Where Hamas and Fatah meet

Better yet, it would be like the British making peace with the Irish. The analogy of Al queda is pretty silly. You would be better off comparing it to the Irish REpublican Army.

Fine, that was indeed about "the vast majority of Arabs throughout the world." What about the humiliation we inflicted, and are still inflicting today, on the Palestinian people ? Aren't you willing to discuss it ?

My original post was an answer to Saleem's post at seventeen. He was the one who spoke of the humiliation and indignity of the vast majority of Arabs throughout the world. It seems that you had not read his post. You cannot understand my posts without reading his post first.

To begin with, you surely read me wrongly : I didn't say, and neither Prof. J.Talmon did, that "This humiliation is the effect of the conflict" - but rather of the prolonged occupation and settlement policy. This occupation and settlement policy ARE NOT the conflict. They were our own decision-makers' foolish way to manage it. See former IDF general Shlomo Gazit and his "Trapped Fools or Thirty Years of Israeli Policy in the Territories". You must have read Talmon's letter incorrectly as well, if at all. If you had, you wouldn't say that he meant "the humiliation of the vast majority of Arabs throughout the world." And if you did, go back to it, and read : "Mr. Prime Minister, with all due respect to the head of the government and the fellow historian, allow me to inform you on the basis of decades of research into the history of nationalism, that however ancient, special, noble, and unique our subject motives are, the striving to dominate and rule, at the end of the twentieth century, *a hostile foreign population* which is different in its language, history, culture, religion, national consciousness and aspirations, economy and social structure - is like the attempt to revive feudalism." What do you think is this "hostile foreign population" which Talmon said, in 1980, we were "dominating and ruling", then as we are still today ? The "vast majority of Arabs throughout the world" - as you said ? Be serious.

'67? been there done that. Israel was a heartbeat away from Beirut, Damascus , Cairo and Amman and didn't move in. Of course that's neglected when talking of Israel's expansionism. If we'd have had the '67 borders in '73, this talkback wouldn't be here because Israel would have been finished. No honest person can ask Israel to put herself in that position again, and there is nothing going on in the arab world to give any reason to expect quiet

Res. 242/338 say many things, one thing they absolutely do not say is that Israel has to make a full return to '67 borders and give all this land to palestinians. You keep repeating this ad nauseum, show where it says that. You'll ignore this obviously because it's impossible to do. What do you think you can just keep repeating that the sun sets in the morning and rises at night till it becomes true? Get a grip and get real.

He is talking about the "humiliation" of the vast majority of Arabs throughout the world. I wonder whether it is this "humiliation" that caused the Arabs to attack Israel in the first place, whether it is "humiliation" that caused them to side with Nazi germany, whether it is this "humiliation" that has caused Arab governments to keep their Arab brethren in refugee camps for nearly sixty years. If anything, it is the larger Arab Oumma that is mainly responsible for the disastrous situation in the Middle East. You must surely know that in Arab culture every defeat is considered a humiliation and a stain on honor, which is why there are blood feuds and "honor" killings. This "humiliation," this stain on "honor" is in large part the cause of this conflict, not its effect.

Who are you trying to impress? Is it the Slovaks? After the holocaust and some of their leaders were hung at Nuremberg for collaborating with the Nazis, they set up a government in exile called the Slovak World Congress made up of ex officials from the Nazi puppet government to lead their community. They have written books in their community and justify their support for Hitler. The same happened with the Romanian Community under the leadership of the Iron Guard and the White Russian or Bealorissian Community and all the Eastern European Communities. The fact is, Israel is a Jewish State and the Arabs in the territories want out. The longer they remain, they will have no life. Let them live and work and forget 'palestine' in any other country. They are hard workers. Let them work and stop being used.

The Arabs of Israel-No problem. Maximun debate must happen with respect to the Olmert Plan. The plus and minus issues must be debated with the bottom line being a Jewish State with security. Once this reaches it's logical conclusion and the majority of the Arabs in the territories are out, their brothers in Israel pre-67 will also want out and conditions for them must change to help them reach this decision. The Jewish State with Security is the answer.

So the only answer is to reinvade part of Gaza to wipe out the Kassams, and to leave every existing settlement in all parts of Israel as the front line against the Arabs. Only then will there be some semblance of security.

Rubenstien ignores an important point. If Israel withdraws to its 1967 borders and allows Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, Hams will lose a lot of its militancy - Palestinians will have a place to live and move with dignity and security (if Israel doesn't invade them). This will remove a motive for militancy and Hamas will have to moderate itself or lose support. The Arab League too will recognise Israel. The question is will Israel and US real estate business pull out (completely and to its 1967 borders) ? This will mean dismantling all settlements and allowing free access to Palestinians to the land and water in their country. The only alternative would be to wait for the ruin of the US empire and the end of US aid to occupation.

Meir, I guess you would feel differently if someone suggested removal of the Jews to other countries, no matter where in the world that might happen, seperate yourself from Israel for a moment...I recall the slogan, "Never again" but if it does not apply to Jews, is it acceptable to you?

The difference between this and convergence is that convergence offers better security and no de facto recognition of their sovereignty (Hamas wants recognition of 67 borderr sovereignty without peace), this means easier IDF movement (as well as continuing Jordan Valley presence) Convergence also offers momemtum and a better long term diplomatic position. No peace one fails to make now cannot be attempted again after convergence. In fact disengagement is in accord with continuing peace talks about a full peace settlement. The one fact about a peace is the need for international financing of refugee compensation. Neither the EU or the USA is well placed to do that now (unless they borrow the money and establish a schedule for repayment out of future budgets).

From an open letter Prof. Jacob Talmon, of the Hebrew U of Jerusalem, wrote to PM Menahem Begin, in 1980, seven years before the 1st Intifada : "It will be extremely difficult to stop the creation of a situation involving a frontal confrontation between the two peoples, using methods which recall so well conflicts between the privileged English settlers and the Irish tenants, the Prussian policies toward the Polish peasantry on Prussian territory, the same miserable combination of discrimination, tricks, bribery, confiscation, compulsion, expropriation - and, on the other hand, agrarian revolt and repression by military police? [...] Let us not compel the Arabs to feel that they have been humiliated until they believe that hope is gone and they must die for Palestine." See under: "A Prophetic Message from the Past" http://www.fmep.org/analysis/articles/prophetic_message.html

Ben Gurion, I quoted Avneri only because it was he who has said it not because of who he is and he is a sid eissue in these dicussions. But I agree with the general tenore of your posting. Regarding the convergence, your position as Ronnie's is that something is better than nothing and that convergence will ultimately bring to peace. I just don't buy it because the convergence scheme is precisely a tool to avoid the real thing which is the return to the 1967 borders. he mistrust is a two way street and the mantra of partner abstence is tiresome. There is a ready partner to discuss the implementation of 242/338. That partner is not interested in an Eiland type 'solution'.

Are you saying that this particular sense of "humiliation" justifies the practice of going around the world and blowing people to smitherins? Are you saying that Ben Laden, Al Zawahiri, and all those who send young people to blow themselves and innocent civilians to bits suffer from this particular sense of "humiliation"? Of all the world's population, why are the Arabs so entitled? Do you realize that so-called Arab "humiliation" is the cause, not the effect?

So they said what they said. So what ? No Israeli government has ever looked into those texts to determine its policy. Herzl also said the rabbis will be confined to their synagogues and the army to its barracks. Are they today ? All those quotes of yours are nothing but deceitful, deceptive and worthless. In one word, and in less clean language, just bullshit. Find something else.

Israel government wants Palestinians to uphold agreements... While Israel does nothing but "dig in". Local paper says Israel is building a new settlement a hill top on the Eastern border next to Red Sea/?/Jordan River and has begun to construct foundations for a new settlement of at least 20 homes to be occupied by settlers removed from Gaza...Certainly not abiding by the Road Map so why should Palestians BLIND themselves to Israel's aggressions? Bush government has said "Gaza removals should NOT be relocated EAST of Greenline", and so it goes. Jim

"The Israeli occupation has created a bitter sense of indignity, defeat, shame, and humiliation that afflicts the vast majority of Arabs throughout the world."

S of London England. I completely agree with you. Every religion in the world has had access to Jerusalem and its monuments safely and securely since Israel captured it in 1967. I also agree that the refugees don't have a case in hell. I am just playing devils advocate in any prospective negotiations that might take place down the road. Yes the Arab countries that pressed the Palestinian Arabs to leave should compensate them for making them leave. We are on the same page my friend. Sorry if it came out the wrong way.

Oh what a terrible situation it is, honour must be restored, the shame, the humiliation. Israel can't dictate terms, never mind that she's giving away everything, she's dictating. You're like a petulant child, who spills his glass of milk and throws his cookies away. Nu, you can clean it up, until then you get nothing. If this is too difficult for you to understand, what can I say. A child gets sent to his room, the arabs of yesha should be sent to Egypt and Jordan if they think as you do ...and enough. done.

You know very well that demanding '67 borders is a non-starter so why do you even pretend to present it as an offer? Israel is under no obligation, legal or moral, to give away land to an entity that doesn't even exist yet, and didn't exist when she won it in war against how many nations? You aren't even straight enough to say that this was land that Israel won from Jordan and Egypt but you want it for yourself. You want to ignore the past, but only some of it. An admission that the arab league screwed you and put you in your mess would be a beginning, but that is too difficult for you. Blaming Israel and expecting Israel to give land is much easier. Israel is backing off and giving away most of Yesha and you guys don't see this as a good thing, you "Demand" more. '67 borders make sense to you because you're getting something for nothing, a failed policy of agression towards Israel gets rewarded with all the land back, What leaves you a little pissed with '67? Israel existing?

we are now starting to get some vocal support for the position that you have taken and I whole heartedly agree. The biggest threat to Jewoish demographics are not the arabs in Judea and Samaria as they would gladly relocate for less than it cost to uproot the Jews of Gaza . It is the Arabs in pre 1967 Israel and what happened in London and Toronto can happen in Israel and they are more numerous than in London and Paris and Toronto now. The logic is as simple as the nose on ones face but some people cannot see it.Am I missing something?

First of all, beat me if I know where have you read in my post that "the land never belonged to the arabs". This is a topic I do not deal with, because it leads nowhere. Second, Israel is no more at war against "the Arabs". [except Syria, of course, but they are wisely keeping quiet for a long time, and for their own sake]. This is a fallacy, repeated again and again to try to justify the continuing occupation. We declared war against the Palestinian people when we started foolishly to settle the land - without knowing how to convince them it is not theirs - they are now yearning to build their state on. And now, we do not know how to stop that war without conceding defeat. As for the refugees, I will not enter in a nth discussion about the reasons of their departure / flight / expulsion / escape. This would be irrelevant. All I strived to show is that these Gush Etzion lands having been legally bought by Jews before 1948, doesn't make them belong to the state of Israel. And if our government believes they do, he should have annexed first, AND THEN settled them. Or, alternatively, kept them settlements-free, until an eventual arrangement. This would have been the only wise policy.

The origins of the six day war are well known. If it was meant to be a colonial war, the Arabs lost it. Just as importantly, the USSR lost it, too.

"The world has had enough of that." Are you the world? As for France, a three week visit hardly can familiarize you with French thinking. France is hardly so simple.

So why do all the Arabs feel "humiliated?" Why are Muslims, even those who are not Arabs, blowing up people throughout the globe? Why is Iran threatening Israel? Why did Iranian agents blow up a Jewish community center in Argentina?

I am not surprised that you have incurred the wrath of the hybrid Yaacov Sullivan and his followers, Khalid, Dutch, etc. You are right on the money. They want it all and have always wanted it all. They gambled their farms and lost in the casino of life. They backed the wrong horses and lost the race. How can anyone expect a constantly attacked Israel to take anything the Arabs have to say seriously. Guarantees for peace?? Please. Israel has to look after Israel. The Palestinians need to grab what they can get and be happy with it. Terrorism will only certainly guarantee more death and destruction

In his diary Joseph Weitz then of the Jewish National Fund and later for the government of Israel said, "It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country. With Arab transfer the country will be wide-open for us. And with the Arabs staying the country will be narrow and restricted...the only solution is the Land of Israel, or at least the Western Land of Israel i.e. the whole of Palestine from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River without Arabs...the only way is to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries, all of them, except perhaps Bethlehem, Nazareth and old Jerusalem. Not a single village or a single tribe must be left.....

From Theodor Herzl complete diaries: "We shall have to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly"

Convergence will do nothing for security? I'm not sure about that but it's pretty sure that a continued occupation will do nothing for security - the past 39 years are best proof of that.

If you think that worldwide terror will subside once Israel withdraws to the pre 67 borders you are very naive. Muslims want much more than that and Israel is a lame excuse. If there was no Israel, they would invent one so that they could go on with the bloody annihilation of the Western heretics and their total submission. You don't seem to have a clue.

"The Israeli occupation has created a bitter sense of indignity, defeat, shame, and humiliation that afflicts the vast majority of Arabs throughout the world." Sallem "You say that the Six Day War has "created a bitter sense of indignity, defeat, shame and humiliation that afflicts the vast majority of Arabs...." Cipora Julianna Kohn It must be like talking to a, dishonest, wall.

I don't know how accurate those polls are, and I'll admit I don't really care,although yes it would be better if that's the way it was. The arabs aren't willing to take them in, they never cared for them. Yes I agree with you. I rarely enter your threads because you handle them very well, not because I don't read them with interest.

Peter, Perhaps you should be playing the Beatles number 9 backwards...You certainly have the concept of conflict resolution completely backwards. Can a married couple resolve a conflict by refusing to talk? Of course not. Israel has to give up on the idea that they and they alone determine the borders and to hell with the world. The 1967 borders make the most sense because they allow both sides to walk away a little happy, a little pissed, but with national honor in tact. Don't be on the side of rejectionism...Help get your people on the train.

Hello, S, Whenever people talk about the Arab population before the creation of Israel, they very conveniently forget to mention that that British Mandatory Palestine, and of course, before that, the Ottoman Empire, included at the very least not just present day Israel, but all of Jordan, what was referred to as Transjordan. It is obvious that population claims cannot be accurate, even taking into account a high birthrate.

What if Israel returns to the 1967 borders and the Palestinians, backed by Iran, bring mortars to the Temple Mount and start shelling the rest of Jerusalem. How should Israel respond? It would be tricky because Israel would not want to harm the mosques, but at the same time, respond to the shelling. Or should the rest of Jerusalem be put on the table. I have little confidence in paper agreements preventing this scenario

And the Arab had better damn well listen when he is spoken to by the conqueror! How dare he interpret his own history. As for the origins of the Six Day War and who started what, you had betteer get your facts right.

If anyone cared to know of Palestinian intentions all they need to do is read their charter and among them the PLO phased plan. Ten steps to the destruction Israel and the formation of an Arab "Palestinian" state. Steps 4 and 8 of the plan illustrate: 4)Any step taken towards liberation is a step towards the realization of the Liberation Organization's strategy of establishing the democratic Palestinian state specified in the resolutions of previous Palestinian National Councils. 8)Once it is estabished, the Palestinian national authority will strive to achieve a union of the confrontation countries, with the aim of completing the liberation of all Palestinian territory, and as a step along the road to comprehensive Arab unity. __------read between the lines-------

Withdrawing or not to the lines of June 1967 has nothing t do with you and your need to dictate terms. The world has had enough of that. Once negotiations begin and the two sides decide upon fair and equitable land exchanges, then those could serve as the border, but they will not be dictated by other side. They international community is beginning to hld israel accountable and expects it to uphold the requirements in the scores of UN resolutions which it has blantantly scorned for decades. As for France, I have just returned from there. While there is general admiration for Israel, there is no tolerance for the occupation. That is true in Paris as well as other cities. You've continued to cage the Gazans in, cut off all funds, withold their tax contributions and then you kvetch! Really, Miss Kohen you should not be surprised. When you back someone into a corner and threaten and humiliate them, they will react accordingly. That should not surprise you after supporting an occupation of

You can keep denying responsibility, but it will just prolong and worsen the situation. The arab league has never owned up to their mess and that's why they are choking. It isn't Israel's problem and that's why she's flourishing. The country is moving along, increased foreign investment, leaping and bounding in areas of culture and technology. You keep pointing the finger and don't realize that like a leper's, it's fallen off, and you're just shaking a fist in the wind. Israel does hold all the cards, you have nothing, no bargaining power, no ground to stand on, revisionist history that's being exposed, a dysfunctional society that's imploding, a welfare state that's been dis-owned. I'm in denial? Wake up and face the grim reality.

You say that the Six Day War has "created a bitter sense of indignity, defeat, shame and humiliation that afflicts the vast majority of Arabs...." No one humiliated you. You started an unprovoked, illegal war, which you lost. Egypt and Jordan, two key players in that war, have come to terms with it. It is time that you, and other like you, come to terms with it also. "Humiliation" is a state of mind, not a political, military or strategic reality. Learn to deal with realities, rather than what you imagine to be your "indignity." Just imagine if the Germans felt this way. They would have nothing, but bitter tears.

Hello Ben, What Sharon did with Gaza, was to present the visual and undeniable evidence of why Israel is not the cause of the absence of Pal state, at the cost of the minimal risk (so far). Along with WB withdrawal, it should also achieve great security and demographic advantages for Israel, as well as today?s absolute necessity to separate the two people. There are great contra measures to the potential military/terror threat including, as the last resort, re-occupation of WB parts, but under totally different image and circumstances and depending on the degrees of threat.. If it was so easy, responsibility and punishment free to assault Israel after unilateral disengagement, I do not believe the Arab world would have been opposing it so hard.

Under no conditions is Israel withdrawing to the 1967 borders. Israel will decide for herself what she can, wants and needs to do. Furthermore, Western opinion is turning away from the Palestinians. In France, in particular, there is an important change. The behaviour of Palestinians after the withdrawal from Gaza has disanchented many, boycotts not withstanding.

The Arab League did not create the problem. Zionism did. Zionism will have to deal with it or experience its demise. This settlement based on '67 or mutaully agreed upon fair and equitable land adjustments is the only solution that will work. If Israel doesnt not enter into negotiation as an equal partner and not the party holding all the cards, then Israel has no future and it will not be because of the Arab but its own intransigence and trying to convince the world it seeks peace when all it is doing is entrenching thir occupatioon. Then you will simply have to deal with the conseuquence but your attitude of contempt and derision is already bearing its fruit.

Both sides, what both sides?There's Israel and who in your equation? It's so convenient to ignore and rewrite history and life on the ground as you see fit. There never was a war between Israel and Palestine. Both sides. The lines prior to '67 were armistice lines and nothing more. The arabs refused to regard the lines as an International border and Israel was prepared to at the time. Why not then? Why now? Why then? Why not now? We were afraid of continued war and wanted lines in the sand.They wanted another shot and didn't want to be restricted by a line in the sand. They tried and failed a few more times and are now "prepared" to get what they don't have. We repelled them a few more times and are not willing to move back and give them another shot. Both sides. Jews and arabs. If you want to talk about "palestinians" talk to the arab league to take care of them. They created them, kept them in camps, never assimilated them, never supported them.

Get out of "Palestine" where is this place ? . one cannot find it in the kuraean Open the New Testament and see for yourself: The Land of Israel and the Jewish people.The Arabs missed an opportunity in 1947 when they rejected the UN Partition Plan for a Palestinian State,a State which they NEVER had.

first of all, you are still confusing history and basing all of your points on it. The overwhelming majority of arabs who left their houses did so willingly. Not so with the Jews in the Gush AND with the Hebron. Why must those thousnads of Jews be removed from their homes? They take up such a small portion of land and it never belonged to arabs anyway, so it should and MUST stay with the Jews. so much pain is caused from kicking so many people out of their rightfull homes that it must not happen, especially in the Gush for such a small parcel of land that borders the green line and doesnt ruin any "contiguous state" for the palestisians. The saddest part is the naive thought that removing to those borders will actually bring peace with the palestinains! Tell that to those in Sderot. There are a million actions on the arab side that shows they will NEVER make peace and not one that supports your theory enough to ruin countless lives for.

To resettle the Arabs should not be viewed as a negative position. The opposite is true. The average wage is $2.10 per day. The Arab polls have shown that the majority of these Arabs would prefer to move elsewhere or anywhere that offers more money and a chance to raise a family. Israel is here to stay and will win this battle but most of these Arabs are victims of their dictatorships and are pawns in a deadly game. The sooner they can be resettled the better for us and them.

Dear Mr. Rubinstein, Thank you for revealing us the `deep secrets` of every Pal`s desire. I know of the few myself. Certainly the right of return, maybe an open borders policy after that (rights to jobs for everyone), than maybe the mandatory amnesty policy from time to time for all the illegal accumulations. I doubt the list of the demands will end there, and obviously it is only natural for the `resistance` to hang over Israel in full force until `complete Pal justice closure?. So let us both dismiss all those `morons` suggesting there is no connection between the 67 borders and the building of Pal state. Together with Abbas we will walk that yellow brick road straight to OZ.

The Olmert Plan will not provide security. The fence can only prevent a degree of infiltration. All it will take is one missile fire at the airport and tourism will reach an all time low. Rabbi Meir Kahane wrote in his book 'They Must Go' the theory of the Jewish State Plan. This is the only plan that is viable.

Perhaps it's semi-miracle, I just can't explain or understand the Israeli leadership! First SHaron withdrew from the entire GAza Strip all 10,000 Jewish men, women and children, making them homeless and many jobless, and all forces. As a result Hamas was elected to power and there are daily rocket attacks on even more Israeli cities from Hamas controlled Gaza!!! Now they say they want to do the SAME to most of Judea/Samariah/West Bank! That would mean endangering all of Israel brining all cities within the new rocket ranges of Hamas, as Israel kicks out even more thousands of Jews from their homes!!!I guess we must pray for Israel to be SAVED from its own "leaders"?!

It's like listening to the Beatles revolution number nine only with '67 instead. 92% plus has been given away of lands captured in the '67 war, this more than meets the requirements of res. 242. The concept of attacking, getting back, attacking,getting back, doesn't work in the schoolyard let alone in war. Land was won from Egypt, Jordan and Syria, calling any of this land "occupied palestine" is simply put, a lie. Had the combined arab armies succeeded in '48, what would have happened to "occupied Israel"?

The cost is both financial and political. On the financial side; upon the unilateral disengagement from Gaza, Condi Rice "explained" to Israel: If you do things that are unilateral, it means they are good for you, so don't ask us to share in the cost. Israel may hear a similar explanation again. There is also the cost of the "wall", which will have to be moved later. But mostly, it is the cost of the property left behind. Instead of arranging (thru the PA) for Palestinians to buy private homes, thus lower sums to compensate settlers, Israel will bear the full cost of relocation. On the political front, one could get some concessions from the Pals. Example: Abbas could have agree to have Gaza "demilitarized". That would have prevented other countries like Russia from selling military equipment. Now the Russians discuss it with Hamas shamelessly (troop carriers, helicopters). The disengagement would have gone thru as planned, with both Abbas and Israel benefitting from the deal.

Larry to: Your solution on Jerusalem! Haven't the Brits'done enough damage as it is? And you go and propose the UN?The last entity we need to meddle in Our Jerusalem Larry is the UN.We do not want the UN or any other body to interfere with our sovereign Capital thank you very much. Israel is quite capable to carry its duty and is doing fine. The loooong gone refugees too have no right whatsoever for compensation either.They fled the place at the behest of their brethren,and have been put in the position they are in now.You only have to look at Syria.They do not in the majority give them any rights and it is a continuum of the previous 58 years. But,if push comes to shove,I would grudgingly compensate them with as little an amount as possible.We need the capital for our very deserving Jewish poor citizenry for a start.So, what I would suggest is the compensation should come from those of their VERY WEALTHY Aras who caused their chaotic position...

I really do not understand US ,israeli policy . Why the big deal with hamas victory ? As Mr Rubinstein for practical terms the diferences between fatah and hamas are not great. Both insist in the right of return. Both insist in the withdrawal to 67 borders. Neither recognize Israel ( Just look at Fatah constitution ).To boycott Hamas as israel is doing will backfire.Fatah will be seen by the international community as the only possible palestinian leadership.., and israel will be forced to to deal with some fellows that are not much better than hamas.Israel is placing herself in a corner. Instead of boycotting hamas israel should not boycott it so in the future israel could deal either with fatah or hamas. Divide to conquer.Israel instead is playing in plo hands

Alan We have said often enough about that a softly approach does not work.Nor does giving in either,as we have seen since Israel moved the settlers from Gaza,and the resulting consequences.Yes,oh yes!The erstwhile leaders like,M.Begin,and Yitzhak Shamir knew only too well,and didn't give a S..T what the world said or thought. This state of affairs began the minute they sow how Israel adopted the softening strategy.And they too are jumping on the band wagon as well by the silly boycotts etc. The only thing these Arabs(all of them)undrestand is total "Offence and Force". Don't we say the "Best defence is a good Offence"?That is what should be pursued.We wait and see what Olmert will do.If he fails to deliver a good result,then he should be removed promtly by the electorate...

We have something the arabs want, the arabs don't have something that we want, that isn't a typo. When they get that something, a desire to live in peace with us, we can consider giving them something, some land. The dynamic until now has been that we give a little and then wait. Then we give a little more and continue to wait. The response is always how terrible we are yadi yada. It's so stale by now that it falls on deaf ears. The arabs have shown that they aren't willing to give us that "something". Continued shelling from Gaza tells me that we should forget about giving away anything in Judea and Samaria. We are dealing with a bankrupt excuse for a society that is crumbling away. There is no basis for discussion with people that don't realize they have an empty hand. I believe the Amin Nussibah's here are representative of arab thinking and not BenG, and that's why the arabs of Yesha should be resettled as unappetizing an idea as it is.

Shimon, take a walk in West Jerusalem, Katamon, Talbiyeh, Ba'aqa for a start and see the number of Arab properties confiscated by Israel. Then go onto Jaffa, Ramle and Lud. Those owners of land must be compensated. If Gush Etzion was Jewish owned land before the State, then the owners should be compensated as well. This must be a two way street. The lines prior to June'67 must serve as the basis for negotiations. As I said if there are to be changes they must be fair and equitable and agreed upon by both sides. But the occupation and the lands taken must be ended. Otherwise, good luck with building more and more walls and less and less support from the international community from which Israel will be increasingly isolated. And no, I did not attend yesterdays march. I felt there is nothing whatsoever to rejoice about.

saleem What has all the bombings in Europe(Madrid U.K dreadful disturbances in France)Balli,Istanbul,Jordan,and now the daily killings in Iraq,additionally the latest in Canada (which was averted)to do with the so-called Arabs who falsely call themselves Palis? I think this shows your mindset and a typical one of Arabs in general...

first of all, its a very simple question that you sidestepped. If the land never belonged to the arabs, why do they get it for a palestinian state? The same can be said for parts of Hebron. Why on earth are they included in arab land if it was never theirs to begin with?? Simple enough question. As for the arabs who left their homes, they did just that. They werent kicked out. They left. Read up on your history. And do you know why they left? Becuase the arab countries asked them to so they can kill Jews better without their fellow arabs being in the way. And they were all too happy to leave. So they dont get land back for that. Never. And if anyone is responsible, its them, and the arab coutries that told them to leave. Its a very very different case than Gush Etzion.

Palestine? Where is that place? Do you mean that once upon a time Roman play of words to kick out the Jews, or do you mean that false country invented by the Brits which they called Jordan?

The Iran-Syria-Hizbollah-Hamas alliance points towards more war, sooner rather than later. Israel will have to take the next war-opportunity to reduce the Palestinian population, west of the separation line. Not much point in separation, if you don't actually separate.

Yes, these Gush Etzion lands have been legally bought by Jews before 1948. That doesn't make them belong to the state of Israel. Alternatively to an annexion, the heirs to their owners should have been told to wait until they could present their claims to those lands to the legal authorities of the Palestinian state to-be. In Israel, there are thousand of homes and fields, who where legally bought before 1948, by Palestinians who had to flee to neighbouring countries. Would that be a good enough reason for allowing those Palestinians to build settlements on them ? As for the '67 borders making sense, they did make sense to the Israeli government, just after the war, when it was ready to go back to them in exchange for peace, when Moshe Dayan declared he was waiting for a phone call. Before our decision-makers caved in to the disastrous messianic ideology of the Gush Emunim (Block of the faithful).

HISTORY HISTORY HISTORY JORDAN IS 78% OF PALESTINE NO ONE NEEDS TO CONFIRM THE FACT !!!!!!

STEVIE BOY , THE ONLY STOLEN LANDS ARE THE LAND STOLEN BY THE BRITISH FOR THE MAKING OFTRANSJORDAN AND THE HASHEMITES !! ALL OTHER TERRITORIES REMAIN THE JEWISH HOMELANDS . THE SOLUTION FOR THE PSEUDO PALESTINIANS IS TO RESETTLE IN JORDAN THEIR PALESTINE !!!

"Without the principle of the 1967 borders, without East Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state, and without recognition and some form of compromise on the issue of the refugees, there is no chance for a settlement, and probably also not for calm" That may be true, but the belief that such a retreat WILL (as opposed to may) bring peace is wishful thinking. World history (not just the period in Israel before 1967) shows otherwise.

"My only real regret here is that it is possible the removed settlers might be settled in settlement blocks like Ariel and the Maale Adumim corridor (E1). These are areas that will eventually revert to Palestine in all probability, so Israel will have to pay twice." - Ben Gurion And Israel will have to pay for a second wall as well. It also will remove bargaining chips from the table for nothing. Best to 'give' the turf away in negotiations, than give it for nothing (not even credit to the Palestinian negotiator). There are border adjustments needed for genuine security reasons. That is what needs to be maintained in negotiations.

Unless Israel returns the stolen lands of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Israel does not deserve peace if she refuses to do this.

Israelis have the mentality that we will never be defeated because we have survived until now. We are being surrounded and all it would take is a spark to start another war with the arab world. We have Hamas and Fatah with IJ and Al Queda in Gaza and the west bank. Al Quida and muslim brotherhoods power growing in Egypt and Jordan. Hiballah and Co on the border with lebanon. Syria and Iran in the background supporting these terrorist groups and Iraq in civil was which can spread across the region. It is a dangerous time and our enemies and more powerful then ever before and something must be done before it is too late.

And you can take that holiness to the bank, and along with a couple of shillings go to the movies. However, if you have sought to impress your audiance, with the idea that Palestine has no place for Jews, well, we remain unimpressed.

I don't see any terms for peace listed. I see a list of Palestinian demands. In fact, I see a reiteration of Palestinian demands. None of what is in the prisoner's statement is new. In fact, Abu Mazen issued similar demands when he was first elected. What it is short on is any offer of Palestinian responsibility to end their violence. That, would be a truly revolutionary document.

"Without the principle of the 1967 borders, without East Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state, and without recognition and some form of compromise on the issue of the refugees, there is no chance for a settlement, and probably also not for calm. No Palestinian can accept anything less than this. Surely not Hamas, but also not Abbas." That is why the Israelis claim that they have no partner for peace. The 1967 occupation has to end and the Israelis aren't willing to do that. They are still looking for a Palestinian leader that will declare that "Jordan is Palestine".

There is an easy military response to the Kassams. Inform the terrorists that we will fire our artillery at the spot where the rockets come from, no matter what. They will be given 24 hours to evacuate and then level everything where the rockets came from. And repeat this bombardment without warning every day at varied times. If the rockets come from further away then the artillery could be re-aimed for the new target and so on. Eventually the savages will either sue for peace or be pushed out of our beloved country and will no longer menace our innocent civilians.

'Convergence will do nothing for security' Of late, Israel is asking most of the time the wrong questions and getting almost all the time the wrong answers. That is Israel problem. The question regarding security should be asked Which country in the Whole Wide World is secure in our time ? The Whole Wide World is infested with hate. Don't ask me why. But the one who can't see that he must be blind. Israel must live in the real world. Security a word that dosen't exist in the dictionery any more. Israel needs Peace or rather the stander of Peace as it is understood in our time. Peace that can be achieved by vigilance and imposed by fear*. This is the current accepted curency. Dogs eat Dogs. Israel has to decide for itself and for the Jews. Either shut shop or live in the real world. It is not our classical enemies. It is today world stupid. Convergence ? My foot ! Akram Zekaria. *Heroism died in Hiroshima. And fear created since Hiroshima.

And where will all this get the Palestinians. Seems to me that instead of enjoying the fruits of hard work, building and creating, they will rather have to suffer the consequences of their intentions and current weapon accumulation activities. Not so?

There's no such place as "Palestine." That's a Latin name that you can't pronounce. The Holy Land is the Land of Israel. Your home is the Arabian peninsula. Go there!

the 67 borders make sense to you?? What about Gush Etzion? Its in the west bank but NEVER was a palestinain area and is 100% legally owned by Jews since before the state of israel was even created. By the way, being that you are from ny and the parade was yuesterday, i take it you were a protestor with the arabs?

What proof do you have that the arabs even want peace?? The overwhelming amount of terrorist activity, as well as the voting in of a horribly terrorist organization and a millino other things prove my point that they are uninterested in peace....what proves your side?? I do agree with you though, forcing Jews ot leave their homes wont bring peace...only the same war with many ruined lives on the israel side

"Uri Avneri once commented that to cross an abyss requires one long jump, not several steps!." Hello Michael, Avneri has a beguiling image, but it is not appropriate here. Of course, unilateral convergence is a product of shortsigtedness by former Likudniks known for their inability to see the distance. Convergence will not bring peace, it can't, since no Arab leader would agree to the imposed borders. But at least convergence gets us closer to the end game. Israel gives up on some territory which will have to go in any case, and removes settlers which will need to be removed in any case. The shortsighted have advanced one nose-length further. Peace might be a couple nose-lengths away, and finally we will get there. My only real regret here is that it is possible the removed settlers might be settled in settlement blocks like Ariel and the Maale Adumim corridor (E1). These are areas that will eventually revert to Palestine in all probability, so Israel will have to pay twice.

Michael,its Sharons plan and not mine though I endorse it as the only rational answer at the moment,so I am in good company.Before you get to all the details of any peace I want to remind you that Israel have no partner.I also remind you that I dont deal in rhetoric and am not part of any group even Kadima.I look at issues,issue by issue.And the issue at the moment,at least long term, has to do with trust. The Palestinians are not trustworthy enough to make peace,that will make Israel vulnerable.It doesnt mean I dont want peace and it doesnt mean that I wouldnt even give up even East Jerusalem for peace (though as some will point out its not mine to give)but that peace has to go hand in hand with trust and that takes time.Makinga deal with Abbas when Abbas could be the next victim of a fundamentalist bullet is out of the question I think,even though they all areplaying the game.All that is except BG who believes it. My politicsays that Israels security is at the apex of any peace plan

to the cause of "REASON". If every Israeli thinks in your term, Israelis and Palestinians are better off... So is the whole world...

Key issues, return of Land, East Jerusalem as its capital, and the right of return. On issue number one territorial concessions would have to be "bought" by guarantees from the Arab world. They want to be players, they have to join the club. No shortage of money, power, or influence. They can step up and be power brokers in the MIddle East. Why should the U.S. and the West fund the security alone??? Let the Arab countries that fear terror the most insure that Palestine and Israel work together. As for East Jerusalem, the only way to insure a vitally important religious sites security is by an international force. All of Jerusalem should be maintained by the U.N. or something like it. As for right of return. Arabs caused the Palestinians to flee, so they should sort it out. They didn't absorb Pals into their societies so they could live like human beings but kept them in refugee camps. Nice way to treat a "brother". Financial compensation and stepping up to the reality plate!!

Israels decision to take unilateral measures was a foolish political move. It places pressure on the Palestinians to come to the table early so as to insure that their demands could be met. However if Israel is deciding now that it will only return X tracts of land, then would negotiation make a difference??? It is merely demonstrating its intransigence in advance of sitting down with the Palestinians. On the other hand, it is a well known fact that weakness is always exploited by the Palestinians. They view the return of Gaza as a victory of terrorism over Israel. Would they not view unilateral returns the same way??? Would they not insure that the Hamas charter is carried forward even more??? Israel needs to do a structured withdrawal from the West Bank. Handing over smaller less important but contiguous tracts in phases, every six months. In return Palestinians would have to come to the table, with both key Arab and Western nations as brokers, and offer solid guarantees in exchange.

25 Years ago the government of Menachem Begin attacked and destroyed Saddams nuclear reactor. It took great courage and was in defiance of American wishes. He didn't care what the world thought but wanted to defend Israel. Reality has changed since then to a very very large degree. Islamic fundamentalism is rampant worldwide and even homegrown terrorists exist, case in point the recent arrests in Canada. While CUPE votes for a boycott of Israel they foolishly ignore the situation here at home thinking their stand will buffer Canada from disaster by siding with the Muslim world. Israel too must make painful choices but any unilateral ones will certainly preclude disaster. Gaza may be returned but the floodgates of terror have been opened through the porous border with Egypt. Serious miscalculation to appease the Americans and the world. But Sharon wanted to show willingness to make peace, what better place than the dreaded Gaza Strip. Even Egypt didn't want it back!!! Part 2

Is this the best Ronnie Wolman can come up with? Danny Rubinstein analyzes the situation acurately and lays out the options which on have been narrowed considerably with the passage of time, the damage caused to the Palestinians and the general foul mood on both sides. Uri Avneri once commented that to cross an abyss requires one long jump, not several steps!. The results of dragging on and concocting half measures are for all to see. The time has come for a quantum leap. Every thing has to be on the table- and negotiations must be with the legitimate representatives of both sides whoever they are. It must be internalised that the basis for negotiations are the 1967 borders including East Jerusalem. The question will be the future of the 3 major settlement blocks near the border. Either they will stay within Israel as part of territorial exchange or they will be incorporated into a Palestinian state! There are pros and cons for either solution. The right of return is less sticky .

If your want security, there is a convergence plan. CONVERGE at the New York stock exchange and get out of Palestine. You have no right to be there. Palestine is holy to Islam and Christianity, and is too crowded to support Jewish real estate agents

"The Israeli occupation has created a bitter sense of indignity, defeat, shame, and humiliation that afflicts the vast majority of Arabs throughout the world." Your culture revolves around "shame," which is holding you back. When you get to the point where you can feel "GUILT," then you will have advanced. Only then can you hope to live in freedom with leaders who treat you decently rather than stealing your nation's wealth and making you live under dictatorships. You have to CHANGE if you want something better rather than trying to blame everyone else for your problems.

"peace loving Moslems" maybe the older generation. But for the new generation that is an oxymoron. The new generation just now in Canada have shown themselves to be anything but peace loving. At least 17 of them have been arrested and are now under further investigation for bomb related projects. This is Canada you people !!!!!. Get hold of yourselves.

"Currently, fundamentalism appears to be winning out as people searching for a safe haven find one in Islam." The biggest target of Arab Islamic terrorism is Arab Muslims. Arab Islamic terrorists have killed over 4000 Arab Muslims in the past few months in Iraq. These murders are brutal, too. Heads are cut off. People are murdered by having power drills cut through their eyes. Many are blown up. Many others are shot to death. Sunnis are murdering Shiites. Shiites are murdering Sunnis. One Arab clan murders another Arab clan. Families kill their own sisters and daughters in "honor kilings." It's not an appealing picture. Islam is a danger to the world, but especially to Muslims. Sorry, but this is the truth. Ha'aretz, I know you won't want to post this, but it's true. As much as we all worry about Islamic terrorism, Arab Muslim terrorism is hitting Arab Muslims more than any other group.

I quote "The Israeli occupation has created a bitter sense of indignity, defeat, shame, and humiliation that afflicts the vast majority of Arabs throughout the world." Well what caused the Israeli occupation? Oh yes, Arab rejection of the state of Israel. The Arabs and Palestinians are therefore responsible for their own state of war amongst themselves, and the rest of the world.

Convergence. A euphemism for consolidation, annexation, unilateral expropriation. Get what you can while you can and never mind the criticism. That's what it is. It will not, it cannot lead to peace. Return to '67 borders or mutually agreed upon fair and equitable land exchange, discussion of the refugee question (which Israel has consistently refused to even mention, or even admit that it has any responsibility in the creation of the tragedy) and East Jerusalem as capital of Palestine, with the city open to all. These are the terms for peace and that understanding is becoming clearer in the international community. It is that or continues occupation which will lead to nothing but more of the same.

You wrote: "Or will it stubbornly hold on to it`s pet projects/agendas in the "conquered territories" inviting continued escalation of terrorism worldwide?" In other words, Israel has to give the terrorists what they want or the terrorists will blow up the world. You think this would bring peace? The large settlement blocs are on the high ground overlooking Israel. If I were you, I wouldn't count on Israel handing this over to people who intend to use this land for rocket launching. The "Your money or your life" demand isn't going to move Israel to hand over both to her enemies.

THE AREA OF THE MANDATE SET ASIDE FOR ARABS IS JORDAN !!!IT IS 78% OF THE LAND THE SOLUTION FOR ARABS WHO WANT PALESTINE IS TO GO THERE !!!

40 years after the 1967 war ! The Six-Day War created today?s battlefield. Peace now depends on unravelling the consequences of what happened during that momentous week almost four decades ago. we must look back and ask ourself what strategical changes have been occurred in the region since then? Does Israel became more secure and stable? Does the Palestinian resistance to Israeli aggression became more effective? The Israeli occupation has created a bitter sense of indignity, defeat, shame, and humiliation that afflicts the vast majority of Arabs throughout the world. Islamic fundamentalism and secularism are now challenging one another over leadership in the struggle for change. Currently, fundamentalism appears to be winning out as people searching for a safe haven find one in Islam. People feel that the secular West has humiliated them, and religion is the instrument through which to eliminate that humiliation. Stability at the cost of repression is an artificial stability, and potentially very dangerous. No better future for Israel in our region.

"Without the principle of the 1967 borders, without East Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state, and without recognition and some form of compromise on the issue of the refugees, there is no chance for a settlement, and probably also not for calm. No Palestinian can accept anything less than this." Recognizing this, the ball is, as always, in Israel's court. Will the government withdraw to Israel's own borders prior to 1967 and hopefully begin to diffuse the situation that has developed over the last 1/2 century? Or will it stubbornly hold on to it's pet projects/agendas in the "conquered territories" inviting continued escalation of terrorism worldwide? My hopes are that it will choose the former and that is it not too late.

Back when I served, in the US Army (ca.Vietnam), the saying was "If you don't want to be in harm's way, don't put on the uniform!" It seems that the IDF's mission has become protecting itself. Shameful!

A negotiated peace deal isn't possible. Abbas has nothing to offer. A "hudna" isn't peace anyway. It's a lull in the fighting until the time when Hamas feels they could defeat Israel completely, G-d forbid. Hamas has already made the offer that if Israel gives the Palis absolutely everything they want, Hamas might let Israel live for another 10 years until Hamas finishes defeating Israel at that time. No peace deal is possible because the most that Israel could ever offer is less than the minimum that the Palis would be willing to accept. So Israel has to do whatever's best for Israel. The Pali terrorists must be vanquished.

The anarchy in Gaza is largely the making of Israel, US, and friends. Its origin is the siege on Gaza following the Hamas win. This gives an opening to Fatah which believes it might be able to wrestle back its lost power. Of course, this is exactly in line with the Israel-US desires. But chaos is no good. Who will control the gunman and Qassam people? Minister Dichter is already suggesting that the IDF will return to take control over northern Gaza. This is rejected now, because it will show the shortsighted planning that goes into the "convergence" plan. Israel should follow a smarter policy: 1. RELIEVE the pressure on Gaza. 2. Negotiate peace with Abbas. Hamas prefers this. They will be delighted to agree to a hudna during the negotiations, in return for some needed relief. 3. Have referendum/elections (I prefer the latter) AFTER the deal is struck. 4. Israel moves to its legit borders (unilaterally), builds a wall if necessary. Cuts off electricity for Qassams.

If there are no soldiers in Gaza how can any of them be killed there?

In the short term it is all well and good with a wall inbetween us from Gaza they are mainly shooting missiles. But they are building up their arms, training many more terrorists, taking over the government and brainwashing the next generation to join in the terrorism. In the long term this is a big mistake and will show within a year.

What does he mean Israels' security situation hasn't improved since the disengagement. We left Gaza because we had enough of soldiers being killed there. How many soldiers have been killed in Gaza since we left...NONE!! That is what I call a 100% success rate for the disengagement!

Hamas and Fatah think the same really.They want the land back and if they go for the 67 lines thats about the best they will accept. The same on the Israeli side.but Israel will bever accept the 67 lines as a line. Convergence is the best bet for now. The Palestinian election actually put Hamas in power but took away their insurgence.This is the reason for relative quiet now. Hamas is playing the only card they have which is diplomacy. Its hard to operate in the shadows when you are wearing Zegna suits and because they want to reserve their place in the crowd they also wont allow Jihad freedom either. For the Palestinians,its time they realized there is no alternative to peace. Sole Armandine will lose his bullets soon and that is the last hope of any muslim resurgence of power.Muslims will have to start looking for a different ideal. The Palestinians should make less demands and start to build relationship with Israel. It will take time.But it really is the only way.

I think what is being proposed in your article is not a viable option Even relatively inaccurate gunners and primitive weapons would be capable of inflicting great harm on Israel from the West Bank, however. Every population centre, major highway and the country?s main civilian airport would be within range. Such attacks would be sure to take a toll,in lives and economic activity. Some will argue that it should be up to Israel whether such risks are acceptable or not. The repercussions of Israel?s withdrawal will not be hers to bear alone,however.American equities are on the line as well. For one, the effect of withdrawal is likely to weaken Israel conciderably,reducing it from a powerful and self-reliant strategic ally to a potential liability,one unduly dependant on the United States for its security.For example,Israel?s economy,which is heavily dependent upon trade and tourism,could be severly distrupted by terrorist attacks on aircraft flying to and from Ben Gurion airport and upon other critical infrastructure.For another,some forty percent of the Jewish State?s water supply comes from the West bank aquifers; a disruption of access to such precious resources in a desert could constitute an existential danger. A terrorist state on the West Bank will translate,moreover,into a threat to others in the region. Resulting probably the end of Hashemite Jordan?

'Hamas' one great aim is to destroy Israel. It is in their Charter. They do not deny it. Why do the 'negotiations as a way of disguising the truth ' people continue with their nonsense about a moderate 'Hamas'?

While I don't agree with Olmert's plan for the West Bank, it's sad to see fanatics trying to claim that: a) Gaza and the WEst Bank are identical situations b) The Gaza withdrawal hasn't improved our security situation. The two questions people such as Rubenstein will not answer, since that would necessitate dealing with a reality that contradicts the Right-wing fantasy, are: 1) How many Israelis died from Gaza terror in the year before disengagement? 2) How many Israelis died from Gaza terror in the year after disengagement? Disengagement has made us safer, both immediately in terms of casualties and long term by helping turn international support. The later's happened both by the simple fact of disengagement and the showing of Palestinians the way the really are. Gaza disengagement was right for so many reasons, but that doesn't mean it and the West Bank are identical. Both sides need to stop claiming that.

Actually Mr. Rubinstein, you're wrong. Perhaps not the disengagement itself, but the plethora of steps such as improved intelligence, building the wall, and the disengagement has reduced terror attacks inside Israel dramatically. Of course now we've got the Kassams to deal with. But we also have a freer hand to strike at the palestinians who launch them. And while a negotiated settlement would be preferrable, having a government on the other side make an effort to keep the peace. We don't have the luxury of a partner who is interested in making peace. (No, we don't. That's one of the reasons they voted in Hamas). Once we pull out, and if they continue with attacks, we will also have a freer hand to strike in the West Bank, and choke the population. Then we'll see a popular uprising, which will first bring chaos to the pals, then a calm border. Perhaps not the way we'd like to do it, but we don't have much of an alternative. You can talk yourself red in the face, it won't bring peace

It would be like the U.S. trying to make a deal with Al Qaeda. The Pal terrorists must be vanquished. It's the only way to quiet them down.

"The rivalry between Fatah and hamas creates... a situation that is very similar to anarchy..." The "'67 borders" is both a pipe-dream and HISTORY. Converge! Build the WALL ! Which brings up a VERY good point. If the wall, according to statistics, has prevented some 95% of the terror from occuring, what, in the name of hashem, will happen from hamas and fatah breaking each others' heads ? answer: the suffering of "bleeding hearts" i.e. LEFTists.

" ONLY IDIOTS CARRY ON DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND EXPECT A DIFFERENT RESULT EACH TIME !! KADIMA TO DISASTER !!!!