Moshe Arens / Palestinian dream of statehood further away than ever

I don't mean to rub it in but Israeli support is a relic of the past today, especially after Lebanon in 2006 and now Gaza. How can Israeli officials claim they are moral and just people when they used such unGodly force against defenseless people with only primitive weapons to defend themselves? It's just beyond the pale. They are finished in the court of public opinion. Yet I would argue their end was predictable as resorting to force to impose their will is a dead end. Many American Jews I know are in disbelief and some have embraced the slogan "Not in my Name", plus the young genration of Americans are too far removed from WW 11 and the Holocaust and view the Pale-stinians as the victims of Israeli violence today In addition, the old boys club in Washington is near retirment and thus the Baby Boomers are your best bet for a deal. Just remember, they are against all war So smarten up and get out of the territories and bring forth a Palestinian state so you won't lose yours.

Why on earth should anyone go on supporting an Israeli state with one set of principles and laws for Jews and another for non-Jews? That isn't a moral and just state but a Jim Crow type state in my book. In addition, the whole injustice of occupying the Palestinian territories (changing the names to Hebrew doesn't change the sovereignty )and building illegal settlements to beat the band on Palestinian land is totally insane. Now those are the houses of cards 14 justices at the international Court in the Hague in 2004 said must come down. Yes, I imagine Obama will go on talking about how important the US/Israeli relationship is but if the heart and soul of the American people are fading toward it (like the war on Iraq & now Afganistan) it will fail. Thus if I were you I would worry more about the fading dream of Israel as the 14 justices have already spoken and said Israel must leave and void all its structures. Dutch

"Jordan's annexation [of the West Bank] was [...] not unilateral." (CJ) Actually it was. This is why, "Jordan's claim was never recognized by the international community, with the exception of the United Kingdom." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank

I agree w/ Moshe Arens. A mature commentator. Many things have to be resolved, the first of which being the release of Gilad and all the other prisoners in his exchange. Also when will they open the crossings or seal them completely once and for all, so that Egypt will be compelled to develop its relations w/ Gaza as a fellow community of Muslims. Since it is no longer Gush Katif. As for Abbas, who will come out in the exchange, where will they go, etc., is that not his business? Does he not have to oversee or keep track of it? And then, their elections in June. A lot of steps have to be taken. Netanyahu, in his gesture for peace, has pledged to curb settlements for the meanwhile, and has pledged to return his soldier to Israel. This we hope to G-d, is nearing completion.

Mark de la Lewiston would have us believe that in 5 years the Arabs are going to wake up and vote as a single block, thus garnering 25 or more seats in the Knesset. Mark - tell us what's going to happen in the next 5 years to cause that to happen. It's like telling us that Bin Laden is going to wake up one day and decide to stop killing Muslims (after the tens of thousands his people have killed in Iraq and Pakistan and Afghanistan). Ain't gonna happen. Just like swimming across the Niagra from Lewiston to Niagra-on-the-Lake....no matter how hard you stroke you're simply gonna end up in the middle of the lake.

Fantastic statement by Moshe Arens and outline of the reality of the situation

try realising that when you were a babe in diapers Moshe Arens was already a substantial individual....he has more wisdom in his left toe than you will ever have....and i'm sure you are a bright person but nothing compared to Arens.

Moshe Arens is both practical, factual, and helpful in writing this article. Before proceeding with a successful attempt at peace, the real facts should be clarified and recognized, so no one is operating under any false illusions. This article does that. There isnt a unified Palestinian organization to negotiate with, and any sort of "peaces result" now won't give Peace at all. The relationship between the US and Israel is exactly based on the facts and principles that Arens clarifies and states. Good job and article Mr. Arens.

No Pal state can be actualized apart from the US' UNSC veto. Obama's opportunity to impose upon Israel will only last for another 2 years maybe one. If the mid-term elections don't clip his wings the year long campaign for re-election will. Polls even now indicate that he'll follow his idol Jimmy Carter as a one term wonder. In these next 2 years the economy will impose upon him once again. Once the stimulus money runs out and the American people decide not to hand over more of their future, domestic affairs will become immediately more important than ME peace, let alone a state for past terrorist orgs. A raise in the price of gasoline alone could turn the majority of voters against the Arabs, if they weren't already so.

"The palestinians did not declare statehooed because they never intented to do so. In short palestinians did not want statehood in the past and dont want it now." A) Only a bigot would purposefully lowercase 'p'alestinians over and over and over.. B) It is a fact that the Palestinians have never in their entire history had full control over their territories C) It is also a fact that full control is a pre-requisite for declaring sovereignty. D) There is no law obliging any entity to declare statehood. E) Even if the Palestinians wanted to declare sovereignty, they could not have. F) I leave nonsense up to your kind. G) What is it you have you against facts, that you always deny them and willingly indulge in propaganda?

Impressive. I have never been a proponent of one state solution until i read Moshe Aren's impressive analysis as to why a Palestinian state will not become a reality. so now we have all those non-jews stuck in zionist purgatory. they can't declare a state. israel can't evict them and not suffer adverse consequences. so it sounds to me like the anti-Apartheid struggle allover again but now in israel

"There has NEVER been a time when the Palestinians could declare Sovereignty. .... It is a pre-requisite of Sovereignty that an entity have full control of all their rightful territories." The palestinians did not declare statehooed because they never intented to do so. In short palestinians did not want statehood in the past and dont want it now. The rest in nonesense justification.

Moshe and some of the posters here have ignored the demographic bomb and are likely to experience a work accident with it. They concentrate on preventing two separate and independent and viable states that they don't notice that the timer is running. Today, if all Arab Israelis turned out to vote, they'd get as much representation in the Knesset as Likud or Kadima. In five years, they could be running Israel if they so choose. That too is about when the pressure for a the disenfranchised Palestinians under Israeli control will really start to push for enfranchisement as more than 50% of the population west of the Jordan River. The Sunnis ruled a majority Shia population in Iraq for some time. But that time came to an end. The countdown is already ticking.

"If Palestinians want a state, they should drop their preconditions and get to the negotiating table." (Mark) Building and unifying the two parts of Jerusalem, while admitting that its status is subject to negotiation, sounds like eating a pizza while offering it for sell. The Palestinians will never be "starving" that much. No negotiations, no Palestinian state. No Palestinian state, no peace nor security for Israel. And ultimatively, no Israel at all.

these stateless palestinians are not likely to dissappear soon. a dream even further than theirs.any suggestions misha,or you?

i have never condemned america. i have some questions regarding this administration. israel had advised against attacking iraq. curveball was a plant from iraq opposition. read uk press and learn that the war had been decided on by bush and blair. to say that the war in iraq was waged to benefit israel is a malicious lie.

The Israeli settlements have made the two states solution impossible. Very wrong are those who think that a solely Jewish state can eternally survive the hatred it creates in the hearts of billions of Muslims. Just as wrong are those who think that a solely Palestinian state is attainable any time soon if ever. The only option left is a one secular state for all Palestinians and Israelis, in which all have equal rights and responsibilities ; a state in which all can live, work and travel any where in the holy land. Such a state will guard secular Israelis and Palestinians as well as the minorities of both peoples from a state ever becoming a theocracy. I believe any other alternative will, in the long run, spell the annihilation of both peoples and perhaps millions more.

Nationalism was imposed in 1964 by Nasser and the Arab League on a sub-group of Arabs along with the sub-identity of "Palestinian." Then, the same Arab nations pressured the U.N. into a permanaent welfare arrangment called "UNRWA",denied the Palestinians re-settlement, and imposed a destructive artifical nationalism on them and the fantasy of an "eternallyh inheritable right of return that passes from generation to generation." But for the manipulations of the Palestinians by the Arab states,there would be no "refugee problem." It was a problem created by design. Simply, a "Palestinan State" was never their dream, it was a dream imposed on them.

This is a bit disingenuous Moishe -- no amount of money could accomplish effective "nation building" under the restrictions placed on the Pals by this Israeli government.

Always condemning the country that treats you the best--America. Cipora, Americans are getting tired of the lack of peace..we know there were the Oslo Accords 15 years ago; and like a banana republic, assassination, a new poltical party and presto--no peace treaty any longer. Americans don't like that flip flapping. Bibi is the best flip flopper in a long time. I don't hear you thanking America for taking out Saddam from iraq. Even though the Mossad gave the world bad intelligence (read Woodward and the character "curveball.") We do too much Israel with little in return

And most East Jerusalem residents were offered and refused Israeli citizenship. Ignoramous.

Spread out through Iraq, Turkey, Syria, and Iran, the Kurds control no nation. Absent any real interest in a peace settlement with Israel, the Palestinians appear to be on the very same track with populations in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank, and Gaza. If this is the long-term trend, then it does not bode well for an independent Palestinian state.

Lets say the occupation is still justified on the grounds of security--why do Israelis make the leap that therefore settlements are ok? If if this is the "land of Israel"--why are the 2.5 million Arabs in "Judea and Samaria" not offered Israeli citizenship? I do not think the US and Israel share common values or Israel would pick one or the other.

After the 2-world war they was 50 million refugee,the number of palestinian was 0.75 million. All the refugee was assimilieted,Germany alone has some 18 million assimileted.not to assimiletmeans to prepare a war. unfortunatly 19 arab countrys and 57 islamic countrys some of them very,very rich was no aible to help them(or only with mony for weapon). Unfortunatly they don`t want to accept the reality.

... this is genuinely how the world perceives us... ... but we refuse to look in the mirror and perceive our current image...

A state is something you found, not something you receive as a present from an occupying power. We have nothing against the Palestinians founding their state. But they must do so not in declarations (like Arafat when he "declared statehood" in the eighties), but by assuming responsibility (none)showing unity (none) and stopping to raise preconditions for talks with us. That is outright childish

"Abbas is the generally recognized leadership of the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria, [but] his control of this area is far from complete." Arens has never been so correct. Our leaders have worked very hard so that no Palestinian leader should ever be in full control of the occupied territories - until they finally succeeded, in summer 2005, most brilliantly, it must be said, when they publicly humiliated the man his people had elected for Chairman by a clear majority, six months earlier. Further weakening Mahmoud Abbas for having refused to serve as a quisling - was Sharon's last victory. "We have not yet freed ourselves from the mindset of an occupier facing the occupied. We are unable to relate to the Palestinians as an independent entity with its own national considerations. Our decision makers must be constantly reminded that Abbas is no quisling nor collaborator." Major General (ret.) Shlomo Gazit, first Chief Coordinator of Israeli operations in the territories (1967-1974), and head of Military Intelligence (1974-1979), in Maariv, April 4, 2005. www.jewsforajustpeace.com/ Under: "Israel's contribution to maintaining the calm"

been shooting rockets at Israel in the past. And they are crying to the international community to force Israel to let them in. Now that is like a criminal who has shot half of your family members from outside your fence, but claims that if you let him move into your house he will be happy and not shot the rest of your family.

The author is right, when he says that the two-state solution is no longer feasible. The Westbank is infested with Israeli settlements, bypassroads and the wall / fence. The Palestinian Authority is a sham. However, since the international community will never alow the removal of the Palestinians, rightly so, the two peoples are condemned to each other. What kind of solution will bring peace and prosperity, and bring emancipation to the Palestinian people?

this administration differs from all previous ones by its ideological zeal. obama had chosen his advisors from among those who are most anti-israeli. they claim that israel is the central problem in the fight against terrorism. it is irrelevant that this proposition is strategic nonsense. without israel, europe would be totally exposed to militant islam in the eastern mediterranean. this is apparent when one looks at the order of battle in wwii in east mediterranean. the u.s. administration is filled with people whose ideology is that of "peace now" and j-street. strategy is not what interests them. haaretz is reporting that the eu will recognise east jerusalem as capital of palestinian state. such a decision is not likely to have been taken without the tacit support of the obama administration. one should not be fooled by the recent joint exercise. what will be given with one hand, will be denied with the other hand. politics has become the art of blackmail.

I think that will be the outcome. 2 failed states and Jordan when all is said and done. Gaza should go back to Egypt and the WB back to Jordan. I just don't see how a Pal state can make it economically. Between the birth rate, political rivalry, lack of any technological or industrial base the newly crowned state will fail. The Christian's are all but gone and tourism will evaporate. Nobody will invest in Gaza, if Dubai can't make it how can Gaza?

... by Moshe Arens and his ilk... ... the need and the will of the Pals, together with the support of all enlightened nations, will yet make a reality of the State of Palestine within the foreseeable future...

get real. to say that Israel, as the occupying power, is the only one who can make steps towards peace, and therefore is the only reason why peace is not yet established, is simply ridiculous. if palestinians want a state, they should drop their preconditions and get to the negotiating table. they dont have to accept a first offer, or any offer, but the establishment of preconditions shows that they do not want an offer, but rather want to be victims. i also think israel could do a lot more to establish peace with the palestinians, and believe that it will take a man or woman with more vision and courage than bibi to do it, but the palestinians certainly dont have to wait for that man or woman to show up.

Jordan's annexation was at the request of the Palestinians. i.e., not unilateral. It was annexed as a Trustee. Why should there be an outcry when it was legal? Only the Palestinians in the area that became Jordan had a right to citizenship. Only what remained of the Non-state entity of Palestine, was Palestinian. Likewise when Israel declared. Only what was left of the non-state entity of Palestine was Palestinian. There is only ONE Palestinian entity according to the UNSC (see UNSC res 1860 ) Pleasing the US President? You're living in a fantasy land. The settlements are ILLEGAL. It has nothing to do with 'pleasing' Obama. There has NEVER been a time when the Palestinians could declare Sovereignty. At no time have they ever had full control over all of their territories. Not during the British Mandate and not since. It is a pre-requisite of Sovereignty that an entity have full control of all their rightful territories.

It is not too late for a just peace and Palestinian statehood. The EU is stepping up to the challenge supporting a peace initiative that can be enduring ... recognizing a unilateral declaration of Palestinian statehood, support of a divided Jerusalem for capitols of both states, restoration of a contiguous, viable Palestine with 1967 borders and what appears to be many elements of the Saudi 2002 plan for peace. We should all support the EU's initiative. It provides the sponsorship Palestine needs in the face of a powerful Israel and its powerful partner, the USA. The EU provides much needed balance.

As an American whose ancestors arrived in New England in the late seventeenth century, I'd really like to know what exactly are the US/Israel common values of which Arens speaks? I'm baffled.

Is it because your lives are so miserable otherwise?

Arens: the land you're talking about is called the West Bank as recognized by most nations. You are correct that a lot of effort has been taken by the Europeans and others to help establish a Palestinian state. However, you conveniently omitted the fact that Israel has been undermining those efforts. Facts on the ground speak volume. Since the so called peace process"Oslo Accord", more confiscated land, more home demolitions, more sieges, more humiliation.. and the list goes on. As far as the settlements are concerned, The Israeli establishment has become a master of "removing trees without cutting the forest". "What? Oh it`s just a few guys in a trailer...oh, what? oh no it`s just those guys in a trailer and their families. What? oh no, well they just got tired of the trailer and decided to renovate it into a complete developed community. What? oh so a developed community can`t expand a little?What? Move out? Are you crazy? Look at the livelihood of this whole established community

Morover, what if regardless of all the correct historic facts Arens points out, the world gets tired of investing all that energy in futile waiting, and decides that the "Columbus egg" is simply smashing the status quo by declaring a de jure Palestinian state in pre 1967 borders, with east Jerusalem as its capital? What then?

I believe Moshe is correct. The two state solution is no longer viable, if it ever was. There can only be,one state, one man, one vote. It will likely be resolved in the next 10 years or less.

Israel occupies the west bank. Israel is the sovereign in the west bank. Any lack of formation of a state is entirely Israel's fault, as the occupying power. If Israel was serious about a Palestinian state, they would end the occupation. But no. It goes on.