What the right has to offer

To us, it looks as though Israel has the avarice. Billions of US aid. Yet she wants to take from all her neighbours. Maybe because the creation of Israel was an act of theft?

?Benelux was indeed a confederation, based on equals, but a very loose one.? Luxembourg: a thousand sq. miles, 400,000 citizens. Given to Netherlands in 1815, half later given to Belgium in 1830, independent in 1867, joined Benelux in 1948. Belgium: 12K sq. mi., 10.3 million people. Netherlands: 16K sq. miles, 16 million people. Not all that equal, in practical terms. The history even more fraught than this brief outline. The centuries-long internal strife between the Walloons and the Flemings some say became the lens through which many other situations are viewed (many Walloons became social scientists). The Swiss look peaceful now, but plenty of intercantonal strife (like the 1847 Sonderbund war), much of it ethnically and religiously motivated. The ideal might be the serene relations among Francophone, Anglophone, and allophone in Quebec and Canada.

Concur. There are lots of sensible and caring people in Israel; Peace Now supporters, ex-service men and women included. The later group understands the futility of war and limitations of concrte barriers, and military hardware to secure lasting peace and co-existence. It is rather ironic that Israel, a country born out of European oppression, is rather obstructive in the creation of a Palestinian state for the oppressed Palestinian people. OK, the Brits messed it up, they always do but Israel must have the courage to right the wrong of the past.

I didn't have the opportunity to ask them, but I am pretty sure they too know about Arafat's speech at the Mosque in Johannesburg. As for "that big show put on for President Clinton", I am sure, too, that he is not the fool you are suggesting he is. Or was he? If he was, then you must agree that he and Ehud Barak have surely their part of responsibility in Camp-David failure. Be logical.

Prof. Zeev Sternhell is Professor of Political Science at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He is the author, among works in several languages, of Founding Myths of Israel: Nationalism, Socialism, and the Making of the Jewish State (1997), He is also one of the co-founders of Peace-Now. Retired General Shlomo Gazit, a member of Israel Policy Forum's Israel Advisory Council, and of the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University, served as head of Israel's Military Intelligence and as coordinator of Israeli Government Operations in the occupied territories. and then, went to serve two terms as President of the Ben Gurion University in Beer-Sheva. The title of one of his book, published in 1983, tells it all: "Trapped fools - Thirty years of Israeli Policy in the Territories". He has frequently and publicly exprimed his support for Peace Now positions. I could go on and on, naming a long list of public figures of the same caliber, like Amnon Shahak, who replaced Ehud Barak as chief of staff, and is known as a supporter of the Oslo process, or Amy Ayalon, former Commander of the Israeli Navy and later head of the Shin Bet internal security service, who, after he retired, came out openly with critical views of Israel?s policies and is currently a leading voice in the call for immediate withdrawal from the occupied territories. And so on. I have here to keep the list very short. They have all proved their loyalty to their country, and you will never convince me that all these are now self-heating Jews or victims of the Stockholm Syndrome. I just don't see any reason at all why they should be. So, given their credentials, and not knowing yours, don't be surprised if I stay thinking they and I are right and you are wrong.

Perhaps I should wake up before it is to late. And perhaps you should. We shall never know, until we end the occupation of a foreign weaker people. You will never convince me it is this occupation and the settlements we built and go on building in the territories, which can prevent "the Arabs" - whatever that mean - to try to eradicate the Jewish state.

Give them Zelzals

The above artice by Gideon Levy is a good one, sensible views and with good recommendations on the way forward. As history has demonstrated, might is not the solution. How many must die or suffer before the politicians realize that a two-state solution with agreed boundary and after proper restitutions, for half a century of injury, have been made to the Palestinians and Lebanon by Israel. In the long run, this could be a cheaper option and better chance for people to live in peace - rather than bad blood by the cyclical slugging of each other once in a while. Many countries have managed the transition from a bleak colonial past to become moderm and progressive nations. Certainly during the creation of Israel, the powers then did not engaged the Palestinians and the neighbouring Arab countries in a transparent and fair manner. The solution was forced down their throat. However, even in situation where there was initially good will, such as India/Pakistan partition, wars can happen.

"But it`s insane to think Israel can have more than 78% of the land and also have peace." But this is exactly what Israel thinks. It basically wants the Palestinians to be satisfied with only 20% of the land. That's the kind of deal these Judaics wish to strike. And, on top of that, they wish the Palestinians to accept those terms peacefully. Israel will be gone in a decade.

The real idiots are those who believe that being truly Jewish is supporting Jewish domination over a foreign and weaker people in the name of religion and the promise made to Avraham. The real idiots are those who seek to change Zionism into a crusade to reconquer the Holy Land, and that opposing fundamentalist Judaism to fundamentalist Islam can bring peace to the Jewish state. The real idiots are those who so foolishly mismanaged the '67 war results by covering the occupied territories with settlements, hoping stupidly that the people they found there would bear forever being ruled over by a foreign army. The real idiots are those who thought that confiscating the Syrian Golan would see the Syrians consenting to contribute a part of their land to the prosperity of Israel, and make them closer to make their peace with us. The real idiots are all those who supported the '82 desastrous invasion of Lebanon, whose only result was the birth of the Hezbollah. and then, went to support the dim-witted leaders who brought on us the first Intifada and the birth of the Hamas. The real idiots are all those who supported Ariel Sharon's assinine way to take IDF out of Gaza while turning his back on President Mahmud Abbas, leaving behind only chaos and anarchy, and the gates of the Strip opened to the most ferocious of our enemies. The real idiots are those who have the facts in front of them, but refuse idioticly to confront them, accusing the Left for all the disasters the Right has brought on us. Those are the real idiots.

Invite Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas to hold negociations, as soon as possible, on how to implement the Geneva Accord. See: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=349832&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

ummm a mistake? selfish?? israel is the size of new jersey. arabs have 11 countries combined over the size of the united states. it is the arabs that are selfish. they should take in their refugee bretheren whom have no right whatsoever to israeli land. they have plenty of room. why wont they take them in? because they know they are thugs and killers. so they leave them on israels doorstep like jordan did on black september. the "west bank" as it is labeled is eretz ysroel. the land of israel. the "west bank" has contains some of the most biblical cities of israel including hebron, bethlehem and kiryat arbah. jews have been there way before arabs. before you spew your anti semetic hatred on jews, learn a little history and be considerate to the tiny state of israel trying to survive like spec of dust among before you flap your gums. it seems like you have the same agenda as arabs. why don't you leave your cozy house in the U.S. and live with them to support their "cause".

The Arab League endorsed a 2 state solution, calling for a "fair" solution to the refugee problem, not demanding a right of return. The Palestinian mainstream supports a 2 state solution. Everything I've read says Hamas won the election because of Fatah corruption and Hamas' reputation for honesty and delivering social services to the needy. I read many compassionate postings from peaceloving Arabs in Haaretz. Regarding a solution, the privately negotiated Geneva accords point the way to a fair peace.

So, what is the solution we haven't tried yet? Transfer?

I agree that the one state solution will probably inevitable happen in the future, but I am afraid that it will take too much time. It would be so much better for jews and palestinians to implement one state solution now and end the hostilities and not leave this mess for the future generations to solve.

You are not telling the truth. It isn't the way of the Left which was tried from 92 to 2002. The way of the Left was put to an end by the murder of PM Yitzhak Rabin, followed by the torpedoing of Oslo by all the government who came after him. Palestinians didn't see peace during Oslo, they saw the occupation continue unabated. Within a few year of the redeployments, it became obvious, regardless of what Arafat and the PA were up to, that Israel's continuing land confiscation and settlement policy would be the death knell of Palestinian support for Oslo's process. In a conflict that is entirely about land and resources, how could any "peace" initiative by Israel be perceived as genuine when its bulldozers did not stop for a single day?

78% for the Jews, 22% for the Arabs of course refers to the land west of the Jordan. This is the land both sides have a legitimate claim to and will have to compromise over if there is ever to be blessed peace. For over 1700 years, virtually all Jews had only a rhetorical attachment to their Eretz Yisrael. If they wanted a bigger state, they should have been willing to make more sacrifices over these years to remain in their Eretz Yisrael. It doesn't matter what the British colonialists said in the Balfour Declaration or what one side's holy book says, but it does matter which side stuck it out over those 1700 years of foreign domination. The Palestinian mainstream seems to accept that they will have less land than they could have had in 1948, which is only fair considering what would have happened if Israel had lost in 1948, 1967 or 1973. But it's insane to think Israel can have more than 78% of the land and also have peace. And if there is no peace there will be a hellish future.

Is G Levy nuts? we tried the left's way from 92 to 2002. 97% of the west bank was offered to them. What? should the left have agreed to allow millions of refugees into Israel proper as was Arafat's demands then. Just admit there are no solutions and that Israel has always been a vassal state of the US. One day the US will feed us to the dogs.

"What about confederation?" - hesperus Confederation sounds like a nice idea, but it is based on the idea of equals. With the current attitude of Israelis towards Arabs - whether Israeli Arabs or Palestinians - as second class, there is still a long way to go. With the current policy of Israel - building the wall that separates villages from its orchards, and one village from the next, destructing olive orchards which costs a generation to regrow, economic chances for the West Bank and Gaza currently are very low too. "The whole lot would still be mutually interdependant economically, and would have to have a mutual defence." - hesperus The economies are quite separate. They had grown separate during the mandate period, and now again: the workforce from the occupied territories working in the Israeli economy has been largely replaced in the last ten years by foreign workers. Conversely, Amira Hass is one of the few Israelis working in the occupied territories :-). "Whether you use a positive comparison--Benelux" - DJStahl Benelux was indeed a confederation, based on equals, but a very loose one. It is now largely superseded by the EU, Schengen, etc. Switzerland is a better example - three cantons joining against the Habsburg threat. Most of the other cantons also acceded from free will. "or a negative one--Bantustan" - DJStahl Bantustan is essentially another word for ghetto, but on a larger scale. The South-African bantustans were inarable tracts of lands that were forced into "independence". It was just a tool to maintain the apartheid oppression.

Hollingsworth.....lets move into the 21st century and stop harking back to Biblical and medieval times.,.......its time to move on. The ultra orthodox have nothing of any value to offer.......they should stay home and carry on reading and praying

It's amazing reading this how much opposition Gideon Levy has from people who don't live here, and probably have never visited Israel. That just about proves the justness of his arguments - the only people opposing him are people fed a daily diet of AIPAC propaganda. Anyone who lives here and can see the facts for themselves knows G.Levy is damn right.

The Israeli leftists are intellectual and moral suicide bombers that have lost the same grade of touch to reality than their Palestinian counterparts. Gideon Levy is the prototype of this kind of rotten thinking. His biggest problem is the Israeli right and not those governments who sow and support terror. His fiercest enemies are our haredim and not the Muslim clergy that preaches the destruction of all Israel (even more so the secular left). He suggests TALK as the ultimate solution. And here again: he is ready to talk with Hamasbulla and Fatahtolla besides the Israeli right (since they proved already that you can?t talk with them). He reminds me of the pre-war-yecke who was begging the Nazis to talk until they blew into his head that the only talk they were interested in was the talk about the final solution. Keep on talking Gideon!

Are you suggesting that if Israel carried out a negotiated withdrawal to the 1948 armistice lines, then peace would suddenly break out between Arab and Jew? Dream on, Gideon. The ideas of the Israeli right and left are equally bankrupt, primarily because given the continued implacable opposition to Israel on the Arab street, there is a horrible question mark over the Zionist idea itself, which does not appear to be a practicable proposition in the long run. From the Arab point of view, the only difference between the left and right in Israel is the extent of occupation and dispossession that they are willing to impose on Palestinian Arabs. Continuous improvisation combined with heroic effort got us to where we are today, and will no doubt allow us to survive for quite a while longer. As long as we continue to enjoy unqualified American support and remain orders of magnitude stronger militarily than any combination of state and non-state players in the region. Not a minute longer.

And if the kid is Palestinian and the bully is Israel, and his dad is, say, Iran or Syria? Of course, he could just call on his best friend Hezbollah to give the bully a bloody nose. So, 'might is always right' regardless, is that your message? Yes, we all know Israel's dad is the USA, the biggest, fattest bully of them all. Makes you proud doesn't it?

http://www.therightroadtopeace.com/eng/defaulteng.html 1.What the heck is this guy talking about? The US and UK have won NOTHING in Iraq. 2.Why does he think the US or international community should have to pay to solve the problem? 3.Great solution for everyone? Jews take over ALL of Palestine. Just proves my point that Israel doesn't want "piece".

it's amazing reading this how much support gideon levy has from people who don't live here, and probably have never visited israel. that just about proves the fallaciousness of his arguments - the only people supporting him are people fed a daily diet of hizballa / palestinian propaganda by the likes of the BBC. Anyone who lives here and can see the facts for themselves know he's talking rubbish.

Gideon Levy, I feel the right have lost their right to exist in the form they are now in. People will want to burn their tax money than see it go to support its cruel and inhumane sytem towards the Palestinians. Israel's attack on Lebanon has sent many American tax payers over the edge. Dutch

1) Israel cannot "wipe out" Arab countries and Iran. It cannot kill them all. 2) Despite Ahmadinejad's rhetoric, the goal of most militants is not annihilation of Jewish people, but the Jewish ethnic chauvinist nature of the state. 3) Agreed that status quo is inevitably vicious 4) Israel already has preponderance of nukes; 100's. When the average Arab person is living in misery, they are not worried about being nuked. Hezbollah's WW2-armed 3,000 ment proved their bravery against the most powerful army in the region. The Single Democratic State, ending Jewish Supremacist Apartheid of both Left and Right flavors, is the only option; and the one that people are to afraid to maturely discuss without exaggerations and lies.

Yishai - "The right DOES have answers. You just refuse to listen." Please elaborate. As we have seen, occupation doesn't work. Nor does war. What are the rights answers?

Arabic is a language not a racial/religious classification. Yes there are 22 nations where Arabic is the official language. None require that citizens be biological descendants of an "Arab" people. Many Arab nations have sizable non-Muslim populations. Palestinians ~ 10% Christian As all of the scholarship has revealed, the Palestinians are as much descendants of the Jews who lived here 2000 years ago, as we are. the rest of your commentary about free-will ethnic cleansing, is your own need to feel justified about it. Even Benny Morris was honest about the pogroms against the Palestinians. This is not about 'best ways to go.' This is about balance of power and historical trajectories of demographics, technology, and broad tendencies toward regional integration of capital, markets, labor, media, infrastructure. Regional integration is inevitable; and will be brought about one way or the other. The One State Solution is the only solution which may enable Jews to remain in the

No, you are the one who should have clicked on the link I supplied. The PLO Charter explicitly references 1947, and yes, it does include their descendants. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/cove1.html "Article 6. The Palestinians are those Arab citizens who were living normally in Palestine up to 1947, whether they remained or were expelled. Every child who was born to a Palestinian parent after this date whether in Palestine or outside is a Palestinian."

The only problem is that they are the WRONG answers.

gideon levy is right,the right is bankrupt...how long will the voters put up with this ? will it be another 60 years ? hopefully israel sees it no longer can afford the luxury of continous war to solve all problems... war is no longer an option.....is that a hard pill to swallow? so be it.. best wishes & hope that sanity prevails, n.f.

Nic to know that Chris Lawrence thinks Australia itself is irrelevant politically - I couldn't agree more but our PM likes to preen like a peacock and strut around like he counts for something. Now to Israel - perhaps one of the paranoid masses who live in the US and Germany and everywhere but Israel think this could happen?

Watch a film Obsession, documentary. You will see what deranged hatred meen and how it looks and what its goal. Only documentary. Do it in the mormimg. so you will not loose you sleep.

Anti-Israel and anti-semitic propaganda in Egypt is as bad as in Iran. It is a direct violation of Peace accord between Israel and Egypt. And you should hear Jordan Queen Noor explaining to Americans on Larry King Live, that it is all Israel fault. In very goog English. They both signed treaties, when they assumed that ISrael was much stronger than them and still Israel was stupid enough to give land it got in defensive war. We are really special people. Especially stupid, I mean. Never the side victorious in war returned land to the sade that lost. And that the lost side started aggressive war and got a land as a result of it loss would be difficult to imagine, if Jews, light to the World, did not give example of this stupidity. Now we have Olmert/Peretz/Peres and katyushas and other rockets. How could anybody after seeing any of them once or listen to them once vote for this criminals is above me. What will happen first,Olmert lost his chair or Olmert facitate new Holocaust

This issue is best decided by the Isralis themselves. So all outsiders keep your comment to yourself and stop posting here!! Just for once keep quiet and read the comment.!!

Given the prevailing attitude in Israel, I don't believe it will last my lifetime. I've never seen people so hell-bent on self destruction or so ready to howl-down dissenting views. You want to fight? You think violence will provide a final solution? Be careful for what you wish, it may come true. Perhaps not in the way you would prefer.

Mark has been insanely angry with me ever since I exposed one of his most vicious lies. He ran around the forum for two weeks proclaiming that the Mohammad cartoons that caused ordinarily sane Muslims to riot and firebomb was due to a nefarious Christian plot to make Muslims "look bad", that "right wing Christians" were responsible for the creation of the cartoons, when in fact, they were published in Denmark's largerst circulation secular newspaper: www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/17/AR2006021702499_pf.html "Gina the riotous Shiksa" LOL :)

I hate no one. I despise terrorists of all religions, and those who morally equivocate.

As an outsider, I think Israel has only 4 options: 1) Wipe out the Arab countries and Iran 2) Be wiped out 3) Keep the status quo to perpetuate a vicious wars cycle with Iran/Arab countries 4) Stockpile nuclear arsenal and return all occupied lands for peace Pick your option.

Gee Gina you really rattled Mark Lincoln. I could not find your post that shook him up so much. Whatever it was keep up the good work. Mark has every right to post his anti Israel ranting in this forum But we also have the rebut anything he says to rebut and balance the slate. Gina the riotous Shiksa Keep up the good work.

Actually you are the one that is wrong. The Oslo agreement has repeatedly been called a Trojan Horse by the Arabs. Just a few months after signing the accords Arafat was video-taped at a Mosque in South Africa calling it a trick, no different then what Mohammad did 1500 years ago. The Arabs consider the Oslo agreement to be part of their 1974 piecemeal destruction of the entire State. Don't forget they really never changed their charter, even after that big show put on for President Clinton. All those paragraphs speaking about the destruction of Israel was never formally removed. It was only media spin that claimed things changed. The Oslo agreement did not change anything as far as the Arabs are concerned. And, the Geneva accords is just another form of appeasement. The very little that the Arabs gave in on will not be carried out, just as they lied some many before. Sure, people can insist that it was Israel that didn't do enough. There is a name for this, it is called the Stockholm Syndrome. Perhaps you should read about that condition. The vast majority of Arabs want Israel dead and the same for all the Jews living there. Wake up before it is to late.

First I suggest you recheck that Charter. Yes, the PLO offers citizenship to Jews, IF they lived in Palestine prior to the British mandate. Yes, only Jews born in Palestine before 1918! Now how many Jews can make that claim? And, it DOES NOT include their descendents; unlike Arabs, even those who have left the area. Plus, those lucky Jews will have to live through the pogrom that will likely ensue. Finally, what is so wrong with a Jewish State in their historical land? Jews have over a 3000 years history in this land. And, the Arabs have 22 other States. Where is the justice?

The leftist experiment is coming to an abrupt end. From the failure of resurrecting Arafat from his Tunisian tomb and Barak's ill conceived retreat from Lebanon to evicting Jews in Gaza and planning more evictions. Livni summed up the entire experiment on Charlie Rose last week. When questioned about the efficacy of her negotiations and the prognosis of the war itself, she repeatedly answered over and over and over again, like the well-trained lawyer she is, "It's too early to tell, we have to wait and see Charlie". In other words it's just one big experiment with many political "scientists" playing with the lives of innocent Israelis to see if they are right. But the experiment is over...dead. Iran is without a doubt hell-bent on destroying Israel from within and without. Lack of preparedness or courage will be the termination of the Jewish state, as we know it. The left has to decide if they want to concoct new experiments or join the fight for survival. The wiggle room is gone.

I guess your advice to the "ultra-religious Hebrews after Israel's ancient conquest of the Land would have been: The likes of Joshua, Levi, Caleb and Miriam should be kept out of all political arguments. At least the ultra-Orthodox give the whole New Israel thing at least an apparent look of legitimacy.

I must agree with your assessment of the limited ability to Israel to do anything to bring peace that does not jeopardize the very existence of the state of Israel. That is indeed the crux of the Middle East problem. On the other hand, I don't agree that a "fractured society" and very contentious political process necessarily is a sign of problems for Israel's security. To my mind, the day that Israel is in real trouble and probably doomed, is when Israel has freely operating paramilitary groups, such as a settler militia or militias, for example, that (1) operate outside the control of IDF military command and in opposition to Israel cabinet, and (2) the Israel government, cabinet, and parliment is afraid to take action against these paramiltary groups for fear of starting a civil war. One should never make the mistake of confusing political chaos (acceptable, if a bit messy) with chaos in the military chain of command (disastrous).

A simple explanation on how to deal with evil. There is a bully on the playground of a school picking on a young boy every day. He beats him up at times. The young boy decides, "I know I`ll talk to the bully rationally and see if he will stop." The young boy says, "Mr. Bully, wouldn`t it be better to be friends?" The bully laughs and punches the young boy in the stomach. The next day the young boy thinks, "I know, I`ll give him a candy bar every day." The young boy comes to the bully and gives him a candy bar. The bully says, "thank you! Now give me 3 every day!" Then punches him in the stomach again. The bully is evil. Finally, the young boy tells his father and his father tells the school. The bully`s father takes the boy home and spanks him. The next day, the bully is nice to the young boy, not because he wants to, but because he know that his father will spank him again if he continues. Thus, the lesson in evil. The left wing is the problem, not the right.

It is interesting how many people talk about a one state solution. The fact is that the actions of the left seem to suggest that that was always their plan. Problem is, Why?? Why is it fair that there is 22 Arab States and there cannot be one Jewish State. A State situated in their historic homeland going back over 3000 years!! Jews have a right to this land. More Jews were "forced" out of their countries of origin then all the Arabs that became refugees in 48. Plus, almost all the Arabs became refugees of their own free will, unlike the Jewish refugees. There is justification to transfer these Arabs in exchange for the Jews that were forcibly ejected from their homes. The increase in their numbers should not be used as an excuse. This concept of "transferring" populations is the best way to go. It is still being done in other parts of the world. It is only due to Arab intransigence that the International bodies call it unexceptable. Yet, it is the best solution.

I don't know. But since this double war was a disaster for Israel, maybe the left like you and Uri Avnery et al can get together and stop all the schisms the left is always prone to but come en masse to some REAL solutions. Start a new party, left of Meretz. Work for our view in creative ways because otherwise it's over for Israel and that thought should energize us who think the creation of this state was a good idea, exceedingly poorly executed. ONE LAST CHANCE, that kind of slogan should get people aroused. I just returned from Tel Aviv and I thought, this State isn't going to last, unless. UNLESS you guys who are so smart and know too much figure something out together. That's my hope. I hate going hopeless. And whatever you create it has to be an Israeli not a USA pov. all love Wendy Orange

Actually the Orthodox and even many of the ultra-Orthodox are more represented in the military then there numbers would suggest. Just look at all of those photos of religious Jews praying during the battles. True, they are not seen in the higher levels of leadership, but some feel that there is a "glass ceiling" when it comes to their advancement. Look at what happened to Effi Ethan.

You speak about 78% and 22% solution. However, you do not define which 78:22. You think that the Arabs want the so called 22% made up of Gaza and the West Bank? No, the Arabs have their own interpretation of these figures. If you go back to the 1922 division of Palestine you will see that the Arabs received 78% of the land (The land made up of what is to the west of the Jordan River). And, the Jews were to get 22%, the remaining land east of the river. The British forcefully removed all Jews living in the "Arab" section, but failed to transfer the Arabs to their area. Instead the 22% of Palestine that was to be for the Jews was left to fester. Considering what developed some people feel that the British did this to prevent the establishment of a Jewish State. However, what is more important is that the 22% that the Arabs speak of is the full area east of the Jordan River (ALL of Israel). And, not what many like to think that the Arabs mean.

"They should be neutralized and defeated decisively." (peter) I take it you know a better way than what has been tried till today. So why are you keeping it to yourself? Why don't you write to Prime Minister of Israel, Jerusalem, and let him know your suggestions on how to defeat them decisively. But please, don't wait too long, time is pressing. In ten/twelve years, the Palestinians will start to be a majority between the sea and the river. We shall see, then, who will not make any concession to whom.

Ironically, the entire trajectory of the history since 1967 has guaranteed that there cannot be separation of the two peoples. Control over water - which is seldom discussed here, but is essential - via Golan Heights and the Israeli controlled West Bank aquifers, has made it so that the West Bank is completely dependent upon the desalination pipeline controlled by Israel. The continued growth of the settlements was consciously done to establish "facts on the ground" that would preclude their removal, and which would bisect so many Palestinian towns and roads, that they would feel pressured to leave. But only the first aspect of that dynamic has happened; the Palestinians will not be pushed out of their land as their relatives were. Thus we are left with a situation where a separate state is not worth fighting for Palestinians. The two-state option was a fake plan foisted on the Palestinians via Arafat, an Israeli puppet. The only future worth fighting for is a non-ethnic democracy

You're a fool, and the worst kind at that. Like you don't know Israel has tried so many times to live in peace with its neighbors. Cut the crap. DO u think for a moment A Jew wold blow himself up to kill Palestinians? Why don't you condemn those who brainwash children to kill themselves. This is idolatry, worst kind. Islam has proven itself to be a fraud as a religion. There is one woman, who recently has stood up and asked the important questions: What can Islam contribute to society? Why are Jews not ransacking Mosques, and blowing themselves up in Germany? Why have Jews changed the landscape of Israel while the Arabs can't seem to turn their countries around? Why have Jews contributed so much after the Holocaust while Muslims still scream and murder for a small piece of land, as if it is the only purpose of life? Why aren't Buddhists destroying Mosques, as muslims did to the Buddha statues? If you wish to ignore the hate, then you too will suffer from it's fate.

The Original PLO Charter was constructed to be a mirror to the ANC Charter: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/cove1.html Article 6. The Palestinians are those Arab citizens who were living normally in Palestine up to 1947, whether they remained or were expelled. Every child who was born to a Palestinian parent after this date whether in Palestine or outside is a Palestinian. Article 7. Jews of Palestinian origin are considered Palestinians if they are willing to live peacefully and loyally in Palestine. I never learned this until I looked it up in the college library after Sabra and Shatila shattered my Zionist beliefs. I had been raised that "the Palestinians" wanted to "drive us into the sea." The overwhelming message has always been that they are opposed to their being an ethnically Jewish state, with special privileges for Jews. Palestinian = Muslims, Christians AND Jews I am fine with being a Jewish Palestinian.

IS this guy blind or is he just stupid. Oslo was not a product of the Right. Barak was not a product of the right. If anything, the things that have brought Israel misery is trying it the Left's way. When Israel conquered J'lem in 67, it was not the Right that begged the Arabs to return. It was Dayan and his foolish toady ways. He was a loser as a General, as was Rabin, for they won the battle but lost the war. Finally, what makes you beleive there is a solution? The premise of the article is that something has to work. But educating Muslims and relinquishing land might not bring peace. Let's say it does for 10 or 20 years. Once the fundamentalists take over, they will tear up the treaty. Just like Hamas did, so what did u get. We have no way of controlling the radicalization of Islam, that has nothing to do with Israel and is bred in Saudi Arabia etc. Religion is a powerful thing, the antedote is other religion. Try being Jewish for once. Have u tried that yet?! IDIOT!

Wrong you are. In order to implement the two-state solution, there is no need at all to wait for the Palestinians' acceptance of Israel's right to exist. Enough is their acceptance of Israel's existence, which is something completely different. This, they have already done by signing the Oslo Accords. The present conflict is not about Israel's existence, it is about its definitive borders. You are wrong again to say the Left has no answer either. Its has one, and it is called the Geneva Accord. See http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=349832&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

your doctrinaire condemnations of 'the right', broadly equating them with unrelated parties and events in the past, without reference to the specific circumstances facing israel today, commend you to the legacy of the apologists for the gulag and worse terrors who clung to uncle joe against all the available evidence - and some think, because of the evidence - of his bestiality. you paint yourself with the reverse of your broad brush.

I think there is no possibility of a single state solution either. As for you Gina, you are a wingnut. A person so deranged in your hatred for all Arabs, all Muslims and anyone who is not a right wing psychopath that you are beyond reasoning with.

Hesperus, You make a good point. Confederation, in some form, certainly seems like a potential solution in the long term. I'm all for it being the objective. The obstacles, however, come from among both Jews and Arabs or Palestinians. In the case of Jews, there is a fear of demographics, the idea (unwarranted IMO) that open borders between Jewish and Palestinian states would lead to Jews disappearing or Israel being voted out of existance. In the case of Palestinians, they would have to move beyond the concept of panarabism, wherein the Palestinian state would identify first and foremost with the surrounding Arab states. In a confederation scenario, not only would Palestinians have to trust Israelis to conduct much of their defense, but they would need to identify with Israel above Arab countries. Perhaps this could be achieved by including Jordan in the confederation.

Nice recap. You forgot that 31 countries prevent their citizens from visiting Isreal.

Hey Gideon Levy...the Left just tried it's plan and look what happened. You complain about the Right over Israels history. Was not '48, 67 and 73 victories? There would not have been 60 years history perhaps if the Leftist appeasers had their way. Why dont you quit grumbling and trust Jehovah G-d to help you? Or has the Left no regard for the Almighty and past history with Israel. Peace through strength my friend or will you still negotiate with insane terrorists from hell? Vive Yeshua.

Patrick if you are such a patriot/Zionist and have such strong feelings, why dont you come and live in Israel and share our struggle ! Should I simply say "Inchallah" ?

The ultra-religious Jews should be kept out ofa ll political arguments. They should not be allowed to express their opinions as they have never really contributed anything to the State of Israel other than a lot of tsorress ! Get back to your books and let the politicians deal with the poitics.

ISRAEL AND JERUSALEM FACTS 1. ISRAEL BECAME A STATE IN 1312 B.C., TWO MILLENNIA BEFORE ISLAM; 2. ARAB REFUGEES FROM ISRAEL BEGAN CALLING THEMSELVES "PALESTINIANS" IN 1967, TWO DECADES AFTER (MODERN) ISRAELI STATEHOOD; 3. AFTER CONQUERING THE LAND IN 1272 B.C., JEWS RULED IT FOR A THOUSAND YEARS AND MAINTAINED A CONTINUOUS PRESENCE THERE FOR 3,300 YEARS; 4. THE ONLY ARAB RULE FOLLOWING CONQUEST IN 633 B.C. LASTED JUST 22 YEARS; 5. FOR OVER 3,300 YEARS, JERUSALEM WAS THE J EWISH CAPITAL. IT WAS NEVER THE CAPITAL OF ANY ARAB OR MUSLIM ENTITY. EVEN UNDER JORDANIAN RULE, (EAST) JERUSALEM WAS NOT MADE THE CAPITAL, AND NO ARAB LEADER CAME TO VISIT IT; 6. JERUSALEM IS MENTIONED OVER 700 TIMES IN THE BIBLE, BUT NOT ONCE IS IT MENTIONED IN THE QUR'AN; 7. KING DAVID FOUNDED JERUSALEM ; MOHAMMED NEVER SET FOOT IN IT; 8. JEWS PRAY FACING JERUSALEM ; MUSLIMS FACE MECCA . IF THEY ARE BETWEEN THE TWO CITIES , MUSLIMS PRAY FACING MECCA , WITH THEIR BACKS TO JERUSALEM ; 9. IN 1948, ARAB LEADERS URGED THEIR PEOPLE TO LEAVE, PROMISING TO CLEANSE THE LAND OF JEWISH PRESENCE. 68% OF THEM FLED WITHOUT EVER SETTING EYES ON AN ISRAELI SOLDIER; 10. VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE JEWISH POPULATION OF MUSLIM COUNTRIES HAD TO FLEE AS THE RESULT OF VIOLENCE AND POGROMS; 11. SOME 630,000 ARABS LEFT ISRAEL IN 1948, WHILE CLOSE TO A MILLION JEWS WERE FORCED TO LEAVE THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES; 12. IN SPITE OF THE VAST TERRITORIES AT THEIR DISPOSAL, ARAB REFUGESS WERE DELIBERATELY PREVENTED FROM ASSIMILATING INTO THEIR HOST COUNTRIES. OF 100 MILLION REFUGEES FOLLOWING WORLD WAR 2, THEY ARE THE ONLY GROUP TO HAVE NEVER INTEGRATED WITH THEIR CO- RELIGIONISTS. MOST OF THE JEWISH REFUGEES FROM EUROPE AND ARAB LANDS WERE SETTLED IN ISRAEL , A COUNTRY NO LARGER THAN NEW JERSEY ; 13. THERE ARE 22 MUSLIM COUNTRIES, NOT COUNTING PALESTINE . THERE IS ONLY ONE JEWISH STATE. ARABS STARTED ALL FIVE WARS AGAINST ISRAEL , AND LOST EVERY ONE OF THEM; 14. FATAH AND HAMAS CONSTITUTIONS STILL CALL FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL . ISRAEL CEDED MOST OF THE WEST BANK AND ALL OF GAZA TO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, AND EVEN PROVIDED IT WITH ARMS; 15. DURING THE JORDANIAN OCCUPATION, JEWISH HOLY SITES WERE VANDALIZED AND WERE OFF LIMITS TO JEWS. UNDER ISRAELI RULE, ALL MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN HOLY SITES ARE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL FAITHS; 16. OUT OF 175 UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS UP TO 1990, 97 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL ; OUT OF 690 GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTIONS, 429 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL ; 18. THE U.N. WAS SILENT WHEN THE JORDANIANS DESTROYED 58 SYNAGOGUES IN THE OLD CITY OF JERUSALEM . IT REMAINED SILENT WHILE JORDAN SYSTEMATICALLY DESECRATED THE ANCIENT JEWISH CEMETERY ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, AND IT REMAINED SILENT WHEN JORDAN ENFORCED APARTHEID LAWS PREVENTING JEWS FROM ACCESSING THE TEMPLE MOUNT AND WESTERN WALL.

In response to Marilyn's "mind numbing stupidity" words, I can only say it is a relief that she is Australian as they are so far removed form reality and are generally politically challenged that their opinions carry no weight almost anywhere on earth.

the right's position in a nutshell is that miltary action is the only way to interract with the arabs, and once the arabs have been brought down to their knees and acccepted the military and racial superiority of the isralis, minimal territorial concessions might be considered, maybe. it was during likud governments that both hamas and hezbollah were created, due to the incredibly moronic decision to support the islamic elements in order to undermine the plo in the case of hamas, and the senseless, criminal invasion of lebanon in 82. the right has answers alright, all of them wrong and suicidal.

"Your kind"..."the definition of ignorance, blind hatred, and bigotry"..."Nazism" "Moderates" and "freethinkers" like you have always had your reasons to hate clear-eyed Jews like me - as well as a monopoly on guns and ovens. But this time it's different. As soon we as we get around to your Beirut neighborhood, you're the one who will feel the flames. Chazak!

Occupied territories in the mind of Israel's enemies encompasses all of Israel. A solution would be lovely, but under the circumstances one does well just to survive. Auschwitz, anyone?

I just want to thank Mr. Levy for his reason and Haaretz for publishing it. The world needs more sanity like this article. This article should be made into one of Israels famous leaflets that they dropped over Lebanon. This time drop the leaflets over Israel. Its never too late for reason-try peace Israel (and america) you might just like it. I As an american i look constantly on the web for articles that suggest peace can be accomplished through means other than at the end of a gun. Peace is so hard to find in a world gone mad.

The hardest thing in the world is to stop the cycle of violence. The enemy always looks hateful and impossible to deal with. The fable of the sun and wind applies here. The sun and wind debated who could get the man to take off his coat. The wind blew harder and harder and failed; the sun succeeded. Israel has become good neighbors with Egypt and Jordan; only Palestinians, Syria and Lebanon to go. The rest will leave you alone. Great article Gideon!

Read the charters of Iran, Syria, Hizbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah. Gideon since you hate Israel so much. Why dont you move to Iran or one of the Arab countries and criticize their leaders. See how long you have to live.

As has been on offer. Israel doesn't know a fair peace deal when it sees one. A binational state with equal rights for all would also be a fair settlement. You can't have the settlers and peace, and if there's no peace, this war is a harbinger of far worse bloodshed to come. This war badly hurt everyone involved but Hezbollah, whose soldiers don't mind dying.

'some of us are out here protecting the homeland..' FROM chic and fashionable paris france?

The looniness I don't mind, but the outright lies are like sandpaper.

More than 900 Libanes dead,mostly civilians,almost all Lebanon destroyed.The World public are in wild rage about your lack of humanity toward the Lebanes'civilians,of which you will take decades even one generation to erase the image of Israel as a bloody barbarical country which only loss to the German of Hitler on cruelty.For your own good,please,try another approach,negotiate,share and return the lands, look at your own history.Moshe Dayan had succeded to make an everlasting peace with the Egyptian by negotiation,by returning Mount Sinai and because he knew and respected the Arabs.Where had gone the smartness and the skill to diplomacy of your people?War only lead to more hate and radicalism,it will never ever bring peace and stability.

Last time I checked Israel is more than willing to make peace with any one who wants to sit down at the table with them You really should direct that argument to the Arabs...they start shit all the time. If the day comes where nukes, bio or any other stuff comes flying across, feel sorry for the nation that Lobs it...they will seal their fate and cease to exist. God forbid the foolish country that allows that to happen because Israel/America would finish them off for good. end of story...Sleep well in houston...some of us are out here protecting the homeland..

I entirely agree: Gideon the Levite you do not belong here , the Land of Israel,the Homeland of the Jewish people. why don't you get the hell out of Eretz Yisroel and go to your Masters in Teheran & Damascus ? you are a disgrace !

Hmmm that Hizbollah body count is very, very, high....The fact that Hizbollah is trying to hide that should tell even the dumbest who got who's ass kicked. 1. Israel is 15 miles deep inside Lebanon. 2. Hizbollah lost alot of the weaponary and people. 3. nasrallah begged for cease fire from the onset. 4. Hizbollah will be disarmed, if not they will be destroyed. 5. Iran and syria could only look on and PRAY to allah that the cease fire would go into effect. 6. Israel and Lebanon will likely make peace after dust settles. 7. Iran will get pounded by the USA, its just a matter of when. We got them red handed on so much now..another viper nest to clean out... All in all I would say that is a win for all.

Cold war like between the USSR and the US based on deterrance untill democracy takes hold in the arab world. At least, no one gets killed. You should listen to him instead of criticizing him all the time

If I were an Israeli strategist/planner, my advice to Mr. Olmert would be to make peace with the Arabs NOW. Give the Arabs their rights and with a smile. Live and let live; in peace! You will be amazed how many Arabs yearn for the same peace that everyone else is yearning for. IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME before Hezbollah/Hamas/or any XYZ oraganization start lobbing those missiles into Israel ladden with biological/nuclear heads. When that happens, then may God help us all. IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME!

another example of the ability of the human mind to substitute intricate evasions for the plain truth. wake up gideon. they hate you and want you gone or dead. accept that and then ask what the right has to offer. how about survival? or would you rather give up survival for the sake of 'long term solutions'.

Gideon, do not betray your name. Israel's "300" can rip the enemy if God be with you! The "right" IS right. How to tell? Just look at your enemies. They do not want peace. It is not the "right" who wants you in a "path to an abyss," it is Iran, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah! The Oslo Accords? Just a bad joke. But don't laugh. Your "good" neighbors have more in store for you. The shortfall by IDF facing anti-tank missiles, etc., should tell you that this was a dry run. The NEXT one is a "test" you cannot fail. Take your political nonsense and stuff it. Get ready for what's coming. I sure hope you can fire your weapon (a clue, Gideon--it's not a keyboard).

How do you figure that. The all mighty Israeli army did not defeat Hizbollah. They did not accomplish their objectives. I figure they have further alienated the neighbours they have to live with, and have lost many world supporters. The extremist Jihad movements are celebrating the Invatision of Lebanon by Israel. The best recruiting tool since the Invasion of Iraq. way to go Israel

If your last statement isn't the definition of ignorance, blind hatred, and bigotry -same ailments that afflicted Nazism- it sure comes damn close. Your kind excels at proving to moderate hopefuls everywhere that the road to peace, if there ever will be one, is indeed not going to be easy.

Josh, Israel should not have had settlements in Gaza or the West Bank. The people that are there are just selfish. The orthodox say all that land belongs to the Jews. That is just as fruity as the ranting of the fundamentalist Islamofacists that want the world to live by sharia law. Israel is a great country but the blemish of the settlements provides groups like Hamas credibility where they should have none. It was a mistake to be there. Even Sharon of all people acknowledged that. You’ve made a mistake and are starting to fix it. Don’t waffle.

Anyone hear about this? its going to get real interesting...So much for the all the BS that you Israel/American haters have been shoveling. Six Iranian ILDT type 4-cargo planes and a Syrian aircraft were forced to land at the southeast Turkish military airport last Thursday after US spy satellites spotted they were loaded with missiles, missile launchers and eight boxes of Chinese made C-802 missiles, dubbed by Iran ?Nur.? www.debka.com Now lets see if teh Liberal media reports it....

Thank GOD, our government listens to its American Citizens and NOT you. Was the ground cold when you crawled out this morning. There was a saying in a movie that says it well. "On my Command, Unlesh hell" America will support Israel, because it is the right thing to do. Lets not forget. HIZBOLLAH started this...for the second time, Isreal certainly handed them their collective backsides!

gideon is not thinking out of the box. the real solution is perhaps neither what the current right or left are proposing. nor the us. the answer may need to be radical but just. 1) study jewish history and the torah on this topic 2) then speak the truth that "israel belongs to jews" 3)the government must be governed only by jews and create a constitution based on the torah system. this will guarantee a jewish state regardless of the arab/jewish population ratio. 4) forigners and arabs who are israeli citizens would qualify for full equal "civil" rights but not "governing" rights. perhaps only municipal government which is only responsible for civil rights and infrastructure. but not national security and identity laws. 5)a plo state part in gaze and part in west bank will never work. push an international agenda to annex gaza and israel,jordan,syria, and lebanon will each give a piece of land for the palestenians. 6) beat the hell out of anyone that threatens israel

Give it up Gina, .its not worth it. No logic will convince Mark that Israel is anything but a pariah to the world. Israel= Evil. Islamofacists= good

Gideon Levy blames the right for the left's failed Oslo and defeatist atitudes. With an earlier stronger response to Palestinian Terrorism in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon we would not be in this situation. The right was right and needs to be strong now. Barak's fleeing Lebanon costs us many lives today and Olmert's quitting Lebanon today could cost us, G-D forbid, more in the future.

"Peace in our time". Neville Chamberlain _Munich 1939 Need I say more?

and exactly in which way do you envision "control"? paying ransoms to iran? read the torah that you perverted and explain the laws involving a jewish military even before we went into the land. and don't tell me about the moshiach belief as being some magical fairy. read the rambam laws of kings.

100% on target HOWEVER, who in israeli politics maintains this vision that you call "right". current rightist unfortunately to not yet acknowledge your agenda. just selfish politics.

AMASING TO KNOW, THAT THE PARTY WHICH HAS DOEN ,ALL THIS IS THE LEFT.GIDEON ;;IS A GREAT WRITER.HE SHOULD KNOW ALSO THAT, THE MOST DANGEROUS INSTINCT IN HUMANBEING PSYCHI IS ;;FEAR AND REVENGE;; AND THAT IS WHAT THIS UNFORTUNATE WAR HAS PRODUCED.MORE WARS ,AND MORE KILLING.I FEEL SO SORRY FOR THE LEFT .BECOUSE THEY REALLY DID NOT UPHOLD THEIR MORALS AND IDEAS,FOR SO LONG TIME ,AND AS EDWARD SAID SAID ,[UNTIL MORE AND MORE ISRAELIS BELEIVE THAT THEY CANNOT BOMB PALESTENIANS INTO SUBMISSION THEIER IS A CHANCE FOR PEACE ,] SO MY RESPECTED LEFT THINKER THIS IS JUST THE BIGGINING .THANK YOU HAARETZ FOR GIVING US THIS FAIR AND HONEST ARTICLE.

"What the right has to offer ? Mark Lincoln. The short answer in more than one fold: 1-What the Left has offered in their domination of Israeli politics for more than two decads ? History that didn't make a worthy history. 2-I am not defending the Right. But for the sake of history; wasn't the Right who made peace with Egypt,Jordan, .. 3-Your example of Italy and Germany in 1920/30 doesn't wash here. In both countries it was for egression purposes the result of economic collapses after the way the WW1 ended up etc.. Not typical examples for the Right. May I add in their own type of Left(the then darling of the Left)Russia proved not to be a shining example). 3- The 'Left-Right' politics in Israel is a recipe for paralysis. Kadima is a living example. If you wish, Read my posting 'Avoid making History'. Akram Zekaria

Only Khalid speaks about my ?? "Yeddish Khazari". Once again, Khalid, I am neither Jewish nor Israeli. Israel will never allow millions of hostile Arabs into her borders, all who celebrate when her children are murdered.

You write, "The sane right still rejects transfer...." It is cowardly to dismiss an argument by personalizing it. If transfer is an unsatisfactory argument, please make the case against it. Demonizing its adherents (who, according to polls even before the recent war, comprised the majority of all Israelis) is not an answer. The fact is that most Palestinian arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza are "refugees" according to UNRWA's definition. Accordingly, they are not in their permanent home. Since they are not in their permanent home, and they are not going to be resettled where they claim to have lived prior to 1948, why do they have to be settled west of the Jordan River? Why can't they be settled in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq or elsewhere? It is incorrect to claim, as you do, that this argument is not accepted by the "sane left". You can put your head in the sand and refuse to engage this argument, but isn't that how the Left lost the Hezbollah war?

I doubt it. More likely is that our neocons, AIPAC, and the AEI, incorrectly, think that they have been responsive to Israel's interests. For a tribe that has prided itself on producing thinkers/humanists, something has gone wrong here.

The country has been shifting rightwards for the past 30 years. We are now looking at ostensibly normal people who consider transfer a reasonable option and at ostensibly left-wing people who were convinced that this war, at its outset, was one for the country's very existence. Those of us who see a Jewish State integrated into the Middle East as the only long term option Israel can hope for have no sane party to turn to. Glibly put the right is wrong and there's no left left.

You must be joking DC. Would you would like me to make similar selections from the Bible?

Political labeling is a western invention of words that leads to hopeless banality and misuse of finding a proper answer. Nobody won. But, the conflict provides an opportunity to a solution. Note we are no longign taking about survial, an issue which faced Israel in the conflict, but now who is right and wrong (a play on words to some) Olmert may be Israel's best answer at this time because he represnts a middle consesus. The military needs better higher leadership and training-Olmer is already listening to the returning resevists who can speak out as part of the civilian society.

Look what they left has brought to our land more terrorism! Failure after Faile! started in Tunsia! with allowing AraRAT to come back! and then it began to snow ball but the sadest part of all we followed blindly AMERICA and what served their intrests! Do we really need their money? the corrupt ones will say yes! Wake-up! The Arabs want us gone bottom line face the reality! You can't spin it, what would of happened in 1948 if they didn't attcak us!

What are you talking about? Did not Arab league say (peace and recognition of Israel in return for return of all the occupied land) but it seems that most Isrealis are deaf to that message of peace. It is hard to imagine the stupidity of peaple thinking that they can live for ever amongst neightbours that hate them. One day they will have to move or make firends with their neightbours. Israel should be the one to start the peace talks, because it is your survival at stake not arabs.

All you say is correct, and one point you do not mension is understandible, that it may be already too late for Israel to find pieceful future with its nabours after so many years of aggretion and ruthless treatment towards them.

A state for all-observe iraq shia and sunni in their state for all.in one hundred years theoretically but judaism in its many forms will have to organize security immigration and humanism.

if you are not to be persuaded by "such a well researched reply", how about, that "all muslims are not terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims". jews lived in england for centuries, have you ever heard about their terrorism(only about english terrorism against jews), now muslims moved to england, are you not afraid to be blown to pieces in bus or underground.

Once again - what's the real alternative to "transfer" or 67 borders (with modifications). Where would another Likud led Govt lead? What would be the long term game plan SERIOUS answers only, no ranting please. I'm genuinely interested to hear how the Israeli right sees things panning out

Time, demographics, world opinion, Islamic radicals, civic softness, are all working against Israel. It is only a matter of time before Israel falls under the ineveitable tide. Israel really is its own worst enemey. Israel has now demanded of itself that it be 100% at all times. Israel has been seduced by its own belif that they are unbeatable. While Israel is fooling itself Iran Syria and HZB are training. Cut a deal with the Palestians and make life easier for Israel and its citizens. This current course of action is arrogant and dangerous. If Israel continues down the same path she is done.

Wow, Gideon, we thought you'd never ask! It's time for Jews to stop fighting being Jews and get good at it. It's time we relied on 3500 years of accumulated wisdom, found in the Torah and the Talmud. It's time we stopped expelling our patriots and started expelling our killers. Vote Manhigut Yehudit in the Likud and get the vision back.

i watched in horror last year as i saw my brothers and sisters being dragged out of their homes by israeli soldiers in the land of israel. this was the most horrifying, reprehensible, dispicable act on the darkest side of mankind. this terrible tragedy of human suffering upon jews gave me flash backs of kristlenacht 1939 in nazi germany when jews were being forced from their homes and businesses. it was so depolrable and disgusting that all jews, left, right were disgraced by it. this must never happen again whther the party is "kadima", "labor", "likud" or whatever. the israeli hellenist government can play politics as usual all they like. they can apease islamic terror, apease the west with any measure, but ethnic cleansing of jews will not be tolerated ever again. if the israeli government wants to "pull out" let them pull out, but leave the residents alone. they dont need the IDF's "protection." let the residents of israel fend for themself. they will do fine.

Yes, it would be nice if there was an answer that would allow Israel to solve all of its problems, avoid the demographic issues, etc. -- a real peace deal would be so, so sweet... hence the attraction of the left to Israeli voters. Problem is that it isn't working. We are increasingly confronting an implacable foe, Islamic fundamentalist fascism, that sees and uses concessions as propaganda fodder and to advance their military conquests. For now, we may just need to hunker down until this paroxysm of violence burns itself out, as is inevitable with radical fundamentalist movements. This means projecting military strength and maintaining detente or deterrence with our nuclear capabilities as necessary. We can't force them to abandon the religious imperative to possess all of Dar Al-Islam; Western civilization, or time itself, will moderate them. We need to sit this out for now. A time for peace will come one day, but we can't expose our jugular just yet.

Gideon Levy is a dangerous demagogue. What he is trying to sell to the confused public is that because we failed to win this time, we cannot win at all, so to appease the enemy we must try "peace" . What he conveniently forgets is that in the Middle East (and in most places elsewhere) only the strong is respected, afraid of, and therefore has a chance of survival. There is no other way for Israel to survive than to be stronger than its enemies and, if necessary to prove it (not in a way we did it this time). Therefore, the right is right in this issue, and the left is wrong. Those of you who want to check the "demographic argument": read the last issue of the "Azure" magazine, where this issue is considered on a professional level.

"China has never had real problem with the Muslim world..." Not many points of contact. Islam has not made many inroads in China, even compared with Christianity. Most Chinese Muslims are in the northwestern province of Xinjiang (Sinkiang), where they complain of cultural oppression, as the Tibetans do. Most Chinese seem relatively at peace with their version of atheistic Marxism.

http://www.conceptwizard.com/info.html Have a look at the above website especially the presentation about Anti Semetism.

Israel, your choice is simple: Vanquish your foes via total war an impose your will upon your enemies or leave the region and come back to New York. The Arabs have no intention of living side by side with you (regardless of the crack induced hallucinations of Gideon Levy may lead him to mumble) Your choice is victory by violence and imposition of your will or leave.

Great, talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy. First the left creates Oslo. They resurrect the PLO/Arafat. They offer concessions and appeasement. They ignore numerous statements made by Arafat and others calling their signing of the Oslo agreement a Trojan horse. They ignore the attacks on Israeli civilians perpetrated by Arab suicide bombers. They say that the lack of success was due to not giving enough. And, then they say, "What can the right offer?" After the mess you fellows put us in just slowing the descent and holding steady is a major improvement. Following the left point of view will only lead to more problems. Just look at how the current government (mis)handled the fighting in Lebanon. Even many left wing people found their actions unacceptable.

isn't the internet a true miracle? a french muslim supremacist and a german jew that loves french arabs especially ("on se la met, on se la met...") have a talk...allons-y, on va s'amuser: 1. china has no problem with muslims cuz muslims dont mess around with them and chinese need the oil. china indeed competes with the US and doesnt want to get spied out etc., on the other hand, who are they doing business with? US. where do plenty chinese live? US. do they feel ok about it? pretty much. china is neutral and solely interested in money. they will not accept your "muslim superpower" cuz its shitty for business 2. turkey and iran against IL? sometimes you scare me and i think damn, these muslims become more clever nowadays, but no need to: kemal attaturk called the prophet mohammed "a treacherous bedouin" and allthough turks dont like USA(no one does, not fashion right now), shia superpower they really dont need, nor do they need jihad, keeps them from getting their new BMW

AND TWAS' SUFFICIENT.WHERE DO WE GO?WHAT DID YOU MEAN?AND WHO THE HELL CARES ABOUT YOUR CONCERN ANYWAY. YOU SHOULD CARE? THINK NOT!!! GET ANOTHERT JOB YOU WILL NEED IT.BRUSH UP YOUR FRENCH TOO,AND READINESS TO MEET MR.CHIRAC THE COWARD.THAT IS IF HE CONDESCENDS TO GRANT YOU AN INTERVIEW? DOUBTFUL. I HAD HEARD YOU HAIL FROM SOUTH AMERICA(ARGENTINA WAS IT?) SO NO NEED TO REFRESH YOUR SPANISH IN ORDER TO VISIT ZAPATERO,WHO RESORTED TO APPEASEMEMT,THE COWARD! BUT,I DIGRESS.THE LESS I SEE YOU HERE THE BETER.IT ALSO APPLIES TO YOUR CHUM AMIRA THE RED NOSED DEER.OH WELL,IT TAKES ALL SORTS.YOURS I CAN DO WITHOUT...

Only the right in Israel understand the nature of the enemy and that the world will always appose Jewish power. Jewish nationalism will serve europe and the rest of the world by create that will fight the islamo-fascists

Thanks for the kind response, DC. Believe me, I'm no extremist crazy guy, was a big supporter of the Oslo process and of supporting moderate Arab states, etc, etc, but when we step back - or, "observe from a mountain", as M. Aurelius might say, - I'm convinced we're seeing something distastrous happen in the world, seeing the West essentially wuss-ify a la pre-WWIIand let it happen, with inevitably horrible consequences for our futures. I'm dismayed that even my "moderate" muslim friends at Harvard Law and elsewhere are terror sympathizers and Jew-haters with an utterly upside-down education in basic history, leaders of UN-member nations (and I don't just mean Iran and the gang) can get away with unacceptable statements and actions with impunity, and the West is afraid to flex its collective muscle at those who stand to threated us. Whether you're liberal or conservative otherwise, how can you fail to stand up to this? Is suicide our responsibility. I say no.

Albert, I don't know about India, but China has never had real problem with the Muslim world and is very suspicious in its relation with the West and mainly with the US. So between the US and Iran they would probably support Iran. Regarding Turkey, I agree totally with you however the case of Turkey is a "defeat" for the EU whatever is the issue. If they integrate the EU 20% of the population would become Muslim, if they refuse them....they will form an axis with Iran creating the core of the future IU (Islamic Union) with other countries. Politically and militarily they will be far quicker than the EU to unite. Best wishes.

Hi there! is this all you can contribute to the debate? selected quotes from the Koran? What, are we meant to be persuaded by such a well researched reply that muslims are subhuman beasts? or is this just a well thoughtout venting of one's anger? because if you are just angry, then I'll be quiet...wouldn't want to be bombed into submission...... take care.

All the leftist ideology the Israeli public has been spoon-fed for the past 20 years has just gotten blasted to dust by the Hizbollah and the Hamas. We've evacuated South Lebanon, given up Gaza and for WHAT? More murder, more terror? There is no dialog with evil. The Israeli Left is playing a broken John Lennon album while the storm rages and grows stronger. You blamed the settlers and it turns out that they aren't the problem. But the Left has demoralized our youth and left us weak and unprepared. NO MORE.

Quite correct. Of course, regarding Ishmael Scripture says that his hand will be raised against every man, and the hand of every man against him -- history seems to bear that out. Islam, as many Muslims interpret it today, is a religion of military aggression. Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik, zt"l, dislike the special emphasis on Ps. 23. As his student Rabbi Norman Lamm said (in extreme paraphrase): Life is struggle; get used to it. Anton Chekhov, not to equate, said much the same. After the defeat of Sisera in the Book of Judges, "the land was at peace for 40 years." Not forever, as some might hope for. Just 40 years. As Jefferson may have said, the tree of Liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants alike.

Hello! It seems to me that Levy is talking commonsense. The Israeli right are unable to go beyond name-calling. Their approach seems to be: the Arabs are fascists - we don't talk to fascists; the arabs are terrorists; we don't talk to terrorists; the arbs are beasts; we don't talk to beasts. Guess what? Jews made a choice to relocate to the the British mandate of Palestine; Arabs (mostly) lived there. Jews won the land, but given that Arabs have not disappeared as if by magic, who do you want to talk to? The reasonable and polite Swedes? The alternative to talking is continuing to do what the Israelis are doing, eternally warring, and in doing so only succeeding in stalking up such a level of hostility in the neighbouring arab world that Israel will at best continue to exist as as a slightly enlarged (thanks to ethnic cleansing) glorified shtetl. Is Israeli collective psyche so damaged by centuries of victimhood (at the hands of Europeans)that is cannot see beyond the shtetl?

Demographics show that the Left breeds least. Thus 1) they will matter less in the future, and 2) they are not quite stakeholders in the future in the same way. One prof said that there are only a few ways to reduce population (without violence): individual wealth, social security, and TV were the most effective. But while these worked in many countries, they may not overcome every culture's inclination to breed. Of course, if the Left were to breed, they would be going a long way toward solving the demographic problem they perceive. Therefore, spitefully, they don't want to. The realization of the well-off that they can't afford to raise their kids as comfortably as they'd been raised is another impediment; the more committed don't let this stop them. Regrettably, few effective voices on the religious left, analogous to the Catholic "liberation theologians," to inspire Israelis on the left. Yshayahu Leibovitz? gone, and also wrong on a lot. Burg? Melchior?

All of Levy's anylysis of the situation convinced me that Israel must seek a long term security policy based on a strong military, zero tolerance for terrorism, and its state supporters, and a new look at the relationship between jewish security and arab rights(with the emphasis on jewish security).Regardless of what borders are drawn the arabs will outnumber the jews in the area). Jews have few rights in muslim countries. All the recent battles have been restrained by leftist policies. The battle is not undertook with surprise and massive force because of fear of endangering lebanese civilians(yet killing Israelis). The enemy is warned with leaflets. Leftist consideration of anti-semitic world opinions created acceptance of a ridiculous cease fire agreement doomed to failure. Battle is ended early because of leftist faith in UN and diplomacy. The political solution must be a solution to the desired goals and not an end in themselves.

"Pan Arabism,which is a pure Sunni Moslim movement went into a black hole" You guys make me sick because of your ignorance. Please stop posting in a high level newspaper like Haaretz. It deserves people with higher level. Where have you seen that the panarabism was a pure Sunni Moslim movement. The leader of panarbism was undoubtedly Gamal Abdel Nasser. He is the man who order in 1949 the assasination of Hassan ElBanna the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood (the Hamas come from). The Brotherhood was and is indeed a pure Sunni Moslem movement. Conversely the panarabism was the plan launched by the West to bring into the weak Muslim world the notion of nationalism which does not exist in Islam but which would permanently scattered the Muslim world. Nice try but they failed as you cleverly noticed. You should learn before teaching.

After briefly admitting, that all "left"/"piece" moves made by Israeli goverment were total disaster, autor drawns into typical gibberish by saying that Right have no solution. However, even based on his article, right do have all solutions (that needs to be executed anyway - right or left) 1) Army is soften by policing territories - ok - so make army work and run exercises as real as possible 2) Air Force/Tanks is soften by lack of experience - ok, so do the same - execrice 3) Playing "peace bunny" and Running away from confrontation never gave anything (not in Arab world, not anywhere in the world) - so create Iron Wall and make sure that Arab neighbours know, that there is no way to break in. As everyone knows (and it is common sence prooven by history), is is not peaceful intentions that make peace, but ballnce of powers.

The best definition was give by a post that called Hezbollah, a branch of the Iranian regime. Hazardous to all, to its own Hizbollah soldiers, to the Lebanese, Palestinians, Israelis...to Israeli-Arabs. The serious conflict of the Middle East is the competition of the cultures: Jewish religious Jewish secular Muslim religious Christian religious.... Openminded people are rejected by their own communities. The bridge must be built between the cultures, and a central unified cultural umbrella must be raised to give home to all decent citizens.

Confederation is about the only idea I've heard on which Shimon Peres and Benny Elon agree. Whether you use a positive comparison--Benelux--or a negative one--Bantustan--the practicalities are much the same. Pakistan's relationship with its autonomous Pashtun areas seems peaceful enough, as does Canada's with Inuit autonomy, and Sweden's with the Lapplanders. All these Bantustans seem reasonably functional. Switzerland, though, took many decades of warfare to shake out into the present confederation.

How you want to prevent jewish or islamic fundamentalism???

olmert got elected basically for one reason: because he said he will pull out, no matter what. everybody knows keeping west bank wasnt very clever. but now, olmert is busy with other things than pullout, and IL public would never allow it right now. as for serenity: i didnt know about the SCO, interesting indeed. so you think india and china will join the muslims in their struggle to become a superpower that imposes its will on others by terror if not getting what they wish? that is bad news indeed. turkeys eu membership has been discussed a lot-not anymore. the main objective to its membership is that europeans do not want 20% of its population to be islamic and thats why its not going to happen. all turks i know dont count on it, and dont need it really. the only argument for turkey membership is that the could invent some new kind of islam, more tolerant. the oil, i forgot. yeah its important everybody wants it. on the other hand: wasnt it really hot this summer? bises

The best post I've read on haaretz.com in some time. Why are most world governments putting fear of radical islam ahead of the safety and well being of their citizens? Have they learned nothing from history????

George Bush II has done a serious number on civil liberties in just six years. Wiretaps without warrants, Gitmo, lots of other surveillance and worrisome precedents. The reason, or the pretext, is Islamist terrorism. Military people tell me they are planning for a 70-year war. Translates as less and less freedom. Western Europe never had the freedom the US has (had). But they have the same reason to reduce civil liberties, and many have. Atheist, "progressive" states like East Germany and mainland China consistently have the worst civil rights record, followed closely by Islamist regimes.

This is what your leaders have done since Ben Gourion. Their steps can be followed from the blood they left behind. So much blood is never an encouraging omen in any kind of circumstance. Israel should stop blaming its neigbours. Israel has raped their country and defiled the basic laws of hospitality. Gideon Levy is one of the rare intelligent and humanistic voice you can hear in Israel. If there weren't any voice like his, the whole world would be antisemitic.

From Hoistory we come to know many things about man kind. It is a known fact that Jews were never in peace with them selves and outside world. In the past twelve tribes used to fight for supiriority and they divided the country in two and perished, they fought with babylonians and lost, they fought with Romans and lost and now with muslims the history will repeat. Learn from your history be wise.

The three countries you mentioned are three of the wealthiest on earth. Not to mention government free of fascism. Imagine what the world would be like without the strength and determination of the United States of America. In 1945, the USA delivered freedom and prosperity by destroying the fascists, due to the strength of the FDR Democrats. Chamberlain, Vichy France and the rest of the left delivered the Nazi's, gas chambers, V2s, Mussolini, and the Kamikaze pilot.

This latest round of violence in Lebanon was started by unprovoked raids by Hezbollah. What business do they have in Isreal/Palestine? And why shouldn't Isreal go after groups that threaten it, especially ones that have no business being there? The arabs are right, Israel should just sit there and take it until Iran gets the weaponry to occupy the whole region. Then every citizen will be free from the burden of free-will and independent thought, and we can all be dictated to.

"The right has no answer to the damage we now face"Gideon Levy.Levy is wrong.His preception of the historic dynamics is fraudulent.When all is said and done.Pan Arabism,which is a pure Sunni Moslim movement went into a black hole. Swallowed by history,never to return.That was the great danger to Israel.Today's real fight is steaming between the Sunni & Shiait*.Both rich and powerful in equal measure.The perfect ingredients of war.Israel is used as a diversion to an unholy alliance."The right has to come up with some answers now" Levy. Now? Why? One can't dictate to History. That was the grave mistake of the Left.History is an organic breed You can't have grape in winter.History is not an event.You can't decide on the time and the venue. History is the'time will tell'.Artificial History is to give land. Will that soleve problems?**.'Left&Ringht'a misconception unsuitable for Israel.It paralysis its March. Don't invent events.Akram Zekaria *Iraq/Iran-War**Gaza

Correct,sir,in best case life under sharia if you don¨t want to fight.Those,who are not quite blind could see their future right in Lebanon and not since just now.Life became more interesting!!!Just get rid all parasites out of the country

75% of my lot wants a free palestine too, and acted accordingly by pulling out. so why do you say we became crazy in the last 10 years? in the last 10 years, we made up our minds that we have to pull out. why is it that we get punished for it now? i have to admit, the 1st intifada was kinda justified, otherwise IL would have dreamed on to wake up one day with no more palestinians around them anymore. but after that...nothing but scummy action it is stunning, amazing: we became nicer and get hate, muslims do nothing but shit and get understanding. or did they do anything good which escaped my attention? it is nothing but fashion, this understanding

"Israel alone created Radical Islam......." So, let me get this straight. Israel is the reason the following passages are in the Quran: -Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. -Disbelievers will be burned with fire. -Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) -f the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. -For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. -Whoso ... disbelieveth Allah will punish him with direst punishment.

So you support them living in refugee camps in Arab countries? Your concern shines from here.

Several of my posts stated hopes that Israel wouldn't go to war with Lebanon. You had a perverse pleasure in this war. Not I. Do you also support Moshe's call for the right of return? Did you read my original post to Moshe? Guess not...

I believe strongly that it is time for the democracies of the world to wake up and recognize the threat to our safety that our governments are failing to address. "Playing politics with our safety", as Atlas writes. I propose and am founding a Grand Alliance of Jews, Christians, and Hindus to give those who threaten us the jihad they so desire - on the civil, political, intellectual, and, yes, the physical-defense level. Time to get serious, friends, if our governments - now even Israel! - won't. Time to "jihad" for our safety, that of our families, and that of our societies. Email at jdka56@hotmail.com with ideas or expressions of interest in alliance.

The Jews will be in Israel long after the British kick all the Muslims out of England.

And what is exactly according to confused peacenicks like Gideon Levy "the alternative we never tried"?Converting to islam?Moving Israel to New Mexico?Forget about that "jewish state thing"?

The ANC declared years in advance of the end of apartheid that SA was to be for all of its inhabitants. That's not the sort of message coming from Hamas & Hez.

Gideon Levy must be Israel's best journalist. If the Cabinet were full of such folks, Israel's problems could finally be solved. Bravo!

I admit that Australia through it's British settlement has been abominable to our aborigines but they are not extinct and never came close. However, we did take their children for about 70 years pretending we were doing them a favour, we stole their land, and the early Brits certainly tried to kill them or breed them out. We also herded them into missions, just like the Brits did everywhere they went. However, vast tracts of the land has been handed back and we are not allowed to freely enter and destroy landmarks like Uluru anymore, as it should be. Israel has become insane over the last 10 years and should listen - we out here are sick to death of it and the carnage inflicted on the Palestinians - 83% of my lot want a free Palestine. Israel should ponder that.

What the right has to offer Israel and the United States is what it offered to Italy, Japan and Germany in the 1930s, delusions of empire and grandiose conquests; what it delivers is what it delivered to those nations in the 1945. Death, destruction and poverty.

May God bless you and makes possible your plan.

Moshe, don't try to explain reality to members of the psycho-reich like Gina. Reality is dirty word to them. They know that Israel lost this war because of the French, Liberals, the Press, the Palestinians who don't exist and the vast Twinky Conspiracy to do away with the latke; in simple terms, anything but them. This was a war they wanted, it was a war the got. And now they cannot be held responsible.

The left assumes that the opponents of Israel are civilized and want peace as well. This premise is flawed to the core. The facist enemies of Israel want an end to "occupation", an occupation which is defined much differently than that which the left assumes the occupation to be. "Occupied lands", to borrow a phrase from Iran, Hezbollah, PLO, Hamas, Syria, means all of Israel. End the occupation means the end of the state of Israel. The left does not comprehend this. The right does.

A true leader needs to emerge who will have the courage to tell the israeli public the following:'we have made a terrible mistake in staying in the teritories we occupied during the great military victory of the six day war. we made an even greater historical mistake when we allowed jews to move to those territories as settlers. in order to save our nation and terminate the israeli/palestinian/arab conflict, i promise you that if elected, i will dismantle all the settlements built since 1967 and pull out of the territories, including arab east jerusalem and the golan heights in return for a formal peace agreement with the palestinian authority and syria. the only alternative to this plan is the eventual destruction of the state of israel.'

I see. Mr Fisher is not up to date. 1) If you haven't noticed Iran is protected by the 2 Asian members on the UN security council regarding the Iranian nuclear issue 2) Since June 2006, Iran has become a full member of the Shangai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) which includes.... India. This organisation represents as themselves said half of the world population. 3) The SCO has been created to counter to the NATO Israel is planning to be part of. At the same time another important Muslim country (Turkey) is already part of NATO and may become part of the EU. In that case the Muslim population rate of in the EU would goes from 4.4% to 20% in one day. I don't know how do you proceed intellectually but putting all those clues together lead to a unique solution which is a rise of a new superpower in the world in 20 years: the Muslim world. I know that a lot of people throughout the world are working very hard to avoid this scenario but they won't succeed for one reason: the OIL.

"Radical Islamism is not the enemy of Israel alone, it`s the enemy of all and so is radical anything, e.g. radical Judaism." ...You equate Judaism in the extreme with Islam in the extreme. But the former, inherently good, has always been the answer to mankind's problems and the latter, innately evil, has become the source of mankind's problems.

gina=christian zionist

And why, for purposes of responding to this particular article by Gideon Levy, does it matter? You write: "He (some character unknown to me) calls the Holocaust just 'a minor disciplinary action' by the Germans. I guess I should be expecting more of this Holocaust denial as Haaretz reaches its full potential." What I don't understand, given that haaretz regularly withholds a number of my own posts and others, is why it should include one like this, which is entirely off-topic, and which, what is more, does not appear, even, to be responding to any other poster's comments.

No one should be surprised at the sale of 25% of Haaretz to a German firm with a Nazi past. After all the original founder of Haaretz was a German national of the Mosaic faith. The Jew came into the picture when the Nazis took over. This 'liberal'paper is just what the Germans need to prove their 'change of heart'. Mr. Schocken said that the generations after 1945 should not be blamed for the 'sins of their fathers'. Funny those who claim so still accuse me of being a 'Christ killer' although this happened much more than two generations ago.

Recently it was reported that 25% of Haaretz was sold to a German company. Later it was revealed that this German company has a Nazi past. Today you print an email from an anti-Jewish ignorant, hate-filled Arab living in London, by the name of Amin Nussebeh. He calls the Holocaust just "a minor disciplinary action" by the Germans. I guess I should be expecting more of this Holocaust denial as Haaretz reaches its full potential.

following the right's policy and ideology since 1967 has brought israel to this point, where her long term survival is very much in doubt. the right has no answers to many existential questions, and dead wrong ones to others. when labor was in power, it basically pursued a likud policy and ideolgy of basing the state's security occupation, colonies and colonists, although rhetorically the were more moderate. the israeli public now resembles a fire victim with 3rd degree burn injuries who believes that in order to cure his horribll injuries he needs to pore boiling water on his scorched flesh. they will realize in no time at all that turning over the helm of their country to the right will bring the end much faster.

Why not offer evry Israeli-settler a one-way ticket to New York, Miami or Russia. The WJC should still have some money left from what they got from the Swiss Banks a few years ago. You could call this the the left-wing solution...

Marylin should learn more history. You are not talking of a country but of a continent and I doubt if any of your Asian 'friends'would contemplate conquering a continent. You have such wonderful friends, like Indonesia; remember Bali where they 'lovingly' killed many Ozies. Because of the size of your country they will show you their love, admiration and concern by killing your tourists after taking their dollars. Here you are talking of a country that would probably fit many times into Victoria, never mind Australia. Yours is the most unfair comparison

and our government shouild leave you alone to clean up the mess you created with your "Engulf and Devour" attitude... ....NOT with our soldiers blood and taxpayers money.

Thank you!! I was just going to send an answer to Gideon Levy and here you are... Thank you, thank you from all my heart, and... hey Gideon, you have some comment for the gentleman from London?

Yes indeed why is it you write such silly articles ? Do you honestly believe that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is due to what you call 'occupation'. Nonsense ! Is it not yet clear to you that Iran,Syria,Hamas & Hizbollah are sworn to the destruction of israel ?You keep on hearing it from the President of Iran:'the only solution to the Middle East crisis is the destruction of Israel'.Do you honestly believe that negotiations would lead to a true peace? do you think that the Palestinians & the Muslim world will ever be satisfied with the West Bank etc? There will never be peace unless Israel gives up the whole Land of Israel including Haaretz ! wake up Gideon !

Palestinians should lobby the Arab League to pressure Arab countries to assimilate those Palestinians that have been left to rot by their "brothers" -=== The Palestinians are already home on what remains of their own land. If you have a problem with that then you need to leave and go back to wherever you or your people came from -- to Kiev or Addis ababa or Peru or Brooklyn. People don't get to be given countries based on their religion, and Israel has done such a bad job with the gift it was given (or allowed to share) that it has lost its right to exist in Palestine. Go home.

...so the right has nothing than short-term plans to offer. And what has the leftish leadership to offer in return not to "choose the right's approach"? To redeploy the army a little back without saying anything to anyone, and hope his neighbours to be fully satisfied and thanks? To build a slightly larger ghetto for Palestinians so that they will stop claiming? To make the same wars of the right, but from a leftish point of wiew? To fight now, but hoping in a brighter future when Arabs magically will became "parties" whorty to speak with? If that's the situation, the first thing the left had to offer to implement the "left's approach", is a different leadership.

you are right, australians are not so arrogant with native inhabitants: they just killed almost all of them so there are no aborigins left to be mean to. we jews are something better than the rest of the world: certainly not always the nicest in all areas , sometimes arrogant and definetly taking care of our interests, but violent? no! we are the only ones that get in such predicaments cuz we are the only ones that wouldnt have killed ALL PALESTINIANS when it was possible and no kofi annan was around to give a shit. and the goym, especially the arabs, know that. we are a mirror for them. deep inside, espaecially the arabs, they know how bad they are compared to us. thats why they hate us and keep on looking all day for mistakes we make.

For over a century, you convinced the world to a mythical jewish past in Palestine. You conflagrated a minor disciplinary action in Germany to a "holocaust", and when you received weapons, you showed yourself more burtal than Hitler or Stalin. The natives have awakened and gotten wise to your myths. There is no place for Jews in Palestine. Get out.

"Do you know why we (Australians) have never had such a war (with surrounding Asian countries)? WE make friends with people." True, but with a few resounding caveats: You Australians do not regard yourselves as the Chosen People who enjoy an inherited, G_d-given right to the Land. You do not necessarily regard the Asians as inferior to you culturally, morally and spiritually. You do not treat your Asian neighbors as if they were dirt.

I ususally find it hard to agree with Gideon Levy, particularly the way he says what he does. However, this article is well reasoned and actually identifies the true Right response; i.e to withdraw to 1967 boundaries on the best possible terms( by agreement and excluding Jerusalem) to ensure that the Jewish State has a Jewish majority. It is sad and sickening to see left and right, not least in these comment colums, blaming each other for the results of a war which appeared to have no positive outcome. On the other hand maybe there will be a positive result if the obvious lessons are learned from the defects in miltary preparedness to fight the war which Levy remarked on.

radicals are a minority? hmmm so why do the run the show in lebanon and why are they in office in teheran? i know there are some normal molems (no fans of us either for which there is no obligation) but they are like the jews: busy with getting along. but honestly, free thinker: how many are there and how much power do they have??? it is stunning, in those places were there is the highest percentage of decent people (like lebanon and iran) the politics are the worst and most evil while in places the US has ties with the percentage of peaceful people must be questioned 20 years, 20 years are going to decide the future: decent people running the show or the whole ME going to hell

Hezbollah works. What Iran and Syria have learned to do is penetrate a country like Lebanon, win popular support, and then use this support as a shield. The net result is that they have someone else that gratefully fights the war they want but do not want to get too personal with. Constrast this with the West. The West takes the a top down approach. They buy off the leadership (usually corrupt and hated) and then get them to do their bidding. The problem with this is what gets lost, the hearts and minds of the people. I guess what I am trying to say is the right does work. It may not be working now but that does not mean that it can't. It is just a matter of looking at the enemy and recognizing that they are really smart and have figured it out.

An Arab decides to send some emails advocating Israels' destruction. Rather than use his real name he needs to come up with a "Jewish sounding name". Lets see, theres "David Goldberg", theres "Israel Katz" and "Moshe Cohen". He decides to go with "Moshe Cohen" and then eagerly types in his venom which Haaretz has now problem accepting.

It is time for Israel to stop pondering the issue of ME peace because the key to peace lies only with Israel's adversaries. As long as they do not want peace there will be no peace; and at present they do not want peace. Therefore, Israel's strategic plan must be only for its survival. Israel's adversaries must understand that its survival is secure. Then and only then will they change from their course of seeking Israel's destruction rather than risk their own survival. Israel has a very short time to prepare such a strategic plan. Its greatest enemy is its own fractured society. To develop such plan Israel needs a strong unified leadership that can and will confront and overcome resistence from the left, right and arabs. Shalom!

I think you missed my point. Radical Islamism is not the enemy of Israel alone, it's the enemy of all and so is radical anything, e.g. radical Judaism. As to your promise that "we`ll get around to the rest", i can only surmise that it's the Arabs you're referring to, in which case i'll have to feel very sorry for you indeed.

no, i was considering the rise of china as well. 1. china has no interest whatsoever in all of this. i billion chinese, out of them 3million muslims. you pull a trick on them once, islam in china is finished. islamic groups can conspire in china - for 2 minutes app. 2. with the rise of the chinese, people in the west will soon have other worries than to think about jewish power and jewish money cuz it will be the chinese buying up their places. and although being very critical and even pessimistic sometimes i dont think they will believe jews run china 3. chinese will not become muslims nor let islam rule asia through indonesia, neither will japan. they dont like the US or IL or the arabs or anyone. they just wanna make money with whoever. they have no inferiority complexions. you get in their way, you lose. 4. same applies to india, another billion, and no fan of yours WE HAVE TO HOLD OUT UNTIL ALL OF THIS HAPPENS: LESS OIL CONSUMPTION; ARABS LEAVING EU; CHINA RISING: 20 years

MA CHERIE. C'est impossable. The Chinese will have a field day if you raise your ugly heads of Islamofascism. Europe WILL come to the conclusion that you want to conquer them from within and will deal with your desires by kicking you out on your donkeys.You were a backwater civilization and will revert back to the days of being herders and cave dwellers. This MA CHERIE right now is your finest hour and fleeting extremely fast

Gideon Levy is a dhimmi and a shit-eater. The left has dragged us all in the OSLO, into a "peace now", in the world of illusions bred by inability to look the TRUTH in the eye. The Left is a cancer eating into the body of Israel. When I was a soldier sitting on top a mountain on the very tip of Sinai, overlooking both the bays and Africa on the right and Saudi coast on the left, and from our post to Tel Aviv was an hour of flight by Boeing - I felt as good as never before, and my country SAFE. What you lefties offer is for us all to stand in the pose of a praying Arab - and hope that he, the Arab, will somehow pass by our bum and go away. Even now - NOW! - instead of putting your dirty tongue where it belongs - you have this hutzpa of pretending that your way of betrayal and dhimmitude is the ONLY way for your country! Just get out of Israel and go somewhere where at least your corrosion and rotten stink will not poison the atmosphere in the Jewish Land!

You know what is wrong with the right but what exactly is the lefts plan you speak of? Can Hamas be trusted to not begin rocket fire if we negotiate a pullout? The real problem is not to look at the 90% of Arabs who want a peaceful solution but to figure out to get them to deal a death blow to the 10% in their midst who want to destroy Israel. That is the real trick. No plan will be any good until it addresses that issue.

The right's only answer is more and more of the same. The only sane answer is an international conference with all the parties, Iran possibly excluded. An agreement should be reached whereby Israel withdraws to a rough approximation of the 1967 lines in return for a peace and recognition treaty with Syria and Palestine. An international force should be prepared to patrol the demarcation lines, and a working group given authority to sanction those who do not abide by the treaty. Those who do not agree to the terms of the agreement will be ostracized by the international community.

You're just forgetting a little country called CHINA and more generally Asia were live the majority of the Muslim world. In ther near future the West will become one of the player and not the actual leader it is. I'm not sure Israel is of any use or draw any interest in Asia. Eventually you canc draw the conclusion by yourself regarding Israel future or absence of future.

Gideon seems to suggest that Left policies have worked or will certainly work in the near future. What a bunch of deluded crap. Gideon as a result of the lefts successes: How many Israelis and Jews were killed? How many were maimed ? How many Homicide bombings has Israel endured? How many Qassams and how many Katyushas? How many Homeless? Is this the measure of your success? You (the Left) were given 13 years to bring peace and no wars-You FAILED. Allow the right that same courtesy without your shrill interference and then we can judge who is right. Untie the IDF hands and then complain if they do not perform admirably. Let the Leftists unshacle Israel from Internationalism.

i want to point out once more my opinion that what is going on, has not that much to do with Israels actions. Israelis shouldn't overrate the impact of their actions on peoples minds in eu and arab world and rather focus on their survival strictly. what is going on now is nothing new. there is a conflict between arabs and the west and arabs and jews, and both are going on everybodies nerves. a hundred years ago, europe would have kicked out all muslims and jews for having too much power, like spain in 1489. many jews would have been killed. the only difference now is that jews have some friends in USA and some weapons and try to make people understand that it will make them suffer if they kill jews. THIS IS AS GOOD AS IT GETS! the eu, in 10-20 years from here will start to encourage arabs to leave europe. in 10-20 years, it will be clear as well that the world cannot afford to consume so much oil anymore. that is when IL will be able to pursue its interests in more vivid ways

When any concession made by Israel is interpreted by the other side as a defeat for Israel, no concessions should be made. This has been the case with enemies sworn to Israel's destruction. Don't patronize Israel's enemies. They should be only netralized and defeated decisively. Eventually the enemy will defeat itself.

Jewish occupation of the Land of Israel is the highest good and the only true reality for the Jewish people. The phoney and hypocritical denial of the hateful modern truth of Islam is evil and destruction. Darkness empowered by the twisted liberals like Levy. Any suffering has been caused by Islamic and Leftist desire to dominate and rule which is horrendous for the human spirit and humanity. Modern Islam is a sorry sick tradition that needs no empowerment and certainly no additional lands. Levy is a loser aligned with the forces of hate and destruction.

The left has no answer either. I think that a two-solution should and will be the inevitable solution. However, this is a long way from happening. Palestinians have to really accept Israel's right to exist. Hamas and Hezbollah are antisemiic groups that hate all Jews everywhere. This means that Hamas cannot moderate it views without becoming a completely different organization. The right is wrong to think that Israel can hold on to the West Bank forver, but I don't see a way out of the present situation for a very long time. The left continually sees moderation where there is none. It is not willing to face up to the hatred for Israel's very existence. Ending the occupation will not end hatred for Israel's existence. I say this a someone who supports a two-state solution, but that does not mean that I am blind to the truth. Iqbal, you fail to see the difference between fear and avarice.

were fighting for centuries. now we have a state of Israel and wasn't it clear the arabs would go very very far (ok they sunk surprisingly low in their warfare tactics) in order to remove it? the question, mr. levy, is: what has the left to offer? more withdrawal? and then what? getting shot at from gaza, west bank and south lebanon and then what? antisemitism and arab hatred are not necessarily connected to what is really going on. now for example, IL is really willing to make concessions but gets hated more than ever. the hatred comes and goes in waves. for now, IL can't do a thing than to hold out. IL shouldn't change it's policies. make it understood and clear that you want to pull out, under peaceful circumstances. in the same time, complete the wall, but move it partly back to the green line, except for ariel. do not listen to the people that criticize the wall, it helped a lot

The Palestinians had been living here, GIna, hundreds of years, before your Yeddish Khazari ancestors came here. You know it, I know it, the whole world knows it. When will you ever tell the truth.

...there nobody to talk to, there is nothing to talk about: Where are they leading and where are we going?... The only logical answer for this question is to follow the right main strategic goal: TO DESTROY IRAN NUCLEAR FACILITIES, and create THE GRANDMOTHER OF ALL BATTLES in ME that nobody would have a capability to stop. Then the world would be covered by a dark clouds of eliminating each other for the next 100 years. CONGRATULATION!

Zhabotinksy was honest: We're taking the land of a people, and they'll never aquiesce, not as long as they believe they can take it back. The Left never bought into that. They believed that the Arabs would be willing to exchange their lands for the right to participate in a superior civilization. They were wrong. Now you appear and offer the same failed recipe, claiming it's never been tried before, too blind to realize that the Arabs still are not willing to recognize your ownership of their lands. Zhabotinsky said if you accept the idea that the Jews have a right to a homeland in which they live as normal people like all other peoples then all else follows. Apparently you don't. Be honest about it: Zionist enterprise was wrong and Jews do not have the right to a homeland, that the price for it is to high. Say you agree with Ahmadinejad that the Jewish homeland should be in Europe, that Arabs should not have to pay for European cruelty.

Israel cannot win by military means. It needs credible religious leaders (e.g. Chaim Kanievsky, Rave Steinman, Rav Eliyahsiv, etc.) and there agents to speak with the Arabs and Iranians and arrange a long-term hudna, which may or may not include the continuance of the "State" of Israel as we know it (sorry Zionists). This could avert a catostrohpic war. Jews would remain subjugated, but we would have a better chance at preserving Jewish lives. There are no guarantees of safety in any direction, but we need to meet the Arabs and Iranians at the ONLY common denominator - religious belief and the sanctity of Jerusalem -and try from there. The notion that the Jewish people's only hope for survival in the land is the military portends disaster.

One of the most impressive things that happened during the past month in Israel was the remarkable unity within the country. Along come columns like Levy's usual nonsense to try to create divisiveness all over again. What a profound ignorance of history, of the history of Arab hatred and violence against Jews even before the state was established, the 'occupation' is a ridiculous notion of an excuse. Ben Uziel 27 and Steven 85 both have summarized accurately and made good suggestions, that the Levy's and Samet's, and Benvenisti's and Tibi's and all their self-hating ilk will fight bitterly - to Israel's detriment.

Dear Igal, thanks but I don't need your love, the Palestinans do. I told you not to sell my the 2000 years story but nevertheless you did. It's compulsory. Whatever you called them the ancestors of the people who decided to call themselves the Palestinians where already in Palestine when the Jews arrived there with Moshe. So they have the absolute right to live everywhere in Palestine and also in Israel. Until you accept that non negotiable condition there will be no permanent peace. My words are not harsh and I'm just trying to avoid a terrible war as I foresee what obviously you refuse to accept: the growing power of the Muslim world.

Unlike YOUR plan, which WOULD include ethnically cleansing ALL Jews from here (just as the Arabs did to us in 1948), Benny Elon's plan DOESN'T include that. The Arabs here can remain IF they choose to remain in peace. Try to have someone read it to you before responding again. If the Arabs are that racist and need to live with no Jews, then they'll just have to do it in THEIR 99.9% of the Middle East- NOT in OUR 1/10th of 1%.

"We have been trying the right's way for nearly 60 years." Huh? David Ben-Gurion (1948-54) Moshe Sharett (1954-55) David Ben-Gurion (1955-63) Levi Eshkol (1963-69) Golda Meir (1969-74) Yitzhak Rabin (1974-77) Menachem Begin (1977-83) Yitzhak Shamir (1983-84) Shimon Peres (1984-86) Yitzhak Shamir (1986-92) Yitzhak Rabin (1992-95) Shimon Peres (1995-96) Benjamin Netanyahu (1996-99) Ehud Barak (1999-01) Ariel Sharon (2001-06) Ehud Olmert (2006- )

"It is amazing to see how a failed and dangerous approach, which only makes things worse for Israel, wins increasing popularity after a war that proved just how ineffective that approach has become." It is not only amazing it is frightening. One poster even suggested that the moral and democratically-minded should leave Israel to the beligerent theocrats to destroy. So sad that this appears to be a best scenario for the moral and intelligent in Israel. Wonder if it was this way elsewhere 70-80 years ago.

what long term solution are you proposing, exactly. you seem just to be negating the right's position. i am on the 'right'. i'm willing to listen. i also listen to what the arabs are saying. that includes their presidents, governments, religious leaders, citizens, as well as their many supporters around the world. they all say very clearly and unequivocally that the only long-term solution is that the Jews get out of the Middle-east (at best) or commit collective suicide. again, what exactly is your solution?

Ranting , raving in the propaganda style of previous ISMS. There is a solution , its called population exchanges Jews in Egypt, Jordan, and Arab Lands for Arabs in Israel , Judea and Samaria. NOT FORCED TRANSFER. Just as Jews would get paid to move or to have moved to Israel so would the Arabs get paid to move. I would consider setting up autonomous areas within Judea and Samaria. Arabs can govern themselves without Israeli interference, without Israeli help either. They would be on their own:terror emanating from there would be dealt extremely harshly including forceful removal to an Arab country for the perpetrator, his family and any facilitator. Mr von Deludedman talks about long term but has neglected to take into account that Judea and Samaria with Gaza cannot be self sufficient now or in the FUTURE. So setting up a Failed State whose only import and export would be terror is DELUDED. Perhaps there is no solution but encouraging the Arabs to leave and be happy is a start.

Fritz wrote, "Israel has no message anymore if it ever had one, it is essentialy boring, not many people would miss it very much today." As a professor of Sexology I fear that you may be sexually unfulfilled Fritz. From our studies a change of name could be needed. Fritz reminds people of pre-mature ejaculation. As for seeking a message from Israel, I would recommend listening to the aspirations of Ben Laden the Iranians, and all these other folks who you probably consider paper tigers and clowns. If you are looking for more, then visit Tel Aviv and head down to its beach. I assure you that you will not be bored. But if you are seeking from Israel to make your life more exciting then please continue to write to this forum. At least it is keeping you and your depression off the street. When a fixation becomes boring, it is time to find a new fixation sir. How about picking on Belgium or Thailand. Both of them are facing their own Moslem problems.

so your solution is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the West Bank? How novel. And you expect them to co-operate in this? I expect you do not, perhaps they can be persuaded to accept your final solution through massacres and with a lot of military firepower?

"The Islamic radical fanatics in the Arab world are an absolute minority. ... I`m astonished that Israelis and the West consider this vile movement as their exclusive enemy." You're quite right. But first things first. As soon as we destroy the Islamic radical fanatics we'll get around to the rest.

The year is 1934. The place is Nazi Germany. It is one year before the 1935 passage of the Nuremberg Laws on Citizenship and Race under which Jews could no longer be citizens of Germany or marry Aryans. This is where Israel is at the present time in the Middle East. One year earlier, in 1933, Hitler began to openly express anti-Semitic ideas and to make life so unpleasant for Jews in Germany that they would emigrate. The campaign started on 1st April, 1933, when a one-day boycott of Jewish-owned shops took place. Under his leadership the hostility of towards Jews increased in Germany. This was reflected in the decision by many shops and restaurants not to serve the Jewish population. Placards saying "Jews not admitted" and "Jews enter this place at their own risk" began to appear all over Germany. In some parts of the country Jews were banned from public parks, swimming-pools and public transport. Germans were also encouraged not to use Jewish doctors and lawyers. Jewish civil servants, teachers and those employed by the mass media were sacked. Members of the SA put pressure on people not to buy goods produced by Jewish companies. Many Jewish people who could no longer earn a living left the country. In just four years, on November 9th-10th, 1938 Crystal Night will occur. This is the equivalent event that some Middle East muslims are planning for the state of Israel. The Israeli public must demand that its leaders develop a strategic counter plan NOW. If they wait for the Muslim equivalent of Crystal night to develop such a plan it will be insufficient.

it is a shame that many Israeli continue to ignore the demographic reality of the middle east. In 20 years: 1.8 billion muslims, 500 million arabs, 35-40% of Israelis will be arabs, 20-25 million muslims in USA, several muslim countries with nuclear capabilities and many other with WMD. I ask all Israelis, how long you think the US will be on the top, how long u think the arabs and muslims not untied just think about this for more than a few seconds. 20 years is not that long so I suggest for all Israelis who want to see their children and grandchildren live in Palestine, stop your agression and occupation of arab lands (1967). Make peace while u are strong and hope in 1-2 generations we can truly live as cousins. shalooum

..but the left always censors them. Lets see if Haaretz will print this. (1) Become better Jews so G-d will protect us. (2) Annex Yesha and repatriate the Arabs. (3) Reform the educational system in order to promote Judaism in order to increase dedication . (4) Reform the court system in order choose justices who are more concerned with the Jewish people instead of their own agenda. (4) Bust the monopolies and increase privitization since a strong economy means a stronger nation. (5)Reform the media to eliminate the leftist monopoly. (6)Enforce laws on polygamy so that Arabs no longer have financial incentives to advance their demographic agenda. (7) Give as many column-inches to Moshe Feiglin as Gideon Levy so people like me won't have to waste their time writing "Talkback" responses.

Mr Levy writes that the IDF cannot fight a real war and that the right does not offer any solution to the on-going conflict. He forgets conveniently that the IDF won in 48, 67, 73 and now that Israel occupies (again) provisorily lebanon. He forgets conveniently that the left governede Israel repeatedly and had no other solution either but to fight.He forgets conveniently that Hitzbollah, Hamas and others want the Destruction of the state of Israel. This is the issue he should deal with. We are facing here a situation to be compared with the wars between France and Germany during centuries. This war will also last, Israel must show the same resolve than the Arabs.

The Islamic radical fanatics in the Arab world are an absolute minority. Main stream Sunnis, Shiites, Christians, and other minorities are well aware of the evil and danger that religious extremism represents. I'm astonished that Israelis and the West consider this vile movement as their exclusive enemy.

http://www.jerusalemsummit.org/eng/hs_short_eng.htm

it is exactly what you say. But the reverse: We were here 2000 years and there were never a Palestian state or any kind of it. Your name is SERENITY, and it is very nice, but you talk like you are in the SERENITY sea which is on the moon. Exatly, so it can happen that none of us will be here if all the atomic weapons are used. so you will loose Mecca Medina and some other capitals and we will loose only one place. Jews are persecuted 2000 yeears and still continue to exist. Other jews will come from other countries and will rebuild the whole story. So why, if we can compromise as gentlemen?? think again all about. I send you my love despite your bad words.

http://www.therightroadtopeace.com/eng/defaulteng.html EVERY purported "peace plan" to date has been based on false premises- namely, that if we give up part of OUR land to our enemies, there will be peace. Instead, it has only led to war and bloodshed. It's time for a paradigm shift- a plan that takes into account the reality. It's time for Benny Elon.

Tank crews that were used to barrages of stones and Molotov cocktails were suddenly met with armor-piercing anti-tank missiles. In the next war, which heaven forbid we will face, the much-praised pilots will discover themselves in unfamiliar territory: instead of open, surrendered skies, there will be air forces. The pilots will be as unprepared as the tank crews who were not trained for war. An army that has mostly been devoted to disgraceful policing and foolish assassinations in occupied territories does not know how to fight a real war. This guy is clueless. I am not even sure he is a real Israeli. Israel illed 500 Hezbollah fighters, America has killed tens of thousands of Taliban/Al Qaida/Iraqi insurgents. Israel and especially America, are the best "Real War Fighters" in the world. This guy is obviously a terrorist sympathizer, who doesn't want to admit that his beloved Hezbollah and Al Qaida...got their butts handed to them.

I don't think so. The man has been making valid contributions to the concept of Israeli existentialism. Just as it is now impossible to erase the injustice of the European conquest of the New World, so is the creation of the state of Israel. The vast majority of Arabs have accepted it. Otherwise they would have long ago taken recourse to current Hezbollah tactics. The longer Israel takes to solve the Palestinian problem the more the radicalisation of the Arabs and the larger Muslim world. That does not augur well for Israel's long term future. Like I said in an earlier post a nation cannot keep fighting/wining forever. For that matter it is a axiom that 'nothing remains the same for ever'.

A state is defined by 2 criteria: 1) A constitution 2) Internationally recognized borders The country named Israel has none of them. Therefore Israel is may be a state to be but up to now it's at best a deficient one and at worst a not recognizable state in its present form.

Already with Menachem Begin this question rose. What is the long term plan for the Pals (or Arabs, whatever you like to call them they do exist)? Transfer, endless occupation or binational state? There was no answer then and there is no answer now. Israel thought the Pals in the end would accept a sort of slavestatus, being second ranks nothings under occupation forever. In Europe we see this, we are not blinded by military power and empire thinking. In the US and Isarel it is the flight forward. Just like Europe did when it started to loose it's colonies.

There are 500,000 emigrants from South Adrica in North America and counting. Add Australia, Europe etc and the milions of whites that look to loquidate their holdings and leave. Within a generation South Africa will have less than 5% whites. 20% of South Africans will perish in AID's pandemic (Their Health Minister refuses to issue condoms and anti AID's drugs to a army!!! SA will slide into Zimbabwelike state after Mandella dies. Winnie will resurface.

BeezrathaShem, if it could be that simple. Do you think that Jews and Muslims would give up their specific characteristics, and adopt freedom of religion? Is any country in the Arab world able or even willing to do that? So how would Israel manage it? What Arabs would want to live under the symbol of the Magen David? One state with 2 flags? So then, how could it be one state? What about Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Syria, not to mention the Sh'ia populations of Iraq, Iran and elsewhere? You're talking not just about the Palestinians. You've misunderstood the identity of what it means to be a)Muslim, b)Arab, c)etc.Or am I stoking the fire and giving it more importance than it deserves? It has to be a regional movement. Perhaps we should start to see if we can establish some kind of link with the Palestinians, Israel and Jordan. Some kind of cooperative federation... Anyway, it's clear that we have to find some kind of modus vivendi.

Words of a wise man indeed! The truly astonishing thing is "why don't more people see it?" An added benefit is that once Israel embraces this "civil"ized form of government, some rotting Arab regimes will have no excuse not to follow suit.

Let's take all the money being wasted on the Wall, and all the money planned for the TRANSFER of Jews out of their homes in Judea and Samaria and instead offer each Arab family $100,000 and a plane ticket to anywhere in the world. That is a Right-wing solution that will work.

I read your article twice and couldn't seem to find the approach we have never tried. What is it? What is your answer? It appears the only approach acceptible by Hezbullah, Iran, Syria, Hamas, etc. ... according to their own words... is the removal of Israel from all of "Palestine". How do you propose to address this question? What do you think these countries and groups will want/accept to leave us alone? Criticism is easy, but without offering an alternative, what's the point?

"They must admit us first and then all can be manageable" Certainly not. I don't who educate you but when you are the last to arrive YOU have to do everything possible to integrate into the environment YOU've decided to live in and don't sell me your rubbish "we were the first in the ME" story. Therefore until you change your stance and you apologize for the criminal behaviour you've had since 1948 your future will be putted at stake. We underestimated the Arabs for decades and you were propably right but you can bear firmly in your mind that the Muslims if they decided so will wipe Irael off the map. The US will be useless to prevent such a move. Today you still can afford not to trust me but in that case you're just digging your own grave.

Gideon Levy is a breath of fresh air in this discussion. Of course, the right-wing is totally dishonest and responsible for the mess in which Israel finds itself. Bibi and the Likud budget-cutting hollowed out the IDF and made Israel vulnerable. Like Halutz and Bush and Cheney and his Neo-Con idiots, they had a misguided faith in the illusion of strategic bombing. In the end, Israel must recognize that there is no alternative to peaceful coexistence behind secure and defensible borders. Only the left has a means to this fundamental truth. The Right offers only endless and futile warfare at enormous social and economic cost!

Hey Joe, are you a god fearing man? I get the impression that you may have read the Book of Revelations a touch litterally (fair enough, it is meant litterally). But perhaps when offering advice to the Jews of Israel you ought to preface your statements by saying that, once they have conquered the Middle East you expect all of those who refuse to convert to (your brand of extremist) Christianity to be slaughtered, otherwise one might consider you to be acting in bad faith (excuse the pun).

Israel boasts publicly about beating Hezbollah,well if that is you public face for private embarrassment,then your standards are low. Two captive soldiers are not free,wasn't this Israel's public reason for this senseless war,of course we know this was an excuse to cripple Hezbollah, who Israel fears. Blaming Iran and Syria for supplying Hezbollah with anti tank weapons,that destroyed several of your high class tanks and under equipped and hungry soldiers.Noboby complained about the US sending those cluster bombers, in which you have killed over a thousands innocent Lebanese, and you have lost over 40 innocent Israelis. Israelis popuplation is this acceptable and do you still feel secure.True peace only can be done through negotiation, and eventually you'll have to negotiate with Syria. Not one Israelis PM,whom has promised it's citizens security in the last several years have delivered it.The mindset has to change,they would rather a war than to end the occupation.

"Any liberal that believes in justice, freedom and rule of law should come and live in a free, democratic liberal society - Western Europe." Sure, then you'll learn firsthand what it means to live under the Muslim thumb.

dear Moshe, yes it should be the very best solution for the future of everybody, but you forget one thing : the zionist politics do not want this kind of land : they want a pure zionist land, as pure as possible, and when there are more arabs than jewish people, democracy doesn't work any more in the way zionists want it ... so democracy has its limits for zionists, they want a great Israel, but a 90 % jewish one !! USA and bush-people never would like to get a peacefull Israel : do not forget you are a step-down for USA in middle east they will never want to loose this !!! influence, influence, military commerce, your Israel is their carpet !!