Toward the next 60 years

As an Iranian-American, I found this article very heartwarming. Hopefully, one day, Israelis will feel secure enough in their land to be able to implement Amos Schocken's suggestions.

You are so absolutly correct....so please explain to the dumb Canadian why the hell some one would live in their asshole neibours house instead of their own!!!!!!! Unless you have a victim mentality, get therapy, and go home.

I am a third gen zionist and can not make it through Hatikvah with out balling my eyes out....however, I agree the it may be time to change the wish for hope to the bringers of peace. Peace after all is the goal we all want.

Canada's anthem says "Car ton bras sait porter l'?p?e, Il sait porter la CROIX!" ("Just as your arm knows how to wield the sword, It knows how to bear the CROSS!")

"Chapeau"-shocking Schocken!In the best "Brith Shalom", "Shalom Achshav", etc. tradition, you do all you can to raise Arab/Islamic expectations,while lowering Jewish morale and self confidence in a state of armed confrontation between the two camps. There is a name for it. Peace, dear Schocken, Is either a result of harmonious relations (US-Canada), or deterrence (US-USSR). Look at Arab demonisation of Israel/Jewry and use your sense to decide whether an "Instant Harmony" can emerge in the circumstances. If not, hold your horses until harmony is achieved. By acting the way you do, you only delay the achievement of peace. (See the Arab "constitution draft" for Israel).

Am I impressed by your accurate info on Finland! I could add one more point to highlight your wonder about the "special" treatment of the Swedish-speakers in this country: they have free access to their university, while Finns have entry-exams to all Finnish universities, for the most talented ones to be selected out. The "Swedish" are known to have a net-system to help each other out in every social field; call it "nepotism". AS for Russia/n: the border control is pretty severe, since they enter the EU, but not enough, since serious crimes happen. Finns have NEVER liked to learn Russian which is more of a sentimental issue than a language one; so it is not a school-subject. BUT everybody knows what "ruki veer" means! (hands up). English is the first foreign language in schools; has been since the end of the IIWW, as it replaced German. Fnland became "international" as she joined the EU in-95, so maybe the street signs will be in English in 10 years from now, if the EU is still there.

He has a point. The words can only be sung by a Jew.

I think you should start a campaign immediately to replace the swedish with proper English (absolutely not Russian) - check my earlier post to your buddy absolute swedish re the disturbing consequences of the current state of signage. Your description of the history of those so-called Swedes was great. Explains a lot (did not hear that before). How about telling people also about that little class system where the more Swedish ancestry, the easier the climb up the social/business ladder. Of course, this all pales by comparison with the present danger - the Russians are coming back - bit by bit. Me thinks you should consider sealing that long border or something...

"What about the Swedish, who live in Finland"? Yes, what about them? They do NOT originate from Sweden, but are the offsprings of the Finnish peasant servants to their Swedish masters, who resided in Finland during those centuries Finland was a part of the Swedish kingdom. They learned the language of their Swedish masters(many of them were lovers to their masters having their children too). After their masters left in 1808, they were in a very bad situation; with their masters gone, they lost higher living str.! They had doggy-loyalty left to their gone masters and felt "special", which came to mark their aloofness from other Finns. BUT they were and are Finnish alright with the their roots deep down in the Finnish peasantry.YOU would not even understand their Swedish today; a shock to the Royal Swedish Academy!

Your post 216 came up late (as did my 214 - check it out for pure kicks, no more). Glad you took it upon yourself to express that which many must feel (whether they say it or not). I did get caught in between a couple of times - my own fault for interjecting where I did not belong. Perhaps we should form a separate little group of etiquette consultants or have a rotating position of Talkback Mediator. But will require very very thick skin (know anyone?). That's because in this neighbourhood, someone will tear into you if you as much as hint that certain ME inhabitants could use a few sessions in anger management (akin to spinach for the soul?). On #222 - thanks. Stay tuned for my next piece (not a ballet this time. Maybe ice skating?). Re Finland - did spend a lot of tme there until end of last year. Tried my absolute best to rile up the Finns against them left-over Swedish colonizers (once I found out about that bit of history). No da. Bunch of live & let live types that they are...

oHHHHHHH, Donnna, oooooooooo Dana... oooooo, I had a girllllll, and Dana...was her name...oo oo oo oooooo.. etc. Hey darling it was a slow news day, no Qassams, no war with Lebanon, no kidnappings, no intra-Clan battles over donkeys in Beit Hanoun, just a crazed foreign student murdering 32 students and becoming a art-house film star. I can imagine a few minor cults growing up around the country. The devil always finds followers. As for the numbers business with Leon, I suppose that many folks may want to keep their actual faces hidden. As for Tosefta, I do not know the guy. I find him horribly confused, a convert of sorts to secular thinking. He still has an angry foot in his past, attempting to be "progressive". As for my attempts of totemic angst and Freudian spew, I can only be certain that he is a liar when he posts his writings from Tiveria. He does not live in Israel. Since this gentleman has no face nor a personality worth the paint, I abstain.

If Schocken is so keen on reconciliation and making the Arab minority truly feel part of the state, then he should have the decency to refer to that community by the term it uses for itself - Palestinian citizens of Israel. Most would never dream of using the term "Israeli Arabs", and most consider it abhorrent, just another attempt to expunge any and all references to Palestine. That Schocken will not even make this simple gesture shows the deep in-built hypocrisy of those who feign concern for the indigenous minority in their midst.

But Amos surely writes to "set in motion a process of returning property to Arab citizens of Israel whenever possible, or of compensating the owners of such property, when returning it is not possible. ", Amos add " that advances the steps described here would be making a significant contribution to this. " , "To This" , If Amos has no ROR in mind then what is it, a new anthem , yeah right , As expression of strengthening the solidarity between Jews and Arabs in Israel , Amos say to fit , to convert national anthem , rather than the contrary for arabs to sing it loud and clear Israel caliphated leftists are really frivolous and dangerous to Zion and its jewish national character , Now that his army is engulfed in the Egyptian Sea of Reeds , Israel caliphated leftists souls are yearnin' for a return to Egypt/Pharaoh , They think that slavery will be sweetened , yeah right , go tell that to Pharaoh after his lost his armies because of jews ,

bit by bit Israel caliphated leftists are consumin' Israel from within , while their reputation is caliphated , they say they have a reputation to protect , they shout Israel's negative influence on the world, while Israel's economy is insignificant in the world stock market ,

If we Jews demand accomodations in the lands we live in in the Diaspora, Israel ought to do the same for non-Jews in Israel. The anthem change idea is a good one. A small alteration in it is all that's necessary. Diaspora Jews and Israelis have good reason to be ashamed that we who have suffered so greatly from discrimination in Christian and Muslim lands are prepared to allow Israeli Arabs to be seated indefinitely in the nation's back seats.

Yes, israel is a jewish country. Also a declared democratic country. You conveniently forget the second sentence. In France many french dislike the national anthem because it speaks about the impure blood of enemies. Nobody has the hysterical reaction of asking them to go and live somewhere else. Sometimes democracy and the jewish caracter of the state are in contradiction. To speak about it is a legitimate right.

Jihad schools of thought have poisoned Israelis caliphated Leftists minds , minds of slavery , despair , blood of bitterness runs in thier veins , they are dictators disguised as liberal democrats, these unrealistics utopists speed up apocalypse,

So are its Jewish national symbols , Not everythin' is democratic in a democracy , not everythin' is acceptable , not everythin' is permissible , some things are unacceptable , are not permissible , Human rights are fine but only in the framework of the best you can do , to remind you that sovereignty for jewish democracy and its jewish symbols and its jewish self determination are not negotiable , sovereignty for Jewish rule , sovereignty for , jewish stamp , sovereignty for the Jewish state , Wak'up , sing the Zionist character of Hatikva anthem , Israel's national symbols , in this case Hatikva ,a Zionist anthem of the Zionist movement take it or leave it , the world is big enough , but in Rome as in Rome , and in this case as a poison to drink , a drug to inject , as a heaviness , a burdensome on the minds and shoulders of Israelis caliphated Leftists , as a bone in their throat ,

before the Turks ?! Get your money back from your Talmudic school,they did a poor job on you.

while i commend you on your post, your last sentence did conflict with what you started, which kinda is hypocritical, wouldn't you say ? anyway, there won't be another 60 yrs, not many can see it, actually, very few of us can, and this is due to the zionist plan, the only way there could be, to make peace with the arabs, no foot dragging, give back the land to pre 67 borders, simple, but so hard for alot.

Amos Schocken "If there is one minister in the government of Israel who does not sing the national anthem, then perhaps the national anthem should be re-examined." Totaly wrong. If there is one minister in the goverment of Israel who does not sing the national anthem, they must be examined responsible for bringing him there. The minister and who brings him to this position must be fired imideatly. You are showing and exposing also your democratic understanding which is totaly absurd. National anthem can not be changed. It is a symbol of Israel. If we are going to change it especially when every minority group requries to change it hen you must accept to change everything in Israel. Are you ready for it. It seems it doesn't bother to you to change your way of life to be a muslim one, but I don't want to be a muslim. If there is a democracy in this state then why should I forgive my rights for a minority? Aby

Were is democracy for Jewish people in Arab stats?

Israel is known to us as a Jewish State. That is why the name "Israel". Israel should have National Anthem that reflects the National life. I think the national life of Israel still is "HOPE" in the appearance of the promised King, the stone of Israel that crushes the rocks of the gentiles and establishes itself a rock of ages on the earth. Even in absense of the complete description of the hope, the faint "HOPE" still conveys the life of the state and the people. From the time of Abraham the Father of the Hebrews this hope has continued ... I would gladly sing of the hope if I were an Israeli irrespective of my ethnicity. I would count the privilege of being an Israeli more than my ethnicity expressing enmity to the State of God's mind. Shalom.

about 30 years ago, to include lines about accepting people of all races and religions from all over the world (those are not the exact words, of course). I still cannot make myself sing it. It is not the anthem I learned as a child. It is not the anthem with which this Country grew up. It negates the white Anglo culture that I loved. But I know that the change was for the best. I was brought up racist - almost everyone in a one-race or one-religion state is necessarily racist - but I am smart enough to recognize that fact and although I cannot eliminate racism from my heart, I have tried to eliminate it from my brain and from my behavior. There are many racist states, Saudi Arabia and the Vatican City come to mind at once. If you want to be racist, a racist anthem is acceptable. The choice is yours.

"If there is one minister in the government of Israel who does not sing the national anthem, then perhaps the national anthem should be re-examined"- Perhaps the Song should remain, but the MK's who are not Loyal to our JEWISH state should be changed (or charged) !!!

If anyone has a problem with singing the national anthem, then pack it up & go somewhere else. You won't be missed.

No one questions whether Iran, Jordan, or Morrocco are Muslim entities. Israel is a Jewish country, and its national anthem reflects that fact. The presence of minorities in all walks of life reflect the democratic nature of Israel. The Hatikva speaks to Israel's spiritual foundations as a Jewish state. As a Jewish soldier in the US I often joined in Christian songs because of the Christian foundations of US society. I didn't become a Chrisian because I showed respect for my comrades faith, nor did they become Jewish when they sang Hava Nagilah. Nobody can be forced to sing anything that's anathema to their beliefs. If an Israeli Arab in the government is uncomfortable with singing the Hatikva - that's his choice. But he is, after all, serving in a government of the Jewish state...

Israel is, afterall, a Jewish state. It would be like asking us here in the United States to sing an anthem for the Mexicans, the Japanese, the Koreans, the Chinese, and other groups. We live in a melting pot here. Nevertheless, the United States is drawn together by the fact that this is America, and we sing a song to acknowledge that fact. Israel deserves the same recognition as a Jewish State. This conclusion should unite rather than divide, since Israelis are citizens of Israel, the Jewish State.

Israel is not America or France or Russia or China, it's the JEWISH STATE! If you want to live in an Arab consumed democracy without a future by Islamic take over, you can head over to Europe.

Because the palestinians and arabs from other countries refuse to leave Israel and the Jews alone our national anthemn must remain HaTikvah. We must never loose hope that we will remain a Jewish country free from the hatred and open vileness coming from the islamo/fascists. If Amos Schocken does not like singing HaTikvah then he can keep his mouth shut...Israel will change the anthemn when the arabs behave like normal people and not animals and when Saudi Arabia allows Jews to enter their racist country. This I am afraid will not occur in our lifetime...so HaTikvah remains our anthemn and the Saudi's can have their pig pen for themselves. Where is it written that the Jews have to make all of the concessions while the palestinians/arabs sit back and take and take and inbetween wage wars and create homicide bombers?If one fifth of the population does not like the anthem then don't sing it. Do you think the arabs would change anything for a Jew? The Left will be the death of all of us.

Mr.Schocken, IfYou Love the Arabs so much You can go and live with them. How long will they live in Peace with You?, when You go to Nablus, or Jenin and tell them that You want to be their next door neighbor.In the meantime Israel needs more Zionism not less, Let Hatikvah be heard around the world forever as the anthem of the Jewish People. Let's get a new Nationalist, Love of Israel Government in Israel to replace the three stooges running Israel now.Israel has a great purpose,but must go back to the Zionist priciples of its forefathers.Chag Yom Haatzmanut Samaiach.Let Us hope by the 60th Anniversary Likud will come back into power., and Hatikvah will be played at least 10 times as much.

Only if you don't consider the Arab citizens of Israel as Israeli citizens. Do you mean it unites most of Israel?

Ordinarily, I would agree with Schocken, However Israels sole reason for existence is to give the JEWISH people a homeland. It is the only country that was created for that purpose. Israel was never meant to be all things to all people. It is the one and only Jewish state. Let it have a Jewish anthem.

What a stupid suggestion to change an anthem that unites Israel. I am a non-Jew yet have felt free to join in singing the anthem because it talks of freedom and hope. I stand with Israel and support the Jewish right to have a land of their own where they are safe. Not only that but am proud that they also protect the rights of non-Jews within Israel. The only objection they have like anywhere on this planet is that those who dont allow this freedom are not welcome. Sounds fair enough to me!!!

Shocken's flawed assumption is that israel and the jewish people has moved beyond hoping to be a free people in its land. false....all of yehuda and shomron must be liberated...in hebron (the jewish people's 2nd holiest city after jerusalem) jews are not allowed to even try to buy peacefully houses...the muslims threaten to nuke it...to attack it...and terrorize... shocken's other fundamentally flawed assumption is that jews and muslims want a state that does not identify itself w/o a more specific mission than being a generic democracy...jews want a refuge and the law of return...muslims simply don't want to be a minority...their religion finds it intolerable to be in a minority in a land they once ruled...it does not matter how you define the country..they want to rule and not be ruled...and jews like schocken will leave by the 100s of 1000s the moment the anthem is changed...espcially ones like schocken who want to live in europe (not eurabia although this is the best they willget

If you serve in the IDF you will receive all of the benefits a Jew receives. For most of them of course, service is mandatory. Is this equal, no. But then will you complain that you enjoy a degree of freedom they do not? Of course, many Jews will still hold Islamic Beliefs against you. For example, I find that whole smite me above the neck bit offensive.

Frankly, I don't think Hatikva should be changed. However, if it should be changed then the only possible change should be to Adon Olam. It can be sung in both Hebrew and Arabic. It is perfectly acceptable to all Jews and is sung in all synagogues. Maybe not among the Samaritans or the Karaites, but even they would be fully in agreement with the sentiments it expresses. Not only that, even the Muslims would find it fully acceptable to their theology. Problems solved.

Should the IRA sing God Save the Queen? How about; Lord, grant that Marshal Wade, May by thy mighty aid, Victory bring. May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, God save the King.

Palestinians will never live in a Jewish Country any more than Jews will live in any of the dozens of Islamic Countries. Even Non-Palestinian Israeli Arabs, which is who we are talking about here, will never live peacefully in a Jewish Country. They ultimately desire to bring an Islamic State to Israel, making it just like all of the other Islamic States, most of which explicitly refer to Arabism or the Koran in their Anthems. Ironic that they complain today as most of them used to have large Jewish Populations.

This is what you've been empowering for quite a while now, America. Israeli and American fundie religious fanatics against the world, but in firm alliance with their Arab fellow warmongers.

UAE~ Live my country, the unity of our Emirates lives You have lived for a nation whose religion is Islam and guide is the Qur'an. I made you stronger in God's name oh homeland. My country, My country, My country, My country. God has protected you from the evils of the time. We have sworn to build and work. Work sincerely, work sincerely. As long as we live, we'll be sincere sincere. The safety has lasted and the flag has lived oh our Emirates. The symbol of Arabism. We all sacrifice for you, we supply you with our blood. We sacrifice for you with our souls oh homeland. Saudi Arabia~ Hasten to glory and supremacy! Glorify the Creator of the heavens and raise the green, fluttering flag, carrying the emblem of Light! Repeat - God is greatest! O my country, my country, may you always live, the glory of all Muslims! Long live the King, for the flag and the country! Syria~ Defenders of our home, peace be upon you; our proud spirits shall never be subdued. The abode of Arabism, ETC ETC...

...its called HATIKVAH - the anthem of the JEWISH STATE - something we need not feel obligated to apologize for... Shhhhhhh! Do not let such simple thoughts of yours to contradict such deeply ventured, highly & morally charged, complicated thoughts & analysis of Arab appologists on somehting so undeniable & such simply `edged in stone` understanding.

And here come some suicidal masochists ready to cater to their childish whining. They can sing the song, or not, but they can't get what they want and for this, they will never be happy, or loyal, or trustworthy or anything less than our enemies.

Especially in this case, when Hatikvah specifically talks about "Jewish soul". It's a lovely anthem, but without a worthy alternative that Arab and other non-Jewish citizens can use, it's a guaranteed source of division and alienation. Which is exactly what the Israeli rightwing wants. Treat the Arabs of Israel and Palestine so badly they'll leave. Not the slightest sign it will work though, Jews aren't the only ones who love their homeland in Palestine-Israel.

What a STUPID article, and "argument". Isreal is the JEWISH state.Others can and DO live in Isreal, just as all kinds of people live in the U.S. . NOT just the Euros who founded the U.S. . MANY Isrealis died to protect Isrealis' RIGHT to sing the anthem, It won't be changed , as the U.S. anthem will never be changed. STUPID to think otherwise. Does ANYONE REALLY believe Isrealis would vote to change the anthem? OF COURSE NOT. STUPID to entertain the subject.

Hatikva, however stirring and emotional, embodies the apartheid nature of Israel. If modern Zionism is dependent on a song, then there is truly something rotten in Denmark.

its called HATIKVAH - the anthem of the JEWISH STATE - something we need not feel obligated to apologize for.

The dutch anthem states that we are from German blood, rooted in Nassau {France} and loyal to the king of Spain.........

Hello Dana, - refreshing to read something funny. Part of what makes it worthwhile to stay put in this jungle (talkback). I doubt the Finns would tolerate any Swedish version of an anthem, though. You sound like you know something about Scandinavia. I lived up there (mostly in Norway) for almost thirty years & I didn't know the bit about the Swedish colonizers! I used to think the Swedish taught in schools etc was a practical measure, one enabling the Finns to be intelligible to other Scandinavians & also to seek work in Sweden. Anyway, I doubt any rest of a Swedish colony still wields any real influence in that country. As for today's topic, the author didn't mention the flag, not even once. Regards, -

If you want to bring a counter-example, the Talmud might say: 1. First show that the national flag does not fit the minority you discuss (for example, they are not Christians and are opposed to the Cross). 2. Show that the minority are "natives", being there before or with the majority, and are not immigrants who accepted the local flag. 3. Show that the minority number is not so small that it will be indistinguishable. You have not reported any of these. Just do a better job.

Don't we Jews have a will to live? We are frightened of having normal,selF-respecting ways. To change a great national anthem hoping it will placate enemies is just more of the same frightened Jewish behavior. THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO STOP WITH THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

I'm a Jew, a Belgian citizen and I like to sing many songs. Including at least one anthem: "Le Chant du Départ", the song that lost it to "The Marseillaise" as the french anthem. Some like it better than "La Brabançonne" the Belgian anthem, which is far more conservative. I don't expect our Belgian anthem to change, despite the fact that Flemish and Waloon make an odd couple, that few know the lyrics or the music, and that those who like to sing anthem often sing something else. Also, as a Jew, note that I have no problem singing about a foreign revolution or calling for the unity of a catholic monarchy I have little faith or history to bind with (that's the essence of "La Brabançonne"): it is Belgium that I celebrate. Israel is a secular jewish state and the hope of a persecuted nation, why can't the lyrics of its anthem say it? Certainly not because people can't reconcile themselves with those facts. Many of them Jews as we saw here ...

Hope you saw my response to you a few days ago. Not everybody is an Irving Berlin. Songwriting isn't easy. As some have pointed out here, the curent anthem was set to already existing music over a century ago. Likewise, the US anthem was originally a poem set to existing music (Anacreon in Heaven). It didn't become 'official' for over 100 years (1931). Maybe Haaretz could sponsor a lyrics contest and then a separate music contest for the top three winners for Lyrics. The result could be something uniquely Israeli, and maybe even unifying. Getting the people and country to accept it might be problematic, but this current editorial approach seems just designed to stir up passions. Until an actual alternative is proposed, its all idle arguement.

Dear Cousin we charedi Jews are also called parsites by secular isrealis.. When u our cousins will treat us with mutual respect as to our religion and we can get the same respect from the left jew bashers , Israel will have no need but to be a country for both children of abraham.

To all you combattants w/big mouths: There's a lot of crap, name-calling, under-the-belt punches & hostile language on this talkback. When it comes from some odd characters whose level can't reach above it, I guess there isn't much one can do about that. The sad thing is when you have to hear it from thoughtful, serious people who actually have something to say here. I don't like these camps forming to the extent they do & I don't want to have to swear allegiance to any of them, be caught betw. them nor hesitate when crossing the lines separating them. Nor does anyone here, I believe, need to be informed about somebody else's personal problems, disabilities /handicaps, as to the discredit of what they write here. Maybe some of you know each other from before somehow & have some real personal grievances, but this can't be the forum for those. I think the bitter conflict we're mainly discussing here is more than sufficient a burden. This is not meant unfriendly towards any of you.

stop fighting over the words b/c first we need to agree on a new tune. that will be hard enough. my preference is a march-like tune, and perhaps take a march from the King of Marches John Philip Sousa - whose melodies are allegro, optimistic, and can certainly contain visionary words about a homeland for both Jews and Arabs So I'm conducting a survey: do you prefer a fast-rhythm tune (which i consider optimistic) or a slow-rhythm tune? write me your answer + a suggestion if you have one

"Don`t worry, the foreigners don`t know the language and Tosefta is probably incapable of human contact." Are you jesting, perchance? I'd guess that a majority of posters here know some or a lot of hebrew. What if some despised leftist were to call? who'd pay for the bill to clean up the feathers? Hey FOX, you even inviterd me once for a chit chat and a visit. Looks like a party now. Beware - I like parties.... As for Tosefta - I have a feeling that - human contact or otherwise - he is a bit past the age of shaving. Just a hunch. Also for all we know he may have ten kids already (vs your two) which would also explain perhaps some testiness now and then (you are welcome to use your own imagination. Title this painting "The Scholar and his Brood". Don't make it too abstract, OK?). Then there is danite, who we all agree should chill out.

Even the ARab Mk is now accused of being a spy. Read what the new Koran teaches about what to do to infidels and check how many Isareli Arabs agree. Avraham Aveinu "the father of hachnosas Orchim sent out Ismael to the desert with Bread and Water. WHY? beacause he understood he was enemy of Issac & israel. Enemies get bread and water as prisoners of war. Enemies dont get national anthem. Period!! Bread &water until they become citizens. am yisroel chai.

Israels new anthem begins with these words. Love it or leave it

In the early days of the Zionist movement Bialik offered Tekhezakhna, and it was used by some people. Insread Hatikva was chosen by the WZO mostly because the New Yishuv liked it. The melody according to my sources is a drunken Rumanian wagoner's dance tune. Then too, if you are looking for comparisons, the tune of Star Spangled Banner was taken from "A Hymn to Anachreon", something that people sang in the pubs at the turn of the 18th century, so . . .

Excuse me, you guys are overreacting. I don't know anything about Shocken, but nowhere is he even mentioning the flag, he's not advocating to change the Jewish character of Israel, not questioning Jewish history & not denigrating Zionism in any way. Let go, it may be a non-issue to try to change the anthem (I don't see a huge problem w/that, though). What's really interesting in his piece are these smaller signs of acknowledgement towards the Arabs, like place names & property issues, as well as the larger equality issue. You have a problem w/that? These are not non-issues. We're dealing w/a young state here, & the Arabs didn't immigrate into it, as if one could say "ok, you can stay & live w/us here". Sure they may have reasons to feel excluded. To rectify that doesn't have to change the jewishness of Israel a bit. Actually it will confirm it & earn Israel more respect. (the Is. Arabs could have a smaller addit. anthem. Both would be sung & you could choose if you would sing both)

which shows a nationality and not a religion.

How about a Solomonic compromise? Keep the Hatikvah as the national anthem but add stanzas affirming that the land of Israel has a special meaning for the Palestinians too. In fact, I see that Israel's future depends on the two peoples developing empathy for each other and that Israel and Palestine will be the spiritual home of two peoples. I suggest a contest to see who can develop the best verses that will be added to the Hatikvah some of which can be a blend of Hebrew and Arabic.

""Land of thye Finns",what about the Swedes living there?" The Swedes were the first colonizers of Finland and have succeded in getting the street signs and other public signs to read in TWO obscure languages instead of one. The Finns are too passive and good natured to make a big deal out of it since it only aggrevates hapless tourists, but keeps those few ultra-nationalist Swede descendents more or less content along the western shores of the country. Now, maybe it's a lesson for israel or maybe not. After all, I know for a fact that the skeletons of many a hapless tourist, are strung all around Helsinki's environs, lost forever where they dropped dead from thirst and hunger having been lost on ring roads leading nowhere for the past 10 years, and with no signs in any comrehensible language to guide them anywhere. It is my firm belief that we will find many who disappeared without a trace throughout the world encased in the ice along the shores of Finland's lovely lakes.

Just to comprehend the delusions of Schocken/Haas/Levy/Tosefta circle as correction officers of `Israel the infringer & tormentor of the natives`, think about if US had to accommodate the Americans of any descent who do not like the sound of `Star Spangled Banner`. The US far left liberals are something else, but even they do not go to such extremes as the Israeli Arab apologists do. Like they say, only in Israel. Of course over sixty years parts of the generations of Israeli Arabs born in Israel had not their brains corrupted & brainwashed by `pride & honor of Naqba`, or while growing up were simply able to separate the reality from the Arab conning themselves, & set their descendents on the true Israeli Arab partnership. But was Mr. Schocken on vacation every time the fifth column in Israel is at work? More delusions for you: the Pals should erect the plaque in Hebron in honor of the 1929 Jewish massacres. Yes, they certainly will. I rest my case.

in the reference to proofs of the two Delta theory for the origin of the Star of David. There is no incontrovertible proof of this from archeology and literature. Nevertheless, the theory of the symbol representing Dalet vav Dalet or "Dalet and Dalet" would appear to be more supported by serious scholars than other current theories.

I refuse even to answer the question which I take it as insult. I am a semite myself, how can I be anti-Seite, then? Moreover, How can I be anti-Jewish? It is nonsense. as civil equality, it should be the universal way.

No body is suggesting that Arabs be allowed to be chief rabbis in Israel. However, in a democracy, citizens are equal before the law regardless of religion and race and sex. Israel claims to be a western state, but no other state in the West systematically discriminates against a segment of its citizens as Israel does. This is anti-democratic, anti-civic, and actually racist.

I think many of you are forgetting that Israel was and is THE ONE JEWISH STATE. Why should Israel accomidate itself to the Muslims. Let them go live in a Muslim state, there are enough of them. And still they want more. Do not cdelude yourselves into thinking they will love you more if you change your anthem to I love Allah. TThey want you dead and nothing less.

At some point it may be important to consider the anthem and other similar issues but is it a priority right now? While the Palestinians hold hostages, continue attack attempts, and otherwise misbehave we have much bigger fish to fry. Perhaps the author should get his priorities in order.

it is high time for israel to redress the issue of the internal palestinian refugees, those who stayed in israel but had their land grabbed by an over zealous state with justifacation under the circumstances.many of these absentees live within sight of their formers lands and villages.Where possible israel should allow them back if not, let israel show statesmanship and honour and compensate them now.Not only will this be just but it will bring honour to the name of israel and hit the binational freaks were they sit.Israel needs to clean up alot of unfinished buisness with the israel arabs who do have some just claims.

It's so hard trying to keep up with your various masks. Nazi's, terrorists, theives, liars, not to mention your long-standing favorites, rapists. Of course, that's when you're not calling us 'fake Jews', with a falsified history (whoops, sorry, not sure if that fits into your liars category or just your general hate-mongering). Obviously given your total lack of honor, you have no problems looking into any mirror, even as you place HAMAS' suicide bombers at your place of honor...all in the name of the Palestinian national aspriation. And hey, given your home in Hebron, who's to say that it wasn't stolen from a Jewish family back in 1929. If I were you though, I wouldn't hope for the day that Jews decide to actually act like their next door neighbors do. Because on that day, all those slurs you like to toss about so freely will come to life.

Khalid, Just the fact that you defend him is a very bad sign. I am surprised that you would become engaged in this debate, since it in no way concerns you. On the other hand, it is quite obvious that Arabs and the far left and the far right have formed an unholy alliance in their effort to delegitimise and deconstruct the Jewish state. If your Arab brothers do not want to sing the Hatikva because it contains the word "Jew," then that is their probelm. The state was founded by Zionists, meaning by Jews, for Jews, and on the principles of Jewish self determination. The concerted effort to de-Judaify the state, to rob it of its very essence, will not succeed. The attempt to make "Jew" into a dirty word, within Israel, cannot and will not succeed. You can call Jews all the ugly names in the entire world, but within Israel, it will remain revered. The anthem and the flag represent an ancient pople, with an ancient history. This people, and this history will continue to live on forever.

OBVIOUSLY YOU KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT ITS 60 YEAR PROGRESS!!!

If you want to bring a counter-example, the Talmud might say: 1. First show that the national flag does not fit the minority you discuss (for example, they are not Christians and are opposed to the Cross). 2. Show that the minority are "natives", being there before or with the majority, and are not immigrants who accepted the local flag. 3. Show that the minority number is not so small that it will be indistinguishable. You have not reported any of these. Just do a better job.

Acceptable to all? That will never happen. Republicans in Northern Ireland and monarcy abolitionists across the UK will never be happy with idea of singing "God save the Queen". Robespierre himself tried to abolish Christianity in France and replace it with a nebulous "Cult of the Supreme Being". He also changed the calendar into a Revolutionary calendar. Is it any wonder that the same Napoleon who did away with Robespierre's Fascist cult and saved Christianity in France also liberated Jews across Europe? By the way, a book on the flag of Israel would make a good joke, but it would never make a symbol that Jews would accept or even understand. Why not put a big question mark?

The English version of OH Canada was written BECAUSE of the Catholic feel of the French version,either version discriminates against no christians women and immigrants as you claim hatikvah does to Arabs what are you talking about?? Just another blind and dishonest israel hater.Secondly my point about not arguing over history was to impede movement towards the full integration of israeli arabs.I offered a civic version of the anthem for those who want it so like in Canada english and french canadians can sing their own versions of it.As for israel being an immoral and ill advised creation well you are wrong on both counts.Jews have the same rights of national self determination as others, and it was a much needed development.You might like being of the supplicant caste(are you jewish) but the rest of us dont.

Khaled Amariyeh. He also call himself KA, "Christian", :American living here:. He can ve identified not only vy the content of his letters but by his stryle and by his vocabulary, i.e., "mendacious", "Talmudic", etc. My advice is, not to waste your time arguing with that...well, never mind.

I've seen many times the Swedish flag next to Swedish Churches abroad. It's only people like you tiptoeing around ,afraid displaying of the Israeli flag at synagoges would smack of a "double loyalty"

"Wonderful speculation about the two Deltas comprising the Star of David. "many scholars agree", but only in your dreams. No scholar would agree because it is just speculation, with no ancient written or archeological source to it whatsoever." - Jake "Tosefta, no archeological source for Magen David?" - Jake How about reading things slooooly and carefully before you rush to attack? Attackers should always be careful; after all, the attacked is liable to read carefully before he responds.. Now, if you read CAREFULLY my quote, you will see that it discusses the origin of the Magen David as stemming from two inverted Deltas. No scholar would agree, because this speculation has no source. Get it? I do hope you do now. P.S. What is the percentage of Jews in Turkey and Greece? I don't really want to know, just to get something thoughtful instead of wasting my time.

Perhaps Amos Schoken should ask the President of Iran Mr Ahmadinejad to drop the Iranian National Anthem and adopt the Hatikva instead. I am sure the Iranian President will be delighted so much so that he will bestow the order of merit on Amos Schoken to be shot at dawn by a firing squad. He deserves it and more , that silly old fool !

And who exactly did your convict ancestors get their independence from exactly? Did the aborigines agree for them to take their land? Unlike Jews who had been in Israel for CENTURIES, and wanted land only in parts where they were a majority, the white colonisers in Australia thought they'd help themselves. What's your excuse? 800,000? and what about roughly the same amount of dhimni jews kicked out of Arab states? Funny how you mention only one side of the story... I know it hurts you so much knowing that Israel is here to stay but you better get used to it. Israel doesn't have an expiry date.

Is your opinion that ALL nations should remove any ethno centric or religious symbols and words from their anthems and totems? or is it only israel? If it is ALL NATIONS including the Arabs and the palestinians then you are not an anti semite and I apologise right here and now.But if it is only the Jews that must erase themselves in the service of justice and civil rights then you are.Which is it then?? Thank you.

Whether you like it or not Amos Schoken. This is and has always been the Homeland of the Jewish people and the Hatikvah, our only Hope for the future of our children.So you know what to do if you do not agree : get out of here, now, old boy!

I think the Russians, and many other Europeans, thought of the German occupation with "hatred and deranged views." What do you mean by "no point in talking about history."? The Zionist version of history was the passion behind the illegal, immoral and ill advised foundation of a "Jewish" state. In Canada the words of our national anthem may be different in French and English, but both versions promote the idea of one nation and one nationality....even though it is not altogether true.

since holland has a huge muslim population perhaps they too should discard their national symbols so as to appease the muslims in the midst. Amos: nothing you do will make the arabs feel a part of the jewish state. theyll know its a phony bone thrown to them. they want it all. until then theyre just citizens in a country that is the state of the jews.

You tell me why should a Jew sing it?

Though Ha'aretz takes a left-wing editorial line, its readers are generally Israel's upper middle classes and not workers. This can be demonstrated by glancing at the advertisements in the Hebrew print edition: expensive cars, fancy jewelry and clothing. things that the average Israeli can't afford. What's more, the print edition costs about twice the cost of the other two major - and much more popular - dailies, Ma'ariv and Yedioth Aharanoth. At least I can afford to buy some of the items on sale in these newspapers. In other words, Ha'aretz is a newspaper for armchair liberals, in the true trdition of the European Jewish socialists of the late 18th-early 19th centuries, who lived in places like Odessa and wrote for their living.

"Land of thye Finns",what about the Swedes living there? And the flag of Turkey,with THE Muslim Halfmoon,what about Armenians and Greeks?! What does "Zealand" mean to Maori in the Land of The Long White Cloud?? Your sharp Talmudic mind Tosefta is onto something,go and sell your ideas to the World at large.

AK is one of the aliases of Khaled Amariyeh, along with KA, "Christian" and "American living here". He's very Talmudic, you know. to use one of his favorite words.

Should ALL national anthems be abolished because Jehovah's Witnesses oppose singing any anthem? Israel is a Jewish state. Iran is a Muslim state. They both have their minorities, who have to cope with the state's essence as its majority society has made it be.

has its origin in "Twinkle, twinkle, little star".

Thank you Lynn I am glad their are others who see right through him.Regards

What is your point please? Any thoughts on my comments re the way Toseftas abuses of your decency? Thanks, I really dont want to argue with you about it ODP, Tosefta is not worth it, I like your posts.He is not worth it.

Amos Schocken and those who agree with him about Hatikvah can't have it both ways. Either Israel exists as the national home of the Jewish people or it doesn't. If Israel's Arabs can't cope with Hatikvah or the Israeli flag, they should be free to relocate to Ramallah or whichever Arab country will have them. Those misguided Israelis who are ready to give up the symbols of a Jewish State dishonor the memory of those who fought and died for it.

The only person making a fool of himself today is you, who think we are fools.get it??

If you dont see the issues involved with demonising THE LEFT as saboteurs of Israel what can I say? Does that include the thousands of leftists who serve in the army, does that include Ayalon braverman Peretz Peres and hundreds of others who have dedicated their lives to israel?yes Fox it is demagogic and paranoid, the main problem facing israel is coming from the right.It has nothing to do with Kumbaya(when have you heard me sing Kumbaya??) and I am not lashing out in all directions today only at Tosefta who you agrees deserves it.Nor was I a leninist nor do I ahve to be to take offense at your demonisation of millions of patriotic israelis in the Zionist left who are trying to save Israel.Your attacks on them are on the level of the hysterical right.have a nice day.

If you dont see the issues involved with demonising THE LEFT as saboteurs of Israel what can I say? Does that include the thousands of leftists who serve in the army, does that include Ayalon braverman Peretz Peres and hundreds of others who have dedicated their lives to israel?yes Fox it is demagogic and paranoid, the main problem facing israel is coming from the right.It has nothing to do with Kumbaya(when have you heard me sing Kumbaya??) and I am not lashing out in all directions today only at Tosefta who you agrees deserves it.Nor was I a leninist nor do I ahve to be to take offense at your demonisation of millions of patriotic israelis in the Zionist left who are trying to save Israel.Your attacks on them are on the level of the hysterical right.have a nice day.

under the sun. You can't accuse others of terror when you yourselves embody terror in its ugliest forms. Besides being cardianl terrorists, you are also theives and liars. Thieves, because you stole the country from its native Palestinians whom you massacred and terrorized into fleeing to the four corners of the globe...and thieves because you concocted all kinds of myths and lies and propaganda to justify your grand theft. Honestly, If I were living in a stolen home like you, I wouldn't have the guts to look into the mirror. But you are a peopel without ethics, without morality without nothing. ANd you claim to be a light upon mankind, never the less.

That's where you are just plain *wrong*. The symbol is not mentioned in ancient rabbinic literature, but that does not mean it was not used in antiquity. First confirmed used Jewish use of the symbol was in a seal of Joshua ben Asayahu from 7th century B.C. Sidon. There are a number of seals, including Maccabean royal seals, displaying the hexagram from the Persian, Helenistic, and Hasmonean periods. A Jewish tombstone from 3rd century A.D. Taranto, Italy and some 3rd and 4th century Galilean synagogues display it too. All that aside, you are finding excuses to negate the Jewish character of Israel. Not only will this not fly with Israel's Jewish population, but it negates the entire principle of a 2-state solution, comprised of one Jewish and one Arab state. By the way, Jews have lived in Greece and coastal Turkey since Hellenistic times, before Christianity. Yet Jews in Greece and Turkey don't protest the religious symbols on those countrys' flags.

being motivated by anti-Semitism. This shows that you are using the mantra of anti-semitism to justify racism and bigotry. Indeed, if calling and insisting on civil equality in Israel and on having a state that would treat all its citizens equally, regardless of religion or race or sex, is anti-semtism, then Yes, anti-Semitism becomes a moral obligation upon all humans.

On the other hand, Israeli Arabs are Semites, so they might be a bit more related to the tribe of Judah than the Huns were to the Romans. It is interesting that, like the Romans, they too came to the tribal lands of Judah as conquerers, but unlike the Romans, they are still, unfortunately, hanging around. Unlike the Arabs that have immigrated to the UK, who can't wait to see Sharia govern the British Isles (and the rest of the EU) at least the Jews there don't want to replace the Magna Carta with the Talmud. You might be right about the Magen David being a bit dodgy as an emblem, however, since a menorah, such as seen on the Arch of Titus, is an historically more credentialed symbol of the tribe of Judah. If we want to include Arab contributions to the flag, perhaps a broken down wall might be put on. Nah, that's not a good idea - too much like the truth.

Hi FOX, lets try as you said, kidomet shel Tel Aviv, shesh arba efes hamesh ehad shesh arba (ze bamisrad).

Tasmanian Aboriginal Elder Michael Mansell says the current Australia Day celebrations should be scrapped and a new national day chosen...Mansell said Australia Day would forever remain a racist blot on Australia's political landscape as long as the event was held on the anniversary of the landing of the First Fleet. "There can never be reconciliation between whites and Aborigines so long as the anniversary of the coming of white people is the basis for celebrating Australia Day," he said. "A fair and just society cannot be built on celebrating gains by one race at the expense of another." Michael Mansell also said that the Australian national anthem is about the white people and immigrants and excludes Aborigines - the words "for we are young and free" were clear reference to the last 200 years of colonisation by Europeans and dismissed the ownership of the country by Aboriginal people. http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2006/01/104932.php

Well, maybe the Muslims will insist on a lot of changes around the world, for instance, they may want Sharia law for themselves in UK, France, Germany, Holland, Spain, you name it. Who in the heck are they anyway, no one else has any rights in Egypt, Iran, Syria, Tunisia, Morrocco, unless they are the right religion, super duper Muslim, and the right kind of Muslim I might add. Let Israel have its right way of doing it, Adoshem commands!

Well, maybe the Muslims will insist on a lot of changes around the world, for instance, they may want Sharia law for themselves in UK, France, Germany, Holland, Spain, you name it. Who in the heck are they anyway, no one else has any rights in Egypt, Iran, Syria, Tunisia, Morrocco, unless they are the right religion, super duper Muslim, and the right kind of Muslim I might add. Let Israel have its right way of doing it, Adoshem commands!

Well, maybe the Muslims will insist on a lot of changes around the world, for instance, they may want Sharia law for themselves in UK, France, Germany, Holland, Spain, you name it. Who in the heck are they anyway, no one else has any rights in Egypt, Iran, Syria, Tunisia, Morrocco, unless they are the right religion, super duper Muslim, and the right kind of Muslim I might add. Let Israel have its right way of doing it, Adoshem commands!

"Changing the anthem and the flag, to remove anything of reference to the Jews." - Jake Your picture is not big, just imaginary. Even if the Star of David is replaced by a book, the two stripes are still based on the design of the Talit. (The Jews are the majority still.) Changing the anthem doesn't mean you remove Jews. However you do it, it should be a singable anthem for all. P.S. Replacing "Jew" by Israel would not change much, and wcertainly will not make it acceptable to Haredim.

My country, my land, land of my ancestors (ooops) My country, my country, my country My people people of perpetuity With my determination, my fire and the volcano of my revenge (ooops) With the longing in my blood for my land and my home I have climbed the mountains and fought the wars I have conquered the impossible, and crossed the frontiers My country, X3 My people, people of perpetuity With the resolve of the winds and fire of the guns And the dermination of nation in the land of struggle Plaestine is my home, Palestine is my fire, Palestine is my endurance My country X3 My people, people of perpetuity By the oath under the shade of the flag By my land and nation, and the fire (fire again) of pain I woll live as a fida'i, I will remain a fida'i, I will end as a fida'i, until my country returns. My people, people of perpetuity. Talk about being inclusive, all this talk of fire, hmmm. So I ask where did their country go to?

The SoD is not a "Jewish symbol". It is a symbol of the previous times Jews were a majority nation. Unlike modern Arab States, those lands were not only for one religion and had people of multiple beliefs there. The SoD is a national symbol that is not at all part of the Jewish religion. The Crosses, Crescents and other Christian and Muslim symbols found on most flags are clearly religious while the Star is not. Tosefta just refuses to get it.

But do I understand you correctly, that Schocken has sold Ha'aretz to foreign investors? One step before deserting the sinking ship, I guess. P.S. When I first encountered your unique writing style, I grossly misunderstood you. It took me a while before I realized that you are a gem.

An Italian melody from 17th century, which found its way around Europe, including the Yiddish melody ?Prayer for the Dew? and was later picked up by Smetana when he wrote "Moldau".

amos schoken is correct right and conviencing we need to do something i think philohistorically speaking we need a differnert set of political cards so amos puts the wagon in front of the horse to solve our problem i mean the israeli plestinian issues we have to declare israel as a israeli republic and than write a constitution for the israelis including what we call wrongly in israel arabs not a constitution for the jews of new york and than we will be able to figure out how to make peace wwith our palestinian neigbours and create a future and maybe a middle east common market and hope we go towards a future with a song

Any seemingly anti-Zionist writings of mine, which there have been a couple of here, were intended as sarcasm. Sometimes I am not sure if the irony is actually noticed. Nathan, as opposed to "natan" however, seems to actually mean the drivel he posts.

Amos Schocken is obviously a misguided jew. Go live in one of the 22 arab nations. I am most positive that each one of those states has an all inclusive national athem for muslims. all others should promptly convert or die. Hatikva should stay as the anthem.

Changing the anthem and the flag, to remove anything of reference to the Jews. How about an Israeli anthem that Arabs can sing, you ask. By all means. As I said in post # 67, they could change the words "Jewish soul" to "the soul of a son of Israel" and "the ends of the East" to "the Land of Israel", the usual suspects will still complain that it is racist and excludes minorities. If Israel adopts "Jerusalem of Gold", Israel will be accused of "annexationist polices in occupied East Jerusalem". It's not about minor details in terminology, and you know it.

The day our temple mount is returned to us. I think it is disgusting that any religion thinks it is appropriate to appropriate another's most holy site. How would Muslims feel if Christians decided that the Q'aba belonged to them, and built a church on top? How would Muslims in India feel if Hindus tore down mosques that were built on Hindu temples, so they could rebuild the original Hindu temples? Probably the same, since Muslims don't give a squat about anyone else's dignity.

How can antheist Brittons identify with "GOD" save the Queen? How can French women identify with Let's march, "SONS" of the homeland? There is a limit on how inclusive and politically correct a state can be. Israel is the Jewish state, just as the United Kingdom is the Britsh state and France is the French State. Just as France is secular -even in schools- so is Israel Jewish, even in its anthem. That's OK, and Arab Israelis, Christian Israelis, Druse Israelis, Bedouin Israelis can live with that. All of them can identify with their larger ethnicity, -be it Arab, Druze or Bedouin- or with larger religion -be it Christian, Muslim, Baha'i- and live with the fact that they are citizens of tghe Jewish State. You don't have this debate in Great Britain, nor in France, nor in Germany, nor in China. Only in Israel, the holier than thou political correctness goes to these extremes of self-hatred. I think it's enough.

Have you ever heard of the Al-Mohajroon web site? I think Tosefta has.

ליון 144 פוקס בכרכור Hopefully this little note reaches you buddy. Now please give us a touch of Marxist Surrealist thinking.

IF ALL ARABS THOUGHT LIKE RAMI DO YOU THINK WE WOULD HAVE THIS KIND OF CRAP GOING ON TODAY???

Again I know you see exactly what I see. Al-Mohajroon and yes he is very good, but not Jewish.

Hey Danite, you seem to be lashing out in all directions today. What do you care what I say about the Left? Why does it get you so angry? Are you a worker? A Marxist Leninist? Are you still angry about the Rosenberg's? What gives. As for fooling anybody? I am not attempting to fool anyone. I am simply pointing out that the left is a fraud, and in actuality does not stand for anything of substance. You speak of liberal democracy, as if I am a totalitarian, get off it already! As an artist I need the freedom to create whatever I choose more than you do my friend. I am against censorship, and support the freedom to think and speak as I choose. Because I am tired of the self-reighteous arrogance and the numbing ignorance of these folks, am I a facist. I am not calling for their rounding up. But I will continue to point out the fraud that is called the Left today. And yes I am disgusted by Haaretz setting the stage for the de-Judaization of Israel

would be a good start.

I thought I was just on a talkback that was meant for English Speaking users. I must not realize the importance of this forum and its impact on policy.

Hey Leon, send me your number, write your numbers using hebrew words, this could work. I shall give you a call. Don't worry, the foreigners don't know the language and Tosefta is probably incapable of human contact. As for Danite he is a touch hysterical today. Arguing with Tosefta is rather frustrating since his mind is so terribly limited. I have a feeling that someday Tosefta will wake up, maybe when he reaches the age of shaving and maybe fathers a few children. It reminds me of Nathan Weinstock, author of "Zionism, the False Messiah" who is quoted as saying, (thirty years later). That if he knew that his book would become, 'the bible of the anti-semites" then he "would not have written it." Check out Stories of Dogs, 2003, an essay written by the reformed Mr. Weinstock. Makes interesting and informative reading. In the meantime we will have to suffer Tossi's anti-zionist rubbish and utter lack of creativity and humor. Some surrealist thoughts?

"a downgrading of Jewish national content in the school curriculum;" FYI, this is exactly what has been gong on for years. When my wife was in schoolm the curriculum included 300 chapters of Bible. When I weas a teacher, it was reduced to 150. Now that I'm an academic, it's 75 chapters. Less and less schools teach Talmud. Again FYI, I'm secular, but I believe we are losing our national identity and distinctiveness in part because knowledge of Jewish sources is decreasing. People like Amos Schocken take advantage of this situation.

I agree with this article, but I have a feeling that no Israeli Jew in the Knesset would back this up? Is this really possible?

Your other postings to these Talkbacks have been consistently anti-Zionist. Why the complete turnaround (for which I am happy, if it's really you)?

if he feels that he doesnt want to sing the anthem .None in Israel wants you or your distorted and sick world view!

Muslims wouldn't stand for "Jerusalem of Gold". First of all, they call the city al-Quds. Secondly, the title is from the Talmud. Thirdly, the song expresses the tragedy of the division of the city in 1948. And lastly, the 4th verse, added after the Six-Day War, expresses triumph at its re-unification. Now can you imagine a Muslim citizen identifying with all that? Think, for a minute, about Khaled Amariyeh (aka AK, KA, etc.), and his "Ta;mudic rabbis" who run the state, if notthe world.

Sorry, but as a Jew I have an emotional attachment to that tune. it goes beyond Israel. It's historic. Just make the wording more inclusive. There'll be howls anyway. But don't mess with my anthem.

Marilyn's anti-Zionist descriptions are reminiscent, in a way, of Holocaust denial. She depends on the ignorance of most people about the circumstances surrounding the formation of Israel, just as Holocaaust deniers take advantage of mass ignorance about the mass murder of Jews durig the Nazi pariod.

Your poor attempt - by childish name-calling - at defending a failing state is one of the symptoms as to why it is failing - immature, emotional and dangerous.

Danite, you have good intentions but you are so hopelessly making a fool of yourself and thus discrediting what you are trying to defend. Try to read a bit before you respond.

I am sure the author would approove that is a good way towards making arabs living in Israel feel equal the jews can celebrate indipendence day and at the same time nakba day can be an official day of mounring for arabs and jews. Israel was never meant to be a state of its citizens, jews dont make alliyah from wealthy European countries or the US every year because they want to come and live in a state of its citizens they come because they want to live in a jewish state.. There is no need to give up national ideintity to say to the arab world see we have better morral values than you do. What would they say in Saudi Arabia if we asked them to allow jews to live there again .. there was once a large jewish population at Mecca. Nobobody expects arabs or muslim to abandon the identity of their countries and they wouldnt agree if you asked them so why should jews be different? There is a jewish state arabs can live in the jewish state but thats how it stays thats Israels idienty.

Atleast He/She has a better sense of priorities!

Atem beseder hayom.Ani mapsout mimchem!

When the Bergen-Belsen Concentration Camp was finally liberated in 1945, those Jews that survived gathered for Sabbath Eve services among the heaps of stinking corpses that the Allies had not yet managed to sweep away. It was tyhe first organized Jewish prayer they had attended in years. They then burst out in "Hatikvah" and a BBC correspondent at the scene recorded them, singing with quavering but enthusiastic voices. I have the recording on my computer. This is sufficient reason never to change our national anthem.

Amos Schocken's position to revise and/or scrap Hatikva is nothing more than Post-Zionist nonsense--an attempt to remake Israel as a non- Jewish State. Next, will come the removal of the Star of David from the flag; the repeal of the Law of the Return; the removal of the Menorah as the State symbol; a downgrading of Jewish national content in the school curriculum; a separation of the Jewish religion from the State; and a State without a Jewish identity, etc. Next, advocacy for a binational state will follow, as first proposed by Martin Buber. As a result, the Arab World will end up with 22 Arab States (including a Palestine in the terrorities) alongside of a "temporary" a binational Israel/Palestine entity (with the Jews having no states of their own). I use the word "temporary," because the Arabs will work for the day that they are in the majority in order to scrap the binational Israel/Palestine entity. The Jews didn't come to Israel in order to create another Diaspora.

Who do you think you are fooling already.

I notice the author hasnt mentioned which government minister doesnt sing hatikva and wants it changed but I imagine its the arab that Olmert apointed to the cabinet and not mentioning who it is gives the wrong impresion to the readers here. The author has also failed to mention that a change to the anthem is just 1 of the many arab demands in their recent plan calling for a change of anthem, symbols of state and turning Israel into a country of its citizens not a jewish state. Israel is not an arab state it is a jewish one and the only reason it exists is to be a jewish state ... a country run by jews for jews if the jews wanted to live in a country of its citizens they would have gone to the US or Europe. The majority of the population are jews, the majority of jews are happy with hatikva as the anthem and majority rules and time for arabs and politcly correctness loving jews to shut up get on with life in a jewish state which has a jewish anthem if its a problem they can leave.

If you don't like it, then get the hell out.

Since Pravda and der strummer are no longer around or what they used to be, ever thought of North Korea? I hear great things are happening there, you would fit into that regime like a hand in a tailor made glove.Think of all the lies you could tell and be praised for it.Your dream job is calling you.Though I shudder to think of the type of tyranny your students must wither under as you stunt their potential forever by your use of terror tactice designed to force compliance.Is their a life size portarait of you in the class room?? Thanks ands have a great day!! Your friend forever Danite.

Dear FOX, thanks for the kind words, I wish I could write like you. I tried a few times to reply to you with some coordinates but was always censored. I wonder how we could outfox the censor.

"And even if the Magen David is a Jewish symbol, so what? Do British Jews press for changes in the Union Jack, which combines the 3 crosses of St. George, St. Andrew, and St. Patrick?" - Jake Wonderful speculation about the two Deltas comprising the Star of David. "many scholars agree", but only in your dreams. No scholar would agree because it is just speculation, with no ancient written or archeological source to it whatsoever. You are missing the most basic point. The Star is symbol of Jeudaism, and Arabs can only be offended by having such a flag, especially when it is also the flag of the Zionist movement. And Israeli Arabs are UNLIKE the Jews of England. The Jews of England are immigrants, they have accepted the British customs and nationality. The Israeli Arabs are natives; they have been here from ancient times and must be treated as co-owners. The flag has to include their contribution too. Rather than adding a crescent, I think a book will be fine. Note also that it is wise to use a flag different from the Zionist movement`s.

Do you like the way Tosefta abuses of your decency and humanity to to use you as human shields for his depradations.Warnings good gentlemen! Tosefta will abuse of any humanity for his own ends.he is no gentleman.Chamberlin thought he was dealing with gentleman, but churchill new better.Do you??

We have a national anthem for ALL the Israeli citizens : this is the HATIKVA most certainly. Those who do not agree with this should move out of Eretz Yisrael, the Homneland of the Jewish people and this includes Amos Shocken

As soon as there are synagogues in Saudia.

The Arabs who lived there were squatting on the other 93% of our tribal lands. Nobody ever claimed there weren't Arabs living on our land, but the term Palestinian, prior to Independence, referred to everyone under British control, upon whom all residents of the Jewish Mandate were dependent. Nobody ever "decided" to do any ethnic cleansing, nor was this done. While, in the course of hostilities, actions were taken to encourage the enemy to vacate positions, most of those Arabs who left did so at the behest of Arab leaders of the time. The so-called massacre at Deir Yassin was brought about more because of actions that Iraqi troops engaged in than as a result of intentional targeting of civilians, in stark contrast to what happened in Gush Etzion.

I echo others' comments about your grasp of historical fact, for you sure don't seem to know much. Your belief that Jews simply "decided" to ethnically cleanse 800,000 Arabs is a nice bit of Orwellian language on your part considering you fail to mention the 800,000 Jews expelled from neighboring Arab countries. Strange that the numbers are equal don't you think? Israelis do not claim that Arabs never lived in what is now Israel, nor do they claim that all Arabs left of their own free will though some certainly did while others were driven out. BTW - the periodic Arab riots during which scores of Jews were murdered and Jewish and Christian holy sites were desecrated or destroyed by Arabs indicate that Jews and Christians lived under the constant threat of Arab violence prior to 1948. You sure seem to have a lot of anger and just a little bit of fact - sad, Marilyn, very sad.

I must hand it to you Tosefta you are a spin meister of the cailbre of Goebels himself.The way you use even a stance of neutrality as friendship, how you pretend your aggressions are merely self defence (like germanys attack on Poland) and the way you declare yourself a man of peace (like Petain to ward off allied attacks) is truly really very good! Of course you like the original spin meister might fool the well intentioned and abuse of their decency for your indecent aims,but like Churchill and Orwell I am not fooled and I know the true nature of your game.and like them "I shall never surrender"

You will show that you understand things when you look at the essence and stop zeroing in on the trivial. Tanks for the Moscow Coordinates. So let us remove a million Ashkenazim from the people who would find the Hatikvah appropriate. But the Moroccans can find it OK, so lets add half a million Moroccan to the OK crowd. You have reduced the number of the Hatikvah-OK by a net of half a million. Are you happy now? Now let's change it even faster. P.S. Of course I was aware of these communities. Not going into fine details when the picture is clear. But you will shoot yourself in the foot just so that you can be annoying.

with a full mix of cultures in the place and no sectarianship then I would suggest MOVE TO NEW YORK! The re-birth of Israel, the Hope of Jews for 2000 years through persecutions and horrors was for the Jewish State in the Land of Israel! Who are YOU to "end it"

Hatikva is derived from a Swedish tune, discovered by Smetana in the 1850s when he was conductor in Goteborg. Smetana is one of those great composers who is not very well known outside his own land. http://www.nysun.com/article/44200

Hello Ivo, There is a little inaccuracy in what you say. I have nothing against Danite, except that he is dogging me endlessly. I do not initiate anything with him. But when he barks, I throw a bone at him. (Usually the bone is pre-canned.) Please see my post #61 to Dana. I have no interest in any fight and prefer peace and quiet which allow me to quietly post my thoughts.

I don't remember all the lyrics but but how about Jerusalem of Gold? Yerushalayim Shel Zachav or something like that.

deceased from the Jewish cemetries,as demanded by a great pal poet Mahmoud Darwish : "And take the bones of your dead with you"

ODP, There are two categories of gentile wine prohibited in the Talmud. The first is Yein Nesech (Wine used for libation for idols) and the other is Stam Yeynam (Just wine of gentiles, even if they just touched it). Of course the second category is much wider and this was the one used to limit social contact with gentiles. (See the Talmudic source cited in #58.) Since the days of Christianity, there is no longer a problem of actual libation. But the Stam Yeynam prohibition is in place. We get over it nowadays by the "mevushal". P.S. Thanks for "defending" me against Danite. It helps that he knows he should keep to his own business, but he quickly forgets his lesson.

The choice that shoken makes if perfidious in nature. Those people that made this country, died for it and have built it up, did not do so for a generic state devoid of character. It bled for a jewish state and a jewish people. Those who wish to deny their history and choose democracy rather then their Jewish nature is perverse. The jewish people have an absolute to statehood whatever the character of it will be. Western democracy isn't the only existent form of democracy. Its time to define jewish democracy...initiating jewish citizenship laws determined on values rather then blood. In that way no one may claim racism b/c it is about abstraction.

MARYLIN ARE YOU AROBOT ??/ BRITISH OCCUPATION FOR 30 YEARS LOOK IT UP ITS WAS CALLED THE MANADATE 1922

i watched in horror i saw human beings being dragged out of their homes by israeli soldiers in the land of israel. this was the most horrifying, reprehensible ,dispicable act on the darkest side of mankind. this terrible tragedy of human suffering upon jews gave me flash backs of kristlenacht 1939 in nazi germany when jews were being forced from their homes and businesses. it was so depolrable and disgusting that all jews, left, right were disgraced by it. this must never happen again whther the party is "kadima", "labor", "likud" or whatever. the israeli hellenist government can play politics as usual all they like. they can apease islamic terror, apease the west with any measure, but ethnic cleansing of jews will not be tolerated ever again. if the israeli government wants to "pull out" let them pull out, but leave the residents alone. israel used to be a success. now its a failure. all the blood spilled to return israel to the jewish people is being given up for free.

Is actually an ancient Tibetan symbol like the Swastika.The Tibetan Kings are some times shown wearing a hat with a Star of david on it and the Swastika was a very common symbol meaning good luck.These symbols made there way west.The Jews probably adopted the Star of David in the Middle ages.In the earliest record of its use when it was used as the official symbol for the Prague ghetto in the 14 th century i think.

Hi Tulip! How are you? Hope all is well, regards Danite

Hi Scary Goy!! Hows the jew baiting today?? Tell me Stalinist spinner, who controlled israel untill may14 1947.On whos wanted list was Menachem Begin.What were the war aims of the Arabs in 48 if not to snuff out israels existance as a State.Well you see, as an arrogant and ignorant hater who thinks she has us all figured out the term for the war in hebrew is better translated as the War of Liberation, which indeed it was.It was the War fought by the Hebrew Revolution against the dictates of Christian and islamic civilisations, and the attempted genocide at the hands of the Arabs.They left Israel no choice.I know you would love to see rivers of jewish blood flowing, but dream on poor loser.

You are so right! What a clever way to annihilate Israel, bit by bit.

About one year ago Tosefta and I had very good relations.However when I dared challenge him on his ludicrous assertions that "Hamas is moderating" I was then banished from the sacred precincts of the demi god.Thats fine with me, however it brought out in him some very disturbing elements.One of which, he has a severe personal hatred of Jews, which goes to the extreme of blaming the jews for the Holocaust.He is not an honest poster, he is here on his power ego trip.He must be confronted I and other are doing so.he is spin meister worthy of Stalins Russia. NO PASARAN!

Your post shows that you have NO idea of history!

Send the arabs to any one of the 23 arab countries and we can all sing Hatikva forver. This is a Jewish country, Amos, and we Jews intend on keeping it that way.

So the British blockade that sent refugees to Cyrpus was done with what? Strong language? Independence meant that Israel was no longer subject to the whim and will of the mandate. Perhaps you could tell us which day you celebrate, Australia Day? Foundation Day? Or Anniversary Day?

The name David in Hebrew begins and ends with the letter 'Daleth', which in pre-Exilic Hebrew letters was written as a triangle, almost like a Greek Delta. So, the Star of David basically says D-D, many scholars agree. How is that a symbol of religious exclusivity that would offend other citizens?! In Islam, David is considered a prophet. In Christianity, David is believe to be an ancestor of Jesus himself! In European monarchic traditions dating back to Charlemagne, David's rule is considered the ideal monarchy and the coronation ceremonies reproduce verbatim the anointing of King David with holy oil. David absorbed various peoples, including Canaanites, Hittites, etc. under the banner of the Israelites. And even if the Magen David is a Jewish symbol, so what? Do British Jews press for changes in the Union Jack, which combines the 3 crosses of St. George, St. Andrew, and St. Patrick?

If you look at it, most attempts to "blend the narratives" are the attempt of decietful arab nationalists to get Jews to "admit" to wrongdoing during 48 which will then justify their attempted genocide.In most cases it serves to further a hyper arab nationalist agenda.Secondly at this time it is best not to let the present and future get bogged down in History.Jews like every other nation wish to express themselves in their symbols and anthems.Why the Jews should be the only ones on earth to erase themselves for the greater good and world peace is beyond me.Israelis jews are going to have integrate the Arabs fully into israel, they can start by ending the discrimination, and the Arabs are going to have to accept to see a Star of David on the flag like Arabs accept seeing two crosses on the british flag.I think however a civic version of the antem should be available for those who want it.I think that is a good compromise.Regards

like it can go and become a citizen of another country, Israel is a Jewish dream, a Jewish Hope, Israel was born by that hope and on the dream of Jews sick and tired of persecution and humiliation in christian and muslim lands. It is to keep that Jewish dream that Jewish blood is spilled every day to defend it, also against the continuos hostility of many christians and muslims that do not tolerate the idea of a Jewish homeland. ISRAEL IS A SAFE HAVEN FOR ALL THE JEWS, it was born on HATIKVAH, and it will live on HATIKVAH, AM ISRAEL HAI.

The neurotic, dips--- Jew is personified daily in this newspaper. Amos and his buddies are worried about pleasing those who wish them dead - the Tibis and Bisharas and their supporters who openly rooted for Hezbollah, and urge Hamas not to release Shalit until the murderers in Israeli prisons are released. Earth to Amos : Your priorities are skewed - you should worry about the crummy state of the IDF and the ever increasing threat of a nuclear Iran. Nobody has done more damage to the Jewish state than Amos and his band of lefty numskulls - lastly, these fools are oblivious to the fact that those whom they seek to placate despise them.

What next 60 years? Who is to tell that the State of Israel would survive that long, given the catastrophic circumstances we know about? Besides, who decided that Hatikvah was obsolete because the Jewish people have succeeded beyond expectations? We are still facing anti-semitism throughout the world and the menace of disappearance in the Middle-East either through the actions of the Ahmadinejads of this world or through demographic inundation. Those who think we've already achieved our dreams are deluding themselves. Either our State remains Jewish or we don't deserve to be on this planet.

I don't believe it would happen, but it's a pretty thought. It could be sung as an appendix. By the way, it's only a small part of Hatikva that was taken from Smetana's "Moldau" piece, I think. Regards & shalom to you, -

There is no way Khalid wrote that (ie leon rosegarten) it sounds alot like you.Tell me FOX how would dewcribe your views? Hysterical pogromist lite?Blaming THE LEFT for sabotaging israel shows that the only thing that has changed since your marixist days is which group to demonise in that inolerant totalitarian way.You have not yet grasped the concept of Liberal Democracy.

Inshalla the SHALOM will come sooner then later

Years ago, in fact in the mid-1980's, when the Hatikvah was turned down as Israel's anthem in the Knesset, I knew that the days of the so-called State of Israel were counted. Without pride and hope, a people cannot survive. Today, because of the corruption at all levels of the State, we have none left. I still remember, at the time, suggesting that in order to placate the non-Jews in Israel, the flag should be changed. We should replace the Maghen David with a huge slice of watermelon. Everyone would be happy and, besides, it would be readily accepted by the International Red Cross Assocciation. What do you think?

Jews in Israel were never under the military or control of any other nation, they were living freely on 7% of the land with the Palestinians up until 1947 when they decided to ethnically cleanse 800,000 people out of their land and then claim they had never existed but they left of their own free will. What were they gaining their independence from? You can only gain independence and consider an Independence day if you were dependent and Jews in Palestine were not dependent on anyone. Strange Orwellian language isn't it?

It is south. In fact, longitudinally Moscow at 37° 36′ 56″ E, is to the east of Jerusalem, at 35° 13′ 0″ E . Another thing you forgot is that most of Israel's Sephardic citizens have North African, not Near Eastern, origins. In particular Morocco, called in Arabic 'Al Maghreb al Aksa' (the furthest west), is more to the West of Israel than almost anywhere in Europe.

Hello to you, - I don't think it's an issue of reconciling the 2 narratives nor do I see Shocken really going in that direction. This would of course be too much to expect & it's not a prerequisite for being able to live together (nor for making peace, by the way). It's possible that a change of the anthem wouldn't be accepted by most Jewish Israelis (in principle I wouldn't be against), but the other measures mentioned sound good & possible in my ears. They'd do no harm to nobody & would definitely better relations. The main problem w/this to me is I doubt the Israeli state & population would have the capacity to go this far at this point. They have much more pressing problems on their hands for some time to come. Just a note: you & a few others really have some personal account settings going on betw. yourselves & Tosefta, & without taking sides, this is going a bit too far sometimes. The ME conflict is enough, no? I'll try to comment more on this later tonight. Regards,

I think we have been here before! Ha'aretz is really mischevous in its articles and generates conflict where none existed before. About a year ago it proposed that the Israeli flag be replaced by one more "acceptable" to none-Jewish citizens. Does Ha'aretz actually believe in itself? I think not! Come on you lazy journo's, write something sensible and try to actually earn your pay rather than peddle this ridiculous nonesense!!

What does he think Israel is - the future home for 10 million Darfurians escaping jihad? When I say he is a 'fool' I am being kind. Only fools ignore History and the Fools List is very long so Schocken is not alone by any means. Jews lived first as slaves. Jews then embraced the Promised Land. Roman occupation and a war unlike any other war in those times resulted in Israel's destruction. For 2,000 years Jews lived mainly in the Diaspora but amazingly no one - Christian or Muslim claimed Israel as a nation nor made Jerusalem the capital of any entity. Now Jews are back in Israel and still facing extermination so I ask Schocken - what has changed in 3000 years to make the Hatikvah and Israel obsolete? Where is the world's good will towards Jews? What is so different today other than his imagination which is no so new either. Many Jews believed Christians or Muslims were trusted friends. They evidently paid for that idea with their and other Jews' lives.

as an anthem, the United Nations would pass a unanimous resolution of condemnation under Chapter VII.

If we aimed to be a "state of al its citizens" we didn't have to come back to the Middle East. We could have livwd in the USA or any other Western democracy. We are sick and tired of our Jewish identity being submerged among the Gentiles We want an unabashedly Jewish state called Israels where others are the minority group, not us. We give them civil rights but they have to realize that they are a minority. We are rebuilding ancient Judea and we called it Israel.

The Arabs can very well sing Hatikva. The problem has nothing to do with that, the problem is that most Arab Israelis, if given the choice, would wish the Jewish state away. There is nothing forcing a muslim from taking the Jewish and not the Arab. It is a question of choice. Just the other night I met a muslim kurd who during his university years was a member of the Jewish study organization and who would volunteer for the IDF if Israels existence was under serious threat.

#6, that is Peter, oversimplifies the roots of Hatikva. The music was around for a while before it was used with the text of "Hope". It is the theme of Smetana's "Vltava" ("Die Moldau) and was also used by Mozart as one of the variations in his Variations on "Ah Vaus Dira-je Maman.

When Greeks fly the Grek flag beside the canadian flag in front of a church does that also smack of double loyalty? or the italians? the only ones who suspect jews like you do are the anti semites with whom you seem to be evry close to in your beliefs.You have serious issues of self hatred.

The main issue with Sephardi would be the point of view, that looking towards the east. Making a geographic change is a minor alteration in the anthem. You push a tempest in a teapot. As for the flag, indeed, the Magen David is a Jewish symbol. As the crescent and star are Muslim symbols, and the Cross a Christian one. Tell you what, after you get all those nations using those symbols to change to something more universal, and I'll back you in changing Israel's flag as well. As for the national anthem's, I think that Israel's fare's quite well when compared with its neighbors and others around the world www.nationalanthems.info/yen.htm

Tosefta pours scorn on any who dont think like him.Yet dana has openely admitted that she thinks reality is best understood by conspiracy theory.Toseftas advise to her? Dont say so out loud, it is dangerous as I and other might use that against her.So we can see it is not really a question of what is being said but rather who says it, and whether that person is an acolyte of toseftas or not.here we have Toseftas grand hypocrasy exposed in very clear terms.

I am amazed that you have been able to insult the people of the nation of Israel in so many was. You have no shame. Who gize a sh-t about the arabs in regards to our anthem. You should rot in hell scum bag

Should we also change the way US one to include Spanish?? And the arab ones to include the Jews they violently kicked out? How bout make the germans include mentions of the Nazis because that was a part of them at one time too!! Brilliant!!! This writer has wayyyyy too much time on his hands!

Your evasions and obvious cowardice will not stop me from exposing you.You can lie and spin all you want, your answers only confirm my points.PS You get ZERO on the quiz.I scare you dont I.

Israeli newspaper writers really need a story when all they can come up with is this insane plot over and over again. Who are u trying to include? Why? What on earth makes you think the arabs would sing it if we changed it?? Is it the constant terrorism? The rocket fire? The constant threats towards israel as a whole? The complete and utter refusaal to accept israel in any way!? PLEAS EXPLAIN WHAT ON EARTH MAKES YOU THINK THEY CARE TO SING IT?!?!

Dont let your sense of justice be misplaced ODP.I am refering to issues Tosefta refuses to deal with in an honest way and I am calling him on his anti semitism.Do I need to wait for him to appear before I comment.If you wish to defend such an arrogant and insolent misanthrope go ahead, but I am not a bleeding heart Liberal.I am a Liberal but no bleeding heart.

The same israeli arabs that assist terrorists constantly would never sing ANY israeli anthem unless its words praised allah and the murder of jews. Dont forget history and make sacrifices to be accepted by terrorists who wont accept you anyway!!

Perhaps you should work on changing the violence laden Palestinian national anthem before working on Israel's.

If ever there was a slogan of Leftist Fascism, that is it. Why does it bother you so much that there are proud Israeli citizens that are not Jewish? I thought people like you loathed the idea of Zionism and a Jewish state. By the way, say hello to the Linap Indian chiefs, who used to live in Manhattan.

or 'Nefesh Israeli' (the soul of a Son of Israel/ Israeli), would it be accepted by someone like Azmi Bishara, who declared himself a proud PALESTINIAN ARAB? Personally, I see those Arab Israelis who have cast in their lot with the Jews and Israel as authentic sons of Israel, in every sense of the word, and I hope this is the prevailing view in Israel and across the Jewish world. But when leaders of the Arab community in Israel denounce these people as renegades and draft documents like "The Future Vision of the Palestinian Arabs in Israel", there is no reason to believe they will sing a 'Hatikva' in which they will identify with the words "The soul of a son of Israel".

Tosefta, Danite is also correct that the main reason is because we're afraid this wine would be used for libations. Actually, a gentile is allowed to touch wine a Jew is watching to make sure that he doesn't use it inappropriately. Also, there is such a thing as mevushal (cooked) and non-mevushal (non-cooked) wine. We don't worry that non-Jews will use that wine for sacrifices and therefore they can touch it. If you look at kosher wines, you'll see that they have mevushal on the label. That's the reason why. As a very minor point, it wouldn't make the wine non-kosher but rather wine used for idol worship.

Amos Schoken is correct that there is a government minister who does not sing the Hatikvah. He probably means Arab Minister Majadele. In fact, there are 4 more who don't sing the anthem, and these are the ministers representing Shas, the Haredi party. Both Shas and Agudah, the Haredi parties, are non-Zionists and refuse to sing the Zionist anthem. They believe that only the Messiah had the right to act on the Zionist dreams. Since the Arabs constitute some 20% of the population, the Haredim 15%, and other non-Jews some 5%, we have about 40% of Israeli citizens not singing the national anthem. It is time to change this situation. Amos Schoken considered particularly the inappropriateness of the Hatikvah for the Arabs. In fact, it is also inappropriate for Sephardi Jews (about 35% of Israelis; I previously used a figure appropriate to the pre-Russian aliya). Hatikvah speaks of Zion as located at the "ends of the East", which is true from a European/American point of view. Add to this the 5% other non-Jews and you find that 60% of the population view the words of the anthem as irrelevant. I would also suggest changing the flag, replacing the Star of David with a book. Let it symbolize scripture for all monotheistic religions, all ultimately derived from Jewish history. The star of David is so Jewish, that the Arab citizens must fill antagonistic to it. There will be another benefit. Many synagogues abroad display the Israeli flag along with their national flag. This smacks of double loyalty. They should display their national flag along with the PRESENT Israeli flag (with the Star), which is the official flag of the Zionist movement. It will no longer be another nation`s flag.

Maybe we should also rename Judaism as 'pre-Islamic' or rename the Hebrew language as the 'Language of Canaan' (which indeed it was called in the Bible) or, even better for the post-Zionist clique, 'North-West Semitic'.

Transfer the Arabs to Egypt or Jordan, leave us Jews alone!

Yes, and you are an incredibly insightful human being. Peace!!

Hello Dana, I thank you for trying to "defend" me, although I don`t think any of this will change anything. I will explain right away, but I first want to call your attention to the fact that Danite and I have NOT "been at it for a long time". I do not attack Danite on my own; in fact I try to ignore him and generally do not even read his posts. It is Danite who is after me (as a swarm of bees). In principle, I send in some reaction but only to keep the principle of "measure for measure" running. Let me explain to you something about Danite which I understood only recently, although the signs were there all along. Danite is a n apologist for the Jews and would not tolerate criticism, justified or not. But there are many such people and they don`t behave as he does. But Danite has a special problem of his own. I believe he has a learning disability (I am serious) which does not allow him to follow logic. I saw it in one attempt of his to get some information out of a legal document. He was completely helpless and couldn`t tell what was relevant and what was not. Quite remarkable; I don`t think I have ever witnessed such a thing. In the next Talkback forum (PM Olmert) I posted a few more instances of peculiar reactions. Take such an incapacitated "Defender of Judaism" and you get the kind of strange attacks he launches at me. Of course they are not justified, but go explain this to somebody who cannot process logic. I am sorry it happens, but this is a nuisance I can live with.

"What many refuse to realise is that Tosefta is not here to debate , he is here to win at all costs.He will go to any lengths including justifying Hitler to justify his own anti semitism.he is here for the ego boost he obviously lacks in real life." Is that why you're attacking him before he's started posting for today and when he's not around so he can't defend himself? :) You're just making him look better.

4. "You may notice [X] that in my statement PART of the reason for anti-semitism is Jewish separatism and sense of superiority. Whether you like it or not, this is a FACT, DOCUMENTED already in Hellenistic times. I mentioned it in the past as well. Facts are facts. As I explained recently to people who could listen, anti-semitism is not necessarily acquired rationally, but people get it from suckling at their mothers` breasts. And anti-Semitism is responsible for the Holocaust. Do you notice the sequence here?" - Tosefta "Who did the documenting in the Hellenistic times? The Greeks who held themselves superior to all others.They put down everybody, your"sources" are biased,would you use jewish sources to base your assumptions of greeks upon them? " - Danite "You are the biggest spreader of false info and lies, even to the point of repeating anti semitic accusations as if they were fact." - A later Danite retort You would think that to know why gentiles hate Jews you would ask the reason from the gentiles, not from the Jews (or Danite). But who can contest the fact of separatism? Since Danite knows about the drinking wine with gentiles prohibition, can he not put two and two together and relate it to separatism or even accept it? I am at a loss for words. Are we dealing with an impaired brain here or is it just a lack of practice to pay attention to details? Dear reader, do you have any idea for me as to what to do? Thanks a gallon.

3. "there is a Halakhic prohibition to drink wine touched by a gentile, etc. These prohibitions were designed to minimize social contacts between Jews and gentiles. And it worked." - Tosefta (First comment) "we are concerned nowadays with stam yenam, ordinary wine made or handled by gentiles. The Talmud forbids such wines as a precautionary measure to prevent socializing with gentiles since it might lead to intermarriage [Avodah Zarah 31b] or because those who use such wines might...be persuaded to apostatize." - Tosefta quoting a source (second comment) The issue was brought up against objections that Jews were not unusually "separate", continuing with the anti-Semitism issue. Danite the Jewish Apologist of course could not tolerate any statement seemingly critical of Jews. He jumped in: "Tosefta wrong. The prohibition against gentile wine is because at the time wine was used for sacred purposes by pagans and often whole vats of wine sold in the market were dedicated formally to a god." - Danite, first response (didn`t work against the source) "The Popes in the Middle agaes.. complained to many christians were going to houses of Jews where they might form too good an opinion of them.So because Jews couldnt drink genitle wine with Gentiles they were inviting Gentiles to drink with them." - Second response (against the source) The man does NOT get it. The Jews could not invite Christians home to have a drink of wine, because a TOUCH by the Christian of the bottle would have rendered the wine non-kosher. (And I am overlooking the fact that somebody who knows little of Halakha appoints himself Defender of the Faith.) (continued)

What do you do when an apologist is UNABLE to read straight and understand fine details? Can you argue with him? On what basis? Logic doesn`t work! Here are 2 examples from Danite the Jewish apologist! 1. "Today, Senator Fulbright would not have said that [Jews control the Senate] because everybody knows that the Jewish Lobby controls the US Congress on Israel-related issues. "In 1997, Fortune magazine asked Congressmen to rank the "25 most powerful" lobbying organizations in DC. In 2005, the National Journal did the same. Both times, AIPAC came in 2nd - ahead of, for instance, the AFL-CIO and the NRA, but behind the AARP." - Wikipedia" - Tosefta (with Wikipedia source in the original message) "Tosefta reasoning?? You claim as proof that the "jews sontrol congress" because "everybody knows" they do.Is that what you call reasoning??LOL" - Danite Of course, Danite the apologist could not remain silent when the well known fact about AIPAC was stated. Let us say that his rage blinded him to the evidence cited. But how can one justify the following exchanges? 2. "part of the reason for anti-Semitism has been Jewish separatism and sense of superiority. Hitler should have taught us of the terrible consequences. Instead, we are doing more of the same in the Territories." - Tosefta "Tosefta please remind the board about how Jewish superiority forced Hitlers hand against them,and how we have not learned the lesson in humility he was trying to teach us according to you." - Danite I tried my luck in making things VERY explicit: "Danite, please read my quote sloooowly and carefully, and then try to answer the following question: According to the quote, why did Hitler kill the Jews? (a) He hated them, in part for their separatism and sense of superiority. (b) The Jews forced his hand. (c) He was an educator trying to teach the Jews a lesson in humility. (d) He was an educator trying to teach the Jews a lesson in separatism." My attempt FAILED! Danite replied: "There is no difference between my rendition of your words and your actual words." I might as well talk to a piece of wood. (continued)

As an israeli arab, the current national anthem is the least of my problems and does not bother me a bit. I rather put my effort on being treated as equal and be given equal opportunity than worry about the lyrics of the anthem. My tikvah is for the day where a jewish soul and an arab soul can live in peace in this wondeful land.

You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately there are those on this forum that do not appreciate your words. Could be you are too subtle, like the breeze emanating from the flapping of butterfly wings. Most of the left, actually has no idea of what the Left is. I deem them Left-Lite, Diet-Left Mutating Left, or my favourite the Religious Left. Most of our "liberals" are actually simple victims of fashion. Whether it be clothing or media, they follow what is deemed "cool", "alternative" or revolutionary. (Cze t-shirts, cool!) Sadly they never dig deeper than their shallow impressions to understand the subject matter deeply. While Shocken has failed to sell well in Israel, except to the wealthier elements, he has discovered the European and West Left, as well as the Jew haters and the educated Jew hating Arab world. He will not have a fatwah issued against him. He is considered a friend in the Globalstan. Please fill us in more on the surrealism.

it is the time to bury all the racial and chauvenism idols why not the international anthem

We don't need anything meaningful just something catchy to play before the sports games. As for a flag? What are we fascists? To the people to whom the State has some emotional value yet, they will never consent or accept the change from symbol to "simple minded".

Because Israel is surrounded by Arabs who, in line with Islamic commands, need to rule "the infidels" and will not tolerate any independent non-Moslem culture in their midst. Accrodigly, the case of Israel is different from that of secular Western countries. Even though in many countries of Europe you will soon be learning the above Islamic tenets as well - the hard way...

Thank you, Mr. Schocken.

Many countries anthems reflect christianity despite their minorities. So what? DEmocracy is about the majority and civil rights. Not apeasement. The anthem reflects the soul and the Jewish soul is what the Jewish state is all about. Schocken is still rooted in the weimar of his parents. And as a descendant of such parents too, I know it was a failure. Dont transport it to Israel.Nostalgia begins at home, and Israel is a Jewish home.

Regardless of politics, from a musical point of view, I don't think "Hatikva" makes a great anthem. The melody was mostly plagiarized from Bedrich Smetana's "Moldau", is quite difficult to sing, is too slow, and offers too few crescendos for a national march. Personally I believe the popular song "Hevenu Shalom Halechem" would make a much better anthem both in terms of melody and words. Another good and meaningful choice could be Naomi Shemer's wonderful piece, "Jerusalem of Gold" (Yerushelayim shel Zahav). However, mainly due to political/cultural norms and taboos, changing or improving a national anthem has proven to be practically impossible in many other countries as well.

IS FOR ALL CITIZENS LIKE MUSLIMS AND REPUBLICANS ??? SO FEW LOOK IN THE MIRROR BEFORE POSTING

Moderate Muslims are just a different side of the same coin.

Wahabbists are into cultural jihad. Website deals with how to support this phenomenon, Al-Mohajroon. Instructions given in the art of blogging to subtly condemn Israel and the Democracies by using innuendo. Much like tosefta does.

"By the way: american jews sing G.d bless America,Hungarian Jews sing " G.d save our homeland, Hungary" American Jews sing God bless "America for all its citizen" and not "America for Christians only".

website. Maybe that is where all this devious innuendo comes from. I have noticed the post always use deception to turn the topic around to Israel and the feeling of ant-semitism comes through loud and clear.

I strongly believe Tosefta is a product of Al-Mohajroon. A website dedicated to propaganda on the internet, sponsored by Muslim cultural jihadists. I did ask tosefta if his lessons were going well. No answer.

Israel as a definition is a Jewish country. The yearning for the state of Israel is Jewish. The Israeli-Arabs are in fact Palestinians under Israeli control. Adding the Israeli Arabs to the anthem (a population of which more than 25% deny the holoaust, and of which great number would help eliminating the Jewish population if they could) is as asking Iran to add Jewish perspective to its own Anthem..... NO can do - I am afraid! (or maybe they should join the army????? 98 % of the arm sells to Palestininas is done by Bedouwins or Druze = non Jewish thus not to be trusted (I can understand it by the way.....) -----It might be better to find a solution with the Palestinians about creating 2 countries based on religious segragation - much easier for all ....and especially for the Anthem issue!

The by your definition Canada is a female immigrant and non christian hating state.In engish the words run OH canada! our home and native land(what about the immigrants?) true patriots love in all her sons(what about the women) command" In French the translation is "your arms are strong they carry the sword they know to carry the cross" what about jews Muslims and sihks.Do you see how your views are motivated by pure hatred and anti semitism? That is the crux of your matter.

Caro, you're post just indicates your own bias and is in no way factually grounded. The British national anthem is a pledge of allegiance to the monarch. It has little to do with ethnicity or religion. At no point does it mention the word Christian or British. I know many British Muslims who happily sing the anthem as being a subject of the Queen is not exclusively based on religion or race. In fact during the Raj millions of Muslims would have sung it. It is based on allegiance to a family. As for your statement about them trying to build a Islamic Caliphate in Britain, it is absolutely ridiculous. Most Muslims in Britain are moderate by nature with only a tiny radiclised minority. Tell me have you ever visited the UK?

You have said that the talmud forbade jews to drink the wine of gentiles in order to create a separation between them.The Talmudic passages are used by you to justify Hitlers and your anti semitism.But the Popes issued one Bull after the other forbiding Christians from socialising with jews in their homes.Could this be because jews could serve them beer?(yes) or alchohol? (yes) therefore it would appear that jews found a way to socialise with their gentile friends after all. Therefore lets see if you can take this quiz that even a retard could answer okay? The Popes forbade social interaction between jews and Gentiles because 1) They were really Jews 2) They had nothing else to do between crusades 3) Jews were not socialising with gentiles 4) Jews were socialising with gentiles 5) All of the above No lies no spin no ego games,please answer the quiz.Thanks you.

Several of the federal states of Nigeria have gone to Sharia. Parts of Indonesia also. Iran is implementing it nation-wide, just today there was an article saying the gov't gives citizens right to carry out vigilante "justice" (i.e. kill) those who are not behaving in an "Islamic way". Many Muslim states make it a crime to convert from Islam to another religion. In Canada they are trying to get the gov't to recognize Sharia law for the Muslims. The extremists are working in a step-by-step process.

"Govenment ministers are replaced..." It might be fast, but it's months. I think you need to change yours a bit more frequently. As for Hatikva, it's served for 60 years, not exactly an instant change...

Just like western democracies. Aim high.

This debate on the National anthem could lead to a National tantrum :-)

How funny Shoken is concern of the identity of the Arab minority lacking in the SYMBOLS of Israel expressions?!!Let me remind him that 2/5 or more of Israel citenzry has yet to find its Narrative symbolically expressed in the Israeli opus: the Sephardim. This is a mos gregious oversight than anyone; as far as the anthem: Try "La Marseillaise" "God Save the Queen"...italian, Spanish or Greek Anthems. I am not talking about the neighbours that is their rights, I want to protect mine.

When I asked him we should take views of non jews from jewish sources as proof positive of the nature of non Jews he ignores this and counters with "well how are we to know what non jews thought of jews? By using jewish sources"? Very clever but devious.How are we to know what gentiles were like, by using Gentile sources?? If Jewish sources are not be trusted re gentiles why are hellenistic sources to be trusted re Jews? Why? Because Tosefta must win.Tosefta must dig deep to justify his anti semitism, when using Hitler didnt work he now digs deeper into History.No doubt George Orwell had him in mind when he wrote 1984.It is people like Tosefta that committ all those horrible crimes in their eager service to dictators, all for an ego boost and power to overcome the powerlesness they felt as a child.All of that because they cant resolve their issues.What a pity that the rest of us have to suffer for their stunted personalities isnt it?