Returning to the dream of Jerusalem

Jews cant be trusted.theyve been snaking and coaxing their way all throughout history.backstabbing,betraying.some claim they had a heroic trek in the sinai.thats false.they were lost in the sinai foro 40 years or somthin because they went behind moses's back and prayed to a cow made out of dates

Hello Jews everywhere: Jerusalems belongs to Jews,Christians and Muslims.Declare it an International City under UN or Vatican or Swiss.It will bring peace to the region.If we mess with Status of Jerusalem than the world will end up in smoke as it is the birth place of all three religions.Jesus is more dearer to Muslims and Christians than to Jews.Stop messing around with words and history as Jews are great at twisting facts and history. We are part of same tree Abraham.Mosses,Jesus and Mohammed.May God guide us for peace.

The majority of Israelis derive from the Turkic Khazars.

God created the world, and he decides what land belongs to who. this is why the first words of the bible start with "in the beggining god created the world..." to the Arabs: you have no right to own any land in the Holy land, either leave or Israel should either expelle you or kill you.

Father Abraham got Israel as a gift to handle over.It is your country,all of it. Do not forget it! I want to visit your beautiful country a third time in March. my last perhaps,being 72.I'll pray for you.Love! Ingrid

hollingsworth, You may make anything you want and claim that Holocaust was among the "least severe", but before writing something that is factually erroneous, please brush up on the history. Most Ukrainians who died in 30's weren't Catholic, but Christian Orthodox. Western Ukraine, where most of the Ukrainians are of Unitarian / Christian Orthodox / Catholict rite was still part of Poland, up until the Molotov-Ribentropp pact. Rural Ukrainians who died in hunger were not targeted due to their ethnicity - many other ethnic groups suffered terribly during the first 20 years of Soviet regime. No one denies other atrocities. But Hitler's calculated extermination policy does stand out. If you don't want to hear about Shoah, feel free not to visit this board. Storm front or KKK or islamo-fascist sites would be more fitting and you'd not feel "sick and tired" there

Israel has more of a right to its land than the United States has to its land. John Powers

You are speaking of jealousy and you don?t care what others think and no body can take the land back and Moslem fanatics All of that and you accuse the others of being blind while you are closing your ears and eyes to the others. Isn?t this what you said? I don?t know but this reminds me with DR. Baruch Goldstein shooting people praying at Hebron mosque because they were fanatic enough to pray there Well let me tell you that you said it taking the land back yes it belongs back to its Palestinian owners and they already took back part of it that is Gaza with Qassam missiles as did Lebanon took back the south with Katyousha I think you better start caring what others think so that they get their rights through negotiations not rockets and missiles Doesn?t this sound more civilized eh?

It a pity how you treat God as a real estate or worldly king agent selling or giving away land and property to certain group of people. I don?t know if you studied history, but arrogance of power and even power itself has never been a lasting thing and your UK mandate on Palestine is just an example for the sun sets on your great country since a long time. Does it help to remind you of the names of ships that brought Jews to occupy this land and victimize its indigenous owners? Or may be it would be helpful for you to go back and listen to the world nations what they say at the UN resolutions and Geneva Convention. Believe me this would help you a lot

Thanks for reminding me..It was Israel who ripped up the peace treaty where Egypt, Syria et al recognized our right to exist and have our southern port open to the world throught the Tiran Straits and we closed them off to isolate Egypt. This was a treasonous thing to due in light of the efforts of our friendly neigbors Egypt and Syria to live with us in some form or fashion. It is sad the the only Arab country who (at least clandestinely accepted our existence) was drawn into the war. That turned the Palestinian problem into our problem when until then it was only other Arabs who screwed them.

By attacking Egypt Israel indeed forced Hussein into the war.

There is a certain sort of Arab who glories in the destruction of a Temple of a national people by an imperial powers (Babylon and Rome). It could be said that Moslem Berbers, Copts, and those converted Jews and Christians of Palestine, Phoenicians and Arameanns and Amorites of Syria/Mesopotamia have adopted the identity of those of Arabia who subjected them. Now without any identity, but of the state and Islam, have no national culture of their own. Thus the jealousy and hatred of Jews. It happened in Europe too, in both imperial Christian and nation state on the rise eras. It's a phase the region is going through.

The fact that the Israeli army in a war of aggression (some still believe the propaganda that it was a pre-emptive attack in '67) kicked out the Jordanians does not give Israel the right to claim East-Jerusalem.

East Jerusalem is not a part of your country. You may very well believe that, but in the end it is a purely Israeli legal fiction.

"It is ours." not according to international law. "It is ours because it is God given to us (us=Jews)." That must be a joke, because there is no god. "It is ours because it was God given to us to worship Him in his Temple." See previous reply. "All who came afterward (Muslim, Christians) are hitchhiking on our teachings, so be polite and humbly accept the free-to-all-religions-access provided by the Israeli Government." And this is the biggest joke... Let the Israeli Government first accept that all man are created equal, and have the same rights.

History and logic tells me that all Israeli appropriations and annexations outside of the green line are illegal. History tells me that racists in the end will lose. Logic tells me that if Israel ever wants peace, it has to stop putting forward these ridiculous claims on land not belonging to Israel. Girl Scouts are of course always welcome, if they bring cookies.

Jews will want the Old Jewish quarter where they lived in 1948 and some nuetral or bi-lateral regime for the Mount. Whether a united city could have a blunt ethnic/citizenship divide is another matter. The idea of East/Old City Jerusalem and West Bank ethnically cleared of Jews is unthinkable way to any meaninglful co-existence. Such nihilism towards Jews of Palestinians undermines the hopes of Arabs in Israel for justice in their nation state. #154 Quite correct, Jews survived via religious and family community continuance in diaspora, they built a nation via building the tenets for inclusion - public law keeping by non Jews. And yes, for various reasons, most Palestinians are fellow northern semites (who are simply of the language and religion out of the south - Arabia).

The oldest city in Canaan is Jericho. When the Abraham of Ur who comes to Canaan via a period at Haran arrives, there is contact with a Melchi-zadok of Salem. Here is the story of hearing from "God" that human sacrifice is wrong for those with faith in God. The bible associates Jebusi with an Urusalim. Ur of Abraham + Salem. There is evidence c1360-50BCE of the Urusalim King's contact with the Egyptian Pharoah Akhenaton. The complaint to do with Habiru (these Semites migrated to Canaan a century earlier - one may see them perhaps, as those who became manservants of Abraham) who were villagers of Canaan by this time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jerusalem

You are talking like muslem fanatic which they hate a jews .The way you expelained is like no body is not real owner of any land.Turek solen fron greek and kurds and armanians and romans.British stolen from irish and welz and scatish and romans.Jordan from iraq.Quwait from iraq.lebenon from syriah .Sudan from egypt and ....and ...and since 3000 years ago this land was belong to jews.In 1948 state of israel restablished .Since that time the arabs nations 4 time attacked the jewish state but they been defeated by israeli army.Know we owned.i do not care what do you think or the other people.you like it or you dont no body can take it back

I am interested Hala if you would accept Israel within the 1967 borders with an independent Palestine next to it in the West Bank and Gaza. It is hard to determine positions of people in this forum with all of the extra rhetoric flying. It seems to be a much different situation than what we have in NZ.

Yes, many people in this world have suffered at the hands of power-mad idiots, like the one currently in Iran (there is one in each generation, i t seems). So what is your point? That the one I am affected by becasue a large part of my family were annihilated just because they were Jews is the "least important?" Well, to me it is very important and not in relation to anything else. Obviously you are lucky enough not to have been affected such a thing, so feel fre to tell people what they should abd shouldn't feel! In the meantime the Jews are flourishing, being educated, winning internationl prizes for hard work and their contribution to the modern world. That is the best revenge and the best healer. We've been doing it for 5000 years and will do it again - no matter what you say.

Hala: I can assure you that I did not steal Aotearoa, 'the land of the long white cloud' from myself as I am Maori. It is the rain that keeps our country so beautiful. It is also summer here and now is not the time to see Dearborn. Thank you for the invitation. You are also welcome in Aotearoa. Hakka

Palestinian Prince, you speak the truth so eloquently, thank you. For all those who claim that the land was deserted and waiting for Israel to be reestablished, I tell them to stop quoting that tired Mark Twain chestnut and look at the lithographs and water colors of such artists as Charles Wilson ("Picturesque Palestine," 1882) and David Roberts, famous for his sketches, water-colors and lithographs of late Ottoman Palestine. The colonial powers of the West were already salivating for land that would soon be available given the decadence of the Turkish empire. And you know the rest of the sad story, the Balfour Declaration et al. I encourage the Bible-thumpers to read works written by eye-witnesses to the pre-1948 situation, including Jabotinsky's "The Iron Wall" (1923). After all, the Old Testament began to be written about 700BC, purporting to relate events that had taken place over 1,000 years before. And for which there is scarcely any archaeological evidence.

Dear Dutch, Israelis have reached the compromise with Pals and more importantly with themselves. You remember back in 2000 when Arafat was ordered to walk away. Sharon got tired and started implementing that agreement unilaterally with the wall. But the end result is supposed to be the same. What else is needed? The land, the state, the free society with no occupation, right? But wait, here come the moderates and their supporters claiming J?lem and right of return. The end result-good by Israel. Hamas motto is too harsh and not politically correct so we will kill you softly with our tongue. Speaking of creating the wounds and parading them in front of the world. There was a very good post about the poker gambler. I suggest you read it, in nutshell that is what the Pals wound is today. Whether created by themselves or done to them by their Arab brothers, makes no difference anymore.

Wake up, see the light! Judaism is but one of the religions of the world. How dare you insult the rest of us! We are all children of God, not just a tiny tribe of marauders who take pride in having fled Canaan during a famine, then returning after things got tough in Egypt, meanwhile, the industrious Canaanites, who did not flee to Egypt, had created a land of "milk and honey" which the Hebrew refugees from Egypt then stole from the Canaanites by wholesale slaughter. Shame on you! What kind of example is that? Where is the justice? Christ did not preach that one nation alone is favored by God, and I and millions of others agree. He was crucified in Jerusalem, and the former capital of the Jebusites, which David stole, is now the pilgrimage site of the followers of the Christ, who came to love all mankind, not just Jews.

Michael N, Thank you for your great posts! What a wonderful perspective you add to this never ending struggle for Israeli dominence over Jerusalem. It isn't fair or just as you demonstrated so well in your posts. Please write often and share more with us. Thanks, Dutch

Hakka: and we hear that the Kiwis sit around getting drunk all day while the rain just pours and pours. Although I would not mind visiting the land stolen from the Maoris. From the Hercules and Xena series, it looks quite spectacular. Take what you hear about Dearborn "cum grano salis," and see it with your own Kiwi eyes. True, it was a dump until the Arabs started renovating it, now it is a lovely, bustling neighborhood with cafes open until 11PM, just like in Europe, the streets are clean and filled with flowers, the restaurants serve the best hummus, sheesh kafta, falafel, fatoosh, etc. There is a gorgeous mosque between the St. Clement Okhridski Macedonian-Bulgarian church and the St. Sarkis Armenian Apostolic church. The minarets and dome shine brilliantly in the sun. There is a splendid mansion and forest and river for the public to visit, left by Henry Ford. There is the world famous Greenfield Village, with the museums and rides and theatre...See for yourself!

All these self righteous proclomations about "Gods word". I wasn't aware that He ever wrote anything at all. The words supposedly written by God (what language does he write in) were written by Jewish tribes, as ignorant and superstious as everybody else was thousands of years ago. God didn't give the Jews anything, Jewish writers I suppose took dictation from above. If that silly argument is all you have then you're right there with the Mullas and the Bible thumping "religious" right in the U.S. A bunch of nuts that use Gods name to commit atrocities...gee, that's a new idea. Would Hitlers Jewish blood qualify him for your racist "right of return". He would have made an excellent Israeli. Adolf and Ariel, brothers to the bone.

It is ours. It is ours because it is God given to us (us=Jews). It is ours because it was God given to us to worship Him in his Temple. All who came afterward (Muslim, Christians) are hitchhiking on our teachings, so be polite and humbly accept the free-to-all-religions-access provided by the Israeli Government. No other government before it allowed free-access and self-rule inside religious establishments (want examples? see access to the Kotel aka The Western Wall). All this talk about Palestinian rights (Khalid, Dutch, Sweed, Irish, Aussie, etc.) is just talk, nonsense threading of words - there is no Palestinian people and there is no rights; those calling themselves Palestinians are Arab invaders who moved to the Land of Israel after the Jews started developing it. All of a sudden they have rusted keys and family pictures - horse feathers - you can buy those for pennies at the flea market and attach a story to each. Now these invaders and land thieves have the gull to claim the L

Tony, I think the best way to reduce suicide bombing is to take away the reasons for it. People don't get up one morning and decide to become suidice bombers. There are under lying causes. Israel's problem is that it has constantly avoided addressing those under lying causes. Thus its security measures are inadequate as they only provide a bandaid effect. When Israel decides to treat the wound it will eventually be able to remove the bandaid. Thus Israel needs to make those "painful choices" and withdraw from the territories and stop its fanatical expansion of settlements. Under International law no court in the world can make them legal anyhow. Thus they need to reach a compromise with the Palestinians and go on from there! Dutch

"I have yet to see any Muslims claiming Dearborn, Michigan" From what we hear in NZ, who would want it?

"yours, in my opinion anyway, was one of the least severe" hollingsworth So mate you don't believe that the holocaust was severe? It was the only one in history that was scientifically set up to eradicate an entire people. The memory of my grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins tells me it was extremely severe! Your attitude is pathetic! It is bacause of that that we now say NEVER AGAIN! YOU AND YOUR ILK CAN NEVER BE TRUSTED.

The Arab League initiated the war over Jerusalem. The Palestinians continue to tell themselves that the final inevitable victory will be theirs. Hot news flash: the Great Arab Army isn't coming, the population bomb is another Arafat story which is going nowhere, and the good old days when your grandparents were agricultural slaves are over.

I'm curious, the Israelis call the area where in the REAL world Al Aqsa Mosque, Haram al Sharif, and the Holy Seplicure stand Temple Mount? Where is this Temple? Is it a figment of Israel's imagination? If the Israelis were as religious as they claim the reason why they want to hold on to all of Jerusalem, then they should just wait for Divine intervention as their religion told them, and wait for God to reform this Third Temple. Until then, aren't they supposed to be in exile? The Palestinians have 2 sites compared to one for Israel. Israel can take the Weiling wall and westward, but the MOsque and CHurch are Palestinian. God bless the Palestinian birthrate! Bizrat Hashem we'll double the Israeli population. My bad, was it the Arabs fault the Jews were expelled by the Romans 2000 YEARS ago? Give me a break.

Yes, Jerusalem has historical and religious significanse for the Jews but not to the exclusionn of other histories and at the expense of non Jews who had lived there for many generations. Shragai proposes to reinvent Jewish culture and actualize memories by kicking non Jews out from Jerusalem and the entire land west of the Jordan. He is a charlatan- Jewish culture is not a product of the Land of Israel. It is not Israelite or even Judahite. It is in the main post Biblical, Rabbinical and thruth be told a product of interaction with the Gentile world. The culture of Today's Israel is not Jewish but Israeli- a Mediterraenean composite with European and Oriental influences. Shragai is deluding himself about creating a Jewish Jerusalem as a cultural center of Israel- the (secular)Israelis are leaving the place in droves.

Nadav Shragai epitomizes the falacies inherent in goading to collective national memories. Memories are a euphemism for myths- fabricated histories in the service of nationalism. Those who wrote the Bible stories, who collected, redacted and canonized them succeeded in creating a seamless continuity between the 'heathen' Israelites and the monotheistic, intolerant and xenophobic Judahites. The legacy of the latter continued thru the Hasmonean dynasty which controlled the political and religious life in Judah. Jerusalem was their capital, but not the capital of the Israelites. With the fall of Judah and the emergence of Christianity, Judaism as we know it today was developed outside Jerusalem and outside Palestine. Jerusalem was but a snapshot in the history of the Jews and Judaism. Jewish culture flourishd outside Palestine- In Babylon, Alexandria, Worms, Mainz and Spier, in Al Andalus, Vilnius, Berlin, Odessa and New york. (to be continued)

'an east jerusalem without jewish settlers' is an east jerusalem with jews o.k. ? Thank you for giving us west jerusalem....that is very nice of you. How about Palestinians will get east jerusalem when the jews get western Mecca ?

"Jerusalem is better off under Israeli sovereignty--not as an Islamic Waqf" Jeff, Jerusalem is better off recognizing and respecting the lawful and just rights of all its religious groups not just applying the whims of its own laws onto others. Remember, sharing is caring and its what the world expects of Israel and will demand if it doesn't deliver. Trust me on this. Israel will not be tolerated bullying others. It's not fair. Dutch P.S. Also, remember Israel wouldn't exist today if the people of the world had not acted. And it will act again to straighten it out, if necessary.

Imagine a gambler at a poker table. He fancies his luck and plays with the intention of bankrupting his opponenet. He loses. He continues to play, trying bullying and bluffing. He loses again. The stakes get higher. He plays once more, as he gets more desperate he employs even more doubious tactics, bringing in his friend and supporters... but he loses again. The more he plays, the more he loses, a real vicious circle. By now he realizes his losses are heavy and his pride badly damaged. So he goes around blaming everybody else around him for his predicament. He now realizes that he will never ever regain some of his losses. So he says "hey, lets go back to 1948 borders, give me my money back, and we'll forget about what I was supposed to win in the first place"

Assyrian, even according to the Old Testament, the Jebusites had founded Urusalim. There is historical verification for the existence of that people and their inhabiting Jerusalem circa 1250BC in the reign of the Pharaoh Akhenaten according to the correspondence between the king of Urusalim and Egypt. He begs for protection against the marauding bands of Khabiru (Hebrews?). Certainly, king David is credited with capturing Urusalim, with its architectural splendor and water system. However, he is recorded as not having exiled the Jebusites but allowing them to coexist with the Hebrews as equals. Too bad that the same generosity does not exist today.

Baruch, I believe, with all other rational beings, that anyone should be able to live anywhere in the world. African-Americans had to fight for their rights to do so for many hard years. Why should Arabs have to fight for the right to live where they have lived for millennia? The Jews were never the only ethnic group living in the Holy Land. Think of the Nabataeans, Canaanites, Hivites, Jebusites, Philistines, Samaritans and Idumeans. And even though you might not be a fan of the New Testament, read 2, 12 of the Acts of the Apostles, where the description of the Pentecost miracle of tongues includes a list of all the peoples residing in Jerusalem, Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, and...ARABIANS! And that is the gospel truth.

Chanah, Your ethnocentric world view is breathtaking. You do realize that there were several 'holocausts' during the 20th century, among which yours, in my opinion anyway, was one of the least severe. I remind you of 5 to 8 million Ukranians (mostly Catholics) deliberately starved to death by the Soviets in the early 30s. I remind you of another 10 million killed in Soviet gulags. I remind you of two million Christian Armenians persecuted to death by the Turks earlier in that century. I remind you of 2.5 million Cambodians systematically driven from their homes and slaughtered in 1976 by Pol Pot. I remind you of the continuing persecution of Christians in Sudan, East Timor and Indonesia under Muslim sponsorship. I could go on and on. I'm personally sick and tired of hearing about your Shoah.

So Muslims erect a mosque secretly so that they might claim the region around said mosque as theirs. Despite that caveat, I have yet to see any Muslims claiming Dearborn, Michigan, site of more than one mosque. And yet the Jews built a temple thousands of years ago and, even though the temple is no longer standing, still claim the city of Jerusalem as theirs. Such chutzpah.

"Finally, sharing is security! That`s how we all have come to know and enjoy peace in the free world." Yea Dutch. Sure. Just ask the Christians in Lebanon! They got the shaft from the Muslims there for sharing.

I am with the right of Israel to exist with negociated permanent borders and West Jerusalem as its "eternal" capital. BUT whether Jerusalem will be re-divided or will become an open city, capital of 2 states, one thing is clear for us Palestinians and should be clear for Israelis: there WILL NOT be peace in this land without East Jerusalem as capital of the future Palestinian state, an East Jerusalem without Jewish settlers. No matter how long it takes to reach that goal, there will be no peace without an independent and soverign East Jerusalem.

Howdy Dutch; For your information, sharing does not equal security. Besides, Israel already "shares" Jerusalem with members of all faiths in accordance with a law passed in 1980 which states (in part): "3. The Holy Places shall be protected from desecration and any other violation and from anything likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the different religions to the places sacred to them or their feelings towards those places." The only proviso is that everybody obeys Israeli law. Israel has not adopted Mosaic law (which is rather harsh), but the Palestinians wish to impose Sharia law which goes back to the somewhat-less-than-civilized rules of the 7th Century. Jerusalem is better off under Israeli sovereignty--not as an Islamic Waqf.

Dear Dutch, Jeff had asked you to share your concern specifically on ISRAELI security, not free world. There is no other nation that sends suicide bombers uppon other nations and askes them to share their space. So Dutch again, not the free world, specifically ISRAELI security. I know you are mostly concerned with free world, but please try to concentrate on this small taks at hand.

Arabs may have been there for 2,000 years Dutch, only because the Jews were forced out of their homeland and scattered across the world. Well guess what?? The original owners of the land are back, and the Arabs don't like it...well boo hoo!! Get used to it.

Howdy S; I used to live in Hamstead during my senior year in highschool (1964-65). I loved London. What a fabulous place for an eighteen-year-old kid to explore. They had everything from Pimm's Cups # 1 in the Indian restaurants to the Rosetta Stone in the British Museum. I even witnessed the changing-of-the-guard at Westminster Abby when Sir Winston Churchill was laying-in-State (after playing hooky from school). Do they still have those speed-limit signs for horses on Hamstead Heath? Love it! Only the British could post a sign that reads: "Horses, 5 MPH".

Unless land-locked, the municiple boundries of many modern cities change regularly. The changes are usrally based on growth, economics and demographics. The is nothing devine about imagenary lines drawn up by a city council or a state parlament. Today's modern city DID NOT even EXIST in the time from which the religious draw thier inspiration and justification. There is no validity to the Israeli claim of wanting to subjugate some 200,000+ Palestinians who, in reality, do exist in occupied al-Quds.

THE WALLED CITY ... also called the "Old" City, in its entirity, IS the 3rd Jewish Temple and therefore is Isreal's, ubdisputedly. However, consider that God also chose His city, His Temple, to be the convergence point for all 3 of His religions. Accomidation must be for all of His children. All of His existing Shrines and houses of worship must be repected even if that means establishing a Trinity Commission to oversee His wishes.

Baruch, I am with you 100%, thanks for your words.

"All this talk of 'sharing" Jerusalem is meaningless unless you can ensure security. Besides, Israel has not taken or stolen any land from any Palestinian living in East Jerusalem. Israel has annexed the place, but that is a matter of sovereignty and has nothing to do with private ownership of land or property. In other words, East Jerusalem is under Israeli law and subject to the jurisdiction of the Israeli High Court. Who cares what other world courts think? They do not have jurisdiction over Jerusalem." Liz and Jeff, You both deny fundamental aspects of the Palestinian claim. Yes, I agree the Jews at one time occupied Jerusalem but so did many other religious groups. Thus for the Jews to claim sole sovereignty of Jerusalem is unfair and not in tune with the reality. In addition, the Arabs have inherited Jerusalem for the last two thousand years. Hence, who are the Israeli upstarts to move into town after 2,000 years and demand exclusive ownership and rights? And Jeff, if you want to throw Israeli law at me--I will throw Islamic law right back at you! Finally, sharing is security! That's how we all have come to know and enjoy peace in the free world. We share our space and resources and our borders are opened for the most part. We certainly don't bar a particular group and shouldn't like Israel does. Thus I see as the main source of this conflict Israel's refusal to share and its upstart attitude towards the lawful and just rights of the indigenous people of Palestine. Thank you, Dutch

Who lived in that Land first?

"so we Muslims intentionally build mosques in the middle of nowhere so that eventually we will be drawn to it and achieve a demographic victory? We can move anywhere we please in the US and a mosque is not a prequisite. It may just seem like a flood of Muslims since you are so scared of us." I didn't say that. You build exactly on a spot that is holy to others when you have the power to do so, even though there is plenty of land. That's the only reason that Al Aqsa and the Dome are on Har HaBayit. You want to snuff out Jewish association with the Temple. I don't believe Mohammed ever was in Jerusalem. You drove the Zoroastrians out of all their temples in Persia, and then forced them to be Moslems. You took over that huge temple site in India which is now a point of violent contention between Hindus and Moslems, and you wanted that church site in Nazareth. It's an insidious plan to make everyone forget their own roots, by replacing their reality with your false reality

This may seem total anathema and a bit stupid to many Jews posting in this talkback but maybe the best solution at least in Jerusalem would be to encourage,facilitate and promote conversion to Judaism of the local Arab population. Mass conversion was practiced before in ancient Israel when many Caananites and their familes adopted Judaism.. Many Arabs in Israel/Palestine are actually Mustarabim or Jews converted over the centuries to the predomimant Islamic or Christian faiths in the Land of Israel at the time. What suited Judaism in Diaspora i.e. preserving the faith and the community practicing it and avoiding assimilation isn't necessarily suitable in the Land of Israel. This must be a battle over hearts and minds rather than preserving our "biological purity" Surrounding ourselves with walls both phyiscal and mental is not going to work for ever and since we suffered from being excluded and persecuted in Dispersion we must not impose the same thing on other people.

these days no one really cares about the UN or their resolutions. everyone in the world knows that its a corrupt organization with a record of scams and crimes. stop posting their bs resolutions because it has no effect on any of us.

"very few Palestinians support the redivision of Jerusalem. Israelis should be able to freely access East Jerusalem (the future capital of Palestine) and Palestinians should have free access to West Jerusalem, the capital of Israel" Your post is unusually conciliatory Khalid.You accept at least that Israel can exist and have a capital of its own:West Jerusalem. If real peace can be achieved meaning stopping violence altogether whether at state or individual level Israelis may accept such proposals.The religious and nationalist fundamentalists on both sides will reject this for sure but who should prevail? The war mongering fanatics on both sides or the peace loving ordinary Israelis and Palestinians?

Hi Nat I had forgotten about the London transport and the suicide bombers! When you mentioned the Picadilly and the Northern Line,I now see what you meant! On that day I was saved it seems, because I didn't go to London from where I am at present and of course I would have been right in the middle of it.Somebody UP THERE LOVES ME I SUPPOSE Although I am not worthy...

"No crimes are being committed against the "Palestinians" because the "Palestinians" do not exist sa a people." Oh were it so easy to eliminate an entire population with such words ... not that it's never been tried before.

Just think of the following scenario: Andre is born in Paris out of English parents. Allthough Andre lives in Paris and is a Frenche citizen he feels more an Englishmen. England declares war to France wanting to wipe France off the map. While the War is going on Andre demands from the Frenche authorities, that he and everone alike him, should be allowed to vote in favor for an English terror/political group to take over part of Paris. How do you think the authorities in France would react?...

Of course Jews have the right to Jerusalem... and of course Palestinians have the right to Jerusalem. This symbiosis is at the core of the entire dispute. Share it, or divide it, but recognize that the realty has two legitimate heirs. Failurre to recognize this only perpetuates the conflict and causes national chauvinism to override legitimate and compassionate recognition of the other.

Howdy Dutch; How do you propose to ensure security for the city of Jerusalem? What you suggest would mean that suicide bombers could just walk across the street and blow themselves up anywhere. Palestinian religious fanatics could go up to the Temple Mount and throw rocks and bricks on top of the heads of Jews praying at the Western Wall down below. All this talk of "sharing" Jerusalem is meaningless unless you can ensure security. Besides, Israel has not taken or stolen any land from any Palestinian living in East Jerusalem. Israel has annexed the place, but that is a matter of sovereignty and has nothing to do with private ownership of land or property. In other words, East Jerusalem is under Israeli law and subject to the juristiction of the Israeli High Court. Who cares what other world courts think? They do not have juristiction over Jerusalem. As long as the Israeli flag flies over the post office, everything will be fine which is more than can say for certain other flag

lol Now,now,then let us not overdo it shall we? Near enough it is nigh on 4000/5000 years that's it.I don't need any further sarcasms either,we have sufficient detractor here without you putting your oar in,thank you. Just take a good book and educate yourself,it will put you in the picture.Better still read the MOST FAMOUS AND MOST READ BOOK IN THE WHOLE WORLD "THE HOLY BIBLE" If you prefer another book feel free providing it is a non biased one.One that tells it like it is without any hidden agenda okay?

Wafa, you are correct. Though I do not believe that christians were children of the book. History has been rewritten, taken out of context,and take out of the time. I will tel you,Jews have never had a problem with Arabs (Muslims). History bshows a strong desire on the part of Jews to gain the acceptance of the older blood brother. Please study the links at: http://truth-speak.net also: http://tellthechildrenthetruth.com the Arab and Jews is fighting the same enemie. Yest has been diablolically pit agaisnt each other. The solution is what the west has fought against, the REUNIFICATION OF THE SONS OF ABRAHAM!

What is behind Israel's existence today is that no longer are Jews prepared to live at the mercy of those wishing to destroy them. We are no longer victims - get that into your thick skull. There are those still alive today who lost entire families in WW2 (not in battle, mind you) and who are still living with the trauma and the scars. Far be it from you to judge them. Right, now that that is out of the way, all that remains for me to say is that you can stick it up your pipe and smoke it. Nothing more you can do.

I think all arabs should be explled from the land of Israel to jorden--lets be realistic plese

As I read some of the latest exchanges here I find myself writing again. Both The Palestinians and the Jews of Israel have legitimate claim due to their roots, religion and heritage to the same land in dispute. I think it is important that both sides understand and appreciate the fact that no one has exclusive rights to this rather tiny piece of land smaller than the state of Delaware in the US. No one has the moral right however to take by force and displace the inhabitants. I am saying that a solution to the conflict must be found without alienating anyone. Ownership and deeds must be respected if we are to be a democratic free state. Despite the chaos we must live in peace and harmony. We will never be able to live the normal life for which all is entitled, in this region, as long as this dispute continues. The conflict will not be resolved by military action or armed struggle. We have been witness to the fact that these actions only brought destruction and suffering to all inhabitants on both sides of the fence.

Now that you are seated after your standing ovation, you will hear me out. Yes, the Jews have certainly been victims throughout the ages - of people like you, of kings and leaders who have used and abused, then persecuted and expelled them, ad eventually flagrantly, with the silent apathy of the rest of the world, tried, and nearly succeeded in exterminating them. Now you know all this. The fact is, that DESPITe their history, Jews and Israelis today are educated, hardworking, successful and prosperous members in all societies in which they live. They have not based their existence on hate and revenge (and boy they certainly could!). Their existence is based on the values noted above - which spell LIFE. The world has not been particularly charitable to Jews - yet Jews believe in charity. They were barred from universities in Europe for centuries, but fill their halls today. Nothing victim-like about Jewish behaviour. (con't)

Hello Ronnie It was so cute reading your post and with an added Cocney Accent was it? Sorry but you are barking up the wrong tree. I am neither a Londoner nor from White Chapel sorry to say.I am sort of a citizen of the world,having lived in so many different countries--especially in the Far-East.Even those places have changed beyond recognition.On the subject of London. Do you know something,seriously I'm sure you wouldn't want to live in any part of inner London.Not these days nor even some of the suburbs.I have relatives who live in Muswell Hill.Now that's fine and I wouldn't mind a little "Pied a terre" there.The rest can go hang!As someone very close to me used to say: That's not England,it is a bit of foreign land! All you hear is not english but just...The person in question had to commute to London(very hush,hush) and hated it dreadfully. Anyhow as you pointed out we have digressed haven't we? We will have to set the record straight and stick to the subject next...

G-D's WORD describes not only the Jewish Diaspora as a result of sin against G-D and his WORD where we received double for our sin ( as we should have known better being keepers of the book ) But : Also describes The full restoration of Israel and the Jewish people back to their land promised by G-D as an everlasting , unconditional covenant . ( unconditional means it is not conditional on Israel and the Jewish people having to do anything for the covenant to be fulfilled ) in the latter days , where we will eventually receive DOUBLE BLESSINGS . Not that we deserve this but for G-D's amazing grace , mercy , hessed and his guarantee to fulfill his WORD to the letter . Every prophecy in G-D's WORD has been fulfilled - The few remaining will also be fulfilled to the letter . The existance of Israel , a nation for jews , governed by Jews with Jerusalem as its eternal undivided capital fulfills the WORD of G-D to the letter . The WORD of G-D is truth - Let us believe G-D and his WORD

Dutch....all the propaganda and hatred in the world wont change the fact that without the Jews returning to Israel there would be no such thing today as Palestinians. There never was any such thing as a distinct Palestinian arab identity, culture, language, dialect, food, history etc until the Jews came back in large numbers to Israel. The same is not true for example of the Druze or Kurds who have far greater claims to separate statehood than the "Pals".

I believe that the Jews have historical roots in the land. That is not something widely accepted by most Palestinians and maybe most Arabs. I see that as a problem preventing segments of the Palestinians population from appreciating all sides of the conflict. On the Israeli side there are perhaps equal numbers of those denying any rights to the land for the Palestinians. I believe this mind set has led us to continuation of the occupation and policies usurping the Palestinians from their inalienable rights their homes and land. We in Israel can?t have our cake and eat it too. We can not claim exclusive rights to ourselves based on our roots in the land dating back thousands of years ago at the same time deny the rights of those who left the land a little over fifty years ago. Mr. Shragai would have us annex more land build more settlements and erect more obstacles to peace. He is advocating more of the policies which brought nothing but destruction and suffering to both communities. I believe that the majority of Israelis and Palestinians want peace. Unfortunately there are segments on both sides who would rather prolong the struggle. As to the question of Jerusalem, I don?t see why it is necessary for either side to have exclusive rights. I can?t see why the Israelis want to build settlements in the heart of a Palestinian territory when the Negev and Galilee are so sparsely populated. If this is not a policy of expansionism then God did not make little green apples. The question over which Mr. Shragai apparently lost no sleep, is who has ownership of this land he is proposing to take for free?

I would like to thank David for attempting to teach us Palestinians morality. I just hope his morality ala Israel does not include racism, aparthied and descrimination against people for their religion. if this is the morality which he wants to teach Palestinians (because this is the only morality Israel knows), then I say let Palestine remain immoral. It is a problem to do something immoral, and know it is immoral, but more serious to do something immoral and not know it is so, that it called amorality, or lack of morality, which is not only a problem but is a dangerous, and border line psychotic.

" the law of the jungle" at last you have it nadir.now you are at home.

this is not wictimhood, it is the truth. we did give you our best scientists, our best artists, our best tech guys, our best economists - as the matter of fact modern civilization is 50% jewish- and what we got in return? blood, blood, murder, pogroms, that's all. enough is enough.

your highly amusing use of "fundamental rights" would be long remembered. the fundamental rights of the thousands of iraqis killed in suicide bombings or perhaps the fundamental rights of women in honour killings. or perhaps the rights of toturers or despots or thugs and thieves?

i am interested to see nadir resort to "civilised behaviour" as a crutch. surely not something middle-easterners usually point to? nadir suicide bombers are more in your line. and speaking of lines where is it to be next?the piccadilly or northern lines?

Meaning Dutch - that they are simply Arabs, whose decendents came from the surrounding countries. There is no such thing as a "Palestinian" they are just Arabs...Arabs that are living on Jewish land.

Let me remind you that the Western Wall was out of bounds to Jews from 1948-1967 -what was your pretext then? The Palestinians destroyed Joseph?s Tomb. What was your pretext then? It is your terrorism that has made it necessary to impose these restrictions to access the mosque. They did not exist before 2001.

If you mean that the jews have a right to return to thier own country (Israel) (since they were ther FIRST) then yes. Ohhhhh you mean the ARABS ... well they arent from Israel/Palestine - where do you propose to put them? (HINT JORDAN). Anything is "possible" as you call it .. why dont the Native Americans have a right of return in Canada and the US? Maybe the Germans had a "right of return" in Austria (since it was once ONE empire). Maybe you'de like to give the Italians (romans) the "right of return" to take over 2/3 of the middle east. Exchange? sure - we will send the 23 other arabs countries OUR arabs and they can send US thier Jews (the last few they havent expelled). See - once you think positivly nothing is impossible!

"sraeli archaeologists have been excavating feverishly underneath Haram Ash-Sharif (aka Temple Mount). To date, they have found no proof of any connection with Solomon`s Temple." I wonder where you got this beaut - obviously from a site that wishes to discredit Jewish history and it's claim to Jeruselem - a beautiful illustration of the point I apparently have now succeeded in making. You should indulge in some serious reading of the real story, using impartial sources if you will. "This of course is done under the false pretext of security." Considering the Palestinians track record, I don't think this at all is a false pretext. Moslem hailing stones and rocks onto Jewish worshipers at the Western Wall is nothing to scoff at. Making sure that only those Palestinians who do not represent a security risk is the way to go - rather be safe than sorry. All Moslems citizens of Israel can pray freely at the mosque whenever they want.con't

Descendants of Ismael and the Israelits were already devided long before Jesus and christians came in this world. So I think you are wrong. Read Genesis and Exodus. Jews don't believe in the NT but christians do. Muslims mostly believe that the Koran is the last will of God. Everyone who read the NT carefully is able to know that true disciples of Jesus were not expected to be in politics, wars and other works of the ruler of this world: Satan in the view of the NT. Real christians are expected to go out of this world as much as possible, just doing what God told them to do, and by bringing the message of Jesus all over this world. Read Matthew, especially chapters 1 till 8 and 23, 24 and you can know that christians often think they are good christians even when the are not. Same goes for many other believers.

I dont consider the bible history but rather a set of metaphors brought forward by great Rabbis. And to be honest the killing of the first born is a bit difficult for me to take if it were history.

so you are now an occupier of Indian land. Tell me what rights you have to be in USA....you and your fellow Americans are what....living on stolen land, maintaining apartheid reservations for the true owners of the land ?

to a man of limited intellect yours is an interesting question..but the fact that there is indeed a known time frame makes the question, in this context, irrelevant. Like.... what would I do if i had a brother, well if you dont stop wasting your time thinking about it. You are clearly intellectually challenged, Jews have lived in Israel continuously.. only the numbers have fluctuated.....so what is yr point ? And where are you from and what rights do you have to be where you are ?

Way before the Romans conquered England,there was a small tribe of Jews that attacked Southern England,actually Hove near Brighton. They set up shop in Stanmore making jewelery and shmutters. Last wednesday while digging under Stanmore Station,some archeologists found the remains of three dresses that were deemed to be from circa 18000 years before Stonehenge. They were 3 styles that were 'knocked off' from dresses from 18003 years ago. This basically is why the Jews of Stanmore have taken Stanmore proper while several are looking at the possibility of Eretz Stanmore. Apparently there is one Palestinian family living in Stanmore,disputing the whole thing. The thing I want to know is whee they Tottenham supporters or not...no no no not the Palestinians.

"My view: Let us keep the Old City undivided, and under Israeli control, so that ancient Jerusalem appears as in the psalm. But please divide the rest for the sake of peace." - Ben Gurion Sounds fine to me.

Your quotes: Each and every settlement built in East Jerusalem since 1967 will have to be dismantled or repopulated with Palestinian refugees from Lebanon or Syira or Jordan. Palestinians should have free access to West Jerusalem, the capital of Israel. This is what I call true peace. You know what the problems with your statements are, Khalid? You and everyone know what the free access from E. J?lem infused by refugees from Lebanon, Syria and so on, to the W. J?lem means. But this is where the moderate Pals and their supporters get off of the train and the train continues with defenseless Israel facing the new, improved militants. Does not sound like the peace conditions to me. More like increased bloodshed revamping into the massacres. Time to come up with the better lies, Khalid or get off of the train now.

S, the thrust of your argument is that Islam and muslims have stagnated, therefore the jews have the right to take their property and deprive them of sovereignty over their lands and holy places. Even if that were to be the case, it is a view based not on any conventional system of civilised behaviour, but on the law of the jungle. You cannot take away ownership and fundamental rights from a people, simply because you happen not to like them.

who has the greater right ? the white european to "texas" the jew to jerusalem

Why the ifs and buts. If elephant had ears etc. The facts are ....... and that's enough.

Nadir My first post to you didn't come out only the addendum.It is of no conswquence,perhaps it will come out soon. On your spurious notion of the Temple in Jerusalem:How wrong can you be! For goodness sake you have a huge wall that is still standing there for all to see.How can deny this obvious fact. But we'll leave it for now.We'll debate on the security subject.If it wasn't for the security maintained by the Israeli forces it would be chaos there.How else do they have the thousands of Christian pilgrims who visit their Holy Sites regularely and are free and at peace.Remember and don't twist the truth about the Muslims who not only go to their Mosques continually but also DAILY Without fear. It is so typical of your lot to always twist and turn when it suits you and you deny the fact that YES,YES It is for security and if not no one would be allowed to go there. No more lessons just get a reliable history book which is unbiased and read it carefully.

Apart from Jerusalem this is another big one. I have no answer for this at the moment.Its really a difficult matter.But one thing SHOULD happen.We should take at least responsibility for the truth. An answer,well thats more difficult but better to discuss possible positive things than negative. Exchange comes to mind when I think about this.

to keep hizbollah at bay.this time of course arms only.the sunnis would be armed through saudia arabia. the druze should also be sold arms from israel hizbollah would be kept busy.very busy.

Hey John, perhaps some Italians will claim your home and land one day, if they start reading their history books, where it says that the Romans owned your land many years ago ! How about that uh ? Or perhaps some Germans will claim it, because their fore fathers once lived in the same spot you live now?! how about that John? Please read the proper history books to get your facts straight !

hizbollah has made so many enemies among the lebanese they must now be truly vulnerable to deep israeli intelligence penetration. they have never been so weak.

Since not having a calendar tht goes back that far hinders your thinking, Ill help you out. 1)theres a CONTINOUS presence in Israel - its not 2000 years ago then one day we "showed up." 2) history describes, quite well the constant conquering of Israel by other nations - we didnt leave on our own. we were FORCED out 3) The oh so fair (no pun) UN, the british white papers ect GAVE it back to us (the arabs said no)(23 countries isnt enough they MUST have ours) 4)They lost 5 wars - when you LOOSE - you DONT get what you were fighting for. The only people this doesnt seem to apply to is Israel/the Jews. For them - no matter what argument you use - even if you use ALL of them - its just too bad, right ?

Since in the past, the Jews got short changed by most of it, right? That would suite you and the other Jew haters well, wouldnt it? Like Sully, you'de like to "forget" Jewish history, or that there even ARE Jews, right? Go, eat, be merry, while the Jews again suffer under the crushing blows of Islam (the religion of headcutters). Which CURRENT arab country are the jews/christians doing well in? UAE? Iraq? Iran? Yemen? We arent interested in old OR new wars - we just want the invaders OUT. Imperialism? Google it if you dont have a dictionary - taking back your own country isnt Imperialism - that would POSSIBLY be the muslim take over of the MIDDLE EAST, no ? (Oh I forgot - when its arabs its different). Al Jazeera is a front for Islamic terror - everyone excpet you and wolf blitzer know that. We the Jews CHOOSE (as you call it)not to give in to the arabs and to take BACK what has always been ours. Now go have some falafel balls, maybe they will make you forget more Jewish history.

What did 'e write about concerning doner? and tell that geezer from Turkey to keep eating doner and not chicken or Turkey. (Ive never 'eard of Doner flu,have you?) What about Gefilte fish flu?????????

Mark, the idea of a united Jerusalem spring out of some mythical ideas about the holy city. The myth sprang out of its cage in 1967, where Israel proceeded to "unite" Jerusalen right after it was taken. There was no real issue then about an independent Palestinian state and the location of its capital. Israel proceeded intuitively with the fulfillment of its myth. I was wondering about the specific origin of the myth of a united Jerusalem. There is a biblical phrase which is often cited (with pleasure): "Jerusalem--built as a city that is bound firmly together" - Psalm 122:3 The verse is in one of the "songs of ascents", describing the impressions of the pilgrim as he sees Jerusalem. Perhaps the meaning of the verse is that, by being surrounded by a wall, Jerusalem appears to be packed together. My view: Let us keep the Old City undivided, and under Israeli control, so that ancient Jerusalem appears as in the psalm. But please divide the rest for the sake of peace.

lol- Ask you boy, Nadir how far to go back. He went back 5000 years!

Palestinians need dignity. They have been trodden on for years by all types of groups. They need to come out of the dark. Actually Jews can help them but are fearful that their brethren in Arab countries will all of a sudden remember those lost cousins and use them (again) this time as a beachead. We have to move forward. This situation is key to the area growing into the land we all know it could be.There has to be more talking,more exchanges and more building of trust.

Chanah, I'm bemused that you should level theaccusation of cynicism against me when, in actual fact, you seem to be a master at the art. Consider this: - Israeli archaeologists have been excavating feverishly underneath Haram Ash-Sharif (aka Temple Mount). To date, they have found no proof of any connection with Solomon's Temple. - On the question of access to religious sites, try selling your version of reality to the millions of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza that have been deprived from access to the Al-Aqsa mosque, the Dome of the Rock and various other muslim and christian places of worship. This of course is done under the false pretext of security. In any event, the question here is not one of efficient administration. Rather, it's a question of sovereignty and ownership. To make my point: if I was able to demonstrate that I am wiser at spending money that you, would that give me the right to take your money? Clearly not!

The followers of your prophet promulgated the religion by force of arms and intimidation. That's what I wanted to emphasize. It has a very violent history and it is unfortunate that it continues to be so today. The crux of the matter is that this religion of yours has stalemated,it hasn't moved forward and has the mentality of the 7th century and are very backward in their thinking. Many of your moderates would love to leave all this behind and move to the 21st century,but are deprived from doing so because of the restrictions of their despotic governments and afraid to voice freely what is wanted and needed. Nadir,I am not a snob what's more I do not reside in London permanently.I mentioned the Westham because I know Hamstead well,and most people do not like to be associated with Westham.That's why I mentioned it.Haven't even been there.So,no offence to the Westhamites how's that?

suppose ancient Israel existed 20,000 years ago and was overrun by someone causing a Jewish diaspora. Would you still say Israel must be recreated and this land is for the Jews for all eternity? Suppose it was even further, such as 50,000 years ago? Please state a demarcation point in years where it is just too far back in time. Thanks.

Oy (and English Oy)you!!! Wot right 'ave you got to be running down West Ham mate????? Dont you know that the Hammers are not Hamas and that you are talking about one of the nicest parts of the East End,mate???????????? Have you never 'eard of Bobby Moore??????? (whos almost as big as Moses aound 'ere mate) And Nadir about the toffs in Golders Green,there AINT no jews left in Golders Green mate,theyve all moved to Stanmore. Enough knocking me country mate (even though I live in Canada) Next you'll be knocking Tottenham and to be honest that is going to take me over the edge,mate! So stop 'aving a go a my previous abode mate and concentrate at the debate at hand. Whether the Doner is better in Ashbourne Grove or Finsbury Park?????? and whether the Blintzes are as good in Stanmore as they were in Whitechapel.

Shalom dear Israeli friends of Turkey! I certainly hope Israel gets the full control of Jerusalem. If it falls into arab hands, they will simply not be able to tend the city as it should be tended for. It would soon decay. Since Jerusalem would be best taken care of under Israeli rule, and since it is a more holy city for jews than for moslems (!), the only reasonable view of this subject is that Israel, and only Israel, should have the control of Jerusalem. Greetings from Turkey to Israel (the only land in the middle east that can call herself civilized these days!). Regards T.Kara / Istanbul

I think you have it backwards Mark. The Palestinians want Jerusalem because it is under Israeli sovereignty. Nobody burped (for the saked of being polite) in its direction before 1967. It was a backwater town and the area surrounding the Temple Mount, including the Western Wall, the holiest site in Judaism, consisted of filthy, cramped allys with open sewerage ditches down the middle. There were no tourists, no flourishing businesses and nobody important ever came to pray at the mosque. The population was not that large either. Funny that most moved in after 1967, after Jerusalem was united. The Palestinians are not building gaza to spite Israel (let it not be said that it was Israel's decision to cede it to them). Palestinain farmers refused Israel's offer of introducing advanced farming methods (irrigation etc)- let it not be said etc. The Palestinians are the ones who usually cut off their own noses to spite their own faces.

"I guess Nadir is confusing the Arabian peninsula with Judea. It is true that Jewish refugees from the Romans became part of the Arab tribes living there, but they were kicked out after they decided to stay neutral in one of the "Prophet" Muhammed`s militarily resolved disputes." - natan If only it were that simple. Most Jewish Arabs sided with the opposition, a few sided with Muhammad, and some stayed neutral. Things got serious when some Jews under the guise of hospitality tried to poison Muhammad.

The fact is that most archeological finds in and around Jerusalem reveal the londstanding history of predominant Jewish presence in Jerusalem. There are certainly no Palestinian artifacts to be found. None of the other peoples you mentioned were there for long enough to establish permanent presence in Jerusalem and the artifacts to verify their stay there. BEsides, I have the feeling that you are trying to claim that the Jews have no particulat claim on Jerusalem. I find this very cynical on your part. It is an established fact that the Waqf has been destroying evidence of Jewish history for years. If Israel had not given sovereignty over the Temple Mount to the Moslems,this would never have happened. If only they had the respect for other religions that Israel always granted its citizens. There is no argument about the fact that religious freedom after 1967 has been sacrosanct, which cannot be said for the period between 1948-1967.

Nadir, According to the old testament, the Jebusites SOLD Mt Moriah to David. So, tear down your mosques, you've been sold out.

"Can one explain to me why Jews should consider the borders of Jerusalem to be those decided by the Arab population? Traditional Jewish Jerusalem includes the Old City, City of David, Mt. of Olives, Mt. Scopus, and perhaps few other nearby sites. Why fight for something the Jews don`t need for the good of their national consciousness when the other side wants it so badly?" - Ben Gurion Easy. Because they want it. Spite is a powerful emotion, and if the Arabs want East Jerusalem so badly, that alone is enough reason to deny it to them. "And why get as a bonus 200,000 unhappy new Arab citizens?" - BG If that's the price of making them unhappy, well, . . . you get it.

We are at the end of Imperialism.The world has had enough of it.With the information age upon us such dynastys such as the USSR has fallen. People simply want a good life now in the name of themselves. Sport has taken a bigger role.While you study old wars on shabbas people are enjoying the new wars.Sports have never been bigger. People now choose. The last emperors are falling and mostly in the muslim world.Even here on Haaretz and Al Jazeera people speak to each other from different worlds. You are holding on desperately to the past. Help the future move on with some forward thinking.Its time.

I was addressing the location of mosques and the ridiculous idea that we Muslims plot mosque locations to secretly take over neighborhoods. In the US we can buy houses anywhere we want and don't need to beg an occupation army to do so. Your post # 89 was about 2million light years from the topic.

S, if you don't see the significance of the Golders Green analogy, then you're probably not the Londoner you claim to be! To expand your knowledge of Jerusalem's history, let me inform you that it was established by the jebusites more than 5000 years ago. These belonged to a canaanite tribe of the early Arabs, and immigrated into Palestine from the Arabian peninsula. The city was ruled by various civilisations and armies throughout the ages - Romans, Jews, Persians, Crusaders ... but the fact remains that it's a palestinian arab city in origin, and will continue to be so. Incidentally, your comment about Westham is very revealing! What does S stand for? Snob ???

The very existance of Israel with Jerusalem as its Capital . A nation of Jews governed by Jews for Jews and the strangers in the land , with Jerusalem as its eternal undivided capital . Makes Islam , the hadith , the Koran a lie and muhammed a false prophet . As they are supposed to have replaced both Israel and christianity . Islam wants to control Israel and destroy the saturday people first then the sunday people to fulfill their false beliefs . Sovereignty over the land is not their inheritance - they are trying to steal our Birthright and inheritance to legitamise their false religion . The strangers are welcome to live in Israel , at peace and under Israeli sovereignty or face the wrath of Amighty G-D .

"so must East Jerusalem be free of Jewish settlers." Khalid Well, since it is Khalid's idea of ethnic cleansing here then let us go the next step. A fence will go up between the Jewish and Arab parts of Jerusalem. That will now formalise what has been and is two different cities. My neighbours and I are very happy with our fences. I don't want them living in my backyard and vice versa.

They lose every war since 1948 . In every war they sought to destroy Israel and the Jewish people . And they have the CHUTZPAH to want sovereignty over our inheritance and Birth Right . They should not have Sovereignty over even an inch of Israeli inheritance . G-D has intervened in every war , giving victory to The Jewish people , How much more evidence do we need that our inheritance is G-D's land If we give them sovereignty over even an inch , we insult G-D and his gift to us . An Islamic state on G-D's land is an abomination to Him .

it may be amusing to you. Last time i checked, muslims, have bombed WTC, Madrid, London, Bali, Amman etc. Rioting in France, Belgium, Australia. oh sorry, WTC was carried out by the zionists. How silly of me. Its not amusing to people who view radical islam for what is it,,,,,a sickness !

"I agree they are there and their living conditions must be improved, but Israel shouldn't have to give up its land and sacrifice its security to do so." Liz, If you agree the Palestinian people are here--where do you think they came from? Mars? Well, the Palestinian people didn't fall out of the sky and they have lived in land known as Palestine before 1947 when the radical Zionist gangs tried to wipe them off the face of the map and make the land theirs. How evil. Indeed, If anyone sounds mythical I am afraid it is the Israelis. They didn't exist before 1947 and were only spoken about in ancient scripture. But today Israelis have gotten carried away with themselves and have granted themselves all kinds of rights no court in this land will accept or recognize-neither will fair minded people. Thus Israel needs to be honest and fair and give back what is not theirs and share. Remember, God was not in the real estate business just the people business. Dutch

There are many differance nationaliy living in newyork too but the sovereignty of newyork belong to us government.Exasctly the jerusalem sovereignty is belong to israeli govenment.Stop plaing game.Jerusalem will not divided never ever

thanks for the tips Ronnie..some great suggestions there. you're right about the doner kebabs of Tottenham and Finsbury Park -- equally as bad but strangely attractive at 11pm on a cold windy night on the way home. Happy eating :)

Nadir Shragai, It seems to me the Jews of 2006 are trying to be just and fair. After all, the Moslems, the Jews and the Christians all claim to have their roots in Jerusalem. Why not share the dream? Dutch

so we Muslims intentionally build mosques in the middle of nowhere so that eventually we will be drawn to it and achieve a demographic victory? We can move anywhere we please in the US and a mosque is not a prequisite. It may just seem like a flood of Muslims since you are so scared of us. How paranoid are you?

almost all Israelis have admitted it, so just shut up.and Arabs are not Arabs.Palestinians are the brethren of the Jewish people.

Wafa, Thanks for clearing that up. So, really the term "infidel" is just a pet name for Christians and Jews, right?

www.geocities.com/kayforpeace/maru.html

Chanah They have to be reminded that before the Jews entered Jerusalem the place was so neglected that it resembeled a cesspit. When they look at it now they seem to think it was the same then as it is now.More fool them. And what a silly comparison with Golders Green.What on earth has this to do with a suburb of London or the subject in hand? Perhaps this nadir lives Westham? Wouldn't be surprised at all.

In my opinion, in negotiations with Palestinians, only two items should be off-limits: the right of return and the Jewish sovereignity over Jerusalem. These two items should be completely off the table. And any Palestinian attempt to even bring up Temple Mount should be considered as a deliberate insult and insinuation that "my religion is better than your religion". To Khalid I want to say this - Jews have not waited and struggled and died for over 2000 years just to give up what they fought for. No peace is better than peace without our holiest of holies (I'm not even mentioning RoR which is just another way of saying "demographic death to Israel"). If we have to wait and fight for another 2000 years to make you understand it, we will. P.S. Just so you don't think I am a hyppocrite making statements from comfortable US of A, I will be making aliya in 3 years.

For some us Ronnie, the Muslim take over of the middle east is quite FRESH in our memories. We are aware of the Moslem hordes, in the name of Mohamed, taking over country after country after country. Of course YOU wont call them OCCUPIERS, or COLONISTS ... why? because they make good Humus? We jews are quite aware of history - since most of it in the region has caused us nothing but loss and pain. Go to lunch Ronnie, and while you are eating your falafel, your humus, and chewing on pitas, know that a civilization with a religion, customs, and ideals older then anything YOU KNOW, is once again under fire by the muslim hordes.

Israel right to Jerusalem !? What a misconception of History !? In fact it is History turned upside down ! As much as the Jews are cleaver as much as they are naive ! To start with: read the facts the right way, the logical way and the Legal way. Israel = Jews (there would be no Israel without Jews) Israel = Land with boundary. Land = Boundaries. Onwnership = Deed. Deed = "instrument effecting legal disposition" The Kothel= The Deed. The Bounderay = Identifiable in the Torah (& the New Testiment &the Koran) The Kothel= 3500 years Omer Mosque= 1250 years (Islam only 1370 years) The Verdict:See "Land Law" 3rd Edition - Edit:Gordeon Henry Isben 0-7510-0451-0. The owners of Israel are the Jews. Their "Deed" is The Kothel. All the rest are squeetters.The case should be looked by an International Court to rule the rightful ownership, so the matter will rest legally for all time. Halliluya . Baruch Ha'sham. Akram Zekaria

thanks for the tips Ronnie..I shall try and visit the places you suggest. I must say I agree with you about the doner kebabs of Tottenham and Finsbury Park being equally as bad as one another. But like all junk food, they have an inexplicable attraction at 11:00 pm when it's cold, windy and rainy. Happy eating :)

"When it comes to Jerusalem, the vision and the dream must be granted a vastly more important role. It is possible to overcome the demographic problem if we view it as temporary and take action to correct it instead of incessantly retreating before it." How does Mr. Shragai propose to "overcome" and "correct" the "demographic problem in Jerusalem? He proposes to bring in new Jewish settlers, expand the boundaries to the East and improve the economic situation of East Jerusalem. Does this include a betterment of the condition of East Jerusalem's Palestinian inhabitants? Or does he propose to push them to the east, as well, to make Lebensraum for his new Jewish Settlers?

Khalid - I agree with you. As a jewish person, Jerusalem is intrinsically part of our past and culture. I also recognize that Jerusalem is critical to two other major religions and Jerusalem should be inclusive rather than exclusive In the best of scenarios, a legitimate world goverment would manage the old city (that would NOT be the UN, by the way) and everyone would share in Jerusalems majesty. Absent from that, a west/east Jerusalem, with free flow (provided that peace is a reality) of Israelis and Palestians is appropriate. I hope that Palestians abandon their aspirations to elimate Israel, I hope that Israel agrees to create the conditions where Palestinians can finalize their nation (territorially speaking) and we can begin the work to be allies rather than enemies.

Vladimir, you do the victimhood routine very well (applause!)

He can be an instigator and write something that fires people up occasionally but a lot of what he says makes sense. I think rather its a case of perspective. The main cause of problems in the Middle East.

At least you are not stuck on points and can reason them out rather than quote the company line. I am fearful of the Lefts complete confidence in the Palestinians intentions,prefering to be safe rather than sorry while still moving forward (a little slower,with confidence boosting measures)but I read you articulating an issue and its gold,man!

May I commend you on your comment. I do share the same views but with one slight correction: I would say the Christian West systematically put Arab aganst Jew and vice versa. I would make the differentiation between the Chritian West and the Christians of the Arab World. Islam has throughout the ages provided both Jews and Christians protection because in the Koran they both are the 'People of the Book' i.e. the faithful. Not forgetting that in Spain Arabs and Jews had a thriving civilisaton, not forgetting that the persecution of Jews took place in Europe and not in the Islamic World .... just to remind others who think otherwise. Jeff... you are a true believer. I wish there are many more like you, we'll be in better shape.

The Doner at Tottenham is just as bad as the Doner in Finsbury Park

I disagree with your view that 1967 viewpoint should countin this case.Even if thats true under the constitution of Israel.Event are changing rapidly and Israel should reserve the right to defend itself.Attacks from the Palestinians or possible danger in demographics,Israel should be protected. But what it should do is compromise and come up with a system that is fair for the Palestinians based on negotiations and mutual benefits and negatives etc. Also Hamas would have to do some serious changes in their charter to convince of their intentions.

And the land shall not be sold in perpetuity; for the land is Mine; for ye are strangers and settlers with Me. - Leviticus 25:23

Nadir,there are some fantastic restaurants for fallafel in Edgware Road. Also the Crispy Duck at The Water Margin in GG is incredible! But remember its only Chicken soup that can fill your soul! Try Blooms... Meanwhile let the idealogues leave their guns and Hummous (both Palestinian and Israeli) at the door and lets all eat together...

"G-D`s everlasting , unconditional covenant with Israel and the Jewish people is the land from Euphrates in the north and Eygpt in the south with Jerusalem as its eternal undivided Capital . Jerusalem and Israel is our inheritance and our birth right ." YES. This must not be forgotten! It's not man-given, it's G-D given.

I don't know who this guy Khalid is. He's extremely anti-Israel and extremely provocative, and seems to be able to suck everyone in to endless rounds of nonsensical debates on a lot of these discussions. I suggest people start ignoring this idiot, rather than arguing with him.

Arabs in Jerusalem were given rights to be citizens and said no. Let them be part of Palestine/Jordan and leave Israel. Jewish holy city of Jerusalem has never been more free for all religions to practice. In fact its so free, that Muslims are free to desecrate the Temple Mount on a daily basis and no one does anything about it. When Muslims start respecting Jewish holy sites there is a hope for peace, not before that. To give up the Temple Mount will never happen. Jerusalem has been a Jewish majority or plurity for the past 200 years except when the Arabs and British ethnically cleansed Eastern Jerusalem of Jews. Make Arab Neighborhoods part of Jordan/Palestine and retain Arab citizens in old city who are willing to be law abiding citizens of the Israeli capital. Make the ones who dont move with fair compensation for their housing.

Its sad to see how blind one person can be an how easily they turn to support terrorists just because they despise Israel so much. Dutch..NO ONE IS BEING OCCUPIED! Check the bible and you wilol see that the land belongs to Israel...not the mythical state of Palestine. No crimes are being committed against the "Palestinians" because the "Palestinians" do not exist sa a people. I agree they are there and their living conditions must be improved, but Israel shouldn't have to give up its land and sacrifice its security to do so. Let these Arabs' brethren in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait etc. take care of them and settle the so-called "refugees" living in Lebanon and elsewhere.

your home is Mecca. They are waiting for you. Jerusalem is the eternal capitol of Israel

the jews did not take any homes by gunpoint. The arabs left so the invading arab armies could slaughter the jews. Before you riot and kill, you should think about the consequences of such actions.

If Israeli politicians think that we can control Jerusalem as part of our Capital and allow Arabs to VOTE and not just mail absentee ballots to Ramallah and put up candidates for representation in the Palestinian Parliament then they are fooling themselves and are hoodwinking the Israeli public as well as the entire Jewish world. If we want to control East Jerusalem then we have to take the calculated risk of allowing Arab Jerusalemites to vote for the Knesset.

"And why get as a bonus 200,000 unhappy new Arab citizens?" - BG Please, try to control your racist impulses, at least on MLK Day. P.S. Did you bring your crutch today?

'Ben Gurion' is correct. We do not have to dominate upon all the villages north of Jerusalem. We need enough to justify the neighborhoods of Nevei Yaakov and Pisgat Zev. As to the decision to allow Arab Jerusalemites the right to vote in PA elections, it is an unfortunate decision and we should not have allowed Arab Jerusalemites to appear on the ballot. When East Jerualem was annexxed in 1967 there were 60,000 Arabs in jerusalem The fathers of the Yishuv should have anticipated demographic growth. Those politicians who argue that it is better that the Arab residence vote for the legislature of the PA rather than for the Knesset. Well this is part of the dowry. The Arabs of Jerusalem in the final analysis cannot be different than the Arabs of Jaffa or Haifa, and if it causes demographic or electoral problems, then that should have been taken into consideration in 1967.

"How could you face yourself in the mirror? What kind of mentality do you have? Don`t you know that constant lying cause mental illness? Aren`t you concerned about that?" Khalid, I think Chanah's mirror doesn't reflect like many Israelis and their supporters. They don't even see their crimes against the Palestinian people and I feel this may explain why they don't feel any shame either. It's a terrible state of human affairs to be in-- quite primitive in nature. They seems blind to the scaffolding of corruption and deception that surrounds them. They fail to see how they are living a lie about the dispossession of the Palestinian people from their home land and how they are occupying their towns and villages today. And of course, their shocking disregard for the human and political rights of the Palestinian people. It all seems to fit ... Dutch

Khalid makes clear that Palestinians will not act with peaceful intentions unless all of their demands are met. After all, "they have nothing to lose," and "will not budge...no matter what. Never". He doesn?t sound fair or interested in peace. This angry rhetoric produces suicide killers and does nothing to assist in resolving the situation. It is unlikely that, even if those demands are met, Palestinians (and the Arab world in general) will accept Israel?s right to exist. The next obstacle will center on the right of return. Historical accuracy doesn't matter, for example the hundreds of thousands of Jews expelled from Arab countries and absorbed by Israel during it's early days of Statehood mean nothing when it comes to how the Arab world views the Palestinian refugees, nor does the Arab worlds? long-term habit of using the Palestinian refugees as a club against Israel, but never actually working to alleviate the poverty and lack of services, appear to mean much to those bent either on Israel?s demographic or literal destruction. What seems to matter more is that all of the Palestinians? demands are met no matter what the implications are to Israel?s long-term survival. Despite Israel?s mistakes over the years, they are not the only party responsible for this mess, so should not be held singularly accountable. The fact that the Palestinians remain the only group of displaced people from the 20th century that has not been absorbed by any host country attests to the reality that the Arab world does not truly care about the Palestinian Arabs so much as yearn for Israel?s destruction. Prior to 1967 and certainly since, the Arab world has failed the Palestinian refugees, and the refugees have, furthermore, been used by the Arab world as pawns in a larger geopolitical game. This is not a game, and is not fun or funny. Israel needs to make additional concessions, but not negotiate away its right to exist. Khalid?s (and many others) demands about what Israel must to do fail to take into account what the Palestinian Arabs must do, but he (and many others) are really good at pointing a blameful finger without accepting accountability for their collective actions. All sides of this nauseating reality must decide that peace is better than war. One side cannot say that they will continue to kill innocent civilians unless all of their demands are met, and the other must continue the process of dismantling all but the oldest and largest of West Bank settlements. Both sides have lost and will continue losing unless Israelis and Palestinian Arabs stop posturing and start considering more than their demands. One final note ? The issue is between Israelis and Palestinians ? not Jews and Muslims. It would be refreshing if the Arab-centric pundits made that distinction.

Khaild's diagnosis of Chanan, lying leads to mental illness, is interesting, since he lies about Hebron, where the people weren't expelled, but were slaughtered and mutilated (the British supressed a doctor's report on this, which included women having had their breasts cut off), as well as about there having been millions of Arabs expelled (most of those who were displaced were Iraqi workers brought in by the British in the first placed). When I hear muslims talk about how well the Jews were treated, I wonder if it is more halucinating by similar lying mental cases.

Have been there many times, beautiful city, no doubt about that. Have also read the Torah the Bible and the Koran. Which page is it written about Jerusalem in the Koran, - I can still not find it. And we have "the fact" precented by our media that Mr. Yassir Arafat was born in Jerusalem. And a few days later he was born in Cairo, Egypt. Maybe the UN can help me out here ??????

I guess Nadir is confusing the Arabian peninsula with Judea. It is true that Jewish refugees from the Romans became part of the Arab tribes living there, but they were kicked out after they decided to stay neutral in one of the "Prophet" Muhammed's militarily resolved disputes. Apparently that is how "peaceful" Muslims like to do things.

"Jerusalem, whose heart is the Temple Mount and the Old City, is one of the main factors still preventing the national consciousness from being reduced.." - Nadav S. Can one explain to me why Jews should consider the borders of Jerusalem to be those decided by the Arab population? Traditional Jewish Jerusalem includes the Old City, City of David, Mt. of Olives, Mt. Scopus, and perhaps few other nearby sites. Why fight for something the Jews don't need for the good of their national consciousness when the other side wants it so badly? And why get as a bonus 200,000 unhappy new Arab citizens? Nadav, how about thinking rationally, for a change? You can keep all your emotions intact, but use reason to define what you want to be called "Jerusalem". Give the rest of the area (on the east) a different name, and free yourself of your imaginary chains.

While it cannot be seen today,it will one day be clear,that in a seeming convoluted twisted play of events,the very'christian' world,that systematicaly,over a mellenium,turned Arab against Jew,betrayed truth to benefit few, incited horrors through its history will be obliterated by the very blood brother whom the 'christians' betrayed them for.G-d works in mysterious ways. There is NO coincidence the relationship between Arab and Jew.Nor that the christian world has pit these two brothers agaisnt each other in diabolical sequences of history.History has been rewriten to justify this 'christian'horror.History will see that G-d took retribution by having Ishamil obliterat the evil 'west' that so betrayed the Jews,the Arab and Jew will reunite.It is in the Koran and the Torah.Our experience on earth obviously has a larger consequence then merely living. I call it:THE LAW OF QUANTUM PHYSICAL CONSEQUENCE (QPC) JEWS ARE THE FULCRUM OF HUMANITY.THE WEST DESTROYED THAT DEVINE BALANCE!

I think this article misses the point.. My connection to Jerusalem has nothing to do with Rights and Justice (things that "i deserve" or "belong to me") Rather Jerusalem is about Commitment and devotion..in spirit and in real life. It is the egocentric look at OUR rights Justice for US that brings us to where we are today. If we would look at Commitment and Devotion, our place and the place of our neighbors in Jerusalem would be much more secure.

Do you think anything in the U.N. has any meaning. It is a farce, a joke, it has no credibility, it is dream. A delusion. Look at Germany after WWII, devided, East/West Berlin, control by the victors. The U.N. is nothing. Look at Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Haiti, Samalia, and on and on. Nothing the U.N. has to say has any meaning. It is a play on Broadway, it is nothing meaningless. Toothless, mindless, corrupt. A tombstone on the Hudson.

there are literally hundreds of anti-Israel votes, both in the SC and GA. Given the attitude of the UN towards Israel (making note of the fact that Israel alone was blackballed from the security council...by the Arab states). I'm unimpressed with your find.

Your ignorance is magnanimous!!!. Why do you live in Israel altogether???What connects you to the Land of Israel??? Whay don't you write for an Arab newspaper???Jews have a right in Israel and in Jerusalem above everyone else like or not This is our country, this is our beginning, our Temple stood in Har HaBayit and we were forced out. After 2,000 years we are back, and hell we're staying. Israeli choices, Jewish choices were always for peace-how do you justify these murderers???Had they had the opportunity and succeeded you and your family would never have existed.This newspaper is simply a parody and it should be listed among the most Anti-Semitic newspapers EVER...Are you going to Iran for the conference???

it wont change so no need to worry

V'ahavta et ha gher ki gherìm haitèm beretz mitzraìm

Resolutions passed "unanimously" by the UN Security Council are to be ignored, because 9 times out of 10 they are blatantly anti-Israeli and sometimes even anti-Jewish. Each and every one looks as though it has been written by Islamic Jihad or another terrorist group operating in Israel. As for the Fourth Geneva Convention, when the terrorists start abiding by the rules then everyone should too, until then fire should be fought with fire.

John, If we all used your logic and denied history, then I lay claim to your house and your land. My well trained group of Girl Scouts will be showing up to defeat your army and take over your land and house. History means everything. And, history is always written by the victor.

He forgets about the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq. About their plans to wipe out every Jew they could get their hands on. He also forgets how the Jews were treated in the Arab world subsequent to 1948. About how there is less than 1% of the original population throughout the entire Muslim world. Given his rantings of blood and fire, its more likely we would have seen him as part of the mob during 1929. Not preventing it.

You don't believe in true peace Khalid. You believe in conquest and capitulation. Ultimatiums and threats of blood and fire. So much for peace.

UNSCR 465 Adopted unanimously -"5. Determines that all measures taken by Israel to change the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure or status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, or any part thereof, have no legal validity and that Israel's policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in those territories constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East"-

Peace will not come from partition and those promoting it are the false prophets, whether it's Jerusalem or the whole country. The trials and tribulations of today are but the slippery slope of a century of partition on one level or another. Fifty years from now, it will just be a century and a half of this road to nowhere.

The only reason there are so many Arabs in Jerusalem is this. After they conquer areas, the Moslems build mosques and monuments intentionally on or near places holy to other religions. Then Moslems move in and eventually enough are there so that they lay claim to the area and devalue the local religions. Look at India and Iran. A mosque is now planned for a frum neighborhood in Boston where there is no evidence of Moslems now. And one of the biggest mosques in the Boston area is in a nearly totally Jewish suburb. Europe should beware. Soon, there will be pressure to make France an Islamic republic. They came to Jerusalem for the wrong reason. They should leave for the right reason....to let us have our land and heritage back.

This has nothing to do with God and Man. It uses religion simply as a vehicle for man to assert himself over someone else. It is the epitomy of greed and arrogance. A pox on religion, they know not what they do.

The train travels... During the war...expelled and fleeing, waiting to return to the cleansed land,,,cleansed of jews.. the train travels... Rejectionism is the name of the Arab game... Year after year..decade after decade... Many evils on our sides..not just a few Jews, not just a few Arabs.. yes, if i had been there i would have prevented it. That is supposed to help us forget that we are all paying for the sins of our fathers.. The rejectionism and our reaction to that rejectionism.. and the train travels on.. There are some new jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem that i find very harmful to any just two state solution-but I would not accept a blanket statement about all neighborhoods, as if it was Israel who forced Hussein to enter the war.

I built my own home on land belonging to the Lands authority. I am neither a settler (which you choose to ignore), unless you consider all Israelis settlers (which you probably do). I am sure all those living in the Old City in homes formerly belonging to Jews don't give their previous tenants a second thought. HEBRON - You didn't just kick them out, you massacred them for no reason. Turned on good neighbours - why? It was long before Israel's independence, what was your reason for this? Using events of 20 years later as an excuse is feeble to say the least. The Jews in Hebron were no threat to you, had not declared war on you, and you were all living together. You are probably living on one of their homes today! As for your insults and allusions to mental illness, beneath contempt in any civilized discourse. If that is your track of defense, good luck to you. Not a word of a lie in my posts, and if you accuse me of such, please prove it or shut up.

Most Arabs in 1948 Khalid left their homs voluntarily because the Arab armies closing in on Israel urged them to, you know this, please stop fabricating lies. Israeli troops may have forced a few of them to leave but to see that hundreds of thousands were forced out at gunpoint is a blatant lie...one of many.

Jerusalem is a unique place as anyone who has ever been there will tell you. Just walking through the streets can be a spiritual experience for Jews, Muslims, Christians and many others. If peace becomes reality, Jerusalem should be removed from politics completely and the religions should figure out a way to share "ownership" of the city and responsibility for maintaining the holy places so that all people will have equal access to them.

"by minds who could not think beyond very little parameters." i strongly suggest all pay close watch to what danite has to say.no knowing what we might miss.

"Respect for People of the Book" exists only in Muslim Arab propaganda. I expect at least one more round of Israeli-Palestinian war. Afterwards, the discussion of Palestinian sovereignty may well be moot.

"meaningless unless harnassed to some meta narrative." get it?

"the middle east is an addict who will not admit he has a problem." we must pay close attention to the sayings of danite.

Ok, we kicked a few hundred Jews out of Hebron in 1929? If I were living in that period, I would have prevented that. But do you know how many Palestinians you expelled from their homes at gunpoint in 1948? Do you know how many you slaughtered? Do you know how many you dispossed? You should be ashamed for two cardinal sins: First, stealing and arrogating the home and property of millions of people, now dispersed around the wrold in misery in order to make you comfortable. and, second, you should be ashamed for lying and lying and lying about your crimes...and blaming the victims of your own atrocities for their misfortune. Chanah..how could you have the audacity to speak about "expelling...!!!" How could you face yourself in the mirror? What kind of mentality do you have? Don't you know that constant lying cause mental illness? Aren't you concerned about that? Hey Chana! Why don't you invite the former owner of your home to reclaim it..that would be good for you.

Ronnie, I'm often in Golders Green for falafel, also Edgware Road for shawarma. As for Tottenham FC, I'm more of an Arsenal fan, having lived in Islington whilst at uni. All this talk of food is making me hungry.

By the author definitions, we, jews, we should all take up weapons and start fighting for "our promissed land" against Syria, Egipt, jordan and other countries. No thanks. I would be very happy to live in Israel and not ocupy other people just because somebody thousands of years ago had a haluciantion. From here to the "superiour race" is just a very samll step, and from here to the "more land for the choosen race" is a smaller one.

We are loosing our time trying to expect others to comply with ethical standards that we have invented in the land of Israel. The Romans and later on Arabs stole our land, copied on our (torah) and persecuted us for 2000 years. Sad truth.

When Jews are allowed to live in Gaza and the West bank as freely and without threat to their lives, just as over a million Arabs live in Israel, then you can talk about true peace. It was the Jews who were murdered and kicked out of Hevron and the Old City, ad not the other way round. Abu Ghosh is made up of Arab families who preferreed to remain in Israel rather than become Jordanians in 1948 and I don't see they are suffering. If you think Israel is going to import Palestinian refugees from Syria, etc, you are showing signs of delusional madness. They will return to the PA , so you had better start building apartments for them. Considering the fact that you have not even started resettling the refugee in the PA, I am not holding my breath. Start looking after your own people and stop demanding that everyone else do what you should be doing.

"The fact that Britain allowed jews to settle & prosper in this london suburb does not give them the righ to claim sovereignty in London." Right, and the Jews are not claiming sovereignty in London. The same goes for the palestinains who have flocked into Jerusalem since 1967. Before then Jordanian Jerusalem was a backwater town where they built roads and latrines using Jewish gravestones and where no arab leader ever visited Moslem holy places. The fact that Eastern Jerusalem and its population flourished since 1967 does not give them the right to claim Jerusalem as its capital. It has never been such, is not mentioned in the Qoran even once and the claim is based more on denials of Judaism's part in its history and claim to the city as the capital of Israel.

Nadir,leave Golders Green alone! GG and Tottenham are as precious as anywhere else! Talk Edgeware road...

Jerusalem,the physical,should be discussed now but left as the final settlement for peace. Everything should be discussed now but left for later exchanges as per responsibility and accountability on both sides arranged with a third party.

In my mind there are three Jerusalems. 2 of them are physical and one is spiritual. The physical ones (the one or two of them whatever perspective you are coming from) are of dust and old bricks that show (or dont) the history of our ancestors (we have to dig very deep to find all of it) The other Jerusalem is much more potent.It is the idyllic Jerusalem,the 'Next Year in Jerusalem' Jerusalem .It is the time of the messiah.It is the dream. This Jerusalem cannot be negotiated for it is in our minds,it is the standard we have come to grow to and the Jerusalem we must become. This Jerusalem is the most precious but the most elusive.For this jerusalem will come when the Moshiach tells us that 'hey you've made it by being good' I cannot tell you how far away we are from this Jerusalem. On the physical Jerusalem(s)issue.I agree much more with Khalid with reservations.I say that there should be an International force controlling the religious zones so whover wants to pray wher

Perhaps you'd like to brush up on your history, Nadir. It was during their trek in the desert - tired and unarmed - that the Israelites were attacked from behind. Though they survived and prevailed, to name these people as "hosts" is like calling Saddam - Grandpa Charming. Infact, this anecdote smacks of the 1947 Arab attacks on the new Israelis who fought hard and won. If you believe the Israelites arrived from Egypt to this land, than you must also believe it was through divine will and that covenant continues. The same belief written in the holy books of all three major religions. The other side of your comment, which I see in the thin lining, is the claim of today's Pals to be descendents of yesteryear's Cannanites, and so far, no historian or anthropologist has provided an ounce of truth to that claim.

Would one include certain parts of East Jerusalem cleared of Jews in 1948, in an eastern area kept clear of Jews? Is one saying that areas ethnically cleared, must remain that way? Is this not an arguement for ending the right of return refugee claim?

G-D's everlasting , unconditional covenant with Israel and the Jewish people is the land from Euphrates in the north and Eygpt in the south with Jerusalem as its eternal undivided Capital . Jerusalem and Israel is our inheritance and our birth right . This understanding has been inscribed on every Jews heart . Israel with its capital Jerusalem will exist as long as the earth exists as promised in G-D 's WORD . Hallelyah .

the effete(reminds me of danite) prince saud of saudia arabia made this statement: "it would be wrong for iran to nuke israel since there are many palestinians in the area" should we say: 1 put not your trust in princes. 2 thanks you're a prince. 3 you are miserable degenerate. i like the third choice.

very few Palestinians support the redivision of Jerusalem. Israelis should be able to freely access East Jerusalem (the future capital of Palestine) and Palestinians should have free access to West Jerusalem, the capital of Israel. And as West Jerusalem is declared free of Arabs (Malha, lifta, Deir Yasin, Kadamon, Talbiyeh, etc.), so must East Jerusalem be free of Jewish settlers. Each and every settlement built in East Jerusalem since 1967 will have to be dismantled or repopulated with Palestinian refugees from Lebanon or Syira or Jordan. This is what I call true peace. Or else, the bloodshed and war and violence will continue...until a new generation of level-headed Israelis appear and come to terms with reality. We, on our part, already have nothing to lose. We are virtually prisoners. But we will not budge to the Israeli fait accompli..no matter what. Never.

...is about as valid as their right to sovereignty in Golders Green. The fact that Britain allowed jews to settle & prosper in this london suburb does not give them the righ to claim sovereignty in London. Similarly, the fact that they migrated into Palestine from slavery and humiliation in Egypt and other parts of the world, is reason for them to be grateful to their hosts. Instead, they have betrayed and disposessed them.

How would it be, if the Israelis showed their alleged love for the city by investing more money in the eastern parts? They cannot win the race for demographic majority, but they could get at least more loyal citizens. Everything else smells of racism.

You know the precedent - Israel's international borders are as 1949. They do not include East Jerusalem unless that is what the peace settlement determines. One cannot change reality when it's inconvenient.

not you will decide and not your country. you did make enough crimes against jewish people. enough is enough. europe that spilled our blood for centures have no right to spill more.

'Jerusalem, whose heart is the Temple Mount and the Old City, is one of the main factors still preventing the national consciousness from being reduced to the obvious - the place where one was born. In every other country, this natural and primary connection is sufficient, but not in Israel...' What about the Palestinian Arabs? Does Nadav Shragai deny their natural national consciousness? If the universal rule is obvious, what right do the Jews have to invent a special rule for themselves, which denies the obvious right of others?

Yes Israel has 1949 borders and yet because 1947 partition was not implemented as intended, Jerusalem's status is left for Israel and Palestine to determine via peace settlement.

There's only one pair of options: 1) They stay in the Old City and chose to be Israelis 2) They move to land that will be Palestine and chose to be Palestinians There has never been an Arab or Muslim nation with Jerusalem as its capital. There's only one reason they demand one now is to cause Jews a problem, yet you choose to help them. UN Resolution 181 called for an international Jerusalem and citizenship rights for both peoples in both countries West of the Jordan. Arabs said no to both and attacked. Israel protects Muslim sites while Muslims destroy Jewish ones. I'm a secular Jew, but I see the need for the moral and legitimate country of Israel to also protect our sites. Let the Muslims learn morals, headquarter their second Palestinian majority nation in Ramallah and deal with it.

Let Arabs in Israel to choose citizenship and Jews in the West Bank also. Allow refugees to return to Israel or Palestine as "Palestinians". But perhaps those in a united Jerusalem could have dual citizenship, IF they wanted that.

--those places,the Jewish cemetries and the synagogues. They refused to let the Jews near their holy sites. Under Israel the Arabs have the Waqf running Al Aqsa. With Waqf in controll they have managed to beat up the Egyptian foreign minister in Al Aqsa and also use Al Aqsa to throw rocks at Jewish worshippers below. Not a great advertisment for Arab control but the apology brigade surely has an excuse as to why it was all somebody elses' fault.

"People no longer talk about the root of the problem: the fact that we have forgotten our birthright, our right to Jerusalem." The root of the problem are medieval types who still believe in those birth-right fairy tales. Jews may have all kind of claims. Israel has no right to anything outside of 1949 borders.

and if not? what if we had seen those glories fade those titles vanish and that strength decay yet shall some tribute of regret be paid. may the prime minister return to good health.

1 did not jews always live in jerusalem? 2 which people is the city most associated with? 3 the city is part of the jewish people's being. 4 possession is nine tenth's of the law. on the other hand we do not want the philistine parts of the city.and what if they vote for hamas?let them vote for the devil.no business of mine.