The value of laws against Holocaust denial

27.12.2005 Your comment in Haaretz's? site seems like one from a thinking person, yet one who has accepted what she's read merely because it's the most widely published. Maybe the matter doesn't strike your attention so much as other matters. There do exist a number of sites which offer their readers -reasoned- views which support their opposition to the 'Holocaust'. Have you taken a look at some of them ? Cordially, Fritz Schaedel H

Having long been facinated with WWII history ( my father having been a combat pilot during the war)I read several of Irvings books long before I became aware of revisionism. I attended a book signing and Q/A put on by Irving in 2004. During the Q/A period Irving was bluntly asked if he believed that Jews were gassed during WWII. He replied that he did believe that Jews were gassed, based on information he had gleaned from Russian State historical archives. When Irving was pressed further to comment on the Holocaust, his comment was, as best as I can remember, went something like this. " 3000 years of Jewish history is utterly boring. Their experiences as a people during WWII is the only thing that has made them interesting." And that was it. He then went on to answer other questions and the topic was never discussed again for the rest of the hour. Could this arrest be a calculated move on Irvings part to make him more intersting to the reading public, and spur sales of his books?

Implementing laws against holocaust denials/revisionism shows in my opinion that something wrong with the issue ?! If the holocaust case is solid it does not need law to protect himself !!! but if is not ...

Jeff, I think Israel should be kicked out of the UN since it has failed to fulfill the conditions of its sovereignty and the present leadership shows they are incapable of complying with those conditions with their formaldehyde vision and side stepping diplomacy. In addition, Israel track record is an abomination of its outlaw status with over180 UN Resolutions against its name--many with Security Council bindings. They are already in gross violations of the fourth Geneva Convention and Human Rights laws. Not to mention their violation of the International Court of Justice on the barrier. Thus, Israel's the whole outlaw status must be brought into view with its default status. That's how a bank or a merchant would handle a customer's account and that's how the UN should handle this account. That's just responsible management. Let the Israelis kick up their heels instead of crying like hyenas (with the anti-Semitism label) every time someone legitimately criticizes them. I fully support the Arab states' right to demand this too.If iIsrael wishes to join the global economy it must be a team player. That comes with the territories too. This action is way overdue as far as I am concerned. I imagine plenty others feel this way too. Dutch

Yossi Beilin who was Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister in 1994 remarked of Armenia in the Knesset:- "It was not war. It was most certainly massacre and genocide, something the world must remember .. We will always reject any attempt to erase its record, even for some political advantage." As far as I am aware there has been no similar statement coming at a similar level from the Palestine Authority.

Any proof to back up your absurd claims that we deny that the attempted genocide of Armenians occured? Or are you just making inflammatory remarks to get the attention you so crave?

There's only one newspaper in Miami, the Miami Herald. It is generally pro-Israel. There is a Fort Lauderdale newspaper, the Sun-Sentinel, which is generally pro-Palestinian. Newspapers have been folding, all over America, for decades. TV and the Internet are too much competition for them. Here in Minnesota, the St Paul Pioneer-Press is about to fold, leaving only one national newspaper in the state: the Minneapolis Star-Tribune. Veritas needs to give up his "the Jews control the newpapers" rant. It's archaic.

"And you`re wrong to blame it on Muslims, because Palestine unlike most other Arab countries has cohesions b/n Christians and Muslims." Irish Sensation You really don't know what you're talking about. Read and learn: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1129540575411&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

i just said its a law thats in the bible and i pointed out that i know of no jews who have married aboriginals.nor do any of my friends or relitaves know of any jews that married aboriginals.just stating what i know in my world that is all.when you mention Gst you make me so proud and i forget all the history thank you for pointing out the hardship we have caused you with these in equal laws that benefit us so dearly since 60% of aboriginals live below the poverty rate.man i feel so much shame,please make us pay GST.i cant believe you feel slighted.you forgot to mention the free education at the christian schools complete with its horrors.

Check out this linkand one can see god examples why it is still very much alive today and why I hope Israel will be Israel for eternity. http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part7.html

Howdy Dutch; The legitimacy of the State of Israel does not rest upon anything that the UN does or does not do. It rests upon a majority of foreign, independent states recognizing her and exchanging ambassadors with her. The fact that only two Arab countries (Egypt and Jordan) recognize Israel is of no consequence because the remaining Arab countries do not form a majority in the international community. If you want to try to kick Israel out of the United Nations, be my guest, but her membership in the UN has nothing whatsoever to do with Israel's right to exist as an independent country which is granted to her solely by her ability to defend herself against all comers and a consensus among the international community of that fact. Switzerland has long been recognized as an independent state, but for a long time she was not a member of the UN. In fact, I don't know if Switzerland is a member of the UN today--I'd have to look that one up. The point is that countries come and go regardless of the UN. India, Bangladesh, Tibet, South Vietnam, and East Germany are examples.

"- I partially agree with you. It is a culture of political correctness in USA. In NJ as well as FL you can`t find any newspaper critical of any ethnic/religious group. I never seen anything critical about African-Americans, Hispanic, Asians or any other group. I never seen here any anti-muslim sentiments in newspapers. Islam is always called a "Religion of peace" etc." I see plenty of derogatory columns, by both local and nationally syndicated columnists, that do a pretty good job of trashing Islam and various Muslim countries. But I have to sympathize with the owners and officials of most American news medi - what with zealous pro-Israel attack dogs such as FLAME, CAMERA, ADL,AIPAC, The Wiesenthal Institute, and a multitude of local Jewish organizations all ready to leap down their editorial throats every time a bit of the unpleasant truth about Israel's policies and practices somehow slips into the news, they simply don't need the aggravation or expense of defending the truth when so much of the general American public is already so uninformed and apathetic that it would take a year of Sunday edition sized issues devoted to nothing but the history of Palestine and Zionism to bring them up to speed. Better to just keep their heads down, their editorial mouths shut, and let those advertising revenues keep rolling in. And, of course, there have been no end of statements in most of the American news media I see by various private and public figures in which "blood libels" and other gratuitous slurs and slanders have been heaped on the French, Germans, Belgians, etc. simply because most of the people in those nations were smarter (or better informed) than most Americans and didn't buy into our leaders' specious reasons for invading Iraq.

any racist remark, how about a jewish owner calling his team the redskins,my point is that the press is much more in touch with the jews then the aboriginals to deny that is to have your head in the sand.please dont insult me,how would you feel if an aboriginal was in charge of jewish affairs, not to kosher is it.well how many jews do you think work for indian affairs.name the last treaty amercan to hold a position in congress or indian affairs.

All anti-Semites are stupid and made for our amusement. Laugh at them, as long as they pose no physical threat and the general population is too smart to take them seriously, that's what they're there for.

just because the jews prefer to mary their own, doesnt mean they feel superior or are racist. Many ethnic people prefer to marry their own. It makes it a lot easier especially when kids are involved. That doesnt mean to say jews dont marry outside --- they do indeed! I believe close to 50% of american jews marry outside. How do you think a muslim would feel if their son-daughter married outside the faith? Some would dishonour her, some would not mind. All people are free to speak in Canada, as long as its not hate. You have the same right as I as a christian. To be frank with you, isnt it fair to say natives enjoy many advantages that other canadians dont have....ie, GST

Dear Hollingsworth, You believe the gas chambers to have been a "complete hoax." Okay, so what exactly happened to the 1.5 million prisoners who went in and did not come out of Auschwitz? Were they transported to another planet? Yad Vashem has now catalogued 3 million of the 6 million individual names of Jews who "mysteriously vanished" from the face of the earth during World War 2. Are they on the planet Neptune? You are a deranged individual.

I have never come across a Jewish or Israeli denial of the Turkish massacre of the Armenians. Care to share your sources?

El Birawi-- I agree Haaretz's has it all! There's a mix of everything here-- which is the way it should be. I am glad you are back! I missed your imput! Keep the punches coming! Your truth is sobering! Thanks a lot, Dutch

Why not a proud American name.Don't you know any? Maybe it reflects the level of truth in your posting.

Those Austrians sound ok. I would also suggest the "Innate Stupidity Law", which would allow some of your more moronic and deliberate anti-semetic posters here to be put in prison for their abuse of intellect and reason. Hopefully also without any computer access for a long time.

"They do more to make the local populations in the countries that they have been enacted feel good.." Jews are still living in diaspora. G*d gave you a brain.

why review ? your posts are always anti-Israel

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-11.htm

[see link, maybe google-translator can help you]. Part (3) is about the lying about acts that were committed under the NS-regime. A very special crime. "Political propaganda", your examples, can only be punished if the person ADDS a call for violent actions against another group. [part (1) and (2). If the lie is that abnormal that it can seed irrational hate, the lie can be banned. Exapmle. One person said in public: "Foreigners are social parasites" = Fine 1500€ for violation other citizens rigths. I am living very well under that law and if I look back in the last 60 years of germany and austria I can not find things like "holocaust", or "war", or "killing of homosexuals, disabled persons, sinti and political opponents" anymore. And you must understand that this is the sense of it: The responsibility for the shoa lives in the laws of germany today. "Never again" ist the main principle of the laws. Never again destroy basic human rigths and laws or destroy the laws about to behave as state and as individual. If someone lies: "The fundament of the laws in germany is a lie.", he is obviously against the laws and my individual rigths, the rigths of all of us. This behaviour is against the law. The rigth "freedom of speech" ends at this point. Link: http://lawww.de/Library/stgb/130.htm

Irish Sensation, You are correct the Mayor of Bethlehem Dr. Victor Batarseh has attributes Israeli policies for the deteriorating influence on the ancient city. He said the city is imprisoned by the Israeli wall and settlements: "The wall which is encircling Bethlehem urban areas and grabbing the city`s hills and farms is an extremely dangerous development ... illegal settlements around the city are fast expanding at great cost to the life and livelihood". During the last four years, the tightened security around the city has had a devastating effect upon tourism -- which has dropped from nearly 92,000 visitors in 2000 to a mere 7, 249 visitors in 2004. This has also impacted the local population as 9.3 per cent of the Christian population of Bethlehem have emigrated and shops and restaurants and commercial outlets have shrunk and now Bethlehem`s economy is threatened. ( OpenBethlehem@bethlehem.edu) Thus the Mayor has launched an awareness plan called Open Bethlehem Initiative (see website above) to call the world`s attention to the many pressing issues facing Bethlehem today and he has issued a special plea to Israelis to display a sense of goodwill to allow Bethlehem to be an opened city so that the birthplace of Christianity is preserved and enjoyed by all! Dutch

your great successes.are you for real man.

Do these laws apply to holocaust denials of the slaughter of Armenians by the Turks? If so, we are guilty .....

--for religious observences,there has to be some sort of defence.Especially as the Arab population is increasing so rapidly in Europe and are starting their own attacks against Jews.Of course it has not stopped with Jews but they get special attention. Not even Hitler and Goebells said some of the things the Arab media are saying now.

As for threats and intimidation look no further than CAIR throwing its weight around.

"if that was a remark made by a powerfull aboriginal against a jew all hell would break out.it would be front page news and a thousand agencies demanding an apology with congress voting 1,ooo,ooo to 0 to sanction all reserves." - Here in US any racist remark will cause all hell to break out.

just because the jews say they want peace does not make it right.yes the goverment of the same country that made canada canada also made isreal, isreal(belfour)i just feel shunned when i read that a jew cant marry one of us that alone seperates us forever.is my son not good enough to marry a jewish woman is he less then them.dearchild wrote a story that compared our pain with the palos,right or wrong that should be left to debate.but the fact the asper family refused to anounce her thoughts he took it from print.that is the owner of 60% of are press in canada.as long as dearchild towes the asper line we are free to speak and only then.i ask who are we if we are not equal.is that gods intention.

Jeff, I think it hasn't sunk into you either that Israel is an artificially created piece of real estate. It didn't exist before 1947 when the Zionists talked the world into making a special decree to create it, Then you and others have the audacity to turn around and say the two UN Resolutions that created Israel (UNGAR 181 &194) are nonbinding and unenforceable. Well, then on what legitimacy does Israel rest -- if not on these two Resolutions? Thus, it follows-how can you and others talk about Israel's absolute right to exist or absolute right to anything for that matter? It seem to me Israel's failure to act in a legal manner has left it in an illegitimate state. And all its policies aganst the Palestinian people are illegitimate too: the demolishing of Palestinian homes; the confiscation of Palestinian land, the occupation of Palestinian land; arbitrary arrests of Palestinians; and the targeted killing of Palestinians. So much for Sharon's desire to mark Israel's borders and to create facts on the ground for a final status agreement. It all seems to look like a great big falsehood to me. Dutch

i know they obsess me, irish you can have my seat at the table, just take some notes so i can review what went on.

"Why can`t those Jews in exile recall the exact land their ancestors lived in or exact name of the village, while every single Palestinian refugee can? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL" - Take a wild guess... And I will try to find names of Roman centurions who evicted my forefarthers from their land. Do you remember exact location in Ireland where your ansestors lived 2000 years ago? Can you ask your Palestinian friends if they remember from what Arab countries their ancestors came attracted by economical development brought in by Jewish immigrants?

I don't think as Jews we need to concern oursleves with the existance or lack of existance of these laws. They do more to make the local populations in the countries that they have been enacted feel good and no have no material impact on actual anti-semitism. Is it better to have an enemy that states that it wants to destroy you or one that says he wants to be friends but actually wants to destroy you? A bit of sunshine brings more clarity than any such laws.

I never asked you to love the jews. IF you love the'palestinians, that is your right. However, you need to do some historical research because this conflict is easy to blame Israel as they are the stronger power. Israel didnt start this conflict,,,the palestinian arabs did....in 1948.... 650,000 jews were attacked by 250 million arabs. Once again in 1956, 1967, 1973, and countless fedayeen raids. Furthermore it was the arabs who consistantly denied the right for Israel to exist. In 1967 the arabs stance was no peace, no recognition and no negotiation with Israel. Just because the palestinian arabs say they want peace, doesnt mean they do. I feel sorry for them as they have been used by arab governments in their attempt to destroy Israel. The native people have had their share of misery as well. The Canadian government is trying to resolve different issues. The natives DO have reasons to be angry with the average Canadian. Hopefully, more and more native people will have all their rights restored. The native people deserve nothing less !

DEAR KJJ, I suggest you may change your name to KKK this will suit you more, all what you do is accusing people of antisemitism, wrong because you harm jews more than anybody else

"Bruce should read the papers here in Florida. Any news that might give the average American a true picture, not only of what is happening in Israel/Palestine but of what is happening here in the USA regarding Israeli-American relations, is either suppressed completely or else is edited to the point that anything detrimental to Israel or Jews in general is completely lacking." - I partially agree with you. It is a culture of political correctness in USA. In NJ as well as FL you can't find any newspaper critical of any ethnic/religious group. I never seen anything critical about African-Americans, Hispanic, Asians or any other group. I never seen here any anti-muslim sentiments in newspapers. Islam is always called a "Religion of peace" etc.

i have it on good athourity that nathan was not at Masada. You keep on wishing people well Irish, that is the way to defeat the forces of evil(nathan).those who try to shout you down will find me looking at them when they reach the pearly gates, and i keep all emails. The father says love all as one and one as all, peace be on you merry xmas to.

your just another obnoxious anti semite using the Palestinians `suffering`` as an outlet for your ingrained hatreds....You could care less for them...its the Jews that obsess you.... http://www.bluestarpr.com/docs/gay.pdf

thanks for telling me how to feel,maybe that is why when we wright such a thing in canada the asper family takes it from print.but who said the media was fair.so im to believe the god of the jews are favored over the arabs because of scripture written by jews is this right. in my eyes there both wrong and it drags the world into it.my sons mother was strapped and ridiculed if she did not except the christin way in a school she was kidnapped and placed in.that is why my view on religion is skewed.in this war arabs against jews why am i to follow the jews?why is that again, surely not on righteousness.as far back as i can rember ive been told the jews are gods special people,and they are the first to say it,no wonder we feel like we got kicked in the teeth and dan snyder can call his football team the redskins.and wasingtons most powerfull lobbiest(jewish)can call us neanderthals and trogolites and there is not even a peep from the press.because we dont count.if that was a remark made by a powerfull aboriginal against a jew all hell would break out.it would be front page news and a thousand agencies demanding an apology with congress voting 1,ooo,ooo to 0 to sanction all reserves.

Bruce states: "- I don`t feel this way. US media is very politically correct and does not want to offend anybody. I think your understanding of what is meaning of "critical to Israel" is just denying Israely existence. But you can`t find any articals denying existence of any of the Arab states including Arab Palestine either." Bruce should read the papers here in Florida. Any news that might give the average American a true picture, not only of what is happening in Israel/Palestine but of what is happening here in the USA regarding Israeli-American relations, is either suppressed completely or else is edited to the point that anything detrimental to Israel or Jews in general is completely lacking. And the papers around me seem to print only letters from readers that expound the standard Zionist mythology. When I have to read the online Israeli newspapers to find out what is going on in my own country, then something is wrong with the so-called "free" American news media. But then I have long maintained that there is really no real difference between a state-controlled news media that CANNOT tell the truth and a supposedly free news media that WILL NOT tell the truth. They both are objects of scorn and contempt.

I agree that crimes should never be denied but prosecuted, but this should happen to all criminals wether they were Nazi, Israelis or Palestinians. It is Israeli officials who are against to be prosecuted for the crimes that they have committed against pals, PM included."afraid to go to UK". Denial of the crimes against pals in all forms should be regareded as a crime, just have a look how many families were broken, kids killed, lands confiscated....etc etc

Why can't those Jews in exile recall the exact land their ancestors lived in or exact name of the village, while every single Palestinian refugee can? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Fights broke up way before the British controlled Palestine. You see during the last years of the Ottoman Rule, the Ottomans were receiving financial rewards from the Jews. Hence, that's why Palestinian newspapers like Filastin, al-Karmil were closed in 1908 because the Jews didn't like the fact that the Palestinian papers were warning their people they are about to be displaced due to Zionism. The ottomans under pressure from the jews shut down those papers. When the Palestinians lands were stripped from them by the Ottomans under the mullet system, those lands went to migrating Jews and those farmers who cultivated that land because dispossessed. This caused the conflict, long before the Brits deceived the Arabs. No matter what, all those who decide to only believe Israel was a victim, blah blah blah, too bad. I'm not going anywhere. This whole post can be against me, but I'm here for the duration and I shall express my facts too. PEACE

"Something that no US newspapers ever dare to do. Many newspapers lost advertizing space becasue they made interviews critical to Israel or published articles deems critical of Israel." - I don't feel this way. US media is very politically correct and does not want to offend anybody. I think your understanding of what is meaning of "critical to Israel" is just denying Israely existence. But you can't find any articals denying existence of any of the Arab states including Arab Palestine either.

Howdy Kim; Although I'm not an anti-Israeli, I'll answer your question for them. By denying the Holocaust, the Nazis and the Islamofascists can be perceived by the younger generation who don't know much about it as being "not so bad" and perhaps as even being "right". It helps to justify terrorism as a legitimate means to obtain political goals since it can then be viewed as "valid resistance" or "freedom fighting". The younger generation does not watch the History Channel and are susceptible to false ideas.

That's why Israel has banned Atallah Hanna from being lead Patriarch in JERUSALEM, that's why numerous churches in 1948 were destroyed by the Haganah, Stern Groups, etc. That's why Israeli bullets kill indiscriminately Palestinian Christians and Muslims. That's why the Francisan Monks in Bethelehem blamed the IDF for the seige in Bethlehem in 2002 by the Church of the Nativity. That's why every single Palestinian Christian I talked to when I visited last year, stated the diaspora is because Israel is squeezing the life out of the area Christ was born. And you're wrong to blame it on Muslims, because Palestine unlike most other Arab countries has cohesions b/n Christians and Muslims. TRY AGAIN ENLIGHTENED! Not like Israel where all are the same faith, yet Ashkenazi discriminate against Sephardic.

Shalom means peace in Hebrew. That makes me an anti-semite for wishing it upon people? You need to get rid of the MASADA COMPLEX quick bro! Peace

Nathan the "lord" has sent me here to stick my finger in the eye of those who think no one but them are right. Didnt you get the memo? it does my heart good to know that i have got under your skin. I will continue to stick my finger in your eye while you continue to stick your foot in your mouth. fairs fair and we all want to be fair. I think that if you have taken the time to read my posts then i am getting to you. so hold tight the "left hand of god" is upon you. and i dont get tired,upset, or even angry at fools, i must teach them/you the ways of peace and understanding. When my work with the dust bunnies is done i will turn my full attention to you, the lord said "Abraham slay me a son". i intend to slay you with words of peace and love, fore i do love my fellow man, even you nathan; my son and i would not want you to appear before the maker unprepared for the judgement he hath in store for you.

There is no such thing as denial of Palestinian suffering. The question is why you are still suffering? Israel did not start the war of independence in 1948. Jews did not threaten to push Arabs to the sea. Arab armies call Palestinians to leave their homes to let them clean the land from Jews for them. Arab countries put refugees into camps etc. Do you need more facts? So the question is not Palestinian suffering per se but who should pay for that?

im afraid when you grow up in a culture of hate, nothing good comes out of it. Thats not racism, its fact ! Are you aware of the fact that they stone gays to death ?

"I have asked why people may want to deny Holocaust. No anti-Israel has replied to me." - No wonder that those people deny Holocaust. Otherwise they must admit that Theodor Herzl was 100% right and there is no way around creation of Jewish State. If Israel was created 15 years earlier there was no Holocaust. Logically anti-Zionism and Holocaust admission are mutually exclusive.

where shall we begin ? All of his posts are distortions or outright lies.

Howdy Kim; It is not necessary to have laws against Holocaust denial in order to sue the bastards. It all depends on what the purpose of the Holocaust denial is for. If it is being used to slander someone or to incite violence, then they can be sued on those grounds. The courts in the West have usually granted judicial notice that the Holocaust is a fact and any defendant who bases his case on the contrary is going to lose. However, you can't stop someone who is not firing on all eight cylinders from going out on the street corner and saying that they don't believe in the gas chambers, the ovens, and the Nazi's own records of how many Jews, Gypsies, Socialists, Communists, homosexuals, and mentally retarded people were "exterminated". If that's all they say, then who's going to believe them? And if they make the mistake of saying more than that like trying to justify the agenda of a neo-Nazi group, then you can sue.

although there is a big difference in the brutality and size of injustice that jews were subject too, but palestinians suffered and suffer alot too. I wish those who do not agree with Andy could speak of facts rather than personally offending him.

Dear Editors I don't know who operates this talkback or is it an automated formula.Or a person with a grudge? Look,I do not crave for popularity or am bothered at all to have people's responses.That's not the reason at all I assure you. However,what I do object strongly is that when you vouchsafe me the privillege and put one or two of my posts out,it is always at the end of the page! Why is that I wonder? If you do not want,or intend not to put one of mine out just DON'T PERIOD. Much better with honesty then being devious. Thank You S

all people should have a homeland. There have always been palestinian jews and arabs. Jordan is for the west bank arabs, Egypt is for the Gazans and Israel is for the jews. There was never a state called palestine and we dont need another muslim-arab country killing gays and honour killings. salaam-shalom

"So you mean you could tell Ariel Sharon, Shimon Peres, Yitzhak Rabin, David Ben Gurion were Jews who look like the ancient Hebrews, i.e. dark skin, dark hair? They`d pass for a Polishmen, Irishmen, etc before anything." - They are desendants of the ancient Hebrews and they don't look like Poles, Irishmen etc. Jewish communities in Europe track their history from the very beginning of the expulsion from Israel.

Israel/Pal Arab conflict is simply a land conflict between jew and arab....both of whom have equal rights to claim ownership of the land. In recorded history, the holocaust of the jews serves to define evil. Nothing can even be imagined that is worse. Savagery, butchery, cruelty, ignorance apply to all vile events in human history from Rwanda to slavery .....including obviously the holocaust... but nothing can come close to the sheer evil of the project managed nazi mass murder of the jews.

Hello JonO Precisely what I pointed out in a post that dear old Ha'aretz didn't put out! I said what is the purpose of these posts which has nothing to do with article in question? The majority of posters are only here to banter and write and denigrate Israel. What a good free ride they have don't they? Absolutely ridiculous. S

"The difference is though the casaulties inflicted upon the innocent Palestinian civilians is way larger than that inflicted upon the Israelis." That is absolute garbage - a shameful comment that would be laughable if the subject were not so serious. Certainly, more Palestinians have died in the current intifada than Israelis but the majority of the Palestinian casualites were not "innocents". You can't call Palestinian fighters killed in attacks on civilians (and including suicide bombers) "innocent". Who do you blame for the casualties when Palestinians decide to fire from inside crowded civilain areas and thereby deliberately put their own people - many of them women and children in mortal danger? On the other hand, the majority of Israeli casualties are innocent targets of terrorist agression. Not bystanders but real targets. In the context of this conflict since you raised Sabra and Shatilla, where in truth Arabs murdered Arabs, you will need to add to the list of casualties caused by the Palestinians and their allies - the thousands upon thousands of fellow Arabs killed by the PLO in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Tunisia as well as inside the Palestinian territories. Further in the context of this discussion you need to look at the historical links between the Nazis and the Palestinian leadership of the 30's and '40s and you also need to examine the Nazilike charters of the Palestinan terror groups that you so willingly support. And then Mr. Irishman, perhaps you need to look no further than to where some of your own people's sympathies lay during WW2 when Hitler was carrying out his nasty policies.

We can't sue them for all but we can sue them for falsifying history. Make lie illegal, make expression of opinion free!

Thats right nathan, i told the lady that she could donate her tax dollars to anyone she felt deserves them. her comment about poverty in the third world and africa particular that would scare the life out of me was the point in question. i informed her that i had seen enough not only poverty she cannot imagine but death murder and torture up close and personal that would last me a life time. Being pompus makes you happy being alive makes me so.

...."history an agreed upon set of myths."

During the six years of the Holocaust 6 million Jews perished at the hands of the bloodthirsty Nazi butchers. That's 1 million for every year, eighty-three thousand for every month, nineteen thousand a week and nearly three thousand a day. By way of comparison, how many innocent Palestinians have died over the five years of the intifida? If you exclude the fighters, the suicide bombers, the workplace "accidents", and the collaborators killed by their own the figure is relatively insignificant - and most of these are innocents placed in harm's way by their own people - the Palestinian militants who must bear the responsibility for their deaths. Each innocent life is important and its loss should not be lightly dismissed but where is the sense of proportion? Can anyone nominate one year in the past six decades when there was a decline in the Palestinian population? Can you find me any evidence of ethnic cleansing in the region (other than in the Hamas Charter and those of other Palestinian terror groups which are dedicated to the ethnic cleansing of Jews)? So can someone tell me about the alleged ethnic cleansing of Palestinians? Where is the evidence that the situation of the Palestinians is even remotely comparable with the Jews in the Holocaust? And would not their situation improve if their leaders had the courage to honour the commitments they gave to end their own terror? No, its sick individuals like those who make light of the horrors of the Holocaust by bringing up the Palestinians in the same breath who are in truth denying the Holocaust. They can fight their battles for the Palestinian cause if they like but for the sake of those who died at the hands of the brutal Nazi monsters, it is really appropriate for holocaust deniers be exposed then arrested and tried along with filthy scum like David Irving!

Please dont compare yourself to ''palestinians' Native people in Canada-usa are decent people. You do a diservice to yourselves when you compare to these murderers. Compare yourselves to the blacks in south Afica. They are decent and have achieved what they deserve. www.shoebat.com

thanks for screening my heartfelt message.it speaks volumes to what i thought

I have asked why people may want to deny Holocaust. No anti-Israel has replied to me.

As someone who know US media very well, and have been following freedom of speech, when it comes to Jews, Israel, Zionism and any thing that has to do with Jews, Haaretz is the forum for free expression. Something that no US newspapers ever dare to do. Many newspapers lost advertizing space becasue they made interviews critical to Israel or published articles deems critical of Israel. When it comes to Israel, Palestine, Free of Speech, Haaretz is the address. Thank you Haaretz.

What's your opinion about the fatwas against Rushdie and Oriana Fallaci?

personaly i dont look for "markers" in other peoples speech/words. I try to listen and understand what hey are saying. To perhaps learn from them, or not but looking for reasons not to listen seems pointless on a discussion board. I posted the things i look for in an anti semite it doesnt seem to have come up though.

Let's go to Northern Ireland and impose "Jewish rule".

All those people use to have a dark skin and dark hair before they changed hair color to grey. As you look at Ariel Sharon's nose you definitely can't confuse him with Polishmen, Irishmen etc. but you can confuse him with Arab very easy.

Irish-Americans used to fund the Northern Irish Aid Committee, which supplied weapons to the IRA. This, despite the fact that the UK was a US ally. NORAID was protected by US politicians in thrall to Irish-American political machines. Eventually, political power shifted away from the states that were dominated by the Kennedy machine, the Daley machine, and etc. Then the FBI cracked down. The political culture of Ireland is even worse, less public-spirited and more venal, than the political culture of Chicago and Boston---pale imitations. However, I doubt that Irish Sensatioin is Irish at all. This kind of Irishness belongs to the Father Coughlin era---70 years past.

" Something instigated this conflict, and that was Herzl`s ideology to create a Jewish homeland," - Irish Sensation Wrong. After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and the occupation of Palestine by the British, a young Palestinian nationalist became the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. His name was Mohammad Amin al-Husayni. He was alsos head of the Supreme Muslim Council which the British created. The British ploy was exactly the same as they used in India, or for that matter Ireland. To manage a degree of religious strife and thus divide and rule. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was the man who turned peace into civil strife in Palestine. He did it for political gain.

"So if anyone wishes to deny the Holocaust, let him - and then sue his ass off!" Exactly. But you can only sue them if there are laws against Holocaust denial.

"I believe them to be a complete hoax and I defy anyone to supply a shred of credible evidence for their existence in any German concentration camp, including Auschwitz/Birkenau." - hollingsworth morris I guess you would describe the remains of the physical structures, as well as the statements of inmates and guards as "incredible". Nor would survinging plans for the construction be 'credible". Heck, I bet you think Zykon was just a "gift" for the Jews. Now run along and sing Chad Mittchel's "I am not a Nazi Polka"

You said that you have to let people make choices. I say that not everything that people choose to do is legitimate, such as murder, robbery, etc. So you now say this is not the topic. Didn't you base your argument on free choice?

By your logic, the anti-Semitic propaganda in the Nazi Germany which prepared the field for the Holocaust was legitimate free speech. Calling somebody a terrorist doesn't make him a terrorist, but if to call a terrorist a terrorist doesn't make him a non-terrorist. Somebody who indiscriminatly murder people with the intention of terrorizing a population is a terrorist. You are mixing things. I don't support suppresion of freedom of speech, the same as I don't support that freedom of movement should be banned. But all the rights have to have limits, which are where one attempts against the rights of others. If somebody commits a crime, he has to be left without freedom of movement because he has to be enjailed. Either I don't want you are banned from listening music at home, but if you bother your neighbors, it has to be prevented. You don't need to bother to call me fascist. It has no effect on me, because I know full well I am not and also know the game.

alot of native north americans feel for the paletinians we share the same kind of pain.our reserves remind us of palestine.

The other problem that I have is the statistics that keep getting tossed around. The fact that the Jewish population made up 3-4% percent of the population at the time of Herzl can be misleading. First I have seen the numbers as high as 10%. Second, at the time Palestine included Jordan (territorially 77% of mandate Palestine) - so how does that affect the numbers? I have also seen stats indicating that there has always been a Jewish majority in Jerusalem - how do you reconcile this with the Palestinian demand for a capital in Jerusalem considering they had such a numerous advantage in the rest of palestine but never in Jerusalem? To address the massacre issues of Sabra and Shatilla and Der yassin - once again my problem is that you always seem to take one side, almost blindly. In this respect you are just as bad as the fanatics who propose removal of the palestinians. Sabra & Shatilla - Sharon was found indirectly responsible because he should have anticipated what would have happened. I don't think anyone other than Sharon will know why he did not. Anybody can say what they wish, but most people will never truly know. I'm sorry, but pure speculation is not good enough for me.. Deir Yassin - one side says massacre, the other side says no massacre but they let the myth live to use as tool during war time. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle. I am more inclined to believe the truth lies more toward the latter based on several accounts that I have read, but there were likely some unsavoury acts performed. How about Jenin? By all accounts was NOT a massacre even though there were tons of accusations levelled. It seems to be an (effective) strategy currently being used by the Palestinians. Constantly accuse Israel even if the allegations are false. Those that stick great - those that turn out to be false - no matter the damage is already done. I think I am clearly pro-Israel... the day the Palestinians renounce their suicide bombers and terrorists is the day I will support them. Until then, I think we will see the same too and fro.

support for israel is not as strong as ever. Many americans believe we are fighting and dieing in iraq for israel,not terror, you may be one of those who only talks to people like yourself but go to any local bar,or gathering of non jews were people are speaking their minds openly. When they are certain no jew is around israel is not a friendly subject.Most people dont take me for a jew and speak openly about their feelings on this. They hate israel and everytime a pal child or woman is killed the level of hate rises. I hear the israelis "have it coming" much more now than ever when suicide bombers kill israeli woman and children,ie what else can the arabs do? These same people hate the arabs as well but that is mainly because of the color of their skin and their difference in culture. Get out and away from your select group of friends and listen to the world of views out there.

when we read american and canaidian text books we are told the europeans came and traded with the savages.not that the army was sent to wipe us out.but hey thats what the textbooks say.we are taught more about the jews loss then our own we have no congressman and our land which we can call our own are called reserves.but we dont here anything about that, but we sure here the plight of the jews.do you think this is fare do you think general custer was a hero do you think manhattan belongs to bloomberg and his group.but like i say its your world we just live in it. the natives of canada and america as two jewish lobbiest pointed out are nothing but neanderthals and trogolites.it seems its always about you and your rights the adl is just an offshoot to aipac.let me say the holocaust disgusts me. but now it seems you are the only recognised people to have something wrong done to you,i think it is exploited for personal gain.you have your museums around the world. we had whole tribes wiped right out to the last family but hey why speak about that.i used to think you were are friends, but that has gone i see you only for isreal and youselves .i find your policies racist to the core i know of not one jew married to a treaty american or canaidian so then how am i to know you. i dont.you say its about love, respect and peace,thats crap its about power of religion and money nothing else.

The Palestinians are those people who have a unique social and cultural and geographical status. They are a blend of people, but mainly Canaanites, ancient Israelites with a spice of Roman Byzantian and Arab flavors. They are more Jewish as a Nation than the Jewish (As in a religion) converts of Ethiopia, Khazar and many other places of the world. You can deny that as much as you want, but that will not alter the GENETIC Y CHROMOSOM EVIDENCE, and the continuous maintenance of the villages mentioned in the Bible few thousand years ago which were all along inhabitted by the Palestinians since times immoral. Now, nobody could deny physical facts neither about the Holocaust, nor about the essentially Jewishness of the Palestinians who were made refugees by ZIONISM. B MICHAELS

Enlightend The man keeps on dreaming. It is the same repetitions everytime. I have pointed this not to him but to many others who are under the missaprehention that there are very many Christian Arabs in Nazareth or Bethlehem. Whishing them merry christmas was he? what a joke that is for sure. The fact that they left in droves and are mainly living contented and secure lives in Israel doesn't seem to get it into their thick heads. Nevermind leaving, they were subjugated, persecuted to the extent that their lives were unblievably so harsh they were even attacked and their homes burnt down. This so called irish-will (not dignify it) by using uppercase for his title--has an agenda for sure. I have a good indication what it really is.He knows, OH YES HE DOES! Must go now Bye S

what is an anti-semite? I would say someone who hates jewish people because they are jewish, Not someone who wants fairness and justice for all sides. someone who makes it their lifes work to "get" them jews. someone who would not allow their son/daughter to marry or associate with jews nor would associate with jews themselves. someone who could kill a jew with the same level of compassion that they would show for a fly. someone who denies that the holocaust ever happened. someone who hates jews for breathing let alone living someone who smiles when they think of the holocaust. someone that would rather see jews burn in hell before they would see them live in peace. Israel is a piece of land not a human being and you cannot hate a piece of land. well you could but thats a matter for men like nathan. Not someone who takes the side of Palastine/arabs when everyone else takes the side of the jews, what good is a one sided discussion. Is what you want a readers board where we all pat ourselves on the back for being jewish, never looking for or talking about the things that we as jews may or may not be doing wrong or right. My heritage is secure enough that i can listen to someone point out what they see as a problem or mistake that my people may be making. They dont have to be jewish or live in greater israel to do this, they just need to speak from the heart, without insults or agenda. The open disscussion board idea is for free/not so free peoples of the world to speak to one another. I know that there are several other points that would lead one to believe somone was anti semetic but im sure you get the idea. Now i know several dust bunnies that i am sure are anti-semites, i will keep you posted on this.

Hey you imitator of Irishness! If I have said it once I'll say it again. It is not as you say,it is the other way arround, and get used to it. The PLO arabs are a nonetity nothing more. They have not or are ever to likely do anything worthy of mention here or anywhere else get it mister. Try as hard as you can it will not do you any good whatsoever.Just wasting your breath pure and simple. And leave Bruce alone,his is a good post unlike your misguided ones. have a nightmare S

IRISH MY EYE! YOU ARE NO MORE IRISH THAN THE MAN IN THE MOON. AS FAR AS SAYING CHRIST'S SEED WILL REMAIN I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT.AFTER ALL WHO WAS JESUS HA? JUST A JEW AND IT WOULD BE WISE TO REMEMBER THAT! AND STOP THE OBFUSCATION. THERE WILL NEVER BE A RIGHT OF RETURN, NEVER! SO, GET THEE TO HELL AND NOT BACK, WE DON'T NEED OR WANT YOU EVER! S

Which reminds me... what does any of this actually have to do with the topic of the article? Is it impossible for people like Irish Sensation and Andy Murray to let one topic go with talking about the "grave injustices" and "genocide" perpetrated against the Palestinian people? See post 17.

Ezreal, which book by Lipstadt are you referring to?

Michael Please stop right there on the subject of the so-called PALS Okay? You put me off about what I was going to say. I WILL NEVERTHELESS ONCE AND FOR ALL SAY: THE REAL PALESTINIANS ARE THE JEWS,THE REST ARE JUST ARABS PURE AND SIMPLE. Having said that I will now put my point. I say freedom of speach? yes! let them whoever it may be. Then we will know where we stand. By all means let them speak, but never give them the opportunity or freedom to publish, and if they do just SUE THEM FOR ALL THE ARE WORTH AND BLEED THEM DRY! NO PROFIT,NO GAIN. Once they are down in the bottom of poverty ladder they will soon die in squallor and no one will mourn them and can go into oblivion. Whether you approve or no,not my problem. And don't go arround with Salman Rushdi,or the Irish famine and the Brits' against the latter. The British are not a good example to begin with,what's more they never denied the problems with Ireland. They do not talk about the "concentration camps against the Afrikaans at the time. Also the problems they caused during the days of the great Empire. India,South Afrika,and many other places they occupied.They are now reaping the result of their infractions. S

Bethlehem? What insight, a merry Xmas for whom? The Christians are almost all gone, fled not from the Jews but from the Muslim gangs. Yes, Jesus the Jew will be happy to celebrate Xmas.

Yes, both sides have wronged each other repeatedly, but the main thing it boils down to is what and who started this conflict? After all the 3-4 percent Jewish population in Palestine before Theodore Herzl initiated Political Zionism lived pretty peaceful lives and kept to theirselves. The Arabs in Palestine weren't resentful of the Jews, nor did they decide to wake up one morning and just kill Jews. Something instigated this conflict, and that was Herzl's ideology to create a Jewish homeland, not referring to the indegenious Arab population and their well-being and the effect it would have on their lives. Remember, it was to remove the penniless population and the barbaric Arabs would enjoy living under Jewish rule. This is the cause of the conflict. The British just made things 10 times worse after deceiving the Arabs who had fought the Turks for Britain in exchange for independence. Therefore JonO, the colonial endeavor known as Zionism started this conflict. Recall, the Jews were flocking to Arabs lands because of persecution in Europe. Yes, I agree what's done is done, let's move forward, however the grievances and victimization of a people has never been addressed, this is why the Palestinians refuse to give up on anything, until Israel can join the human race and admit yes we messed up. I believe in the 2 state solution, both people living in peace. Any normal human would. It's just noteworthy to mention the cause of the conflict because that's what this all boils down to. PEACE

My family fled from Syria with nothing but their clothes on their backs. My Zionism comes from the Bible. Where is my homeland according to you? Syria is out of the question, any suggestions?

So you mean you could tell Ariel Sharon, Shimon Peres, Yitzhak Rabin, David Ben Gurion were Jews who look like the ancient Hebrews, i.e. dark skin, dark hair? They'd pass for a Polishmen, Irishmen, etc before anything.

you need to clean your own house first. Contrary to what you write, Israel has made increadible progress in many areas. Lets start with negotiating with no less than 12 muslim-arab countries. Israel aint going anywhere. Its the ¨¨palestinians¨¨ who are losing out. Support for Israel is as strong as ever in North america.

Nathan, the Irish themselves have been involved in brutal massacres also. Unlike you, I as an Irishman can admit to the disgusting behaviors committed by Irish. The Israelis in here can't. It takes a true human being to admit their faults. However, Ireland like Palestine, India, South Africa, etc was colonized by foreigners. In reference to the police, why the resentfulness? Had a bad couple run ins with the law? I take it when you're a victim of a crime, you're on the cell phone dialing 911 pronto requesting assistance. Police and military risk their lives so people like YOU can enjoy a safe livelihood. SHAME ON YOU! I never ever placed a racial taint on all Jews as you have done with Irish, i.e. corrupt policeman. At least us Irishmen serve our country, THE U.S.A. We're not playing politics and being experts on warfare yet never serving in the military or law enforcement. Keep your racism to yourself, because Lord knows the stereotypes that people of Jewish decent have accumulated. However the difference is that THIS GENTILE follows Christ who taught me to turn over to the other cheek, and ask the Lord for forgiveness for your opposition. P.S. While I'm very proud of my Irish heritage, I'm an American first and my loyalties are with the U.S., unlike most Jews in the U.S. who are loyal to Israel 1st. Here comes the anti-semetism remarks soon lol. Sucks to be on the other foot eh? Keep your racist comments to yourself.

irish whatever complains about the security fence.what does he think of the belfast wall that divides protestant from catholic? our fence is prettier.

if occupation with checkposts is repugnant then obliterating the town of faluja and killing many is what?

"How in the world did the white skinned Jews from Europe receive such a label, when Arabs and Palestinians have more semetic features similar to the likes of Abraham and Christ." In the renaissance paintings Jesus always appeared as an Aryan, possibly Swedish. Quite similar to Bjorn of ?Abba? fame. No one knows Abrahams features as painting hadn?t been invented yet. DUH!!!!!!

The law regards "holocaust denial" is enacted for good reason in Europe where there are real ambitions amongst some sectors of the populace to relaunch nazism under a new brand. If you can dismiss or lessen the the "perceived" impact and horrors of the holocaust you remove one important impediment to its revival. Heres the view of Deborah Lipstadt. Who, along with her publishers "penguin books",were the defendants in a Holocaust denial libel trial in London in 2000. The historical writer David Irving sued them for participating in a conspiracy to ruin his career and destroy his academic legitimacy. Lipstadt, who teaches modern Jewish and Holocaust History at Emory University, Atlanta, claimed in her book that Irving knew the evidence about the Holocaust period but distorted it, until it coincided with his ideological leanings and political agenda: "Irving realized that a pre-condition for Nazism's resurrection was to strip and wash it of its worst elements." Lipstadt goes on to assert her own belief in freedom of expression. "As an American, I'm a staunch believer in free speech. I recognize, however, that the situation in Germany is different and that there might be room there for a law against Holocaust denial: but there is also a practical aspect to my general opposition to laws against Holocaust denial. When speech is restricted, it becomes "forbidden fruit" and more interesting to people. "It is one thing to state that a country allows free speech, as does the United States in its constitution. That gives deniers the right to say what they wish. But it does not obligate newspapers to print letters or columns by deniers. Some student newspapers misunderstood the First Amendment and assumed it obligated them to print this material. It does not." Furthermore Lipstadt agrees that criticism against Israel is as legitimate as that against any other country; but she stresses the difficulty of sharply defining proper boundaries: "What is not permitted," she concludes, "is false historical analysis and the use of immoral equivalencies. One cannot compare the 2002 Jenin battle to the Shoah. Such a comparison shows either ignorance of history or misguided intentions." Lipstadt sees this comparison as a new expression of denial. "When one speaks about Israeli soldiers as Nazis, that is a denial of what Israeli soldiers are and what the Nazis were. This is a misuse of history for political purposes. One may not like Israel, but that is different from lying about history in a court. Much current criticism of Israel is based on anti-Semitism and denial. Some of the exaggerated talk about Israeli power, Israeli strength and Israeli ability is very similar to what one has seen for decades in the writings of the Holocaust deniers and, before that, in those of the Nazis and other anti-Semites." It is these arguments for comparing Israelis and Zionists to Nazis which I have read regularly on these forums from several REGULAR contributors which are particularly dishonest and distasteful.

Dear Lary I was so upset on reading your story, like many others who had gone through that awful experience and the survivors. You know that it goes on through to the generations. I know this because my daughter in-law's mother is a survivor and she went through all the horrors and is now in Israel she never likes to talk about it--except once to say: Where was God then?even as I write this my eyes fill with tears. She said we prayed: "THE SHEMA YISRAEL" ALL THE TIME, AND NO ANSWER CAME.I DIDN'T PURSUE FURTHER,WHAT CAN ONE SAY WHO HAS NOT EXPERIENCED IT AND KNOW THE HORRIFING SCENES AND ITS CONSEQUENCES. One can see the obvious fact though.The way they bring up their children.While bringing them up as normally as they can there is an underlying fact which never leaves them I suppose. PROTECTION,PROTECTION in everyday type of things--like being ill,even if it is a rather small indisposition or whatever. This too has been transferred from mother to daughter,and daughter to her children.I sow it and can verify it. My Great Sympathy to You and Yours Lary S

"And as far as Ireland, you could learn from us. We have more peace here than Israel ever will see in ages" - Partially agree with you. Since nobody threatens to throw Irish into the sea or flood Ireland with non-Irish people making them a minority Northen Ireland have more chances for peace than Israel. But here comes a difference. Since cases are so different Israel can't learn anything from Ireland.

"The Palestinians went from being unknown refugees to having their plight exposed to the world and enjoy more world support." And the world can also thank the Palestinians for the increase in terrorism around the world. One of my biggest problems with the Palestinian "resistance" is that they continue to use terror even though they are now on the world's radar. Because of the world's reaction to the Palestinians, other resistance fighters around the world can now come to the conclusion that terrorism works. Simply blow up innocent civilians and most major countries will capitulate and accept your plight as valid. I'm sorry but the situation is much more complicated than your relatively simplistic one sided approach to everything (i.e. the reasons the Palestinians rejected the partition). The difference between your position (including people like Andy Murry) and many (but not all) of the pro-Israeli positions on this board is that you refuse to believe that there are two sides to this conflict. Most people in general I think realize that there are two sides that have been wronged and the question becomes how to achieve peace now. Your opinion that the Palestinians are the only victims in this conflict is not only incorrect but not does not produce any realistic options for peace. Other than spew your typical propaganda, I have not seen you propose a single plausible solution - only stir the pot for Israel's destruction under the guise of only being critical of Israeli policies. It's continually frustrating to read these posts because they offer nothing constructive and therefore are of no use. We can all sit here and point fingers until the entire regions is destroyed, but that won't do anybody any good, now will it?

"THE PENNILESS POPULATION" which would simply accept Jewish rule or leave." - What is Jewish rule anyway? Is it forced conversion to Judaism or total curcomcision or what? At least one that I know is to make honor killings illegal. Is it the one you mean?

Cheche Don't you think we have sufficent antisemites/Israel without Johanes to put his oar in for only a short time? I can bet my last pound that he is probably reading all of the posts and preparing rigorously his exposes when he will appear once again. Let him stay away for a while we can well do without his poison. S

Personally, I can't stand Holocaust deniers, but I am against a law prohibitng Holocaust denial. Freedom of speech means people should be allowed to say whatever they want - and then suffer the consequences if they have lied, slandered or defamed. So if anyone wishes to deny the Holocaust, let him - and then sue his ass off!

honest question, hadyn: how would you know an anti-semitic comment if you heard it? what identifying markers would you look for? what criteria do you use to determine if a statement is anti-semitic or not?

as is her right the lady informed us that she gives to charity.the discourteous haydn bites her head off.how dare she trump him in doing good?

The truth needs no laws to defend itself.

"when Arabs and Palestinians have more semetic features similar to the likes of Abraham and Christ. Hmm, makes ya think :)" - Do you have their photos? What the semitic features are? I was born in Russia and let me assure you that most Russian Jews have very distinct features. One can't confuse Jew with Russian but it is easy to confuse Jews with other mediterranian ethnic groups like Greeks or Italians.

A poster writes: "He (David Irving) is an ignorant bafoon,..." Oh, how many books have you written to worldwide acclaim, dear poster? David Irving was a darling of academia until he questioned your precious 'holocaust.' He never denied it, but simply questioned its dimensions. As for the 'gas chambers.' I believe them to be a complete hoax and I defy anyone to supply a shred of credible evidence for their existence in any German concentration camp, including Auschwitz/Birkenau.

"How in the world did the white skinned Jews from Europe receive such a label, when Arabs and Palestinians have more semetic features similar to the likes of Abraham and Christ." In the renaissance paintings Jesus always appeared as an Aryan, possibly Swedish. Quite similar to Bjorn of "Abba" fame. No one knows Abrahams features as painting hadnt been invented yet. DUH!!!!!!

"since Isreal`s colonialist practices are very outdated. Shalom, peace light!" - Israel has no colonies and never had one. Israel has some land disputes with neighbors but it is an adjoining real estate that can't be called colony.

Hi SDHD I wonder how old this Murray is? Where does he get his false informations I tend to wonder. The only information centre I can think of is: "The White Supremacists" web site, or another similar twisted version of it. Also, why is he so obsessed with OUR LOT? That is the question,why? I think that he probably enjoys the bantering that he produces, and to score some points, who the hell knows... S

Howdy Dutch; I have told you this before, but it doesn't seem to sink in. UNGARs (including UNGAR 181 & 194) and decisions by the International Court of Justice at the Hague are non-binding and unenforceable. Only UNSCRs which are passed under Article 7 of the UN Charter (and not those passed under Article 6) and some international treaties like the Law of the Sea and the Fourth Geneva Convention constitute international law. So far, Israel is not in violation of any UNSCR that pertains to her. This is because of a clause contained in UNSCR 242 and reaffirmed by UNSCR 338 (which Egypt and Jordan met, but which Syria and the PA have not) which calls for: Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force; The current international law regarding refugees is also contained in UNSCR 242 and "affirms the necessity" For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem; Notice that no distiction is made between Palestinian or Jewish refugees, Israel is not singled out as the sole party responsible for the "just settlement", and there is no "right of return". If you don't like it, then change the law, but trying to justify your position with obsolete UNGARs is worse than futile; it is deranged.

El-Birawi, Palestine never existed as a state. That's a fact, not an opinon or a simple statement. How can anyone deny something that never existed ? Palestinian Arabs do exist and no on denies they do exist. Whether their national identity became "Palestinian" only in 1967, that really doesn't matter in the present situation.

Hi Sullivan I think I'd heard about the Quarter in Jerusalem on the subject of the Armenians. Also thanks for the above site. Let me inform you Sully' that MY VERY BEST FRIENDS FAMILY WERE WIPED OUT BY THE TURKS AT THE TIME.So,I am quite informed. But although we may call it "Genocide" There is no comparison to the "HOLOCAUST" Never! Yes many died, BUT NOT MILLIONS.And in such systematic way! In every single country of the whole of Europe!they even thought about it in the ME.With the help of that (shitty mufti of Jerusalem)! But the end of war saved the day. By the way,my friend said: When Ataturk came to power he seems to have apologized for the crime and all is now history she said. I do not agree with her premise. History must be taught in all schools, read in books and must never be forgotten. That's what history is all about after all. S

"You people" is normally used by bigots/racists, buddy. There are no Germans that "we love to hate", other than the German neo-Nazis or bigots most German people themselves hate.

"And the Zionist lobbies here in the USA are working tirelessly to get my Congress to pass a law equating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism" - As far as I know antisemitism is not a crime in US. What is your problem with being antisemite? You can be if you want. What is the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism? You saing: I am not against this family I just want to destroy their house. And then you wondering why those people blame you for hating them. By the way Martin Luther King Jr. thought the same way.

"--if they do not like what they say. CAIR has an agenda,clearly enunciated,to convert the whole of the USA to Islam. How do they intend to enforce the recalcitrants?" -Krish Thank God you live in Australia - please stay there. We don't need people like you in this country. BTW, I also heard the sky is going to fall down tomorrow! lol

I don't remember branding you as an anti-semite or nazi but I do think you are an antisemite. You are saying that you don't hate jews. Indeed you are not calling our for extermination but you are calling for the distruction of jewish state. In other words you don't like the idea of Jews defending themselfs in a tiny strip of land along mediterranian coast. And you want to put Jews to the same position that was before creation of Israel, in other words make us dependent on grace of others. For two thousand years others made decisions for Jews. Look what you are saying. "Just because other refugees and displaced people from Greece, Armenia, etc left and never returned, it`s morally wrong. They too should be allowed back home. IT PISSES ISRAEL OFF, THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SETTING PRECEDENT IN REGARDS TO RIGHT OF RETURN HAPPEN TO BE THE PALESTINIANS." - It is relatively easy to push Turkey but what you are going to do with Russia regarding German refugees? Will you bring Indian/Pakistany refugees back? I don't think so. It is not Palestinians setting precedent - it is Arabs setting precedent of not accepting their brothers like everybody else in the world did including Israel. It may be pissing Israel off but it is going nowhere and prolongs suffering.

The law regards "holocaust denial" is enacted for good reason in Europe where there are real ambitions amongst some sectors of the populace to relaunch nazism under a new brand. If you can dismiss or lessen the the "perceived" impact and horrors of the holocaust you remove one important impediment to its revival. Heres the view of Deborah Lipstadt. Who, along with her publishers "penguin books",were the defendants in a Holocaust denial libel trial in London in 2000. The historical writer David Irving sued them for participating in a conspiracy to ruin his career and destroy his academic legitimacy. Lipstadt, who teaches modern Jewish and Holocaust History at Emory University, Atlanta, claimed in her book that Irving knew the evidence about the Holocaust period but distorted it, until it coincided with his ideological leanings and political agenda: "Irving realized that a pre-condition for Nazism's resurrection was to strip and wash it of its worst elements." Lipstadt goes on to assert her own belief in freedom of expression. "As an American, I'm a staunch believer in free speech. I recognize, however, that the situation in Germany is different and that there might be room there for a law against Holocaust denial: but there is also a practical aspect to my general opposition to laws against Holocaust denial. When speech is restricted, it becomes "forbidden fruit" and more interesting to people. "It is one thing to state that a country allows free speech, as does the United States in its constitution. That gives deniers the right to say what they wish. But it does not obligate newspapers to print letters or columns by deniers. Some student newspapers misunderstood the First Amendment and assumed it obligated them to print this material. It does not." Furthermore Lipstadt agrees that criticism against Israel is as legitimate as that against any other country; but she stresses the difficulty of sharply defining proper boundaries: "What is not permitted," she concludes, "is false historical analysis and the use of immoral equivalencies. One cannot compare the 2002 Jenin battle to the Shoah. Such a comparison shows either ignorance of history or misguided intentions." Lipstadt sees this comparison as a new expression of denial. "When one speaks about Israeli soldiers as Nazis, that is a denial of what Israeli soldiers are and what the Nazis were. This is a misuse of history for political purposes. One may not like Israel, but that is different from lying about history in a court. Much current criticism of Israel is based on anti-Semitism and denial. Some of the exaggerated talk about Israeli power, Israeli strength and Israeli ability is very similar to what one has seen for decades in the writings of the Holocaust deniers and, before that, in those of the Nazis and other anti-Semites." It is these arguments for comparing Israelis and Zionists to Nazis which I have read regularly on these forums from several REGULAR contributors which are particularly dishonest and distateseful.

One thing about the USA & Canada..but more so in the USA, freedom of speech and idea is sacrosanct. That is not to say the speaker will not be casigated for his or her views, but the views will be heard. Just look at all the anti-Jew hate sites on the internet.

Irish Sensation is proving to be a viscious `little` man...with some of the most obnoxious posts on here...Keep on posting and exposing yourself for what you are for all to see.....

There is a very good reason for the laws pertaining to holocaust denial. Now I have seen how this topic has brought out the anti-semites, most of them too scared to spew their mindless madness. Forgetting that this "Holocaust" was of jews for a moment. It is important to remember that after the second world war, most of Europes people woke to the fact that Nazism was a horrible mistake and left a disgusting mess. Ove fifty million people killed, some of Europe's most beautiful and significant cities laid to waste. Much of europe also came to appreciate that mass murder in the name of an ideology and biological cleansing had taken place. It simply is not in europe's interest to see this vile strain of brainless hate make its way back onto the world stage. Of course we Jews are scared to death of this ever taking place again. yes John, Jews will no longer walk quietly to the edge of pit. but it is important for the non-jews as well to remember that the Germans suffered as well under the Nazis. It is only right for the present day free world to clamp down on these lunatics, the holocaust deniers, who far to often are Nazi sympathizers. There is no place in the political arena or the media for an ideology that is so filled with hate and lies, as well as laws and systems of thought that are the anticendent of freedom itself. there is absolutely no reason for democracies to allow groups that support the demise of democracy to act freely. this is suicidal, and any cries of freedom of speech are baseless and cynical.

why should irish sensation hide his head in shame, he didnt plant the two bombs did he? the world needs another windbag like you like we need ceiling wax. you think way too much of your pompus words here, you are not going to influence anyones opinion nor change their minds with the useless drivel that falls from your mouth. what a brave soul you are hiding in europe while real israelis fight the long defeat back home.

jesus did not teach hatred.that is your thing. your taunting of the jews on this site with words like shalom after posting venom shows us your real face.

People Like Irish Sensation are not used to strong Jews, `` I still don`t understand this concept of being anti-semetic. `` he says... ...His dad taught him Jews should be weak,subserveient and on his knees...strong ones with one of the strongest armies in the world and the healthiest economy in the middle east with western levels of GDP and European style social programs , just does not fit into his vision of what Jews are all about... WELL GET OVER IT...WE ARE HERE TO STAY...AND WILL REMAIN STRONG !!!!!

irish sensation would have it that the jews were the new kids in the block in palestine. well if the irish had not committed atrocities against the jews like the pogrom in limerick in 1904 then more jews would have stayed in europe. the irish were great anti-semites.

the irish thought nothing of displacing native protestants in northern ireland. is this sensational hypocrisy?

their hatrd on this Jewish Zionist newspapers` website...Just as I predicted in post #17

yep.they the irish killed a mother of 9 young children because? wait for it.......... she gave a glass of water to a british soldier. they kidnapped and tortured her.the family knew nothing of her for many years.disappeared. then the irish were kind enough to inform the family she was dead.10 years later. irish sensation is that repugnant enough for you?

happens EVERY day here..... http://www.bluestarpr.com/docs/gay.pdf

ONLY...but all Jews in general...and since when are Jews ``uneducated``? All of Andy`s Doctor`s in Toronto are Jewish...and THIS sticks in his throat.....

Should the same limitation apply to Jews? If a Jew or others denies that 750 thousand Arabs were displaced during the war of independence in 1948 he is a liar and denyer. If he thinks that those 750 thousand Arabs belong to a distinct ethnic group it is a matter of his opinion and a good subject for discussion. This issue is very questionable and still not clear for both parties. Arab refugees is a historical fact as well as Jewish refugees from Arab countries. I am comfortable with imposing limitations on those who deny it. But what about their children? International law treats them as their birth country nationals. Should Arabs be treated a different way? By the way hate speeches are allowed by law so you are free to hate Jews and publish your view in Germany or Austria. What you are not allowed to do by law is to deny historical facts.

KJJ Obsessed he is in a very big way! What was the point in expanding his theory which may under different circumstances would be correct.The story here is the "HOLOCAUST"And he immediately changes tack and begins to include others. I would not wonder the he probably sow David Duke last night in Syria giving solace to Assad, praising him, blaming Israel in an unabashed way.And here is Andy most probably rubbing his hands with glee.Disgusting to the core.Andy and Duke both sides of the same coin! S

they will never pass a law in the usa that stops speach. i will critisize anyone i want and i will fight to the death to protect that right. if the israeli/jewish lobby tries that one on here they will find out in short order that the U.S. citizens are not so fully behind israel. walk softly on this israel we take it unkindly when strangers try to impose their will on us. although we can impose our will anywhere we can get a troop carrier into.

KJJ Did he see his friend David Duke in Syria last night? Wonders of wonders! What is the point of his post? We are discussing the Terrible Jewish Holocaust.No comparison whatever to what happens

i know lots of irish people in law school. I know lots of jews in labor type jobs, the only jewish police i know are the idf.

Howdy Andy; First, I don't think that laws against Holocaust denial per se serve any usefull purpose other than to provide the denier with a lot of unnecessary publicity. It is like passing a law making it a crime to publicly announce that the Earth is flat or that the Moon is made out of green cheese. Besides, most Western courts have taken judicial notice that the Holocaust is an indisputable and incontrovertible fact. Second, you keep claiming that there is "gradual ethnic cleansing" going on in the Palestinian Territories, but present no evidence of this. I suppose that a few Palestinians have had to move from one location to another due to military necessity, but there are no long lines of Palestinian refugees marching into Egypt or Jordan. Of course, you added the adjective "gradual", but in that case, it is so "gradual" that your hypothetical "ethnic cleansing" amounts to only a tiny fraction of the annual Palestinian population increase. If the Israelis wanted to "ethnically cleanse" the West Bank of Palestinians, they could certainly do a much better job of it. The truth of the matter is that there is no "ethnic cleansing" going on although a few thousand Palestinians may have been displaced by a few kilometers as have 9,000 Israeli settlers during the recent disengagement from the Gaza Strip and from four West-Bank settlements near Jenin.

The answer would be to have more stringent rules on deliberately falsifying accounts. Hit them in their pocket.

The way I understand the law in countries such as France, Germany, Austria, etc., it is a crime not only to deny the actual occurrence of the holocaust, but to even question the number of victims and the popular conceptions of the methods used to kill the victims. In other words, a scientist trying to ascertain if the gas chambers at Auschwitz or other camps could actually have killed the numbers of people claimed in the time periods they were in operation based on the sizes of the chambers and the time needed to "process" one shipment of victims would automatically fall afoul of these laws and be liable to fines or imprisonment. It seems that a new religion has sprung up - one which is almost as draconian in its treament of unbelievers as Judaism and Christianity used to be and which Islam is even today in many parts of the world. Here in the USA, I can deny the existence of God with relative impunity, but to question even the extent of the holocaust would bring down the organized forces of the Israel Firsters on my head. The peril of officially sanctioned thought police is drawing ever closer to my home here in America. A court ruling in Canada in the last few years stated that even telling the truth about an individual or a group of people is a crime if the truth might cause harm to the person or people involved. Naturally, that ruling was in a case involving Jews. And the Zionist lobbies here in the USA are working tirelessly to get my Congress to pass a law equating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, thereby making dissenting opinions about Israel and its actions a form of "hate crime." Brave New World indeed! One of the posters here has stated that the Austrian law is the law and Mr. Irving must obey the laws of that land. Might I remind people that Germany's infamous Nuremberg laws of the 1930s were duly enacted by the legal and internationally recognized government of that time. Using the rationale of some of the pro-Israel posters here, it would seem that no one has the right to question the legality or justice of those laws, either.

It's only since 2001, that Arab-Americans have toned down the anti-semitism. And that had nothing to do with a sudden attack of conscience, but rather with the insight that they would be tarred with the same brush--- or worse.

hadyn we are not your travel agents.what is your purpose in keeping us informed?

29 civilians were killed by the brutal irish in one massacre only.mainly women and children.the toll included a pregnant woman and twins(children) since the irish specialise in massacres i would have thought sensation would hide his head in shame.

look at the jews and the irish in the usa.the jews have been the more successful.so it will be in israel.while the irish were busy being corrupt policemen the jews were in universities and the harvard law school.

you and your views are to late you may as well go back to bed. I have not read a single anti semite word here nor has anyone other than me said they hate the jews. i hate everyone, so give that tired old speech back to whoever gave it to you. now how do you like that?

ireland is bankrupt.it has been kept afloat by europeans. israel receives military funds to keep your palestinian friends at bay.

Ezreal, As JFK once said, "Our problem are manmade , therefore, they can be solved by man". Thus, I cannot accept your assessment on Resolution 181 that is dead and buried. I think one has to look at things in the perspective of the times. That's the proper way to address things especially sensitive issues like UN Resolution 181. Of course , I realize that favors your camp but we are talking about being fair and square not greed and arrogance. I think that's what needed to settle this dispute too--if I may suggest. Besides, the only things I know that are dead and buried are people and creatures who have passed on. And the only other things cast in stone are the ten commandments ---everything else should be opened for discussion and fair game. In addition, as far as 194 is concerned --I think again you shedding Israel's responsibility here and that's not fair either. Isreal has been taking people in from different continents for the last 58 years --yet it cannot accommodate some Palestinian refugees? Give me a break. Not all the Palestinians wish to return but some do and Israel should work to accommodate them in measured numbers. I saw a column in the Jerusalem Post last June (04) , it was called Return to the Rubble by Ariel O' Sullivan. Well, O'Sullivan returned with a Palestinian guide to the Elah Valley of Adullam on the fringes of the Lachish district where 45 Palestinian villages still remained vacant from 1948. Of course there was all kinds of brush that covered things but the villages were recognizable. Ariel O'Sullivan said he was very touched by the sites. He was talking previously about man's bondage with history and he said that feeling came back to him. Nevertheless, here were 45 villages which remained vacant that could be fixed up and some of the Palestinian refugees might like that--don't you think? Perhaps another option is that some of the foreigners from other continents could be offered some kind of compensation to return to their country of origin. Thus, Ezreal I believe where their is a will their is a way. I hope you will agree. Thanks, Dutch

Yariv, you're an outsider too. You aren't residing in Isreal, or maybe you will be in the future not being born there however building some illegal settlement displacing Palestinians as usual. Yariv, just because Israel wears a green uniform, does not mean their soldiers aren't involved in terrorism. I guess you probably hold belief that the Irgun and Stern Groups weren't terrorists even though the world acknowledged them as and the fact they joined the Haganah, current name is the IDF, what does that say? I've always said if you didn't use your selective reading that any loss of innocent life, Isreali or Palestinian is wrong and barbaric. As far as Sabra and Shatila, it could have been prevented if Israel didn't allow access to the refugee camps. In fact, Sharon was discharged by the Israeli government for indirect responsibility remember? Deir Yassin wasn't a tragedy? Why is it recorded by Christian missionaries and by Ben Gurion that Deir Yassin was a psychological operation that made numerous Arabs flee from their homes in villages surrounding Deir Yassin or "Their fate will be the same as Deir Yassin"? Yariv, you're forgetting from day one Zionism's goals was to expel the indegenious population or as Herzl called them "THE PENNILESS POPULATION" which would simply accept Jewish rule or leave. Even Ben Gurion stated that the eventual goal was to rid all the indegenious Arabs after Isreal's creation. And as far as Ireland, you could learn from us. We have more peace here than Israel ever will see in ages, since Isreal's colonialist practices are very outdated. Shalom, peace light!

2000 years of anti jewish bigotry dont disappear in one or two generations. the west imprisons people like irving because it knows how vulnerable its people are to his lies. the jew haters in here who wrap themselves in liberal rhetoric see the censorship as the fault of the jews because they still havent confronted thier anti-semitism, and they project thier need to control onto us (the german you love to hate # 133). people like andy murray and yaakov sullivan and that guy from britain still feel an entitlement to bully and condescend to jews, as their ancestors did for centuries, and resent that the Jews are now able to retaliate. they experience this as "censorship" and identify with the Palestinians because they themselves feel displaced by the recent phenomenon of Jewish independence and strength, and want to see us restored to to our proper role as defenseless victims and recipients of thier "christian" mercy.

The way some Pro Israelis here think, any mention of victimized people outside the Jewish race is unheard of. I mean a gentile being victimized? According to those especially like Kim up the wall, we're all subhuman, inferior beings unless we're Jewish. I still don't understand this concept of being anti-semetic. How in the world did the white skinned Jews from Europe receive such a label, when Arabs and Palestinians have more semetic features similar to the likes of Abraham and Christ. Hmm, makes ya think :)

a. Theft of land and resources. Gaza has been returned. b. Money. Israelis are using their money to try to better themselves. The Palestinians as you say have nothing. So where is the money that Arafat squirreled away ? Where is the money that each week and month is deposited from the EU and America ? This money is another subject that everyone has forgotten about.

ill preach to ya, stop killing, stop deluding yourself,stop whineing,stop asking people for money,stop building nukes,stop insulting people,stop asking people for money,stop being ignorant,stop asking people for money,stop coming to the USA,stop telling people to butt out of the middle east,stop spelling peoples names wrong,stop asking for money,stop driving like a fool,stop wearing funny clothes,stop wearing those little caps,stop asking for directions,stop bulldozing homes,stop stopping. now how do you like that.

Israel's economy is not the greatest anymore, the Palestinians haven't disappeared, the political turmoil is at its greatest, and more Americans are realizing Israel is not our greatest ally, and more of a liability. The Palestinians went from being unknown refugees to having their plight exposed to the world and enjoy more world support. The Palestinians are becoming the majority of ancient Palestine. More countries are building nuclear weapons to counter Israel. Time is on the side of Palestinians. Yes, Israel's getting stronger, NOT

Denying a Palestinian existence at the turn of the century is disgusting and repugnant. The reality is that the Arabs constituted over 95 percent of the population in Palestine/Isreal before the 20th century. REMEMBER, ZIONISM CREATED IN EUROPE, NOT ISREAL. SECOND off, after numerous aliyahs which displaced native Palestinians with assistance from the British, the most the Jews were until the displacement of Palestinians was 30 percent and that was during the UN Partition in 1947 which decided to give a third and owners of 10 percent of the land 56 percent of the land. If anything, the Jews are the new kids on the block. The Arabs/Muslims ran Palestine for a thousand plus years prior to the invention of POLITICAL ZIONISM. I hope you're enlightened now. PEACE, LIGHT, LAILA TOV! And may this Christmas in Bethlehem Palestine be a blessing for Christ's seeds, the PALESTINIANS!

I cannot dispute your figures on the water matter as I do not know them to be true or false. I can only go on the assumption that they are true. Here in Canada we have thousands of lakes and countless rivers that travel north and south of our border with the USA. One would think that we have no problems for water sources . Yet even with our peaceful co -existence with the USA we have negotiated water agreements. If there is that water shortage as you say then it is just another reason to sit down with the Israelis and hammer out a final peaceful agreement rather than to continue killing each other.

It is appropriate to criminalize Holocaust denial, for the present, as part of a Europe-wide project to change the direction of European history. This is akin to American policies that promote "reverse discrimination." Europe has an additional problem, not true of America. Europe is comprised of small countries, bounded on the east and south by large Muslim and Slavic regions, where anti-semitism is still a great virtue, and Europe a destination for madrassah-educated immigrants. The prosecution of David Irving saves Vienna from turning into another Londistan.

You offer equal comparisons of the holocaust to the occupation. You are so wrong. I will give you one reason only and that should suffice this agument. The Nazis went about their work methodically and had no compunction to negotiate with the Jews or any compassion as what what they were doing to them. The Israelis have been offering peace ( whether you belive it or not )to the Arabs and Palestinians since they WON the 67 war.

What's next? Everyone here who disagrees with me will label me an anti-semite, Nazi, etc? Bruce, Aaron Miller, the Jewish male involved in peace 2000, even admitted Clinton and Barak dropped the ball, expecting Arafat to surrender to them. Sorry, but the Palestinians were not going to give up their claim to a capital in East Jerusalem, Israel controlling borders (a prerequesite for sovereignty, which still doesn't exist in Gaza), control of their own airspace, control of the Jordan valley, allowing Israel to annext 10 percent of the West Bank. Probably, the best decision Arafat ever made as a leader. Anyhow, that's not the topic. All I'm saying is yes, the HOLOCAUST was horrific. I'm sure if there is a God, he's burning that vermin Hitler repeatedly. I do believe that other genocides should be recognized though. What's wrong with that? Just because other refugees and displaced people from Greece, Armenia, etc left and never returned, it's morally wrong. They too should be allowed back home. IT PISSES ISRAEL OFF, THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SETTING PRECEDENT IN REGARDS TO RIGHT OF RETURN HAPPEN TO BE THE PALESTINIANS. I'd hope there can be some compromising solution in regards to that, at least Israel recognizing the refugee problem it inflicted as Ben Gurion noted in his diary. If there is any peace settlement the right of return would probably be for the refugees to return to the Palestinian state. Israel just needs to realize that the expectation to cleanse the ethnic population of Palestine the Palestinians did not work, and they're here for the duration including eternity. CHRIST'S SEEDS WILL REMAIN IN THE LAND OF HIS BIRTH. PEACE

Mr Irish orwhatever your name is..Please don't try and lecture on Israeli politics and history. You like Andy Murray are outsiders. Your biased and racist comments are why we disdain people like yourselves. Your far from objective when it comes to this subject. Palestinians rejected the Partition plan based on their refusal of Jewish State near them. Even if the UN had alloted then 99% of the land they still would have said no. Your apologist arguement holds no water. As for your comments about terror and that Palestinians suffer more. Well that goes to show your ignorance as if there is some more equivalence btw Terror and military ops. Don't get me wrong a loss of life is tragic no matter the circumstance. But yet again you give less worth to Jewish Blood. As for For Sabra, Shatilla. The Israelis did not initiate this horrible Massacre. Should they have more to stop it.. YES,, However put blame where needed and that is agains the Christian Phalangist. As for Deir Yassin and the so called atrocities. Well thats a myth and lie purpotrated by Palestinians at that time. Yes there was fighting, however the outlandish claims of hundreds of innocence massacred and ppl being thrown into wells are bold face lies. Criticizing Israel is not anti semitic, however what you and A Murray and the rest of your ilk is ignore facts and simply cast all blame on Israel for this whole conflict. So you can get lost and stick on cleaning up your mess in Ireland and dont preach to Israel or myself about what needs to be done in the ME.

One cannot selectively choose which bits and pieces of International agreements and laws one wants to purely to win an argument.Nor can one engage in manipulating UN resolutions and or charter to achieve ones heartfelt desires. UN181 was unequivecolly rejected by all arab parties and subsequently has become redundant. The implacability of the Arabs was evident when Jewish Agency representatives David Horowitz and Abba Eban made a last-ditch effort to reach a compromise in a meeting with Arab League Secretary Azzam Pasha on September 16, 1947. Pasha told them bluntly: "The Arab world is not in a compromising mood. It's likely, Mr. Horowitz, that your plan is rational and logical, but the fate of nations is not decided by rational logic. Nations never concede, they fight. You won't get anything by peaceful means or compromise. You can, perhaps, get something, but only by the force of your arms. We shall try to defeat you. I am not sure we'll succeed, but we'll try. We were able to drive out the Crusaders, but on the other hand we lost Spain and Persia. It may be that we shall lose Palestine. But it's too late to talk of peaceful solutions." .... So now you may understand why UN resolution181 is dead and buried? As for UN194 you Know of course that this was never a legal requirement and was in any case deliberately misinterpreted by Palestinians in later years. UN 194: "that refugees wishing to return to their homes and live AT PEACE with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which under principles of international law or in equity should be made good by Governments or authorities responsible." The words "in peace" highlighted to demonstrate that the UN recognized that Israel could not be expected to repatriate a hostile population that might endanger its security. Furthermore, the resolution uses the word "should" instead of "shall," which, in legal terms, is not mandatory language. In order that you may understand this President Mubarak stated the following in 1989:"The Palestinian demand for the "right of return" is totally unrealistic and would have to be solved by means of financial compensation and resettlement in Arab countries." The international "hague" court also makes non binding recommendations and offers legal opinions. so the politically motivated declaration is not required by law to be implemented. Dutch in seeking an outcome one should not engage in shenanigans and diversions by obfuscating and misinterpreting resolutions and judgments which only cloud the issues which in reality will only ever be solved by direct negotiations between interested parties. Understood?

i am always thanking god for one thing or another.like thank god for caller ID,and instant coffee,flow through tea bags and the tropical storms that periodically come through and clean away all the trailer parks in the mid west. my life is based upon a very closed value system in which people take responsability and my word for their own actions and anyone with multiple personalities can run for govenor of texas.

i have a new dust bunny. how about we outlaw ignorance. just put it right out there for everyone to see, of course those of us(nathan) who are blind in one eye and just cant see out of the other will need special ed, but i am willing to pay extra taxes so that they get the full benefit of the word of hadyn. given that i have been vindicated here as a person who was at least right one time i feel i should speak for all those who have been told they were wrong by those who were wrong . makes perfect sense to me. what do you think... nah your wrong.

--if they do not like what they say. CAIR has an agenda,clearly enunciated,to convert the whole of the USA to Islam. How do they intend to enforce the recalcitrants?

take it from me hadyn is always right. i cant think of a single instance when i have been wrong. now here is what we are gonna do. no more calling people names, no more using incorrect facts or outright lies to bolster your argument, those who have names that sound funny will stand on the left and those who wear cheap aftershave must stand way over there near the people with silly haircuts, after we get everyone where they should be we can start working on those who wear funny clothes. I know nathans mom use to dress him funny. this explains why he talks to himself so much. at least i have the voices in my head to talk to and they have been a great comfort in these trying times.

Hadyn is absolutely right!

Maybe you can refer us to your website on the issue. Intersting no gratuios comments on this one. Yes or no will do.

"Thanks Andy for vividly proving why these laws are real necessary. Without them will bring up poeple like you. As long as there are Abdy`s, these laws are never too muc." - Massoud People can disagree about whether or not the use of laws is the best way to deal with Holocaust denial. However, you post is not about this. It is about trying to censor any criticism of the brutal policies of the Israeli occupation (the gradual ethnic cleansing, the house demolitions, the dehumanization etc). Show me one statement in my posts where I denied the Holocaust (in fact I stated that it was one of the greatest tragedies of all time) but I did criticize the occupation (which by the way many Israeli and human rights groups do). Massoud, let?s be honest here- What you want is not a law against Holocaust denial but a way to silence all criticism of the occupation so that the colonization of the West Bank and the gradual ethnic cleansing can go on without attracting too much attention.

--Most Israelis,on numerous occasions,have said they want a seperate Palestinian state.

Any one familiar with the US can tell that somewhere and somehow there are limitation on what people can write and say about Zionism, about Israel and about Jews. In the US there are many watch dog organization on campuses and in media that monitor what is said or written about issues that has to do with Israel and the occupation and God is never in a postion to help those who deemed anti-semite, they will be crucified and chased out of jobs. In the US, we can debate any thing we want, including God, Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Mohamed, George Bush, the war in Iraq, but we are not in a position to debate any thing that has to do with Israel and its occupation or the exile of Palestinians. One only need and try to publish an article or an opinion page in the Washington Post or the New York Times, or make a speach on campus or publish a book that challenge Zionism or Israel and see what happens. One only need to look at the case of a famous Jewish professor and a lawyer expert on First Amendement Rights who tried tried and to prevent a publication of a book by another Jewish author. When it comes to Zionism and Israel man, it is cut throat business with people losing their jobs if they dare to speak.

"JORDAN dear JORDAN who took in millions of Palestinianes in 1948 because they were forced out of their homes and off their land in order to create Jewish state. Am I wrong... or are the history books wrong?" How outrageous to provide imaginary figures to support a false thesis. If,(as there is general agreement), there were only 900,000 "refugees" displaced from palestine in 1948 IN TOTAL, can "millions" of palestinians have been accepted in to Jordan? What history books are you referring to? Pinocchio's encyclopedia perhaps? So several hundred thousand departed for Jordan,many of whom subsequently repaid their hosts with internal strife and belligerency which ultimately led to a conflagration between the PLO and Jordanian forces and the deaths of 10-20000 people.Such a beautiful friendship! So in short YES YOU ARE WRONG and BUY SOME NEW HISTORY BOOKS!

and if someone should ask you into their lives, have some respect you are a guest, and may be asked to leave at any time.you see that is free will. i can ask you in i can ask you to vacate.it is my choice. so pack your bags and hit the ramp tramp.

Krin, You are right these injustices towards the Palestinian people must end -- they are morally unacceptable. Indeed, I feel Israel is in default of the Partition agreement of Palestine and it's time for the UN to reconvene and reconsider the implications of this. Israel 's admission to the UN was conditional upon two UN resolutions: (1) accepting a full fledge Palestinian State according to UN resolution 181 (Partition of Palestine): and (2) accepting the return of the refugees to "their home" according to UN Resolution 194. Since Israel has failed to abide and comply with these two UN Resolutions in the Partition agreement; and it is already in violation of over 180 UN resolutions many with Security Council bindings; plus it is in violation of the International Court on the Hague with its illegal placement of the barrier. The barrier which runs 80% inside the Palestinian territories is causing terrible hardships for the Palestinian people--thus making their ordinary life impossible and violating their human rights -- cutting them off from each other, their land; their means of livelihood; their schools and access to medical care. Writing in the British Medical Journal last October Dr. Derek Summerfield said Israel's illegal barrier will destroy the coherence of the Palestinian health system: "The wall will isolate 97 primary health clinics and 11 hospitals from the populations they serve. The Qalqilya Hospital, which primary serves refugees, has seen a 40% fall in follow up appointments because patients cannot enter the city. There has been at least 87 documented cases (including 30 children) in which denial of access to medical treatment has led directly to deaths, including those of babies born to women while held up at checkpoints." Daily as Israel continues to act illegally towards the Palestinian people and deny them their basic human rights and political rights it make enemies of its other neighbors in the region-this threatens stability and peace in the region and in the world. Thank you, Dutch

People talk to God every day with no dire consequences. Problems arise when God answers back. I hope the voices you hear in your head come from earphones otherwise I think you might have a problem.

you bet,i have long held the opinion that faulty spelling was the work of god. thankyou for your support in this. and of course with you calling yourself "enlightened" am i to understand that you have spoken to god lately and he answered you back. You are just jealous that voices in my head are talking to me and not you

While I never could understand how such an educated person like David Irving`DENYY` the existance of the Holocaust, he must be be afforded the freedom of speach and the right to make a fool of himself. Should the world take action against Jews who deny the existance of the Palestinians, the existance of Palestine and the existence of the Palestinian exiles. As a supporter of free speach, I could never support legistlation that limits our views of history, including the Holocaust. If we can debate the existance of God, and debate the Creation, I don't see why we should we limit debate on the Holocaust. There are so many documents and facts that support the occuring of such a horrible crime, we should allow people to debate whatever they want including God himself/herself.

"What is shameful is that you use the memory of the terrible atrocities committed against your people in the past as a weapon to silence those who dare criticize the atrocities being committed against others! I, on the other hand, use the memory of the terrible atrocities committed against Jews and others as a reminder that we should all stand for human rights for all" Stephen Murray, You have hit the mail on the head on the Israeli apologists. They would best serve the Holocaust victims not by their loyalty to Israel but by their loyalty to Human Rights. I feel so many have lost sight of their moral compass and have gone off course. Now many justify many of the same things the Holocaust victims had to endure: the destruction of public and personal property, the isolation and unfair ranking of non-Jews; the occupation; the arbitrary arrest without due process; systematic violence and the targeted killings of resistance members. Shame on the Israeli apologists -- THEY HAVE GONE OFF COURSE Dutch

A school is a place for minds to grow, not to be stifled by some fool waving a bible,tora or koran around claiming they know what is best for the rest of us. Religion should be kept to places of worship and in ones own heart/soul. Religion is already causing enough hate in the world,how much death has occured in the name of god. we talk of the 6 million, try counting all the souls that have been sent to their maker by those claiming to be working for god. seperate the church from the state. stay out of peoples live unless they ask you to come in.

If taking God out of the school system will foster better spelling skills then I am ALL for it. If it improves YOUR spelling and writing then you will be able to honestly say " thank God"!

laws dont always help, true but it allows people to believe that they are safe now. they aren't, driving this underground and forcing your values onto someone never works it just makes them hate you more. Its a false sense of security.

i can answer that one. The jews. That was easy, why do people get so worked up about that set of words? You people,you people you people see it doesnt hurt. American blacks lose it whenever someone says it too. all jews want to be classed as jews therefore you become a people a group you people. Any other questions

ok so now you have taken away so of the freedoms enjoyed by the german and austrian people, a couple of years from now you will take more, they will begin to hate the jews again for forcing this on them here we go again.

your damn right we took god out of school, do you know the cost of a good education in america? Trying to put him and the holy ghost, and the virgin mother through the school system was just to much money. we had to make a choice here. But dont worry god found is calling in politics, he is working with needy rebublicans somewhere in ohio i believe. Taking god out of the schools here was the best thing america ever did. keep him out i say and if that is how you feel keep you out too.

Mr murry like others has decided to spend his energy trying to help, or at least understand the problems in the middleeast. Good on him. I f more peole took an interest in that ----hole the world might be a better place. I dont think he is obsessed with jews and i see and read nothing in his posts that would even remotely be lassed as anti-semite,or jew hater. A man/woman can argue either side of this world without taking anyones side. Stop trying to silence those who choose to try and understand. Being a pompus blowhard nathan is not the same abeing enlightened. you surley must know this having been told it so many times.

Freedom of speech is one of the most valuable freedoms we have in our western societies. Laws against Holocaust denial would collide with this freedom in countries like the US as the US was not involved in the Shoa. But here in Europe especially in Germany this laws IMHO are making sense so that the population has to face up the truth. For the still living witnesses of the 3rd Reich it would have been to easy and comfortable to follow those deniers. This had to be avoided even to the cost of reducing freedom of speech. Laws normally reflect necessities in a society. And my, the german society, has to come clean with her past even if this means to give up a little bit our freedom of speech. BTW, anyone comparing Israel to Nazi-Germany makes me sick. Not only one world lies between those two.

Pretty ridiculous law because people are going to think whatever they want regardless (hopefully). How about a law against the denial of God? His name is profaned enough, especially in His holy land. How about a law against the denial of racism - that's a good one! Except half the world would be behind bars (maybe that's a good thing). What is the point here anyway? You can't shove it down people's throats anyway - please, have some dignity! What is far more frightening is that the very people who would seek to prosecute someone for holocaust denial would probably defend to the teeth another person's right to deny the existence of God - what is the greater evil here? You deny God's existence and then you have set the stage for the pile of shit we are all living in today. Prayer was taken out of public school in the united snakes, oops, sorry, united states, in the late 50s/early 60s and no one cared. Big mistake. And we are all paying the price. Sorry, but the denial of God upsets me a whole lot more.

Yariv will not get lost, he will prosper and build a stronger and better Israel for all its citizens.

Is Arafat included in the millions of Pals taken in as refugees? And if so please explain as he was born in Egypt way before Israel became a state. How many of the " millions " of Pals were in the same boat with Arafat?

i am interested in your interest stephen murray.you are here every day after all .that is more then an interest.since you have no horse in the race that is an obsession.is it because of the jews?

the dutch handed thousands of their citizens to the germans.all were murdered.that stephen murray is the real racism we should be discussing.

why is stephen murray only outraged about events in our area.what happens here is dwarfed by events the world over.26000 iraqis civilians have been killed since january 2004.why does he become 'stephen murray the silent'when there are no jews involved? will stephen murray answer this question?

stephen murray is that more horrific then the cruelty in sudan?or iraq? or the rampant cruelty in many african states? how about the cruelty of the russians in chechenya? thousands of moslems were massacred.did you protest? did you hell. the examples above do not suit stephen murray because there are no jews involved.he hates the jews with a vengeance.

"Why do you people feel the need to censor those who disagree with you?" - Do you mean Austrian laws? Disagree with what? That 6 million people killed because they were jews? History is not a matter of opinion, it is something that happened and witnessed by thousands both jews and gentiles. "I don`t see anyone silencing Jews who have made bigoted, hateful comments about gentile Europeans or who were caught making false, inciteful statements." - I don't see Haaretz silencing anybody but what inciteful statements do you mean?

"I am even more disturbed by how hard some people on this forum work to dismiss and trivialize what has happened (and is still happening to the Palestinians) - 38 years of occupation, preceded by the taking over of their land which resulted in 750,000 refugees (now in the millions) and the ongoing loss of hope is nothing to sneer at." - I am probably the one who wants to "trivialize" and ask you some questions. I don't dismiss Arab suffering however is it "trivializing" to say that millions of German, Indian Pakistany etc. refugees suffered like that or more? Or is it "trivializing" to say that jewish refugees from Arab countries suffered like this and why those hundreds of thousands did not become millions? Not dismissing Arab suffering however can I ask you if Israel is only responsible party or other Arab countries share responsibility for their agression and inability to absorb refugees like all other countries in the world did?

Why do you people feel the need to censor those who disagree with you? I don't see anyone silencing Jews who have made bigoted, hateful comments about gentile Europeans or who were caught making false, inciteful statements. You people are control freaks.

"IF YOU CRITICIZE PALESTINIANS FOR NOT ACCEPTING UN PARTITION PLAN OF 1947, THEN YOU SIR ARE A HYPOCRITE BECAUSE ISREAL IS NOT ACCEPTING UN RESOLUTION 194! SHAME ON YOU AND YOUR HYPOCRACY!" - Before calling someone a hypocrite just learn history. ISRAEL ACCEPTED 1947 UN RESOLUTION AND PARTITION PLAN! This is kind of history denial. However if you started a genocidal war that you lost forget it. It is no longer valid. Then in 2000 Clinton offered 1967 borders and Barak accepted it but Pals denied and started "intifadeh". Then what do you want now? You deny all peace proposals over and over and what do you think you will finally get? I afraid that nothing but Gasa. Then don't blame Israel.

"On average, a Palestinian citizen in the West Bank is allowed to use no more than 36 cubic metres of water per year, while Israeli settlers in the West Bank can use up to 2,400 cubic metres." - Even if you are right you dare to compare it to the gas chambers of Aushvitz? "Palestinians are not allowed to use their own roads and streets. They are not allowed to build houses. They are not allowed to move freely. Their GDP per capita is less than $1,000 while Israel`s is almost $20,000." - That is the choice they made when they started this "intifadeh". Before that their living standards were much better than those of other Arab countries like Syria. Negociate peace and your life will be much better off.

There are roughly 60 mil descendants from displaced and refugees who claim various tracts of land around the world today. 15 mil Germans were kicked out from Eastern Prussia,Silesia ans Sudetenland. Prussia as opposed to to Palestine was a separate nation for hundreds of years but due to historical that country disappeared at least hundred thousand square km of its territory was incorporated in other nations such as Soviet Union and Poland and its population was displaced in its entirety. Same happened with Greeks,Armenians and Kurds in Turkey,Muslims and Hindus respectively in Pakistan,India and Bangladesh. Israel is no exception but you would want the current generation of Israelis to pay for what their forefathers have done to Palestinians. You keep on talking about historical facts which can't be changed:i.e. most Jews in Israel have nowhere else to go.They are born there and have no other country to go to. All other refugees and their descendants have found their place and integrated in their new countries.Palestinians still mourn their loss and want to go back even if that means that the current inhabitants will have to become refugees themselves for this to happen.

Thanks Andy for vividly proving why these laws are real necessary. Without them will bring up poeple like you. As long as there are Abdy's, these laws are never too muc.

of gassing in the German records and actual canisters of gas. Order forms to build crematorium etc. Perhaps you should google it. No shortage of references to gassing by the germans. Guess we all see and hear just what we want to.

Jim, it shouldn't be strange at all. After all, Israel never threatened any country with extinction. Israel, a country which is suspected of having nuclear weapons since 1950's, never threatened to use those even in moments when the country was in a mortal danger, like in 1973 Yom Kippur War. The wars are called pre-emptive not only by Israelis, but so by any historian who studied the situation. You can easily read the media of that time to see that the wars were, indeed pre-emptive. Arab and Muslim states spend all of their time in UN pushing anti-Israeli resolutions, mostly at the expense of other states in dire need of help (remember Rowanda genocide ?) Sometimes it seems world doesn't have any other issues except for this conflict. Lastly, your understanding of those resolutions about giving up the land is very simplistic to say the least. The resolution you speak about talks in general about giving up the land, but specifically and purposely doesn't mention which, reflecting the fact that the territories in question are disputable.

What is the point in denying such a monstruosity, anyway? How about this, "Truth in advertising". It is well known the germans kept meticulous records of their slaughter of the jews, and yet there is no mention of gassings. They explain that the reason that the auschwitz gac chamber doesn't have any trace evidence of it's former use is that it is a reproduction. Me thinks production would be the more accurate verb. Hey the auschwitz plaque that said 4 million were gassed was revised to say 2 1/2 million, but ther was no revision of the 6 million number. But hey, this term, "holocaust denial" is also wrong. It is actually "holocaust reductionism". You'all have a nice day now. Shalom, Norm..

you are so filled with the mantra, the propoganda and one sided arguments you don't stop to take a breadth and look to see if what you say ad naseum is true. It Makes you as ripe as the german people(among others) were to accept the hate which allows such atrocities.It is as if you were in a hypnotic trance. You play a tape over and over and over and over and ver and over and over.......

Nobody tip toes around Abbas. I for one do not pay attention to his Holocaust denial. He and his millions are in the special category of Holocaust deniers. The category that denies the word 'jew' altogether is higher than the Holocaust denial.

Israel exhausted the water resources in Gaza by tapping the flow of underground water east of Gaza, resulting in the seepage of seawater into Gaza's coastal aquifer. Gazans have been left with blackish water resources that cause high rates of kidney failure. Of 960 million cubic metres of water that is generated in the West Bank, Palestinians are allowed to use only 109, one-tenth of their own water. The rest goes to Israel. On average, a Palestinian citizen in the West Bank is allowed to use no more than 36 cubic metres of water per year, while Israeli settlers in the West Bank can use up to 2,400 cubic metres. Palestinians are not allowed to use their own roads and streets. They are not allowed to build houses. They are not allowed to move freely. Their GDP per capita is less than $1,000 while Israel's is almost $20,000. They still have an imposed tax and market union which obliges them to buy products at the same cost as Israelis." What about those times when water rations and poisoned water were forced upon the Jews in Dresden? Anyone remember?

I just saw something interesting I could not resist to reply. I may reject whatever you have to say but at least I have bothered to make sure to spell your name correctly. Yet the people that prase your articles do not bother to do so. A bit insulting, isn't it? One thing I will not bother to do is to rush to hang my head at the sight of your posts.

Those who advocate extreme censorship to the point of imprisoning a person for their words is a facist. Those who advocate those same laws don't apply to them is a hypocritical elitist. It would appear all of those who favor Austria's Holocaust Denial law are both. When will some Jews stop expecting the world to allow them a separate and double standard by which they are not held to the same laws as others. Israel's refusal to allow U.N. inspections of its nuclear plants is just one example. Demanding a law to imprison someone for what they write is another. Until these people acknowledge the fact that plenty of others have suffered Holocausts don't expect others to be overly sympathetic to events that occured over 60 years ago.

What Palestinians rejected in 47 was the peace and their own state (five words that even you should understand), thanks to their Arab brothers. I do not criticize them at all. Everyone makes mistakes, some are just more grave than others. Besides it is all in the past, maybe good food for arguments but nothing more. What is really important is how many more rejections they have to make and for how many more years, with healthy Israel in their sights. Heck, with the way the Palestinian elections are shaping up and the rate the wall is being built we may not worry about any rejections after all. I will leave you with that sought and happy holidays.

what do we care about facts, the pals are freedom fighters, the israelis are hero's the americans are perfect and the french make great scape goats. I like mine in a nice curry with a bit of mint on the side. You can get anything you want at alices restaraunt. Each side has their own names for those who defend their people. Why argue it, pull out pull back and let go.

It is so unfortunate that people like KJJ don't seem to get it. Yes I know him too...his many "bla blab bla's" show us how he struggles to get his point across which I can't figure out most of the time. Now he claims we are jealous of Israel...the "fifty- first" state of the US...why should we envy them? The US Administration supports the ongoings over there...KJJ and the likes should thank you and me. However educated people can see through the lies which are fed to the world. We see the wall, we hear the cries of the innocent and we know the history. You are right Andy, it seems KJJ and likeminded people have NO memory of this brutal time some 60 years ago. If they did...how than is it possible to allow themselves to get so utterly brainwashed by their government? What a pity...THEY DID NOT LEARN

Andy how the hell are we going to argue and insult one another if we take everything someone says for what they said,jeez the world is simple enough without you saying exactly what you mean.

Is that what they were doing on the front lawn? I thought it was the the way they welcome people to the neighborhood. My god are you sure jacob.

You never stand for what you say. You are as one sided as many on this forum. I have never seen you speak out against the murder of Israeli innocents, only the palestinian. You usually justify their murders.Hitler also had his reasons that the Germans with poverty and an economy in shambles were too happy to accept. No one should be using violence anywhere to make their point-stop using the term "freedom fighters" ie. as an example for terrorists.Then YOU can claim fairness and evenhandedness. Until then, lose the morally superior attitude. It does not fit the facts. Both sides have acted atrociously.

even if it is such fun...like 420 dudeeeeee!!!

hey it works for me

Turn this into a UN Partition argument?! You are so one sided, single minded that you cannot stay on a topic without twisting it to anti-Israel issue. Israeli's do it too against Palestinians. The topic here folks is Holocaust denial. Irish, for your information, uttering the term "every single genocide" shows you do not understand the basic concept of group, that's plural as in many many murders. Get a dictionary

Why do you all Tip Toe around ABBAS who wrote his dissertation claiming there was no holocaust? What should happen to him I wonder?

Excellent post - You really do a good job of explaining why the Palestinians rejected the partition. Sadly, some on this forum don't want to listen - I am beginning to think they are self-absorbed to the point of not understanding any suffering other than their own!

I continue to read: "Palestinians would not accept UN Partition in 47" Has Israel accepted any of the 3 or 4 later UN Resolutions which demand Israel to give up the land they have seized in the wars? After 1947 as I recall the Arabs only started two of them? I guess the ones started by Israel were "pre-emptive"? I recall only a few months back "Ari" demanded that the UN, force Iran to abide by a UN Resolution to give up nuclear activities. Seems to be a double standard. Jim

When Deborah Lipstadt in her book, "denying the holocaust" informs us that the stories about the nazis turning jews into soap, was all make believe, was she guilty of holocaust denial?

Hey Sentation, Can you explain to me how get lost works here. I would love to learn how to loose some people on this boards. But if you can not teach me that, shut up and listen to what people with brain have to say here.

Antisemitic rethoric of the same kind as that used by the Nazis 60-70 years ago is still used today among others by Jihadists and their allies of convenience:the extreme right,left [and some times centre] in Western politics. This is a direct and unmitigated threat for today's Jews not only in Israel but the world over. Armenians for instance don't seem to be directly under threat today and may choose to patch up their ancestral conflict with the Turks [if they so wish] but we and our kids experience a real and serious threat today from those who use the so called free speach to blame us for all their misfortunes. Do you see the difference?

Envy is a terrible thing....They hate our fantastic success..... Their doctors are Jewish and it sticks in their throats.....

"Free speach cannot and should not be used to protect those who promote ethnic and religious hatred which can lead to genocide." - Daniel Leopold Free speech should be used to expose and destroy those who promote ethnic and religious hatred which can lead to genocide. The problem is that when only one side has free speech it becomes nothing but propaganda.

You couldn't have said it any better Irish Sensation. All that you hear about is "The Holocaust" like no other group has ever endure pursecution and genocide in the entire history of mankind. Unfortunately the events of WWII have given some the misguided notion that they have some bastardized moral capital to accuse others of intolerance and bigotry but are somehow excused from their actions and attitudes being called to account. The Jews I know are appalled at the facsist behavior of those who believe they are entitled to extraordinary laws and entitlements. This are people of tolerance and non-viloence who believe and practice equality for all. Obviously as this site brings out there are many here who feel there are entitled to special treatment and above the laws that govern others.

Listen the wall opologist,rape,murder and robbery is not the issue here,If a man denies a rape or murder ever took place he might be a loony but you dont throw him in prison unless you are in KGB russia or Communist China of the past. I dont even think north koreans do that.

...has other motives besides that of ```JEW ENVY``

Mark, Thanks for your thoughtful post. I wasn't trying to compare the plight of the Palestinians to the Holocaust. Clearly the Holocaust is one of the greatest tragedies of all time. I just find it disturbing how little people learned from it (or more accurately how selective their application of the lesson is). I am even more disturbed by how hard some people on this forum work to dismiss and trivialize what has happened (and is still happening to the Palestinians) - 38 years of occupation, preceded by the taking over of their land which resulted in 750,000 refugees (now in the millions) and the ongoing loss of hope is nothing to sneer at. Enjoy the weekend!

No one is denying that the Armenians weren't killed (slaughtered). No one is denying that the Rwandans weren't slaughtered. There is political and diplomatic wrangling over terminology, but there aren't people who say "Dead Armenians" What dead Armenians? Dead Rwandans? What dead Rwandans? The fact that the Israeli government doesn't want to tick off one of the few neighboring nations that it has reasonably good relations can be chalked up to the fact that Israel continues to face intense pressure to see it destroyed. When you have few friends in the world, you don't start picking a fight with the one's who are watching your back. It's an ugly reality, but it is reality. That said, Israel does give the massacre recognition, which is more than what the Japanese have done over their own direct acts against the Chinese during World War II, most notably the rape of Nanjing.

My question to anyone out there is this: why has Israel pressured Germany, but not Austria, to do more over the years regarding the prosecution of the Holocaust? I don't know the answer to that one. Germany , or the FRG more precisely, did a great deal under allied occupation during the Cold War period to prosecute war criminals. But I do not understand why Austria "got off" so lightly, at least until the time of Waldheim (1980's), when the crimes committed there received media attention once again. Is this because Austria received "special status" as a "neutral" during the Cold War? Read Tolstoy!

Yariv, every people have their faults as do Jews. Palestinians also have their faults. However, this taboo of saying anything bad about Israel or the Jewish population is ending. This censorship in reference to accusing Israel of wrongdoing is ending also. Yes, I too criticize Israel for not accepting the ARMENIAN GENOCIDE. Many of those Armenian refugees who fled came to Palestine, and many were housed and looked after by Palestinian families, since they too understood the harsh realities of being occupied by the Ottomans. I also criticize Israel for every single Genocide commmitted against the Palestinians, from Deir Yasin, QANA, SABRA AND SHATILA, etc. Sure, Palestinians have attacked Israelis and every single attack that has killed innocent ISRAELIS is also condemned by me. The difference is though the casaulties inflicted upon the innocent Palestinian civilians is way larger than that inflicted upon the Israelis. As far as the Palestinians not accepting UN RESOLUTION of 1947? Absolutely they should not have accepted it. After being a 97 percent majority up until 1947 after plenty of Jewish immigration to Palestine, Jews accounted for 30 percent of the population and owned less than 10 percent of all lands and the U.N. is giving them 56 percent of Palestine? LOOOOOOOOOOL! Israel would never accept a one state solution, and right now they are not the majority anymore in Israel/Palestine, so IF YOU CRITICIZE PALESTINIANS FOR NOT ACCEPTING UN PARTITION PLAN OF 1947, THEN YOU SIR ARE A HYPOCRITE BECAUSE ISREAL IS NOT ACCEPTING UN RESOLUTION 194! SHAME ON YOU AND YOUR HYPOCRACY!

Let's make this very simple, to jail one solely because of the words they speak and/or write is not what democratic countries do. This is censorship and usually practiced by fascists. To have a law that only pertains to those who deny the experiences of one group is elitist. Why is it justifiable to imprison someone who denies the Jewish Holocaust yet someone who denies the Native American Holocaust, the Armenian Holocaust or any other group's Holocaust is allowed to remain free? Talk about demanding special treatment. The sooner Jewish people realize that bad things have happened to every group and culture and cease demanding that they be accorded special treatment for the injustices they have experienced you will see ilk like Irving fade away.

Antisemitism of the most vile and virulent kind is alive and well in most Muslim countries today. The same canards and garbage propaganda used to dehumanise and demonize Jews in the first half of the twentieth century and especially during the Nazi-Fascist rule in the thirties and forties in Europe is used by the media,the clerics and the educators in those countries creating a new generation of Jew haters. THEY USE HOLOCAUST DENIERS TO PROMOTE AND JUSTIFY THEIR SICKENING HATRED OF JEWS. THEY USE ANTISEMITISM TO SUPPORT AND COVER UP THEIR CORRUPT,INEPT AND INCOMPETENT RULLERS IN THEIR COUNTRIES. Free speach cannot and should not be used to protect those who promote ethnic and religious hatred which can lead to genocide. I agree that the Armenian,Tutzis,Gipsy and so many other genocides were absolutely abhorent and must be denounced but this must be done by those who suffered from them and their descendants who chose sometimes to ignore history for the sake of peaceful and harmonius relations with their neighbours today. Jews on the other hand are still under attack today in too many places and cannot just let bygones be bygones