New disorder in Gaza

Muslims say that what the book says is what good Muslims have to do. They say, and that has been said on these boards too, that what the Qu'ram says cannot be changed because it is the last revelation and so it has to remain so. I am not dishonesty, intellectually or whatever. i said here that I have read the Qu'ram not in English and I am not a good translator, so I copied what I sent here, and that doesn't change anything: they have to kill and that's it. "that person is guilty not only of intellectual dishonesty, but of methodical slander." Don't mistake others for yourself. That's what you do. You deny reality. Are you Goebbels or Lenin-Stalin school?

"I don`t see much difference between Kim`s truncated versions and your full-text versions of quotations from the Koran. " - Jeff Northridg Then you would think that Jesus taught :"Blessed are the those who make Wamongers ." And that Moses brought down a tablet which read "thou shalt (. . .) Kill." At the very best those who selectively edit religious texts to prove their ideological points are guilty of showing less respect for those texts than I - an agnostic at best - show. At worst they are guilty of depraving those texts to 'prove' that which can only be 'proved' by lying - which is a lie itself. "Jesus damned a fig tree because it bore no fruit and the fig tree died. Does that mean that a husband has a right to knock off his wife because she is barren? Most people would say, "No", but there are some Christian fanatics who say, "Yes"" - Jeff Agreed. I don't have a clue about what the account is about. the best I can do is try to put the entire biblical account of Jesus into as coherent and consistent a vantage point as I can. And that is the best I can do for any of the word's great religions.

Daniel, Have you ever read and understoond what the Bible (OT) says about King Souliman and the two women asking for the same baby? Which one was the true mother? Could you tell?

"Have you read the book? Ihave." - Kim Yes, long ago, when I was very young and thought I might learn something of live, the world, and the universe. I wished that I could find a common denominator, a common ground, in the great religions. If you have read the Koran, and offered the blatantly edited excerpts you have presented, then you must be guilty of either a reading with intent to slander, or a most superficial reading without the slightest degree of comprehension. Did it ever register in your mind that the Book of Repentance is the ONLY one that does not start with the iteration "in the name of Allah the Beneficent, the Merciful? Do you have a clue what I am trying to suggest? I do not think so Kim. I think that you are obsessed with a hatred for Islam that I - one who does not believe in any middle eastern fertility cult - am lacking.

"We know that that book was written in certain circumstances of the past. If it was past, it would be no problem. But it happens that what the Koran says is valid today." - Kim Fine point. And an evasion . When someone, as you did, repeatedly choses to take parts of a sentence and represent them - not only as parts of a sentence, but as proofs of a whole - that person is guilty not only of intellectual dishonesty, but of methodical slander. I am not a 'believer' in any religion. Yet I do not feel that it is honorable to let anyone slander any of the worlds great religions.

Because they are merely "edifices"! Tell us how you are against double standards!

Howdy West; I believe that by the word "country", Kim is referring to that part of a futuristic Palestinian state known today as the "Gaza Strip" with borders as defined by the Egyptian-Israeli Territorial Exchange Agreement of 1950. The chances are high that the Gaza Strip will break away from the PA and form a separate country from the West Bank similar to East Pakistan breaking away from West Pakistan and forming the independent country of Bangladesh. However, I have pointed this out several times in the past, but I can't even get the Palestinian supporters to adamantly deny the possibility. Perhaps they recognize that it could very well happen which would flush the dream of a united Palestinaian state down the toilet.

.....in fact the land that ended up under Arab control was ?freed? from all Jewish presence ( Did not know that ASSAM?) Hebron for instance had an important Jewish presence before 1948 but none from 1948 to 1967. ( what about that ASSAM?) .. The Arabs went on to descecarate the Jewish holly sites and destroy their synagoges.. right Assam?.. the displaced Jews where received in Israel.. displaced Palestinians where put in camps by their Arab brothers ( as attested by the fact that there are no refugee camps inside the green line? i.e. Israel did not built them Arabs did)? By the way, such massive human displacements are not unique to the situation, you know ASSAM? durring India- Pakistan partition simmilar displacement of musslims and indus took place.. but why should this matter after all muslims have problems with the Indus too.. right ASSAM? Germas from Silecia where deported to make room for Poles after Loosing WWII, did you know ASSAM??) And the history of the Palestinians has been ever since a series of rejections, failures to compromise, endorsement of terror etc etc : Arab League at Khartoum rejected a land for peace in the after mat of 1967, what about that ASSAM? , and so forth until more recent times Arafat rejects Camp David and launches a terrorist offensive violating all his commitments..(I am sure ASSAM will now tell us a sad story justifying these actions.. and of course he will believe it.. this is part of the problem they do not see wrong in their behavior? and they expect Israel to trust them???) Again in Taba the failure to compromise and the continuation of incitement and promotion of terror?. And so the story goes on?. And on?. and of course the Palestinians suffer ? why? ?. because they are not engaged in building.. just in destroying?, they never accepted compromise and peace so they have poverty and failure? and war?..and to come to today, we have Sharem a Sheik where Abbas committed to dismantling terror organizations, but then changed his mind?. Right ASSAM??it is just the latest of their failures? no ASSAM? Do you understand ASSAM?.. or you need me to explain it more slowlly????.ASSAM?. So you can be sure Assam, I will keep educating the people that want to understand.. and to this end I will avail myself of all the elements you and your fellow Arabs provide?. And believe me when they see they understand what are we dealing with?.. Oh yes it becomes clear and transparent?. ASSAM? So thanks for the tip on the site HAVE A NICE DAY

ASSAM Challenged me to go to a certain web site and see the postings that according to him represent the views of 4.5 million anti-Semites: Palestinians that, he said are victims of Israel and of the Jews in general.... Well Assam You can bet I will? I have used such sites, many press releases from the Arab world promoting hate, speeches by Palestinian figures calling for Jihad and martyrdom , the books used by the Palestinian Authority educating , not for peace but for violence and hate, etc to illustrate and educate people to what are we up against. I will not deny the Palestinians have suffered; they are mostly ( not 100% ) to blame for it themselves. Why, you might ask ASAAM? well the story is not so hard if you pay attention: There were two groups of people with a certain claim to a certain land? one group was made of the descendents of the ancient inhabitants of the land, who had their country taken from them by force by a powerful European Empire, and had suffered terribly ever since: The Jews. The other group was made out of the descendents of all the empires that had taken that land by force one from the other?. Of course these people can not be blamed for the actions of their ancestors, and one must recognize that many of them might have been brought there against their will in ancient times, to be slaves or work the land of the powerful?. The point is that the two groups had substantiated claims to the land, there was no precedent and no law to decide what to do.. so the world made a decision: to partition the land? was not perfect and no group was to receive all what it wanted.. but it was a compromise, and a recipe for a peaceful resolution. The problem was of course that while one group was willing to accept a compromise the other was not. It wanted all of it even if that meant war.. and WAR it was? Palestinians where displaced.. and Jews where displaced ..

Now you are in real trouble. Peres says there should be no further negotiations unless you can actually govern yourselves in Gaza! Another fresh, brilliant idea from Labor.

Sorry, I thought you were living in the PA territories. So it is them who have to do it but their friends will give a hand , I suppose. Look at the mess they have there.

Hi Boruch, khalid is not alone among the Palestinians and Arabs. And thats our challange how to evercome this prejudice. I venture to estimate that 99 % of Palestinians and Arabs think the same way as Khalid. I deal in Canada with many customers who use my engineering software. Most are engineers with PhD's and many are professors.They all got their advanced degrees in Canada or USA and live and work here for over 30 years. And yet, they actively are involved in Islamic organizations. Not one among close to 100 people among them is expresses any flexibilty or willingness to compromise about Israel. NOT ONE. Prof. El Masry is the Head of Canadian Islamic Congress. He was interviewed on TV Ontario about terrorism. he deplored the terror results of 9/11, but hastened to explain that it was provoked by Western policies. He went a step further: HE JUSTFIED the PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBERS!!!. The program moderator, Michael Coren asked him to repeat the statement and he did. It is necessary to resort to bombing of any Israeli 18 years and older because they serve in IDF. He never really retracted that interview statement by claimed that it was taken out of content.Yet, it was clearly what he said on Corens program. Another activist, fairly friendly with me for a while, who was for a time the VP of the Quebec Arab federation, , Mr Ehab Lotayeff, wrote in the Montreal gazette, on Dec 8,2001, that in his riding of the Town of Mont Royal (Montreal) Irvin Cotler,a Jew and the Minister of Justice in Canada, " does not represent the riding, because he there are also Moslems and Christians in town of Mont Royal and Cotler does not critizise the Israeli actions against the Palestinians" You must understand that after 20 to 30 years in Canada those leaders do not understand the working of democracy and never learned to compromise with other ethnic and religious people in Canada. So if the educated elite among Arabs is so hostile and hateful to Jews and Israel how can we expect the broader masses, which are fed daily the diet of hate by Arab newspapers, radio and TV. Khalid is a product of this daily brainwashing by Arab media and Arab leaders. He can not help it. It is like in the Pavlovian experiment with dogs who respond to a bell as a feeding signal.( Before Khalid reacts : Pavlov used dogs in his study of reflex. nothing personal) Khalid response is an involuntary reflex. He was fed from childhood this diet of hate. he can't change. We are in for a long multi-generational conflict with the Palestinians and Arabs. Just see the reaction of PA today. They will boycott the handover ceremonies, because Israel has Erez crossing few meters past the line which PA claims should be the border with Israel. Do you grasp this mentality. After 38 years 99.999999 percent of Gaza is evacuated by Israel. A normal nation would have celebrate and showed a positive expression of joy. But PA and the Palestinians again show the true character. If they would be more educated they would create a Slogan ( we want everything back down to last Nanometer. Meanwhile they started killing individual leaders to settle internal scores (Mussa Arafat for example)

Kim, "You wanted independence, here you have. Now start working to make a living and to improve your country" What country are you talking about?

Hey khalid, I personally don't have any land in Israel or Palestine. I support the creation of a VIABLE palestinian state... I just asked an honest question in which exactly the same dimension and quality of land would be returned to the PA, so DIMENSION and QUALITY wise it would be the same 100%. What's the harm on that? I'd like to see the parts comming closer together and I think if Israel or the PA don't NEGOTIATE there will be no peace... both sides loose! About the 78% and this is also an honest question does that include Israel proper? I mean Tel Aviv, and 1947 partition lines... Because if that's so I don't think we are in the same page. I support a palestinian state and you call UN partition Israel a stolen land? Please answer as clear as possible. I am not trying to attack you or palestinian people (hopefully you can get that from my tone). I am just trying to understand what is your position... And please don't call me a thief again I don't think is fair for you to pass judgement on me without even knowing me! Peace...(soon, hopefully)

WHAT WITHDRAWAL? Name: AZZAM ?WOW! if this is independence for Gaza I must be having vision problems. because I cannot see freedom in Gaza. I see the old nasty israeli occupation but with a new face and fewer jails, but one big jail for all Gazans.? Where is now the occupation? The residents have left and the IDF will leave in a few days. Why is there not freedom and why is there occupation? You are determined to continue to put the blame on others for the problems you create yourselves. You wanted independence, here you have. Now start working to make a living and to improve your country. If then there is no freedom the blame will be on your authorities. Go and protest against them.

Howdy Mark; I don't see much difference between Kim's truncated versions and your full-text versions of quotations from the Koran. Everbody knows that religious fanatics of any stripe will take a passage out of their sacred book which may have been applicable in some particular circumstance and try to apply it in a much broader context. For example, Jesus damned a fig tree because it bore no fruit and the fig tree died. Does that mean that a husband has a right to knock off his wife because she is barren? Most people would say, "No", but there are some Christian fanatics who say, "Yes".

Israel must leave 100% of the West Bank as well, or else there will be no peace Name: Khalid ?Israel gave Egypt 100% of Sinai for peace. Israel gave Jordan 100% of its occupied territories for peace.? ...... Israel had taken those territories from Egypt and Jordan,which were occupying them. Israel took those territories in a course of a war which those countries had declared. ...... ?Israel is leaving 100% of the Gaza strip.? And the Arabs should be grateful because it is a gift. That territory was never of the Neverlanders. ?Now, Israel must leave 100% of the West Bank as well.? Ultimatum. If this condition isn?t met then there will be war: ?without ending the occupation there, including first and foremost East Jerusalem, there will be no peace and many people, Jews and Muslims, will die in vain?? They are determined to continue war. Did they say that they want to live in peace? Who said they are trustworthy? ?Why in vain? because everybody knows that sooner or later Israel will have to leave the West Bank. so why the bloodshed?? And after that, it will be the whole Israel. We know it because it is proclaimed by the clerics in sermons broadcast by the PA, and because it is the aim written in the Charters of Hamas and Fatah.

Muslim leaders and clerics are calling jihad based upon the ?holy? book. There are sermons all around the world encouraging the believers to jihad in order to spread the Umma everywhere: in Europe, in the US, in Asia... Terrorist attacks are committed worldwide with the same aim. Leaders, clerics, terrorist speak out their intention and where their decision are based upon, the Koran. The murderer of van Gogh declared before the Tribunal which tried him: I didn?t hate him but I had to do it because it is my duty as a Muslim. Muslim clerics launched a fatwa against Rushdi. The writer has been lucky so far, not so his translator, who was murdered years ago. Is there any fatwa against bin Laden or any of the other terrorists? What is being a good Muslim? Is it to make jihad or to speak out and to denounce the murderers? Where are the fatwas? Where are the rallies of Muslims against terror? ... Who are the haters? Those who say what is happening, what the sermons by Muslim cleric are about? Those who express their outrage for the murder of innocents? And why not those who, by word or by action, perpetrate or support such crimes? Why do some people have so much interest in silencing those who denounce these atrocities? Cannot they see them? Why do they feel outraged when somebody speaks? No argument can rebute reality. And those trying to make white what is black, or trying to silence us are just exposing themselves.

Khalid, if you want Jews to leave Judea and Samaria, then please get out of Israel. Siting in Israel, enjoing all Israeli benefits and calling for etnic cleansing of Jews is low. -Boruch

they are brilliant actually Azzam !!!! the jews have taken more nobel peace prizes that any other people !! - by far- 156 out of 740 --- the moslems? 6 not bad considering there are 12 million jews ! how many moslems? 102 billion ? maybe you are just jealous of their success ??

CLEAN SWEEP IS THE NAME OF THE FUTURE.Arafat's corruption is still hanging like a toxic cloud over the PA.Your problem is not Israel but the PA itself.Not only do you need to get rid of all of Arafat's hand lickers but also you need to immediatly change the education from preaching hatred and death to just plain ,simple life loving and coexisting with others..Time to get rid of the repulsive habbit to always blame others.No one buys it anymore.

Have you read the book? Ihave. And it says that you have to spread Islam killing the other people. If you don't have read it, you should before interpreting the intentions of others. If you have read it, it is you who is trying to hide something and take the people in.

It is not like you say.

CORRECT.IT IS MOSTLY THE ARABS IN THIS FORUM WHO PULL RABBITS FROM THEIR HATS AND USE GRANDMOTHER STORIES AS FACTS.SO TYPICAL TO BLAME SOMEONE ELSE FOR WHAT THE DO.

We know that that book was written in certain circumstances of the past. If it was past, it would be no problem. But it happens that what the Koran says is valid today.

Howdy Fargo; In a few more days, there will be no more Israeli settlers or troops in the Gaza Strip. The whole world is watching about what will happen next. Will the Gazans fall into chaos? Will they continue the Intifada because of the West Bank? Will they put up their guns and work to better themselves? In the latter case, there is tons of international aid and investment money that will provide jobs, build power plants, and resolve the water crisis. However, if the Gazans opt for continued conflict, then nobody is going to be willing to help. I hope that the Gazans will have the sense to make the right choices, but I have my doubts. The next six months should be interesting.

STOP TRYING TO FEED US YOUR CRAP OF "HAMAS WILL DISAPPEAR IF WE GIVE AND GIVE!" YOUR APPETITE IS A DANGEROUS ONE! BE CAREFUL WITH YOUR WORDS!

Nothing like folks chopping up quotes to manufacture what they want them to say. "Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim`s "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101)" - Kim's fragment Total Verse: "And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail your worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you." Surah V:101 At the time this Surah was written, the followers of Muhammad were at WAR. Got it? The verse tells Muslims that they may neglect their worship if it is necessary to protect themselves from being persecuted. "Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere"" - Kim's quote The fragment, from the Book of Repentance, which was from one of the bloodiest periods of struggle between Muhammad and the pagan Arabs, does not refer to Jews or Christians. It should be read in context of the preceding and following verses, but here is the single verse: "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idol wherever you find the, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." Surah IX:5 They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90)." - Kim's perversion Here is the total verse, instead of the perversion that Kim presented: "Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or those who come unto you because their hearts forbid them to war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold alooft from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them. Surah IV:90 ""Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193)" - Kim's version The whole verse: "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers." Surah II:193 "Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29)." - Kim's edition The last verse of Surah XLVIII is a long one, and she chose to quote only part of one sentence. The whole sentence reads: "And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful amongst themselves." Remember folks, this was a period where there was open warfare between the old religious establishment and the Muslims. "- They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)" - Kim's Cut The entire verse: "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degredation in the world, and in the hereafter theirs will be an awful doom." Surah V:33 Kim has perpetrated a hatchet job on the text to make it appear to say what she wants it to say. Her citations, edited as they were, amount to a lie motivate by hatred, and revealing a significant degree of intellectual dishonesty.

If you think it is Western Media which has influenced my opinions, my friend, you are SO incorrect. Actually it is the words of the Palestinians themselves. Google is a great tool. *wink* After each terrorist bombing, it is easy to read the words of the Palestinians themselves, in the Jewish Press, in the Arab press, etc. Believe me, it is the words of the Palestinians who have given me reason to shudder. After each bombing, (except for rare exceptions)parents, family members, those in the community have such great praise for their "martyr". You may have no idea how this sounds outside the Arab world which high-fives because some "Jews" are murdered, but trust me on this -- it turns our stomach. Trust me on this -- the Palestinian response to a Jerusalem bus being blown apart is even more stomach turning than the actual barbarity itself. I am not ignorant of the fact that these murderers of innocents are endorsed in your society by having many institutions and areas named after them. I know that there are good and evil people on both sides. There are evil Jews, and that there are decent Palestinians. It is the larger societies as a whole that interest me. Yes, unless the Palestinians outlaw their terrorist groups, the Palestinian society accepts and endorses their murder. It's as simple as that. All one has to do is compare Israel's reaction to their barbaric terrorist murderer of a few weeks ago, to the Palestinian's reaction to their myriad terrorist murderers. One society praises terrorists, one side does not. I'm not ignorant. I've been to MEMRI. I know the intense burning hatred preached by some of your clerics. I know some the hatred some of your children are taught. My goodness! Do you have any idea what that is like for some of us to hear? If my child returned home from her children's worship service or from summer camp and sang songs about hating Arabs or Muslims or Palestinians -- I'd be livid!! Besides running down to clock the cleric upside the head that taught my child to hate, I'd also raise a ruckus with every authority I could get my hands on. You can blame Israel all you wish on teaching your child to hate. But that's the easy way out. It is the society that teaches its children values. I wish that the Palestinians would obsess with values as much as they do with "borders". -- Gina

The Arabs should stop attacking Israel.

dont hold your breath

you had all the rights you needed. You left in 1948 so your "brothers" could slaughter the jews...remember? ask your dad ! You did not suceed and you tried another 5 wars, 2 intifahdas countless fedayeen raids...... and again you said no in 2000 to Baraks gernerous offer. The palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss another opportunity. Defeat is bitter, and now you are left with squalor.... its sad !

Since you are from Gaza, I'd like to say that I hope your all your communities prosper -- economically, legally, spirtually, morally. I hope that the Palestinians can demonstrate that your people have the ability to run a clean society and can demonstrate that you have gifts and talents to share with the world. It would be awesome to discover a few years from now that all of you were the inspiration for other Arab societies to begin reformation processes to gain new or additional freedoms. Gina

Howdy Khalid; Do I detect a slight shift in your insistence that the border between Israel and the West Bank is the old Green Line? The UN in UNSCR 242 and reaffirmed by UNSCR 338 left it up to the belligerant parties to decide exactly where the border is. Nobody is going to decide this from outside. It is up to the Israelis and Palestinians alone to come to an agreement on where the border is. If that takes decades, then it takes decades, but don't try going to the UN to bail you out--they have already decided the issue and have deliberately left it vague.

Kim, I've been following your post for a few days now. Do you have a plan soon to post some constructive comments on how you would solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And have you ever been to the ME or any arab countries to have such radical comments?

Fargo, Coming from the best country in the world ,trust me, democracy is not the solutions to all the problems. Here's an anectode: What is common between a democracy and communist country or dictatorship: Uor leaders lies to us. What is the difference between a democracy and a communist country or dictatorship: The people from the communist country or dictatorship know it. The people from a democaracy are not aware of it. Also, it is amazing how easy democracies attracts corrupted people. It is not a cure to everything but indeed ONLY a step in the right direction. Our evil neighboors from the south ar a good example. Everytime they have a chance to screw canadians, they jump on it.

I think you're wrong if you think the Palestinians have embraced terrorism, what happened is a natural consequence to the Israeli occupation which was so heavy handed. I do admit that sometimes there are moments of unorganised chaos but shortly after they vanish.Life went smoothly with us at the beginning until Israel refused to admit our rights, the result this bloody Intifada which cost both sides too much.I hope Israel will spare us another Intifada and give back our rights as soon as possible.

I'm so sorry to tell you that 99% of PLO men are corrupt. The right thing to do is to have general elections to prove to the whole world that we are able to bear the responsibility and we have good intentions to participate in this world. I do agree with the clean sweep but it can't happen overnight, it needs fair elections if we want things to go right for us. Well said by you.I think you touched the reality and spared me the time to explain all these facts. Once again I thank you for your faith.

Mr. Khalid, With all due respect there was not one derogatory name calling in my response to you. Had you bothered to befreind Istraelis, you would know that "Palabra" is used by native israelis as a slang when some one else is talking too uch nonsens.like you do in your comments in Haratez. It was adopted from Spanish. "Palabra" means a simple talk in Spanish. I guess I hit the nail on the head, because it touched your nerve. Read it again and again. until it will sink in. Practice makes perfect. Some people need more practise th4an other people. In Canada we give to slow learners Ritalin. Sorry, you need a doctors prescription to get it. I am sure that Teva or other pharmaceutical company in israel manufucters Ritalin. This is as close as it gets to name calling. Bet it??? Check it out Mr Khalid. si

I think you are finally starting to get it. From reading your posts I had thought you were a rather cold hearted idealogue, lacking in compassion and empathy, but maybe you can see things from someone else's point of view. In an earlier post, for another article you wrote: "It amazes me how many Israelis, even peace-seeking ones like Ami Ayalon, end up believing their own propaganda about not having a partner for peace." You are stumbling on to the truth. They do believe it. They believe it to their soul. It isn't made up for political reasons. They really, sincerely, believe it. (When you believe something that sincerely, it really isn't propoganda is it?) You can't understand why they believe it. You haven't gotten that far, but at least now you know that they do.

And worse for the Palestinians, -- the UN is about to undergo reformation. Very Soon --- No longer will savage terrorists be labled "freedom fighters". A few weeks, a few months, and soon the UN will firmly state terrorism for the barbarity is it and give no justifications for it. Just another example of how the world is repulsed by savage terrorist acts. Gina

And besides 07 Two Jews injured by stones thrown at them in Silwan in East Jerusalem (Israel Israel leaves Gaza but the Neverlanders go ahead with their "business".

I don't live in Israel. I live in the US. And believe what you wish -- but the civilized world lost all sympathy for the Palestinians once they embraced terrorism. Yes, we wish for the Palestinians to succeed in Gaza. But our greatest concern is the safety and security of Israel's citizens. Thus, the security fence built day by day. The day the Palestinians as a society embrace goodness and moral decency is the day the Palestinians will gather additional allies. -- Gina

"The state of affairs in Gaza, INCLUDING THE LATEST KIDNAPPING OF AN ITALIAN JOURNALIST, is symptomatic of the malaise affecting the entire Middle East." [My caps. - Yonatan] Won't help, Kalid. How about the murfer of Moussa Arafat? I quote from the Ha'aretz editorial: "The Abbas government has been shown to lack any ability to impose law and order and to meet the challenge posed by the armed groups, which are working to advance personal interests, even at the expense of the general welfare." This has nothing to do with 1 or 12 journalists, Ahmed, it has to do with the dysfunctionality of Arab and Muslim societies. "

You're right that Muslims killed Muslims but who was the mastermind of all this? It was Ramsfield, the present American minister of defense. I do agree that Saddam Hussein was so stupid when he went in war with Iran for the sake of the Americans otherwise the Americans fought for themselves. It hurts me much that those American soldiers fall in Iraq every now and then.I think they're the right persons in the wrong place for unworthy people. It's time to stop this crazy war and think of international peace, peace for all, solving our problems through dialogues.

Andy, you have a point... many Isarelis and many Jews would have agreed to some negotiated solution like Camp David or Taba..... but that was then and this is now.... the problem is that we where forced by events, to change our perecption of the Palestinan side: their betrayal of agreements, their resort to terrorism (which they had promise to stop and erradicate), the call of their leaders for Jihad and Martyrdom ( meaning blowing up Isarelis in the streets, coffe-shops, buses and restaurants, the eulogy of terror ( covering their towns with the pósters of terrorists) their financing of terror operations ( remember Arafat's signed documets authorizing explosives and support of terrorists?) their absolute failure to keep any commitment ( remenber taht ship the Katherina bringing weapons from Iran?) the release of terrorists from palestinain jails....etc etc Well, this all changed our appreciation of the other.. my previous views where more hopefull and trusty.. but I have been tought a lesson: I was very naive, and I will not fall for that again!!!.. Moreover, and this is also a sad revelation to me: I saw the world's left.. the European "so called intellectuals¨ took incredibly unethical postures, completely biased positions, to the point that I do not trust them at all.... thus Jews will have to do what the need to do .. these ¨left wingers¨ can talk all they want but they have lost all credibility with people like me. Are you one of these?

But Islamic absolutism has a negative effect on Palestinians,not positive. It cannot be achieved,and they have to languish with the idea instead of letting it go and join instead the family of countries that have dumped their religious tribalism into a secondary role. Fill the void with anything that is to do with compromise and sharing and ditto to Israel's ultra right.

Yonthan...some of our unruly elements kidnapped one or two journalists, but they released them unharmed. But you, the Jewish state of Israel, you murdered 12 journalists...you killed them knowingly and deliberately and in most cases you lied about the murder. so, don't lecture us..clean your house first.

Max Zinger: yes, of course, we all should learn how to live and let live. This is true for both Jews and Muslims and Arabs. I have no problem with this. As to withdrawal from the West Bank, yes, Israel will have to leave the last centimeter of this part of Palestine. If there is disagreement over what constitutes the West Bank, the sides can go for international arbitration. Khalid

J.J., what is the source of your claim that "The Russians have offered the Gaza Palestinians some 50 tanks"? I can't find this anywhere on the internet.

It's the Middle East - people are bound to shout on these talkback fora, but it's a durned-sight better than the pathetic whining and whimpering that you see on the BBC talk-back site. Ugh! What a bunch of whinging losers are they in Britain! That bastard Mahatir looses a broadside (that isn't Jew-hate for once) against the Brits, and, like beaten housewives, they tut-tut each other, saying "we deserve it! We bad!" Risible! Fortunately Britain's leaders are made of (somewhat) sterner stuff, and do not let themselves be bullied by a demagogue, a bigot and a bully. The guy's a buffoon, a clown, not a statesman. But the Brits are fascinated by Fascism/fundamentalism/extremism, when you think about it. Something to do with leading lives devoid of much meaning, I suspect. Exactly the opposite of Israel, when you think of it! Israel has a surfeit of meaning, if anything. Anyway, thanks for reading this. L'Shalom!

Khalid, You shoot your "Bull Shit" and think we will swallow it without seeing your thoughts through. You say that if Isarel gives back every cm of West bank and Gaza and you have Jerusalem as the Capitol of Palestine there will be Peace. Yet Mahmood Abbas started shouting already that "Israel did not leave all Gazaa. Erez Crossing is within Gaza" So here is your Arab game plan. Force Israel to give territories and Jerusalem. Then you will come and say "We demand the Sacred Right of Return of ALL refugees." Where to ? Of Course, Yaffa, Haifa, Ashkelon, Sfad, Tiberias, and Accra(Acco). You think we re stupid. You think Sharon is gullible. Arik the shredest israeli leader after Ben Gurion. Gaza is the end of your Arab prefidious games.Gaza is the test tube which by all accounts of your past behaviour including current Abases pretentions that he wants peace, you will fail the "acid test" and miss this opportunity also. This will prolong the needles conflict. The Oil reserves of Saudis and Iraq will be depleeted and so your hope of a Palestinian State will be a lost dream When you squander this opportunity, the ROW will just abonden you and rightfully so. You must learn how to live and let live. That is a tall order for the Arab Palestinians. Steep learning curve Khalid.

BM, The muslims are still so far from the Christians. We are especially gifted in slaughtering people (us Catholics have no rival in the history of mankind...). So please focus on your people's problems and let the muslims focus on their problems. The Palestinians would love focusing on their problems but unfortunatley the are occupied and not free. Once Israel is out of the WestBank we will be able to judge their performance. Until then it is only a sterile conversation and leads no where...

Yonatan, Say what you will about failed Arab States and Islamic Societies. It doesn't absolve Israel from their henious behavior in Gaza which rivals the worst of the worst in the Arab World. You people spend too much time looking for excuses and much too little time on self reflection. Give Gaza some time. Nothing can be worse than 8000 Jews monopoolizing the coastline, the water resources and 40% of the land.... Please choose the path of peace and reconcilliation... Ibrahim

The Russians have offered the Gaza Palestinians some 50 tanks. To help them police the streets? For snow removal? For their next war against Egypt? Hmmmmm....I wonder. Ariel Sharon has given the Palestinians enough rope. Now, they will certainly hang themselves. Sharon hasn't misjudged them yet.

Khalid with each of your posts you hawk your pseudo-historical facile delusions. First "The Armenian Genocide" was done by the Ottomen Turks it had nothing to do with Arabs. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,In The Book "The Ottomans" @1987 what did the Truks think about the Arabs?........................................................... "The Arabs are backward people, illiterate, dishonest, ripe with threats and with muamara (conspiracy), who must be utterly defeated for a signed peace treaty means nothing to the Arab Barbarians.".................................... Now Kalid said:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"The Jewish lobby in Washington stronly OPPOSED recognitnition by congree of the Armenian Genocide." Another UNTRUTH by the forked tongued KHALID..........................................................AIPAC, along with other Jewish NGO presented legal briefs, and oral testimony before the US Congress in support of Armenian claims of Turkist Genocide compensation........................ source to found (AIPAC.org..........under..Armenian Genocide).........................................................................................................................Khlaid said: "Do Jews Lie" no it of forked tongue Khlaid whom lies consistanly. .......................................................Khlaid hawks his facile untruths under the Arabian fairy tails with that pandemic Arab trait of threats to others and conspircy theories to justify thier pseudohistory or their own utter failures. For you see in thier minds it can't be us the Arabs, for you see we were are the mighty people 1000 years ago, the seat of learning so then it's always has be someone else fault now, not us living in glory past and ignorance. How many sucessful Arab States or Nationalistic movenments were or are their? "None" Each and every Arab state has been defined as in one degree or another as the "failed nation state" by the UN in a 2004 study (UN.org...under mideastern health and welfare analysis) ...... It so easy to distroy Khlaid with his "pigs caqn fly" posts

in the iran iraq war muslim killed muslim and an estimated milliom men died in syria under assad in hamma between 5000 to 25000 people were killed in iraq under saddam hussein how many were killed or gassed - nobody knows king hussein of jordan in sept 1970 (or there abouts) killed between 2500 to 10,000 palestinians how many lebanese were killed by the plo will never be known - estimated at about 20,000 carry on - arabs loving killing arabs i did not mention sudan or any of the other little hot spots regards bm

AHMED . " Paul, Zionists have been killers and murderers from Jacob to the present day. I am sure you would have killed millions had you had the power. If we can judge you by the past 58 years, then the number of your victims would six millions doubled many many times. " There was no such thing as a Zionist before the late 19th century. Jacob,may his soul rest in peace,lived even earlier than that! The 2nd part of your rant is beyond my ability to decipher.I emplore you Ahned, get an education.Hatred is interfering with your thinking maybe?

I'm afraid that the PA is already under examination with the abduction of an Italian journalist under way. This is exactly the kind of things that they should not allow to happen. I have all hopes that all will end well, but their credibility is now at stake.

Ahmed, this hate you feel inside, will only fire back at you one day. You just put of your mask by this 214 header. I am afraid you will not see a viable Palestine in your life time. Concentrate on family life.

Ronnie, I have the feeling Hamas and Islamic Jihad is a problem to cope with for arabas themselves. they are also symbols and it is hard to get lose of symbols for one doesn't know what will fill the emptyness.

The state of affairs in Gaza, includng the latest abduction of an Italian newspaperman, is symptomatic of the malaise affecting the entire Middle East. The root of the trouble is that the entire Muslim region itself is dysfunctional, by any standard of the word, and would have been so even if Israel would have joined the Arab league and an independent Palestine had existed for one hundred years. For more on this, see: http://midstreamthfcom/current/feature.html#about

Your qoute, "If one accepts the view that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the heart of the Israeli-Arab conflict," is absurd on it's face, and quite the contrary to reality. The Israeli-Arab conflict is at the heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and nothing more, other than Islam itself.

Howdy El-Birawi; The PA is running out of time to regain control of the situation in the Gaza Strip. If anarchy reigns there for too much longer, the Egyptian Army will be forced to intervene and reoccupy the place, but the Israelis will be on their side of the fence, shaking their heads, and saying, "I told you so". Five more days and counting. What's the matter with the Gazans? Don't they realize that now is the time to put their weapons in the closet and get to work to build a viable economy? International financial aid will be available, but not if there is any shooting going on.

You all try to explain why Israel continues (and must continue) to view Palestinians as the enemy. In response, I suggest you take a step back and think about the big picture: - To start, you are right in that Palestinians have historically rejected the Zionist claims to the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean- Most Palestinians, even moderates, don't buy the story of Jews coming after 2000 years of exile to reclaim the land on which they (the Palestinians) were living, and view this as land theft and ethnic cleansing. Their militants certainly want to expel you from the land they view as theirs with force. The fact that over half of their people are refugees who are prevented from going back to the land of their fathers certainly doesn't contribute to any positive feelings towards your people. - However, after over a century of conflict, most Palestinians (and Israelis), in spite of the bitter history, have arrived at a point where they are ready for a negotiated end of the conflict, even at the expense of some of what they view as legitimate claims. In the Taba negotiations, most issues, including borders, Jerusalem and the right of return, were resolved in a way that would have been acceptable to the majority of Palestinians and Israelis (but not the extremists). - Given this, why not give peace a genuine chance rather than resort to the knee-jerk reaction of one-sided recriminations and daemonization of the other side? With peace, the power of extremists on both sides would be neutralized and the ensuing economic prosperity will more than make up for whatever so called "concessions" (which in fact are a burden) Israel would make. Do it for the sake of your children if nothing else.

Paul, Zionists have been killers and murderers from Jacob to the present day. I am sure you would have killed millions had you had the power. If we can judge you by the past 58 years, then the number of your victims would six millions doubled many many times.

paul, You are the so-called agenda setter...It is just unlikely that Israel would establish close ties with countries that commit suicide.!!!

How can I not have an obsession? You wrote a whole page on my attitude to Hamas and didnt once mention the fact that they have a charter that was re-itterated in the past two weeks by the heads of Hamas that their AGENDA is to get Israel out of the ME. Around 50% of the Palestinians are supporting that.

The truth cannot be glossed over. The Gaza strip will degenerate into a civil war. Hamas wants it and Abbas is afraid to fight back. The arab world can stop it from happening, but it won't. The hatred and bigotry that infects the arab world is the motivating factor. This seems to be more important than muslims living in peace and prosperity.

Oy veh Moshe Zack.But are you really a Moshe? Hmmm.

So you dont deny a genocide,merely hide behind subterfuges. YOUR people did it,not the Israeli / jewish lobby.Dont you know jews in palestine fought WITH the British against the Turks. DO ARABS LIE KHALID?

I ask the question in good faith and thank you for the answer. Maybe you will have some sympathy for Jews who for 2000 years have had the Talmud/Torah misquoted and manipulated to justify their persicution.

Ahmed slow down! When did Israel kill 100's of thousands of arabs? Not even in all the wars that you started in 1948, 67,73 added together did this happen and these account for the vast majority of arabs killed by jews since 1920,all justified by the fact you tried to DESTROY ISRAEL THESE 3 TIMES. 2nd.3million russians??? sounds like something from your palestinian school books.The jews were sent to the gulags along with many other innocents.Is this what they teach you at kindergarten? 3rd Who in g-ds name told you this about Sudan? A few thousand? This was one of the longest civil wars of the last 100 years.Go to a library.OVER A MILLION DIED, IN VAIN IF YOUR REACTION IS ANYTHING TO GO BY.

Ronnie, you are a very reasonable man with many reasonable posting on this site. However I think that you and most if not all Jewish readers are so obsessed with Hamas that it does cloud your thinking. While I have always voiced my objections to suicide bombing as moraly, legally and politically wrong thing to engage in, Hamas did and does provide so many social services and its leaders are not corrupt like Fatah. Hamas wants the occupation to end, and Hamas like many Jewish organizations that calls for the expulsion, sorry, transfer, of Palestinians, Hamas calls for the liberation of Palestine. Both of these pronounciations are wishful thinking, on the part of Jewish organization and on the part of Hamas. Neither the Jews nor the Palestinians are going any where not to the Dakotas or to Wyoming. I do think that when the occupation is over and there is a formal peace between Israel and the Palestinians, there is no reason for Hamas or any other organization to continue to carry on with the armed struggle. I think it will do Hamas a lot of good if it denounced once and for all, all suicide bombing and committ itself to the peaceful and negotiated resolution of the conflict, as a first and prefered solution. In my mind most of the writers use Hamas as a boogy man to scare so many people to engage in a peaceful diologue. Don't forget that way back in the days prior to the war of independance, Jewish organizations engaged in terrorists activities, and some continue till today. If Israel put as condition on Hamas running for elections, then Hamas should put an objection to Likud running for election. Again Israel is shortsighted in its objection to Hamas joining the political process. I prefere Hamas to join the political process than to be outside the process and engaged in any violence. It is time to put violence and all reasons and execuses for it behind us. After all not all of Israelis and Jews are angels.

In the aftermath of the "mafia" style murder of Mousa Arafat, it is time for Mahmoud Abbas to make a clean sweep of the Palestinian Territories and clean the mess left from the days of Yaser Arafat. The PA under Arafat broke all of the world records for corruption and abuse of power, including toture of prisoners and the speedy murder of defendants. Mousa Arafat was the one of the pillars of such corruption and abuse of power, engaged in theft of private and public property, in prositutions and drug traffic, not mention the facilitation of targeted killing by Israel. Mousa Arafat is one of several thousands of Fatah and PLO and PA officials who have to be arrested and brought to trial for corruption and abuse of power. Only when Abbas takes such a decision and put an end not only to the corruption, but bring those accused of it to trial, could the Palestinian people feel a real change. The PAS must not await targeted killings of corrupted officials to make a move. Not only the PA must put an end to the corruption, but must put an end to the lawlessness that has been the hallmark of the PA. The demand for reform must be a Palestinian demands. It is time for Abbas to act and show that he a leader of the Palestinian people and not a guardian angel of Fatah and its corrupted officials. There is a whole lots of people who should be in jail and who should be flushed down the toilet, for this is where they belong.

Nabil, speaks for the world,...NOT. Only the rag bag that is the completely irrelevant general assembly and the U.N Human rights commision,so recently and nobely chaired by that bastion of human rights Libya.Ha Ha....Whereas prime minister Sharon has been righfully congratulated for his courage vis a via Gaza by BUSH, BLAIR, MUSHARAF,KING -HUSSAIN,MUBARAK etc etc. Gina I,m afraid the palestinians have already made their choice.Abbas has little if any power and what legitimacy he has is as a result of Israeli/American encouragement.Gaza is already commencing its bloodletting with the assassination of Mousa Arafat.There are too many gangs and gangsters for poor old Abbas.

This is a good idea.I wonder if Hamas would accept that? I doubt it.I wonder as well how a referendum would look in the territories about that.

Peter, how billions of Indians and chinese killed by ancient Jews?

Paul, how about the hundreds of thosuands of Arab you murdered since 1920s? How about the 3 milion Russians you murdered during Staline's Qulaqs? In Sudan, a few thousands were killed, but In Russia, you killed tens of millions

ditto george/metra mattar"yes georg, I agree with you"#174. Here's another saying. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

We also have proverbs: "Tell me what you boast of, and I'll tell you what you lack" And more: "Call others something before they call you that" "Tell me who you meet with and I'll tell you who you are" "They bark; therefore we are riding ahead"

Paul, the man told the truth.

Paul ,I can quote a thousand similar verses from your bible and tens of thousands from your Talmud. But if you want to understand, hwoever, the verse you have cited is called "Had al Hiraba." it concerns armed robbers (called brigands), who hold up, attack, rob, rape and kill travelers in the desert. It is meant as a strong retribution for their crimes. I believe Judaism has a similar punishment for this kind of people. I believe they are also killed in America and many other countries. Now, are willing to listen, or you just want to vilify? To claim that this is the way Muslims ought to know with unbelievers is a scandalous lie that only cheapens the character of the person repeating such lies.

If there had been a genocide, Israel would have recognized it. Israel and her Jewish lobby in Washington strongly opposed recognition by congress of the Armenian genocide. And since, Jews don't lie, it means that there was no genocide, at all. Besides, Israel and Turky are close allies..would Israel ally herself with a genocidal country? Do Jews lie, Paul?

Iam only scratching the surface. Talk about looking yourself in the mirror

Religion of Peace?? Tell that to the millions of Chinese murdered by Moslems in S.E Asia.

PPaul wrote "On the contrary, Kim always seems to speak in measured tone and has substantiated her comments with factual evidence whenever neccessary" Paul, we have a palestinian proverb here in Bethlehem " They asked the fox, who is your defense witness" "My tail," he said.

"how many victories would you have scored without US and European military support? be grateful to your masters and don`t gloat about victories that were only made possible with western money and bombs. you see, Israel is essential to the West. it solves the Jewish question. So the west will alaways be ready to support you, within limits you have discovered recently. fact is no arab country ever received, from US or Russia, any technology that Israel got from US and Europe".- AZZAM Who told you no arab country ever received any military technology?! Did you forget Saddam and Rumsfeld's handshake....what about Saudi Arabia etc...who have been receiving military aid from the US/UK since the 1930s?! What about Jordan which was and still receive military aid?! What about Saddam?! Even during the 60s and 70s Israel had its own military industry and while the West did support them you also received support so don't always live in denial and attribute defeat to "the West"..which brings me to my second point...if you don't have the technology why didn't you develop it to have the edge over Israel?! Israel has better generals and more disciplined soldiers than you ever will so don't try to deny that...Iraq had abundant weapons against an impoverished Iran that didn't receive any help between 1980 and 1988 and you still couldn't beat us....in 12 months we pushed you out of Ahvaz and since then our army have had the edge for 6 years..if we had the WMDs and lavish financial support from Arab/Western countries that Saddam had we wouldve conquered every arab country out there. PS. have you forgotten the 2-3 million Iranians who died from Saddam's Western-made WMDs?

Kim referenced. [al-Ma`idah 5:51.11] Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim`s "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90). "Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12). Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123). Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29). I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12) - They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33) Are these excerpts, any or all of them in the Koran or not?

Azzam said But get real Kim. If I list all the greatest atrocities documented by mankind I will end up with the list belwo: - crusades - inquisition - holocust - colonialims and genocide - WWI - WWII - Vietnam - Palestine - Iraq sanctions All of the above were caused by White Christians. So all you have are quotes from Muslim books. Please add the following: Iran Irag war.1million dead civil war algeria civil war sudan/darfur over 1 million dead, mostly christian. Moslem crusades pre date christian crusades. Mahmud of Ghazni (971?April 30, 1030), killed an estimated 6 million HINDUS. April 24 : Armenia day. This is the official Armenian memorial day for the victims of the muslim genocide against Christian Armenians in World War I OVER I MILLION DEAD.There are many many more as i'm sure you are well aware.

The 2005 UNDP Human Development Report takes stock of the human development of all countries in the world (even "occupied"). The human development is based on such criteria as life expectancy at birth, gdp and education. Classification of countries: 1 Norway 11 Japan 102 Occupied Palestinian Territories 103 Algeria 106 Syrian Arab Republic 119 Egypt 124 Morocco 141 Sudan 150 Djibouti 151 Yemen 152 Mauritania It follows that the OPT Arabs are a privileged minority, not only compared to Arabs in other Arab states, but also compared to Europe. Moldova, a republic in southern Europe for instance, ranks only 115th.

Dont rewrite history Azzam. "4.5MILLIONexpelled " In 1947 UNSCOP[U.N]proposed a 2 state solution for Palestne with a total of 1.3MILLION arabs included.Since in 1948 almost .5 million arabs remained in Israel for a better way of life,that leaves something of the order of 800,000 almost all of whom chose to leave on the advise of THEIR leaders who unfortunately for the arabs were as decrepid and corrupt as they still are to this day.

Gina..the occupation is an act of rape, this means that Jews are praticing collective rape of my country and my people. The world doesn't like that.

Heard of the Kurds? You know those people in Iraq expelled off their lands which was given to Arabs.

Ronnit, I think when Khalid says this he uses the word "CONQUERED".ie.arabs never expelled natives from countries they conquered. Thus egypt, Iraq, Algeria etc. were not conquered so they do not count.You see Khalid doesnt lie but uses more subtle half-truths, such is his integrity.He also never deals with the reality that the vast majority of arabs left palestine of their own will on the instruction of arab leaders who advised them they shall return in a couple of weeks when all the jews would be annihillated.If Khalid keeps up this denial he might even convince himself one day.

Having read all of Kims posts on this subject yours and "gourges"are two of the least informative and are backed up with precisely nothing.So expand or stop being childish.

On the contrary, Kim always seems to speak in measured tone and has substantiated her comments with factual evidence whenever neccessary.Example:#164. George ,put up or shut up!

i am laughing my head off if they built a airport. wonder when which country will actually allow their airplanes to land their. i wonder how will the flight attendants will dressed up? the funny thing, who will ever trade with gaza?

And that has been happening since long before the occupation. They have the right to defend themselvs. Soif they kill the aggressors,good for them.

arabs didnt expel Jews? Steal their property and valuables? Where and what planet do you live on Mr Khalid? What happened to Jews in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Morocco, Algeria? just to name the most common countries that expelled Jews??

you have umpteen armed factions and no law and order - you have each city and each town and each street under the armed gun law of a different war lord you have the steimtzky book of 1001 excuses go read some more! bm

scholars - pull the other one it has bells on it! nobody cares and you know it - your own people dont care - so why should others? as for the posters ont his forum who are as beloved of the palestinians - please examine the reality - they care so long as they have a safe room and a pc and a cup of coffee - you have some real cheap friends bm

"did you drug him" "use shift key" "stop using capital letters" mark lincoln is so desperate he may be scraping the bottom of the barrel. mark you had better stick to substance.what is your point? my point is that you are militarily illiterate and pretend otherwise. my point is that you are strangely obsessed by israel yet insist you are not anti-israel. mark listen to me when you are on day after day berating the state .you are obsessed.no question.

To Nabil: "Let us wait and see, the Palestinian issue is becoming a world issue" The world wishes for Gaza and the Palestinian people to thrive and be successful, because the civilized world is mostly comprised of good and decent people. However, the world is also repulsed by barbaric terrorism. The civilized world will never support Palestinian terrorism. I hope the Palestinian people choose decency over terrorism. We shall see in the next few months..

Who are the occupiers? The Neverlanders. They want to occupy the Jews' homeland.

Yes, George, I agree with you. Most of her postings here have no iota of truth. They are meant to provoke. I advise that serious people should ignore here.

WOULD YOU LIKE TO RETHINK AND RESTATE YOUR INCORRECT ASSERTIONS ! YOU TALK UTTER BALDERDASH!!!

I think Kim is indulging in brash lies against the Palestinians and their cause. she always bring up inaccurate,unsubstantiated and ourgiht false information on this forum.. She also so nonchalantly evades and ignores the thousands of Christian Arabs killed by Israel throughout the years. I believe she is not really Christian..maybe she is a Zionist Jew deisguised as a christian.

before the occupation, Zionism's hands were not clean. They were stained with the blood of Dir Yasin, Qibya, Dawaymeh, Tantura, Kfar Qassem, Lud, Ramle, Qastal, etc.etc. Kim, the Zionists, your lovers, committed a massacres in every street, every town, every hamlet, every cave.. Have you every heared of "TUR El-Zagh" when the terrorists of Zionism slaughtered dozens of women and children who sought shelter at the cave..tur al Zagh...thy gunned them down mercilessly all of them...in 1948. I myself lost my three uncles to Zionist terror back in 1954...read "My experience with the Israeli occupation" by Khalid Amayreh.

The Arabs have been slaughtering Jews since long time before what you call the "occupation". And they slaughter any kind of people because that's what the Qu'ram orders them to do. Now they are also harassing Christians everywhere, like in the PA administered territories, where pogroms are launched against the Christians so the Christian population is on the wane there, because they escape for Israel and the USA.

Paul, the Arabs conquered many countries, but they never expelled at gun point the natives. But Israel utterly destroyed hundreds of cities and towns and villages hamlets and mosques and churches, and expelled the bulk of the Palestinian people (Christians and Muslims) to the four winds. Paul, your state is criminal par excellance.

Howdy Khalid; Much of the problem stems from deciding exactly where the border between Israel and the Palestinian Territories actually is. By claiming 100% of "your land", exactly what do you mean? Be specific and provide a reference to a map so that every can see what you're talking about.

Howdy Nabil; Get real. No Arab or Muslim governement will ever go to war against Israel again. The Palestinians are on their own. You might get some Islamist, extremist, terrorist groups to join in the Jihad against Israel, but they will have a difficult time getting there and if they do arrive, who is going to feed, water, and supply these Mujahadeen before they martyr themselves uselessly against the security fence? Good luck, buddy!

About the Koran: And they have the gall to deny it is about killing people even if you read it and even where their leaders and clerics are continually calling jihad. There was a fatwa against Rushdi. Have you heard something about a fatwa against Bin Laden or Hamas? There is none. And they call it "the religion of peace". What a cheek!

Muslims spread by force since Mohammed times. destroying and slaughtering. What is happening nowdays? Attacks on Israel Slaughter in Darfur Terror in Egypt Terror in Algeria Terror in Afganistan Terror in Iraq Terror in Indonesia Terror in the USA Terror in Madrid, London. Attacks twarted in Italy and France Terror in Pakistan Terror in China Terror in Russia: blowing of planes, slaugher and rape of children in a school etc.

I have read the Koran and have a copy at home. Sorry that it is not in English and I am not a good translator. So I don't copy it here. I have friends who have read or are reading it too, and they are shocked as well. And what are many clerics preaching but to kill non-believers?

It is land for peace, not compromise. you stole 78% of our homeland, and now you want to take the rest? who do you think you are? So go to "palestine"..i.e Jordan and we can be done with this mess until the next time the arabs try to destroy the Jewish nation!! and fail!!!!!!!!!!

Khalid writes In 1948, you destroyed and obliterated 480 villages and banished our people to the four corners of the world, and you committed numerous massacres. Your organized terror against our people invited a reaction. in short, your hands in 1948 were far from clean. They were stained with our blood as heavily as they are today. Your continued misrepresentation of fact is getting very tiresome. You seem to have that "Goebbles" philosophy of if you say it enough it becomes fact. In 1948 after the Jews announced the re-establishment of there 4000 year old homeland(of which there has always been a Jews living) the Arab armies of no less then 5 countries declared war on the nascent Jewish State, telling the Arabs who had come their over the past few years (to get jobs the arab countries could not provide) to leave their homes and return in a couple weeks after the Jews had been pushed in the sea, but alas the "great" Arabs failed(and continue to do so.) and other then arab/and left wing propoganda, there is no fact in any Jewish massacers of arabs and certainly not the policy of our government. And as far as today goes, remember it is the arabs who put in the road blocks check points security fence, and when we kill your cowerdly terrorists it is most unfortunate when they hide among civilians and children who become casulities.but remember our war against the arabs is for our survival, your war against us is about destroying the Jewish nation and people,not some percieved occupation.

the arabs are land thieves khalid IS THAT WHY THEY CALL THE KETTLE BLACK!! WHO WILL THEY GIVE IRAQ BACK TO ???? NO ARB OWNED ANYTHING HOW DID ISRAEL STEAL 78% OF THEIR OWN COUNTRY

It is land for peace, not compromise. you stole 78% of our homeland, and now you want to take the rest? who do you think you are?

Arguments on the fly, more of the usual Arab rhetoric. Tell me Azzam, do they teach this to you in school, or do you just pick it up on the streets? But let me add another interesting factor. How many Arabs from Yemen, for example, would consider their forced evacuation to a wealthy country EXPULSION? Let?s see, the Jews of Yemen fled in the 1940?s and early 1950?s. It?s simple work Azzam, but if you check Israel?s GDP, you will find it far from a wealthy nation. Moreover, you will find that the Yemenite Arabs received a vast sum to allow their Jews exit. Sounds like a ransom to me. But of course you?d rather wallow in fantasy and fallacy rather than the truth. Now, given that in the 1950?s Europe was recovering from WW II, it might be reasonable to state that Israel was indeed in a similar economic state, but comparing either Europe or Israel of 2005 with either locale in the 1950?s is disengeneous. It may keep you warm at night to make up such fantasies, but again, it?s not reality. More dream palaces of the Arabs I guess. Now, the single difference between what happened between the Jewish refugees and the Palestinians is that the Jews were welcomed by their brothers and were provided the opportunity to succeed. Compared to the Palestinian who were thrown in refugee camps by their brothers, forbidden from owning land, businesses, or gaining employment (Jordan being the exception). In fact, even through today, there are Palestinian refugee camps in both Gaza and the West Bank, 10 years after Yasser Arafat waltzed into town. So if you are going to complain about rotting, go take that complaint up with the Arab League and various Arab governments and people. Of course is the fact that the Arab states were behind both issues including the 1948 invasion as well as the threats to their own local Jewish communities. There is nothing to inflate, the problem is, like Khalid, you can?t handle the truth which includes the fact that this is a two-way conflict and the Arabs have acted poorly in it. This doesn?t require inflation. It doesn?t require revisionism, just the ability to face reality. Of course, if Herzl had achieved his goal, one could posit the idea that the Palestinians would be better off than under the care they have received from those that consider them brothers and allies

Jeff, you wrote to Khalid that muslims will not fight for Palestine. Well, Let us wait and see, the Palestinian issue is becoming a world issue. No Israeli and No ZIonist will rest until we get our rights back. If this requires millions of sacrifices, then be it.

Kim, your problem is that you have a combination of hatred and ignorance. These verses concern the Polythiests of Quraish who wanted to eradicate Islam at that time. Muslims are not commanded to kill unbelievers. But you won't believe it, and really I don't care.

Howdy Ibrahim; The only memberships that I hold are in the MAA (Mathematical Association of America) and the DAV (Disabled Veterans of America). I don't have any idea who the AIPAC is nor do I wish to be a member. Although both the Great Wall of China and Hadrian's Wall eventually fell (mainly due to neglect), they served their purpose for centuries as will the Israeli security fences around the Gaza Strip and in the West Bank. "A shared Jerusalem implies peaceful relations between the two communities"? Sorry, it's the other way around: "peaceful relations between the two communities implies a shared Jeruselum." That's the first time that anyone has accused me of being a bigot. I don't care what religion you happen to be a member of, what race you happen to be, what your nationality is, your sex, your sexual orientation, or anything else. I take people one at a time and make my judgements accordingly. Yes, I do have a favorite chair, but my darling, little, angel-baby, Isis, is usually asleep in it and if she is disturbed, she will turn into the mega-bitch from hell, slash your throat, and eat you.

"Israel gave Jordan 100% of its occupied territories for peace." no, we didn't. the land you are say we must give up was under jordanian rule before 1967. once again, your view of history has been twisted. i think this phenomenon should be called "khalidivision"

Oh, so you can read G-d's mind, eh? You make our Creator sound like some mad scientist who intends to control mankind like robots. His truth will be known in His time, and no one, not even you, know when that is. Shabbat Shalom.

IMHO the editorial is quite off the mark. The assasination of M. Arafat is a very positive sign for the future stability of Gaza. During the assasination, none of the members of the various security forces stationed just down the road from Arafat's house lifted a finger, even though the firefight lastes 40 minutes. Do you really think that the hooligans from the PRC are a match for Preventative Security troops that Rashid Abu Shbak could have had on the scene in under 5 minutes?? the PRC gangsters were acting as subcontractors for Dahlan - is it any coincidence that Arafat was liquidated exactly when Dahlan was in Jordan receiving medical treatment??? On the other hand what this means for Gaza as a whole is that if a leading mafioso like M. Arafat could be liquidated, then anyone else can follow suit. In short order Dahlan will be running Gaza just like Mubarak is running Egypt. I.e. instead of Somalia or Liberia we will end up with something like Egypt or Iraq under Saddam Hussein. This is a pretty stable configuration which coupled with the fact that Dahlan considers it in his interests to have a stable alliance with the USA, just like Mubarak or the Saudis means that a stable state will emerge under his autocratic rule. It is true that many ordinary Palestinian Arabs will continue to endure poverty and corruption, but their lives will be quite better off than what the editorial foresees under a violent anarchy. Longer term, a lasting cease fire with Israel, foreign aid, and some democracy together with an accomodation with the fundamentalists should bring an improvement in the standard of living and personal freedom, provided that large scale emigration out of Gaza becomes possible.

Howdy Azzam; I'm not an Israeli nor a Jew; in fact, I'm not a member of any organized religion on the face of the planet because I don't like some idiot priest telling me that I can't smoke, drink beer, or fornicate to my heart's content. Hence, it is not I who whipped the Arabs/Muslims over the course of the past four centuries (ever since the Battle of Lepanto in 1571), but I had nothing to do with it. The reason why the Israelis have advanced military technology is because the Jews have always emphasized education above all else. That is why they have been persecuted for millenia because they just happen to brighter than the rest of us. If you need a lawyer, find a Jewish one; if you need a doctor, find Jewish one; and if you need a banker, find a Jewish one. Who is Aunt Hilda?

The above subject was said by Curly, one of the Three Stooges, who I think make most of these posts. :) Say three times fast: "The disorder was ordered by the orderly on the orders of the doctors without ordered borders."

"Azzam, in the early years of the state of Israel when it absorbed 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries" This is news to me any others. Please post a link to a nutral party like UN or B'Tselem showing that the 800,000 Arab jews were victis of expulsions. "nd as far as the Palestinians forced to "rot" in "squalid refugee camps", whose fault is that? If the local Arab hosts of those refugees had put one tenth the effort into helping them out that Israel did for it`s Jewish refugees" But it's not the problem of the neighbouring Arab countries to clean up your mess. It's ultimalty your fault and that of the West who watched and did nothing short of sticking band aids on the disaster. I will not accept a substitute homeland. Also, your have no jewish refugees PLEEEEEEEZZZE! you have settlers. armed settlers. racist zionist armed settlers. want me to remind you of what Harzel inteded for us gentiles?

Jeff, But I am not so sure about you, friend. I believe a just peace will be forged, precisely because the Jews aren't stupid. I am not a historian of walls, like you. Did China's wall keep the mongals out? I doubt it. Sure, it's a great tourist attraction... But that's beside the point. Your analysis seems to imply your are card carrying AIPAC member, and thus incapbable of balanced analysis. A shared Jerusalem implies peaceful relations between the two communities. Your opinion that Palestinians aren't capable of peace smacks of good old fashion Archie Bunker bigottry... I bet you have a favorate chair in your home.

defeat is bitter isnt it?

Howdy Ibrahim; Nobody listens to an old ex-sergeant in the US government. The Vietnam War was a different matter because we had a place to retreat to, but Israel does not. That's the major difference. The trouble with the goals of the Palestinians is not just that they want the "occupied territories", but all of Israel herself as has been explicitly and repeatedly stated by numerous Palestinian leaders in the media. The "magical fence" is no joke. It is being built at a cost of tens of billions of Shekels and, if anything, the Israelis are not stupid. In spite of your prediction that the wall will fall within ten years, take a look at the Great Wall of China and Hadrian's Wall in Great Britain. They lasted for centuries. There is no way that Jeruselum will be "shared" because that would mean that Palestinian terrorists would have unfettered access to Israel proper. It is possible that the Arab neighborhoods of East Jeruselum can be under Palestinian control, but that would have to be worked out through negotiations and would require a 10 m. high concrete wall between the Arab parts and the Israeli parts of the Old City. You are one of the last people on the planet to recognize that it isn't "land for peace" that Israel wants, but rather, "land for security" and to hell with the "peace" because the Palestinians will not abide by any agreement anyway. Do you think that the Jews are stupid or what?

All the Pro-Palestinians who claim that PA's will live in peace once Israel fully withdraws from the "occupied" territories are full of folly. Let's assume that Israel wtihdraws. Do you really think that the approxiamtely 50% of PA's, who are Hamas supporters, will live in peace? Noooo! These PA's can't change their violent ideology. They will continue to use the same violent tactis to drive Israelis out once and for all. There needs to be a revolution in psychology before anything can occur! There needs to be a PA leader that can actually speak of positive actions on behalf of the majority of the PA's!

Azzam wrote-- "I mean even if we want to go along with your inflated version of the jewish expulsions there is a huge difference between "expelling" arab jews to an Israel. the jewish Homeland, where standards of living are close to Europe, versus expelling palestinains to squalid refugge camps where they continue to rott and where many have died marching in the sun across mountains and into neighbiuring countries the palestinains" Azzam, in the early years of the state of Israel when it absorbed 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries the country had nowhere near the standard of living of European countries. And as far as the Palestinians forced to "rot" in "squalid refugee camps", whose fault is that? If the local Arab hosts of those refugees had put one tenth the effort into helping them out that Israel did for it's Jewish refugees, they wouldn't be living in squalid conditions to this day.

"(they`ve already tried [war with israel] several times and got their butts kicked)." how many victories would you have scored without US and European military support? be grateful to your masters and don't gloat about victories that were only made possible with western money and bombs. you see, Israel is essential to the West. it solves the Jewish question. So the west will alaways be ready to support you, within limits you have discovered recently. fact is no arab country ever received, from US or Russia, any technology that Israel got from US and Europe. The only time arabs got advanced technology, on a limited scale, you almost lost the war in 1973. Why do you thing you rushed to sign a peace treaty with Egypt. Had the egyptians fought you with the same technolgy you had, you would not have won such victories. So pay your respects to Uncle Sam and Aunt Helda.

Ernst- those space cakes seem to have affected your memory! If you were making this argument prior to Oslo moderate Israeli's and Zionists (such as myself) would ( and did) agree with you but we've seen the consequences of acting on the assumptions you make (thousands of dead, wounded and maimed Israelis and Palestinians). The Palestinian national narrative has always been about defeating Zionism rather than achieving statehood (something self-righteous Europeans could do with considering when assessing the conflict between Arabs and Jews in our shared homeland instead of analysing solely through their own cultural concept of colonialism, which is rather narcissistic/eurocentric don't you think?). Arafat convinced us that the Palestinians had moved beyond the goal of destoying Israel and was now focussed on state building and compromise- The refusal to negotiate at Camp David and Intifada 2 has convinced us that he (and the rest of the Palestinian leadership) might possibly be lying. Now we pay more attention to Palestinian deed than to Palestinian words. Israel has demonstrated that it is willing to give up land land and stand up to its own rejectionist front, in order to help create the conditions for peace between Jews and our Arab neighbours. Yes they need support but only an idiot makes the same mistake twice. Now is the time for Palestinians to step up to the plate.

Kim, i am amazed at how you can quote versus from the Quran you consider objectinabel and proof of Muslim intolerance yet anyone on Yahoo can find equally objectionable quotes from your religious texts. Do you think you are immune from similar scrutiny? But I will indulge you and help my self to a quote from your books that, had I wanted to be equally nasty, could use this quote to justify Muslim suspicions of Jews. After all your worngdoings according to your scared texts preceed any muslim Quran quots and shows that you have casted the first stone against those who are not jewish. This is hardly a sign of Jewish tolerance, if we play by your rules: "50- On the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho the LORD said to Moses, 51 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you cross the Jordan into Canaan, 52 drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you. Destroy all their carved images and their cast idols, and demolish all their high places. 53 Take possession of the land and settle in it, for I have given you the land to possess. 54 Distribute the land by lot, according to your clans. To a larger group give a larger inheritance, and to a smaller group a smaller one. Whatever falls to them by lot will be theirs. Distribute it according to your ancestral tribes." But get real Kim. If I list all the greatest atrocities documented by mankind I will end up with the list belwo: - crusades - inquisition - holocust - colonialims and genocide - WWI - WWII - Vietnam - Palestine - Iraq sanctions All of the above were caused by White Christians. So all you have are quotes from Muslim books.

Right again.I read the Koran so that I will be able to converse with Muslims about what is in it.YES ,YES,YES,JIHAD IS ALL ABOUT KILLING THE NON BELIEVERS.I was not so thrilled to find out that I am a monkey or a pig or both.I just wondered if this is what Jews are -what are ARABS?

LOVED YOUR POST TO KHALID BUT I think that too much ink is being spilled on someone who is the product of the ARAFAT'S MADRRASSA. YOU CAN TALK AND EXPLAIN AND THEN THE BROKEN RECORD STARTS ALL OVER AGAIN.This is why it is practically impossible to make peace with the PA ARABS now.

Yes, Khalid, the extremists on both sides use religion to make their arguments. But you yourself often tell the pro-Israel voices here on the site not to over-emphasize the role of extremsits on the Palestinian side and think about the rights of the people. Shouldn't you think about the moderate Israelis who want peace? (they are not all extremists, you know -- Israel, is overall, a secular country with its own forces who oppose the extremists and making political decisions based on religion) That majority -- the moderates -- are your best chance for peace. (and further steps) Don't alienate them by threatening a holy religious war. This just lends credence to the extremists.

"Clearly, unbiased history is lost on all palestinians as they are tought to hate Jews through TV and in school." 4.5 million expelled gentiles tends to create bias. if you are clinically selfish, you might take offense to the bias of the people you have wronged. TV and school did not teach us we did not expereince first hand. having my family forced out of its village and having members of my family murdered by european settlerts simply because we are not jews THAT'S WHAT SHAPES OPINIONS. an having someone accuse us of being gratouetously biased and unfair against those who caused us great pain is amazing.

"Palestinians destroying the synagogues, and they may have a huge celebration about destroying the Jews.. . . what to do?" Nice strategy. INvade another people. build synagogues, use synagogs as excuse to keep invasion in the name of freedom of worship while denying the gentiles their freedoms. You zionists are so smart, it's just not that obvious.

the mighty god of israel loves us all but...he has given this land to israel and to give it away pertubes him greatly,,, soon all things will come under his complete control, he has allowed things to happen until now... soon all will see the truth

"Self inflicted misery for palestinians" OK, you caught us. Game over. tomorrow I and 4.5 million expelled gentiles will march back to the holy land and stop our silly games of pretending to have been wronged. Please have a welcoming committee waiting at Rafah border point. THis charade must end. Sorry Paul, Kim, Tulip for fabricating this whole conflict. This is all self-inflicted and you had nothing to do with anything.

Let me just repeát Khalid's words....: ¨¨"The Palestinians might hope to get a state in 100% of the Gaza Strip and about 92% of the West Bank which lies to the east of the security fence, but the rest of the West Bank including the Israeli settlements of Ariel and Ma`aleh Adumim and East Jeruselum you can kiss goodbye. Ok, we get the 92% of the West Bank and then we keep up the struggle until we get the remaining 8%. Anyway, If we don`t, other Muslims will. ¨¨ That is the problem, that is their idea of negotiation: you argue about the price of a souvenir... they ask for 100 you ofer 50, you barter and barter and you reach an agreement at 80,... you pay, you get the souvenir , and you shake hands and go your way...But then they feel entitled to the other 20... they run you up in an alley, beat you up and steel the other 20, and the souvenir..... and then they feel they were just getting what they derserved.... That is why Oslo failed.. for these kind of attitude.. and for me, seeing it in clear and proud display by a Palestinian Intelectual such as Khalid.. I conclude saddly on the futility of trying to negotiate.... By the way Khalid,... you may of course try the strategy you outlined.... go ahead.... but don't cry when it ends differentlly from what you expected: Ok, we get the 92% of the West Bank and then we keep up the struggle until we get the remaining 8%. Anyway, If we don`t, other Muslims will. Then Isarel counteratacks, ocuupies 50 % of the Palestinaian territories and on the same day puts them in trucks and ensures none of them remain within the new borders of Isarel. And then Khalid and the like cry about NakbahII, and their kidds continue to have miserable lives.. even more miserable than those, which their previous failures to take an opportunity awarded their parents.... HAVE A NICE DAY :-)

"If I recall correctlly, it was the Arabs who in the eary years of the XX wanted to trow the jews to the sea" You make me wanna fall asleep with your lack of imagination. Agian, you quote words as you shoot and expell. The zionist project started before any arab uttered any anti-jewish quote. but quotes don't kill or expell. bullets kill. do you want to equate the tragedy of 4.5 million expelled non-jews with a quote? you are desperate for excuses. But I will halp you get even better quotes. Why don't you go to the closest refugee camp, where gentiles rott in suqlid camps and where their parents and their grandparets were met with the same fate, simple because they are not jewish, and ask them what thy think of jews. Now record that and send it to US TV channels. You will find 4.5 million gentiles who lost a home or a loved one to israeli brutality and each and every one of those will give you an unpleasent quote for you to parade on forums as retroactive proof of palestinian anti-semitism. try it. you have done it before. be yourself.

"Just like the Soviets refused to let the Jews leave, so to did various Arab states hold Jewish citizens hostage. Families were not allowed to travel together. Assets were frozen." More contradictions. Did jews flee, were they expelled, or were they taken hostage? I think you are just making up arguments on the fly. But let me add another interesting factor. How many Arabs from Yemen, for example, would consider their forced evacuation to a wealthy country EXPULSION? I mean even if we want to go along with your inflated version of the jewish expulsions there is a huge difference between "expelling" arab jews to an Israel. the jewish Homeland, where standards of living are close to Europe, versus expelling palestinains to squalid refugge camps where they continue to rott and where many have died marching in the sun across mountains and into neighbiuring countries the palestinains DO NOT CONSIDER TO BE SAFE HEAVENS AND PROMISED LANDS. SO give us a break and stop inflating the facts to suit to the scale of violence you have inflicted agianst people who had nothing to do with the bogus greatly inflated expulsions from arab countries and nothing to do with your historical persecution stories. You just need excuses to justify RETROACTIVLY your cruelty and inhumanity which started long before any jew was allegedly expelled from Arab country: As far back as 1895, Herzl himself posited the following position: "We must expropriate gently..We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country."

If find Khalid's common sense, rether disingenous to say the least. It is true that some gropus in Israel reject any rights for the Palestinians... however comparing them to Hammas is not only ridicullous ... it is inmoral: These groups do not go arround killig inocent Palestinian civilians for the sake of it... and whenever any elemt of such gropus resorts to terrorism ( and there have been some incidents indeed, including a Baruch Goldstein and a few others ) not only do these groups distance themselves from the peropetrators ... but more important: THE ELECTED GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL, BE IT RIGHT OR LEFT WING, DEALS WITH THEM SEVERLY; PUTS THEM IN JAIL; AND IF NEEDS BE, USES FORCE TO PREVENT THEM FROM FURTHER ATACKS ON PALESTINIANS.... Now... compare that with Hammas. Islamic Jihad, al Aksa Martyrs Brigade and so forth... these gropus are constantly bowing up innocent israeli civilians, ( latelly the separation wall and other measures have reduced their effectivness.. but that is all...) these gropus proudly glorify these actions.. and constantly commit themselves to their continuation... but more importantly: THE ELECTED PALESTINAIAN AUTHORITY; FUNDS THEM GLORIFIES THEM; COVERS WITH POSTERS OF THE SO CALLED MARTHYRS; THE TOWNS FRON WHERE THEY COME... ( Recall the loud calls fron ARAFAT: Jihad Jihad Jihad.. and do not come back to me with the baloney that the Jihad he refered to was a spiritual one.... he also called for Shahids( marthyrs ).. are these also spiritual? we are not stupid you know?).... Any way, I hope it has become very clear that common sense is something that seems to be on shorter supply than honest leaders in the Pelestinian side...

But now you are sounding like your foolish friends who planned and executed our disastrous war in Vietnam. I sincerely hope you are retired and not advising the United States on issues of national security or diplomacy. The Palestinians have issues right now, ALOT of them, no doubt. We know they won't be solved by the good will of ex sergeants like you. But the progress we've made since 1967 has been enormous. And within another generation, if things go at the same rate, our goals will be fulfilled. Your magic fence will be moved, and most likely dismantled within 10 years max. Unified Jerusalem will be shared by both peoples. And the foolish settlers will no longer pillage our villages and olive groves like the low class looters they are. Regards... Ibrahim

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. [al-Ma'idah 5:51.11] Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90). "Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12). Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123). Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29). I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12) - They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)

Howdy Khalid; The Gaza Strip will break away from the PA and become a separate independent state from the West Bank. The other Muslim countries will not intervene in the conflict because nobody wants to go to war with Israel (they've already tried that several times and got their butts kicked). In case you haven't noticed, your fellow Muslim brothers have done very little to alleviate the plight of the Palestinian refugee descendants who were born within their borders. Chuckle over that for awhile.

So Khalid, Where is in your stament the will to compromise or negotiate... Would you be willing to exchange let's say Ariel for an exactly equal amount of land of the same quality belonging to Israel? It is necesary to talk and discuss all issues, and not go and this apply to both sides with non negotiables... It is hard to find peace if there is no will to compromise.

Well, they don't complain when the other side "struggles" back.

Howdy El-Birawi; No international force is willing to step into the snake pit of the Gaza Strip. Try telephoning Mubarak to send in the Egyptian Army to restore order. Besides, the Israelis won't mind because they have good reason to trust the Egyptians since they have honored their part of agreements made with Israel for the past three decades which is more than can be said for the Palestinians.

"But once I get into the groove, it is easier for me to believe in what you are saying, and also that president Mubarak is the democratically elected representative of Egypt." - gRIM BRO. The recent election in Egypt was at least as honest as the last one here in the United States. Mubarak didn't even need help from Diebold.

And I say that the Qu'ram does order believers to kill unbelievers. I know it because I have read it.

Paul, would you please tell 'solly' how to release his caps key, and 'the avenger' how to use the shift key? They are fellow residents in your small country, I am certain they must be close at hand.

"WHY DONT THEY JUST DISMOUNT THE SYNAGOGUES, AND RE SET THEM UP ELSEWHERE, IN ORDER THAT SANCTITY AND SACRALITY ARE RESPECTED......" - solly Solly, I have asked a fellow Londoner of yours who usually signs his name in all lower case, and types his Subjects and Text in all CAPS to lay off the Uncials. Would you please do the same?

"The Palestinians might hope to get a state in 100% of the Gaza Strip and about 92% of the West Bank which lies to the east of the security fence, but the rest of the West Bank including the Israeli settlements of Ariel and Ma`aleh Adumim and East Jeruselum you can kiss goodbye. Ok, we get the 92% of the West Bank and then we keep up the struggle until we get the remaining 8%. Anyway, If we don't, other Muslims will.

You, like many others are still believe that Barak offered 97% of the West Bank to the Palestinians. Even if he did, where were the 3% that he was keeping? They were cutting the West Bank into sections, just as sharon is doing right now to make sure no real state emerfges. For the rest of your response, maybe you should directly responded to the comments, but again like many others, when you don't have anything good to say, you get way off topic. Believe me, I know the history of Israel and the struggle of the Palestinians better than you will ever dream of knowing. Meanwhile support reason, not emotions.

Avenger, how did you beat pAUL hARRIS to the punch on the forums today. Usually he is posting first, with his name in all lower case and his text in either all lower case or all caps. You are 'both' in the UK (or was that uk?), did you drug him so you could post first?

It takes me a while to realize that you really believe in the falsehood that you are perpetrating. But once I get into the groove, it is easier for me to believe in what you are saying, and also that president Mubarak is the democratically elected representative of Egypt.

"There have already been several firefights between the PA security forces and the Palestinian militant groups, murders are common place for political reasons or because the victim was suspected of being an Israeli collaborator". This is the modern, 21st century state that the palestinians have been fighting for since 1948 Jeff....and they still didn't get the W.Bank and E.Jerusalem. I mean even if the guy happened to be a collaborator with Israel, isn't there a judicial system. I dont know if this is following Islamic law or not cause I don't know Islamic law so I can't profess about it. But even if not, it's simply wrong to murder a soul...he could be tried... But ay here's the trick Jeff...the palestinians can always blame Israel for not giving enough "space", "time", or "capacity" for a proper trial. And since israel isn't there anymore, this is pure jibberish. Hence it will be blamed on Israel once again. Best regards, Omid.

BN wrote "shas is not walking around armed to the teeth" They don't have to. They have a state that sends F-16s to drop 2-ton bombs on sleeping women and children in Hay al daraj in downtown Gaza.

Kim, Mr.Lincoln told you yesterday that what you said about Muslims orderd to kill unbelievers was not true..and you are repeating the same lie again..and you claim you have read it in the Quran! What kind of Quran is that...written by Pat Robertson? I tell you, such black lies degreade the level of this forum. Ok, you hate Islam and Muslims! but try to cut down on the black lies....don't lie and then say "I read in the Quran."

Kim, We are not complaining to you, certainly.

the palestinians would like to be given all the territories but nothing in return !!! they must prove that they want to leave in peace with israel by disarming all those killers from hamas to jihad and the others

You wrote "Giving the barbarians half of Jerusalem would......................." "We have become a barbarian people" Sholamit Aloni, Ma'ariv, 2003. This one of your former ministers saying this, not me.

you wrote "once again khalid you forget that arab terror against Jews started long before 1967,as a matter of fact arabs killing Jews started long before 1948 " In 1948, you destroyed and obliterated 480 villages and banished our people to the four corners of the world, and you committed numerous massacres. Your organized terror against our people invited a reaction. in short, your hands in 1948 were far from clean. They were stained with our blood as heavily as they are today.

azzam, i am sorry if you think i "inflate" the palestinian terrorist threat but i do not think over 1,000 complertelty innocent people being killed and their murderers being praised is something that is a small matter. The Russian Jewish probelm was different...they werent allowed to leave and were also prosecuted. But i wouldnt expect you to know much about unbiased history as you are someone who thinks Arafat was a great man and not a gay murderer with AIDS and you think the temple mount didnt exist when all you have to do is go there to see where it was!! Clearly, unbiased history is lost on all palestinians as they are tought to hate Jews through TV and in school. I have seen it wit my own eyes, so you cant really claim thats not true. Its not your fault you are ignorant towards truth, but it doesnt make you any less ignorant. I have friends who WERE kicked out of Iran, Iraq and Egypt so its not even a matter of history as much as it is a matter of knowing people in that situtaion. But since we have established that you prefer ignorance and lies, i wouldnt expect you to understand.

For once I agree with part of what you said. There will be no peace. Giving the barbarians half of Jerusalem would be a sin no Israeli leader will probably ever do and it was offered before and you guys didn't take it. I think you just like fighting, in not with the Jews, with yourselves then.

HE APPEARS NOT TO WORK EITHER

You have been given the opportunity to have your country many times, since 1947, but you never wanted it. Khalid: " In this part of the world, history is measured not in years, but centuries. 58 years, or even 100 years, are nothing..in historical terms." The you can have 100 or 200 years of misery if you want to. But it is your choice, so you have no right to complain.

Hamas has its ideology and Hamas is part of the Palestinian people. Their charter can be changed, that's true. But they are not willing to do so. And it is not only Hamas but also the PLO. And the other terrorists groups. Hamas maybe is not the government, because the government is the PLO but their interest is the same. And so the PLO has been funding the terrorist groups. Israel doesn't have a charter to exterminate the Arabs. They only want to live in peace but are not allowed to do so. Israel shouldn't recognise the Palestinians till the Palestinians recognise Israel. Because that's the problem, that the Arabs don't recognise Israel's right to exist and have always been trying to destroy it. You say that some Israelis reject the Palestinians. In democratic countries it happens that the people can have different opinions. But what matters if that the state of Israel does, not a group of people. The Qu'ram says that the "believers" have to kill Jews and other people. I have read it. And what the Palestinian clerics now say in their sermons is that the Muslims have to attack Israel till it disappears.

So. . . the dilemma is. . . Jews destroying synagogues sends the wrong message to the world, that we don't care enough about our own religion. . . . or . . . Palestinians destroying the synagogues, and they may have a huge celebration about destroying the Jews. . . . what to do? In our opinion (Ryan age 14, Emily age 12, and mom). . . Jews should dismantle the synagogues (notice the symantics of the use of the word dismantle vs. destroy) The Jews the world over should mourn and hold Tisha b'Av type ceremonies over this great sadness.

WHY DONT THEY JUST DISMOUNT THE SYNAGOGUES, AND RE SET THEM UP ELSEWHERE, IN ORDER THAT SANCTITY AND SACRALITY ARE RESPECTED......

But, yes, If Israel and the Palestinians don`t reach a real and durable solutions for the conflict with 5-10 years, the conflict will morph into a worldwide religious conflict..with the potential of a nucleare holocaust. oh yes - pakistan will bomb us and or iran will invade and us you think the world cares - grow up,if the world cared it would be different - far far more pressing issues than you and us - dont kid yourself bm

Until the Palestinians outlaw their terrorist organizations, --- Hamas, etc. will be the only voice the rest of the world hears. Societies that embrace terrorism are morally repugnant. Unless the Palestinians step up, there is no hope for Gaza or any Palestinian society.

shas is not walking around armed to the teeth, shas is not dragging men into the street and shooting them shas is not an armed group and neither is lkud or labour in israel there is one law and one army and one police in gaza unless you dont know it there are many factions all fighting for supremacy stop the trite and speak some sembelance of truth if possible bm

once again khalid you forget that arab terror against Jews started long before 1967,as a matter of fact arabs killing Jews started long before 1948. So when you state that there will be peace after a withdraw to the 1967 borders, I find that hard to believe. You seem to claim that by doing this we are giving you something that once once yours.while we all know that from 1948 to 1967 Judea and Sameria where illigelly annexed by Jorden and Gaza by Egypt, from 1921 to 1948 British mandate, and for 400 years before that part of the ottemen empire, and historically has always been the homeland of the Jews, nowhere in history is there a arab homeland in any part of Israel let alone a "palestinian"one. I suggest the arabs stop re-writting history, stop teaching there children to hate and kill and stop blaming Israel for all it's problems, then maybe we could move twords a peace where Israel will give up more of it's land to placate the arab world who is so unwilling to help there "palestinian brothers" Am Yisrael Chai

Bread, it is true, the conflict is morphing into a religious conflict. Don't you see that most Israel Jews here are evoking religion..and the Lord..etc., and the evangelicals who are forging alliances with Gush Emunim against Islam. don't you read Kim's and sumayya's messages here? But, yes, If Israel and the Palestinians don't reach a real and durable solutions for the conflict with 5-10 years, the conflict will morph into a worldwide religious conflict..with the potential of a nucleare holocaust.

Kim, our rights are not a matter of opportunities. We will persue these rights as we have been since 1948. In this part of the world, history is measured not in years, but centuries. 58 years, or even 100 years, are nothing..in historical terms.

Kim, Hamas is part of the Palestinian people, just as Shas, Augudat, National Union, Mifdal, Gush Emunim,etc. are parts of the Israeli Jewish people. Nearly all right-wing and religious groups in Israel have written and unwritten charters rejecting the Palestinians. Some, like the settlers, your allies, actually insist that non-Jews in Palestine/Israel be forced into a status of slaves. Hamas has its ideology and charter. It is not a Quran. It can be changed. Indeed, why should Hamas change its charter before the Israeli right changes its charter. In fact, what we are calling for is mutual recogniton..the Palestinians can't recognize Israel until Israel recognizes Palestine. This is what I call common sense.

It would seem to me that unless the Palestinians had oil money that could be skimmed the UN would have little interest. Perhaps the French... oh wait. The Russians... oh sorry. The Germans... same thing. Sorry El Birawi. Your post misses the point that Israel was simply engaged in realpolitik in dealing with Arafat. It was the Palestinians who created and maintained this monster. Its your own people to blame for your situation. You did not have the courage of the Ukrainians, or even the Lebanese to stand up to his despotic authority. Don't blame the Jews.

Howdy Khalid; The Palestinians might hope to get a state in 100% of the Gaza Strip and about 92% of the West Bank which lies to the east of the security fence, but the rest of the West Bank including the Israeli settlements of Ariel and Ma'aleh Adumim and East Jeruselum you can kiss goodbye. After the security fences are complete, the Palestinian military option will be practically dead because there will be no way for sufficient Palestinians militants to survive and hold territory on the Israeli side of the fence. I suppose the militants can fire a few inaccurate mortar rounds and Qassam missiles over the fence, but that will only invite a massive Israeli counter fire and possibly temporary reoccupation. Your threat of further conflict unless your demands are met is rapidly becoming impotent.

Andy Murray said" and whose misery has for the most part been caused by your people."When this is patently false.The Palestinians have been manipulated and abused since 1948 by their own corrupt and hate filled leadership.They are still served by gangsters and fanatics e.g the gun battle which resulted in the death of Arafats nephew has been conveniently swept under the carpet.Few palestinian leaders care about a fiction that is a palestinian state, and if they ever come to govern such a place then Hell will seem a kinder place.

Forgot to mention that Canada is on "war foot alert" in case Danemark decides to invade the small rock south of Iceland. Now, that a prespective, such a huge country, Canada, will not even entertain any compromise with the "friendly" Danish 9who by the share the Euro-Christian affinity with the majority of Canadians)

This is the heart of biblical Israel,unlike Gaza and Sinai. Khalid says everyone knows Israel will eventually leave the west bank and Jerusalem. Thats everyone except the Israelis and the majority of the Jewish diaspora.Khalid suggests unending war between the muslims and the jews if Israel doesnt relent.The logic of this argument suggests that the muslims have more staying power than the Jews.Doesnt he know that we were in exile for 2000 years.We never gave up then even when it seemed hopeless.Dont you think we are determined enough Khalid?

I think your proposal of negotiating with Hamas deserves studying and Israel should have the guts to do it.I think Israel was behind driving the Palestinian Authority into this point of weakness through destroying most of its establishments. Allow me to add the following if this will anger Khalid, the Palestinian Authority is full of corruption to the extent I find the situation is beyond repair. The armed groups have nothing to do with blackmailing people and theft, it's the make of the PA men, the killing of yesterday is a visible indication that the man was above the law and acting in a way that is terrible and terrible led to so many innocent people killed and a large range of blackmailing. People all over Gaza were so happy at his death.

I am just curious to know about your background, your environment, your Savoir Faire, and common sense. It is whethin your realm to satisfy you speculative mind, any alert human being has that faculty. However, your speculation has to have some basis in reality, not the reality of a North American citizen bu a reality on the ground of two people whose aspirations and design is extremely different. Not different in the humanistic sense, but in the way of achieving those hopes and aspiration. It is nice to moralise your next door neighbour in Toronto who basicaly does not threaten your "territory" (i.e. your house, car, family). THe worst can hapen is you don't like your neighbour you sale your "territory" and you move on next neighborhood. Now, the Jews in the history (it does repeat itsel, dear sir) tried to move to different neighborhood. Spain, France, Germany, Poland, North Africa), but were unable to settle because it was not THEIR TERRITORY. Yes, the Palistinian are part (and proudly they claim so!) of Arabo-Muslim world. Again Israel, has been pushed from her ancestral territory to which it finally returned to after 2000 years. Now, should I ask about your ancestry, I only can speculate that you are Irish and suffered quite a bit within the English territory till finally Ireland became independant from England, and you have a chance now to go back to it should you teritory has been threatened by vandals. Speculation! But that is the reality for some people (see: France, Germany and Begium anti-semitism). You fill the rest of my concept.

Howdy Andy; An "enemy" is an armed, hostile force which is what Israel is having to contend with at the moment. Furthermore, the Palestinian militants are sworn to destroy the "Zionist entity" and guess what? Most people like myself actually believe them. Therefore, it is not surprising that Israelis consider the Palestinians to be the enemy especially when most Palestinians support the goals of their militants. Nobody is "helping them fail"; the Palestinians have been doing that themselves quite spectacularly since 1947.

Just like the Soviets refused to let the Jews leave, so to did various Arab states hold Jewish citizens hostage. Families were not allowed to travel together. Assets were frozen. And when Jews fled, it was without businesses or funds which were appropriated by the state. Of course you refuse to believe Jewish history, but that tack is nothing new, we've already seen how the Arab world attempts to deny the Holocaust, and perpetuates the false Protocols of the Elders of Zion, so why should denial of their direct actions be any different.

Hi, bm. Your are right ( yourpost 79. :)

Let us not forget that Israel was a partner with Arafat when it went along with the plans to have some 13 different security organizations, knowing that all of these will serve only one person, Arafat and serve the security interest of Israel. Will the frankenstien created by Arafat and Israel is now hauting both, Israel and the Palestinians. Since I believe that the PA is too weak and too disorganized and too corrupt to manage the disorder in Gaza, only an international trustee ship will address the issue. The Palestinians should go the UN Security Council and ask that the UN appoint a truseeship for the occupied territories for an interim period of 5 years. This way we get rid of Israel as an occuping power and we give the Palestinians a chance to get rid of all of the mess left from Arafat.

Every Arab country hates Israel, and wants to destroy Israel. Arabs greatly outnumber Israel. You see, these circumstances are too familiar for Jews from past experiences of being greatly hated and outnumbered in Europe and Middle East, until the climax occured during the holocaust. You say "If Arabs were expelling Jews, how come many Arab and non-Arab regiems (ethiopia, Russia, yemen) had to be coerced or bribed into letting their jewish citizens go to Israel?" who cares, Jews were oppressed in these regimes and finally glad to leave by any means.

it might be nice if you knew the history of how Israel "occupied" the west bank. They won them in a DEFENSIVE WAR.....6 times plus 2 intifadahs and countless fedayeed raids !!!!! Israel is stronger-----yes they are----does that mean she is the guilty party? I dont think so. 1948 partition---Israel said yes, arabs said no and told their "brothers" to leave so they can drive the jews into the sea---THIS IS FACT 2000 -- Barak oferred Arafat 97% of west bank, east jerusalem and all of gaza. What did Israel get? Intifadah #2 -negotiation may have been nice if they wanted more---NO? LEts see....they dance on the roofs when scuds hit Tel Aviv, they dance when 9/11 hapenned,,,and they dance when one of their 'brothers' blows himself up taking innocent women and children. I would suggest you look into the history of the conflict....there you will find the truth....or if you feel brave: WWW.SHOEBAT.COM

Khalid: "When Israel leaves the occupied territories and allows Palestinians to establish a viable state on 100% of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, Hamas`s charter, will die a natural death." Hamas's charter establishes the aim of destroying Israel. So even if israel gave the Palestinians 100% of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, Hamas charter would not die.

i tend to see anybody who is trying to kill me as an enemy - my friends have not yet expressed a desire to kill me (yet). in my jaded view of this region developed over nigh on 40 years of fighting i see two camps who are implacably opposed to each other i see a small jewish land fighting to retain it's control and i see a HUGE arab and muslim world determined in the fulness of time to take the land from me i never forget who i am dealing with - i deal with them on a daily basis - they have their mentality and we have ours - we are poles apart i will not live as a dhimini to appease you or anybody,i will not divide my capital for you or anybody and i will not take back the refugees for you or anybody i will not take down the wall and i will back my army and my people to the last breath i have if israel falls then we are back to living with people like you - thanks but no thanks for you this is an excercise for me this is my life and my land bm

The reason I want Israel to declare a settlement freeze etc is because it will make Hamas less relevant in the best case scenario and make it easier for Israel to defend itselsf in the worse. If youve noticed for the past three months I have raving for Israel to do moves that will leave the door open to a good solution. it is because I fear and loath Hamas I want israel to stop being their pin the donkey prop and get the hell out of there as soon as is rationaly feasable. Then you can deal with Hamas telling you what you can watch at the movies and who is not dressed right and why public fountains are now banned because they lead to sculptures, all that of that will be your problem amigo as long as Israel has the means to turn that Jihadist noise off what do I care if you dont care about the monsters running around in your town.Maybe because you live in states you are less worried about monsters on the loose .Either way I have agreed with you 1000 times we need to move along to the end game,I do not use Hamas as an excusefor anything except trying to wake upour right wing dingbats who havnt gotten it through their thick heads that their is nothing for Israel to have found or to find there except dragons. I agree buddy Israel please go home,and a plane ticket to europe already! I have the same problem getting my posts up I write these long responses and they dont get on I write little ditties and they do. Regards Dude how did you like the ryhme?

The article mentions two opportunities the Palestinians were offered to have their own state: 1947 and Oslo. I believe that Camp David was a good opportunity as well.

" The Palestinians never miss an opportunity, to miss an opportunity Aren?t you people tired of reciting this phrase over and over again? What opportunities do you believe the Palestinians missed? Is it the ortunity of surrendering to the Israeli masters and accept every demand they put on them, from giving up on having jerusalem as their capital to having no borders with other Arab countries, by continuing to control the Jordan Valley. Or is it by continually building new and expanding settlements, along with that monster of walls they imprisoning all the Palestinians in? In the past 5 years, Israel made certain that all the PA public institutions were fully destroyed, so now they have to start all over again. Israel will not even allow their police to carry guns in certain areas, nor will it let the security forces obtain decent weapons to counter the strength of Hamas. Once Israel makes it?s intention clear that they do want peace and they are willing to get the hell out of Gaza (which they will not for a long time, since they will continue to control borders, air space and sea ports) and the West Bank, only then can people like you can judge the Palestinian peoples ability and determination to live free and in peace with their neighbors. Up to now, the Palestinians did not have an opportunity to miss, what they had and have is the misery of being controlled 24/7 by a brutal occupation that de-humanize everyday.. Wake up and demand from Israel what you are demanding from its prisoners, may be then we all could look for opportunities that neither side will miss.

Article "To achieve this, the international community is willing to invest not only diplomatic effort, but also aid totaling billions of dollars over the course of several years." What will happen if the PA does with the money the same as in Arafat times? Will the international community stop giving the money? Will there be some institution to watch where the money goes to?

Howdy Omid; It was predictable. There have already been several firefights between the PA security forces and the Palestinian militant groups, murders are common place for political reasons or because the victim was suspected of being an Israeli collaborator, and the PA cannot keep out the looters and squatters from the former Israeli settlements. That's just great! If the situation gets worse and the if the PA can't regain contol, the Egyptian Army will be forced to intervene to restore order.

Levy, the Peace process is based on the Land-for-peace formula. When you get our of the West Bank, Gaza and E. Jerusalem, then you can expect reciprocity from us.

Khalid wrote: "And you say you will never leave the West Bank, and you will leave. Why? because the alternative would be unending war between Judaism and Islam." Wait a minute, Khalid! You just showed us that this isn't a political issue in your mind, but a religious one. Making clear your intentions to not live peacefully with Jews (synonymous with Israel in your mind) -- you call all posters who take a pro-Israel stance "occupiers" whether they are Israeli or not, you refer to a war b/w Jews and Islam. If you step back, can you not see how your approach, inability to see ANY shades of gray and clear disdain for Jews (interchangeable with policies/history of Israel?) serve to discourage even the most peace-loving people on the Israeli side? It's this single-mindedness -- and focus on religion -- that hurts your cause at least as much as terrorism (and yes, i know that in the ME, they say that all politics is religious, but neverending war between judaism and islam? come on...)

As for Jordan, Jordan didn't accept the Israeli conditions of "joint Israeli-Jordanian administration of the West Bank" whereby Israel controls the Land, and Jordan controls the population (Arabs).

"Think for a second about logic and reality and you will see the reason Israel wants to be jewish is clear. After just about every arab coutry including afghanastan, egypt, iraq, and iran have pretty much either killed or kicked out all of its jews," be honest Simon. You have not been very truthful with your historical narrative. There are so many contradictions in your story of jewish expulsion that one day some credible historian will shed light on. I mean how come you don't call the migration of hundreds of thousands of russian jews to israel EXPULSIONS? That's because they happened at a time when you could not fabricate the facts. If Arabs were expelling Jews, how come many Arab and non-Arab regiems (ethiopia, Russia, yemen) had to be coerced or bribed into letting their jewish citizens go to Israel? Do you see the contradition here? Fact is, the expulsions were so limnited in scope and number but just as you blow everything out of proportion to ratinalize the violent uprooting of gentiles in holy land, you exploited isolated incidents of ethnic strife to ligitimzie the jewish safe heaven spin. I am not sure I beilive much about your history, after I have seen you make thing up about the palestinains. i am not alone in this. be prepeared to have all the books re-written again. YOu have always inflated the palestinian threat. and you have always inflated every crisis for political pusposes and as a PR cover for crimes you have committed against the gentiles that are far more devistating in their outcome.

They allways do.

"why interupt your enemy why they are making mistakes?" -BM I think it goes further than "not interrupting their mistakes" to the realm of "helping them fail". The main problem is you continue to see the Palestinians as your "enemy". In your worldview, there is no place for reconciliation, compromise and understanding. You forget that you are dealing with people who have dreams and aspirations for themselves and their children that are not that different from your own, and whose misery has for the most part been caused by your people. Try to think about it this way. Maybe life would be better and happier for you and your children!

Whatever they build in Gaza will be based on chaos, mess, violence and corruption.

I think unless Israel gives up the West Bank and East Jerusalem to the Palestinians, the potential reasons for more uprisings will exist and we may take more time, war and casualities till Israel comes to its right mind again. I think Israel has to take lessons of its experience in Lebanon and Gaza and save both the Israelis and Palestinians more deaths and destruction. I think we can find common grounds on which we can live with the Palestinians peacefully and in harmony.

"Ibrahim, you meet my theory that even moderate Palestinians do not give Israel hope for a change." Tulip, You are exposing yourself as quite a rejectionist. If you take a comical spoof on a schoolyard rhyme and turn that into: I have no faith in Palestinians to make peace.... ....well then, that makes you obviously incapable to do the hard work required for both sides to forge a peace based on comprimise... Tulip-please re-evaluate what you are trying to accomplish, and please be HONEST. Ibrahim

I don't buy into it when you frame your discourse,with the kind of imagery or catch-phrases that is meant to panic or scare--- a "moment of choice",a "window of opportunity" that will not come again,an "experiment" that cannot fail. Having witnessed the Oslo"experiment",it is patently obvious and clear to anyone who can see,that it wasn't an experiment at all.It was a process to get from point A(Palestinians without a state and settlers in the territories),to point B(Palestinians with a state and no settlers in the territories).Anyone dumb enough to actually believe that this was an experiment,to see if the Palestinians could live as a civilized people next door to Israel is a dupe.Sure,it would have been a nice by-product,but it wasn't the purpose of the Oslo experiment...if it were the purpose,then it would have been declared a failed experiment and the neccesary conclusions would have been drawn,ie)the process would have been stopped. The conclusion that I've drawn from this whole thing,is that Palestinian statehood(ie Israeli withdrawl)is inexorable...like a bulldozer.There is no stopping it;Palestinian behavior will not influence "if" there will be a state,only,perhaps,how fast that state will come about. In the end I see an extremely truncated Israel,being protected in the North,the east,and the south by UN,European,maybe even NATO troops...exactely how our zionist fore-fathers envisioned it.Not bad;from Ben-Gurion to Woody Allen in a generation or two.

Howdy Johanes; The Gaza Strip will shortly become "unoccupied" by Israel. Will it be "free"? That depends on the Gazans themselves. True; the northern and eastern border of the Gaza Strip will be controlled by the IDF which is the right of any country to do and its coastline and airspace will be controlled by the Israeli Navy and Air Force respectively which is permissible during a period of armed conflict. However, the southern border with Egypt (the Philidelphi route) is to be controlled not by Israelis but by Egyptians. A prison with three walls and a roof is not a prison unless the Egyptians make it one by providing the fourth wall. A "safe passage" between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip already exists. Any Gazan can pass through the Egyptian check points along the Philidelphi route, travel across the Sanai to an Egyptian port, take a ferry to the port of Aqaba, be checked by Jordanian border guards, travel through Jordan to the Allenby bridge, be checked by Israeli border guards, and presto--you are in the West Bank. A land route through the Negev would have to be at least 40 Km. long and require 80 Km. of security fence patrolled 24/7 by the IDF in order to keep the terrorists from getting into Israel proper. Who's going to pay for that? You? Any ship attempting to enter or leave a Gazan port and which refuses to be inspected by the Israeli Navy will be either seized or sunk. Ships which allow themselves to be inspected will be allowed to pass. The reason why the Israelis tore up the runway of the Gaza International Airport was because the Gazans were smuggling in arms and munitions that way. If they try that again after the runway is repaired, there will a dozen 2000 lb. bomb craters in the runway the next morning courtesy of the Israeli Air Force. It's time for the Gazans to put their guns in the closet and work together to build a viable economy. If chaos reigns and the Gazans start fighting each other which seems to starting to happen, the Egyptians will have no choice but to move in to restore order. And if you think that the Israeli occupation was draconian, just wait until the Egyptian Army shows up.

If I recall correctlly, it was the Arabs who in the eary years of the XX wanted to trow the jews to the sea,,,,,, and now you have the hutzpah to say that the fact that the jews do not want to be a minority in yet another mayority arab state is racism? Be real!, be serious!... come on!!! Who are the racists? who fell humilliated because they could not get rid of these small people escaping horrors from Europe, who felat thretened in their self immage by people who came to work and in a short period made amrvellos advances in all fields that eluded the Arab world for centuries.. and let me clarify.. THIS IS NOT RACISM .. it is just a statement of fact.. in fact I would gladdly recognize that these same Arab peoples where able, in the past, of constructing a very enlightened society: at the time of the dark ages of Europe , the Arab civilizations represented the light for the world.. ( racism, on the other hand, would argue that some genetic characteristic would made these peoples iunable to do so) ....but today.. they have their own dark age... and one of their problems is their failure to recognize it! They have foccus instead in hate, and Israel is their favorite target... RIGHT?

Isarel is suuposed to negotiate with the Palestinina Authority? What for? Their words are valueless... they commit to things they not only fail to carry out but then they have the hutzpah to decaler they will not do.. like dismanteling terrorist organizations.... They where once given weapons to ensure security but used them insted against innocent israelis... what is the point on negotiating with that kind of people? In fact I feel it would be better to negotiate with Hammas.. at least they mean what they say.. and, thus , there is at least some hope, that, if an agreenent could be reached ( which is a big IF and very unlikelly one indeed) they will keep their side... Negotiating with the PLESTINIAN AUTHORITY IT IS JUST A WASTE OF TIME.... NO!!!! IN FACT IT IS WORSE... BECAUSE TO THE WORLD, IT GIVES THE IMPRESSION THAT THEY ARE A PARTNER , WHILE IN TRUTH THEy HYPOCRITICALLY ALLOW TERROR AGAINST ISRAEL TO CONTINUE... THUS MAKING IT HARDER politically FOR ISRAEL, TO TAKE THE MEASSURES IT NEEDS TO TAKE TO DEFEND ITS CITZENS.... So please Kahlid... be serious..or else we will think you are as duplicitous as the Patlestinian Authority itself....

Think for a second about logic and reality and you will see the reason Israel wants to be jewish is clear. After just about every arab coutry including afghanastan, egypt, iraq, and iran have pretty much either killed or kicked out all of its jews, Israel doesnt want to end up a arab majority who would do the same the first chance it gets. How do i know this?? All i have to do is see that EVERy arab country has done this and tha PA which wants ALL o f israel for its lands, and has resorted to terrorism by thugs and murderous cowards would do the same in a heartbeat!!! Besides, how can you with a straight face accuse israel of being racist when all you do is spew hatred towrands Jews and ignore the fact that EVERY arab coutry treats JEws the same way??? why arent they racsist?!?!?! when was the last time you looked in a mirror!?!? (HAARETZ, IF YOU ALLOW HIS HATEFUL LIES AND RANTS, PLEASE PRINT MY RESPOSNE!!!)

Simple psychological analogy: after a child that has been violently molested his whole youth becomes parent himself, often this means he start molesting his own children. The lack of any organisational control of its own people can be found in the fact that the Israeli occupier never allowed Palestinians to organise or form institutes. They were totally happy to let a small dictator go loose at his own people. They never encouriged any independent civil organisations. As Haaretz writes, the Palestinians have never had the opportunity to develop a national system. What they did have the opportunity for was to develop a tribal war lord system, because of the Palestinian anger and desire to resist the Israeli oppression. That's what was priority no 1 for the Palestinians. Just like Israelis themselves always keep on believing that 'security' is their biggest priority. By becoming a security obsessed state, it forgot about basic human laws, writing a constitution, making borders and ultimately they prefered their 'solution' to the security problem (the occupation policies) to making peace. That's what you call putting the horse behind the wagon. Israelis should start seeing security as a product of a just peace, not as a product of an injust occupation. Israel should finance and facilitate the institute building of the Palestinian state. THAT is what will create real security. So, open the airport, build the Gaza seaport, train the Palestinian custom services, train the Governmental agencies in population management, etc. I think the Palestinians deserve Israeli support for the restoring of their destroyed civil society. Its destruction was for the larger part by the hands of Israel. Getting out of their, closing the gates and let them rot is a garantee for new disasters that will confront Israel later (violently). So, Israel can make a choice. I'm afraid we all know what Israel will choose and in the end the only Israeli activities in Gaza will be those of the IDF.

nobody has the truth - least of all you. bm

israel is perhaps negotiating with abbas and abbas is not speaking for the palestinian people abbas is not speaking for azza and you well know it and he can hadly claim to be speaking for the families that today run beit lehem or nablus or even jenin - each has their own agenda so long as there is not one gun,one law and one authority you can be happy to know that not much if anything will change you will (of course) blame israel - but for any chance of an independent palestine which as we both know will never be 100% free you will need to look in your garden at your gnome not ours bm

Haaretz isn't publishing my more serious posts...for some reason...And YOU Danite, I had so many wonderful rebuttals from yesterday, and those fools didn't publish the post.... Regarding Hamas. They aren't a tool to be kept in reserve. They are a reality that can't be ignored. If they are so bad and evil, then why are the Israelis talking to them? It is simply not possibly for Hamas to force an "islamofascist" state down the throats of Palestinian. I am not as conserned about that as you are. If Hamas is so intent on destroying Israel, why haven't they issued a fatwe against Abbas for welcoming MORE TALKS WITH ISRAELIS. My main point is: Keep your eyes on the Prize. Peace and Comprimise. Rather than get sidetracked with FEAR and PARANOIA. Peace, friends. Ibrahim

the pa allowed over the last 5 years since the outbreak of the 2nd intifada for the various factions to run their own cities and their own villages and their streets arafat long ago lost real control of his kingdom and today abbas has no ability or stomach to tackle the extremists so long as there is not one law and not one gun and not one leadership then the palestinians can look forward to a decade of internal strife the root of the problem as not israel it was arafat and his idea and method of leadership today we see the scorn and contempt of the arafat family by the people i have seen the enormous wealth the leading families in both the w/b and aza ammased for themselves - this huge money and the various monopolies were trademarks of the arafat era - he bought his power and then wasted his power and today the power in aza is with hammas and in the w/b with the families who today control every facet of life does it suit israel - why not - why interupt your enemy why they are making mistakes? bm

Word! MC Ronnie's in the house. Too bad Ha'Aretz doesn't have an attachment function as this would have sounded better if you could have added a beat or some sampling.

Ibrahim, you meet my theory that even moderate Palestinians do not give Israel hope for a change. There can be no comprise on both sides: Israel must end the occupation and you and the ret of all Palestinians, modearte or not, must put down guns, boms and rhetoric. As long as you do not do this, you are part of the tribal thinking movement, as far as I am concerned.

When it comes to Hamas we are the only two here in touch with reality, the rest are running away from them like kids from scary monsters. Regards Danite

Wow...I actually DID think that once Israel is out of Gaza there will be no more violence in the Strip. Well turns out I was wrong, and that I must admit. I always knew arabs loved guns, violence, and anarchy...i just never expected that they'll even start killing each other to cling to this eternal love. Great Start in your nation-building process arabooo...I can smell the scent of democracy, human rights, and respect for secular civil law already.

Mr. Murray , you are looking in the wrong direction. Please name ONE Arab country fit for dogs to live in , let alone human beings. My advice is to let the the Palestinians carry on murdering each other , and then there will be less for us to tackle when the time comes.

Khalid, with respect, you do yourself a great disservice here: if Jacob lectures, you wax polemic and yet we 'listen' to you. My friend if you dish it out, you must learn to take it.

Read Ali's post. I guess you don't have an answer because you can't handle the truth. Why didn't Jordan want West Bank? Why didn't Egypt want the Gaza strip back? you are evading the truth. The reason is beacuse these fellow Arab countries did not want to help their fellow Arab "Palestinians". Your own Arabs degraded you! Your own Arabs knew that many of the PA's were of no use! It looks like your own Arabs should take a great blame on your suffering! Israel has given away so much land, you have done nothing.

Indeed Khalid I am quite fit to lecture you on the truth since apparently you are willing to lie to yourself as well as the rest of the world. You, like the rest of the Arab world duck and dodge responsibility. The Arab world dodges its responsibility for the Arab/Israeli conflict. The Palestinians dodge and duck their resonsibility in the conflict as well. Instead, we get rationalizations for baby killing and falsehoods in pursuit of your nationalistic goals. Unfortunately you can't handle the truth. Remind yourself this every time you wonder why the world is providing accolades to Sharon and placing HAMAS on the terrorist watch list. Remind yourself this every day that Israel keeps control of the Rafah crossing. Remind yourself this every time the request for a link between Gaza and the West Bank is rejected. Remind yourself this every time the refugee demand is laughed down. Remind yourself this when you wonder why the Palestinians continue to trip over their own feet in pursuit of their nationalistic goals.

"Wouldn`t it be much more mature to offer israeli citizenship, with strict clauses of allegiance to the State, to all those residents of the West-Bank who would like to have it" But that makes sense. And solutions that make sense to you and me don't make sense to jewish supremacists and zionist zealots. What you are proposing is seen by your comrades as the "demographic threat" a siniter and utterly racist term used with ease by many jews.

"Israel has clearly showed its intentions through the tremendous efforts of evacuating Gaza. Another such withdrawal from the West Bank cannot occur immediately after the Gaza Withdrawal because it would again require great economic costs and military deployment." Really? What intentions? You left because the political and economic cost was too high. because folks were already starting to talk about boycotts, embargos, isolation. You left because foregin investment was not coming in and migration was slowing down. Finally, your departure was a redployment not an independence for the palestinians. Go read the news, you have just decided to seal Gaza for 6 months. What independence? this is a redeployment. At best, it's a PR stunt. http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/isrlpa9806.htm Gaza "Disengagement" "The Israeli Cabinet adopted Prime Minister Sharon's Gaza "disengagement" plan on June 6, 2004, and the full Knesset gave its approval on October 26. The plan calls for the withdrawal of Jewish settlers and the redeployment of Israeli troops to posts on the Israeli side of the border with Gaza, while Israel will retain control of Gaza's borders, coastline, and airspace. Israel is reserving the right to launch incursions into Gaza, and will continue to control Gaza's economy and trade, telecommunications, water, electricity, and sewage networks. The plan explicitly envisions the demolition of hundreds more homes along the Gaza-Egypt border in order to expand the buffer zone there. The plan states that the disengagement "will serve to dispel the claims regarding Israel's responsibility for the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip." In fact, under international humanitarian law, the steps envisioned will not end Israel's occupation of the territory, and Israel will retain responsibility for the welfare of Gaza's civilian population."

But the joke is on you. You can deny what you need to but the fact is you think you can keep Hamas is reserve "in case" they are "needed" and then leash them when you want to. That is the same folly arafat deluded himeslf with.You have our reasons I guess for denying what isin plain site, but when I read comments like that coming even from you I know israel must free itself from Palestine more than ever, that way you can be free to play whatever games you want with Hamas.As for ryhme with Islamic Jihad 'Ibrahim is a smart fellow but he has been had, if he keeps laughing at the devil he sure will be sad, his buddy Danite told him so ,he said dude 'you must be mad" this Islamo facism wont last , its just a fad, so laugh it up laugh it up its you who will pay I just hope by then israel will be very far away! Have a good one danite

Ibrahim,Ibrahim trying to understand what you mean are you saying that Islamic Jihad is really not that bad? that the family in Netanya still are together? And what of Hamas? Fifty percent of the Palestinians want to Damn us. Mashaal and his words will make us the Kurds as Israel goes to the birds? No No Ibrahim This is not what negotiation means Drop the absolutism from your scene and live in peaceful evolution what we need is a two state solution Hamas MUST let go of their dream It really is for us obscene but to get back to a reasonable place and live in peace for the kids its will be great and throw away this pan muslim notion and get the good stuff going in motion for it is us that has to make a safe world for all our kids sake

Ronnie...Gush Emunim + Likud + National Union+ Mifdal + Agudat Yisrael + Shas + Transferists = majority in Israel

Ronnie...Gush Emunim + Likud + National Union+ Mifdal + Agudat Yisrael + Shas + Transferists = majority in Israel