The anatomy of hating Israel

No one with any sense or understanding believes ISRAEL is a terroist group. I think Israel showed restraint. If Hezbo cared about the Lebanese women and children they would not hide behind them and fire Missles. Its amazing that so many people are deceived. Why cant these Arabs see the error of their way. Israel is and will be.

"I have no electoral vote in those policies of the "Jewish State" which are conducted in my name (i.e. as a Jew). I can certainly sympathize with Mike. But as a non-Jewish American, I am somewhat in the same boat. I am identified with the policies of an administration and government with which I thoroughly disagree. In one sense they conduct their ME policy "in my name," as well.

Avi Shlaim didn't mention that terrorists in Palestinian territories exploit the poverty of their own people by offering young boys new pairs of jeans & cheap cell phones to lure them into their deaths as suicide bombers. The root cause of all the problems in the world (except for Sri Lanka) is the backwardness of Muslims (of course not all of them. There are moderate states such as Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, Saudi Arabia,...) who blindly believe in the Koran which litters with versions of making war, killings & beheading non-muslims, murders. Do you know that when a Muslim became a sultan, he HIMSELF would strangle ALLofhisbrothers? The fact that Syria's assad, the iranian psychotic ahmadinejad, the satanic nasrallah, and pea-minded muslims are bragging that hezbollah won the war (which is not true - The Jews thwarted their malicious plan of destroying Israel) speaks volume of the inferiority complex which has ingrained deeply in the psyche of Muslims whose only contribution to the 21st

another view...problem from here is it seems that the arrogance that Avraham Tal accuses others of has bled into the psyche of the israelis (and him). And the rest of us on the planet suffer because you wont give the palestinians ago at all. here's the nub..you all have to live tiogether and everyone has l;osty sight of it. what a tragedy

Yes I agree. Its just like all those other "isms". Communism, Fascism, Zionism.

That you would embrace Hezzbolah, unquestionably a radical Islamic terrorist organization, by dint of the observation that Hezzbolah conducts terrorism a little differently tactically, indicates that you are probably beyond hope and redemption. Good, you say, they're killing Israeli boys, which boys have never known peace because of non-stop Arab/Muslim aggression, aggression supported by monstrous ideologues like you. You conveniently ignore that Hezzbolah, while it plays the P.R. game, employs as a central strategy terror against civilians, and the use of civilians, to their detriment and, often death, in service of its goals. You are the ideological enemy in the war against terrorism.

So, what part of the international community do you see as imposing this peace plan in the middle east? I don't even see them coming up with a 'peacekeeping' force, let alone a 'peace imposition' force. Malaysia and Indonesia? Yeah, right. France? Only in Francois' dreams. Italy is at least willing to give the UN a firm number as to how many they will send, while France still dithers. The Turks say they will 'peacekeep' and at the same time have designs on the north of Iraq. New Zealand says they will go, but Australia had said no last I heard. I am not trying to be a smart aleck, I'm really curious as to the solution you see as possible.

"we are the Chosen People so we are perfect" YOU are the only one I have seen adding 'so we are perfect' to this statement and since it is clearly what you hear everytime the phrase occurs it is obvious that it really gets your knickers in a twist. Why is that? Are you THAT insecure? Every religion I've ever studied has believed that theirs is the one true path. Navajos call themselves 'human beings' and yet I don't take it as a personal affront. And this rant has WHAT to do with Avi Shlaim? Just an excuse to vent?

...the Arabs couldn't have found a more devoted spokesman if they'd hired one. So, for how long have you felt that the ones who start wars deserve to get everything they want w/o taking one iota of responsibility for their own actions? The Arabs didn't want the 1967 borders in 1967, that's why they're whining to get them back now. And, until they ALL sign on to accepting UN resolutions, why should Israel be the only one in compliance? We can go back to pre-1950 and wait for the Arabs to acknowledge Israel, but you'll be an old man w/ a long grey beard before the Arabs comply. Go find that campfire and sing Kumbaya until it happens.

...the Quran, huh?

...billions of $$$ to feed your children. Only sub-Saharan Africa had a lower per capita income because G.A. Nassar thought it more important to spend moneu on bombs to kill Jews than food/health care for babies.

I loved the way you think.and i assure you that we love peace and that we could live with jews,with israel if only jews would let us live.What they unfortunately did in my country is moving the conflict inside(which is more dangerous)worked on an ethnical purge in lebanon and made hezbollah more powerful internally.

The author defends Dan Halutz's criminal disregard for the "collateral damage" caused by Israel's policy of assassinating Palestinian freedom fighters/terrorists (call them what you like) by saying that "Halutz was referring to the bombing of a Gaza building where a Palestinian arch-terrorist had been located.", in fact Halutz was speaking generally, although the interview being conducted was in reference to the assassination of Salah Shehadeh in autumn 2002 and the murder of 15 'uninvolved civilians' (Halutz's choice of phrase, apparently since they're Palerstinian they're always guilty of something desvering their execution, they just might not be the target at that time). Halutz is war criminal, but no more so that the politicians who propose or consent to these tactics.

...their role in the Rwandan massacre and the way they're forcing women to submit to their hiv+ husbands w/o condoms to bring into the world infants who will be hiv+ orphans.

....from start to finish. ARREST of two soldiers? Who the heck are you trying to kid? Since when does an armed militia from one country get to enter a soverign nation across an internationally recognized border and kill 8 soldiers in order to "arrest" two others? As for a "true holocaust" that is just beyond ignorant and there is no excuse for that kind of rhetoric; if you think being filled with hate makes some kind of point, you might want to rethink just what that point really is in the eyes of your readers. Go rent an Oliver Stone flick, Kennedy is probably right up your alley.

All these I really doesnt give a damn what happened in Middle East, but with this recent confrontation , with Isreal I would say intentionally creating such a mess in Lebanon that I am seeing Israel as indeed the bully and evil one in Middle East. Shame of you Israel..

Yeah, right!!!

Israel = Al-Queda Yup I see no difference at all. I only see terror. Full comprehensive peace is the only way to prove that the above statment isnr true.

...and while we're at it, there goes Pakistan. And Bangladesh, and I guess the Albanians will haul their sorry backsides out of Kosovo. Any thought on who should have Alsace? So, if you're so bored, why did you bother to inflict this garbage on the rest of us?

'Anti-semitism' and 'Israel/Jew-hating' are terms that have been so overused that they no longer have any force or meaning. Jews and Isrealis, whether for political or other reasons, have used such phrases so often to denounce any critics of Israel that they have rendered them meaningless. Also, by applying the same terms to both murderous terrorists and to rational, reasoned critics of Israel and its supporters, Isreal's apologists have further downgraded the utility of even thinking in these terms. Avi Shlaim is a serious, reasoned critic of Isreal who has written a book based on considerable research conducted primarily out of the Israeli State archives. You may not agree with him (or others); he may even have some things wrong, but to call him an 'Israel-Hater' and link him with anti-semitism, as many have on this board, is unfair, irrational and profoundly undemocratic.

ONE GOD

'Yes, but not today' is how Israel is tackling the Lebanese and Palestinian issue. Conflict in connotation terms is an indicative of a problem. Disagreement feels uncomfortable and threatening. When there's no open conflict we can carry on as though things are all right even if we know they aren't. The main reason to engage in conflict is to reach a resolution. Without resolution, conflict merely becomes an opportunity to recycle old arguments and disagreements Here is the name of the Game. Israel is defending-to the extent of mass murdering- the holy promised land by the name of its holy book, Lebanon, Palestine and others are defending their land as well by the name of another Holy Book. This will lead us to conclude that the conflict is farfetched from being political, rather it is a conflict and struggle of cultures. Such forms of conflicts take a lot more time to be resolved for that they require understanding and acceptability. Two things neither Israel or Arabs are willing to accept and adopt. The difference is that Israel is well equipped-politically and tactically-and it is utilizing this to the best possible advantage, and Arabs are not, so they are investing in hatred and long term commitments to exile the Zionist movement. And this will do nothing but widen the scope and depth of the problem.Israel for God's sake stop the killing machine, and try to accept others. You will see that violence will slow down, because at the end of the day,it is a Reaction

It is noticeable that the Al Qaida tactics of videoed beheadings and suicide bombing of civilians has been notably absent from Hezbollah's tactics. They captured soldiers, they destory tanks, they encourage attacks on soldiers. It true that they have fired misslies into Israel and terrorised the Israeli population, but they have not been able to match Israel in the terrorising or mass killing of civilians. Six years ago they assasinated the Israeli proxy at the head of the SLA, but they have not been able to match Israel for assasination. I hope that Hezbollah has shown other Arab movements that targetting the Israeli military is a better long term strategy than targetting Israeli civilians. Their tactics are still mixed, but they are increasingly a disciplined army rather than a group of terrorists.

I suggest you read "from time immemorial" by Joan Peters for true unbiased research. You may then come to a different conclusion, when you learn about the huge number of Arab workers imported by the British into Palestine only 2 years before 1948. Dig deep into census records & learn how few Arabs had truly deep roots in Palestine (2 years or less is not deep), & how demographics were manipulated by the British. Learn also about dhimmi- how terribly Jews were treated in Arab countries - dhimmi means 2nd class citizen or worse. Palestinians in 1948 were encouraged by their leaders to leave Palestine due to the upcoming war. Their leaders promised that after the war they could come back & have all the land taken from the Jews. Oops, but then the Arabs lost the 1948 war. Israeli Arabs (who remained)are probably better off than Arabs in most Arab countries. If the Palestinians would truly commit to peace, Israel would help them build their part of the country into something beautiful.

terrorist acts against their govts, led by none other than ---- Yasssar Arafat! Don't believe me? Fine! you may choose to remain ignorant or just look up Black September when King Hussein of Jordan had to mass murder over 10,000 Arafat led Palestinians for their constant seiges to protect his country! During the 67 Arab, Israeli wars, Israel conquered Jordan! After the wars, Israel offered to return the West Bank & Gaza back to Jordan but the Jordanian govt. refused, as it would bring back the Palestinians! How relieved they were to just dump them on Israel to deal with! NOW THEY OCCUPY ISRAELS LAND! So what does Israel do? THEY MAKE PEACE OFFERINGS TO THE PALESTINIANS! Is there ANYONE who can deny this or the fact that NEVER has a single Arab nation even cared or dared to treat the Palestinians with such human diplomacy?

Ok everyone! lets just deal with the truth! Even a fool should know that the most important event in all of Jewish history was the migration out of Egypt at or around 1250 BCE! It gave them an identity, a nation & a founder! Even the first line of Exodus will PROVE the establishment of ISRAEL at this time! Fair enough everyone? Now to the " Palestinians." The name " Palestine " was created & first used by the Roman emperor Hadrian at or around 132 AD! Any history book on the Mid East, even by non Jewish authors or sources will verify this! The name was chosen to insult the Jews for their resistance to the might of Rome during the Masada & Bar-Kochbah revolts to preserve their freedom! So everyone, can we all now agree that the first " Palestinians "---- WERE JEWS! So then, from where, when & why did todays Palestinians arrive in the West Bank & Gaza where they still reside? Reasonable question? Todays Palestinians were driven out of most Arab nations for their criminal,

as long as shlaim,or anyone,speaks/writes,it's o.k. nobody cares anyway,nor is influenced by the other side's views.the problem starts when words turn to arms.then it's too late.i consider the israeli policies,especially since 1967 horribly&tragically wrong.does that make me an israel hater?no-it makes me more of a patriot,desiring a future for his offspring&country.

The amount of virulence and hatred displayed in these responses is deafening!!

You should be very careful not to bring out that old and well-used canard of anti-semitism. If just people see Israel as it now stands, an empire without clothing, and state those bare facts, it in no way means they are anti-semitic. If you continue defining critics of Israel in this way, you run the risk of them wearing that banner proudly. And, I think we would both agree, that would not lead to anything positive.

Rules: 1) No imflamatory language 2) Check your facts 3) Examine the motivation before the argument If these rules could be followed by every post, maybe there would be a point to all this.

Why is it that when someone writes an article critical of the actions of the Israeli government they are accused of 'hating israel'?

israel did try to give you an example what will happen to you next time. you did permit hizballa to attack us, exelent- you should pay for this with your infrastructure. i think israel was extremely genteel, we should destroy all of your infrastructure next time. you are cowards and losers.

shalom, arabs as a civilization are big losers and we as jews are biggest winners in history, they are scum of the world and we are the best of the world, so they hate us. simple. even such antysemite as toynbee understood that.

whose names I will not repeat here.

AFTER DOING UNBIASED RESEARCH..I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE COUNTRY OF ISRAEL WAS FOUNDED ON LIES, CONSPIRACY, AND BETRAYAL. ABOVE ALL..MY HEART GOES OUT TO THE PALESTINIANS WHO'S ENTIRE BEING HAS BEEN SYSTEMATICALLY DESTROYED BY THE ISRAELIS. WHILE I DONT SUPPORT THE VIEW THAT ISRAEL SHOULD BE DESTROYED..I DO BELIEVE THAT A FAIR AND EQUITABLE ALTERNATIVE EXISTS. HOWEVER, I DOUBT THE ISRAELIS WILL PLAY FAIR AND BARGAIN IN GOOD FAITH.

Gina, by "you" I'm collectively referring to Israel AND its opponents. Including the attitude and policies you personally seem to support. If you'll read my posting more carefully, you'll note that I'm referring to all participants in this Hell in the Holy Land that has brought down calamity on the world and may well bring on a third world war: the kind of apocalyptic disaster that evangelicals are prophesizing. Israeli and American policies in that region -- coupled with those of their Muslim opposition .. have only brought this disaster closer. The only potential solution now -- in that hapless region's own interest, as well as the world's -- may be that the international community intervene with all the aggressiveness necessary and apply this intervention to molding a solution on all parties. The time for letting these parties solve their own problem is nearing its end. My fear is that the international community is just as hapless.

..."symptoms of Israel`s criminality, racism and savagery." I suppose Al Qaida's terrorist organization's video display of beheadings - Daniel Berg for ex. - is a Bugs Bunny cartoon!!.

Chris that would be the same Reuters of the photograph scandals wouldn't it. Well, I guess we should believe them on this because you say it's ok. Let's go ask the arabs to confirm and then we have covered all our bases.

The problem with academics is they don't live in the REAL world.

i just saw in the news that 3700 civilian iraquis were killed only in july by terror attacks by fellow muslim "brothers". does anyone here blaming israel of whatever you want have any comment on this absurd situation. in particular, the unbalance of positions, meaning that if muslims kill muslims thats normal, but if an infidel does it, no matter the reason, then jihad? i think you should check again, as mr shlain, what is the definition of terrorism. maybe he missed that day in school as well as many posters.

read this, "the untold story of gaza.

Your analysis is right on, save for the fact that you have to admit that Hezbollah did the same thing that Israel did. So really we need to call spades, spades: both sides practiced terror by knowingly targeting civilian populations. The only difference is that one was a loose group of fighters, the other a sovereign state.

for your information, the idf targeted hezbollah wearing civilian clothes. who wants to make peace with these muslims countries.their god is different from the god of Israel.

"You won`t be back in Lebanon any time soon." Israel is in Lebanon now.

"Meanwhile you have all brought endless calamity to the world it represents. " How have I brought endless calamity to the world? I am not an Islamic Imam justifying the suicide bombers as virtuous. I'm an American. "But now that the U.N. set the pre-67 line as Israel`s border," Guess you never bothered to read the Security Resolution. The Arabs refused to recognize Israel, thus Israel is under no mandate. "Nor in so many other ways comply with international views:" The international community also finds Islamic support for terrorism and honor killing as barbatic and inhumane. Are you calling for the Islamic world to give up its sanctioning of terrorism as a negotiating tactic? I haven't seen any mention in your posts.

i believe God of Israel protected them.the jewish people are apple of God's eye.

Mr. Kopel, first, you conflate anti-Israel with anti-Semitic with anti-Jew. The failure to make this key distinction is all too characteristic amongst our people and raises all sorts of questions about your principle point about Haaretz. For, second, since one of the most admirable qualities of our Jewish tradition is passionate exchange of views and exhaustive self-scrutiny, Haaretz stands out as guardian of this tradition. Consequently, third, you might try to preserve our tradition by making the sort of distinctions you haven't here. Finally, I am a Jew. I have defended Israel all my 77 years, but I am also a serious critic of current Israeli policy. I am also an American. Thus, I have no electoral vote in those policies of the "Jewish State" which are conducted in my name. Haaretz offers the freest vehicle for such expression. If you want only to hear from clones, subscribe to a party-line paper. I salute Haaretz for embodying the best of our Jewish tradition.

WHY WOULDNT THE HEZZBOLLA MARCH TO MEET ISRAEL ON THE BORDER???COME ON LOSERS STOP HIDING BEHIND THE CIVILIANS..

Mike, the UN has NOT "set the pre-67 line as Israel's border". Look up the resolution and commentary around it. Israel is to withdraw from territory (note not all territory) occupied as a result of the Six Day War, but ONLY in concert with negotiations with Egypt, Jordan and Syria over where the borders between them should be drawn and with the assurance that the borders would be respected by both parties in each case. Egypt and Israel agreed that Egypt would get Sinai back but not Gaza in the Camp David Accord (for which Sadat was assassinated by extremist Egyptians), and Jordan relinquishd any right to the West Bank. Syria and Israel have not yet come to an agreement.

I hold no brief for the New Historians, but it's possible to be a Zionist and criticize this war effort. Some soldiers get killed/kidnapped, and we start a "shock and awe"-type bombing spree? Didn't work in Iraq, didn't work in Lebanon. Attack Beirut when most of the Hezbo fighters and rocket launchers are south of the Litani? Starting the ground invasion everyone knew was necessary the day the UN starts negotiating the cease fire agreement? Maybe diplomacy is not the answer, but the Israeli government screwed up big time this past month. I just hope the mistakes won't haunt us for years.

Hezbollahs and Pals would like a world where the can attack Israel at will, kill and kidnap soldiers, and Israel can only negotiate. Why should any nation on this earth have to live like that! Anyone? I mean fairly?

........Why? And how not? I can't help it, my family can't help it, my friend can't help it, my mates(journalists)can't help it, and every spanish citizen concerned about the world can't help pit. Don't be so simple. The question is not "why do they hate us?", but "how could we be forgiven?" It's not just about Lebanon, it's about the world. Your foreign affairs work as the US' foreign politics. You two want to seize the world, half for you and half for me. God (whoever God is) can't help it. He can't help it not to forgive you as you think YOU'RE GOD. It must be a nightmare; you couldn't have killed all those people, here and there; Palestine and Lebanon, and in the begin...don't forget it, you killed people while being terrorist in order to have the other's land. Do you really thing the Bible is on your side? And the human Justice? And, worst of it, I believe, sincerely, that most of your citizens thing all the same, like robots. The same as the US people.

In perusing the Israeli and Jewish press during the war, I found that Haaretz wins hands down in attracting the most virulently anti-Israel crowd in its feedback sections. The kind of feedback I am referring is not merely criticism of Israel's conduct of the war but total demonization of Israel's intentions, which are routinely depicted as unprovoked and willful murder. Why do these individual tune in to Haaretz in such high numbers?. I believe it is because Haaretz is more likely to features the work of Jewish Israel-bashers like Schlaim, Levy, ect. who validate their primitive prejudices with an enlightened 'insider's' take. Once you can point to a couple Jews or Israeli's who agree with you, you are off-the hook from charges of anti-Semitism and your views are objectified. Thus, Israel and jew-haters should thank Haaretz for this forum, which provides both a cathartic and rationalizing experience for them.

Israel bloodied Hezbollah, Hezbollah only understands force. This war is a warm up for a bigger one with Iran. Syria is not a factor so look east to Iran. As a side note, how would Hezbollah define a war that they lost ?

i think you have me mixed up with an early pioneer in Israel's history, now long dead, who by the way was for some recognition of palestinian (arab) rites. but of course & sadly for this he was assasinated by more extreme zionists. so like i said , racism pure & simple. i don't think the people of the US would stand for such racism if they knew the truth. & i never said i was a jew

You write "But now that the U.N. set the pre-67 line as Israel`s border, I don`t see Israel rushing to comply." UNSCR242 requires "Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" [note that it doesn't say "all territories" nor did it intend to]; and simultaneously "Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force". Israel and Egypt negotiated an agreement whereby Israel returned Sinai and Egypt relinquished Gaza. Similarly, Jordan has relinquished any claim to the West Bank. Israel is in full compliance with this resolution and it has no unilateral obligations under it.

Dear Avraham, Do not equate criticism with hatred. I too criticise Israel but it does not mean that I hate jews.

It's not surprising regarding the article published. Educated people like Avi Shlaim speaks blindly and support Islamic terrorism then what could we think about other people. These are the people who are pounding and spreading extreme hatred against Jewish, no doubt, like Iranian president, they believe in destroying Israel. It's quite irony that people like him should spread the message of peace and brotherhood, instead they are spreading messege of hatred.

"one of israels weak points is its inablity to take any kind of criticism." Talk about inability to accept criticism. How about that poor Palestinian who was beaten to death by an angry mob for making an uncomplimentary comment about Nasrallah. I bet his family won't get to see any justice for his cold blooded murder. This is the kind of intolerant mindset you all are defending.

of Avraham Tal appears to be what the article is mostly about.

Mike: I too am all for cutting out ad hominem attacks. I am also for balanced analysis. None of your comments indicate the slightest appreciation for the Israeli position. You simply pick out every Israeli action to which you object and concede nothing with respect to any wrongdoing by any Arab. Neither side here has a monopoly on virtue. Similarly, neither side has cornered the market on vice. I sincerely believe there would be a greater chance of peace in this neighborhood if the rhetoric was toned down. I don't think any criticism of Israel is motivated by anti-semitism but I distrust intensely anyone who attributes the whole mess to Israel alone.

Not to worry ANN America will ( God willing ) always support Israel.I like my money being used by Israel. Do check that Egypt and other middle eastern countries are 2nd & 3rd on our list.These countries use our money against us.So I think if we were to stop supporting any country it should be the countries that harbor terrorists. I dont know why we sent Aid to Lebanon the same country that refuses to Disarm Hizbullah who is responsible for the bombing Marine Barracks in Lebanon. So I suggest you rethink your opinion.

So nobody can criticize Israel's behaviour without being called an antisemite and a Israel hater? Come on and have a look at reality : the people of Israel were the victims more than 60 years ago, but it is now obvious that you are the torturers!! It's OK : nobody is perfect and everybody has a right to make mistakes! But please stop parroting the "we are victims of the holocaust" and "we are the Chosen People so we are perfect" lines!

Anon writes: "did arabs hate jews before the establishment of israel?" Of course they did. Jews getting access to pray at the Western Wall in August 1929 sparked off riots in Hebron and Safed. Hundreds of Jews were killed by Arabs. By 1936, any surbviving Jews were driven out of Hebron. More than 700 Jews were killed by Arabs in British mandate Palestine between 1936-1939. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem personally met with Hitler and was responsible along with other Muslims for training SS units in Bosnia. See more on the subject here: http://emperors-clothes.com/bosnia/svijet.htm

Israel still to this day does not have a clear border that is instilled in its constitution. It just grabs what it can. 1967 borders are the 1949 armistice boarders, that are larger than the original 1947 borders. 1967 war started on the Golan heights in the form of daily clashes over the gradual land grab by Israel as documented by the UN observers. Your "smart" arguments are old.try something new,like making a bold move for real peace as offered by the Saudi initiative.Israel cannot exist forever in a state of perpetual war against its environment.If the hostilities are not diffused ,sooner or later it will disappear.Think future.

Avi Shlaim is a scholar and not a propagandist. His writing is fact based, and, as a good scholar, he tells the whole truth even when it hurts. I don't think he takes great pleasure in it, but you cannot base policy on myth and spin. Policy must be based on the real facts on the ground, and not on preconceptions or assumptions. He is not "revising" history! he is looking at historical facts and subjecting them to analysis. You should be proud of him!

He may be British, but he certainly is not an Israeli. He is pumping out more liberal, revisionist trash. He is the kind that cannot even see his own reflection in a mirror, so why expect anything close to the truth? He must only follow the BBC news and al Jazeera! Typical...

Gina, I refer you to your reply to Ann where you there use the U.N. to support Israel's legitimacy. But now that the U.N. set the pre-67 line as Israel's border, I don't see Israel rushing to comply. Nor in so many other ways comply with international views: including being a nuclear power, applying collective punishment, all the "targeted attacks" (with all the oops, accidental, civilian deaths), gerrymandered wall building, destruction of civilian infrastructure, refusal to satisfactorily settle the "return", question, the Jeruselum question, refusal to talk to anybody but those who are YOUR chosen "partners for peace", and so forth. Like you, like its opposition, Israel has only cozied up to the UN when its works to its advantage. Meanwhile you have all brought endless calamity to the world it represents. Acknowledging the Arab pre-'67 world, why not NOW take the Saudi plan seriously?

to Mr. Bradley's quiz and it did not roll the blog. Absolutely 110% support for the man and he either buries it or keeps it and says it is his own. This is disrespect. Please ask him to post the best responses because I think I won the quiz.

(1) Israel- and Jew-hatred are world staples; that won't change quickly. (2) Hezzbolah, a terrorist org., avowed to destroy a sovereign nation, armed and dug in over a decade, on 7/12 rocketed a civilian town as diversion for crossing an unambiguous U.N.-identified permanent border to murder and kidnap that sovereign nation's soldiers, and thence began rocketing civilian targets. It's war.(3)Any nation (but Israel) would be expected to war to defend itself.(4)War is brutal always. Read about any war. Israel is supposed to fight nonviolently. (5)The war on terror, primarily war against radical Islamism, is a real war, different from previous wars, but real war. Many Westerners don't yet know it or can't yet accept it. Most will come to. Many Talkbackers here are the foe in that war.(6)Israel, at Ground Zero in the War on Terror, fights in self-defense in Lebanon. (7)Counter-terrorism is not terrorism when civilians die in it. The enemy will conflate, equate, confuse and reverse the two.

Interesting idea. How old does a country have to be to have the right to exist? There are some countries younger than Israel out there (e.g., Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia), several that are barely older (Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, etc. etc.). And bunch of others that aren't that much older, in the sweep of history (Canada, Australia, the US, Mexico and every other country in Latin America since none of them got independence before the early 1800s). I'm guessing Ann's criterion isn't really age.

www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?e=C&f=13194&t=01&m=A06&aa=1 The politicians in Israel & USA underestimated the deep rooted social aspect of Hisbollah and calculated therefor wrongly that after hitting the mule (the Lebenese civilians) with a big stick he would let go of the sack (Nasrallah) - the opposite happened - people who had never dreamed of supporting Hiszbollah (who build even christian churches) became overnight now big fans of him If it is one thing Olmert achieved 100% is that he has made out of small Nasralla with limited audience a super-pop-star allover the Arabic & Muslims world = a few billion people more (who did not give a ratass before) are now brought up against Israel. In another country Olmert would ripe for the wall for state treason.

Laura and her ilk are apparently tiptoeing around this post. I was hoping that someone would engage you.

I totally agree. Stop Bush administration - and the world will have the chance to smile again...

Our children or our grandchildren will come to the conclusion that a strong Israel within it's UN sanctioned borders of 1948 next to a secure and prosperous Palestinian State with an Arab guarantee of respect for Israel's security is the the only solution to this conflict. Forget everything else.

less were killed by Israel in 1 month of war, than in the 911 bombing by those "holy" muslims, claiming to do God's work. This proves that Israel acted with great restraint. You cry & moan about Quana. More civilians are killed with 1 suicide bomb in a bus or restaurant. And Israel has been experienced many suicide bombs. In Lebanon, Hizbollah suicide bombed the American Embassy causing 300 deaths - with 1 bomb!! So you worshippers of death...don't talk to me about the cruel Israelis. Israel will defend itself vigorously if attacked, but unlike you, Israel does not delight in death. Unlike the Palestinians who danced & celebrated upon hearing of the 911 bombing

May I ask this question? I just would like to know, if you mean just pack up and go back to Egypt? Or may be back to Germany, Poland, Maroco...... That would be most appreciated, I bet. This is just sad and really silly. I am reading all these responds and feeling that even people outside of this conflict cannot think reasonable, how can the ones who are directly involved? And your name is??????

blame the zionists, i say.

So Mr. Tal does not have to look far...

why so few jews die in this plague? surely not because they don't eat untreaded meat, or because they bathe regulary, and clean their house every week...no it must be because they themselves poisoned the well. We have heard it before, in different ways... but always the same lies. this is another form of the famous blood libel...

Any opinion as to why Arabs refused the 1967 borders back in 1967?

"I do not believe Israel has "the right to exist." It is only 60 years old." Do you also believe that the Arab countries created last century also do not have the right to exist? Sucks for you that the UN recognizes Israel as a sovereign nation, huh?

"The people of the US should learn the history." The people of the US know exactly who it is who celebrates death and passes out candy when innocents are murdered. The people in the US have seen the photos and video footage of those Hezbollah terrorists using mosques and civilians as propaganda shields. The people in the US know that while Israel built bomb shelters to protect its most precious -- its citizens -- Hezbollah built shelters to protect terrorists.

"You won`t be back in Lebanon any time soon." I believe Israeli soldiers are there as I type.

"Who does Israel have to make peace with?" Or, perhaps more appropriately: 'Who does Israel have to make peace with on its own terms?' Nascent Israel got off to a rough start in 1948, you'll rememember. The Israelis dispossessed 85% (805,000 people) of the then native population from well over 500 towns and villages, (not including the West Bank, of course.) In that same year, in order to help expedite the depopulation process, Israeli forces conducted numerous massacres, as well. With this kind of a history, is it any wonder that Israel has a problem finding peace partners with whom it can deal easily! You are lying in the a bed you have made.

It should be obvious to even the blind that Israel has NOT won the war you claim earned it the "occupied land fair and square". That "war" now is seen as merely one battle in a continuing far bloody war. The new generation enemy your attitude and policies have created (Hesbellah and other insurgents) has learned (much from Igrun and Stern) and now poses Israel a permanent and far more serious threat. By its collective punishment reaction, it has undermined not only the valid moral claim of Israel to exist, but has undermined much of the historical justification based on Nazi brutality and first resort to collective punishment: in the world's eyes, Israel transformed from the victim to victimizer role. Of this you are happy and proud and feel more secure?

"palestinians refugees should come back (home)" Israel will never allow the chaos of integrating millions of hostile Arabs into their society. It's too bad that the Arab world has allowed them to rot in refugee camps in Arab countries rather than using them as pawns in their insane hatred of Israel. If you truly care for these refugees, write to the Arab League and demand these poor people become integrated in their host societies.

Sure they do, or else they would condemn and imprison those who murder Israeli civilians.

Mr. Avi Shlaim is a right that, "A war on terror cannot be won by a democratically elected government acting like a terrorist organization". Instead of fighting with Hezbollah, cowardly bombing civilians in the Lebanon towns. Instead of arresting terrorist in Palestine occupied territory, bombing by planes or helicopters the cars with terrorist in Palestine town streets, irrespectively of innocent civilian casualties. Isn?t it terrorist acts, and war crimes by any definition?

The father tells his child; My son I will bring back Amine Gemayel My son I will bring back Aoun My son I will get GeaGea out My son I will have Joumblat on the proper side My son I will take care of Hariri My son I will take care of the Syrians My son what will you do? Oh father ...like I told you few years back I will destroy all the bridges I will destroy the infrastructure I will prove the words "Thou shall do war" I will put fear in their hearts I will put and end to Hezbullah ...So my son you wanted 5 days, then 10 days, then 15 days, then 20 days, then 33 days what the hell happened. The XBox simulation did not work. Now I have a billion that hate me

Free speech is a wonderful thing. It allows a person like Nabil from France to make up stories. He is stating information about a friend who was told by another person. WOW!! Let us say it is true. Well the same goes to the children of Israel who are taught to hate arab from day one and with evidence showing jewish girls writing messages to the kids in Lebanon on bomb shells. Mr. Nabil, I recommend you educate yourself about the crisis in the middle east and not say things that stupid with no basis for any truth.

Maybe that is bigger than "Jewish guilt"? Maybe its the Jewish mothers that are at fault for all misfortunes? Maybe just Settler Mothers. Yes, you can hate me now. Does your mother know that you do? See how ridiculous this topic is???

Mr. Avi Shlaim is a right that, "A war on terror cannot be won by a democratically elected government acting like a terrorist organization". Instead of fighting with Hezbollah, cowardly bombing civilians in the Lebanon towns. Instead of arresting terrorist in Palestine occupied territory, bombing the cars with them in Palestine town streets, irrespectively of innocent civilian casualties. Isn?t it cowardly terrorist acts, and war crimes by any definition?

You'd make me laugh if the situation weren't so serious. Why should Israel return to pre-1967 borders? She won the land she allegedly "occupies" fairly and squarely after having been attacked by Arab countries. Why should Israel give ANYTHING back, except to appease the killers, suicide bombers, and terrorists who are trying to destroy the entire country of Israel?

When will ANY Islamic country become a democracy and give equal rights to all people, regardless of race, religion, or gender? NEVER. Islam is incompatible with democracy, and it is sickening to hear Muslim extremists use the word "democracy" and "freedom" in the same paragraph wherein they express their distorted view of Islam.

Memri just translates speeches, sermons, etc. in the Muslim world. If what memri publishes is ugly, the blame is not on memri but on the people who say the things memri translates.

I hope that more and more Americans will have the courage to stand up for themselves now, and demand that no more money and weapons be donated to Israel. We are hated and targeted around the world because of our support of Israel. I do not believe Israel has "the right to exist." It is only 60 years old. "In the Bible it says..." is not an argument that convinces me. Stand up, Americans, and decide what your money is used for. Do not be afraid of accusations of racism!!

Articles and comments such as yours about Schlaims' article have the effect on me to show even more clearly that Schlaim - whose article I did not read - is probably right, so stupid are the arguments against it and against him and so blatant is the "mauvaise foi" that inspires your article... It is really not the right way to throw doubts one some one else's position: you rather make publicity for it !

How can I contact Shaul Daniel to contribute to his non-profit organziation. thanks Batya

in ur e-mail u said " accept it like Egypt and Jordan " what's after accepting it ?????? there r Egyptian prisoners in ur prison till now !! since 1973 if not before that date !! we know nothing about them we don't know wether they r alive or dead!! evey now and then ur troops kill Egyptian soldiers and civilians on the border of Rafah !! by the way the international media methion nothing about what happens on the Rafah border!! so what did we gain of accepting it???! u also want to destroy the arab nation and build " THE GREAT ISRAEL " extending from the NILE to ALFORAT river in IRAQ , u don't say that in the media but be sure that we know all ur plans !! u also said "we didn't kidnap anyone!!" and this is soo funny because u've already kidnapped 10000 palestinians and hundrends of arabs , u also kidnapped 6 civilians during this war in Lebanon claiming they were from HIZBOLLAH , stop acting soo innocent because u r the main source of terrorism in the world !!

Laura, first, I asked you do you feel more secure not. I'd appreciate an answer. Second, while much of what you say is factually true, it's understandably framed from an Israeli vantage. Palestinians have their own long and excruciating list of wounds they've suffered at Israel's hands...you don't mention one of these. You oversimplify the failure of the Clinton peace effort. The blame there was shared. Arafat didn't "walk away", and nothing satisfactory was offered as regards the "return", as one fact and one example. As to my being a protected Jew out of Israel, the other side of that line of reasoning is that Israel is acting as a JEWISH STATE, in my name, and I have no electoral say. Finally, the civilian casualty ratio not only in Lebanon but recently in Gaza and the overall ratio tells much about which side has experienced the most suffering. And -- back to my first question -- is Israel safer for all this? Please answer honestly.

The important part of my posting was part 1) AND YOU IGNORED IT.Unbelievable! It was about your question: "Who does Israel have to make peace with?". You ignored that part and instead you want to open a useless discussion about the credibility of MEMRI. I said: "one has to pay attention" about MEMRI. Not more and not less. So please let's come back to the question about the peace partner for israel. It is typical for those who refuse peace to always hide behind the claim "we want peace but the others bad guys have refused our preconditions", preconditions which mostly are amont others accept our settlements in the occupied territories, accept the eternal right of every single jew from all over the wall to expell every palestinian at every time and at every place whitin the so called "land of israel".(if you don't believe try to read from time to time what the settlers and their supporters write hier: http:www.israelnationalnews.com) Again: Israel can currently have peace. Now.

"Who knew Haifa was a "military post" I thought it was one of Israel`s largest cities." Then I guess you got it wrong Big Apple boy. I suppose that 1) the railway running out of Haifa goes in the direction of Tel Aviv only and not all the way up to the Lebanese borders; that 2) there is no military airport on the East side of it; that, 3) The Haifa Military Academy is located in, say, Eilat; and so on... Go visit Haifa dude. It's a beautiful city. Check it out before you claim it is devoid of military posts. True, CNN might not show them to you, but seriously: visit it someday.

Avraham Tal should be reminded of the Jewish aphorism (Pirkey Avot)- "Istra be'legina Kish Kish" which, translated from Arameic means- an empty barrel makes a lot of noise!. In a misleading article presumptuously titeled 'Anatomy of hating Israel' This author takes Avi Shlaim to task for verbelising the concerns voiced by many regarding the wisdom of retaliating for an unprovoked hizballah border attack by engaging in a wholesale destruction of Lebanon. Shalaim neither expressed 'hate for Israel' nor engaged in any polemics which can be construed as such. Moreover Tal has failed to exhibit any 'anatomy' of hate. He is engaged in empty sloganism and in fomenting hatred towards academics who without question can teach him a thing or two.

First leader of Hizbullah: We don't fight so that you will offer us something. We fight to eliminate you. Admadinejad: Israel must be wiped off the map. Great basis for negotiations.

Mr. Tal, Enough of those old tricks. Each time, Israeli brutality is exposed, you unleash your other types of guns: those that blackmail and silence. If you are truly concerned about Israel, and I believe you are, take a look at the pictures coming out of Lebanon, the evil destruction caused by your IDF. That is only an "anatomy of hate", it is hate incarnate

I asked:"Who does Israel have to make peace with?" Your answer: Mahmud Abbas AND the PLO AND the 70% of Pals who wants peace Well those 70% have got to demonstrate that they can control the 30% who are lobbing kassam rockets at Sderot and Ashkelon, kidnapping and murdering Jews both civilian and military, and sending people into markets, pizza parlours and buses with bombs strapped to them. Another confidence-instilling measure might be not to celebrate tragedies that are the work of lunatic murderers like 9/11.

Sandra, you quoted someone as saying "the stories selected by Memri for translation follow a familiar pattern: either they reflect badly on the character of Arabs or they in some way further the political agenda of Israel." There's an easy remedy if MEMRI is creating a slanted picture. Someone with the language skills can set up a web site with all the speeches and newspaper articles where Ahmadinejad and the Arabs talk about their desire to recognise Israel, their respect for Jews, Christians, Hindus, and Muslim sects other than their own, and their genuine hope that all nations may live in peace and security. I'm not going to hold my breath.

Whould the sender be a real Chaim, he couldn't have non-Jewish last name Arsolof. That FAKE SENDER (Islamofascist) probably met once the real Last Name 'Arlosoroff' and destorted it to 'Arsolof'. No way, Islamist: People of the USA, CANADA, and EUROPE continue to rely upon the JEWISH SRATE of ISRAEL. Together we stand!

You brilliantly articulated what i so often feel reading Haaretz talkbacks. After a short time, such accusations mean nothing and can easily be dismissed by the person against whom they are made.

"Even if everything you say is 100% true" !! Check it out for yourself! It is so easy to criticize Israel from the comfort of Georgia, or Montreal, and in ignorance of the facts. Israel is occupying two pieces of land acquired in the Six Day War - the Golan Heights and the West Bank. Israel has no obligation to return the Golan to Syria in the absence of an agreed upon border -- that is the UN's accepted buffer zone as long as Syria refuses to recognise Israel's right to exist. Would Syria give up being a client of Ahmadinejad in order to make peace with Israel? I don't know, but it sounds potentially suicidal for Israel. As for the West Bank, Israel had intended to turn much of it over to the Palestinians beginning this fall but no Israeli in their right mind would agree to this now. On the issue of Jerusalem, Mike, Ehud Barak offered Arafat a deal that would involve partitioning Jerusalem but Arafat walked away from the negotiating table and started Intifada 2.

In response to Mr. confused, There will be no wars and no conflicts should all of us be as confused as you are. My hat off to you sir or madam. Mark

Yes, he is a great academic. Academic - that is, teaches, does not do. I read the Iron Wall and was impressed. Mr. Shlaim's slant (and, oh yes, it is quite a slant, and keep that in mind, as he writes very well) is convincing. Unfortunately, he downplays both Israeli efforts at peace and the consistent opposition to peace contained within the combined Arab world. He would like us to believe that we would all be happy, kumbaya, if Zionism would disappear. Sure - as dhimma. Avi's admirers have fallen prey to an old logical (hats off to Mike) mistake - they believe his propositions to be true simply because they have understood them. And Avi - do you ride the tube? Take care - Imperial England appears to be as culpable as Zionist Israel.

I have nothing against Judaism; I have nothing again Jews: However, I do have a great deal against the supporters and perpetrators of a regime that is injust. Therefore, I oppose Israel, and I oppose all those in diaspora who support the state of Israel. Is that hate? I suppose so. What is ethically or morally wrong with that?

Mike, you logical kind of guy, Israel and Jews without wax in their ears are and have been listening to the voices ranged against and about Israel and its policies. The loudest voices call for the destruction of Israel and the death of the sons of pigs and monkeys (sounds like they mean you, Mike, as a self proclaimed Jew). The softest voices just wish that y'all would just go away. Human sensitivities and universal morality? Using whose scale? The Hutus? The suicide murderers? As if there was some singular scale with which we could measure actions. Sorry, it is the lowest common denominator at work - and the Hutus set that bar. Go eat some peanuts with the former farmer.

1) You asked:"Who does Israel have to make peace with?" Answer: Mahmud Abbas AND the PLO AND the 70% of Pals who wants peace (see hier http://www.fmep.org/analysis/articles/briefing_nusseibeh_ayalon.html) Why do israel refuse even to discuss the Saudi offer of full peace, recognition, diplomatic ties in exchange of all 1967 captured territories? Why do israel ignore the geneva initiative? Why do israel grab pals land by building settlements? Israel can currently have peace and security to a low cost if it only wanted to renounce the silly dream of Eretz Israel!!! 2) About www.memri.org one has at least to pay attention. You can find hier Praise and Criticism about MEMRI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute Brian Whitaker (ME editor for Guardian newspaper)wrote: "the stories selected by Memri for translation follow a familiar pattern: either they reflect badly on the character of Arabs or they in some way further the political agenda of Israel."

What a crying shame . so many good young people killed over what? How did it come to this? The Irgun & Stern Gangs taught the arab world to run. But now they no longer do so. They stay, they fight back. The zionist tactic of inciting fear no longer has any meaning.It can now only bring death to all sides. The people of the US should learn the history. Perhaps then they will no longer suppoert an extremely biased situation. What would Israel do then? Make peace & become a truly democratic nation for all regardless of race & religion? Imagine.

Baalaha Writes: "We will fire our rockets .... We are an unstoppable force.... We could also fire rockets in front and behind a group of Israili troops .... We have many ideas ..." Did HEZBOLLAH replace Hassan NASSRALAHA by Hassan BAALAHA?

According to Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, out of the the 160 total Israeli casualties during the war against Hezbollah, 43 have been civilians. According to Reuters, during the same period there were 1,165 Lebanese casualties - 1,130 of which were civilians. Frantz, the numbers you so quickly - and ignorantly - dismissed are much closer to the truth than you'd like to accept. Of those that Hezbollah has been responsible for killing, more than 70% have been military. On the other side, 96% percent of Lebanese casualties have been civilians.

before everyone starts ranting about 'maintstream British academic anti-semitism or anti-israeli' note that they are usually not academics specialising in the Middle East. Avi Shlaim is, and a great write on Israel to boot. Read his book 'The Iron Wall.' It is not anti-Israeli in any philosophical sense, it simply notes some of the mistakes (and successes) of Israeli security policy. Avi Shlaim knows what he's talking about.

Laura, Even if everything you say is 100% true, as a result of Israel's massive military responses in both Gaza and Lebanon -- all the loss of civilian life, all the children, all the infrastructure -- is Israel now more secure? If the answer is no, then Israel, like the U.S. in Iraq need to do a radical rethink of our situations. One possible solution for Israel is that they unequivocally return to the U.N. set pre-67 lines and then -- just as we're getting now in Lebanon -- create a permanent buffer zone, crossing both sides of the lines everywhere where Israel and Palestinians and others touch and establish it as an internationally military protected zone, including the internationalization of the city of Jerusalem.

Who wants to live in peace with Israel, - lives (Egypt, Jordan). Who doesn't want to live in peace with Israel, - relies on HEZBOLLAH (Lebanon, Syria , Iran), or on HAMAS (Palestinians).

1. The first aircraft hijacking was carried out by Israel in 1954 against a Syrian civilian airliner. 2. Grenades in cafes: first used by Zionists against Palestinians in Jerusalem on 17 March 1937. 3. Delayed-action, electrically timed mines in crowded marketplaces: first used by Zionists against Palestinians in Haifa on 6 July 1938. 4. Blowing up a ship with its civilian passengers still on board: first carried out by Zionists in Haifa on 25 November 1940. The Zionists did not hesitate to blow up their own people in protest at the British policy of restricting Jewish immigration to Palestine. The ship, Patria, was carrying 1,700 Jewish immigrants. 5. Assassination of government officials: first carried out by the Zionists against the British in Cairo, when on 6 November 1944 Lord Moyne was assassinated by the Stern Gang. Yitzhak Shamir, a member of the Irgun and later leader of the Stern Gang and Israeli prime minister, was behind the plan.

Answer to your Q: i would analyse the situation, REALLY ask myself wheter the military answer was the best one, then even if i answer yes i'd set a time for diplomacy, set a deadline, i'd make an offer to my ennemy, i'd ask my friends all over the world (us, germany, uk, india, egypt...) to help in finding a peacefull solution. The military option would be consedered at the end of that process, if there's no positiv result. If i was israel i would not annect the golan-H, nor the shebaa farms, nor east-jerusalem, nor would i refuse to talk to my enemies. If i was israel i'd say to the international community (UN, EU, US, China, Russian federation, Arab League...): from the day you give me a guarantee for my security i'd give all territories i captured in 1967 (east-jerusalem, gaza, WB, Golan-H, Shabaa farms) and i will free all palestinian, lebanese and other arab presoners from my prisons. I'd seriously consider and discuss the saudi peace plan or the geneva peace initiative.

Enough reduction of honest feeling and viewpoint to personal and instrumental motives. Whether Jewish or Gentile, what is going on in the Middle East, including Israel's part in it, violates to the point of shock human sensitivities and universal morality. As an American Jew I have very serious problems with both U.S. and Israeli policy and actions. That doesn't make me either "anti-American" or a "self-hating Jew" or somebody who wants to "assimilate to the Gentile world". Those of us who opposed the Iraqi unilateral action from its start are now being proven right by facts on the ground. In Israel's own interest, Israelis and Jews would do well to listen to or at least take very seriously and respectfully the criticism aimed at its policies and actions.

Hizbullah has slaughtered American and French UN peacekeepers in Lebanon. It has hijacked non-Israeli airplanes and killed an American marine on one of them. It shot an elderly wheelchair bound American on the Achille Lauro cruise ship it hijacked. (Why him, among the thousands of passengers? Maybe because he was a Jew). Listen to what Nasrallah and his Iranian patron Admadinejad say. You can read translations of their televised speeches on www.memri.org or watch videoclips with translations. The first leader of Hizbullah said something like "We don't fight you so you wlll offer us something. We fight you to eliminate you." Nor is Hamas interested in a 2-state solution. Who does Israel have to make peace with?

Let's see now, before Israel fired a single shot, what happened? 1. Diversionary Katyusha shelling of Israelis injures 10 civilians 2. Cross-border raid of 100 Hizbullah men kills 8 Israel soldiers and kidnaps 2. That's not an attack? What was your 'cassus belli' in Iraq, by comparison. Oh, and by the way, Israeli troops are still in Lebanon.

It is irrelevant whether someone is an intellectual. Robespierre was an intellectual. He was also a mass murderer and self-proclaimed terrorist, and reaped exactly that which he sowed. Avi Shlaim may be an intellectual, but his use of false arguments and outright lies is well known and documented even by so-called 'post-Zionist historians'. It should be expected that such a person generates opposition. You yourself respond to others with hate and vitreol, and for what reason? Because they do not use the same doctored sources and false quotes from fraudelent monographs that you do.

Every time we turn on our TV's and see the way Arabs 'resist' the Americans in Iraq by murdering their own women and children, we roll our eyes and say ,"They are at it again". The Arab world is backward, primitive, barbarous, and entirely incapable of self-criticism. Congratulations, Africa is already ahead in the race. Imagine what will happen when the oil runs out : "De l'avion a 'ane."

The lesson learned is that Isral can be destroyed by first firing rockets and missiles non stop into it until it is destroyed and then sending troops in to finish it off. Thus, no need for anything complicated or fancy since it won't be able to survive missiles raining down on it. This was first learned from the Saddam and the Gulf War and now it's been proven true again with Nasrallah's Hizbollah in Lebanon. The only difference is that we learn for next time to use accurate pin point target rockets and missiles. Who can really stop us as we get better and better at doing this? America the weak?

The more Israel gets blamed. The crimes comitted in the Arab world are unspeakable, starting with brutal massacres of innocents in Iraq by both Shi'ites and Sunnis (but not Kurds). And are we so naieve to think Lebanon is one entity and Iraq is another? There is an umbilical cord that ties together radical Shi'ites like Nasrallah and Muqtada al Sadr. The killing sprees committed by one are considered a victory for the other.

Mr. Avi Shlaim had taken the high moral ground when he outlined the errors of Israel's political and military leadership, on the other hand Mr. Avraham Tal had decided to reach rock bottom and start digging.

Avi Shlaim's article echoes the views of today's editorial in this very paper. He is dissecting Israel's massive failure in its military operation. Israel should get used to handling criticism before labeling it inhuman, unsympathetic or one-sided.

Avi Shlaim is an exceptional intellectual, who could forsee the future,the amazing thing is that Israeli and some Israeli inellectuals hate the present day facts, they live in a dream but they fail to realise the international arena has changed ,also the middle east. It is time to start thinking of being good to your neibghours to the Palestinianis and not to think everything could be solved by force and destroying your neighbours country, otherwise Israel is doomed if it fails to change its attitude and thinking which I believe is self destructive and bring nothing more than more hatred.

I have read most of Avi Shlaim's work. He is an eminent scholar. His books "Collusion across the Jordan" and "The Iron Wall" are classics on the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians/Arab world. You're comments are disgusting. Instead of trying to add to a debate you engage in evil slander. I cannot understand why Haaretz's moderator allows such base insults.

Laura, I've been reading your posts and despite of all your efforts to justify Israel behavior, one simple truth remains: The comments of the Israelis concerning pro-wright articles in this newspaper such as- "Bomb them all/ Let's carpet bomb Lebanon/ The population should pay the price, etc..."- I was stunt...Never knew Israelis were so full of hatred themselves because all you ear from them is how much arab are full of hatred!!! But to actually spread justification for the killing of children and women staggers my comprehension... I also see that most of the world agrees to say that Israel's behaviour towards the Palestinian people is the root cause of all problems in the ME. Many will justify that behavior by saying " Arabs want the destruction of Israel, they are savage, they bomb innocents..." But palestinians and Hezbollah are very different from Al-Quaida: They don't slauther people all over the world, just Israelis...but why? Maybe because they are the victims of Israel?

Israel is a democracy however not in the real sense, it's what is being increasingly understood as a terrorist democracy. There are no comparisons for it and therefore it remains elusive and diffident to any sort of international control. However we really can't keep it up for much longer, are enemies are catching up fast.

I am not sure how one can possibly enter into a Peace Aggreement with a neighbour/s who publicly state that they have only one true aim and that is the total destruction of the state of Israel. Perhaps you have some insight that has escaped those who have been seeking a middle east peace resolution for years. It would however seem that when siding with one by blaming the other and not recognising the need for security on both sides you exclude yourself from the role of mediator and or peacemaker.However,should either side wish you to bang their drum I am sure you will make yourself available. A Peace maker doesn't take sides, it seeks resolutions, real, practical, and workable. Not glib flippant answers to a very serious global problem.

Can someone explain how israel is bad for killing terrorists who threaten their daily life and ACCIDENTALLY killing civilians in the prcess (war is war, which wasnt started by sirael by the way), yet you have nothing bad to say about hezzbulah who STARTED the war AND who aimed OVER THREE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED ROCKETS AT CIVILAINS!!!! How is that even or remotely fair treatment??

If Israel is a terrorist state for targeting 'innocents' as you say then what of the catholic church who for well over 1000 years, unleashed vengeance and destruction on much of Continental America and Europe for the sake of satisfying lust for power and demonstrating contempt for non Christians. They were terrorists par excellence?

It has become evident to the Israelis-American forces on the ground that they are not fighting Arabs. A major misconception has to be clarified; Hezbollah organization and its soldiers are Lebanese not Arabs. In 2000 Hezbollah won the first ever war against the occupation, a repeat of their victory is bound to happen, if their fighting so far is any indication.

Equating Israel with terrorist organizations and their sponsors is preposterous! The democratically elected government of Israel has an obligation to protect it's citicens from terrorist attacks. The terrorists deliberately target civilians, Israel does not! The terrorists hide among civilians, deliberately causing civilian casualties on "their" side as well. The resulting suffering is used in their propaganda, which most of the media and the public opinion buy into only too easily. There is a huge moral gap between the terrorists and the democratically elected government of Israel. You do not negotiate with terrorists. The democracies of the world must never sink to such depths. Only a firm stand against terrorism will save the world from eternal blackmail from these ruthless thugs. It is disgusting to see leftie liberals criticizing Israel's actions from the safety og their own comfortable neighborhoods.

How naive you are, Mr. Dunlop. Arabs of GAZA received recently the whole GAZA region. What followed? - Everithing that remained of former Jewish settlements was destroyed (and nothing created). New tunnels were digged. Quassam rockets were launched. The Israely solg=dier was kidnapped. Do you know, Mr. Dunlop, that HAMAS, ISLAMIC JIHAD, (and other terrorist groups) insist (and always insisted) on the complete destruction of Israel? Before giving advice to Israel, please study the history. ARAFAT's position in the past (before OSLO talks) didn't differ from the current attitude of HAMAS. ARAFAT could accept support your suggestion: - Israel should give Arabs now everything, what Mr. Dunlop suggest; - And then ... Arabs would destruct weakened Israel by terror. Come on, Mr. Dunlop, Israelis are not so silly.

The current conflict was not a result of the arrest of the 2 Israeli soldiers. This was war had been in planning since May of 2000. This invasion was complicated by our miscalculation in Iraq. The Israelis true plan had been for the American forces to occupy Iraq, and only then for its forces to march in Lebanon and Syria, and completed surround its main objective Iran. Tel Aviv miscalculated and here we are.

'In Shlaim's distorted worldview, the Israeli government operates as a terror organization, whereas Hezbollah is a legitimate Islamic resistance movement.' Omit 'in Shlaim's distorted worldview.' Then the author of this piece and I will be in accord. The fact is that all one has to do is count and classify the corpses over the past six years. It becomes clear which organization is practicing indiscriminant terror.

"One does not always have to agree with the viewpoints of the Israeli government, but why should we know better than the politicians how they should do their job?" Simple answer: In a so-called democracy, the politicians are elected to carry out the will of the people whom the former. If, in the minds of significant numbers, the will of the people is not being performed, then the people have a right to remind the politicians "how to do their job."

'Apparently the proper response to unprovoked aggression is negotiating over the aggressors' conditions. ' This occurs in a discussion of the events of 12 July. However, the reference seems to be to the shenanigans that went on over the ceasefire. Get off it. You've been baiting Hezbollah for years and Hezbollah's been baiting you. You were not 'victims of an unprovoked attack.' You just got hurt, and in a fit of petulant rage, went on a murderous rampage, killing upwards of a thousand innocent men, women, and children. At least Hezbollah taught you the lesson you so richly deserved. You won't be back in Lebanon any time soon.

The Israels are self-obsessed and appear to think that in particular none-Israelis somehow owe them sympathy when their adventures turn into misadventures. If they could listen to something outside of themselves then they would perhaps hear cries of pain and anguish from others also in need of sympathy and support. Unfortunately this message will be lost - in all the noise and the grief.

It is the usual tactical approach of terrorists: - Everything should be allowed to them: kidnapping, blackmailing, digging tunnels, killing civilians. - What about another party, here terrorists insist on observing the "international law". What about the recent events in Lebanon, the Hezbollah was not only in bushes and forests of that country, but in the Parliament and in the Government too. - So, LEBANON, should be responsible for consequences it met. If after the war LEBANON can separate with HEZBOLLAH, the new relations with Israel will be created. Now, please look at financial aspect of HEZBOLLAH activity. This terrorist group produces nothing. At the same time it obtained from 'somewhere' billions of $$$. What could be the source? - I think: Iran (the sponsor of terrorism)

Like clockwork, every so often the defenders of Israel trot out arguments whose essence is that anyone who critiques the Zionist narrative is one or more of the following: an anti-Semite, a terrorist, a terrorist sympathizer, an Arab, a loony leftist, or a self-hating Jew. Certainly some of those who critique the Zionist narrative fit these descriptions, but, outside of the Islamic world, I would hazard to guess that such elements are a small minority. But these articles aren't concerned with such distinctions. Their efforts is instead to smear any and all who question Israeli policies with the taint of Holocaust denial, pogroms, suicide bombs, honor killings, Islamic fundamentalism, appeasement, etc. As propaganda goes, it's a pretty clever tactic, but eventually it, like all other things, will outlive its utility.

"Israel is not a terrorist organization." Wrong. Israel is a "terrorist organization." By all the criteria that define the contemporary usage of the word 'terrorist,' Israel is most certainly a "terrorist organization." Israel kills often and indiscriminately civilians who in no way can be said to be legitimate military targets. Isn't that terrorism in a nutshell? What is the difference between a "terrorist" Arab who brings a civilian commercial jet down, and a "terrorist" IAF pilot who strafes a convoy of civilians fleeing for their lives? Israel is a terrorist state. Believe it!

Distorting history and facts is the speciality of fascism. Nothing new in the old-new historians.

u claim israle is a "terrorist state" for attacking civilains, eventhough more than half of the deals were hezzbulah terrorists firing at soldiers. You Then make no mention that although it largely failed, over 3,500 rockets were aimed purely at israeli civilians. Does that not figure into your equation of terrorism??? Why not?!?!

Rereading John Dower's _War Without Mercy_ in light of current criticism of Israel. Dower states that the US bomber 66 Japanese cities; 75% of the bombs were incendiaries; conservative military estimate of Japanese civilian deaths was 400,000, but most since place the number much higher. This was targeting of civilians, called "strategic bombing," in pursuit of "unconditional surrender," as agreed to by Churchill and Roosevelt in 1943 on the _Augusta_, three decades after the Hague Convention mentioned the idea of "proportionate response," 80 years after Sherman razed Atlanta, about 800 years after Tamerlane eradicated Baghdad. But Shlaim stays focused.

I find that it would be difficult to impossible logically for an army operating under the "international rules of combat" to defeat a sporadic terrorist group in a defensive situation on home turf and utilizing guerilla tactics. That being said, please note that black october helped wipe out "resistance" in Jordan for many years...can it be that only a heavy hand from an aggressor be the only option? Maybe. Can there be a diplomatic answer? that would involve compromise...and we all know what happens with any extremist or religiously motivated group - compromise is far from its mind or abilities. I know its not nice to say and definitely not popular - but maybe just a very heavy hand is the way to achieve the practical results

Sorry all Shlaim is right. The moral decline of Israel barbarous attacks on civilians is evident to all.Israel should return to the 1967 borders {UN 242}, hand over all the illegal settlements to the Palestinians as compensation for the crimes committed against them. Allow a return of Palestinian refugees driven off their land by Irgun ,Hagannah and others {UN 194}.Return the Golan and Sheba farms.Then peace can begin.Its greed for others land, or peace. Israelis must choose

Hezbollah gets critism for acting as a guerilla force does. Read Mao's book on this topic. Are you expecting them to march onto an open field and wait for the Isreali cluster bombs? The true question is how the regular army reacts facing guerilla. Sadly the usual reaction is collective punishment - as this war has shown again.

"The Iron Wall (Israel and the Arab world)" written by Avi Shlaim (2000) - among others. "Shlaim places Israel's political and military actions under an uncompromising lens." Praised for example by: Sunday Herald The New York Times Scotland of Sunday The Times The Guardian Observer

Ben Gurion said that and I guess it does not matter to the Haaretz bloggers, the pencil warriors.

It is nice to know that some Jews see brutal occupation, invasion and killing as a crime. Criticizing using terror tactics of Israel and illegal and brutal occupation are not against Israel. It is a time for Israel to stop hiding behind Holocaust and anti-semitism and become a part of the World. Israelis should stop blaming others for their own crimes.

In response to "Rosemary's Baby", I'll keep it short and to the point. Why doesn't Israel sign a comprehensive peace treaty with all of it's neighbors? Very simple, small demonic one. Their neighbors don't WANT peace; they want the demise of Israel. A treaty is, last time I looked, a two sided agreement. What's hard to understand about that?

No matter what so called 'historians' say, Israel has to be a legitimate state for the simple fact that we, the Europeans, so far have not found a way to deprogram our antisemitism sufficiently. At first I did not understand my Jewish friends when they told me antizionism is the same as antisemitism, but they are right. One does not always have to agree with the viewpoints of the Israeli government, but why should we know better than the politicians how they slould do their job? There are no easy solutions to this problem. Those 'historians', who question the right of Israel to excist, turn a blind eye to a large part of history.

Because we feel the same way about the French. That said, I just don't remember seeing the US fire any missiles at your country. In fact I don't recall seeing Israel fire any missiles at your country either. I would stick with the Arab hate argument, it has a much clearer connection with reality.

israel, this land won't never works this way. this state should never have been created as it was. finally all want a piece of land (especially for its own home after all) 1 so israel should destroy itself 2 palestinians refugees should come back (home) 3 do like you want (please do not ask the rest of the world) to build new kind of countries, maybe not by geographic limits but by the feeling of beeing of one nation or an other. All will belong to its own state even if the neighberhood is from an other one (like in the middle age, to live under the law of ...). Ok it's maybe stupid, but look at yourself (all), where you are...in the deep You are clever, in an old land, try something RADICAL else it will never NEVER work. It would be nice to forget you. You are boring me.

Six years ago Israel walked out of Lebanon, and received a UN blessing that it occupied not a single millimeter of Lebanese territory. Since then, the so-called resistance of Hizballah has made repeated cross-border attacks on Israeli territory, killing and kidnapping Israeli citizens. One year ago, the UN came up with resolution 1559, which called for the disarmament of Hizballah. One month ago, Hizballah again, attacked Israel, firing missiles at its towns, and killing and kidnapping more citizens. Yes, I know looking in the mirror is hard, but its time someone called you to task. Israel didn't attack without reason.

I'm not sure what your maths capabilities are, but IDF security sources say between 500-1000 Hizbullah have been killed. You might not believe this number but its way more accurate then any arab stats. The Lebanese say 754 killed (their latest number). I know that only Hizbullah were targeted because I know people in the airforce and I have read the testimonials and know IDF procedure. Qana was a setup job using bodies from the graveyard (search on google to get all the info.). Its simple and obvious for anyone with an open mind. Yes Israel does make mistakes and civilians are killed, but its a war, Israel was attacked, almost exclusively to kill its civilians. If Israel was an arab country over 10000 lebanese civilians would have died by now (e.g. Syria & Irbid - etc.). Sorry that the facts don't support your theories!

Let's see, in the past 20 years, Israel did the following: Made peace with Jordan. Exited from Lebanon Exited from Gaza Elected a politcal party who's central platform was based on leaving the majority of the West Bank. By comparison, let's see the Palestinains elected HAMAS, who's goal was the elimination of Israel and the Lebanese abdicated in favor of Hizballah, who's goal was the elimination of Israel. Iran elected Ahmadinejad, who's principal foreign comments focus on the eimination of Israel. At the OIC conference several years ago, former Malaysian Mohammed Mahathir received a standing ovation from the 53 Muslim heads of state when he used the welcoming ceremony to call for... none other than a war to eliminate Israel. Meanwhile, in a conversation with the press, the Egyptian FM, discussed the possability of going to war with Israel. The major stopping point? Not the peace treaty, but $$$.

Who knew Haifa was a "military post" I thought it was one of Israel's largest cities. Indeed, the numbers speak for themselves. 3,000+ missiles aimed at civilian targets for over a month.

TRUE STORY August 15, 2006 Yesterday, I met my old friend George who just arrived with his wife Sylvia to France. This is what they witnessed before leaving their village in the lebanese mountain: "On one evening, five cars arrived with several women and children running away from the war in South Lebanon. The women were asking for shelter and food. George and Sylvia thought of seeking the help of the mayor and the parish priest. Finally, they succeeded in giving them shelter partly in the church and partly in the town hall. They would come and visit them daily and talk to them. Sylvia became quite friendly with the women. - What is your name? - I am Um Hussein. - We don't see any of your husbands; where are they ? - They had to stay in the South. Only the woman can run away. - How many children do you have? - I have twelve children. I gave five to the Hezbollah and kept seven with me. The Hezbollah takes them between the ages of 8 to 14. They don't take them if they are 18 years of age or more". End of the Story. Because of its culture, the West is unable to understand fundamentalism. George and Sylvia want to give shelter to their two children; they are asking themselves if they should definitely leave Lebanon, the whole region, or even depart for another planet...

Civilians were warned, and targets were limited. But when fighting a guerrilla war where your enemy positions his forces amidst civilians makes it difficult to seperate them. Hizballah chose its strategy, and the Lebanese people bore its cost.

Are part and parcel of Nadim Shehadi's hate mongering. Total refusal to look in the Arab and Muslim mirror that revolves around the entitlement policy to violence. Urban guerrillas who plan and wage war amidst civilians are going to get them killed. This is no surprise, which is why it was considered against the laws of war in the Geneva Conventions. Sadly, the same comments posted by these authors is just a rerun of those used by their elders.

It has nothing to do with Israel's actions. Although reprimendable, Lebanon should have Hizb'allah disarmed according to 1559.. What did they do? Nothing. They don't care. Lebanon claims Israel has no respect for human lives or other country's territory, but if the Lebanese government does not respect it's own sovereignity, why should Israel do? And the fact that the UN collaborates with Hizb'allah, makes it even worse. And to Math's calculations: it doesn't matter. Israeli people don't want to be loved by collaborators of Hizb'allah - they just want to be left in peace! And this is something Arab leaders and Arab people cannot do, otherwise, how will they spend their money and time? Helping their own people? What a ridiculous idea, isn't it?

In this forum people often post ignorant and disgusting messages. However, yours is in a class quite its own. Clearly you know nothing about Professor Shlaim but ignorance does not stand in the way of dismissing in the most vulgar terms a fine scholar whose views you evidently don't agree with. Rather than this kind of cheap attack why don't you engage with the substance of this author's work - a considerable body of writing over many years that demonstrates real integrity. Or is such a dialogue completely beyond you?

Its nice the read this rebuttal of Shlaim but shouldn't it appear in the Tribune, where the Shalaim article appeared, rather than in Haaretz?

Kameel, Hizbullah did indeed offer a prisoner exchange. They committed an act of war, and engaged in an illegal activity by capturing soldiers to swap them. They've done this several times in the past. Nobody has any obligation to respond to such an act of war by giving anything in return to the aggressors except what Israel gave Lebanon.

fact is the world holds israel to a higher standard that hizbollah. thats because israel is a legitimate, first world state, UN member and signatory to various conventions, with a high GDP and top shelf military. hizbollah has none of this. Thus hizbollah killing 100 people is not equivalent in approbation to israel killing 100 - let alone 1000. Yes we expect more of israel, but that's not being anti-semitic, and certainly not "hating Israel".

I couldn't have said it better myself: The Israelis, say Saudi liberals, must learn from history and not be blinded by arrogance. ?Hong Kong was ceded to China after 150 years of colonial rule. The day came when apartheid was cast out of South Africa. India won its freedom after a heroic struggle and the Berlin Wall did come down,? said a Jeddah-based Saudi columnist. ?The Israelis have created their own apartheid. They have built a wall and made conditions for Palestinians and the Lebanese as bad or worse as any that existed under colonialism anywhere in the world. There is no way they can win. The occupation has to end.?

Wonderful idea - negotiate more and fight less. Well, maybe Israel should just cut to the chase. Bypass the Sheba Farms and go right to the heart of what Hizbullah wants with regard to Israel. They could agree on a date for Israel's destruction, and you never know, Hizbullah might even be willing to negotiate over the means!

unfortunately, this type is often found in the Diaspora, especially in Europe and esp. Eastern Europe. So, this writer is basically trying to ingratiate himself into legitimacy among British academic circles among whom, as we well know, anti-Semitic and anti-Israel bias is tres au courant. To put it very crudely, Avi Shlaim is so ambitious that he's trying to crawl up his British peers' collective arse even without lubricant.

the strategies of both the US and israel seem to be too evident to many people in order to rather fuel hate than peace. see: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,431774,00.html as a blueprint to a war against iran, israel not only calculated the death of its own soldiers as a fair price to gaining intelligence on military strategy, but also took the whole world as fools to believe that the kidnapping of 2 soldiers was the real reason for its strike, when in fact it was just the trigger.

And what do you want to bet Kofi Annan isn't going to declare Lebanon in violation of the Un Resolution? I think we he charges himself to be "seized" of "matters", what he really does is have some kind of seizure that renders his brain 100% insensate rather than its usual 98%.

Where did you get your facts? Not even Foxnews will come close to this. 90% killed were Hizbullah??? Which stone are you living under? You are making such a fool of yourself.

The point of the article is that writing about this conflict as if Hizbullah had nothing to do with it is a complete misrepresentation of the facts. Hizbullah are a Shiite militia front for Iran, and are facilitated by Syria who allow the free movement of Iranian arms through their territory into that little piece of Lebanon that the Lebanese government can't control. So to omit any mention of this is fantasy, not analysis and not legitimate opinion.

So the "responsible" and "moral" Hizbullah lobbed 4000 missiles into Israel just for fun? Ooooo, they didn't want to hurt any Israelis, nooooo! They don't target civilians, they just hide behind them! Gutless cowards.

Nabil, In the 1970s, Lebanese factions destroyed Lebanon before Israel even set foot in the south to stop the PLO from from waging war on Israel from Lebanese territory. You need to learn a little of your own history before you try to lay all your woes at Lebanon's feet. If Lebanon is genuinely interested in peace, why does your nation refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist?

If the IDF fails to know where Hizbullah are that doesn't mean they are hiding amongst the civilians. Stop usin this execuse. Collective punishment is a typical israeli policy...why bomb powerstations? bridges? airports? milk factories?

But a lot of people wish she could negociate a more and fight less.

But nowhere in this article does he explain why a response to the kidnapping of soldiers Regev and Goldwasser was tailored not to what it lay within the bounds of possibility to achieve, but to what would make an impression. So Shlaim may not be right. It's a theory and he needs to make a living. Why was Halutz not right? Why was Peretz not right? Why was Olmert not right?

We will fire our rockets in a wave of forward front assaults against Israili troops in south Libanon followed by waves of our warrior Hizbillah troops right behind and following on the wave of rocket attacks. We are an unstoppable force. We could also fire rockets in front and behind a group of Israili troops sandwiching them in and then having our troops surround them. The combination of using rockets and troops with pin point are creatively endless and doesn't cost us so much but the results are so deadly to the enemy. We have many ideas to use with cheap plentiful small rocket power.

How many rocket launchers were hidden in the suburbs of Beirut? Israel is to quick to bomb civilians. Israel is to quick to blame the other side for using human shields. Israel drops bombs on apartment buildings in Gaza to kill Palestinian leaders. Are these people hiding amongst civilians, using them as human shields, or are they simply going home to their families? When a suicide bomber bombs a bus with a soldier on it, was the soldier hiding amongst civilians, using them as human shields or was he simply trying to make his way home? Both sides bomb civilians. Both sides think their reasons are valid. Both sides are wrong. Both sides have crossed the border and kidnapped their opponents. I don't hate Israel, I hate hypocrisy. I can, however, understand why Arabs in the region hate Israel. Israel has, and continues to steal land, and now food, from their neighbours. When complaints are made, they are either ignored or met with brutality.

How many rocket launchers were hidden in the suburbs of Beirut? Israel is to quick to bomb civilians. Israel is to quick to blame the other side for using human shields. Israel drops bombs on apartment buildings in Gaza to kill Palestinian leaders. Are these people hiding amongst civilians, using them as human shields, or are they simply going home to their families? When a suicide bomber bombs a bus with a soldier on it, was the soldier hiding amongst civilians, using them as human shields or was he simply trying to make his way home? Both sides bomb civilians. Both sides think their reasons are valid. Both sides are wrong. Both sides have crossed the border and kidnapped their opponents. I don't hate Israel, I hate hypocrisy. I can, however, understand why Arabs in the region hate Israel. Israel has, and continues to steal land, and now food, from their neighbours. When complaints are made, they are either ignored or met with brutality.

How many rocket launchers were hidden in the suburbs of Beirut? Israel is to quick to bomb civilians. Israel is to quick to blame the other side for using human shields. Israel drops bombs on apartment buildings in Gaza to kill Palestinian leaders. Are these people hiding amongst civilians, using them as human shields, or are they simply going home to their families? When a suicide bomber bombs a bus with a soldier on it, was the soldier hiding amongst civilians, using them as human shields or was he simply trying to make his way home? Both sides bomb civilians. Both sides think their reasons are valid. Both sides are wrong. Both sides have crossed the border and kidnapped their opponents. I don't hate Israel, I hate hypocrisy. I can, however, understand why Arabs in the region hate Israel. Israel has, and continues to steal land, and now food, from their neighbours. When complaints are made, they are either ignored or met with brutality.

Israel is not perfect but in comparison to its neighbors it is morally and culturally light- years above. As for you haters, you resent, envy, dislike Jews especially when they are in some way strong. Perhaps each one of you individually needs a psychiatrist to help you understand why you need to be so resentful and hate- filled.

I cannot find the words to praise your posting. If a non-jew, you must be caring more about Jews and Israelis than they do, something I honestly may share with you. The way I read history and conclude its lessons and what could come as a result of all what is carried by Israel, makes me scared of the future, and fearful of the outcome of this injustice,displacement, disgrace, humiliation by this vicious and cruel enemy towards his occupied neighbors, whose lands he simply stole by gang-like actions. This chosen people do not want to live in peace with the fact that God cannot be biased to some special creature of his, out of so many others. PERIOD. When this is clear, Jews will be able to look in the mirror and see from a different angle.

I cannot find the words to praise your posting. If a non-jew, you must be caring more about Jews and Israelis than they do, something I honestly may share with you. The way I read history and conclude its lessons and what could come as a result of all what is carried by Israel, makes me scared of the future, and fearful of the outcome of this injustice,displacement, disgrace, humiliation by this vicious and cruel enemy towards his occupied neighbors, whose lands he simply stole by gang-like actions. This chosen people do not want to live in peace with the fact that God cannot be biased to some special creature of his, out of so many others. PERIOD. When this is clear, Jews will be able to look in the mirror and see from a different angle.

He grew up in Isarel,where he did his national service 1964-66. Now he is a professor of International realtions at Oxford. He is also a winner of political Studies Association's Prize.

for his honesty.

" But why are your readers blind to the fact that Hizbollah soldiers hid behind civillians and let them be killed?" Oh, and Israel had NO CHOICE but to kill civilians? Poor poor Israel! Forced to bomb civilians! Israel knows civilians and children are there - and they don't care. End of story. Stop crying crocodile tears for Lebanese civilians, we know Israel wasn't "forced" to bomb them, they did it by choice. Hezbollah and Israel are equally ruthless.

Shlaim is a perfect example of these new Israeli traitors who just like to re-write the History in the most vulgar and wrong way possible. Do they really believe what they say? I cannot avoid thinking that these kind of people are taking their revenge over Israel through these extremists views. Their hatred is equal to the one of a basic Hamas or Hezbollah guy. They use the same theories and who knows, maybe they will finish to deny the holocaust...Shame on these people who should not be permitted to be Israelies anymore. Anyway, if they were sticking to their views, they should abandon their citizenship and fast. No need of traitors!

I thank you for being brave, honest and frank. But in my opinion, Aipac, Presidents of the USA, and especially Mr Bush are the ones with bloods on their hands, Israeli blood and in a lesser degree Lebanese and Palestinian bloods where Israel's hands are tainted with it too. Those who covered up for the atrocities,gang style belligerance, arrogance-motivated moves,and shunning away from any negotiations because of ONE MAJOR FACTOR..GREED FOR MOR LAND GRABING, together with belitteling the ability of the other. Aipac is the distant uncle for that kid whose name is Israel, who spoiled him until he was drunk with power and drugged with conceit and overestimation of his capabilities. My mother( God bless her soul ) taught me when I was young to bless those who dare to confront me with truth though painful, rather than those who bullies me with what I love to hear about myself. Mom was wise, unlike all those in power in Israel and Aipac. Prof Shlaim book; the Iron wall is worth reading.

The writer of this article is absolutly correct. And I don't mean Avraham Tal. Avraham Tal shows a typical symptom of your political right. Denial of reality.

Everyone must remember, when information is gathered from many different sources, much of it may be distorted, but there is always a sliver of truth hidden in it. All must open their eyes and hearts and ask themselves "could it be". Most would answer yes, I guess it could. This does not neccissarily make it so, but it should plant a seed of doubt that would make one question everything, no matter who the information comes from. It is sad to see that justification for one horrror is instigated from the occurrence of another. When will common sense prevail? When will everyone see the light. If any parties to any of the fighting going on in the world today truly wanted reconcilliation with each other their effort would be towards dialague first and foremost. Not rhetoric and weapons. The children will always pay for the folly of the parents.

I feel deeply for any loss of life be ita Jew, Christian or Muslim. But why are your readers blind to the fact that Hizbollah soldiers hid behind civillians and let them be killed? Why did they hide their rockets in civillian houese in the first place? During the fighting reports of various TV channels interviewed civilians in Lebanon, but not a single Hizbollah fighter was to be seen. Where were they? Yesterday, when cease fire was declared, an Israeli soldier was interviewed in Lebanon he said "when I hear birds and no gun fire, I am happy" Compare this with Nasrallah "South Lebanon will be the grave yard of the Israeli soldiers" Let me add: it is easy to criticise, chastise and moralize from the safety of one's home. Think what you would do if you were attacked, hated and despised?

Thank you so much for directing us to Shlaim's article :) Maybe your next article can do us this type of service again. So, it's true that from the venom of the snake you can extract some medicinal value. Tal: venomous snake; Shlaim: value.

Thank you so much for directing us to Shlaim's article :) Maybe your next article can do us this type of service again. So, it's true that from the venom of the snake you can extract some medicinal value. Tal: venomous snake; Shlaim: value.

Too often we hear anti-Semitic, anti-Zionist slurs bandied about, to the extent where they sound like the paranoiac ramblings of a bigot. Even devout Jews aren't spared. There is little attempt on the part of the slanderers to engage with the arguments nor take responsibility for the state's actions. These are mainly right wingers whose underlying truth seems to be the racial supremacy of Jews over Arabs.

Only her neighbours actually hate Israel The rest of us just wish she could grow out of her teenage hormone stage and give peace a chance.

It's typical of your hatchet jobs that you don't provide your readers with a link to the actual article, for fear they will disagree with your character assassination of the author: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/08/04/opinion/edshlaim.php

Avraham Tal talks nonsense when he describes Avi Shlaim's article as "filled with hatred for the Jewish state". Shlaim's article is merely a dispassionate, truthful analysis of Israel's recent actions. It would seem that to Tal (and many other right-wing Israelis) Israel is somehow (uniquely among all nations)to be permanently held above all criticism no matter how many UN resolutions it stands in contempt of, no matter how much Palestinian land and water it steals, no matter how many democratically elected politicians it chooses to kidnap and no matter how many civilians it murders with impunity.

well this is all very amuzing. good article which states the facts, no wonder the anti-semites don't like it. 90% of the people israel killed were Hizbullah, many of the other were supports. Hizbullah mostly targets general citizens - period. The Lebanese gov. figures are completely made up. One week in the war they were saying 1000 dead, next day 850, next day 900, then 700. In one speech Leb. said 40 died in one shell, then admited only one. All arabs stats. are totally made up. The biggest joke of all is Hizbullah claiming victory - 600 dead and kicked out of the south - ha ha ha ha. Oh yes the other one "innocent Lebanese" 15,000 rockets in Lebanon, 2000 Hizbollah and they are in the government - Innocent - ha ha ha ha ha

In a typical Isareli tendency to well tailored distortion of facts Mr Tal is not accurate about the course of events: he mentions abduction of 2 soldiers with killing eight others as a matter of fact and together with mentioning the diversionary shelling...so on whem trying to prove that Israel should not negotiate in such a condition. He omits Nasrallah offer for exchange of prisoners, before starting the war. And what substantiates Prof. Shalaim's theory about negotiation, Mr Tal sarcastically wonders if under such brutal conditions, Israel should " negotiate over aggressors conditions". What Mr Tal forgets or wants readers to forget is that this is exactly Israel's mentality and stance in the conflict. So why do Israel want its arab neighbors to submit to its might and brutal aggression, all the time claiming maliciously that they should sit round the negotiation table. (par Israeli standard of course) No need to mention the immaculate portrait of Prof Shlaim whom I respect much

In a typical Isareli tendency to well tailored distortion of facts Mr Tal is not accurate about the course of events: he mentions abduction of 2 soldiers with killing eight others as a matter of fact and together with mentioning the diversionary shelling...so on whem trying to prove that Israel should not negotiate in such a condition. He omits Nasrallah offer for exchange of prisoners, before starting the war. And what substantiates Prof. Shalaim's theory about negotiation, Mr Tal sarcastically wonders if under such brutal conditions, Israel should " negotiate over aggressors conditions". What Mr Tal forgets or wants readers to forget is that this is exactly Israel's mentality and stance in the conflict. So why do Israel want its arab neighbors to submit to its might and brutal aggression, all the time claiming maliciously that they should sit round the negotiation table. (par Israeli standard of course) No need to mention the immaculate portrait of Prof Shlaim whom I respect much

You seem like a complete idiot. Is someone typing your posts for you as you drool next to the screen? You are an unhinged individual, with clear psychopathic tendencies, if they don't lock you up soon you may attempt joining the glorious IDF and getting the be-jesus kicked out of you by Hizballah. Now, wouldn't that be insane? None of the Israelis' reasons for this war were accomplished. None. Period. Oh, and before I forget, hahahahahha.

I'm confused: are you talking to Tal or to Shlaim?

well this is all very amuzing. good article which states the facts, no wonder the anti-semites don't like it. 90% of the people israel killed were Hizbullah, many of the other were supports. Hizbullah mostly targets eneral citizens - period. The Lebanese gov. figures are completely made up. One week in the war they were saying 1000 dead, next day 850, next day 900, then 700. In one speech Leb. said 40 died in one shell, then admited only one. All arabs stats. are totally made up. The biggest joke of all is Hizbullah claiming victory - 600 dead and kicked out of the south - ha ha ha ha. Oh yes the other one "innocent Lebanese" 15,000 rockets in Lebanon, 2000 Hizbollah and they are in the government - Innocent - ha ha ha ha ha

-for the consequences and the lack of peace. Despite the ceasefire agreement Hisbala has already started to push the envelope on disarmnamement,quite possibly leading to another war.Then the so called honest brokers are "shocked' when Israel's non fairweather friends ignore them.

Avi Shlaim wrote an article. Israel bombed to death some 800 civilians - many children - in Lebanon recently. Which represents the greater disregard for human life, the 'hatred'? The captured combatants could have been released through negotiation as has been happening since 1948. Tal's comment further perpetuates the existentialist myth, and there will never be peace until Israelis recognise the value of all human life and the suffering in their name. Are you a war people, Israel?

It is not hating Israel, it is hating the crimes, the pornographic evils Israel is committing in the name of Jewish Nationalism. I don't know if the writer of this article is able to look himself in teh mirror, without seeking distractions here and distractions there. Couldn't he bring himself to realizing that Hamas and Hizbullah are, in the final analysis, mere symptoms of Israel's criminality, racism and savagery.Didn't the Nazi blockade of Ghetto warsaw generate Jewish resistance? I salute Shlaim, he is telling the truth. Maybe Israelis would have the guts to admit they were wrong decades from now..when there will have been no Israel left. Evil and oppression destroy states and corrodes the moral fiber of nations. This is exactly what is happening to Jews and Israelis these days. I hope you people will wake up...you are in trouble.

Ignoring or deliberately understating what happens to Israel,selecting only the bits that suit your argument allows you to prove black is white. Try a bit of honesty you might become plausible or is it incompatible with your ideological agenda?

Rather than waste his time and ours on this wafer-thin critique of Shlaim, Tal could have put his talents in the service of country and taken to task the thugs currently in government for their appalling mismanagement of this crisis. At a time when Israeli mothers are grieving for their soldier children sent to die in a futile war, we should all be reflecting hard on the lessons learned. Instead, Tal is whining about Avi Shlaim. Wake up!!

one of israels weak points is its inablity to take any kind of criticism. shlaim makes a few relavant points. maybe if israelis examine them with a cool head, it could help them make fewer mistakes in the future. your assertion that qana cannot be deliberate because it damaged israeli intrests, has to be examined along with halutz's attitude regarding bombing civilians.the problem is some israelis just dont realise the damage they do to their nation, when they behave in the way they do.lebanon 2006 is a classic example.the harm this adventure did to israel is incalcuable, but israelis are blissfully unaware of it.

Avraham Tal is right on all counts: Avi Shlaim living in Great Britain is following the mainstream populist anti-Israeli and antisemitic line of this country. Fortunately Toni Blair and the British governement Foreign policy is wiser. J. Beauroy

If too many people do not understand you any more and a majority dislikes you and you blame it on the others, what does your shrink suggest? Right! It's not the others that are wrong, it is you who caused the problem.

Thanks to the IDF targeting Lebanese civilians with devastating success, more and more people throughout the world can see the lie that is Israel. If Israel wants to redeem itself, HOW ABOUT A COMPREHENSIVE PEACE DEAL WITH ALL OF ITS NEIGHBOURS? Or are we going to see the violence continue?

`In Shlaim's distorted worldview, the Israeli government operates as a terror organization, whereas Hezbollah is a legitimate Islamic resistance movement` This is slander of the purest kind! Shlaim never ever wrote or even suggested this opinion. Abraham Tal reacts typically Israeli to the justified criticism of Shlaim and the whole world over the disproportionate Israeli military behaviour towards its neighbours. If you criticize Israel, Israelis expect you to add all sorts of `balanced` pro-Israel remarks. Failure to do so makes you an Israel-hater in their eyes. But as long as Israelis don't internalize Shalim`s views, we will see another Qana and another and another. Israelis must surely now, after a month of death and destruction and Hezbollah stand on its feet, Nasrallah the hero of the Arab world, the kidnapped soldiers still in captivity, surely now Israelis MUST understand the bancrupcy of the military option. Shlaim's words may be painful, they are not less true.

I am almost sure that those posts of mine will not be publishe by the "democratic?" editor of Haaretz. Since may not agree with all I have said. I am challenging them to publish the 3 posts of mine a give the beginning of a sane debate without hate. I dont hate Jews and I dislike any ethnic prejudice. So please do not accuse me of antisemitism. The Jews have souffered a lot and desrve a state of their opwn but also the palestinians. The martirs of the jolocoust, I am sure are souffering more for the actions of their descendents. Peace Peace Peace that all we wont and make peace with your neighbours. Shalom

Israeli assult on Lebanon casused the death of 1,140 civilian Lebanese. If each of these dead Lebanese know 20 people and have 30 relatives, then 1,140*50= 57,000 who hates Israel to the max. 1 million displaced = 1 million people who hate Israel. 2.5 millions indirectly affected by the Israeli offensive = 2.5 millions who do not like Israel at all. 300m arab viewers watching death toll of israeli army machine. At least 1/4 enraged= 75million who now hate Israel more than before. If you apply this math to the 7 wars on Lebanon (i.e. multiply by 2 to be conservative), the number will be much higher. Got it now!!!

..attack soldiers and abducted 2 of them and retain them as exchange tool for the 1000' of palestinian and arab prisoners detained by israel. Amongst them children and wimen. So Israel have no difficulties to start a war but instead to search and fight Herzbollah militants prefers to bombard indiscriminately infrastructures civilians, wimen and children making massacres. Un is investigating the action Of Israel IDF as possibilities of war crimes committed by IDF. In your article critical of the historian conclusion, you mr. Tal do not mention anyting of the kind. Of COURSE Israel is right in pursuing all these actions and Arabs have the impudence to react with what they can. Certainly they do not have US to supply them with the ultimate technology of weapons. The world is fed up with this kind of behaviour. It is time that Israel sit and negotiate with arabs and palestinians. I am sure that Israel than will leavbe in peace in the pre 1967 territories with all arab and palestinians.

This is what you say in your email: "Why??? You democrate people, you don`t accept other peoples choice. You want to destroy all what you don`t like...why??? accept our politic choice. accept to discuss with your enemy, you optain peace." What you and Bush says, no discussion with Hizb, syria or iran. Which peace you want if you ignore your enemy. Keep in mind we are open for a dialog. but what the iranian president says a bout jews , Israel etc.. is stange to hear. He wants to destroy Israel. Is there any thing else we can say to a man who openly says that ? Give us an idea !!!.. Things can be turned around, but noone is fooled, you are the ones who say you want to destroy us, we are not. We did not kidnapt anyone, nor sent no rockets first.I know it is hard to accept, your pride will only be regained, by accepting your failures first. Israel has been here for 60 years, accept it like Egypt or Jordan and move on.

Isnt that allready "moral depravity"? The rest is "crybaby", keeping Eastern Jerusalem and blaming the Arabs for being aggressiv

Your anlysis is completely bias toward Israel. U fai to mention the continbue illegal occupation of what should be, and have been recognized as well by ONU, the Palestine state. U continue to enlarge settlements in these territories. U wish to cmpletely ethnic cleansing the all west bank and gaza. U continue to target assassination, even though as been labelled illigalby the ONU and Hague court. U continuer to bomb civilians in gaza and west bank with pretext of terrorists hiding, You systematically refuse to sit and discuss a road to peace with the pretext that you have non partner in negotiations. Recentely Israel massacrd an entirely family on gaza beach. The hamas response was to attack a military post and abduct one soldier. Hamas did not attack any civilian in retaliation. Israel response was to kidnap and abduct most of democratically elected palestinian parlamentarians. Hezbollah could not stay silent and watch the massacrationm of Gaza infrastructures and civilians, so did..

It deliberately hits residential apartment blocks - ten high rise blocks (1000 homes) at a time. It blows up convoys of fleeing refugees. Tyre doctors were reporting at least six convoys per day being hit. Israel attacks ambulances, aid convoys, food factories - dozens upon dozens of targets that have nothing to do with Hizbullah. Justice Minister Ramon promised to wipe out every village in southern Lebanion, and said he regarded ALL who were left there were terrorists, at a time when the UN said THOUSANDS of civilians were still trapped. Israel certainly acts like a terrorist organisation. We can just be thankful that the other terrorists are not as good at killing children as Israel.

Not kidding at all, I'm afraid. Over 1,000 civilian deaths, of which over 350 were children below the age of 5; oh, and a hundred odd Hizballah members which seem to have been killed off as an afterthought. Which makes you wonder: if Isra?li "surgical strikes" are really so precise and intend to hit targets, then what exactly was Isra?l targetting?

"To gain credibility and avoid making new enemies, Israel should take great pains to avoid civilian casualties, and then apologize when civilian casualties occur." This is what Israel does. Despite the tragic deaths of Lebanese civilians in this round of mayhem, 99.975% of the Lebanese civilans are alive. Less than 1% of the bombs dropped by Israel killed civilians. The Israelis have long been convinced that there is nothing they could do that would "gain credibility" and "avoid making new enemies". Take, for example, Lebanon. In 2000 the Israelis left every square millimeter of Lebanon. The UN certified it as so. Yet, Hezbullah has managed to create a dispute out of Chabaa Farms. It is a lark to claim that the territory is Lebanese. Still, Hezbullah has been recast as a "resistance movement". Israel leaves, and a "resistance movement" flourishes in response to their "occupation". And Gaza? Israel leaving is misinterpreted as beign "chased out" and the haters are emboldened

Instead of "Lebanes people" write "Israeli people" and I will think your post is a very intelligent one.

mr.tal you have an excellent medium in which to expound your ideas on mid-east solutions,your prognosis of outcome.tell us how you see things,not why someone is wrong

it is just disgust and scorn.