The humanitarian aid legend

Regarding post #10 - Three cheers! It is you, shlomo, who is repeating lies. What of all the UN resolutions against Israel for exactly the reasons stated? Why don't you Israeli's face up to your crime, instead of perpetuating it. I am not looking forward to the day when my children are called to fight a war caused by your greed and lies.. Everyone should look here: www.cactus48.com/truth.html

Come to visit us, you are welcome...and enjoy...we no afraid about terrorism...just little accidents...drivers more dangerous...

Thanks for all lecons given from Israelis to Palestinian ....but i am puzeled with one lecon for Israelis to learn ...Israel was established in order to protect jews in danger all over the world .....NOW Israel is the most dangerus place for Jews ....is it what you looking for ..??????

The Palestinians are merely its victims

its a cycle, brainiac! who is to say one party deserves the land more than the othe! jews (not israelis, since israel didnt exist ten) murdered palestinians throughout the years... kufr qassem, for example. they lined the men up and shot them. barbaric! yet no-one remembers that. or Sabra and Chatilla... nope! no memory. or Qana, when Peres ordered the bombing of UN location in southern lebanon.... nope, no memory there either. don't attack one side and make excuses for the other. they are BOTH GUILTY!!!!!!

you folks know NOTHING, repeat NOOOOTTTHHHIIIING about the Arab-Israeli struggle. none of you reads histor books; and if you do, you only read YOUR books. shame shame. people writing their opinions here are hate-mongers, envious, with murderous intentions. punishing a people because they democratically elected their officials is NOT an option. put yourself in their shoes: land taken away from you; stripped of dignity; stripped of basic rights; treated as inferior; labeled as terrorist. what would you do? well, jews did do something... they fought in 1945, grabbed someone else's land, created a country. what should Palestinians do?

"They have to be changed or eliminated" I really enjoyed reading your article all but this point. Being a "humanitarian aid worker" (always put in brackets) you quickly realize what a contradiction aid really is, and why not throw liberal democracy in the equation aswell. If I had to vote a certain way in order to eat or receive medicine I would vote against humanitarian genororsity.

"The way I personally interpret this is that there must be a minimum of goodness in the world in order for the world to survive" That's absolutely beautiful! Thanks so much for your post. :) Fascinating.

"The closures and checkpoints are needed to protect Israeli citizens from terror within Pal territories and penetrations into Israel..." Can the crap TonyL. If the check points are for security then why can they be bypassed by taking a longer more circuitous route? I experienced this several times during my visits to Palestine. When was the last time you visited Palestine to learn the facts? Oh I forgot, you pro-Israel dim-bulbs just turn on Fox News to get all the "facts" you need. The check points and closure are for one reason only - to humiliate the Palestinians and show them who's boss.

Cipora, thank you for your post, I haven't been ignoring you, I just felt you put matters clear enough that no response was needed. I did not want to get into an analysis of the listed 'proofs' as an internet talkback is hardly the place to conduct years of study, but I think you said things rather succinctly and correctly. well put.

Muslim extremists have cooperated closely with Nazis since the 1930s. A relevant example here is the Islamist Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini, founder of the Palestinian movement and Yasser Arafat's mentor and hero and who was one of the leading architects, if not the leading architect, of Hitler's Final Solution (despite being less well-known than Adolf Eichman). Hajj Amin was a top Nazi. Meeting with Hitler in 1941, the Mufti begged him to invade the Middle East and exterminate the one million Jews still living in Arab-dominated lands. Hitler promised to put the Mufti in charge of the killing. Then the Mufti went to Bosnia, where he organized thousands of Muslim volunteers into the Nazi SS Handzar Division, and the Nazi SS Freiwilligen-BH-Gebirgs-Division. They hunted down Yugoslav Serbs, Jews and Roma (Gypsies), slaughtering them in their homes, or in the Jasenovac death camps of the Ustashe (Croatian Nazis). The Mufti intervened with pro-Nazi governments in Eastern Europe, making sure that additional hundreds of thousands of Jews were shipped to the death camps.

Arabs are the only citizens of the Israel that are not required to serve in the Army or even perform community service in lieu of Army service. While Jewish boys are required to be at risk and sacrifice the best three years of their lives in full time Army service, the Israeli government in a reverse discrimination policy provides University education gratis to Arab adolescents. Israeli Arabs derive all the benefits of citizenship without assuming the obligations of citizenship. Jews should have this same option.

The seven Noahide commendments come from Genesis, chapter 9. They are: 1) to establish courts of law 2) not to commit blasphemy 3) not to commit idolatry 4) not to commit incest 5) not to commit bloodshed 6) not to commit robbery 7) not to it flesh cut from a living animal It is said that these laws apply to all people, and all people who follow these commendments have a place in the world to come. Tzaddik is a righteous person. According to the Talmud and the Kabbalah, there are thirty six HIDDEN Tzaddikim. If not for them, the world could not exist. They are not known to others, and not known to themselves either. I do not have the exact reference, but thirty six is an important number in Jewish religion. Why they are hidden is easier to understand. If they could be known, others could claim to be them. The way I personally interpret this is that there must be a minimum of goodness in the world in order for the world to survive. But then, I am neither Rabbi, nor knowledgable.

This Christian will always be grateful to the Jewish people for the gift of ethical monotheism. It is Biblical principles that guide my moral compass. And unless one can affirm the moraly good and condemn the morally evil, religion is worthless, is it not?

It saddens me to see how far the proud Arab civilization and culture have fallen. From the preservers of ancient Classical knowledge and great innovators in the fields of medicine, science and poetry, it has descended into a Goebbels-like fantasy world where pathological liars thrive. See #124 for an example. Claim: Israel is a racist state that practices apartheid and genocide. Fact: Israel includes 850,000 arab citizens, some of which serve in the Knesset.Temple Mount is under arab control, courtesy of the racist Israelis. In contrast, no Jew is welcome in arab lands. No bible or church is permitted in the Saudi paradise. When the Arabs controlled east Jerusalem, no Jew was permitted at the holiest site in all Judaism..the Western Wall. So who are the racists, the practitioners of apartheid? When two peoples have legitimate claims to a single land, a civilized solution is to divide the land for both. The Jews accepted this solution in 1948; the Arabs refused.

Well, someone finally said it. THE PALESTIANS ELECTED HAMAS - A TERROR GROUP - AS THEIR "POLITICAL" LEADER. No Sh**. Therefore, the majority of Palestinians support terrorism against Israel. The (majority of) Palestinians and Hamas are AN INDIVISIBLE WHOLE. The opinions of Hamas = the opinion of Palestians and vice versa. Simple logic dictates this. I love all this talk of "let's shun Hamas" but help the poor Palestinian people. They put themselves in this situation. Of course, they think, rather subversively and manipulatingly, that it makes no difference to anyone that matters (the West and even Israel) because the terror group, Hamas, now has legitimacy - elected by them - and, in the end, they will get the aid anyway. What does all this say? The Palestinians wish, like Hamas has avowed, to destroy the state of Israel. They think, or they have calculated, that they will get away with it - as Hamas prepares itself strategically and hides behind political immunity.

You make the case for me, rather than contest my point. "Israel would be happy to accept any secure borders. Problem now is that accepting 1967 borders would be a clear invitation for a war. Arabs will immidiately start talking about "weak Zionist enemy"." It's all about being seen as a more powerful nationalism. The idea that occupying foreign lands is required for securing the nation state, is similar to the polity of Assyria and Tsarist Russia.

THERE IS SO MUCH DECEIT. THE PLO IN THE PAST WOULD CALL JESUS THE FIRST PALESTINIAN. IF YOU REPEAT A LIE OFTEN IT BECOMES ACCEPTED AS TRUTH. IT IS THE JEWISH PEOPLE THAT ARE THE TRUE NATIVES OF THE LAND OF ISRAEL. DURRING THE ROMAN TIMES, THE LAND WAS CALLED JUDEA. THE ROMANS CHANGED THE NAME TO PALESTINE. THE ROMANS DO NOT EXIST ANYMORE BUT THE JEWS ARE STILL AROUND.

"It is said that there are thirty six Tzadicim in the world whose identity cannot be known. So few Tzadicim to keep the world going. The Almighty does not ask for much: the seven Noahic laws, and thirty six Tzadicim." I've never heard this before. Can you please tell me where this is from? Thanks. :)

Without doubt, Judaism gave the world monotheism. Jesus was born a Jew, and he died a Jew. I have not read the NT, so cannot comment on it. Indeed, I am not an expert on religion. I know little, but hopefully that which is essential. It would not satisfy a rabbi, but it might satisfy the Almighty. Regards, Cipora

You have observed Student's lack of first hand Talmudic knowledge. (Haven't we all.) But you pretend that there is some equality between laws for Jews and non-Jews. Your example is even taken from the 10 commandments, "thou shall not murder", etc. But as I mentioned before in post #118, the 10 commandments obligate Jews only, as Student correctly stated. Gentiles are not allowed to kill as part of the separate Noahide Laws. What about killing a Jew, vs. killing a Gentile? The murder of a Jew is a capital offense. But if a Jew murders a Gentile, he is only guilty of a sin against heaven, not punishable by court. (See Maimonides, Yad, "Laws on Murderers" 2:11.)

All they had to do was sign a "partition treaty" and allow diaspora Jews to migrate into their half of the land. But they were not hospitable enough to welcome fellow "northern semites" into their common ancestry homeland. Not like Auckland A? Now Palestinians have 20% of the land and it's occupied by the IDF. Talk about consequences.

Hello Cipora Well said,and I do not have to go into great detail what the Torah teaches.You in your inimitable way described it.Thank you my dear lady.I will only go to just the most important aspect of the whole,what the teachings are.Moral in every way that has been continued through the millenia in The Holy Bible. We have given the world "Monotheism" and as far as I am concerned The ten Comandements" are by what us and the rest of the world has as a good example to adhere and live by.No other religion has this. Christianity through Jesus who followed it verbatim.All Jesus tought was drawn verbatim from the teachings of our prophets in our Holy Bible.He did not deviate from it one iota,I should know,because I studied the NT well,and can compare it...

Hello Cipora Well said,and I do not have to go into great detail what the Torah teaches.You in your inimitable way described it.Thank you my dear lady.I will only go to just the most important aspect of the whole,what the teachings are.Moral in every way that has been continued through the millenia in The Holy Bible. We have given the world "Monotheism" and as far as I am concerned The ten Comandements" are by what us and the rest of the world has as a good example to adhere and live by.No other religion has this. Christianity through Jesus who followed it verbatim.All Jesus tought was drawn verbatim from the teachings of our prophets in our Holy Bible.He did not deviate from it one iota,I should know,because I studied the NT well,and can compare it...

What "refugeeship"? Britain banned Jewish refugees entry to Palestine after 1939, even to holocaust survivors. The local Arab majority opposed Jewish migration (name any Arab state which takes in non Arab migrants/refugees as citizens? -talk about racist?). Yet to be a Jewish national homeland, Palestine had to take in Jewish migrants, particularly refugees. This was the Balfour declaration basis of the subsequent League of Nations mandate. While this can be called of the colonialist era, the UN determined the only realistic option was partition. Ben Gurion was only acting within international law when he founded the Jewish state.

Israel would be happy to accept any secure borders. Problem now is that accepting 1967 borders would be a clear invitation for a war. Arabs will immidiately start talking about "weak Zionist enemy". Live with it - it is deep within Arab culture. Once Arafat refused to get state within 1967 borders it is over and it is off the table.

Proud Zionist Point taken,but they will never acknowledge it,for the sipmle reason they have nothing to offer the world.And I am not talking about the PALs,but the rest of the twenty two other Arab states who have remained backwards.I am pleased you pointed out their misbehaviour with luxurious lifestyles,their sartorially well endowed,obvious custom of drinking and frequenting the usual low dives which is well known in many parts of the world.This just shows their disdain by whicch they show toward their poor counterparts and hold them with contempt.Using them as pawns to uphold them in their present state of poverty. It shows their hypocrisy through and trough.Apart from this obvious fact they hold their Pal' brethren to prove a point in an attempt by using them as pawns,and that is what I call discrimatory. On someone here bringing up the Torah: What was the point of it?We can be secular and very patriotic,not only by our history,achievemnets...

Right, I've seen the bit about the Talmud advocating killing goyim, etc. in the Der Sturmer edition of the Talmud. Nazi propaganda was filled with this sort of crap. It gets regularly recycled by anti-semites of all sorts. I also have studied the REAL Talmud, the one that real Jews wrote. There is absolutely nowhere in it that ANY crimes are justified, whether it be against Jews or non-Jews. Notice that in the Bible, there are no qualifications or exceptions to "thou shall not murder", and "thou shall not steal". You obviously wouldn't even recognize a book of the Talmud if you fell over one. What the heck is "Baba Zohar"??

COuldn't have said it better myself--and I have. BTL http://bloodthirstyliberal.com

Gabe 1 Absolutely spot on! To Jordan they must venture,and sooner or later this will be the destination. We want total divorce pure and simple...

I sympathize with the Jews of Israel but not w/ sophistic hasbara fallacies I wish Pals were more empathic - but they knew newcomers were not coming just as refugees but to form separatist state, starting 40 yrs before Holocaust as econ. apartheid (buying Arab land on oath not to sell back), knew it was about more than refugees but Herzl's The Jewish State If Ben-Gurion had accepted mere refugeeship But he insisted on more - secession from Palestine Knew it would mean war, but did it anyway If Israel apologized for some suffering; it won`t Annexing Jerusalem & 450,000 settlers - irrelevant to security Are Pals -- unlike say Kuwaitis -- the only people who can`t resist? The only dif is they lost Would *Israel* have accepted Barak's offer? BASIC Q that no one asks I refute Zionist illogic But doing ONLY that is loveless Legal claims aren't everything Love says Jews are there & 2 viable states may be most realistic & humanly decent answer

Julia and Sameer The Israelis would not like nothing better than be rid of the troublesome lot.I do not think for one moment the word inferior comes into the equasion.And you name the various countries as though it has any bearing to the PALs v.c the Israeli persepective. Think again before you utter such dispropotionate comparisons. thank you

Sameer The first thing you ought to do,is not exaggerate your numbers friend.4 million is a bit beyond credibility.So,lower it if I were you.It doesn't do to inflate the numbers. Everyone by now has come to this conclusion and it does not reflect the reality,and no help for your lot.Sorry,but this is the truth of the matter,and you have to live with it...

I know one Palestinian that I would vouch for as being good of heart, open-minded, and rather intelligent. Ibrahim is famous for his involvement in an organization called Jerusalem Peacemakers. I have met other Palestinians through this group, though I am less acquainted with them. I don't know if you'd call this a 'peace party', but unlike the Palestinians involved in Israel's traitorous 'left-wing' groups, the Peacemakers are only doing constructive co-existence work. check it out at www.jerusalempeacemakers.org Just so you don't imagine all Palestinians are as vile and hateful as those on this discussion board.

The Arabs that live in Israel, are not palestinians for one thing. That has to discussed, at another poll. The arabs are violent and will destroy each other. I know there history. The Jews will get all there inherited land back from the Nile to the great river Euphrates river that is a promise, and he does not go back on his Word! just sit back and faith, it will come. Wsmith

It's interesting -- facts are facts -- I've heard this too. Israel has a democracy, affluence, tolerance, efficient administration, etc. Think I've read this in the Jerusalem Post a number of times. Facts are facts. I don't object to them. I love the Jewish people of Israel. I object to fallacy-ridden hasbara arguments (as most --but NOT all -- are), not Israeli achievements and the Jewish people of Israel. "21:59 Hadash supporters protest near Umm al-Fahm against plan to annex town to PA (Itim)" Arabs living as an "oppressed minority" in Israel prefer to stay in Israel than be part of "liberated Palestine"? How could that be???

Consider Yugoslavia, as Palestine pre partition. Serbia seeking to rule wherever Serbs lived, was the policy of both Arabs and Zionists (albeit within the mandate). Zionists won the wars and became the power with the local/regional ability to draw it's own "greter Serbia" borders (eretz Israel total mandate). For nationalists on each side it's about having the more powerful nationalism - one nihilistic towards the others. De-facto eretz Israel via occupation or unitary state Palestine with Arab Jews only (without "European" Jews). A bit like stags showing off in rutting season. No wonder no one can handle inter-group dating.

Actually, it is you and your ancestors from 5th century Araby who should go back. The greatest Galileean was Jesus of Nazareth, A Jew, and he lived and died there long before Mohamed's hordes swept into the Judeo-Christian Holy Land. Jews/Hebrews have lived in Eretz-Israel from time immemorial. Much of the land was purchased from Arab land-owners from late 19th centgury until the '20s and '30s via the Jewish National Fund. You marauders were killing Jews in Hebron, long before the modern state of Israel existed. Go back to Saudi Arabia, or any of the other 22 of your "brother" states. Lots of land. But like dogs in the manger, you can't bear to share with non-Moslems, today's Herrenvolk (German for Supermen [race supremacists]). Your Hadj Amin Husseini was in bed (maybe even literally) with Hitler.

what are you proud of? suicide bombings, ?hijackings ? 911 ? Madrid ? Bali, Amman ? London? Tel Aviv? ankara? honour killings? stoning gays? Please tell us all how wonderful the arabs are !

The real problem is alien abduction. i have been "taken" at least 5 times -experimented on and impregnated. (Spealburg was right) I want to no if my alien baby will be Jewish and if so do i give it a brit?

"21:59 Hadash supporters protest near Umm al-Fahm against plan to annex town to PA (Itim)" Arabs living as an "oppressed minority" in Israel prefer to stay in Israel than be part of "liberated Palestine"? How could that be???

...third world goy...no in GOOGLE

Interesting how you choose to muddle the issues in order to favor the much more "orderly" dismantling of Israel as the ultimate solution. So let me see, Jews who either have lived there for centuries and millenia, or are descendants of Jews expelled from Israel have no claim to the land. But Arabs, many of whom came from all over the Arab world less than 100 years ago toward the economic prosperity caused by the influx of Jews are now suddenly pre-biblical Canaanites and Jebusites. Interesting. Another point of yours: Palestinians are willing to share but not divide the land. In other words, let's all live happily together until Jews are once more a minority in an Arab state. After all, God only knows how good the Jews had it as "dhimmis" in Moslem countries like Syria and Iraq. And how reassuring it would be for the Arabs to do with the Jews as they please. However hard you try, you won't convince anyone that there is any other solution but two states living in peace.

unprintable, You said, "Inalienable right of return: By your reasoning a displacement50 years old w/ people having deeds to homes should have much more inalienable right to return than 2000 years ago." You have things confused. There was no displacement in 1948. There was an all out war of arabs against the new nation of Israel. Those marauders that tried to drive Jews into the sea have no right and, in fact, should be tried for their war activities. Throughout history, numerous borders have changed as the result of war. You're just upset because the arabs gambled and lost. Too bad. Now live peacefully to maintain what you have. Future all out wars with Israel will not be pretty for the pals or arabs. We're heading there, and unfortunately, many of us will live to see it -- unless a miracle happens and the pals seek real peace. Sam

UP: As if robbers may come to anyone`s land IB: I couldn`t agree with you more. The Romans should have remained in Italy 2000 years ago ... By your own reasoning Jews have an inalienable right to come back UP: Inalienable right of return: By your reasoning a displacement50 years old w/ people having deeds to homes should have much more inalienable right to return than 2000 years ago As Erich Fromm said "If all nations would suddenly claim territory in which their forefathers had lived 2000 years ago, this world would be a madhouse" IB: "Jewish roots" UB: Read my #102. "Roots" often for less than 1% of the history of the land Zionists claim, while Palestinians never left. IB: What do you do when you have two rightful claims to the same piece of land. You divide it up. UP: NO RIGHTFUL CLAIM. I'VE PROVEN IT STILL-- PALESTINIANS *WILL--WILL* SHARE THEIR LAND BUT NOT DIVIDE IT UP ABSOLUTE MOCKERY OF JUSTICE. AND INTOLERABLE WHEN DIVIDED 80% - 20%

or are they idiots?

yezmar, Just when I think I have seen the height of ignorance, someone like you steps up and takes it to another level. Who cares what the term hebrew meant thousands of years ago. The fact is that Jews today are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc. They stayed together through the good and the bad, the exiles from their land through evil regimes like the Assyrians, the Babylonians, and the Romans. The latter dispersed them throughout the world until 1948 so what is your problem? They remained together although dispersed, bonded by a common history and desire to return home. Unlike the other semites in the area, this is a people that has contributed to civilization perhaps more than any other -- and smaller in number than most others. It must be extreme jealousy that makes you arabs and other anti-Semites hate the Jews so much. For me, I admire them greatly for what they have been through and continue to go through and that they still come out such good people

If they lost any,there would be no more problem, just millions of dead Jews as promised so often in the past by Arab leaders. The Arabs could then concentrate on doing what they do best,killing each other.

The *Pals* should have had elections long time ago, but Arafat, once he was in power, suppressed them. Hamas shouldn?t have been allowed by the Oslo Accords and the Roadmap. But the Quarted and the US decided they could. They thought Hamas wouldn?t win. I don?t know on which they based their conviction, because Hamas had won the local elections. Well, the matter is that Hamas was allowed to run and won. The terrorist organization keeps saying it won?t recognize Israel. This is the problem. The *Pals* knew what they were voting for. Hamas has never hidden its agenda. During the electoral campaign the hamas candidates speeches dealt with the goal of destroying Israel and imposing the sharia law over the *Pals*. This is what they voted for. In any case, they have voted for war against Israel. Should they expect Israel not to defend itself? --- ?Terrorists` - what do you know about the issue ?? Much more than you can imagine.

I'm sure your claim that Hamas's own charter (find it anywhere using Google) is "ancient and outdated" will come as a surprise to them. Hamas as an engine of social change. How convenient. Let's look at Hamas with new eyes. Schools, social programs, health clinics...how idyllic. A charter that calls for the physical destruction of a state? That attacks Jews as Jews? Claims of responsibility for horrific suicide bombings? Let's not look at that for now. You're absolutely right. It's the Palestinians' right to choose whomever they wish to govern them. But when that choice is a terror organization that vows "armed struggle" until Israel's demise, Israel has the right to fight those who declare war on it. I know. It was so much easier back in the good old days when Jews never put up a fight even as they were being attacked. Sorry for wanting to live.

How apporopriate that the Pals and Arab terrorist leaders take "abu" names. For it is the sins of the fathers that put the Pals in the current horrible conditions not the Israeli's. The Israeli's did not turn down a state in 47. The Israeli's did not cheer as al queda murdered thousands at the world trade center. The Pals have every right to be angry, at THEIR FATHERS. They choose a path of war and violence as opposed to diplomacy. Not once has the Israeli government said a peaceful Palestinian State does not have the right to exist. The Palestinian leaders contiue to say that of Israel today, as do their arab brethren. The Pals have studied their history...those who fail to learn from the mistakes of the history are doomed to repeat them. Or as my father defined ignorance is doing the same thing in the same situation and expecting a different result. The Pals have made the same mistakes as the fathers have, hopefully the next generation of Pals sons will not be as ignorant

WHY HAVE SO MANY ARABS VOTED WITH THEIR FEET TO LIVE UNDER THE OPPRESSIVE RACIST ZIONIST REGIME? WHY GIVEN A CHANCE DO THEY MOVE FROM THE WEST BANK TO ISRAEL? WHY HAVE NO ARABS MOVED TO THE DEMOCRATIC PA OR TO HAMASTAN? THE PALS KNOW THE TRUTH. THEIR LEADERS ARE VIOLENT LUNATICS!! WHAT A SHAME...

"23:30 IDF soldiers arrest 2 Palestinians carrying 15kg bomb at Nablus checkpoint (Haaretz)"

so lets see, because the arab nations that tried to destroy Israel now propose peace, Israel should accept? That is funny ! Although you like to believe that Israels arab neighbours are wonderful people,,,,they are not-im afraid....with many wanting to destroy Israel (and by your posts-you are one of them). It amazes me that you try to sell to the world how peaceful the palestinians are when the Hamas charter #11 calls for destruction of ISrael Only when militants are broguht to justice. Only when all militants are disarmed. Only when arabs stop calling for the destruction of Israel, you will find a partner to peace. Until then, up goes the wall higher and faster !

" THERE IS ROOM FOR ALL TO SHARE. But NOT by apartheid & subjugation by them who JUST CAME, STOLE, & HAVE NO CLAIM " Let me get this right...the arabs should allow jews to live in the surrounding countries (apartheid and all that), the arabs should leave judea,samaria and gaza, since Jordan has over 75% of what was the british mandate ( room to share and all that ) That's what sharing the land entails, but obviously that isn't what you mean. You want to keep sharing Israel until she's in the sea. That's not happening man.

Why is it not your time? What is the excuse? Are Arabs/muslims not more numerous than any other group in the world, with many countries? How much oil wealth? With repressive arab regimes and islamofacism, its not likely it will be your turn anytime soon.

"If Palestinians were suffering"...etc Please, Kim, come and join us here. I'll take you on a tour. You're so ignorant it sucks...

That you show your ignorance doesn't surprise me in the least. The fact that you totally side-stepped my post just to get to your agenda doesn't surprise me either. Do you even know what the 7 universal laws of Noah are? Do you understand the concept of those laws, whether you agree with them or not? I doubt it.

Thanks for your deep analysis, Jerome. Which drug are you on ?

"This is totally corrupt, violent,aggressive society, with genocidal ethos and with the consensual policies, which constitute crimes against humanity" This is amazing - you describe Israel's makeup perfectly. CORRUPT: almost every Israeli govt VIOLENT: jewish hate for non-jews AGGRESSIVE: expansionist settlement movement GENOCIDAL: right-wing groups gaining more and more influence in Israel CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY: charges that can be brought against Israel's top brass in almost any civilised, law abiding country

Hmmm. An Isareli actually mentioning UN and resolutions...?!!! Do you realize what you're doing ?!

Baba Zohar? Are you already in a drunken stupor for Purim? There is no such thing!!! Please, drop the pretense that you have even a vague familiarity with talmud and just stick to defaming yourself with your obvious and apparent ignorance. Besides, what it says in "baba zohar or baba o'reily" dosen't matter squat to the topic at hand.

Amira Hass is one of the most respected journalists in the world - by people who can judge things like that (that is, not you). She took the consequences of her strive for first hand information and is living in 'enemy territory'. If that's 'treason' or 'taking sides' to you - well, sorry you own the problem. You simply don't want to face facts that doesn't 'suit' you, huh ?

It's only pathetic to read your thoughts - miles away from reality. 'Terrorists' - what do you know about the issue ? Not much, it seems. Come back when you've done your homework

The Palestinians had their elections, asked for by others Israel and the US. Now the outcome was not in their liking, so they want to impose different kinds of sanctions. If you lived closer to reality, Kim, you would know that the majority of Palestinians didn't vote for Hamas because of their ancient, outdated wish to 'destroy Israel' but because they are the only strong force who can deliver services to the people without being entangled in corruption. Please, at least, give them the benefit of a doubt before you jump into stupid, prejudist conclusions which holds no support on the ground. Thanks

You sound as if you have a heavy chip on your shoulder - lots of sour grapes there. What have the Jews ever done to you? You show you know nothing about Jews, all this 'superiority' BS. You are a racist pure and simple, and possibly suffer from some envy too. Why don't you get a job and work hard to improve your life, like Jews have doe=ne time and time again throughout the centuries? It might help.

sam, first of all, you forget that "jews" don't exist...jews were originally based on the hebrew people who really are a different type of semite, just like arabs are semites, that is the truth whether you like it or not. the hebrews were just a wandering tribe like the bedouins until they saw the canaanites and decided to copy there idea..."jews" and arabs both share genetic similiarities that are hard to dispute, I bet if people really looked into it you would find that the palestinians are really leftover hebrews and arabs who mixed together and just changed with the times in order to preserve there lives and families..so really, people could argue this until there face turns blue, jews as a race, do not exist, maybe they are a cult of some sort, but they are not a race and do not constitute a true "israeli", unless israeli means "american" in hebrew because that is what this doomed project called israel really is, an attempt by some religious losers to follow some fairytale.

" ... would suggest that your fellow Jews in Israel start taking some swimming lessons." The above statement is a throw-over of the famous threat to throw Jews into the sea made by Arab leaders in 1948 when urging the Arabs to leave their homes and seek safety until their mission is completed. Nothing to be proud of, Arab from Amman. This is about your only (non)contribution to the world and to humanity. Too bad you lost then and there is no reason to think things will be any different in the future.

please answer to #110

Thanks, Sameer. Maybe I'm boring, but I tend to respect people that adhere to Internatioonal Humanitarian Law and decisions made in the UN, resolutions and all else. Most Israelis seem to ignore the UN as being 'anti-Israel'. Fine, but they actually in reality represent some 167+ nations of the world. And how come that the Israelis - helped and covered by the international community after WWII - have become so self-obsessed that they don't recognize other opressed people after them ? Europe is tearing down walls while Israel is building new ones !! To quote a prophet for several religions: Don't they see what they're doing ?!

Their education system preachs hate and the destruction of Israel. Their religious leaders preach hate and the destruction of Israel. They want "peace" with the concept in mind that it will bring the total right of return and no Israel to speak of. The Palestinians have to learn the harsh way that dreams don't equal reality. Electing Hamas shows they want their preferred version of reality which is a fantasy. Real peace is 50 years and two generations away, whether your an Israeli leftist or rightist, people.

The racist aparthied state of zionistan is the 'problem' not the Palestinians.jews the world over should be ashamed of what they have done to the Palestinians.

welcome, we miss your hatred. pd1:you are a genious!!! pd2:why no visit us?

You really think the Palestinians have a historical and genetic connection to the Canaanites and the Jebusites? Do you just feel that to be true? Or are you in possession of evidence that is hidden from the rest of the world?

"sooner or later you will be overwhelmed by Arabs from all over..I would suggest that your fellow Jews in Israel start taking some swimming lessons." There are already 400 million Arabs to the five million Jews that make up 80% of Israel proper's population. How much more overwhelmed do you think it need to be before the situation changes? The disengagement will take care of any attempt at victory through rapid population growth. It will only create more Palestinians. These Palestinians will, most likely, be taught to find their situation less than which they feel entitled to. Some large chunk of them will look East for brighter prospects. They're coming you way. If I were you in Amman, Proud Arab, I'd skip the running lessons and just start running.

I agree of course on the suicide bombers - an outrage. But when you tell us to 'shut up' about the brutal Israeli occupation of Palestine, come on you're making a complete fool of yourself

I must agree with you, we Palestinians ought to look for solutions. For now, the best solution is to plan out a phased program for sending you packing. HAMAS shows leadership: You don't recognize us, we won't recognize you. Doctrine and principal, sweet and simple. Might take another 20 or 30 years. We've waited 60, we could wait another 60, until you people go back to Poland, New York, or bloody hell where you came from. Your leaders have failed to build a co-existant "Israel". Pay back time.

"The ten commandments, according to most Orthodox Jews, don`t apply to non-Jews. Thou Shall not kill, for example, means thou shall not kill a Jew." - Student of Talmud "That`s an absurd statement with no validity." -Bbler #114 Babbler, you assume the Talmud is based on sense. No, it is based on ideology. Non Jews are only commanded the Seven Noahide Laws. The Ten Commandments are for Jews. (see if the discrepancy between 7 and 10 rings a bell in your rational mind.) I suggest you take a look in Sanhedrin 59a, and see to what lengths of illogicality the Talmud goes in order to restrict the validity of all Torah requirements to Jews only.

"I will not waste my valuable time to argue with you about history as you have obviously learned it the `twisted` way" Sam #84 made no false statements. Did he? Your own sense of history, however, and its importance to this conflict is belied by the next statement. "Were you not offered Uganda or Argentina in the beginning" Jews weren't/aren't looking for just a place to be. Israel is the cradle of Jewish religion, language, and culture. Jerusalem is central in it's place as the Holiest city for Jews. After it's fall to the Romans, Judiasm did not reassign that designation to any other city. Argentina and Uganda were never appropriate options, as the lands had no connection to Jewish history and a native popuation that was 0% Jewish.

Alan...the last Arab summit in Lebanon, all Arab states offered Israel full recognition and normal ties if it withdrew from the 1967 occupied lands...This is the exact opposite of what you are claiming (Arab states wanting to destroy Israel). To you, the UN resolutions are vague but apparently not to the world community. The security that israel is looking for will only come through peace and not through more bullying of the Palestinians. Its quite simple.

When I read Shlomo's remark: "This is totally corrupt, violent,aggressive society, with genocidal ethos and with the consensual policies, which constitute crimes against humanity.", I assumed he was refering to Israel. Surely it is obvious that the description applies much better to Israel than it does to Palestine.

"The ten commandments, according to most Orthodox Jews, don`t apply to non-Jews. Thou Shall not kill, for example, means thou shall not kill a Jew." That's an absurd statement with no validity. Fire your teacher; ask for your money back from the institution that employed this fool; try to approach sacred texts with an open heart while also imparting the benefit of the doubt to the subleties regarding the wisdom and fairness of the text.

Any reputable source will show you that Jews were in the land during the entire common era, not to mention about 1,500 or so years prior to that. However, the UN partition plan set up a partition that the Jewish people agreed to, even though it had much unfairness in it. The Jewish people wanted and deserved to return to their homeland. After many centuries of being abused much worse than the pals ever dreamed of, 1948 finally came and they accepted the UN partition plan. Stop bellowing about Uganda or any other location, Jews and pals both resided in what the Romans called Palestine. What you can't accept is that the arabs greatly under estimated the strength of Israel. One thing you can count on is that, even if the arabs miraculously had the strength to overrun Israel, the US will NEVER all that. NEVER. So, either accept peace or perpetual chaos. The choice is up to the Hamas loving pals. Sam

you have tried to throw the jews into the sea....you are unable to. For your information.....any and all attacks on Israel is an attack on most jews. We will always support Israel whether you like it or not!

resolution 242 does not call for complete withdrawl. It is vague and purposly done so. No one expects Israel to leave 100% (except palestinians and their supporters) Hopefully, Israel will keep 50% of west bank. I have lots of arab friends who cannot understand why the arab governments still want to destroy Israel?

PALESTINE PHILISTEO...invader that comes from the sea (meaning in hebrew 2500 years ago) pd:with love from thief to thief

"Yes, our struggle to gain our freedom from your brutal occupation will not be fought with flowers..If we did it a la Ghandi style, we would have gotten our independence 38 years ago!" But really, wouldn't it have been a good thing to have had your independence 38 years ago? Are you really saying that what would have worked any time in the last 38 years isn't being implimented, much less suggested, because....wait why are you saying that the "ala Gahndi style" approach (the one that gets you a state) is not the way that is being at least suggested, if not actually being implimented.

Caption: "A Palestinian infant yawning during a Hamas rally at Gaza City's Islamic University on Sunday. (AP) " You can see the picture on the homepage.

Even if Christianity commends to love your enemy, it does not follow the commendment either in law or in war. Murderers are punished, and wars are fought. Whether Christianity and Judaism are compatible is irrelevant. It remains a fact that Judaism is the original basis of morality and of modern law.

"Why would most Palestinian come to Palestine 2 years before the war," WHat is being referred to is the fact that the UN definition for a Arab Palestinian refugee is one who was already living between the Jordan and the Medeterrainian two years prior to the 1947 partition. I don't know the number or percentage that arrived from 1940-1945, but there are some to be sure. It's an issue (and a relavant number to know) because out there, somewhere, are the grandkids of a Palestinian thinking they have some innalienable right to live in an Israeli town because a grandparent spent a couple of years there 60 years ago. Like the Jews, many Palestinians have family roots that go back uninterrupted for centuries in the land that is now Israel. But when talking about the millions of refugees and their rights, the UN's definition of a "Palestinian refugee" has led to alot of unrealistic expectations. As for your two "two learned and serious scholars" who refuted this lie in 1962, tell us more

to proud arab listen brother, the jews will never and have never admitted to be anything less than perfect, so i advice you not to educate them, but instead let them enjoy their so called "superiority" over the other races isnt it funny that the jews and the american white christians are the only two groups of people in the world who claim to be "chosen" they deserve each other

"As if robbers may come to anyone`s land,..." I couldn't agree with you more. The Romans should have remained in beautiful Italy 2000 years ago rather than going off on military conquests and robbing people of their national homes, among them the Jews of the Land of Israel. After all, that piece of real estate was renamed Judea Capta (Captive Judea) before being called Palestina in an attempt to erase its Jewish roots. By your own reasoning, Jews have an inalienable right to come back to their national homeland. However, they recognized that the Romans had in the meantime been replaced by a succession of other peoples, the last of which were Arabs. What do you do when you have two rightful claims to the same piece of land. You divide it up. Unless of course you believe there's one norm of historical justice for the Palestinian Arabs and another (as in none) for the Jews.

I believe I responded to you in a previous post.. This is not our time...we can claim however a great history and our contributions to humanity in medicine, algebra, medicine, geography, astronomy etc..are numerous (you can't deny that). Its just a matter of time..

People have lived in Palestine (by WHATEVER name) for apprx 9000 years, & Palestinians - the indissociably mixed descendants of earliest ones, Canaanites, Jebusites, Philistines, Jews, Arabs & countless more - have lived there continuously & uninterrupted the entire time More than 20 invaders incl Jews have occupied parts but all were defeated by other invaders or Palestinians. Zionists claim the borders of David & Solomon`s Kingdom, which lasted ONLY ~73 years. Much of the land Zionists claim as theirs was mainly populated by Jews for LESS THAN ONE PERCENT of its history Jews came in 1186 BCE & most or all left 135 CE while the Palestinians never left for all its history By 1900 another invasion had begun - Just 50 yrs later 435 towns razed, 750,000 indigenous displaced, refused return & Zionists stole 80% of their land WHO's IN MORAL RIGHT is OBVIOUS THERE IS ROOM FOR ALL TO SHARE. But NOT by apartheid & subjugation by them who JUST CAME, STOLE, & HAVE NO CLAIM

More money for the pals would only be spent on more weapons and bombs. You still don't get it. Stop the hatred, and have a vision to live in peace. Israel is going to be there, period. Accept it. Only then will you be able to look at a constructive future. For the sake of your children and their children, it's not too late, pals. Sam

but won't have it. If the *Pals* were really suffering, they would stop being terrorists or supporting the terrorists.

This is not our time and every dog has its day.. Demographics speak for themselves and sooner or later you will be overwhelmed by Arabs from all over..I would suggest that your fellow Jews in Israel start taking some swimming lessons.

I agree with you that the problems the *Pals* have to endure are normal for a people who have never wanted peace. They could have had their own state in 1948, but this wasn?t what they wanted. What they wanted is the destruction of another state and they are still at it.

This is your problem...always behaving like victims and cry babies....I do not hate Jews..In fact many of my friends in college (in the USA) were Jews and Israelis. They were the ones who acknowledged Palestinian rights of a homeland under UN resolutions 242 and 338..Get some web surfing done and read what these resolutions say. You can't go on ignoring the International community's will for ever..

I will not waste my valuable time to argue with you about history as you have obviously learned it the 'twisted' way...the way that fits the Jews in order to grab the land of Palestine from their rightful owners. Were you not offered Uganda or Argentina in the beginning or the history that was shoved down your throat did not tell you about that??

need I say more about your foolish ignorant respone from your hateful peon thoughts

You are trying to evade the issues. The Talmud does CONTAIN manifestly racist and criminal injunctions. This is clear. Don't deny the obvious. The Talmud does advocate killing goyem, stealing their money and property. Some Talmudic Figuers don't even consider non-Jews human beings. If Baba Zohar, Baba Kamma, Sanhedreine, etc. don't count, then who counts for G-d's sake?

The ten commandments, according to most Orthodox Jews, don't apply to non-Jews. Thou Shall not kill, for example, means thou shall not kill a Jew. Also, it is not true that the Torah is the source of morality. Christian morality says "love thy enemies" Jewish morality says "hate and kill your enemies." Jewish ethics and Christian ethics are decidedly incompatible.

israel will do whatever is necessary to protect the lives of its citizens just as any country would. If palestinians dont want jews to use special roads then they should stop stoning cars and throwing firebombs ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE

im araid its the arabs who are the land thieves. The only problem for the arabs is that they are unable to fight and win. Even with the Russsians on your side, Israel beat your asses ! The arabs should have accepted partition just as Israel did. arabs should not initate wars unless they are prepared for the consequences....Israel will win every time !!!!

I would agree with most of Predictions,Excpt the forced to expell its peaceful terrorists,And agreement with jordan and Saudia.I believe in future the jordanian kingdom fail by radical islamism and palestinain,And it will help Automatically those arabs in yehodah and shomron will move to new palestinians state in jordan,Besides i dont see in future stability also in saudi arabia.The situation in saudi is like late 1979 in iran.Any way i wishe all the best for jewish state and us,I hope HAARETZ will publish my post.

yes its the fault of the palestinians, its their fault that they dont have a monopoly on US aid to the tune of an average of over 3 billion dollars during the last 20 years like israel has, its their fault that the average palestinian does not recieve a compensation of 100000 US dollars for every home they lost while the israeli settlers recieved even more how terrible it must be to be a palestinian, fighting the world Peace to my brothers

You claim Palestinians are much more civilized than all of (the Jews). Really? What advances in the humanities have you achieved recenlty whether it be in arts, science, technology? I would give you a list of those advanced by Jews but the list is too long. Can't perform under occupation? But jews contributed to the world long before we had a state. What about your arab brtohers in Saudi Arabia-why can't they contribute? I'll tell you why-I saw the royal family in Paris buying Louis Vitton and Gucci, andliving it up with women and liqour, good muslims they are.

If you are so concerned with honoring UN resolutions, how about the very first one recognizing Israel and the partition into Jewish and Arab states? How about the resolution stating we withdrawal to defensible borders, NOT '67 borders? I know you are an arab but try to control your vicious hate of jews, please.

The Torah is the original foundation of all subsequent morality. It gave the world the Ten Commendments, which are put forth without earthly punishment. They are injunctions against idolatry, murder, theft, envy. For the first time humans are commended to rest once a week. The Torah also commends to give charity to the poor, the orphan and the widow. The Torah also records history. Amelek was an enemy of the Jews, and the Jews do not believe inturning the other cheek. Self defense is not only a right, but an obligation. No people is perfect, since perfection is not human. This, more than anything elese, is recognized in the Torah. That is why kings, and indeed the people themselves, were often admonished by the prophets. It is said that there are thirty six Tzadicim in the world whose identity cannot be known. So few Tzadicim to keep the world going. The Almighty does not ask for much: the seven Noahic laws, and thirty six Tzadicim.

First, Hilchot Rozeach 1,1 Mechilta, Beschallach, par. 2 for chapter 14,7 Aboda zara 4b Tosafot Rabbi whatever is not Talmud. Second, you need to look up the actual text and translate from aramaic. Until you do (I doubt you did more than google search or something like it), you have no idea what you are talking about. There are many, many particulars that limit any such action. Third, killing one who comes to kill you is permissible by any code of law, including Judaism and its talmud. The Palestiniains have declared war on Israel. They are all combatants (they almost all dream they do, including their children). In any case, normative halacha does not follow after the talmud.

To unprintable and proud arab, You speak as if the land was "yours" in the first place. This land was under British control, under Jordanian control, and Syrian control, etc. It was not part of any nation since the Jews were forced out of ISRAEL beginning in 70 CE -- give or take a few years. Jews lived in the land for that entire 2000 years since then so you don't have the claim that it was yours. I would say to read history but all your books show is your momma strapping you with bombs -- the arab pattern. I know, you are wondering if the bomb stuff isn't all there is to learn. You have been taught hatred all your lives. Learn to think for yourselves. Also, the comment was made that the whole world can't be wrong. Ha! The whole world stood silently by during the rise of the Holocaust -- oh, I known, your history doesn't teach that -- only the strapping on of bombs and hating. Get a life (instead of taking lives). Sam

remove my 'failing miserably' as that shouldn't have been in there,that was wrong. I do get my back up when judaism is portrayed as being bloodthirsty when it is anything but.

Amira Hass is clearly pro-*Pal* and against Israel. She writes articles protesting about how bothering checkpoints are to the *Pals*, but I never read an article by her protesting the attacks and murders committed by her *Pal* friends.

Fritz, I don't know what you personally believe. But when you make a statement such as, "It was just the provocation by Ben who claimed there was NO SUCH THING AT ALL in the Talmud that made me quote these sections, for the benefit of truth." it makes me wonder. Ben was actually correct but since you don't have the knowledge to understand the meaning then your statements are just more ammunition to pals and anti-Semites. Because you made the assertion as if you understood what the Talmud said. One would do well to not quote the Talmud if you don't know what it means because it will be twisted by others to "prove" their baseless arguments. Hope to have made myself clear. Bob

There is a tendancy to think that leaders are somehow philosopher kings, above and separate from the mass of people. Reality is much more complex than this simplistic notion. Leaders arise from the people. They represent the most basic cultural values of the people. These values are not necessarily monolithic, but they express the national unconscious. If fourty four percent of the people vote for a party that openly espouses the annhialation of Israel, and accepts sending children on suicide missions, then the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the people have a culture which condones such beliefs. The Palestinians were given a choice, and they chose death.

You are a complete ignorant and arogant Zionist! Palestinians are much more civilized than all of your kind..Yes, our struggle to gain our freedom from your brutal occupation will not be fought with flowers..If we did it a la Ghandi style, we would have gotten our independence 38 years ago! Is the whole world wrong? Waht are the UN resolutions for then? The whole world is telling you to get out of the land that you have stolen. BUNCH OF THEIVES!

Wow! This is really an enlightining piece! Without we would not have known that throwing aid to the palestinians does not prevent intafada. The best line in the whole article is this "...Because Israel's problem is not Hamas, strong or weak; the problem is with the Palestinian people, who chose it. They have to be changed or eliminated if one wants quiet " changed or eliminated!!

"Palestinian Arabs turn down numerous partition plans in the 30`s and 40`s that the Jews are willing to accept" As if robbers may come to anyone's land, offer to mutually agree [!] they may rob part of it, make several successive offers each time to rob more and more -- & then, when the soon-robbed people do what any people anywhere in the world have the right to do & do do, - say NO & resist robbery, apartheid & theft etc -- & as if then the robbers may take over & displace them them by force & as if then the robbers may cluck their tongues & make such pronouncements as "You should have agreed to our original offers to rob less from you! Instead you *made us* [!] rob more from you than we were going to!" Universal common-sense morals count for everyone (Zionists too) in discussions of anything but their own mass robbery. But these morals become entangled in self-denial & get inherently twisted & distorted & perverted when they discuss their mass robbery.

Sam, I am not anti-semitic as you would know had you read other posts of mine in other contexts. Racism in all its forms is simply stupid and irresponsible. Also I do not take isolated radical statements in religious books all too serious. You find them everywhere, in the Bible, in the Quran, in the Torah, in the Talmud. They are without bearing on our daily lives and not indicative of the quality of a religion. It was just the provocation by Ben who claimed there was NO SUCH THING AT ALL in the Talmud that made me quote these sections, for the benefit of truth. I would have done the same had somebody claimed the Quran were a book of peace or the Bible were free of intolerance etc. Hope to have made myself clear.

Fritz, you fail miserably It takes more that a cursory internet look-up, and your examples are......incorrect. While you can learn the talmud while standing on one foot, you certainly can't learn the depth and nuance. I won't go through them all, but Sefer Ikkarim lll.25 is an oft mis-quoted verse. It refers to money-lending and interest charges, it refers to "Gentiles" in the sense of those who don't follow the 7 universal laws of Noah. In short it has absolutely nothing to do with the 'proof' you are attempting to make. Ben Torah is correct.

? the *Pal* government will be terrorist, since all the parties running in elections are terrorist groups. But this does not mean they must be founded.

The article implies that economic pressure on the PA won?t lead to a backlash against Hamas by the *Pals*. The article may be right. However, I wonder if not putting pressure will change the result. I dare say it won?t. The fact is that zillions of dollars have been given to the PA along the years, and here we have the result. The *Pals* have voted for Hamas because it promise the liberation of the *occupied Palestine* (Israel) through jihad.

Go and learn in a yeshivah, then come back on these forums

...we arent guilty about...

Oh Fritz, I only looked up the first reference you cited, and you appear to be way off base, as usual (Sanhedrin 53a). You see, I am not a Talmudic scholar but I looked it up just out of curiousity. You have not ground for your baseless argument here. I had the privilege to study Judaism under Jewish/rabbinic guidance for several years. I came out of it with a great appreciation for Jewish writings, and also understand you can not just pick up a writing of the Talmud and think by reading it you understand it. In your haste to prove your anti-Semetic stand, you grasp at straws, and pull writing out of context in hopes of convincing the uninformed that you have a case. A person can take anything out of context and make it sound like what they want it to be. Poor Fritz, it must be tough being anti-Semitic and not being able to use FACTS. Sam

The *Pals* have chosen Hamas, which refuses to recognize Israel and says it is the *Pals* right to murder Israelis. So it is normal for the Israelis to think of the means to defend themselves from the murderers.

You're right, there are more Palestinian Arabs in historic Palestine (present-day Israel, Gaza Strip, West Bank and Jordan) than Jews. Mmmmmm......so what? As for Zionism's imminent failure, you could have fooled me. Let me see, a democracy with standard of living comparable to all Western democracies, good health care, freedom of expression and worship, a booming hi-tech sector, solid economic growth, GDP per inhabitant on average ten times (yes ten) that of its neighbors (as in Jordan, Egypt etc), an army fully capable of defending its citizens... For some reason, your predictions won't cause me to lose any sleep any time soon. Make no mistake about it, peace would be the very best thing to happen to Israelis and Palestinians. But the lack of peace has clearly been kinder to Israel than to its Palestinian neighbors. But go on believing that time is on your side.

The proponents are right. Hamas doesn?t want peace with Israel, as it has repeatedly stated.

Which (if any) of the historical facts I listed can you refute? Of course, rather than having to deal with the hard facts, it's easier for you to simply stick a label on everything you don't agree with as a "Zionist narrative".

Your posts have been so ridiculous to read. Here you say, "Crimes against humanity? Last time I checked, ethnic cleansing was one, and it was committed by Israel in 1948. So don`t lecture us about morals and crimes against humanity." People like you see what you want to see and then rant on like it was fact. There was not ethnic cleansing attempt in 1948 -- it was a battle for survival since the pals wanted no peace then or any other time. And don't even bring up morals as the pals and arabs in general don't even know what the word means. It's all in the actions and the world has witnessed this hatred for long enough. Sam

nudge nudge, wake up now.

60 years of living on the dole has done nothing to alter the arabs' situation. They still look to Israel. Peace is a pipe-dream. There never has been an acceptance of Israel and the invention of a 'palestinian' guarantees that no settlement can ever be had. It may come as a surprise to many but Jerusalem and the 'right of return' were two items that were never on the table. "Palestinians" were never on the table before either. Judea,Samaria and Gaza were in "palestinian" hands since the creation of the state of Israel. Where was this mythical country of Palestine?

Remember, there are more Palestinians in Palestine today than Jews....and soon we will be the vast majority...hahahahah.....ZIonism is failing, dear.

...72% Palestine People choose, make responsable pd:...and my owner no clean me too

You fully adopt the Zionist narrative and call it innocent?! HUH?

You may also consult the following: Sanhedrin 53a, Sanhedrin 71b, Hilchot Rozeach 1,1 Mechilta, Beschallach, par. 2 for chapter 14,7 Aboda zara 4b Tosafot Sefer Ikkarim III, 25.

Suicide bombers wreak deadly havoc in Israel's cities. Israel builds a defensive barrier. The Palestinians blame Israel. The Palestinians elect Hamas, a terror organization that makes no secret of its total opposition to Israel's right to exist anywhere in the Middle East. It also states that all previous accords with Israel aare non-binding. Israel announces that there's nothing to discuss with Hamas unless it changes its position. The Palestinians blame Israel for thwarting the peace process. When will the Palestinian Arabs stop blaming Israel for the problems they've brought unto themselves? When will they accept that there are consequences to all of their decisions?

Palestinian Arabs turn down numerous partition plans in the 30's and 40's that the Jews are willing to accept. Israel declares independence and survives an massive Arab assault. The Palestinians blame Israel for stealing their homeland. Faced with Arab threats of destruction backed up by military escalation, Israel launches a defensive war in 1967. Israel wins. The Palestinians blame Israel for its "aggression". For decades, Palestinians innovate in the field of terror, using Israeli civilians as their testing ground, while refusing to talk of any peace with the Jewish state. Israel hits back repeatedly. The Palestinians blame Israel for their misery and statelessness. Peace talks finally begin in 1993. The Palestinians refuse to halt the ongoing terror attacks coming from the territories they now control, culminating in the terror war that begins in 2000. As a result, the talks break down completely. The Palestinians blame Israel. (cont'd)

Muslim text books that happen to be written by....Jews??!!! Your blind nationalism is making you look stupid.

Rav Elyahu, Ravi Dov Ben Lor, Rav. Abraham Shapira and others have such an edict and it was printed in Ha'aretz. The edict said that Jews may kill non-Jewish children to save Jewish soldiers. It is clear, don't dispute the obvious.

Rav Elyahu, Ravi Dov Ben Lor, Rav. Abraham Shapira and others have such an edict and it was printed in Ha'aretz. The edict said that Jews may kill non-Jewish children to save Jewish soldiers. It is clear, don't dispute the obvious.

The Palestinians continue to sink into irrelevancy on the world stage.The world is tired of their whining and lack of advancement. They are a failed state and everyone knows this, including their Moslem sponsors. Arafat pocketed the "humanitarian" aid. They destroyed the industry in Gaza. No benefactor country can point to one road, one hospital, one school or one house built with EU, American or Canadian aid. Other economic blocks on the world stage continue to prosper: the Americas, EU, Israel, India and China.

I am not going to hit the bullseye but you may want to look at Devarim 25:17-18 and Tractate Yomah (22b) and the consequences for king Saul of not annihilating Amalek. These are not edicts valid for today but the spirit is typical. Following this it was said for Purim (Talmud, Megillah, 11a): "If you do not uproot the inhabitants of the Land and allow them to remain they will become thorns in your side and will cause trouble for you in the Land in which you dwell" (Bamidbar 33:55). This explains the attitude of some consevatives to Palestinians.

Seems that you have a problem with your own name. How can I expect you to have a grasp on reality? Just like you can look in Muslim text books and find that Israel does not exist at all , you can bend and twist history anyway you see fit, but regardless of what you and Goebbles, say and believe that does not make it fact. And I am not in a perpetual state of victimhood, you see the 850,000 thousand Jews who truly where forced to flee arab lands in 1948, where intigrated and welcomed in Israel...So save your false concern for my well being!!

I do not know of any biblical source encouraging people to kill (and I do not think they do exist), but there are a lot of interpretations of Talmudic verses by people like Ramban, Rambam, Rashi that say that killing a gentile is less grave than killing an "Israel", for the prohibition is for killing "adam" and gentiles are not considered to be "adam". This kind of mindset, which put different price tags on lives of people according to their religion, creates an atmoshpere where Israeli soldiers find it less serious to kill Palestinians, especially knowing that they are going to get away with it, and if indicted, will get low sentences.

"A people who issue Talmudic edicts allow soldiers and settlers to murder villagers". - Post #10 Where is the required comprehension of the Talmudic scholar, sunk under the tonnage of protective bias? The simple meaning of "Talmudic edict" in post #10 is "p'sak halakha" (based on the Talmud or later halakhic literature). It is not an edict found in the Talmud, but a contemporary one. P.S. I am not the author of #10, but I can read and understand his angst.

This lie was refuted long ago, in 1962, when two learned and serious scholars researched all of the radio stations that were active at the time and did not find any evidence for that. Even Israel cannot provide any evidence. Why would most Palestinian come to Palestine 2 years before the war, when Palestine was the least stable place in the Middle East? I actually feel sorry for people who believe in these lies. I feel sorry for you man.

Forth Geneva Convention provides (art. 49): "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." So its not me who decided that Israelis do not have the right to live in the West Bank, its international law. I can live with a Jew anywhere. I acutally did- I did live with one for 2 years. The question is how. If it is on equal footing, then its ok, but when it is as a result of ethnic cleansing and self proclaimed superior rights over the land which renders me inferior to them, NEVER.

You state "A people who issue Talmudic edicts allow soldiers and settlers to murder villagers". I am a talmudic scholar and I challenge you (or anyone else) to cite me the location of this edict in the talmud. If you can't (trust me, you can't), then shut it up once and for all. Thank you.

The arabs always want what the Jews want...Israel, to be the victimized "darlings" of the world, to even control the media (by rioting). Now, why don't you try to take all the money dumped into your economy and MAKE SOMETHING of yourselves like the Jews did? Make technological advances in medicine, science, agriculture...have your kids go to scholl and stop throwing bombs!!! Your only known world-wide as innovators in terrorism!!!

Blah, blah, blah... Heard it 1000 times. Read it 10000 times. Have you people got anything new to say ? I am not happy with my life at all(true fact), so what do I do ? Do I go to my boss asking for more money ? No. Do I tell my colleagues that they are responsible for my failures ? No. Do I blame everybody in this region and the neighboring ones because THEY "could" make my life better ? No. What I do is LOOK for a solution: I go home and I don't sit down. I study on week-ends. I work at night after my normal job. I contact friends and acquaintances and people I don't even know to see how I can get out of here to get that better life. I WORK ON IT MYSELF. When people like you start having the same mentality, you might improve your lot. Forget the neighbor. Get a life ! And I'm quite sure that this is what most palestinian would do too... if they weren't brainwashed by your likes, into believing that they are "due" something. Forget the "dues". Just WORK !

Follow your Messiah (Hamas) to the promised land-Jordan. FREE ISRAEL. AM ISRAEL CHAI.

once again you prove your hatred...Muslims can live anywhere including Israel, but you suggest Jews have no right to live in Judea or Sameria... I ask you how do you take the Jew out of Judea? Jews had to be removed from Gaza because of your refusel to live with Jews, Jews must be removed from Shcheem, because you can't live with Jews. Jews had to leave the Sinia because you can't live with Jews..who is the racist?

Jane, I agree whole heartedly with your sentiments but must add to it on my behalf. Israel must do a population exchange with Jordan, Syria and Saudia for the Repatriation of Arabs living in Judea and Samaria. One must not allow the other free hand to raise it against Israel and handing over Judea and Samaria would accomplish that.

I am not sure what is more disturbing your basterdization of history(lies) or the hate you spew!! "Ethnic cleansing, Persecution, Aparthied? " You forget that there are 1.5 million muslims that are Israelis. And that the majority of the 850,0009not millions) arabs who left Israel in 1948 had done so at the urging of surrounding Arab leaders of the day, to return only after they had killed all the Jews!! And that a large persentage of them had arrived in Israel only 2 years before. Didnt turn out that way did it!!

the "Palestinians" are a very recent creation but disappear they must and blend in with their mother countries. Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Artificial creations do not have any longevity at all. Hamas is claiming israel and Judea ans Samaria on behalf of Muslims and not the Artificial Palestinians.

Choni, Take a deep breath and go back to your meditation. If a "book" (no matter which one) is the sole justification of your actions, you are no better than Hamas and Iran's fundamentalists. And if any of those "books" really had a solution for the world's problem written in it, it would have been known by now.

These are My Predictions--Ben Gurion you better listen this is important. Gaza will be renamed Hamastan. There will be NO MORE Arab elections in Judea, Samaria or Gaza. The PA will become a Hamas Dictatorship. The use of Qassams, Homicide attacks, and other more sophisticated projectiles will increase,maybe even to a crude chemical weapon. Israel will retake all of Judea and Samaria and be forced to expell its peaceful terrorists, terrorist aiding and abetting population in agreement with Jordan and Saudia of Course. The israeli population will rise up and send all the leftist parties packing to the dustbin of history. Haaretz will print more shrill articles about the Arabs and will be forced to go bankrupt as a result of loss of readership. The posters here will continue to post their idiotic little posts until such time, There you have it-My predictions.

on the ground, what were the suicid attacks on the civilians during Arafat's reign. Israelis are defending themselves from terror. Stop terror, coexistence will be possible.

So, in order to protect people who have no right to live in the West Bank- that housing them there is considered a war crime- and who usually own machine guns for their protection, it is justified to build apartheid roads for their exclusive use, on lands owned by Palestinians. Who is the fool here?

The Palestianian seem to blame everything on the Israelis never taking any responibility for there actions of hate. They have created there own ignorant oppression.

The Israleis have there owns roads so they Palestians won't shoot or blow the Israelis cars up with there childen in them.

The Palestinian decision-making process is structured so that any Muslim or Arab party, anywhere in the world, can demonstrate their Muslim/Arab virtue by calling for war. But, any party that calls for peace, risks the lives of its membership. And, you can't get to peace without a peace party.

to no 10 Palestinian, i suggest Palestinian that you go and see a RASS HAKIM, YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THAT CANT YOU.

to no 8. Jan you put in your posting they killed on 9/11 300 people they the bloody Arabs killed 3.000 not 300.of the 3.000 some of those people were moslems, you see they even kill their own kind like you see in Iraq.

The Palestinains have done nothing to contribute to a peaceful solution of their conflict with the Jewish State, and nothing to better their own people's lot in life. They have been on the world's welfare dole for over 50 years by the Arabs to serve as a thorn in Israel's side least the Jews become too much at home in the region. They have not shown themselves to be up to the task of statehood and are only able to destroy and malign what is not theirs while contributing nothing to mankind beyond a better suicide bomb. For anyone to continue talking about peace is ridiculous and is one hand clapping in the breeze.

I do not justify suicide bombs nor oppression! When I went to Israel and the occupied territories I have met people that sounded desperate for peace that understood each others needs and were willing to except each others history (which I think would be the first step do to anyway) and compromise. It made me wonder why it works in some parts of the country and in others it doesn't. I came to the conclusion that the radicals may there be Jewish or Palestinian are the cause. My resulting argumentation I already laid down in #14. When you say:"They want the destruction of jewish state,It is their compromise." I guess you mean the election of Hamas.I can understand your point of view but did you ever consider that people may elected them to end corruption? Palestinians just like Israelis think of themselves first (naturally) so they take care of theire own problems before thinking of the consequences for the other side or the impression the rest of the world gets from it.

The Jews want peace. This may sound simplistic, but it happens to be true. 'Peace' is a first value in the Jewish tradition. The Palestinians want land, power and above all a world free of all their supposed enemies. As a branch of radical Islam they cannot bear 'the other'. What we can do is difficult to know. Naturally we must do everything possible to prevent them from violently harming us, or threatening the state of Israel's existence. But beyond that it is difficult to know what to do with a people who when given carrots curse you and call them stones.

The closures and checkpoints are needed to protect Israeli citizens from terror within Pal territories and penetrations into Israel, as not all the measures are implemented. The closers on holidays are specifically needed as holidays are a much more appealing terror targets. Once Israel has moved to the wall, the only protection will be her border and the closures within Pal territories will seize to exist.

War is easier than peace. Peace requires more complex thinking and who would want to do that, especially when God is on my side?

No need to point fingers at each other here. The article is not about good/bad people from the race perspective, but the leadership choice. The author merely exposes what leadership Pals have chose for themselves. With Hamas? daily endeavors and statements, it only reiterates where the majority of the voters views were and are. Actually, with Hamas? continued similar display, more and more articles like this, and even bolder ones, I believe will appear around the world. The note on humanitarian aid. It should always continue as far as the basic, survival necessities are concerned: food, water, clothing, medicine, etc., whether people forced into that position, made bad decisions themselves, or both. Besides basic needs are not readily exchanged fro military arms, mines and mortars.

It is man's nature to believe that when we persevere in making hell more hellish, things will eventually get better. The missing link between apes and humanity is mankind.

If the Palestinans, and their brethren, had accepted Partition in 1947, they would have had their own state. Instead, they chose to attack Israel, and thus perpetuated their own misery. They have no one to blame but their forefatehrs, and their Arab "brethren", who let them live in Squalor and poverty, so that they could, in the end,blame the Jewish State. This is not opinion. It is fact.

While every one around the world is linning up to demand Hamas recongize Israel and for every Palestinians to be permitted to live must sign a letter of recognition of Israel,no one bother to see what Palestinians have to go through on a daily basis dealing with check points and closures. Of course Israel does not give a damn who suffers, as long its citizens are enjoying the good life, with freedom of movements and special raods for Jews. I will not be surprised if it become a practice for Jewish kids celebrating their birthdays to demand closure of and imposing curfew on the Arab towns or villages. There is a closure every single holidays even fools day their is closures. What kind of people the Israelis are? Certainly not of this world.

Spot on, Julia. and Sameer too. Until Israelis stop thinking that Palestinians are somehow inferior - the excuse of colonisers throughout the centuries - and come to understand that most people want their own patch of land, and some say in their government, regardless of whether they are Jews, Palastinians, Algerians, Africans, Indians, Laotian, Cambodian etc, then the patronising and humiliating treatment will continue to block peace initiatives. I really think Israelis like living under these unstable conditions - it makes them feel special, when they are just another bunch of unwelcome colonisers.

Well, most of these "lies" are documented by Jewish writers, some of them are even zionist and support ethnic cleansing and apartheid. The list is long: Benny Morris, Ilan Pappe, Avi Shlaim, Tom Segev, Gidon Levy, Amira Hass- to name some only. I think you are stuck in your French bubble. I live the situation on the ground and I have first hand experience with appartheid , ethnic cleansing and occupation. As opposed to you, I don't live in France and lecture victims about the morality of the criminal and how to endure the crimes and keep silent about it. If you want to keep your head in the sand, don't try to silence others.

That mean you justify the act of suicide bombers that killed the thousands innocent peoples.Thre were not any check point or road blacks in that areas befor the second intifadah.(palestinians want peace and are willig to compromise)Are you sure?They want the destruction of jewish state,It is their compromise.Get a real news,You may live in arab country, Not in germany.

You have been educated only with hatred. The lies you live with are the normality for you. In one or two generations (or even more) you will affirm the same or more hatred. This is why israelis have no other choice but to separate themselves from palestinians.

THE REAL PROBLEM IS NOT THE "PALESTINIANS", BUT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT(S) WHO HAVE FORSAKEN THE TORAH.ON RE-CONQUERING JERUSALEM AND YESHA IN 1967,THEY CORRECTLY FULFILLED THE MITZVAH OF SETTLING THE LAND,BUT OMMITED TO FULFIL THE FIRST PART OF THE MITZVAH-THAT OF BANISHING ALL THE HOSTILE ISHMAELITES. UNTIL THIS IS DONE AND THE ISRAELIS CONTINUE TO FLOUT THE TORAH WITH THEIR VANITIES AND SECULARISM,GOD'S ANGER WILL BE AROUSED.THE 'PALESTINIANS' ARE MERELY EVIL TOOLS.

Actions of either side always affect the "normal" (i.e. average) people the most. Be it suicide bombs or road blacks by the IDF. It is the wrong way to punish the non-fundamental, non-radical part of the population; Those ones where they would be a chance to talk to them normaly without usage of terror, threats or sanctions. I know that there are Israelis and Palestinians that just want peace and are willing to compromise on that. Attacks (from either side) diminish that percentage of "willing" people on either side. If people are unhappy or they see their lives in danger they are much more likely to believe the radical people. Again I mean either side!

The arabs are arabs.They are all normal.Islam is also religion of peace and always has been condemn any kind of violence.

"There won`t be any more election for them." .... not exactly true perhaps. It really depends on the final agenda of Hamas. Without doubt, their leadership are a group of excellent poker players. Are they content to just control Gaza and the West Bank, right now? Hardly a solid base from which to embark on a major military option in the near term. Is much of their posturing towards Israel just that, merely posturing? Do their political aspirations extend a lot further? Will we see Hamas candidates seeking public office in Lebanon and Jordan next?

"This is totally corrupt, violent,aggressive society, with genocidal ethos and with the consensual policies, which constitute crimes against humanity." Shlomo is speaking as if he is an authority on Palestinians, as if he knows them and lived with them for years. How many Palestinians do you know anyway (besides that one who built your house)? I think that all of these assertions are rooted in his racism, which allows him to essentialize a whole nation, reducing them to criminals, and totally disregarding any other aspects. Genocidal ethos? what about "ethnic cleansing ethos" that Israeli society sees as totally acceptable. Crimes against humanity? Last time I checked, ethnic cleansing was one, and it was committed by Israel in 1948. So don't lecture us about morals and crimes against humanity. Go tell it to your leaders and millitary commanders.

hospital can't be normal either. A people who lure children and then shower them with bullets are not normal. A people who shoot school children and then verify the killing are not normal. A people who issue Talmudic edicts allow soldiers and settlers to murder villagers, destroy and steal their crops are not normal. A people who steal other people's homes and land and live in them are not normal. A people who commit all these crimes and then lie about them are not normal.

now lets see what normal about palestnians.Is it sending kids on suicide missions or is it giving out candy on 9/11 to celebrate 300 dead people?

There won't be any more election for them.

A people who teaches two years old kids to wear a bomb belt and a kalashnikov cannot be normal, unless "normal" means to this people to love death and not life. And please don't repeat your "Ethnic cleansing, persecution, occupation, apartheid, 4 million refugees problem". These are lies and Palestinians (with full blessing from their arab "brothers") don't want anything but perpetuate these lies and their own misery. If they had wanted, from 1947, they would have been able to be a normal nation like any other.

Are you calling for a genocide? or a complete ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? or maybe it's better to starve them first, which will result in genocide and ethnic cleansing! Who is the"one" who wants quiet exactly?

This is totally corrupt, violent,aggressive society, with genocidal ethos and with the consensual policies, which constitute crimes against humanity. Yes, the second intifada was more violent than the first one simply because the Palestinians recieved territory, which is the wasp nest of terror. Now, they will recieve more territory, control over the boundaries and sea port in Gaza. It is obvious, that the next intifada will be the all out war. Which is probably not as bad for Israel, as rocks intifada or war of attrition of the last years.

Ethnic cleansing, persecution, occupation, apartheid, 4 million refugees problem. This is only a partial list of the things Palestinians had to endure. Now, to come and say that Palestinians have a problem because they do not find "humanitarian aid" sufficient, and because they want their full rights is quite unacceptable. Actually it is very normal for a people to assert its rights and fight for them. Palestinians do not have a problem, they are normal.

This happened many times before. I don't know why, but enemy of Jews are same. And today, they are looking and taking like 60 and thousand years ago. And there is never any hesitation whoze side you belong to! Give them a time, they gonna hang themself. The Sunnies and Shea and Fatah and Hamas and Alquida-it is very nice company-give them a time to get together!

Enough. Palestinians are in their present prdicament because of their own actions, be it their faith in Arafat, or their election of Hamas. I wonder if their is a gene for stupidity that is passed from the so-called Pals to their progeny, but iot certainly seems so.