U.S. is blind to limits of Palestinian politics

But then what is the end game of the conflict? If you've given up on the Palestinian state, then the land is Israel's - then so are it's residents. Then the treatment of the Palestinians is the treatment of Israeli citizens - and a state has a responsibility to look after its citizens.

"What exactly is illegal about settlements?" (sean) Israeli settlements, in the midst of an occupied foreign stateless people ARE illegal because the entire world, including our only ally, says they are. Illegal. "Settlers are not the main reason for lack of peace." (sean) Of course they are. Settlements, in the midst of an occupied population bring with them the perpetuation of the occupation, and ruin the prospect for a viable Palestinian state. As long as there is occupation, there can be no Palestinian state. No Palestinian state, no peace nor security for Israel. What here is so hard to grasp?

The land is too small to divide between enemies. The Palestinian leadership can strike out on a new policy, western, enlightened, in harmony with positive Islam, and not muslim fundamentalism, and the respectability will lead to a merger, the Israeli Prime Minister, and the Palestinian Prime Ministers can work under a united Israeli president.

You are completely wrong amd Sean is right. Israel won those territories in defensive wars. Arabs rejected the UN partion of British mandated Palestine and they wage three wars, all with one intention in mind: destroy Israel and eliminate all Jews. Why then should Israel let go of those territories? The so called "Palestinians" will never accept Israel even if Israel cleared all the West Bank settlements! Just ask Hamas (and even Fatah) what their ultimate goal is: Nothing less than the destruction of all Israel. Israelis would be FOOLS if they give back the West Bank settlements.

I'm afraid it's time to back away from old friends...particularly ones that refuse to go along with the need to have trustworthy agreements and be worthy world citizens. I believe the Israelis have basked under the umbrella of American defense agreements and arms support too long. Their recalcitrance in facing the realities of the idea of fairness toward their neighbors makes them a true liability. They're no longer children requiring parental support. It's time to let them go and suffer the consequences of their decisions. America should stand back and hold them accountable for their actions.

as it is, Israel enjoys peace. Why rock the boat? Glad these old terrorists aren't talking. Silence is golden. There seems to be no profit for them but to remain a silent partner in crime. After all, what other terrorists groups get as much money as they? For them, it must be more profitable than having their own state. So, Gaza's it. Enjoy. And before anyone says Israel shouldn't get US aid, I say fine, as long as the Pals don't either. See who lasts longest. My money's on Israel, all the way. So are the majority of Americans.

why can't Israeli's settle where they choose in Israel? Somethings wrong w/ American policy that refuses to allow one Jew to build in Israel, while allowing Muslim Iran to build a nuclear bomb. American's are disgusted w/ Obama's strong arming our best ally in the world, Israel. Next time, American's will give their votes to any one but Obama.

s: "What exactly is illegal about settlements?" They are built on territory that is held under an Israeli military occupation. They are built to house Israeli citizens who are transferring FROM Israel onot territory that is occupied BY Israel. Or, put another way, they are an attempt by Israel to colonize IDF-occupied territory. That is illegal, because occupiers aren't entitled to colonize occupied territory. That's just the way it is. It didn't use to be this way, but it is now. Didn't you know that?

Palestinians are a victim of Arab governments who keep them as refugees rather than absorb them, which they can easily do. The UN voted, Arabs rejected, they aimed to destroy Jews and pour them into the sea, they lost, and the land that settlers are taking was won with blood of heroes. Palestinians better look for homes with their brethren. Anyhow, settlers are not the main reason for lack of peace. Arab extremism is.

What the US has asked of Israel or of the Palestinians was only conveyed behind closed doors. You only know what has been leaked to the press by lying political operatives intent on their own version, not objective facts. If Mitchell can talk to Likud and Lieberman, he should be able to talk to anybody on the other side too. Maybe that would wake you and Netanyahu up. The US couldn't be more divided over policy anyway. No risk to Obama.

The idea of 2 states is dead and the struggle for nationhood should end and should be replaced with a struggle for equality and civic rights. That is the only way to end this conflict forever.

Look, it has be a while since the Intifadas, and only a few dozen missiles have been launched from Gaza. This is meaningful. Progress. It means the checkpoints can be dismantled. It means the barrier can come down. It means no more airport security procedures, and the pilots can again fly with the cockpit door open. Don't you all get it? The ME problem is over. Let's all join hands, jump in a tub of warm jello and hug one another.

Israel must understand, regardless of its seemingly ignoring US efforts to stop the expansion of the settlements, that one day the US government will decide that its foreign policy will not be made in Israel, but in Washington. That day mmay not be far away.

Both of your ideas are a total non-starter. I do not know of any political party in Israel, left or right, that would even consider anything remotely close to what you propose.

I think that Sharon was trying to save himself in proposing to evacuate Gush Katif. Olmert undertook that operation w/everyone including Rabbi Ovadia Yosef agreeing. Now Yishai and Shas vow to fight tooth and nail for Jerusalem. The New Year is soon upon us, and thereafter Kippur. The Days of Awe,, Yomaim Norayim. Hamas got its share, and so did Fatah, which mostly rules the West Bank. Fayyad lives in East Jerusalem. One cannot reinvent the wheel.

There will never be any understanding between Israel and the Palestinians as long as the Palestinians and their naive Western appologists continue to disbelieve facts and history in favor of the collection of myths called the "Palestinian narrative." For an example of a commmonly repeated myth, from an above post,"Palestinians, the rightful owners of the land who occupied it long before the Israelis arrived in the 20th century." Not a word of that is true, as it was Ottoman owned land until 1917, the ancestors of todays Palestinians migrated in as a response to the Zionists who began migrated back to pre-state Israel well before the 20th century, and it was never "Palestinian land", most of whom did not even own the land that they share cropped. Everyone is entitled to their own unique opinions but Palestinians seem to insist on their own unique facts as well!

the real problem of course is that no-one in so-called Israel or the US will admit that Israel is not real. It is nothing more than squatters from all over the world stealing from the Palestinians and then expecting the Palestinians to say thank you for stealing my land, killing my family and cutting the throats of my sheep.

America openly states its demand that Israel withdraw from territory. Yet no one openly states that the "refugees" can not and will not "return."

Jordan Palestine denies Jewish land ownership and citizenship. Walf daily desecrate the HOly of Holies. When the Arab world respects other people there will be peace. Thats the real Middle Eastern Problem.

Forcibly round up the illegal settlers and violent religious extremists from the Palestinian WB and move them back to Israel - it is that simple. Israel has proven twice before that this is quite possible. Sure the settlers will wail and rent sackcloth but that is all they will do. The sky won't come crashing down and Israel, as a whole, will not be 'traumatized'. Granted most of these illegal settlers will probably end up in the Negev Desert as Secular Israel will want nothing to do with them. Either way removing the illegal settlers is the first step to establishing peace with the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab World. America/Obama is not so 'blind' not to understand this point. The only 'blind' party here is Bibi's government.

Then the Israelis and the Palestinians can be sorted out accordingly and never the twain shall meet forevermore under the penalty of death by small-arms fire if anyone on either side tries to cross the border without permission from the other side.

Move the Great Wall to the '67 borders. Palestinian citizenship for the settlers. All 500,000 of them. 500,000 Palestinian refugees to Israel proper. Peace. Salaam/Shalom

What was done in the historical past with conquests of the region by Roman, Ottoman, Arab conquests, etc. is irrelevant to today's populations of Palestinians and Israelis coexisting in the region. The fact remains that the region is legitimate to both peoples since from an anthropological point of view, the cultures which inhabited the region for centuries, in the West Bank predominantly Muslims but also Jews and Christians, have connection to the region. Now the negotiated two state proposals is to recognize that the territorial compromises of retaining the large settlement blocs and exchanging land from Israel proper, thus accommodating some settlers staying in the West Bank. At this time without borders finalized, is it not a provoking gesture to insist that Jews have a right to continue settling in Biblical Israel? Well, if one insists upon this, why not insist as well to settle in Syria and Iraq since these regions were part of ancient Israel or proclaimed to be?

Your relatives, when they founded Shamir, never envisioned that the Jewish state to-be would become the only democratic country to rule over a foreign and stateless people, nor were they dreaming about a country extending from the sea to the Jordan river, where a Jewish minority is ruled by an Arab prime minister. (see #12) "The Six-Day War was forced upon us; however, the war's seventh day, which began on June 12, 1967 and has continued to this day, is the product of our choice. We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft, and finding justification for all these activities." in "The war's seventh day", Haaretz March 3, 2002, by Michael Ben-Yair, former Attorney General of Israel (1993-1996). www.seruv.org.il/english/article.asp?msgid=77&type=article

I completely agree with you. At least one comentator is stating the right words.

Yes Israel can move all settlers out of occupied lands by disconnecting electricty, water, telephone and gas. It is a 1 2 3 job. If the settlers choose to stay after the creation of a Palestinian state they will considered as intruders living in illegimat homes.

Big mistake. The inhabitants of these 'large Arab settlements' have already clearly expressed their fierce opposition to such a scheme. They are all Israeli citizens, and there is no way Israel could force them to accept it - without being castigated by the entire world, for stripping them of their citizenship, just for being of the 'wrong' faith.

I think maybe it's time the US backs out as peace broker for a while. If peace is to come between Israel and the Palastinians, they need to sit down and do it. The US has no concept of how this part of the world deals with eachother. They have been trying long enough. Russia, EU, US, UN all need to back off, no influence from Syria, Iran, Lebanon, strictly between Israel and the Palastinians. First Hamas and Fatah need to form a govt that represents the Palastinian people before they can have peace. You can't negotiate with two govt's for one state.

Freezing settlement building does not endanger Israel's security in any way. So why not do it? The reason is that it transcends the limits of Israeli's politics.

Why are you so concerned that American officials should be able to understand and fight for the arab side? are you an israeli?

It was my turn t chuckle when I read the line about US negotiators arriving to peace talks unarmed.. A more accurate description sadly would be "dis-armed"... As in dis-armed by the US Israeli lobby which takes away every American president's ability to do whats best for America - namely establish peace in the middle east.. because this requires him being able to force concessions from BOTH sides. The only way to force Israel is credible threat of drastic cut or suspension of financial and military aid & cooperation, period. And the Israeli lobby is far too powerful & too right wing to let that happen. Peace is in the best interest of both Israel and the US. But they do not believe this and continue to act in betrayal of both nations welfare. The

This so-called peace process is a mockery of catastrophic proportions. The Obama administration will never apply the kind of pressure required to get this moving in a more positive and encouraging direction. It's all posturing on the US side. It will come down to Palestinians taking matters into their own hands.

And what happened to Spain immediately the reconquista was achieved? Or perhaps one should better ask you what happened to Spain's Jews? Spain's legitimacy in the community of nations was reestablished when it recognized its debt to its Muslim (and Jewish) components and began to learn to tolerate difference rather than suppressing it. We still have a long way to go there. Bomb shelter children: they've moved to Sderot so nothing's changed there. You're not the only one who remembers the run-up to the 1967 war. Some of us other readers are not entirely ignorant of bomb shelters or the way you have to reach them when the pressure's on either.

Of course large settlement blocks will stay with Israel, while Palestinians will receive other land from Israel proper as compensation (possibly land with large Arab settlements). Out of 500,000 Israelis living outside 1967 borders about 400,000 won't have to move anywhere.

US foreign policy for the last 20 years has been disastrous, and self-defeating. US policy makers in the Middle East have been serving Iranian interests. I just hope they are compensated well by the Iranians for their services.

economic boycott on Israel.I any peace negotiation proess it takes two to tango. from the outside the peace process is very distorted on one side, the Palestinians not giving in an inch and a large swath,in fact an absolute majority of Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel as a jewish stat, vote for terror actions and extreme leadership lie Hamas and make many public statement that the Green Line border would be only an interim stage in the final removal of Israel from ME map. On the other hand , the Israeli side is still tremautized by WWII assault on Jewish peole by Nazis while th world stood by and got drawn into WWII only after Nazi Germany attacked every country in Europe except Switzerland which was the Nazi banking system to deposit stolen ealth and buy raw material for Nazi war machinery. Mamber nations of UN know this despite the frantic attempts by Moslm countries and its allies,especialy left of center organizations and when electeds to govern. Boycott want work

My relatives were among the founding families of Kibbutz Shamir. Before 1967, he would jump off of his tractor when the Syrian bullets got close. My cousin crawled to the bomb shelter after an attached house to theirs was blown up. The children that were born between 1948 and 1967 in the northern Galilee were known as "bomb shelter children". I was 13 preparing for my Bar Mitzvah and remember the panic that gripped our Synagogue of an impending holocaust. Read Michael Oren's "Six Days of War" to understand Israel's precarious position before June 1967, when Israel suprised the World.

The Roman historian Cassius Dio describes a desolate Judea after a half-million Jewish soldiers were killed in the fiercest revolt faced by the Roman Empire. Roman losses were so heavy that Emporer Hadrian found it necessary to omit from his report to the Senate the customary introductory statement "I and my army are well". Just as the name of the Jewish nation of Israel was replaced with Palestine, so the city of Shechem was renamed "Neopolis" (new city). After Palestine was conquered by invading Arabs in the 7th century, the city became known as "Nablus" due to the lack of the letter "P" in Arabic. Palestine was not the only country overrun by expansionist Islam. It took the Spaniards eight centuries to complete the reconquest of Spain, yet no one denies the legitimacy of Spain or its right to exist in the community of nations. Neopolis or Nablus, like Hebron is stolen Jewish property.

No settlements then ,then probably about necessity of Israel to dissolve . He just continues .

The new reality is that we are living on borrowed time as well as borrowed (to put it politely) land. Even if we are willing to swim against the tide of logic forever, friendly countries will not be and one day the nuisances of our emotional deficiencies will outweigh their advantages. If, as you claim, our policemen and soldiers are not willing to carry out the instructions their government imposes on them, you are issuing an open invitation for outside forces to do so in the interests of world order and telling us we do not have a reliable military and police force. Israel was a viable state between 1948 and 1967. It was no more dangerous then than it is now. Many would argue it was also a more humane place to live in. Certainly the level of paranoia was lower. If we can no longer see straight, or are so deep in denial that we refuse to, someone is going to have to sober us up. It's Mr Obama's turn to try. He had better keep his eye on the ball. Two states for two peoples.

"According to Miller, none of the American officials who were involved in the negotiations was prepared, or able, to present an Arab point of view, not to mention fight for one. Miller admitted that empathy toward Israel prevented him and his colleagues from exhibiting firmness on the issue of the settlements " How about Robert Malley? As for firmness on the settlements, the Oslo Accords did NOT mandate a halt to construction. Israelshould have demanded that the Pals adhere to the actual terms of the treaty instead of trying to appease Arafat.

"No Israeli government has the capablity of removing 500,000 Jewish citizens from their homes ... " (Steve) You may be just right. No Israeli government may ever be capable of removing 500,000 Israeli settlers from the midst of the foreign and stateless population we took control in June 1967. Israel may be now "a prisoner of its 41-year occupation and dominion over the Palestinian people." ((Yoel Marcus, Haretz oct 09, 2007) The settlers may have won: It may be too late for a Two State solution. But then, the state of Israel, as a Jewish and democratic country, has no future. "The foundations for everything that is happening in Israel today were laid back then, in 1967." Amos Elon, in "So misled by the leaders", Haaretz, 22/07/2005. www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=603316

Those Israelis who choose to remain in Palestine can always revoke their Israeli citizenship, swear allegiance to the Palestinianan government, and stay put. It is only Israeli claims upon Palestinian land and resources and the invasion of alien settlements that has to go. As for Israeli capability to remmove 500.000 illegal settlers, Israel has never yet been stopped because a project was impossible. Israeli genius has always found a way to do what they really want to do. So, too, with removing settlements.

do please call us : call us please a Palestinian compromise offer. Is there at least any Palestinian speech about the necessity to make "painful compromises"? So what? The compromise offers of the Israelis are insufficient, while the Palestinian compromise offers entirely lack - thus defy criticism. I never heard about one-sided peace arrangements in any historical context. Are we to suppose, Israel is creating a historical novum, making peace with a foe, not even approaching the same line? Surely it is possible to make something closely similar to that: this is however called capitulation, which is not to be confused with the purpose of the Oslo process.

"Now, when 'the new' Netanyahu agreed to talk about the borders of the West Bank, U.S. President Barack Obama gave him a pass on the issues of Jerusalem and the refugees." And Bibi can show us that free pass.... where, exactly? I know that various Israeli politicians and their tame reporters keep SAYING that Obama has given ground on those issue. Sure. They keep SAYING that, as if merely SAYING that enough times will make it come true. Wish-based diplomacy. Propaganda-powered politics. BUT WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE? You guys really have lost it, because you don't even realize that you - and you alone - are the only people who believe your propaganda nonsense.

Israel's Settlements Enterprise has created a vast and tangled web of figments on the ground, fignments of Israeli religious delirium. These are not facts, but artifacts of Israel'Alice in Wonderland relationship with the USA, which the USA is responsible to liquidate, lock, stock and barrel to the last settler. At best, the properties belong to the Palestinians as compensation in exchange for loss of the right to return of Palestinians. But that is for the Palestinians to decide. Israel had better learn to be nice to the Palestinians, the rightful owners of the land who occupied it long before the Israelis arrived in the 20th century.

Why does the elitist left in Israel have so much difficulty understanding a simple idea--that some problems can be managed but not solved? There are many problems like that in this world, and we must accept that we can't solve everything. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to foresee that the region's problems won't be solved if one day the Arabs wake up and find Israel at the 1949 borders. There will still be extremists and rejectionists and terrorists, and Israel will have to defend itself from a vastly inferior position. Mr Eldar, just grow up.

4 years . has no one told any of them a car without an engine wont run ? 90 years of failure following the same policies has no effect on the braindead !

I'm surprised Mr. Eldar forgot Mara Rudman's inclusion in the lineup of Obama's failed has-beens. Rudman does not understand the Arab-Israeli conflict, and since Clinton did not let her pay in this arena, she is now trying to involve herself with dangerous results. All she does is suck up to Israel's security establishment while holding out hope for the likes of Salam Fayyad. As if putting do-gooder peace now types in the State Department might work.

Even supposing that the Palestinians were capable of destroying the State of Israel by force,they would not have to. Bibi's government and the settler's will do it for them. When did Israelis forget the law of cause and effect? The paranoia and fanciful fears of the Israeli right-wing have convinced me that only a 3 state solution is viable. One State of Judea and Samaria for the mad men intent on committing suicide. One State of Palestine for the Palestinians for whom the events of the last few years make living with Israelis impossible. One State of Israel for Jews and others for whom ethics and morals are the touch stone of democracy.

No, it is not necessary for the IDF, or any Israeli, to force the Settlers from their forts on Palestinian land. All that is needed is for Israel to inform them that they will not have IDF support, and that if they choose to stay in those forts, they will become Palestinian citizens, answerable to Palestinian laws, Palestinian courts, and that it will be Palestinian police who will be doing investigations into any killings. The first time a Settler is arrested for beating a Palestinian child, the first time a property dispute is heard by a judge who accepts that a property deed going back to the 19th century is more valid than a freshly printed one, all that will be left is the die-hards with their stockpiles of guns, and the first time those find that they truly are alone, most of them will scurry for the border as fast as they can.

You have no policy to present to the Americans as long as you are not one with Hamas and Hamas doesn't recognise Israel and Gilad Shalit remains a prisioner.Palestinians also have to stop settlement building before talks can begin. As long as you claim settlements stall peace talks, a stalemate takes place.

It is meaningless to talk to Israeli government about stopping settlers - akin to asking Fatah to act against Hamas, or Saniora to act against Hizbullah. State-within-state syndrome. US will now have to just leave Israel to its own devices.

Those who slaughtered jews for 2000 years, those who turned away jewish children from their shores and sent them back to gas chambers and those who ran the jews out of their countries have no right to mediate or judge Israel. It is time to fully right the wrong: the arabs are in various lands, including israel, as a result of conquest. They should be returned to their land of arabia or given the homes of jews forced from muslim lands. Israel will be condemned for anything it does therefore it should fully take what belongs to her. Seizing the saudi oilfields would solve many problems..

The leftist and Arab desire to put all the pressure on Israel and give Palestinians a free ride will not work. There will be little Jewish interest in the process unless Jews hear that their country will be accepted by the Palestinians and Arabs.The idea that "maybe" "perhaps" at the end of the day there will be acceptance of Israel if it offers more and more concessions first is a dead duck.

They have attacked Israel over and over. Just how close does anyone propose settling the Palistinians next to the people of Israel? 10 feet away? Beings the Palistinians have fired missiles at Israel a few hundred times, it should be proposed that the Palistinian people should not be allowed any closer than the range of their rockets, INCLUDING their longest range rockets. The Palistinians done this to themselves, they acted like dangerous criminals being VERY aggressive, because of their determination to kill, there should be a SAFE ZONE kept between the Palistinians and Israel.

Partners usually talk to each other, try to understand and collaborate on solutions to problems. That is a sign of respect. The USA, GB, Germany, France and Italy have viewed Israel as a partner and assumed reason would prevail. Unfortunately when religious zealots influence the leadership of a nation, reason does not prevail. In fact those religious zealots are prepared to push their nation further towards exploitation of the Palestinian peoples human and economic rights. It is time for the developed nations of the world to adopt a policy of economic sanctions against Israel. Without such harsh action, the leadership of Israel will not waiver in its pandering to religious zealots.

not surprised as to the Israeli official interpretation, and that is why the Arabs are looking at the Obama administration differently and hoping to make better progress in negotiations, but for Israel, security remains the key. RE: Shas threatening to leave coalition if Jerusalem discussed in negotiations this reminds me when I was a co-chair of a UJA division in 1998 (mainly Sephardis) where we held various functions within the community, and at one organizational meeting I suggested why we don't invite a Palestinian to speak and as soon as I said this, a member of the committee (who happened to be the type who would vote for Shas or Likud) threatens emotionally " If you invite a Palestinian, I am walking out of this committee and my father fought in the 1948 war..." Well, did I say let's invite a terrorist? Once a particular viewpoint is set, it's very difficult to persuade a different understanding or empathy with another's situation.

No Israeli government has the capablity of removing 500,000 Jewish citizens from their homes in built up neighborhoods of East Jerusalem and the large settlement blocs of Maale Adumim, Ariel and Gush Etzion. Even if by some freak election, a govenment coalition of irresponsible misfits was formed and had the will to return to the old armistice lines of 1949, who would enforce it? Is it conceivable that IDF soldiers living in Judea or Samaria would evict their parents or Israeli policeman from East Jerusalem neighborhoods would evict their friends, neighbors and relatives?

The Palestinians don't yet get it, but their struggle for nationhood has been defeated. What is left is a struggle for equal political rights within the bi-national state comprised of 50% Jews and 50% Palestinians. Unless they were built on land that was clearly stolen (and many of them were), the settlements are irrelevant. And to the extent they are robbers, the solution is just compensation, not expulsion.