Welcome involvement

I'm sorry that we disagree on Bush...

You're using a word that you have no familiarity with---When you tell the truth I wouldn't argue, however, truth isn't in your lexicon--Are you now saying that you are a "Fellow Jew"??--I had fellow from MN that said the very same thing a couple of weeks ago, then he morphed into a Catholic in another of his posts---You will notice, any of your posts that I retrieved and used, clearly indicated that you and truth were strangers---I have more, want to see them??

its really pointless to discuss it any further here...or to explain my opinion or to make it clear to you... it entails too much and there's not enough room... so you may consider me naive as much as you'd like... just keep one thing in mind as you do: you can't see through my eyes... nor can you see into my mind... any better than you can into his... and so your judgement is what you believe... about him or me or anything... based on the scope of your perception... which leaves many things unheard and unseen... that the media witholds for their own animosity...just as it does the palestinian grief. alas...poor me; as naive as i can be... but with eyes that can still see...

but before making your accusations towards me... you really do need to take a close look at how you pick and chose his words carefully to twist his intent and give it your own meaning... AND... how straight down the line you steadfastly ignore EVERYTHING that jesus said with the message he brought about the NEW covenant with god that on the eve of his death he celebrated by a breaking of bread among his brethren... there's no such thing as human perfection; and human righteousness simply does NOT exist!

you're a breath of bad air. but just for the record; your inane attempts to cast doubt on my integrity serve only to enthuse those closed minds that think like you and who accuse of lying ANYONE that questions their ignorant views...even they who are fellow jews...

Eric, I hope to goodness that you're right about Bush and Iran. "he`s exremely naive and put his trust in the wrong people...which is what`s led to the quagmire in iraq and the slippage in afghanistan" That should show all too well that a person such as you describe should not be in charge of anything, let alone leader of the most powerful country in the world. "Extremely naive" doesn't excuse him or the people who voted for him...and "put his trust in the wrong people", if that is what he's done, has led to disaster for our country. But I think he's far beyond naive...even a naive person would be able to see, after Iraq, that he's not equal for his job and that he put his trust in the wrong people. It ought to be obvious to the most naive of people. But if you saw him on tv the other night, it seems as if he has not the slightest idea of what he's done to his country; there he was, smiling and making cutesy faces, smug and pleased with himself as if we'd won a victory..

you're making God a liar then.

Tje point I'm making that you can't be trusted or taken at your word---Just as soon as I see one of your posts, it immediately becomes suspect, and my suspicions are most always justified---I'll post a few more, as soon as I get the chance---Will give you something to look forward to---

bush has no intention of attacking iran... he's never once said it, suggested it, implied it, threatened it. don't let the media distort your perception... it's the media that's taken that ball and run with it...not the president... and virtually every time he's even discussed it has been in response to the media. and the only responses he's given to the media is that "we have no plans to attack iran"...or "we're not ruling out any options"... the latter of which is used to respond to hardpressed questions concerning iran's refusal to stop its nuclear ambitions... and that's just a matter of playing "poker" in a situation where diplomatic pressure is being applied. bush is not the fiend you perceive him to be; but he's exremely naive and put his trust in the wrong people...which is what's led to the quagmire in iraq and the slippage in afghanistan. believe it or not, what we're doing in iraq now is what was needed initially. too detailed to explain here...

but what point you were trying to make is lost to me... anything taken out of context can be ventured as proof of just about anything... what's even worse is when it's offered as proof for which no one else has a clue... but i AM happy for you, ben...if its done so for you...

is that i've never had any trouble with anything or anyone you mention...

It's about time that Israel stopped taking land and began to think about dividing the land more fairly. Even the 28 percent (the West Bank, Gaza, & East Jerusalem) isn't fair, but agreeing to the terms of the Arab Peace Initiative of 2002 is the place to go if Israel ever wants peace with its neighbors.

I knew it wasn't you---Just pointing out that that very black pot (YS) shouldn't call any kettle black---

I was not the person talking about transparent aliases, that was Yaakov, and I asked him in a post what he meant by it. Silvienne is my own given name as I could prove easily enough to you but not on talkbacks.

Yes, I am 28, but I don't have the guts or the stamina or the resolve required for the military... Which is why I respect people who do serve.

is second only to the Medal of Honor---If Bush is a "born Again" his concern for Israel is genuine, except it has the usual "born again" motive, as a precursor to the messiah, etc--- There's no such thing as a free gift, it always has strings---In case you didn't know it, you could inspire from within---The Military is accepting volunteers under 40---I think you told me you were 28---

What I mean is quite simple. "United Nations General Assembly Resolution 273 (III), May 11, 1949. "The General Assembly, Acting in discharge of its functions under Article 4 of the Charter and rule 125 of its rules of procedure, 1. Decides that Israel is a peace-loving State which accepts the OBLIGATIONS contained in the Charter and is able and willing to carry out those obligations; 2. Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations." www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/unga273.html That day, the State of Israel was admitted as a full member of the UNO, with all the RIGHTS, but also the OBLIGATIONS that go with it. The Jewish people has no obligations whatsoever, except of course to the universal values (or for the believers - to the Almighty), and no more rights than any other people. This what I meant. Zionism is about giving the Jews a homeland of their own, not a Crusade to redempt the Holy Land from the unbelievers. As much as it may chagrin you.

"I had a fellow in my unit, when I was in the American army, he was a total drunk...However, he had the Silver Star, and was respected for it and allowed a lot of leeway because of that medal---I saw him stagger down the hallway, drunk as a skunk" He'd earned that Silver Star for valor in combat, isn't that right...and I'd salute him myself for that, whether he was drunk or not. Because I respect what he'd done.That's the thing; I don't respect what Bush's done in Iraq, and I don't respect him for letting Afghanistan slide so much that bin Laden is free and the Taliban is back. I don't respect his fear-mongering tactics; just tonight I heard him say "we want to avoid WW3"..that is a plain attempt to frighten Americans, into what, his plan to attack Iran? I don't even believe his apparent concern about Israel is genuine; I think he'd use any country's name to try to push us into war with Iran. In fact, sometimes, I don't think he's even rational. But yes, his office gets the respect.

talk about transparent aliases, the name you use isn't yours---In case you didn't know it, Sullivan's first name isn't Yaakov, he adopted it to give a semblance of some sort of Jewishness, though we all know he's a fraud--- As a matter of facts he's so genuine that he uses a New York City address although he lives in Brooklyn, which ia a Borough, not in the city itself---Traitors are despised in all peoples, he especially because the pretends to be Jewish..

What I mean is quite simple. "United Nations General Assembly Resolution 273 (III), May 11, 1949. "The General Assembly, Acting in discharge of its functions under Article 4 of the Charter and rule 125 of its rules of procedure, 1. Decides that Israel is a peace-loving State which accepts the OBLIGATIONS contained in the Charter and is able and willing to carry out those obligations; 2. Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations." www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/unga273.html That day, the State of Israel was admitted as a full member of the UNO, with all the RIGHTS, but also the OBLIGATIONS that go with it. The Jewish people has no obligations whatsoever, except of course to the universal values (or for the believers - to the Almighty), and no more rights than any other people. This what I meant. Zionism is about giving the Jews a homeland of their own, not a Crusade to redempt the Holy Land from the unbelievers. As much as it may chagrin you.

Since you've never been in the Military, you're unaware of protocol---It's the uniform or office that get's saluted, not the man--- Case in point, a soldier has the Medal of Honor, a General will throw him the salute, because he's wearing the medal---Normally the lower rank salutes the higher one, however, when the lower rank wears that medal, his medal is saluted---Same thing with the President, regardless of what you or I may feel about him, his office gets the respect, although, he personally may not, in your opinion, deserve it---This isn't a banana republic, the man completes his term/s and is replaced---That's what make us so much different from a Monarchy, filled with useless slugs or a dictatorship, that rules by force of arms---I had a fellow in my unit, when I was in the American army, he was a total drunk...However, he had the Silver Star, and was respected for it and allowed a lot of leeway because of that medal---I saw him stagger down the hallway, drunk as a skunk--

Not only is the Palestinian occupation of Israel illegal under Koranic Law it is illegal under international law. The arbitrary division of Palestine into two states , Jordan and Israel , violated the Treaty Of San Remo , the Treaty of Versaille and the founding Charter of League of Nations. All of which were supported and codified with Arab representation. The fact that Jordan has refused to repatriate its own countrymen is at the root of the conflict. In 1976 the King of Jordan wanted to rename his country Palestine. Arafat and intransigent Arab states refused to support the change. The April 1976 issue of LeMonde published and conducted conducted the interview. Those who seek a just and lasting solution must educate themselves to the historical truth.

Thanks for your post. I didn't think I'd see Ben putting my comments down in favour of ChanahS, but I suppose I've got to face the reason why. What did you mean by saying, you suspected it all along? Suspected what all along?

"This from one who writes under a transparent alias" ????

Two of the south african posters used the racist slurs that have been discussed.

Yes indeed. The real drama is not yet unfold. All that we see now the noise of the high wind. The rain and the deluge will follow. What Israel must do pray and stregthen the faith in her. If land is divided the land will divide again. G-d is testing us and waiting to behold the strength of our faith. We haven't seen it all. How we could have ? But, we are there. Isn't that a sign ? From where all we came it must be a great sign ! Our enemies will live in barren land and Israel will bloom. We must all remember the last word is the Word of G-d. The end is only when G-d spoken. Am-Israel-Hay that is where the book is open and that is where the book closed.

What is???!!

LOL!

I have no idea of where it was now but you said to me, approx. "Silvienne, a little more respect please" in the title...then approx. "whatever you may think of him he is president and deserves respect for his office" with which I actually agreed.

Ben Jabo, I've seen you applaud posts you think are good. TonyL, people being called idiots does not compare to people being called, and I quote, "coondune, sandmonkey, dirty arab, paki, macacca" So, I don't need to tell you what you can do, or do I? Stop reading whatever I write, and you won't have a hernia over it.

Thanks for your posts. I too believe in the Two State Solution, but have come to believe that Israel does not want it, despite what is said, because definite borders would prevent Israel from stealing any more Palestinian land or building any more settlements on Palestinian land. I think that if Israel truly wanted the two states, they'd be in place by now...America our country wants to see peace in this region of the Middle East. So, sadly enough, I think Israel will just keep talking, promising to remove outposts etc, and nothing will be done for the Palestinians. Regards

Mark Lincoln. You are an enigma that no science breaks its code. Full of knowledge and rubbish.As you yourself said it once,as I remember;'signify nothing'. The only nation in History that desereves support and even love and admiration is Israel. The Jewish State. The Symbol of Defiance and Truth. The mirror that refects the reality of Humanity. Its mistakes,if any, must be acceptd. Its short comings,if any, must be welcome. Its backbone is pure Zionism.Let the Arab nations or any other nation,removed from the Atlas, there are many to replace them; but let one single village in Israel removed from the map, and the World will be a poorer place. Who would dare or be savage enugh to touch or do any harm to the only monument for the greatest story of human defiance and survival ? Certainly not you Mr Mark Lincoln or the midgets sitting like mice in Gaza.

"A vast Mahdi army, a sea of Islamic extremist forces" This is what you're counting on? You can't even get the Gazans to stop fighting each other!

You've said this many a time, only to be proven false and ridiculous---Your rhymes don't camouflage your inability to comprehend---As a refresher, here's some of what has gone before-- rest unassured, I have lot's more::: "Hamas seizes final Fatah-run security compound in Gaza City Talkback Title: #348-2 Eric - just for you Name: * BEN JABO City: USA State: Unlike yourself, I don`t spout hatred, just facts. Insofar as Daffy Dutch, SHE "VOLUNTEERED" HER SERVICES AS A HUMAN SHIELD & RENEGED ON HER PROMISE. I didn`t recruit her or entice her in any shape manner or forum. You`re just too filled with bile to appreciate what transpired. I forgot to mention, my U.S. service number was prefixed with "RA". Check your local recruiter, he`ll try and explain to you what the prefix means. Keep on writing, you`ll keep on proving how ignorant you really are

Try concentrating on the Middle East, a situation that you're very far from understanding---Why traipse off to South Africe and involve yourself again in something that seems to be over your head---

It was established as the Jewish state of Israel and it had a small Arab section. Being part of the UN was for politics and to work with other nations to help solve their problems and to work out peaceful solutions. That nation is made up of a certain group of people that still have an everlasting covenant and that won't ever change and God will work the covenant and He will be faithful not to break it.....I heard a preacher in the us said,"let the usa get out of the un."...most countries in the un are anti-jews.....if the jewish people are not part of the un as you said........good for them.

you don't believe when God said in His Word that He would punish all nations that part His land?I know that the hebrews/israelites/jews made a terrible mistake,but God punished them.deuteronomy 11:27 a blessing,if ye obey the commmandments of the Lord your God,which I command you this day.[28]and a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God.......the verses you mentioned are God rebuking Israel for their backsliding and urging them to get right,but that doesn't erase the everlasting covenant that he made with abraham and confirmed through isaac concerning their land..........you sound like janice.....

From an Israeli scholar: "Mr. Prime Minister [Menahem Begin], with all due respect to the head of the government and the fellow historian, allow me to inform you on the basis of decades of research into the history of nationalism, that the striving to dominate and rule, at the end of the twentieth century, a hostile foreign population which is different in its language, history, culture, religion, national consciousness and aspirations, is like the attempt to revive feudalism. The question is not a moral one. The project is not practically possible, nor is it worth the price - as France, for example, learned in Algeria. (...) (Jacob Talmon, 1980) www.fmep.org/analysis/articles/prophetic_message.html Jacob Leib Talmon (1916-1980) was Professor of Modern History at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He was born in Poland, into an orthodox Jewish family, and left in 1934 to study at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He received the Israel Prize in 1957. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Talmon

"The promised land belongs to them [the Jewish People], and not to anybody else." (maria) How very true! No doubt at all about that. Eretz-Israel is our sacred ancestral land, and it has stayed so until this very day, even under the Romans, Byzantines, Persians, Seljuks, Crusaders, Mongols, and the Mamelukes, and the Turks, and the British, and the Jordanians. I don't know about your father, but this is what mine taught me and what his own father told him. There is no reason Eretz-Israel should ever cease to be the sacred ancestral land of the Jewish people, even when divided between the state of Israel and the Palestinians. Just in case nobody has told you yet: Israel is a member of the UN. The Jewish People is not. At least, not yet.

"Janice claims to be a Jew, but she's against her own people." (maria) No wonder. After all, one can find peoples claiming to be Jews in very strange places. "British Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks set off a storm of controversy in mostly right-wing British Jewish circles Tuesday, after he told The Guardian newspaper that the ME conflict has forced Israel to adopt a stance that conflicts with the ideals of Judaism. Sacks said that the current situation in Israel has caused the country to adopt a stance 'incompatible' with the 'deepest ideals' of Judaism and that the current Palestinian conflict is corrupting Israeli culture." Haaretz, August 28, 2002.

"God is very serious about not dividing Israel and Jerusalem." (maria) Is this what he told you? Strange. I heard him say something completely different. Yirmiyahu 2: 22. For if you wash with natron and use much soap, your iniquity is stained before Me, says the Lord God. 26. As the shame of a thief when he is found out, so have the house of Israel been ashamed; they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets. 33. How you adorn your way to seek love! Verily, even to the most evil you accustomed your ways. 34. Also in your skirts is found the blood of the souls of the innocent poor; you did not find them breaking in, but for all these. 35. And you said, "But I am innocent, surely His wrath has gone away from me." Behold, I contend with you concerning because you say, "I have not sinned." Is it possible that he is telling what everyone is willing to hear? It would not be the first time.

The occupation makes us less safe, not more. It increases our chances of being dead as you put it. A viable economy and chance of materially-improving lives for the Palestinians is the best chance we have for peace. I don't claim to speak for anyone else, but it is the case that there is a majority for withdrawal, and this was true even during the worst times of the intefada. Obviously people living outside the Green Line will be more likely to support a continuation of the occupation, or they wouldn't live there, but they are not the majority. Why the views of Tel Aviv residents should count for less than anyone else's is beyond me. Greater Tel Aviv - let's say the Gush Dan - is the most important part of the country economically. In addition, the number of people unwilling to send their children to combat roles in the army to maintain roadblocks etc is growing, whether you support their point of view or not.

#4 Labhras & Silvienne Jewish university students, in particular, vehemently opposed the apartheid movement. Jews, in fact, were largely represented in the percentage of white citizens who were arrested for anti-apartheid protests. A large proportion of Jews were also involved in organizations such as The Springbrook Legion, The Torch Commando, and the Black Sash. These anti-apartheid organizations led protests that were both active (ie. marching through the streets with torches) and passive (ie. standing silently in black). Other Jews sought to teach, train, and include black citizens in South African society. Ian Bernhardt lived in Johannesburg and led the Union of South African Artists in which he helped teach and protect black artists. Jews could be found in the majority of anti-apartheid organizations and protests throughout the apartheid regime. You Two should apologies if you had any sincere bone in your body!

Labhras & Silvienne You two, are two id***s if I may say, You really haven?t a clew of the role Jews had in Anti-Apartheid activities, Although they were a small community they are the ones who provided humanitarian assistance for black communities. Ina Perlman founded "Operation Hunger", an organization that reached two million South African blacks. Influenced by skills learned in Israel, the South African Union of Jewish Women (UJW) developed outreach programs in black townships: they focused on teacher training and pre-school development and even sponsored a few black South African teacher visits to Israel. UJW also created a multiracial youth group and engaged in the Women's National Coalition. The group was the first to import black dolls from the United States so that children might have a choice. Continued #2

#3 Labhras & Silvienne, An eye opener for you, One of the great leaders of the anti-Apartheid movement, Nelson Mandela, wrote this about Jews in South Africas: ?I have found Jews to be more broadminded than most whites on issues of race and politics, perhaps because they themselves have historically been victims of prejudice." Mandela's defence attorney, Isie Maisels, was Jewish. If you have any sensible bone in your body you would apologies to Margie and ChanahS!

#2 No one is piggy banking nothing, you two should be ashamed of yourselves! The black community in South Africa has not done anything to offend the Jews so the Jews helped them with all their hart potting themselves at enormous risks. On the other hand the So-Called Palestinians in Gaza and WB have been violently protesting against Israel, since the year 1987 when the Intefada started so don?t expect the same South African Jews to be so generous as they were in South Africa, this are different situations! People are killed here in the ME on both sides of the border of Israel; so don?t expect Jews to be sympathetic to the Palestinians in WB and Gaza, as you don?t expect Palestinians to be sympathetic to the Jews on the Israeli side! Maybe if your friends the So-Called Palestinians of WB and Gaza had protested peacefully as Mahatma Gandhi in India, or the Blacks in South Africa, the same South African Jews would have helped them with all their sincere generosity!

it really is just a game for you, after all... well let me tell you sir that you've got a alot of gall... saying what you did to silvienne... as if her comments lacked worth... YOU may not acknowledge the comments of others... except to malign and ridicule... but personally i DO... and please tell ben, that i'm boring, too... so i can say that coming from a worn out record like you... ...oh never mind!

DORIS, YOUR HYPOCRISY SHOWS IN EVERY POST! NO AGREEMENT OF APPEASEMENT AND BEING CZECHOSLOVAKIA IN 1938 WILL RUN! IF RICE DOESNT STUDY HISTORY SHE IS PLAYING ! FIRST PRINCIPLE IS RECOGNITION OF ISRAEL BY ALL MUSLIM COUNTRIES ! WITHOUT IT IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN !

"you all are in a Israeli newspaper, meant for Israeli or jews oversea" I don't think the UK Guardian or Telegraph online would regard themselves as being meant for "Brits or Brits ovreseas". They are world media, offering news and opinions to the entire world. That's the joy of the internet. Haaretz is exactly the same, a world medium, and a very fine one, a credit to Israel and a major force for democracy and freedom of speech.

Are you sure you didnt miss something this time around? Whhat about the worshipping statues? you forgot that one this time. This from one who writes under a transparent alias, knows nothing about what he writes, or who, but like his stunted growth of reason, all he ever ddoes is try to defeat good argument with sui generis attacks. Talk about failure!

The Israelis you cite are still Israelis with differing political views. They still consider Israel to be their home. They serve in the armed forces and are devoted to the good of the country. I support them and consider that they have every right to express opinions on their country, as you do on yours. If you don't want to be an Israeli, that's your business. You seem to consider yourself admirable for rejecting something you don't know and don't need and invite our praise for this negative attitude.

But it is most likely that all of these hacks are really the same person. They have done this of course before and the best response is no response. Thank you for your postings.

Ms Janice, Say you visit your arab neighbour daily uninvited. You daily commend on their religion, their government, and mock their newspaper headlines daily. Then, your neighbour responses back. Finally, you conclude that your neighbour is full of anger, full of hatred, and so blind. ummm.......... no matter how i disagree with arabs, i don't go to their sites daily, and poked daily into their headlines. Some very sick ones even managed to be the very first few to post/scold in any talkback. you all are in a Israeli newspaper, meant for Israeli or jews oversea, concerning Israel affairs, and Haaretz is very kind to post any thing antiIsrael you fire over. After scolding them daily, what kind of response do you expect? see these hyperbolic words: expel? starve? humiliate? some even call jews pig?... Actually Kath is one of e funniest soul, i don't agree with her Bible view, but i like her posts, don't find anger/hatred/blind, in fact she portray wisdom in her cool manner. be nice.

Now that's racist!

"Have you and Margie got many disciples over there on the Olive Branch admiringly watching you salivating about the thought of killing millions of Palestinians?' That's disgusting of you. I never thought you would stoop so low. Is that what you really think?

The Jews haven't declared a Jewish state in NYC either and there are a great deal more of them there than there were Warsaw.

Haaretz, Don't you think it would have been far more appropriate for Condoleezza Rice to have re-sponded to Israeli officials with their gloomy forecast on the government's ability to survive territorial conmcessions and a compromise on Jerusalem with the the final line from Clark Gable in Gone With Wind: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a-dam! That was "dam" not "damn", damn it! " Dutch

"By the way who will the warring parties be? Israel & whom?" A vast Mahdi army, a sea of Islamic extremist forces, from Egypt to Syria to Lebanon to Jordan to Iraq to Iran, with Israel's final insurance stock of nukes rendered unusable by an Iran deterrent (hence Israel's frantic attempts to persuade the world to whack Iran on its behalf).

"Jewish ascendancy"

You're talking about Joe Slovo of course. There are so many more names that are so familiar who played with fire for the sake of the down trodden.

We could be related. I just wanted to know whether you had had any relatives in Europe in the late 1930s.

Silvienne, thanks for your posting. I believe that when I defend the Palestinians I also show them that not all Jews want to deprive them of a right to a homeland, that not all Jews favor their oppression, that all Jews are not racists. Before I am an American, a Jew, a woman, I am a human being who believes that everyone deserves human rights and that the rights of one group of people can never trump the human rights of another group. Sadly, I believe that every day in every way Israel is violating the human rights of the people who once dwelled peacefully on the land that is now Israel. That land can and must be shared. I do not believe that the Jews should be forced to leave and I do not believe that the Palestinians should be forced to leave. To continue the status quo is only to continue the madness. Regards

"My words may be blurred....What can one say Chaim???" Say l'Chaim, Kath', and have another drink.

jeremiah 30:15 all they that devour thee shall be devoured;and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey....the gentiles have gotten their material blessings from the jew.human society is impossible without some observance of the 10 commandments,and the prosperity of a nation increases with the degree of its observance of the 10 commandments.the bible teaches in romans 11 and acts 15,that all the gentiles will not be converted until after the conversion of israel.human history revolves around the jew.

'A lot of serious truth' Truth.PLEASE and my other post Please and thanks.

trouble with God and trouble with the terrorists..........trouble with dry heat,cactus,sandstorms[white sands in the desert] and tumbleweeds.

Your endless backslapping and commenting on what others wrote isn`t contributing---You`re just cheerleading, not playing... Hello BEN, I watched the latest part of this post starring Silvienne & wrote something to that effect (cheerleading I meant). just from the observation standpoint, she can called peopel idiots, I could not have come close. But as long as someone pointed out-I am satisfied.

the snake lying hidden in the grass with a cause that remains unseen which calls not for israel to last but for it to meet its demise ultimately... but alas...its not mine to choose your allies... nor is it mine to malign the prophecy it seeks... your choices are made with open eyes... and with THAT i've said my piece... except for one other thing...please recall to mind... a comment posted about "god's punishment" to america... oh how sweet it is! a direct quote almost... from the same man who proclaimed sharon's being stricken ans lying comatose; "as an of god" to punish him for withdrawing from the gaza. know the heart that you sleep with... and above all else know its purpose! have a nice day, lady kath'...

Your endless backslapping and commenting on what others wrote isn't contributing---You're just cheerleading, not playing---

It is great to see that all the divergent voices agree--there will be no peace in our time. This is because George Bush is a warmonger, Israel is so evil that they continue to refuse to commit national suicide, Abbas is weak and corrupt, only Hamas can represent palestinians and US/Israel govt won't talk to this lovable bunch of terrorists, Olmert is an idiot and almost as evil as Bush, and Rice is just a silly woman, etc, etc. Ibrahim, the palestinian, writes from Michigan about how the palestinians have nowhere to go and must stay in palestine(that's funny!!!). Tosefta says Hamas remains on a "moderating trajectory" (even funnier!!) and Mark Lincoln hates Bush because he's against gay marriage. So let's all pack it in and let the palestinians remain in misery for another 8 years until the end of President Hilary Clinton's second term, when her special envoy, Al Gore, can bring peace to the middle east and become the first two-time Nobel peace price winner.

Pls send me copies of what you're stating---

Thank you for writing such good posts defending the Palestinian people.

Show us one country that continues to practice the policy of colonization of the land belonging to another people. Except Israel, of course.

dam, menachem... what part of never-never land are YOU from?

Wouldn't you have thought, after taking their country into a pointless war in Iraq that cannot be won, Bush&Cheney would be at least hesitant to do it again in Iran? Not them...unless Congress can stop them, they'll be at it again...and to think, so eager for wars are they, yet neither of them ever served one day in combat. Cheney obtained five deferrments to avoid Vietnam and Bush's family bought his way into the National Guard, safe from Vietnam. Regards

Howdy Jeff, Just like the Iraq war, the Vietnam war was built on lies. I remember hearing the propaganda that if we don't stop them there all of Southeast Asia will fall to the Communists and we will have to fight them on our shores. We lost a war we had no business being in in the first place. I'm glad that you returned, hopefully in good shape, but 58,000 other Americans did not and many thousands died even after Nixon acknowledged in private conversations that the war was lost. Perhaps upwards of 2 million Vietnamese died as well. How much better it would have been had everyone refused to go. The jails were not big enough to contain every soldier who had the courage to say "hell no, I won't go." In Israel the refusniks also face jail time and many of them have served time in Israeli prisons.

Your Vietnam service is something to be proud of. Although, as you say, the Vietnam war was "stupid to begin with" you did your duty honourably. The Israeli Refuseniks are not the only soldiers of the IDF refusing orders. Remember the orthodox IDF who refused to take part in removing the illegal settler families in Hebron? If ever the WB settlements were to be dismantled, goodness knows how it would be done.

Ms. Rice does not seem to notice that the Palestinins are stating their demands without offering anything in return such as a cessation of suicide bombing and terririst attacks

Its time to change your diaper before your stench kills everyone.

Clickfool, I too eagerly await Bush's departure & Olmert's as well for that matter. But do you seriously believe the Israeli's don't make real concessions? Was Sinai to Eqypt not serious?Barak's offer to Arafat not serious? Unilateral exodus from Gaza not serious? True, the latter two were to the PA whom you don't regard, but who else was there? I don't think war is the answer & can't believe you do either. By the way who will the warring parties be? Israel & whom?

I should have guessed ChanahS was another south african apartheid apologist judging from her furious response to me about Margie being south african, complete with a phrase I didn't use, "white supremecy". ChanahS also uses the very oldest, worn-thin-by-useage insult known to man, namely, that of claiming that your adversary "knows nothing"! That piece of abuse may have been productive in, perhaps, 1501, but now it's outdated. As you say, these particular south africans are not likely to have been the ones protesting apartheid in SA. Their arrogance towards the posters and Haaretz itself ("Haaretz, put out my post!) shows that much at least. Regards

and yes it's me; here once again with a few words i'm compelled to spin for whatever my words may ever be worth to say that your words have proven yours! and thanks for your perception with which i agree i hope that she can swing it for the prosperity of all...

SD: "But that is EXACTLY the point being made:the palestinians have NO practical clout: they are not currently a viable entity." You don't even know why Israel refused recognition in 1988, do you? SD: "It requires consensus." Reached in 1993, when even the ISRAELIS consented to the PLO representing the Pals. Did the Pals no good at all. SD: "It requires representative leadership." Who elected Ben Gurion to stand up and declare the State of Israel in 1948? SD: "It requires a constitution." So where is Israel's constitution????? SD: "A parliament." Where was Israel's in 1948? A Pal parliament was created in 1993; Israel keeps arresting the parliamentarians. SD: "It requires laws about kidnapping, about shelling school children, about provoking its neighbours. It requires infrastructure." The Pals built that infrastructure, and set up those laws, and all undermined by Israel refusal to carry out its obligations under Olso.

All your points are evry valid Tony.Let me say,that Israel can reach an official agreement with the pals but make implementaion dependant on the full disarming of the gangs.If this step is not completed then their can of course be no withdrawl.This way Israel gets the diplomatic heat of its back,and can claim it has done its best.This alone will bring many benefits.As for Peace, well a cold Peace would be fine, and if not then let the palestinian breach legaly binding documents, it will radically alter the balance of power in israels favour should action be required.Also most arab state do support the two state solution.Regards and nice speaking with you Tony.

JM: "They were just playing at it to see what would happen, obviously." Oh, OBVIOUSLY, Jasmine.... JM: "Otherwise Hamas would immediately on acquisition have declared Gaza to be Palestine " TO NOBODYS BENEFIT BUT ISRAEL. Coz Israel would then have said "Whoooopie!" and annexed the West Bank, Jasmine. She would be able to claim the old Mandate was now complete because, of course, the "Pals" now have a "Palestine". And those leftover scraps in the West Bank? Why, they clearly don't belong to Hamas - never has - so clearly they belong to Israel.... And if any arab in the West Bank complained then the IDF could simply scoop them up and dumped them into "their Palestine" in Gaza. Not to mention Israel's answer to any refugee who talks RoR: your state is over there, sonny, in Gaza, so whadda' waitin' fer??? You give the Pals no credit for intelligence, Jasmine, while showing none yourself. Pathetic.

So-called Israel and Bush/Cheney were nicely check-mated today in Teheran by Putin. There is no longer any doubt that more UN Security Council punishments will be met with a Russian veto. What will the howling dogs in Washington and Tel Aviv do next? PS: I agree with you entirely: So-called Israel's inhumane intentions will only be stopped by their defeat in war. Sad but true.

In fact, much of the blame for their situation lies with people like you, who treat Palestinians as if they are too "primitive" to understand the consequences of their actions. Do you know that despite their attacks against Israel, despite the use of ambulances to smuggle weapons, despite the Qassams, etc, Israel has treated thousands of Palestinian patients in hospitals, even failed suicide bombers, even at the height of the intifada? Show me one country, just one that does the same for its enemies! Show me one country that returned land that it lost in a defensive war. Show me one UN country whose attempted genocide generated no resolutions against the aggressors. I am serious. Show me.

You are right that the Palestinians are not "made to suffer the crimes of others", however where you are mistaken is about who's crimes they are suffering today. The reality is that not only was their situation created by the Arab states violating the FIRST UN resolution about Israel (that of its creation) with their three attempts at genocide of Israeli Jews (48, 67, 73), but that the Palestinians (an identity that dates to 1967) could have avoided all the things they complain about many times over. How, you ask? Think: If I know for a fact that firing a Qassam at Israel will bring a reprisal by the IDF (and will probably not even kill anybody) and possibly a demolition of my family's house, yet I still do it, who is the foolish one? What did I achieve? The answer to that question refutes everything you have said. That is the story of the Palestinians from before there were any settlements.

israel......ezekiel 36:5 therefore thus saith the Lord God;surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen,and against all idumea[edom-palestinans/arabs],which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds,to cast it out for a prey.[8] but ye,o mountains of israel,ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of israel;for they are at hand to come.

There's no such thing as "too late" when people's lives are involved.

Howdy Janice; It's a serious matter for a soldier to disobey a lawful order (to refuse to obey an unlawful order is OK). It takes a lot of guts to refuse a lawful order on principle or morality because the consequences are profound. For example, I was opposed to the War in Vietnam, but I didn't have the guts to refuse to go (which would have involved a federal felony conviction, 5 years in Leavenworth, and a criminal record which would have haunted me for the rest of my life). However, I did have enough guts to serve as a combat infantryman in Vietnam (I will spare you the gory details) for one tour of duty. Strange isn't it? At the time, the refuseniks were praised in the press and the veterans were despised, but today, the opposite is true. It took a long time, but I finally got over being ashamed and apologetic about my service and feel somewhat proud about it now (although I still think that the Vietnam War was stupid to begin with).

the unfluence of Ahmedinajad's recent speech at that US University , if not , then how come she does sound like regurgiting what he said . Janice admit that she surfs the Israel refusniks , Yesh Gvul websites , it implies that Janice is under the effectiveness of the arab propaganda as they are , amd the lefties medias manipulation included , wich can be deconstructed should Janice take the time to surf other websites , such as Myths and Facts A Guide to Israeli-Arab Conflict ,JCPA , Jewish Virtual Library , Israel FM website , IHC , and their links , Yet , could the US-Jewish/Janice's posts reflect a state of mind as example of the consequences of the 2000 years old "Jews dispersion" ,

It is time corrupt Israeli politicians stop doing the will of another country's government in return for aid. Israel's GDP grows at an annual rate of 7 billion a year. That is more than enough to run a country decently. By taking this aid, Israel perpetuates an image of weakness and ignores its voters in favor of propping up the American weapons industry. No to US aid!

and that is where you will find the Honorable Solution.If there is any definition to Imperialism it must be 'The Unholy Period of Mankind'. The World just celebrated the end of Slavary. Britain done its honorable duty and apologized and admitted its shame on behalf of its Empire. Now the time for Britain to atone for its Imperialist past and admit its shame for its role specially in the Middle East and mainly where Britain divided the land where Jordan-Palestin-Israel is now. Where there is untold misery for both the Jews and the Arabs, where their land was divided for Imperialist purposes ! Britain must put its efforts and power to redeem itself. To put its efforts in every way politically and financially to resolve the most intractable probem between the Palestinans and the Jews; the Conflict which is originated from dividing this land for Britain Imperialist plans. Will the mother of all Parliaments and the Father of Democracy measure to its Duties?

I just wanted to thank you for the conversation. I have not been able to get much through today. But, whether I agree with you or not, I appreciate a well argued conversation. BTW, we never got past philosophy to apply social science, I would have liked to broached institution building in light of culture vs. outside stimuli and culture vs. self preservation in nation formation, maybe another day.

To everyone's amazement, the Jews were very successful at reclaiming the land. Many of them died from malaria and the rigorous life the work demanded, but they performed an agricultural miracle that made the land very productive again. As a result of their success, poor migrant workers from the surrounding Muslim countries began to flood in to work for the Jews. The Jews literally became victims of their own success ? almost all of the people calling themselves "Palestinians" today are the descendants of those migrant workers. Much more is said and documented on this subject in my book. But the main point is this: The Muslims have repeatedly shown they understand these things. Since they know that the so-called "Palestinians" are not a homogeneous people, but rather a mixed conglomerate of workers with no cohesive organizational or political skills, they have repeatedly not given them a state. When the Hashemite Tribe, who were rulers over Mecca and Medina for centuries, were driven out by the Saudis, the British gave them control over the vastly greater numbers of "migrant workers" in Trans Jordan. The British said this would be, in effect, "The State of Palestine." Instead, the Hashemites, who make up only about 20 percent of the population, turned it into their own kingdom and called it the Kingdom of Jordan. When the Jordanians and Egyptians controlled the so-called West Bank and the Gaza Strip for 19 years (1948 to 1967), there was never a thought of giving the disorganized mass of "migrant workers" a state. Why? Because they knew there was no cohesive, homogeneous people known as "Palestinians." The current efforts of Jordan and Egypt (and all the rest of the Muslim Middle East nations) to give these same people a state is clearly a ploy to get a foothold inside Israel. It is a strategic accommodation to establish a base from which the final assault against Israel can be made. What they couldn't do militarily is now being facilitated through the United States and the E.U. Muslims will never accept a permanent presence of infidels in what they claim is sacred Islamic soil. Especially Jewish infidels for which the Koran reserves its most vehement condemnations. In their minds, the Koran and Allah will not let them accept Jews in what they view as their third holiest site. The United States had better learn these things, or we will find ourselves guilty of facilitating the destruction of God's people, to whom the Word of God says the land belongs forever. God will not let that happen, but He will certainly judge those who have any part in trying to do it. God warned: "Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom [Arabs], who took MY LAND to themselves as a possession, with whole-hearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country ... But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to MY PEOPLE ISRAEL, for they are about to come.'" (Ezekiel 36: 5, 8 NKJ

One of the most misunderstood issues today is the question of "Who are the Palestinians"? The truth about this matter has been so deliberately obscured that even to raise the question will seem strange to most readers. In my book, "The Everlasting Hatred, the Roots of Jihad," I trace the history of the people now being called the "Palestinians." The land of Israel became known as Palestine after the Roman destruction of Israel in A.D. 70. It was ruled by many different invaders for the following 19 centuries. In the 7th century, the Muslims took control of Palestine for the first time. From A.D. 635 until 1917, the Muslims ruled it, with only a few interruptions by the European Crusaders. During that span of time, the land was reduced to total desolation. Many people who traveled the land in the 19th century remarked on the fact that Palestine was as desolate as the moon and very few people lived there. In 1867, Mark Twain remarked about his visit to the Holy Land in his book, "The Innocents Abroad." He lamented, "Stirring scenes occur in the valley [of Jezreel] no more. There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent ? not for 30 miles in either direction. There are two or three small clusters of Bedouin tents, but not a single permanent habitation. One may ride 10 miles hereabouts and not see 10 human beings." By all eyewitness accounts of that era, Palestine was a total desolation. There were virtually no trees and no people. Because of lack of trees, the weather changed and it rarely ever rained. The irrigation systems of the once fertile valleys were all destroyed, rendering most areas into malaria-ridden swamps. The terraces of the mountainsides were torn down, causing terrible erosion that left only barren rocks. This was the condition of Palestine by the beginning of the 19th century. It was at this time that Jews began to flee severe persecutions in Russia and Eastern Europe. In the mid-1800s, some Jews came to Palestine and, with the generous aid of some successful Jews like the Rothschilds, began to buy property from Muslim Ottoman Turks. The Muslims thought the land was worthless anyway, so they sold it to the "dumb Jews" for extremely inflated prices.

Thanks for your wishes, Kath. Keep on writing. I just saw your post, hope you will be able to see it after the break. The timing & paper breaks are so huge here with other responsibilities, even 3 hour zones in US are problems to respond to everything.

Dear Kath, Do not worry for Silvienne any more, I think she had found her niche as designated praise giver for likeminded. There is the story about it. The rooster was walking thought the forest & he so the crow on the tree. He looked up & out of the blue started singing praises to her on how beautiful she looks. Well, she looked back & cried how colorful & wonderful he is. That went back & forth all day. So the question was why the crow was praising the rooster, because the rooster was praising her. The moral is the ignorants will always find each other & do what they will not get from others.

pa promoting and glorifying terrorism mothers express joy at son's death for allah children are combatants in pa ideology palestinians celebrated 9/1/1 palestinians,allah kill americans teaching of hatred of jews,israel and the usa in arab world tv hatred of the usa and the west palestinian children yearning martyrdom,encouraged by parents encouraging women terrorists ...................what do you think,janice?

Howdy Lakshmi; Not even the Arab League is trying to go back to the proposed UN partition plan of 1947 contained in UNGAR 181. The legality of the proposal was contingent upon both the Jews and the Arabs of the British Mandate of Palestine accepting the proposal before the Mandate ended on 5/15/48 which didn't happen because even though the Jews accepted it, the Arabs rejected it and went to war instead in a failed attempt to grab the whole enchilada. Only you and Mr. A. D'Amato are still clinging to the fantasy that the UN partition plan was either 1) legal or 2) a border. There has been a lot of water under the bridge during the past 60 years and it would be wise for you to take that into consideration because everybody else has to whether they like it or not instead of trying to beat a dead horse like UNGAR 181 which has been superceded by later UN resolutions (most notably by UNSCR 242).

Janice looks like your out numbered, you must have true spirit of BIG Brother "GOD", if you lived in my neighborhood I would ask you for a date thats if you would not mind going with a non Jew.

You wrote---"Why should I give you the name of my historian friend? Do you want to submit his name to David Horowitz so he can get him fired from his high position or at the very least have him targeted by the Campus Watch thugs?". Janice Yes Janice, you have hit the nail on the head. Alan Dershowitz would be on the phone pronto. I see you have met sister naria. Labhras Who is on first (I mean on the phone), David Horowitz, Alan Dershowitz, maybe you ment Shmuel Kiperowitz? You should have advised Janice to try Benny Hill talking to sister NARIA. His name does not sound so close so unnecessary very hard complicity could be avoided. After you hang the phone up, do not forget to get your standard `post of the day` praise certificate from Silvienne.

I dont think this conference will accomplish anything. Why? Did u notice that all "big" conferences r held at the end of presidential terms? Why? Because only then the administrations can utter do anti-israeli things. The success of these depends solely on Israel's saying yes. I dont think Israel will commit to definite things ; they will commit to plans contingent on Arab behaviour.

palestinians.why don't you go this website:palestinian media watch homepage.

these terrorist supporters got a jew in their net.I wonder,what bait did they use to capture her?.........janice...the jews to the rescue are in their way to help you get out of that net.

Just because Bush is leaving office, don't let them bully you to the edge of the abyss. There should NOT be any Palestinian state alongside Israel while the enemy thrives on the idea of destroying Israel. JUST SAY NO!

Silvienne, thanks for the kind posts. I do my best to bring clarity to the situation. The pro Israeli crowd hate logic and refuse to follow anything but a highly selective history defined by the Israeli department of Public Relations... How can one logically explain Israel's insistence that the upcoming peace conference stick to vague comments and open ended time tables...? Peace

The US Navy is no longer reporting where it's carriers are, except for the Enterprise. The Enterprise is no longer listed as being in either the Persian Gulf or Arabian Sea. It is now only listed as being with the "5th fleet." The same goes for the two amphibious warfare ships formerly listed as being in the Persian Gulf. The LHD-1 Wasp and LHD-3 Kearsarge, formerly listed as being in the Persian Gulf are now listed as being with the 5th fleet." All other listings of ships formerly at sea except carriers are the same as they always have been, by location. All carriers except the Enterprise (CVN-65) have "disappeared. Meanwhile an unusual number of US ships are shown as "underway" or "on Deployment", especially attack submarines (spell that cruise missiles) which are at unusually high 53% "underway." Bush junta has been pumping out lots of "leaks" to indicate a 'conspiracy so vast" between the "Axis of Evil" (North Korea, Iran Syria) so we might see some action.

Akram...spare me your "lack of leadership" arguments. I've been following the conflict for years, working hard towards conflict resolution, and one constant I observed: The pro-Israel crowd will always seek to find new excuses to refuse peace with the Palestinians... Yours is new one: They don't have the leadership... Tomorrow...you will have a new excuse. It is getting stale, my friend. Israel has a complete strangle hold on Palestinian society. Until they cooperate and give their dreams of conquest and control...the Palestinians have only one option: RESIST. I for one perfer to work with the Israelis and make a nice clean transfer of power from the Military to the civillian Palestinian leadership. The settlers in their current state, have no future in the West Bank.

Jews have have made their home all over the world, some of my friends are Jews, US, Canada, Europe have become nulti cultural societies, Palestine looks like its going the other way, Religion is about ethics which have no bounderies.

labhras,why can't you admit it...they're more intelligent than the palestinians.......the palestinian people know that it's a war zone,but they still send their children to play or throw rocks at idf.and when they saw a car that was bombed,the whole town would go and see what had happened.....curiosity killed the cat!!!!!

Akram, you just don't get it. Annapolis is the home of the United States Naval Academy and it is the US Navy which will spearhead the attack on Iran. You can't move the conference to Amman, because if it is there the world will not learn who it's master is, and how those who fail to kow-tow to his majesty will fare.

I truly believe this with all my heart. Looks like you have two "visions" before you Haaretz, I for one would prefer Peacemakers to before Petra's.

Perhaps if Israel ended her relentless campaign of violence and intimidation against the Palestinians, then the majorities on both side who are willing to comprimise and make peace can get it started. This concept our Jewish friends cling to, that Israeli violence is self defence, moral and just....is getting old.

Did you read Rosner's rave the other day? The Bush junta and Olmert regime have done everything they could to ensure the failure of the Annapolis Photo-Op. They are already deeply involved in blaming Hamas - and soon Iran - for it's failure. You must understand that neither government - that of the USA, or that of Israel, is interested in seeing any peace agreement. If peace were to break out in the middle east the Olmert regime would be overthrown by the defection of Shas. If peace were to break out the religious right in the US would blame the republican party for preventing the Second Coming of Christ. Neither government could survive the outbreak of peace, so the whole point of the Annapolis exercise is to put up the appearance of wanting peace while ensuring it would never happen. Just propaganda. If Hamas were included, it would be far harder to blame it for the failure both Bush and Omert desire.

Hi Silvienne, Yeah that kath is a real piece of work.She actually has writen a couple of sensible posts, or was it just the one. I used to call her "kitty the hare". that is a name for a banshee, or an irish dance.In either case it seems appropriate. Poor Janice has attracted some real rabid natives and they are gathering for the kill.Please stay and protect her.I may have to conclude for today.Bye for now.

And she's right Chaim. Few at Haaretz would ever desert Israel!!! In this day and age encouragers are few and far between, rare even. So glad to hear one, does the heart good. Thanks Kath'

Thanks for your response. Maybe you should get back to your priest for your land inheritance. After all, if my people claim the Holy Land, there must be a place for the Catholics as well who, I believe, do not yet have a state of their own. As for maria, I do feel rather sorry for her. I'm sure that she must be a perfectly lovely woman but without any sense of compassion for others, especially the dispossessed Palestinians. I wonder if she is part of those Christians who believe that once all the Jews are gathered back in the Holy Land, Jesus will come again and all those Jews who do not accept Him will be cast into hell. What do you think?

Janice is a great poster. Let's hope she keeps posting here, we need her... Did you see that idiot "Kath"'s post to Janice..."I never read your posts and now I see why just push off and stop trying to do this that and the other...." Incredible! An idiot by her own admission! Regards:)

Dear Kath,I wish you were right. But at what point are these suicide leftists going to side with Israel? If not now, when? No matter how disastrous Israeli concessions have always been, they demand more concessions. No matter how many Israeli civilians have been maimed and murdered by freed terrorists, they always demand Israel free more terrorists. And Haaretz sending journalists around the world to condemn Israel as "apartheid" is beyond despicable. Yes, it is VERY frustrating. Israel's most dangerous enemies are not Fatah, Hamas, Hizbullah or even Iran. They are suicide leftists, like Haaretz editors, who are pushing Israel to self destruction. Will they come to their senses and recognize the disaster they are inflicting upon Israel? I wouldn't bet on it. For they haven't yet, as a group. And the damage they have done is incalculable. I hope and pray that decent, self respecting Jews, and our Christian friends, rise up and save Israel before it is too late.

Keep posting!

Hi silvienne--Just thought I would use this post directly..ChannahS is another expert and former(???) Apologist for Apartheid South Africa having lived there. What these two cannot understand is their present hatred of the Palestinian people, (who in their view are to blame for everthing) does not in any way potray them as humanists,and it is not likely that they were on the streets in SA protesting either.There were of course many brave Jewish people who did Protest and much nore.The problem is these two are trying to piggy back on their bravery. A just person does not usually become a racist and intolerant person. Regards

I wonder what you would say to the Israelis who feel as I do. I wonder what you would say to the courageous Israelis who have long fought against the occupation. I wonder what you would say to the brave reservists who have refused to fight beyond the Green Zone because, as they say on their web site: We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people. I wonder what you would say to those Israelis who have stood with the people of Bil'en and tried to prevent the confiscation of their village land. Here is a web site for you to see the Israelis with whom I take my stand. http://www.refusersolidarity.net/ Kath, I am sorry that you are so full of anger, so full of hatred and so blind that you cannot see that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians gives neither hope nor confort to either people.

Maria I knew you wouldn't be fooled and accept that Janice in her twised sneaky way she tried to convince you and am glad you did not fall for it,which I knew you would not. Some people think you are naive,but the ones who think that,are only foolong themselves and no one else.I say thank you again,and don't ever give up. As Ever Your Friend KATH'

Just as you claim to recognise an anti-semite wherever you see one, which is everywhere, so can I recognise the South African posters here because, as Labhras says, they are too used to the good old days of apartheid, ordering posters off this site, demanding that Haaretz put out their posts... White supremacist, you say? No, I never mentioned that phrase. The arrogance you display in saying I know nothing reveals you, don't you see that? But, never mind, it's not worth it. As always, best regards

You wrote---"Why should I give you the name of my historian friend? Do you want to submit his name to David Horowitz so he can get him fired from his high position or at the very least have him targeted by the Campus Watch thugs?". Yes Janice, you have hit the nail on the head.Alan Dershowitz would be on the phone pronto. I see you have met sister naria. This particular brand of Christian,quite without guilt claims animals are smarter than Palestinians.She is quite the little bigot who qoutes the bible to explain to the "unawares" that God gave Israel to the Jews.That is funny because when I was young I was taught by the priest that we Catholics were the chosen people.But he necer mentioned any land inheritance. In any event it is nice to see a true Jewish person amongst these fanatics.If Israel is to survive it should be for people like you. Regards

"If all Israel wants is land why doesn`t she just round up all the arabs in Yesha and throw them out of Yesha? Israel doesn`t have the means to do it??? Of course she does, and afternoon of controlled bombing would disperse and send them running or burying them." How's the peace plan going, pete? Have you and Margie got many disciples over there on the Olive Branch admiringly watching you salivating about the thought of killing millions of Palestinians? Did Peres ever return your call? BTW, the answer to your questions is that not even Bibi or Liebermann would be quite so crazy as to turn the Americans against Israel, even though they share your ambition to get rid of those pesky Pals.

Right back at ya, duckie!!!

Hello Danite, I am with both my arms & legs for two state solution with at most viable, happy Pal state, believe me I speak from the hart. With one provision: very slow, careful, realistic mix & match until all the pieces of the puzzle are in place & Israel is relying only on herself in security & demography, disregarding any Arab state or ruler`s `mood` tomorrow, ten years or hundred years from now. I do not care for any other manucia, as long as Israel is in control of her language, culture, borders & love-hate relationship around her is not prescribed by the school books & TV cartoons. My question is where & how does it begin if the Arab states do not want such peace, & wont let Pals have it. It may be suicidal for them to allow the peace I have described. I am not against any concessions. But because of historical reality mixed with the realization of today, I look beyond Israeli concession, into what they are likely going to bring, & go back to the drawing board.

If post #182 is the best you can do to rebut the points raised by Labhras, then you'd better not waste any more time trying.

"Bush is desperate to leave some sort of heritage, other than turning everything he puts his hands in turning to crap---He`ll spare no expense, no matter who pays" What!!!! I hope you remember the more-than-one time you told me off for slagging off Bush!!

You wrote: "Why should I give you the name of my historian friend? Do you want to get him fired from his high position or at the very least have him targeted by the Campus Watch thugs." Actually, when you said (in #202) that your friend "criticizes Israel" and does so "because he is a Jew," I had assumed he was criticizing Israel publicly, in which case I should think that his position on Israel (coming from such a "renowned historian") would already be known to anyone who has heard him speak or read his work on the subject. What does he do, criticize Israel because he is a Jew and then swear everyone who has heard his criticism to secrecy?

"Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto could not create a state, neither can Palestinians under Israeli occupation" Ibrahim, that is an excellent point never before made here I think. I've often enough asked how the Palestinians can be expected to build anything out of the rubble left by the IDF in Gaza and the settlements in the WB, but you put it in far better terms... Regards

Hello Labhras..thanks for your post! You know what, you saved me from a boring three minutes..I saw "peter's" post called "silvienne silvienne silvienne" (he must like writing my name) and before opening it looked down and saw yours...read yours, so didn't bother opening his...thanks again; like I've said before, that is no peace forum of Margie's, judging by what she writes here..still, as you say, it's the Palestinians' fault, and if not theirs, then its the fault of the pro-Palestinian posters on Haaretz:) Regards and keep posting! PS: no-one wants a boring three minutes, do they??

Janice I have never read your posts,but I can see now why.Most probably it was because I had read only one,and one was one too many. Stop trying to proe the wonderful things your uncle,papa,mama et all may have done or not. The fact remains most people here know of you and your sentiments.Push off and tell it to the Arabs and have a jolly party with them and goodluck to you where ever you reside. One thing more,don't try camouflaging your false feelings here to most of us who are good and genuine Jews who would never leave or neglectour one and only country ISRAEL..

is the only legally authorised border between israel and Palestine.See jurist A.D'Amato,'Israel's Border Under International Law'(pdf).

Excellent two pages post.A lot to think about. It explain the nature of the 'war'Israel engaged itself with the Palestinians."have been characterized by 'passiveness,perpertuation of the status quo"em.This is the very problem that made this 'war'NOT a 'war'but something more a state fighting a mafia like gang.There is nothing to conquer;but only something to defeat & eradicate.'activism,initiative,etc"e.m.This dosen't.'advocate..a remedy.e.m."so the penalty for every hostile act will be known'e.m. That dosen't change or finish the conflict. "During Isael's War of Independence,the newly founded Jewish nation infused with resolute etc"e.m.Again,this worked with the Arab States; it can't work with the Palestinians for rasons mentioned on your post'there is little reason to suppose that the Palestinians..will be detetered..if the Palestinians are prepared to enduer the same rate of casualties."em.As you stated"This comparison underscores the utter futility..pt-2

Olmert should have resigned months ago in order to have time to clear his name.The Republican party has sent Rice over to kick start the primaries with no real care for the future of the Middle East.Quite why Israel wishes to feature on this chess board as a pawn in the hands of a discredited PM and a PR seeking White House is difficult to understand.If we had partners in peace it would be like reading Alice in Wonderland but without all of the beligerent countries and groups signing on the dotted line the whole thing is like fantasy virtual poker using Israelis and Arabs as chips.The time for this peace push has been set according to the US election calendar and is disconnected from the realities on the ground and the prospects for any meaningful agreement.

sorry I couldn't read any further, I got a stitch in my side laughing ";0)) Thanks for the comic relief, Haaretz is funny, like delusionally funny But how will your readers ever learn that USA's propaganda-bluff is a busted flush, and that the Empire is in rapid decomposition, with your sad zionist apartheid statelet soon to follow?

Howdy Genuine Tosefta; "A better chance for Peace is keeping out Ghastly Impostor #193" Now why can't I be as succinct as you? I guess that one-liners are not my forte. Tosefta's idea of peace is no peace at all. Congratulations on putting it in a nutshell.

fate.janice,they sided with hitler and the nazis in world war 2 and with the ottaman turks. have you heard of suicide bombers?who invented these explosive belts?if they stop their wicked deeds,I'm sure israel won't bother them.I read a lot of books about the holocaust,I even visited holocaust museum in dc and richmond,va.you know what the parents said to the rescuers,"after the war,please tell them that their jews and israel is their land."so I see,your grandfather did not teach you that.if you don't believe in zionism,it means you don't believe that israel belong to the jewish people.my question is: what land do they belong to then?

In 1922, Britain illegally gave Muslims 80% of JEWISH Palestine-the area became Jordan, giving Muslims an ARAB Palestinian State on JEWISH land. It was ethnically cleansed of Jews. Racist Jew-haters US/EU, demand ruthless, forcible expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Jews from Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem DESTROYING Israel`s security and rendering Jews jobless and homeless. US/EU/UN ruthless ideology that demands cruel religious cleansing of innocents for not being Muslim must STOP! Oslo-Road Map destroyed the human rights of Christians who suffer horrific persecution under brutal occupation of PA/PLO: FrontPageMagazine.com | September 13, 2005 `Christianity Dying In Its Birthplace` By Daniel Pipes “Almost every day – I repeat, almost every day – our communities are harassed by the Islamic extremists in these regions,” Pizzaballa says. “And if it’s not the members of Hamas or Islamic Jihad, there are clashes with … the Palestinian Authority.” /continued

Jonathan I will go tomorrow and read the article. Meantime,just heard in the news(Fox news)as though we were not aware that Bush is pushing this out,beause he wants to get recognition,and instead of going out with a whimper,he is aiming to go out with a big trallaa.Most probably hopes to get some sort of "Prize" hummph!What I say,I hope it will not be on Israel's expense. What can one say,it is all so futile for the present and we'll have to be patient until the end of the supposed Annapolis convocation,it goes ahead that is. Many Thank Jonathan And I will end by saying: Am Yisrael Chai!!

an other Arab country. Not Israel, Not Condy, not the Arabs themself.They know that they are not capable to run an independent countrie. It would be another desaster like every arab country and worst, because WB and Gaza cannot survive since they do not have natural resorces. The human factor is a disaster, and than comes the the religion.....Forget about. Lets Egypt and Jordan have the headache.

Peter says “claiming nationhood in reverse and a culture after-the-fact, that still hasn`t established itself.” Peter, the nations of the new World in fact did exactly this. It does not delegitimize their existence. It is the nature of transition. The idea of nation state is a modern construct. There have been other forms of identification Monarchies, city states, ect…. The importance of legitimacy of government is NOT culture. It is social contract between the people living in an area and whom they chose to represent them. Palestinians after 1967 are left with no options and no representation. Through shared recognition that Israel does not want them, nor do neighboring nations, the need for self governance arises. Instead of being a state in a larger Arab nation, they must be nation state. Cultural differences predate Israel. They are not as pronounced as East to West, but are enough to garner recognition of the natives, which is important to the issue of nation building.

As far as I recall, none of my grandparents or my parents ever expessed any sort of desire to live in Israel nor did they ever say that it is "our" land. As I said, they were proud of being Jewish but they were not Zionists... Hello Janice, I do not know why, but people like you give me the biggest `headache` here, because no matter how much I try, compared with your `innocence` I simply can not get any of my `vulgarity` through the editor, no matter how many times I try. I see you parents & grandparents are excellent Jews, & Zionists are, well Zionists (we will keep it G rated). What do you know about Zionists & Zionism? Stupid question, I know. Why would your parents call it `our` land? It is Israeli land, her citizens land. And lastly, if your parents & you are such proud Jews, you mast have attended some kind of services. Throughout the service (that includes US Jews), we usualy ask God to bless the land of Israel. Which land & where do you think it is located?

Tony hello Wonderfully well expressed responses both and I for one thank you.I had to reply seeing no one took the slightest interest and we have seen you here especially,when our dear Cipora is with us and she responds to you in her inimitable way.I decided to offer my hearfelt support in all you produced here. God Bless and Keep You P/S Haaretz this is for TonyL#186 plp put out.

Howdy Tosefta; Sure, Hamas is squawking from the Gaza Strip, but nobody is listening or at least not paying them any attention. In fact, the symptoms of desperate frustration at being consistently rejected by everybody except by the Gazans is beginning to show. Hamas has painted itself into physical, political, diplomatic, economic, and military corner and nobody cares except for you, Lakshmi, and the other terrorist lovers. If Hamas gets uppity with rockets and mortars, then Israel will counterfire and this time Israel will turn the dimmer switch on the electricity, fuel, shekels, and other commerce counterclockwise half-a-turn--not enough to cause a humanitarian crisis but enough to keep the Gazans at bare-subsistence levels. If Hamas tries to increase the violence above the current level, then Israel will simply launch an all-out invasion and reoccupy the Gaza Strip. Hamas is not in very good position at all and everybody can afford to ignore them (while keeping a close watch)

In his biography he is quite open about his relations with jews.he says that as a result of his work ina jewish law firm , he said that jews in general were much more liberal than others.As well a former palmachnik gave the ANC advice on guerilla warfare.Of course their is the famous jewish communist who is a bit of a freak on israel who served with him on Robin island.I was in south africa once during apartheid in 76.I was in cape town, and durban, we drove around the transkei too!!!

so your grandfather didn't believe that the jews had a land in the middle east?......what a shame!you know what zionist is?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then, you are a good zionist and I dont want to fight with some one who intentions for israel are good if somewhat misguided.Shalom Achi!

Avi, I suspect that you and I were born around the same time. While I am on "the left" I am not young and neither are my Jewish friends who feel as I do. Prior to 1948 my father was approached by two men from the Yeshuv who asked him to raise money for what he was assured would be a bi-national state. My father put on an enormous event at the Hollywood Bowl in 1947 in which he raised thousands of dollars that were to go to those fighting the British occupation in Palestine. My father also wrote a play about Jews and Arabs working together to end the British occupation of Palestine. Once my father found out that Palestine was to become pretty much an exclusivist Jewish state and found out about the removal of the Palestinian Arabs he became disillusioned. His hopes and his dreams for the Middle East died. And that was back in the late forties. He never lost his belief in Judaism but felt that no one had a right to drive another people from their land so that they could take it over.

Are you apaid hamas apoligist??? All you do is whine and whine and whine and whine about your poor little hamas.grow up already.and stop hating jews please.Thanks

Thank you for your comments,yes I see the freaks in al their devious games.Tony, I bvelive that israel simply cannot wait generations to get out.The damage and problems it causes israel is to high of a liability.rather in the worst case scenario a two state solution can become a more effective method of conflict management, while giving israel many benefits at the same time.Regards

Your obsequious posting to Yakoub Sullivan was funny - and foolish. He is NOT on Israel's side, is not Jewish, is deeply anti-Semitic and hostile to anything to do with Israel.

The 2nd part of my post(#47)where it starts "As for #32", that was intended to the person who posted the response#32 and it was not meant for you. Apologies for the confusion...

Was so hoping someone would take it to task!!! I think it iluminates the fact that even though the Jews, Christians and Muslims believe differently about God, they are still in agreement on the point of fact that there is only ONE God. It's a foundational truth upon which to build from for heavens sakes!!! (Pun intended) Haaretz please reconsider, who knows, maybe someone will take it to task; It would make an awesome music video! Give us all something better to think about. The perfect ending: Get the real characters to make a public profession of their WILLINGNESS to allow God to change their heart according to His Will and a WILLINGNESS to pray for the other two and their people.

If you knew anything about the history of the conflict, you would know that immediately after the 6 Day War Israel offered all conquered lands back in exchange for a final and lasting peace agreement with its neighbors - Syria, Egypt and Jordan. The response was a resounding NEVER! (see: the three no's by the arab League in Khartoum). When Egypt extended its hand in peace, Israel return most of the captured land in exchage for a peace deal, returning the Sinai and its oil wells. Egypt, of course, refused to take back Gaza, not wanting to be burdened with the "Palestinian problem". The settlement enterprise did not begin until several years later when Israe realized that nobody was ready to give it the peace that was a condition to returning the territories. So you see, your contention that Israel only wants land is highly contentious and fallacious.

Well Chaim If should anything happen(God Forfend)to Israel then Haaretz will disappear and go for a long swim with the rest of our people! My words may be blurred and I hope to God that it never comes to pass. Don't worry Chaim,we know that if it wasn't for the flow generated here by the filth they let in,including us,I must admit,they will be in hot water and nowhere to run.Try and be a bit more optimistic and hopefully(some hope)Haaretz will stop being as hateful you think they are.I will add however,that ultimately the majority of the editors(not counting the Arabs they employ)will not desert Israel at the end... I understand your frustration when reading the articles here and it is awful to read at times. What can one say Chaim???

Why should I give you the name of my historian friend? Do you want to submit his name to David Horowitz so he can get him fired from his high position or at the very least have him targeted by the Campus Watch thugs?

Do you know that one of the founders of Israel, David Ben Gurion, said that if he could save all the Jewish children of Europe and not have a Jewish state or only half of the children and have a Jewish state, he would choose to save only half. What do you think of that? Maria, the Holocaust was a horror beyond belief but don't you understand that the Palestinians have been paying the price for the crimes of others. Why did they have to leave their homes and lands because another people wanted those lands? Why did the countries that practiced pogroms and perpetrated the Holocaust not have to give up a portion of their lands for the Jews? Why were the Palestinians made to suffer for the crimes of others? This terrible situation which is deadly to both peoples must end and will not end until there is a viable Palestinian state on all the land occupied by Israel since 1967.

You can find the article here: http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/645/283.html The problem with the demands is that Israel has a PM against whom four different investigations are actually running, see the well-written Haaretz article by Shtrasler. Olmert is so weak and Israel will be surrounded in Annapolis by so many enemies, that foolish concessions from Olmert can be expected in order to save his job. Of course the Palestinians know that and their demands are growing day by day. I am convinced that the Olmert government must not be allowed to attend the meeting. Livni, in negotiating the UNIFIL hoax and together with Rice the leaving of the Philadelphi Road, has shown that she is not fit for her job either.

Does that make Margie a white supremacist? Are you that simple minded? Do you know anything of the anti-apartheid movements in South Africa? Do you know anything about South Africa? Do you know anything?

On another forum you called someone a racist for ascribing a certain well known Irish thirst-quenching pasttime to you. It is in fact you who are the racist, so inherent that you fail to see it - or else never make the effort to look at yourself in the mirror.

Ms. Rivera, I have read that more Christians have left Bethlehem because of the severe restrictions placed on the non-Jewish residents of Yesha than because of a "Muslim Mafia." In 1967, when Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan in the Six-Day war, more than 60 percent of the area was Christian. More than 5,000 Christians have left the city during the last few years, primarily for economic reasons, while the so-called Christian countries in the West gave all their money to the P.A., which was like giving it to the mafia, said the Bethlehem Christian. Bethlehem Christians Worry About Islamic Takeover in Jesus' Birthplace By Julie Stahl CNSNews.com Jerusalem Bureau Chief May 19, 2005 Peace. Steve

Ms. Rivera, If that is your position on moving people based on race or religion, then you must be for a one state solution in which Israel absorbs all the Arab citizens of Yesha into its state as full citizens. Otherwise you would have to move someone based on their religion or ethnicity. I completely support that idea. It is the only fair solution. Peace. Steve

Howdy Tosefta; The result of keeping Hamas cooped up and confined to the Gaza Strip is the greatest thing since sliced pastrami. As an internationally recognized terrorist organization, the U.S. and the EU are simply ignoring Hamas. Even the Arab countries are backing Abbas and the new Fayad government. Hamas is stuck like a bug on flypaper on 360 sq. Km. of kitty litter and they can't get out. The prospects of a realistic peace agreement are greatly enhanced without Hamas although the agreement would only apply to the West Bank and not to Hamastan. You and the diplomatic community are still operating under the delusion that the WB and the GS constitute a single Palestinian political entity. I wonder how many years it will take for you to realize that Hamas and Fatah burned their bridges 5 mo. ago and that the schism is irreconcilable.

Peter, It is difficult to see the results of Israeli expansion in Yesha as 2% given the following map: http://www.fmep.org/maps/map_data/west_bank/west_bank_1998.html Especially when compared to the original partition plan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1947-UN-Partition-Plan-1949-Armistice-Comparison.png Peace. Steve

WASHINGTON ? In a rare display of bipartisanship, members of Israel's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee from both sides of the political spectrum declared the upcoming Annapolis peace conference doomed. The unanimous opinion was voiced by four leading MKs currently visiting Washington for a series of high-ranking meetings prior to the conference. On Tuesday the group met with US Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs Nick Burns and Deputy National Security Advisor Jim Jeffrey READ ALL ABOUT IT in YNET.

for a settlement. They never had it so good. (those in positions of influence and power). Business is good and the immediate threat of a third Intifada is contained by the Wall and the Gaza fence. Most people would like a settlement of course, but as in all Western 'democracy's', there is a real disconnect between the population and their leadership. They want peace but will get war. It is likewise in the US, where the population want out of Iraq and the UK where the people never wanted into Iraq. Both populations are condescended to and even derisively disregarded. Israel seems to fit the same mould. If this is democracy, no wonder it is getting so hard to sell.

The better question would have been when (if) she is attending synagogue, how she sings the praises & best wishes to the land of Israel, & you will quickly find out that the 6 letter (Jewish) is all that has remained. The rest was `washed away` from the family tree generation by generation at least as I understood from her post far back as her grandparents, beginning with the generation that divided Jews into `good & bad` & condemned those `bad Zionists` who went to the land of Israel. The only aberration from the famous Ahmadinejad`s `Jewish state in Alaska` rhetoric is from `where to relocate Israel today` to `do Jews need a state of their own at all` arguments. Naturai Karta, Berg, the list of special `anti-Semitism` in the Semitic form or concept is quiet long. Quiet ugly, sometimes more painful & appalling form, because it requires to ignore or look through the `Jew` meaning.

They are really sensitive romantic children without left side of brain - no logic, just nice words that reflect light, no concept of reality - Tosefta sends the same deep thoughts ( I mean the same - "pasted in")- sometimes 2-3 times a day for months. He did not noticed HAMAS has already converted into Judaism (Y. Sullivan officiated) but still continues to past the same. HAMAS requested me to ask The LEFT to stop to use them for the goals of justice, anti globalization and against genetically modified potato. :)

True that for more than a decade Israel has avoided to talk about the CORE ISSUES, which are in fact on which depends Peace and SECURITY for both nations. Israel prefer to confiscate/grabbing lands for the benefits of the settlers,instead. Israel likes to see the merry go round of US PRESIDENTS, who are at first shy to do anything then came the 2nd terms, then at the end of their terms they desperately try to do something and but naturally failed miserably, this TIME with this Pres. it will be NO different. If the Israelis want PEACE & SECURITY, then nothing can stop them to start talking about the CORE ISSUES straightaway.

Your journalists run around the world condemning our tiny, democratic (populated largely by Holocaust survivors and their offspring) as "apartheid". Your editorials applaud reducing our waist to a mere ten miles, knowing all of Israel would be in terror rocket range. I have never seen a Haaretz editorial that was even remotely patriotic. Haaretz doesn't want Israel to surive, does it? I suspect Haaretz suicide leftists plan to drive Israel to the brink of destruction and catch planes to New York. YOU PEOPLE ARE REALLY SICK AND EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Margie Get Your head High it is You Who Has to Look Down at LABHRAS Labhras is the one coming from a country that has had a sectarian divide, And on any occasion it came up she was dodging the questions, She may have even participated in the sectarian mambo jambo, And now that it is cool to be apposed to it, she is a freedom fighter a humanist! Pure O P P O R T U N I S M if I may say! Makes me think since Labhras is such a critic what has she been doing to solve the troubles in North Ireland, and when did she start, if at all?

...The 2 state solution is a an idiocy, and therefore did't work before just as it will not work in the future. There is nothing to devide either. All what needs to be done is a total resettlement of all pal's + all arabs of Israel ++ acsa to the farmost from Israel muslim/arabic/moronic lands or the Moon. That is the best for all solution. It will happen anyway, why delay it?... Regards...

Jonathan I hate to say this,but it is the ME's type of bargaining chip I suppose.We know,or hope the GOV will not abide by the stupid "bazzar"demand. When will they realize that the Jews/Israel wasn't born yesterday and they have only been led by the nose by the rat Arafat,and consequently learned nothing in the interim. No need to apologize to Haaretz either!They are not the only fish in the sea of journalism in Israel.In fact I am now going there to read the article you mentioned...

The Hamas charter which calls for the annihilation of Israel and speaks about Jews referring to the ill-fated Protocols has been traced directly by many scholars to the spreading of German Nazi ideology to the Middle East through the Muslim Brotherhood. As this happens to be the case, Hamas should be treated the same way as the original.

Max, Clinton actually did suffer for some time due to his lying about the affair, which might have dimmed the pleasant memories of Monica's fleshy charms. However, Clinton is riding high today, welcomed by admirers, drawing royalties for his best seller bio, forgiven by his wife and buoyed by the prospects of another eight years in the White House as Hilary's "First Laddie."

had said during ww2.....germany or the netherlands was their home.who helped them to get out and made israel a nation?the movement they hated.zionism- a belief that there is a jewish homeland in the middle eastern area where the israelites originally lived."zion" is another name for jerusalem.......o how wish I could go to israel,I'm longing to see it.my daughter loves reading anne frank diary.she wished she were a jew.

Margie Oh yes how many generations?There's a thought. Hypocritical,obfuscating,and excuses,excuses. If she thinks maria will fall for it,she can think again... On the historical narrative of the white/Jews who helped the regime in South Afrika and now he forgets the debt he owes to them. Ingrates are like that.I did hear of Joe Slovo, the Susmans,and many others no doubt as well. I will have to re-educate myself more on the subject.But who the hell cares of the likes of Silvienne who's thoughts like the others of her ilk come here and spew falsely on many subjects.I was laughing about her lack of knowledge of the Spanish Inquisition when she mentioned the Protestants,which was not the inital problem.It had begun with the Moors and Jews and much later with English after Henry 8th's abolishing renouncing his Catholic faith to marry Anne Boleyn.He still died as good a Catholic after all. Oh well,some are really not all there...

There is no state and there never will be one for the simple reason that it isn't in their vision or ability. Another failed state like Lebanon isn't in our interests, we need viable countries on our borders that have some kind of governance and law. They don't have the Right Stuff. I understand you want separation, but they don't, they still fantasize about an end to the Jewish State of Israel and are unable to accept our presence as free men in our own home. They have done NOTHING to work towards statehood and have shown NO national will. There is no plan for construction, just destruction. The Province Plan that has been mentioned is the only realistic way to arrive at a two state solution. It is too clear and workable for any arabist apologist here to consider as it gets them supposedly what they want, an independent country.

"God sends disasters on american soil...one example was Katrina." This is scary stuff. I remember when Shas Rabbi Ovadia Yosef said in September 2005 that God sent Katrina because the residents of New Orleans have no God, they do not study the Torah: "Black people (=Cushites) reside there...let's bring a tsunami and drown them." Earlier, in March 2005, Rabbi Ovadia pronounced "pulsa d'nura" on Sharon for the disengagement from Gaza: "Let God strike him down." Rabbi Ovadia also added: "He will sleep and never wake up." And that is what happened to Sharon. By the way, Pat Robertson prophesied last January that there would be a massive terrorist attack on US soil in the latter part of 2007--NOW! Millions of Americans would die. Maybe that will be the punishment for Condi's remarks about creating a Palestinian state. Scary and eerie.

"It [Nation Building] requires consensus. It requires representative leadership. It requires a constitution. A parliament. It requires laws about kidnapping, about shelling school children, about provoking its neighbours. It requires infrastructure.' (Our Star) Using your criteria, is Israel a 'nation" yet? let's check: * Consensus - seen any lately? * Representative leadership - ask anyone in the streets of Tel Aviv or haifa how represented they feel * Parliament - guess you can call it that on a good day * Laws - prohibit kidnapping and shelling school children only if they are your own. Otherwise, it's permissible. * Provoking its neighbours - every chance you get * Infrastructure - work in progress? muchly... So, TB star, does this sound (even vaguely) like a [proper Jewish] state? So, perhaps it time to shed your star turn and reveal your true stripes? Regards, Stars & Stripes forever... yours truly (the [real] landlord).

ohhhh yeahhh Bubby Janice throws down again and tries to cash in on pedigree to make a point. Oh my this is the same bubby who doesn't cry for jewish children, the same bubby who has never bothered to reply to a core question that was asked of her which is the following. What would have been of "occupied Israel" had the combined Arab armies succeeded in their goal when Israel was born. Bubby Janice hehe, right. Bubby was so proud in 1948 according to her past posts and it wasn't until '67 that she "realized" how terrible it was that Israel survived. Bubby Janice doesn't wonder why there was no arab state declared when Egypt and Jordan held Yesha. Bubby Janice never looks at arab responsibility and accountability because Bubby Janice.....is no Bubby, just another arabist apologist.

New echelon of leaders needed This, however, does not mean that Israel has no option but to go back to the negotiating table, and to chase after the illusory mirage of a ?political solution.? After all, since October 2000, following Palestinian rejection of the far-reaching and reckless concessionary offers made by the Barak government, after the disastrous debacle of disengagement, and after the uncompromising insistence on the Palestinian ?right of return,? it has become undeniably clear to the Israeli public (apart from some eccentric and fanatical left wing fringe-groups) that what fuels the fires of Arab-Israeli conflict is not the lack of Palestinian self-determination but the existence of Jewish self-determination ? no matter what the territorial frontiers may be. Accordingly, if on the one hand the Palestinians cannot be induced to give up their violence by any reasonably conceivable concessions, and on the other hand they cannot be induced to do so by the threat of any reasonably conceivable punitive measures, there appear to be only two ways to bring the fighting to an end. The one involves total capitulation to Palestinian demands and unmitigated acceptance of all their claims. The significance of this option is the complete renouncement of the Zionist ideal of a sovereign Jewish state for the people of Israel in the Land of Israel. For it is virtually indisputable that the adoption of this course would result in a state that would very quickly find itself swallowed up in the social, economic and political environment that prevails in the region, and would soon become indistinguishable from any other of the surrounding states in the ?precinct.? The second alternative involves acknowledging the fact that Israel has no acceptable way to diminish the Palestinian will to attack it, and thus must eliminate the Palestinian ability to do so ? by speedy and decisive conquest of the areas transferred to Palestinian control, the dismantling of all the political and military organizations and infrastructures established since the Oslo Agreements, and the reinstatement of effective Israeli sovereign rule from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. This is undoubtedly a course of action fraught with many hazards. Its implementation requires meeting many daunting challenges and overcoming many serious obstacles that cannot be lightly dismissed. It will call for huge diplomatic and political efforts, and place the national leadership under the most stringent of tests ? tests that are probably well beyond the mettle of the present political cadre masquerading as "leaders." It will require the Jewish people to generate from within it a new echelon of leaders made of sterner stuff, leadership with greater intellectual prowess, greater national commitment, greater moral integrity, and greater political foresight. It is not a question of whether this is possible or not. For if the Jews still desire to preserve their national independence and the political sovereignty of the Jewish nation-state, there is no other alternative. This then is the cruel choice on the national agenda: The Jews can either capitulate to the Palestinian national movement - or conquer it. It is a choice that must be made urgently. Any belief in a more moderate, less radical option is no more than misguided self-delusion.

Martin Sherman Published: 10.15.07, 21:04 / Israel Opinion In a recent article entitled "Making the enemy think twice" Guy Bechor bewails the apparent impotence of the Israeli government in dealing with the unrelenting Palestinian violence against Israel. Although Bechor makes some valid points in his piece, aptly pointing out that to date past Israeli policies have been characterized by "passiveness, perpetuation of the status quo, lack of initiative, and constant fear" rather than the necessary "activism, initiative, fearlessness, and leadership," what he advocated as a remedy for terminating Palestinian attacks on Israel is unfortunately "too little too late". The essence of Bechor's suggestion is to resurrect Israel's flagging deterrent posture, by establishing an escalating punitive price tag, so that the penalty for every hostile act will be known. Prime facie, the proposal is not totally unconvincing. However, a brief analysis of the basic arithmetic of the Israeli-Arab conflict and its history will quickly underscore that the kind of measures proposed by Bechor will be sadly ineffectual in halting Palestinian violence. During Israel's War of Independence, the newly founded Jewish nation, infused with a resolute sense of purpose, was not swayed from its aspiration to achieve its political objective - despite the tremendous casualties the pursuit of this aspiration demanded of it. Thus, in spite of the fact that the Jewish population numbered barely 600,000, even the terrible loss of 6,000 dead did not deter it from pursuing its goal. Accordingly, under the eminently plausible assumption that the Jewish sensitivity to loss of life then was not less than Palestinian sensitivity is today, there is little reason to suppose that the Palestinians, clearly infused with a resolute sense of purpose, will be deterred from endeavoring to attain their national goal - even at the cost of great suffering. Indeed, if the Palestinians are prepared to endure the same rate of casualties that Israelis were prepared to absorb in the 1940s, even inflicting losses of 30,000 dead on them will not make them give up their armed struggle against Israel. So were the IDF to exact costs far in excess of those proposed by Bechor, the chances are that they would still be ineffectual in quelling Palestinian violence. This comparison underscores the utter futility of limited Israeli military measures of any kind. It shows quite unequivocally that targeted assassinations, demolition of houses, and temporary invasions of Palestinian administered territories will never induce the Palestinian to lay down their arms - even if Israel were to escalate these types of measures to levels presently undreamed of.

Concluding that anti-Zionism is the logical outgrowth of Islamic faith is wrong. This conclusion represents the false transformation of Islam from a religion into a secularized ideology. Such a false transformation of Islam was in fact made by the late Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini. He is the one person most responsible, both morally and materially, for the repeated Arab defeats in their conflict with the Jews in Israel. Husseni not only incited Arabs against Jews. He also encouraged the torture and murder of all Arabs who correctly understood that Arab cooperation with Jews was a precious opportunity for the development of the Land of Israel. Husseini ended his woeful life by putting his perverted religious teachings at the service of the evil and pagan Nazis. After Husseini came Jamal al-Din 'Abd al-Nasser. Nasser based his policy on Pan-Arabism, hatred and contempt for Jews, and an alliance with the atheistic Soviet Union. Nasser's terrible choices were critical factors in maintaining Arab backwardness. Fortunately, most of Nasser's mistakes were afterward corrected by the martyr Anwar Sadat. (3) After the defeat of Nasserianism, Islamic fundamentalist movements made anti-Zionism the primary feature of their propaganda. They presented the negation of any Jewish rights to the Land of Israel as rooted in authentic Islam and derived from authentic Islamic religious principles.

One grandfather left Russia after the pogroms. He could have gone to Palestine but chose to go the the US because he was not a Zionist. Another grandfather and his parents were born here. One grandmother came from Lithuania as a small child and my other grandmother was also born here. As far as I recall, none of my grandparents or my parents ever expessed any sort of desire to live in Israel nor did they ever say that it is "our" land. As I said, they were proud of being Jewish but they were not Zionists.

Peter Enough mentioning her name three times. With that hateful core of hers,is enough for some of us here to makes us want to puke! Just let her and ISMERS continue with their mantra and the inexcusable ignorance. That she is a stupid as they aome,plus the biggest hypocrite among those of her clique. Nuff Said

Is there any fundamental reason which prohibits Muslims from recognizing Israel as a friendly State? I realize that a negative answer to the above question is taken for granted by popular opinion. My approach, however, is not based on popular opinion or the current political situation, but on a theological analysis of authentic Islamic sources. Viewing the Jewish return to Israel as a Western invasion and Zionists as recent colonizers is new. It has no basis in authentic Islamic faith. According to the Qur'an, no person, people or religious community can claim a permanent right of possession over any territory. The Earth belongs exclusively to God, and He is free to entrust sovereignty over land to whomever He likes for whatever time period that He chooses. "Say: 'O God, King of the kingdom (1), Thou givest the kingdom to whom Thou pleasest, and Thou strippest off the kingdom from whom Thou pleasest; Thou endowest with honour whom Thou pleasest, and Thou bringest low whom Thou pleasest: all the best is in Thy hand. Verily, Thou hast power over all things.'"(2) [Qur'an 3:26] From the above Qur'anic verse we deduce a basic principle of the Monotheistic philosophy of history: God chooses as He likes in the relationship between peoples and countries. Sometimes He gives a land to a people, and sometimes He takes His possession back and gives it to another people. In general, we can say that He gives as a reward for faithfulness and takes back as a punishment for wickedness, but this rule does not permit us to say that God's ways are always plain and clear to our eyes, since His secrets are inaccessible to the human intellect. Using Islam as a basis for preventing Arabs from recognizing any sovereign right of Jews over the Land of Israel is new. Such beliefs are not found in classical Islamic sources.

Janice, Iwas born in the US many years before you. When we were in school the the school authorities tried to 'brainwash' us into thinking that America was our country. My parents were equally 'brainwashed'. however 1948 changed all that. All through the war years I dreamed of a Jewish army and a Jewish air force defeating Nazi Germany. I didn't know then of the 'Jewish Brigade' However then as I said, it was 1948. Suddenly we were a people again, not just a religious minority. We had our own state with all the symbols of sovereignty. When Ben-Gurion caled the state 'Medinat Israel', State of Israel, he meant 'Israel' as being a synonym for the entire Jewish people. It's toobad the the new young American Jewish 'left still remains so brainwashed in to thinking that Amercia istheir country and they are giving up their birthright as soverign in their land where ancient Judea , the predecessor to the State of Israel is forgotton.

Would you care to give us the name of this "renowned historian"?

Isn`t it so ; -the only true jordanians, are the bedouins, ruled by the Hashemites ? Don`t the bedouin consider themselves to be arab ? -The Washemite Kingdom of Jordan is the ONLY arab nation, which has done right by their palestinian arab brethren & given them jordanian citizenship ! -So both PAL`s & jordanians are arab, nachon ?

Hi Clikfool, I just wish I had read that before I sent my response to Polybios. "May I have a go, Polybios? Abbas is a brown-nosing, arse-kissing Israeli Uncle Tom, a creep, a jellyfish of a man, a traiotr to his people. His cabinet are a bunch of nobodies, an unelected, faceless pack of head-nodding toadies and lickspittles. Will that do?" Keep up the good work. Regards

"Hamas`s charter and the PLO`s charter both lay out for us what their aim is. The only state they want is from the river to the sea." Can you point me to the official english language copies of these documents, the Hamas and the PLO Charters? I would appreciate it if someone can provide solid, authoritative information about the actual documents. Michael Hess, Editor, BBSNews http://bbsnews.net

Well Polybios I have not heard from you for a while.Last time if I recall correctly you are trying to convince me that the Palestinians were ruked by Israeli Laws in the Territories.Did you ever resolve that.Again ,the are governed by Jordanian laws.That is what happens in Occupied territories.Do a little research. The truth will free you. Now about single minded bias, If Israel will remove some of the obstacles such as settlemnet expansion and a few other so called confidence boosting measures(house demolition/asassinations/collective punishment etc etc). and the Palestinians continue their activities I will condemn them. Does that meet with your satisfactiion.

A dear friend of mine who is a renowned historian was asked why, as a Jew, he criticizes Israel. His response was that because he is a Jew he feels that it is his duty. I agree with him 100%.

How many generations has your family been in the US?

It's good to know that what we did was remembered by someone. Mandela deliberately ignores the fact that his white friends in South Africa were always Jews because it's politically more expedient for him. It's there in the history books and the newspapers of the time for all to read, though history books will doubtless be rewritten by revisionists.

Compromising on handing over to them Sderot, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Beer-Sheeba, Kyriat-Gat, Netivot, just as a precondition of bringing them to the table.

Thanks for yours. Indeed you are right, and Peres is another.... had a lot to do with the 'Pollard Case' and if he would only speak up,Jonathan would be freed but then Peres will be seen in his true colours....!so Peres comes first.

Hello Danite, You are pro Israeli & a liberal, therefore you sometimes step on opposite toes (in good humor) However if you see both sides of the coin, mistakes as well as twists & con artistry of malicious Israeli basher, Arab appeasers & other dangers facing Israel, you are good in my book on any given day. Technically Mark is absolutely correct here. But he will never give you the truly non bias answer to your question either, because as it will support some of his ideology & believes, it will expose much more of what he never wants to be exposed (definitely not by him). We are in between the badly needed peace & (thanks to the Arab world) gigantic gap of at least several generations in possibility to arrive at this peace, even partially genuinly & naturally. The only answer currently remains is artificial or forced peace, therefore the questions are always who can be conned & forced, where, how, how far & similar. You see how appealing or appalling daily it can be to people?

In the end with all the bloodshed, hatred, rejection, incitement, terrorism, propaganda, billions of aid from the entire world, Arabs are much worse off and a 23rd Arab/65th Muslim state utopia is farther away then ever. On the other hand Israel the party that genuinely wanted Peace keeps making progress on its own despite all difficulties in this Geopolitically charged and backward region of the world. This Israel does with very little natural resources except for the quality and humanity of its citizens. This conference is doomed to fail again because of Arab intransigence and stubborn insistence for maximum demands regardless of what it will do to the condition of their people.

Moshe Dayan perceived Jewish (vs. Israeli) ascendancy to be a bigger threat to his way of life than the Arabs, and so he gave control of the Temple Mount to the Muslim Waqf. So too Haaretz.

Maria, my dear, I am Jewish. My parents were Jewish as were my grandparents and great-grandparents and as are my children. I do not believe that Israel is my land. My land is where I was born, the United States of America. Because certain people think that I have a right to the land in Istael does not make it so. My parents did not feel that way and neither did my grandparents, none of whom thought of themselves as Zionists but were extraordinarily proud of being Jewish. They did not believe that because a few Zionists decided back in the late 1800s that the Jews should have a homeland in Palestine where another people were already living that it meant that the land belonged to all the Jews. I share their beliefs. And, guess what Maria. That belief is also shared by my friends who are also Jewish. I don't want to "give away my" land to the Palestinians. I want them to have back what was taken from them or to receive compensation for being dispossessed.

Imagine what would have happened had Israel and US had the good sense to work with the Hamas Unity Government after its formation. Gaza of course would not have been detached from the West Bank without Hamas needing to fear a coup. But there would have been far better positive consequences: 1. Hamas suggested a cease fire in the West Bank (in addition to Gaza). In return, it pledged to impose it on the smaller terror groups. Abbas also made the pledge. Had this been done, Hamas and Fatah for the first time would have shown an ability to suppress terror. This is important for Israeli confidence in a peace deal, which now is non-existent. 2. Hamas was moderating its stand all along (as a result of international pressure), and started talking about the two state solution as their final objective. They agreed to Abbas negotiating with Israel and having a referendum on the deal. With Hamas having finally agreed to the 2-states, there would have been little danger of missiles from the West Bank. This is what is killing the real peace prospects today. In short, by bringing Hamas into the process, there could have been a realistic peace agreement, while now it can be done only in Dreamland. It is not too late. I suggest the Saudis insist on this as a condition for participation in the Bush peace charade. What will help is that the Italian Prime Minister already suggests this, as well as some British MP`s and all Arab countries. If Rice has a brain, she should pressure Olmert to do encourage an Abbas-Hamas reconciliation. But we know that this is beyond her imagination.

"Olmert is aliar and a thief and really must be replaced by someone woth a shred of decency. Now, your turn. Let`s hear an honest criticism of anything in the PA." May I have a go, Polybios? Abbas is a brown-nosing, arse-kissing Israeli Uncle Tom, a creep, a jellyfish of a man, a traiotr to his people. His cabinet are a bunch of nobodies, an unelected, faceless pack of head-nodding toadies and lickspittles. Will that do?

Silvienne Stop being naive on behalf of LABHRAS, Read what she writs, She thinks that every one coming from South Africa is a Racist she should go and do her homework and you to for protecting her on this issue, Jews in South Africa played notable roles in the anti-apartheid movement. She for one should start looking up the names Mr. Harry Oppenheimer & Mrs. Helen Suzman that comes to mind! For your knowledge and your ignorant friend Labhras Though Jews accounted for only 2.5% of South Africa's white population and 0.3% of South Africa's total population, many Jews played notable roles in the anti-apartheid movement. For example, when 156 political leaders arrested on December 5, 1956, more than half of the whites arrested were Jewish. They were charged with high treason resulting in the Treason Trial which lasted from 1956-1960. And, all of the whites initially charged in the 1963 Rivonia Trial were Jewish. Margie may be modest but Jews of SA have nothing to be ashamed of!

A fresh look,and a change of direction is needed.All kinds of gathering tried a failed. Nothing has changed.The problems and the questions are the same.The only never ending change, more increase in blood and tears. Isn't that enough proof that the old medicin in NOT working? For how long we need to try it again ? Enough is Enough as the saying goes. The diagnosis shows the same symptoms.There is 'absence of Palestinian Leadership'.The whole Palestinians reign of power abandoned to the Street. No language but guns everywhere.It is now only a matter of self-defence for both Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinians are doomed without leadership. Time to bring a new blood.A leadership that has the historic responsibility to this conflict. The country that stands on a Palestinian land. Jordan must be 'welcomed' to 'involve'.There is no time better than now.There is no better place for this Grand gathering than Aman. Great Jordan+Great Israel=Great future-QED

Ok Nigel, the settlements make peace impossible and it's clear to you that Israel only wants land. Tell me, why is Israel only "expanding" on 2% of ALL of Yesha??? Why isn't Israel "expanding" on to 98% of Yesha? If all Israel wants is land why doesn't she just round up all the arabs in Yesha and throw them out of Yesha? Israel doesn't have the means to do it??? Of course she does, and afternoon of controlled bombing would disperse and send them running or burying them. Oh that wouldn't do? Whew tell that to the folks in Darfur and Rwanda.

The longer time goes on the harder to establish a palestinian state, this makes a one state solution grow stronger.Peter , expecting to keep the Pals in some kind of stasis untill they can be unfrozen in the year 2525 when they have morphed into sweeden is just not reality.We have to deal with them as they are.

Adnan al-Husseini, an adviser to PA chairman Abbas said in an interview with the Israeli newspaper Maariv (sorry Haaretz) that Palestinians now want control over the Kotel HaMaaravi, the Western Wall, as it is part of the Al-Aqsa mosque! Where will it stop?

We will not attempt to argue the Editorial`s resolution what far right, Jewish & Christian lobbies did (is there a place to improvise `Bush & his neocons` into it, but only strictly out of my respect to MarkLincolnian theories of evolution) in a 60 years of `nasty Pal oppression` because of... (you feel in the blank, lots of good, juicy stuff available). Yes, enough is enough, to hell with all the radical Islam. We can ignore it if we want to, deal with it when we want to. Just the thought of how angry the radical Islam will get if the conference fails, drives Editorial insane. Israel for `sanity` may be pricey but necessary tradeoff. The grim, sorrow faces will help with purifying the soul, the king & his fool building nice fairytale castle in the sky on the suddenly expedited steps of the historical, self gloating, image changing gates only helps to mask the rest. Let build the castle & worry about everything latter. If it will crumble, it will crumble on someone else`s head anyway.

Your post implies that Esther condones the settlements. From reading her posts over the past few months, I hardly believe that she considers the settlement expansion as anything but illegal. From her previous posts, I believe that she represents one of the finest Israelis ... who truly want peace ... and NOT LAND. And I'd be surprised whether she would consider "giving up" any settlement as being a "concession", as the Ha'aretz article boldly says.

Q1 How much had Editorial `put into Rice`s mouth`, or to be more precise `understood` & related further as `what they understood` from Rice`s talk that they really, badly wanted to hear & understand? Maybe nothing at all, just curious. Q2 How comforting for Editorial it must have been to know that all Israeli ministers CAN be `hoarded` together to make them understand & embrace `the unity the right way`? The Muslim world, of course had been united from the beginning in seeing & making sure only Israeli `unifications` will bring about the Pal state.

Polybios I cannot rememeber to the person I responded. We know the Hamas charter.As for Fatah the person I addressed it to,who had asked,and I reminded him of course that Abass most probably knows about the said charter(so obvious)and Abass is keeping quiet about it. Of course it is the core issue.Precisely that,and they have not rescinded from what it implies.And we know it stems from the "Muslim Brotherhood".I don't remember saying anything contrary to that sorry. Satisfied Polybios dear friend..

hehe he continues to drag others down to his depths still full of innuendo and unable to respond. Big surprise of course considering that he's guided by his rabid anti-semitism and nothing else. The envy and jealousy apparent in his postings as he never offers solutions, never offers anything constructive, seeking only to satisfy his bloodlust.

America doesn't want that. But Bush/Rice & Co. may just be stupid and arrogant enough to forget to prevent it, what with all the self-generated excitement and hype.

"For them Israel has no fault." "It's those awful Palestinians who are the cause, whole cause, and nothing but the cause..." So..you're complaining that they're mirror images of yourself? Here, I'll start by criticizing the Israeli government: Olmert is aliar and a thief and really must be replaced by someone woth a shred of decency. Now, your turn. Let's hear an honest criticism of anything in the PA. Or is single-minded bias ok for you, but not for a anyone else?

THEN, finally ; we have the question of our capital, Yerushalayim : this place is MUCH MORE than a place of worship for us, -it`s THE eternal national symbol for the whole jewish nation, therefore she must remain in israeli hands, period. This is also why many on our adversaries side is seeking to deny us our most important national symbol, our city of hearts ! The arabs already got, -not one but two(2) cities of larger importance to them than Yerushalayim, Mecka & Medina. Why should we jews be the only ones, of whom the world demands that we share what little we got, -In the name of justice, why can`t the arabs share and agree to give us our national symbol, and tiny slab of land considering the enormous territories they already posess for themselves. -OR is it like Golda Meir once said ; "It won`t be peace between us & the arabs, until they learn to love their own children more than they hate us" ? -ask Hannah, Lakshmi, Labhras & their likeminded.....!

Except you can find that on Arabians map like also there is not Arabians Gulf on the world map but there is on Arabians map (Persian Gulf)

False attitudes, my backside--You've clearly stated your position time and again--So far, you've been an actor in the gay theatre, way, way off Broadway, without much success, a tour guide in Israel, claim to have been a teacher, an alleged convert to Judaism (nobody knows who performed the "conversion", a soldier in the IDF, you've claim to have done more things than Heinz has varieties---Last but not least, a paid Arab propagandist with an Arab room mate..Have I missed anything???

the mess she created in Iraq---Bush is desperate to leave some sort of heritage, other than turning everything he puts his hands in turning to crap---He'll spare no expense, no matter who pays---

Imagine what would have happened had Israel and US had the good sense to work with the Hamas Unity Government after its formation. Gaza of course would not have been detached from the West Bank without Hamas needing to fear a coup. But there would have been far better positive consequences: 1. Hamas suggested a cease fire in the West Bank (in addition to Gaza). In return, it pledged to impose it on the smaller terror groups. Abbas also made the pledge. Had this been done, Hamas and Fatah for the first time would have shown an ability to suppress terror. This is important for Israeli confidence in a peace deal, which now is non-existent. 2. Hamas was moderating its stand all along (as a result of international pressure), and started talking about the two state solution as their final objective. They agreed to Abbas negotiating with Israel and having a referendum on the deal. With Hamas having finally agreed to the 2-states, there would have been little danger of missiles from the West Bank. This is what is killing the real peace prospects today. In short, by bringing Hamas into the process, there could have been a realistic peace agreement, while now it can be done only in Dreamland. It is not too late. I suggest the Saudis insist on this as a condition for participation in the Bush peace charade. What will help is that the Italian Prime Minister already suggests this, as well as some British MP`s and all Arab countries. If Rice has a brain, she should pressure Olmert to do encourage an Abbas-Hamas reconciliation. But we know that this is beyond her imagination.

All the Americans President since re-establishment of State of Israel has tried to divide that land but they never could achieve that. As matter of fact that the President Truman which had have convinced the pre Minister Ben Gurion to accepted the resolution of 1948 for divided of Jewish State but Ben Gurion in his mind never accept that idea and has been waiting for other opportunity to take back our land from Jordanian occupier and in the six days war of 1967 which Israel has been defeated her Arabs enemies and have freed E Jerusalem and W.B fro ever. This land will never divide again and this American and Israel leftist wrong policy will fall again .By the way Jordan is the Palestinians State Long life to State of Israel

the USA is a large place, with many people. There's probably one person in this country that corresponds to each nationality in the world. And they'd like to wipe them off the map. The thing about that is.. we don't elect them President! We just consider them loonies.

Because Nigel, the WB is disputed and its borders undefined. Officially it belongs to the State of Israel since-94, when Jordan renounced her claims to it. Jordan lost the WB to Israel in -67 war. The Jordanian Pals, whom Jordan refused to receive and to re-settle in Jordan proper after the war, live there. In Israel, like in an any democratic country, people are free to live where-ever they choose to live.

I absolutely agree. No matter how logical, sensible, understanding you try to be... there can be no explanation to the settlements other than that Israel is a greedy nation that just wants to grab as much land as possible before it's too late. This is clearly indicated by the following quote from Sharon: ?Everybody has to move; run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay ours. Everything we don't grab will go to them.? Ariel Sharon

Incidentally I established yesterday that here you can refer to Arabs/Palestinians as being (like) animals, but if you say the same about Jews it will be censored. Vile racist abuse of Arabs/Palestinians is OK here. Wonder why?