The AG's campaign against Arab MKs

But apparently distasteful enough that you prefer to dismantle the only Jewish state in the world. What to you is a matter of convenience others found a matter of life and death. I?m not sure when it would have been convenient for the Jews to have a nation of their own. Perhaps you could point out a place in time and space when it was ?convenient? for such an event. I hear people are still offering us bits of the Antarctic (particularly on the loose parts of the Ross Ice Shelf). Tell me this, was it convenient for the British and French colonists to invade what is now Canada? Or perhaps the Spanish Mexico? How about the Australian prison? Or if we go back far enough the conquest from Arabia, which stretched to Spain? Was Rome convenient? How about Genghis Khan. The problem is not so much convenience, but people like you, who stick their noses in the air and while touting how Zionism is ?much less distasteful? than other nationalisms, seem to find it the only one who?s supporters should ?not cling to old axioms?. Answer me this. How long do you plan on clinging to Canadian nationalism? Is it time to free Quebec? Or how about giving up Vancouver, along with Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Toronto, and Montreal back to the old original inhabitants. It?s so easy to get others to ?choose? to change their lives. You ready to give up yours? Most Jews, live either in Israel or the US. That?s what?s left after 2,000 years of pain and suffering. Less than 60 years ago they wiped out roughly 40% of our population. That?s my grandparents era, not so long ago. 60 years ago, and the so-called ?open societies? found it acceptable to let as march into oblivion. No Jordan, you?re not that special. So try working on your own life before dictating someone else?s.

if they are parallel to pollard, exellent, we shall jall them for life. AGREED.

if israel is so draconian why arabs are trying by tens of thousands to get in and i do not know even one case of going to other -ARAB -country? they are getting false marriages, buy houses in east jerusalem and crazy of all actively study hebrew. Why they don't want to go to better places - lebanon, suria, saudi arabia etc?

Two states next to each other, with in the first decade probably still some tenson and distrust, but if the Israelis fully comply and if Hamas et al stay quiet, then eventuelly it will come around. It's not easy but it has to, because there is no alternative. The state of Israel (which you apparently equal with zionism) will never going to go away. And I say openly that I would never want it to. Israel has to stay. By the way, I am not a jew, just an expat.

The AG is doing something that smacks of partisanship. The tactic is clear: accuse the Arab MK of treason so that the elections will focus on a security instead of focusing on the social problems that are the consequences of a costly occupation of the West Bank and the repression of the intifadah It is very sad that this AG is doing his best to make the label of apartheid state stick on Israel. His case is without any kind of factual occurrences that can trigger a trial for illegal travels let alone for treason There is something that should be stressed : the situation of the Arabs in Israel is quite special: they are the remnant of the indigenous people of the land, and they don?t have any reason to be loyal to a state that is not considering them as full fledged citizens. There no outright discriminations law like segregation in the USA pre 1964, but the security laws that are enacted do the job of discriminating against Arabs quite efficiently. An example: there are quiet a lot of Arab-Israelis at the university of Bologna, on the 31 March in order to commemorate the day of the land they have to ask other groups to organise it for them because if they are spotted by Israel?s security services they can loose their passport. That is why it is a group of Israelis and Diaspora Jews that organises this important festival

tulip: Jordan, I believe zionism IS compatible with the present setting. Both states can live next to each other and the dream of zionism can still be there. thats a nice belief tulip, i hope it fulfills you without requiring you to kill too many people. i mean that. really, though, lets make this whole debate more worthwhile and start describing how exactly you see the modus vivendi coming to pass in light of demographics and regional politics. lets start airing some creative original solutions. thats not sarcastic, lets hear it.

haha actually its not cold in vancouver, but its a cute theory. jacob: It`s amusing Jordan, that out of all the nationalisms, ethno-centric groups, and political philosophies, only Zionism requires a massive change in its central ideology and people. did i say that? no. in fact, on paper, i find zionism much less distasteful than many other ideologies. its no less moral, in my opinion, than arab nationalism, shia revolutionary islam, or neoconservatism. a people without a land for a land without a people sounds fine. the problem is that it was put to use in an inconvenient place at an inconvenient time in history. the past, however, cannot be undone, and this results in a very unpleasant set of choices for today's generation. but my point is this: no one is forcing us to cling to the old zionist axioms except ourselves! if they harm us and others, why stick to them blindly and not be more adaptive? we have the luxury to do so, since most jews live in open societies. by no means am i saying russian, chinese, iranian, indian or french national ideologies are any better than zionism. same goes for neoconservatism, liberalism, the dream of world governance, or communism. they're just not the topic of debate. sorry, jacob, i dont think you or i are as special as you assumed.

But apparently there are those who still believe that Jews need to come up with a daily reason to legitimize Israel's existance. I take issue with those who step up and declare that Zionism is either useless, or degrading to others. You have a point to make, go make it with Jordan.

"Why don`t you first try explaining to the Palesitnians and Arabs why Arab nationalism and Islamic fundamentalism is a failed ideology and need to open their minds, etc. etc." - Jacob Blues Arab Nationalism was a natural response to colonialism. It had failed by the Yom Kippur War. Islamic Fundamentalism is a dying idea, dying of the fact that now it is mainly aimed at Muslims. Zionism is an ideology which was fulfilled when the Idea, a Jewish homeland where Jews could flee when it got too bad at home, has long been fulfilled. Grow up, get past it. What is needed is a modus vivendi, where people stop killing and get on living.

"Consider that if MK Tibi did what he does in Israel in muslim countries like Syria or Egypt he would be welcoming the day in a prison cell with maybe some torture added." - Yoram That dose not matter. He is not a citizen of a dictatorship. Or, do you think he is?

Go where you obviously have no problems. Where is your loyalty Australia or with the dogma of Socialist International? Just because I do not put up with lies,half truths and socialist slogans does not mean my loyalty is anywhere other than Oz. With your poisonous outpourings at Howard maybe it is time to move to a country that meets your high standards of truth and social justice.Arabia needs you,go where your heart lies.

If his loyalty is to the state of israel, why does he live in Melbourne?

"I notice some of the others can`t post too often without a sexual or sexist reference." - Peter S & M tie me up and whip me into submission! I have no idea what gets you on or censored. I just thought, peter, that I would push the limit and see what happened.

"I see that the last letter of Mr Yossi Mahran to me was removed from the forum." - DeeDee All Hail the Emperor Maximus Deletus!

"If the Arab-Israeli members of Knesset actively espouse the views of the enemy countries they visit would it be then considered treason?" - DeeDee DeeDee, though I am conversant with the Constitution of the United States, I am not conversant with the laws of Israel (there is no Israeli constitution). I think that the most subversive point that could ever be made is that an Israeli Arab could disagree with his governemnt.\. Would I particularly respect an elected member of any government that disagreed with the right of the government he was elected to, to exist? No. What makes the difference? Does the person disagree with the existence of the government, or the policies of the government? I have often disagreed with the policies of the government of the United States, but never with the existence of the United States. Any person who thinks that Israel has no right to exist and yet is an elected member of the government of Israel is a fraud.

"However, that is not the issue here. The point is, whether it is within the boundries of democracy to deny an elected representative in the parliament certain rights given to all others, on the grounds of his religion or ethnic origin." - Hanoman I agree Hanoman. we have two disputes in play. Does a member of a democratic society have the right to oppose that societies norms? Does a representative of a minority in that society have the right to oppose the norms of the majority? Or, to relate those to the current debate: Should Israel limit the scope and subject of Israeli travels? Should Israeli Members of Parliament limit their behavior to coincide with the law of the majority despite it's relative insignificance to the minority? To a very real extent, I have no right to impose myself on either point. I shall, however, do both. First, Churchill said "jaw, jaw, jaw is better than war, war, war." Thus to me any intercourse between Israel and it's enemies, or more important, those nations which are technically opposed, yet are no imminent threat, is good. And likewise, if a member of the Israeli government travels to a another nation and makes statements that oppose the Israeli majority, might this not be a valid expression of an honest view of the Israeli minority? One very reason the United States has succeeded is that our Constitution makes it very hard for the majority to trample upon the essential rights of the minorities. We are talking about behavior which will most likely result in no harm to Israel and can only establish the fact in Arab minds that an Israel politician of Arab derivation has the right to oppose the Jewish majority with - or without - Jewish reprisals. Which is the better view? That an Arab Israeli can disagree, or that he must agree?

Consider that if MK Tibi did what he does in Israel in muslim countries like Syria or Egypt he would be welcoming the day in a prison cell with maybe some torture added. As an apparent american muslimah, who enjoys everything the US has to offer, it seems to me you should first be working to bring democracy and minority rights to the Arab world, so you might then be able to present a real argument, based on arab countries having a higher standard of human rights and democracy than Israel.

It's amusing Jordan, that out of all the nationalisms, ethno-centric groups, and political philosophies, only Zionism requires a massive change in its central ideology and people. Why don't you first try explaining to the Palesitnians and Arabs why Arab nationalism and Islamic fundamentalism is a failed ideology and need to open their minds, etc. etc. Or you could try France, I hear that they've got a few issues regarding their ethnic mix and national character. Or maybe Russia? Or China? etc. Or even Ghandi's India, which managed to match 50% of the combined body count of the past five year Israeli/Palestinian war in but a single day.

I notice some of the others can't post too often without a sexual or sexist reference.

I see that the last letter of Mr Yossi Mahran to me was removed from the forum. Too bad it was ever published. I wonder if you will publish my letter or will it be censured to cover your lack of judgement.

Jordan, I believe zionism IS compatible with the present setting. Both states can live next to each other and the dream of zionism can still be there. Without zionism there is no state of Israel and if that is what you want, to abolish the state, right here, right now, you will find me opposite of you.

BM: i see an israel with a jewish majority as an imperative - i am unsure if that makes me less of a human being or zionist or a supporter of arsenal. that totally depends on what youre willing to inflict upon others in order to maintain your imperative. you tell me. BM: there are 5.7 million jews in an ocean of 300 million muslims and the only hope we have is that we keep our identity. only hope of what? of maintaining your identity? of perpetuating jewish existence? identity is first and foremost a personal psychological phenomenon. why commit yourself to a position that requires you to both accept someone elses pre-prescribed identity for yourself and that forces you to justify eventual ethnic cleansing or de facto apartheid so you can feel good about who you are. no ones forcing you to espouse zionism. youve chosen it because it makes you feel like part of something. you dont have to swallow it whole. im saying this as a concerned friend who was once there. you have travelled the mid east and doubtless seen the regrettable lack of freedoms afforded most citizens in those countries. they cant come out and say things that challenge the ideological status quo without fear of being thrown in jail. you, on the other hand, are free. yet youre still imprisoning your own mind. in no small part, as you say, you dont want to contemplate change because you have a wife and child. i undestand this wholeheartedly. however, that doesnt change the facts. its just a matter of how honest you want to be with yourself.

If the Arab-Israeli members of Knesset actively espouse the views of the enemy countries they visit would it be then considered treason?

BM: i see an israel with a jewish majority as an imperative - i am unsure if that makes me less of a human being or zionist or a supporter of arsenal. that totally depends on what youre willing to inflict upon others in order to maintain your imperative. you tell me. BM: there are 5.7 million jews in an ocean of 300 million muslims and the only hope we have is that we keep our identity. only hope of what? of maintaining your identity? of perpetuating jewish existence? identity is first and foremost a personal psychological phenomenon. why commit yourself to a position that requires you to both accept someone elses pre-prescribed identity for yourself and that forces you to justify eventual ethnic cleansing or de facto apartheid so you can feel good about who you are. no ones forcing you to espouse zionism. youve chosen it because it makes you feel like part of something. you dont have to swallow it whole. im saying this as a concerned friend who was once there. you have travelled the mid east and doubtless seen the regrettable lack of freedoms afforded most citizens in those countries. they cant come out and say things that challenge the ideological status quo without fear of being thrown in jail. you, on the other hand, are free. yet youre still imprisoning your own mind. in no small part, as you say, you dont want to contemplate change because you have a wife and child. i undestand this wholeheartedly. however, that doesnt change the facts. its just a matter of how honest you want to be with yourself.

and they go to the rascist fascist Arab opressors to do it. If they tried it out of any Arab country they and their families would be dead. Throat cutting seems to have made a comeback lately.

I fully agree with Mr Kaines idea of trading Mahran for Ron Arad. When he runs out of ideas, Mahran calls other people names. When he runs out of names, who knows what he will do. Like many fifth columnists, Mahran is incapable of dialog. Hezbollahstan is the only place he can practice his "talents"

Tulip, congratulations, you demonstrate my point exactly. im not prescribing this quagmire as preferrable. rather im describing the unfortunate reality as i see it. im saying that without a massive change in zionist ideology, the state of israel, as both democratic and jewish, is at best a farce and at worse, doomed. clinging to a failed ideology for personal psychological reasons will not make the problem go away. it will only make it worse. its high time zinoists started opening their minds and stopped committing themselves blindly to decisions taken by people generations ago. as least israel's a free country, in which you can attempt to espouse new ideas. the arabs dont have such a luxury as their illegitimate regimes are supported by the west so as to maintain stable energy prices. so dont expect it from them. as gandhi said, be the change you wish to see in the world ... and if u dont want to change, prepare to slowly crash and burn.

--murders,racist opression in Arab countries are a made up by the Zionist press. Sudan was a prime example of Zionist propoganda. Palestinians murdering each other in Gaza and even stealing the animals from the Gaza zoo,why what could be a more obvious Zionist plot.

"If they break the law and visit a country at war with the US or Australia I presume that YES, they would be arrested, investigated, and if indicted, tried in a court of law. It`s that simple." - DeeDee No, just visiting does not constitute treason in the US. It might violate some other law, but not treason. The brilliant American fascist poet Ezra Pound did more than visit Italy in WW II. He undertook to perform extensive propaganda broadcasts on behalf of his hero Mussolini. At that point he became a traitor.

--with being an Israeli MK.By definition they belong to the enemy. The enemy that talks about wiping Israel off the face of the earth,not just an end to Zionism. At best these people are a security risk,I think you need to add that to the equation. PS. The Iranian PM talks about Israel as step one,the "arrogant"West is to follow. Peter.

I have a copy of the Constitution at hand Jane, and was aware that it is the only crime defined in the Constitution. To violate it one must either make war against the United States, as for instance Robert E. Lee did. Or physically aid an enemy in time of war in pursuit of the enemies activities. For example, when a certain American Medal of Honor winner was a prisoner of war on a German train in the late days of WW II and helped Germans who were injured when the train was shot up by American fighter bombers did not engage in treason, even though an ass might argue he gave aid and comfort. And no single accuse can be sufficient to convict.

Mr. Lincoln, I agree, it does seem to say something about how the Israeli Arabs feel about Jewish Israel. However, that is not the issue here. The point is, whether it is within the boundries of democracy to deny an elected representative in the parliament certain rights given to all others, on the grounds of his religion or ethnic origin. That is what is happening right now and it is sad. Sad for democracy, sad for the Arabs who are involving in the democratic process, and sad for Israel as a democratic society!

Dan..I can see how much you enjoy the fruit of living under Israeli rule you are safely tucked away in California..Do us a favour and stay there..We don't need your like in here.

your right if my brother is a member of parliment(which is highly improbable, please name one native american congressman)i should cede all right to talk of the plight of my brothers to any one who is not of the like mind's of my fellow congressman who might not share my same view.but hey its your world i just live in it.

I could see your point if they served in the Gov't, but in opposition they of course look to their own, just as Israeli Jews look to Jews in the Diaspora, for support, talking sh-t about Israeli Palestinians.

In a democracy foreign policy is in the hands of the elected government. Not, in the hands of opposition representative. Particularly when dealing with countries that are in a formal state of war. Giving aid and comfort to enemy countries in wartime, which is what Lebanon and Syria are, is treason. There should be penalties and I don't think the death penalty is out of line here. It's that simple. Only Jews seem to feel the need to see mutiple sides to a question even if they aren't there. Finally, to ME, I really don't know what your talking about but I'll cite a major difference. Canada, has far has I know, is not in a formal state of war with Iran or anybody else. That makes all the difference in the world.

I did't understand how aboriginals or Indians illustrate your point unless they happened to be members of Congress or Parliament, right? If they break the law and visit a country at war with the US or Australia I presume that YES, they would be arrested, investigated, and if indicted, tried in a court of law. It's that simple.

So I read this article and wondered..what did they actually do? If all they did was spout some rhetoric then so what...Israel is supposed to be a democracy..isn't it? If what they did was illegal then they should have been arrested when they came back or given the one way option like arafat was given. This in my opinion is racism and vindictiveness like this should not be used on a whim basis. This may be some sort of pressure tactic because I highly doubt it will be pursued as it will confirm that racism does exist in israeli democracy. If any of these MK's all of a sudden joins the Kadima party then you will know what will happen to there charges, they will be dropped. Sharon is looking to build a party and an Arab MK would bring in some votes. Mazuz did drop those obvious bribery charges against Sharon and this could just be another favor.

"Rummsfeld (a non-Jewish neocon" - Jane I don't know where the myth that the neocons are mostly Jewish came from. Part of the lunacy that suggests that Israeli influence over the US government cause the conquest of Iraq I guess. "Rummsfeld . . . has served the US through government postings for his entire career." - Jane He was a USN Instructor Pilot under Eisenhower, and riffed (Reduction In force) in the late 50s. He was in congress back in the 60s, and then had a few minor jobs under Nixon. One of America's least appreciated Presidents, Gerald Ford, made him his Chief of Staff. He was one of the main coup plotters in the "Sunday Night Massecre" which led to the ouster of James Schlessinger (whom I really liked), Henry Kissinger (whom I didn't) and a few others from the Ford Administration. Rummy became Secretary of Defense, getting Schelssinger's job. He held a number of jobs under Reagan, but the only one that I remember well was his role as Special Envoy in the middle east. I opposed the transfer of WMD to Saddam who, no matter how much trouble he caused Iran, seemed a loose cannon to me. And, of course, he has been Secretary of Defense under Dubbya. So, I guess he has served in government positions much of his life, but I think that spent almost as much time out of government. "Jeez could it be that you actually blame Reagan?" - Jane To me Reagan was an old New Deal Democrat that jumped ship to the Republican party in 1964. I didn't like him as a democrat, and I didn't like his borrow and spend policies. My primary impression of him during the Goldwater campaign was that during the last months of the campaign, when Barry was out of money, some industrialists and real estate developers approached him with a speech. "Read this on TV," they said, "and we will finance your campaign." Barry read it and turned them down, deeming it a 'fascist document." The then offered to fund his campaign if he would let someone else read it for the campaign. He agreed so long as someone else read it. That someone else was Ronald Reagan. It became known as "The Speech" and Reagan kept giving it for years. "Hummm, was he a neo-con too?" - Jane Actually Jane, many older neocons were originally democrats. "I don`t know Mark. It sounds to me like you are turning into a neo-lib, or is that just for Jews too?" - Jane Naw, I am just an Eisenhower Republican who hasn't changed with the fashion.

If the natives to the land of Israel, who are Jewish, travel to an Arab country other than Jordan or Egypt, they are denied entry. Thats racist. Israel was around long before these made up arab countries were. All citizens of Israel have the same rights, Jewish, Arab, all citizens. Whether individual abide by this or not, its their decision, but Israel is a Democracy and a Jewish state with equal rights for all. If a Jew goes to Palestine, i.e., Jordan, he is unable to get Palestinian/Jordanian citizenship. Thats racist. If an MK, Jewish or Arab, calls for the destruction or Israel, thats treason and he/she should be held accountable. Pollard committed act of treason in US and is serving time. Why should Arab MKs be held accountable? IF they wanted to serve their constituents, they should be helping them in Israel. Going to the enemy during war doesnt help their constituents but shows them as treasonous to me and should be prosecuted under the law. If they go to the enemy to make peace, they need to go as official representatives of the State of Israel.

Sorry, but I doubt you Yossi. You sound like Khalid, you provide half baked commentary like Khalid, and you use the "racist" commentary like Khalid.

if an aboriginal or indians as you call us travels to palestine or iran and complains about the conditions and the racism we are subjected to should we be put to death for treason.or should we be sent to the reserve to be good little indians.

Section 3 Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

Meaning, we all make mistakes! It is true that we in the US have had some very bad bedfellows including Saddam who we did prop up against the Iranians. Rummsfeld (a non-Jewish neocon haha!)has served the US through government postings for his entire career. He is not however an elected president but only a representative of the president. In other words don't blame him blame the person at the top. Jeez could it be that you actually blame Reagan? Hummm, was he a neo-con too? I don't know Mark. It sounds to me like you are turning into a neo-lib, or is that just for Jews too?

Many of their constituents have protested loudly at their behavior.They are not acting appropiatly for Israeli MKs thereis not justifacation for it at all.They should be charged with mishcheif and their junkets to the hate mills in Damascus where they can buy Israel hatred at discount prices must be stopped. Who the hell do they think they are?

Syria and Lebanon are both countries officialy at war with Israel, they go there and make anti Israel statements and have tea with Israels enemies.When I see Baath Party memebers and lebanese members of parliment coming to israel and oding the same towards there countries I guess then it will be fair enough.These Arab Mks know they are not supposed to go and they do.Thatsthe problem they ar visiting and enemy country and making anti Israel statements there.If they hateIsrael so much they should not serve in Parliment.Regards

I am listening to my preferred radio station, which is today broadcasting from Israel. This is an important detail. They usually broadcast from Madrid, but if they want to support some town which has any problem, they broadcast from this town, as a means of support. Today and tomorrow the program is in Israel. I am very sorry I have just come home, almost an hour after the beginning of the program, and they were interviewing an Israeli official.

I still don't understand what they have done so that you would have liked them arrested at arrivel. Was it just going there that upsets you or if they said something then would you have a quote, or both?

The best he could do to reply to my post was to accuse me of being Khalid in disguise. Sorry to dissapoint you but I am real and I can assure you I am not Khalid.

You are 100% correct!

Khalid is engaging in what he considers "resistance operations against the zionist plots and schemes"He will say anything to aggravate us.

Poor arab Mk's are so powerless and non influencial that they cant harm noone,especially not in the aparthaid state which they belong to,where they live as second class citizens,where their intensions and existance is frowned upon and is suspicious.Where they will never get equal rights asfar as they're concerned and always will be discriminated against. Quit the propaganda,Arab Mk's are as harmless as a fly,not to mention they're treated as flies. why should going to syria or lebonon be any danger to israel,arabs dont consider them enemies you guys do. I guess arab mk's are as guilty of unpatriotism as jonathan pollard was to USA.

I would note that the "Zionist entity" allows Islamic Fundamentaist Parties to capture municipal govts all over Israel and so I guess zionism can accomodate tradtional muslim views much better than the other way around dont you think?

This whole post is absurd. Of course these arab traitors should be shipped back to ramalah and jennin...then they can feel the hospitality of their moslem brethern...i am sure they will get a warm welcome for working with the isaeli for a generation. anywho, my point to the lost soul named above is that the reason jews need a state free of people like you is simply because we recieve even worse treatment when we live in countries run by moslems and christians than you get in Israel. If Jews were treated as well in Iraq, Iran, Tunisia, Germany, Poland, Russia as Israeli arabs are pampered in Israel we wouldnt have had to move back to Israel to escape ignorance and hate in the first place.

Thank you for an intelligent and well though through post.As you mentioned their are inherent difficulties right now for Israeli arab participation in Israeli Foriegn affairs both for the Govt and for the Israeli arab who would do so.I think a way around the problem for now would be for Labor to give a realistic slot or slots on the list to israeli arabs who have the credentials needed to hopefully play a positive role in negotiations with the Palestinians that might be a "safe way" for both parties concerned.Of course it will take a two state solution to allow for the proper and increasing integration of Arab Israelis into all facets of Israeli life.Where you amoungst those who particiapted in that meeting I alluded to of Arab israeli leaders in the Galille a years ago calling for more time spent on the issues at home?Are you an Israeli Arab? An author?I agree though 100% that issues of budgetary discrimination can be dealt with without and end to the conflict with the PA.The State Controller reports on it every year and even Moshe arens wrote an article about in Haretz about a month ago saying that that issue needs to be addressed immediatly.Regards Danite

MP's always critize the government, that is their job. But bad mouthing with a terrorist organisation which is also on the list of forbidden organisation in the EU is out of the question. Any MP would have to resign in Europe. Advocating the violence of ETA, IRA, Hezbollah or Hamas openly by MP's is not done.

Arab MKs are like politicians anywhere. They pander to their constituents. What worries me is that it is clear that traveling to Damascus to hang with guys who hate Israel tells me that they consider it worth the risk to pander to their constituents. I think that the Israeli right had better think long and hard about what this indicates about how Israeli Arabs feel.

"You can have any opinion you want in the US, but treason is a crime in the US, just like in Israel. Those who commit treason should be held accountable." - David Landman Treason is a unique crime in the United States. It is the only crime defined in the US Constitution. It was done so to prevent it's use for political purposes. It is very specific, and while, for example, I might consider it treasonable for George Bush to kill US soldiers for personal political and pecuniary gain, it is not "Treason" under the US Constitution. If he took arms against those same soldiers it would be Treason. If he provided intelligence to insurrectionists which helped the insurrection kill those soldiers it would be Treason. But what he has done does not meet the Constitutional definition of Treason. Neither did what "Hanoi Jane" Fonda did.

It doesn't seem that things are as bad as you put them, dear Yossi. I see that in Israel you can openly complain and write what ever crosses thru your mind and find a newspaper that happily publishes your beef. There are 22 other countries you can choose from where perhaps you and your ancestors would live happily ever after but with one catch: obey their rules, mouth their dogma and comply with their social order at all times. Are you interested or would you rather stay in " the most draconian and racist rule in modern history". Forgive me if I crack a smile.

"We have our share of American citizens who travel to Iraq and meet with Saddam . . . " - Jane Donald Rumfield when he was Reagan's special emissary delivering the chemical and biological weapons we gave him?

I think I was clear about their actions but you also asked about what they say.As long as their comments are within the Law they can say what they want.They are elected MKs in Democracy so they have freedom of speech as they should.Israel has Laws that outlaw some postions like calling for the destruction of Israel.If they would say that in public then they are my enemies and threat to the state and so should be arrested.Israel outlawed the Kach party and rightly so, so I guess their is legitimate constraints on speech.But the fact is like other Israels Arab Israelis are free too shoot their mouths off as much as they like.If its legal thats okay.Regards

I am saying that Arab MKS are first and foremost Israeli members of the Knesset.They hold their position by virtue of their Israeli citzenship(which is the way it should be).They must therefore act accordingly.If they see themselves as Arab nationalists simply "using" the institutions of the "Zionists" against them, then we have a problem,and by their very participation in the "Zionist entity" make a mockery of their strident claims.So if they do something that would consequences for a Jewsih memeber of the Knesset the same rule should apply.So chanting hate cult slogams at Israel from Damascus is definatly out though it does make a mockery out of their claims and out of Syria as they blast"phony Israeli democracy" from Damascus , which is located in a country where the Kurdish language is illegal and the internet and cel phones where illegal to 1996.Also as I noted at an important meeting of Arab academics and social workers and teachers they called on the Arab mks to spend more time on issues at home than going to Damascus for their Baathist run hate Israel sessions.Hope that clarifies if not let me know.Regards.

Failing to find merit in his own words, Khalid again attempts to write in his latest fantasy voice. Today, it is Yossi Mahran. Again, the question must be raised, why, if Khalid finds his arguments have so little merit that he would use his own voice to mouth them, that he wonders why we should believe his golden shoveling in another voice?

I believe it is time for the rest of the world to review the previous vies of Israel as being the only democracy of the Middle East. Arab Israeli MKs are tolerated only if they think a certain way. Freedom of speech and expression, it seems, does not apply to them. If they choose to make use of rights given to everybody else in Israel they are prosecuted. I.e. the fundamental democratic rights does not apply to non-jewish Israelis. This is not democracy, you guys, this is Apartheid. No matter what beautiful words you wrap around it. This behaviour and way of thinking is no better than what we see in the rest of the M.E. Sad to see the road a good idea and cause - Israel - has chosen!

You can have any opinion you want in the US, but treason is a crime in the US, just like in Israel. Those who commit treason should be held accountable.

Dear Jordan, I appreciate what you are saying to the people here but as you have gathered, most of them are brainwashed die hard Zionsits who have been brought up on adiet of hate and racism against Palestinians/Arabs and Muslims. There is no point in trying to make them see the light since they have the blinkers firmly on. For too long, they have persuaded themselves that they are right and everyoen who deosnt agree with them is wrong. They refuse to listen or rason and live in a world of fantasy. They actually think the world owe them a living. The ironic thing is that they actually see themselves as the victims as if it was the Palestinians who have invaded them and sent them across the borders as refugees and continue to persecute those poor souls who had the audacity to stay in their own homeland! You see Jordan Zionist have no shame. They lie and believe their own lies then try and put a spin on all thier lies by claiming that it was the Arabs who said them in the first place. You see Jordan, I live with them and speak thier language better than most of them. I know their mentality and can tell you that they are so arrogant and full of themselves. So my friend dont waste your breath on them and lets just hope the world will wake up one day and see them for what they really are. The racist and bigoted lot who brought so much destruction and misery to the region.

So just to clarify your stand, is it going there that should be punished or is it something that they said that should be addressed, or both?

we would have to pay them to take him.

Unlike your friend Arad, I never killed any one or been involved in a military invasion of another country. I've lived all my life in my own country, yes the country of my ancestors which sadly for me was invaded by another people claiming it was theirs and since then have subjected me and my people to the most draconian and racist rule in modern history.

Any Arab MK that does something that would get a Jewish MK arrested should also be arrested.Going off to Damascus to join the hate Israel fest and then come back to Israelis Parliment is an absurdity.They should be arrested upon return.And anyways an important meeting was held last year by Arab Israeli academics teachers and social workers in the Galilee who called on Arab MKs to stop chanting cult like slogans in Damascus and spend their time on the issues that matter to Israeli Arabs.Thats good advice.

dear jordan i see an israel with a jewish majority as an imperative - i am unsure if that makes me less of a human being or zionist or a supporter of arsenal - you must apply the labels and tags. the reality (which will be different things to different peoples)is that there are 5.7 million jews in an ocean of 300 million muslims and the only hope we have is that we keep our identity. as to enslavement - i am married with a child, but i have a mind to explore and a brain that questions and eyes that see and ears that listen i have travelled the mid east (i have a uk) passport and seen things most have not,i was always glad to be home change - i see no reason bm

Yossi Mhran calls Israel a "police state", while he calls for Israel's destruction within Israel. Why dosent Yossi liberate himself by volunteering to trade himself for Ron Arad. Once this is done, Yossi could continue to write from the democracy of Hezbollistan, and Ron Arad could come home. Im sure most Israelis would welcome this trade

"instead of forcefully adjusting reality to suit your outdated ideology, you can adjust your outdated ideology to better suit reality." I have never seen a better prognosis. Well said.

We have our share of American citizens who travel to Iraq and meet with Saddam while we are at war with him, and badmouth the US governemnt and the president to the enemy (Sean Penn), and make movies about the government's supposed motivation for going to war in the first place (Michael Moore)and in many foreign countries. Even our senators and congressmen get caught spouting off from time to time but it is just part of living in a democracy with free speech. They get lots of press coverage, talking heads pontificating on TV and radio for weeks weighing the pros and cons, and then we move to the next thing in the news. Annoying, dismaying as it may be the Arab MK's have the right to say whatever they want to anyone if you ask me. At least that's the way it is in the States.

"The AG's campaign against Arab MKs" Is this some kind of sick joke? What would you say if the headlines were; "The AG's campaign against criminals" or "The AG's campaign against corruption" An effort to promote democracy by allowing a minority representation in the knesset although they use the very position to undermine the state should be viewed as 1) stupid 2) naive 3) self destructive i see no reason to include hypocrsy or police state to tis list (unless my education and my webster's dictionary got their definition wrong wich in that case please tell me)

Curiously benevolent; I am sort of benevolent regarding Arab MK?s hop scotching the Middle East to visit Arab countries when they should be dealing with issues that concern their own constituencies, such as equality for Israeli Arabs. However we should not automatically condemn their action hence they may be making inroads for peace with our neighbors. The Israeli Arab representative and Arab community as a whole have been shut off from Israeli foreign policy. I think it would do the state so much good if they were properly utilized and assigned a role. The ironies involved in barring Israeli Arabs from foreign policy have been discussed in my book ?Scratching the Surface,? recently published in September 2005. I recognized the difficulties inherent in employing Israeli Arabs as envoys to Arab countries yet at the same time I felt that there ought to be more creative ways to engage our neighbors in productive dialogue.

How can we be expected to put up with a "legitimized" call for our own destruction (from with-in in this case.) When ANYWHERE else it would be justified to take action against such elements. In the west it would At least mean the end to a political career or maybe Jail, in a state like Palestine or North Korea or Iran etc much less would (and does) invoke a quick death penalty under"the grounds of "Treason" Why should WE have to put up with this BS???? Calling for Change is one thing, Calling for the destruction of a State and/ or its citizens is quite another.

Are not the Arabs as Israeli fondly say "Our Arabs" and if they are treasonous than they should be deported to Palestine, namely Jordan or Gaza, or even ro their country of origins Egypt or Syria. I in fact think that all Arabs and Jews should pledge an allegiance to the State of Israel and if they are not prepared to do that than it is their prerogative to move. Leftists included.

The reason for this absurd practice is clear to all. Israel is nothing but a police state that sees no problem in discriminating against its Palestinians Arabs citizens even those who it allows to run for parliament;a Public relations stunt to aimed at deceiving the outside world by pretending that Israel is a democracy! We all know that Arabs are discriminated against in all walks of life. Israel is a totalitarian state if you happen to be non Jewish. Pure and simple.

Jordan: my earlier point was that zionism, as it stands today, is incompatible with the demographic realities of the region. Jordan, how do I see this? You wanna give up on the state of Israel, because that is what your incompatibilty eventually will lead to.

bm thank you for your level headed response. now were talking. i understand that you see zionist ideology as a better alternative to the credo of assimilation. for a range of psychological reasons, i understand this opinion. however, consider this. why not reject both ideologies and simply craft your own based on an accurate reflection of the current reality? why enslave yourself to decisions made by people youve never met? why accept and fight for someone elses ideas? i encourage you to think for yourself, not as a jew or a zionist or an immigrant or an israeli, but as a human being. perhaps you've been shackled by others' failed ideas long enough?

Yossi, it seems you, Amira Haas, and Levy are journalists in an alternative universe, where all Palestinians are peace-loving, Arab MK's endlessly work their hearts out to have the arab world accept and love Israel, and the only danger to Israelis is the Israeli government itself, not suicide bombers, a crazed Iranian president, Hezbollah kidnappers, etc. Yossi, please, please tell us, is there room on your spaceship for the rest of the population?

There's a huge difference, between a left-wing activist and a member of Knesset (parliament) who visit an enemy state. Left-wing activist or a journalist are not civil employees of the state as the Knesset members are.

This is true in any nation other than Israel. Why should it be different in Israel? Arabs should be treated no better or worse than Jews in Israel. If a Jewish MK committed the same crime he should have the same fate. Be firm and fair!

perhaps we could do a deal with abdulla and send the palestinian mks to the jordanian parliament with the added guarantee that their constituencies would follow shortly thereafter. i understand that king abdulla does not look favourably at any off the cuff remarks.

dear jordan please refer my other posts on this debate. let me further add that my brother and i came to israel just prior to 73 - we believed in the state and the people and the land i never labeled myself zionist or anything to me and my fellow israelis i am a jew i stand behind my comments about the arab mk,if life is so intolerable then go elsewhere i have understanding for most people -i dont agree to the attitude of this person. i see more harm for your knowledge in intermarriage and people living and assimilating in other lands than i do in form of zionism bm

The whole logic of this piece falls apart when you consider that journalists are often treated differently from other citizens. In fact, liberals (and others) in the United States often argue that journalist be allowed to keep their sources secret for the sake of free expression. As far as the public mission being undertaken by the Arab MK's, one has to wonder which "public" it is. Certainly not the general Israel public, for whom they show nothing but hostility.

i made an earlier reply which was probably censored for length, so ill mkae this shorter. peter, im not missing the point at all. if you are a committed zionist, of course calling for no peace with israel is a horrible thing. the point is, these arab mks are not committed zionists. in fact, they are committed antizionists. this is because they represent a minority that is inherently marginalized by zionist ideology. zionism leaves no room for accomodating a typical muslim arab worldview. and of course, the typical musilm arab worldview has little room for accomodating zionism. however, the demographic reality is that israeli jews are surrounded by millions of arabs, many of whom live within the green line. this puts zionists, and i was one for quite some time, in a dillema. one, you can embrace democracy fully, and accept the fact that you must allow at least 20% of your population to continually denounce the founding principles of the state. two, you can embrace democracy fully, but only after you expell all the arabs (ie antizionists) from your population. or three, instead of forcefully adjusting reality to suit your outdated ideology, you can adjust your outdated ideology to better suit reality. in the meantime, charging arab mks for travelling to countries any zionist mk would be applauded for visiting is just making matters worse, and exposing zionist hypocricy. at least charge them with treason, like you would a jew.

Yes, folks- it IS part of the Israeli penal code, and has been for DECADES. Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as: "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." It is LONG past time for the courts to invoke and enforce this law against those who actively support our enemies and try to destroy us.

The answer to Melman's query is straight forward, and makes the enitre rhetorical question ridiculus. No, it's not OK for an elected civil servent to travel to an enemy state to stand next to the heads of terrorist organizations who are murdering Israeli citizens (tax payers and voters) and praise them. That's civics 101. It may come as a shock to Yossi Melman, but Ahmed Tibi is a civil servent, who's job is to represent Israeli citizens. Under that job description, it doesn't mean he gets to have a free pass to go to Syria to spout how wonderful Hizballah is. As Mr. Melman spelled out, the previous contacts by other Israeli's, both within the government as well as by private citizens, were to advance the interest of Israel, and assist "Jewish communities in distress". Those are indeed, right and proper functions of such actions. As well, Israel's contacts to Indonesia, Pakistan, and Iran, all to offer aid following natural disasters was also acceptable. But such instances serve Israel's citizens, not Tibi's self serving vitriol. One can see similar actions and attitudes in British MP Galloway, who has now been found out to have received oil funds from Saddam. At the very least, a quid pro quo, and at the worst, treason.

The issue at stake is not visiting enemy countries, but incitement. Arab MKs routinely encourage Iran and Syria to step up conflict with Israel, even though they benefit from Israeli democracy.One is reminded of the infamous comment of Hermann Goering, who stated " We will use the tools of democracy to destroy democracy". The Sudeten Germans were key in initiating conflict between Germany and Czechoslovakia. The Israeli Arabs help fuel conflict between Israel, Syria, and Iran. After WWII, the Czechs, recognizing the inflammatory nature of the Sudeten Germans, expelled the Sudeten Germans. Hopefully Israel will do the same

In Europe it is not done either to incite along with Hizbollah. If Spanish PM's would gather with ETA, they will soon have real problems. Dutch PM's who join Suriname Desi Bouterse, who killed his opponents in 1982, are forced to resign from parlaiment.

dear bm, i think you have misjudged me. first of all, im a not full of hate for israel. im a jew by blood, i volunteered for the IDF, i have family in israel, have spent years living there, and i am earning a masters degree from an israeli instiution. i would be glad to discuss any element of regional or domestic politics with you. sadly, i think you are the one who is mistaken in believing that the predicament of arabs in israel has nothing to do with zionism. if all arabs within the green line were proud supporters of the zionist ideal, we would not be having this debate. the point is not all arabs are proud supporters of the zionist ideal, nor should we expect them to be. its like asking zionists to support the palestinians' full right of return. we can understand why they want to come back, sure, but since that means an end to our independent statehood, we're not too keen on seeing it come to pass. my earlier point was that zionism, as it stands today, is incompatible with the demographic realities of the region. unless, of course, youre more committed to your ethno-centric ideology than you are to human rights. if thats the case, be frank about it, and advocate transfer. just dont try to fool anyone into thinking its democratic to treat one ethnicity differently than another.

daft reply from the usual clueless plonkers that take refuge in these forums zionism has nothing to do with this debate only a left wing bleeding heart apologist finds zionism this is about a minority group who has the full democractic right of others,landing in an enemy country and then bad mouthing his home land if he does not like being an mk - then go! if he does not like israel, then take his family and have fun in syria if democracy is not for him and a totalatarian regime is what he looking for - then the region is full of tyrants BUT if the mk wants to promote the rights of his people or the percieved injustices,going to syria is not going to change anything your post indicates the total lack of idea you have about israel or the region and the only thing it clearly shows is your hate of israel bm

dear bill one of the major differences between israel and the usa is that over here not a single person can agree with anybody about anything. forget the left wing shnooks from europe or where have you with their bleeding heart ideas of right and wrong........... if you listened to any two of the most liberal or even the most extreme in our knesset you will then come to understand that we cannot come to any concensus about a thing if you want logic and common sense you are addressing the wrong people bm

Maybe you should confront the reason why you neglected to mention they key issue. Trust me you guys will feel better.

Only in Israel would this even be a discussion. The Jewish angst here is incredible.I don't know how it works in Israel but in the US members of congress swear an oath to the constitution, the country. The question is this, are Lebanon and Syria in a state of war with Israel. The answer is yes. Are these men elected representatives of the state of Israel, yes. Do they align themselves with an enemy state, yes. Is this treason, and should be punished with the death penalty, emphatically, yes.

Their immorality (ie treason)is expressed by sitting in an Israeli parliament and working to undermine it. If they do not recognise it they should not be there. If they have morals they should go to a nice Arab country and not lie about being Israeli if they are not. In Palestine they could sit back and enjoy the racist filth on the OFFICIAL media on "pigs and monkeys","kill the infidels wherever you find them" etc etc. They could rejoice in the ethnic cleansing of Jews in 1948 and commiserate on how they lost their wars of "annihilation" against the Jews. OK Mr K.?

Colin pretty much hits the nail on the head. If a Jewish MK (eg a foreign minister or PM) were invited to visit with Assad or Khamenei, there is no doubt in my mind that the law would be ignored or revoked, assuming the meeting served the Israeli government's perceived interests. The point here is that these Arab MK arent members of the government, and jews know their views are antizionist. Jews see these guys as the enemy, who unfortunately made it into the knesset because of a little problem called democracy. The real problem, however, is the obvious incompatibility between zionism as it stands and true democracy. a zionist state free of arabs could be totally democratic. the problem for zionists it - its not free of arabs. in fact, there are many of them and theyve been here for quite a while. from the outside, going after the arab MKs in this way is obvious discrimination. from inside israel, however, there is such an atmosphere of islamophobia (only exacerbated by suicide bombing) that these actions are glazed over as totally acceptable and necessary. however, whats really at issue here? travel, or treason? if the current israeli establishment really took equality seriously, it would be trying these MKs on charges of treason, ie for what they say, not on charges of travel. of course, charging arabs for treason because they say bad things about the zionist state only reemphasises the incompatibility between zionism and arab presence. its time zionists just faced up to the dillema. trust me guys, you feel better once you just confront it.

Sorry Colin, as long as you advocate the Replacement Theology I do not take you seriously as a debater. No matter what story you timbered together.

if the israeli arabs were being held down by force,how comes that they are walking freely around in damascus? if the israeli arabs are being held down by force how comes they work as doctors and dentists and nurses in Israel? you are being selective in you reply so as to fit it in with your argument - here we have an arab mk with every freedom (prove otherwise) and all that is asked that he does not travel to enemy states and then bad mouth israel nevertheless who cares - you dont because you are safe and sound in the usa & as with all israel bashers they like to bash from afar (to be safe!) if the palestinians are looking for you for support,then lord help them bm

If a Dutch, a French or, e.g. a British MP would do such a thing it would cause much stirr in these countries. It is unacceptable to do such a thing. Bad mouthing your country in the way several Arab MK have done is totally unacceptable.

Once again, Israel is stumbling over the fact that while it pretends to be an egalitarian state, it is not. Arabs are second-class citizens,held down by force. Of course they cannot concert with the 'enemy.' Jews are first-class citizens, and are accorded all the liberties that go with that status. Of course they can visit the 'enemy.' They can visit just about anyone they want. Some have attempted to draw the distinction on the basis of hostility to the state, but that fails: I doubt if any Jew would be prosecuted for such a trip regardless of his attitude. Really, the policy is obscure and inconsistent only because of Israeli hypocrisy. If Israel were frank about what she was, the logic of how the policy is applied would be quite clear.

Birshara as I understand it encouraged Hizbollah attacks on Israeli soldiers. Isn't that treason? Tibi transmitted inside information on Israeli negotiating tactics to Arafat. Tibi obviously was acting as one who supported the Palestinian and not the Israeli side. A blanket prohibition may be wrong, but case by case there is certainly room for banning certain politicians from traveling to certain countries.

I wasn't aware that those journalists are actively supporting our enemies (besides Amira Haas, who does). The Arab MKs do. Openly. And as to arms dealers, if they're selling arms to our enemies, then arrest them, try them, convict them, and punish them. It's really quite simple.

How very "delightful" to glance through Melman's melodrama today. Melman and Haaretz' Israel's own Leftist goof-ups, have in fact apologetically and defensibly side with a member of Israel's own parliament - Arab MK Azmi Bishara - who travels to Syria and gives encouragement to Hezbollah. Bravo Haaretz you certainly get the traitorship prize

Bashri and Tibi are both technically traitors by inciting the Arab population against the very establishment that that they "work for". Journalists are supposed to be objective as we have seen with BBC?s partial apology for their reporter crying as Arafat was airlifted to a hospital. All the more so for a Knesset member that is anti state and anti the very establishment that gave them their jobs. And it?s not an ideological opposition but violent quotes that can be attributed to them both. Of course they shouldn?t be allowed to conspire with enemies of the state.

Arab mk's have the perfect and legitimate right to travel to any country who will have them and if the mk's are welcome in syria or lebanon or hong kong or ping pong who cares? the mk's cross the boundaries when they go to these countries and bad mouth israel - this is not acceptable the mk's are the spokespeople of not only their constituents but also of a nation which has given them democratic rights and social advantages over their other arab bretheren in other arab countries it behoves people not to bite the hand that feeds them. if the arab mk feels so bad about israel, there is no problem him staying in syria where birds of a feather can flock together bm

It never stops me thinking why an Arab MP liase with an enemy state and what really is discussed,i wonder if a Jewish MP of an Arab state went to Israel and was treated as humane as Arab MPs are in Israel.................. Then again Arab states would never let a Jewish MP(not that i have ever heard of one in the last 20 years)travel abroad as he/she would tell of the opression facing Jews in Arab countries which Arabs never seem to put in the public forum unlike the barking coming out of those states about Israel.Strange world we live in,damn if we do damned if we dont

Their loyalties are for the people they represent, who are part of the Palestinian people. The fact that the state is a racist state and was built on ethnic cleansing and thus has immoral interests does not mean that the Arab MKs should give up their moral views and support the immoral interests.

If they owe their loyalties elsewhere,they should go elsewhere. If they work to undermine Israel they should be treated accordingly. How this can be compared to journalists and arms dealers is beyond my understanding.

we should be thinking about cedeing the palestinian villages and not whether the attorney general is kind enough to them. start with musmus and umm al fahm.