They won't forget and won't forgive?
While other minority groups suffer discrimination or humiliation at the hands of Israeli society, the national-religious camp enjoys prestige and inexplicable sympathy.
By Gideon LevyThere is a group in Israeli society that never pays the price for its craziness. It is a group that has caused severe and ongoing damage to the state, and - more than any other group - has produced characters who have endangered the democratic regime.
However, not only do we fail to settle accounts with them, the opposite is true. After an unsuccessful attempt to incite a mutiny and after the blow it received in the evacuation of a handful of settlements, it is returning to the stage as if these things never occurred. The silent majority looks on, apathetic and passive as usual, only now with unjustified guilt feelings.
If there is a place for guilt, it is in religious Zionism. "We won't forget and won't forgive" was the slogan of the gathering held by the religious right several weeks ago at the International Convention Center in Jerusalem. But this is what the secular, moderate majority should be saying. We won't forget and we won't forgive the blood that was shed in vain, the hatred their actions engendered, the injustices they caused, Israel's dubious stature in the world that stems from the occupation and settlements, and the shame every proponent of peace and human rights in Israel has experienced because of their behavior. But the majority forgets and forgives, enabling them to continue in their ways. And, therefore, this silent majority also continues to pay the price.
While other minority groups, such as the Arabs and the ultra-Orthodox, suffer discrimination or humiliation at the hands of Israeli society, the national-religious camp enjoys prestige and inexplicable sympathy. It is true that this group is the most active and organized in Israeli society, but does this justify the incessant attention given to the statements of every rabbi who, until quoted in the media, was unknown to most Israelis? Why do we need to receive periodic reports about the ideas of Rabbi Yisrael Rosen from Alon Shvut? Why is it so important to report in the newspaper that Ramat Gan's rabbi, Yaakov Ariel, has reached the conclusion that the national-religious camp must "upgrade the state" instead of disengaging from it, or that the director of the Rosh Yehudi program of Jewish study, Yisrael Zeira, has called for his camp "to invest in the fundamental task of illuminating the internal faith of the people"? It is true that some of these people exert influence over their flock, but the exaggerated attention paid to every statement they make only serves to increase their power.
The result is that the main point is forgotten - that we are talking about a minority. They comprise no more than a fifth of the citizenry, about the same percentage as the new immigrants from Russia or the Arabs of Israel. But these two groups can only dream of the attention and influence the national-religious camp enjoys. The meager attention they generally receive versus the compulsive focus on the mumbling of every rabbi only perpetuates these disparities of power.
Last summer, the leading camp in contemporary religious Zionism attempted to threaten the Israeli regime. The attempt to stir up a mutiny was an utter failure, and this camp found itself isolated, composed of mainly the religious. The defeat was absolute; the evacuation was accepted with indifference. But even after the defeat, we must not forget that this camp tried to impose its will forcibly on the democratic majority and did not succeed only because it did not find enough allies. We should settle accounts with this group over these aspirations - especially in light of the fact that these aspirations have not changed a single bit.
The attempts to portray this camp now as "beaten" and "bleeding" and "soul-searching" are misleading. They have learned nothing and have not forgotten anything. It is true that Rabbi Aviner has called for renewing the "face-to-face" campaign within Israeli society and that Zeira from Rosh Yehudi wrote: "We are responsible." But, in fact, while this camp is asking itself why it failed, it continues to believe with the same fervor in the rightness of its path. This cannot be called "soul-searching." No one has risen up and asked: Perhaps the entire matter was fundamentally wrong? Perhaps the path was distorted from the outset? Perhaps the defeat testifies to the fact that there is an absolute majority that is not prepared to accept this path and maybe it should therefore be abandoned? Perhaps the real historic mistake was the fact that we settled in a land that did not belong to us, while causing horrible injustice to neighbors and imposing an insufferable burden on the entire society?
Instead of this, they are trying to examine where the tactics failed: Did the leadership let them down? Were the methods of struggle wrong and did they invest enough in public relations? They are trying to win the hearts of the people again. We must block their path. Israeli society has paid enough for their lust for power and greed for land, and until they turn away from their harmful path, we should turn our backs on them.
Ironically, instead of hearing the majority express this view, we are hearing calls from the national-religious camp to "disengage from the state." But we must disengage from them, castigate and ostracize them - until they do some true soul-searching. At a time when the National Union party is embarking on a campaign whose slogan is "Returning to Orange," it would be fitting for the majority in Israeli society to remember this color as a sign of dreadful disgrace.
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I am absolutely convinced that no Jew would willingly or wittingly harm Moslem holy places ! I am equally convinced, from experience, that it is the Moslems who destroy other religions sacred sights ! Read your history Khaleed !
I find the degree of spite in your article quite disgraceful !!! I think you forget where the saying of "we wont forgive and forget" started !!! You are very arrogant by condemning a whole group of Am Isroel with your smutty brush !! I think that you are most unprofessional !
To the Jews reading this site: I recommend "From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters. A very long read, but plenty of factual information to give background on our lovely Moslem friends , our putative allies, and the world of international poitics. "People have friends; nations have interests". Also, "Perfidy" by Ben Hecht; "The Secret War Against the Jews" by John Loftus and Mark Aarons. Learn about the 'Grand Mufti' and his love of Nazis; learn about George Bush (Father) and OIL; learn about the deviousness of US State Department (devious in more than one way); learn about murder of Jews by Jews (Altalena affair). Then, if you are a Torah-oriented Jew, start reading Rav Avigdor Miller's books (in excellent English) for a Jewish way to think about life and our history.
My first visit to the Haartez website, and I ran into this self-hating, Jew-hating fellow. Then I read the incredible, garbled defenses, most without logical content and pro-Pal/Moslem Jew-murderers! Amazing! What an indictment of those Jews who wish to live "like all the other nations". Gideon, G-d didn't make you a Jew in order to make you goy! Chareidi Jews (I include myself) do not hate Jews. We feel pain at their rebellion against Hashem and His Torah. We literally pray for their teshuvah. Great Torah sages had opposed the settlements decades ago, - but...now that there are Jews long resident there - how could the Sharon administration deliberately expel them without a coherent alternative plan for their livelihood, children's educatin, etc.,etc. And the bald lie that running away would improve Israel's physical security - even the senior IDF, GSS and other knowledgeable people mocked this. If you look behind the whispy curtain of the "Disengaement Authority"'s public relations releases, , it is just like the Emperor's New Clothes. However, it is much more brutal in its effect on Jews' lives. Hasem yeracheim!
Ezreal, You might be interested in looking these two URLs below over They are about the US and English diplomats who wrote to Bush and Blair last Spring condemning their acceptance of Sharon's "new realities". Remember, these people ate and slept Foreign policy for the last 30-40 years. ( i didn't have time to pull them up earlier.) Dutch http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3681641.stm US diplomats launch Bush attack http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3660529.stm Diplomats slam Blair on Mid-East
Friends, opponents, Jews and Gentiles alike! While some of you are sincerely looking for a solution to the intractable problems of Middle East settlement (which is a zero-sum game), please! oh please! Don't allow the scum who gets paid per review, per talkback issue, to earn their bloody money. Sonner (perhaps, later) a solution will be found here, based on the balance of FORCE and good faith. The former won't allow to Khalid and his ilk to dictate their worldview to others, the latter will guard the well-being of the tribes the way we preserve the wild nature. Yet those who wish to perpetuate the bloodshed must be shown a door. Anywhere, please, Sir Khalid. A way to go, Mr. Truth.
No matter what is written, our sweet buddy Khalid finds appropriate words to explain that things are not really as bad as is anticipated. My friend! (or is there any other customary way of addressing people on a Shuk that your brethren wants to cheat?) Please stop stpoiling these pages. May I suggest that you open a beacktalk (or talkback) pages to Al-Ahram and have your faithful audoience there? they would be much more eager to buy what you want to sell them, believe me, my friend!
Ezreal. While it maybe true the US Administration is unlikely to move against Israel on UNSCRs and ICJ rulings they still have come under a lot of pressure from within the alliances to act in a decisive manner against Israel. Thus I think the language changes from Isreal must stop settlement expansion as they are unlawful to Israel ought to stop their settlement expansion and not prejudge a final status agreement takes on essentially the following:character as Johanes pointed out earlier-- without not pushing Israel over the edge: UNSCR 465 -"5. Determines that all measures taken by Israel to change the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure or status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, or any part thereof, have no legal validity and that Israel`s policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in those territories constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East"- ICJ ruling -"Settlements established by Israel in breach of international law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory"- 4th Geneva Convention The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. Article 50 -"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."- In addition, there are many souces on the previous six US presidents from Nixon to Bush,sr and their advisors speaking out against the illegality of Israeli settlements. For now, I will just quote you this one from the US Ambassador William Scanton in the 1976 from the NewYork Times: "Resettlements of the Israeli civilian population in occupied territories , including East Jerusalem , is illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention" . Hence. the terms of the Fourth Geneva Convention has been the bedrock of US policy all along and efforts to Whitewash them to accommodate Israel's have never been fully endorsed. I think ths is self evident in the lettter 60 retired American and British diplomatics send Bush and Blair last spring condemning their acceptance of the "new realities on the ground " as against international law. Anyway, thanks for now. Dutch
Ezreal. While it maybe true the US Administration is unlikely to move against Israel on UNSCRs and ICJ rulings they still have come under a lot of pressure from within the alliances to act in a decivise manner against Israel. Thus I think the language changes from Isreal must stop settlements as they are unlawful to Israel ought to stop their settlements and not prejudge a final status agreement takes on essentially the following:character on what Johanes Franzen pointed out earlier in his post -- without not pushing Israel over the edge: UNSCR 465 -"5. Determines that all measures taken by Israel to change the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure or status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, or any part thereof, have no legal validity and that Israel`s policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in those territories constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East"- ICJ ruling -"Settlements established by Israel in breach of international law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory"- 4th Geneva Convention The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. Article 50 -"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."- In addition, there are many souces on the previous six US presidents from Nixon to Bush,sr and their advisors speaking out against the illegality of Israeli settlements. For now, I will just quote you this one fromthe US Ambassador William Scanton in the 1976 from the New York Times: "Resettlements of the Israeli civilian population in occupied territories , including East Jerusalem , is illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention" . Hence. the terms of the Fourth of the Fourth Geneva Convention has been the bedrock of US policy all along and efforts to Whitewash it to accommodate Israel have never been fully endorsed. I think ths is self evident in the lettter 60 retired American and British diplomatics send Bush and Blair last spring condemning their acceptance of "new realities on the ground " as against international law. Anyway, thanks for now. Dutch
You are still in your unsistenable rambling. Read the current economic publications, European and North American, the are pointing to an extremely growth of the Israel economy. It is funny, dutch, that China and Israel, have produced more billionaires than the rest of the global participating economies. You are probably frustrated to find out that all the academic , political and economic attempts by various groups at the legitimacy of Israel, failed. Poor dutch, you cannot gat over it. But, there are number of posts, amoung the knowledgeable Jeff Northridge, who are bring to the attention of people like frenzie, yehyeh, the guy from Winnipeg, and yoyrself that the international community has no legal standing as to the enforcement of some skewed UN decisions. dutch, I thought once that you are reasonable thinking person (I am convince, from your style, that definitely your are a nice female), but after reading some of your posts, I came to realised that any effort to reason with you is just waiste of time and effort: but, I still wish to you, franzie, and the rest of BRAYERS a good year.
This is what the left do not want to admit.
Anyone with eyes and ears and half a brain know who did the most damage to the Israelis and to the Palestinians. Just remember what it was like between the years 1967 and Oslo when Arafat and his henchmen were brought here from Tunis. Be honest for a change.
Wake up Israel don't let these right wing zealot zoinists give Israel a bad name. They are destroying relations with your Arab brothers. Use the IDF to remove these evil nazi like people from the west bank, and give it to the Palestinians. All Israelis are complicit with the evil settlers unless you speak up and take action against them. Restore Israel's good name in the world before it is too late. The whole world is watching you.
Hello, Realistic: in your example to Kim regarding a Hamas member blowing up a bus to avenge the beating of his parents by settlers, it would probably have been apropos to mention that suicide bombers are out to avenge in the main specific extra-judicial assassinations of militants who get blown away by the Israelis, or, in the case of one female bomber, the deaths of family members or friends, following the code of the lex talionis. I do not by any means agree with this bloody practice. There are exceptions, such as the parents of the thirteen year old boy who was killed by an Israeli soldier. They donated his organs and saved both Jewish and Arab lives. However, it appears that the bloody cycle will continue with both sides wanting to fight back incessantly. The Palestinians do not attack without brutal provocation. And for every Palestinian attack, there is Israeli retaliation. And then the Palestinians have to retaliate for that attack. No one is entirely innocent nor entirely guilty. I do agree with you that a rational human being should see with both eyes and eschew tunnel vision.
i believe you
Elias, what were God's intentions for the rest of the humans who existed and developed their civilizations at the same time as the Hebrews or Israelites? What about the Sumerians, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Hittites, the Egyptians, the Philistines, the Idumaeans, the Nabataens, the Greeks, the Romans, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Indians, the Celts, the Germanic tribes, the Mayas, the Aztecs, the Incas, etc.? Did God pay attention only to the Hebrews? I cannot comprehend thelack of scope in your thinking.
Elias, what were God's intentions for the rest of the humans who existed and developed their civilizations at the same time as the Hebrews or Israelites? What about the Sumerians, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Hittites, the Egyptians, the Philistines, the Idumaeans, the Nabataens, the Greeks, the Romans, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Indians, the Celts, the Germanic tribes, the Mayas, the Aztecs, the Incas, etc.? Did God pay attention only to the Hebrews? I cannot comprehend thelack of scope in your thinking.
Great article Gideon. Keep up the good work and tell the World and all of the Jews what the settlers are like.
"Maybe you should spend more time with palestinians,you will change your mind,they simply want to live and have a good life like any human being" However, their authorities, the PA, prevent them from living like any other human being.
You give a voice of truth to those who don't want to accept it and it is refreshing to hear your point of view. There are wrongs done on both sides of the battle for the land of Palestine and Israel and we should accept the fact that we are also responsible for faults and not always try to blame the Palestinians for everything. Don't they have enough problems of their own!
" if you think its ok for settlers to do bad things to "decent people" (ie the Palestinian villagers" for the actions of the terrorist groups, then you`re also giving the ok for the terrorist groups to target "decent people" (ie innocent Israelis) for the actions of the settlers." Then it is the same for you to cut up a tree as to murder Israelis.
You need an education yourself. What you and khalid say is fairy tales.
12.DO NOT CURSE ISRAEL AND JEWS, because GOD WILL CURSE YOU, He said it clear to ABRAHAM: "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" (Gn.12:3). 13. ISLAM was created by men, the TRUTH OF THE BIBLE COME FROM GOD ITSELF. The BIBLE contains historical datas THAT CAN NOT BE DENIED. 14. BIBLE has datas about personalities like FARAOH, MOSES, DAVID, SALOMON, NEBUCHADNESER, DARIO, CIRO, JESUS (THE MESSIAH), etc. Places, name of cities, names of rivers, names of tribes, names of peoples, etc. that its existence can not be denied. 15. BE HUMBLE AND ACCEPT ISRAEL AS THE PEOPLE OF GOD, AND JESUS AS THE MESSIAH OF GOD, and you will be BLESSED BY GOD."""""""""""""""""" Sure I agree with most what you said.I as a muslim accept people of Israel as people of the Book,I love and await the second coming of Prophet Jesus as all muslims do. I do not have no malice for christians or jews of teh world as commanded by my Lord.The names of the Holy men in Bible are also the Holy Men in Holy Quran.They are sacred to us also. I do not hate israel or jews,I simply find it unacceptable what jews do in name of israel and judaism to people of palestinians. Criticising a nation for their faults and crimes does not mean we hate you. Maybe you should spend more time with palestinians,you will change your mind,they simply want to live and have a good life like any human being
As much as I find your beliefs to be highly fanatical and rigid,I can't help but find it amusing.maybe you are forgetting That this land is promised to the SEED OF ABRAHAM not just the jews,No you don't have any land deed over this land,we live in 21st century.wake up where no nation can be entirely one race or religion.There isn't a single nation on earth which can be termed 100% one race or faith.So the dream of greater israel is just a myth. The seed of Abraham are children of Ishamel and Issace alike.If you try to drive your cousins out,you wont be able to have peace yourself. I dont know much about judaism but i am sure it does not condone blasphemising other people's faiths and trying to ridiculing them as you have been doing in your posts. Islam gives us strict instructions to respect all faiths,especially judaism and christianity,that is why you will never,NEVER hear a muslim drop so low and start accusing Torah or Allah forbid Prophet Moses for the sins of man or the violence in a country or a society or people of a faith. That automatically raises ISlam to be superior as a humane religion,and you lose. you profess your loyalty and love to Torah yet you do exactly the opposite and show your venom. Propagating to get rid of a muslim Mosque or to demolish our holy sites isnt exactly very jewish of you and hardly contribute to peace. Muslims and Islam has never bowed to no one,We can respect you as people but quit dreaming,If you think salvation of muslims lie in becoming jewish,you are so mistaken.That ain't happening dude. Salvation lies in love and tolerance,and you dont have to be a muslim or jew to know that.One of greatest examples of salvation are found in Christianity. so bill learn to love for a change,you just might become a better human being. And don't thank me for driving some sense into you,its part of my new year resolution,to tame more jews and make this world a better place. :-)
Amin Nusseibeh "guilty are the jews" "Pack you bags" Islam is tolerant. Your statements are a disgrace and totally unacceptable. You are a disgrace to Islam!
Castrate them... they will cease to repeat themselves.
So fear not MEOW for Islamic sites in Yerushalayim and wake up to the destruction taking place in the heart of the Islamic world by your Muslim brothers"""""""""""""""""""""" You must be out of your lil jewish mind,ezrael how dare you make up such lies upon islam again,I guess you guys never tire. The saudis are teh custodians of the Holy sites,they wouldnt destroy it,if they did the whole muslim world would cause an uproar. Give me the sites please,you blew my mind,they cant possibly be doing this is Holy land,They would never astagfirullah demolish holy sites. Please I need to know more.
At least you admit that the Jews were there before the Muslims. Khalid, though, says that Islam existed in Adam and Eve`s times""""""""""""""""""" Kim Khalid is right,Islam in its spirit and its essense existed from the begining of mankind and even before heavens and earth were created.By that we mean the messege of justice,truth and Peace of islam. As a religion it emerged in the world 1400 years ago,So i know what khalid is talking about when he says Islam existed at time of Adam and Eve.
the hallowed pages of Takback are once again at the fingers of our intrepid fashion design student, Mona~~~~~~. We are to be treated with many an inane, hate filled stream of bumble gum chatter.""""""""""""""""" Maybe you have a Prob with my chosen profession because it does not involve any killing or injustice,humilation or systematic ethnic cleansing of a nation. or maybe you find that Truth hurts too much especially when it comes from enlightened,emancipated muslim woman. Anyway you look at it,I ROCK and am back to rock the rest of you. Part of my new year resolution is to make sure israelis are more aware and more humane people on earth.
Which is how you and Khalid respond when you have no answer. You insult. You rant. You belittle. Answer Dr. Gross's valid points sweetie. Try to stick to facts, no personal attacks.A little actual history would be nice.
It is amazing that anyone who doesn't agree with you is unintelligent. Stop insulting people (Dr.Gross) who utilize their free speech rights here. Who awarded you the Nobel Prize?
You know something Khalid, JEWS HAVE RAN OUT OF TIME. OUR HAND HAS BEEN EXTENDED AND LOOK WHAT YOU HAVE DONE. MAYBE YOU SHOULD REPENT. STOP PRETENDING THAT YOU ARE A MINORITY GROUP. THE JEWS ARE THE MINORITY. THE ONLY REASON THAT ISRAEL HAS WON ALL THE WARS, IS BECAUSE WE JEWS ARE TIRED OF BEING KILLED JUST BECAUSE WE ARE JEWS. GET IT KHALED.
From the Book of Levy: Zionism CANNOT have any religious element whatsoever, despite religion being the means by which Jews became a people, and the sole basis for why Jews came to live and stay in Eretz Yisrael. Zionism is NEVER acceptable if it includes the desire or wish of Jews to live on land that historically belonged to and was part of the Jewish people. Any desire or wish to live anywhere in the land is of and in itself WRONG and we must only practice selective, extremely limited geographic Zionism as pre-determined by Arabs or Gideon Levy! The Tel Aviv area is ok. Religious Zionists are the WORST form of Zionists simply because they are RELIGIOUS, even if what sustained our people in exile and led to our return was our religion, while some were lost to us or assimilated over the centuries. Applying souless " Levy Zionism", Gideon should instead living in Uganda and writing in swahili, or getting ready to leave for Alaska as the Iranian President suggested with a couple of warm sweaters, because there is simply no basis for him to be in Israel in the first place. Hatikvah as " To be a free, religious-discriminating non-religious people in our severely geographically restricted homeland, only some of the land of Israel, and only the acceptable parts of Jerusalem?" Gideon?
Abla, it is very generous on your side, but you have to think about others who live in Boston...
Should they decide to leave Israel, I will be more than honored to accommodate in my house all 4: Amira Haas, Gideon Levy, Akiva Eldar and Meron Benvenisti. I will make sure that they are healthy and happy so that they can continue to be the voice of justice in hopes that they can reach more Israelis.
SHOW US THE WAY. MAYBE WE JEWS HAVE SINNED JUST TO MUCH, PLEASE REB GIDEON LEVY, SHOW US THE WAY. lEAD US IN PRAYER, BECAUSE ONLY YOU KNOW THE WAY (TOGETHER WITH KHALID) HOW CAN I FORGET.
It's hard to a believe that an allopathic or an osteopathic school of medicine would award somebody with as little intelligence such as yourself, a medical degree. It might just be the 5-alpha reductase inhibiting the neurons in your head, but your little "history" lesson, called Palestine-Denial, is very sad. How about you stop prescribing yourself controlled substanced, because that's illegal and against AMA policy, and re-read some history textbooks, especially regarding PALESTINE and it's citizens (you'll even find Yitzhak Rabin, a Palestinian) in there too! FREE PALESTINE!!!!!!!!!!
Even though you didnt fully stick to what I was asking, because I asked you to try not to retort to saying "Pal" or whatever in the post. So when you say "decent people", you're referring to "innocent Palestinian villagers", correct? But then you're saying that the "Israeli" who did it was fed up with terrorism and "Pal" supporters. So you're basically saying it's ok to target a bunch of "decent people" because of the actions of "indecent people"? If thats what you're saying is correct, do you think it's ok for a Hamas member to blow up a bus in Tel Aviv, because he was fed up with the settlers beating up his parents while they tried to plough their farmland? Because technically, if you think its ok for settlers to do bad things to "decent people" (ie the Palestinian villagers" for the actions of the terrorist groups, then you're also giving the ok for the terrorist groups to target "decent people" (ie innocent Israelis) for the actions of the settlers. What's your take on that? FREE PALESTINE!!!!!!!!!
Dear S, You have once expressed yourself with anger about my views, which tend to be to the left of most people here, so I assumed you were rightwinger. Am I wrong? (I actually think of myself as the "rational center", but people here would not know what this means. So let me be Left while I am on travel.) As it happens, I just made a posting to Jeff Northridge a few hours ago, complaining about his post #140. After reading your post I realized that Haaretz censored that valuable post of mine. I will now try sending it again. (P.S. I did communicate with Jeff a few times in the past.) Hope you have a happy new year, and I hope Haaretz puts an end to the career of that identity thief who has nothing to offer on his own, other than the opposite of what other people think. BG
Strange thing.One starts out reading an article and agrees with the general premise. The religious extremists must not call the shots. Then you read the comments from the other side such as those put down by Amin Nusseibeh and realise that all the whole armoury is in their (the extremists) possesion and the killing will go on and on. Because however reasonable Jews and for that matter Arabs want to be, sharing the land , creating an independent Palestinian state it only takes just a few looneys to let loose with a cannon to ruin it all. Amin has his cannon already loaded and points it directly at the Jews telling them to go back to where they were once done to death. Mr Nusseibeh I have to that you will have to keep firing and firing that cannon until your ammo is all spent and after that you will find the same ruins left in the middle east as once was found in Nazi Germany in 1945. What a great thank you you will get from the survivors!(not)
what is so hard for the 2 sides to agree while we negotiate no setllements no bombs? Why is this so hard?
Please read post #174 for some background. The impostor Ben Gurion wants you to believe that History has no meaning. For your edification I would also like for you to read what happened in 1967 when Hebron was captured and who captured Gush Etzion. Revising history is dangerous and suicidal for the Jews.
If no one minds, let's address the underlying assumption of the Levy article: the power of "the settlers." They are hardly powerful. Look, the Israeli extreme Left is the minority with real power. The Supreme Court is controlled by them (dominated by Aaron Barak), as are both Labor and Likud (the PMs whether "Left" or "Right" end up behaving as Leftists), and the media (largely government controlled) are overwhelmingly extreme Left. I think the Israeli Left is a disaster for Israel, just as it would be a disaster for the US. Clearly, though, there is no doubt who rules Israel. Incidentally, the idea that the religious Zionists never "pay the price" is hilarious given the fiasco in Gaza.
Dutch is Good peace activist. We need more Muslims like you for our Umma! Salam!
"Jeff, Dismissing the law because you say it is non-binding and unforcible is a grave mistake. Israel`s violations can be used by the Security Council to call for sanctions and isolate Israel from world markets and organizations". Firstly Dutch, Jeff merely pointed out to you the fact that those Resolutions and rulings etc are not legally binding and are in effect advisory. He is not responsible for that. Your assertion that the security council can impose sanctions on Israel is self evidently true. Israel is no exception and is subject to the UN charter like any other nation. But lets stay within the realms of reality for the purpose of intelligent debate. There is no likelihood of any security council measures, such as sanctions against Israel in the foreseeable future. Even if G Bush had not won the last election, there is little doubt that Kerry would have been at least as supportive of Israels position as Clinton was before Bush. The next president Mrs Clinton? Guillani ? Condalleeza ? whoever it may be is almost certain to be broadly supportive of Israel. This is even likely to be the case with the UK, unless the Pals show some ability to control their own populace in Gaza.Israel only needs one Nation on the security council to defend it, and I'm sure you realise this. So why fantasise? Second, I want to reply to your oft said remarks made again today regards 6 American presidents calling Israeli settlements illegal. That is simply erroneous. What are your sources for such a claim? (Boston Globe, Farah Stockman, 4/15/04): Since the 1967 war, when Israel captured Gaza and the West Bank, US policy has regarded settlements in those territories as illegal under international law. Correction (5/5/04): Because of a reporting error, an April 15 Page One story on US policy on the Middle East incorrectly stated that since 1967 US government policy has regarded Israeli settlements in the West Bank and the Gaza strip as illegal under international law. The Carter administration held that settlements were illegal. Subsequent administrations, including the current Bush administration, have opposed settlement activity but have taken no position on the legality of the settlements. Do you understand? Regards Ezreal
Hello BG So,I am right wing,how do you know.Are you a mind reader. Be that as it may,if this comes out (seeing the difficulties the talkback has experienced today).A question to you.How come I never see you sparr,respond or anything with Jeff Northridge? He is a fine man with balanced views and talents.I would like to see one post you may put to him with your views and I'd be very interested of its outcome. S p/s Ha'aretz please let dear BG see and read this.Even if it is tomorrow.
Khalid-how disingenuous. Yesterday YOU said "wait till we have the bombs" "we are growing in population by millions and will destroy you" etc today you cry Israel wants to use it the bomb and wring your hands like a wash woman. If Israel wanted, she'd have blown you to smithereens years ago hon. Dutch-you admit finally Israel made the desert bloom then blame it on using 3/4 the water. But you claimed you were here all alone before 1948. Why didn't you then make the desert bloom when you had ALL the water? Cause all you know is to destroy. Yes the settlers act like criminals now. But they were used as human shields from the pals much the way the pals use their own children. But marvel at how the settlers built beautiful cities, prosperous businesses etc. No matter how much money the pals get fronm the EU and their rich arab friends, all they do is destroy, build bombs and live in squalor. The jews had no money from anyone in the 50's and 60's and built beautiful orchards, hospitals, universities. When will your people -those you support- show anything but a proclivity for murder and war? I don't defend the settler's destruction. They have been used and are angry. But they are wrong and should be prosecuted. Ofcourese I can think this because unlike you I can see both sides. Visit Isreal once and use your own eyes.Stop listening to the pr.
Kfir, There is somebody on this board faking my signature. When he pretends to be me, he assumes a rightwing identity, contrary to my own. (See my posting #80.) He also assumed today other people's identities. S is right wing, so the faker pretended to be leftwing in his place. (See post #125.) The faker has no ideology or core beliefs of his own. Better ignore him. He craves attention but has no merits to gain it on his own. Regarding Hebron and its settlers, all of us are very aware of the 1929 massacre at Hebron. Should today's Arab residents be made to pay for it? Should the settlers even remain there for good, deep in what would be the State of Palestine, and remembered and hated for their own pogroms? Let me remind you, Kfir, that the Jewish Yishuv accepted in 1947 the UN Partition Plan, which would have left Hebron within the Palestinian state. Israel gave up on Hebron in 1947, knowing full well what happened in 1927. Israel also gave up on Gush Etzion, which was to belong to the Arab state. The Partition Plan did not require population exchange. The population was to remain where it was; Yaffo Arabs were to become Israelis and Hebron Jews were to become Palestinian. I have no objection to the Hebron settlers becoming residents of Palestine, but they have committed so many crimes against the locals that this is no longer possible. But if they are willing to stay, their property rights should be respected (of land and houses not stolen from the Arabs), and they should remain under Palestinian rule. Good riddance to these criminals.
Howdy Dutch; There is no movement in the UN to do squat against Israel--at least not anything with any teeth to it. The Israeli economy is on the way up--not down. Just to get your goat, I invested some money in an Israeli telecommunications company and its doing quite nicely. Today is Sunday and I have to go and barbeque some meat. Talk to you later. Ciao.
Howdy Amin; You said, "There is no historic claim of Jews to any of Palestine, and therefore we have no desire to share it with you." Well, there are several things wrong with that statement. The main one being that Judaism originated in the Holy Land by all accounts (except yours). Although, I must admit that there are Jews with no genetic ties to the Holy Land. Nevertheless, they still have a religious bond to the place just like a lot of Christians and Muslims who have no ethnic ties to the place either. Your use of the word "Palestine" to describe the Holy Land is inaccurate. Today it is called Israel and the Palestinian Territories. There is no state of Palestine--at least not yet. There is no need for you "share" anything because Israel is already in possession of herself. Although history has much to offer, we need to pay attention to realities as they are today as well. Perhaps you consider Israel to be an intrusion into Dar al Islam, but there are some Jews who consider Islam to an intrusion into Eretz Israel. Neither side will prevail over the other so a compromise will have to be worked out. I favor the path of the security barrier as the border between Israel and the furturistic state of Palestine. What say you?
First of all to be perfectly clear on where we are going we must see where we have been. Do you know where the Jewish people have been? Secondly we must analyze what it is that we as a people want of the future. Saying Shalom over and over again is not a good enough vision. it is nevertheless only a dream and may have no basis in reality. Thirdly you must ask what does the enemy want and how far will he go to attain his goal. Repeating a mantra is not the answer for you must augment it with actions and sober reflections on the past. A dream only lasts a infitisimal period of time. A mistake lasts forever.
Jeff, Dismissing the law because you say it is non-binding and unforcible is a grave mistake. Israel's violations can be used by the Security Council to call for sanctions and isolate Israel from world markets and organizations. Thus it pays to be a law abiding nation. You say , the divestments and boycotts are not having an effect but I think you looking at the short time gains instead of the long time gains. Avoid investing in Israel can never be good for business. And as the list grows weekly when there is little or no movement from Israel...that list will eventually speak loudly. Dutch
you are right about the past. But lets focus on the future. Kfir
Let me explain to you THE WHOLE PICTURE OF THE RELIGIOUS MATTER. 1. GOD (the GOD OF THE BIBLE)created all the races of the earth from ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN. 2. This man (ADAM) and this woman (EVE) sinned (disobeyed) against GOD. Sin entered into whole mankind. 3. In the time of NOAH, all people were perverted, and GOD brought THE DELUGE. All people died, safe NOAH, his 3 sons, his wife and his 3 dauther-in-law (Gn.6:1-22). 4. From this 3 sons of NOAH, GOD populated the earth again (Gn.9:1) 5. But THE SIN WAS STILL on the whole mankind, and the man begin to degenerate again. 6. And GOD CHOSE A PEOPLE TO BLESS OTHER PEOPLES, for all peoples of the earth could know THE ONLY, HOLY AND MIGHTY GOD OF THE UNIVERSE. 7. GOD CHOSE ABRAHAM (Gn.12:1-3), and from him GOD BROUGH OUT HIS PEOPLE. THIS PEOPLE WAS ISRAEL. 8. GOD GAVE TO ABRAHAN AND HIS SEED (ISRAEL) the land of CANAAN because of the curse over his father CAM (Gn.9: 20-27). 9. THROUGHT ISRAEL GOD BLESSED US, BY GIVING US HIS WORD AND HIS MESSIAH. 10. THE ROLE OF THE MESSIAH WAS TO REDEEM THE MANKIND. He would be SACRIFIED for the sin of HIS PEOPLE ISRAEL and for the sin OF WHOLE MANKIND. 11. Now, IF YOU WANT TO KNOW GOD AND BE SAVED FROM SIN (the sin of ADAN), READ THE BIBLE AND PUT YOUR FAITH ON THE MESSIAH 12.DO NOT CURSE ISRAEL AND JEWS, because GOD WILL CURSE YOU, He said it clear to ABRAHAM: "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" (Gn.12:3). 13. ISLAM was created by men, the TRUTH OF THE BIBLE COME FROM GOD ITSELF. The BIBLE contains historical datas THAT CAN NOT BE DENIED. 14. BIBLE has datas about personalities like FARAOH, MOSES, DAVID, SALOMON, NEBUCHADNESER, DARIO, CIRO, JESUS (THE MESSIAH), etc. Places, name of cities, names of rivers, names of tribes, names of peoples, etc. that its existence can not be denied. 15. BE HUMBLE AND ACCEPT ISRAEL AS THE PEOPLE OF GOD, AND JESUS AS THE MESSIAH OF GOD, and you will be BLESSED BY GOD.
I am not a supporter of the concept of settlements and have no doubt that some will need to be dismantled if the Palestinians ever regain their sanity and decide to follow the path to peace as outlined by international agreements. However, I can't help but reflect that Mr. Levy's attitude to "settlers" is not dissimilar to that of the Cronulla surfies and their neo-Nazi urgers in Sydney Australia who decided that the best way of dealing with some troublesome youths of Lebanese origin in their area was to attack anyone who had a Middle Eastern appearance. His attitude to the religious Zionists and to the settlers evokes the same brand of racist philosphy.
The Etzion Bloc, or Gush Etzion as it is called in Hebrew, is located on the main road from the south to Jerusalem, northwest of Hebron. The Etzion bloc was settled and resettled three times, on land purchased by the Jews, beginning in 1927. Each time, residents were forced to abandon their homes in the face of Arab violence. The final saga of the Etzion bloc included two separate massacres and a prolonged and stubborn defense against hopeless odds. The bloc was finally overrun by soldiers of the British armed and officered Jordan Legion, who were responsible for the final massacre of surrendered defenders, a war crime. The first settlement in this area was called Migdal Eder, built on land purchased from local Arabs by the Zichron David Company. It was founded in 1927. The pioneers included orthodox Yemenite Jews. During the Arab riots of 1929, Migdal Eder settlers were evacuated to the Russian Orthodox monastery and thence to the Arab village of Beit Umar, from which they were evacuated to Jerusalem by British mandate police. The British made no attempt to guard the settlement or safeguard property, and it was completely destroyed. Additional lands were purchased by the El Hahar Company, which founded a kibbutz called Kfar Etzion in 1934. Like Migdal Edder, Kfar Etzion was abandoned during the Arab violence of 1936-1939 and destroyed by the Palestinian Arabs. A third settlement attempt was made beginning in 1942 under the auspices of the Jewish National Fund (Keren Kayemet). Kfar Etzion was re-founded in the Spring of 1943. In October 1945, a second kibbutz, Massuot Yitzchak, was added. Its members were Holocaust survivors from Eastern and Central Europe. A third Kibbutz, Ein Tzurim, was founded in 1946 by Israeli members of the Bnei Akiva religious Zionist movement. All three kibbutzim belonged to the religious Zionist movement, but in February 1947, a fourth kibbutz, Revadim, was established by the Marxist Hashomer Hatzair Youth Movement. UN General Assembly Resolution 181 of November 29, 1947 divided the land between Arab and Jewish states. Gush Etzion, like many other Jewish communities, was in the Arab sector. Arabs rejected the resolution. The leader of the Palestinian community was Haj Amin El-Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who had previously instigated a pro-Nazi coup in Iraq and later organized SS units for the Nazis in Yugoslavia. The Arab league set up "salvation" army, with the declared goal of liberating Palestine and "ridding that country of its Jews." The Arabs of Palestine responded to the partition resolution with riots, massacres and a blockade of Jerusalem and outlying Jewish settlement areas, including Gush Etzion. Husseini and the Arab Higher Committee started their own armed group (al-futtuwah), led chiefly by Husseini's cousin, Abdul Khadr El-Husseini, an able soldier who was killed in April 1948. Despite the military impossibility of defending isolated Jewish villages and kibbutzim like Gush Etzion, David Ben-Gurion decided that no area would be evacuated without a fight, as evacuation would demoralize the Jewish community. This decision was in retrospect seen as a mistake, because the Haganah and Palmach underground "armies" did not have the capability of defending these areas. The British, still in Palestine, looked on and did virtually nothing as the sides clashed. Gush Etzion had strategic significance. It was located on the road used by the Arab irregulars and the Transjordanian Legion to transport weapons and supplies to Jerusalem. The Palmach sent Danny Mas with a platoon of reinforcements to supervise fortifications and defense. The total population of the four kibbutzim in late 1947 was approximately 480:
of course the most active people are going to receive the most attention, teh same way american jews receive disproportionate attention. That doesn't mean america is biased towards everyone accept jews. Also, he says settlers cause problems of occupation, but it was the regular citizen who wanted to start the settlements and its only after this wave of palestinian terror that we are suffering. It is not the settlers fault we are suffering it is the fault of the palestinian terrorists. I am so disgusted by these ultra-leftist israelis who blame only themselves and let our enemies get away with crimes against humanity and the Jewish State. And does he really think that if we were to leave all the territories, it would be an end to all bloodshed - look at Gaza Gideon Levy, maybe you'll learn something.
Johanes, Thanks for your post to Jeff. Great quotes too! Keep up the good work! Happy New Year! Dutch
"You did say they didn`t just decide one day to up and go to settle in the Land you call wasn`t ours.Of course it was.Perhaps way back in history but still OURS! Be that as it may the settlers presence was a good buffer for Israel proper and look what is happening now with the proliferation of weapons,daily kassam attacks which prior to the disengagement did not occur.Additionally the the Palestinians benefitted greatly with jobs procurement. Look at them now,and what do you see? Chaos and unemployment,disenchantment with their leaders for lack of jobs and thus constant terror" S. God is no more into real eastate than the man on the moon. In addition, people cannot reclaim the land they once occupied or roamed over two thousand years ago and hunt the inhabitants who have occupied that land since. But indeed, the great inony here is that you want Jews to have a right of return after being away for over two thousand years and refuse to allow the Palestinian refugees to return to their land and homes they were forced out of in 1948 by Jewish gangs. What a double standard! Then you claim Jews made Gaza bloom which maybe was the case. But who paid the high cost for this? It wasn't the pioneer settlers who occupied 35% of the land and depleted the water supply of Gaza but the 1.3 million Palestinian who were forced to endure the remaining 65% and who were rationed on their water to accommodate the ferocious appetite of the thoughtless settlers and the Zionists Enterprise that kept them propped up. Now you say the settlers acted as a buffer for Qassam rockets which maybe the case. But the Qassam rockets are nothing compared to the 21st weaponry the Israeli Army and Shin Bet Security Services used in the Palestinian territtories to murder other innocent civilians. So let's keep things in proper perspective here and stop exaggerating the danger of Qassam rockets compared to the danger to Israeli 21st technology. Lastly, you point to the chaos and unemployment inside Gaza now. Did you know Israeli officials witheld work permits to over 5,000 Gazans in the last 3-4 months as a result of the Qassam rockets? Yet they know unemployment is sky high and people rely on their jobs to sustain their families. How punative and cruel. I imagine Israelis would want to fire rockets into Tel Aviv if israeli officials cut off their source of livlihood too. Thus it is Israeli officials who are fanning the fires inside Palestinian camps and then they blame their victims. How shameful of them. Dutch
Number one there is no such thing as a palestinian-THEY ARE JORDANIAN,EGYPTIAN,SYRIAN, CITIZENS- told by their goverments to sit in the camps, and wait for liberation. They are the victims of ARAB GREED- The leaders of their countries wanted to create sympathy for these refuges-BUT IF THEY HAD NOT ATTACKED ISRAEL-this issue would not even exist. Then theres the plain and simple fact that Israel invited its arab population TO STAY IN ITS DECLARATION OF INDEPENDANCE- ITTs the arab leaders who encouraged the arabs to leave. I also dont hear you comment on the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries, the banning of Jews from the Old city while under Arab control ( A CITY NOW OPEN TO ALL RELIGIONS-UNDER JEWISH CONTROL)- OR- how you explain Arab Masacares of Jews even before ISRAEL EXISTED - REMEMBET CHEVRON-THAT WAS WAY BEFORE THE BIRTH OPF ISRSAEL
On Friday, August 23, 1929, that tranquility was lost. Arab youths started throwing rocks at the yeshiva students. That afternoon, one student, Shmuel Rosenholtz, went to the yeshiva alone. Arab rioters later broke in and killed him, and that was only the beginning. Friday night, Rabbi Ya?acov Slonim?s son invited any fearful Jews to stay in his house. The rabbi was highly regarded in the community, and he had a gun. Many Jews took him up on this offer, and many Jews were eventually murdered there. As early as 8:00 a.m. on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, Arabs began to gather en masse. They came in mobs, armed with clubs, knives and axes. While the women and children threw stones, the men ransacked Jewish houses and destroyed Jewish property. With only a single police officer in Hebron, the Arabs entered Jewish courtyards with no opposition. Rabbi Slonim, who had tried to shelter the Jewish population, was approached by the rioters and offered a deal. If all the Ashkenazi yeshiva students were given over to the Arabs, the rioters would spare the lives of the Sephardi community. Rabbi Slonim refused to turn over the students and was killed on the spot. In the end, 12 Sephardi Jews and 55 Ashkenazi Jews were murdered.
Ahmadinejad said how muslims look at it.Some don't like it. I agree with you, Jews don't have any rights in Palestine. However Gideon Levy is beginning to understand, what others don't. It takes time, with Allah help.
Again, I am not for destroying decent people's property or anything. Let's suppose that a tree was uprooted and that the owner was a decent person and that the person who uprooted the tree was an Israeli. I would be sorry for the owner of the tree. I would also think that the Israeli was fed up with terrorism and "Pals" supporting it.
It is written in the WORD of G-D that the G-D of Abraham , Isaac , Jacob and Israel's( the creator of the universe ) NAME and his Presence would be at the Temple Mount site forever . The Jewish people and Israel hold the Land Deeds to the Temple Mount King David purchased the title deeds from Arunah the Jebusite . This site is also the site Abraham's faith was tested in the offering up of Isaac . From these facts we can see that : Islam has stolen Israel's property and should immediately return it - at the same time removing the structures dedicated to the worship of the creation ( the moon god ) in stead of the creator of the heavens and the earth . G-D is a Jealous G-D and the worship of the moon - is an AMOMINATION to him - made even worse on the site where G-D's NAME and PRESENCE are . It is written in the prophets that there will be a great earthquake and the temple mount area will be lifted up high above the surrounding land . In the process , if not before , the two mosques on the site will be destroyed . The delay , so far , is because of G-D's mercy , grace and hessed for the billion muslims who are captive to the spirit of Islam . He is waiting for muslims to turn to him with all their heart , soul , strength and might . Ezekial chapter 38 will prove to muslims who the G-D of the universe is .
Gideon Levy believes that the Jewish People are second class citizens. After reading Gideon Levy?s editorial titled ?They won't forget and won't forgive?? http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/664555.html I looked for Mr Levy?s name on the Anti Jewish, Anti American publication called Aljazeera. The reason I looked there was because I thought he would be their Chief Editor. It is so very clear an apparent that Gideon Levy believes that Israel and the Jewish People are a sub class nation and people. He states ?Perhaps the real historic mistake was the fact that we settled in a land that did not belong to us, while causing horrible injustice to neighbors and imposing an insufferable burden on the entire society?. Gideon believes that Israel, unlike other sovereign nations has no right to defend itself and has no right to realizing pragmatic national interests as many other nations have. He, as so many other Jew Haters have done, place blame upon Israel and the Jewish People saying that Israel causes a horrible injustice to its neighbors. In other words Gideon does not believe Israel has even the right to exist! Gideon also does a great job of pleasing all the World Wide Jew haters when he jumps on the Anti Zionism band wagon. According to Gideon, ?If there is a place for guilt, it is in religious Zionism?. So every other nation on this planet can realize their ?Manifest Destiny? but not Israel. Infact Israel is stimatized through out the world, with the help of anti Jewish propagandists like Gideon, by equating Zionism with evil overtones. Yet during the Mexican American War the United States felt no guilt and had every rightful intent to help the Anglo Settlers in the Texas territory achieve statehood by Annexation. The eastward spread of Russia after the 16th century and the westward spread of the United States did not instigate an ?historical guilt or any world wide demonization as Israel has to endure now. Gideon as well as other Jew haters, not Israel, is to blame for the world looking at Israel as an Illegitimate Nation, when in fact no other nation in the world has more historical and moral precedence and legitimacy to realize its true boundaries than does Israel. If this attitude of Guilt and Non Legitimacy prevails within Israel then sad to say but Israel will no longer exist as a nation and anti Jewish propagandists like Gideon will have their day. Unless Israel makes a clear and definitive stand by working towards annexation of Gaza and the West Bank, Israel will not have the respect of other legitimate nations. Israel must quit acting like a guilty child and grow up, as the United States did during the James Polk and Zachary Taylor administraions. Annexation of the West Bank and Gaza along with removal of all the current palestinian occupiers is what the Israeli national policy should be. Not retreat and defeat! And from a non Jewish American?s point of view I shall leave all of the readers this famous statement. ?Remember the Alamo! ? Roger Vanderbilt Walnut Creek, CA
Ok, obviously you didnt read and understand my previous post. Yes I condemn the murder of Israeli civilians by the Palestinian terrorist groups. Just to clear the formalities up...now let me repaste my post for you.. Please respond, I'm kinda curious as to what a real response by you would be... You seem to be exhibiting a psychological defense mechansim, when confronted on the settler issue, you totally avoid the issue of the settlers` unlawfullness and jump immediately to condemning "Pals" and their supporters. Can you just give us at LEAST ONE POST on your reaction to what the SETTLERS are doing, and please dont refer to Arabs and Palestinians as being terrorists. Just give us a solid honest post about the settlers. Show your intelligence. FREE PALESTINE!!!!!!!
On 11 October 1961 Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion declared in the Israeli Knesset: 'The Arabs' exit from Palestine...began immediately after the UN resolution, from the areas earmarked for the Jewish state. And we have explicit documents testifying that they left Palestine following instructions by the Arab leaders, with the Mufti at their head, under the assumption that the invasion of the Arab armies at the expiration of the Mandate will destroy the Jewish state and push all the Jews into the sea, dead or alive'.
Rustam, the eviction from Hebron will not be an eviction of the innocent. They are criminal pogromists. They have been persecuting their Arab neighbors for many years. You probably read Haaretz descriptions of what is going on there. Not only a well described pogrom in an Arab's house, but chasing the Arabs away from the entire souk area and moving there instead. Having their children walk in fear, etc. The eviction should have been done years ago. If their eviction now helps demonstrate that the state of Israel is a democracy that does not accept any king's rule, messiah or other, over itself, that would be a wonderful bonus. I am not calling for the messianists to be tortured into renouncing their messianic beliefs. But the State of Israel should demonstrate to them that Israel is not waiting, and is not interested, in any messiah. And this happens to be a fact. If you are interested in a messianic state, go pray for his coming. Don't commit crimes against the Arabs in order to hasten his/her coming.
Zeev, the example of switzerland has been tried in the Middle East. Haven't you heard of the experiment done by the French colonialists? Its know the as "The Switzerlandisation of Lebanon". Lebanon is your country in the Middle East!. In short, no thank you!! In Switzerland you have people believing in the same God by in large. In Israel Palestine you don't have that!! A bi-national state in Israel/Palestine would be a catastrophe!! Lebanon is only an example...gang would take the streets and kill one another in the name of revenge! Your thinking is very wishful...but the fact is, there are much nicer places in this world were Jew's could live as a minority!
Gideon - you remind me of another writer- a gentelman who also always took a anti-dati slant. THAT IS UNTILL REALITY STRUCK HIM. THEN HE WROTE HIS RATHER FAMOUS APOLOGY - THE ARTICLE ENTITLED THE KIPA SRUGA. YOU SEEM TO FORGET- over 70% of those religous fanatics that entire Tzahal volunteer for COMBAT units- I beleave the figure is UNDER 30% for the non dati community. And how did these relifgous zealots end up in these areas to begin with-they responded to the states plea to settle these lands. All I can say is THANK G-D FOR THE RELIGOUS ZIONISTS-THEY SEEM TO BE THE ONLY ONES THAT REMEMBER ISRAEL IS A JEWISH STATE-SOMETHING WE NEED NOT APOLOGIZE FOR.
Israel has the 2nd strongest army in the world, the biggest brother thinkable and the most protected country among all. Who suicidle you and your irani joker must be to call for war, hohoho?!
The Israeli government to my chegrin has just give you Gaza. A sliver of land full of sewer holes just bristling with Rats both of the 2 legged and 4 legged varieties. You have aided and abetted the nazis and got the wrong impression that you would be able to finish the job. We have come back and we will regain what is rightfully ours.In the meantime I would advise that you hide with these rats before the Israeli people wake up to the nature of the Arabs and takes real preventive defensive and offensive action to show you where your place is. Do not wake the sleeping Lion lest you be eaten. AM ISRAEL HI FREE PALESTINE FROM THE HASHEMITES.
To get hold of illegal, dangerous, antisemitic and islam-fashistic webpages: american and european secret services more and more often use the helping search-keyword "Gideon Levy" to find a lot. (Google report 2005)
Ben Gurion, On the contrary I get it just too well. You don't believe in the Messiah. Therefore, you believe that you should impose your belief on other Jews that do believe in the Messiah by force through evicting them from Hebron or whatever else you come up with, since your belief is superior to theirs. This is exactly what troubles me with what has become of liberal values. There is nothing wrong with believing in the coming of the Messiah nor does it in any way interfere with ones ability to be a good citizen, a kind person and one who loves all humanity. If anything the reverse is true. (The ratings of Comical Khalid and other anti-Semites on this site excluded.) Demonizing the settlers including the ones in Hebron will not advance the cause of peace. A true two state solution with peaceful coexistence must also accommodate those Jews who wish to live in a Palestinian state as full citizens or resident aliens. The Arab insistence on not having any Jews in their state is a symptom of a far deeper problem within the Islamic world which is ultimately at the root of the conflict.
Are you guys Conjoined Triplets. You seem to pop up at the same time and if one is not available the other answers. The New Triumvirate of Jew bashers and Jewish religion Bashers? Are ya All related or jusr plain Arab Symphatizers or just plain Arabs.
A Jewish scribe writing a Torah scroll on parchment has to immerse himself in a Mikva (ritual bath) BEFORE he writes God's name. What the scribes do then, is to write down the text, skipping the many places where God's name appears but leaving empty space instead. Early the next morning they take their ritual bath, then copy many times God's name in the skipped places. Here is the inventive human spirit at its best. P.S. Do you think the faker is that Obsessive blue dog? There are some characteristics that would suggest that. If he doesn't stop promptly, I will speak to Haaretz.
Then you say that when one converts to Islam becomes a fanatic, don't you. I had thought of something like that. Nobody of any other religion is committing the atrocities the Muslims are in the name of their religion. Happy New Year.
You must realize that this is a war of annihilation. You want to kill us and the Leftists such as Ben Gurion and his AntiSemitic supporters wants to coddle you and negotiate a temporary reprieve by appeasing you with what you consider crumps. You have declared war on the Jews in 1948 and the Arab world still considers itself at war with Israel. It is about time that Israel woke up and dealt you a death blow from which you will not recover and will have to sue for peace. Terms of the peace should be that should you threaten again you will be dealt a further heavy blow. If I give you a concusion one time you would be vary of fighting me again. That is what Israel should do. AM ISAREL HI FREE PALESTINE FROM HASHEMITE RULE.
I believe that Khalid or Ben Gurion is on a typical Leftist disinformation kick and his behind all those fake posters.Khalid however is not that bright to pull that off Ben Gurion is neither but he certainly is devious enough. Notice how he changed the subject of discussion, since he was not able to create a loud diversion, and started talking about the Messianics. After all the hullabaloo I agree with P.E Huberman that in the long run it makes no difference what the world thinks and we as proud Jews must continue with the traditions that kept us alive and a Nation for thousands of years.
"So what will be considered holy, YHWH or YHVH? Maybe I should use both." - Ben Gurion Why not? After all, our Bill of Rights reads "purfuit, of happineff". But be sure to wash your hands after typing them. "P.S. I also did not write posts 94 and 98." - BG I have noted several points by which I can identify the Erzatz Ben Gurion. These do not involve content or context. I shall not note them here as others may have noticed them, and I would not wish to point them out to the faker.
Mr Levy's attempt to deflect the blame on hte crimes committed against Palestine is but a clever attempt to absolve all Jews of their war crimes. There is no historic claim of Jews to any of Palestine, and therefore we have no desire to share it with you. Thus Jews living on both sides of the 'green line' are equally guilty. Also guilty are the jews who give money in the 'blue boxes' who support this alien intrusion into Dar al Islam. Deflecting your guit is not justice. Pack you bags and go back to Belarus and Lodz. Stop complaining about Ahmadinejad and take his advice-he is a man of peace who has finally called your holocaust bluff
Franzen on the Gaza evacuation: Johanes Franzen, Stockholm: "Drag them out by their curlies and prosecute those that break the law." He is nothing more than an old fashioned Jew- hater disguised as someone seeking Palestinian rights. Anything he says should be disregarded.
I am no muslim but I was told that the Jewish prophets(not Adam and Eve) are called by the muslims (pre)muslims because they talked to G-d. but only the prophets(ONLY the prophets) including Jesus of course because he is after Mohammed the most important prophet. When I first read that Jesus was a Muslim on a website where Jews converted to Islam I thought-typically convert(they often get fanatic or much more religious than the usual ones)-completely lost their mind.Now I know what it is. No, of course not. Happy New Year
B'resheet ( Genesis ) 15 : 1-21 18-21 ..." In that same day the L-RD made a covenant with A'bram , saying , Unto your seed have I given this land , from the river of E'ygpt unto the great river , the river eu-phra'tes : The Ken'ites , and the Ken'iz-zites , and the Reph'a-ims , and the Am'or-ites , and the Ca'naan-ites , and the Jeb'u-sites . This covenant was passed onto I'saac , J'acob and Israel . ( not Ishma-el ) who was promised 12 kingdoms and wealth , Note: they have received their inheritance with lands and oil yet are greedily coveting after Israel's inheritance also - to their shame . Khalid's profession that he and the pa's are descendants of the ca'naan-ites blows his claim out of the water and proves the lie of Islam ..
You are the voice of peace,keep it up.
Well, PE, you have to be congratulated for your honesty. You must be hoping that israeli military superiority lasts forever. That's a long time.
Some one said that the settlements were legal because God gave the land to the jewish people.This statment is wrong because of the following reasons: First, Muslims and christians also make the same claim that God gave them the land, so who God gave to really. The only one who can answer is not me or you. it is God. Second, If israel exists by the virtue of a promise given by God. God gave the land to the religous(jews)who follwed Him only. What about the others citizens of israel jewish and none jewish who have a different religion or not religous. You are pretending they are not israelis because they are not included in the promise. Third, there are more jews in the USA and Canada than in Israel. If your logic is true, then the natives of America can claim their land and dispose all jewish and European populations. Arabs can claim spain because they have been there for 700 hundred years. This logic is wrong. Everybody has to be dispossed to their original places who knows where. Fourth, there are jewish people who say it is a sin to live in israel or create a state for jewish people because they are supposed to be dispersed according to the will of God. Which religous version is true. Please do not pick and choose what suits your colonial purposes.
Dutch the expert on Judaic-Christian doctrine tries to toy with the word of God. Perhaps Dutch thinks that the Lord is an anti-Semite like herself? It must be all that PA perverted revisionist history she's been fed with and fattened up on. Go back to growing tulips and wearing clogs and stop tormenting the chosen people.
Israel the Jewish homeland , whose capital is Jerusalem , exists because the WORD of G-D promised this land as an everlasting , unconditional , covenant . Israel is only occupying a fraction of the land promised ( from the river euphrates in the north and Eygpt in the south )The land is sacred as G-D calls it his land . Islam proclaims to have replaced the TANAKH with muhammed's writings which make up the Koran . The existance of Israel as the state of the jewish people , in fulfillment of the WORD of G-D , proves beyond a shadow of doubt the TANAKH is the TRUTH and that the Koran is a lie and muhammed is a false prophet .
Howdy Cohen Brother; Rulings by the ICJ are non-binding and unenforceable. The IVth Geneva Convention applies to territory seized from sovereign states (like the Golan Heights), but it does not apply to "disputed" or "contested" territory as is the case in the West Bank. Since the Palestinians never accepted statehood (even though it was offered several times), their legal status is that of rebels during a civil war. There is no prohibition of population transfers in this case because nobody knows who the land belongs to until after a mutual agreement between the belligerent parties can be worked out (in accordance with the provisions of UNSCR 242).
We must remind ourselves who we are and that Zionism is alive and kicking even though some would like to think it is not. I am proud to be Israeli and a Zionist and I don't care if the Arabs like it or not.
Funny that Gideon Levy never finds a word about the ongoing anarchy and lawlessness in Gaza now that the Jews are gone. And certainly he never lashes out at Arab MK's who officially side with Israel's enemies and who are no better than Ahmadinejad. But of course it is always easy to blame the 'settlers'. Writings like this one are pure incitement and calls for hate that only Haaretz can publish! And Haaretz is an Israeli newspaper?
I have to say, that I am an avid reader of Haaretz, this is because Haaretz manages to bring a truthful, and most of the time unbiased view of what is happening within Israel proper,and Palestine. The writers of Haaretz (Amira Haas,etc..) Are couragous because they, unlike other Journalist speak the truth, and declare the occupation for what it is, evil. Israel is a democratic country, yet these settlers scoff at Israel, and only claim to be part of it when it is conveniant to them. Haaretz, I am so glad that the Israeli people, the world in general, has you to report some form of truth!
Hello Dear brother How I agree with you! I do not live in the Country of My Fathers for a reason.My whole family are there and have been for generations. I am so proud what my people have achieved and proud of our IDF,our Security Services and everything. We do not have to apologize for anything absolutely right! They don't like it= THOUGH! They can rot in their hellish holes if they so wish,it is up to them and until they change their hateful mentality they will remain just where they are. S p/s Ha'aretz it is not April fool's day, it is January 1st 2006
Islam and other religions represent Rebellion against G-D and his WORD .( The G-D of Abraham , Isaac , Jacob and Israel ) As rebellion began with the sin of Adam and Eve in the garden Islam is the fruit of this rebellion . As far as the settlers are concerned they are obeying G-D'S command to settle on the land G-D gave Israel and the Jewish people as an everlasting , unconditional , COVENANT . The strangers will prosper as long as they live in peace and under Israel's Sovereignty . The pa and Islam are occupying Israel's land inheritance and have placed themselves on a collision course with G-D the creator of the Universe . IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING G-D .
Howdy Johanes; UNSCR 465: not passed under Chapter 7 of the UN Charter and, therefore, non-binding and unenforceable. UNSCR 904: not passed under Chapter 7 of the UN Charter and, therefore, non-binding and unenforceable. ICJ Rulings: non-binding and unenforceable. IV Geneva Convention: applies to "occupied" lands, i.e., territory seized from sovereign nations. It does not apply to "disputed" or "contested" territory such as the Palestinian Territories which have not been part of a sovereign country since the British left in 1948. You can thank your Palestinian pals for that dumb move. And who is going enforce your interpretation of international law? A coalition of Sweden, Iran, and North Korea perhaps? Have nice time trying to invade Israel.
Switzerland changes its president every year. The new President has to present the congratulation for the new year in the television. You can read his speech in French in: http://www.uvek.admin.ch/dokumentation/00476/00477/00883/index.html?lang=fr He insisted on the cohesion of the country despite its different minorities, and on equality for all. This is the secret of internal peace and prosperity in Switzerland: cohesion through equality for all. This is what is missing in Palestine/Israel and the reason of the conflit which causes so much sufferings on both sides. Palestine/Israel will never have peace without equality for all, regardless of their religionincluding the return of the Palestinian refugess. A state based on a dominant religion cannot produce peace, but conflits and misery. for this reason a "Jewish state" is not only a nonsense, but also a dangerous nonsense. PEACE WILL BE THE FRUIT OF JUSTICE (Isaiah 32;17).
Mark, I have observed that the Fake One, using my name, offers only opinions and betrays no real knowledge of any subject other than the ranting against the Left you would hear on these forums. Maybe this will enable me to ultimately identify the ignoramus. (I have some suspects in mind.) But this ignorance is also problematic. The way a religious Jew who has seen a Torah text in his life, would spell God's name is probably YHVH. The third letter stands for the Hebrew Vav, and people unexposed to scholarly conventions will use this transliteration. The scholarly convention is to use W for "vav", as it is believed that the letter was pronounced as 'waw' in ancient times. You still have this in Arabic. So what will be considered holy, YHWH or YHVH? Maybe I should use both. P.S. I also did not write posts 94 and 98.
I would like to ask to Gideon Levy: Why you don't go to territories, to the people you love ? Why don't You go far from the people you hate: the jews?
After considerable research I have come to the shocking conclusion that Khalid is a Mossad agent and a Jewish settler. The full proof will take more than the word limits allowed by Ha?aretz.; however, I?m listing a few points for the laymen who are not as familiar with the workings of the Mossad and those devious Jews. 1- Khalid uses many aliases some of which actually require someone with a primary school education to discover. Only the Mossad has the experience and training to concoct so many aliases. 2- Khalid?s lies are so sophisticated and devious that they are well beyond the capability of Arabs. Surely only Jews are capable of creating such lies as hundred of thousands of Palestinians killed by Israel when we all know that the. Palestinians killed by Jews in the past hundred years of conflict number less that 7,000. 3- Khalid changes history and reshapes it as though it is made from clay. Every Muslim knows that Jews are the ones who changed their Torah and therefore have experience in changing books and facts. 4- Khalid is very knowledgeable about the Talmud and Judaism and seems to have a personal knowledge of the thinking of Jewish Rabbis. Since everyone knows that Talmud is a secretive and diabolical text that Jews take many years to teach their children, Khalid must be the son of a Jewish rabbi. 5- Last but not least whenever we want to uncover a crime we have to see who is going to benefit from it. Since Khalid?s outrageous lies make the Arabs look bad then he must be a Jewish settler in Hebron.
Have you ever condemned the murder of Israelis by the "Pals"? [traerá]
We are getting what we deserve MEOW~~. Israel is a stable country, we makes lots of business, etc. Should I contine? Lets see what the Arabs have done lately. Actually, you can see all over the news. It really does not look good. So you are right, we are all getting what we deserve.
Howdy S; There is someone on this board who is posting under other people's names. I wish I knew what his name was, but I think that it would be censored by Haaretz.
In an infantile attempt to portray Jews as Nazis ,in gross violation of Haaretz`s talkback guidlines this Jew hater invents this term..how transparent,how infantile,how wrong...
Hello shira Someone is playing games with us.I is certainly not me who wrote that post. They did it yesterday as well.I wonder what is going on. I assure you I am with OUR COUNTRY AND MY PEOPLE ALL THE WAY.All my family live in Israel and have done for generations.What can I tell you! Now,if you read Ben G's post complaining about the same problem and he is a "Lefty" and he says some "Right fellow" has ben using his name! Curiouser and curiouser. S
Howdy S; The devil is in the details. The Gaza Strip is a done deal. Its border is defined by the Israeli-Egyptian Territorial Exchange Agreement of 1950 and is internationally recognized. Note: Mahmoud Abbas did try to claim a 2 Km. by 9 Km. chunk of land at the northern end of the Gaza Strip because it was included in the Armistice Line of 1948 and agreed to by the Rhoads Accords of 1949 until he was politely informed that if he wanted to go back to the 1949 ceasefire line, then the Gaza Strip would lose a larger chunk of territory in its southeast corner including Gaza International Airport. I haven't heard of a peep out of him since. The West Bank is different matter because the border has never been defined. The Green Line was just an armistice line and was never recognized as an international border. If one tries to make the Green Line the border, then the Western Wall will fall under Palestinian sovereignty and Israel will never agree to that. Since Israel and the PA can't come to an agreement as to where the border is, Israel is unilaterally defining it with the security barrier. The futuristic state of Palestine will wind up with 92% of the West Bank and Israel will be left with 8% of it including the large settlement blocks which lie on the Israeli side of the fence and East Jerusalem. First get the security barrier completed (which will take another two years), then withdraw all settlers and IDF personnel from the Palestinian side, nail the gates shut, throw the keys of statehood over the fence to the PA, and let chaos reign on the Palestinian side of the fence. The Palestinians will be "unoccupied" with no more excuses left. They will be forced to sink or swim on their own although the international community is willing to help, but the PA has got to get the Palestinian militants under control first. Nobody is willing to invest a dime in the Palestinian Territories until after the shooting stops.
"The best way to delay the coming of the Messiah is to sow discord and senseless hatred among the Jews. This is what the article and your comments do." - Rustam Rustam, there is NO SUCH THING as a Messiah. (Please read again R. Hillel's statement in post #86.) Therefore, I am delaying nobody by sowing discord nor, alternatively, hastening anybody by working on unity. If I want to prove quickly to the deluded messianists that their belief is false, I should do it in the quickest and easiest manner. Not wait forever until all Jews behave like saints (the Lubavitchers are working on it), but kick out the Hebron settlers quickly, if that's what it takes. Your 2 later points, Rustam, are not relevant to the present topic. I can, and have, defended my positions on Syria and Lebanon. My own personality is quite consistent. But the integrity of my own personality is not the issue here. I am not the issue, and I don't want to confuse the readers today by embarking on addditional, and unrelated, topics. When Syria and Lebanon come up again, I will restate my position. See if it is illogical or inhumane.
Hello Karen To put you in the picture on what you sow on the media during the disengagement: I don't want to respond comprehensively because I just came to read the posts and yours was the first one I wanted to respond.I will go back and read it properly soon. About the accusations that have been flying arround:I have it on good authority(my son who is an Israeli with no connection to the settlers(poor things)told me he was offended in the way the removal of the was conducted.Not by the soldiers,but the hierarchy when he sow it in the news. His words were: Cruel way to dispose of them. He pointed out to me the ones that did those unacceptable deeds "were not" members of the settlers,but came into the area specifically to cause trouble and some did. Remember that in the beginning a lot of rumours went arround that they threw acid at the soldiers.NOT SO! Perhaps it was as you say caustic soda? This too has not been proven. We musn't rely on hearsay and judge the affair accordingly. S
Blah, Blah, Blah.... Who gives a ..... about the UNSCR and ICJ rulings. Johanes Franzen, if you are in dire need of helping the Arabs (aka Palestinians) then why don't ask your government to them a home in your country. Maybe you can give them your home. That would be a start. If not, then keep your anti-semetic comments to yourself. Stop talking your nonsense all the time.
Sorry, I was taking you seriously, and you are obviously a satirist. Clearly you are presenting extreme views in your inimitable way to show their poverty. But others may continue to treat you as legitimate. Why not distinguish youself from the "real" Ben Gurion in some way that is more readily apparent to the confused reader here?
I am proud to be an Israeli. Proud and blessed to live in my land, in my own country where my culture and identity is the norm not the exception. I do not apoligize for the victories we Israelis have won and i do not care what the world thinks of me, my country and my countrymen. I offer no apoligies for living. And I care nothing of the fate of those fools who said no to partition, fought against my brothers, father and grandfather and lost. Let them rot in their permanent refugee camps, in their own filth. I do not care.
I hope that Haaretz will track the IP address of the person(s) who are posting under false identities and block them.
"These late commers endanger the Zionist enterprise." - Ben Gurion Please don't send them back to America. "There needs to be a direct challenge to the messianists." - Ben Gurion As Edmund Burke observed long ago, all that is necessary for evil to prevail, is for decent men to remain silent. "I would go ahead and evacuate Hebron. Get them to know the messiah ain`t coming any time soon, and demonstrate to them the falsehood of their beliefs." - Ben Gurion There is no way to demonstrate the 'falsehood of their beliefs' to insane people.
It's unfortunate that you keep piling up ignorant remarks upon ignorant remarks in your comments on this forum. You are not the on;y ignorant poster here, but sine you claim to be unbiased, yopur ignorance is startling. Youyr latest comments, declaring that the legallity or illegality of the settlements is yet to be determined are truly perplexing. The illegality of the settlements has been determined many years ago by the international court of justice. Under the 4th Geneva Convenstion, of whom Israel is a signator, Israel is strictly prohibited, per the rulling of the ICJ, from sending her own citizens in(settlers), or expelling any local residents(Palestinian population)from the occupied/disputed territories. Even the US State Department has concluded numerous times that in accord with the Gc, the settlements are strictly illegal. In your case, ignorance isn't a bliss at all.
listen fellah you have no fans here.no one likes you.you are unpopular.got it? except for potobac he loves you.he loves anyone who shafts the jews.
You seem to be exhibiting a psychological defense mechansim, when confronted on the settler issue, you totally avoid the issue of the settlers' unlawfullness and jump immediately to condemning "Pals" and their supporters. Can you just give us at LEAST ONE POST on your reaction to what the SETTLERS are doing, and please dont refer to Arabs and Palestinians as being terrorists. Just give us a solid honest post about the settlers. Show your intelligence. FREE PALESTINE!!!!!!!
"I guess I will need to spell this god as YHWH." - Mr. Ben Gurion All depends what vowels your thinking of. When I read #75 my first response was that you were working towards a wry parody. Then I realized your handle had been hacked. I shall be vigilant for further such postings.
the colour of cowardice and disgrace.you of all people should know it.
i agree lets send gideon levy to coventry. may he never come back to us there will be doubts hesitation and pain
could everybody stop this nonsense?
Will the Jews ever stop being apologists for G-D? G-D is not democratic!! The land is HIS land for the Jews. HE will certainly reclaim it.. ALL of it..and then some...All this talk! What an effort in futility!! So amazing that some of you think this is even negotiable!!
we have no other choice Shira, we must leave and leave now
Thank you Dutch, I have seen the light now. Halleluja amen and thank G-d.
I am a secular Israeli from Tel-Aviv, I am very different from national religious men and women, I have different political views, I supported and still support disengagement and believe in right of Palestinian people for self determination -- when the Palestinians turn into a nation out of array of private armies and clans with genocidal ideology, with policy of crimes against humanity and with no national responsibility. Gideon Levy is bewildered how did the national religious camp succeed to draw such sympathy and influence in the Israeli society, which is generally secular and ready in principle for compromize with Palestinians. I think, this is because all secular Israelis had and have personal encounters with national religious Israelis and could see that most of them are indeed very good people. They are warm, they are not cynical, unlike secular people, they are non-violent -- and I am not talking about tiny minority, but about absolute majority; they have very noble and kind in their relations with their neighbours and all people, they love children and their children are better educated and less violent, than the children of secular Israelis; the national religious folk is hard working, they have strong family values and, unlike cynical and disillusioned secular Jews, the national religious Jews have their faith, which makes them look somewhat naive, but which also makes them happier. In short, this is the healthiest, the sanest part of the society. And everybody knows it. Therefore, even when one does not agree with them, he cannot stop respecting them. I believe, that it would be wrong just reject the opinions of the national religious camp because "the general line" is different -- and this is what Gideon Levy proposes. I believe, that we must at least listen to what they say -- and then, agree or disagree.
-"The legality or illegality of the settlements cannot be known until after the border between Israel and the West Bank has been agreed to. Until then, their legal status is in limbo."- Not at all, the settlements are illegal according to UNSCRs, the 4th Geneva Convention and the ICJ ruling. UNSCR 465 -"5. Determines that all measures taken by Israel to change the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure or status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, or any part thereof, have no legal validity and that Israel's policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in those territories constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East"- UNSCR 904 -"Reaffirming its relevant resolutions, which affirmed the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 12 August 1949 to the territories occupied by Israel in June 1967, including Jerusalem, and the Israeli responsibilities thereunder"- ICJ ruling -"Settlements established by Israel in breach of international law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory"- 4th Geneva Convention The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. Article 50 -"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."- So much for your nonsense Jeff.
Ben Gurion, I have two points: 1- The best way to delay the coming of the Messiah is to sow discord and senseless hatred among the Jews. This is what the article and your comments do. To truly disprove the idea of Messiah to Messianic Jews you need to show that even when we are all kind and civil to each other and we all start to engage in acts of loving kindness every day the Messiah and the Messianic age still does not arrive. This is a much more difficult task to achieve than evicting Jews from Hebron. 2- Your ideas have to be fair and just regardless of which human beings you are addressing. You cannot be kind to Palestinians and yet suggest that the Lebanese should be placed at the mercy of the fascists in Syria that the electricity should be cut as a form of fruitless punishment upon Palestinians a few days at a time or that the narrative, aspirations and beliefs of religious Jews should be discounted in favor of the narrative and mythology of the Palestinian Arabs. No lasting peace will come from any of the above. we are all kind and civil to each other and we all start to engage in acts of loving kindness every day the Massiah still does not come. This is much more diffiult task to achieve than evicting Jews from Hebron. 2- Your ideas have to be fair and just regardless of which human beings you are addressing. You cannot be kind to Palestinians and yet suggest that the Labanese should be placed at the mercey of the fascists in Syria, that the electricity should be cut as a form of fruitless punishment upon Palestinians.
Barbara , I forgive you if you could apologize to Khalid I think that would be good too. Don't hold onto old stuff--it's new year and make that a new leaf too... Cheers! Dutch
but cannot be helped.occupational hazard.
Gideon Levy is so full of Hate speech against fellow Jews that he completely ignores the terrorists shooting from the destroyed Jewish Settlements and the terrorists blowing people up in Hadera, Netanya, Tel Aviv, etc. I guess he just loves Palestinian terrorists.
I must agree that the messianic movement is very dangerour to the health and well being of the arab population of Palestine and Benny Brillstein the real name of Ben Gurion the fake. Israel could be truly a paradise on earth if only people like Beilin, Sarid, Shulamit Aloni, Peres and Sharon would be put in jail for their transgressions against the Yemenites (kidnapping),the religious (desecrating their day of rest), Israelis (Oslo) and the PLO gangs, Hamas and Jihad and so on, and Sharon for lying and theft. The Messiah is not going to bring any of these entitlements of the Jews.As in ages past they must do it themselves. The patriots of all stripes must throw of the yoke of the Left and bring to power a Jewish government run by Jews for Jews and accountable to the Jews only. I cannot see the Messiah coming until Israel puts its house in order but that will be soon.
Khalid did say that. I have never heard that the Jewish prophets up to Jesus were called "Muslim". So you say only Muslim can talk to G-d. And do you say Adam and Eve were prophets? (!!!)
Do you seirously think we Jews should leave the territories???? wdo you even live in Israel, even the West Bank?? Because if you do not then you have no idea what you are saying. You do not live there like me. you do not see what i do every day. We can not give up these beautiful mountains and valleys.
Is there a lull in the persecution of indeginous people in the Amazon basin that you can spend so much time on this forum, promoting Kahanist ideas? No more death squad duty around Rochinha and other favelas? No more petty thives kids to murder? All that free time you have now is scary.
'I want to suggest that the State of Israel formally disown the messianic idea. The Knesset can pass a law that anyone proclaiming himself to be the messiah be put in jail (or mental hospital) for attempted insurrection and attempted usurpation of state power. The message to the messianists will be clear. We do not believe in your Meshugas.' This is a wonderful and way overdue idea. Just like the post WW2 German state formally disowned and denounced Nazism, just like the post apartheid S.African state formally disowned and denounced apartheid, the Israeli government needs to do the same with messianism. Messianic Judaism does not really accept the authority of the democratically elected government. A democracy has the right, duty and obligation to fight and uproot all the undemocratic elements within it.
Hamas only kills soldiers?!!!!!!!!!!! Where r u living, mars?? oyu should get out more.
Are you serious. Would you like the whole world to mistake me for what i am and delude me with E-Mail.Warts, pimples who is noticing. This is supposed to be a fun place and nothing to do with impurities.
"The settler and settlements are illegal and they brought Israel more harm than good" First of all the settlements in the West Bank are not illegal because it is stil in the border of Israel and Israel belongs to the Jews. G-d gave it to them himself. Second the settlers who live in places like Hebron, the Shomron, Gush Etzion and other places in the West Bank have brought nothing but good to Israel. They give up their lives for the land and live in places where they are surrounded by terrorists because they know how important Israel is and that we can not give it to the Arabs. If the settlers werent living in those places the Arabs would be surrounding Jerusalem and would throw rockets into Jerusalem or Tel-Aviv until eventually all Jews would be forced out of their homes and Israel would chas vishalom be turned into an only Arab state.
It is true that settlers will not forget and will not forgive, and so we will not forgive them and we will not forget them and one day they will have to pay a price for all of the crimes they committed against the people. Like the late Simon Wiesenthal said, that he dedicated his life so that no future murderers will ever get away with it. Settlers and all those behind them in Israel, in the US and in Europe will never get away with them. The hands of justice and international legal system will catch up with them. They cheated G-d and cheated man and they made a fool of G-d and his wisdom and sense of justice. Let them be damned for now and for ever.
we shouldn't loot kill steal cheat and torture. Just kidding Go Israelö Go!
Howdy Dutch; The Israeli settlements that lie on the Palestinian side of the security barrier were probably a mistake. They are too isolated and are not cost-effective to defend for ever. However, the settlements that lie on the Israeli side of the fence (like Ariel and Maale Adumin) are in a very good postion and can be easily defended. The legality or illegality of the settlements cannot be known until after the border between Israel and the West Bank has been agreed to. Until then, their legal status is in limbo. Contrary to your assertions, Israel's ties to and relationships with her allies and friends have been strengthened considerably since the disengagement. Tourism to Israel has increased at least two-fold this past year alone. Her economy is the fastest growing economy of any Western country. I'm afraid that your call for disvestments and boycotts against Israel isn't working.
there is no future in holding on to them, i have thought a lot about it.
The messianic idea was useful during the long exile, giving Jews hope and keeping the nation alive. It was not the only way to accomplish such goals; notice the tremendous success of Christianity, an earlier Jewish messianic movement. But considering the form that Judaism took under the guidance of the Rabbis, messianism had positive elements which outdid the negative ones. The most negative side of the messianic idea was engendering irrational thinking, passivity, and the reliance on the supernatural. Modern Zionism was a secular movement, unloading religious messianism in favor of human activity in the national redemption process. And this was tremendously successful, no thanks to the religious Jews who mostly opposed the State and contributed little to its establishment. Now come the religious Zionists. After 1967 they have revived the messianic idea, this time "helping" the messiah to come by settling the Occupied Territories, dispossessing the Arabs, destroying their property, etc. These late commers endanger the Zionist enterprise. They will turn Israel into South Africa. With the mixing of the Israeli and Arab population, there will have to be one state for all, with the dispossessed Arabs eventually becoming second class citizens. (Now they are third class non-citizens.) There needs to be a direct challenge to the messianists. Don't just rely on the trauma they sufferred in Gaza. Irrational people will find reasons to explain their setbacks away. I want to suggest that the State of Israel formally disown the messianic idea. The Knesset can pass a law that anyone proclaiming himself to be the messiah be put in jail (or mental hospital) for attempted insurrection and attempted usurpation of state power. The message to the messianists will be clear. We do not believe in your Meshugas. Another possibility would be for intellectuals to get into a discuassion with the messianic leaders and ask them: Is there any sign that you would accept that the Messiah is not coming now? For example, would you accept that if Hebron is evacuated of its settlers, that this would mean that the Messiah is not coming now? If at all doable, such as the Hebron case, I would go ahead and evacuate Hebron. Get them to know the messiah ain't coming any time soon, and demonstrate to them the falsehood of their beliefs. "Rabbi Hillel said: 'There is no messiah for Israel, for they have consumed him (his benefits) in the days of Hezekiah' (the biblical king of Judah)" - Sanhedrin 98b. P.S. Rabbi Hillel was an Amora of the 3rd century, grandson of R. Judah the Patriarch.
Well, Ben, let me assure you this: There is absolutely no reason to be afraid of God or his Angels, as they are no mass murderers nor war lords (neither is God a real estate agent and never has been, for that part). Humans, on the other hand, do commit these kind of things, so it?s always a good idea to have a watchful eye on those who pretend to speak and act in God?s name?
yesterday I wrote under DUTCH and today I used Ben Gurion. I have been having problems with drinking and maybe that has been showing up in my postings, but I will try not to be such a dishonest poster from now on. at least I will try and I'm not TULIP, really honestly I'm not. I know I sound as stupid at times but I'm not, really I'm not.
people on the right think that G-d speaks trough them and so they are always right, people on the left, are self anointed and also think that they are always right, either of them never understood realpolitics and their goal is to prove that they are right, and everybody else is wrong. MAKE THEM BOTH IRELEVANT
Like almost all issues in this world, this one, too, is not an "either ? or" thing, I think. Settlers are both: As they are not in a medical sense insane or uncapable of understanding what they are doing, they are fully responsible for their deeds ? legally as well as morally. At the same time they are ? exactly as you say - just pawns on the chess-bord of those in power in Israel. Pawns who might turn into queens some day, if they are not stopped in time. As for the people currently holding the power in Israel: Those are utterly self-hating humans who are at war with themselves. Their final goal is to destroy themselves, taking as many other people with them as possible, Jewish or not. And they will continue to persue this goal until they?ve accomplish their mission or get stopped by force from outside. Having understood that, and seeing that neither Europe nor the USA show any serious desire to put a halt to these psychopaths, it?s pretty clear that there will be no peace in the ME anytime soon, no matter what the Palestinians might or might not do. Nonetheless, happy new year to you and your beloved ones, Zeev.
You are as easy to spot as a wart on the nose of truth. Give it up you misserable person and to the real Ben Gurion, just add your personal e-mail address and if this fake does the same then he has committed a fellony and you can take actions against him through is IP-address. B.B.
Some rightwinger is faking my signature. Posting #75 is by the Fake One. In the Olive Tree forum he is denying the olive tree atrocities. Idiot, when you deny reality, you also allow holocaust deniers to peddle their theories. Interestingly, in this forum he "supports" Hamas. The Fake One struck yesterday for the first time. On the "Lie of Palestine" forum, post #673, he advised Khalid to go see some nationalistic Jewish movie, presumably very anti Arab. What are you trying to accomplish, destroy every last channel of positive communication between Israelis and Palestinians? For everyone on these forums, please look around for a low intelligence person who is not a native English speaker. Being a rightwinger is a must. This idiot might also be religious, spelling God as G-d. I guess I will need to spell this god as YHWH. Will this chase you away?
ron, you have no rights to close his mouth, we have freedom of speech, but haaretz must permit other opinions too, this is a real problem.
Gideon Levy, I appreciate your directness on this side of the Atlantic and so do many others. Howevr, I realize directnesss in general can be perceived as confrontational when in fact it is anything but. Nevetheless, just remember Isreal scoffed at its prophets too. And Moses broke the tablets of the law in digust when he came down from the Mount and saw them worshipping the golden calf. So press on and afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted! After all, that's your job as a journalist--and you are wonderful! Peace and Thanks, , Dutch
why you call us unpatriotic? exept this point you are correct in everything, especially in censorship and stalinist policies of haaretz. reading only haaretz people can imagine that sl... likr g. levy, a. haas, m. benvenisty, a. eldar represents more than extreme leftwing crazy fringe of israeli jewish society. i like your post. keep going.
You are right that life in Gaza is brutish, nasty and short but maybe it is not as statistics state that it is till better than in Syria, Iraq, Egypt,Sudan and others in the Arab world. I believe that Israel is the root cause of this problem as they have failed to give Hamas a free hand to murder civilians. If only...than life would be so rosy in Gaza. Isarel must take responsibility and assist UNWRA and the Palestinians in their G-d given right to be permanent refugees. Israel has an obligation to see that all Hamas members are protected and live to uproot the occupation and be able to form the next governmet. These poor misunderstood people want nothing more than to be able to pick olives and these vile Israelis living in Sderot and the Negev are getting into their faces. They must defend themselves and Hamas only kills soldiers and if they are not in unifornm in 18 years they will be and as for old man and women they bring cookies and milk to the soldiers and that assists the war effort so they must be killed.Honour demand this.
Mr.G.Levy The settlers that you demonize were/are the backbone of our country and people. They were not all zealous Zionists as you suggest,many of them are secular. Moreover the majority of our citizens abhore the forced removal from a place they laboured for nigh 30 years with unrelenting hard work when they moved to a desolate place,made it bloom. The end resulting this episode was totally shameful remember this Levy. You did say they didn't just decide one day to up and go to settle in the Land you call wasn't ours.Of course it was.Perhaps way back in history but still OURS! Be that as it may the settlers presence was a good buffer for Israel proper and look what is happening now with the proliferation of weapons,daily kassam attacks which prior to the disengagement did not occur.Additionally the the Palestinians benefitted greatly with jobs procurement. Look at them now,and what do you see? Chaos and unemployment,disenchantment with their leaders for lack of jobs and thus constant terror.If you think the removal of the so-called settlers is laudatory, then you are very much mistaken. Think again! S
In June of last year, the Islamic Supreme Council of America called for the support of the world community, UNESCO and the United Nations to stop the destruction of venerated Muslim sites in Saudi Arabia!!! The exclusive emphasis of the OIC,(Leaders of a recent conference in Mecca, which emphasized the safeguarding of historic and holy Islamic sites in Jerusalem, are being criticized for turning a blind eye to the reported destruction of such sites in Saudi Arabia!!!) on the danger such sites in Jerusalem allegedly face at the hands of Israeli Jews is a "highly selective politicization of the issue," said Al-Ahmed. "Jerusalem is actually more authentic than Mecca today, the preservation is much better than that of Mecca," he said. "It is very ironic," said Ali Al-Ahmed, director of the Washington-based Institute for Gulf Affairs. "The same place where they had their meeting, not one mile away, there are Islamic landmarks much more important in Islamic history than all Islamic landmarks in Jerusalem, that are being destroyed." By comparison, Al-Ahmed noted the irony of a tape of the late Sheikh Mohammed bin Othaimeen, who he described as the "number one Wahhabi cleric." "On the tape he says, 'We hope one day we'll be able to destroy the dome of the Prophet Mohammed," al-Ahmed quoted bin Othaimeen as saying in reference to the "Green Dome" (Gunbad-e-Khadra), under which Mohammed is buried in the Al Nabawi Sharif mosque in Medina, Saudi Arabia. Prophet Mohammed's childhood home set to be demolished Al-Ahmed, a Saudi scholar and expert on Saudi political affairs, estimates that the majority of Islamic landmarks in Saudi Arabia have already been destroyed. Islamic architecture expert Sami Angawi told media earlier this year that at least 300 historical buildings have been leveled in Mecca and Medina over the past 50 years. "A telling example is the house where the Prophet Mohammed was born and another house he lived in until he was 29 are going to be demolished," Al-Ahmed said. Also destroyed was the 18th -century Ottoman-era Ajyad Fort. "They destroyed it at night. They blew up the hill where the fort was situated to make room for hotels," Al-Ahmed said. When authorities allegedly destroyed one of the five renowned "Seven Mosques" built by the Prophet Mohammed's daughter and four of his "greatest Companions," Wahhabists were approving. "The mosques are not welcomed by Wahhabis," said Al-Ahmed. "It's partly political. They don't want Shia to go there to pray." Where the Abu Bakr mosque stood, there is now an ATM machine, said Al-Ahmed. The home in which the founder of Islam grew up is slated to be destroyed, as well as his birthplace, which has a library built over it. Two major battlefields with both historic and religious significance have also reportedly been paved over. So fear not MEOW for Islamic sites in Yerushalayim and wake up to the destruction taking place in the heart of the Islamic world by your Muslim brothers!
Khalid never said that. Anyway all the Jewish prophets up to Jesus, are called "MUSLIM"(kind of pre-muslims)because they talked to G-d. of course Islam was introduced much later.
Gideon Levi nailed the problem perfectly. In the aftermath of the 1967 war, Israel allowed a group of messianic, ultra militant, violent and deeply undemocratic so called "national religious jews' to run her foreign and national security policy. With many willing politicians giving them overt and covert assistance, they turned Israel into a jewish apartheid state. They have made a mockery of whatever democratic priciples Israel had, picking and chosing when to ignore the rule of law and when to pretend to adhere to it. In jewish tradition, those who stand by while others commit crimes are accessoriy to the crimes. The silent majority that has passively allowed those criminals to run crazy for so many years is part of the problem.
He doesn't believe that arabs murder jews. He does believe that if you negotiate with Arafat peace will follow. He does beleive that if you withdraw from Gaza or the west bank there will be no more terror, no more rockets, no more murder. Gideon Levy doesn't believe in arab murder before it happens, while it is happening or after is has already happened. If Isreal goes down, it will be due to Gideon Levy and all of the rest of the starry eyed left and demographics. It is too bad that he has an international forum.
you may be kidnapped but there you go.khalid may help.
nasty brutish and short.
It appears that the Israeli Looney left as properly represented by Gideon Levy is determined to demonize different segments of Israeli society and try to split apart the Jewish people. There is only one lesson that we Jews need to learn from anti-Semites. That is that we are all Jews, the religious and the secular, the Russian and the Moroccan, the socialist and the capitalist, the academic and the street sweeper. We cannot disengage from each other and by demonizing other Jews we only demonize ourselves. For the benefit of the re-known Talmudic scholar Comical Khalid on this board I must mention the Talmudic discussion that the destruction of the second temple was caused by senseless hatred among Jews.
to haaretz having a tiddly-winks correspondent.not many are interested in tiddly-winks yet haaretz keeps telling us about it. if all your readers send a nominal amount can we pay gideon levy off.stalinists are now passe.
Nothing to do with God, but although there are nasty things happening, don`t get hysterical. To us all Happy new year, a better new year in peace www.boloji.com/poetry/0200-0300/0290.ht.htm
deronda Here are a few more in cahoots with your list: Uri Avnery Ghasan Khatib Azmi Bishara Need we say more.Just scramble them and make an omelet for their delectation. They'd like that and revel in it. Shame mainly on the ones that really are supposed to be one of us. S
Messianic Settlers are maybe even worse than Jewish settlers.I remember very well how some Messianic settlers murdered 2 or 3 horses belonging to Palestinian family..in Hebron and when the horses were dying or dead they danced of joy in front of the Palestinians house. So disgusting. I`d rather poison human beings, but no animal. They did, because they knew how the relationship btw Arabs and horses is.How disgusting!!!
I hope you have read and understood the underline of my second post to you. I still would like Haaretz to post my original contribution to the article "Clarion call", in which I basecally disagreed with the main premise of his anlysis as to the emrgency of the fith component of the Israeli population, as being a threat to its democratic ideals. And that is the my request to you is to post my original response. Thank you
Khalid is talking about occupation. It is generally agreed that the Egyptians were not Arabs at the time of Moses. It is also generally agreed that the Arabs are descendants of Abrahams concubine Hagar. The question therefore is how are the Egyptians speakers of an Arab Language and how are they considered Arabs. IS IT BECAUSE OF ARAB CONQUEST and is Egypt still occupied and where are the original Egyptians?
I think that Gideon Levy has forgotton what democracy is, and he needs to take a course in Civics. The last time I heard Isreal is a democracy and supposely has freedom of speech. The extreame left radicals have got to realize that settlers and the nromal population that has a different ideal than do the left have the right to have their ideas and to protest when needed. If that is ever lost then Israel becomes a banana republic and a dictatorship.
this article is travesty of jornalism as it should be. 1. author did not like to be informed about position of leaders of some minority group, it is his business. 2. haaretz does inform us every day with positions taken by g. levy, a. haas etc. that represent almost nobody, i would not use even word minority, since it is crazy extreme fringe of jewish society in israel. 3.this is a contradiction. or every minority has right to be represented-of course, haaretz will never accept such rascist undemocratic position-, in this case author is simply a hitler-stalin-mao type jornalist or we shall have only platitudes that everybody accepts.
The Settlements were a historic and strategic mistakes for Israel as it pitted Israel against its neighbors and friends and made them violators of international law and human rights and weakened its alliances. Six previous American presidents told Israeli leaders the settlements were obstacles to peace and against international law and still Israeli leaders kept on builing in defiance. Now the settlements and the occupation to protect them and the barrier are the root cause of Palestinian oppression and violence and they keep Israel embedded in a culture of war and oppression instead of peace and justice. Israeli leaders should have listened to their friends instead of acting against them. Now their friends feel compelled to act against their unlawful expansion wtih divestments and boycotts. What a shame. Surely, nobody wanted this as it creates tension among friends and weakens Israel's alliances. Dutch
the hallowed pages of Takback are once again at the fingers of our intrepid fashion design student, Mona~~~~~~. We are to be treated with many an inane, hate filled stream of bumble gum chatter. in the spirit of Gideon Levy "we must disengage from her, castigate and ostracise her...until she does some soul searching." For once I must agree with the censorship policies of Mr. Levy.
people like you and a. haas are endangering israeli democracy. as the matter of fact, i do prefer old dr. goebbels, since he was more honest than both of you, of course he twisted facts as both of you .
You are than smart, you are very astute. But it shows that you have failed your principles of a liberal mouthpiece by refusing to post my " Clarion Call" I have written to show the selected tolerant principles you administer in your publication, and especially when it is a Morrocan Jew that is professing tolerance towards the Russians, Arabs and AShkenaz religious, coming from a Secular intellectual it is not bad. You want to perpetuate the image of backwardness that Ben Gurion and Golda Meir wanted you to believe. Read the excellent synopsis of Tom Segev from the book of Joe Golan "Dapim Mitoman". Dare post this refutal, You have no princples as I found out in many cases. Unfortunately, the Morrocans were in a beilief, unlike the Russians immigration, that it is unpatriotic to have a different Media, advancing and categorysing the interests and wrights of the Morrocan, because the leadership wanted in its wisdom to integrate in the mother toungue, and how else one can assume the leadership of a coumtry without knowing the inside out of the lingua terrata. Well, look what is happening now, pretty soon one of them "dialna", is going to assume the seat of Premiership, and that will validate the wisdom of the original Marrocan Jewish Leadership, despite all the obstacles and the prejudices. One has to point out the tolerance of the country that accepted the tolerance of the Morrocan jews, thus the prize is almost at hand. It is the duty of Haaretz to promote and accept different outlookks, different points of referrences, different auto-suggestion when one use a known language. That is a multi-cultural and multi-suggestive mode of contributing to the improvement of life for everyone in Israel. Please read the answer of Raba, Rabi Elisha Ben Hamozeg, the Chief Rabi of Rome at the end of 19th Century (He was a Marrocan born in Safi grew up in Italy) to the French Catolic who wanted to convert to JudaISM " bE TOLERANT TO YOUR OWN RELIGION, DO NOT jUDGE OTHER RELIGION OUT OF SPITE FOR THINGS YOU DON'T LIKE ABOUT IT". wHAT A BEAUTIFUL TOLERANT MAN HE WAS, AND THAT IS THE TOLERANCE OF THE jEWS FROM Morocco.
There seems to be a bit of confusion here about what is needed to obtain power in a democracy. The secret is not necessarily having an "in" with the top guys in the government. What is needed is organization - organization and good strategy. If you read histories of the Russian revolution, you will learn that the Communists were not a majority in the first post revolutionary government, but they were very, very well organized and disciplined and ruthless, so they were able to take over from the less organized Menshivists. The Nazis also did not come to power with a majority. There are many other examples which could be brought here. One of the major secrets of obtaining power is manipulating the media. I was in the "New Left" in the US in the 1960s. In the SDS one of the major factors in planning a demonstration was how to get media coverage. This has two goals. One is to get the group's message out to the majority, and to give the impression that the group is far more influential than it may actually be. (The "New Left" in the '60s US was actually quite small, but very, very media savvy.) The whole runup to the Disengagement shows that the National Religious are very aware of the media factor. The second objective is to make members of the group feel important, to feel as if they are actually gaining control. This can work even better if the group can identify "enemies" who can be seen to be "persecuting" it. Mr. Feiglin may really believe that the religious right is about to take over the State. It may not be true, but it gives him the dedication he needs to be effective. Another factor is discipline and concerted action. This allows pressure on government officials at far greater levels than most citizens groups. Good organization and party discipline also means that the group can deliver a reliable block of votes for (or against) any candidate it chooses - which can be very intimidating to a candidate in a close race, and in the Israeli electoral system, even small parties can make a crucial difference. I heard Rabbi Meir Kahane speak on a couple of occasions, and he mentioned these sorts of issues directly. He had obviously studied the methods of the New Left very closely. The "right wing" in Israel can therefore be seen as a direct descendant of the American '60s New Left in terms of its tactics and organization. In America the New Left brought down President Lyndon Johnson, so it's not so unreasonable for the "New Right" in Israel to believe it can bring down Ariel Sharon. Granted, the national religious have had close ties with past governments, but that does not mean that the government is their tool. It mostly says that the Israeli right is just very, very good at politics. The obvious deduction: if those opposed to the Right want to make sure it doesn't reach its goal, they'd better get busy and get organized, and maybe also hold some effective demonstrations to promote their own goals in the media.
" islam wasnt even born the time Torah was written???" At least you admit that the Jews were there before the Muslims. Khalid, though, says that Islam existed in Adam and Eve's times.
gaza is in a state of anarchy.the heart of darkness cannot get much darker.
khalid asks us to leave the palestinians alone and they will leave us alone.just like in the 1950s. the fadayeen attacked israel non-stop.their cry was "ithbach al yahood"(kill the jews)there was no occupation at that time or is the existence of israel also an occupation for the excitable khalid.
I would like to agree with Waleed abu Yechya about the level of civility in this exchange. Not only is it far too uncivilized for general response lists, it is also far below the usual level of Haaretz reader forums. Calling names loudly is indeed no substitute for thought and persuasive writing. As a dual citizen who lived for years in Israel, I found it very, very bitter to see pcitures of Israeli Jews screaming at Israeli soldiers in a deliberate attempt to traumatize them, and read reports of Israeli Jews pouring caustic soda and dropping objects on Israeli soldiers. It was particularly bitter since so many of the settlers doing these things were immigrants from America. However, this does not give me the right to use abusive language in describing fellow Jews. I do not agree with the "far left" either, so I think all sides in this discussion need to clean up their language a little. Those non-Jews who are contributing - some of them obviously Israeli citizens - also deserve respect. There is a Talmudic saying, "Derech Ererz kadman laTorah"..."Before you can know Torah you must first have civility."
Bill, Israel has sowed illegal settlements and an illegal occupation and barrier to ensure they are protected. . What could be more unlaw and sinful than this? God and the law needs to go after the right people--the radical settlers and the radical Zionists expansionists. Dutch
Shalom Fredman, You need to face the truth about your "pioneer settlers". Israel made the mistake in giving them a place to spew their hate and harm against the Palstinian people. They need to return to their country of orgin and spew their hate somewhre else. Dutch
There is a parable offered by an historian about a man falling from a skycraper. His landing will be fatal unless he cushions the blow by falling on a bystander below. After surviving he has an obligation to aid the injured innocent, yet he continues to inflict damage. This is the story of contemporary Israel and it is appalling to see so many apologists for its continued refusal to recognize the rights of the Palestinians. The colinization of occupied lands is a continuing stain on the state of Israel. Its failure to recognize that as an ethical imperative Palestinians are entitled to the same aspirations of Jews only serves to delegitimize the pivot of Israel's standing within the world community. It is time to stop offering excuses, it needs to be unequivocallly stated that it is the intention of Israel to withdraw from all occuped land. Only then will Israel have undertaken its obligation to move the cause of peace forward.
But actually I wonder why he and his leftist friends never question the attitude of the Arabs that are not ready to accept Jews in their neighbourhood. In leftist eyes this has nothing to do with hate towards the Jews, but in reality it is just that. The hate towards the Jews and the intolerance of Islam and its claim to more and more lands is the real problem. What is needed is a complete denazification of the Arab Islamic mind. And in the same time it is the left that needs a little soul-searching!
Those Germans that didn't want any part of the Nazi path were called "Self hating germans" and I see on different Jewish hate sites that they call you a "self hating Jew". These Christian fundamentalists and their orange brothers in Israel have all accepted the Apocalyps and can't wait for it to happen, but then they run up against men like you Gideon and all they can do is to curse you, slander you and threaten you. It takes a good man to stand up against evil and a rightious soul not to let it stop you. You are a part of a Jewish conscience that is as old as Abraham and you are up against a bunch of lunatics that God wouldn't even support in their wildest dreams. Cut them lose or let them drag you down, those are the alternatives.
do you think you can continue to let these people do all this crazy stuff? do you think looking away will help? if you don't watch out, one day these people might rule the country - and join North Korea, Iran in the "axis of evil".
What is different from settling today or settling in 1948? If the middle east belongs to Isreal, it should take it as a whole - if it doesn't what is it founded upon?
Wow, very rarely do you read stuff like this. A threat to the democratic regime, that in itself is a contradiction. And we have to settle accounts with them, what does that mean? If the mafia had more guys like this they wouldn't be in such trouble in America. The hatred for fellow Israeli citizens who aren't going to blow him up and in fact are becoming the backbone of the IDF is more than a little strange.
Khalid's lack of journalistic ethics is only surpassed by his wild imagination when attempting to vilify Jews and Israel's claim to the land. Day by day his rants get to look more like Harry Potter and less like the work of an adult. This last one really takes the cake. Time to leave Hebron Khalid and go out into the big world where you can see beyond the world you have created for yourself. Either that or a couple of doses of Lithium should do it.
I am trying to participate in the debate in the matter of Levy'article. I wish to find out why my contribution has not been posted. Should you find a reason why my response is unsuitable for your Talkback, I would appreciate if you could share it with me, and the reast of the panel of contributors. Thank you.
I am not a psychiatrist but have read a lot of books about self hate. I am not entitled to give a diagnosis, and I also dont want to do it, but Gideon Levy's obsession with seeing all Israelies (some more than others) as evil, and all Palestinians (some more than others) as blameless, borders pathological behavior of self hate. The fact that he continues to live in Israel instead of moving to Ramallah, as his soul sister Amira Hass has done, shows a masoquist streak in him.
Ben Israel writes: In the territories captured in the Palestinian war of Aggression they launched in 1948 also knownas the Israel War of Independence. Curious where you get your facts, if Israel was the aggressor, what were the armies of 5 or 6 Arab states doing in the middle of Israel in 1948?
He will destroy all of Israel`s enemies - basically the armies of the world including Islam and deliver Israel and the Jewish people. Islam has sown death , suicide , murder of innocence - It has lived by the sword and it will die by the sword . It wants to obliterate the world , starting with the Jews - it is therefore understandable that the world will want to obliterate Islam """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" I cant help but laugh a little when i hear ignorant people like you spew your venom.How can yoru messiah exterminate islam when islam wasnt even born the time Torah was written??? Islam is the youngest religion of the 3 Godly faiths. we are not 2000 or 50000 years old,only 1400 years and look how many we are in this world.Islam doesnt care about annihilating anything,it only spreds messege of peace and love,jews are bringing upon themselves the rewards of what you have sewn in the Holyland and youre just paying for yoru own sins. Dont blame us for your faults. You deserve what you get.
They aleardy say that when and if they reach power, they will destroy the Aqsa Mosque, the Dome of the Rock, and unleash Israeli`s nuclear power. (Beny Elon has already called for a worldwide crusade to obliterate Islam.)"""""""""""""""""""""""" Allah Forbid that day is never never coming.These loonies can scream shout or bark what they like but our Holy places are protected by God and forever shall Insha Allah and when the doomsday will arrive the Holy Mosque and rest of holy sites of our Prophets will ascend to heaven. I dont worry that they will ever harm our Holy places,they can only dream of it.God will never allow it.
Reading the article and the few serious responses makes me conclude that the 'guilt' of Israeli settlers is not as straight forward as Levi wants us to believe. First of all I have to repeat my enormous respect for Levi: his articles make me feel that there is a voice of reason in the madness that is called the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories. Actually, I believe that Levi will one day be part of the Israei history books, as a unique example of an uindividual that speaks out publicly to the outrageous policies of occupation. This doesn't mean that Levi is right all of the time (only 95% of the times he is completely right) In the above article Levi tries to make us believe the wickedness of the national-religious zionists (NOT the settlers, as many participants to the Talkback forum wrote)and the exeggerated attention they get from "the majority" in Israel. He focuses on the -totally uninteresting- quotes from national religious leader that Israelis read in papers or see on television. Although right in this, Levi forgets to focus on the much more interesting mechanisms that lie behind the decisions to publish these quotes: why do newspaper editors choose to quote these uninteresting people? Who makes them so prominent in the news reals? I may be wrong, but my impression is that newspaper and television news editors are mainly secular Israelis and their audiences are also mainly secular. Then why are the secular bombarding the secular with news of -uninteresting- national-religious? This question may be harder to answer then just the question of the moral destruction of Israeli society by the national-religious fanatics (which is quite clear) but it is far more essential. Could we read more from Levi on this theme? (could we read more of Levi anyway?)
Cant seem to sowllow yet another comical Israeli political scenerio. The majority hate the hard core religious zionists in israel yet they are so powerful at the same time. They are discriminated against yet they're the frontrunners of settler movement. Anyway you twist it,the so called marginal hardliners do the dirty job for the rest of them,who are hiding behind the masks of centirst or lefty ideology. They are all the same to me. Liers,opressors and land theives.
I sense the painful memories of Gaza's forgotten beach. Perhaps, what is needed is not the settler's response to the sexual misgivings of a Chinese opium seller, but rather in the words of the great lesbian Gertrude Stein....A Rose is a Rose is a Rose.
Why is it that we can find on the same websites the ISM, Khalid, Gideon Levi, Amira Hass?
The reason there is terror is because Oslo gave the PA 50,000 assault guns which led to the demise of any moderate Palestinians. There will be peace when the Palestinians have a majority that are willing to compromise for peace. Everyone in the world knows that Israel will make very significant concessions for peace. Until there is a real Palestinian partner Israel has every right to settle anywhere in the Land of Israel. Israel won 3 wars (1948,67 and Oslo). It's so counterproductive of the left (the media/Europe) to point the finger at Israel/settlers when the solution will only come when the Palestinians are ready.
The moral giant is spot on, as always! He asks why statements of religios-zionist leaders are extensively quoted in the media. Indeed, this gives them an entirely undeserved platform. Haaretz should take the lead: whenever a report on such a statement is inadvertently included in the daily news, the Editors should remove it and replace it with an essey by Gideon Levy, Amira Hass, Gideon Samet or Akiva Eldar. Thus, Haaretz would preserve its ideological purity, a shining example for other newspapers to follow. In the past, the ideological purity of the paper has been seriously tainted. For example, Haaretz used to give an occasional platform to the hate-monger Moshe Arens, but thanks materialist dialectics, this practice has stopped.
Bill, you cannot be from NZ. You must be from another planet.
Khalid , You do not have to fear Messianic Jews - But ; You do have to fear the Jewish Messiah they believe in . It is written that he will break the eastern sky with a host of Angels , His Glory will shine from the east to the west . He will destroy all of Israel's enemies - basically the armies of the world including Islam and deliver Israel and the Jewish people - fully restoring G-D'S promises to them . It is a fact that whatever we sow we reap . Islam has sown death , suicide , murder of innocence - It has lived by the sword and it will die by the sword . It wants to obliterate the world , starting with the Jews - it is therefore understandable that the world will want to obliterate Islam . Islamic murderers are a danger to Israel and the world - Not Messianic Jews whose only desire is the full restoration of Israel and the fulfillment of G-D'S WORD
Pakistan has killed 15 "targets" last months. Radical muslims, who Musharraf wanted to get out of the way. Targeted killings are common in the world, it happens in Africa, in Iran and also in Iraq.
And about the nuclear threat of Messianic Jews, please Khalid, do also this reality check.
The answer to your question is that Gideon Levy rightly sees Israel as the guilty party.
All antisemites love the settlers, because if one thing's for sure, it will be them who will flush Israel down the gutters of history. Keep on settling!
As an expert on Palestinian affairs one would think that Levy could at least provide us with a guide to all the various armed Palestinian factions. And he could explain perhaps who hates who more and for what reasons.
A question for Ben Israel, which he might or might not respond to. The Prince has special powers but even he can't compel Ben to answer the question, which is: Ben Israel, have you ever felt any guilt about anything you have done? I don't want to know the details; just 'yes' or no'.
Please let people speak freely. do not intimade them by calling them names. if you have an idea please share it politely. Those who call names reflect an impotant fact thant they are incapable to respond logically and hence become emotional and lose their sight. I would like to hear more about ideas and less verbal abuse. I hope everybody shares my opinion
These people are probbly the most dangerous of all humanbeings under the sun. Now they are planning to control Israel by infiltrating the main political parties (Feiglin in the Likud) and infiltrating the army (40% of top officers are religious ZIonists affiliated with Gush Emunim and Ben Akiva movements). They aleardy say that when and if they reach power, they will destroy the Aqsa Mosque, the Dome of the Rock, and unleash Israeli's nuclear power. (Beny Elon has already called for a worldwide crusade to obliterate Islam.) They also say openly that they will apply Halacha on non-Jews. This means that non-Jews would have to be exterminated, expelled or enslaved as water carriers or wood hewers. These fanatics are a danger upon themselves, upon Israel and upon the world. They must be checked before it is too late.
Dear friend, I am very happy to know that there is someone who is thinking in the right direction. The settler ans settlements are illegal and they brought Israel more harm than good. The national religous movement with its religous zeal have hijjacked the israeli society for a long period of time. It caused a great damage to israeli society and reputation. The decendents of the victims of the hollocost becaue the occupiers and persecutors of the innocent civilian palestinian populations. It is very sad to know that israel is the only colonial (occuping) power in the 21 st century. you would expect the sons and duaghters of the survivals of the hollocost to be carriers of a humaine and merciful message, not the occupiers and persecutors of a whole nation. Look deep into your hearts and ask yourself this question: Is this the picture or image we want to portray of our ancesstors? The israelis cannot be both the victim and the persectors. choose a picture for yourselves. occuping nation or free nation. The soldiers and thier leaders change your society in very small increments that you do not even notice. but after a while you will lose what you have fought for, a free democratic nation. Targeted killings are accepted today. Ask yourself are you a society of law. if your answer is yes, then the targeting killing policies are erroding your values. Please look deep into your heart and think about what country do you want for yourself and your children.
Baruch Hashem! The wonderful "settlers" will be around long after the Gideon Levys in Eretz Yirael
This article shows how politicians are unhonest and unfair. Settlers have been encouraged by the leftists and by the rightists to stay where there are. They have been even paid for. Many of them died defending the homes they built .. with the money of the government. But both leftists and rightists asked them to evacuate the homes... They are just puppets in the hands of the politicians. The only fault of the settlers is that they are racists as the Israeli politicians. Instead of trying to live with the Palestinians and to create with them one democratic state with equal rights for all, they contributed to the oppression of the Palestinians and still consider them less than animals... They uprooted thousands and thousands of olive trees. In this way, the proved they are uggly people, but not more uggly than the Israeli politicians who destroyed 400 Palestinian villages and expelled their inhabitants for the only crime of being non-jews. The only way to repair these faults is to unify the country and treat all the inhabitants equally, and to allow the return of the Palestinian refugees. This is the only way to reach peace. Makd no illusion. There will never be peace as the zionists will never recognize their faults. PEACE WILL BE THE FRUIT OF JUSTICE (Isaiah 32:17). We can
amira haas gideon levy akiva eldar and meron benvenisti.if they agree to leave israel i would be willing to start a fund to help them start a new life far away from us. but would anyone be willing to have them? i suggest north korea.probably not stalinist enough.
they would be hard line stalinists.and unforgiving.its not really the philosophy rather the character traits.
he confessed with a certain amount of pride.
what percentage are the hard left? surely less then 1%? so why has haaretz got so many hard leftists writing for them? in addition to the four crazies there are the following: zeev sternhell,ruth sinai, lily galili, somebody golan and amira palestine.far more then is fair. who is the weakest link?i vote amira haas.her writing is unbearable.
Israel is a democratic country, and the government comes to power through elections. The "Pals" are ruled by a thugs junta, made up of terrorist organizations. Terrorists are a plague, which has to be exterminated for the good of humankind. "Without the settlements, without the settlers, there would be no `need` for the idf to occupy and control the West Bank." Which settlements? Don't be shy and speak out. For the "Pals", all the Jews in the ME are settlers. "they are the front line of the dispossession of the Palestinians." This is impossible, because an Arab Palestinian state has never existed, so the "pals" cannot be dispossessed. They came from different Arab countries and "Pals" are a recent invention as a tool against Israel.
have no support in israel.check out the polls.even beilin seeks to join sharon. as far as sharon is concerned the caravan moves on and the dogs bark.some of the barking is notably illiterate.
gideon levy amira haas akiva eldar meron benvenisti
'Haaretz' continues to give this man a platform to spew gratuitous hatred at those who unlike himself,truly care for this country.
So-called "religious" Zionists are, as Gideon Levy suggests, a disgrace to Israel; that is, to both religion and Zionism. A movement that melds racism, aggression and ultra-nationalism is frightening indeed, and it especially ought to be to Jews who experienced the evils of ultra-nationalism-cum-militarism-expansionism-racism in Europe in the 1930s. If you're religious, pray the "religious" Zionists never reach the critical mass that the fascists did in Europe; and if you're a real Zionist, end the ongoing atrocity of the occupation and get busy improving a real democracy that can co-exist with a viable Palestinian state.
Levy tries to make a scapegoat responsible for his own "sins"-his sin of living in Israel and having been a supporter of Labor Zionism. He claims that the "religious Zionist settlers" are responsible for the "occupation". Of course when the Arabs talk about "occupation" they mean 1948, not 1967. Levy artificially tries to shed his "guilt" for accepting Israel in the pre-1967 territories, by blaming the "religious Zionist settlers" for settlement in the post-1967 territores (Judea/Samaria/Gaza). Who set up Gush Katif?--it wasn't the "religious Zionists", it was Rabin and Peres of the Labor party who encouraged the "religious Zionists" to settle there, before turning their backs on them and then cursing them out for being an "obstacle to peace". Who set up Ofra and Elon Moreh in Samaria? Rabin and Peres. Who set up Kiryat Arba and Gush Etzion in Judea? Eshkol, Moshe Dayan, Yigal Allon of the Labor Party. The Labor Party built up these settlements, just like all the settlements they built in the territories captured in the Palestinian war of aggression they launched in 1948 also known as the Israel "War of Independence". Levy feels guilt at the very creation of the state of Israel, but he benefits from it, so he blames the "religious Zionists" for what he (wrongfully) considers the crimes of his own, secular Zionist movement from the start. Poor man, such feelings of guilt! I as a "religious Zionist" have no such feelings of guilt and we will continue to build in spite of the efforts of Levy and all his fellow travellers to ultimately delegitimize the Zionist enterprise!
it is the bankrupt company of gideon levy amira haas meron benvenisti and akiva eldar otherwise known as haas levy benvenisti and eldar. bankrupt leftists with crazy ideas.they never pay a price for their craziness.
... is because they are the front line of the dispossession of the Palestinians. And this is the perpetual goal of the junta that runs israel. The zionists, especially those spreading throughout the West Bank like a plague, are in a very real sense shock troops for the state of israel. Without the settlements, without the settlers, there would be no 'need' for the idf to occupy and control the West Bank. This is why they have so much influence in israel; they are agents of the state.