The new post-Zionists

I don't respond to any post that's prefixed with the ultra moronic "Hey or Say"--That's the plaint of a child striving for attention--Not only don't I reply, I never bother to read them--

What a piece of work you are BJ; if truth doesn't fit your BS, you go personal into MLK's bedroomand everybody else's bedroom. What has that got to do with whether he wrote the fake letter or not? You are so predictable. If the truth hurts your program, go down down down to the personal. Worry about Josh in your bedroom. The letter is a fake and Zionists need to stop using it to support their BS and your BS. Stop worrying about peoples personal lives. It appears you have none of your own. You and Gabe 1 are the only 2 who do that when you can't handle truth. Grow up, why don't you. Ariel, ignore BJ's stupid arse. Other posters answered your question about authenicity while BJabber deals with tabloid BS. A moron.

I will try to pull it up on the internet. Thanks for the quote. Why do Jews keep trying to put dead MLK in the middle of what is going on over there? Surely Zionists don't give a wit what black folks think about this mess, do they? Regards.

MLK would not support what is going on in Israel today and anyone who knew him knew he would not. He would stand with Tutu and call a spade a spade. There is very little support for a 21st century hijacking of an entire country. Don't forget, MLK spoke out against the Vietnam war. He would not have supported Zionism to the detriment of the indigenous Pals. As far as sources for the letter, I just know Coretta and her son said it was a fraud and have not made any public statements regarding Israel after internet and news finally let the world see and read what was really going on over there. Before that, it was hidden, esp in the US press. Regards.

MLK also had his failings--He had a penchant for many women, other than his wife--Coretta turned a blind eye, she had no choice--Nothing say's that she was privy to all of MLK's innermost thoughts--He told her what he felt she had to know--He too had feet of clay--

Wow, Walter, caught out in your fake letter from Martin Luther King, you now cite a fake book! Complete with publication place and date, the only slight drawback is that ... the book doesn't exist, sorry about that! We're well into Protocol of the Elders of Zion territory now.

Dear PAUL, Yes, Jews, Isrealis, Palestinians, everyone in fact, has basic human rights. These are inviolable and must be respected. Regards Nick

We have to re-inforce YIDDISHKEIT amongst our secular brethren!! It's very obvious that less yiddishkeit=less commitment to Eretz Yisrael!! More Yiddishkeit=more commitment to eretz yisrael!!

Prof. Arens,what is most tragic is that the Israeli public allows those leftist kooks to hold power ! But don't despair-the 300,000 patriots residing in our heartland of Judea & Samaria will not be bought off with money and no Israeli soldiers will evict them on the orders of this treasonable Quisling regime !

The "letter" is a fraud. Entitled "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend" it was purported to have appeared in "Saturday Review XLVII August 1967" on page 76 but it does not. See: CAMERA ALERT: Letter by Martin Luther King a Hoax http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_article=369 Dr. King would never have supported what "zionism" has become from its noble beginnings with Herzl and then Brandeis. Had he not been assassinated, a method also favored by Israel, there is little doubt that he would also not be in favor of Palestinians being driven from their land and being herded and subjugated like sub-humans by Israel.

smadar your problem remains you talk too much and do nothing ! without irgun and lechi israel would never have existed and the jewish homeland would have returned to lodz! you talk total crap about greater israel when what you mean is the land ceded to ajewish state at san remo ! omert and livni suffer from still being ghetto jews !

"If this is not post-Zionism, just what is it?" Realism, perhaps? An appreciation of Int'l Law, maybe? "Perish the thought that if that decision had been implemented, the State of Israel would have been stillborn" Come again? The JEWISH state would not have been viable with "only" half of the old Mandate territory? This explains the naked expansionism that took place *before* the Jewish State was declared... "and that only by "occupying" territories beyond the UN partition lines was Israel able to assure its survival" Hmmm, the Jews had *already* expanded well beyond the partition lines even *before* the state was declared, which rather exposes this argument as nonsense. "Thrown into the dustbin of history is the League of Nations mandate for Palestine of 1920" Yes, it was thrown away with Res 181. Get Over It. "they included what is today the Kingdom of Jordan" Article 25 of Mandate - nuff' said.

other way. Just as a reminder, and taken from a familiar text by Joan Peters, (1984) "From Time Immemorial", certainly a Likud favourite and not particularly mine, as it questions the grievances of the Palestinians and questions their displacement, etc. But she wrote about Zionism p.88 "The concept of the "return" of the Jews from exile to the biblical homeland in Zion - the promised land - was an integral part of Jewish life everywhere, but nowhere was it fervently held or more inextricably interwoven with daily life and long-range hope than among the Sephardim. They were intense in their religious observances." My point is, despite not having the presence of Israel or partial Jewish Palestine pre-1948, there were always Zionists and probably Zionism will endure as our history of persecutions validates the essence of its ideology - a secure home.

Most Jews and especially Israeli Jews are Zionists - being that its essence is that the Jewish people should return to their homeland. There's a difference between a Zionist who believes in pursuing the Greater Israel form of Zionism as supposedly stipulated in the Torah. The latter is what Mr. Arens seems to espouse to this type of Zionism, but don't quote me for certain. Nevertheless, it's my opinion that Herzl, Jabotinsky and David Ben Gurion would today, given the global situation and pretty well the moderate Arab world's acceptance of Israel, that they would have supported PM Olmert and FM Tzipi Livni of Kadima. They're reformed right-wingers anyways. Con't next post...

Don't you dare try to use MLK to try and justify the bloodthristy barabaric dishonest manner in which the Zionists have conducted themselves towards the poeple of Palistine. Don't. That letter is false. You know it. I know it and honest thinking people know it. You really revealed yourself on this one. Freak.

There was an indigeneous population (American Indians) living the United States of America when my grandparents left Romania and came to Ellis Island, New York. Without a doubt, the Palestinians received far better treatment.

The President of Israel, Shimon Peres, was born in Poland. Does that bother you?

This letter was not written as a formal letter. Rather, it was a compilation of exerpts from his speeches put into letter form. Regards.

Google your way with: Martin Luther King "fake letter". You will find plenty. Like, for instance: www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/palestine/1_21_04_israels_apologists.htm Regards.

"Post Zionism is a very sick leftist death wish. Self respecting Jews, and lovers of Israel, must rise up and assure its demise very soon." (Chaim) And how do you plan to "rise up and assure Post Zionism's demise", from Brooklyn? I wonder. Or are you really a true lover of Israel - and of its leadership - planning to make alyia (move here) very soon? In which case, you should read this, and think again: "... you are (Chairman Mahmoud Abbas) a man of peace, who believes in a two-state solution. [...] ... the vision that so many Palestinians long for, and that is a society in which they can raise their children in peace and hope." President GW Bush, September 2006. www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060920-1.html "The Palestinians deserve to live under better conditions than they are subjected to, and be free of the humiliation of occupation, in a state of their own." Condoleezza Rice, quoted in Haaretz, Oct 12, 2006. My advice: Don't come here. Your Administration, our sole ally in this cruel world, has been overtaken by deceitful "sick leftists", ready to sell us out, and our country is doomed. Stay were you are.

I was very interested to hear that the MLK letter was/is a fake. Can someone give me references to statements by Coretta (Mrs. King) and MLK Jr.? The ultra right Zionists in Boston are still using the letter.

Let's get it straight--England was most generous to the Arabs when she violated her Mandate and gave away 77% of the land intended for a Jewish state--She made a gift, at no cost to herself, to Emir Abdullah, for services rendered in WW1--When anyone says "Jordan is Palestine" that refers to the land stolen from the Jews--For the Arabs the war isn't over, they're still trying to win one, no matter what the cost to themselves or others--Their idea is that they want 100% of the Mandated lands, not a measly 77%--I thought being a pig was Haram--Eating one, maybe, being one is quite another matter--

Only a Jew with the deepest and sickest self hatred could embrace post-Zionism. However, Arens is correct that Olmert and Livni have sunk to the depths. The two top officials in Israel are an almost certain criminal (Olmert) and a convicted sex offender (Ramon). That sums up the governing coalition. Totally devoid of morality, belief and self respect. Post Zionism is a very sick leftist death wish. Self respecting Jews, and lovers of Israel, must rise up and assure it's demise is very soon.

Arabs refused the 2 state solution--They clearly expressed their disapproval when they attacked Israel on 5/15/48--Then the ignored the 1949 Armistice when Nasser cut off the Suez to Israel shipping and barred Usraeli shipping from the straits of Tiran--Let's not forget the wars of 1967 & 1973 while we're at it--Factually, the Arabs have fixated on a Palestine devoid of Jews--Read the Hamas & PLO charters, they will enhance your education--They both state their intentions quite clearly- Judenrein Palestine--

...M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr." ((New York, 1971), pp. 234-235.) These are not only selections from his writings, but a compilation of his speeches as well.

[Olmert's] stupidity on declaring that if such and such thing doesn't happen as he envisions it, the state of Israel 'is done for'. " (Fortuna Benmayor) You seem badly informed. Olmert is neither the only one, nor the first one, far from it, to tell us that. See for yourself: "Mr. Prime Minister Menahem Begin, ... your sense of a historical mission to convey to later generations our fathers' legacy in its entirety, [is an] obsessional wishe which [has] no possibility of realization, [and is] a stumbling block source of catastrophe?" "Let us not compel the Arabs to feel that they have been humiliated until they believe that hope is gone and they must die for Palestine." in an 'Open Letter' to PM Begin, 1980, by Jacob Talmon, then Professor of Modern History at the Hebrew U of Jerusalem. www.fmep.org/analysis/articles/prophetic_message.html 1980, long before the first suicide-bombing, two years before the first Lebanese war against Arafat's PLO, seven years before the first Palestian uprising, and 27 years before Hamas in full control of the Gaza Strip, and of a Palestinian government. In 1980, no one had heard the name 'Hamas'. PM Begin chose not to answer Prof. Talmon's letter, thinking, perhaps, that Prof. Talmon's mistake was not ideological, but personal.

..."My Life with Martin Luther King Jr." by Coretta Scott King. In it she details his support for both pacifism and Zionism, both which the palestinians oppose. P.S. I do check my sources carefully.

The acceptance of Israeli terrorism equated to Palestinian terrorism was outrageous, and so is his stupidity on declaring that if such and such thing doesn't happen as he envisions it, the state of Israel "is done for". Yes, indeed these are colossal political mistakes, stemming out of a politician who may be smart in surviving, but is clumsy and outright irresponsible in diplomacy. Stop seraching the roots of his mistakes in that ridiculous claim that he (or Tzipi Livni) are a "post-Zionists". See Olmert as an unfit leader. He proved it in summer 2006 in Lebanon, and proved it ever since. If he was a fit, deep-thinking, selfless leader, who had courage (not just Chutzpah) and wisdom (not just street-cat wit for political survival) Arens wouldn't be doing this absurd claim, but applaud him for his ideology.

and as such he is not able to address the Palestinian question in any form that might grant them rights as this article sadly confirms.

..there was already people living where you believe you have a moral right to live. I would love to know what you believe to be the rights of the indigenous population and what you believed you were entitled to do with those people.

It's not surprising at all that Arens labels Olmert, Livni and Yuli Tamir POST-ZIONISTS. The current Israel government has denied his request to convert his Settler's College at Ariel [Ariel University Center, West Bank] into an independent university! You see, Prof. Moshe Arens is the Chairman of the Board of Governors of this institute. He is also bitter because Yuli Tamir has included in the school curriculum the study of the Palestinian "narrative". He doesn't believe that Palestinians have any roots in Israel. What about the story of their persecution by in 1947 and 1948? Is he afraid that Jewish children will learn how Irgun, Stern and Hagan "troops" used to terrorize Palestinians? He calls the Palestinian narrative a pack of lies! Apparently, he has forgotten that he was born and raised in Kaunas, Lithuania. How, on earth, is it possible that a Lithuanian will have roots in Israel, but Palestinians will have no history whatsoever?

Omar, it is a very clever saying, "Barukh HaShemites". Haven't heard it before. If it also applies to the Hashim dynasty, I would write it as "Barukh Hashemites". As far as Likud, there is slow progress, but they are always behind the times of course. Begin, Shamir and Arens did not formally give up on the right to the East Bank of the Jordan, but let it go as a practical idea. Likud under Netanyahu is even willing to compromise on some parts of the West Bank that were already handed over (areas B and C) although they would not admit it in public. Sharon did admit that he wanted a collection of disjointed Bantustans in the West Bank (and Gaza). Progress has to be initiated by the other parties in Israel, and against Likud. If it were up to them there would be no peace.

I have some news for you, victor Hardhead, about Likud positions which differ from yours. Coming from the Soviet wasteland you don't know much about Judaism and lack the proper ideology; what you know is Soviet brutality and you imagine that Arens is your soulmate. Forget it. He is US educated and will not tolerate you too well. Here is were you disagree: 1. You live in 1922, and haven't heard of the Geneva Convention (1949) which forbids the expulsion of an occupied population. Arens and Likud are a little more modern, so they don't accept transfer; especially Arens the Western-educated. 2. You think that Likud agrees to the 1922 division which left Eastern Eretz Israel in the hands of Jordan. Forget it; Likud does not accept it. They have never given up Jewish right to the full ancestral home of the Jews, especially not to the land of the tribes of Reuben, Gad, and half of Manasseh east of the Jordan. Give them some credit for knowledge of Jewish history. Talk to Arens the Neanderthal and see if you can come to some deal with HIM. Then come back and bother the rest of us.

"In Black September 1970 the Palestinians raised to take their land. A day will come when the Palestinians will have another try, and history will correct itself." (A. Zekaria) Akram dear, don't put so much faith in Nostradamus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostradamus

"History must be taken into account. Look at Serbia & Bosnia." (A. Zekaria) I just did, and like anyone in his right mind, what I saw is a country who tried hard, to subdue another people to its will. In vain. All it succeded to achieve was its democratically elected leader sitted in infamy, in The Hague. Akram, your unconditionnable love, not of Israel, but of our leadership (when will you learn to distinguish between them?) has made you unable to see correctly. Our own leaders have been trying too, and after 60 years, are still trying. And never has their own failure to subdue another people to their will, been so apparent as today. Your, and Moshe Arens' dream of a Jewish state, pushing three and a half million Palestinian across the river Jordan, will never come true. Thank God for that.

purge the evil from among you.

So, we have confirmation from Moshe Arens that Israel never had any intention of abiding by the UN Resolution 181 of Novemeber 1947, even though it had publicly accepted it. It does explain why Israel declared unilateral indepedence in 1948, so it would not have to follow through with its commitment to abide by the UN partition line, but instead grab as much extra land as it could. It is clear this declaration of independence was in fact an act of war. Thanks to Moshe, we can chalk up another war of agression started by Israel to add to the list of 1955, 1967, 1982, and 2006.

Don't put Herzl into the same league with Jabotinsky. Herzl wanted a liberal democracy where the "priests" would be kept in their "temples' and the politicians in their parliament i.e. separation of religion and state. Today the "priests" or their proxies sit in parliament and run a very "unliberal" state. David

This Arens' article (and similar ones) are the last kicks of that classical breed of herutnik right wing thinking as cheered by Begin (father and son), Shamir, Arens and the pre 1990's likud (including Olmert at the time). Even the present continuation of that likud, Mr Bibi, knows now that there is another people living there, that he can't annex the whole of the land and that Jordan is NOT Palestine and will not do Israel's dirty work. But myths and tales die hard: some folks still believe that Elvis is alive, so it's not surprising that other folks still regard Olmert as a post-zionist betrayer of the real McCoy. Poor Mr Arens, it's hard to get used to oblivion.

To Tod Zukerman: At least with a used car salesman, you get a used car. With the appeaser (to Bush and Condi), and the naive Livni (I mean she is a jerk), Israel will give it away and get more violence in return. Every dunam of land relinquished to date, to the Palis, has resulted in (their) beefing up an army, for the final jihad someday. They say so, up front, no equivocation. At least Hamas and Hez are honest. Syria wants the Golan AND the relocation of it's so-called Palestinian population (now 500,000). Same applies to Lebanon. Iran plans on 50,000 centrifuges with 2 years (to make 10 bombs-year). They still claim it is for "peaceful purposes". Oh come on. Israel still has the high ground and the tanks. However, it lacks the will and determination to end this war once and for all. Time is running out on it. A Palis state will unite with Gaza...into one loose entity..tanks and jet fighter plans will arrive from Syria, Iran and Egypt. Then all hell will break out.

Extremely well-said. Amen.

is a fact of history. It is also'a mistake of History'that it needs to be corrected like all other facts & mistakes in History.The similarity is; Serbia & Bosnia, Iraq& Arabs-Sunnis/Shi'at & Kurds,the USSR which was disintegrated into different repubics over night.All these are facts of history and history corrected itself.Jordan was not there before 1922.Today 50% of Jordan are Palestinians & 100# of Jordan is Palestine. In Black September 1970 the Palestinians raised to take their land.They failed but not for ever.A day will come when the Palestinians will have another try and history will correct itself.If it wasn't for the election system in Jordan almost a month ago,Jordan would have been in a different regim today.All Arab countries will see changes in the next10 years and that include Jordan.Read 'Palestine Facts'. Jordan is Palestine and it will be Palestine one day.The present conflict was made difficult because the land was already divided.

Peace will come to Israel asfter the Saudi King, the country of democracy and freedom for women will say stop the slaughter of jews. Don't rush to make a peace celebration party. It will happen in 100 years.

Olmert talks like a used car salesman - a dumb used car salesman. Livni acts like a weak, no nothing. The twosome petrify Israel's supporters in the diuaspora.

Golly Walter, that was a very nice extensive false quote you posted there. Listen, Coretta and MLK Jr. indicate the letter is a fake. She said so many times before she died. Stop trying to use poor dead MLK to support Zionist BS. He would have never supported what is going on over there. Instead, he would have stood shoulder to shoulder with Tutu condemning Zionism and its practices. Shame on you. If you had googled, you would have seen the letter was a fraud before you published it, yet again. Zionists must really be desperate for support since they well know the letter is a fraud, Coretta having said so many times before her death. Shame on you. Regards.

If you can't accept the 'Jordan is Palestine' issue is dead now for over 20 years and Jordan will not be giving birth to it again in the next 20 years then it is you who have lost your mind.

Only Jews that beleive that; Eretz Isreal belongs to the Jews,beause of religious and historical reasons have a right to live in Israel.All others should get Hamas approval to live there.

I fear that Arens and his kind have one ultimate objective - to cleanse all the land between the river and the sea of Palestinians, or as much of them as possible to be able to annex everything. If they can't do it forcefully, then they'll just impose the harshest conditions until people are forced to leave for their own sanity or survival. This is what has been going on for the past 7 years. The Hashemites in Jordan, who historically colluded with the early Zionists and with Israel, will probably play a role. As they say in Odessa: Barukh HaShemites. As for the neanderthal label: Arens is in his twilight, and will never be able to force his ideology on Israel in order to create a situation where division of the land becomes impossible and Palestinians have no choice but to ask for one-person, one-vote in all the land, thus destroying the Jewish state as an unintended consequence. For that, we have Netanyahu.

The present Israeli government is not just Post-zionist, it is Post -Israe

Arens again echoes a right-wing mantra (no surprise there) when he reminds us of the British Mandate "which gave international recognition to the rights of the Jewish people to Palestine and Jewish settlement on the land. These rights were not limited to the UN partition lines, nor to the 1949 armistice lines. As a matter of fact, they included what is today the Kingdom of Jordan." So now we are to implement dictates that emerged during the days of the British Empire, according to Arens. Let me remind Arens of another British directive: Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli's own assertion that "India is the Jewel of the British Crown". So if Arens and his right-wing supporters will dare to argue that India still belongs to the United Kingdom, then I as a Palestinian will take Arens a bit more seriously. But selective arguments born out of expansionist racist ideologies (as nicely described by him above) are ... just that.

in looking for a solution to the arab problem it has to do with arabs and not jews! the land was partitioned in 1922 and a state created for arabs ONLY it is judenrein. if moving refugees is under discussion there is nothing to advance it to moving arabs to arab territory !

Arens writes: "At Annapolis, Olmert expressed his sympathy for the suffering of the Palestinian people, without bothering to mention that this suffering had been the direct result of decades-long Arab attempts to destroy the Jewish state, and was their own fault." It is the Palestinians' fault that Arabs had tried to destroy Israel? Any Palestinian will tell you that 'Arabs' would sooner destroy Palestine than the Jewish state. If anything, Israel and the 'Arab States' are equally to blame for imposing suffering on Palestinians, a blame surpassed only by ourselves, who let ourselves be footballed around by our neighbours on all sides since the 1910s. As for 'Israeli terror', this may be an abominable phrase to those of you living on the outside, but to Palestinians, it is as apt a phrase as 'Palestinian terror' is to many of you.

Well stated.Facts on the ground and the uS $ are real world factors as well as demographics/ Ayalon and Olmert have talked about the israel is finished topic. I agree with you about the negotiating stance of livni, who may have some points but is seen to be appeasing which doesn't cut it. Note that both Olmert and livni are lawyers who are not bad with words and cases, but not with real world land development, tanks and war. Livni is a real negative surprise as we would have thought she might have had future. First she backed down like a coward after demanding that Olmert resign. Then she follows him almost word for word on the concession business. Olmert is doing this mostly for himself since it is the only way he could rehabilitate if peace worked out. Livni doe not have her own position. Complaining why the saudis didn't shake her hand is ridiculous.She should have resigned after the lebanon war as she should have stopped Olmert who was a runaway train.

Never mind the exaggeration of calling Olmert and Livni "post-Zionists" and dexribing their position as "Now along come Olmert and Livni and maintain that it is wrong for Jews to be living beyond the 1949 armistice lines, and that this wrong has to be corrected by the uprooting of settlements." Note that Olmert and Livni want to keep big settlements blocks inside Israel, so that they do not "sanctify" the Green Line. But Arens the Neanderthal is against ANY DIVISION of the land. What would he do with the 4 million Palestinians living in the Territories (added to the 1.4 Israeli Arabs), Arens doesn't tell us and doesn't know himself. Had he had a clue, the Likud would have come up with such a plan in its last 30 years of being politically dominant in Israel. Let us recall that the achievement of a Jewish State was the result of a compromise, agreeing to the Partition of the Land. This is not post-Zionism but mainstream practical Zionism. Had the Neanderthals Arens and Begin had any political influence in pre-state Israel, there would not have been a state. Begin later showed he could learn a little (just a bit) and concluded a peace with Egypt. Guess what, Arens voted against that peace agreement. A pure-blooded Neanderthal.

Cancelling the settlement system is not a double standard. The recent system is not a claim of the right to live in Palestine for the Jews;, It is a claim fo the right to do so while limiting the legal rights of the other people there-- to vote, buy land, keep land, and more. The Arabs of Israel neither have nor claim this right over Israel.

How can the PA set up a democratic state if it will be illegal for any Jew to live there? If 16% of Israelis are Arabs, why can't 16% of Pals be Jews? When Jordan was set up it was ruled that no Jew could live there. Why is democrcay and tolerance a one way street? Even in ancient Jewish towns like Hebron and Bethlehem? If we are to make concessions on Jerusalem, why isn't the PA making concessions on Hebron and Bethlehem? Is there a double standard?

No article can summes up the present lamentable situation than this one of Moshe Arens. Israel lost its soul and now is about to lose its mind. A History of 3000 years is sold for a fige leaf.It will NOT wash.It will NOT bring Peace and it will just return the closk back.Israel without Zionism is a country without roots. "As a matter of fact,they included what is today Kingdom of Jordan". Isn't that tells all the story. The Left has taken Israel to a closed alley and not to a Road Map that goes to nowhere.Two State of what ? Of people at each other throats ? History must be taken into account.Look at Serbia & Bosnia.Look at Labanon.Look at Iraq.Look at the USSR that vanishes over night. Didn't all that tell something that worth telling. Jordan was NOT created from thin air. A land which is 100% Palestine & 2/3 Palestinians can't be called nothing than Palestine.Today Israel is Govern by blind, self interest politicians playing music chairs Moshe Arens thank you.

The 'joke', if any, will be on the settlers - though one should not expect Mr Arens to see it. He would not like to be reminded how many settlers were 'bribed' by previous governments to settle beyond the Green Line, and in Rafiah, by cheaper house, tax exemptions, etc. Would it not be poetically fitting if many of those same settlers now moved back to within the Green Line, for the same reason - money?? (nothing to do with post-, or any other Zionism)

Arens is brilliant as usual whose analysis of the issues is as sharp as a razor blade. This is a Must Read for all Israelis. Israelis should wake up and defend their homeland from dismemberment by entities from within and without. Israelis should say NO to the internal and external forces that are trying to dismember Israel and further reduce Israel into a tiny indefensible enclave surrounded by a sea of pernicious Arab Islamist-Jihadists. It is time Israelis have strong leaders who will defend the nation from their pernicious enemies-Antisemites and Islamist-Jihadists who were in cahoots in exterminating 6 million Jews in the Holocaust in WWII.

Arens moans and drones but offers no alternative, practical vision. The truth is, Zionism is an anachronism that has long been discredited. Not only out of step with human values, but also impossible to implement under stable conditions. The sooner the likes of Arens stop flogging this dead horse, the better for everyone! Time is up for zionism, apartheid and similar ideologies.

Just because you have a right to do something, it doesn't mean you have a right to do anything else you want while you're doing it. As Arens knows and would concede, the right to enter a place or to purchase land doesn't come with the right to, say, rape or enslave the other people there. While that example is not real, some of us also happen to believe that this right doesn't include the right to, say, tax the other people and not allow them a voice in how the taxes are used, or to deny them their own right to purchase state land. To end the previous abusive arrangement per se would not be "ethnic cleansing", if the Jews are allowed to stay and live in the same conditions as the Palestinians, or if the Palestinians are granted the same rights as the Jews. Arens is aware of all this and therefore his plea is a (not-very-skillful) piece of demagoguery.

Moshe Arens's article excellent! Every place the Israelis give up become closed to us (as it was from 1948 to 1967)! Who does not want Jews living(and building homes) all over Israel does not know what PEACE is about! All the Arabs I know in Jerusalem's Old-City want to live with the Israelis! But who asks them?!

I welcome Mr Arens' implication that Jordan/Israel/PA terroritory should perhaps become one jurisdiction. I like that, as long as it becomes a state for the benefit of ALL its citizens EQUALLY, and not just a "Jewish State". If however he is going to talk about "transfer", Jewish-only settlements, and/or a multi tier system of rights in which Jews occupy - no pun - the top tier then he should stop whining like a retired baby, and keep his dreams to himself.

"Now along come Olmert and Livni and maintain that it is wrong for Jews to be living beyond the 1949 armistice lines, and that this wrong has to be corrected by the uprooting of settlements." (M. Arens) Yes, it is wrong "for Jews to be living beyond the 1949 armistice lines", and yes, this wrong "has to be corrected by the uprooting of settlements." The sooner the better. Yes and yed and yes. The only alternative, as carefully as dishonestly ignored by Arens, is a "One State for Two Peoples" between the sea and the river, where the Jews would have to choose between being a minority ruling over a majority of Arabs, or consenting to be ruled by them. An impossible choice, and the surest way to have future historians talking about the whole Zionist enterprise as the Jewish people's most silliest mistake ever.

Yes, I remember them too, altough it's a little bit far back. The others, in fact, had got drunk in a nice little bar in the Haifa harbour district the night before they returned. In order to save such places from Moses the Bore they decided to make up a story about the incredible dangers of Kanaan. Joshua and Caleb, not the brightest members of the team, did not get it, or, let's say, they were not invited to the party, and spoilt the nice conspiracy. So the troubles began.

is that they need war, because there is no way people would follow them in peace. that applies to all sides in a conflict. once people have more choices than for or against, hard liners get marginalized.

Well there, Mr. Arens, I'm interested to read that you're so strongly in favour of granting Israeli citizenship to all those resident in the West Bank. Sorry, I didn't hear you say that? No, but it's the only way that what you write is compatible with Jewish teachings, or with manifest moral and legal requirements. So if you didn't mean that .... well, I'm afraid that calling the state you want to create an apartheid one is being rather too nice to it.

Kallis Ivar, kuidas kasi kaab Eestis? I've lived in Estonia 30 years, and I have not met anybody whose name is Ivar - it sounds more Latvian, I guess. Anyway, I am curious why do you choose to participate in this Israeli debate, while there exists a similar on in Estonoia-settlers, occupation, building fence, discrimination etc.

Caleb & Joshua were the only ones out of 12 who came back to Moses with a good report. They said "yes, it's good & we can live in the land despite the odds." Bibi & Moshe Arens bring good reports. I'm glad someone is. I still believe like I personally said to Mrs. Begin years ago, "G-d is on our side... it's true... it's true." Moses A, you're as good as Moses in the Torah! Yashar Koah!

like so many lunatics who type inanities to these columns dirk only asks for human rights in one direction ! stop showing your rabid anti semitism !

andreas try reading the balfour declaration the binding treaty of san remo 1922 mandate anglo american convention 1924

It is time that you simply admit that your dream of a Greater Land of Israel is no longer achievable and that justice is not nor has not always been on your side.

Post-Zionists "believed that Zionism had been one big mistake that now needed to be rectified, and the Palestinian population compensated for the wrongs that had been committed in the name of Zionism - by replacing the Jewish state with a Palestinian one." That's hardly Olmert and Livni, is it. Olmert and Livni would I'm sure, love a maximalist Israel that covers all of the 1920 Palestine Mandate, however, they've realized unlike Arens, that permanent war will lead to Israel going the way of the Crusader Holy Land state. Modern Israel has to develop links with its neighbours and more secure roots in the area. If it continues to rely just on military might, as the Crusaders did, one day, Israel will get unlucky and the military balance will change and Israel will be gone. War is not the answer Arens. If it was, Israel's overwhelming regional superiority of the last 20 years would have brought it security. Try peace for a change.

The scenario is that simple, and simply certain: Bad neighbours inevitably will arouse the entire neighbourhood against them. In the case of nations, this means war. This is inescabable. And the truth is inescabable to all but religious fanatics. God was not on the side of Israel when he sent Jonah to Nineveh. God was not on the side of Judah when he sent them Jeremiah with the command to not resist the invasion of Nebuchadnezzar, and go peacefully into captivity. And Moses was not on the side of Israel when he warned them of permanent national exile as a consequence of failure to represent the true nature of God to the world, as his missionaries. Jeremiah confirmed this in God's parable of the potter's power over the clay, to discard the failed pot, and create another in its place. MATTHEW 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!

It is simply not true to state that post zionists object to every measure taken in Israel's defence, furthermore to state that any politician who supports territorial withdrawal is post zionist is just plain wrong. You make sweeping assumptions about a movement you clearly do not know much about, or if you do your hard right ideology has blinded you. For someone working for an academic centre (albeit the ariel centre) you should know better than to produce a sloppy a piece like this with sloppy unsupported assumptions, such as the claim that the policy of the present government is a departure from the Zionism of Herzl (how on earth did you reach that bizarre conclusion?) All the right wingers here will love you, but im sorry this is a very very poorly written piece.

...a dime to the settlers! This is the strategy: Let the PA Police start to build road blocks on the roads to the settlements. Deliver some cranes and trucks to the PA authority, so the Palestinians can remove the separation walls. The concrete wall elements, will thereafter be placed around the settlements. If the settlers want to leave a settlement, they will be investigated and questioned by the Palestinian border Police and before the settlers are permitted to pass, they must wait for five hours or more, before the gates are being opened. Next step: the Palestinians should start to cut-off the electricty, by removing the power lines. The Palestinians will say: Israel had not asked for permission to build a power network, thus the powerlines are illegal. Trust me, within 3 months all settlers will be running for Tel-Aviv. So why pay the settlers, if the settler problem can be solved much cheaper? Let the Palestinians treat the settlers the way Israel is treating the Palestinians.

in any case. And that for them this war is not over (that's what they mean with "Jordan is Palestine"), and that the goal of Zionism justifies everything. Thank you, Mr. Arens, for beeing so frank.

"Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend" "... You declare, my friend; that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist'. And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of G-d's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews -- this is G-d's own truth. "Anti-Semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agree-ment. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently anti-Semitic, and ever will be so. "Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tryant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered our L-rd. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them. "The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested -- DEMANDED -- the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country. "How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfillment of G-d's promise, that His people should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land. This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less. "And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is anti-Semitism. "The anti-Semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the anti-Semite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerrade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'! "My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate anti-Semitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled -- as others have been -- into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to those heartfelt principles that you and I share. Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews -- make no mistake about it." Return to Studies Page From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review XLVII (August 1967), pg. 76 Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.")

Repeatedly, Israeli right wingers, and fanatical zionists have fixated on One State from the Jordan to the sea. Dividing the land has never been acceptable. Clearly the status quo is a one-state apartheid state, which will bring apartheid consequences, and eventually war which will mushroom into mushroom clouds over Israel. National suicide, by bang or whimper. Dividing the land is not neccessarily abandoning a homeland for the Jewish people. On the contrary, wise and humane forthcoming to their Arab neighbours will insure the peace, security, and prosperity of Israel. The status quo is a fast track to oblivion for Israel.

Herzl, Jabotinsky and Ben-Gurion may also have been forced to adjust their ideals to reality if they were faced with the same pressures as Olmert. Unfortunately the days are past when Israel could do as it pleased with only minor rumblings in the far distance. There is great pressure from the International community on Israel to reach some form of agreement with the pals. Israelis are much less idealistic and patriotic than in the good old days of Herzl and co. Maybe in years to come the Israelis have grown so tired of the Zionest Idea that they just throw everything overboard. You never know how things will change. Let Olmert go to the table while he still has a full deck of cards to play. Don't wait until there is nothing left to fight for or until there is no will to fight anymore. Israel is going to have to compromise somewhere. The pressure is not goig to be lifted. Israel should have the courage to face the facts and negotiate now from a position of power. Don't wait.

So if it is wrong for any Jew to be living on the east side of the 1949 armistice line, why wasn't there any peace between the years 1949 and l967, when the Six-Day War occurred? For sure, no Jewish person was living there. A second question is why did Jordan attack Israel during the Six-Day War if its goal was peace?