The Holocaust won't protect Israel forever

Come on, Joe F, we have heard the canard about Jewish money and world politics for a lot longer and more often than we have heard about the Holocaust. It's been around since the czars and is no truer now than it was then. I agree with Mr. Shtrasler, but not for the "reason" you mention.

Ms. Shtrasler is correct, both about the shame the world nations felt about not having done enough to save European Jewry and about the growing feeling that the Holocaust does not mean a blank check for Israel to do whatever it pleases despite international opprobrium. The Israeli government seems to be telling friends and foes alike to go to hell. That is both ungrateful and unwise. Most Americans alive today had nothing to do with the refusal of the U.S. government to do more to save the Jews of Europe. The majority of Americans still support a Jewish state in Israel despite this, but they are becoming increasingly exasperated with the guilt trip being placed on them about the Holocaust,that they should support the Israeli government no matter what it does because of the suffering of Europe's Jews in World War II.

Austria, with all liabilities, was the place the jews got the full rights, the names, even Baronies (like Rothschildt) and so on. At least the jews were the only real austrians in the monarchy. I still believe that my jewish anchestors were aware of these facts.There is not an overall jugdment in the european countries. But to blame the Europeans whar happened in Nazi Germany is simply deadly wrong. an overall

No one cared about the Holocaust in Europe? What a lie. My own grandfather saved Jews during the war, putting himselve and our family in danger. Belgium did a lot to save Jews even as we lived under a German miltary governement. In fact the Judenrat was responsable themselves for a lot what happened in Europe to the Jews by working with the Nazis. Belgian resistance stopped a deportation train, wich saved some Jews and was a unique feat in Europe. With the knowledge at the time most Europeans did what they could. You insult us and all those who risked there life for you. Shame on you.

If you are resenting and hurt over the fact that a nation would consider saving the lives of its soldiers when given the choice of them or people in whom it had no particular interest, you are one sick puppy. How strongly would you urge the IDF to expend lives to save the lives of civilians of another nation? If you were the president of the US, would you sacrifice our soldiers' lives to save those people? Before you answer, remember the definition of giving material aid and comfort to the enemy, the US being at that time in a state of war, is treason. People who make ridiculous statements SHOULD be ridiculed.

1. The Lubavitcher does not believe in the current Israel as a Jewish state. They expect Moshiah to come and re build the temple in Jerusalem and this is when Israel will be resurrected. In reality never. 2. The modern times Israel already gave back oil rich Sinai to Egypt for peace and accepted the Clinton parameters that would give all of Gaza + 96% of WB + Israeli land swap + Capital in East Jerusalem. This is proof that there is no such thing as greater Israel dream. 3. Hamas leaders have repeatedly declared that they will never accept a Jewish state between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea. And this is proof that Hamas has some greater Palestinian Arab land dreams.

It is indeed awful to lie about the holocaust and so it is to exaggerate events of the past. How about talking of the strategic goal of the Israeli concerning the Palestinians oh chosen Ivan? Ps In which which part of the world have Jews become President (Leon Blum, France) PM (Disraeli, (the UK) Minister (Balfour ) PM, Laval (France) Governor of Central Bank (Italy, Draghi, presently)..... in EUROPE????? in the USA?

There was NO "complete extermination of Jews" in England or Spain. Massacres yes and expulsion or forced conversion. Try using a dictionary before posting.As for Eastern Europe, anti- semitism has been consistently worse than in western Europe amongst the general population [local variants of Nazism in Eastern Europe were ready willing and able to adopt genocidal policy against Jews throughout 'most' of eastern Europe with one or two notable exceptions. Even after the war was over there were massacres in Poland and elsewhere, such was the lack of remorse in that part of the world, even as the west recoiled in horror at the sights of the liberated camps.

Nothing can protect anything forever. So is the memory of the nations on holocaust. The best is for our selves to remember forever the situation and to be ready to do whatever it takes to avoid the repetition. No need for Iran to recognize the Jewish history. Nor the recognition of Germany on that matter is needed. It is our history, it is for us to remember it and to act accordingly.

well written. time is indeed short...

Since they are only for themselves? The world is not responsible for the Jewish deaths of WWII, the nazis were and they are long dead. Never a word of graditude to those who prevented Hitler from winnning the war and exterminating every Jew in Europe. Billions of lives at stake and the fate of the free world, thousands of other civilians dying every day and the Jews think everything should have been dropped to save them alone. Well the world is sick of the whinning, wallowing in your victimhood and demanding more and more from a world that actually doesn't owe you anything. And each generation of Jews think they are gonna get a free ride and a get out of jail free card forever because of their ancestors suffering? Forget it, it's over.

Azbob "I am one of those persons who applauded Israel`s fight for statehood and stood with it before the occupation and illegal settlements." 1) You forgot to mention though that the Palis in 1967 AND 1973 went to war with Israel because they rejcted 1947 UN resolution so why Must israel go back to 1947 borders the same borders Palestinians rejcted in 1947? 2) Why is it illegal occupation ? was it legal for Jordan to attack Israel in 1967 Did Jordan Legally occupy non Jordanians land of East Jerusalem from 1947 to 1967? what did Jordan have to do with Egypt? 3) all the Wars Palestinians started on Israel was against Un 1947 resoutions and again Geneva convention so real obusers of law are the Palestinians not Israel

victor "They have made idols out of their bible book, " Eaclty what idol did the Jews make out of thier bible ? can you be more specific ?

There is one point, though, you are forgetting: There Saudi offer isn't really explicit regarding the fate of refugees (what is a "just solution" to the issue? We all know that the traditional position of the Arab world on this matter is that Israel should take everyone in. But I think we all know that Israel won't take 3-5 million (The numbers come from using UNRWA data, the difference are refugees living the the WB and Gaza, would they have the right to move to Israel too? Could Israel, with 7.5 million inhabitants, suddenly take 3-5 million people in even if they were Jews?). I do believe though that both parts should overcome their differences. And let's face it, the refugee issue seems to be one of the main dealbreakers - probably even more important than Jerusalem and maybe at the same level of security and sustainability issues regarding any deal.

...if he thinks there is no such thing as a greater Israel dream. Not long ago at a legal confernce my old college chum was waxing on about how great it will be one day in the future when swathes of Biblical Iraq are united with Israel. She's a Lubavitcher, and this, she explained, is what they and many other relgious Jews believe. David Israel needs to get out more.

Especially when the world watches the descendant destroying Palestinians and their country and their culture.

Only if the Palestinians and the Arab States sign that the border is final and permanent will there be a chance for peace. ' Happily, if you consult the Saudi peace proposal that's been on the table for eight years now, you'll find that this is already the case. So I guess now that you've noticed it, we can all go home? Let Israel embark on its career as the Levant's answer to Honduras and Togo? Not a chance.

'...Strategic goal of European Nations is total extermination of Jews' And rampant paranoia can be treated. Did it ever occur to you that you're simply not important enough to serve as the sole goal in life for three hundred million people? That alone should make you realize how improbable such an assertion is.

Your misinterpretation that suggests Netanyahu's "constant referral to the Holocaust" is "making it acceptable to compare Israel with the nazis" is not only nonsensical and preposterous,but suggests a strongly anti-Jewish bias.The 'hiding behind the corpses of 6 million' seems to confirm the obvious attitude behind your comments regarding your "concern" over Israel's critics.Indeed,many of Israel's most severe critics are the Israeli media.The reality of Israel's threats from her neighbors are sufficiently great that references to the Holocaust reinforces their severity.

Robert, you are wrong. For example my opposition to Zionism is solely based on the occupation. Before being confronted with the inhumane treatement of Palestianians, I was one of those who supported Israel and the ideology of Zionism. Israel would not need any need to protect itself from anybody, if it would live up to the ideal of real democracy (not this facade). Instead of mixing up antisemitism with actual criticism Israel supporters are digging Israel's grave

"The usual line: nobody cared." "In fact the rest of the world put its interests first." The second statement is true however it doesn't negate the "usual line" - it proves it. You can argue that the allies should have been indifferent to the the exterminations of civilians; but the fact that you ridicule people for resenting and being hurt by that is bizarre.

The first documented genocide is in the Book of Joshua (chapter 11 says "exterminated").

That does have the virtue of novelty. After all, there hasn't been a distinctly Norman nation for at least nine hundred years now. High time for a comeback? And hey...the Normans were big on recovering the Holy Land. Your claim's still good...

' They also refrained from intervening in 1942, when the acts of annihilation were already known. They did not bomb, even once, the railroad lines leading to the gas chambers and crematoria or the death camp itself...' And what good would it have done -- really? The Nazis were perfectly able to kill the Jews in situ -- they just found Auschwitz less offensive to their sensibilities. It's worth noting that it wasn't exactly easy to 'intervene' with Nazi Germany in 1942. In fact, they were pretty much out of control, to say the least. Then too, targets in Poland weren't exactly easy to reach. Witness the quite genuine inability of the Western powers to provide meaningful help to the Warsaw Uprising in 1944. Finally, such refusals were hardly unknown in Bomber Command. After all, in 1942 they also refused to support the Dieppe landing. Bomber Harris had his fixations, and he wasn't going to be distracted.

'..but a preplanned liquidation according to a well-thought-out program aimed at wiping an entire nation off the earth - that had not yet occurred...' Cartago delenda est? Genghis Khan managed to do away completely with several peoples as well. We don't know much about them for precisely that reason. However, a recurrence the middle of the twentieth century in Europe was certainly a shocker. That much is true. Then too, it kind of bankrupted the previous Jewish approach of just 'riding it out' whenever antisemitism flared.

Oh I see. So Israel is using the Holocaust as an excuse for it not to get out of the territories! Oh and poor Mr Abbas he's been so desparate to make a deal with nasty Mr Olmert and Mr Netanyahu and all.

"we must reach an agreement that will get us out of those territories". Yes, but what kind of agreement and with whom? Olmert already offered Abbas everything but he rejected it.

It is so sad that this writer believes that the Holocaust is protecting Israel. The memory of it protects all of humanity from genocides that Islamic regimes and others inflict on others. The Holocaust had nothing to do with the 3000 year connection the Jews have to Israel but everything to do with saving humanity. The world sleeps better for 60 years with Israel destroying terrorist acquisition of nuclear weapons. this is irresponsible journalism. Some where in the world genocides are happening in Darfur to the women in the congo and Israel stands against this. this article with the lack of compassionate wisdom and the spiritual forces makes me really cry

And do you wonder why antisemitism is on the increase?

"it is high time to establish the palestinian state" There is one. it's called Jordan

There is no such thing as "Greater Israel Dream" as you keep on writing, there has never been. People like you use it as an Anti Israel and anti-Semitic propaganda that's all. Israel accepted the Clinton peace proposal that would allow the creation of a Palestinian Arab state in WB and Gaza. It was Arabs who rejected it. If there is any great xxx dream it is the Hamas dream that expects a ME without Israel and this is what is preventing peace.

There is no such thing as "Greater Israel Dream" as you keep on writing, there has never been. People like you use it as an Anti Israel and anti-Semitic propaganda that's all. Israel accepted the Clinton peace proposal that would allow the creation of a Palestinian Arab state in WB and Gaza. It was Arabs who rejected it. If there is any great xxx dream it is the Hamas dream that expects a ME without Israel and this is what is preventing peace.

True in the past Israel has used the Holocaust to get things such as heavily subsidised weapons from Germany such as its submarine fleet and occasional political favors but in general Israel doesn't makes its own way based on its own merits. I am also pretty sure that Israel would prefer that the thing never happened rather than use the Holocaust for favors or rewards.

The article states that the nations of the world did nothing to stop the holocaust. This is utter nonsense. Britain and the Commonwealth nations declared war on Germany in 1939. The USA declared war on Germany in 1941 after having supplied material to Britain for two years prior to that. This was all done prior to the Wawanasee conference at which the decision was taken to exterminate Europe's jewish population. Thousands of americans, britons, canadians, australians, gave their lives to defeat Nazism. To suggest that Germany was given a free hand to conduct the Holocaust is an insult too often repeated.

Sir, the suffering of Europeans of mosaic belief in the Nazi occupied territories did not happen in the British Mandate over Palestine, however in big parts of Europe and my parents in over 40 years could not tell me of a paper indicating what the yishuv did to protect these people. The CSSR sent you the weapons because Jos. W. Stalin had the idea that the new state would become an ally and the Germans among many other reasons sent a lot of money because their first PM Adenauer could not have visited the US without that "money agreement" thanks to Nah. Goldmann, however that did not affect those "Jews" that returned to their homes in liberated Europe. But let's not forget Adenauer was not in favour of diplomatic relations; that was only achieved by Prof. Erhard's government.

There is no such thing as "Greater Israel Dream" as you keep on writing, there has never been. People like you use it as an Anti Israel and anti-Semitic propaganda that's all. Israel accepted the Clinton peace proposal that would allow the creation of a Palestinian Arab state in WB and Gaza. It was Arabs who rejected it. If there is any great xxx dream it is the Hamas dream that expects a ME without Israel and this is what is preventing peace.

nor to give them their Homeland back from usurpers, but brave British Heros who knew History and the Truth such as Winston Chrurchill. Churchill gave a famous speech in 1922 as follows: "It is manifestly right that the Jews who are scattered all over the world should have a national centre and national Home where some of them may be reunited and where else but in this Land of PALESTINE with which for more than 3000 years Jews have been intimately and profoundly associated...." In this Land of Palestine... Regards

Posted: "IDF will." G-d help us all. The IDF could not even beat the Hissballah in southern Lebanon. Keep dreaming.

The coward IDF will NOT go after any target that can strike back; they are really good at attacking those who do not have the means to defend themselves.

Why is the issue of opposition to Israel's occupation of the Palestinian Territories always linked to anti-Semitism? Maybe it will also be worth Israel's while to look at how you interact with people who don't share your biblical worldview as you try to claw your way back to international respectability. But blaming every shred of criticism on anti-Semitism makes it impossible for Israel to properly interpret valid criticism and to respond appropriately to it. Israel cannot employ the IDF against International Law any more than it can employ the bible against the international calls for Palestinian independence.

To Nick of South Africa and to all -- please read The Holocaut is Over:we must rise from the ashes by Avrum Burg -- a former speaker of the Knesset. He well addresses this point of view. And some may believe that the Holocaust is an exclusive club -- but recognizing the other 5 million souls who pershised due to the Nazis would show an understanding of humanity -- and the horror that befell many others .

Europeans demonized, excluded, persecuted and ultimately annihilated a dispersed Judean nation for close to 2000 years. Judeans began returning to Judea a hundred years before The Holocaust, which was the straw that broke the camel's back, causing a trickle to become a flood. To hell with "Europe's judgement" of Judea reborn. Never Again. Judea for Judeans!

....that the European (and elsewhere) mainstream, which I would still see myself as part of, will then shift from neutral to pro-Israel when it comes to the conflict between Israel and Iran/Hezbollah. And what is good for the mainstream European citizen, will then of course also be good for the mainstream political establishment in Europe (and elsewhere).....

I don't intend to be disrespectfull to the memory of the 6mil Jews. But Israel should stop capitalising on this tragedy. We still hear about the Holocaust almost every day, dozens of years after it happened. A new Holocaust movie every year. How often do we hear about the 27mil russians, and millions of others? The author of this article is correct. The sympathy for Israel is getting thinner every day. And it is not only because of what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. It is also the influence of Jewish money in world politics.

The occupation should end because it is wrong. The Europeans might very well continue to say nasty things about Jews anyway. It is an ancient tradition.

"Their culture"? Hit a policeman with a shoe? Just plead culture Needless to say in Edinburgh the demo included clogs and ski boots Or maybe you mean Brits getting terrorist training in Pakistan,that must be a multicultural experience for you

I agree that Israel must continue to grow stronger. I agree that anti-semitism is growing stronger as well. I do not agree that there is such a thing as occupation. To say that, negates all the the Hebrew people were and are, and negates the lives lost in the Holocaust. Anti-semitism is on the rise, because of propaganda---Goebbels has returned. Here in America, the media, with the exception of a few honest internet news agencies, continually portrays Israel as the perpetrator of all evil. In the universities and even high schools, the instructors preach sympathy for the Palestinians using fallacious history that can be easily disproved, but which few bother to fight. Israel must stand strong, because the rest of the countries have lost site of what is right.

The Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide, the Gulacs at Former Soviet Union, The Rwanda Genocide Must not be forgotten. Those cruelties against innocent people were not a Zeitgeist. We we have to look at the past to avoid the same thing in the future. We have to observer our govenments policies to avoid another genocide and we must never forget that "the man is a Wolf of the man"

thank you for mentioning the enormous sacrifice that russia brought to defeat the german aggressors. as we commemorate the liberation of the death camps in germany we should look also at the current situation in israel/palestine. palestinians had their share in sacrfices to compensate for the guilt feelings of the west and especially germany. it is high time to establish the palestinian state on 67 territories. if israel does not realize that this is imperative than we will soon talk about the 48 borders or a bi-national state.

One does not need to be a great expert to see that rabid anti-Semitism is still a prevailing attitude towards Jews in the Western Europe. With all the respect (or disrespect) to the Western Europeans, they pioneered the concept of total extermination of Jews (never happened in the Eastern Europe, though ?westerners? always blamed ?easterners? in making pogroms). The historical fact is that the complete extermination of Jews happened in most western countries (Spain, Portugal, France (twice), England, Austrian (three times), Denmark, various Germanic states (countless times), Sweden...). On the other hand, Jews suffered form Polish oppression from the end of fourteenth century? and comprised more than 10% of the population in 1939). Then the ?westerners?(=civilized Germans) came to kill them all. Conclusion: as long as the Western European civilization exists they will do all they can to achieve the ?final solution?.

"They did not bomb, even once, the railroad lines leading to the gas chambers and crematoria or the death camp itself, although there were thousands of air raids and tens of thousands of bombs dropped near Auschwitz ..." 1. You could only bomb the railway lines by mistake[or with great deal of fortune] with the limited abilities of allied bombers in WW2. 2. If the bombers *did* get lucky, the rail-lines could be replaced within hours. 3.If you attempted to bomb the crematoria, the same limitations applied with the added certainty that thousands would be killed in every attempt to do so. These crematoria could also be replaced within relatively short periods-or simply the Nazis would go back to earlier methods of killing. 4. Most American Jewish leaders in WW2 accepted this analysis and supported the argument that the best way to save lives was win the war as fast as was possible.

It's not just about Gentiles. The rich American Jewry did nothing to help either - but now they are stretching out their hands for Holocaust money. To the memory of Jan Karski, a Pole, who clandestinely went to Nazi-occupied Poland in 1942, got into the Belzec concentration camp, escaped out of the camp, escaped to Britain and toured Britain and the US with a report of what he saw. NOBODY was interested.

"until such a signed agreement guaranteeing Israel`s permanent borders is signed by all parties including Hamas and Hizbullah, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Iraq." a) Israel has such signed agreements with Egypt and Jordan. What else do you want? b) Even if all these agree to such an agreement - the israeli right will refuse, saying you cannot trust them.

i basically agree, anything "right wing" is difficult to deal with. But, peace between Israel and a Palestinian State will not dissuade forces beyond the two which will not accept Israel. They will still be agitators.

First of all this is another exemple of israeli self goal no one would speak about israel like this and get away with it but an israeli paper.. the world did not feel guilty when it made deals with iran such as switzerland and other nations do the world is not feeling guilty , look at today 's headlines, and has never felt too guilty because if the world would feel guilty the british would not have prevented jews from finding refuge in their homeland and they continue their antisemitic tradition europe now populated with moslems will not treat israel as a normal nation but expect israel to give up territory till it leaves maybe a nightclub in tel aviv as for territories, what is he talking about? where is the jewish nation supposed to live in high risers ? perhaps we should build a tower to reach the sky and then we can find a solution as to where to place the jewish nation which will hopefully grow in numbers in an ever shrinking land

From supplying the Arabs with more than enough weapons to destroy Israel several times over The craven surrender of Europe to Arab terror in the seventies, the French dual use reactor to Sadaam,missiles including blueprints and technology transfer showed nobody was overly concerned about anything except thei pockets and using the conflict to their own advantage

i think, that, if israel looks at hamas, hizbullah, syria, egypt, giordan, iran, saudi arabia, iraq and sees normal people and human beings instead of seeing terrorists, they could accept an obama's invitation to respond positively and all sign an agreement that will establish final and permanent borders.

Maybe not, but a nuclear deterrent might.

and your looser-leaders hide behind it. there is no need for peace, for agreements, for talks for being member of the international community, for complying with international law, or with anything the world considers as an achievement after WWII, as long as they can hide behide their army. i agree, those guys will pull their vehicle out of the mud. but - do you need a PM for this ? do you need a foreign minister ?

Jews do not ignore other victims, however the Final Solution was directed against one nation and that was the Jews. As for the Palestinians, Israel does not deny tham a state. They deny themselves a state by rejecting every proposal since the early 20th century and willing the destruction of the Jewish state above their own nationalist aspirations.

it is the dedication of the men and women of the idf.that alone protects the jewish nation in its homeland.almost thirty thousand jewish lives have been lost defending israel.two thousand seven hundred idf soldiers in the yom kippur alone.

In a couple of generations, Israel will be able to cast off the traumatic shadow under which the country was founded. More and more young people are daring to redefine their need to feel secure in non-military ways. Their elders would do well do heed the message of Hajo Meyer, survivor of Auschwitz in his book "The End of Judaism".

only kids think highly of adults.....

When citing the decision not to bomb the rail lines to the death camp you prove my point. Oberkommando der Wehrmacht wanted rail transports to Auschwitz stopped on the grounds that they were using too much scarce rail capacity, harming their military effort on the Eastern Front. Is it your position that the Allies should have taken an action which would help German military efforts and lengthened the war? Was it our duty to save Eastern European civilians or our own people?

After reading comments here it seems that the holocaust rememberance is not only used to preemptively attack people but it also serves as a reset button for all arguments which are no doubt not Israels fault now. Just get on with peace and no more killing

....or the Jewish Diaspora. If right-wing Israel and their buddies overseas prevail, the Jewish Diaspora as a whole will suffer (the local Jewish communities in France and Great Britain already got a little foretaste of things to come during the last Intifada, though I see the biggest danger on the long term for the Jewish community in the U.S., at least if AIPAC, ADL and the Neoconservatives continue to act as they did over the past 2 decades). On the other hand, if there soon will be a compromise worked out between Israelis and Palestinians, anti-Israel (and with that anti-Jewish) sentiments around the world will diminish rather quickly, but right-wing Israel will suffer, because the "Greater Israel" dream will be gone. As I mentioned above, there can only be one winner/loser here, either right-wing Israel or the Jewish Diaspora...

in only the fact that the nazis used the best technology that science had to offer and cadavars became commodities. However it was not the only campaign to wipe a nation off the Earth. Armenians come to mind, and leafing through the history books Carthage becomes a fact, the first documented genocide aimed at wiping out an entire people. We comemmorate the memory of the Holocaust in January as a way of placating Israel that we are not rampant anti semites, and we teach our kids about it to justify the bombing campaigns against german cities. Face it, it is a good counter against charges we committed genocide. However, and herein lies the rub the constant referral to the Holocaust by Netanyahu is making it acceptable to compare Israel with the nazis. Which shows that hiding behind the corpses of 6 million dead has lost it's affect to silence Israel's critics, and is now used to cow Israelis into submission as politicians scream existential threat.

Lots of Jews don;t want to be considered Jewish. It's because they listen to the Jew hatred and don't look at the facts. To even vaguely equate the industrial extermination of an entire ethnicity with Israel's reluctance to keel over in the face of Arab demands shows a phenomenal lack of perspective & absence of education. Read more, Nico. Read about how the Palestinians have been used as pawns by Arab leaders to keep a front open against Israel even once her viability as a nation had been tested through several wars & an ongoing PR battle aimed at the likes of yourself. Read about how willing the "freedom fighter" leaders are to see their children die by kill Israeli civilians, whilst these leaders hide in mosques & schools. Palestinians would have a State tomorrow if it was up to most Jews. A peaceful one even though it would be on Land which has been Jewish since the Arabs lived in Arabia. But the Palestinians need first to be led by Rule of Law and a constructive mindset

Israel, all of it basically, is a settler society. Yes, Jews lived there in small numbers during the Arab and Ottoman periods, but modern Israel is the creation of an influx mainly European Jews and Jews from Muslim countries in the last century. It has no very deep roots in the area and little connection with the surrounding societies that have existed for millennia. As Shtrasler so correctly says, the cover the Holocaust gave Zionism has basically expired. That means Israel has two choices: Zimbabwe or South Africa. Israel can continue further along the path of ethnocracy that leads to isolation and eventually defeat. Or it can choose the South Africa route and embrace ALL the cultures within its borders and acknowledge the wrongs done to ALL of them. It would still be a country with a strongly Jewish flavour, but it would also have a strongly Arab and Muslim flavour. I'm not sure there is a third way, unless Islamophobia sweeps Europe and Israel uses the cover to expel Arabs.

To add another dimension to Robert's post, what is also missing in this column is the fact that Europe's Muslim population has grown immensely since the end of WWII so any action that Israel takes to defend itself against attacks from Gaza or the West Bank or any other Arab entity is going to generate significant anti-semitic violence in Europe. TC - Yasser Arafat walked away from the most generous offer any Israeli government has ever presented and opted instead to start the 2nd intifada. Once bitten, twice shy.

Olmert offered Abbas a state in around 95% of the West Bank and some sharing arrangements in Jerusalem, and it was rejected; Sharon and Olmert made it clear that the withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 would be followed by negotiations and other withdrawals in the West Bank IF there was quiet in the South; the Pals response was rocket fire and terrorist attacks; Barak made the offer to Arafat at Camp David in 2000 and it was rejected; the Pals could have had their state in the WB, Gaza and east Jerusalem at any time between 1949 and 1967 but the Arabs did nothing; the UN Partition Plan of 1947 was rejected by the Arabs.... Do you finally get the point?

jewish people should be more productive to exploit the natural resources of Israel, should expand its economy; try to imitate Taiwan rather than Singapore. Then the Arabs and its other foes will realise it is invincible and give up...

It's easy to sit behind your prejudice and fear and proclaim there is non solution to Israel's quandary. "Even if we offer justice, it will be rejected by ..."(you pick a name). Well, make the offer. Those who reject a just solution will be rejected by a world praying for a just and peaceable solution to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict---no matter which side does the rejecting. What have you got to lose?

It will be always for the worse, Mr. Shtrasler, always. That's called anti-Semitism. And it's older than you and your arguments. Don't forget that most of the British empire led in 1947 - 1949 to independent nations: India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Ceylon, Israel, Palestine (which squandered its chance) and many more. It's much more than just guilt-feelings. Last but not least, bothe the Soviets and the Americans thought they could get Israel to be if not a vassal, an ally. There was a strong leftist ethos, and also a strong pro-freedom and pro-American ethos. The 1947 partition vote made that clear too.

I have a Jewish mother, but I refuse to identify as Jewish, because I see as much evil in the forty-year long and continuing denial of freedom for an entire nation by my mother's people as I do in the premeditated mass-murder of 6 million of her people. As much in the mass-murder of a million and more gays, Roma, Poles and others during that same Holocaust that my mother's people suffered. Why do Jews insist that only THEIR losses be recognized as Holocaust? That THEIR losses constitute true evil, but not their atrocities and abuses against others? That the true evil lies in the numbers of dead Jews, but that the million gays and Roma and Poles and people with disabilities who died in the Holocaust did not suffer evil? What an utterly ridiculous argument!!!

How getting out of the territories help? Has Israel given enough land back for peace;and their is no peace yet. How much do they have to give before it is enough. Mennonites were prescuted and died for because their religon did not allow their men to fight in wars. All those who stayed there were all killed.

It is a matter of public record that both Roosevelt and Churchill made the conscious decision NOT to bomb the rail line to Auschwitz-Birkenau even though they were bombing railways all around them for two years from 1943-1945. Bombing those rails would have been a matter of one flight out of nearly 3,000 that were being made every day then. The fact of the matter is that doing so would have taken away Roosevelt's anti-semitic vote - which at the time was 30% of his voter base! Moreover, it is well known that both Downing Street and Washington knew of Germany's intentions and actions to annihilate the Jews since around 1941-1942. Also, Jewish leaders who begged to Roosevelt to conduct a rescue operation because they heard rumors of the Germans' atrocities was received exactly your answer - "after careful examination we decided not to do so because it would divert the war effort". However they did divert the war effort by sending planes to rescue some horses that the Nazis had stolen.

It sounds like the only thing that would make Israel "moral" is to get out of the territories. Isnt that what Rabin and Peres were trying to do when buses blew up all over Israel and Arabs danced. Palestinians have to ante up a huge escrow that will be paid to Israel, when they continue violence even when Israel becomes "moral" and gives up the territories

First of all 3,000,000 non-Jewish Poles were exterminated in the Camps and 1,500,000 Jews were exterminated. The Jews have no corner on holocausts. Roughly 23,000,000 were exterminated by Stalin during the purges and WWII. It is estimated that 15,000,000 Natives of the Americas were exterminated. In fact Hitler based his "Final Solution" on how the Americans dealt with the Indians. Let's tell the truth and quit manufacturing historical events to your benefit. No other race or ethnic group has received the recompensation except the Israeli's. If you want to be truthful.

"There has been no shortage of atrocities throughout history, but a preplanned liquidation according to a well-thought-out program aimed at wiping an entire nation off the earth - that had not yet occurred." I wish I could agree that were the case. Sad to say, there have been such preplanned "liquidations" before (Armenians, American Indians), and have been since (Cambodia, Rwanda). This doesn't make the Holocaust any less tragic, but is a solemn reminder that the world we live in can be a dark one.

you said everything man....for you it were "those" people...but for us it was "our" people.

that it wasn't necessarily a conscious choice that was made; but rather a complete oversight, instead. Like you've said, the driving focus was to destroy the Nazi war machine. And while there's NO excuse for the tracks, if it was indeed considered, there would have been the question over the inmate deaths that would have resulted its bombing. In hindsight, we know that it likely would not have matched that which was taking place, but the Allied decision makers didn't possess OUR hindsight.

to Potobac: why do not let jews to flee from nazi to Alaska? It is not about resources needed for war. And you know it.

You are dead wrong. I am one of those persons who applauded Israel's fight for statehood and stood with it before the occupation and illegal settlements. This did not make me anti-semitic, rather anti-settlements and anti-occupation,etc. Israelis must get to the Green Line, otherwise the world will no longer support it. Israel can demand and get US support of protection if and only if this is done. Finally, the posting here that the IDF will protect Israel against the world is delusional at best.

But it would be nice to add that withdrawing from the occupied terrority is the right thing to do. Never again to anyone, anywhere, includes ening persecution of the Palestinians.

which neither the holocaust, nor the guilt can eliminate. And which continues to pose a threat to jews. That they cannot recognize the inherent contradiction of locking a spiritual belief to a material land. They have made idols out of their bible book, their history and their city. All that Abraham said don't do - they have done in the name of Abraham.

We survived up to now by out sure determination and hard fight. This is the way it was and will be until the Arabs accept us permanent neighbors. Self reliance. Nothing else.

The usual line: nobody cared. In fact the rest of the world put its interests first. Thousands of the world's troops were being killed and wounded every day. Should we have diverted military effort to save those people or used it to end the war as soon as possible and save our people?

IDF will.

The problem as I see it is that the rising anti-semitism and anti-Israeli/zionist feelings around the world have litte to do with the occupation. Even if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders and returns East Jerusalem to the Palestinians, the issue of refugees will still be present. The Arabs will want more and more and with their oil leverage and increasing Muslim population in Europe and America, hatred of Israel and the Jews will continue until Israel ceases to exist as a State. Only if the Palestinians and the Arab States sign that the border is final and permanent will there be a chance for peace. Israel should therefore reject any compromise that weakens its'security until such a signed agreement guaranteeing Israel's permanent borders is signed by all parties including Hamas and Hizbullah, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

I don't think anyone feels guilty for it. The people of today had nothing to do with it so why should they feel any guilt. " The world feels guilty because the murder of Europe's Jews was unprecedented in the annals of humankind." Wrong. We all have our own nations, history and past. We know that killing people is wrong but, when it come to sheer scale there's no bigger than WWII itself. Each nation lost millions of their own people and we've put it behind us. How many died through Lenins Gulags ? How many died during the Holodomor ? Rwanda, Armenia and Pol Pot. It's not a competition nor should the world feel any guilt for all the other atrocities in history.

It's nice how you mentioned the contributions of countries like Germany and Czechoslovakia. Israel was an easier solution to getting rid of Europe's 'problem' than giving back the homes and property of the victims. Guilt tinged with a profit motive.

Remembering the holocaust has everything to do with our own understanding and response: To be ethical and humane in our actions and to defend our nation from global assault in a strong, united, and unwavering manner.