What do mosque minarets and kosher slaughter have in common?

your: "And exactly what did you mean by:`They do not issue Fatwas to assassinate writers or caricaturists`?? You are that young that you never heard of "The Satanic Verses" of Rushdie? Check Google...He remained alive thanks to protection by the UK. But Theo van Gogh, the Dutch filmmaker and writer (great-grandson of the brother of van Gogh) was less lucky. He was murdered by Muslims for some mocking of Islam which you are only "hissing" at, but others kill. And then the Danish caricatures, etc...that's why Europe is living in fear for getting killed for an "insult". A caricature is an insult...Oh God! And that brings me to your second issue: the young generation vs the old... I know everything about it from my own 3 daughters...They (only two) voted Obama and I, McCain. But we remained friends. The "feelings" are not so,so,so strong as yours. And if older people are more tolerant than the young, I am not sure which is better. Certainly not as sure as you are about everything.

Of course, because banning kosher slaughter because is cruel & minarets because Islam may be a threat can't be considered valid reasons... Sigh. So the Swiss, damn, they're antisemites! It's so obvious...

were ashamed to admit it. Do you remember the surprise when the result was announced, contrary to what had been predicted? That's because when asked before voting, most Swiss said they'd vote against banning minarets, but once in the ballot box, unobserved except by their own consciences, they voted their real feelings. By the way, that persistent defender of Swiss morality and religious tolerance and justice, you know who I'm talking about, Swiss Dino, seems to be remarkably absent from this discussion. Why?

Switzerland, a supposedly "ultra-neutral" country, where Islam has never been a historical threat (unlike in other parts of Europe) is pulling a move here on par with Saudi Arabia. Even in Syria and Egypt, churches are numerous and their bells ring out on a daily basis. But when it comes to a bunch of Bosnian and Turkish immigrants in the Alps, god forbid granting them a recognizable place of worship. Just imagine, for one moment, what the international reaction would be like if a Germanic European country with a Jewish population of 350,000 banned synagogues. They might even defend the ban with a ridiculous stereotype ("we're afraid of a subtle, Jewish threat on our values"). The historical irony here is depressing.

We humans are attractively complex beings. But when religion enters the conversation, the complexity borders on bigotry and the attractiveness turns to stone. It's either that the symbols of religion are polarizing or our paranoia gene goes into hyper-drive. Either way nothing is spared, not the Temple Mount in Jerusalem or the minarets in Switzerland... not even the Great Buddha's of Afghanistan. One thing is a constant, if religion was practiced in private... outside the symbols of the state, no one would be offended and we'd all be better of.

"Its not only ultra orthodox jews who worry about kashrut, many ordinary generally secular jews still see Kashrut as important and will only eat kosher food.' Zionist Forever On behalf of me and my cousins, the sons and daughters of Persians, we too have a problem with the whole practice, not because we care about the halalness or kosherness of the kill but the kill ITSELF!! Some of us have been struggling with being vegetarians for decades....and many of us keep falling off the wagon....ALAS!!!!

I'm betting that I am more American in every way than you are. And it was precisely that Americanism that found Jasper's post offensive to my sensibilities. Afterall, to the younger, hipper and socially more adept Americans, racial/ethnic/religious jokes are offensive. But for what I hear, the 'older' generation as well as some not-so-metropolitans are yet to catch up with our social evolution. And exactly what did you mean by:'They do not issue Fatwas to assassinate writers or caricaturists'??? exactly what do you mean S? This my friend, I believe, qualifies as bigotry!!LOL.... You do know that I am NOT a muslim, NO? (not that there's anything wrong with it). My childhood memories are filled with all kinds of different kindnesses of different religions, Christian, Muslim, Jews, Bahai and Zoroastrians. And this concludes my exchanges with you. You can use your sharp and mainly useless tongue on someone who actually takes it. Capiche S? Biggest HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

In Australia we have Mosques/minarets, Churches/steeples, Synagogues and other religious houses of worship. : )

You had better read the article again..or better yet, have it interpreted...You've missed the point! There will be other steps taken to change the landscape over the world and the Jews will whine again.. It has nothing to do with 'civil rights', it has to do with the same reasons Jews want Palestinians out of Palestine.. Only the Swiss have good reasons as it's their legal county...whereas Israel is on someone else's land and confiscating more. It's not legal..and never will be.. Now what part of that don't you understand?? TATA

Why in spain we can see mostly women praying in churches, in the moshe we see only men screaming Allah ou akbar, maybe women cant read the coran, maybe they are not allowed to go to school, swiss people want tranquility, they want to live in peace, with less noise as possible

After all, PK, you never heard Polish, Yidish or Italian jokes? That's why America is great. One can tell those jokes and everybody laughs. No one is accused of bigottry. They do not issue Fatwas to assassinate writers or caricaturists...

In the absence of banning all meat, the barbaric slaughter of fully conscious animals should be outlawed .We would see just how quickly more humane ways of killing would be employed. Vegetarian

Kahrut is the kindest form of slaughter A very sharp knife is used to cut the jugular vain and the animal bleeds to death very quickly When you stun an animal it feels pain and sometimes you have to stun then 2-3 times. Kashrut there is no pain from the stunning they are in pain for a matter of seconds. There are very strict laws with Kashrut if the blade of the knife has the slightest nick then the animal will be considered non kosher. Rules like this are for to cause the animal as little pain as possible. Its not only ultra orthodox jews who worry about kashrut, many ordinary generally secular jews still see Kashrut as important and will only eat kosher food. I used to go out with a woman she went to the synagogue just a few times a year on the main religious days like Yom Kippur, she did not keep Shabbat but she did keep kosher Minarets are not religious they were built to call muslims to prayer before the days of watches & alarm clocks they are not in themselves holy places

It's a good thing you don't have to travel far to see a bigot and a racist. All you have to do is go to your bathroom mirror. Have a nice trip.

on the creeping Islamization of Europe b/c the elites know perfectly well how it'll end. The elites would fight tooth and nail to keep the profitable arrangement with the oil-rich Muslim countries.

the will of Swiss who say No more minarets!Swiss Muslims have minarets there and Human rights don't say how many minarets must be tolerated anyway so instead of minarets, Human rights should protect Swiss identity of the aboriginal population.Not expansion of a foreign religion that doesn't fit Swiss and European mentality and culture. We have our religion,we don't need to be dominated by another one and watch public executions of gays here,thank you. We prefer to watch football game.

The cut must be so fast and the animal immediately loses consciousness from blood loss at the jugular. Not anymore suffering than electroshock, and certainly far less than hunting.

The leaders of the Jewish community were in favor of the minarets. So was I. Regarding animal cruelty in Switzerland. Here we have a serious situation. It is forbidden by law to cut the tail or ears of a dog. That is Swiss Law. Kosher/ Halal slaughter is construed as cruel. Jews and Muslims live without strife in this country, unlike our neighbors in France. Kosher meat is imported from France. Halal is the same. Many Swiss Jews buy Halal meat. Good day from snowy civilized Swiss Alps.

A country that had had no nationalist or social violence for CENTURIES. It is clearly thanks to wise arrange of decision mechanism that had so well worked for centuries. Swiss people have always had the right to decide for themselves, they have had no one else to blame. Maybe this is why they had never had revolutions, social cataclysms like their neighbors that now are criticizing them. The happiness of other people living in Switzerland begins with Swiss being content with their lives. You would not take pleasure in sadomasochism if you are not a sadomasochist. Remember, no ones bans islam. Just no minarets, please. No one bans Judaism. Just no animal torture (what kosher slaughter really is), please.

the domes are our helmets the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers" From Islamist PM Recep Edrogan. Does not help the cause of the majority of Moslems who just want to get on with their lives.

Like other Jews, Shlomo Avineri seems to have trouble talking about the discrimination/suffering of other people without putting forward their own, not matter its irrelevance. Now that the Swiss have voted a discriminatory constitutional amendment against Muslim, he manages to talk about how Jews are discriminated... First, let's remind that the Jewish community did not lift a finger during the anti-minaret campaign. However, during operation Cast Lead, many of them went out on the street to praise the Israeli massacre. So let's assume Swiss Jews are no better than the average Swiss citizen. Second, kosher=halal, is same same, isn't it? you cut the throat of the animal and let it bleed to death... In any case, you don't have to be antisemitic today to ban such ways of slaugtering. Perceiving this as a antisemitic is just bullshit, whereas the minaret ban is islamophobic. Let's stop putting Jewish suffering forward when it's not relevant.

the swiss people vated against the minarets, they are saying loud what all europe is thinking, muslims do not integrate, a moslem women will never marry a foreigner, she has no right to choose, the swiss voted against this discrimination too, the minarets is just an excuse for all the rules muslims have, and is not compatible with democraty

I think stoning homosexuals is illegal in Israel, a free, liberal, secular and democratic country, rigt? Kosher slaughter is a cruel practice, minarets are the symbol of a political ideology called Islam. There are limits to "religous" freedom.

If one really knows the history of a country one can find ?anything that supports his good or bad opinion concerning it. Prof. Avineri mentions that the Swiss constitution dates ?from 1874 and that the recent vote was a referendum. As a ?matter of fact, the constitution stems from 1848 ( only ?revised on 1874 ) and the vote was over an initiative. ? ? One should also be aware to the meaning of Art. 15 of the ?constitution. It guarantees freedom of belief and conscience, ?choice of confession etc. It does not imply that religious laws ?stand above the laws of the country. The secular state ?overrules any other authority.? Not only Jewish but all religious organizations strongly opposed ?the initiative, but most of my Jewish friends admitted voting ???yes?. Is it not better, to get an unbiased feedback from the ?people than a political correct statement from politicians? ?The question behind the vote is: ?What is the relation between ?Islam and state??

This doesn't mean the emigrant must adopt a different religion, but neither should he/she force the natives to forgo their traditions and accept new aggressive religious mores. In any case, what is acceptable and what not is the prerogative of the natives. Obviously, a church, mosque, or synagogue is absolutely necessary. But other things, normaly depend upon the tastes of the autochtonous. And that is how it should be, take it or leave it. After all, one can live quite well and in peace without kosher slaughter or minarets...

Like it or not, Challah and Shechita are linked together. The law outlaws or permits both. Some countries were allowing Shechita but the hygienic standards of the Challal people forced them to close both. As for antisemitic propaganda that Shechita is somehow cruel, the person obviously hasn't read the scientific literature. Incidently my article on the physiology of shechita was translated into French by the Challal society of southern france.

In most countries that abolished capital punishment, executions would be restituted if put to the population at large. If all policies are decided by referenda, the selection of officials should depend not on their qualifications or ability to govern but on their ability to faithfully carry out the instructions of the population. Population = boss, elected official = servant. Referenda = mob rule? The Swiss were not offered the possibility of limiting the height of minarets, the options were a straight yes or no. A survey of people who voted no to minarets might be revelatory. There are ways of ensuring that slaughter is as humane as possible, but no method is in itself better than any other. Hanging cattle upside down on a moving line and hitting their heads one by one before cutting their throats is no more humane than swiftly cutting their jugular with a smooth knife. Either allow it or don't. If you don't like slaughter, don't eat meat.

Why make referendum on the subject that interest just less than 5% for the population. how minaret can affect day to day life of swiss sitizen when the majority will have no contact with any minaret. make public discussion around the area where they are ib contact with a mosque..change the architecture if needed. But don t ban a minaret!! you can build any monument on bordel or cabaret or else but for a mosque No minaret!!!! indeed it s racist decision!!!

By the way and very interestengly, the referendum vote was decided by the support of women. In Europe there is backlash against multiculturalism and that is a welcome development. Maybe in Switzerland this backlash is advanced in a ungly way. However, the basic line to follwo is that precisely in order to protect a multiethnic society you have to disentangle multiethnicity from multiculturalism. Only under a republican democratic nation, blacks, green, yellow, mellow could be integrated. Multiculturalism desintegrates, creates animosities, and finally sparks the influence of radical right thugs.

I don't have problem with popular and democratic vote. For me, the real problem that comes out of this vote has nothing to do with minarets, religion or cultural issues. It has to do with democracy and human rights. Contrary to our earlier believe that the more democratic a nation is the more it repsects human rights is not a correct one. Here, article 18 of the universal declaration of human rights, were put aside through a popular and democratic vote. I can see the flood gates opening now, any state can now see fit to do away what it does not want through a democratic vote. Swiss are just following the recent Uganda's legislation that meted the death sentence the minority groups (gays/lesbians) in Uganda.

Heather, the Muslims did infact came to our aid when our rights were curtailed during the Spanish Inquisition. The Spandiards forced the Jews who lived there to convert to Christianity, and when some Jews did that out of fear, the Spandiards did not believe them, so started that famous inquistion. The Jews were given two choices, confess to false conversion and die by hanging or don't confess and die by burning. The real outcome of the inquistion was in reality the choice of which type of death (hanging or burning). The Muslims, especially the Ottoman Empire opened their doors for a mass immigration of Jews to present day Istanbul Turkey. In fact the Emperor made many of the high ranking jewish judges part of his advisory council. Don't believe me, just research it and find out. It is true that there are many issues between Arabs and Israels, but remember, Islam as a religion is not hegemonic and Africans, Asians, Europeans with different languages & cultures adhere to it.

The referendum has certain disadvantages as described in the article. But the advantages outweigh by far the disadvantages. This is the only country where every person at voting age has the legal possibility to influence with his/her vote government decisions or initiate a new law. By the way the Swiss constitution was introduced not in 1874 but in 1848. In 1866 and 1874 revisions were made and only then the Jews were completely equal citizens

for the simple fact: What is remotely new or surprising about this? Since news is supposed to be new, and this is not, it shouldn't be here. The Swiss are the Swiss - this perfect neutral people in Central Europe who can do no wrong.

...the right for Christians, Jews, Hindus and those of all other faiths to freely practice their religion in Islamic countries? Does that even exist as a concept? The Jews of Switzerland have found ways to circumvent the Swiss ban on Kosher slaughter; the Muslims will just have to find their own way.

Heather, read Tom Segev's book, "Among the Righteous." It only contains dozens of examples from the 20th Century.

The welcome of immigrants is Israël, specially muslim ones or coloured jews, is obviously far better in Israël than in Switzerland.

things can change quickly even in switzerland.we now have the top three political office in switzerland in women`s hands and have already had a woman jewish president herethat puts us atleast even or ahead iof israel.kosher killing was outlawed because the swiss have the stictist animal protection laws in europe and not for any religious reason.i am a jew living in switzerland and have never been shown any predjudice in over 37 years here. i voted aginst the minaret initative but this vote was not really against the building of these objects but more or less the basic fear of being overrun by all that is foreign here.the political right played this fear to the utmost and won because of it. a muslim can still practice his religion freely just like we jews.

Heather stated that Muslims never reached out to Jews. That's false. The Turks invited European Jews to come live in peace in the empire. They lived much better in the Middle East that welcomed Ashkenazim and Sephardim of Europe who often left Europe for various areas dominated by Muslims. This is a fact. Also, Saladdin was a friend of Maimonides and was kind to Jews and had some go and live in Jerusalem afer defeating Crusaders. So the idea that Muslims never showed kindness to Jews is not true.

I have ex-Israeli friends in Switzerland who voted AGAINST the minarets, along with probably the entire Jewish community.

Is it first and foremost a bastion of Swiss culture, or a liberal society? Pork was banned in several Israeli cities until a 2004 court decision (and butchers still have to respect local neighborhood opinion). Yitzhak Shamir's government tried to ban pork altogether. Many Muslim countries make it difficult (or impossible) to build churches. And forget pork. Is this really so different from Switzerland? Unless one thinks that Europeans and only Europeans must be liberal, and others are free to abridge liberties to suit the local culture.

Are you having difficulties comprehending the article? Where does it say it's OK to "screw the Muslems"? Jews opposed the ban on the minarets.

should at least respect the majority's voice that was decided in a democratic vote. You don't like it? Then move to Iran.

It's ok when they screw the Muslims..but it's not OK when it screws the Jews. Anyway, everyone knows it's only for the extra money all that 'K' costs more...Is God really concerned or the Rabbi? Hahahaaa....it's so typical... TATA

What do mosque minarets and kosher slaughter have in common askes Shlomo Avineri. "What do mosque minarets and kosher slaughter have in common? Both are banned in Switzerland, a free, liberal, secular and democratic country." Is his reply. And this is true. So what? Did not Israelis cheer the referendum? Had they not forgotten the previous ban? So one religions prefers the erection of symbolic phallus at their houses of worship - you know steeples upon churches. . . . The Swiss are a very restrained people and have managed a mult-cultural society on the basis of restraint. How can I argue against success and in favor of religion?

Hasan Cemal, the descendant of one of the major perpetrators to the Armenian genocide in Turkey, is apologizing as far as I can tell, ran across a stone in Switzerland re: Calvin "forgive our sins". All Turks are concentrating on Switzerland now. I can tell him Calvinism was responsible for manifest destiny, white man's burden and american exceptionalism in the USA. The Indians are the ones that suffered the most from this kind of thinking. Calvin was in Geneva. I doubt this theocrat would apologize for anything bigoted; however, go ahead Turkey and apologize to the Armenians and we can keep apologizing to each other for all our sins. However, I am sure bigots won't really apologize for their sins.

Swiss cheese is full of holes. Swiss brain is full of holes. This is the personality of a country of racists.

Such alien foreignness. Kosher food and Minarets. After all there were four (4) Mosques in the whole country with Minarets. And I guess a bullet or sledge hammer to the head is considered a kindness to a cow. Question - Is it OK to build a tower not attached to a mosque? They have one at a brewery in Germany.

.. over a century apart. Everyone knows why the Swiss and every other European country if given the chance would ban minarets and mosques for that matter. Muslim strength or dominance represents a threat because Arab/Muslim culture is commonly led by extremists (or hasn't the writer read newspapers for 10 years?) There are no dark forces at work here - just a desire to protect unlike the ban on kosher slaughter which was mainly just anti-semitic.

When did Muslims ever come to the aid of us Jews when our rights were curtailed? We should worry about ourselves for once. No else is.

... a dude in lederhosen and a feather in his alpine hat, leading his blond braided milkmaid woman across the hills, pushing a wheelbarrow filled with chocolate and cuckoo clocks. I go to Saudi Arabia when I want to see some husky, robed executioner loping off the head of some poor girl in the public square accused of letting her ankle be seen. What is the point of travel when every destination brings you the same sights? Maybe Switzerland finally noticed there are now more mosques in Holland than windmills.

many would be happy to see it banned in all western countries (same for halal slaughter). There's no reason whatsoever to maintain archaic laws put forth at a time before sensibilities about animal suffering were raised. It's the orthodox jews that need to change not the swiss. besides, banning kosher slaughter (a great idea - one that israel will do well to emulate) does not discriminate against regular jews - only against ultra-orthodox sects. And many don't agree that these sects are even all that jewish. Of course, while I'm at it - I wish we humans stopped eating the flesh of living things altogether. Hopefully, some day that would happen.