On the way to a pariah state

"You should definitely be careful whom you call a racist." -Cipora J.K. Without going into your argument with ANY and Dana, allow me to reproduce one more quote of yours, written less than a month ago: "[Lithuania is] a country made up essentially of racists and neonazis." --Cipora J.K. in Haaretz forum ("Lithuania asks to quiz...") 08/09/07. I hope you'll share my hearty laughter at your advice to Dana.

Cipora, You never fail to surprise me. 1. Until 1977, there was an extradition treaty between the United States and Israel. But an Israeli law, passed in 1977 and intended to protect Israelis from legal actions abroad motivated by anti-Semitism, superseded that treaty. The fact is that Israel has provided a haven to American fugitives is irrefutable. My quote from the Israeli Supreme Court is as accurate as I remember. But I am sure that it is close enough. However, if I am wrong, and you have proof to the contrary, I want to know, as I do not want to be guilty of spreading false information. 2. I have read a few times over the years of a Jewish religious ruling, I say ruling for lack of a better term, that holds that it is not a sin when a Jew cheats of commits a crime against a non Jew. In fact, it was discussed on one of the TB boards a few months ago. Again, if I am wrong please provide proof. 3. If the above is correct, and you believe that these actions do not prove Israel to be racist, then how do you explain it? 4. ?Your post also proves that you are not American born.? Cipora, you are too funny. Again, what proof? If not American born, them where was I born? I can?t wait to see the ?logic? and ?proof ? that substantiates your claim. But, how would that be relevant to the discussion? Eagerly waiting for your reply. If I miss you here, I will repost when I see you participating on a more current board.

It is not that Israel is on its way to a pariah state IT IS A PARIAH STATE. It is a rogue state creating with big brother the US an axis of evil that the world has never ever seen before. Sorry to come to the conclusion that the disappearance of the rogue state of Israel is the only possibility of Peace in the world. By disappearance of the rogue state of Israel I do not mean the slaughter(as Israel is slaughtering the Palestinians) of Israel Jews but the return of the stolen land to their rightful owners the Palestinians and the relocation of the Israel Jews in a land given by the guilty(of the Shoah) western countries among which the US were not the last to contribute. A piece of land given by the western countries in the western territories. Israel and the US are the cancers of Earth.

The Jew's knee-jerk reaction to critics of Israel is "Israel is better than Saudi Arabia" (or Iraq, etc.) They never compare themselves to Finland or Canada or other western countries. For good reason.

You are a bold faced liar. Your post also proves that you are not American born.

Israel is in the middle east. Haven't you whingers noticed yet that if you plonk yourself in the middle of arabia you will find millions of arabs?

CJK It is obvious that your posts # 287, 298, 299, that you know nothing of America, American or the constitution. But it is hilarious that you cannot live with freedom of speech. That you hate it so much says that it is dangerous to you. The only explanation must be that you do not live in a real democracy, where equal rights are allowed, and you assume that the same must be true everywhere. However, I ma sure that you are an expert on Israel. Can you help with the following? Israel has allowed fugitives from American justice, whether, murderers, child molesters, embezzlers, etc, safe haven if they are Jewish. Non-Jews, will of course be turned away. For instance, there was an extradition request that went to the Israeli Supreme Court. The opinion denying extradition of the fugitive said in part ?it is not a matter of morality, but whether Israel will be a haven for Jews.? So how do you justify American Jews criminals, murderers?, child molesters, embezzlers, etc. being given asylum as good Jews in Israel. Cipora, are you going to deny that this is not proof that Israel is racist? I have read that there is a Jewish religious ruling that it is not a sin ( and in light of the Supreme Court ruling) not a crime either, as long as the victim is not Jewish. This bears a strong resemblance to Islamic values that I have read about. Now tell me how much more moral Israel is than Iran. Would you still characterize the country of Israel as one of moral rectitude? Now tell me how despicable totalitarian regimes are by comparison. Cipora, if this is true, can you still try to claim that Judaism is not racist. Why do you support a country that is racists?

I suggest that you re-read my post #287, and pay very close attention to the part where I explain that only the government--federal, or state--is enjoined from abridging freddom of speech. The First Amendment does not apply to private individuals or groups. There are exceptions to this rule, but I do not have the time to go into the subject at length. You should definitely be careful whom you call a racist.

The protests against Ahmadinejad are guaranteed under the First Amendment. There were Iranians protesting, as well as Amnesty International protesting. There were even people from Naturai Karta protesting against the Zionists. Your claim that Foxman represented a foreign government is simply bigotted, and an attempt on your part to deny freedom of speech to American Jews,

Israelis better start caring about this, because the US notwithstanding, Israel has no friends in the world.

The difference between anti~nuissance laws (which can vary by locality) and 1st amensdment rights is well argued. Cipora and most other people who are not in the US are indeed wont to confuse the two. Every year we get treated in the papers to replays of these subtle differences when some neo~nazi group somewhere wants to have a march, don`t we? Interestingly, they usually get their `parade` as much as the town sheriff wants to put it on hold, citing security concerns. Once in a while the sheriff wins. Of course, after the `march` (of usually a dozen or two misfit look~alikes) it all ends up looking silly since no one came out to watch anyways, and the counter~demonstrators ended up sipping iced tea for lack of action. The other point you hint at has merit too. Israel does not have the same laws as the US and neither do most European countries (am not even addressing other countries). In fact there`s still hoopla going on over the shooting deaths of those demostrating Israeli arabs in 2000., an incident that always reminded me of Ken state during Vietnam (though I wasn`t even in the US then). One thought is that in places like israel they`re still mired basically in the equivalent of Crow`s laws, i.e., the discourse about Arabs is really a cover for one about racism. They still did not get around to repealing de~segregation, though they`ll pretend it`s all about religious differences and that it`s the Arabs who don`t want to come out of the ghettos. Forget religion, I say. Most Israelis are more secular than most Americans anyways and would be perfectly happy to mix up with other people (give or take the occasional bully). But there is this heavy cloud of religious/cultural nonsense hanging over everything. That`s why we can`t argue with the likes of Cipora. Her instincts may be good, but she is forced to defend the indefensible, without ever being able to call things by their true name, i.e., racism.

Wake up instead of reciting your biased beliefs ! If the Israeli society is so much "hooked on" the military, it's not for no reason. Remember my previous message, about the wishes of the non-Jews in the Middle-East about Israel's existence... For Israel, the army meant independance, freedom, dignity, and a relative security. Without is, there would be no Israel, no right of self-determination for the jewish people, and maybe there would have been massive slaughters, and the Jews of Palestine would be 2nd zone citizens (even if they wouldn't threaten the security of a Palestinian State ; the Palestinians do threaten Israel's existence).Israel will change what you call "mantras" when their neighbours will change themselves -accepting that Jews also have national rights here, and that there must be a compromise-. It's almost 60 years Israelis are been waiting.

The fact is,Ernst,that the vast majority of the non-jewish people(Israeli or not) of the Middle-East would like Israel to disappear. It was like this since the beginning,even before the WB came under Israeli power,and it has never changed,even if a minority of people --and the 2 non-representative regimes of Egypt and Jordan-- think differently because they are pragmatic.It is not ONLY slogans.Israel has difficulties to deal with its own regime and society because it's not assured of its security and future existence, and therefore it can't afford to go to far in "home-conflicts".And that's also a reason why the occupation goes on whereas the majority of Israelis would like it to end -with a peace treaty-.The qassam doesn't "distract" Israelis. They mean that Pals,targeting civilians in Israel as they always did,don't consider Israel's existence as acceptable.Your words are outrageous,yes so superficial.Your mind is in the Netherlands,or maybe on the moon.

What you have posted is again common knowledge and with one exception, I have not argued otherwise. However, your statement ? If a group makes so much noise as to outdrown the speeker, they would be violating nuissance laws, but not the first amendment. There is the letter of the law and spirit of the law. That the intent is to prevent one person from exercising his right to speech and another from exercising his choice to listen is an attempt, by whatever means, harassment, burning down the podium, etc. to prevent the free exercise of freedom of speech. That the means that they use, harassment is a civil penalty of harassment is irrelevant as the end result is the same. As I have pointed out before, the right to listen or to not listen to what someone has to say is an inherent part of the first amendment. If it weren?t, freedom of speech would be meaningless. You are trying to argue that what is happening, is not really happening. Nice try, but no cigar. That American Jews such as Foxman, the ADL and others to advance the interest of a foreign power by trying to limit what non Jewish Americans can hear, makes me question their loyalty to American and its values. Your perspective of how a democracy works and the limits of individual freedoms make me wonder if Israel can ever be true democracy or have a constitution with safeguards for all of its people. The only alternative would seem to be the status quo forever. I will have another post for you on this later.

Israel will stay here in the world for ever!

The "occupation" would be unnecessary if the Palis hadn't sworn to destroy us and continued to try to make good on this threat. The professional "victims" have acted the same way all throughout their history. We gave them back sovereignty over Gaza and they proved, once again, their are incapable of living with us in peace. Why is this our fault? We offered Arafat 98% of "Palestine" and he sent us the Intifada as his peaceful answer. Do we need to keep spending money and lives because we are the terrorist aggressors in this equation. The Lebanon war (1) was fought to help the christian Lebanese get out from under Muslim imperialism and extortion. We should have helped them to win and not fought with the failed policy of "limited engagement." Lebanese people should be living in a free democracy. We've forgotten that freedom is "free". We've listened to whining women who believe that violence can be defeated with words of love instead of superior violence. We are in for a rude awakening.

To Shalom Freedman: I just wonder if it is only a coincidence that all US presidents and candidates firmly state their support for Israel. I do not care if you are a Jew, an atheist or a flower worshipper from Uganda. The main problem is concentration of power. When 2% or so of the population control the entire country, that is a problem. Some may call this statement anti-semetic. To that I would say that having such a small percentage of the population controlling so much is ANTI-EVERYTHING.

israel, tear down the wall

What is this nonsense about Israelis liking war. Was there an alternative?Forget the time you are hankering after, that we went to the gas chambers , or maybe that is what you wish for us...

You obviously do not understand that the first amandment's prohibition on abridgment of free speech applies only to the government. Private individuals and groups can protest as much as they want against any speeker, and indeed, they are guaranteed to do so by the first amandment. They cannot physically prevent a person from speeking because they would violate criminal laws, but not because they would violate the first amendment. If a group makes so much noise as to outdrown the speeker, they would be violating nuissance laws, but not the first amendment. Nevertheless, they can protest as much as they want, even to the point of withdrawing financial support from the university. When the first amendment rights of two groups clash, it is the role of the courts to adjudicate the matter, if necessary.

"You promised me that Olmert would be thrown out of office as soon as the Winograd report was published. Is this still true?" (Ernst to Tosefta) Of course not. No one ever gets thrown out of office in Israel since dedication to political survival is more important [in public life] than any wishy-mashy moral value. Do not confuse israel with japan where the PM would have long ago resigned in the face of such scathing criticism. "Were does this `We have to bring this chapter to a quick close` start? How do you do that? How can you renovate a house that has been poured in thick walled concrete?" (Ernst to Tosefta) Such nice questions. And I'm sure your ideas are great as were Tosefta's many good suggestions. unfortunately, first and foremost, the will for peace must be there, in sufficient fervor to overcome both fear and greed. This is not the case for israel + RR jewish supporters side. Meaning pals' side matters not at all. Just concentrate on solving Jewish over-advocacy problem.

In november last year, when I wrote about my doubts of the Israeli democracy, you disagreed and you wrote about democracy in the end working good in Israel. You promised me that Olmert would be thrown out of office as soon as the Winograd report was published. Is this still true?

As usual, your analysis are great, I love reading your contributions. #81 was good, but it ended rather sudden:`We have to bring this chapter to a quick close` Well, analysing the situation (`HaMikre`) is good, and this has been done over and over again by zilions of intelligent people, both in and outside Israel. But then what? Were does this `We have to bring this chapter to a quick close` start? How do you do that? How can you renovate a house that has been poured in thick walled concrete? I certainly don`t claim to know an answer to these questions, but I do have my ideas about it. What are yours? How do we close this chapter?

Israel started out with war and somehow integrated war into its nation narrative.(just like the thoughts revolution of 1789 are still today part of the French national narrative) A baby that is born with violent parents thinks that all people are violent! Israelis have lost (or never were in the opportunity) the ability to look at themselves as a people that is not at war. The IDF is holy! Actually, how can you expect a people that integrated warfare in their national narrative to change? What perspective can you give them if they have never learned to see differently? How can you let someone experience color if their entire life they have been told that only black and white exist? How can you make 7,2 milion people stop chanting the same powerful mantras that they have been singing for the last 4 decades? I am convinced that Ben Gurion liked the war of independence, it instantly created a strong feeling of national togetherness.

morality and rationality (Tosefta!) are indeed out of the window. Israel is chanting its mantras over and over again, the slogans have been burned into the sole and mind of the nation: 'we are surrounded by hordes of barbarians who want to throw us into the sea', 'the world still hates us because we are Jews', etc, etc. In the mean time the vicious occupation clouds the deeper problems of Israeli society (typical problems for a young nation). The enormous division among Israelis over what kind of a country they should have: secular or religious? liberal or socialist? More like the US or more like the European countries? The occupation and qassam rockets have been wonderfully succesful in distracting the Israeli people from the more fundamental divisions of their nation. Subconsciously I think Israelis are afraid of the mental insecurities of peace. they prefer the certain physical insecurity of the present.

In Jordan,the majority of the people is Palestinian,and does not belong to the Hachemite beduins(like the King and the Army do).This is a main reason why the Pals of Jordan tried to take the power in 1970 ("black september") ; remember, by the way,that Jordan is eastern Palestine -and that the dynasty,that was settled by the British, comes from Saudi Arabia-. Claiming that the people in Jordan agree with the peace is like claiming that most of the Jordanians,who agree with "honour killings" against women,agree with the Queen Rania,who is working to improve the situation of the women. In Egypt,a lot of people agree with the Muslim Brothers,who would have already taken the power if the regime would not fight them.And those Muslim Brothers want to destroy Israel. There is nothing in common between the peace between France and England/Germany and the peace between Israel Egypt/Jordan.If you can't notice the differences,well,get some informations.Don't "read" the Mid-East with western eyes.

"they collectively accept the existence of Israel and have normal relations with the nation." Not at all. You are completely wrong. The governments accept Israel, because they are pragmatic, not fanatics. But the large majority of the people liviong in these countries don't accept Israel's existence. They actually wish it wouldn't exist, and they often hope one day it'll exist no longer. And they often mourn because of the peace treaties. In Egypt, they enjoy very much the antisemitic books and programs such as adaptations of the Protocols of Zion, and so on. Don't forget that Egypt and Jordan are not democratic : I mean that the regimes are not representing the people. See next message

The article and your views are right from a realistic point of view. "Unfair? Maybe. But that`s the reality, and that`s what Israel has to consider." But I was not talking about what is the reality, I was underlining some aspects of the reality, to show that it is unfair. That's all. Of course, Israel can't escape reality !

"unfortunately Israel and Jew haters will never consider the facts that you are describing." You're right, but I think explanations are very important for all the other people, who don't know much about the conflict, and who "just see" -more or less- the israeli occupation of the West Bank and the suffering of the Palestinians. They mus be brought into the complexity of the conflict, taking into account the long-term (History), culture, politics, institutions, religion, identity, memory, psychology and communication (the power of words, signs,etc..). Otherwise, even if not Jew haters, they'll hate Israel's existence, because of their too simple views.

(CJK) You could live a thousand years in the US and still not understand the issues raised by Ahmadinejad`s visit. The question was not whether Columbia had the right to invite him, which they obviously did, but whether it was a good idea to do so. I my opinion as an American, I think that it was appropriate to extend an invitation to Ahmadinejad. He is an important leader in the ME and his views should be known and understood. It is more important to know his views as possible adversaries, than if Iran were a friendly country. The question of whether it was appropriate for Colombia to invite him has already been answered in the affirmative. They invited him. It would also have been appropriate if they hadn?t. It is a private institution and it was their decision to make. Keep in mind, universities and educational institution should invite controversial figures. If some people think that they might be offended by the views expressed, they have the choice to not listen. It is called democracy. You could live a thousand years in Israel and not understand democracy or the principals of freedom of speech. (CJK) this was never a free speech issue, as so many mistakenly claimed, but one of judgment on the part of Columbia. You are correct on the first point but wrong on the second. It became a freedom of speech issue when the ADL and other Jewish groups began trying to prevent Ahmadinejad from speaking.

The conflict is the age old anti-semitism. The Jewish people have no margin of error being 1/4 of 1% of the world's population, an insane world ready to pounce on them like hyenas. On that I give no ground. The Palestinian cause (for which I am sympathetic )is a sideshow. The Palestinians are used as pawns and an iconology to malign and eventually attempt to destroy the Jewish people. That is the big picture. Just look at the postings here. There is more time spent on the Palestinian cause than the slaughter of millions of others in Africa and other parts of the world. Regarding Schultz, any support he gives Israel would be detrimental to his association with Halliburton and other oil money making schemes. Thus, his foreword to the book is not self serving.

You don't think the French will send anybody with brains to become ambassador to England do you? They sent in their bottom of the barrel imbecile to keep the playing fields even with the Brits. Concerning Israelis having big mouths, which I take it you mean all Jews, better to talk with your mouths than to eat like pigs and develop those big arses you have in your shitty little island.

This is an excellent article. I started reading about the Palestinian-Israel conflict and listening to multiple news outlets and came to the conclusion that Israel is really the biggest obstacle for achieving peace. I support Israel right to exist, but also the Palestinian right to have a viable state (not fenced in cantons)of their own. Why can't Israel say loud and clear: I will withdraw to the 1967 borders if security measures are in place to make me feel secure (radars, AIWACS, satellites, international trrops, no fly zones, whatever is needed)??? All Israel does is stretch out the negotiations while settlers steal more land. Since the Palestinians signed the Oslo accord with Israel in 1993, the settler population doubled; if Israel was interested in peace, they should have gone to zero settlers! More and more people are recognizing the injustice done to the Palestinians and think Israel is the aggressor. Time is not on Israel's side. Please change course soon

Yours rates as the most intelligent post so far

Glad to see that streak of independence. Would have made you one of the [non-wooden] block of independents who decide elections in the US. "I am not made of a cubic wood block, like you people, who want to improve on the square." (S) Now who do you mean by "you people"? just wanted to know who I'm keeping company with.... I agree that purity of arms is for the birds (and may be not even them). ADJ pprobably has to prove it to the ayatollahs daily. And peter has to prove it to himself. That being said, I saw 2 interviews with ADJ and he was very good. Dodged questions when he wanted, hedged bets on others, ran for cover when necessary but mostly he kept that charming demeanor intact throughout. This man knows his PR, and he did come across both human and gutsy in braving his enemy's den to make a case for his people. Must be how he got elected. I wouldn't underestimate him. My "crush" on Obama is mostly intellectual. He really is intelligent and knows how to appear to listen...

I am from America and have read W&M's article published last year. I have also listen to them on the radio stations as they promote their new book. I believe that Americans will always believe in Israel's right to exist. However, I support a more honest dialogue about the US and Israel's actions with regard to the Palestinians. Both countries really need to take a hard look at the suffering they are causing the Palestinians and ask themselves whether it is truly moral. Like my fellow Americans, I worry about terrorism. I don't agree with Islamic fanaticism. But, I don't see how depriving the Palestianians their right to form their own country can coincide with the US's long-term security interests.

In the West in time of armed conflict we have built concentration camps, deported foreigners despite the danger it put them in and debate has usually been stifled for the sake of national emergency. Israel is still at war and the nations with which it is at peace such as Egypt, Jordon and Turkey, produce enormous amounts in a constant stream of anti-Jewish hate propaganda through all means of communication. This does not justify Israel’s responses over time. But tell me where the model is, to which Israel should mimic? It does not exist. Israel may always struggle but comparisons with other Western nations are facile. While Israel builds its State those who seek to undermine it will always hold it to a higher level of morality than that which they are willing to practice themselves in time of conflict.

Congratulations for a profound an intellectual post. Just a small detail. To critizise our goverment policies is not equivalent to dislike our existence. This premise is fallatious and demagogic.The opinion of those who think otherwise than you is that the continuous occupation and oppression of the West Bank endangers the security of Israel and even its future existence. If they are right, they are the patriots and you are just not very bright.

A big question, b ut I will try to answer it a little. !. Not everyone hates Israel, we have many friends around the world 2. Religious reasons for some haters, some woukd like us to convert to Christianity, and are upset that we dont 3. Some dont understand the difficulty Israel have with the Arabs abd blame everything on us 4 Some cant get over that we rose from the ashes and established a working democracy, not without faults, as nothing is perfect. .5 Some are used to us being an easy target and vent their agro from habit etc.etc. Envy of our bright ones also plays a part, so take your pick.

The article is well written well documented and intelligent. You call the author an idiot. I personally think this makes you a triple idiot. This being only just my personal opinion, it has absolutely no value or interest. Same as your post.

This article goes to the core issue of how a nation that suffered a lot during the fourties can not see that treating a whole population "THE PALISTENIANS"as occupied people realy degrades the standards of any FREE AND DEMOCRATIC WESTERN society in a way that makes me understand this article.IT IS WORTHY TO NOTE THAT SOUTH AFRICA S APAARTIED REGIME went down the same path before and HISTORY put it in its right place at the end.

The article is coherent, well documented and intelligent. Your response is to call the author an idiot. Personally I think this make you a triple idiot. This being only my personal feeling has absolutely no value. Exactly the same as your post.

There's a world of difference between the two. We aren't the inheritors on the Greeks and Romans, and any Jew proud of who he is and his own heritage would be sickened by the notion of being "Western." We aren't western, we aren't eastern, we aren't northern, and we aren't southern. We're Jews. The word of G-d - the font of morality - goes forth from Zion, from Jerusalem, not the West.

The problem is that we never were. The West reacts ten times more violently against its enemies and the world is silent. If Israel would do half of what the U.S did in Iraq or Afganistan we would then maybe really be accepted into the West.

"since Israel is the 16th richest country in the world thanks to the handouts from the Americans" One thing about you is that you never learn a lesson you don't want to learn. Do you really not understand all the facts about what happens financially in Israel? I'm surprised at you, Walid. When Israeli businesses are bought for billions by entrepreneurs from abroad then it's not out of sentiment. Nobody is that stupid.

Eli, Schultz may have been harsh on Israel back in early days but this is no longer the case because he is now behaving himself with his forwording of Foxman's book but above all, as Big Boss at Bechtel, he is reaping the zillions in Iraq and Afghanistan contracts from the Bush people in the same manner as Cheneys "former" company, Haliburton. In other words, he has to keep his nose clean and on the good side of the guys calling the shots. On another subject, I was surprised by your comment that you would defend Israel "under any circumstance" and it is this very attitude that is causing Israel to be overly abusive towards the occupied people as it knows there would not be a substantial Jewish objection to its actions irrespective of how horrible they may seem to the outside world. I'm not saying you should not be loyal to Israel but that you should not be giving it carte blanche with words such as those you said because with them, you are harming Israel more than you helping it.

"it may seem that the intermediate morality notwithstanding the essence of the integer may not always be so lucid to the apparent observer standing on a lower inclination from the perpendicular.(from the perspective of an acute angle)" zmogus". -sarkozy apparently quoting his stream of consciousness in #176. You, mr president need to quickly consider some hours to sleep. Having gone earlier to sleep as a red-eyed "sarkozy", tomorrow you might wake up as a normal somebody. Or else you'll start quoting and speaking for the creator of the universe. Take Jasmine's example. Do-do.

I will respond with another ocasion when the subject has a chance to survive a couple of days. One thing though - I know much more about Israel after recently reading a book by Amos Oz, the top Israeli writer. I learned enormously about the 1947-48 period. Refugees, and all. In short, my feelings about Israel's mistakes of the last 30 years have not changed, and are identical with what the above author is saying ("...in the last few decades..."). Yes, we took the land away from the Arabs. There was no other choice for the Jews to have a place to run to, if necessary, after 2000 years of persecutions. At that time, only America was a safe place for Jews. Europe, of 20th century, proved to be a disaster. And, there was no other place in the world for the Jews to feel at home! Jerusalem and Tel Aviv were full of Jews already. So, I will defend the right to this home for Jews with all my might. Yet, I also respect the Arabs and deplore what has been done to them in the last 3 decades.

I f the Iraqis didnot listen to their mullahs and did not fight each other , they could have been on top of the world by now , no matter what the Americans guarded

You could live a thousand years in the US and still not understand the issues raised by Ahmadinejad's visit. The question was not whether Columbia had the right to invite him, which they obviously did, but whether it was a good idea to do so. This was never a free speech issue, as so many mistakenly claimed, but one of judgment on the part of Columbia. One can, and I myself could, argue this either way. The ultimate judge will be history.

"Do you really think that the only state in the middle east with a democratic government, and the only one that does not harass Jews and label them dhimee is "just another ME state"?" I don't think Israel is a democratic country. It's a military junta masquerading as a democracy. And, yes, it is "just another ME country". The only difference is that its inhabitants appear to have bigger mouths.

"Since those filthy words were uttered by the former French Ambassador to Britain, there has been an election in France, What a refreshing change. Merci." How has the departure of the French Ambassador to London changed the fact that Israel is a shitty little country? Shitty is as shitty does.

carlos arguments are parallel to saying the earth is flat ! it has nothing on which practicallity or history have not dealt with long ago ! see einsteins theory of stupidity !

No Israel is safe, all the Israeli first people in positions of power and influence in the US will see to that. No one would dare to go against Israel if they want a political career in the US

Eli, had the Arabs sunk their monies into their countries' economies and people, they would have been ahead of the Israelis. I recognize the industriousness of the Jewish people and I'm the first to admire it but you are not comparing apples to apples here since the foundation of Israel came about in good part by the displaced Europeans who were already culturally advanced and knowledgeable of democracy and the second wave was comprised of the reasonably well-off North Americans doing their aliyah. You are comparing these people to the semi-nomadic Arabs that had no clue about nation building nor any financial help towards that end. If you want to properly compare to the Arabs, you should refer to the early Jewish inhabitants of Palestine that weren't that much different from the Palestinian Arabs. The Arabs have sudenly awakened and started doing something constructive with their money but this is from their fear of the oil running out one day. There is no oil in Lebanon as you know.

Sweis Melbourne, I agree 100% that the third world people have to get off their asses and start improving themselves but to do so, the western countries have to drop their colonialist approach to these people such as what we are today seeing in Iraq. The Americans did not go there to depose the evil Sadam and bring American democracy but to ensure its futur oil supplies by the dismantling of a whole country to drive it towards a tripartite separation. This is the new colonialism at work. It is as abusive as the former. This new colonialism and occupation of a once great country has caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands and the forced emigration of millions. Don't forget how during the invasion, the Americans guarded the oil ministry with all its might while it left the museum without a single guard to protect Iraq's natural treasures. How do you expect Iraqis and other 3rd world countries to have faith in the west? The west is no longer a beacon to go by.

Despite all the murder and mayhem loose in the world, surprisingly few nations become true pariahs. Interactions between nations are often based on amoral self interest. This is where W&M are coming from. They're asking the age old question, what's in it for me? Arabs have oil, Israel doesn't. This isn't about morals, so much as practical considerations. Interesting enough, when Bush Sr was president he tried to pursue this line of thinking and ran head first into...(surprise!) the Pentagon. 25 generals took out a full page ad in the New York Times denouncing Bush Sr's new anti-Israel policy as "a threat to the national security interests of the United States". Israel's support in the USA runs a lot deeper than AIPAC, and it will take more than the condemnation of a few academics to turn Israel into a pariah State.

there and it's the 16th richest country in the world thanks to US Handouts. I would not discount these nobel laureats not Israel's intellectual capacity and its resourceful people. It's rich because its people are industrious. I don't see Saudi Arabia with its oil wealth being the 16th richest country in the world. Absent constant wars and threats of war Israel could surpass any country if it had more people and resources. Should peace break out, Lebanon will be one of the first beneficiary. Maak El Salam.

To be an european country supposes that people don' t behave like savages in eveyday's life. The West was weak with Hitler. If Israêl stops iran he will be the hero of the westlike in 67. This supposes a real government we don't have. Olmert go home!

why wait for the "West" to fix your problems. Try limiting family size, concentrating on educating your young pple, let your women work, stop terrorizing the world and killing each other {and your government ministers} and stop listening to your uneducated, vicious mullahs. You can easily achieve what the West has, I am sure you have the brains.

The more Palestinians Israel kills, the more terrorists it creates. For every Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades guy the IDF kills, five more spring up to take his place. If Israel can't see that soon and work out a better strategy, it'll end in tragedy for Israel as well as the Palestinians.

Johnny Weintraub, it still is. The article here said so and so do many other countries and this is what the word "pariah" is intended to mean. We are not talking about military power since Israel has the Bomb and we are not talking economically since Israel is the 16th richest country in the world thanks to the handouts from the Americans and we are not talking intellectually since Israel and or its Jews has a few dozen Nobels but we are talking about how one country treats the other people under its control and for that, your word puts Israel at the head of the list. I think this is what the ambassador was saying.

Efox, you say the western world is dying; it's not from the presence of the orientals as you are implying but because of how the western world has been treating these "other" people. Rather that making a cheap attempt at linking the problem of the western world with that of tiny Israel to bring sympathy to it and by a calling to arms, as you further insinuated, it would be more productive to address the root cause of the problems instead of trying to militarily snuff them out. There has never been so much talk about stopping terrorism as by your President although he is its biggest recruiter. 35 years ago, a great Canadian PM had anticipated today's problems and asked that the third world's problems be addressed by the western world to avoid what we are today seeing and that was his repeated message at every G7 meeting back then but nobody understood what he was talking about. It's not too late for the west to fix the problem but attitudes like yours have to change.

to separate it from it's strongest supporter and finally bring about it's destruction. The fact remains that the US supports Israel for geopolitical reasons and it has nothing to do with AIPAC and the Jewish Lobby. George Schultz, Secretary of state under Reagan, and not known for his love of Israel or the Jews , cautioned against scapegoating and wrote in a foreword to a book by Foxman(who was debunking M&W's claims), the following, and I quote: ?We act in our own interest. And when we mistakenly conclude from time to time ? as we will ? that an action or policy is in America?s interest, we must take responsibility for the mistake.? The M&W book belongs in the garbage, but the article by Strenger deserves very careful consideration, especially his comment "Many of us believe that Israel's moral fiber has been fatally harmed by the occupation". I agree, but I don't think it's fatal. I am not a leftist liberal, so don't get excited. I will defend Israel and our people under any circumstance.

French Politicians may come and go, but some things stay the same: Israel remains "that shitty little country" As best I can tell, it is the most despised country in the world. The USA may at present be the second most despised, but a majority of Americans are very uncomfortable with that positioning, and I think international perceptions will change dramatically after our next presidential election. The majority of Israeli supporters seem to almost enjoy being despised--they blame it on anti-Semitism when in fact it is due almost entirely to Israel's various mistaken policies.

Jane does not seem to understand that a war that "must be won" is one that is already lost, because no group has the ability to fight a war forever against an increasing number of enemies. That is Israel's problem, it has created more enemies than it can ever possibly defeat and when the enemies are strong enough, which will happen, Israel will cease to exist. Jane basically advocates that Israel fight until it dies. Regardless how Israel dies, it will still be dead. As a side note Jane is correct about PR, it is useless without concrete action and Israel's actions make it impossible to have any good PR. If Jane is lucky, she will die a quiet natural death before Israel dies, but I suspect she will have to deal with emotional trauma of Israel's death long before she dies. How bitter will she be that Israel might have saved itself by negotiation instead of war? "live by war, die by war" has been true for over 5000 years.

It is amazing and incredible the effort carried out by Haaretz and its editorial staff to destroy the base of Israeli society. and it is a model to the world, the tolerance of that society toward tirades that in any other country would amount to treason.

this article does not touch on the issue of israels treatment of visiting USA jews who are often of the Reform variety. the reactions of this group is vital to the way the israel is perceive3d in the USA. this group does not perceive that the jewish state is there for them.

Do you really think that the only state in the middle east with a democratic government, and the only one that does not harass Jews and label them dhimee is "just another ME state"?

There are two main dangers to any state's existence:1.religion 2. intellectuals. Between the two, dread the intellectuals more as they change with the weather. No other country ever doubts itself, not even close to Israel's constant adventures for outside approval. Lefties fault rightists, and arabs jews, but Israel is still standing inspite of the doubts of the carlos and others. Come on Israel, let them self doubters mouth off what they wish,after all nobody is really listening to them(they love to be self important for sure). Israel's primary purpose is nothing more than to look out for the welfare of the jews. There should be no questions about this at all regadless what Carlo says, or what even the Supreme Court decides. After all Carlo is a nobody while the court will make many other decisions too. Carlo is just one intellectual with an opinion, and we know that opinions are cheap, all ######## have one and they are still just gaping holes,causing only a stink sometimes...

Imagine how "grown up" your state would act if it's borders were laden with fanatical thugs that would stop at nothing till they had your land? Your so-called "unsupervised child" is under attack. Please let us know how you really feel when it's raining rockets in Denmark.

The standards of the western world have gone beyond the mere cheek turning of the Christian Paradigm to outright surrender and capitulation in the face of any threat. People who live only for hedonism, people who are unwilling to take personal risks for higher principles or even the good of their own children, assuming they bother to have children at all; these people do not have the strength to stand against those who invade and devour them from within. The west can not afford to live up to western standards, how less can tiny Israel, a state so narrow that it can be crossed on foot in a day. Israel will defend itself, the west will fall before the hordes.

John, are you trying to get rid of me? What fun would it be to join a forum of Israeli bashers singing the same tune. If it had a few Jews participating it would be something else. Imagine Talkback filled with nothing but people who like to brag about how many Nobels the Jews have gathered over the years; and you'll get the idea why I'm here.

Since those filthy words were uttered by the former French Ambassador to Britain, there has been an election in France, What a refreshing change. Merci.

The author raises valid points. But again, misses the big picture. America did not invade Iraq on Israel's behest, in fact, Israeli intelligence attempted to dissuade Bush numerous times, explaining that America would destabilize the entire region, and that Saddam would very likely retaliate against Israel in return ("Scuds") circa first Gulf War. Two, Israel has always straddled the fence between "West" and "Middle East" and will continue to do so. AS far as being on the "wrong" side of history goes, that will be for the history makers to decide, in a hundred or so years time. Not for you Prof. Strenger. The future of Israel is in question, as it has been since 1948. Iran, Syria and the Hizbollah, are simply Iraq, Egypt, and the PLO of yesteryear. A two-state solution is obviously the only viable solution, but it will only be viable when the Arab world accepts the fact that Israel is here to stay, as a country, and ceases to fund Palestinian terrorism, and treat them as proxysoldiers

"even "peace" with Egypt and Jordan is bullshit :" - Nicolas As is, no doubt, peace with England and Germany. After all, neither has attacked France lately. "hey don`t care about the Jewish people`s right -and need- of self-determination ;" - Nick the punk So what, they collectively accept the existence of Israel and have normal relations with the nation. Nick, so you love war and suffering and cannot countenance a world without it. The rest of us are sane. I am very glad that Israel has normal and peaceful relations with Egypt and Jordan. I am delighted an Israeli can visit the Pyramids or Petra without fear. What is YOUR problem?

NfP: "It is unfair to judge Israel according to "western standards", because "...... Truncated, because it really makes no difference WHAT the "because" .... excuse might be. The author is right; Israel *WILL* increasingly be judged by the western countries according to "western standards", and any excuse Israel comes up with will cut very little ice. The "west" - i.e. America - has increasingly got itself entangled in A Great Big Mess in the M.E. and sooner or later the next President will seek to disentangle "the west" from it. Israel can either stand alongside the other members of "the west", or it can keep bleating out your excuses for "different standards". If it so insists, then it will be so judged i.e. it will be judged on its "westernness", and not on the merit of any excuse it makes for its "unwestern" standards. Unfair? Maybe. But that's the reality, and that's what Israel has to consider.

And where will the US get intel on Israel's neighbors?Where will the US get their technology and advances for and in cell phones, nuclear research, medical research, military hardware, aircraft technology and transportation technology?

With the risk of sounding too 'oriental' I will observe that a history teacher of mine in the 7th grade observed that if you didn't like the positions of the two (American) parties all you had to do was wait long enough and they would switch. This has happend. Israel went from being a wonder child in 1949 to a pariah in 1975 and back after the 2001 attacks on the US to a tolerated bad kid. I recently read Robert Bucks "North Star Over My Shoulder." He was a Pan American pilot who often flew the DC-4 kept "clean" (never landing anywhere except Rome and Israel) and was called by Pan Am people "the Yom Kippur Clipper" until conventions came and an airplane could not be easily traced as to where it had been. He told of his joy with the Israel he first landed in, and his less than enthusiastic view of the Israel he last landed in during the 1970s. I have watched Israel change since I first became aware of it in 1956. Israel is not what it once was, and could become a Paraiah nation.

I wonder how many European countries have taken in refugees from Darfur. Israel has taken in a couple of thousand from Africa and about 500 from Darfur, the latter being a part of the Sudan ,which is in a state of war with Israel.Israel need no lesson in humanity.During the tsunami of a couple of years ago, Israel sent supplies and medical personnel to the effected countries of Indonesia(the largest Moslem country in the world) with which it has no diplomatic relations,Malysia and others.It is Israel that is the teacher of humanity to the world.

"1. "let [oil] prices go high and the ingenuity of the west will come into play.we would have massive research into alternatives." - Flushman This is what I expected back in 1973 when the Arabs dropped the boom on our heads. Instead what we did was reject conservation and hire Ron Reagan who told us that eternal dependence upon Saudi Arabia and Iraq was the way to go. Flushman is an idiot which is " a feebleminded person having a mental age not exceeding three years and requiring complete custodial care ." He is right up there with George W. Bush whom has never survived without the support of his very rich family or government welfare.

That you would believe the nonsense that so-called neocons control the long term strategy in Iraq and the rest of the ME, is more reflective of your ignorance of that area of the world.If you believe that pro-Israelis want to stifle debate on the many issues involved in the ME today, then you are in need of some serious reading on the subject.Such an attitude reflects a very strong bias, not only in the UK,but other countries on the European mainland.Do some reading and put away those comic books.

Tosefta, a moron is simply someone who is retarded with a mental age of 8-12 years and is capable of doing routine work under supervision. A Lessron is someone who is not naturally a moron, but who's use of their intelligence is well below that which a moron can accomplish with full intent to use their intelligence.

what the hell do you expect any country to do ????????? Western country or not.

The problem with many of the critics of Israel seem to be their view regarding the Israeli responses to deadly attacks,ie homicide bombers,kidnappings, rocket attacks and just plain killings,which are to retaliate against those responsible.Such responses give fuel to those not so enamored with Israel ammunition to blame that nation for failure to bring peace to that region.They simply overlook (intentionally or not) that it takes two to tango, and the Arabs aren't dancing.The objective of Israel's neighbors is its eventual demise; efforts to reach peace will eventually be limited to a sort of truce.Peace agreements between Israel and Egypt and Jordan have held but are fragile and cold.But a cold peace is better than a hot war.As a result, Israel must maintain a strong military force sufficient to assure its security.

I have a question. is there anybody out there who knows why almost every nation on earth hates Isreal I really need to know so I won't sound dumb when I speak.

The problem is not that Israel is judged by Western standards, but rather that the bar is set higher for Israel than Western countries. But your point is right - Israel needs to take heed of its image and the increasing deliegtimisation of it. It is not sufficient to say "anti-Semitism" and not do anything. Israel needs to work much harder to improve its image, and to ensure understanding (and sympathy) for its actions, which are mostly reasonable.

The US must sever all ties with Israel.

Walid the daily star in Lebanon has a decent forum,not as much participation as Harretz,but a forum.

"`if you wish to make acase for your argument it requires credibility! your article has none ! it fails to examine the awful alternatives ! physician heal thyself !`" "Note that this post offers absolutely nothing to refute the argument contained in the article." But it does contain a great many exclaimation points!!! Regards

I agree with Dr Strenger, Israel must shed its local jewish ethics and adopt western historical standards of behaviour towards countries at war, minority populations openly bent on destroing the state and killing its citizens. Where do we start Dr. Strenger. Declaring a perennial state of emergency and deporting all the Palestinians, Arabs, dissidents etc.? maybe putting them in concentration camps the way the Americans dids with their "Oriental" citizens in the war? Should we carpet bomb gaza and nuke Iran, the way the English bombed Germany, or just exterminate our enemies and their children, like the Germans exterminated the Jews,and the Australian, Americans, Spanish exterminated the Indians. Are you shure you want as to be like the western nations? Maybe you think that if Europe was attacked now, they would behave differently, they would put the other cheek and watch their children die?

"America may decide to drop this drain (Israel)on its resources,both financial&moral." I think that whichever party the next president belongs to, he/she will not change the American policy towards Israel; that is, consistent support. Regards

Hi Colin--Let me guess, without looking. It is Victor hardhead. Regards

According to people who were there the applause in the audience came from foreign students from Arab countries and Iran. There was also a vocal group of anti-regime Iranian students who booed and laughed at their comical dictator. The academics and other people were absolutely revolted by what they heard from the Iranian monkey.

Israel does have a serious PR problem that is not given due attention and resources. Having said that I question possible moves that would both secure Israelis from radical Islamist attacks and improve public opinion. I am not sure it is possible to do all the things necessary to make Israel safe like roadblocks,checkpoints,security fences,hunting down terrorists, etc. and do it in a humane way.It is not that Israel does not want a peaceful solution to the occupation but that there are many within the Palestinians who continue to support terrorism and simply don't accept the Jewish State on any terms. The first priority of the government is to protect their citizens from those who would murder them and evict them from their land by any means necessary. That is the war that must be won. The PR war will have to wait.Israel will prevail and western countries will continue to support it even if they question its tactics especially now that many of them have been attacked by terrorists too.

S I have been reading your posts lately and becoming more confused about why I was confused. It maybe that your skills have improved in stating your position. I think that I have become a little more careful in stating mine. The last exchange being based somewhat whimsical and also placing you in a category based more on association than understanding your position. Which I regret. Although I am still confused by your strong association with TR. I don?t see the same point of view in what he posted and what you seem to believe. In any case, I may have to back off even further and eat more crow. Your post; Iranian President: If Holocaust happened, why must Palestinians pay, # 737. As Dana has pointed out before, posting here helps one to focus and define their concepts and arguments. In that light, your post made me realize that people like Cipora, can read the constitution and cite it verbatim, but it remains an abstract document that is evaluated in a vacuum. My conclusion is, after posts back and forth to Cipora, that people have to live in a country to experience and understand the full meaning of its system of government and the freedoms that are allowed and disallowed. I remember the shock I received once in Peru, when I was not allowed to leave the country. It was inconceivable that I was not free to get on the plane. Obviously, you understand freedom of speech not from the words in the Constitution but from the practical intuitive human understanding of what freedom of speech is. A bit of trivia, I don?t have time now, but I think it was wrong in Germany to make Holocaust denial a crime. Only from the stand point that it is thought control and a bad precedent. But, what works in one country doesn?t necessarily work in another.

writing like a girl is not nice ? may be we should send you a not nice writing girl so you could stone her to death ... About Ehud Yatom: Ehud Yatom was a very senior officer in Israel?s secret service. In April, 1984 four PLO terrorists hijacked a civilian bus headed from Tel Aviv to Ashkelon, Egged?s Bus 300. The bus was filled with women commuters, some pregnant. The four terrorists threatened to murder them all. The bus was stopped at a roadblock and an elite Israeli military unit stormed the bus, killing two of the hijackers on the spot and capturing two others. In the firefight, a teenage woman soldier in the bus was killed. The Israeli military then issued a laconic statement that all four terrorists had been killed in the firefight. In fact two were left alive; they were conducted to a nearby field and then dispatched to the great peace process of the sky by the Israeli secret servicemen, led by Yatom. For Walid, Kuntar and Yatom is the same thing !!!

Mr Strenger views of the western moral and ethical standards a very far from true, regarding the way they judge Israel, just reading at their comndenetions and criticism of Israel policy and defence, in a greater porcentage of the time is tainted with blatant anti-semitism and trying to ignore that fact is very irresponsable. Israel is Western Values, we gave it to them over 3000 years ago, before the hellenic and romans we were there source, please do not forget this fact.

Haaretz will print any vicious attack on Israel or Jews no matter how absurd. The "any criticsim of Israel is deemed anti-Semitism" line is repeated and repeated in many forums under the belief that if you repeat something often enough, it will be seen as true. The purpose of this line is to disallow any naming of anti-Semitism for what it is, thereby allowing anti-Semitic ideas to be circulated with impunity.

Israeli public into seasfire at any cost. Any vicious antisemite could be sure to get a post in this talkback.

'The problem is that Israels supporters have no concept or interest in the long term. ' I think it's worse than that. I think Israel's identity was formed in conflict with the Arabs, that it has matured in conflict with the Arabs, and by now, that Israel's identity is wedded to conflict with the Arabs. By this point, I doubt if Israel can exist without it. Those of us who have been married a long time can understand: it's just hard to imagine living some other way. For one thing, what would bind all these Russians, Germans, Yemenis, Ethiopians together? Is the fact of their (often dubious) Judaism enough? Israel needs the war. Too bad it's going to kill it.

'if you wish to make acase for your argument it requires credibility! your article has none ! it fails to examine the awful alternatives ! physician heal thyself !' Note that this post offers absolutely nothing to refute the argument contained in the article.

If becoming a pariah state means Israel doesn't have to receive handouts from the NWO US and means that Israel doesn't have to listen to the anti-Jew UN, then by all means Israel should become such a state.

(Daybreak) I understand that I`m obstructing your usual efforts to convince everyone you can that black is white and white is black. Not even a speed bump. In photographic terms, you are looking at the negative, literally and metaphorically and thinking that the shades of grey that you see are true.

Israel is not a pariah state, Iran is, Iraq was. Israel has tried many times to give territory for peace. And, with every concession came a suicide bombing followerd by an Israeli tepid response to terror and murder. That didn't work as it invited more terror and murder. Israels standing improved with the Lebanon war, improved when Rantissi and Yassin were taken out, improved with the latest attack on Syria, improved with just the threat of turning off the gas in Gaza. It is when Israel does not behave like other nations when under attack that Israel's stock goes down. Carter, Walt, Mersheimer and the ilk may be read, interviewed and are hero's of the left and Arabs. The left, Arabs, Carter, Walt and Mershiemer are not the people that Israel needs to address or impress. Why would the Israelis or anybody else want to???

Very well explained Nicolas, but unfortunately Israel and Jew haters will never consider the facts that you are describing. Bonne nuit!

Does anyone know of any specific goals as to where the nation of Israel wants to be in 10 years or in 20 years as far as peace and relations with neighbors are concerned? Is there any plan to reduce tension with Iran or Syria? Is there any motivation on the part of Israel to actually support and facilitate an independent Palestinian state? The answer to your questions are: 1. Israel will secure all surface water resources or aquifers? presently under its control. 2. It will annex the lands in the occupied territories that it desires to achieve the water and arable land, and transportation links to tie them together irrespective of any dislocation of Palestinian communities 3. A sustainable peace would require compromising the above goals. That will not happen.. 4. Peace is in fact, detrimental to achieving the above goals and detrimental to the economy. 5. A sustainable peace would require a sovereign Palestinian state. That would be unacceptable. Therefore, continuing occupation of the Palestinian areas is preferable to a sovereign Palestinian government. 6. Israel believes that a military solution is possible to achieve all of their goals. 7. It will continue to exploit America to subsidize their economy and military to allow them to accomplish all of the above goals. 8. As long as American support can be manipulated, compromise is unnecessary. I am of course stating the obvious.

"...Please stop writing like a girl with your awww and errrm and stuff like that; it`s not nice." We already know (from your previous comments and innuendos) that you hate gays, but I did not know that you were also a misogynist!

are chosen? By knowledge or real insight? Or only by mere believe? Since the situation of Israel is different from all of that what you believe you may think from the coming result that you were always right. The chosen ones are the people of the Tora. Jews, Muslims, Christians or even agnostics you may look upon as inferior because you are proud to be a chosen Jew by fancy. Do you know what "Tora" really means? Not only exegetically but from the essence? The unhappiness starts as soon the theologians, Imams or fanatics take over the good heart. Have a nice trip. This all has been said as if it had been never said. And that could be a starting point in general.

"He" will never let us (jews)down???Was he on vacation during the holocaust?

Oh God! How did I get involved with a pure man! The last thing I dreamt doing. Still better than a pure woman though!!! I am going to brush my teeth now. This purity stinks all over me...

If israel is a light unto nations the world would be far better off in total,100%,absolute darkness.

"Too late the warning, waken up, you are already viewed as a monstrous entity, devoid of humanity as you push the Palestinians to extinction. Israel is a by-word for barbarism !" I sympathize with you, boyo, I really do. It's hard to accept reality when one-time terrorist pinups are forced to stack papers, arrange filing cabinets, and top up the coffee pot in Ian Paisley's office. But really, now, taking it out on Israel - is that really necessary?

... and hard work to despell the numerous haters and ill wishers on this site. God bless and all the best...

How many of those `poisoned` young minds with the predetermined outlook go on to occupy so many key positions, multiplying anti-Israeli ideas & armies of `bashers` because it is simply entrenched, not understood. We can question how such fantasies are possible in contrast to the stark reality of the Arab world & especially radical Islam. But you give it enough time to change the human landscape, together with radical Islam & ant-Israeli feelings becoming almost a norm: realistically on the spot threatening & very scary norm, you will see how fast the `blind` ideology, especially hand in hand with the realistic threat can turn reality into fantasy with all the proper `documentation` attached. It is the spread & growth of intellects blaming `jihadists unite` web sites on Israel should be the long term concern. Israel IS a very convenient target if `jihadists unite` of 67 through 82 as well as real forces truly cultivating & supporting it up to now are conveniently ignored or swept aside.

The wacko liberal are small in numbers and have few children. The conservative Southern Baptists have more children. Unless the growing hispanic population starts turning anti Israeli, the US will only get more pro-Israeli. What I want to know is why is the US so pro Arab? We give billions to Egypt and unlimited support to Saudi Gammorah. Saudi Gammorah is one of the most dangerous countries in the world. They sponsor more schools of hate around the world than anyone else. If their cancer infects the Muslims in Central Asia who have nuclear weapons, then we must all be worried. Eurabia is doomed. They prefer to support their masters over doing the right thing. Focus on South America and Asia. Thats the future. Israel's future is bright. In 50 years, Eurabia will be irrelevant in the world economy. North America will pass Eurabia in population. Israel needs to focus on the future: India, China, US, South America, parts of Africa, and Muslim countries.

The old-new antisemites will always find fault with Israel. That is their profession, that is their mission... Hello Cipora, The statement could not be any truer, however the hard core anti-Semites `work` does not scare me much, they can be `sensed or seen by a mile`. It is the `silent assassin`, always lurking in the shadows of Israel that can (God forbid) make it happen. Obviously irrelevant, despite or very much twisted of what Israel does or not, as prior to today, maybe not in our lifetime, but obviously a possibility. The last thirty years of progress in liberal left `humane blindness without borders`, Arab finances targeting anything resourceful aiding in Israeli bashing, especially microphones or any PR gates to the world wide societies & their most ordinary people & young minds, especially in the most prestigious of educational outlets.

What happens when Israel allows for a just settlement with the Palestinians and commences peaceful relations with the majority of Arab nations? Another way of asking the same question is why does Israel resist the Saudi Peace Initiative? Think of the US perspective. Billions upon billions of US$ has been sunk into the Israeli military over decades and that military can be employed to meet US objectives; anyone who believes the US didn?t approve the devastation wroth during Lebanon II needs reminding Condi Rice stood in Israel and declared "We shall prevail". An Israel at peace would enter a period of quiet punctuated by good will gestures as relations with its Arab neighbors develop. Hence its foreign policy will cease to be militaristic in nature. Hence Israel?s usefulness as an extension of US military might would be enormously diminished. Would the US tolerate such a state of affairs?...they have a right to expect something for their billions and billions after all.

Only when Carlo's view becomes the majority's view does Israel stand a chance of losing the pariah status it already has among humanists. Only then will it avert its headlong rush towards self-destruction. Only when its majority ceases to behave like a bunch of dishonest spoiled brats does the nation as a whole stand any chance. Forget your 'ethnicity', forget Zion, and become first and foremost humans - like the rest of us. What cartoon character was it that said:- "We have met the enemy, and they is us"

Yes, I'm a teacher. Well spotted.

i think you are wrong which values of the western world are you talking about ? the one that let the people from rwanda died like animals or the like the tchechens or the one that let the chinese governement doing whatever he wants ? there are no western values there are only economic and political interest the western world exept the USA ARE READY to sacrifice israel for the sake of their own security !! in fact they are afraid of the islamic terrorism !!

Thank you. I am not about to give up.

Hello Margie, I keep wondering if you are really a schoolteacher. You certainly think like one. All things must be clear, no shady areas and progress must be made, then all will be well. Keep up the good work.

You may be right regarding the internal politics of Israel and that Israel is considered a pariah state; however, Israel's behavior is no different than many western countries: our (US) position on the environment, France's behavior towards their Arab citizens, etc. not to mention Russia! Of course two wrongs don't make it right. Let us hope that most states in the West will realize that we are in a global war against the Jihadists and that Israel has been fighting this war for decades.

"western standards", because Israel's existence is on the balance since its birth ; Israel is in a state of war(and even "peace" with Egypt and Jordan is bullshit : most of the Egyptians and Jordanians would be shouting of joy if Israel would disappear : they don't care about the Jewish people's right -and need- of self-determination ; they only see the Pals' right).Israel suffered the worst long-run terrorism.Pals don't want a compromise (if they would,they would not support the civilian killers,and they would not ask for a right of return IN Israel).Israel's situation is more complex and worse than the french situation in Algeria in the 60ies,or than the US situation with Vietnam or Irak(US existence is not under threat).And HOW DID FRANCE AND US BEHAVE,HUM ? THEY KILLED SOME PEOPLE,DIDN'T THEY ? They left Algeria and Vietnam,but it was "easy" in relation to Israel's situation ;if Israel leaves the West Bank,the threat on Israel will hardly decrease,EVEN WITH A PEACE TREATY.

Peter, on the subject of human rights, I can assure you that Lebanon is no better than Israel in that field. As to Samir Kuntar, how many times did I write to you on the shalom-salaam forum before you got thrown out that I am dead set against the release of that man and any man that does not have reservations about bashing people's heads with a stone. I was reading that you too had one just as vicious as Kuntar by the name of Ehud Yatom and you should google his name if you have never heard of his exploits with stones on Palestinian heads. Please stop writing like a girl with your awww and errrm and stuff like that; it's not nice.

He'll be in good company with other leftists like those who applauded Ahmadinejad for saying the "Palestinians shouldn't have to pay for the Holocaust." Strenger thinks Israel is the "Nakba." If he is so ashamed to be an Israeli "occupier," why doesn't he go back to Europe? Then he can be on the "right side of the clash of civilizations" where England is becoming Londonistan and French Jews are attacked on the streets. The only people defending the antisemitic Walt/Mearsheimer report are antisemites on the far left and the far right. As for the other antisemite, Ambassador Daniel Bernard, of "that shitty little country (Israel)" fame, he was reassigned to Algeria, where I'm sure he felt right at home (before dying there).

Thanks for your determination, lucid and sober responses in an otherwise intoxicatingly old-new antisemitic parade, these talkbacks are. Please don't give up; I read almost every post you make, and find strength and clarity in them. Sincerely, Fortuna Benmayor.

I look and see with both eyes not only the left one and I certainly don't entertain the revisionism for a moment. If you choose to do the occupation shuffle that is your perogative however it is a meaningless red-herring, with plenty of shmaltz. It is our purity of arms, it is our morality, it is our ethics and the holding true to them that is taken advantage of to create, yes you read it right, to create the situation we are in. England, France, US, Australia, Canada would never have put up with what Israel has and continues to. Oy vavoy to the Arabs in Yesha if Israel would act like any Western country. As for the Likud, nu you'd rather take back Sinai??? better you should go play with nada who appears to be more your speed, you can tackle revisionism together and moralize with each other over a latte. As for directions, my apologies for assuming you were bright enough to find your way post #5 without more help, alas I was wrong.

"it may seem that the intermediate morality notwithstanding the essence of the integer may not always be so lucid to the apparent observer standing on a lower inclination from the perpendicular.(from the perspective of an acute angle)" zmogus the cairo times awaits you zmogus.

Here are a few things that Israelis have done recently: 1.Israeli scientists develop heart muscles with embryonic heart cells 2. Israeli startups raise $1.62Billion 3. Israeli electronics teaming with Northrop Grumman space & mission systems 4. Israel bomb=sniffing breakthrough for bags. 5. Israeli biotech company developed banana plants completely resistant to nematodes 6. Israeli/US students design for light aircraft win international helicopter competition 7. Israelis invent hydrogn car that just uses a tankful of water 8. Israeli invented system to help board plane more quickly 9. HP bought Israeli company Mercury for $4.5 billion 10. Israeli invention gives paralysed a chance to walk. 11. Israel designs 'rotorless' helicopter for US military

that were and are raped repetedly by irish catholic clergy? of course, ireland is a western state, ha ha ha.

The " WEST " has never never never considered Israël as a " western " country that should be " defended " ( defended like Tchecoslovacia in 1939 ???). Carlo Strenger might be a professor but with cut-from-the reality dreamers like him the beginning of the end is never very far. In fact , he is not different from the imbeciles who rule the country.300 billion dollars weapons have been sold to the neighbours of Israel by the european countries the last 20 years. 300 billion !!! The arab countries have invested in Europe 1.000 billion dollars, that means that the arabs have bought half of Europe ( and half of all european politians ). Can this distinguished gentleman not understand that the " West " does not need a single pretext to actively collaborate to the physical annihilation of the State of Israel and his inhabitants. Does that gentleman not know that genocide is an old european activity ?

poor guy can't find a single publication to deal with human rights issues in lebanon. I mean there isn't a single one, surprise surprise, that sees anything wrong with the fact that Ron Arad has been in "disappeared" condition for over 30 years, or that all Israelis kidnapped by lebanese are in that same state. whew there isn't a single one that doesn't revere samir kuntar as a hero, a glorious fighter...ohhh yeahhh. poor walid would rather natter away and display his Jew envy, all the while attempting to muster some debating skill through osmosis whilst making a fool of himself. I know, some of your best friends are Jews. c'mon give us a stupid grin now, isn't that the way to lie and say the truth at the same time.

try the publishers in cairo.

But I didn't ask! If I did, I would have asked like in NY: "could you give me directions, or should I go and f#&k myself?" But since you did, I checked your #78: "yeah, be proud of Israel`s morality, and..." etc... Nice of you to admire us from Montreal. Would that the West, sees us as you do! But no chance peter. Look better around you. With both eyes, not just the right one. We are here to stay, yes. But we must stop occupying others because THAT is immoral. Carlo is right. The last few decades were the end of our morality. Since 1977 when Likud came to power.

"Christians and Jews lived under Moslem rule for hundreds of years but every time when Christians took over, ALL non-Christians population was exterminated." Yet throughout the diaspora most Jews lived in the Western world, and in Christendom, not in the lands of Islam. That's a fact, whether you like it or not.

Pariah state who cares??? We Jews have never been really a part of the Western world and we go back to where we came from,the west fumes just as they did before.WAKE UP IDIOTS WE ARE A MIDDLE EASTERN NATION AND AN ECCENTRIC ONE,IF THE WEST CANT STAND IT THEY MUST TAKE THEIR NOSES OUT OF THIS REGION WHEN IT DOESNT REALLY CONCERN THEM.

Schmidt, you must be in Winnipeg. Yes, I do hold Israel to a higher moral scale for 2 reasons. The first comes from the Israelis themselves that are constantly tooting their horn at every occasion that they are morally and intellectually superior to any other nationality; in other words thy are forever leading with their chin in spite of all their failings to maintain that standard by their horrible behaviour towards the Palestinians. The second comes from what I'm now discovering to be a misconception about the make-up of the Israeli population that I had believed to be made up of intellectually and culturally European background; I'm seeing that there is rif-raf there just like any other place although there are definitely some of the other kind. Perhaps the idealism came from PET.

Dear Professor We are many french Jews who agree with you..We can't understand the deep mediocrity of the whole israeli political class ,not only talking about ethic & material corruption..but its lacking of "vision", of strategic vision about the future of this country, which is not a"banal" one for us ,even if not all of us are zionists.. The time has come to exploit the "window of opportunity " to go on on the path of negociations ,to draw a map of hope for the two peoples..to moralize the political life of this country..The only explanations to this situation of absurd silence I give to me are: 1)The Israelis are too groggy by too many wars 2)or/& the lack of culture & open-mindness on the world ,political sensitivity to the world (not only to Darfur in the way that harm the arab cause..Please stop opportunist behaviour), 3)Don't be mesmerized by the angst!Read a new the Bible(I'm not religious!)& meditate the self confidence of our ancestors &you'll find the right path...

So, Israel is not a "spoiled brat" because it's a militaristic nation. Fair enough. Yet, you then whine, stomp your feet, and wish the same on your detractors. Sounds like a spoiled brat to me.

"Israel started off OK as a western implant in the Middle East but long ago it reverted to semitic values. While Europe, at least, as part of the West, has become more and more civilised in the last sixty years" Says Keith from the UK, a country which more often than not doesn't even consider itself to be part of Europe, while flying on its coattails. Besides, what is so civilized about using vacuous discarded racist cliches like "Semitic values"? Sometimes I wonder what is the criteria for joining Europe anyway. Obviously non-European countries like Turkey are openly embraced as candidates for membership, while countries like Serbia, Russia, and Israel are treated like dangerous pariahs. In the end, the UK will look more like Downtown Karachi, while Israel will continue to be a pillar for western values.

You wouldn't know truth if you bumped into it head-on. Continue to dwell in your ignorance, and the truth won't hurt.

WHy is garbage like 'Any criticism of Israel's policies is dismissed as an expression of the New Anti-Semitism' printed on haaretz? The only people who make that claim, that "any" criticism of Israel's policies is dissimissed as anti-semitism, are actual anti-semites, and people who rabidly hate Israel. Intelligent people know that some criticism of Israel is dismissed fairly, some of it is dismissed unfairly, and some of it is not dismissed. Why does haaretz print this crap?

Just so that you know that the sort of things about Lebanon are considered 'inanities' by the unconcerned Walid are chiefly reminders that Ron Arad has been imprisoned there without the Geneva Convention provisions being implemented for close to 30 years and ditto for Regev and Goldwasser though so far for a much shorter period.

Have not hash and rehash ad nauseum the subject?! Further, there was a guy, a feature wrtiter of some merit contributed to the field M&W, apostrophying us on their great work and research, which Haaretz so fit to publish, extotring the modestie of the two, M&W, professors out in the very surprise about the boohaloo. Well, MR Strenger, you are giving them more exposure, and allow a disturbing vociforous, veneimous diatribe about the Jewish Lobby from all the Islamo Fascist, by name or by accreditation. Let the subject die.....that is exactly why the Israeli pundit did'nt pay much attention, to these two, M&W,"very modest, and unassuming profs."

This author complains that Israel ignores nitwits like Walt and Mearsheimer, oppressess Palestinians hellbent on wiping her out, and is no longer judged by the [double] standards of the West?! Let's see what this pariah state Israel has actually done. It sent 52 specialized firefighters to battle the worst fires in Greek history, and firefighting aircraft to combat fires in Cyprus, and disaster relief to Peru, all in the last 3 months. It just accepted 500 refugees from the Darfur genocide. The Supreme Court of Israel bends over backwards to appear evenhanded, by forcing Israel to reroute the Security Fence near Bilin and forcing the Jewish National Fund to sell land to non-Jews. This is the country which bucked the trend of the entire course of human history by returning land won as the spoils of war to those who were both the losers and the aggressors. Indeed, that doesn't sound like Western standards to me!

I believe West would be dead wrong in applying same ethical standard to Israel vs. the Western Europe and N/A. If it is the word's destiny to survive, Israel will survive as well with the Western blessing or without it. In terms of Israel's haters in US like W&M now, or Carter and Bzerginsky, the Bush Sinior and his James Baker and the other A...l Brent Scoucraft all in position of great power before, nevertheless Israel strived and will continue to strive, because the admirers of Israel are many more and growing. Israel will help itself tremendously, if it can nerrow the devide between the jews inside of it. Israeli jews need to care about each other instead of caring for the beasts. That alone costs much more than anything else, the craizy professors could imagine. Regards...

No matter what you're drinking, you're okay.

Sarah, I understood your question better the second time around. I regret that we don't have a medium like you do in Haaretz to air our grievances because there are tons and tons of grievances about things done wrong in this country. Every publication is backed by a political faction and vice versa so messages such as the one you are asking about and how come we don't busy ourselves with them instead of harrassing the Jews here are simply not possible. You will notice that many times when things are said about Lebanon, I usually go along with them except for the inanities that are muttered by Peter and his keeper Margie.

"`m glad to discontinue this painfully boring and shallow correspondence" -Jasmine Murphy I've never been closer to agreement with you, Jasmine. It surely was a rare pain in some places. Good night and take advantage to rest. Just in case if you are using PC: "Start" on the taskbar, then "Stop the system". Not "Restart" though!

I realize sometimes I drink too much and I am not a Jew, but it seems if the President of the United States gets up in front of the UN and tells the world that little Israel is being singled out and unfairly accused, then Israel is far, far from becoming a pariah state. This Stenger fellow must be running a fever or something to say such a thing.

...however, for the great majority of the normal jews, the professors writing's are a total garbage. In my view both camps in Israel(right & left) should stop using that idiocy of survival so often. There are some issues with considarable risk such as WMD's, but we all facing these dangers regardless of where we reside. The great tragedy of 9/11 is the unfortunate prove to that. As far as issue of Israel beeig the part of the West and the implications of what are the consequences if it misbehaves or breaks the western ethical standards, or in short is Israel in danger if West will abandon's it? The whole thing is a bunch of boloney. West needs Israel more than vice versa, and precisly to better defend it self from the muslim fanatical hords. The professors head is full of imaginary devolish things and he would be better off in moving to another field of science. Israel has never blakmailed the West, but who said it couldn't.

"Now please don`t go too far to the left too fast. can leave one rather breathless...."... Why? I am overtaking you? Now look - I am not made of a cubic wood block, like you people, who want to improve on the square. Purity of leftism or rightism is for Hannah or Klaudia, not me. I'd rather continue to appear dizzy and follow my independence. Ahmedjihad looked so ridiculous yesterday, such a liar, such an idiot, such an ignorant, such a demagogue, such a pig, that I was upset with all those who needed to improve on that. Foxman! Another idiot who is talking and talking because most probably, at home, his wife is doing all the talking, like in a good Jewish home, and he must exercise his mouth, somewhere. And about those who liked A-D? Who cares? About Obama, do you have a democratic crush on him or what? I only look for intelligence not for politics. And that is way too rare among demagogues and their chief, Netanyahu. Barak is a hope because he is intelligent and not a sissy.

See article by Khaled Toameh in Jpost. Why hasn't Haaretz reported that story? Too busy criticizing Israel for violating Hamas's "rights" to notice Hamas violating those of Christians?

You addressed me first. I'm glad to discontinue this painfully boring and shallow correspondence and allow you to continue to demonstrate your acquaintance with commonplaces of the operation of the computer found doubtless in your essential handbook 'COMPUTERS FOR SIMPLETONS'.

to becoming a pariah state, then there is no reason at all to refrain from collective punishment of the civilian opulation of Gaza, a step which should have been taken a long time ago. The Palestinian civilians voted Hamas into office, overwhelmingly support terror, give support and refuge to terrorists, and are thus collectively guilty and deserving of punishment. Palestinian civilians must become a primary strategic target, just as they and other Arabs, such as the Hezbollah, have always made Israeli civilians a primary strategic target. We live in the Middle East and should act like the other countries in the region.

"I forgot to explain the two types of `ron`. There are morons, and lessrons. Are you [Flushman] a more or less? - Mark Lincoln Mark, for your benefit I will take a look at today's Flushman's posts (and a previous one) directed at you and me. Normally I don't read them, but I am curious about your comment. You will see that the man has poor logic, poor understanding, and poor facts. Here is a collection: 1. "let [oil] prices go high and the ingenuity of the west will come into play.we would have massive research into alternatives." Flushman believes that credible research can produce results instantaneously, as fast as he excretes his posts. It takes years, enough time to have a severe global depression. Responding to this point, Flushman "relied" on the economist S. Brittan: "when oil was at 70 dollars [Brittan] wrote that it would be catastrophic were the price to come down sharply.the result would be the search for alternatives would be halted. sounds logical to me". This sounds logical to me too. But if the price should not go DOWN sharply, does it mean that it can go UP sharply? To me this logic sounds moronic (I mean, lessronic).

How much does Israel have to give up to satisfy your perception of what the world wants of Israel? How safe will it then be as a home for the Jewish People? Which Western Nations are you using as examples for Jewish National Behavior? Are they still surrounded by enemies who have tried to destroy and are still trying to destroy them for over 2,000 years? Where in the West or what country in the West do you suggest that Israelis to go once they have given up being Israelis and become Western?

"under the heap of solemn representatives" -all what is left of sarkozy's citing zmogus' phrase #98. sarkozy, the essential is to stay calm. If I'd suffer from your difficulty to go through the sentence right to the end, I'd also quote your presidential speech #130 as follows: "zmogus convinced to pay you go and mombasa instead?". But I guess you will find in this quote identical either...

What a lamebrained article. We are hated because we are Jews. Fitting in / compromising ourselves has never worked. In pre-Shoah Germany, people thought that by giving up their Jewish identity and becoming Reform Jews, they would be accepted. The Western world has always hated Jews. What we need is to show pride in ourselves and fight anti-Jewish sentiment. When we compromise, we show that we have no self-respect. Who can respect someone without self-respect? The problem is that we've let the problem simmer for decades. We should have acted decisively long ago and moved all the Palestinians out of Israel when it would have been easy.

"W&M paint Israel as a rogue state that does not abide by international law, and is not up to the standards expected of a Western state. The subtext is clear: Israel is just another problematic Middle Eastern country, and should be treated as such - and the number of policy makers and opinion leaders who think this way is growing" The importance of the Walt and Mearsheimer study will be seen in years to come. It was a critical event in the history of Israel.

... brought it up for still unclear to me reasons: Jasmine Murphy. Be careful when asking her though, for she might mistake you for Tosefta. Just like you seem to confuse me with Jasmine. Read her thread and you may understand something on those definitions that escaped my comprehension. Being simpleton sometimes helps to understand another simpleton more than being wiser. Did you learn copy-paste yet? Lesson n° 2: Ctrl+C, then Ctrl+V.

I understand that I'm obstructing your usual efforts to convince everyone you can that black is white and white is black.

Haaretz is so far left that it should be considered what it is completely biased against Israel and pro terrorist

DearWalid It remains my impression that you hold Israel to a different standard than you do your fellow Arab bretheren. Please try and correct what I hope is a misconception on my part. Or if I am correct please explain why this is so.

"certain Israeli practices in immediate area" -zmogus #102. "certain israeli practices in intermediate area" -sarkozy #128, quoting zmogus. Do you play the find-one-difference IQ tests there in the president's residence? Let your computer do the job then. Try the Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V functions when copy-pasting. True though, the computer is just another place to sit on, when it comes to difficulties in comprehension...

Learn to read polls. I brought the quotes and numbers. You take them in and spew out propaganda. Better go to sleep.

Strenger is another - in a long line - of lefty Jewish academic idiots . Earth to Strenger : The EU and the US turned off the lights in Yugoslavia and killed 10,000 civilians because they did not want to risk ground troops - Israel, in contrast, showed great restraint against Lebanon. As a result, it had little to show for at the end of the war . Also, Strenger, do you think any EU country would show the restraint - the sicknening restraint - Israel has shown in the face of the rocket attacks against its towns. Lastly, dreck like Strenger make it impossible for anybody to get hired on Israel's campuses , unless they, too, are lefty idiots.

"Since you`ve taken it on yourself to speak for Tosefta I`ll reply as if you were Tosefta. You do not live in Tveria." "speak for Tosefta"? The Ctrl+F function will allow you to trace down all cases of "for Tosefta" in the present forum. My computer traced only "Jasmine Murphy for Tosefta". Might it be that PCs are just as different in Israel and elsewhere as the reason and moral definitions?

"...you can't please everybody, so you've got to please yourself". Jews have been treated like pariahs for 3000 years for following Jewish values instead of those in fashion at the time. Big Deal. W&M treatise will be dealt with like the academic fraud it is in due course. It is ignored by 95% of America; the 5% who look at it have minds made up in advance. Israel's only reliable friend is America, and not "the West". Who does Strenger think Israel should cater to: notorious double-crossers like the Brits ("the WOGS begin at Calais")? Scandinavia? France? Been there, done that, NOBODY depends on France. Germany-Austria-Italy? Less said about that the better. European nations gleefully wiped out their Jewish populations in various eras and still think that way. Israel should stick to its guns. There has been no "sea change". Just clearing weather, so reality is more visible. European part of "The West" takes Israel's cooperation for granted, but eagerly coddles anti-Israel extremism.

zmogus get a hold of yourself.even though we love haaretz we have to protest. have you tried the cairo newspapers?

To my surprise there are people, including Tosefta and Zmogus who feel that a definition of Israeli morality has to include people who have never lived in Israel or who have lived outside Israel for an undefined number of years. I'm prepared to put up with a certain amount of whimsy but this limit is not elastic.

Tosefta, your constant attempts to obfuscate and spin are getting you nowhere where it comes to American support of Israel. If there is one proposition that pollsters recognize as correct it is the strength of American public opinion support for Israel. Gallup stated in March 2007 that support for Israel is "at its highest since the Gulf War." All of the events that people like you think weaken support for Israel in America, like the Lebanon War, do not weaken its support among Americans. Traditionally the strength of American support for Israel has been an anomaly in relation to the rest of the world, but as the Pew study I cited in my earlier post indicated, that may be changing, as public opinion in Europe is now growing in its support for Israel according to their most recent global attitudes study.

The so-called West is aware that the real project of Arabs is not peace with Israel but is to wipe the country off the map. They claim to be chocked by non existent Israeli crimes because they in fact support the Muslim genocidal project as they supported the Nazi genocidal project. Their anti-Israeli stances are just a repulsive and hypocrite way to give a moral umbrella to their criminal policies and to their filty anti-Semitism. Bowing to Arab blackmail is not the best way to solve this situation since it will encourage more Arab blackmail and more hypocrisy in the West. In fact, Strenger is exagerating the threat since many Westerners are not hostile to Israel and does not support the genocidal project. Strenger is also missing the real point. The real ennemy is not in the West but in the Middle East. Israel must focus first on the Muslim ennemy and win the war and Israel does not need Western support to win it.

zmogus suppose i convinced the readers to pay you would you go and write to the mombasa times instead?

Zmogus, I thank you for trying to defend me against Jasmine. I am afraid the "attacker" you envision is merely a windmill. Let us see what she says: 1. If you ever were an Israeli you are no longer one of us.. Please don`t include the rest of us in your personal point of view. 2. Since neither of you is living in Israel I don`t think your definition of your morality is relevant. 3. You do not live in Tveria. Your hours of posting make that clear. From all of this I can gather that Jasmine believes that Israelis who are currently present in Israel are the only ones who know or understand what the definition of morality appropriate for Israel is. It is a strange claim, but it is even stranger that there is no elaboration on this idea or on the more revolutionary idea that Israeli morality is different from Western morality. My attitude, when facing such a person, is at best to ignore him/her or just use the occasion to generate some humor. This time I think the "windmill" metaphor would suffice.

what??

You only have to hold on until the morning check-ups.

Currently Mr. Ahmet Turk independent mp from the Kurdish party and some of his friends are being investigated for saying that they do not believe PKK is a terror organization. The Prime minister of Turkey has been suing many of his critics who have drawn caricatures of him. Israel is in an existentialist war with Arabs and still Arabs are elected to the Knesset, they can speak their language and live their culture freely (unlike Kurds in Turkey). Turkey which does not have an existentialist threat can be better described as an apartheid state for the Kurds. I have said it before; you must spend your time and energy to make a change in your own country which is on the way to become just like Malaysia or Iran. Once Turkey reaches there you may not be able to access the internet to read Haaretz and post here.

is this guy for real?

"please ask the guards downstairs whether we are still using the guillotine." Your ward-mate neighbour next room may be more informed about guillotine. If Sarkozy doesn't know, surely Napoleon will. What I can say is that some therapeutic results you will surely achieve while repeatedly reading posts like Jasmine Murphy's #104. Enjoy the white prezidential room.

What are you saying here with this article? Are you saying that somehow it is Israel's fault that the Islamic world uses it as the rally cry for jihad? This makes no sense. Long before their was Christianity and even longer before there was Islam, G-d brought the law to us by giving it to His children, the Jews. The Jews were here long before anyone penned the notion that there will come a day that the rocks and the trees will call out, "Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me! Come kill him!" Sure, there are anti-Semites in the U.S., but as long as there are Bible-reading Christians in the U.S. Israel will have a national friend. I've noticed there aren't many things that will motivate us to call our politicians but it seems that making darned sure that we support Israel and want our government to do the same is one of those things that does get us to drop the TV remote control and pick up the phone.

Since you've taken it on yourself to speak for Tosefta I'll reply as if you were Tosefta. You do not live in Tveria. Your hours of posting make that clear. I never correspond with Absolute Sweden or Cipora so I have no problem with them. You can't even fool me some of the time.

the palestinian problem is corrosive...when one population subjugates...occupies another...it affects both parties...and not in a good way. Doing so IS being on the wrong side of history....in many ways, Israel can now say that it is trully a middle eastern country, as it has joined it's neighbors in being on the wrong side of global development. The west no longer occuppies people, in fact, as illustrated in Iraq, we hate it, we are not good at...anymore. Those who are, are still mired in an old way of thinking that you can forceably change the course of history to benefit you.

"Since neither of you is living in Israel I don`t think your definition of your morality is relevant." -J.M. 1.Tosefta is Israeli, so am I. Tosefta lives in Tveria, I spent years in Jerusalem. You still find a problem with all points of either of us. Cipora J.K. is not Israeli, let alone Absolute Sweden. Never saw you having problem with their posts. This was about integrity of your mapping the standards along the geographical borders. 2.As for "definition of morality", I may have my opinion on it but made no reference to it in my post. To spare you the apparently difficult task of comprehension I'll repeate verbatim what you took for definitions of morality: "Give reason a chance". In case you think the reason is can be mapped only on one side of the Israeli border, see the example of paragraph 2.

Even in personal life, a good friend is important. Just knowing that there is someone to talk to, to listen. Israel's interests come after. And no Israel is not a pariah state nor headed that way. It is just another developing nation searching forward sometimes in the dark. Statistically, it is a small country in good shape. Stop this negative thinking, and enjoy the fact that Israel exists and thrives. Israel has more friends than you know.

please ask the guards downstairs whether we are still using the guillotine.

sacre bleu!what eez that all about?

Jewsih national sovereignty years has been under Jihadist genocidal attack by the forces Arab Imperialism for some 60 years. It appears that the world would love only an Israel that would commit national suicide against such forces. If defending against intended genocide makes Israel unloved in the world, then so be it! Because the alternative is worse!!!

The problem with Israel is akin to a cop catching a criminal. Once he has control of him he must procede with the arrest which must end in court. He cannot stand on the corner with the perp forver. Israel has allowed the areas of Judea Samaria to fester instead of moving to court. No planning ever occurred among Israeli leaders if Israel were forced to take over what is essentially historic Israel. Starting with leaving the Wafq in charge of the Temple Mount shows the absurd thinking of Israel's leadership in 1967. Palestine is across the Jordan River on the East Bank. The Jordanian army was totally defeated. That was the time to move the remaining palestinian population to Palestine. Instead, Israel thought like liberal social scientists. Arabs can be our friends. Israel can have a normal, cooperative relationship with Arabs. Israel can build Judea Samaria with her Arab 'brethen'. This poppycock nonsense continues to form the core of Israeli thinking.

"a solid majority of Americans (58%) say their sympathies lie with the Israelis and only 20% say their sympathies are more with the Palestinians." - Gallup, 2007 (Tosefta quote) "averaging all polls from 1993-1999 and comparing these with all polls conducted since 2000, the average level of sympathy for Israelis rose from 41% to 53%, while the average level of sympathy for Palestinians rose from 13% to 16%." - Gallup. 2007 (Daybreak quote) I suggested to you to read the QUESTION too. From the language, and the word "sympathy", I assume the question in your quote is AGAIN, comparing Israel and Palestinians, not Israel ALONE. But this is different from the "Americans viewing Israel favorably" question, where things are getting worse. Read what I said, we are not arguing about numbers here.

"we are no longer judged by the standards of the West is the beginning of Israel's end, because it means that the West has decided we are no longer part of it" Western standards are hardly high, given their penchant for periodic world-wide colonization. To be honest, this article seemed a bit fawning about Western standards. Israel needs to make a decision about the Territories and act on it. Not mass murder obviously but possibly expulsion. Westerners are not necessarily going to throw up their hands in moral repulsion but they are getting sick and tired of it or basically just tuning out entirely. They know that Israel is not perfect and noone expects her to be but they do object to the simplistic propaganda that it's always the Arabs fault. We know that all of our political and corporate elites are making a killing (literally and financially) from this constant warfare and that they have absolutely zero interest in seeing the tensions subside.

Pariah , Exile, Outsider, recluse ? it?s called OCCUPATION

Not allowing these things to affect our daily life is a measure of our spirit and the way we defeat those who hate us, Guido. If you had only six missiles a day launched at Paris how would you react? I doubt whether you'd laugh. But then, you aren't an Israeli are you?

Not allowing these things to affect our daily life is a measure of our spirit and the way we defeat those who hate us, Guido. If you had only six missiles a day launched at Paris how would you react? I doubt whether you'd laugh. But then, you aren't an Israeli are you?

...the one who dont live in Europe cant understand this growing "Hate" against Israel! before the 2d Lebanon war there were some caring from europeans citizens but now it s very different...Israel be careful!! let Pals live in Freedom!! Let ur neightbors live in Peace!! stop ur hypocrite paranoaic!!

The question is neither about Israel becoming a pariah state nor about America's relations with Israel. You have explained it already to us. What I asked is why a person like you, who seems an educated person, doesn't dedicate all his time to improve his country's situation, instead of taking care of other people's problems. I cannot imagine myself reading avidly Lebanese newspapers and writing to them about THEIR problems, for a long period of time. I wouldn't be interested and moreover I wouldn't think it's my right to do so, especially if I knew my own country is not something to be proud about.

Sorry, Tosefta. Gallup writes: "averaging all polls from 1993-1999 and comparing these with all polls conducted since 2000, the average level of sympathy for Israelis rose from 41% to 53%, while the average level of sympathy for Palestinians rose from 13% to 16%. Moreover, most recently Gallup wrote in March of 2007: "Clearly as Americans have moved out of the 'no preference' columns they have moved disproportionately into the pro-Israeli column."

When you see a title with a phrase you may take a gander to see if it refers to another that is already up....in so doing you may understand what it is all about. the title of #72 is Spoiled brat? Sibling jealousy? It's clear to me that this post was a reply to an earlier one, so apply your rudder and steer over before commenting.

North Korea seems to be the place for you,it's where the Wise Men in grey uniforms pontificate and the unwashed ones listen agape. It's only your pondering over the collected works of Comrade Pol Pot which prevents you from seeing Belgium (which you grace with your blessed presence ) is not a coutry which you can show as an example of humanity. Perhaps Sweden,but here another genius like you,Göran Rosenberg is worming his way up in our hearts and minds by spitting on Israel. No competition as yet in North Korea,grab the chance and God Speed to you. Yours Admiring Absolute

Since neither of you is living in Israel I don't think your definition of your morality is relevant.

Nazi blamed Jews for all problems in Germany, now "civilized" nations blame Israel for the world problems. What is disturbing is author's galut attitude to such phenomenon.

The article is strong in cause and imperative, although weak in reasoning. One has impression that the main imperative is the straightening Israel's image rather than certain Israeli practices in immediate area and in that of backing-up the indiscriminate support of main powers. The scholars like T. Judth or scholars-publicists like N. Finkelstein wrote tons both on practices and on techniques shaping the Hasbarah narratives. But if they won't contribute to Haaretz, I guess Carlo Strenger is still a bonus in demolishing the most self-detrimental motif of Israel political culture - that of victimhood, which was recycled from Diaspora mentality only after 1967.

Come'on Margie. You are spinning as usual. I know many Israelis and their lives are pretty much unaffected by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They usually joke about it. Even in Sderot the effect of the conflict is limited to the occasional pothole caused by a toy rocket. The situation of the Palestians is incomparable. They have been subjected to a brutal occupation for 40 years. No wonder they don't like you and fight back.

Thank you. :) I was answering the post of someone who called us a 'spoilt child'. I wanted him to know that Israel was being spoiled in another sense than that to which he was referring. forgive me for being a bit obscure.

Israel is probably more integrated and accepted than at any other time in its history. Despite the romantic notions of Israel as the plucky underdog, the author seems to forget the times when Israel was isolated on many more levels. Major corporations would refuse to do business with Israel for fear of offending the Arab League. Several nations, including ones with significant presence like China, India and Spain, did not recognize Israel. Israel is now recognized by everyone except certain Arab and Muslim countries, and even they have informal or de facto ties. Israeli businesses are a vital part of the global economy. I do not discount as completely irrelevant the M&W's of the world. But for the most part, there's more smoke but less fire. You would think from the author that Warren Buffet was investing billions of dollars in Palestine and Israeli leaders were relegated to smuggling cash in suitcases across the border.

Oh Jasmine, now let's not load one more layer of subjective wholesale categorizations on this forum, already buried under the heap of solemn representatives of "us" and dispensers of "them". Your neighbour next door might challenge your belonging to the same Israelis just as well, as it is so common in Israel or in Jewish communities. Why not to keep your "us"/"them" titles for yourself and to actually replying the point Tosefta made. You do assume that "they" can make a more valid point then one of "us"? Or it is the fact of discordance that makes one of "us" one of "them" automatically? Give reason a chance, Jasmine. If we for some reason can't, then at least let's give no chance to tribal "reasoning".

Nice post yours but about what did you write? About prof Strenger's article? Doesn't sound so at all. He said nothing about being spoilt, didn't use the word, and refered to nothing you write in your post. I am in the strange position to agree with both of you while you seem to be disgusted by him.

you need to study jewish history. for the past 2,000 years and before we have been defeated, the jewish state destroyed and we have been scattered to the 4 corners of the earth. where was god at that time when we were real jews not the sinning secular jews of today??

"a solid majority of Americans (58%) say their sympathies lie with the Israelis and only 20% say their sympathies are more with the Palestinians. This is according to Gallup's annual World Affairs survey, updated Feb. 1-4, 2007.. The total percentage of Americans viewing Israel favorably fell slightly between last year and today -- from 68% to 63% -- while favorable views of Palestine increased slightly, from 11% to 16%." - GALLUP NEWS SERVICE "Oh, I know, the propagandists will tell us that polling data are not reliable; that is not surprising, since they are invested in propaganda and detest verifiable empirical data." - Daybreak You need to know how to read polls. Before you read the numbers you need to read the question asked. After you have read the results, think about whether they make sense in view of the situation. You will then realize that, under the present situation, when Israel is COMPARED with the Palestinians, sympathy for Israel will grow, and this is because the West is getting fed up with the Muslim world in general. But when Israel stands by ITSELF, sympathy towards it is DECREASING because nobody needs this trouble.

First you disagree with Cipora about the invite to A-D at Columbia (which means you and I were in violent agreement), and now it's Natalie Durson, of all people? but yes, her comment was good - looking after longer term interests can't hurt. i rather liked the article also - good summary of things that are being sacrificed in pursuit of a few more inches of land while allied with a loser of a president that's not likely to be so useful in the long run. Unfortunately, I'm not so sure Barak is the same as he once was either. maybe we could lend you guys Obama - several democratic candidates look pretty good to me, so can spare one. Now please don't go too far to the left too fast. can leave one rather breathless....

Israel would surely on the path to becoming a pariah state. The US will follow a couple of seconds behind it, as her "nanny". A perfect couple 'til the end. BRAVO, baby.

So Mr. Strenger, I think I understand your argument that if the government took the danger of the becoming a pariah state to the West seriously, then they would behave differently. I guess that means in your opinion we would have fewer problems with Arabs and thus fewer problems with public opinion. But considering I view you as not a complete fool or a racist, I assume you believe that Arabs are truthful when they admit that they will never acquiessnce to a Jewish State and will fight it forever, thus, the conclusion that I come up with is the only way there can be peace in your mind is a bi-national state and in mind is the peace of the crematoria.

"discontents" roll it slowly along the tongue.does it resonate?is it poetic?does it bear repatition? well tveira man thinks so.he has repeated the word 245 times.i am keeping score.

Are Qassams a long term or short term threat?

You say 'we' and 'our'. If you ever were an Israeli you are no longer one of us. You personally might have gone beyond morality and rationality, as you insist that you have. Please don't include the rest of us in your personal point of view. You talk about being a 'scholar' but your observations are far from scholarly. There's a pathetic insistence on your own point of view.

Israel-- Out of over 20+ countries surveyed...was the most hated country out of all of them. Second-- Was Iran. Third-- Was the United States (my country). It Is Israel/Jews-- Who are behind events regarding how they are viewed. Israel Isn't "On The Way" It HAS ALREADY ARRIVED At Being Considered A Pariah State-- You don't get that hated (even with the "War On Terror" which they probably believe gives them the ultimate advantage with the world)...without being considered that/something very negative. People know what Israel does to the Palestinians & others...& think it's heinous/don't agree (& know the trouble around the world this causes)! Of Course Jews/Israel-- Will probably say it's all about Anti-Semitism (the usual self-blinding/not dealing with reality mechanism)....& nothing more. That Is Why-- This article says "On the way"...instead of "Is now". Which doesn't reflect the real level of concern needed.

harzion, maybe you are posting your blanket-evaluations concerning Europe by mistake to some Europe-related forum? For in the present article the word "Europe" appears one single time, along with US: "A growing number of decision makers in Europe and the U.S. think that Israel, while not necessarily the main cause for the rise of Political Islam, has become a symbol around which Islamist extremism coalesces - and there is good evidence for this." Could you give me the link to the article and thread you think you're posting to. I wanted to learn what terrible story Europe got involved into. Or else, reconsider the relevance of your private sentiments to Europe to this context and subject.

Your analysis has gone haywire. There's no connection between hitler and Israel except hitler tried to do to Israel what you clearly have in mind for us. You insult without knowing or understanding. You couldn't be more wrong, but then you probably get all your information from the local media and its bias.

well not exactly SA, Israel is better than SA but it is still an apartheid. It is called a jewish state and it has got different rules from conscription to land ownership, from the tearly payment to Arabs schools and Jewish schools, for its arab and jewish citizens (even if we ignore what Israel does to the Palestinians, it is still an apartheid). Israel tags its arab citizens with yellow tags at the airports, its politicians say things like "arab population is a threat to the future" and never prosecuted. I am not from a very democratic country either but c'mon, even in Turkey a prime minister can not say stuff like that.

"Does anyone know of any specific goals as to where the nation of Israel wants to be in 10 years or in 20 years as far as peace and relations with neighbors are concerned?" Israel has only one goal as far as her neighbors are concerned: shall get hold of more land and more water from thi neighbors.

Today, and for as long as we can remember, Israel is being judged not only on Western standards, but on standards that even the West cannot meet. Israel is held to some high moral standard, even to the point of consternation for acts of self-defense against a very group that is held to NO standards whatsoever and despite the massive abuses of human rights of its own people, are still funded by the world...lest they not be politically correct. While I do support a State FOR Palestinians (along side Israel) and the right of Israel to exist in the world, I also support holding Arab states (especially Palestinians) to high standards rather than a double standard. Demanding an academic boycott of Israel but supporting Pals "rights" to kill civilians is a perversion of these standards...and nothing less than an act of hostile racism.

Please, tell me it's not her... In short, Carlo Strenger's article is excellent. Would that Barak, our only existing hope, and the only intelligent person in the government, should ponder upon this article!

First came the Occupation, as a result of the unexpected war in 1967. Israel was not of one mind about what to do with the New Territories. Some wanted to absorb all of them, and some only wanted to keep part of them By 1977, with the Likud rise to dominance, the issue was decided: Keep them all. Occupation breeds Re, and Resistance breeds Suppression. After the First Intifada it became clear to some Israelis that the best solution would be to get rid of the Metzia, but still keep some part, although smaller than what was envisioned earlier. We are still in this process of releasing ourselves from the Metzia, but now fully embroiled in the Resistance/Suppression cycle, our minds already gone beyond morality and rationality. We have to bring this chapter to a quick close.

I already feel that Israel has created enough haterd in the region with mindless killings and manipulations over the years. What is worse that its attitude is similar to hitlers mindset. hitler used to torture before killing, israel insults before killing. I feel the 'insult' factor will linger on for quite long. path ahead might be troublesome.. And USA might have its own trouble given its increasing social disparity after WTO. that may spell internal disaster for US itself. nothing to do with Israel. Russia has bounched back, but China and India will put enough demand on oil that it will hv serious implications on current economic norms.. combine it with enormous information at everyone hand and old world order can be in serious trouble... oops.. my analysis has gone haywire :) can someone suggest better world order :-/

Most of the brutal regimes in the region, including Israel, are creations of former colonial empires. Israel was meant as a wedge like Ulster in the region. Israel will not become an outcast regime so long as the US funds it. That is the key problem for Israel - the US empire is floundering and they might blame Israel for sinking it.

Stengler is right that Israel doesn't give the report enough attention, although countering it successfully is just "proof" to the arabist apologists that the contents are true. You see what Israel does have to do is show her moral fibre and the strength of her ethics, her purity of arms which is UNMATCHED by any country in her situation. Therer are no Western countries that have daily rocket attacks, daily attempts by homicide bombers, and that's just the tip of the ice-berg. The west doesn't need robots checking people going into malls and markets, the west doesn't need public transport with "bomb enclosures" to minimize the carnage of a homicide bomber. daily rocket attacks on Houston, Swansea, Reims would be met with what? yeah, be proud of Israel's morality, and let the arabs thank their lucky stars

Chris Linthwaite, there isn't for Jews but there is one for Palestinians made for them by the Jews and it is separated by a huge 30-foot high concrete wall. All the good guys on one side and all the others on the other side.

My earlier post should read Gallup polling data, not Harris polling data.

an eloquent message to all at talkback ! however when a contributor comes up with a post that illustrates education , practicallity and common sense i wil be the first to praise him! it is haaretz that should be diligent but isnt and its torrent of anti israel articles do not help ! nor do a mass of nameless anti semites hiding behind pseudonyms !

I thought there was no Hell in the Jewish faith?

This Ha'aretz forum compares poorly with mainstream similar ones in Europe who all operate a strict policy on personal abuse. Ha'aretz appears to turn a blind eye to this or merely fails to post up calls for a proper application of its own rules for this forum. It is symptomatic of the moral ccorruption Israeli debate suffers from, that posters you mention consistently fail to offer logical reasoned challenges to the content, but villify the reporter or pour abuse and scorn on other, more moderate posters. I guess their behaviour reflects the way the hardliners emote (the verb 'think' does not apply), who would rather have victory than peace, land and water than international co-operation. If this zenophobic and racist course is pursued then Israel will once again be quarantined by other nations, as it was following 1967,

This is evidence of being spoilt? Missiles flung at our civilians day after day Exploding persons attacking our schoolchildren in discoteques, buses pizzerias, busses, celebrations, weddings, busses, at parties, in busses, restaurants, bakeries. This is certainly a spoiled people. Every neighbour having waged war against us. Very spoilt. Never a quiet day, knowing you have to be constantly on the alert. Oh, so spoilt. Our captured soldiers cruelly kept in cages for thirty years without the Geneva conventions provisions being observed. Oh, how spoilt we are. Half our salaries and our taxes going on defense. Spoilt indeed. Our children, being subject to two or three years military training and life and death operations. VERY VERY SPOILT. I wish it all, all of it, on our detractors.

India occupies Kashmir.They have some 25000 soldiers there. Kashmir has never threatened India with destruction Is India considered a "pariah state"?NO. China occupies Thibet.They have even expulsed its leader,the Dalai-Lama,who now lives in the USA. The Thibetans have never threatened China with destruction. Is China considered a "pariah state"?NO. Only Israel is considered a "pariah state",although the Palestinians and almost all the Arab countries surrouding it-and not only these-continuously threaten it with destruction. Because,as someone has said,"Israel is the Jew among the nations" And we,Jews,have always been considered pariahs. Don't you think,dear professor Stenger,that this attitude must end somehow? Enough with your appeasement..

The 2006 (most recent) Pew Global Attitudes Project found that public opinion support for Israel is rising not just in America but Europe as well. "In past Global Attitudes Surveys the American public's strong pro-Israel stance set its apart from other countries. But that has changed as Germans, in particular, have become much more sympathetic to Israel in its dispute with the Palestinians." The poll shows the French and other countries have become more sympathetic to Israel. Harris polling data on American support for Israel shows it is currently on the rise. ("Palestinian-Israeli dispute engenders American sympathy for Israelis." (Feb., March 2007). By contrast, a 2006 Gallup poll found that when Americans were asked what they admired most about Muslim countries the most common response was "nothing" (32%). Oh, I know, the propagandists will tell us that polling data are not reliable; that is not surprising, since they are invested in propaganda and detest verifiable empirical data.

The facts on the ground is that the Arab States have the oil, and we need it to run our oil based economies. Whatever you or I think about Islam is semantics the facts on the ground speak for themselves. As China's and India's economies grow along with their appetite for oil. Western governments including the United States are going to become closer to Arab governments as the squeeze on oil resources occurs. As this squeeze bwecomes more pronounced the importance of the Arab lobby will grow, that of the Israeli government will diminish. It's the economy stupid.

"the day we are no longer judged by the standards of the West is the beginning of Israel's end" WRONG. The day the West is judged by the standards expected of Israel, will be the beginning of a Just world

How else can one describe a country that murders children on their way to school and then claims that soldiers only shot into the ether. May all oppressive countries perish. May their names be damned and memories eraised.