Why Israel does not engage with the Saudi initiative

a children's book, in fact. Notice how you weren't able to address any of the adult questions ask, for instance, by Kath. Ones such as discussing bilateral compensation claims for the 472,000 Arab refugees from Israel and 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands. You need neither a lawyer nor an assistant, but rather a puppy trainer.

Admission to the UN is not based on promises, on conditions, etc....Admission is based exclusively on the requirements of Article 4. Your unending attempts to undermine Israel's very existence is staggering in the ill will it manifests.

"I see that you need a defense lawyer." - Dense Bird from Outerspace I suggested to you time and again to refrain from reading people's minds. We don't have antennas here, and humans do not think the way Martians do, so you are out of your element. Earthlings who need a lawyer get one, and this is expected. What I actually need is not a lawyer but an assistant. I find it distasteful to speak to the slow and brainblocked. I want to say things ONCE and move on. Of course, once is not enough for ccomprehension and intelligence challenged like yourself and Jeff. To drill the message in, I need somebody with the knowledge and enthusiasm to do repeat it several times. Johnboy shows such attributes, and I hope to collaborate with him in the future.

I don't believe the issue is cut and dry. If a country is found to have acted in "bad faith", the priviliges it obtained thru is "bad-faith commitment" may be withdrawn. I am talking about an actual resolution by the GA that israel acted in bad faith, not on "presumption" of good faith. As I said to Jeff Northridge, and not for the first time, "I am sure they will need a legal advice on this, but the ICJ which is their legal councel may agree." Once the issue is before the ICJ, nobody can predict what the outcome will be, But as an Israeli I would have to be worried.

(a) About the status of Israeli passports, then take it and go to any non-European country, preferably, third-world ex-colonized state. [In a European country you need to feel it] (b) Your question "Are you an Indian or a Muslim from India" does NOT make sense! A Muslim from India is ALSO an Indian. I am a Hindu (with a tilt towards the Advaita school - if u know what it means). From this viewpoint, the three Old Testament Religions - Islam, Christianity & Judaism are basically the same religion. The difference between them are so minimal that this battle looks sooo stupid. (You may argue that Christianity is a bit different - but Judeo-Islamic metaphysics & moral code is difficult to separate) Buy a mirror and look at yourselves...

Elias Sorry ole fellow.You can try and manoeuvre all you want it does not prove anything you said. You are of the seed of Christ?Heaven's above Elias!Are going to begin and blaspheme the name of Jesus and apportioning yourself with our Blessed Jesus the Jew? Shame on you,and repent! I cannot believe what you wrote to Jeff. Only today Sunday,read your post.And find it a loathsome. Jesus was a Jew,and the rest for which I wrote on many occasions needs not repeating. So Elias,rather than prolonging this short epistle,and propitiate the Love of God and Jesus I'll finish it thus: Kyrie Eleison Per Dominum Nostrum One God Lord of the Universe AMEN

A RARE PIECE OF TRUTHFUL REALISM

Olmert already mentioned counter proposal and the chairman of Arab League agreed to look at it. I am not sure what counter proposal should be but it should definitely cover all claims to Arabs that started the cycle of wars in a first place. So far Israel hesitates to do so.

Indian Yes you err.I have yet to hear what your despicable accusation on the "spitting" to an Israeli passport.You are talking utter rubbish, and in effect know it well. As for lakshmi's not replying to this,perhaps for once thought the accusations toward India's poverty and discrimination of the poor,and on the reverse side the "filthy rich",which is a fact to be considered,so fit not to respond. Conversely,your feelings sound not just hollow,but,I wonder if you are an Indian,rather than a Muslim from India???

Mireya Exactly!But they forget and only focus on this small and tiny democratic country Israel. We Jews and Israel are treated as "sacrificial lambs"for the slaughter house.A very easy target,are we not? Muchas Gracias

I am sure Israel will pay a relatively small share of the cost of resettling the refugees. Tosefta. By the same token,when will Arab countries compensate the Jewish refugees who fled from those various countries who oppressed the Jews leaving behind all their goods and chattels? They certainly owe much to our people. Any thoughts on that Tossi? Surely it bears thinking about it.Or do you only favour a one way compensation? And fact these refugees who fled at the behest of their Arab brethren it should be their responsibility to offer compensation. Israel is already discussing with the Arabs the Saudi initiative.(Tosefta)ans say it is an important offer.(Tosefta) Really? beg to differ here.It is not only ?poison pill? but a poison challis that will never be an acceptable formulation. If Olmert falls for this offer you will see a torrent of abuse and he?ll be thrown out of office as sure as ?night follows day?

So true, Mr. Strenger, thanks! Why to be so afraid of the truth indeed?

Lakshmi decided to be silent on you. SO I decided to reply on her behalf.After all my parents live in Calcutta :-) How is that, today, if you go to a country with an Indian passport, you are treated with respect whereas if you go with an Israeli passport you are spat upon. How is it that Indian economy is growing at 8% to the extent that American companies are funding Indian operations more than their own countries.. Now, you too can join us if you decide to take the modernization train - be global and treat a human being as one and stop begging the American taxpayer at regular intervals.

NYer, I should have thanked YOU not Rolf for the Time mag. article. Rolf, WHAT interview, please? NYer. Kindly investigate the myth of "Making the Desert Bloom." There was lots of agriculture BEFORE Jews bought land in Palestine. Jaffe oranges were known in 19th century Europe. Granted, draining the swamps was not a small affair. (See Flapan.) But what is your point? Bec. the Jews worked hard and well, they had the right to someone else's land? (I am not talking about what they bought)

Did anyone check my sources (Le Monde in English and Flapan)? Both state categorically that the New Historians went through hours of radio broadcasts of the time and found NOTHING to support claims that the Arab High Command ordered departure. However, out of the almost 400 villages Goldman studied, 6 Village Leaders ordered departure. Conclusion: Propaganda that worked. A prominent Palestinian (sorry no name) says he has looked for a "quote" he supposedly made which spread like wildfire. He never found the source... So I am wary of strange quotes... I knew the ICRC delegate who was on the scene of Deir Yassin... Give me the EXACT ref of the BBC interview where Nusseibi says it was a lie. One of you gives the same info. of a BBC interview by Husseini's nameless right hand man. William. Tunisia. I wouldn't know. I gave my experience and sources. To be honest, I have only read Flapan's book + Le Monde. None of you cited sources except Roif. (Thanks, Roif)

Great post!!!

Strenger's article reveals is personal guilt for childhood conflicts he never worked out. He then projects his personal guilt upon Israel. The true guilt belongs to the Arabs that have tried to destroy Israel from the time the UN accepted Israel into the UN Nations. All the Arabs ha to do was accept the samll partition, but they refuse, and instead of building there own state which they new they were uncapable of doing, they attacked Israel and the Jewish People. The Palestinian Arab brothers have not accepted and integrated their own people. This is the root of the problem. The Full 100% guilt belongs on the Moslems and Arabs because they prefer to try to destroy Israel rather than build there own state, and integrate their own people. They are very incapable of anything, so they prefer to blame the Jews, and a few Jews like Strenger that suffer severe emotonal problems accept this, and those with this illness andaffliction gather together at Universities.

No small mystery, of course, since it seems to be the only one he has. coz: "and that from an australian.a country that sends its soldiers thousands of miles away to kill innocent iraqi civilians" And I decry that act by our current - and mendacious - Federal Govt, and have since the idea was first mooted. How does that affect the morality of Israel's actions, coz? Illegal and/or immoral acts by one country justifies illegality or immorality from another? coz: "we fight our enemy at our doorstep" Yes, apparently so, says coz. But Israel's one saving grace is its laziness; it only fights people if it doesn't have to go far from home to do so. Bravo, coz! THAT's changed my entire view of the brave, brave (but ultimately rather lazy) marmongering decision-makers that currently rule this zionist regime. Wonderful chappies, every last one o' 'em.

JN: "Come up with different plan and we`ll take a look at it," You really DON'T know how these things are done, do you? The Saudis have put up a planned agenda for talks. If Israel doesn't like it then the next step is HERS i.e. SHE says "No" and SHE comes up with a "different plan". Instead, Israel is demanding what you are demanding - a precondition before Israel will agree to talks. Your arrogance is breathtaking, and matched only by your ignorance on how diplomacy is conducted. JN: "but if it tries to change the status of the Green Line from that of an armistice line to a border, no" Then you are in for a disappointment. Israel has not said "NO" to the Saudi Plan, no matter what you insist. They are attempting to force changes to it, and will fail. Israel will either crumple and agree, or there will be war. I know which one YOU prefer, but I suspect cooler heads will prevail inside Israel itself.

The article is plain nonsense. FullStop. It's childish to think that after Israel "recognize" (falsely, because it's not true at all) that created the Palestinian refugees, they are going to cry and hug Israel and let it live in Peace. And everybody lived happily for ever after ...

those obligations". Interesting discussion here,and perhaps I can give my two cents, even though I have no legal background or as strong logical sense as some other posters. But it seems that the key terms under Article 4 of the Charter, "and is able" with reference to Israel's admittance as being a "peace-loving state" is the detrimental criterion for it to have carried out its U.N. stipulated obligations. Perhaps Israel has not been able to carry out what it intended as a result of unacceptance as a Jewish state amongst its neighbouring non-democratic Arab nations and the 1948 refugees (later called the Palestinians who resorted to terror, deteriorating all trust). How can one take the U.N.'s literal legal translation when Israel was not able to exist freely as a "peace-loving state"? Tosefta, I very much agree with Cipora's arguments in #246 post...not the " you are truly shameless" part though. She sounds very persuasive indeed. There's no merit to add to admonish Israel.

and that from an australian.a country that sends its soldiers thousands of miles away to kill innocent iraqi civilians. we fight our enemy at our doorstep.

I hope this is not the dominant thinking in Israel. You can afford to display hubris when you are armed and rich, but you might be internally weakened. Israel is strong because of US cash, weapons and political support; and the US is a declining superpower. The question is when the US will go the way of former imperial powers Spain, Rome and Britain. When that happens, Israel will have few friends and plenty of victims ready to pay back.

Howdy Johnboy; As far as I'm concerned, you can take your Arab Ultimatum and Capitulation Plan for Israel of 2007 and shove it. The Arabs are in no position to be making demands of Israel. The Arab Ultimatum contains no guarantee that the extra-governmental Palestinian militant/terrorist groups would abide by any permanent agreement with Israel. Indeed, Hamas has repeatedly stated that they will never recognize Israel within any borders whatsoever and will not stop their Jihad to "liberate" all of Palestine except for some half-assed hudnas once in awhile. The point is that recognition by and normalization of relations with the members of the Arab League does not ensure peace for Israel. Shoot, those countries can't even control the Islamic extremists in their own countries much less those in the Palestinian Territories. Come up with different plan and we'll take a look at it, but if it tries to change the status of the Green Line from that of an armistice line to a border, no

You argue that Abba Eban made a committment to the committee determining if Israel is a peace-loving country. The committee noted this, as did the GA Resolution accepting Israel into the UN. You think - correctly IMHO - that Israel is bound by committments she makes, and she can not now say: "Abba Eban had his fingers crossed behind his back". Which IS the essense of the counter argument: he uttered those words to get Israel into the UN, and once in it is impossible for the UNGA to get them out again - so Israel doesn't HAVE to live up to them. Depressing because they are probably correct; International relations works on the principle of "good faith" i.e. that countries *AGREE* that they are bound by the committments they make. Your opponents are basically crowing that Israel can act in "bad faith" and the UNGA can't do anything about it. They are probably right, but it reflects nothing but shame on Israel. But, unfortunately, they are beyond shame. And so is Israel.

... Israel is screwed in the brain.

Hungarian bloggers should rcognize the Naqba caused when they came in the tenth century to Pannonia. American bloggers should recognize the Naqba caused to Native Americans. Latin American bloggers should recognize a similar Naqba. Cubans should recognize the Naqba of the Siboney, Taino and Wanahatabey. Swedes sjould recognize the Finnish Naqba they caused, and Brittons the Falklands Naqba. Iraqis should recognize the Kurdish Naqba, and Australians their aboriginal Naqba. So New Zealanders with the Maori Naqba. And all the world should recognize the Naqba they have caused for two millenia .and counting- against the Jewish people: Murdered, tortured, burned and disposessed; exiled, massacred, gassed and shot, burned in crematoria. Therafter, we could start focusing on one of the whole world's Naqba, the Palestinian one. And see what the role of their leaders has been.

I see that you need a defense lawyer. Your histrionics are not getting you anywhere with the "world." Obviously, no one can defend the indefensable. Keeping people, their children, their grandchildren, and great-grandchildren as refugees for sixty years as eternal refugees is immoral and reprehensible.

You want documentation, ask the Arabs themselves. AThe referenced article quotes Arabs who clearly state that they were told to leave by their Arab brothers in order to allow them to destroy the Jews, and when they came back, they would have all of Israel. Note many of these people were not indigenous to the territory, they have fabricated lies. The land of Israel was quite bare for thousnads of years until the Jews came back and it blossomed. Funny how the great Rabbinic Scholar Nahcmanides documents this and prohecies this concept in his Biblical discussion in Leviticus. Oh, by the way, he lived in the 13th Century and migrated to Israel at the end of his life when he was forced to flee the Arab rulers who wanted to kill him because he was such a brilliant scholar. Guess things haven't changed.

Howdy Bruce; So, what do you call a list of non-negotiable demands issued by the Arab League with statements like "this is Israel's last chance for peace" and "if Israel does not 'accept' the provisions prior to negotiations about details, then there will be a major escalation of violence'? I call that an ultimatum. I agree that Israel should make a counter-proposal though. At least we'll able to see how far apart the two side are.

Johnboy, I have been waiting for you all day long. Can you help explain to Jeff Northridge, our Slapstick artist, how it is that Israel's admission to the UN is conditioned on its obligation made with respect to GA Resolution 194 (refugees)? Same logical and legal understanding problem is afflicting our Martian Bird Cipora JK. See their posts #163 and #246 and my various replies #202,257, etc. At this late hour, they haven't absorbed the logic of it. Perhaps you can develop a more effective approach than me. The World will be thankful to you. Tosefta

P.S. The typos were intentional

you left off "WINGAND RABID"

No sooner than Turkish oppression was lifted than the Middle East was raped and pillaged by the West. Parts were given away with no compensation. All sorts of devious devices eg Sultanic law are stealing what land the Palestinians had left. See, I have to apologise for both of you! As for UN resolutions, cherry picking would be a polite description of Israel?s attitude to UN resolutions. Israel should settle for 67 borders and the West should adequately compensate the dispossessed as they created the dispossession to salve their guilt. A good Muslim, Christian or Jew must forgive if adequate redress is made. Why is this not the answer?

I appreciate your attempt to sound sohpisticated, but bottom line, the Middle-East is a hotbed of fanatisicm. When one refers to the death of the Zionist Regime, it means dead Jews. How else can it happen? What, you think someone will walk in and convince the Jews to happily leave Israel? Get real. Statements from people like you, who have the wool over their eyes is what causes so much death and destruction of Jews. I believe in Jews first. Arabs have yet to prove they are civilized. No Nakba is worth the types of murderous and vile actions (dipping their hands in blood, encouraging kids to kill themselves so that they can get to have virgins in paradis -- absolutely repulsive). The world would be better of without Islam. It has contributed nothing as far as I am concerned to the advancement of society. It's too bad there are so many Jews like that are apologists for Islam and the Arabs. That doesn't help them or Jews. Sadly the Palestinians are just pawns in a culture of death.

JN: "It has been studied since it was first proposed in 2002 and has been rejected by Israel" Israel has rejected it? Pigs ass they have; they have refused to commit to it. Olmert refuses to accept *or* reject it unless HIS preconditions are met. JN: "Israel can live without Arab recognition" It can not leave in peace without arab recognition. Or haven't you noticed? JN: "It is the permanent cessation of hostilities from any source that Israel wants and the Arab Ultimatum does not guarantee that." Ahh, you have noticed. I understand now; the Saudi Plan is not worthwhile if it doesn't include Iran, Russia, China, and the Cocos Islands. Rubbish. Recognition and normalization with all the Arab countries ensures peace for Israel into the forseeable future. Still not good enough for you, hey? Maybe you have...another...agenda in mind, perhaps? Something along the lines that "peace" is not as important as "piece"? Piece of land, that is.

I am happy to debate this with you William as "jaw, jaw is better than war, war" but I have trouble understanding your response. Explain what you mean by "so why now". In all times in all places there have been conflicts between peoples but the more civilised countries have learned to sort out their international problems in a diplomatic manner. The fact that you two peoples are genetic brothers does not seem to matter in the uncivilised discourse between yourselves nowadays. I can understand that Israel is a nation created from the Holocaust and thus has behavioural problems due to national posttraumatic stress disorder but you need to understand that the people of Palestine suffered hundreds of years of brutal Turkish oppression. It was mainly the Ottomans who persecuted the Jews.

I guess there was no casus belli... Egypt never interfered with Israeli maritime rights and launched fedayeen attacks? Jordan never attacked Israel in a way that would cost it the West Bank? Syria never provoked Israel into war costing it the Golan heights? Leftists once again blaming the victims of aggression...

I love the personal attacks I get.It shows all the HATE that exists in the right towards anyone who disagrees with their self serrving narrations and religious beliefs.I guess people in the Bronze age had all the answers?Anyone who buys this CRAP that G*D is a racist favorable to only jews and that he doesnt mind the brutality in the name of living Jews being able to live in a certain area.Religion is always perverted by those who claim to KNOW what G*D wants, strange it always favors their own people?!Whoever thinks that they're the chosen people, dont believe in evolution, believe the world is 5000 years old, that dinosaaurs are about as old, cain kiling able was the 1st murder in the world, jonah lived in a belly of a whale, the great flood caused the grand canyon, rivers above and below the earth, witches and slew of other BS! religion is guide how to live, not an excuse to oppress a whole people and deny them human rights, free movement and a viable state of their own. SHAME!!!

Steven correctly says, "the Palestinians voted in Hamas, a group that claims in English and Arabic that they will never accept Israel." However, it is Israel who by their every act of occupation, aggression, and 'facts on the ground' says loudly, although deceptively, "we will never accept Palestine." Now truly, who would you prefer to deal with: Hamas who honestly states their beliefs, or the Israelis who are totally lie about their beliefs?

From UNGA Resolution 273 (III): "Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 and 11 December 1948 and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representatives of the Government of Israel before the Ad Hoc Political Committee in respect of the IMPLEMENTATION of the said resolutions, The General Assembly Acting in discharge of its functions under Article 4 of the Charter and rule 125 of its rules of procedure, 1. Decides that Israel is a peace-loving State which accepts the obligations contained in the Charter and is able and willing to carry out those obligations; 2. Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations." "Israel did not obligate itself to anything. UNGAR 194, being a General Assembly resolution, has no binding effect." - Bird from Outerspace Of course Israel did obligate itself to a few matters regarding the refugees, and I highlighted one word for you. As I recall you read and perhaps even remember what Israel promised. That GA resolutions are not obligatory in general was "known" also when Israel was discussing their IMPLEMENTATION prior to its admittance to the UN. But Israel felt it should make the obligation. I am not going to argue more about the obvious, and will let Johnboy have some fun with you. Had you been an Earthling you would certainly have been classified as some sort of a wishful-thinker/idiot or the like. Fortunately, Martians are not expected to think along Earthly lines. Good excuse.

A morally corrupt government, that kicks Jews out of their homes, is involved in fraud and murky business deals, is all we have to show for this new-age thinking by Mr. Strenger. Mr. Sternger, you are unfortunately looking at today's picture, and forget history. Back in 1967, no one was crying for the Arabs who tried to wipe out the Jews. Sure, their state is pitiful, but who's to blame? Why haven't Arabs taken them in? I'll tell you why, because everyone hates Palestenians. Talk to Egyptian, Syrian and other cabbies in NY and they'll tell you that. But don't blame the Jews, who were just defending themselves. If winning results in someone losing, sure, I'll take responsibility for winning, but not for a "Nakba," the catastrophe is of the Arabs' making, someone needs to help them and stop using the Palestenians for despicable purposes. Also, u can't make peace with one who wishes to destroy you on religious grounds. Such zeal is too powerful, and will always remain, Islam is corrupt.

Howdy Tosefta; In order to be "fair", the former Jewish refugees or their heirs will have to be compensted for their property losses too. I'm sure that Israel is open to the idea of compensating the Palestinian refugees or their descendants for their property losses provided that 1) they actually did own property and were not just tenent farmers living on somebody else's land, 2) the applicant was not an absentee landlord who had his property forfeited due to failure to pay taxes on it, and 3) that the Jewish refugees be compensated simulataneously on a pair-wise reciprocal basis. However, Israel is not compelled to do so because of a dead UNGAR 194, but because it would the right thing to do. The trouble is that the Arab states are not likely to agree to compensate the Jewish refugees for their property losses and each case would have to be checked out by an independent court to see if the claim was valid or bogus. It's best to just call it even and forget about it.

Most of us have access to the UNSC version, but I see that you have the "edited" version put out just for the zionists. Coz: "the west bank is the subject of negotiations" Well, I'm looking at MY copy of 242, and the word "negotiate" is not the operative word with respect to the land Israel has under occupation. The operative word in MY version is "withdraw". Yours says "negotiate", does it? Res 242 is crafted so that the avenue of a negotiated land swap is not closed off (saying "the territories" would), sure. But that is not the same as saying 242 gives Isreal the right to demand she be allowed to keep some of the land before she hands over the rest. Caradon's comments show this is exactly why it was crafted this way; Israel can seek a land-swap, but it can't demand that as the price of the end of occupation. Because Res 242 says that if the land is occupated then Israel needs to "withdraw", it doesn't say she has to "negotiate".

I saw you had your hands quite full there. Neither you nor I have any illusions about some of these self-styled "critics of Israeli policy." Their issue is not Israeli policy or Israel itself--their issue is with Jews. But the fact that one of them has the stupidity to refer to it as the Judeo-Christian tradition, as if the two faiths are the same, only underlines her own Indian ignorance of Judaism. It is also amusing to see Dana try to paint a picture of US foreign policy as being dictated by AIPAC. Truly simplistic and convenient in all it overlooks, such as the US presence in the Central Asian republics, the US relationship to the Saudis...more than that, China's reasons for blocking UN condemnation of Sudan. Oil and gas. Dana conveniently neglects how our own leftists were shouting against US foreign policy built around oil--I recall this distinctly as the cries I heard from them when I joined them in protesting against the Iraq war.

This article does not explore any new view. Same old view - Punish Israel, have her admit some mea culpa confessional and Arab pride will be partly restored. The truth is Israel won many wars - '48, '67,'73 and Arab governments have yet to admit defeat, To move forward they must admit truth - they lost - now move on and forward. Don't keep living in past with hopes to refight these wars. Start telling the people the truth and stop poisoning your people with hatred. Peace has a chance if they see the truth and don't look for more hudnas.

You need not worry, Bruce. Already in 1949 Israel said that the Arab states who started the war must share the responsibility. I am sure Israel will pay a relatively small share of the cost of resettling the refugees. One thing it will not be able to shirk is compensating Arabs for their land (which it already obligated itself to in 1949). The land was taken over by the state but still in existence. The old value will have to be paid, I imagine. P.S. Israel is already discussing with the Arabs the Saudi initiative. It is an important offer, and with the absence of another avenue for progress on peace talks, it finally dawned on Olmert that he must pursue this.

Israel did not obligate itself to anything. UNGAR 194, being a General Assembly resolution, has no binding effect. The refugee issue can only be solved by giving the refugees, who have been kept in refugee camps for sixty years by their loving brothers, civil and political rights in their host countries. The Palestinian refugee issue has been kept alive artificially, and immorally, for the sole purpose of denying Israel legitimacy in the Arab world. Like most ideas based on immoral purposes, it is backfiring on those who have hatched it. Nor can the Arabs, despite their wealth and power, continue to hoodwink the entire world into thinking that Palestinian refugees, out of all the refugees in the world, should be treated specially. No amount of propaganda can hide the very ugly fact that supposedly five million people are registered as Palestinian refugees sixty years after their grandparents, or great-grandparents became refugees.

IF YOU WER EDUCATEDYOU WOULD FIND THAT I AM ALWAYS RIGHT

NO NGEL THEY ARE NOT HISTORIANS BUT INVENTORS OF EVENTS

Tell that to the Arabs. What is all the "must be" stuff?

If Israel obligated herself to do something it is fine with me but I think Arab countries own some compensation for all their wars and hostilities to Israel as well.

It should not be viewed as an ultimatum. It is just a start of negotiations and nobody expects it to be accepted but everybody expects a counter proposal by Israel. Definitely Israel can't afford to take all the blame for the so called "nakba" simply because Israel didn't start the war.

keep up the good work.

1. You don't get it, Jeff. We are not talking about a "right of return" but of compensation. You are denying it, but Israel hAS OBLIGATED ITSELF to some parts of Res. 194, and the obligation is still there. I said it to you a few times, but you don't hear. ISRAEL HAS OBLIGATED ITSELF in 1949. Get it now? If you want to unblock your blockheadedness, you should take a sharp pencil and push it through your ear and into your brain. You will sacrifice the hearing in one ear, but it is well worth it. 2. When I tell you about refugees returning, you mention such situations as North Koreans fleeing to South Korea. They DON'T WANT to return. When the Communist regime falls, they might want to return. In the Israeli case, I am not going to help you in learning what Israel obligated itself to. Better do some reading. Regardless of that, there will probably be some number of people allowed to return as a show of good will. You don't understand the concept, and I prefer not to discuss it with you

Jeff, Tosefta understands it only too well. He is part of the well oiled propaganda machine.

If you have time, please take a look at my last posts on Bradley's last article, which deals with the psych-propaganda war against Israel. I shall post some more when possible. Regards

Howdy Bruce; "Israel should study Saudy initiative." It has been studied since it was first proposed in 2002 and has been rejected by Israel. "Saudy initiative represents Arabs point of view." It sure does, but call it by its proper name: The Arab Ultimatum and Capitulation Plan for Israel (2007). "Saudy Arabia is an Arab country involved in ME conflict and not an honest broker." Saudi Arabia has never been directly involved with hostilities with Israel, but the second half of the statement that Saudi Arabia (and the Arab League in general) is not an honest broker is true. "It should be understood by everybody." It is by everybody except you and Tosefta. "It is first sign of recognition of Israel." Israel can live without Arab recognition. It is the permanent cessation of hostilities from any source that Israel wants and the Arab Ultimatum does not guarantee that. "There is a long way of compromizes on both sides ahead." True.

I think Gaza underlines the failure that is Arab culture. Given the opportunity that was presented with Israel's withdrawal, the Palestinians had the perfect opportunity to show that they are serious about statehood. Instead of grabbing the chance, they elected murderous criminals into office and now they are spilling each other's blood. Not that I mind. If they choose to kill each other, that's their business. But between Gaza and Sunni and Shiite Arabs murdering each other in Iraq now, we in the West have to wonder if the problem is really the Israel-Palestine conflict or Arab social dysfunction.

I am glad to hear that Danite is only away on business and that his absence will be of short duration. Life's been hectic for me too, but I am back now.

"NO JUSTICE; NO PEACE" Funny hearing this from the same group that support blowing up unarmed civilians in markets and coffee shops, and using snipers to takeout Jewish children. Will Arabs return the whole state of Iran to its original Persian rulers? Will they return part of Northern Africa to the Moors, or recently, the Darfur lands taken?? I highly doubt it. Justice is subjective, and in as such, you (and all Arabs) must learn that waging war will not be met with flowers and forgiveness. Until today, NO Arab has accepted responsibility for attacks on Jews or dispelling 700K Jews in post-1948. There is massive proof of Israel offering compromises, and the Arabs choosing war instead. 1920s were full of Arab attacks, 1947 called for genocide of the Jews, 1967 were the 3 NOs in Khartoum - today Saudi passes a peace proposal and still funds a terror group which calls for the death of Israel and its people. The only justice you speak of is the one-sided justice where you win.

Your problem is not with facts, just timeline. "The Palestinians have been made sacrificial lambs to assuage the West?s guilt for centuries of endemic European anti Semitism that peaked in the Holocaust." Jewish immigration began over 50 years before WWII, and anti-semitism in the West has been around for almost 2000 years. So why now? Arabs also hated Jews, as was proven by the attack on civilians - noted in the Koran. Land may be granted by mandates, but are also won in wars - especially in not started by them. Arabs could have accepted 1947 UNR, but chose war. They demanded right of return, but not an end to hostilities. It is your apologists that cause this to continue, not Israel. Your thirst for oil and lack of facts.

Jason hello Where I am from is somewhere in Israel.Whole family been there since before Israel's inception.Direct descendants from the original Pioneers who worked the land and this family of mine are the true blue Israelis.Secular,but still very patriotic.I am out of the country at present,but for only a short spell.If this reply satisfies you I'd am glad for the information I am imparting to you. Have you not read my long post to Nick W?(was it)? That should give you an inkling of my background. Best regards to you and yours

Do you know the actual number? I doubt you do. The community was huge, with only a larger amount being in Jerusalem. Hebron has and still does hold extremely strong religious significance for Jews, which is why the community there was old and devout. Problem is...you think of them only as a "handful of Jews"....without acknowledging they were there undisturbed for over 1000 years. They were at peace with their neighbors, and even declined weapons to protect themselves because they trusted their Arab neighbors. For that, they were slaughtered, their houses stolen, and their synagogue turned into a toilet. If people who lived somewhere for hundreds of years have no rights in your mind, why do you demand rights for Arabs who have lived in the region for less than 10?

a thing about Judaism or Israel. Your opinions seem to result from the cloud of your own experiences, and massive Palestinian propaganda...but none of it seems to have any input from an actual conversation with an Israeli or Jew. While Jewish texts do make a distinction between Jews and non-Jews, it is mainly on the topics of the obligations of Jews (when to pray, 1 god only, etc.) and others. Nothing about being subhuman. Dhimmi means - paying taxes for protection, no access to certain jobs, and no right to buy land. You do not pay extra taxes (indeed some Arabs don't pay at all but receive services still), you can work in any job, and can buy land within reason...if you are a citizen. Much different than Jews in Arab lands, huh? As a Pal, I guess you accept responsibility for the atrocities against Jews up to 1948, that helped cause the Naqba? As for those Orthodox Jews, they are a minority and do not even like Israeli and non-Orthodox Jews, so we suffer this together it seems.

Just a lovely name you assumed yet such an ugly mindless lier. Nusseibeh, who is a member of one of Jerusalem's most prominent Arab families and presently lives in Amman, told the BBC that the fabricated atrocity stories about Dir Yassin were: "...our biggest mistake," because "Palestinians fled in terror" and left the country in huge numbers after hearing the atrocity claims

Dir Yassin served as halfway site for forces moving up from the Arab villages of Ein Karem and Malha in the south to Kastel and Kolonia, which overlooked the main Jerusalem - Tel Aviv road. On April 2, 1948, the Arab inhabitants of Dir Yassin began sniping at the Jewish Quarters of Bet Hakerem and Yefe Nof. According to reports by the Shai (Haganah Intelligence), fortifications were being constructed in the village and a large quantity of arms being stockpiled. Several days before the attack on Dir Yassin, the presence of foreign fighters was reported, including Iraqi soldiers and irregular forces. An Arab research study conducted at Bir Zeit University (near Ramallah) relates that the men of Dir Yassin took an active part in violent acts against Jewish targets and that many of the men of the village fought in the battle for Kastel, together with Abd-el-Kadr el-Husseini. The report also stated that trenches had been dug at the entry to the village, and that more than 100 men had been trained and equipped with rifles and Bren guns. A local guard force had been set up and 40 inhabitants guarded the village every night. On April 6, 1948, Operation Nachshon was launched by the Haganah with the aim of opening up the road to Jerusalem. The Palmach was part of this effort together with the Irgun (under Menachem Begin) and Lehi forces, their first combined operation. On Thursday, April 8, 1948 they launched an attack on Dir Yassin between 4 and 5 AM. A loudspeaker mounted on an armored car warned the Arabs and asked them to evacuate their women and children. Hundreds left, but hundreds stayed. A pitched battle ensued, and when the smoke cleared, 110 to 120 Arabs were killed, 40 Jews were seriously injured and four Jews were dead. The number killed has been confirmed even by Palestinian Arab researchers, such as Bir Zeit University professor Sharif Kanaana who puts the number no higher than 120 (although he clings to the claim of massacre). Another contemporary Arab source deflates the number killed to less than 100, stating, after a count, "that there were no more than 46 corpses". The head of the coroner unit, professor Yehoshua Arieli, testified that the number was 110. The village was not peaceful, but the essential part of this quote agrees with Jewish accounts. The massacre claim, meaning the killing of defenceless people, has long since been discredited by the Israeli government and every other historical study. The story persists because pro-Arab sources constantly repeat it, often inflating the number of dead to 250 or more. There are completely fictional accounts written about Arabs being marched to the mosque and shot against the walls, or even worse stories of torture, rape or any other shocking aspect the storyteller invents.:

WOW.I NEVER THOUGHT WE HAD SO MANY EXPERTS ON HISTORY ON THIS FORUM, THERE IS ENOUGH HERE TO WRITE ANOTHER HISTORY BOOK.THEN AGAIN HE WOULD PROBALY BE CALLED A LIAR. GOOD LUCK IM GOING TO BED

You are 100% right but this is not an Israely choice. Palestinians should make a choice. Do they want to fight Jews forever or take their land under their control and create law and order in it and stop all cross-border attacks on Israel?

You are either on my wavelenth or I on yours in either case no argument there.Just as all the Isrealis/Jews that surrendered in 1948 were massacred by the "CONQURING" Arabs so would all the Jews if they wion the 1948 or 1967 wars. I am VERY HAPPY with the outcome of the NAQBA.

Sent you a response has not surfaced yet. But,here goes once again... T?is me Kath?and no other Would I smile and say: Oh Yea who am I today? To please Israel,none other! I never abandon Zion! Not for eons and eons! Would you put me to test? Nay kind sir, you must jest, Are we here at odds? Here?s a remedy no loss. Thinkest thou mistook In my objective to brook? Wake up dear Boycott, I will never be a turncoat?

CHGODMK Danite is away on business...

Saudy initiative represents Arabs point of view. Saudy Arabia is an Arab country involved in ME conflict and not an honest broker. It should be understood by everybody. It is first sign of recognition of Israel. There is a long way of compromizes on both sides ahead.

Does shouting make you right? You are a classic case of empty vessels make the most sound. Some times it is better to say nothing than lots of loud nothing.

Millions of people heard this "Arab High Command call for the Arab population to get out of the way so the Arab armies could make a clean sweep, fighting the Jews" on their radio. But I agree with you, it was not the only reason for people to flee. If my people declare a war on other people threatening to throw them all to the sea then I would be very scared. What if my people won't succeed? What is going to happen to me? That is a logical reaction to leave.

If Israel were to offer this, with the West paying for the compensation then almost the entire Muslim world, not just the Palestinians would normalise their relationships with Israel and the West and accept Israel's right to exist. Instead, in the uneven contest that exists in the West Bank (especially in media coverage), we are asking the people who have been dispossessed and who have nothing to make all the compromises.If this is the Iszraeli idea of fair,then maybe its time to dismantle Israel?

The Palestinians (Jews, Christians and Muslims) lived together fairly happily together for over a thousand years until we started to interfere. The Palestinians have been made sacrificial lambs to assuage the West?s guilt for centuries of endemic European anti Semitism that peaked in the Holocaust. To soothe our collective guilt after this event we gave the Jewish people something that was not ours and did not compensate the people from which we took it. Strangely, we don?t understand why these people have a problem with this. If the U.S.A had no veto vote in the U.N. then this problem may have been solved already. A vast majority of General Assembly members over the years have voted for Israel to return to the 1967 borders, make Jerusalem an open or divided city and allow the return or compensation of refugees. This gives the state of Israel more land then they are legally entitled to under the original 1947 U.N. mandate.

which country are you from?

once the Palestinians stop teaching hate in their schools and preaching hate on their streets.

Pals should take responsibility for pogromsof 1929, 1937 that led to creation of Jewish resistance. But more important is to take responsibilities for blackmailing Brits to stop Jewish immigration to Israel during WWII and siding up with Germans during.

Interesting on how you like Israel seeks to divide the Palestinian nation. I'm a goy or gentile to Israel. I'm subhuman. You want to talk about dhimmi? YES IT DOES EXIST, as a Non-Jew living in my ancestral homeland. Of course there have been disagreements b/n Christian and Muslim Palestinians. However, it's not Lebanon. The first Palestinian rep to the UN in the 40's was a Christian need I remind you. You're also forgetting the fact, of how many Churches Israel and the Zionist militias destroyed while removing the indegenious Palestinians in the 40's. I've witnessed it myself where Orthodox Jews near the Weiling Wall spit on Armenian and other Christians in Jerusalem. I'M a loyal Palestinian and always will be. I AM OF THE SEED OF CHRIST!

READ the Arab newspapers of the time. They are quite clear about the temporary removal of Arabs till the Jews are thrown out. And READ the interview this week by Saudi King Faisal on the 6 day war anniversary say that the essential aim is still the elimination of Israel.

Howdy Bernie; The explanation is quite simple. Judaism is the oldest monotheistic religion going back at least 4000 years in spite of being surrounded by more powerful polytheistic cultures. Judaism even precedes the Egyptian cult of Atunism (the worship of the sun god exclusively) which was initiated by Pharaoh Akhenatun and which was very short-lived. You said, "The Hebrews, or whatever you want to call them, were mostly pagans before and after the exodus." Oh yeah? There are millions of Jews, Christians, and Muslims who will disagree with you on that. Since I'm not any of the above, I'll let a Jew address your claim. Wasn't there a little thing called the Ten Commandments (circa 1230 B.C.) one of which said, "Thou shalt not have any other gods before Me" or words to that effect?

The demand for land return from the 1967 war victory is not because it's needed or even because it's more Palestinian in nature than other parts... it is completely to "erase the humiliation the Arabs" have been dealt due to an Israeli victory. The Arabs themselves say they will never rest until their humiliation in reversed... They are not looking for peace, but for retribution - a stable ground on which to continue their struggle. If they did want peace, they could have had in many times for the same price since 1967. The borders are indefensible, the demands are unrealistic (and ONLY speak in Arab terms), and involve too many parties to come to a true agreement. While most think its a nice start - it really is a marketing ploy at best - and a recipe for hundreds of years of violence for everyone, at worst.

We understand our responsibility in the nakba and we have acted on it, the problem is that the arabs haven't and the arabist apologists are unable to comprehend it. It boils down to a simple thing once you peel away the revisionism and the rejectionism. The "catastrophe" was the failure to destroy the nascent Jewish State of Israel. "They tried to kill us, we survived, let's eat"- is the basis for so many of our holidays. The nakba recognizes this as a catastrophe and we recognize our responsibility in this catastrophe- we survived. Nu, I can live with that....ahhh that's the problem.

Boy, talk about hiding your head in the sand! These new Revisionists you quoted have been proven to twist facts repeatedly for their own purpose. Even Ilan Pappe was found guilty of quoting facts that he couldn't prove and lost some funding in Haifa Univeristy, after which his anti-Israel remarks increased 100x. You could rely on these "historians" (and I use the term very lightly), or you can refer yourself back to the original newspapers and radio broadcasts of the time. They specifically call for Arabs to move out of the way of invading armies. They also purported that ahuge massacre happened at Deir Yassin, which even the residents deny. It was a ploy to get Arab armies to move in, and instead Pal Arabs ran for their lives (without seeing an IDF soldier). This was through an interview on BBC by Al-Husseini's right-hand man who called it "the biggest Arab mistake". A university in Ramallah also holds many Deir Yassin interviews which disclaim the massacre myth.

GOOD POST!!!!! Gaza has been abandoned to the Balestinians at great cost. Have all the refugee camps been dismantled and new neighborhoods sprung UP? Gaza is ONE HUGE refugee camp supported with UNWRA money. YESH is in large measure ONE HUGE refugee camp dotted with farmland.And CHGODMK from 1948 these areas were under Egyptian and Jordanian control and yet nothing was done for these so called refugees. And another tidbit NO ONE was clamoring for a Balestinian State.

Despite your myopic opinions - in the act of war, the forcing of civilians to leave an area is usually in the case where the army suspects subversive elements exist...and there were a lot of them. Now, take into consideration those poor souls that actually beleived the Arab govts and moved to allow them to wipe out the Jews. They might have thought they were running to safety (considering the massive lies broadcasted by Arabs and the cries by Jews for them to stay) - however, once they are outside of the "zone" they cannot be re-admitted. The reason is simply safety and justice. If people ran en masse how can the new govt know who is legitimate and who is not, who is a civilian and who is a fighter?? Human Rights laws and Geneva Conventions state that a govt must protect its people - allowing subversive elements back in without scrutiny would put everyone at risk - Jew or Arab. Besides - Israel wouold accept refugees if Arabs stopped aggression. Arabs refused. end.

The “NAQBA”or “CATASTROPHE” is a day that was invented on May 15,1998 and since then the words occupation, land theft , expulsion and apartheid have made it into the Arab Lexicon. May 15, 1948 is the day that the state of Israel was declared and just as the Arabs build mosques on other peoples holy sites so did the Arabs expropriate that day to rain on another’s people JOY. THERE was a “catastrophe” as the Arabs see it and that catastrophe is that six Arab armies could not annihilate the fledgling Jewish State of Israel and complete the Nazis job. The “catastrophe” is that the Jews got more land that was allotted to them and the ”catastrophe’ was that the Middle East could not become the Arabs playground with only dhimmis residing there. I and many of my fellow Jews are happy that the Naqba happened, are happy that Israel is here to stay and is a thriving vibrant Jewish Democratic State. I and my fellow Jews are happy to see a strong Israel with a Strong military. Unlike the Arabs we are a source of pride to the world in many, many spheres. The Arabs lost a further 2 wars when they tried to recreate their murderous annihilation attempt and now have the unmitigated gall to tell us to give it all back or there is going to be more terror and more wars. Is that not what we have had since 1948? As Danite would say “let the creeps and Freaks have their fun with Naqba” we have the Land and no one that take that away from us by threats and intimidation and certainly not a bunch of lyers

The time to end the madness of OCCUPATION is now. The Saudi Peace INICIATIVE is the only game in town of "PEACE". We must not loose any opportunity to sit down all of us(Members of the Arab League, and the Israelis Govermnet)to sincerely negociating the EVERLASTING PEACE in the region, thus putiing an end to all OUR SUFFERINGS. Thank you again mr. Carlo Strenger, and the Peace LOVERS of HAARETZ.

How about we hold the same criteria to the Palestinian Arabs, hmmm? You will find that many didn't actually purchase the land they were on but were squatters when the owner didn't return due to the events of WWI. Abbas himself attempted to use the Turkish land records to bolster claims of Palestinian ownership only to drop the demand. It turns out that it proves large portions of land were actually owned by landlords. Al-Husseini and his family owned huge tracts of land on which they employed farmers, workers - many which were immigrants. To further dash your claims - British records show a massive influx of immigrants into the region AFTER the years of WWI when the British and the Jews began to put lots of money into the region. Most new arrivals didn't buy land but simply worked on it. That is why most Pals produce only rusty keys and pictures, no real legal documents of any kind. Finally, Israel did offer $$ for some lands Arabs vacated post-1948. We'll keep that 2

there are more Jews that claim suffering than you claim have stayed and live a good life in Arab lands. I personally have many friends from Arab countries, one from Tunisia exactly, where local Arabs tormented Jews, even killed in order to force them to emigrate. Once they decided to, the Tunisian govt prohibited taking anything....no money, no worldly goods, nothing...just a suitcase per person... ...and they had 3 days to do it or else. Their homes and their items were taken over by Arabs within hours. And these people had NO opinion of Israel or Zionism. There were over 700,000 people forced out in much the same way, with a consortium working to document their experiences, in contrast to the 600,000 Pals that weren't all forced to leave. You can ignore the Arabs actions on Jews, if you wish - like you can ignore the Holocaust, the new EU, or the Internet....doesn't make them untrue, though.

Crying in the Wilderness Boycott? T?is me Kath?and no other Would I smile and say: Oh Yea who am I today? To please Israel,none other! I never abandon Zion! Not for eons and eons! Would you put me to test? Nay kind sir, you must jest, Are we here at odds? Here?s a remedy no loss. Thinkest thou mistook In my objective to brook? Wake up dear Boycott, I will never be a turncoat? I do subscribe to that, Nay kind sir I do not, Am always sober,ah but" Methinks we are at odds Remedy without any loss Thinkest thou mistook. To think that thou mistook remedy

The New Historians (Benny Morris, Tom Segev, Simha Flapan, Ilan Pappe, Avi Schlaim) found that there was NO Arab High Command call for the Arab population to get out of the way so the Arab armies could make a clean sweep, fighting the Jews. Many fled under attack by Jewish forces or expelled by the military. Massacres like Deir Yassin served to frighten Arabs into flight. Source: Le Monde Diplomatique (English)Dec. 1997 So what are your "well documented sources" of the Arab armies ordering the populations out of the way?

Howdy Tosefta; The point is that there is no such thing as a "right of return" for refugees displaced by war or political upheaval regardless of their reasons for leaving in the first place and regardless of their desire to return or to stay put where they are. Contrary to your assertion that, "Most of those who left post WW2 DID return", is false. Sure, there were some refugees who were able to return to their places of origin if they wanted to do so, but there is no legal "right" for them to do so unless those in charge of their former countries grant it. As an example of refugees returning you offer up Albania and Bosnia involving a few hundred thousand. In that case, I will bury you with the tens of millions of refugees from India to Pakistan & Bangladesh, or from Pakistan & Bangladesh to India, or from North Korea to South Korea, or from Vietnam, or from central African countries, or from various regions of the former Soviet Union, etc.

Say your responsible then you have to accept that as the ones who caused the problem we must solve it. If the palestians say our price is a right of return if Israel is responsible that price must be paid. The nakba happened because, Israel was invaded by the arabs who urged the palestians to leave and return when the jews had been driven into the sea .. arabs who stayed were given citizenship. The majority of the ones who left rather than return to a jewish state they wanted to emigrtate to other arab states but were refused. Lets have the arab states accept responsibility for expelling 1 million jews from their homes in arab states. How about a little financial compensation for them and they accept they told palestians to leave and the palestians themselves they took the decision to leave because they belived they could return when the jews were all dead their motives were not so inocent. Peace will come when the arabs choose peace not if Israel says we caused your problems.

No hear for a long time. Must have been to Londonistan to look for new accomodations or to get out of MILUIM. Not protesting the "FENCE" anymore?

Danite is away for some time, unfortunately. Please try to be around as much as possible. Regards, Cipora

1. it is always easier to solve someone elses problems! saudia needs a 180 change,too. 2. and what about arab countries admitting "negba" for the many Jews they stole from and forced to leave. 3.Israel has gotten very little in the past for giving up much!

And what about the 800,000 or so Jews driven out from their Arab countries?

Indeed Carlo does not know his history or perhaps he does not want to know the true facts of the 1948 war. It was at the instigation of the Arab League and their Leaders that they themselves made a number of palestinians leave the country at the start of the war. why so ? simple because they were very confident that the armies of 3/4 Arab countries who invaded Israel will drive the Jews out or into the sea.Carlo cannot possibly deny this and if he does then he must be lying to himself. But, surely he cannot fool us. There is no doubt the guy is a trouble maker

In any case, the responsibility also for those people you mention is on the Arabs, for two reasons: they caused the war and they are keeping all those people as ?refugees? to use them as a weapon against Israel. To sum up, all of those people, the ones kicked out, the ones leaving on their own accord, etc. should ask the Arabs, not Israel, for apologies and moral recognition, if this is what they really want.

Carlo an absolute naqba nutcase, no doubt. I really don't know from where Haaretz recruit all these nutters they have on their payroll ; starting with Gideon Levy, the number one nut and followed by that silly woman Amira Hass.

and still tramp on it with horrible actions, including Iran, post-Soviet State, etc. Yeah, I guess you need a Constitution in order to remain honest and moral. Oh wait...you live in America. Never mind.

It doesn't just demand Israel accept ITS responsibility for the "Naqba", but also the resposibility for every other party that helped create it, while absolving them: 1) All Arab govts (for waging war in the first place and calling for Arabs to leave their homes) 2) The Arab league (for calls for a genocidal war against Jews in 1948, and again the 3 NOs in Khartoum in 1967) 3) The UN, specifically the UNRWA (which continues to allow the refugees to fester, even though helping millions of others to find permanent homes and lives) 4) Palestinian terror/politcal groups (for blocking most attempts at a solution, for cynically using refugees as a political tool, and for using media to brain wash future generations against peace 5) Western governments (for repeatedly NOT demanding Arabs stop agression, in order to maintain their own future oil supplies) This Initiative is cynical and not intended for real peace.

I suggest you hit a few books yourself. One would be Simha Flapan's The Birth of Israel: Myths And Realities. The myths that Israel has put over on the public are too numerous to mention. Many of them have been cited in this article as Facts. Another book I'd recommend would be Norman Finkelstein's Beyond Chutzpah. As for the situation of minorities in the Middle East over the past few hundred years, that is beside the question at hand, as are many of the postings on this site. You are welcome to enumerate a few pograms in Aleppo, however, just stay in the 20-2st centuries. Don't seem to get anything on google.

As a Jew who identifies with Israel, I am prepared to accept a share of moral responsibility for the problems and injustices suffered by the Palestinians as a result of Israel's birth. Indeed, I would be prepared to go further and (as part of a general peace settlement) would be prepared personally to share financial responsibility for assisting Palestinian refugees and their and compensating them for the losses they have suffered. I wonder if there are not many like-minded Jews in the diaspora and in Israel who would be prepared to do the same thing.

"The writings regarding Abraham, Moses, David, etc. were all written during Pagan times. You see Gina, I have a small advantage. I have read the book and the history of the region." - Bernie Bernie, There is more than one book, and the one you read does not seem to have the standard understanding of what went on. Many archeologists today believe that Israel grew out of the Canaanites, and that there was no Exodus, which you keep referring to. It took a long time for the religion to become monotheistic, and this finally happened with the return from the Babylonian exile (538 BC). David apparently was a Yahwist. Likewise, the song of Deborah (Judg. 5) is about Yahweh, and is considered the oldest part of the bible. In any case, the BOOKS were written late, relatively speaking. Deuteronomy written in the 7th Cent BC (about all agree) and the other Pentateuchal books sometime later. The whole thing was finally edited perhaps in the 5th cent. BC. Already in the 7th cent BC, the evidence (especially from names) already shows mostly Yahwistic religion. I was only motivated to write this post because of your Golden Calf reference: "Moses: Oh, the ones that worship the Cow? So a Jew is like a follower of Baal." There was no cow but a calf (male; that is what the Hebrew says). So we are not talking about the Egyptian goddess Hathor, the heavenly cow, nor about Baal who was "rider of the clouds" (perhaps the haze around clouds).A Canaanite god which regularly called "Bull" is El, the Canaanite chief god. (And his wife Asherah is called Cow often.) So you might want to change your dialog of the Burning Bush and eliminate Baal from the story. (Incidentally, Baal assume the form of a bull 3 times in Ugaritic poems, so it can still be him, but definitely the Cow is wrong.)

"that the text refers to God`s People." The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That's good enough for me! :-) You do know that making fun of religious persons doesn't negate their experiences and relationship with the living God, do you? But carry on if it provides you comfort.

You have the opportunity to vote in elected officials who will respond to your wishes to cut off all aid. Millions of Americans will vote also -- Democrats and Republicans, also, millions of Christians, who support and treasure the Jewish state of Israel, who are thankful for its contributions in areas of defense, technology, science, research, medicine, agriculture. Thankful for the welcome and opportunity to visit historical, religious, archaeological areas.

4 good posts out of 5. But you started in the middle of the story with the rapid growth of Jewish immigration to Palestine in 1932-6 and the Arab response. Another place in the middle of the story to start is the 1880's when Jews were a pretty insignificant % of the population and had been for more than a millenia. So the Palestinian perception that this was an invasion of their land is hardly absurd. No point insisting either side apologize, but Israel should be aware that the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine was not in the interests of Palestinians, it was imposed on them. A Palestinian state the size of the West Bank and Gaza will be 1/2 the size of the territory the partition plan of 1947 offered the Arabs. I think it's dangerous overreaching of Israel to try to hold onto more. Regarding need to take moral responsibility, if the Pals/Arabs need an apology over the flight/expulsion of 1948, they might as well start working on a set of apologies of their own.

Yep, Vlad Learned the Ways of Cruelty in a Turkish Torture Chamber. He turned on his former captors their own methods and he saved Europe because of it. Unfortunately he also Tortured his own people, ate human flesh, drank blood, nailed hats to heads, executed lazy housewives and baked to death all the beggars in his entire country. I would hope people like that would not be necessery, but there were even worse people out there. There is a tower of human skulls in Serbia, they were not built by insane Christians, they were built by Moslems and they scared Europe so much, Vlad seemed like a good thing.

People, at some point we have to stop beating a dead horse, as if we could magically return to the past. We must stop accusing Jews long dead of malicious intent, or posting baloney such as "Moses worshipped Baal", or ignoring the fact that, during wars, people get hurt. Another sad thing is the idea that wars are inevitable. They aren't. People do have choices. Wrong choices were made. The choice to use violence is still being made today. If accepting moral responsibility will help people heal, and start seeing each other as human, then I will accept it. So should we all, Arab, Christian, onlooker and Jew, Palestinian, Israeli, Egyptian, Lebanese, American, Brit, Russian, Iraqi - is there a person or a group of people anywhere in the world who is without sin? We live in the year 2007 CE. We are not cave dwellers, barbarians. We have the choice, the opportunity, to walk forward and create a better world together, rather than spilling blood. Let's make that choice.

SO YOURE ACHRISTIAN BERNIE ?? WHAT WAS YESHUA DOING WHY HE WAS PREACHING JUDAISM TO THE PAGANS !! NOW WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN IS PURE FANTASY INVENTED BY THE ROMANS !! NONE OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE BALFOUR DECLARATION, OR THE 1922 MANDATE WHICH LEGALLY GAVE THE LAND TO THE JEWISH PEOPLE ONLY NOTE THE WORD BERNIE ONLY!! YOUR RANTING ABOUT WHT THE BIBLE CONTAINS IS IRRELEVANT

I think ultimately the Israeli government will accept the reality of the deportation of some population of Arabs/Palestinians living in what is today Palestine. Most countries - the UK in Ireland, the United States with the slave and Native issues - are foced to come to terms with the awful things that have been committed in the past. Israel, though, is still a young country. It took the U.S. many years before the reality of the Native American genocide was widely accepted, taught in schools, etc. Yet, if Israel's acceptance of the Nakba, rather than create a more open and accepting environment, instead ratchets up the 'illigimacy' lobby in both the Arab world and the West, would accepting the Nakba really enhance the opportunities for peace? Israel should only accept the Nakba as a policy if it can be reasonably assured that the Arab leaders would see this as a development toward peace, rather than an opportunity to undercut Israeli legitimacy. lessthanexpert.wordpress.com

I believe the UN High Commission figures were about 450,000 but as you say these were revised upward and the usual standard of 20 year residency was only 2 in the case of Arab refugees from the 1947-49 war. There were cases, however, in which people WERE driven away, others in which fear certainly played a role. Plan Dalet during the 1947 civil war was a desperate attempt to shorten battlelines, not "ethnic cleansing" for its own sake- the Yishuv was getting its butt kicked and Jerusalem was beseiged; these were desperate measures in desperate times. Lod Airport was another. Similarly, it is well documented that Jewish leadership begged the Arabs to stay but the Arab High Command issued orders to the contrary. They said they were going to create a massacre unlike any seen since the Mongols, the Jews were going to be completely destroyed. Most of the Arabs who left never even saw an Israeli soldier, but there were exceptions - and that is a normal consequence of war.

First, the situation on the ground changed when the British wrested control of the Middle East from the Ottomans. The Jewish community in the Mandate was already well-established by then. And, nationalism was becoming more and more prominent as a way of organizing groups of people - up until the 20th century, and well into it, empires were the rule rather than the exception. So you can't claim that the idea of a self-determining Jewish entity was "lie", it was part of an evolution that affected most of the world, a reorganization of tribal, regional and imperial entities into nation-states. Moreover, much of the changes that affected how Mandate Jews looked at Arabs resulted from the violence against them. This definitely changed people's attitudes. Those who were victimized by pogroms under British rule and at the hands of Arabs certainly became less idealistic. Does that surprise you? Why? You should not attribute sinister motives to people who were just reacting!

With respect your personal experiences in Syria do not begin to match the historical record and such anecdotes can't be taken seriously vis a vis documented fact and the experiences of hundreds of thousands of people. Also, blaming Israelis for a fire in a synagogue and ignoring the pogroms in Aleppo, to name just one city, is disingenous to say the least. This isn't a matter of my "suiting myself", it's matter of historical fact vs your vague personal experiences and obvious blindness to reality. I suggest you hit the books. And while you're at it don't stop with the 20th century, but really look at the situation of minorities in the Middle East over the past few hundred years.

I can't believe that you thought that in post 299 I was trying to alter text. I wasn't making fun of the text. I was making fun of the religious fanatics that read a world like 'my people' and decide thats good enough for them. I was making fun of the fact that it is obvious that the books were written by men, not god. And just like anything else written by men, sometimes it is not clear and sometimes amendments are needed. That's why Christianity added a bunch of books in 300AD. That's why the Koran modified some of the stories in 650AD. You see, some of the stories, were just not clear.

The texts were written long before there was Monotheism. Judaism, Christianity and Islam were not yet born. The writings regarding Abraham, Moses, David, etc. were all written during Pagan times. You see Gina, I have a small advantage. I have read the book and the history of the region. If you take the time to study archaeological, religious, historical and textual information from those times, it is incredible how well everything fits together. It takes a lot of work Gina. Let's just say that the information available would fill a book, but you just keep waving that one page at me and repeating 'God said ...' Funny isn't it, that the text refers to God's People. Makes it real convenient for everyone, Christians, Jews or Muslims to say, he must have meant me.

Why don't you go visit Hiroshima or Nagasaki for your next vacation?

Indeed,it came into existence in tragic circumstances, aggravated by the Arab attackers. Israel should not accept responsibility for what is the Arabs responsibility, towards both the Israelis and the so-called pals. It is the Arabs, including the pals, who should accept their responsibility for the harm they have been inflicting to the Israelis since before the proclamation of Israel.

most of spain, much of europe greece etc according to your thinking. read and learn or do not be suprised when confronted on your door step with islamic imperialists when it will be to late. vlad the impailer know why he is important and was so bloody? he stoped the muslims had he failed all of europe now would have been muslim. an interesting idea but not what happened. certainly would have meant no christianity.

So they accidently prayed to the Golden Calf, interesting. How about around 1000 BC, when David 'united' Israel. His son, Solomon, built over 80 temples to his wives, every temple was to a different pagan god, none of them were the Jewish. Possibly, another 80 flukes, right? Isn't it interesting, that one of those temples was on Mount Moria, the original temple to God that Solomon built. Nobody has been able to find the temple, so who was that mysterious 81st God? Lets fast forward a couple hundred years. Jezebel is now Queen of Israel. Elijah kills 300 priests of Baal, then flees(or gets saved by a chariot to the sky) the kingdom in order to escape the wrath of the 'Queen of Israel'. Just another one of them flukes, probably. The Hebrews, or whatever you want to call them, were mostly pagans before and after the exodus. Monotheism did not take root until well after Moses, David, Solomon, etc ... around 550BC.

and has protected us as much if not more than that money would have bought elsewhere. your position accepts islams view once conquored always islamic that is imperialism which you seem to not undertand

In the first place, it was the Arabs who left Israel on their own accord or pushed by those who attacked Israel. In the second place, where the figure of 750,000 comes from? The UN registered as refugees those who have emigrated to work in Israel and had been living for just two years. And also the UN and the Red Cross registered as refugees lots of poor Arabs who had no relation with Israel and had not even set foot on it for them to live in relief. This reached such a point that the Red Cross said it was not necessary for all the poor to leave their Arab countries, and they sent them the aid anyway.

But as we can see, keeping the Palestinians in abject misery all these decades serves the Arabs' very purposes. As we all know, the Arabs never care about one another, unless they can cynically use each other's misery against Israel and the West. For decades Palestinian refugees have lived in camps in Arab countries, and neither the people nor their governmets have given a damn about them--except to use them in their PR war against Israel.

"The early pioneers came to the Holy Land during the middle of the 1800s,and once they cleared the swamps and established a modicum infrastructers,cultivated the land and made the desert bloom.That many people, including some Arabs flocked to this newly developed country of ours," This nonsense marks a new low on your unlearning curve. Or are you a Palestinian propagandist seeking to bring Zionism into disrepute by pretending to be Kath and spouting obvious rubbish?

Burston, Pundak, Burg, Stenger, and others ... With elites like that one doesn't need enemies. They're willing to sell out their own country in order to be able to have drinks with their "peers" in Britain.

And if my church wants to support theocracies, they can. My tax dollars don't need to continue to be spent in the Middle East, they should not be spent on the Arab Countries or Israel. The only reason everyone keeps fighting is because the US keeps paying the bill. If we would stop, level headed people would make peace already.

Responsible for? You talking about a handful of Jews that left Hebron? I won't make any excuse, but claiming to make the city part of the Jewish State is a definite reason for hostility. Ignoring that, ok Arabs take responsibility. There are more foreign Jewish settlers in Hebron now than left in 1929? All you would have to do is have them trade places with the original residents, and that would be a DECREASE in the number of Hebron Jews. So that's easy, now let's do the Palestinians.

Dear Carlos, Get a grip, go back to psychology and your cigars. So what if the Palestinians left on their own or were goaded into leaving by us or the attacking arab nations! That's war, fool. It happened 60 years ago and I don't hear arabs apologizing for rejecting the '47 division (and then trying to wipe us out). I don't hear arabs apologizing for driving the oriental Jews out of their countries. I don't hear arabs apologizing for wanting to wipe us off the map in '67. I don't hear Palestinians apologizing for rejecting the Clinton plan in 2000 and then wrecking the peace process. And don't think for a minute that the arabs would apologize (to the world) if they ever succeed in ending the Jewish state (g*d forbid). Get over your pathetic bleeding heart and suck on your cigar (which is a symbol for what Carlos??). You should apologize for your pathetic contribution to Haaretz!

1. "The Palestinian refugees.. declared their hostility to and rejection of citizenship in the State of Israel by (for the most part) voluntarily leaving even though Israel appealed to the Arab population not to do so." - Jeff This is one your best acts so far. The refugees escape from the fighting (as Israelis in the north did last year) and that is how they declared rejection of Israel. . Interestingly, about half the Arabs left between Dec 1947 and May 1948 when the state was declared, because of the fighting. What did these people reject? 2. "There have been hundreds of millions of people who have fled various wars around the world for the past 68 years and not one of them has a "right of return" to their places of origin." - Jeff Most of those who left post WW2 DID return. The Kosovars came back from Albania, the refugees of Bosnia, etc. JEFF, THESE NEW NUMBERS WILL MAKE GREAT ADDITIONS TO YOUR SLAPSTICK SHOW. YOU ARE GETTING BETTER AS YOU AGE. LIKE GOOD WINE.

Gina, The good news is that Israel is much smarter than people attempting to defend it on these forums. Israel did not retreat from the obligations it took regarding Res. 194, and there is no case to be made. I am only answering fools like JN who thinks Israel should take that step. In any case, Iran has lawyers, I am sure more competent than Ban or Annan in matters of law, and they don't need such advice.

I find it amusing that the Arabs might be worried about the destabilizing effects of the Israel-Palestine conflict, and fear that it is nurturing Islamic extremism. After all, it has been the Arab governments themselves that have promoted this conflict, and all the Jew-hating and demonization of Israel that such promotion has entailed. As for the case of the Palestinian refugees and a "just solution" to their plight, have the Arabs ever bothered to do some soul-searching on this issue and ask why they have never bothered to integrate the Palestinians living in refugee camps on their own soil? Tend your own garden first. It is the Arab people who have left this problem to fester, not Israel. As for a just solution to their plight, I think there should be monetary compensation handed to them, but any attempt to have them "return" to Israel is just a ploy to cause the eventual destruction of Israel by demographic means. Period.

Jason hello How well you put your response,and how correct The Saudi initiative is not only "dead"in the water,but also if adhere to it,means the DEATH OF ISRAEL,and theyhave the audacity whoever suggests it knows full well. How many timesdo we have to remind the deluded people to think before they utter such thoughtless endeavours,and continue here by some of the journalists as a "panacea"for all the ills Israel will suffer as a consequence.And this coming from one of ours,like the one up there Mr.Carlo Strenger.A professor no les advocating,or trying to justify the offer by the Saudis that we know is just an unacceptable enterprise,and not worth the paper it may be written in.And to add insult to injurty,Israel is suposed to accept responsibilty for their "nakba".He knows well,that the true "nakba"is ours to inform and constitutes asking our "pardon"and not the reverse.That they should stand up and begin to build a society in lieu of whining all the time.

The moral responsibility for the Nakba is on the Arabs who attacked Israel, not on Israel. It was also the Arabs who caused the ?refugee problem? and are not prepared to solve it because they are using it as a weapon against Israel.

Why waste your time answering Jew haters. Why answer someone who does not value Israeli lives, who states that Kassams hitting Sederot is a small matter. There is no dialog possible. Israel withdraws 100% from Gaza and the response is not peace, but war. They have spoken. We know where we stand.

WE clearly read of the Lord God communicating with His people in the Torah (and the rest of the Old Testament) All you do is make yourself look foolish by altering the text of the Book you seek to discredit.

Here is what Mahmoud Abbas had to say about the Nakba in March 1976, in the official journal of the PLO published in Beirut: "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live." Falastine a-Thaura, March 1976 He apparently had not read the same history books Prof. Stenger reads. But then he was only a refugee from Safed and what should Arafat's deputy and the Palestinian President know about the subject.

Carlo Strenger writes that it is accepted by historians of all venues today, that Israel actively drove 750,000 Palestinians from their homes in 1947/8 and hence has at least partial responsibility for the Palestinian Nakba." In fact there were nowhere near that number. Arabs left for a variety of reasons, SOME directly expelled by Israeli forces, some from fear, some in the heat of battle, but they were also called on to do so by such Arab leaders as Nuri as-Said. Most telling of all, their own leaders had mostly fled the arena (with 12 out of 15 members of the national leadership outside Palestine, calling on their fellows to stay put and fight). Clearly the professor of psychology does not know his history; what bothers me is his acceptance of propaganda as history, even though I agree that Israel should be pursuing the Saudi initiative.

Arabs promise peace in return of withdrawal ,because they know its the only way they have to make israel retreat. Arafat promise peace also in return to the withdrawal from Gaza back in 1994. For years (decades actually) israel has been offered peace if only israel does retreat. Back in the 70s Egypt offered peace also and today militants infiltrate weapons from egypt into gaza. Instead of withdraing so that peace could come..,Israel should demand the other thing around. First arabs should make peace with Israel..,next israel would retreat.

Islamic extremism fuels itself. Israel-pal conflict is just an excuse. And it is also an excuse the Arabs are using against Israel. If they want to solve the problem, why don?t they urge the islamists to respect the agreements signed by the pals? Why don?t they assimilate the pals instead of keeping them in refugee camps? Besides, if they had the intention of ending with Islamic extremism, they would fight it instead of supporting the jihadists? demands.

Sure, that'll happen. Real soon now. Right after Israel gets a constitution.

Saudi initiative is meant to Israel destruction. This is why the pals are for it. The pals do not accept the UN partition. Neither did they accept the Oslo Accords, in spite of the fact that they had signed them. The reason for this refusal is that these accords recognize Israel.

In a perfect world the Saudi Peace plan would be a great opportunity for a starting point on the road to peace. But lets look at the facts. A Israel has a very cold Peace with Egypt. The Egyptian public is decidedly anti- Israel and the anti-Israeli and anti- Semitic invective coming out of Egypt is worse than from any Arab state. B The Arab regimes are tottering toward revolution and Islamic extremism. It would be very difficult to make peace in such a dangerous climate. The peace would be worthless if a fundamentalist regime succeeded in Egypt, Jordan or Saudi Arabia. C The Palestinians have descended into total anarchy. how do you make peace with such an entity. Hamas the "governing group" refuses not only to recognize Israel but calls on it's followers to kill Jews. D Israel is now being run by a weak government. Traditionally in Israel a strong leader like Rabin, Ben Gurion and Sharon can make the tough decisions regarding peace and war

Nick As I read the opinions of both sides I can?t help but agree and blame both sides.It is true that the Arabs declined the available partition plans,but I can?t help but wonder, that if the roles were reversed and the Jews were there pre-Holocaust and the Pals were the victims of the Nazis etc,etc.(Nick). Well Nick, let us not mince words here.It seems you are remiss on the historical narrative of pre-mandated Israel and have some studying to do to open your horizons. I never came accross your persona here.Are you a new respondent? If you are not,and although a bit tiring to repeat the beginnings of the establishment of the Holy Land that I had on numerous occasions,would have clarified the subject for you. So, here I go again. The early pioneers came to the Holy Land during the middle of the 1800s,and once they cleared the swamps and established a modicum infrastructers,cultivated the land and made the desert bloom.That many people, including some Arabs flocked to this newly developed country of ours,and thus your hypothesis here is superfluous. And should answers your questions. And NO the Jews would not have been as cruel as the Arabs.A reminder is in order here to you. The thousands that left the Arab countries with only what they had on their backs,fleeing the persecution they suffered.should give an inkling on how,unlike the Jews theirs is.A dismal behaviour known too well by many throughout the world. During the awful days of the Holocaust Haj Amin Al Husseini made a pact with Hitler to speed up the demise of the Jews and helped in his endeavour, for the annihilation of Jews. Think about it before you make a fool of yourself. Also an addendum:Judaism =Zionism.Full stop. The so-called West Bank is a disputed territory,if and when the belligerence of the jihadist stop,and they adhere to calm,not just for a short period to suit them to rearm and continue their terror activities,but for ever.Otherwise the matter will not be automatically. It is such a joke when some like you come here pontificating what you purport the situation at the time of the Jordanian and Egyptian occupation was like. They treated these Arabs in a degrading way,and they left the occupied country in dire straits. Jerusalem was treated as a dump,as they treated the rest of the place during their occupation?

Nick As I read the opinions of both sides I can?t help but agree and blame both sides.It is true that the Arabs declined the available partition plans,but I can?t help but wonder, that if the roles were reversed and the Jews were there pre-Holocaust and the Pals were the victims of the Nazis etc,etc.(Nick). Well Nick, let us not mince words here.It seems you are remiss on the historical narrative of pre-mandated Israel and have some studying to do to open your horizons. I never came accross your persona here.Are you a new respondent? If you are not,and although a bit tiring to repeat the beginnings of the establishment of the Holy Land that I had on numerous occasions,would have clarified the subject for you. So, here I go again. The early pioneers came to the Holy Land during the middle of the 1800s,and once they cleared the swamps and established a modicum infrastructers,cultivated the land and made the desert bloom.That many people, including some Arabs flocked to this newly developed country of ours,and thus your hypothesis here is superfluous. And should answers your questions. And NO the Jews would not have been as cruel as the Arabs.A reminder is in order here to you. The thousands that left the Arab countries with only what they had on their backs,fleeing the persecution they suffered.should give an inkling on how,unlike the Jews theirs is.A dismal behaviour known too well by many throughout the world. During the awful days of the Holocaust Haj Amin Al Husseini made a pact with Hitler to speed up the demise of the Jews and helped in his endeavour, for the annihilation of Jews. Think about it before you make a fool of yourself. Also an addendum:Judaism =Zionism.Full stop. The so-called West Bank is a disputed territory,if and when the belligerence of the jihadist stop,and they adhere to calm,not just for a short period to suit them to rearm and continue their terror activities,but for ever.Otherwise the matter will not be automatically. It is such a joke when some like you come here pontificating what you purport the situation at the time of the Jordanian and Egyptian occupation was like. They treated these Arabs in a degrading way,and they left the occupied country in dire straits. Jerusalem was treated as a dump,as they treated the rest of the place during their occupation?

Bernie, you don't argue with a nut either. These people using the Bible to justify what is going on over there are exactly what Bush's liaison to the Evangelicals said Bush and his people said, "they are nuts"! This from our Evangelical Bush. Does not pay to pretend something in public you are not in private. Poor Maria will never be convinced by any reality as she uses only her Bible and knows exactly what God said no matter what 'his people' are doing over there. That should tell you a lot. Nice woman, but out in left field totally along with her compatriots, the brainwashed zionists. Don't you think they would look at Israel's predicament and understand it is all nonsense and is simple a case of neocolonialism by Europeans claiming to be Jews. Thank God the world is waking up. Your posts are quite good.

How else can the "right of return" be interpreted? You do not have to go to the dictionary to understand the meaning of these two words "right" and "return." And you don't have to have a 135 IQ to understand that millions of Pals flooding into Israel might be a bit of a security challenge. The author points out that some Pals just want Israel to accept "moral responsibility" for the Nakba, and not necessarily a return. That is bullshit. It is an attempt to break the resolve of the Jewish state to survive. If anyone has the legitimate right of return, its the Jews to Israel. A right that was denied for two thousand years by Arabs. So, the Pals can stop bitching and get busy with the very hard work of building a good society. Stop the blame game.

There might be a solution if all parties to the events during and after Israel's struggle for birth could take responsibility for their actions. If Israel were to apologize for its share in creating the ensuing problems for Palestinians, then its Arab neighbors should do the same for invading Israel and causing the chaos that led to those events. Also, how about the many Jewish communities driven from their homes in the Arab countries during the same period? Has any neighboring country ever apologized for that? Not yet. As for Israel's legitimacy, I fail to understand why this should be an issue. The country was established by the United Nations. Peace talks will create its final final borders by negotiation when all parties assume their responsibilities and get to work.

I wonder then, why UN Sec Ban did not recommend this course of action to the Iranian regime. Or actually, Kofi Annan, since he despised Israel as much as many in the Arab Islamic world.

Are you embittered about US aid spend towards Arab countries and the Palestinians, or are you just rankled at the thought of the Jewish state?

I agree with prof. Strenger that Israel should accept "moral responsibility for the Nakba" but it should be complimented by Arab acceptance of all damages done to Israel by their endless wars. It should include Pal's acceptance of moral responsibility of pogroms of 20-30th without any exuses like "Jews said they want a state etc". Then we can discuss mutual compensations for this wrong doing.

Let us go back in time to the very founding of Islam and the first battles Mohamed Fought against the Merchant Caravans of Mecca from Medina, let us go back to the first conflicts he had with Jews. The Siege, a Jewish man was accused of moving a pin on a piece of clothing on a Moslem woman causing her to shame herself. For this reason he slaughtered an entire tribe, a tribe with a large strong fortress, that could only be broken, by breaking what were then The Laws of War. After executing this entire Tribe, he he drove away two others and declared that there shall be none but Arabs in Arabia. Let us imagine for the sake of argument that there were still Jews in Arabia and the Jewish Kingdom's in Southern Iraq and Kazakhstan were still there. Let us pretend that Arab Plans to wipe out Northern Africa found resistance in Somalia that matched Ethiopia. Let us imagine that instead of being a swarm that has ethnically cleansed most everything between Chechnya and Darfur, Arabs were victims

First, the refugee camp is full of unwelcome Palestinians, that are only being offered a place to live temporarily until they can return to Palestine. Second, the terrorists are not Lebanese, they are from other countries, with very limited support from the Palestinians. The Sunni Lebanese are with the Christian Army as are the Shiite Lebanese on this issue. Lebanese Citizens are together. Lebanese Citizens are: Hezbollah, Christians, and Lebanese Sunni The Syrians were sent back to Syria. These foreigners will be sent back to Saudi Arabia, Yemen or wherever they came from. And the Palestinians will be sent back to Palestine.

Howdy Tosefta; Thank God that I don't comprehend reading material or reason the same way that you do. Look, buddy, the ICJ ruled before Israel's admittance to the UN that only the conditions contained in Chapter 4 of the UN Charter can be used to determine membership in the UN and no others. The recollection of Israel's acceptance of and intent to implement UNGARs 181 & 194 was offered as sufficient (but not necessary) evidence of her willingness to be a "peace-loving state". The fact that the Arabs rejected both of those UNGARs made their implementation impossible and they no longer apply. It is not reasonable or lawful to hold one party bound by the provisions of a contract when the other party refuses to agree to it. That is insane and that is precisely what you are trying to do. If you think that you are right, then take your case to the UN Security Council and try to get Israel expelled from the UN. Good luck, but I think that you will be laughed out of the chamber.

Tired of sending our soldiers to the middle east, giving money to egypt, jordan and israel (so they don't fight, as if it matters to us if they do), stop being involved in actions that cause Muslims to view us as an extension of zionists ... I think then, you will be begging for a chance to apologize to the arabs for what happened. America has done so much for your country, but now we lost Iraq, we can't fight Iran, our country is going broke ... yet you still wanna refuse peace and apologies. Well do it by yourself, see how well that works out ok Ralph. This is your last chance for peace. After we leave Iraq, we are not going back to the middle east, DO YOU UNDERSTAND? Make peace while we're with you, cause you can't win the war when we're gone.

India and Israel have one thing in common, Islam. A fifth of both our populations are Islamic, we both have Hordes beating down our doors to get in, claiming they already live there, we both have Temples with Mosques on top of them. It is not surprising at all when the Insular, Paranoid, ever Rioting Moslems of India take their time out of burning Bombay to Libel us. After all, we sell equipment to the Indian Police to help them deal with the bombings, border crossings and lynch mobs that those Moslems are so well known for.

What about the hundreds of thousands of Jews that had to flee Arab countries in 1948 and the fact that the Palestinians were actually put in camps and kept as refugees by Arabs, not Jews. This should not be an Israel-only appology.

The same goes for a growin' number of christians with their increasin' antisemitism , they also educate in the belief of Christ's death by blamin' the jews , while jews do not crucify their deads , jews ritually burry them , :( look at the crucifix and stay away from christian women :) , secular christians medias today are concealin' facts , present a biased picture of example 67 war, they focus on pro arabs specific aspects while omitting context , paints a highly misleading picture of Israel as the aggressor in 1967. they don't say that Egypt blocked the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, a casus belli act that justifies war under international law. Nor are readers informed that Israel did not "punish" Jordan and Syria until those countries first attacked Israel. As in any war , the 67 war also resulted in the displacement of Arabs fleeing war zones .war made them into refugees. Not a word is devoted to the thousands of Jews who were forcibly expelled from their homes in Arab countries as a result of the war. In July 2006, Christians medias correctly reported that Hezbollah was the first to attack in last summer's war. Since then, they refuse to correct erroneous claims that Israel was the agressor . erroneous report claim recent quassams rocket attack victims are "Israeli soldiers" when they are, in fact, civilian residents of Sderot. They report on the Arab population growth in Israel's capital, but misrepresents the truth about the massive illegal Arab building within Jerusalem. fugitive Israeli Arab Ex-MK Azmi Bishara likens himself to Alfred Dreyfus, the falsely accused French Jewish army officer. But Bishara is no army officer , neither a french and certainly not Dreyfus . A regular ideological contributor to London's Independent merges anti-Zionist rhetoric with anti-Jewish themes. with regard to your description of Jewish religious Law , I may choose to answer to you bit me or get lost or, Example , G'D find in his selection of Moses , the man of G'D , His servant , a mind with capacity , faculties , qualities , ect...as a needed combination to comprehend and perform the work of G'D words , The others who have not been selected for the job usually will portray G'D's selection as racist ect... Keep in mind that , to avoid from others nations such slanders , or jealousy , incitement to hatred and violence ect... , G'D also selected prophets for non jews ,

Howdy Bernie; Although Abraham was called by and was loyal to the Lord God Jehovah before, Judaism didn't really start until Abraham refrained from sacrificing his son, Issac, and circumcision was adopted as a covenent between God and His people by Abraham's descendants circa 2000 B.C. Baal did not enter the picture insofar as the Hebrews were concerned. The "golden calf" episode occurred much later about 1230 B.C. and was probably an idol representing the Egyptian goddess Hathor and not Baal. I think that the Bible does not say if the calf was a heffer or a steer, but if it was a cow (heffer), then it would clinch the issue. In any case, the male god, Baal, would have been represented as a bull and not as a cow or calf. The whole thing was a fluke in the history of Judaism and does not imply that the Hebrews were worshippers of Hathor or Baal prior to the exodus.

If and when actual Palestinian elected and / or armed bodies make actual public statements about the Right of Return . . . that's very different from the private thoughts of a few intellectuals who envision giving it up. Israel can't rationally make policy based on the private thoughts of a few private people. To use these private statements to argue the real issue is Israel accepting some moral responsibility is an illogical leap. Every actual statement, including official negotiating papers, says they don't compromise in any way. So what kind of foolishness is it to extend what you hear in private to the rest of Palestinian society?

Professor Carlo Strenger should for a moment forget about Israel and see for himself what is going on in Gaza and Lebanon : Hamas & Jihad are engaged in serious armed clashes killing each other which had been going on for a long time. This on its own gives you an idea of what sort of people they are. Further North, the Lebanese Army is engaged in battle with armed Lebanese terrorists resulting in numerous casualties. Does Carlo not agree that this is the real nakba inflicted upon the Palestinians and the Lebanese by their own people ? or is Carlo so blind as to dare to deny this ? what more evidence does Carlo need when we tell him that the real nakba is entirely of their own making and responsibility ? is Carlo now going to apologise for his silly article of lies and mischiefs?

acknowledge their existance on my land.

Lynn, you understand now why we Swiss are called the FOX NEWS of the world...??? Always fair and balanced. Only exception: When it comes to our banker's discretion, we know no mercy. Absolutely none...:)

Carlo, Hit those rejectionists with straight, analytical facts right in the kisser, hopefully they will wrap their minds around what you have to say. Israelis are so dillusional about their own past, present, and future it is hard for them to accept the truth. Keep on keepin' on man. The struggle must be waged here in United States to bring an end to our breast feeding of the Israeli occupation and militarism.

Carlo Strenger's article can be seen as positive in so far as it proposes a way out for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Is he, however, not exaggerating when he writes that it is: "accepted by historians of all venues today, that Israel actively drove 750,000 Palestinians from their homes in 1947/8"? More fundamentally, why would this be an idea "undermining the foundation of the Zionist enterprise and the legitimacy of Israel's existence."? If it were true that Israel actively drove 750,000 Palestinians from their homes in 1947/8 and if the then existing state of war could not, in any way, be seen as a justification for this, this would certainly be a large dark spot on the origin of the State of Israel. What is the logic in concluding from this that the idea of a Jewish State is wrong?

The real cause for the 1948 war was simply the Arab nations decision not to accept the UN partition, and to attack with their armies. The real cause for the 1967 war was the Arab arms build up, and the advance of the Egyptian army into the Sinai. The real cause of Israel rule in the West Bank was Jordan's decision to join Egypt in the war. Arab enmity towards Israel has done more harm to the Palestinian people than anyone else.

I don't think any Jews should have to leave Israel. Not the original inhabitants or the settlers that came later. I think that the Right of Return has to be discussed. I would like to see the NonJewish State of Israel, let whoever wants to come home return, let the settlers stay ... but in the future immigration must be fair, considering immigrants not based on religion, but based on some other human factors. What propoganda?

1. "Israel accepted whatever it did of 194 regardless of any Arab acceptance. It is obligated. I know you don`t understand why, but that`s why you are a legal incompetent." - Tosefta "The fact that the Arabs rejected both UNGARs making their full implementation impossible caused both of them to die an early death. It was Israel`s intent to comply with them which was cited" - Jeff What did Israel accept as far as UNGAR 194? Do you know? In any case, The Arabs did NOT reject 194; why should they. But what Israel obligated itself to in MAy 1949 does not depend on what the Arabs did in Dec 1948 when 194 was passed. Do you understand why you are a legal incompetent? 2. "And stop insulting Cipora. She`s more logical than you are by a long shot." - Jeff Cipora at least uses Martian logic. She has a good excuse. What is your excuse, thgat you have been teaching retarded children for too long?

"The presumption therefore is that Israel`s statements were important for the GA to reach the following conclusion. And that was, that Israel is a PEACE LOVING state. It is SPELLED OUT for everyone to see, including Martians. This condition of admission to the UN is required by the Charter." - Tosefta #257 "The "recalling" of Israel`s acceptance and desire to implement UNGARs 181 & 194 was offered as evidence of her satisfaction of the requirements for her admission to the UN as contained in Article 4 of the UN Charter and not as additional necessary conditions" - Jeff Can you see Jeff why it is that you are considered to be someone with a reading comprehension disability? And people who do not understand what they read should not get involved in legal interpretations. An interpretation must be grounded in some legal TEXT which has to be understood FIRST Incidentally, Cipora has a similar disability. Therefore I do not recommend that you collaborate. Instead of helping each other, you will be supporting each other`s weakness and magnifying it by a resonance effect.

Fairest statement you have made concerning the whole complicated mess. I congratulate your insight.

Israel is a member of the UN now, and therefore has all rights, etc. If it ceases to be a member, because of any reason, it will not have the same rights, etc.

I love your post. Shows how ridiculous this all really is. :)

God: Set my people free. Moses: Which ones, the ones in Egypt. God: Yes, set the Jews free. Moses: What's a Jew? God: Those people working in Egypt. Moses: Oh, the ones that worship the Cow? So a Jew is like a follower of Baal. God: No, a Jew follows me. Moses: But, I'm not a, what did you call it, Jew, and I am following you ... God: You are making this too complicated, just lead them to Judea, and somebody else can figure this all out later.

al Qaeda has just declared a holy war on your beloved country. Better get your act together and face reality.

Nonsense ! the Palestinians never ever had a state of their own whereas the history of the Jewish people in the Land of Israel go back to three thousand years with numerous Jewish Kingdoms and Jerusalem being the eternal Capital of Israel. After the Holocaust the Jewish people began to return to their own homeland as the original settlers in the Land of Israel. Read the Holy Bible and see for yourself. You will not find a mention of palestinians in the Kuraan or even Jerusalem

It is my tax dollars that are supporting you. Do you think the Christian right could raise the kind of money required to fight a chronic war? Things are changing, babyboomers hit 65 in 2008, Israel won't even be a talking point, except in the Synogogues and some evangelical christian churches by 2010. The rest of the Americans will be focused on social security, health care, and how to cut off foriegn aid to everyone. And after a careful analysis of the facts, I have determined that if there is not a Jewish State side by side with a Palestinian State by 2008, then by 2012 there will no longer be a Jewish State, only one secular country consisting of Jews, Muslims and Christians.

What about the native born Israelis? Israel was not an empty uninhabited land. It was inhabited by Jews then as well. Your brand of propaganda is not justified.

a so called " intellectual" like the kind of Carlo Strenger who advocates that Israel should take responsibility for a so called nakba which only the Palestnians themselves were entirely responsible for their own disaster and certainly not Israel. Like someone here in the forum wrote that the nakba was entirely self inflicted by the palestinians, rightly so. Carlo has an awful lot to learn obviously. A few more seminars on Middle East politics would guide him in the right direction, hopefully.

The Saudis have MUCH more in common with Iran, for example, than with the US. The US are just friends for the pleasure of the day, nothing more.

sg. I gave some of my personal experience in Syria where Jews were not forced to leave post 1947. Others have mentioned Morocco. I would add Baghdad. Mid-50s the Jews were allowed to make an orderly departure and when the cut-off date neared, there was a fire in a synagogue. There is evidence that it was started by Israeli spies whose mission was to "encourage" immigration. There were pockets of Jews in Yemen when I visited in 1973 and there was encouragement to leave via letters from relatives in Israel. (They weren't buying...) So, while you may not be making up that there was a backlash against Jews in support of the Palestinians, current and past blanket suffering in Arab lands does not ring true with me. Suit yourself.

This is a very creative line of thinking. It is a “MUST READ,” for Ms. Rice, the US Secretary of state. I think though that there seems to be more to the Israeli reluctance to deal with peace initiatives, presented so far. 1) Israeli reluctance is interpreted, in the Arab world, as lack of interest in peace and an overriding interest in territory. 2) Although the Arabs and the Palestinians may not admit it openly, they have very little faith in Israel’s ability to absorb the Palestinian refugees, even if Israel wanted to grant the right of return. So the right of return, in my opinion, is just another bargaining chip to counter Israel’s bag of chips ( Jerusalem, the settlements & the refusal to even talk about final status…etc) On the other hand the two sides seem so to have more common strategic interest than meets the eye. There are times when it is very hard to miss this commonality. Just think about the how the Arab world is viewing Iran’s nuclear ambitions. Many Arab countries, especially Saudi Arabia, were miffed with Hizbullah for starting the latest unnecessary war with Israel. Israel needs not to fear negotiations. It needs not to fear taking partial responsibility for Nakba and needs to take advantage of strategic opportunities for forging alliances.

As I read the OPINIONS of both sides I cant help but agree and blame both sides. Its true that the arabs declined the available partition plans, but I cant help but wonder, that if the roles were reversed and that the Jews were there pre holocaust and the Pals were the vicitms of the Nazis if the Jews would be so open to letting unregulated amounts of arabs into what jews consider holy ground (all of israel/west bank/gaza).I think not.Israel will always be the decider of whether there is peace or not since the worlds only superpower is Israels best friend.ISraels and the US nuclear arsenal insure this.Any talk of arab retaliation as a serious threat is dillusional or highly politicized.One reader said that all arabs in Israel should be asked whether they will accept Israel.Then the question to Jews should be whether they should all leave the West Bank.I think negative results would come about from both sides.Israelis have a right to be,but only as much as the Pals.Zionism disagrees.

"And yes, we will see Israel and the Jewish community that supported Israel and its crimes in courts' You forgot about the tens of millions of US Christians who support Israel financially and with prayer. Course your posit is ludicrous, and laughable, and no wonder the Palestinians are stateless and eternally embittered if this is the area their most ardent supporters are concentrating their efforts.

Isaac, and Jacob in the Torah??????? LOL Tell me the truth, like Khalid, you're bitter at the US Christian support for the miraculous nation of Israel, aren't you?

Lebanon is responsible for the safety of its civilians when it allows Hezbollah terror trash to launch missiles at a sovereign nation. Further, you don't speak the truth. News reports from last summer confirm that Hezbollah targeted civilian cities at the same time they murdered/abducted Israeli soldiers.

The UN condemned Hezbollah and Lebanon in Security Counsel resolutions for starting the war with Israel.

That the problem with the world was that they refuse to accept the fact that they 'Must serve the Jewish people and the Jewish State of Isreal.' Wait as long as you want Bill. As long as you are waiting for your 'servants' to understand their role, you'll be waiting a long time.

Israel kidnapped and killed Hezbollah members in 2002 and 2004. So obviously Israel started the war. The 2006 kidnapping was a response by Hezbollah for Israel's initial aggression. 10.000 Arabs in Israeli Jails. How many wars did Israel start in order to detain that many. Let's see, 2=1 war, so 10,000=5,000 wars. Apparently, by your logic, Israel has started 5000 wars in the Arab world.

In the living God of Israel. They believed in Baal. Just after all their wanderings in the Sinai, and realizing there was already a country full of people on the Coast (the Philistines), they headed towards Judea, so as not to start a fight. Those people of Judea continued to worship Baal, and they were pagans. Judaism did not exist until 550BC. How can you claim that the Jews were saved in 1200BC? It is absolute nonsense. Only someone who reads with their heart, and not their mind, would fail to see that.

The Story of Moses is in all three. Only the Zionists believe that Moses was talking to Jews, that didn't even exist at the time, when he led his people out of Egypt. Of course the knowledge of the bible is in my head. That is what educated people do, they read and analyze. The true Christians believe that Jesus comes back from the rubble of Jerusam, not some Jewish savior. They are as messed up as the Zionists. They want to support the Jewish State, so that Moab and Gomer and the rest will attack it, 2,000,000 will die, and Jesus comes back. The Shiites think the same thing, except it is the 12th Imam that climbs out of the well on the day of reckoning. In the end, we are probably going to have a war, some guy is going to win in Jerusalem, 'It's Jesus' the evangelicals will say. 'It's the Jewish Saviour' the Zionists will say. 'It's the 12th Imam' the Shiites will say. Just follow me, the 'Savior' will respond, and stop fighting for God's sake.

is a fraud & none other than that spineless jerk & arrogant "wannabee" from Canada who as you put it "stalks" women. Probably to make up for his recent confession to Ronnie that he is a weak individual totally dominated by his wife. Understandable that she is stronger than he..... She's ISRAELI! Leaving him just, HENPECKED & FRUSTRATED

that irrational, arrogant,ignorant "wannabee" from far away Thornhill, Toronto, Canada who used to post here under another name. Which one is like Coke.........."The REAL Thing"

Don't use words such as "Fascism """ anytime you disagree.Doing so,you empty the meaning from the word .. WRONG VEry,very few Jews are leaving their community and their beliefs .. How would you like to receive rockets everyday as in Sderot ???? I bet you are comfy in your armchair ... Your attitude is NEGATIVE .This is not the way to achieve peace ...

israel looks like any other experienced bandit who cannot survive without scaring and robbing others whom he see's him self super to. USA is the "merchant" who buys ALL what this bandit forcefully executes. so in order to stop this bandit from continuing his" profession" is to stop buying his stolen "merchandize" that simple. one thing extra to say is that the stolen property is sold for very cheap price from that "merchant's" view point. u want peace go to that criminal merchant. he is the real criminal

Sorry sg, I don't need any divine inspiration. The only facts that Israel has to justify its actions are long dead words from long dead authors. The Zionists took advantage of Arab Hospitality. They were an organized force. Clever, deceitful, totally dedicated to their cause, first they lied about requiring a Jewish State, then they lied about accepting the UN borders, then they lied about being willing to share Jerusalem .... You know what sg, I'm pretty sure they're still spewing lies. If they had been able to stay in south Lebanon and crush Hezbollah we would be hearing every day of new settlements and Lebanon having no right to the land they lost in war. As I said, very clever, deceitful, manipulative people.

1. The Zionist in 1917, agreed to a Jewish Homeland. Once sufficient numbers arrived, they lied and made it clear to the local population that they planned to build a Jewish State for themselves, not live with the indigenous people there. THAT POINT BY ITSELF, nullifies all the crying of pogroms and hostility. THE ZIONISTS LIED, and came to take the land. 2. Ben Gurion said, when talking about the partition, 'We want a Jewish State in All of Israel, but reality forces us to accept a Jewish State now, and worry about All of Israel later.' So even as he accepted the partition plan, he was basically saying it was a 'Jewish hudna', and there would be further expansion later. And we saw that in 1967. All the BS that is spewed is not going to change the fact that every zionist on this site wants Hebron and a United Jerusalem. So how would they have accomplished that without trying to make it look as if Egypt started the war in 1967.

Saudi's or some EU Goverment?

Prof. Strenger: I share your views. Shalom

But they did not win the war with Hezbollah. The goal of the war was not to stop rocket attacks into Israel. The only rocket fired before the war started was the bait fired into an empty field to kidnap the soldiers. The was STARTED the rocket attacks into Israel, it didn't stop them. Israel didn't even know that Hezbollah could hit Haifa before the war started. Anyway, 220 rockets hit Israel on the last day of the war. And Olmert clearly stated that the goal of the war was to release 2 soldiers and destoy Hezbollah. What is clear to me, however, is that if Hezbollah was not able to fight off Israel, there would still be soldiers from the IDF there. And the Lebanese would still not have been allowed to return to their cluster bombed fields and homes. And as soon as Hezbollah was crushed, Jewish settlements would have started popping up all over South Lebanon. If the Jews want to live in South Lebanon, they will have to make peace, then buy property, then come.

Hello, Jeff, I hope that you are well. It would seem that he lacks logic. Yet, I am quite convinced that he is always looking for a way to undermine Israel by any means possible, even to the point of advocating her possible expulsion. Do not worry about his behaviour towards me. It is of no importance whatever. Thank you, and regards, Cipora

You well know before others that injustice will never stand no matter what even if this peace imitative accepted the Palestinian still will be unfairly treated

There will always be an Arab Israeli conflict. No amount of 'acceptance of responsibility' will resolve this fundamental problem. Given that, what are the implications for Israeli policy makers? I think it is clear that Israel not agree or do anything which is counter to its national interests, in the hope that this will assuage the Arabs who are opposed to it. Rightly or wrongly, Israel will always be viewed as an interloper, as a crusader nation in a sea of Arab nations. And like the crusader nations of yore, Israel must and will eventually be vanquished. The Arabs merely need to wait it out. Consequently, there is no reason why Israel should accept a one-sided Saudi peace initiative, especially if it is forced to do so. Israel must adopt the same patient, wait and see attitude that the Arabs nations have. The Middle East is rough part of the world. There is no way for Israel to win by being weak.

Howdy Tosefta; The "recalling" of Israel's acceptance and desire to implement UNGARs 181 & 194 was offered as evidence of her satisfaction of the requirements for her admission to the UN as contained in Article 4 of the UN Charter and not as additional necessary conditions which would have been illegal by a previous ICJ ruling whose decisions the UN is bound by. The fact that the Arabs rejected both UNGARs making their full implementation impossible caused both of them to die an early death. It was Israel's intent to comply with them which was cited, but they cannot be used as necessary conditions for Israel's admittance or continued membership in the UN. If you don't believe me, then take your case to the UN and find out. And stop insulting Cipora. She's more logical than you are by a long shot.

So, Israel must withdraw from all the territories, including the ones it won in the 1948 war, that the arabs started. Brilliant. Do you know how childish that looks? Say I start a war with you, I get my butt kicked by you, then I demand you give me back what I lost to you in a war I started. Do you see? Say if Israel lost territory to arabs, do you think the arabs would give it back? Grow up. You started a war, you lost it. Deal with the consequences like all other adults do.

Said as a true professor of psychology. Sorry to say that I don't think the Israelis will be able to "psych out" the Palestinians with their Hebrew psycho babble about being sorry they survived in 1948, and now just wanting to just please get along. . . another Israeli fool bites the dust!

Howdy Pablo; There is no international law which can force a sovereign country to accept as immigrants hostile foreigners. The Palestinian refugees made their bed in 1948 and now they have to lie in it. They declared their hostility to and rejection of citizenship in the State of Israel by (for the most part) voluntarily leaving even though Israel appealed to the Arab population not to do so. It is perfectly understandable that Israel does not want undesirable aliens or their descendants who (for the most part) did not own the land in the first place. There have been hundreds of millions of people who have fled various wars around the world for the past 68 years and not one of them has a "right of return" to their places of origin. Only the Arab countries (except Jordan) deny citizenship to the Palestinian refugees and their descendants (even though they were born in the host country). Take your gripe to the Arab countries. Israel already did her bit by absorbing most Jewish refu

in your head,but not in your heart.what happened to those people who did not praise Yahweh?if you were alive then,you might be one of them also.whether there was no judaism or not - still.. these jews have believed on the living God of Israel since abraham time.bernie,are you talking about spiritual jews[true christians] and jews[descendants of david literally].the true christians respect jewish people[for the sake of the living of God] because their Savior is a Jew.you don't argue with God.

"If Arab Jews were kicked out, they can return to as part of a peace deal" It won't be happening. Even Kofi Annan realized this as he was leaving the United Nations.

"The Jewish State has created AntiSemitism." No. Islamic clerics who have preached antisemitic sermons based on their hatred of Israel speaks to their own moral failures.

"If kidnapping 2 soldiers is an act of war," It was. I would have thought an intelligent person would have realized this last summer.

Howdy Elias; Trans-Jordan was granted a certain amount of self-autonomy under the Hashemite monarchy in 1922 (so was Egypt in the same year), but it remained a part of the British Mandate of Palestine as a British protectorate until 1947 at which time she was granted full independence. That is a fact. I'm surprised that you, as a Christian Palestinian, would rather live as a dhimmi under Sharia law instead of under Israeli law. Quite a few Palestinian Christians have been leaving the PA administered areas of the Palestinian Territories including and especially Bethelehem for less oppressive environments and better lives elsewhere whereas the Israeli Christians seem to be staying put. Are you sure that you know what side that your bread is buttered on?

"then I guess the 400,000 Palestinian refugees that landed there can return home then." They ARE home. Arabs can continue to allow them to rot in Arab created camps, or leave them stateless for eternity, but they ARE home.

"That is the danger of the Jewish State. It promotes antiSemitism." Nonsense. Hatred of an entire group of people is a reflection on those who have chosen a moral code of hatred, not on Jewish people. Because of martyr trash bombers is it morally acceptable to hate all Arabs?

From UNGA Resolution 273 (III): "Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 and 11 December 1948 and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representatives of the Government of Israel before the Ad Hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions, The General Assembly Acting in discharge of its functions under Article 4 of the Charter and rule 125 of its rules of procedure, 1. Decides that Israel is a peace-loving State which accepts the obligations contained in the Charter and is able and willing to carry out those obligations; 2. Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations." I understand that Martians who engage in ceaseless warring and worship the god of war Mars are not strong in logic. So let me try to explain how things work here on Earth. An important rule is that you do not put down IRRELEVANT statements. Example: Your post is filled with irrelevancies. One can tell that you are not an intelligent Earthling; either a dumb Earthling or an alien. Now let us look at how the UN resolution is formulated: The General Assembly noted Israel's statements before the ad hoc commission about implementing Resolution 194. The GA did not note that the weather was fine on that May day. The presumption therefore is that Israel's statements were important for the GA to reach the following conclusion. And that was, that Israel is a PEACE LOVING state. It is SPELLED OUT for everyone to see, including Martians. This condition of admission to the UN is required by the Charter. You see how simple it is? Now go back to my post #202, read it sloooowly and carefully, and try to assimilate our logic into your system.

"Israel is not above the law, one day they`ll have to come to terms with either a Palestinian state established alongside Israel, or a 1 state solution with equal rights for JEWS and ARABS" Israel will never be forced to accept millions of hostile Arabs. Unless the Palestinians renounce terrorism, they'll remain stateless for another 60 years.

it upon himself to advise Palestinians and Israelis, to speak on behalf of the world, or Ghandi ("what he would do") and to present to us India as an example (it voted against the Partition Plan). What he avoids to tell us is that never in the history of mankind has there been a more miserable (700 million poor), unfair (filthy rich, abominably poor) place than India, with Calcutta alone the world's symbol of the tragedy that the 20th century has brought to us, with its millions of starving children, homeless beggars, infected with all sorts of diseases, with its outdoor plumbing, while the elite lives in mansions and spends money on a multibillion nuclear program. Lakshmi - do you really think that we need an advice from a place like that? Do you really think that what India votes for or against has any relevance, when we cannot even visit India for fear of multitudes of diseases, sky-high crime, and general horror? Of course, you might not even be from India...

Have you read the words of UN Sec Ban? "Ban, currently in Germany for the Group of Eight summit, "points out that the State of Israel is a full and long-standing member of the United Nations with the same rights and obligations as every other member," it said."

I am afraid even you are falling to their plot. There is no unalienable right of nations for self determination. There are virtually thousands of nations (languages) in the world and only some two hundred countries. Obviosuly only some nations are entitled. Why, davka, Palestinins should be those who have it unalienable?

#223 alleges that the Palestinians fought for Britain against the Ottomans.I do not know where he obtained that information. Lloyd George, the British prime minister stated, "Most of the Arab races fought throughout the war for the Turkish oppressors...the Palestinian Arabs fought for Turkish rule."See Benny Morris,Righteous Victims(New York: Vintage Books,2001) at page 82. Your statement that the Balfour Declaration is racist, because it refers to Arabs and Palestinians as "NON JEWS" is nonsense, because they are, in fact, not Jewish - a fact.Since you do not believe in facts as they relate to the Jewish state, noting that you erroneously placed Jerusalem in a state called "Palestine", I would suggest that you read more on history of the region and less hateful Arab propaganda.

Yeah joe jews are racists,those who believe in jewish religious law are the most racist on the planet.Don't believe me,read jewish religious law.

Strenger is more concerned with feelgood therapy for the issues rather than honest evluation. Misguided Political correctness does not make for honest resolutions of problems. The therapist shopuld get the patient to take responsibility for his problems not get others to do so. Otherwise we can also have Jews taking responsibility for German frustrations that led to the holocaust. why not? Strenger has written a piece that avoids the real issues, the histiographical analysis, and glosses over facts that all Arab countries wish a middle east without Jews.CBT might help Strenger be a little more rational and intellectually honest.

OK: again he states Israel created antisemitism. It DID? The point of the Jewish state is for the Jewish people to be in control of their lives and their future because as a minority they get beaten to smithereens and exterminated. Do you truly have no idea what has happened to us the last 3,000 plus years? And do you truly not know how Jews are treated in the Middle East? Or other minorities for that matter? Good heavens. And, Israel is necessary as a place for Jews to go when the inevitable occurs. There are only 14 million of us, which is 2 million less than in 1930, which should give you a clue as to what happens when bigoted majorities victimize tiny minorities especially when that minority is Jewish. Because, sir, Israel didn't create antisemitism. Israel was born at least in part because of it.

Look on the internet. There are reams - volumes of information available about the pogroms in the Arab world during the 20th century and the attacks on Jews - do you really think we're making this up? Good heavens. The most recent threats were against the tiny remaining Jewish community in Yemen.

Bernie claims Israel is an "expansionist state", even though 90% of the land conquered in 1967 was returned - oil wells and all, and Gaza was vacated to the last Jewish bone, and Israel withdrew from Lebanon with the UN supervising to make sure not one centimetre remained under Israeli control. Of course those last two withdrawals resulted in war and terror. But no big deal, right? Now, Israel is offering to withdraw from the precious, strategically vital Golan in exchange for peace with Syria. Fine. That definitely shows how expansionist Israel is. So now, explain to me how the Arabs got 22 enormous states, conquered Spain, and still control much of Africa. ?

The one who does not get it is you. The UN is not a high school, but an international body where all members are sovereign states. The only rules that bind the UN per se, are the rules of the UN charter. Israel was admitted to the UN because she was found to fulfill the conditions for admition: she was a state, she was able to comply with the charter, she was willing to comply with the charter, and she was found to be peace loving. The determination that she was peace loving was based on the fact that she had formed a democratically satisfactory government, and that she had signed armistice agreements with the states that had attacked her and with which she had had a conflict. The ICJ had ruled that only these conditions can be required for admission to the UN. No matter how often you post your outrageous assertions regarding additional conditions, they will remain only your made up manipulations. You are truly shameless.

Sir, you write that since the Nazis were responsible for the Holocaust the Jews are responsible for the Naqba. Since when did the Jews attack the Germans? Did the Jews make a war against Germany? I think not! However, the Arabs made a war against the Jewish community and then, against the State of Israel. Isn't there ANY sense of responsibility on the Arab side whatsoever? Even a smidgeon? I'll tell you what: as a Jew I personally apologize. Now, let's hear a response from an Arab person, apologizing for having started a war, a terrible war, that was unnecessary, that resulted in many deaths and rivers of tears. Anybody?

I invite Johnboy to enhance the message, if possible, and explain the pertinent legal issues to Jeff Northridge.

Jeff, How many Arabs left I know, as do many people. (Your own numbers are on the upper limit estimate.) What I think neither you nor your "sources" know is how many who owned property left and how many of those who stayed owned property. That does not stop you from making statements. About all the facts you mentioned in your post #143 are wrong, as usual, and as I indicated in #188,9. As I mentioned earlier, I am not going to discuss with you the Jewish refugee issue, and not only because you don't know how many were forced out, how many just left of their own will (like Moroccans), and how much property they left behind. In any case, such blanket statements as "Since the original numbers and corresponding property losses of Palestinian and Jewish refugees were approximately equal, we might as well call it even", which are based on mere ignorance, just give an example why it is useless to discuss anything sensible with you.

I appreciate your posts and read them daily.For years I said what was done to our family in 1948 was terribly wrong,our 7 generation farm was confiscated,but it is over and done with,I wanted to see peace.After watching the brutality of the occupation and the continued land confiscation my desire is now quite different.I simply wish for the israelis exactly what they wished for our family and thousands of others,may it happenin my lifetime.

With this line of thinking Poland should apologize for the Nazi invasion and the SS atrocities in 1939. This is not an "Arab" problem, or a political misinterpretation of Balfour, etc. Nor is it an geographic dispute (Golan/Gaza/West Bank). It is clearly a problem of the Muslim Brotherhood taking up their clear Quranic call to murder their opposition, in this case Jews. It is not about Israel. it is about Israel GONE. No more Jewish people or Zionists. And then how many infidels will be next.... How many Christians. Not sure?? Just count the number of churches in Saudi Arabia. Hmmmm...

"for gujrati police killing muslims is perfectly normal" news analysis india reported in an article by liz matthews on 6th may 2007.

Hey Carlito Where is this leading us?We don't need this type of legitimazation thank you. Arabs are extreme no matter where they are,or with who they are dealing with.Let alone with our dear and precious Israel,and its citizens. We do not engage witht the Saudi initative because it is a poison chalis,and Israel does not want to die in such excruciating manner Mr.Strenger.The Palis? can celebrate their nakba,or whatever.Their problem, and initiated by their brethren Carlito my friend.And why bring in the suffering of the Jews during WW2 into the equation.We are aware of it and please patronize us not,to justify your article. Professor or not you are being disigenuous,and no doubt lean toward a "leftist" persuation I dare say. Convinced on your rhetoric I am not.

Good that u have said it. We keep screaming: Just treat the Arab Peace Initiative, but Israel seems deaf!