Jerusalem above all? Not at all

its skill... Bravo dear Crusader,well put.When needs must it has to be said.And she needs to read and hear it.Every day and night.You were extremely kind to her as it should be.Whether she'd appreciate it,is another matter.What she must realize(like her other colegues of hers,Amira Hass and Gideon Levy equally nasty)she has joined the ranks of those it seems)It will reverberate when she is unaware one of these days,and then what? Well,we'll see ... For your wonderful post thank you Crusader..

Thank you for your sensitivity , If you're against dividing the Holy Land , then you may contact your US representatives at home as well as in Washington D.C. to abolish Road Map , If you're told that they are already committed to it then you may say that such sacrifice is injustice that should not be asked from the Jews , After all it is not as if moslems and arabs hide their hostiles open intentions against the Jewish State , Not only arabs should promote and be pressured to promote the denazification of their culture , but arabs have also the possibilities to bring back their death messengers into their states from the Holy Land , If for example Saudia spend $20 billions on weapons while they have US and Brits to protect them , figure out then how much more money and incentives the oil rich Gulf States arabs may lure with their death messengers into their states from the Holy Land, Such sacrifice may be asked from them for peace , If you say that it is ethnic cleansing and apartheid , then it is exactly what they are doing against us also by exploiting our democracy and liberties wich we must protect , defend and develop and not be handicaped with thru such Road Map manipulative and coercive pressure , Will common sense ever prevail , ?

Ruth, Jerusalem belongs to the Jews through the Abrahamic covenant. Look what happened to Bethlehem. You can expect no less if it falls into non-Jewish hands in part or completely.

Ms. Meisels, I hate to have to sound so harsh. But do you even live anywhere NEAR the nation of Israel? I admit I don't live in Israel either. But I am aware of reality. Ms. Meisels, when even Evangelical Christians like myself start to listen to the ideologies of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane; that should give you a hint that more and more people DO NOT want to see Jerusalem divided or Israel's sovreignty compromised. In other words, Christian making pilgrimages and Jewish families visiting the Western Wall and celebrating Bar/Bat Mitzvahs shouldn't have to worry about Qassam & Katyusha rockets being rained down on them. As a Christian, I'm obliged to forgive. But please, please reconsider your above statements. I wish blessings for you, and part of those blessings include increase in wisdom for you.

The la w of life is enough to choose who is self-mastering oneself as responsible and adult ; Jews do it, Muslims not yet. This is enough to decide Jerusalem must keep being to Jews, not to official (like hamas) or "smiling" djihadists (like Abbas)

"There is also much revisionisms mainly by anti-Zionists about the bombings in Iraq. It is not clear who the perpetrators were." It is all but certain that the bombers were members of the pro-Nazi "al Istiqlal" party, many of them officers within the Iraqi army itself, which is why the Iraqi government was in a sweat to convict and hang innocent Jewish leaders to cover it up. They came up with a white elephant, a small cache of arms which had been provided by the Haganah to Jews in Iraq in the wake of the Farhud pogroms in case of another massacre. The grenades used in anti-Jewish attacks, by contrast, were of the Iraqi army issue type. The Shemtov synagogue was a registration point for Jews preparing to emigrate to Israel; that's why it was targeted by Arab Nationalist terror groups. One of the critically wounded attested that the grenade was thrown from an Arab house across the street. How do anti-Zionists explain the daily events of this nature (magnified) in Iraq today?

"I do understand that Iraqi Jews wanted to leave especially after the bombings in Baghdad that were carried out by Zionists in order to encourage Jews to leave." This is a lie, as you well know. These bombings of synagogues and other Jewish targets were carried out by Iraqi army officers associated with the pro-Nazi "al Istiklal" party, and innocent Jews were hanged to cover up the crime. If I am wrong, then who bombed the Sammarra mosque, and so many other shrines? Was it the Zionists too? Your posts carry the foul putrid stench of evil lies and slander. It is nauseating.

Surface yesterday Eli hello You say and I quote you are an Iraqi Jew. Well, my Israeli niece is married to one,and you should see the extented family's offspring with such good looks!All gorgeous looking,even some with blond hair. Comment on why you do not allways agree with some of my thoughts...okay I don't mind in the slightest Eli,you are still one of my favourites.There is also Brant which I like very much and recognize his by the address as I do yours. p/s Haaretz please let Eli read this.You did not put out my response to him yesterday.shame on you!

Marlene(are you still You have your spurious and hate filled ideas, I have mine which come from the heart of a patriotic Jew,who believes in the survival of Israel.And yes I dare to pin a medals on our Israelis.They are not only worthy,but deserve it Please desist in denigrating Israel with your hateful accsusations,you seem to find repugnant. Pray tell what is repugnant,and what atrocities are you referring? If you need to accuse,look into the atrocities commited by the Arabs.But naturally you conveniently forget to mention. And no,I do not connect all Jews to Israel(so you madam are one I would not wish within a yard near our Israel)You would simply polute it. Now go and cool off

The moment that this Kadima Gov't say , a pal state is an Israeli interest , they definitely are in urgent need of a good psychiatrist , whether "enlightenement" or not , whether "global" or not , and that relate to your quote "when Anti-Christ comes, many orthodox-Jews will take him for the "real" thing and will thus be led astray. So beware!" , Aware we must be that whoever or whatever this anti-christ is , whether a person or a group of persons , whether a state or a group of states , whether a set of intiatives or plans , whether policies or ideals and isms , It certainly is diabolic evil disguised under sheep clothes, isms portrayed as fashion of the day plocies , that funds Fatha-hamas that want to destroy Israel , instead of redirecting those funds to Israelis minds contributing to worlwide life quality improvement thru groundbreaking discovery in the field of artificial intelligence or parkinson disease ,ect... And this brings me back to my previous post in wich i spoke about the Joseph` House as first defense , Wich is to say that as sound may be the Israel` moral political mainstream order , the Israelis responsibles for such situation must be held accountable against such a reverse of earth moral poles and costly price mainly in terms of precious lives , No wonder the world witness the sort of Virginia hi-tech tragedy , For not only such such a reverse of earth moral poles and costly price will lead to an other situation also with a costly price thru the 2nd and final deliverer from Judah` House as spoken in my previous post , But such situations and costly price could be avoided by unambiguously rejecting the said 'Israeli interest" coerced against Israel will, The alternative to avoid such dreadful situations is possible as said in my previous post for than we'll be a nation of merit filled with G'D Spirit and the redemption is awarded by G'D Himself . The situation as is now portray us not as a nation of merit but as walking zombies led to a national scale holocaust offering , as we gradually have experienced and in particular increasingly since the desasters of the Oslo Accords and as if not enough , like totally blind stupid zombies thru the Gaza Disengagement blunders and again as if not enough we hear 'or 2 states solution or Israel is done for' , complete wackos , They really definitely are in urgent need of a good psychiatrist , No other state in the world who is right in his mind would have done that , it is double standard taken against Israel , under coercive pressure of fabricated pretexts of humanitarian aid and rights to murderers and their mafia senders ,especially when the mafia senders let them rot in low life concentration camps in their arabs lands , Fatha-Hamas and co. should go back to the arid desert holes they come from instead of us to see our political , civil and religious rights , daily violently abused , violated as these mercenaries are hired , funded , trained .armed and ordered to undermine and handicap the developement of our Jewish National Home , and to oppose our legit zionism enterprise in our historic lands of Israel , We need not this Meisel` column reversing earth moral poles

From a smile to a thankful tear, what a day. God is good!!!

Bye for now...

Give me a real news site and maybe I'll applaud your efforts to cite sources. But you also have to think. By the way, what about the fate of the Palestinians in other Arab states, such as Lebanon, where the Palestinians remain refugees and act as a destabilizing force? Your garbage doesn't work here. You're quick to throw the typical labels around (i.e. Israel is racist) and deliberately ignore the sheer freedom of speech and freedom of political assembly they enjoy far more than in most countries of their Arab brethren. How else do you have Arab Israelis who openly refuse to recognize the state of Israel without fear of retaliation? Bringing up one Israeli politician like Lieberman does not counter the overwhelming number of Palestinian and other Arab public figures who call for Israel's destruction. Is that the best that you can do? A fool like you is just a fool.

I applaud your attempts to educate her, but she is beyond correction. Clearly, there are parallels in her life. She is a Jew who rejects Judaism, and a humanist who rejects humanism when it comes to the Jews. Detect a pattern here?

I agree with the Scriptures and with your opinions. As for the Messiah, I believe as some Rabbis have explained, this refers to the Messianic Times of global enlightenement, which I believe can be achieved. Whether there will actually be a person called Messiah; that remains to be seen. In the Nostradamus however it is mentioned that when Anti-Christ comes, many orthodox-Jews will take him for the "real" thing and will thus be led astray. So beware! Israel is now, in my opinion, unravelling and the only solution would be to return back to square one, to save Israel, but it would provide such a measure, I dare not even say out loud...it is so horrible. Our only hope is the Pals' poor behaviour, which should be let unbehindered destroy them, because they are self-destructive by their nature. Therefore we and the world should stop supporting them, because without these crutches, they would and will collapse. They have no skills and no ingeniousity to survive on their own.

"As for the Palestinian "right of return," why don`t you ask the Arab states why they refuse to integrate the Palestinians into their own societies?" Yeah see: Jordanian Government to Build Housing Units for 500 Palestinian Families http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20071215141122919 80% of Palestinian refugees in Jordan ARE integrated into the society, yet they would not even be there had Israel not displaced them with their violent militias in the early years. "The funny thing is that Arab Israelis enjoy all the rights as Jews in Israel." The really funny thing is how almost everything I have seen you write does not hold up to factual scrutiny. Israeli racism against Arabs living in Israel just made the news. You must have missed it. Also that smooth move by Olmert to bring in Avigdor Lieberman also further polarized Israeli society and of course the posts here from Arab hating Israeli's only bear out the fact that Israeli's as a country simply detest Arabs and want them gone.

I enjoy reading your posts. You are a pistol!!! Keep well and keep it up! Eli

about CHOICES. The CHOICES were either to leave, renounce citizenship or stay under oppressive conditions. So distinguishing between German and Iraqi CHOICES is splitting hairs. There is also much revisionisms mainly by anti-Zionists about the bombings in Iraq. It is not clear who the perpetrators were. What is clear is that the lot of the Jews deteriorated after the 1941 Rashid Ali pogroms and continued to get worse after the creation of Israel(see my post #193 to Yaakov Sullivan). Injustice in any form disturbs me very much. I can not however forget that as a minority, we have been the focus of injustice and obscene cruelties for centuries and had to escape our homelands constantly over the past 2,000 years, many of us several times over. Ask the Iraqi Jews who escaped from Iraq and settled in Iran, and then had to escape from Iran three decades later.

After rejecting the U.S. proposals at Camp David, Yasser Arafat initiated what the Palestinians called the Al-Aqsa Intifada. In its earliest stages, it began with rock attacks by Palestinian mobs situated on top of the Temple Mount against Jewish worshippers praying at the Western Wall below, on the day before the Jewish holy day of Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year. The Western Wall area had to be evacuated as it became completely covered with stones. Moreover, since September 2000, the Muslim Waqf closed off the Temple Mount entirely from any archeological oversight by the Israel Antiquities Authority; some 13,000 tons of rubble were removed from the Temple Mount by the Waqf that included archeological remnants from the First and Second Temple periods, so that new underground mosques could be completed. These remains were dumped in city waste sites. The complete disregard that the Waqf demonstrated toward the pre-Islamic ancient Jewish heritage of Jerusalem was reminiscent of the behavior of the Taliban in Afghanistan during 2001 toward the pre-Islamic Buddhist presence in the Bamian Valley. Continuing Palestinian attacks against Jewish holy sites in Shkhem (Joseph`s Tomb), Jericho, and Rachel`s Tomb bordering Bethlehem only reinforced the view among Israelis that the holy sites of Jerusalem could only be protected under continued Israeli sovereignty. Unfortunately, there was increasing evidence that mainstream Palestinian spokesmen ultimately rejected any compromise at all; thus Faysal al-Husseini declared in March 2001: "We may lose or win [tactically] but our eyes will continue to aspire to the strategic goal, namely, to Palestine from the river to the sea." A month earlier, Salim Za'anun, the Chairman of the Palestine National Council, stated that the PLO Covenant, calling for Israel`s destruction, was never changed, despite actions taken in 1996 and 1998, so that it remained in force. Given Israel` fundamental rights in Jerusalem, as well as its recent experiences with the Al-Aqsa Intifada, Israel must continue to preserve Jerusalem as its unified capital under Israel`s exclusive sovereignty. This will not only best protect the interests of the Jewish people in Jerusalem, but also the interests and access of all faiths, as well.

Thank you for your insightful post. We both know the malice that motivates posters like Marlene N. Of course these same people who cry about the Palestinians' human rights have no problem with bigotry and hatred, as long as it's draped in the more politically fashionable dress of antisemitism. They might call it anti-Zionism, but we both know it's antisemitism, all the same.

Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin remained firm on retaining Israeli sovereignty over all of Jerusalem; he told a group of Tel Aviv schoolchildren in mid-1995, during his last year in office: "If they told us that peace is the price of giving up on a united Jerusalem under Israeli sovereignty, my reply would be 'let`s do without peace.' Israeli sovereignty over all of Jerusalem has been at the heart of the Israeli national consensus for years. Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin laid this out in his last Knesset address in October 1995 - Rabin insisted that Israel must retain "a united Jerusalem" . Rabin reflected the views of most Israeli leaders that Israeli sovereignty over all of Jerusalem is the key to a durable peace in a volatile Middle East.

I think the Arabs's rejection of partition was logical. After all, why would Jews reject the partition of Palestine, with most not even coming from there or that part of the world. But even if the "Arabs" were to have blame, that has nothing to do with the inhabitants that already lived there and were forced out, at least most of them. It's time to say that the Jews rejected Res 181 (I do not use the word Israel because Israel is not mentioned). 181 did not call for the eviction of the Arab inhabitants, it also specifically says that all people regardless of religion, etc., would be treated as complete equals, and that those who were there already would be given the option of citizenship in the new state. Israel did what it had intended to do. Get rid of most of the Arab population thinking about future demography and the Jewish character of the state. It was "Israel" who rejected 181 and still does. Time to put Zionist myths in their proper place.

I have read other accounts by Iraqi Jews also, which is not exactly the same. I do understand that Iraqi Jews wanted to leave especially after the bombings in Baghdad that were carried out by Zionists in order to encourage Jews to leave. The fact is though that in Germany, Jews were stripped of their citizenship under the Nuremberg Laws in 1935 while still remaining in Germany while Iraqi Jews were still given a CHOICE. Those who left renounced their citizenship. Palestinian refugees were not given a choice of whether to remain in Israel and become (second-class) citizens, although this is called for under Resolution 181, however, most of them were forced out or expelled and murdered on the way while their property was confiscated by foreigners who mostly came from elsewhere in the world. I suppose as an Iraqi Jew, this must disturb you greatly.

I'm not surprised that you support the arabs fabricated political claims , you do not content yourself with arabs violations of our religious rights and Holy sites such arabs turning into a mosque the Biblical Joseph` Tomb in Skhem Town , but your support to arabs is comparable to the relationship between Joseph and his brothers to that between the Jewish pioneers in Judea and Samaria and the left wing, The left, too, endangers the settlers, for a supposedly noble cause, just like the brothers of Joseph thought, The left hands over the settlers' communities to the Ishmaelites and says 'we will see now what will become of the settlers dreams of all of the Land of Israel.' . The settlers are jewish pioneers willing to sacrifice for the nation and the land, they are moral people who raise their children on jewish values, morality and sacrifice. This gives rise to envy and hatred, and the hatred is so great that the left does not want to open up and talk to the settlers. However, then as now, G'D's plan is good, Joseph's dreams became reality and so too shall the settler's dreams and that of the complete Land of Israel.

I'm not surprised nor shocked by your posts , Quote " Israel has chosen her own ways and is putting her trust "in flesh", in the American presidents and state secretaries. THERE NO LONGER IS ROOM for G-D in Israel, whom the Israelis simply have evicted! " , Based on our prophets scriptures , your quote means that there would be 2 Messiahs , the first will be from Joseph` House , and a generation and half later the 2nd and final will be from Judah` House. Both events will see death and destruction before redemption , But if we want to avoid such dreadful scenario , We're told to be a nation of merit wich means that redemption will be thru G'D Himself if we abide by all of His commandments , For the noun of Messiah is the Spirit of G'D` , Gen1:2 "...and the spirit of G'D was hovering over the face of the water" The Midrash Rabbah explain "The spirit of G'D hovered" -- this is the spirit of Messiah . It is the reason that , Gen28:16 "And Jacob awakened from his sleep, and he said, "Indeed, the Lord is in this place, and I did not know it." For If we stay alseep like zombies then we cannot know G'D , But if we seek G'D , if we want to know G'D then we must practice , keep and observe all of G'D commandments , then we'll be a nation of merit and the redemption will be thru G'D Himself . As it stands now , dangers from within and from outside hoover above the State of the Jews , The question is thus what actions are we willing to take and what cost in term of lives are willing to pay in order to solve the dangers ? , That is if we want to solve them by ourselves without being a nation of merit , For if we believe that some of the dangers may be solved by surrendering the biblical hills , Jerusalem , Temple Mount , Golan Heights , Shabaa farms and heavens know what else , then we indeed are put asleep like zombies , we are led to a gradual holocaust offering on a national scale , If we think that moving abroad may solve the problem , then we for sure will find ourselves facing the antisemite dormant dragon , And if we don't know how to ditinguish to make good decisions then we must follow G'D ways thru Moses Laws , it is the safest bet , instead of adopting those strange gods and deities that come in the form of laws , resolutions , policies , ideals and isms portrayed thru arabs and Road Map skullduggery as fashion of the day policies and hammered 24/7 by the leftism school of thought and subversive activism but incompatible with Israel`moral political mainstream order , P.S : to the Haaretz censorship room , there seems to be a technical issue with Bradley Burston section 'a place in hell', a button click on his section opens on a window but cannot scroll down to read ,

The God of heaven will make us prosper, and we his servants will arise and build, but you (other nations) have no portion or right of claim in Jerusalem NEHEMIAH 2:4 Thus says the Lord of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy. And I am very sore displeased with the heathen (nations or gentiles)at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction. Therefor thus says the Lord: I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: My house shall be built in it.... and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem....My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad: and the Lord shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem. ZECHARIAH 1; 14-17 ...Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein: For I says the Lord will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her. ZECHARIAH 2; 4-5.

Jerusalem should be divided; into Israel East and Israel West Jerusalem! end of maynseh! where is King Soloman when we need him?

You dare to pin medals on Israeli society in spite of the atrocities they carry out in their own backyard. That is truly repugnant. Your mistake is that you connect all Jews to Israel, and not all Jews want to be connected to Israel simply because they do not condone racism, or crimes committed against other people collectively because they are not Jews. And by the way, Germany also contributed to the world, such as the person who discovered x-rays, but pray tell, what does that have to do with the atrocities they carried out? Absolutely nothing is the answer.

I'm going to try and cut through the bramble of your hysterical rants. It's hard--you're a nutcase--but I'll try. I never said that going to synagogue makes one a decent person. Just another example of how you twist people's statements and read into them messages that were never there. I mentioned going into a synagogue--something you don't do, despite your remarks to the contrary--because everything you have said about Jewish identity being equal to Nazi race laws is wrong. Where exactly is the racist criteria in determining who is a Jew, when Jews come in all colors and from all backgrounds? As for the Palestinian "right of return," why don't you ask the Arab states why they refuse to integrate the Palestinians into their own societies? The funny thing is that Arab Israelis enjoy all the rights as Jews in Israel. They have a thriving free press that prints their anti-Jewish/anti-Israel smut on a regular basis, and Knesset ministers who do the same. Do you condemn them for refusing to recognize a Jewish state? Where is your outcry there? Do you condemn the rampant racism, tribalism and bigotry that permeates Arab and other Muslim societies that persecute their Christian minorities? Where?s your outcry there? Where?s your outcry when Arabs and Muslims call for the annihilation of the Jewish state? You are no Jew?just a bigot and an anti-Semite hiding under the banner of human rights.

"One cannot serve two masters.Either one or the other.And in their case it is the other." Are you Messianic? I have heard, you Love God and your people. Often I hear the Jewish people using the "tools" Messiah has provided them even if they are not yet ready to say, "these are the words of God" and it does my heart good. What ever your faith, I think your energy is awesome.

Teacher/Instruct Your words are verbatim to the numerous times I have expounded the same.And if proof is needed,the many members of my family are the very descendants of those early pioneers who made the desert bloom,when the Holy Land was not only neglected but also malaria ridden swamps which they cleared and made the place habitable.The Arabs living there,were quite content with their small patches of land and their donkeys for company.I am not being unjust here,but if truth be told it is JUST THAT. You and I know it,but the Arabs tend to look back of their period during the Crusaders AND WISH TO TURN BACK TO CLOCK AND TAKE "ANDALUSIA" AND THE REST OF SPAIN AS WELL. Well,living in the 7th century is not a viable option for them and until they come forward to the 21st nothing will change in their mentality. A despairing thought.... are the ones you

Ordinary Israeli And after what you said which is correct,and applies,isn't it odd when the Muslims/Arabs pray toward Meca and turn their bottoms to Jerusalem.If that is not odd what is They can bang their heads against the wall as much as they wish,but facts are just that!No connection of Our Holy Jerusalem being just Jewish. One cannot serve two masters.Either one or the other.And in their case it is the other. Your reference to the Quran,no mention of Jerusalem is proof enough.The only reason they do mention it now is because at some point a few centuries ago our land was conquered.(as so many before did)and during the Mamelukes they build that ONION AND THEY COME WITH THEIR FAIRY TALES OF MUHAMED AND HIS "FLYING DONKEY" Simple as that...

BBSnews No I will not jump up and down and I am not confused,but perhaps you are. Recently published research in the field of molecular genetics -- the study of DNA sequences -- indicates that Jewish populations of the various Diaspora communities have retained their genetic identity throughout the exile. Despite large geographic distances between the communities and the passage of thousands of years, far removed Jewish communities share a similar genetic profile. This research confirms the common ancestry and common geographical origin of world Jewry. Jewish men from communities which developed in the Near East -- Iran, Iraq, Kurdistan, Yemen -- and European Jews have very similar, almost identical genetic profiles. "Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora." (M.F. Hammer, Proc. Nat'l Academy of Science, May 9, 2000)

jerusalem has for millenia been linked to the jewish people, it only in the past half decade that 'palestinians' have tried to link themselves to it too. to divide jerusalem, especially with people that support the killing of our people is baffling. jersualem is the jewish people, its our eternal capital, our heart, where our 2 temples stood, where Hashem rested. giving part of it away is not an option.

CHGODMK I'll take the latter,and attack her on that. Wonderful post my friend.Just because we care for all our Jewish brethren they think we do not have feelings for others who suffer equally in other parts of the world. If proof needed how about when any catastrophy occurs in any part of the globe,Israel is allways first at the front offering help and succour to those who are in need.We even offered help to the Iranians and they childishly refused.So much for humanism on their part.They prefer to die a puerile behaviour,rather than accept help. BUT!What comes to mind is the many patented medicines provided to the world by Jews,so many that it would take reams to put here.One I can mention without having to refer in my documents is THE POLIO VACCINE.Would they have rejected it at the time of the Shah?doubt it.In any case it is still in use by the whole world and thanks to JEWS. BARUCH HASHEM

Self-hating Jews are not Jews who hate Judiaism, but people who dare to speak out against what Israel does just as "self-hating Germans" who dared to speak out. The term self-hating Jew" is used as opposed to "self-hating Israeli" because Israel says it is a state of the Jews, as I'm sure you well know so essentially criticizing Israel amounts to criticizing Jews which is exactly what Israel wants so continuously labeling anything as being "anti-semitic" or "self-hating Jews" can cover the real issues.

Who are those modern gods Israel today is worshipping? To begin with: there are NO G-D fearing politicians in Israel today! Instead of asking for wisdom to guide their people and deal with her enemies, Israel is asking America's advice! Israel has replaced her LIVING G-D with America! Even Rosner asked in his column the other day: should Am Jews have a say in the Israeli politics? What about asking G-D's opinion? It feels awful to think just how badly we keep hurting G-D's feelings, especially when Israel keeps sending clear messages to G-D: "we don't trust you, keep away"! From G-D's point of view, I definately understand, we are losing Israel and Jerusalem! We the Israel are making fun of our own G-D, why would He feel concerned at all, Israel has chosen her own ways and is putting her trust "in flesh", in the American presidents and state secretaries. THERE NO LONGER IS ROOM for G-D in Israel, whom the Israelis simply have evicted!

My previous post on the Nuremberg Laws was directed to you. I think you've shown your true face here. Your response had nothing to do with what I said. First, yes I have been inside a synogogue and do you think that going to one really makes someone a Jew or a decent person. Does goingto church make someone a decent Christian or person. Does Israel base having the right of return on what you just threw up. You don't have to go to a temple, you can hate Judiaism, but as long as you meet the racist criteria of who is Jew, then one is a Jew and has all rights to automatic citizenship to Israel. And if one has no rights, and then converts, that person has more rights than people who are non-Jews and have the right to return there or who are already living there. Obviously, if this what you support, for me, it diminishes your resume that you cited.

The fact still remains that racist criteria was used to determine who was a Jew in order to strip them of their citizen ship in Nazi Germany such as for instance having three Jewish grandparents. Israel uses similar criteria to determine who has the right to automatic citizenship using similar criteria. The fact that someone can actually convert to being a Jew and then have far more rights over someone else who is not is even more disgraceful. We are not speaking here of just converting to another faith in ordinary terms which many people do. We are speaking about how a country bases the rights of people using racist criteria. Doing unto others as others have done unto you deserves no merit in my book.

The II Book of Chronicles, 7:19 "IF you(Israel)turn away from me and forsake the Commandments and statutes, I(G-D)have set before you, and go and serve other gods and worship them, then I will tear the Israelilites from the Land I have given to them, and I will reject from My presence this Temple that I have consecrated for my name and make it a proverb and a byword among all the nations. As for this Temple, now so exalted, all who pass by will be astounded; they will whistle and say, "why has Yahweh treated this country and this Temple like this" and the answer will be, because they forsook Yahweh, the G-D of their ancestors, who brought them out of the Land of Egypt, and they adopted other gods and worshipped them and served them; that is why He has brought all these disasters on them".

I am a Christian, even I know Jerusalem is Jewish! G-d did not promise it to any one else except the Jews. Should other religions be allowed to visit or even live in the City of G-d? Yes, of course, but under Israeli rule, it's biblical and correct. Remember, the G-d of Israel is still alive and well, he who touches Jerusalem touches the apple of His eye... ever wonder what He is thinking?

I'm proud to read a very sensible article like yours, you certainly tried to make good sence for those who are blind by FANATISM. Reading, some of the posters, I can see how hard is your tasks, but have no fear there are more sensible individuals about who can appreciate your inner feelings towards a fair and equitable end to this long conflict.Keep up your GOOD WORK.

If only we could have some more" NO GREED "person like you we will all be living in a PEACEFUL WORLD today. With time and after long sustained miseries, the UNBELIEVERS in Peace and coexistance will finally see the light at the end of the tunnel.Good Luck Esther.Shalom

"if you stop taking the "queens" to work and actually look at reality you will find the problem is arab hatred !" With every post you prove that you are stark raving mad and no possible contributor to a just solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Here's a clue, I do not support Israeli terrorism of the captive occupied populace it controls nor do I support the indiscriminate firing of rockets by Palestinian factions at Israeli civilians. I support a peaceful end to the conflict with Israel getting itself back on its own land in line within the framework of the Arab initiative. From you, the reader sees childish schoolyard antics. Good job Vic, you are really helping Israeli's look civilized with your weird rantings.

Where does Jerusalem appear in the Koran? When was Jerusalem ever Holy to Palestinian Arab Refugees? Mufti Haj Al Amin Al Huseini, a house guest of Hitler, called for Jihad against Jews in the name of Holy Jerusalem. Perhaps this is what Ruth Meisels is talking about. She has taken in fact the PLO and Hamas position on Jerusalem. Muslims pray only towards Mecca and Medina. Historically Arab empires only were interested in Jerusalem as a rejection of Jewish and Christian claims.

Ladies and Gentlemen- this woman demostrates how detached a person can become from herself, her people, her religion and her land. Can she honestly understand what survival represents in one's life? I would be interested in seeing what is important in her life, what values her parents instilled in her and what meaningful lives she has put on this earth. She indeed will make a wonderful columnist for the Haaretz "school room of doom". Ruth, put a little "Aish" under your tuches and realize why Jerusalem is important to Jews!

How do we know that the Arabs never owned this land? They did't give a damn for it! They never planted a single forest,on the contrary,they cut down trees to make charcoal.They only planted a few olive trees for family usage(the vast number of olive trees,that remained were trees planted before we left) Fact is only the JEWS who returned after their long absence,and found their home desolate,and un ruins,started building & planting forests once again. The ARABS, from all around our land,seeing an opportunity to eke out a living,came & squatted on our land.Only the JEWS made the land flourish once again. Now that their numbers have swollen disproportionally(also due to a stupid gov.policy,they are claiming something that never belonged to these nomad tribes) Why go so far back into history:see how the FOOLISH ARABS are behaving in GAZA.Killing one another!And of course teaching hatred.To those who can't live with us,I say,GO just GO,Go to...

GIVE UP EAST JERUSALEM. IT'S BELONGS TO ARABS ANYWAY!

Who care for the Real World Mr Lincoln ? Only those who wants to Eat,Sleep & Die. Every enimal dose that. Every thief, dictator, fool, arms dealer, hypocrate,traitor,gangaster,the Lincolns only by name. Who care for the Real World only the Shameless & Liers. Who wants the Real world only those who don't enjoy love,devotion, & prayers. Who live in the real world only those who grow fat,and feed themselves with embezzlements. Defend your Real World Mr Lincoln you are born fo each other & thank you very much.

Well what can we expect from Joseph some biblical clap trap about Jerusalem. Anyway back to reality. We are talking about Jerusalem in the year 2007 not some fairy tale from the book of fairy tales which has no relevance what so ever. East Jerusalem will be the capital of Palestine !

The only way to ensure that all of Jerusalem is open to Jews, Muslims, Christians and everyone else is to declare it as part of no State but as a new kind of City State under international auspices governed by equal representation of all those who live there and overseen and guaranteed by the UN or similar.Jerusalem is once again slipping out of hands of the Jews and into the hands of others. A once again divided city will be the result and tension and strife will be the the daily menu. The only way to ensure that large chunks of Jerusalem do not become out of bounds to Jews is to place the whole city out of the hands of both Jews and Muslims, however painful this may be, the consequences of not doing this will be far worse. If this doesent happen, then the muslims will not cease until they have driven the Jews (and eventually the Christians as well) out of the city. Act now, Jerusalem, before its too late. Winner takes all doesent work for ever.

if you stop taking the "queens" to work and actually look at reality you will find the problem is arab hatred ! the dna question doesnt arise as hatred can arise in people who have remarkably similar dna as in families !

Jerusalem We pray for you in sunrise & sunset. Jerusalem We remember you in all our prayers. Jerusalem We Celebrate you in tears & laughters. Jerusalem We Love you in in Joy & Sorrow. Jerusalem We Kinss your Walls new & runis. Jerusalem We Live and die for you. Jerusalem We Celebrate you in Songs Joy&Sadness Jerusalem We Wept for on the Rivers of Babylon & the ovens of Auschwitz. Jerusalem We Promise you our love eternal Jerusalem We Face you when we pray and we are buried. Jerusalem We Give you our Oath will fight for till the day we die. *Jerusalem may the G-d of Ibraham breaks the arms of those who harm you,take you from us or disgrace your holiness -Amen.

Esther, bless your beautiful heart and spirt. May your light shine brightly into the darkness.

Obviously, sending suicide bombers to blow up civilians is for you an act of heroism. In your eyes, it is also heroic to fire Qassams into civilian population. Even Amnesty International considers both acts to be war crimes and crimes against humanity. Hamas has not done a single heroic act. Hamas incites its children to murder, represses women and treats them as chattle, murders members of the opposition, and has instituted a totalitarian entity in Gaza. Only a person devoid of all morality would consider Hamas heroic.

posters are overly critical. How is Danite " hateful of Israel, the settlers, the right, the religious and the Left"? There's always been a consistent argument by Danite and others here for a two-state solution to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. There's logic to strengthen President Abbas over Hamas and the contributing countries of financially supporting Abbas attests to this.

...dont waste ur time here; use ur time effectively... None of my time is wasted. I love your responds.

Jerusalem ueber Alles? It has a ring to it.

Jerusalem is not a state of mind. It exists. From 1948 to 1967 Jews and Jewish places were cleansed from old Jerusalem by Arab Hashemite occupiers. This occupation still exists in the form of the waqf who bar Jews from even standing still in front of the Temple Mount. For this dhimmi, the destruction of synagoges and Jewish cementaries is an 'abstraction'. The PA's position that there was no Temple Mount is another 'abstraction'. All Arab claims are 'abstractions'. Jewish claims are 'trouble makers'. Ruth Meisels would be very happy in a pre-1948 world. Either here or in Europe. She ignores history and is dooming everyone to repeat it.

and experience in the matter, "the rest of the story" which you conveniently omitted is that Jews were FORCED in one way or another to leave. Their properties were confiscated and they left with the clothes on their back. Those that were smuggled out over the border with Iran did manage to take some of their valuables with them unless they were robbed along the way. The same situation repeated itself with Jews who wanted to leave Iran thirty years later. Most fled through the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Along the way they were robbed and in some cases murdered. Omitting part of a story to mislead is the same as telling a lie.

You MA CHERIE are no mental giant and a midget when it comes to the ME. I guess while being Ben Gurions side kick you learned NOTHING. Even the Affiar with Dino the swiss Cheese guy has f]gone south. Stop your hatred of Israel ,the settlers, the right, the religious and the Left. Leave behind your Communism and Anarchism. CHGODMK is right , you are an ignoramus and truly pathetic.

Thank you Ruth for your sensible words. Jerusalem does not belong to Israel. It is a city sacred to Christians, Muslims and Jews. May it be a symbol of reconciliation and Devine Love upheld by all three religions and not a bone of contention to be ripped apart like the child before Solomon's court.

May be you would like for your research in the Israeli-Arab conflict to get in touch with Jennifer Griffin from Fox News , she was the Jerusalem Bureau Chief of the network till sometimes after the Leb War 2 , , , , I had the chance to look at her work , i think she is fair , balanced and objectf , , , , There is a lot of info in the web about the conflict , search for Mideast links at the institutes , or just type keywords, , , , Meanwhile have this steak , , , , http://www.mythsandfacts.com/Conflict/mandate_for_palestine/MandateN2%20-%2010-29-07-English.pdf, , , you may want to check, , , http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html, , , , http://www.jcpa.org/index.htm, , , , http://www.jcpa.org/, , , Its all about Israel uncommon power and freedom , politics and leverage Enjoy ,

"Did you know that the criteria used to determine who is Jewish is somewhat similar to that the Nazis used in the Nuremberg Laws " M Madame, Did you know that the criteria you dislike precede Nazis Nuremberg Laws by at least 2000+ years? You deal with ancient people with ancient sources of civilization - your disrespect humiliates only you.

Stupidity, ignorance, miscomprehension are not eliminated by repetitive talk. Its time u went somewhere, to a shrink or a university , to learn some logic and history. U r ignorant , u r illogical. But u talk a heck of a lot thinking that this compensates. In short , dont waste ur time here; use ur time effectively.

As you well know, it was the Arab side that rejected in 1948 UN resolution for 2 state solution, and instead Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Saudia, Iran, and Palestinian fighters invaded Israel. Now after all the wards and all the damage that's beed none, these same Arabs "accept" the 1948 UN resolution. Don't you think they deserve some blame in this? Or are you so blind by your hatred that you see only one side?

that genetic stuff,you come out with the silliest statement I have heard!Arab culture is patrilineal,jewish is matrilineal,so you cannot track DNA ? What has social custom to do with DNA & biology?Or should we start talking to you about storks & such things?

"draw ALL men to Hinself" You see in the Bible it says [written by the very one, Peter [Rock] whom Messiah chose to build His Church], "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 ANY is ANY my friend.

""DNA proof" Just let then go on they will never convince you,me or any intelligent person with a modicum of self worth." Wow. Do not try and confuse Kathy with facts and science. Above all else, Kathy despises Arabs and anyone who dare speak out in favor of anything remotely Arab. Gotcha. OK. I'm guessing then that you won't be part of the solution, you'll just be the screeching anti-Arab harridan even long after a just peace is achieved. Suffice it to say, it is trivial to find studies on Jewish DNA that also examine and compare to non-Jewish DNA in sources such as the National Institutes of Health. The science is out there, and if you got your head out of the sand you could use it to your advantage; at least in this argument. I suspect you would rather focus on your hatred for Arabs instead of actually getting a factual education in DNA science though.

"When Iraqi Jews were permitted to leave Iraq around" PERMITTED? Forced out would be more like it. Staying was not an option if they valued their life and their property.

I know you are not in a position to agree with what I have said regarding Islam. I do want you to understand, I do not say what I do out of malice for the Arab people. On the contrary. I have worshipped together with Arabs and Jews as one through Messiah. This kind of Joy I pray for all. And I believe with all my heart is most pleaseing to OUR creator God.

"Did you know that the criteria used to determine who is Jewish is somewhat similar to that the Nazis used in the Nuremberg Laws to strip Jews of their citizenship. I doubt whether that would bother you." This is a bold face lie, and one the reveals that 1) you are no Jew, and 2) you have never set foot inside a synagogue. If you were and if you had, you would realize that people convert to Judaism on a regular basis. White, brown, black, east Asian. You would see black and Filipino Jews, if you walked into my Conservative synagogue in Chicago. On the South Side of Chicago resides an African American synagogue, and yes, they are recognized as Jews by other Jews. Issues surrounding conversion and Halacha have nothing to do with race or skin color. And when someone converts to Judaism, they are perceived as a Jew in the eyes of Jewish law, nothing more and nothing less.

There are more than enough Jews who speak out in support of human rights, including myself. One need only to review my past messages demanding official Congressional reconition of the Armenian genocide, or my support for ending the genocide in Darfur, to realize that I am no monster. What makes self-hating Jews stand out like a wart is the fact that, when you get to the bottom of it, they hate Judaism. This comes to forefront when they show their seething hatred for the religious Jews, especially the settlers. I believe in a two-state solution, but not at the expense of a Jewish state named Israel or a united Jerusalem under its sovereignty. Self-hating Jews would sell off the settlers to camps in a second. Their behavior towards the settlers would parallel the Jews who sold other Jews out to the Nazis during WWII. Caring about human rights and speaking out should not nullify a Jew's concern for other Jews or the fate of the Jewish state.

It gives me no pleasure to have to call Jews Self Hating Antisemites.( I like Cipora but that does not mean that she gets a free pass). But the Jews are worse than the Gentile variety of Antisemites and I call them Fashion Jews as they follow the prevailing fashion of Jew or Israel hating. I posted a article in David Dukes KKK paper that Ruth Meisels has written and someone like Cipora who trembles and purports to fight anti-Semitism did not even bother replying or show her displeasure. In the past Cipora told me that she is not a Patriot and her defense of Jerusalem and the Expulsion Issue is very wishy, washy.. KUTW and Klaudia (both not Jewish) have a much better record as does Jeff Northridge and they are not even Jewish.. So what makes her different from her ally Danite . Slow motion suicide is still suicide and Cipora, through her Humanism and equivalence is in fact in agreement . Trembling is just not ENOUGH. It is not an Academic exercise but a life and death situation where one wrong move spells the death of Israel and many Jews. As for Jane and Tzfonit(Bracha) I have nothing to apologize for as this is the plain truth irrespective of whether they live or lived in Israel. Amira Hass cannot be forgiven just because she is Israeli. To discuss in private HANEM52003@yahoo.ca PS; When will you be in Toronto for that Corned beed. Guaranteed best anywhere bar none.

"They are doing it heroically," It is not noble virtue to detonate a human bomb on a bus that is transporting Jewish families with children on a return trip from the Western Wall. That is depravity. Accolades to the Clinton Administration for designating them a "terrorist organization".

Tis a pity that you have to use the holocaust to make a point that has no relevance here. Perhaps you Germans must show Jews how righteous (LOL) you were to teach the Jews lessons from that era. You have just shown that you stillbelieve in that Jews must be subservient and nothing else. Stop your antisemitic charade-NO ONE IS BUYING.

"The arabs skullduggery initiative endorsed by the Road Map is exploited as pretext for such arab goal , , ," Wow. You're stark raving nuts aren't you? I read your other posts and I can come to no other conclusion. Some of the other people around here are ate up with the hatred and they sure drink the Israel as a victim Kool-aid but you are in a class by yourself. I'll offer you the same deal that I offered Gabe1, although he ran from it like a scalded dog. Simply write a factual and well-sourced article about the conflict and I will publish it under your byline. By factual, I of course mean that you cannot use a mythical religion based "right" to land. There is no such right. On the other hand I would be delighted to publish an article from you that explains according to today's law, accepted internationally, that Israel owns all the land "between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea." That would be quite an accomplishment for you.

It gives me no pleasure to have to call Jews Self Hating Antisemites.( I like Cipora but that does not mean that she gets a free pass). But the Jews are worse than the Gentile variety of Antisemites and I call them Fashion Jews as they follow the prevailing fashion of Jew or Israel hating. I posted a article in David Dukes KKK paper that Ruth Meisels has written and someone like Cipora who trembles and purports to fight anti-Semitism did not even bother replying or show her displeasure. In the past Cipora told me that she is not a Patriot and her defense of Jerusalem and the Expulsion Issue is very wishy, washy.. KUTW and Klaudia (both not Jewish) have a much better record as does Jeff Northridge and they are not even Jewish.. So what makes her different from her ally Danite . Slow motion suicide is still suicide and Cipora, through her Humanism and equivalence is in fact in agreement . Trembling is just not ENOUGH. It is not an Academic exercise but a life and death situation where one wrong move spells the death of Israel and many Jews. As for Jane and Tzfonit(Bracha) I have nothing to apologize for as this is the plain truth irrespective of whether they live or lived in Israel. Amira Hass cannot be forgiven just because she is Israeli. To discuss in private HANEM52003@yahoo.ca

"equal rights for ALL" As you have repeatedly vocalized support for Palestinian "resistance" groups, that is, Palestinian terrorist groups, I'd think you'd rather be hoping you can soon move to be ruled by those freedom resisting groups in Gaza. The articles in the Western press where Palestinian civilians are rounded up by Hamas only to have nails pounded into their calves sure make for engaging reading.

who is this idiot who seeks to undermine the necessity of keeping a united Yerushalayim as Israel's capital? There are no comparisons with "other faiths" for whom the centrality of Yerushalayim has NOT been the focus of their prayers, but only in recent times has become a useful political football to be kicked around. How many reminders do people like Ms Meisels need of the inability of Arabs of whatever denomination to afford Jews full access and recognition of all the holy Jewish sites? And has there been any open acknowledgement by any significant surrounding-Arab head of state in modern times of that centrality of Yerushalayim to the Jewish people and the importance of others giving to the Jews that recognition that Ms Meisels is so willing to give Israel's enemies? Please show us one - just one - or shut up.

Quote " Not too mention the promise of a constitution by October 1, 1948 " ,..... Israel was attacked the day of Israel Declaration of Independence , the war goes on till today and for many years to come ,...... Unlike the arabs who keep on coming back , Brit admitted its defeat by the US and the Brits did not came back ........ US Declaration of Independence from the Pharaoh Brit Claws was in 1776.,The US Constitution was adopted on 1787 and not a word about Washington D.C ....... As for the rest of your post , , ,read my previous posts #288 , #290 and #292 , , , But in general if the US Constitution is a sort of a guide that may be changed , then figure out how Israel` enemies would twist and exploit an Israel Constitution to advance their political goal , , , , , It is what arabs now do to adavance their political goal against Israel thru their civil and religious rights , , , , Political rights to self-determination as a polity for Arabs are guaranteed by the Mandate for Palestine in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and in Jordan. ..... Israel` enemies exploit anyway any agreement , Oslo Accords and up to enter into quarrels and contentions to advance the arab gradual control of the former palestine region , , , , The arabs skullduggery initiative endorsed by the Road Map is exploited as pretext for such arab goal , , ,

"DNA proof" Just let then go on they will never convince you,me or any intelligent person with a modicum of self worth.And they are WORTH NOTHING,AND YES,THEY GET ALL THEIR INFO'FROM WIKI,OTHER WEBSITES,BOOKS WHICH SRE SPURIOUS AND BARRING GIVING US INDIGESTION THEY ARE BLOODY BORING...YOU THINK AND BELIEVE IN TRUTH?NO,THEY BELIEVE IN ARABS.LET US CALL THEM WHAT THEY ARE:ARABIST BUMS..HOW IS THAT?AND I MEAN IT FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART. P/S SORRY FOR THE CAPS TOO LAZY... AM YISRAEL CHAI!

with a view of the Swiss Alps. :) I am not fond of sand no matter which beach it's on or what it happens to be named. Your insinuation is also noted, and discarded as an unworthy comment.

Ruth Odd that you should have the same name as that one above.Oh well,what's in a name,which yours is a valuable one indeed,especially Biblical Ruth eh? No Jerusalem,then no Israel GOD FORFEND!! I have just popped in for a few minutes seeing it is still running and surprised. Whenever I see Amira hass,and Gideon Levy I tend to run a mile,knowing what their hateful articles will contain. It is as though coming from an Arab mouth/keyboard,rather than Jews.This one is the latest we could've done without...

and certainly doesn't come close to being a mature political party after twenty years. Yes, they are most disgusting using the younger men to do their damned dirty work and dying for the Hamas jackasses.

named for a city in Syria. Heroic? Not really. Evolutionary challenged, for sure. Their immaturity as a political group after twenty years is ridiculous. Those old men have not the capability or the courage to run a government. As for their rally, 300,000 isn't even 1/4 of the population of Gaza. Looks as if not everyone is celebrating their anniversary. They use and abuse their own people and threaten intifada like little kids. And, you are redundant in your reply. I wanted a serious opinion on an article, not little put down games.

Well said...just like decent Germans who dared to speak out in the defense of others (and went to their deaths for doing so) and were known as "self-hating Germans," such is the same for decent Jews (who will not go to their deaths) for speaking out. Personally, I think tis an honor to be labeled a "self-hating Jew" and be in the same rank as those "self-hating Germans."

Why not tell the rest of the story. When Iraqi Jews were permitted to leave Iraq around 1950, they were allowed to do so but had to renounce their citizenship, so in essence, they were not stripped of their citizenship but did it by choice. This was perfect for Israel who were happy for all those who made their way there. On the other hand, we have the Palestinian refugees, the indigenous people of the land, who were stripped of their lands and homes, and also stripped of the right to become citizens of the new state so that anyone who fit the racist criteria of who is Jew according to Israel could come and live there. Did you know that the criteria used to determine who is Jewish is somewhat similar to that the Nazis used in the Nuremberg Laws to strip Jews of their citizenship. I doubt whether that would bother you.

"....In fact, there is no connection in Jewish tradition between sovereignty and sanctity; certainly there is no commandment mandating Jewish political sovereignty in Jerusalem". One can take this "logic" and apply it to the whole of the land of Israel. Is Ruth advocating that Jews can not claim political sovereignty to the land because there is no specific commandment for it?

...but it took you 20 centuries to slaughter them in order FOR YOU... It means Muslims need another 5 centuries to comprehend the "author" and another 6 million Jews, right? AMEN, baby Virgy. PS : God created man, man created Church, Church created Pope, Pope created Hitler, Hitler killed the Jews. Jews killed Jesus, uuppss...Vicious circle.

1Samuel Chap.8:.... 5. And they said to him, "....Now, set up for us a king to judge us like all the nations.".... 7. And the Lord said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people, according to all that they will say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from reigning over them..... 20. And also we shall be like all the nations, and our king will judge us, go forth before us and wage our wars....... 22. And the Lord said to Samuel, "Listen to their voice, and you shall make them a king." ..... However...... 1Samuel Chap.9..... 17. And Samuel saw Saul, and the Lord said to him, "Behold, the man about whom I said to you,This one will rule over My people. "..... All those Samuel verses prove that even if the leftism school of thought activism zealously work on all front to relief the arabs political skullduggery , threats , blackmails and extortions , G'D hand is still the upper one to guide Israel as he did thru Samuel the prophet in choosing the King and the manner of kingship rule ..... The Torah provides Israel with sound counsel , when Israel lacks His Torah, Israel has no understanding that reflect on how one individual or the nation could pursue its enemies, unless it is because imported foreign ideals and isms have sold Israel over...... For foreign ideals and isms , foreign political moral order imported and preached 24/7 by the leftism school of thought is of the vine of Sodom , and of the field of Gemorrah? Israel must win over its enemies lest they claim, The Lord did none of this....... Nevertheless, our enemies sit in judgment...... Deut.32:26...... " I said that I would make an end of them, eradicate their remembrance from mankind."...... Develop Jerusalem , Har Homa , increase and built Jewish outposts and settlements......

Is told in the Book Of Joshua Chap.1:1-9..... 4.From this desert and Lebanon to the great river, the Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites to the great sea westward shall be your boundary...... Israel control and sovereignty over Jerusalem with Judea and Samaria is included and not as Meisel fabricate a moral dilemma by saying "Control over Jerusalem is not included in these commandments" ,..... 6. Be strong and have courage; for you will cause this nation to inherit the land that I have sworn to their ancestors to give to them...... 7. Just be strong and very courageous to observe and do in accordance with all of the Torah that Moses My servant has commanded you. Do not stray therefrom right or left, in order that you succeed wherever you go....... 8. This book of the Torah shall not leave your mouth; you shall meditate therein day and night, in order that you observe to do all that is written in it, for then will you succeed in all your ways and then will you prosper. ...... 9. Did I not command you, be strong and have courage, do not fear and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your G'D is with you wherever you go....... All the above verses prove the connection of sovereignty with sanctity of the Israel` moral political "mainstream" order as ordered and wich the leftism school of thought is cunningly manipulating to lead us astray and away from , and Meisel is an example ...... The Connection between Sovereignty and Sanctity is well anchored in Jewish Tradition , sanctity is also not to do evil ..... Book of Judges Chap1:8...... 8. And the children of Judah fought against Jerusalem and captured it, and smote it with the edge of the sword; and set the city on fire........ Note that the Jews endangered their Jewish lives and conquered Jerusalem when it even was not officially yet the spiritual and political Capital of Israel , weight such jewish actions and compare them to Meisel say of "Judaism praises the sanctity of life", as a leftism school of thought mnipulative and misleading brainwash ............ Jewish political , civil and religious rights are undermined , disrespected by arabs whose pronounced downright goal seek control and sovereignty over Jerusalem , Temple Mount and more as their charters and constitutions states , and on top of violence, arabs do it by exploiting their civil and religious rights for political gains ........ A leader , a ruler , a king , a gov't must restrain the people within certain rules , boundaries, from doing evil....... Moreover.....

Madame, Tosefta is not qualified even to listen to/read anything on the subject, much less to say anything. Let him talk about political nonsense - such as hamas evolution

is: The Word of God given to Israel through Moses and the Prophets is the root of Christianity. Although Mohammed used both the Word of God given to Israel through Moses and the Prophets AND the Word of God through Christ/Messiah to create an entirely different book. I do not see this book being "rooted" in either. This is a book where the "things of men" are above "the things of God". Obvious is the Glory being sought for a certain people over the rest as opposed to God over all.

Danite argues better to put all our eggs in one basket with Abbas then to wait for more stable leadership among the Palestinians to emerge. While I appreciate the desperateness of the situation, the gamble you are asking everyone to take is too risky for my tastes. We'll see how the conference in Paris goes. If Abbas can attract enough nations to support him then I'd be willing to reconsider. But as of right now he hasn't managed to capture the imagination of his own people, Israelis, or the world community. All of which he will need if he is going to succeed where others have failed.

Anyway, in response to your comment: First of all, I cannot even begin to imagine how you got that from what I said. Secondly, Christianity is NOT a "The Jews Better Listen, Convert or Die!" kind of doctrine. As a matter of fact, it is quite the contrary, as it teaches that it will come to pass that ALL of Israel together will "Look upon the one they have pierced and mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son". At the end of the day, Messiah Himself will reveal Himself to Israel and ALL of Israel will be saved" Let me reread what I said, maybe I can figure out where you're coming from.

Ruth needs to learn about the Millenial Kingdom and what it will mean for Israel and real world peace. Jerusalem will be very Jewish and Islam will not be tolerated if not obliterated by the Second Coming of the Messiah that Christians knew about 2,000 years ago.

First, the Rabbi you quote has grossly misinterpreted the scientific literature. You can not use "mtDNA" to trace paternal linkages to ancestral groups, because all mtDNA comes from the mothers, not the fathers (its called maternal inheritance). This is how the famous mtDNA linkage involving SNPs and the "Cohen gene" was established linking modern and ancient Jews (and some non-Jews) with ancestry to Cohen's, Kahns, Katz's and other modern Jewish surnames descended from the ancient Cohanim (now known to be factual). Its a rare situation involving the matrilineal nature of Judiasm and the old priestly traditions. Here's why Tosefta's claim of Palestinians 4000 years ago is nuts (presumably he means the caananites, phoenicians and nabateans are ancestors of modern "Palestinians")- Muslim Arab culture is patrilineal (women to them being like cattle), not matrilineal, like Jewish tradition. You can't track a patrilineal culture with maternal DNA (mtDNA). Get it?

Temper Temper!!!!

How long has it been since "Christians" slaughtered Jews? A little hint: No one following the teachings of Christ EVER slaughtered a Jew. I don't care what they called themselves.

having to say things that are obvious. I included Cipora because she has not taken issue with ruth meisels even after I posted meisels article that appeared in David Dukes newspaper and her alliace with danite. There is trembling & doing something about it. You are either all the way or do not say a thing. She herself has told me that she is not a PATRIOT, if not what is she? I happen to like Cipora and of the bunch that writes on a constant basis is very good and articulate in defence of Israel.But that pesky equivalence and Humanism keeps sneeking in. You, I enjoy immensely as well as Klaudia and KUTW (and both are not even Jewish) and Jeff Northridge is a fair guy even though I am not in full agreement, but as a non Jew he is excellent in his analysis. Tzfonit(Bracha) has the good sense to not post here or on SS and she is in my opinion not protective at all. Ask her neighbours. Again my invitation for Corned Beef stands anytime in Toronto HANEM52003@yahoo.ca

christians built a better mouse trap. And the Moslems after them an even better one. And By God, The Jews Better Listen, Convert or Die! A hell of a way to legitimize your religions!!!!

You claim the Jews misinterpreted the intentions of the author but it took you 20 centuries to slaughter them in order FOR YOU to understand the intentions of the author and that the parables were about humanity? Gee, no wonder there is a big question about your abilities to comprehend.

Never in the anals of history,ever since man began to walk upright,has there been such a brutal,cruel,lying and thieving "religion as christianity. The Vatican,the greatest robbers of all time.Only fools(and there are countless numbers of them who fall for their rich attier,whilst their souls are full of hatred) Let them open their archives,and show the world the loot from SOUTH AMERICA,the FAR EAST,and THE NEAR EAST. Where ever they set foot,they plundered what ever they could.Their bishops,cardenls,etc,sleep with young boys,& perform SODOMy."Love thy neighbour's boy for gratification". Was it ib the year 1934 that the then POPE signed a concordat with that SWINE from GERMANY? They are all the same. Even their prophecy,which they prophesy that in every MILLENIA the world is coming to an end is all FALSE,as usual.Then they say a terrible war will take place iN MEGGIDO(ARMAGEDON)NONSENSE!IT will happen in EUROPE.

Hi there Dr. Brnd, Tosefta is quite correct in his post about the genetic linkage of the Jewish people's origin having genetic markers to the people of the Middle East. There's a very interesting book written by Rabbi Yaakov Kleiman, "DNA and Tradition - The Genetic Link to the Ancient Hebrews", Devora Publishing 2004. This Rabbi has spoken in Toronto and Israel - very convincing. For example, it's explained as one of the linkages p.39:"..in terms of the origins of the mtDNA certainly this is very consistent with the tradition that the early Israelites took wives from a wide geographic range, extending from Mesopotamia - the region between the rivers Tigris and Euphrates - presently Iraq, to the are of Syria and beyond, and possibly Africa and Egypt. Certainly, the mtDNA of Sara, Rivka, Rachel, and Leah were not expected to have been passed on to the descendents of Jacob exclusively." There's paternal and maternal linkages.

SHIMON AND I AM NOT AXAGGERETING.SO I AM OFF ONCE AGAIN.CAME ONLY TO KILL TIME,BUT I FIND,IT MAY KILL ME....

UGH! disgusting the lot of them.UGH!UGH!

An interesting set of quotations, but I don't see the relevance to the Declaration of Independence; only one of them mentions peace, and none of them have anything to do with justice or freedom.

Yes, Jerusalem is a symbol - of the Jewish people and our 5,768-year-old history and traditions. If the Muslims gain control of East Jerusalem, they will go after all of Jerusalem, then all of Israel. Jerusalem is the heart and soul of Israel and of Jews everywhere. We must keep the city unified at all costs.

STRUTH! YOU ARE THE ABSOLUTE TEMINAL. WHERE IS JEREMIAH? GONE WITH THE WIND? OH,I FORGET,YOU HAVE DOROTHY WRITING LONG AND BORING PIECES INSTEAD.NEXT WILL BE,REBEKHA S,THEN DANA,THEN BARAK RAVID,ON AND ON IT GOES.YOU ARE A GREEDY GUTS...

whether you put this out or not,I am getting a great satisfaction by putting pen to paper so to speak.JUST BUGGER OFF I HATE YOUR VERY PRESENCE.BAD ENOUGH WITH HASS,AND GIDEON,NOW WE HAVE YOUR BLOODY STUPID ARTICLE AS WELL.

see #3 !

Yes. It seems that for some Jews, caring about others requires them to hate themselves. No doubt "Jews" like Danite would put the settlers in concentration camps just to prove what "good Jews" they are.

And out of date. Gabe1 and I have been buddies for a while. Looks like you're a poor judge of character...yet again. LOL! You are pathetic.

Ha'aretz should be commended for its tolerance of this negative phenomenon...

Gabe1 While I may agree with some of the names you mentioned,I beg to differ the inclusion of Cipora.Just because she write with due prosess of articles does not preclude her from being balanced in her views.She,like you trembles at the thought of any calamity that might befall Israel you'd be surprised to read between the line dear man. Now than,that one above who wrote the article I take personal objection with.She we can well do without for sure. Jane:Well,she lived,worked and helped in Israel from what I gather.NMow she is a diaspora Jew like so many who come here(need I name them?). Tzfonit:Well,she tends to be on the left side of the pond,but!scratch the surface,and you'll see her as a lioness trying to protect her young(Israel to you Gabe).Cipora is a good Jew who cares deeply,and has academically leanings which to you doesn't sound patriotic enough. Lesson endeth here

Numbers, comprehension, and other basics..... You must have missed out on these at an early age....

The time to strike is now.If abbas doesnt get something real in hand, it will only make hamas stronger and entrench them.Not acting while abbas is president is a serious tactical and strategic error.If we get stuck with the Bibi -hamas dynamic this will go on for another generation and might become insolvable.Yes the time to act is NOW.This is not some kind of game that we can leave and come back to later.We are at the crossroads, lets chose wisely.

oh my, the effects of the swiss donkey are rubbing off and the transformation has begun folks...the apologist ass ig rowing long ears. oy vay listen to him braying...things that I have said over a year ago still haunt the arabist apologist as his anxious braying displays. ahhh a little deterrence troubles him, treating fire with fire troubles him, the death of arabs not jews troubles him. arabs paying the price for their actions troubles him. I won't get into things other than to say the arabist apologist has gathered a coterie of irish rubbernecker,nada,videogameboy,the swiss donkey and of course that luminary lockshen not because of the jewish blood pulsing through his veins. Do the victors write history? The arabist apologist brays on...oh look..a tail is growing...

Nope, it does not have any of the other babble you wrote in it, and you left out the most important part: "it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations." Herzl, Brandeis and Ben Gurion are all no doubt spinning in their graves at was has now been wrought by Israel. The world can plainly see what Israel thinks about UN resolutions. By the way, the Israeli Declaration was signed in Tel Aviv, and not a word about Jerusalem is in it. Not too mention the promise of a constitution by October 1, 1948 is also late by about 60 years.

My bible, who I believe was written by the God of Israel says to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. These Palestinians wish to destroy her. If the PA wants a capital let them have it in Gaza or the West Bank.

We should all be thankful that those who write for Haaretz do not represent mainstream Israeli opinion or Israel would have been destroyed a long time ago. These pseudo Left wing Jewish extremist are harmful to Israel and the Jewish people and would be dangerous if not for their small numbers. Jerusalem is and will ALWAYS remain the Jewish capital and has nothing associated with Islam or the Arab people. What is needed is a relocation of the occupying Arabs in Israel and around so that peace may prevail. What provokes this conflict are people like Ruth who demonstrate a lack of solidarity and are more pro Hamas than pro-Israel. These are the obstacles to peace, the traitors in our midst.

I've worked with mountain Swiss like you and I would describe your attitude as being that of a bumpkin who doesn't know enough to understand how little he knows. And as for seducing 17, I'll take it under consideration, :)

a House of Prayer for all people" Create Jerusalem to be a City of Praise to our God, that David's lamp may shine bright before Him and bring Him Joy. Sovereignity to remain to the line of David. Many of whom have accepted the Words of Messiah as the very Words of God, as indeed they are. Jerusalem should not resemble other cities of this world. Jerusalem is indeed a very special and chosen city.

Unlike many who vilify Hamas at any and all occasions, I personally was excited at the possibilities of a Hamas run government. And while my enthusiasm has been considerably blunted I am still convinced that Israel would do better to talk with Hamas than to wait for their demise. Especially since I don't anticipate their demise any time soon in the next 20 years. That being said, I am also quite convinced that the key to finding common ground with Hamas (and for that matter the settlers) is NOT in a secular political arena. As Tosefta has said, over time Hamas has indeed evolved (as have the settlers), but evolution does not necessarily mean playing ball with secular politicians and international rules. So for the time being, I'm not convinced that a two state solution is a "stable" or "realistic" option.

the Root of Christianity. However, Christian [Jewish written] scripture is not against Jews. Nor has it ever been. It is against "Judaism" wherein the interpretations of the Jews were incorrect to the intentions of the Author (God). Messiah, "the Author and finisher of our faith" clarified between God's intentions and man's misguided interpretations, with many parables to help us understand. It has taken Christianity 20 centuries yes, with all the Word, Imagine how much longer for the rest with half the Word, or worst still, with the wrong Word. With the wrong Word, I dare say, they will never find their way! Each time we read scripture, we grow a little more, don't hesitate to take another look. It is not difficult to see why christians have walked the path they have and with gained understanding are where they are today.

"The State of Israel ... will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; " Psa 122:3 "Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:" 1Ki 11:36 "And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there." 1Ki 11:38 "And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee. Ezr 9:9 "For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem. " Ezr 10:7 "And they made proclamation throughout Judah and Jerusalem unto all the children of the captivity, that they should gather themselves together unto Jerusalem; " Ezr 13:16 "To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord G"D."

Ben Gurion or Judge Judy and 995 other faces. Do you have nothing better to do with your time My Arab Pisher Friend. You must have nmastered GOOGLING to a fine Art. BAA BAA BLACK SHEEP. Danite misses you and wants you back so you can be like in days of yore. The Birds of a Feather that Flock together. I would suggest ALL THREE of YOU flock off never to be seen again.

Jasmine, the problem is: What you are describing as "holier-than-thou" attitude is pretty much the absolute minimum standard here in our Western democracies. So you see, it is all a matter of perspective... By the way, my good friend 17, is just trying to get away from his little "backstabbing" addiction. So your attempt to seduce him into having a relapse was not very nice.... No, no, not very nice at all, Jasmine....:)

"I still say the Pals do not need to be ruled by a Damascus run group. It is not in their best interest." - Lynn There are a few mistakes in your post, which show a real lack of understanding of the situation. 1. Hamas is not a "Damascus run group", in the same way that Syria is not run by Iran. There interests converge in fighting Israel, and they help each other. Likewise, Israel is not a "US run country", it can insist on its own needs when necessary. 2. Hamas headquarters is in Damascus and not Gaza because it is more difficult to eliminate them this way. Same is true for other Pal groups. Hamas learned this "trick" when Israel controlled Gaza directly and arrested Hamas people all the time. 3. What is good for the Palestinians is decided by Palestinians. They so decided in their previous elections. You do not understand the options they have, and are unable to evaluate their choice. 4. Hamas is in the midst of a struggle against a superior force, Israel. They are doing it heroically, and with your understanding you will not know who is winning until after the fact.

Danit argues that the alternative to trying a two state solution with Abbas is to play "the same broken record for the next 20 years." One might argue just the opposite. That trying a two state solution is precisely what we've BEEN trying since Oslo and IT is the broken record that needs replacing rather than replaying. While I appreciate the desperate situation that moderate Palestinians find themselves in and do agree that we should support them; at this time I am not willing to gamble too much currency on their eventual success. In theory I'm not opposed to working out a deal (even regarding Jerusalem) with a strong, long term and undeniably "representative" Palestinian leadership. But Abbas is none of these. I think this is an issue over which reasonable people can disagree and Danite is CERTAINLY most reasonable.

Lynn, I think I understood your post very well. Bottomline: In the year 2030 Lynn would prefer to spend her beach-holidays in the Hotel Shalom in Gaza-city and not in the Hotel Inschallah..... Did I get that right...??? :)

Messiah was/is and always will be the first born of the Holy Spirit of God. We can be born of the Holy Spirit of God too. The bible says, I don't know exactly where, "Flesh gives birth to flesh and Spirit gives birth to Spirit." This makes perfect sense to me. Messiah was both born of the Spirit and the Flesh. He came to show us the Way, the Truth and the Life of God's creation...God's Word, God's Word, God's Word fits all three. Read the first chapter of the Gospel of John. Messiah, "the Word become flesh". Messiah our savior = God's Word is our salvation. And even the Jews who do not see Christ for who He is agree, There is NO OTHER savior but God. It makes me wonder what claims one would need to make to be accepted by them as Messiah?

I just noticed that you obviously could resist the (rather shameless) attempt by Jasmine Murphy to lure you into another little "back- stabbing"..... Very well done....!!! :) And don't worry, the Rudolph Steiner school is not really my thing, much too harsh for a rather "easy-going" guy like myself.... I would say in view of your excellent behaviour today, we can extend your "probation" for another 1-2 days. Would you be happy with that...???

"You can`t present an argument or new information to a blockhead. The blockage does not allow quick absorption of new ideas and information and one is bound to get into very many arguments over them with the blockhead." - Dr. Tosefta "As usual, when unable to debate man-to-man, you resort to insulting your opponents." - Captain Blockhead Captain Blockhead still does not "get" what good Dr. Tosefta says about him. Oh, that blockage again. There is a price to being blockheaded. A blockhead serves as a joke, not as a debating partner.

General Assembly inherited the League of Nations powers on Mandates.Hence Britain's proposal in consultation with the UN Trusteeship Council to partition historic Palestine into a jewish state and an Arab/Palestinian state.On Nov.29,1947 the General Assembly adopted Res.181,the Partition Resolution,thus ratifying the British proposal.A Trust ends only when both the beneficiaries benefit.It does not end when the Trustee or the Judge changes.Not relevant either that one of the beneficiaries did not accept Res.181.The Trust has not ended and 181 is still in the books.israel was happy to accept it.If you go to the site of Dan Gillerman's speech at the UN,Nov.29,1947(60th anniversary of Resolution 181)you'll see a little video of the jubilation among the jews when it was announced that Res.181 had been passed.

Hi Jeff, I am back alive and (very) well...!! Sorry to disappoint you, but it wasn't a 4000-er (maybe you wanna read my original post again...), the "giant" we climbed was exactly 2160 meter (about 6400 feet). Starting point 900 meter (2700 feet). Just a nice little Saturday-afternoon hike, and (fortunately) I didn't even have to carry my godchild on the way back... Good boy. And thanks anyway for your good wishes,some here might be (slightly) disappointed that I made it back alive, glad to hear that you are not among them....:) Cheers.

Using the halachic concept of pikuach nefesh\saving lives to jusitfy conceding on Jerusalem is based on misconceptions. Conquering land in Israel is in and of itself a commandment which must necessarily involve "risk to life." Not all commandments are easy,especially ones involving settling the land of Israel. For more interesting audio-shiurim on this topic go to Rav David Bar-Hayim's www.machonshilo.org

Christians are willing to leave that to God's Judgement. Their focus is on The Great Commission" of Christ, ie., "Then Jesus came to them and said, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matthew 28:18-20 God reveals Himself as He Wills for His purposes. Hope Haaretz posts my prior post to you.

I see that you and gabe1 have become co dependant anger challenged enablers to each other.How nice for you.You finally found a friend to talk to.

Od di the govt teach you to ignore the plain meaning of things and invent your own stroy line as you go? I didnt say YOU were a communist in Poland, I said that Communist Poland did a real little number on your head.Your posts are ample proof of that.

article concerning the moderation and evolution of Hamas. The author of the article is the head of Al Arabiya. He discusses their 20th Anniversary and how far they have come in their maturation. And, I still say the Pals do not need to be ruled by a Damascus run group. It is not in their best interest.

And I did say that you have always been a Communist and an Anarchist and that I never was a communist even in Poland: not that you said I was. READ MA CHERIE and just like we should leave the Middle East matra of your, it is a take that has no basis in fact and was misread by you. Do not assume that someone can be more illiterate or more stupid than you are.

A closed mind is like a closed book; just a block of wood. Those who do not read are no better off than those who cannot. The Gods cannot help those who do not try to help themselves. The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.

to come near accept the Jews.Islam need at lest as much time .It is more a question of religion all this conflict is all about.No one should mistaken that.What makes it complicated is the fact that both Christianity & Islam have Judaism as their roots.It will be very dificult for both of them to forget that.Both Islam & Christianity are based on discredting Judaism as the wrong path to worship the same God. A starting point that can not allow compromise. One can see many signs 'Jews for Jesus'.But one can not see anywhere a sign 'Muslems for Jesus' or 'Buddahism for Jesus'. This must be the hate for Jews in their religion.In their best time in the 9th-11th centuries,the Muslims never made Jerusalem as the Capital of any of their several countries.And the same with the Ottoman and Jordan.This conflict is religious and nothing do with land. The Jews are discredited in both religions in their Holy Books.Both must be honest to admit that as true believers.

Do not expect these sentiments from the "REAL JEWS" such as Danite. Dorothy (The Zionist "Jew")Jane. Tzfonit or even Cipora. REAL JEWS.HA HA HA. They are fashion Jews except for Dorothy who is just plainly Christian and antisemitic at that. But lets not kid ourselves the Self haters or Fashion Jews are not less anti Jew or anti Israel, they are just more subtle about Israels destruction. They prefer this to be in stages. I just pity people that have no Humanism for their own and not even the common saichel to keep quiet about it. Just a bunch of morons who think that they bought into modern intelligentsia.

As usual, when unable to debate man-to-man, you resort to insulting your opponents. You're a very weak person.

This weeks Torah portion speaks of the two sticks becoming one. This is a picture of what Christ [God] has done for the Jews and the Gentiles [Arabs & Christians; all non-Jews] "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Ephesians 2:12-15 This NOT to be inturpreted the Law is Abolished, Messiah spoke to this elsewhere. Christ is Messiah, even Islam agrees to this. Messiah IS greater than a prophet. Moses and Mohammed.

Howdy Tosefta; 'The fact is that the Palestinians have been living on this land "from time immemorial"' That is highly unlikely in general seeing as how the ancestors of the vast majority of who are now called Palestinians immigrated to the Holy Land from other areas after the 6th Century with the bulk of them between the mid-19th and 20th Centuries. "...,but they are descendants of the early inhabitants, plus the various groups that wandered in and out." To what degree? The relationship with the "early inhabitants", i.e., those who preceded the Hebrews, is probably slim to negligible. Besides, I sincerely doubt if any early group maintained a continuous presence in the Holy Land for 5,000 years straight. Everybody was wandering in and out. Are you suggesting that the non-Jews were somehow spared the consquences of war, conquest, enslavement, dispersal, migration, famine, plague, etc. and the Jews weren't? It's not very likely.

The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend. Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open. An error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it. Idiocy -- To know without having learned; to draw conclusions from unknown premises. I don't know whether the world is full of smart men bluffing or imbeciles who mean it.

Many non-technical people cannot conceive of changes in the world, especially those driven by environmental pressures. But change is one of the constants in our existence, and everything else's too. Hamas has been changing all along, as a result of pressure. At the initial post-Oslo period they refused to get involved in the PA which in their mind was a creation of Israel. They didn't run in the 1995, 1996, 2005 elections. But in 2006 they saw the light and ran (and even won). A change! Can't be! May be it was a mistake? Maybe. Hamas formed a Hamas government after their victory. It was boycotted by the world. So in 2007 they formed a Unity Government, allowing Abbas to negotiate with Israel, and agreeing to put the deal to a referendum. A change! Can't be! Well, may be it was a mistake? Maybe. While in the past Hamas only agreed to a 10 year hudna instead of a peace treaty, they already started talking about a 2 state solution. What would they have done if the peace treaty were to be approved in a referendum, and with a provision that a party not accepting it would not be able to participate in politics? Not hard to predict, except for people who can't conceive of evolutionary changes. As a counter-argument, the evolution-challenged use the Hamas Charter nonsense. It was representative of Hamas positions when it was written (1988). The written word does not change constantly. The Torah never changes, but its interpretation changed radically, enough for Moses not to understand anything Rabbi Akiva was saying (as in the Talmudic story). Think of a more recent example. The PLO had a dangerous charter. But it was CHANGED after the Oslo deal. Once you have a peace deal you know what to change the Charter into. Before that you cannot change it. Another counter-argument by the evolution-challenged is that TODAY, Hmas declares its opposition to Israel's existence. Of course it does, since its moderation has been disregarded it reverts to its old position. Encourage moderation, and you will have it; discourage moderation, and you will get extremism. Evolution depends on the external conditions!

Swiss Din # 6: "On the other hand, unlike Israel, the Iranians are not holding another people under their thumb..." tell that to the Kurds, Bahais, women outside the home without a male relative covered head-to-foot,Jews, political opponents and others. The writer know nothing and is very proud to display. So it is ok for the Pals to want a Jew free land.

"I have spoken enough about Hamas here. Tired of it now." -Tosefta Poor Tosefta. But we Jews so delight in hearing you defend Hamas atrocities against Jewish women and children as "legitimate resistance." How about one more for the record... give us a good rant for your brother Hanyia. Tell us how Israel is still occupying Gaza together with Egypt, thus necessating Hamas rocket attacks against Israeli civilians... such a beautiful example of Arab mentality. Cheers, Jewboy

Since you are so solicitous of commandments, what ever happened to "You shall neither vex a stranger nor oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt" and "You shall have one manner of law as well for the stranger as for one of your own country". You are strangely selective in which laws you honor. Do I detect hypocrisy?

Ruth, your (faulty) logic can also be applied to all of Israel. Is there a commandment that Jews must rule any part of Israel?

You ask whether Jews are a people or a religion and whether Jerusalem belongs to a converted Jew as well. If you have converted, then you are a Jew. Period. Personally I think Jews are a religion, since Moses declared on the Sinai that "the Covenant is also betw. G-D and those, who join the Jews in future". Nevertheless, Moses, who was married to a non-Jew, left his wife behind at her father's, as he set off to lead the Hebrews to the Promised Land. Maybe he thought that the Jews are a people, not a religion until he changed his mind later. It is written in the Tanach that the G-D of Israel is a universal G-D and the peoples of the world will come and kneel down before Him in His Temple and He will hear their prayers too. The Feast of Tabernacles is an international in-gathering of the peoples of the world, who come rejoicing to Jerusalem to celebrate His glory. Therefore in order to honour our common G-D, Jerusalem should not be divided, but be a City that belongs to all the peoples.

However , in order to propel the fabrication of the pal state thru the arab and Road Map skullduggery , opponents counter such legit assertion and reverts to delegitimise Israel , A vicious , unscrupulous method to gain sympathic world opinion for the said diplomatic plans is to market them as fashion of the day policies , and on the other hand to project on the back of Israel , the arabs very own war crimes aggression thru the fabricated epithets of apartheid , occupation ect... Such diplomatic moves are injustice that undermine the developement of the Jewish National home on the territory originally set by the "Mandate" and such methods are criminal injustice the same as the biblical one planting silver in the food bags of Joseph` brother so to accuse them of theft and the examples of the staged , fake , fabricated footages of Al-Dura , Jennin , Lebanon , Gaza Beach explosion ect... are revealing of such opponents vicious , unscrupulous methods , thieves diplomatic skullduggery , war crimes , fabricated epithets and criminal injustice , a 24/7 confusion and massacre of the truth . We are thus left with the Israel?s Declaration of Independence quote "We appeal to the Jewish people throughout the Diaspora to rally round the Jews of Eretz-Israel in the tasks of immigration and upbuilding and to stand by them in the great struggle for the realization of the age-old dream - the redemption of Israel. " , A Hisroric Declaraion in line , in accord with the Mandate` article 4 , The "Mandate" calls for steps to encourage Jewish immigration and settlement throughout Israel .

Howdy Lakshmi; I have never said that the Security Council can determine borders; it can't, but it can endorse, acknowledge, and recognize borders and armistice lines bilaterally agreed to by the two principle parties. The General Assembly has the authority to change the terms of a mandate, but it has no jurisdiction over matters which fall outside of the duration of that mandate which includes the proposed partition plan because it was to be implemented after the Mandate had ended. If the idea of UNGAR 181 had been to perpetuate the Mandate under different terms, then the General Assembly could have ordered the Mandatory Power to enforce the partition. However, the idea was to terminate the Mandate and the partition plan was a recommendation only and not a dictate. The General Assembly completely discharged its obligations to the beneficiaries by making their share of the benefit available for possession to both the Jews and the Arabs before the Mandate ended. End of trust too.

The Preamble of the Mandate for Palestine say "...it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,..." and is respected , promoted and enforced effectively by the Israeli Gov't administration in all of Israel Holy sites , Experience and History show otherwise when the administration of Holy sites and Holy City were/are not under Jewish rule , 1949-67 arab administration , and Oct 10, 2000 when arabs (pal) supposed police directed arabs workers to transform Joseph's Tomb in Nablus into a mosque, after the Jewish holy site was ransacked by arabs after Israeli soldiers evacuated Skhen town and the Jewish Holy site. In Jericho, the ancient Jewish synagogue was burned, and arabs crowds prevented fire trucks from putting out the blaze. The ancient shrine of Rachel's Tomb adjacent to Bethlehem has been subjected to repeated Palestinian machine-gun fire and fire bombs, while shots have been fired at worshippers at the Me'arat Hamahpelah Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron. Hence the calls and diplomatic attempts and coercive pressure to administer the Jerusalem Holy City and other Holy sites by a joint arabs-Israeli or foreign body (with whatever form ) is politically motivated and has clearly , obviously the political goal to throw confusion so to gradually swindle off jewish hands the Int'lly granted , garanteed , recognised and Legal Jewish Sovereignty as stipulated by the said Mandate, Such opponents moves portrayed as compromise , concession or sacrifice are based on mischief and thus invalid claims . As invalid is also the arab self-determination clause first stipulated in the 1978 Israeli-Egypt agreement , for such clause has a political goal other than and in addition of the stipulated Mandate wich calls only for civil and religious rights for non-jewish communities , is in fact a diplomatic mischief substracted by coercive pressure on the Israeli Gov't , such clause is in violation of the said 'sacred-trust' Mandate , As if not enough and due to the conflict which as a consequence of Arab actions became a dead issue. In fact, both Palestinians and their Arab brethren in neighboring countries have rendered the plans of the Balfour Declaration , the "Mandate for Palestine" and UN 181 (the 1947 partition) null and void by their own subsequent aggressive actions over the years untill today and also for many years to come based on their said arabs charter or constitution . Yet , opponents exploite the said partition as a leverage to further advance their goal, example of the talks about 1949 armistice lines , known as the pre- 67 cease-fire lines . "Death to Israel" shout the arab mob in pan arab world streets , The State of Israel` Legitimacy is not legally derived from the partition plan, Hence as do most other states in the world , the State of the Jews` independence rests on assertion by Israelis and gov't, on the vindication of that independence by arms for protection against assault by other states, and on the establishment of orderly government within territory under its stable control. ( counter diplomatic moves in parallel)

I dint say YOU were a communist in Poland, I said that communist Poland did a real little number your on your head.The fact that you cannot even understand such a simple sentence proves my point.get it now?

Arabs make political claim over Jerusalem Same goes for PA-Abbas-Fayyad-Fatah , Arabs portray themselves as peace seekers thru the arab skullduggery initiative , But Fatah Constitution Article 12 incite for the: "Complete ...obliteration of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence." As for how it will achieve its goal to wipe Israel off the map, Fatah's constitution, Article 19, minces no words: "Armed struggle is a strategy and not a tactic, and the Palestinian Arab People's armed revolution is a decisive factor ...in uprooting the Zionist existence, and this struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated." Same goes for Hamas who calls for a 'Hudna' while the Hamas Charter states in its second paragraph: "Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors." Meisel disregard the above and thru a pretext to save jewish life , she exploit the Jewish Halakhic Law to partition J'lem but thru such Meisel interpretation she is not protecting and saving jewish life , Meisel contribute to the arab skullduggery goal made with threats , In the context of Meisel support to slash the State of the Jews spiritual and politic Capital , the supposed Meisel` moral dilemma of life vs death goes against the Israel` moral political mainstream order . Meisel is not hesitating between two opinions , she already chose the one that fit her interests forged by the leftism school of thought skullduggery , Wich as we all know aims , thru cunning subversives methods actuated on all fronts exploiting democratic tools ,to disconnect the National Jewish Identity rooted in the biblical hills and Jerusalem in particular , Is such Meisel interest a leftism school of thought racism ? antisemetism? it certainly is antizionism , Did you expect othewise from this Meisel or Abu Gideon Levy` columns ? Zionism , a jewish movement and World Zionist Organisation , a jewish agency recognised and approved by the world community for the developement of the Jewish National Home in Israel , as the 'Mandate for Palestine" stipulate in article 4 and wich mandate is valid to this day . True is that such Mandate is invalid in the eyes of its opponents , example of the PLO Charter Article 20: "The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. ect..." For Political rights to self-determination as a polity for Arabs are guaranteed by the Mandate only in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and in Jordan. Opponents reject the Mandate but at the same time for their political aim exploite the human rights of the Nov.2, 1917 , Balfour Declaration quote " nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine ," Hence arabs skullduggery exploit human civil and religious rights of non-jews in Israel in order to politically propel the fabrication of a pal state thru a Jerusalem division , and an Israeli withdrawal from its biblical hills , The Mandate granted Jews the irrevocable political , civil and religious rights to settle anywhere in Israel , the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, Those are rights unaltered in international law and valid to this day. Jewish settlements in Judea, Samaria (i.e., the West Bank), Gaza and the whole of Jerusalem are legal.

The point being, that unless headway is made with abbas at least over a an official deal in principle, we will be playing the same broken record for the next 20 years.yes indeed Hamas has been the power behind the throne for many years now.the only way to put a leash on them is to give abbas something to fight them with, ie a deal with israel.I am not saying a two state solution will be easy to do.It is a question of will and understanding that it is the only way foward.lets do a deal with abbas, then let him fight and election on the basis, then lets see what really happens to hamas and their pwoer to sabotage the deal.That is the only way forward.To create political facts on the ground that can only be ignored at the price of organisational suicide for hamas if they chose to make problems.

The final resolution of the issue of Jerusalem will be ushered in by a Jerusalem which descends from Heaven,made not by human hands. It will be the focal point of the world rule in the coming Millenial Kingdom which no person(s) or nation(s) can abridge nor abort-in short, it's inevitable.Amen.

Hi Esther - I humbly stand corrected on ignoring the fact that Hamas ALSO has its foreign support. I guess this is further proof that notwithstanding the end of the Cold War, Israelis and Palestinians are still pons in a much larger chess game of which neither one can either win or resolve by themselves. As to your advice for Elias to leave the holy men and books at home, I suspect that we disagree. Religious people ARE the main combatants whom the non-religious have little control over. And the religious are only acquiring more and more clout within their respective societies. As irrational as it may seem to a secular person, religious people have a language of their own and CAN sort these things out. What might be surprising to many people is that religious zealotry (of all religions) may be more of a response to their secular counterparts, than their religious counterparts.

Thanks.The special council can be drawn up from elected repesentatives from the communities based on percentage of population. However the "upper house" will have equal representation for the communities no matter what their numbers and the upper house will have a veto on the lower house.Also the executive can contain representatives of both the PA and Israel.It is complicated but this way both flags can fly and both peoples can claim it equally.the other solution is to have the Jewish quarter stay with israel and the rest to the PA.Also when I say the jewish areas of jerusalem I mean areas like Gilo , french hill Ramot eshkol and Pisgat zeev, not only what was formerly west Jerusalem.Regards Prince.

Whatever.

Ruth's lifelong dedication to halakha preaches: "laws for which a person must give up his life before violating them: the prohibitions on shedding of blood, idol worship and forbidden sexual relations." This MUST mean the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa, commemorating the supposed rise to heaven of Mohammed (although referred to as the "Northern City" not Jerusalem) must be destroyed! Let's hear it loud and clear Ruth. Either you believe in your halakha (no Jews controlling Jerusalem but also no Dome of the Rock) or you don't (and thus Jews can control Jerusalem). Please reply to this post and tell us which of the two options you want.

Many non-technical people cannot conceive of changes in the world, especially those driven by environmental pressures. But change is one of the constants in our existence, and everything else's too. Hamas has been changing all along, as a result of pressure. At the initial post-Oslo period they refused to get involved in the PA which in their mind was a creation of Israel. They didn't run in the 1995, 1996, 2005 elections. But in 2006 they saw the light and ran (and even won). A change! Can't be! May be it was a mistake? Maybe. Hamas formed a Hamas government after their victory. It was boycotted by the world. So in 2007 they formed a Unity Government, allowing Abbas to negotiate with Israel, and agreeing to put the deal to a referendum. A change! Can't be! Well, may be it was a mistake? Maybe. While in the past Hamas only agreed to a 10 year hudna instead of a peace treaty, they already started talking about a 2 state solution. What would they have done if the peace treaty were to be approved in a referendum, and with a provision that a party not accepting it would not be able to participate in politics? Not hard to predict, except for people who can't conceive of evolutionary changes. As a counter-argument, the evolution-challenged use the Hamas Charter nonsense. It was representative of Hamas positions when it was written (1988). The written word does not change constantly. The Torah never changes, but its interpretation changed radically, enough for Moses not to understand anything Rabbi Akiva was saying (as in the Talmudic story). Think of a more recent example. The PLO had a dangerous charter. But it was CHANGED after the Oslo deal. Once you have a peace deal you know what to change the Charter into. Before that you cannot change it. Another counter-argument by the evolution-challenged is that TODAY, Hmas declares its opposition to Israel's existence. Of course it does, since its moderation has been disregarded it reverts to its old position. Encourage moderation, and you will have it; discourage moderation, and you will get extremism. Evolution depends on the external conditions!

Ruth thinks we yearned for "Jerusalem" for 2,000 years. Not as a physical place but as a symbol. The truth is Jews yearned for the PHYSICAL GEOGRAPHICAL AREA OF JERUSALEM and the OLD CITY. Not just the symbol. Now that we FINALLY have it for real, Ruth yearns to relinquish it and go back to the "wandering Jew" with the romantic notion of a spiritual ideal. Not with true national ambitions. Ruth, your kind will be in the dustbin of history!

"braying with the swiss donkey...ahhhh the ears have grown and the transformation has begun." - Peter the Talking Ass "To a hammer (Heb. Chamor), everything looks like a nail" What distinguishes a talking ass from an ordinary fool? The ass not only talks like a fool but can also see angels and other imaginary things that ordinary humans can't. Take Peter of Montreal, for example. Peter will solve the Hamas problem by expelling all Palestinians. Brilliantly imaginary. Oh yes, the victors are the ones who write history, so nobody will know. I don't think even Balaam's ass (aka Grandma Bella to her descendants), the prototype, was capable of more. And the Lebanon problem? Just take 1000 Palestinian prisoners (not enough Lebanese available) and shoot them if the 2 IDF captives are not released. Repeat the process daily. Bella would have been mighty proud of her descendant Peter. One of the most useless posters here, who knows how to complain endlessly but to offer zero real ideas, keeps calling reasonable people like Swiss a "donkey". Take a look in a mirror and try to understand what your problem is, Talking Ass Peter. All it takes is an eye and a brain.

I think that is quite obvious that IF a Palestinian state ever comes to fruition then OF COURSE it will be up to its leadership to decide on issues of citizenship, immigration, residency, etc. Also, I never challenged the fact that in the eyes of the Israeli government Israeli Arabs are second class citizens compared to Jews (although I think they have somewhat better standing in the courts). My only point was that notwithstanding Israeli discrimination; Arab Israelis, and Palestinians (both Christian and Muslim) who have lived under Israeli sovereignty (as opposed to occupation) do not want their status changed so as to live in Palestinian state. Surely this says something important about who they are more afraid of: Close minded Jews or Open minded Palestinians!

Ruth, There is no official commandment in the Koran that Mecca / Medina should be ruled by Muslims. Let me hear you formally demand the Arabs relinquish control to the international community, or to the Jews. LETS HEAR YOU DEMAND IT YOU HYPOCRITE!

well said! Also there is no commandment of the 613 that Haaretz must employ Ruth Meisels. Or that the US should exist. Does that mean if something isn't in the 613 commandments it should be fired / destroyed?

ABOVE. If I forget you, O Jerusalem, May my right hand forget her skill. If I forget you, Jerusalem, let my right hand forget how to play the lyre. If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, Let my right hand forget her skill . If I keep not your memory, O Jerusalem, let not my right hand keep the memory of its art. If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgotten. If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, my right hand forgetteth!

I would never claim that Israel's occupation is ONLY about Palestinian militancy. Obviously, Israel has its own ideological, religious and economic reasons for occupation or it would have make a serious attempt to get out sooner. Also, I agree that Hamas is the PRODUCT of occupation than its cause. Nevertheless, we still have a problem that demands a solution and I'm not so convinced that arguments about "blame," "justice," "historical truth," or even "economic necessity" are strong enough to overcome the emotionally charged issues before us. In general, I think that secular leadership has lost control of the situation and regrettably suspect that there won't come any peaceful solution until religious leaders (on all sides) decide to work it out. I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't think that those who are MOST involved in this conflict are ready to turn their spears into plows. It seems that those who are doing most of the talking, are those who have the least amount of clout!

I heard that in the next HAJ, JEWS will be welcomed to participate.

If I forget thee, O' Jerusalem....?

Montreal has done just as much to you.

Do not flatter yourself MA CHERIE you always will be a Communist and Anarchist. I have never been a Communist even in Poland. You hate Jews, Israel and the settlers, the religious , the right and the left. Historic Israel is not for sale not by you and not by Cipora try as you both may. Neither of you is much different than Esther, Tzfonit, Dorothy or Jane. But what can one expect from a DELUDED, DISFUNCTIONAL, DELIRIOUS, DUMMY such as you. Were you actually thrown out of the settlements or was it just a sordid love affair gone awry, or perhaps they would not let you play LEADER. Hack Even Ben Gurion shunned your advances and hence the separation.

"everything else, incl. tracing lines back to canaanites & the like, is just demagoguery & manipulative argument. & of course, both peoples have claim & the point is, the LEGAL process leading to the legal decision of giving room for 2 states & 2 peoples on this land was not unfounded & has already ben decided." - Ivo Ivo, I was objecting to a false factual claim by Jake, concerning the ancestry of present day Palestinians. Of course, Jake objected for political reasons. He saw the political implication. The fact is that the Palestinians have been living on this land "from time immemorial". Not in genetic purity, and not with the consciousness of a distinct people, but they are descendants of the early inhabitants, plus the various groups that wandered in and out. We are dealing with two peoples, the Jews and today's Palestinians who have ancestral rights to the land. The talmudic solution would be to share it (if it were not the holy land). Most Israelis accept this solution. The visible issue today is what share each people should get. Behind the security questions lurks the old urge to grab everything.

Figures Lie and Liers figure. How close are the Syrians, the Iraqis genetically to European Jews? How close genetically are Egyptians or Lebanese to lets said the Saudis? What does that prove? This is not a genetically inspired war but rather a Religious conflict. The Arabs were not present in Israel at the time of the dispersion , they were not present in Israel until the middle 1800's. The Balis are Arabs just as the Egyptians (simply by conquest and mixing. The fact is that they are not native to Israel but came in together or after Jewish returns.

on my post 249# & the 'black stone'. There is a theory that this ''black stone' in Makka was looted from the Jews who so many of them were living in Nujjed in the time of Mohammed. An added possibility that the 'Black stone' is a Jewish proterty. PS as regarding the DNA the Saudis should allow jews to find out if there are any old Jewish Graves in their Kingdom to help study the Jewish connections with that land. I think it is a serious matter.

The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend. Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open. An error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it. Idiocy -- To know without having learned; to draw conclusions from unknown premises. I don't know whether the world is full of smart men bluffing or imbeciles who mean it.

and still not entirly accepted Judaism.It is obvious that it will take Islam more centuries than that. Compare that with the Jews who never bothered Christians &Islam from the day those two religions were born.There is no Christian or Islam holocaust by the Jews.And no burning of Churches&Mosques.Is all this hate against the Jews because they steal Judaism and they defend themselves by adding insult to injury.What made them so much fanatic against the Jews & worry of Judaism surviving if it is not their fear that history will uncover the lies as it always dose.I have seen many 'Jews for Jesus' but I never saw Muslims for Jeses or Buddhism for Jesus.In its glory in the 9-10th centuries Islam didn't bother to make Jerusalem one of its several Capitals ? The Ottomans & Jordan also didn't do that. Let them spell it out if they have the courage and the conviction & say it;we hate the Jews as part of our teachings and faith.This is the honest way for true believers.

- & so long.. as an ethnic group? that's very misleading. one could just as well argue that the "CZECHS" have lived in their area of central europe over millenia, covering the time of both slavs, kelts, the germanic tribes & what have you. genetically you could probably find elements of all of these plus more. i have no problem w/a "palestinian" (/whatever you'd call it) reality & ethnicity, if you like, from 7th century & onwards. they can build their claim on that & that's what counts. their relatively high number as inhabitants at the time of the major jewish influx of immigrants is also a strong argument speaking in their favour. everything else, incl. tracing lines back to canaanites & the like, is just demagoguery & manipulative argument. & of course, both peoples have claim & the point is, the LEGAL process leading to the legal decision of giving room for 2 states & 2 peoples on this land was not unfounded & has already ben decided. rgs, -

hi tosefta, - as you're saying to jake, i'm not sure where you yourself are heading w/this argument. we've had exchanges on this topic before & share the basic views here, i think. this is not a genetic question. the DNA argument is just due the obsession of our day to break everything down to physical, even mathematical evidence. it's also really hard to be accurate /too sure here, although a certain genetic correlation w/reg. to ethnic groups shouldn't surprise anyone. nor is it a question of who's indigenous /who's not. we shouldn't expect an indigenous foundation for countries /states everywhere & it's not the case either for (probably) most of them. peoples have come & gone, conquered & inter-mixed in the ME over millenia & this is just staple history. as for jews, they're a very mixed bag genetically at best, but ethnically they're an extremely coherent thing & over an exceptionally long time. the problem is when you say "PALESTINIANS" have lived on the land for so - (cont.)

The greatest Jew - Jesus - predicteed that Jerusalem would, some day, no longer be "downtrodden" by the gentiles! LUKE 24:21. Many Christians believe that!Why should Jews give up their sacred city? H L Wipprecht

Howdy Swiss (Dino); I hate to have to inform you of this but climbing a 4,000 m. mountain in the late fall is not a "short hiking trip"--that is a major mountain climbing expedition. You take care now! We don't want to hear that you fell into a crevasse or got buried in an avalanche. Good luck and enjoy the view.

"in general you are correct that aggression against Israel was primarily by other Arab nations. However, I`m afraid it doesn`t get us very far. In my previous post I ALSO cited the problem of Hamas (the duly elected representatives of the Palestinian people) who officially refuse to recognize Israel`s right to exist." - Yitz Yitz, it is wrong to blame the occupation on the Palestinians. Until 1992 Israel wanted to hold on to the Territories for ideological reasons, regardless of any Palestinian activity. The First Intifada changed some Israeli minds, but only some. Viewing the Present, you want to blame the Present situation for past occupation. No can do. Hamas was created by the Occupation, and the Palestinians have a right to resist. But now that we created the monster, we have to deal with it. I don't want now to talk about future peace, but just as Man created for himself a bad present, he can create a better future. It requires wisdom. I have spoken enough about Hamas here. Tired of it now.

The Arabs of colonial Palestine didn`t start calling themselves "Palestinians" until the early 1960`s. You foolishly misuse SNP genetic markers to establish "race" - a political, not a scientific term. All modern humans are genetically so similar that if we were trout or butterflies, our so-called "races" would not even rate separate write-ups.." - Dr. Brnd I was actually surprised to get such an ignorant post from Dr. Brnd. I once thought you might be a medical doctor, but this theory is out. I thought you might be in science/technology. Perhaps, but then you know nothing of DNA. Similarity is quantifiable. And DNA permits measurements that could be extremely precise. It will tell you that humans are similar (genetically) to each other more than to chimps, but it can also tell you clearly, as I said, that "Genetically, European Jews and Palestinians are closer to each other than to Arabs in Arabia or to Europeans." I was not discussing politics so much as genetic facts. You can now make this politically significant or not, as you wish. The argument that Palestinian Arabs did not see themselves as a separate people until recently is political. Go ahead and carry on. I objected to false statements involving genetic origins.

Why my fellow Jewish Nationalist are you so silent on the actual article. Your silence as well as Danites is just deafening. Never minf that Danite was Ben Guriona/Toseftas Girlfriend. Now You just make common Cause. Nauseating Alliance. Nauseating Silence. Meisels keeps the flames of antisemitism going and you and Danite purport to fight it. What Nonsense.

There are places of Jewish interest all over the world. i.e. Poland, Berlin, New York, Iraq, Egypt, etc., but Jews do not claim sovereignty over them. As long as the sites of Jewish interest in Jerusalem continue to be administered by Jews and Jews have free access to them then I'm OK with ceding the territories where these sites are located if it truly leads to a resolution of the conflict.

Why indeed. Neither Hamas nor Fatah wants a two state solution. Have we not internalized that YET?

Indy, you're so full of shit, you're vomiting it in droves. Get a wheelbarrow and use it for fertilizer.

Please, tell us all about Capetown. Your history seems similar to USA and our Indians, yes?

Unfortunately for you,not everybody subscribes to your view that he is the son of God.He himself referred to abba in a general way(that being the jewish word for father).Only the christian community worships him as God.Both islam and judaism view him as a prophet.BTW have you read that lovely story by D.H.Lawrence The Man Who Died ? My question concerning non believers,the christian zionists believe that all who do not convert to christianity will roast in hell! Also,I personally do not like any of the monotheistic faiths because they are androcentric and anthropocentric.

All those who rationalize their possessiveness like "I remember something like cutting hand and tongue...", sitting in good old US, too, are guided not so much by the religious motives as by the conjuncture realization that the big bit already in one's mouth can be swallowed together with the smaller one still outside, without biting it all in the middle. Absolute majority of Jerusalemites haven't been to East the side, and ride daily the road ironically called "Kvish Shalom" dividing the two halves (Peace Road N°1) as if there were only 3 cardinal points in the Holy Land mental geography. The notorious stinky highway symbolically runs along the dividing limit rather than from one side to another. How cheapened is both religion and Jerusalem by such arguments. Reminds me this saying: "Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon".

Security Council cannot decided on borders! Re: the Mandate.Let me start all over again.The UN inherited the powers of the League of Nations on the question of Palestine.The Mandate is a Trust and a Trust does not end till both beneficiaries benefit(not relevant that Arabs rejected 181 in 1947).Trustee and judge can change but the Trust itself is not extinguished until both beneficiaries benefit.Ergo,the 181 is still in the books and legally is the only authorised border between israel & Palestine.

There is what the Islam called 'the black stone' which is part of the Kabba. In their own admisson this black stone which is the the most holy to them, from the cave where Ibraham used to have his prayers. That makes that stone the proparty of us,his children. We are entitled to that stone and we must ask for its return to us. It worth more than their entire Oil.

Sir, Thank you for giving me a chance to become nice again. Are you, by chance product of Rudolf Steiner educational insights? ps. Don't you use both eyes and legs? Or you keep patch over your right eye and ambulate by jumping on your left leg to keep your left "wing" credentials? Be well.

Palestinian state.However,those who are living illegally there and in settlements (illegally)cannot retain them. Secondly,it is up to the new Palestinian state to decide whether they want to be a quasi Islamic state,just as israel is now a jewish state where Palestinian Arabs are second class citizens(they have to live in certain areas,jews get more funding for schools,Arabs cannot own land etc;this discrimination is built into the laws.israel does not have a Constitution that guarantees equal rights to all citizens regardless of race,religion,gender,ethnicity etc.)

Pasah seder in her life.. No surprise the Left never knew their left from their right..

The fact that the dome of the rock is THERE offends all Jews everywhere. It belongs elsewhere like Mecca and Medina. It is an abomination to all who visit Jerusalem. In the book of Daniel, it is refered to as the Abomination of desolations. Quite apt, I'd say. Take your racial bigoted cupcake with you when you go. And, it will go.

Howdy Tosefta; The point is that nobody today is trying to resurrect the recommendation of the General Assembly contained in UNGAR 181 for a corpus separatum of the "Territory of Jerusalem" consisting of about 177 sq. Km. in area. Although there were some feeble attempts by the UN General Assembly to revive the idea before 1950, its implementation was contingent upon the agreement of both Israel and Jordan who were both vehemently opposed to the suggestion. It took awhile, but eventually the UN realized that the corpus-separatum idea was impractical due to the opposition to it of the two principle parties and it has not been seriously put forward by any UN resolution since 1949. Perhaps the international community originally kept their embassies in Tel Aviv in the hope that Jerusalem would be "internationized", but today the reason is because the status of the city has not been bilaterally agreed to by Israel and the Palestinians.

hi, - the issue of the location of the 2nd temple is interesting & i've no opinion /comment on that. it may /may not be as you claim, ok? but your other claim of making a parallel between 1st century jewish zealotry & the attempts at the time to "liberate" jerusalem & today's issue of jewish sovereignty over it seems to be a bit far-fetched. i'm in principle for a division of the city within a solid final agreement betw. the pals & the israelis. but it can't be argued the way you do. there was no political jewish sovereignty in the land in 1st century. this exists now (& DID exist before), so there's no question of an armed revolt against an occupat. power holding the land of israel, incl. jerusalem, the way it was at the time of the zealots. furthermore, there's no necessary opposition between the spiritual condition & the political needs of the nation, the way things stand today. both can be emphasized at the same time. finally you've got the bibl. promises of jews' return..

A secular newspaper is rendering halackic issues? What gives?

Surely not on this planet.

:)

Funny stuff of a kind you can only find in the pages of the Ha'aretz. I can't remember having read in the Torah "I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; except for East Jerusalem, which I shall bequeath to the kindred of Ishmael?. Maybe, I've got the wrong edition ? By the way, I am sure that more detailed instructions about the ownership of Jerusalem can be found in any good edition of the Koram.

No commandment? It doesn't matter, Jews' brain can create another one: called SETTLEMENTS. And the commandment would be complete forever.

make me nauseous.

Howdy Lakshmi; "The Security Council does not have the authority to decide on borders.That is the province of the General Assembly." Neither UN body has the authority to decide on permanent borders. What the Security Council did was to endorse the bilateral Armistice Agreements between Israel and Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon and the provisional armistice lines of 1949. It did not decide them and neither did it do so with UNSCR 242 in 1967. The only authority that the General Assembly had was to change the terms of the Mandate. Everything in UNGAR 181 which referred to matters after the Mandate ended including the partition plan was a recommendation only and not a decree. UNGARs carry no legal weight outside of the duration of a mandate.

....to our beautiful mountains. I will try to respond later in the day. P.S. I am sure some of you might hope that I won't come back anymore.... Wishful thinking, wishful thinking, it's not gonna be a 4'000 meter "giant".... But keep your fingers crossed...:)

Elias Khoury, I continue to believe and hope for a two-state solution for our people and yours. Israel would be "drowned" in a one-state reality, and Jews cannot accept that. The greatest stumbling-block is when folk begin quoting from their holy books, as if dogmatic edicts are the ultimate truth, and that holds for old and new Testaments as well as the Koran. All the worst contradictions and threats come from that. We must learn to deal with the here and now, and create peace for what we are today, not unremittingly what was. Don't bring the holy books to the negotiating table, bring reasonable people...

You might want to check the new Resolution presented to the UN by the OIC. Basically it states that religion should outweigh Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press. Very Islamic indeed.

Does it really matter who conquered what 5000 years ago? The Persians conquered Greece, is anyone still upset? The Ottomans conquered Spain, so what? This is just plain stupid.

There are many countries which are landlocked. It surely isn't the end of the world for them. If there were a contiguous Pal State, there would also be a peaceful one hopefully. Transportation and shipping is big business. Could help the Pal economy. Do you see any further then the present conflict?

Yitz, on the whole condone what you say re Hamas, but, quoting you: "...because they have real power that is uniquely Palestinian and not artificially propped up by the West." Well, Hamas may not be propped up by the West, but it is definitely propped up by Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, and even Al-Quaeda... so that needs deep consideration by Israel when striking any deal.

For Israel, that's a different story. He enjoys preaching to the Jews, -taking a holier-than-thou attitude and shaking his finger in their faces. For Israel he's a left-winger, encouraging them to go on paths that might damage them to satisfy his secret knowledge that Jews are after all ... just Jews.

if it suited their purpose. They are not the most honest or brightest stars in the firmament. I see you have stopped talking to yourself.

...of course Danite is not a "right-winger". I would rather call him a "pseudo-moderate". Our good Danite surely talks the talk, but I'm afraid if it would come hard to hard, he would prefer not to walk the walk..... In order to put not at risk his "friendships"...

cover proclaims: "Jesus...The Name that is Above Every Name" This is taught throughout the Christian world without further explaination. That is why in my prior post to lakshami which Haaretz did not post, I attempted to clarify that the quote from Isaiah is Handel's Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth. However, what language we call to Him in is NOT important compared to the Word we attribute to Him. As I have said many times before, it is the word that sanctifies the Name, not the Name that sanctifies the word. This should be clarified in the Christian realm, where they often sing songs like this, otherwise you have people arguing over linguistics instead of understanding the meaning of the phrase, ie., Messiah's Word is above every others; It is the Word of God that is our salvation. Then I asked lakshami to define "zionist" and "Infidel"

To my knowlede Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Koran.Why should then this city be divided? There are Mosquesin Jerusalem as well as Churches and Synagogues.There is again no reason to divide Jerusalem. Muslim have Mekka and Medina as thei Holy Cities where, by the way ,non Muslim are not allowed to enter .This shows great respect for others. During all the centuries of Muslim rule over Jerusalem , this city had never any religious political or cultural importance but suddenly now. And to conclude it is Israel which was attacked by Arab countries in 1948 and not the contrary. Ralph

Correct, Cipora, what a (sad) world this would be without our (Israeli)"right-wingers". Who else could we blame for if things go wrong in this world...??? Who else could we blame for if we don't get our daily "ego-massage"...??? :) Long live right-wing Israel. Hurrah !!

uh oh, there he goes again, the arabist apologist braying with the swiss donkey...ahhhh the ears have grown and the transformation has begun. hehe, videogameboy,nada,irish rubbernecker, the swiss donkey and of course that shining star lockshen are quite the coterie.

I is obvious that Ruth has last her way - and like so many who do not understand nor believe in the prophets who clearly fortold that God would bring Israel back to their land in the last days. When people loose their way, alternatives and compromise take the place of absolutes. Ruth read Zachariah and Hosea just to refresh your thinking.

Gracious, me, finally a Jew who admits that biblical Israel was founded by conquest. Of course, no admission as yet that the Hebrew tribes wiped out their Canaanite brethren, or enslaved them, or drove them off their own lands - in order to take that land for themselves. I certainly do not expect such an admission; I am rather astounded that any Jew would have the courage to acknowledge that Jerusalem used to be Jebus, before King David completed the conquest of Canaan.

17, actually I was thinking long and hard whether I should mention your name as one of the few (right-wing) exceptions with regard to "charme" and "humour". But then I decided that after your little "back- stabber" from the day before yesterday you really wouldn't deserve a praise.... Lesson 1 of my (Swiss) educational system: You always have to earn future "praises". Or in other words, only "good behaviour" will be rewarded...:) P.S. A copy of this post should go to Israels political establishment, thanks for the courtesy, Haaretz.

The stolen City

I get the distinct impression that anyone who does not massage your ego is by definition a right-winger.

So, what is the point of talking to them, if they do not want a two state solution?