Mohammed al-Dura lives on

Incredible that a Jew can feel so indifferent to the suffering of his people and cozy up to propoganda, lies, hatred of our enemies. That a self-purported journalist sees no harm in the meaning behind the French TV's lying and hatred of Israel shows Levy's true colors and mental and professional illness. You are not a journalist but only an espouser of anti-Jewish beliefs. If Haaretz did not employ you, you would be writing for every scumbag anti-Israel/Jewish organization in the world. You and your paper have reached new lows and someday will pay the price for such malicious Jewish self-hatred. Integrity, Levy. Fairness, Levy. Jewish pride, Levy. Your vitriolic way of thinking brings shame to Jews around the world.

In the name of free speech these talkbacks have become a vile engine for hatred against both Israel and Jews in general. If I would guess, this message will never get printed because I am not following the rue and writing an anti semitic note. I can understand these messages appearing on Al Jazera but an Israeli paper? Shame on you.

Gideon, I honestly admire your courage. You know too well as the IDF itself, that what you are saying in your article is true. It takes a great deal of guts and courage to speak the very well known truth that few dare to speak. Yes, some will curse you others will threaten you, but these are only the weak who have nothing concreat to say. People should realize that the days of muscle and threats are over, it did not work in Iraq not in Afghanistan and it has not been working in Palestine and Lebanon. The more these fanatics live in the illusion that the State of Israel is a merciful Angel unto the world, the more Israel will get into a terrible global position of no return. Zionists should start showing some modesty and accept responsibility. The argument that Palestinians are hiding behind their children is an old story. Actually, it was the IDF who was using Palestinians as human shield, a proven fact. Once again Gideon, Thanks a million for your courage.

Always seeing subterfuge, eh? why shouldn't I answer regarding your implied conjecture? I know you like people to be totally consistent with whatever opinions they may have exhited in the past - especially if those met with you approval. But some people evolve, or are simply a bit more complicated (S comes to mind - as he too is all over the place. Some days with you, some days with me or ANY or god knows who...). You always seem concerned when you can't put people into a box and just leave them there. I'm more willing to accept that there are real people behind many posters here, not just political positions. Besides "this" ivo gave me a compliment, so of course I like this particular incarnation (compliments get you everywhere? or at least that's what happens to humans...).

The Zionist entity with its racist supremacist attitudes and unjust oppressive policies has the seeds of its own destruction within it. It?s what will cause its final collapse. The occupation has caused us much material and physical damage, but it caused the oppressors much much more?their ethical decay, their sinking in the abyss of immorality, and their loss of human compassion. So, on the long term we are the victorious as history taught us. And even in the short term their loss is indeed greater than ours, our loss is only superficial and physical, theirs is the loss of the essence of their humanity. our bodies might be imprisoned and tortured, but our spirit is free, untouchable, and unbreakable. They have accumulated all the weapons that anybody could amass, but it can?t buy them one single fear-free moment. They have ghettoized themselves behind concrete walls, surrounded themselves with huge tanks, guns, bombs, but that has been futile in providing them a moment of security or tranquillity. You can see it in the eyes of a Palestinian child while looking into the eyes of an Israeli soldier. It is evident. so we are still victorious despite our apparent fragility and vulnerability; for our inner strength is greater that their outer might.

Palestine was occupied time and again, through out history, many kings, and many empires; Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Roman, Byzantine, Crusaders. They all came? they all gone And who ever stayed in peace was absorbed? and embraced And Palestine and its people remained Today?s occupiers will face the same fate They all came They all will go And whoever stays in peace will be absorbed? and embraced And Palestine and its people will remain The inevitable ruin of the Zionist entity does not and will not mean the destruction of the Jewish people.

1) they either carry on with their crimes: lying, killing, stealing, abusing and oppressing an entire people, isolating themselves further, and sinking deeply into the abyss of immorality; then frantically searching for peace and security, which they will never be able to find as oppressors, aggressors and occupiers. 2) Or they take a good look in the mirror and see what monsters they have become, and admit the crimes they committed against innocent people who had nothing to do with the anti-Semitic crimes of Europe, but they have been made to pay the price of those crimes. If they go for the first choice, they can blame no one but themselves for a bleak, desolate, dire, and awful future that awaits them, a future in which they can no longer afford to keep living in constant fear and endless wars, a future where it's only enough for them to lose ONE single war, and it will be over then. We can afford to lose many wars; there are millions and millions of Arabs and Muslims that surround the Zionist entity. And they can?t afford to lose any war, but when they do (it?s inevitable) they lose everything. Now, if they use their mind, and open their heart to the second option; which is acknowledging the wrongs they?ve committed against us, and recognizing that they?ve been unfair and unjust by stealing our country and denying us our natural human rights. Then :if they start by trying to address and correct those wrongs, and giving us our rights back, the right to live peacefully and move freely with dignity without humiliation and oppression, and with our humanity respected as their equals not their inferiors, and if they give all our refugees the right to return to their villages and towns; then and only then; we can say: ?will forgive you?. We will NOT say as some do; ?never forget, never forgive? We will forgive them. We have a culture that has hospitality and forgiveness at its heart. they either choose to make friends with their neighbours, and give them their due rights to get peace and security, or continue to create enemies by their oppression until the inevitable falls upon them The choice is theirs:

Let figures speak: -Since September 2000; Israeli killed 943 Palestinian children, and at least 4,160 Palestinian civilians, and injured 31,403. -Over a period of 60 years of brutal barbaric racist occupation of Palestine by Israel; Palestinians (regrettably) killed 118 Israeli children, -1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel -zero Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000. And over 18,000 homes have been demolished since 1967. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ who is the terrorist, I wonder?

violence perpetrated by Israel is one of ?aggression?; as: -They are the ones who are occupying someone else?s land. -They are the ones who destroyed 531 villages in 1948. -they are the ones who still defying 65 UN resolutions (forget the resolutions that are vetoed by USA) while the Palestinians had NONE against them. - They are the ones who committed televised multi-massacres and mass murder. -they are the ones who killed NINE times more Palestinian children against every Israeli child. -They are the ones who watched 68 women giving birth at checkpoints while 34 of their infants and 4 of them dying. -they are the ones who are denying almost 7 million Palestinian refugees from returning to their homes, and giving that right to any Jew, just because of his ?Jewishness?. -They are the ones who gave themselves the right to steal our homeland, just because they claim that God (whom they don?t believe in, as seculars) gave them that land!

Let us put some records straight: 1) The problem in Palestine is not just simply a problem of killing of children, checkpoints, or human right abuses the roots of the problem is the illegal occupation of the Palestinian land by the Zionist entity. 2) Israel was established on the land of Palestine by immigrant -mainly European- Jews who while the land had its own inhabitants and native population 3) Israel is not a state with an army; it is an army with a state. There

It?s about time that we should re-examine the special treatment that the Zionist entity demand for itself, by putting itself above all humanitarian and international law. The Jewish state gets away literally with MURDER, yet no one is allowed to violate the 11th commandment ?Thou shall not criticize Israel?. The fear of the accusation of anti-Semitism -which has been made a very ?special? case of racism that is worse than any other form of racism-, is muffling the truth about the crimes of the Zionist state.

How exactly is shooting a schoolgirl while sitting in her classroom with a sniper rifle from a tower an act of protecting children? And what was the IDF officer doing when he walked up to the girl who was just shot dead from only a hundred yards while walking to her school and emptied his rifle's magazine into her body? What was he protecting her from? Why are your soldiers on foreign land to begin with? Why do Palestinian children, unlike Israeli children, have to go to school in Gaza with tanks roaming their streets? Don't give me the usual BS about defending Israel. Israel is not defending itself from aggressors, it is only trying to deal with a situation that it created when it started occupying the Arabs land.

How many PA/Muslim children everywhere are used as shield, mine removers (as in Iraq) and other forms of canon fodder? IDF does more than any other army to protect children. How many children were protected as well as IDF has protected the Palestinians by US, Britain and other "allies" in every war they fought and continue to fight? What about all the dead children the Bosnians, Turks, and all the African Muslims have slaughtered? These children are casualties of war; a war started and continued by the Arabs for 60 years (or longer). Let them move their children out of harms way instead of placing them into it. Let them really be a "religion of peace" instead of a religion of death, extortion, robbery, rape, mutilation and murder. Let them disavow their "prophet" and his interpreters who have legitimized their barbaric behavior for over 1400 years. I think I'll go and throw up now.

It is odd that you answer in place of Ivo.

Dana & Johnboy, In regard to Johnboy and you wondering why there is no apparent participation by active IDF, past or present her on TB. I can not say that I know. But I will hazard a guess. I have several family members who have served in WWII and Korea. I don?t consider my short time in nam to compare in any respect with what they did. My uncle, who is 82, served from the age of 17 to 21, 38 out of 43 months onboard a ship in the pacific. I may be a few months off, but as I remember. Two other uncles served in Korea. One returned totally screwed up. He became very uncommunicative except with other r veterans. I regret that I didn?t understand and make more of an effort to understand him and get top know him better. But to your question. I think that any IDF personnel, that served would have little patience for people such as Tim R, and others who have not experienced the hardship of frustration of military service. Not to mention the financial, hardship and family separation, etc. People, Tim R is still the best example, come here and bullshit, very militant. They are cyber warriors, IDF veterans would, I believe have little to say to them or us. There is no connection wit cyber warfare and cyber warrior and the stress of the IDF dealing with their situation whether they agree with what they are doing or not. While I might disagree with their mission, I have to respect them for doing their duty. Same for Hamas freedom fighters. My opinion. But, Dana, you are probably correct about finding more participation on the Hebrew version, if for no other reason than most of those will have similar backgrounds and sharing the same risks. Hello Tim R, are you reading this?

?More Pal children have been killed than Israeli ones - This is not for the want of trying ??Liat With America supplying the military means and backing for Israel, they don?t have to try hard or make much effort to achieve this kill ratio. The IDF and IAF don?t even have to aim. Just drop a bomb on Gaza and they find a human target and will be able to paint another Pal symbol on thier fuselage. The Pals have to make more of an effort. Yes, Palestinian freedom fighters have not had the support like the Irgun, Stern gang, Haganah, nor later the financial and political support that Israel has achieved with AIPAC and other Jewish organizations have been able to get for them, regardless of betrayal such as Pollard or the USS Liberty. My sympathies also lie w/ Pal children but unfortunately they are used by leaders who teach them the importance of martyrdom from kindergarten up. Nothing is done to keep them out of harms way. The opposite is true. -Liat All of Israel and the occupied territories is a war zone. If anyone doesn?t understand that, they are idiot. For example, the Jews in Sderot have the option to take their children out of harms way, that is an option available to them. The Palestinians in Gaza or the other occupied territories do not have such options. Now, tell me, with a straight face, that they are the ones who deliberately place their children at risk. Given that they are immobilized, without the freedom of movement that you and other Jews enjoy, their children are at risk regardless

Don`t try make as if it is a ``ridiculous focus on who killed al-Dura`just because it fails your belief system that Jews are Bad and Palistinians are Good. Your feeble self hating attempt to change the subject is very transparent. It must be hard for YOU,believing YOU alone are the only rightous,non bigoted Jew amongst the other 12 million of us...but you can not change this subject. its patently obvious that the french channell in cahoots with Pallywood sacrificed this kid for their own anti semitic prpaganda puposes...and Gideon Levy (the only righteous Jew left in the world) is a prime enabler and apologist for this act of terrorism of Palistinian murdering a Palistinian CHILD. YES IT DOES MATTER....

Don`t try make as if it is a ``ridiculous focus on who killed al-Dura`just because it fails your belief system that Jews are Bad and Palistinians are Good. Your feeble self hating attempt to change the subject is very transparent. It must be hard for YOU,believing YOU alone are the only rightous,non bigoted Jew amongst the other 12 million of us...but you can not change this subject. its patently obvious that the french channell in cahoots with Pallywood sacrificed this kid for their own anti semitic prpaganda puposes...and Gideon Levy (the only righteous Jew left in the world) is a prime enabler and apologist for this act of terrorism of Palistinian murdering a Palistinian CHILD. YES IT DOES MATTER....

All you did was repeat the broken record of how the Palestinians are not without fault themselves. You did exactly the opposite of Lina's point, which was to call Israelis for once to look in the mirror and see what they have been doing. Israel's crimes against humanity in Palestine are undeniable facts. Crimes against humanity are unjustifiable no matter what.

Do you mean no minors were killed in the Gulfwar? Now that's a surprise to me. Furthermore, 'minors' doesn't mean anything. Arabs and especially Hamas consider kids te be of fighting age when they are 13. When a kid of 16 tries to kill me, well then if I have no other solution I kill him first. As for the rest: the computer you are using to rant against Israel has lots of in Israel developed components in it. Instant messaging for example was developed in Israel The easy to install and not even expensive securitysystem that keeps my home free from fire and thieves and so on was developed in Israel (electronics line 3000). My dad takes Teva medicines ( developed in Israel) for his high blood pressure and cholesterol problems. And how about when you need a coloscopy? Thanks to a miniature camera you swallow (developed once again in Israel) it can now be done the easy way. Just some examples of everything Israel is up to.

General Schwartzkopf is not responsible for the deaths of 92 non-Jewish minors last year. You know who is. ...and the rest of your comment became more weird...

Hey grow up! Giving Dakkar Finkestein(The FINK)Plus Ben Ami where a couple of disruntled soldiers cowards began behaving like that hardly proves SQUAT! What is more Dakkar and most people knew about it ages ago,it publized quite openly. So,cut the CRAP WE DO NOT INDULGE IN SUCH STUPID FANTASIS WE KNEW AOUT THOSE FEW SOLDIERS AND IT WAS IN THE NEWS.JOHN(OR IS IT JOHNBOY,NOW GROWN UP AT LAST)???

Read breaking the silence with Israeli soldiers, http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/press_item_e.asp?id=15&page=1 http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/27/1341203

Yes, the Palestinians are faultless, blameless, weak victims. They have no guns, rifles, anti-tank shells, mortars, rockets be it qassams or katyushas, explosives nor the will to murder. They are a true example to all humanity.

IDF troops target terrorists as do the US, British, Australian, Canadian & other troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. In war situations, innocents will always be hurt but every necessary step is taken to avoid this as much as is humanly possible. If the IDF were targeting civillians, it could wipe out the lot of them. This is not the goal.

I salute you on this amazing article. Notice that none of the negative comments here answer the *facts* mentioned in your article and documented by several world renowned human rights organizations. There are apologists for terror on both sides. Yes, terror exists on both sides and it is not exclusive to the Arabs. If a regular armed force like the Iranian Revolutionary Guard can still be declared a terrorist organization, then it is now long due that the world recognize what type of organization the IDF has become. How many children did the Iranian Revolutionary Guard kill this year so far?

Kate your post is absolutely spot on! Couldnt agree with you more. Sorry to hear about your niece - thank God she is ok. I live very close to Karkur, so I am familiar w/ the dangers being so close to Jenin, etc. These Israel-haters will not accept that are 2 sides to this issue - they just love to bash, bash, bash. If such things were happening in their countries the riot police would be straight out and beat everyone to death nearly. When carrying out drug-raids in US, the police are armed to the hilt. Thats ok for US but not for Israel in terrorist raids. Best Regards!

More Pal children have been killed than Israeli ones - This is not for the want of trying - suicide attacks are continuously being thwarted & the security barrier has reduced attacks by 90%. Yes, the Pal children do have school-buses. The terror orgs such as Hamas Islamic Jihad et al use them to collect the children from school and bus them to "hot spots" to act as human shields, lob rocks, collect rocket launchers etc. Even their parents cannot prevent these activities, as they would face serious "punishments" from terror groups. We have disengaged from Gaza and forcefully pulled all settlers out. Hamas should at least stop rocket attacks to enable disengagement from Judea & Samaria. We do not want to be sitting ducks w/ rockets attacking central Israel as well. My sympathies also lie w/ Pal children but unfortunately they are used by leaders who teach them the importance of martyrdom from kindergarten up. Nothing is done to keep them out of harms way. The opposite is true.

It is really hard to reflect on yourself in the mirror and see an ugly beast! That is what is going on here! Does not matter if you break all the mirrors, the BEAST is still there! Get smarter people and contemplate the crimes of Israel! Such a pity!

Though i did before too - but must have been late. I do not question your family connections in israel - or the fact that they have long term ancestry in palestine (as it was then called). Neither do I hold it against you that you live outside the country, as I assume you have perfectly good reasons for doing so, as do others who post here. That would make you though one of the Jewish Diaspora, which I refered to as the most ubiquitous group of posters on these TB's, whatever their origins or future plans (Haaretz English aims at them). As such, you were not likely to have served in the IDF, or had occasion to interact much with palestinians on any level. That's all I implied. No judgement passed. As for myself, if you cared to read through my posts with attention (assuming you can do so without getting too mad on the way), a certain Jewish and/or Israeli connection would surely suggest itself. Ask Cipora - she may have figured a few things out. Or S....

Though i did before too - but must have been late. I do not question your family connections in israel - or the fact that they have long term ancestry in palestine (as it was then called). Neither do I hold it against you that you live outside the country, as I assume you have perfectly good reasons for doing so, as do others who post here. That would make you though one of the Jewish Diaspora, which I refered to as the most ubiquitous group of posters on these TB's, whatever their origins or future plans (Haaretz English aims at them). As such, you were not likely to have served in the IDF, or had occasion to interact much with palestinians on any level. That's all I implied. No judgement passed. As for myself, if you cared to read through my posts with attention (assuming you can do so without getting too mad on the way), a certain Jewish and/or Israeli connection would surely suggest itself. Ask Cipora - she may have figured a few things out. Or S....

"This does not sound like Ivo from Prague, and I am convinced that it is a fake." (CJK) Could have fooled me. If fake, he is doing a marvelous job of adopting the "real ivo" style to a T. Ivo posted on other boards too, and certainly seemed to be in character. Maybe he's just not so easy to pin down to any one dogma? BTW, from my past conversations with ivo, I recall he was never a great fan of current US administration. When it comes to israel - he seemed to straddle the middle quite well. I didn't always agree with his positions and vice versa, but he always expresses himself with humanity and considered thought. This Ivo poster, who you are convinced is a fake does the same, well in character. Face it Cipora - the entire world has turned against the Bush white house, and that include many of those who're nominally in lock step with you on other issues. The world, west and east, sees Iraq for the shameful debacle it is, and is revulsed at the prospect of more mayhem, bombing Iran.

When they asked general Schwartzkopf what to do with enemies who preferred death above surrender, he answered: 'So just give them what they want.' It seems that Palestinians prefer dying over a reasonable- for- everybody- solution. What they want above all (I am talking here about their leaders) is getting theirs hands on Israel. All this Israeli patents and inventions. They want them and they can only get them if Israel is stupid enough to let in all the descendants of the refugees of '48.

The real BS is coming from the Israeli Army whose soldiers are killing Palestinians left and right and are literally getting away with murder as the Army and Military Court fails to act appropriately and hold them accountable for their war crimes. Now that's criminal. John

Each death is a debt. The debts are mounting. Read the names of the dead, one by one. They are/were real people. (Wait for it. It's a lengthy list.) http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=1

You twist it to your version onpurpose. Matters not missy.You just accused me calling Dutch Dirk,Jew instead as you just put out too Cipora whoknows well Iwould never call a Jew dirty as it would infringe on my Jewishness.You sneaky devil! Just go and spew venom to your hearts content.You lakshmi and the rest of the "dirty dozens" can go and jump in the lake and cool off,needing cleaning your dirty souls ifyouposess any at all. I caled Dutch Dirk a dirty ARABserves the appelation for his horrid attacks he writes with such hate incomparable to the extreme.You seemm to think youare |immune to critisimz. havenews for you I do not read your posts at all because once is one too many....Don't flatter yourself...

"ANY" AND SO CA-CALLED SILVIENNE BOTH OF YOU CAN GO AND CONTINUE YOUR PIFFLE ELSEWHERE.WE NEED NOT YOUR VENOMOUS VERBAL DIARRHOEA HERE THANK YOU. IF YOU SILVIENNE WANT TO ATTEND THE JEWISH SITE COUNT YOURSELF LUCKY.JUST TRY IT ON A MUSLIM ONE AND SEE IF HOW YOU'D FARE. I WOULD DEARLY LIKE YOU TO TRY AND SEE HOW LONG YOU'D LAST.ONE MINUTE?HARDLY... FURTHERMORE,I CALLED DUTCH DIRT A DIRTY ARAB JUDGING BY HIS SLIMY RESPONSES HE PUTS OUT IS ENOUGH TO JUDGE WHERE HE IS COMING FROM.YOU TOO MISSY MUST BE ONE OF THEM FOR SURE!HE IS JUST WHAT I CALLED HIM AND STAND BY IT.YOU DON'T LIKE IT,TOUGH! "ANY" YOU TOO ARE JUST A PISHER BEAR IN MIND,I MEAN EVERY WORD I SAY.....

Dakkar I wonder why we come here,but the fact is inspite of the revulsion of having to do so,it is simply to counteract people who constantly come here just to spew venom. Against Israel IDF IAF.Much as I regret having to attend this site,it behoves some of us to do our bit.To prove that not all is sweetness and light the country is in danger from the surrounding Arab hords who want nothing bar the annihilation of Israel.And I'm damned if I will let them get away with the slander heaped on the Jews/Israel.They come from all sides pontificating on what we should or not.Living on the other side of the globe.How dare they give us lessons!Unbelievable nerve.. Let us invite them to live here,they wouldn't last a day and summarily run for their life. My very young niece was nearly murdered by a young terrorist in Karkur just outside the house,saved by a neighbour who ran out in time to chase away the would be perpetrator with his gun.She was saved by the grace of GOD!

The problem in interacting with foreign do-gooders is that they have no perception of the reality here. Have you feared having your children use public or school buses, go to school, go anywhere in case they might be caught up in a suicide bombing?-Liat Liat, The reality is that you expropriate the land from the Palestinians. Your children, that you fear for, using public school buses are much more secure and well cared for then the Palestinians, whose schools you have bombed. More Palestinian children are KILLED by Israeli?s than have Israeli children killed by Palestinians. I?ll bet that the Palestinian children don?t have a school bus. Your ridiculous attempt to be the victim is disgusting. Your display of sympathy for children, is onmly fro Jewish children.. As an American, who finds your racist behavior and pretensions to victimhood totally phony and disgusting. If you want their land, then you must be prepared to pay the price and stop trying to have other people fight your fight. More so when it is obviously so immoral.

Thank you for your compliments in your post concerning me. . Did you really think it was acceptable to call Dutch Dirk a "dirty Arab", which you did in your post? That alone, dear Kath, says everything anyone needs to know regarding how you think. You won't see me namecalling, because it's juvenile. Worst luck, we have to see your name far too much in these threads. But, bad luck for you, you are also going to see mine, as well as Hannah, Clickfool, Lakshmi, Indrajaja, Dutch, Dutch Dirk, Johnboy, Maureen Ann, Kim, Natalie, etc. Maureen Ann calls your state rascist and adopted. "Adopted"? Hmm. Well, here's hoping the future brings you all you desire (although it won't be the vanishing of the Palestinians or their supporters). Very best wishes as always, Ta-ta

From you, I'll take that as a compliment. Tell me: do you approve of "Kath" calling Dutch Dirk a "dirty Jew" in her post? If you do, that is hypocritical-ness at its extreme, because if anyone here called a Jew "dirty", the screaming would be heard from Connecticut to Tel Aviv. Also, do you deny that you use Hannah's name, as she constantly asserts? Otherwise, do have a nice day!

It hardly matters that there are a couple dozen Jews of character in Isreal like Gideon Levy. Look at the comments posted here...the racism, the disgusting stupidity, the arrogance! Israelis are garbage out of a dump. No Jew of character can have the slightest sympathy for them. Pack up your dredls, prayer shawls, hebrew comic books and the rest of your crap and get the hell off other people's land, you bunch of talentless, worthless assholes! Decent Jews around the world HATE Israel and everything it stands for. Go to HELL Israel!!

I agree with your post. The lack of murdered Israelis recently is not for lack of trying. Its also thanks to the Palestinian collaborators who provide info and tip-offs to the Israeli authorities. Mind you, to these ppl, an 18 yr old Pal with an M16 is considered a child, while an 18 yr old Israeli with an M16 is considered just an effing soldier.

D: "and presume what your motives may be, other than having an interest in the subject" My motives are more than an interest. Theyre to give insight to ppl who rely on CNN, or far-left rags like this, to attempt to disperse the propaganda bubble that Pals have become so expert at. They treat their children as sub-human encouraging them to "fight the fight" and sacrifice themselves for "the cause". Israel did NOT urge attack on Iraq and had nothing to fear from Iraq. Bush Jr wanted to finish the job Bush Sr started. It was a thorn in his side & unfinished business. So dont try to pin it on us Israelis. The fact that WMDs werent found is bc Iraq had 6 months to deliver them over the border to Syria for safekeeping. Posts here arent "interactions" on shared interests, they are often from ppl who have absolutely no idea of subject matter whose only intention is to spew poison, hatred and misinformation.

And I hate having to repeat it here for your benefit.If you don't read responses carefully that is your problem. I have put it out on quite a few occasions and you probably ignored it(too busy trying to get your posts out no doubt). TOUGH!It is annoying and somewhat against my better judgement,but for the last time here goes.And no more insinuations from you thank you. .My roots were/are,where the rest of my numerous families who are all "SABRAS",and have been in Israel even before its inception.Point of fact are the very descendents of the "PIONEERS" who came to the land in the early 1900...THAT IS MY BACKGROUND.NO MORE INFO FROM ME TO YOU! MORE TO THE POINT,WHAT'S YOURS? P/S As for Cipora it is her business and she lives where ever.I wouldn't dream of asking her,unlike yourself.

Hello Kath, I fully agree with yr post to Liat about Dana. Imagine their indignant reactions if Dana's Sunnywale, Clickfool's Surrey or Johnboy's Sydney had 7 suicide bombings as my small town has had. Their kind (big-mouths) would be the first to demand adequate and immediate protection from their governments. Do you think they'd care if other ppl suffered in securing this protection? They'd say "Its our bloody right! What do we pay taxes for?" Our govt and IDF are in a constant dilemna on how to deal with the terrorists without hurting the civillians. If this were not the case it would just blast the whole of Gaza, as the Lebanese recently done in the refugee camp. We never heard how many civillian casualties. No BBC, CNN broadcasting and no UN making resolutions or condemnations. This paper is a rag anyway, I dont know why I bother with it. God only knows why foreigners spend hours every day, posting and arguing as if their lives depended on it! Pretty shallow...

DECEMBER * Bomber kills IDF officer, two Palestinians * Father of five killed in Hebron Hills ambush * Soldier killed at capital checkpoint * Suicide attack kills five outside mall; Islamic Jihad claims responsibility UPDATE: Guard dies preventing greater carnage NOVEMBER * IDF soldier killed during arrest of Islamic Jihad member OCTOBER * 5 dead in Hadera market suicide bombing UPDATE: Hadera death toll rises to 6 * 3 dead, 5 wounded in shooting attacks SEPTEMBER * Hamas kidnaps, brutally murders J’lem candy maker JULY * 2 killed, 3 wounded in attack near Kfar Darom * Dana Galkovitch, 22, killed by Kassam * Three killed in suicide bombing at Netanya mall UPDATE: Netanya bombing death toll rises to 5 JUNE * Soldier killed, 3 wounded in clashes with Hizbullah * Teenager dies of wounds sustained in Beit Hagai attack * Teen slain, 4 wounded in terror attack * Islamic Jihad gunmen kill Israeli drivin

SEPTEMBER * Paratrooper killed in Nablus — two weeks before his release MAY * 10th Israeli killed in rocket attack * Sderot woman killed as Kassam smashes into her car JANUARY * Three killed in first Eilat suicide attack as Gaza terrorist infiltrates through Egypt NOVEMBER * 'I saw him lying on the ground with blood on his face' * IDF soldier killed in fierce Beit Hanun firefight SEPTEMBER * IDF tracker killed during operation in central Gaza Strip AUGUST * Soldier killed in minefield accident in southern Lebanon * Soldier killed in Jordan Valley attack * Lebanon 2: A heavy toll - 43 civilians and 116 IDF soldiers * Officer killed in Baalbek raid * Nine soldiers were killed in final day of fighting * 25 soldiers killed in Lebanon UPDATE: Son of anti-war author Grossman dies in battle * Reservist slain as fierce fighting rages on in Lebanon * Katyusha kills mother and son * 15 soldiers killed in the bloodiest day of fighting * Two Paratroopers killed in gun battle in Bint Jbail UPDATE: Fallen comrades: the faces behind the names * Three soldiers killed in southern Lebanon * 3 IDF soldiers killed, five wounded in heavy fighting near Bint Jbail * 12 reserve soldiers killed by rockets UPDATE: The 12 faces behind the names * Three killed in Haifa rocket attack UPDATE: Jews, Arabs mourn their dead together in Haifa * 24 Israelis killed in three days UPDATE: 8 civilians, 4 soldiers killed in bloodiest day of war UPDATE: Man, daughter buried side by side in Acre UPDATE: Sgt. Or Shahar, 20, killed in Lebanon UPDATE: Two reserve soldiers were killed * IDF soldier killed in battle with Hizbullah in Aita a-Sha’ab * Rocket kills American oleh at Kibbutz Sa’ar * 3 soldiers killed in Hizbullah ambush JULY * Aksa Brigades claim murder of Israeli * 8 soldiers killed in Battle of Bint Jbail. Paratrooper slain in separate firefight * 2 soldiers, 2 pilots killed * Two killed, more than 14 hurt, as Katyushas hit Haifa * Israel laid four soldiers and one pilot to rest UPDATE: Fifth Egoz soldier killed in Lebanon came to Israel alone from Ukraine UPDATE: A father’s eulogy for a slain soldier * Two soldiers killed in clash with Hizbullah inside Lebanon UPDATE: The little prince of Platoon Aleph * 2 children killed as rockets hit Nazareth * Rocket kills father running for shelter * Soldier killed while tracking down bomber in Nablus * Family of killed railway worker believes government is doing the right thing * Grandmother and grandson killed: Martial law in North as rockets hit Tiberias * Sailor killed, three missing as Hizbullah, helped by Iran, fires missile at Israeli ship UPDATE: Sailors’ bodies identified after warship strike * 2 Israelis killed in barrage on North * 8 killed on the Northern border. Families reel from news of deaths UPDATE: The stories behind the faces * Soldier killed. 3 abandoned settlements retaken JUNE * Asheri shot in head Sunday immediately after abduction * IDF poised for Gaza offensive after 2 soldiers killed APRIL * A final kiss good-bye UPDATE: American teen wounded in Tel Aviv bombing dies of wounds MARCH * Kedumim deaths may have prevented greater tragedy * Father of two killed in Samaria shooting FEBRUARY * Palestinian kills mother of three in Petah Tikva

Think of all the sorrow the Israelis have brought to Palestinian people. They have taken their country and now occupy over 80% of Palestine instead of the 55% their UN share and have made them prisoners in their own land and have taken their lives and their childrens. Israelis can't expect to have a future in the Middle East anymore = until they get off their neighbor's land (territories) and recognize their right to exist. Otherwise, there 's no future for them in the ME. Dutch

This does not sound like Ivo from Prague, and I am convinced that it is a fake.

Discredited,EXTREME LEFT "writers" do not answer the question I asked about palis responsebility for death of children including jewish ones. So please, be a little more direct.

I wonder if your lists includes the dozens of Palestinian children and teens killed by their own people in the fighting between Hamas and Fathah this year? Or does your concern, sorrow, and compassion for these children suddenly seem to disappear like Mr.Levy's does, when Israel is not involved somehow? You keep mentioning stastics when posting about the deaths of these children, would it make you feel better somehow if hundreds more Israeli children had been killed to even the keel? Sadly,that's the impression I get sometimes when I read posts by people with similiar opinions like you. I can assure you had it not been for the security fence to stop the suicide bombers and Israeli intelligence which constantly thwarts terror attacks there would have been many more dead Israeli children and the stastics you mention would look much different.

about me. Would that you share a few more details such as: "dana who is not Jewish, has no affiliation to Israel..." Wonder how you know, exactly. I choose not to share personal background details here much as you and others don't. For all I know, you - Kath - may be one of those cosmopolitan lebanese-canadians with a liason office in every ME country. "What exactly are you trying to find out John?" read his questions and you shall know. As a long term poster, he has every reason to wonder about the scarcity of Israeli posters who were/are in the IDF. Whatever their take is on the situation, it would be pertinent on a topic such as the one here. Now you Kath did not serve in the IDF or live in Israel either, yet you presume to know much. Same with Cipora. Since you often presume to know about what palestians are or want, I have every right to ask you to apply your own advice: "do your search where the nub of the matter is,and not from a person who has an ulterior motive" (Kath)

"You get your kicks out of trying to get the one-up on somebody else." (liat) A bit presumptive on your part, wouldn't you say? seeing that you know little of my personal motives for taking the time to respond to you, for exa. I will not make the same mistake and presume what your motives may be, other than having an interest in the subject. As I said in #363, haaretz is a special gathering place, unique in its appeal to many from around the globe. As an Israeli, you could take pride in this. Instead, you choose to denigrade with, e.g., "foreign do gooders", which to you, I assume mean also the many diaspora Jews - and palestinians - who post here. Whatever side they are, why not assume they just wish to interact with others sharing similar concerns? Like it or not, the I/P issue has become one of the most globalized one on earth, claiming numerous direct/indirect participants. With israel as one who urged attack on Iraqis and now Iranians, all US citizens are now stakeholders too.

Hey John How dare you denigrate Joseph E,or paul hariss. The fact you are asking dana who is not Jewish, has no affiliation to Israel,wrong person to put questions to,or garner truth from. Some like you tend to grab at straws no matter where they come from.Pitiful,and idiotic in the extreme. What exactly are you trying to find out John? If you are so curious,just jump on an airplane and do your search where the nub of the matter is,and not from a person who has an ulterior motive and who puts out nothing but garbage,instead of the truth on the ground..

Reader from Edmonton who reads the wrong site. I went there once by mistake thinking it was an Israeli site.That was over a yea ago,and I thought...Gosh,that doesn't sound correct.An then I realized where I was. Mr.Levy does not need my version he knows exactly where he is coming from as are some of the rest of his colegues at Haaretz. I'll name them for you if you wish,and here they are:Gideon Samet,Gideon Levy, Ze'ev Sternhell,Danny Rubenstein,Moshe Reinfeld,Akiva Eldar,Joseph Algazy, alongside of those Noam Chomsky,Hanan Ashrawi and many more.Whether the ones I mentioned are also members of B'Tselem I'll have to go to my documents to refresh my memory.All the ones on the list are Arabs full stop.No obfuscation and no deviation from the truth thank you..

Liat The notice she craves.Especially on the on "one upmenship" which is her forte(she may thnk but some of us are not impressed in the slightest.What I would like to do,is put dana in Sderot for starters,and let her taste the daily lives of families and children who are traumatized by the daily attacks.She has not experienced of having to think twice before getting on a bus,or eating at a restaurant watching and fearing.She is just a bloody show off,and I stopped reading her piffle for sometime now...

You call this board "addictive" and for you its an intellectual game, pass-time or hobby. You get your kicks out of trying to get the one-up on somebody else. Most Israelis really dont care about Haaretz newspaper, which is not particularly popular. Moreover, as you stated, most Israelis prefer reading in Hebrew. The problem in interacting with foreign do-gooders is that they have no perception of the reality here. Have you feared having your children use public or school buses, go to school, go anywhere in case they might be caught up in a suicide bombing? For us the security fence has given us some quiet in the last couple of years. This was erected reluctantly, but there was no other choice. Its easy to judge and criticize from afar, but less so when you're stuck in the middle of it. I'm sure anyone near the New York attacks or bombings in London, Madrid, Bali, Argentina, and everywhere else have different perceptions than those fortunate enough not to have been.

- i appreciate it, for sure. i can 't write too much now, unfortunately, just want to say, you know, i didn't mean to hurt anybody & j.boy seems like a solid guy, who isn't stirred too easily. maybe i just felt the need to shout a bit, 'cause you know, there is an inconsistency there somwhere & it's not that insignificant. why do people like him, f. ex., feel they should find israeli soldiers to be supportive of their cause on an israeli blog, while they're not even able to (oh, i don't know - i hope i'm wrong, that they do it) take their own soldiers to task for exactly the same kind of reasons? because it's the same good old (but sad) reason for all of this, that it's always so much easier to fight on a foreign turf, & not the one that is your own? he isn't waiting for the next israeli parlament. elections, right? the funny thing is, that he too expects the israeli guys to do the decisive move. i see you around, -

Again, 100% correct. If we really were out to get the kids, as the other side strives to do, there wouldn't be any left. Levy and the rest of you - surely you don't believe otherwise.

100% CORRECT -Levy's got the guitars out again. You would think! that we're all idiots and believe the rubbish being written by this dramatist. Wake up Gideon. We didn't start this - We don't deliberately target the kids: Propaganda....You can't be that transfixed with this misperception. Gideon, You're full of it...

Present your version if you don't like this one from B`Tselem, Israel. Maybe Levy will quote you next time. Until you do, perhaps you may care to wander through the B`Tselem website at: http://www.btselem.org/english/About_BTselem/Index.asp The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories was established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members. It endeavors to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel.

Well, if one may believe some other messages on this board, it seems that Levy went even farther than B'tselem. But my point is that no one can trust people who make up stories to prove their point. Which is what his friend Enderlin did. En that is what he is defending, darn it. this makes me think of a lady called Janet Cook. Ze won a Pullitzer with a long article about kids in bad neighbourhoods taking drugs or something like that. However when it was discovered that she had made up a big part of her story she lost the Pullitzer and her job. Journalists should be held to at least some standards. And one of the most important is :NO LYING.

by young Palestinians.....! When speaking of our dear 'Little Angels and Martyrs' those poor little Arab children who were victims of their very own 'Master', should we not remember another Victim of that same 'Master', this time a young Jewish boy called Toby Mandell..... 14 year old Toby went for a hike one morning out in the Israeli countryside which he loved. But Toby did not come back home that afternoon ... nor in the evening.... nor that night.. Toby was missing. There was a Search of course.... a frenzied search. But when Toby was finally found, he was almost unrecognisable because the young Mandell boy had been mashed to a PULP ! Rocks and Boulders were used to do the job not for away from home and no-one would have guessed it. Poor little Toby. Consequently, the young Mohammed al-Dura lives on, but Tony Mandall was barbarically murdered. This proves that there are always TWO SIDES TO A COIN

In the Atlantic Monthly article: "Like the man who had first introduced me (James Fallows) to the story, Prof Gabriel Weimann of Haifa University , I became fully convinced by the negative case (IDF was innocent)." Did he talk to Mohammed al_Dura's father? Did he visit the burial site? Did he do forensics on the bullet(s)? Then how can he be fully convinced?

Reader it wuld improve you mind by looking at the list of B'Tselem.It is run by an Arab/Muslim organization.So much of the spurious credibility given by Gideon(if he did)or your easily deluded person.Sorry but the Org'is a pro-Pal and nothing else.They twist the issues and distort the truth.And people like you fall for it.I pity you all...

Joseph The first one you wrote mentioning me and Daniel Freedman I did not understand.Sent one before I had left(too busy).But,the subsequent long responses(today Monday)just read and they are brilliant. I can now say thank you for the way you put all the relevant points out!

Fedup Those Christians who owned a book store,have been pursued and harrased for a very long time and at the end just murdered them to fulfil their vengeful desire not to allow infidels among themselves. Glad you mentioned it.Additionally the firings of katyushas in southern Israel,and not an occasional one,but going on for a year if not longer...I give up to the likes of Gideon,and his collegues who are just as bad as he...

TOMY Like many of his colegues he is on the cog of the wheel. Remeber also Amira Hass,Gideon Samet,Akiva Eldar,Baruch Kimmerling,Ze'ev Strenhell,Joseph Algazi,Danny Rubenstein,Moshe Reinfeld,and many appear alongside of those of Noam Chomsky.Are just some of the favorites.Shameful to even have to mention..

Shalom Freedman What is more disgusting to me and the world is how Israel's pioneer settlers are depriving the Palestinians of the lawful and just rights and how they are helping to kill Palestinians everyday- especially the children and imprisoning their fathers and brothers and uncles with their unlawful presence in the territories. Dutch P.S. People have a right to use anyname they wish.This has always been a tradition in writing and there's nothing co- wardly about this. Mark Twain and many others did it and I don't believe for one minute you could call him a coward. But as it happens my name is Dutch whether you wish to accept it or not and how dare Tulip ask me to change it.

Levy is using stats from the human rights group B`Tselem, Israel. See: http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties.asp

D: "hope you find some time to comment on my "theory" of TB demographics...wonder what you think..." Oh, I think it sounds very reasonable, but since I can't read Hebrew I can not put it to the test. But not ONE reservist is willing to share his reminiscing on a tour of duty in these english talkback threads? Not one? Coz I can't recall one single poster claiming to have participated in this, for good or for ill. So just how many IDF brigades *are* patrolling inside the West Bank, or surrounding the Gaza Strip, and do all the soldiers sign non-disclosure papers before they don the uniform? They can't all be as english-illiterate as, say, Joseph E. or (*shudder*) paul harris.

Are you in fact questioning the 'Cult of the Holy Bible' ... ? the cult from which Christianity was born and 1,400 years AFTER, the cult of 'Islam' as well, which also ascribes some of its laws to both Judaism and Christianity and was in fact the result of DREAMS which the Prophet Mohammad remembered each morning when he awoke......

Clickfool, Thank you , I couldn't cry I was still gasping for the breath I took with her and how she got it so fast and carried it thru to perfection with the greatest of ease & sweetness I will never know. Dutch P.S. The recording brought back very sad memories of Pavorotti O Sole Mia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLiwQRAewNU P.P.S. What is Victor (Paul Harris ) going on about in #350 Yellow steak and the warning....? What is he talking about.? Is he drunk or something --what do you think? He is weird.

P: "Israel is going after the right people BUT wait for it BUT, Israel shouldn`;t be going after them in the first place." *sigh* It isn't that Israel shouldn't maintain law and order, but that Israel shouldn't SHOOT TO KILL to do it. The IDF can use live ammo for crowd control. It can use air-launched missiles against suspected militants. It can drop a 1,000 kg bomb on an apartment block to assassinate one man. It can fire artillery when it sees people simply milling around near some empty rocket launchers. It can kill anyone approaching the security wall. P: "Okay, Israel fires live ammo when people throw rocks according to videogameboy" Is that a denial I hear? P: "I say 7/10 people are under ther age of 18" And how MANY are killed? P: "how come less than 2/10 casualties are children" Not the RATIO, but HOW MANY? P: "especially when the rock throwers are exclusively children" Evidence please?

When you are surrounded by 100s or more throwing rocks at you, you better start shooting or you are dead. They are not children,they are ful grown terrorists WHO WANTS TO KILL.Of course they are sent by other terrorists.And anyway, what children are doing at terrorists training grounds?? Next to rocket lounchers?? Those are all statistics.So Gedeon, take out your blind head from the sand and try to look at the reality.Palis are not realy anjels.

anonymous It isn't only Gideon Levy,but also Amira Hass, Danny Rubinstein,Akiva Eldar and more I cannot at present remember. Theirs is selective sympathy,forgetting the constant suffering of our Jewish citizenry..

Cipora She is the most hypocritical and very biased in the most dangerous way.Which begs the question how is she helping her partiality to the Palestinian? Her profound hate against Israel and the IDF shows how ignorant she is.She is one of the most extremist,on a par with crazy Hannah

You don't happen to know a Mr. David Teich, by any chance?

However, when several French journalists prevailed on France 2 to let them view the unreleased 27 minutes, they found no "agony of the child" - no excruciating scenes of a suffering al-Dura. Enderlin lied, and his lie heightened the sense of a brutal act committed by Israel. Third, numerous analysts have noted that in footage taken of the crowds at Netzarim there are clearly instances of Palestinians staging events. The French journalists who viewed the France 2 footage saw this as well, including repeated instances of Palestinians faking injuries followed by the immediate arrival of ambulances to carry away the pseudo-wounded. While no video evidence proved the al-Dura incident was staged, the prevalence of such activity at the time is relevant to any inquiry. Enderlin has replied to criticism by retorting the case may never be resolved, but for him the "image [as he conveyed it] corresponded to the reality of the situation." Enderlin states that in his view Israel was using excessive force against Palestinians, and clearly in his mind a journalist can distort and embellish the facts to fit his political opinions. Four and a half years later, France 2 has yet to issue any statement correcting its reprehensible and unethical al-Dura story, or to take action against Enderlin, Abu-Rahma or others with a hand in the matter. This should concern everyone who appreciates the enormous damage caused by reckless and ideologically-driven journalism

Second, the footage does not contain visual evidence that al-Dura died. Though he collapses, the tape ends abruptly with the boy inert; a further frame, omitted by Enderlin from the broadcast, shows al-Dura raising his head and arm. But this is the last image. To explain the odd, truncated footage, Enderlin repeatedly claimed he omitted the "agony of the child" - his dying - because it was unbearable to witness....

This morning I found a recording of Birgit Nilsson singing Wagner's "Liebestod" on You Tube. If you need to be reminded that life is wonderful, that mankind is extraordinary and that music is a gift from a loving God, check this out: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_mOA8pZ_I4M If the hairs on your arms and on the back of your neck don't rise, you're dead. It's difficult not to cry at the absolute climax of this piece, and just listen for the very last angelic note Nilsson sings. Check the cellist behind the conductor when the lady is receiving her applause.

In Arab nations, al-Dura was quickly mythologized as an emblem of alleged Israeli cruelty, with streets, parks, stamps and newborns named after him. Videos recreated the event, some with calls for young people to seek "martyrdom" and paradise with al-Dura. Not everything is known about the chaotic events at Netzarim and the circumstances of the al-Dura case, but certain things are. First, the footage contains no evidence at all that Israeli soldiers shot al-Dura. Neither in the 55 seconds broadcast around the globe nor in the 27 remaining minutes filmed by Abu-Rahma are there any soldiers in view. It is not logistically possible that the Israeli soldiers present that day, barricaded inside a building across the intersection, could have shot the boy and his father, huddled behind a concrete barrel blocking the line of fire. As James Fallows wrote in an investigation of the case for The Atlantic Monthly (June 2003): "Whatever happened to him, he was not shot by the Israeli soldiers..

That would make a full menagerie won't it? The Monkey, the Poodle and the Rodent go to "war" And humpty dumpty has a great fall... One could only wonder why.... (didn't realize he was called that. At least it's something not cute, like a koala....). Do you think we can have some humans back next time as leaders? PS hope you find some time to comment on my "theory" of TB demographics...wonder what you think...

LOL. But even if you are right (a fact I dispute) it still DOES NOT give you the right to invent stories just to make your point. That is what happened. Must I remind you that the killers of Daniel Pearl used the al-dura story as one of their reasons. Furthermore, I do have a problem with your 'brutal' occupation. What was so brutal about it? Were the occupied territories taxed beyond their means? How many people were killed in these territories before some crazies decided to start the first intifada? Did you ever read or learn anything about REALLY brutal occupations?

Faced with numbers that he can't massage, videogameboy has a revelation or sort of. Israel no longer fires randomly as in collective punishment according to videogameboy....Israel is going after the right people BUT wait for it BUT, Israel shouldn';t be going after them in the first place. Okay, Israel fires live ammo when people throw rocks according to videogameboy, and I say 7/10 people are under ther age of 18...how come less than 2/10 casualties are children, especially when the rock throwers are exclusively children. whew, videogameboy and nada make quite the pair, fantasy and folly exhorting their fellow arabist apologists with empty filler and no substance.

"I don`t think it`s about language so much as the audience one chooses to address. This surely applies to Arabs too, many of whom are, in my experience, also multilingual." (sh) That's possible of course, though even if you are right, I'd expect more of a spill-over of at least a few of those linguistically capable Israelis to the pages of this paper. Surely some will be interested in seeing what the rest of the world has to say (even if a skewed sample here, as said before). Or, a few may just want to exercise their English, or for kicks, engage some of our fun right/left wingers here (OK - they got them in Hebrew too, but the selection here is so much more colorful). Well, I can see that this may not be everyone's idea of fun. Still, I do think that you may overestimate a bit the linguistic ability/interest of the general Israeli/pal population. Often may be too rudimentary for politics. Shall we do a survey? Let's ask Haaretz for a grant (too danderous to do for free...)

First let me thank you for the compliment. Don't get those too often around here (well, IT is a battle zone, what can we expect). I now awe you one - may even consider doing a turn (only once!) as an apoplogist if you ask nicely (just not for this column, OK? too raw for me to even say anything. Others - you included - said what needed to be said). Re your question to Johnboy - it's a fair one, as it'd be to the British gang. For all we know - JB may be active in Australian papers as well - at least I hope he is. Based on posts that I saw, I'd have no doubt he ain't a big supporter of Howard's policies - he who's in lock step with our own criminally insane - & incompetent "leadership" - an embarassment to its own party. You'll be glad to know that for my part I do much here as well - hopefully to some effect. But Haaretz is a very special gathering place, you must admit. Nothing like it anywhere else. Addictive in the extreme. PS will try - again - my post to you on other board too

I: "why must they - & what`s the strange reason? - for sosme reason be participating in every western WARCRIME VENTURE (according to your own book, baby) that have been comitted for the last, shall we say 2 decades, 3, 4, 6, you tell me johnboy, why is j. howard & co doing this right now f.ex., both in afgan. & iraq, & have you at least thought of asking them a few things? " Oh, I am not planning to ask John Howard A THING, ivo. I plan to send him an emphatic message when the election rolls around in November. As, indeed, are the overwhelming majority of Australians according to all the opinion polls. Do not underestimate how how unpopular our little adventure in Iraq is over here, ivo, and just how duplicitous The Rodent was when he put forward the case for our involvement in an illegal and immoral war.

D'oh, wow, why didnt I realise that before. The deaths of 850 children is an elaborate hoax perpetrated by the left. Never mind the fact that their deaths have been documented and verified by their families, a range of highly respected human rights organisations in both Israel, the US and internationally. Never mind there are grieving families. As usual, you like all Zionists who want to deny reality, try to blame the victim by resorting to racism. As my previous posts on the names of Palestinian children killed reveal, these children on the whole are killed in their homes, in schools, while playing or working to help their families. The fault lies with Israel and their brutal occupation, not the families of the innocents killed.

1 June 2007 - Hamza Amin Fawzan al-Masri, 17, of Beit Lahya, Gaza, physically disabled, died of chest and abdominal wounds sustained May 20 from IDF shelling while in his home. Zaher Jaber Muhammad al-Majdalawi, 14, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire while flying kites with his friends near the beach in Beit Lahya. Ahmad Sabri Abu-Zbaida, 14, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire while flying kites with his friends near the beach in Beit Lahya. 8 June, 2007 -Hijazi Muhammad Abdul-Aziz Rzaiqat, 17, of Taffouh, near Hebron, killed by IDF gunfire to his chest, abdomen, left shoulder and right thigh while hunting birds with a gun. 14 June, 2007 Salah Zaki Mansour, 10, of al-Shouka, near Rafah, Gaza, killed, with his brother, by an unexploded IDF ordinance while attempting to salvage it for scrap metal. Muhammad Zaki Mansour, 12, of al-Shouka, near Rafah, Gaza, killed, with his brother, by an unexploded IDF ordinance while attempting to salvage it for scrap metal. Muhammad Atallah al-Hessi, 14, of al-Shouka, near Rafah, Gaza, killed, with his brother, by an unexploded IDF ordinance while attempting to salvage it for scrap metal. Bilal Atallah al-Hessi, 15,, of al-Shouka, near Rafah, Gaza, killed, with his brother, by an unexploded IDF ordinance while attempting to salvage it for scrap metal. Adel Khalil Barbakh, 11, of al-Shouka, near Rafah, Gaza, killed by an unexploded IDF ordinance while attempting to salvage it for scrap metal. 27 June, 2007 Saifadeen Said Khalil Jundiyah, 9, of al-Shejaya, near Gaza City, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling from a tank while sitting in front of his home during an incursion.

17 May, 2007 - Muhammad Suleiman Selmi al-Lulahi, 14, of Rafah, Gaza, killed, with his older brother, by an IDF missile at a garbage treatment plant near the Sofa checkpoint. 19 May, 2007 -Muhammad Abdul-Fattah Ahmad Abu-Moti, 16, of Beit Lahya, Gaza, killed, with his older brother, by an IDF missile while shepherding livestock in the al-Zaytoun area southwest of Beit Hanoun. Maher Hamad Abed Abu-Hashish, 15, of of al-Qaraya al-Badwiya Maslakh, near Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while shepherding livestock in the al-Zaytoun area southwest of Beit Hanoun. Hatem Mahdi Muhammad Hamid, 17, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while walking in the refugee camp cemetery. 20 May, 2007 - Muhammad Khaled Ismael al-Haya, 16, of Gaza City, Gaza, killed, with his brother, cousin, and 4 older family members, by an IDF missile during a targeted assasination attempt. Ismael Khaled Ismael al-Haya, 17, of Gaza City, Gaza, killed, with his brother, cousin, and 4 older family members, by an IDF missile during a targeted assasination attempt. Jihad Abdul-Majid Ismael al-Haya, 17, of Gaza City, Gaza, killed, with his father, cousins, and 3 older family members, by an IDF missile while in their home during a targeted assasination attempt. Hamada Mahmoud Jamal al-Fiyumi, 15, of Gaza City, Gaza, killed by IDF helicopter fire while on working as a cement factory guard

Remember these children documents the deaths of Israeli & Palestinian children killed in the conflict. This year there's been no Israeli deaths but 33 Palestinian children killed in 6mths. April 2007 5 April, 2007 -Tahrir Hisham Abul-Jedian, 17, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, died of head wounds sustained Oct. 4, 2004 from IDF gunfire while inside her home during an incursion. 21 April, 2007 - Bushra Naji Wahesh Bargheesh, 17, of Jenin, killed by IDF gunfire to her head while in her bedroom during an incursion. 22 April, 2007 -Abdul-Karim Karim Khaled Zahran, 15, of Deir abu-Mashal, near Ramallah, killed by IDF gunfire to his chest while grazing animals.

That no more Israeli kids were killed was not due to Palestinian clemency. Israeli's do not use their children as suicide bombs. They protect their kids. Palestinians use their kids as weapons.

Did it occur to you that maybe most of those palestinian children did not die? How can you still trust a left wing journalist after this? Also, if the Palestinians really cared a bit more about their kids most of those who indeed died would still be alive.

- & a nice conversation you guys are having there. i will try to tell you something, no intention to disturb you, not at all. but i guess this might be a good moment to say something. as you both may know, i am not one who spends too much time in a row on this blog. maybe it's not my privilege, & i'd have wished it to be, ok? to dana i'd say: you sound like a really impressive american, like an ideal one, if you ask me. & to you johnboy: i also think it's really great to ask a real question one might have. but i do wonder if you for even once thought of asking any of your own countrymen footsoldiers this question; why must they - & what's the strange reason? - for sosme reason be participating in every western WARCRIME VENTURE (according to your own book, baby) that have been comitted for the last, shall we say 2 decades, 3, 4, 6, you tell me johnboy, why is j. howard & co doing this right now f.ex., both in afgan. & iraq, & have you at least thought of asking them a few things?

The rabid zionists who have posted to this article are so caught up in their hysteria that they ignore the facts. Levy has in fact written and commented several times on the death of Israeli children. However, the fact is that 6 TIMES as many Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli soldiers, then Israeli children killed by Palestinians. No matter how much your rant and rave and spew bile, the Zionists can not change this fact. YOu are all demanding that Gideon Levy acknowledge the death of Israeli children and condemn it (which he has in the past). If Levy is expected to do this, then why don't you - acknowledge that Israel has killed 850 children in their homes, in their schools and on the streets and condemn it. Of course you won't... why ... because as many have you have written you think its okay to kill Palestinian children and their lives are not of the same value as Jews. Once again you demonstrated that zionism = racism.

The last time Israeli minors in Israel were killed by Arabs was in July 2005. The last time an Israeli minor in the territories was killed by Arabs was in March 2006. Since March 2006 167 Arab minors were killed by IDF.

Why dont you consult and read the Btselem website and familiarise yourself with the facts before you publish a post with totally unfounded accusations against Arab parents?

the worst thing someone can do is be totally ignorant and inconsiderate of others that have been killed and maimed by suicide bombers. all this guy does is write about what is going on with with the illigitimate culture of refugee jordanians and egyptians that call themselves "palestinians". he never considers the pain and suffering that these people have inflicted upon jews in israel. maybe what israeli citizens should do is evey time he fights for the rights of suicide bombers and their supporting families, relatives of israeli victims of suicide attacks should reply with a list of the dead caused by the monsters that he supports.

and what would happen to all the inhabitants depending on those refineries click idiot? this is awarning under the racial and religious act 2006 anymore and acomplaint will be made to the east sussex police !

the fact that many reservists and ex-soldiers speak and write good English or are from English-speaking countries. These might not be interested in discussing Israeli affairs with the outside world, which is often considered antagonistic. They do discuss them with each other in Hebrew language newspapers. I don't think it's about language so much as the audience one chooses to address. This surely applies to Arabs too, many of whom are, in my experience, also multilingual.

SELLIER from LYON of course it doesn?t matter to Gideon Levy, Why do you think he is writing his hypothetical indictment, of a SNIPERS not a SOLDIERS are killing the Palestinian Children, why do you think it does not occur to Mr. Gideon Levy that bullets that are aimed to the foot of a protester could ricochet when hitting the floor making it more and more possible for people to get hurt by only being in the area of the shooting. Why Do You Think a Post as This One Would be censored by Haaretz if they wouldn?t be sure only 2 people will read it (meaning that they are permitted to surface only at the end of the day, and sometimes they do not at all)?

See how good Hamas is in this propoganda. Sacrificing a kid for national unity and blaming Israel.WOW I think my assumption is as crazy as clickfool.

Of all the pro-Palestinian posters, you are by far the most hypocritical.

What has the fact that other children died (or did not die) to do with this case? Fact is that you can't allow journalists to invent facts , just because they want their opinions confirmed! The whole Al Dura story stank from the beginning. People have died because of it. And I lost my last remnant of confidence in any newspaper of the left just by reading mister Levy's editorial. Shame on you!

No comment!

Articles like this are written for the sole purpose of turning world and especially US public opinion against Israel and also to induce enough guilt into the Israeli public to get them to cave into all the Palestinians unreasonable demands. It's just really beyond shameful, especially considering Levy has never written one single article of sympathy for the hundreds of Israel children brutally and cruelly murdered and maimed by Palestinian terrorists over the years.

"So why aren`t their voices here?" (johnboy referring to reservists/soldiers) Good question. I have, in the past, also wondered where are the palestinian voices. Given that the most heated discussions occur on columns that concern them, the near-absence of authentic palestinian voices is glaring - give or take a few who come and go. So here is my theory: it's about language. Though israelis take English in school (at least 8 years of it), as do most pals, their command of the language is insufficient for them to feel comfortable expressing themselves on matters politic, even in a short post. Am certain that we'll find many of the soldier/ex-soldier segment on Haaret's Hebrew version. Demographics here are primarily Jewish diaspora. Of the Israeli posters most made Aliyah as adults (+ few from Anglo households). Most did not serve in the IDF, or reserves. Many are observant. The tenor tilts rightward as a result. The Israeli ex-patriat posters are the most mixed bag, I reckon.

Whine, whine, whine: such a typically zionist response.

It's always a pleasure to read your honest and sincere words on these threads, Sylvienne. These repetitive zionists are thoroughly conditioned in a cult, and that is the easiest way to understand their peculiar behaviours. Nevertheless, they are wrong, wrong, wrong in supporting this evil squatterdom that they have established through terror upon land that isn't theirs. It is somewhat weird that they cannot participate in debate: it would seem that their cult-programming has robbed them of that skill. So, of course, they seem to the rest of the world to be not only evil, but mentally challenged as well. Regards, as always, Hannah.

The figures of btselem are interesting to analyze. For btselem, a child is someone of less than 18 years of age. However, in the list of victims, btselem is careful to report (1) the age and (2) the circumstances of the death. Most deaths are boys between the ages of 14 and 18, and in a large proportion of the cases, the victim was holding a weapon (and in this cas, btselem considers them as combatants) or demonstrating (and in this case, btselem does not consider them as combatants). Everything can be read on their web site, which develops a virtue that does not interest the "journalist" Gideon Levy: interest and respect for the facts.

Great post, Neil! The day will come when the criminal zionists will be hunted down as the animals they are, and they will finally stand as the accused in the World Court. I suspect that the lead hunters and prosecutors of these criminals will in fact be Jews, as it was in the hunt for Adolf Eichmann. Never underestimate the innate sense that Jews have for justice. Regards, and keep posting, Hannah.

""With these out of action Israel would grind to a halt in a couple of weeks. I would keep firing Shahabs until these two refineries were destroyed beyond repair" Yes, but America would quickly make up the difference in oil for Israel before it ground to a halt, don`t you think?" Good morning, Silvienne. Possibly, but tt would take a vast logistical exercise to keep Israel going with tankerloads of refined fuel. If Iran flattened Israel's two oil refinery complexes at Ashdod and Haifa the Israeli economy and war machine would rapidly grind to a halt. Destruction of your enemy's fuel supplies should always be a primary target for military planners.

"Home, home on the range, Where the deer and the antelope play; Where seldom is heard a discouraging word And the skies are not cloudy all day."

HE KNOWS THAT ALL HIS LEFT-WING LUNATIC IDEOLOGY WILL BE DESTROYED ONCE ELECTIONS ARE CALLED..AND THE LEFT WILL BE DESTROYED BY THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL BECAUSE MOST ISRAELIS ARE RIGHT-WING AND HATE THE LEFT-WING TRAITOROUS CORRUPT ELITE/MEDIA/POLITICIANS. GIDEON LEVY WILL ONE DAY SOON BE HUNTED DOWN FOR TREASON BY THE PEOPLE IN ADDITION TO THE REST OF THE HAARETZ STAFF. YOU HAVE NO PLACE TO HIDE EXCEPT LEAVING ISRAEL ONCE AND FOR ALL.NO MERCY WILL BE SHOWN TO YOU.

"Yes, but America would quickly make up the difference in oil for Israel before it ground to a halt, don`t you think?." The US has no oil of its own with which to supply the zionists entity. Regards, Hannah.

Stop conflating disgust for so-called Israel with anti-semitism! It is untrue, it is pathetic, it is cheap, and it is banal. There are many Jews who are revolted by the policies and practices of the zionist entity: do not attempt to speak on their behalf.

There have not been suicide bombings thanks to the IDF, who have thwarted many, not that the terrorists did not want to.

Rather than send them out to confront the enemy as human shields for gunmen,as sucide bombers,to pick up Qassem launchers etc? Martrdom poisoned minds of children are a Pal and other Moslem fact. Deny it if you can.

CHILDREN! DORIS YOUR ONE DIMENSIONAL WORLD AMTCHES THAT OF GIDEON AND AMIRA IT ALL HAPPENS IN A VACUUM ! TELL YOUR MUSLIM PAYMASTERS TO STOP AND IT WONT HAPPEN !

...to save the rest from the same fate. How do you choose which are to die so that the others may live? Peace and reconciliation is a better option. Wise up.

Dutch, it would be counterproductive to increase the heat because we don't want to increase the existing anger but we need to simply prod the Israeli side at looking at some not-so-nice things happening in the hope that something will be done to stop the abuse. The article is informing those at home that are completely unaware of what is going on in their names by the IDF and I'm hopeful this will yield some results because we know that not all people in Israel are the same.

Hannah you are going to stroke out if you continue on your rampage...its hard defending evil isn't it? You can try and try to change the facts but it just won't happen...you are descended from animals...beheaders...and followers of the devil... and may pigs always surround you.Do you like it Hannah...do you like to hear these things...do you think it is nice to behave like you do? Get a life and get the hell off of this forum.

If your wish comes true then all of the arabs will be dead also...why don't you take some valium...rest and then go to your nearest library and get some history books on the region and learn the truth..you know the truth sets you free and you need a good dose of reality. How come you are not upset about the horrendous murder of Theo Van Gogh by islamic terrorists? Boy you are one mixed up jerk...another supporter of islamic terrorism...watch your head because you live in a dangerous place....

The soldiers testimonies are from some very extraordinary people who have previously served in the Israeli Defense Force... they have the courage to speak up against inhuman acts perpetrated against the Palestinian people. Reference: "CommonDreams.org News Centre" 'Ex-Soldiers Break 'Silence' on Israeli Excesses.' by Haroon Siddiqui 17 December 2006 http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1217-21.html May Peace be with you Daniel.

and the blame went to idf........the same old story.

P: "somehow they manage to rip into a number which should be 70% children, but somehow is only 18%, fortunately Israel uses extraordinary care." How *do* you talk to someone who simply can not comprehend the written word? I am NOT saying that Israel fires randomly. I am saying that Israel fires when she should not resort to firearms. If you shoot when you shouldn't be shooting then it is INEVITABLE that innocent people are going to be killed, no matter how carefully you aim those weapons. To take one simple example; IDF soldiers are allowed to fire live ammo when people throw rocks. Responding to rock throwing with live fire is DISPROPORTIONATE and INAPPROPRIATE, and that forces you to pervert the concept of "extraordinary care" by pointing at the RATIOS of dead civilians, and not at the ABSOLUTE NUMBER. IN short; you are crowing about how carefully the IDF aims its deadly weapons, when I am pointing out that it should not even be pulling the trigger.

Excellent comments as always. Those who pretend to care for Palestinian children never condemn their abuses and endangement by Palestinian society. Tells me all I need to know about their "compassion".

Haaretz pay little attention to the complainer in post #315. You are responsible for the truth not government and army propaganda. Can you just imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and it was Israeli children who were being targeted by the Palestinians? Enough of the double standards here on the talkback. Tell it like it is. Dutch

Gideon Levy, You should take this to the next level and make a video of the Palestinian doctors and nurses talking about how the children were killed by the Army and the level of their fatal injuries and crippling injuries. Have the Gaza mental Health talk about their study on truama as Dr. Rothchild reporterd. Follow it up with Human Rights Watch Reports on the army's practices and why they felt the army's inquiry into Palestinian civilian deaths was "a sham" (URL noted in my previous post.) I am willing to support your project & perhaps others will. Make this army accountable. People are tired of their targeting of innocent Palestinian children. It's atrocious! Outraged, Dutch

Nathan Rai, the author's name is Gideon, not Gordon; relax before you have a heart attack. Your style of writing is not that much different from those here that you are criticizing and your description of Hamas is itself as rabid as they come.

The death of someones child is bad enough. The politicising or twisting it to satisfying ones owns perversions is sick to say the least. A rabid dog is an immediately recognisable danger.It needs to be destroyed. Hamas is rabid, and deserve to be exterminated. The strain of rabies that Gordon Levy displays is more dangerous because, more like AIDS, we feel its effects only when it is too late. The Sons of Israel must not let half truths and outright lies of those without, against the "never again" Israel like Hamas or those within, like the many Gordon Levys who think Entebbe was "murder of innocent Palestinians" blind them to the fate these suicidal perverts plan for the Sons of Israel. Like Hamas, Levy thinks all the world to be gullible idiots, who do not read the papers. The release of the full, unedited Al-Dura tape will be a G-dsend. Hamas cant destroy Israel in a thousand years. I cant say the same for the Gordon Levys you host and feed.

I don't get it. Has the editorial staff of Haaretz lost control? The first few posts deal with Iran. Was that the subject of this opinion article? Then a few more anti-Israelis chime in and dominate the discourse for the first half and then others dominate the discourse for the last half. These "people" write consistently over and over, and their venomous reponses are predictable. Why can't you limit their posts and give others, with thoughtful and well-meaning reponses a chance?

ChanahS, I did respond to your question several times about the assassinations but you refused to accept them time after time. I made it clear that I was not saying that the Mossad did it but that the Mossad COULD HAVE done it and you were unable to digest that subtle difference in the wording because you are so twisted up in your feelings of guilt that you simply lash out in defense even when you are not attacked. As to Gideon Levy's story here, of course there are some good Israeli actions and you don't need me to tell you about them. No matter which good someone tells us about ourselves, we are not being told something we don't already know (de la Rochefoucauld). You already know about Bteselem, Maschom Watch, the Bi'lin kids and 100 other Jewish agencies that are helping. The Yishai Karin psycho study paper I repeatedly quoted from is also full of good Israeli soldiers' actions but you did not read it; your loss that you didn't take the time to read the Haaretz article.

Children. Many innocent. And that is indeed tragic. Yes. More tragic even, is that they were not only miserably poor, but brainwashed into violence by Farfur, used by Islamic Jihad to load, unload and dismantle the qassams at the launching sites; used as foliage and camouflage by all Palestinian terrorist sects; used as flesh-bombs, their brains and innocence raped by Iranian Ayatollahs who have penetrated Palestinian collective consciousness and plunged it to the lowest of lows, to a necrophilia that only matches the use of children for minesweeping by Iran in the eighties. Babies are photographed with suicide belts and islamist slogans on their foreheads. That's how many Palestinians, many Arabs and many Muslims love their children. As flesh and blood for their indulgent, irredemable hatred. So ponder for a moment, Gideon, before you crow about what's scandalous.

True PETER, animals protect their young, but I should remind you also that WILD animals kill other animals youngs too !! Simply because thet do not belong to their pack. A civilised country Peter do not shoot real bullets at youngsters throwing stones. PETER, I should remind you also that people throwing stones and other objects, happens almost in every country, even in what you would call civilised countries. However, in those nations the rate of killing is not as high as the ones committed by your IDF !! Talking about animals, look in your backyard.

At the homepage, Haaretz makets Levy's article, with words that could perfectly be borrowed from Iran's governmental IRNA agency: "IDF's scandalous killing of children". The article by Gideon Levy is titled: "Mohammed al-Dura lives on". I have already stated a few times, that the gap between the outrageously antisemitic marketing hook on the home page, and the article's actual title and content, can only mean Haaretz caters to antisemites and to the worst breed of antisemitc Israel-bashers. This manipulation is of the lowest level, and erodes what's left of the newspaper that still, prides itself of being intelligent and progresive. HAARETZ: Enough of hollow anti-Israel slogans; enough of catering to those who hate Israel and the Jewish people !

Actually Gideon seems to care only for palestinian children. Where is his complaints when israeli children are blown to pieces.

right about the point where he talks about firing too many bullets and how they are bound to rip into innocent victims even with the most extraordinary care. somehow they manage to rip into a number which should be 70% children, but somehow is only 18%, fortunately Israel uses extraordinary care. Videogameboy continues to serve up fantasy and expect others to accept it. hehe by now you'd thing he'd have figured out that nobody takes him seriously aside from a few other arabist apologists,

Because there hasn't been a suicide bombing in Israel for years. Because Palestinian children are being killed by the IDF at the rate of 120 a year since 2000

The stats by human rights group B'Tselem, Israel, were already out there. Johnboy makes a point when he suggests Israelis apologists pervert the message, and having a left wing writer discuss this in a left wing paper has the Zionists laughing behind their hands. Typical Zionist response is that they shouldn't be criticized for being more efficient killers. Wrong response. Peace and reconciliation is the answer. http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties.asp

"Get on the side of Justice", you say to Dutch Dirk. But what is the side of justice, exactly? Israel has killed 850 children since 2007. That is a fact. Do you condone these murders?

"Are you not the very fellow who bragged on these threads,about your ability to circumvent the "Anti-Discrimination Laws" in the USA. Your claim was you managed to "avoid" selling property to undesirables.Namely "non jews" Victor Hardman actually did and said that?

"Rockets are fired at Israel to inflict civilian casualties and a great number during the time when students are going or in school" But it hasn't happened yet, now has it? No Israeli child has been killed by the rockets. Meanwhile, Palestinian children are being killed by Israel at the rate of 120 a year since 2000.

"Jewish children were killed. So what? Big deal!I only worry about Palestinian children"." That's the whole point, Arnon. Israel doesn't worry about Palestinian children in the least. It has killed 850 of them since 2000. These are shocking statistics.

Thanks Hannah, nice to see you. Although I should be used to it by now, still it astonishes me to read the zionist posters here who completely ignore the facts of Levy's article and shout the usual party line: "anti-semite"! Not to mention (though I will) the posters who continue to call Israel the most moral country in the world... Best regards

Protest? 850 kids dead. . . What the hell is this. Protests are not relevant. This level of killing has to be condoned at the highest levels within the Israeli Parliament. If not, why have there not been investigations. The line of command suggests responsibility as well. Prosecute the war criminals. If this cannot be done. Then block access of Israeli polititians and military personnel to civilised countries. There is no statute of limitations on war crimes. They can be hunted down and prosecuted. I remember another institute that did this. The Simon Weisenthal center. Ironic isn't it? Pity there wasn't US$100M from an Arab source to set this up. . . Maybe there should be. . . . Document. . . Find evidence. . . Prosecute. . .

"And as you have said before no reliable missile system has invented,yet. esp. when the system faces numerous missiles, it will be completely disable" Correct. Israel, with all its high-tech and state-of-the-art weaponry, cannot even stop the homemade Kassam rockets from falling.. Regards

Yes you may be taught purity of arms as you say but you well know that it is different situation when you are on the ground where your training could go out the window. You as an IDF soldier are best trained and equipped to perform well and win a battle. However, your training did not pan out last year in Lebanon, you must admit! Yes a lot of mothers take pride of the death of their children but usually after the fact!! There is no mother on this earth that will strap explosives aroud her child and send him to die!!! Wake up Marc! In regards of the figures, they come from within you!! You and I, are not keeping count of casualties on a daily basis, but there are people who are doing it for us. If you have a problem with the source, then take it on Levy. To you,nothing's worse than one of your people saying what you don't like to hear, it hurts doesn't it Marc ? It is devastating to you. Advice? take it, admit it, work on avoiding it and fix it Sir. That's what you can take pride of.

Do you have any comment on post #37 by Westwell, in which he states that Israel has killed 850 children in the last seven years?

"anti semitic hot air is no replacement for fact and knowledge!!" Ah, how true, Victor! Take a look at Westwell's facts: "850 children and teenagers in 7 years, that is more than 120 a year, that is 1 child / teenager every 3 days. 31 children last October, that is 1 child a day." Post #37. Any comment on that?

"I suspect that Israelis lead cocoon existences, allowing theie leaders to do unspeakable things in their name without even thinking about it" And what does that remind you of, Click? What other country?

How right you all are! As usual, Israel plays the "victim" card, in the face of the actual facts...hundreds of Palestinian children killed by the IDF. Personal attacks and abuse is all they have left when the facts are against them. Regards

"With these out of action Israel would grind to a halt in a couple of weeks. I would keep firing Shahabs until these two refineries were destroyed beyond repair" Yes, but America would quickly make up the difference in oil for Israel before it ground to a halt, don't you think?

Where are the 1st-person narratives? Israel has been an occupying power for 40 years i.e. generations of Israeli soldiers have "policed" the occupied territories, and large numbers of reservists must have done - still are - duty in the West Bank since the 2nd intifada. So why aren't their voices here? Why don't I read someone shouting out that they served in the Golani brigade, and IDF pettiness, cruelty and barbarity was every bit as bad as Levy says it is? Why don't I come across an IDF soldier insisting that he and all his comrades treated Pals with dignity and respect, constantly attempting to win over civilian hearts and minds while trying mightily to minimize the disruption they cause to those people? There must be huge numbers of Israeli soldiers and reservists out there who *have* seen all this with their own eyes; why don't they ever stand up and tell us what it was like when THEY were there? They would know, so why don't they say?

"More importantly Gideon,why doesn`t the israeli government see to see to it that this never happens again!" Lakshmi, the murder of Palestinian children has been part of so-called Israeli government policy since the beginning. Prime Minister Golda Meir stated something to the effect of when one wants to get rid of fleas, one must kill the nits.

I know you understand the issues jane.What makes me laugh is the way the arabs go after people like you and me and margie and others ,and we want a two state solution.They really are lost arent they?Regards

Why are the Palestinian using children as suicide bombers this is the real question. And why do some leftists like Gideon Levy cry out when they get killed. Why doesn't Levy cry about the death of innocent Jewish babies blown up by Palestinians? Of course Levy doesn't care about that since only cares about Jews being pure. He doesn't care about Arab murderers because he thinks this is the way they really are and will never change. Levy's Jewish purity is tantamount to racism.

You are an inspiration to peace-seeking people everywhere! P.S. Please email me c/o Hamas (or Hezbullah, I am easy to reach) if you are interested in taking your moral stand to the next level.

The question is relevant.Why?because it is the root of all evil. Having said this,we must undestand the predicament of Gideon Levy.He has no other alternative bar one:That is to rehash the same story over and over,for which we already had a week ago on another forum So,Gideon thinks...Emmmmwhat shall I write today?Oh I know!The Al Dura affairs comes in handy and I'll resurrect it again,and make a few more shekels out of it eh?Oh good that's the ticket.I'll beging toask my secretary and bingo there it is.Out and all's well that ends well.Money in the bank and I'll go and have a drink on this pronto. END OF STORY

- let's hope? so the idf criminals are actually targeting children now, is that it? so somebody somewhere for sure, in the idf hierarchy really decides," now we need a child /two /three /thirty? kids to die here", you know, for this reason or for that reason.. or it's the scattered lone soldier that happens to make the decision, maybe he's bored, or maybe he had something too bad for dinner, or maybe he just plain likes it, IS THAT IT? well, what a pity, that some whole nations are basically born as war criminals these days, while the rest ar just blind, automated criminals against humanity (ones that don't even need to read their job description to be it, you know, - well well, aren't we all just products of time, & chance , anyway? well, of course, all of us except of the really bad people on earth, 'cause there has to be a distinction somewhere, right? sorry aboujt the tune, ibdidn't mean to be mean me, did you make me? rgs, becky, -

JE: "Moreover, with regard to child civilians, Israel`s forces respect international law regulating the treatment of civilian populations (including, of course, children) during the conduct of hostilities." Israel refuses to accept the applicabilty of the Geneva Convention IV in the occupied territories, instead insisting that it applies the "humanitarian provisions" of those articles - without ever identifying which of the articles fall into that category, let alone explain how they decided that *this* article of GC IV is wheat, and *that* article is chaff. So that claim of yours is supported by nothing more than a "motherhood statement" by Israel. I am indebted to the talkback poster who drew my attention to this: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/909589.html which makes a rather sobbering rebuttal to your claim, Joseph. I suggest you read it, and wake up to yourself.

ADDENDUM I. Name of book: Al-Mutalaa Wa-Al-Nussous Al-Adabia, for the 8th grade Page 117: Everything previously written leads to the conclusion that Zionism constitutes a threat to all Arabs and must be fought by each and every Arab. Zionism is poised to take over the rest of Jerusalem and its holy sites and, thereafter, to continue, step by step, to complete its control of Palestine. In the third stage, it will invade Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and the rest of the Arab states. This will happen unless the Arabs take serious steps to exterminate the Zionist germ and thrust this evil out of the Arab homeland. If the Arabs ignore the danger that threatens them with destruction and avoid taking the necessary action, they will share the same fate as that of their Palestinian brothers II. Name of book: Al-Mutalaa Wa-Al-Nussous Al-Adabia for the 8th grade Page 120: My brother, the oppressor has crossed the line and the time has come for jihad and martyrdom." III. Name of book: Lughatuna Al-Arabia, for the 7th grade Part 2, page 17: The year 1948 is known as the year of the "Great Crime", when the "gang state" was established by means of invasion and conquest of towns and villages and abuse of their residents. Examples of this are the Deir Yassin massacre, the Kibya massacre, the Kafr Kassem massacre and others IV. Name of book: Altarbia Alwanya, for the 6th grade Page 15: a. Photo: The jihad-fighter, Iz a-Din al-Kassam b. A map of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and the Gaza strip. Page 8: c. Map entitled "Geography of Palestine" (no marked borders; showing cities in the West Bank and Gaza and cities in Israel such as Jaffa, Haifa, Akko and Nazareth, as in one unit).

No recognition of Israel - Israel is not mentioned as a state, but rather in the context of issues such as the settlements and use of natural resources, or wars and investigations. The borders of the state are not delineated and its name does not appear on maps, which bear the name "Palestine". Some maps contain the names of cities that existed before the establishment of the state; others show Jewish settlements only in the territories, but do not reflect the true situation there. The Palestinian ambition to rule over all of the Land of Israel - A photograph of the city of Jaffa identifies it as a Palestinian city, and a picture of the Al-Jazzar mosque in Akko bears the caption: "Palestine is Our Land." Students are expected to aspire to the unification of Palestine and to understand that the Palestinians, descendants of the Canaanites, have first rights to the land. The struggle against Israel - the "Right Of Return" - The textbooks state that the refugee camps are temporary quarters, until the residents return to the places that they were forced to abandon. One book contains a song praising Iz a_Din al_Kassam as the heroic figure of the struggle. Jihad is taught as a value for the citizen who desires to defend his homeland. Using any and all available means is presented as a religious imperative, and anyone killed in the course of defending his homeland becomes a "shaheed" (martyr) - all this is included in a textbook for the 6th grade. The Oslo Accords - The accords are described as a move that enabled the Palestinian liberation army to entrench itself in the territories. Principles such as normalization and coexistence are, of course, not even mentioned. 6. In the eight years since the signing of the Oslo Accords, another generation of pupils has been educated to believe that the establishment of the State of Israel was "the Big Crime" and that the Palestinians, together with the Arab and Muslim states, must fight it to "the death." 7. The pace at which the PA is working to change the content of the textbooks is slow and does not reveal much enthusiasm, to say the least, towards fulfilling the explicit Palestinian commitment "to educate pupils in the spirit of the peace agreement." That the PA is dealing with this subject unwillingly, under Israeli and international pressure, is obvious from the meagerness of the results

I think you know by now that I am for the two state solution and support the upcoming talks in Maryland 100%. Once things calm down, if they do, I suppose Israel could be more a part of the EU than of the Middle East. I don't imagine Israel will enjoy a seat at the Arab League any time soon no matter what but I do think new alliances are forming with some of the Gulf and that could be the start of something. Who knows?

Of course not and never would say such a thing. I believe radical Islam is the enemy and moderate Islam is the solution. Any Palestinian who is against terrorism can be my friend. Any nationality including American and Israeli who facilitates, participates in or supports terrorists is the enemy.There are plenty of posters on this very site whom I consider enemies and they are from many countries and religions including the author of this disgusting column.

I know you are going to pretend you dont understand but a reader will. THere coulld have been peace a long time ago if the ARab nations wanted it. Israel was their excuse for corrupt government, lack of jobs and esducation. Now that you have this little Hitler in Iran that wants to become boss of the area Israel is neeed more now then ever. How would it look if Jordan ,SAudiARabia, DUBI and more went after the leader of Iran.They also know if bomb is dropped the area would be distroyed for years. Let Israel do the fighting. Bet the MUslim nations even send money to buy the weapons needed.

Had any luck with that ol recognition problem.

I am boycotting all Gideon Levy articals. He is just one low after another. I think the only way for management to replace him is to have fewer and fewer readers. It is too bad, because I generally like the reporting with this paper.

SS: "Was bullet evidence ever recovered? " No, because: 1) The IDF demolished the scene a week later, and that meant no bullets could be recovered 2) The Pals did not keep any bullets extracted from either al Dura nor the father. They thought it pointless to do so, because they did not know at the time that the event was going to be broadcast, and they *knew* the IDF would not investigate - any more than they have investigated the other 850 children who have been killed since that day. Their aim was to ready the body for burial, and to patch up the father as best they could. It is a minor point, of course, but if they did stage this incident then they could have easily "produced" M-16 bullets to bolster their claim. They did't. As I say, a minor point, but it is an admission that you wouldn't think they'd make if they had staged this event, coz they'd simply stage-manage the bullets too.

A writer with compassion and empathy. You should be proud to have such person writing in a Jewish newspaper. You know in your heart Gideon writes truth, don't you, Kath? You are probably not a heartless person, just afraid of not being accepted in your adopted, racist State perhaps? As one good deed deserves another, the word 'saw,' is spelt as such, not SOW. Cherio.

Fifteen as the minimum age for child participation in armed conflict , appears to be consistent with Islamic law, as those under fifteen are not permitted to participate in jihad. An analysis of the fundamental sources of Islamic law (Shariah), the primary sources of jurisprudence, namely provisions within the Quran and the Sunnah (both applicable to all sects within Islam), unequivocally leads to the conclusion that the age requirement for participation is fifteen, contingent upon the further manifestation of maturity. That, regardless of any state of emergency, internal strife, or war. A quote from from the International Association of Jewish Lawyers and Jurists in Justice, Vol. 26, Winter 2000, p.p. 7-11) . " Taking into account the governing features of armed conflicts of our time, which occur, for the most part, not to say the decisive part, in the media - it is maintained that the wide, systematic and continuous use being made of children, principally for the purpose of gaining public opinion (by direct violation of the most fundamental duty to prevent their participation in the circle of violence and in blunt disregard to the requirement to prohibit, as far as possible, their access to the battlefield), indeed amounts to a calculated enrollment of children, and, in fact, their recruitment. Under the prevailing circumstances, where we can clearly identify a conscious and intentional exploitation of the 'product of the participation' of children - it seems that any argument of 'voluntary' or 'spontaneous' participation is not only baseless in reality and cynical, but also ill-founded: such continuous use and its exploitation/manipulation is tantamount to actual encouragement, and therefore there is no room for any consideration of either elements of 'spontaneity' or 'voluntarism'. Obligated to the fundamental humanitarian principles, reflecting common values deriving from established customs shared by all nations, Israel seeks to avoid injury to innocent Palestinian civilians, including children, even as it confronts widespread violence directed against it and its citizens. Moreover, with regard to child civilians, Israel's forces respect international law regulating the treatment of civilian populations (including, of course, children) during the conduct of hostilities. The time has come to ask why the Palestinians are not making efforts in order to protect their own children from harm. Indeed, how can those claiming statehood and partnership in the family of nations allow themselves to offend so brutally the principles of humanity and the dictates of public conscience which constitute very basic norms of the family of nations ?!

no regret over his actions same as the arab mind on wich G.Levy appears to have been educated . G.Levy say " But even if there is some doubt, it is certain that the IDF has killed and is killing children. " , A normal Journalist would have said that the staged event shouldn't have been staged to begin with , for war is no movie and neither a game , once dead , a kid and adult may not get up , walk away or return to his playstation virtual game to shoot again . Same as we lately learned about Hezbollah enticing kids for electronics games to shoot at IDF . But G. Levy says "But even" it shows a criminal mind that has no regret over his actions and that is because he has been educated in hatred by pan arab nationalism and Jihad by Islam against jews and IDF . Thus when pals kids are educated to violence from their textbooks and environment.against jews and IDF , the arabs pedagogue , the arab psychologue knows that IDF must use force for self defense , consequently G.Levy says " it is certain that the IDF has killed and is killing children. ", in an intentional accusatory manner , G. Levy is stating an interpretation of facts while concealing the context and thus G. Levy is stating a falsification of the truth . G.Levy justifies his intentional criminal actions By provoking an IDF self defense reaction , .when to begin with G.Levy is bend on criminal intent , his arab education , is the proof . FM Livni said that "when Hezbollah sleep with a missile , he should expect to 'wake up' with an other missile" , , FM Livni said so to defend Israel's right to self defense against aggression. and in this case the intentional arab urban terror attrition . G. Levy as part of his criminal intent also says that he expect Israel to compensate the kid's family , when as we know by now that the event was statged and that the kid was killed by pal fire , G.Levy in this case is worse then arabs whose families were compensated per dead by Saddam and by now thru arabs banks acting as cover to fabricated charity organisations financially supporting terror , No matter what , G.Levy want Israel to pay the price . Haratzahta ve gam yarashta is G.Levy. Even Int'l law compensate not colateral damage when the target is legit , for colateral damage is permissible when unintentional , moreover in the ugly case of arab urban terror when the terrorist intentionally exploit terror supporters , terror networks , terror infrastructure brandished as 'civilian' just so G.Levy would write " But even" . Meaning for arabised G.Levy the arab victim has no value as long as the goal is against Israel, IDF , Jews . As long as arabised G.Levy and arabs take control over Israel wich arabs considers as palestine as arabs lands whether it is Yaffo , Acre , or Jerusalem , as their schools text books , arabs medias , culture brainwash arabs to think . thus the criminal intent to educate to hatred , violence in order to supply a reservoir of insurgents , of terrorists , of militants within the terminology for pan arab nationalism for arab territorial unity , And with the terminology of 'shaheeds', martyrs for jihad , to fabricate justification based on religious ideology .

- this debate is not really about children. It's about the (random) killing of innocent people in general. But if even children are going to be amongst the most unprotected ones in a conflict, in a war, if you like, then of course things are really terribly terribly bad, & thank you, G. Levy , for speaking up on behalf of the most unprotected among Palestinian civilians. Still, the issue is , in my mind, unfotunately so, really about innocent civilians having to be unprotected in a war-zone. Maybe somebody would argue we're not talking about war-zones here. OK, whatever it is we're having here, I guess (I don't live in Gaza, thank G-d, I don't have to), the issue isn't very deep - I even wish it was, & it is a terrible issue. Are the IDF soldiers, in principle, as much responsible for protecting their own civilians, as their enemy's (/opponent - I'm not in love w/the enemy word either) civilians???? & Let's still cry & pray for the Pal. children exposed to this, as well.

YOUR ARTICLE IS COURAGOUS, AND I HOPE WE HEAR MORE VOICES IN israel like your voice ,telling the truth,trying to change the brutal killing of the palistinians.this is the only way to save israel, from it self ,from the pscho pathetic path she is going through right now.not the mighty america nor the nucliar bomb will save this stillbirth child .nothing but change genom.change the zionism origine.

"In the past two years in the territories, Hamas has killed no Israeli children, which Israel has killed 12 Palestinian children. In the recent war in Lebanon, Hizbollah killed 6 Israeli children with their rockets, Israel killed 130 Lebanese children ..." Natallie Your obsession with the number of dead killed, as a measure of rightounsess, is strange. Since you use your grisly ledger to determine right and wrong in this conflict, are we to assume that, should a Qassam rocket, God forbid, hit its target (say a school or community center) and kill 60 Israeli's, that you would start writing posts supportive of Israel.

will never comes out of one's mind after witnessing his death, whether it been staged or not.You are very right also about BTselem report of the killings of 8 5 0 Children/Adolescents. It is a tragedy that can be avoided from both sides. It is about time that the IDF get a bit more careful when it comes to children throwing stones or getting near Security fences, If the IDF can see the person with their TELESCOPIC SIGHTS, then if they killed innocents children they, then are war Criminals,nothing less. Professionals army, I'm sure will not be proud of targetting children . Let us hope that the 31 CHILDREN who died in OCTOBER this year will be the last, and that there will not have( 92 ) young death as in 2 0 0 6.

If levy was German, Hitler would have done the same with him.

When you shell a beach, drop a bomb on an apartment block, use a buldozer to crush people under their homes (Jenin), drop bombs on streets, train snipers to shoot in the head, you can be sure children will be killed.

How long will Haaretz serve the Israel enemy? Jewish history knows a lot of Jew hated Jews. They are the shame for Jew nation but only anti-Semitic media hired them before. However, an editor must review an article before publication and have to make a few questions to author. Levy claims: ?So this ridiculous focus on who killed al-Dura, a question that will never be resolved?. The first - it is not ridiculous focus on who killed al-Dura ? if you remember shortly after this ?killing? Palestinians lynched two reservists accidentally enter Ramala. Palestinians mutilated bodies so terrible that in was impossible to show them to relatives. Palestinians described this as a revenge for al-Dura death. The second - this question will be resolved. Levy never learns about criminology, it is his personal problem but an editor must know this. ?If Israel were really interested in improving its "public relations," it would embrace the al-Dura family instead of all the foolish investigations. It would provide compensation to the family and show the world that it is truly and sincerely sorry about the death of one child.? Why does Israel have to accept responsibility? If Levy wants to pay al-Dura family, he may pay himself but does not give an advice to spend taxpayer?s money. ?Soldiers emerged from an armored jeep and aimed their weapons at the head of a child who threw stones at them.? Levy does not understand a stone is a weapon too. Soldiers must protect themselves and protect the country a symbol that they are. Guilty are those who taught kids to throw stones.

One person's propaganda is another's truth. You take your personal views, abhorent as they may be, and send them to a "zionist" newspaper. Your threats to the "cult" of Zionism is old hat. Jews know that Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people. Your hatred does not change that. Israel is a democracy which allows a Gideon Levy to publish views which question Israeli actions. The fact that Israel shows her disagreements shows strength. Atleast you don't cry crocodile tears for Israeli dead. Does it not seem strange that your hateful views are allowed in an Israeli newspaper, but my views are not printed in an Arab or Muslim paper?

You ask------"What sort of people use their children as human sheilds " You might ask the Illegal squatters on occupied territory.They seem to put their beloved children in harms way. I guess that is ok for the chosen people. Hypocricy at it,s ugliest.

General Moshe Dayan explain in his book how Syrians were provoke on a daily basis, until they succumbed and retaliated, thus given the IDF a chance to invade the Golan Heights. In 1982 Ex Premier Menachem Begin admitted how Sinai was invaded too. ""In june 1967 we had a choice, The Egytian army concentrations in the SINAI approaches do not prove that Pres.Nasser of Egypt was really about to attack us.WE MUST BE HONEST WITH OURSELVES. WE DECIDED TO ATTACK HIM" But unfortunately all the conqured Arab Territories(better known as the OCCUPIED TERRITORIES) have to be returned back to their respective owners, so as everybody can live in PEACE & SECURITY, otherwise perpetual WARS. So for 4 0 odd years we've had thousands of death from all sides and for W H A T ?? The time as come for everybody to put everything behind us and start a new PAGE in our HISTORY. Let us all work TOGETHER for PEACE and a better life. Salaam.

CHILD sacrifice an abomination to be avoided, not encouraged by martyrdom brainwashing. What civilised country would send their children out to confront a military force,to throw stones and objects that can be mistaken for offensive weapons? What civilised country would allow children to be the shields for gunmen hiding behind them? Needless to say the Mullahs of Iran had no problems sending child martyrs running over land mines. Arafat set the tone,the woman's womb was his most powerful weapon. He sang "a million martyrs to Jerusalem" with children.Arafat was the so called moderate by the useful idiots. Now there is Hamas with full on Islamic martyrdom for children as seen on their media.

Labhras Yes Labhras and What are You the Freak of Peace? On the contrary, from what I have already seen! For a person how states he is but a bystander you have proven you can?t see the suffering on both sides of the border, and time and again your posts state your goal is to trash Israel?s Image! Let me tell you one thing, when you and people like Lakshmi and Crazy Hannah will start getting down of your silly horses and step towards the Israeli side you will see more Israelis going towards your side, every action has an opposite reaction that is similar and usually grater, that is how things work in life!

Ian Zwerling, I think you have a great misunderstanding of Israeli public opinion. Gideon's views represent a very small (and diminishing?) portion of the Israeli public. The vast majority of Israelis disagree with him; would it be so that they were a little bit more "self-hating" like him.

...as long as Arabs are doing the killing. Where are the Arab protests against the massacre going on in Iraq? The Iraqis can do nothing to get it to stop. All the Palis need to do is stop shooting rockets into Israel.

The conclusion that can be drawn from Al-Dura case is that all those episodes may have been staged in the same manner.

Shoshanna, Do you really think that the hundreds of Arab children that are killed by IDF weaponry are all human shields put by evil Arab men? I think you have a huge misconception of reality. Doesn't it occur to you that the IDF might unintenionally have a killed a number of people that were around their targets in these attacks?

If only Israelis would have stick with what they were given during the partitioned of PALESTINE in 1947. Today we would have been living in a different world. The Policies at the time from the Arab side was that, with a combine armies they will defeat the JEWS, so they encouraged the Pals, to get out in order not to get hurt. While on the other hand the Jews seeing that some Pals were going, they in turn forced many thousands from their homes & villages, by sheer force of brutality/Murders,to make space for the immigrant Jews. Thus todays REFUGEES Problem, and when the Arab armies were defeated in 48, the Israelis added another 28% more territories to their 50% of Palestine and making it 78%. As GREEDINESS set in; Israel mounted Provocations against its neighbors Egypt,& Syria, in order to provoke a response to justify an expension of its borders.

To you people, Arabs or Palestinians its all the same. NOTHING but NOTHING ever belonged to the Jewish people, everything everywhere is STOLEN, houses, land, even our Capital Jerusalem which was founded by the Jewish King David for his people the Jews.... ! was STOLEN! - BTW, Perhaps you will explain how the Desert Dwellers - or were they already Arabs at the time - rushed in to the region of Palestine when the Jews were expelled to the Diaspora in 60AD by the Romans AND USURPED THE LAND AND HOUSES OF THE JEWS ....... Arabs have never paid COMPENSATION to the Jews for having taken over their land and their houses those two thousands years ago Indeed, the desert-dwellers or Arabs by then, took over everything which belonged to the Jews inder the Romans and have never paid Compensation. Why should the Jews PAY Arabs any compensation or give them any land today, They took enough from the Jews those two thousand years ago.

They had to make up the show to demonstrate "Israel's brutality", as it has happened in other occasions.

So many people at such great distance from the conflict fail to remember what has happened in the past. Israel has been besieged by her enemies for 60+ years in modern times. The Arab states send non-state actors to do their bidding and take their own lives inside a cafe, or a disco, or on a bus. You do not see Israeli men, women, and children making cross border raids to kidnap Arabs. You have Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, PLFP, and more acting on behalf of several of the most oppressive governments in history. The Ba'athist Syrians under Assad, the theocratic totalitarians under the Ayatollah Khameini. These Arab "freedom fighters" as they believe they are, hide behind their own children with weapons firing at Israeli soldiers. Israel is not the aggressor in the Middle East. She desires a peaceful coexistence,which is constantly upset by radicals who teach their children the "will of G-d" is that they kill themselves to kill innocents in cafes.

"In the recent war in Lebanon, Hizbollah killed 6 Israeli children with their rockets, Israel killed 130 Lebanese children using all manner of weapons." So much for the smart bombs and the very well trained IAF.

Besides, if they are considered children, why do their parents allow them to go fire the Israeli defense forces?

Jane, You have a simplistic picture of reality. Are all Palestinians the enemy? Do you think children that are killed are even old enough to have a viewpoint on the conflict? Gideon is only trying to highlight part of what's happening that Israelis and Jews mostly overlook... that is, that whether intended or not, a lot of children are being killed in Israeli attacks. And you actually think children go out to the streets deliberately to get killed? They don't know when exactly the bombs will fall, and the IDF can't be sure where all the people in the vicinity of their targets are at the time of their action.

what other frauds have been perpetrated for the Palestinians. Levy quotes BTselem figures that do not seperate children sent into confrontation and danger. The left is rattled.

Lakshmi The difference between Mahatma Gandhi and his movement, And the Palestinian movement, Is the difference between Black and White! I guess you have no intellectual ability to understand the differences!

"I suspect that Israelis lead cocoon existences, allowing theie leaders to do unspeakable things in their name without even thinking about it." I rarely disagree with you but on this one I will. This is exactly what Israelis want from their leaders. This is what they elect them for, to defend them from the monstrous Arabs. How many psychopaths on this very moderate talkback were bashing Olmert last years for not bombing Lebanon hard enough. As Dutch Dirk mentioned in his post (#33) that psychopaths are usually locked but in Israel they are elected to office and promoted to the highest ranks.

...is to present the selfhating idiot Levy the opportunity and platform to spread his venom against Israel as well as giving the dirty moron such as you the capability to comunicate your crap with cohaters on this site.

Equalizer: Thank you! You are correct. The people who post daily against Israel on this forum and writers like Levy and Hass are blinded by a hatred towards Israel so strong that it has created a form on insanity. What is most sick is how these people like the Arab terrorist change their tune from day to day. No matter what heinous, horrible crime, lie, murder the Palestinians are caught at they are excused, a justification (no matter how absurd) and Israel is to blame! Even when Fatah and Hamas murder each other's children in the streets (no outcry or media coverage), the Israeli haters blamed Israel! Even when the Hamas body guard said Fatah was worse than Israel and that EVEN Israel would not too the horrible acts that Fatah does! Thats from the voice of a Hamas terrorist! I know this, you know this and those educated on the topic know this. Unfortunately, the people here have no interest in truth and justice, just lies and hatred.

West, Having trained in the IDF I can tell you honestly that IDF soldiers are taught purity of arms and how not to be trigger happy. You mention 850 Palestinian children and where does this figure come from? When you realize that the Palestinians count armed 18 year old Militants as innocent teenagers you realize that the information is a lie and pure propaganda. Yes, Palestinians send their own children to kill and die for money, tv coverage, and the honor to be a Shaheed (a martyr). Don't believe me, you can hear this straight from Palestinian mother's mouths who cannot conceal their pride at how their children became murdering terrorist and killed innocent Jewish people. You enemies of Israel are the ones brainwashed and in a cult of hatred. None of you even have an inkling of the actual history and you support the worse collection of human rights violating, murdering group in the world in Islamic extremist. These Fascist Islamic people would kill you, me and all infidels.

Persian are not a Arabs and as long I know in history the Arabs has been Persian enemy and always they have tried to take over of south of Persia(Khozestan) and they believes that the Persian Gulf is Arabian Gulf. In history Israel did not have any thing against the Persian people By the way you are an extreme fanatic which has been brain washed by Ayat Ollah The real Persian enemies are Arabs and your Mullahs regime

Don?t be proved of that puppet regime. The Shiite has been waiting 1400 years for opportunity to take over of Islamic holy places and to proof that the Imam Ali is the first Khalifeh and like you said ( you have to be afraid of the day that the Iranian supporters unleash their power throughout the middle east. They are wherever there is a Shiite population: In Iraq, Lebanon, Aghanistan, Bahrain...They are able to turn the world to hell for Zionists and all who support them.)But first they need to fight against Sunny regimes and in case if they will defeat the Sunny then we will see if they are able to turn the world to hell for Zionists=Judaism By the way keep dreaming (Khabhayeh Khosh)

Levy's article is a shame. The film showing Al Durah's death does not show who "killed" him. The only witness was the cameraman who declared under oath that the Israeli deliberately shoot to kill during 45 minutes. He lied, and was forced to retract himself two years later. For Jews in the Diaspora the truth is essential. If this was a hoax how could the world media report these pictures without the slightest analysis? Israels and Jews bashing in the Media continue unabated in the media today. While critic of 850 killed children is justified, the systematic demonization of Israel in the Western media is not and must be fought by all means. If this were a hoax it would be an important lesson for the media and for the future. Anyway truth is essential to all honorable men, always and everywhere. Levy should have thought about this. But is Brutus an honorable man?

Stop your censor ship

As Ahmadinjad is killing women,men and children you are talking about "Zionists"...nothing like having your head up your a...

I am fed up too with people who always blame Israel in spite of the evidence that hamas et al never stopped launching qassams or murdering Israelis by any other means. I am fed up with people who want to make us believe hamas et al are pacifists.

That means hamas and co. will be defeated. Thanks for the good news.

Personally I am pretty much fed up with all those oh so decent rightwingers who blame EVERYTHING on the palestinians with not a shred of responsibility for the IDF. How extremely convenient, how wrong as Gideon Levi time and again proves.

You sure are spending much of your time digging up things about Israel to prove how terrible we are. Just as you did yesterday re the assassination issue. In fact you actually proved the point I was making and never came back to me on that - you had no retort, I presume, so prefered to abstain rather than concede. So now you are doing the same. By the same token you could spend your time researching the instances where Israelis helped the Palestinains, saved Palestinian lives, etc. etc - as you know that this happens too. You also do not mention the terrible things and the horrible use the Palestinians make of their own people to perpetrate terror acts on Israelis, the cynical involvement of their children for PR and the incessant attacks on Israel, including today. To you it is all a one-sided game. Stone throwing is harmless and Palestinian rage and rioting is justified. You don't think Israelis have the right to protect themselves or their children. You have shown this repeatedly.

You almost got the name right the second post.I could not let the following get by withouit response. You wrote, or rather "yelled"----"AND HOW MANY TIMES IN HISTORY HAS A COUNTRY GIVEN AWAY IT`S LAND TO AN ACTIVE SWORN ENEMY AS ISRAEL DID WITH GAZA" Caps are yours. You seem very emotional.Do you find that works for you.I never have. 1,Gaza is not yours to give away, and Sharon got out of there for pragmatic reasons,but they do not coincide with yours.He evacuated Gaza purely for "demographic reasons". 2, As to the rest of your post it is just further proof of what I already asserted.You are an obstacle to peace,not a solution.Your post reeks of such.You just do not see it.

Jane. You may wish to denial reality but it is a fact many one time supporters of Israel have gone over to the Palesatinian side. This isn't 1948 anymore and Israel no longer has the high moral ground--the Palestinians have it now. Yet I am still one of the fools who believes reason can prevail and people can come to their senses and resolve past differences. In addition, I think it's so important to have a long range vision here. In another 10-20 years the effects of globalization will throw our visions of nationalism & patriotism out the window. I feel this will be good news as I am fed up of people dying to save their country when its more like protecting their government's interests & promoting their agendas. Plus I believe as the Wellesley College professor Peggy Levitt has suggested in her book God Needs No Passport we ought to do away with borders & have the freedom to travel like commodities.That's where I feel the global economy is head- ing too! Cheers Dutch

Was bullet evidence ever recovered? If it was 5.56 then it was IDF, if 7.62x39 then it was Palestinian crossfire. Its a shame that people use al-dura for political purposes on both sides, when what really is needed is a proper investigation to clear up these things. Once that occurs, then we can assign blame.

The fuss was made when the "killing" was staged and they were blaming Israel for it.

Hello. I was suspicious of something like that. What a bunch of hypocrites. They pretend to care about children while they are using them for propaganda. And they call themselves human rights organizations. "ell me what you boast about and I will tell you what you lack."

and tyrants and for a time they seem invincible,but in the end they fall,never forget that. . ."

to it that this never happens again!

You wrote: "My suspicion is that you are a "pragmatist" for whom peace means keeping all Illegal Setlements and total capitulaton by the Palestinian People." I say: Pragmatism means doing what it takes to bring about an end to all the civillian suffering on both sides. Not to drag the struggle on eternally by supporting dead-end HOPELESS Deathcults like Hamas. You wrote: "It is not going to happen that way.So try making peace.You know ,real peace.Not hollow promises while your government proceeds with it,s land theft and criminal enterprises." I say: Israel has taken dozens of steps under rightwing gov's and left wing gov's. From prisoner releases to gifts of weapons, not to mention resussitating Arafat. AND HOW MANY TIMES IN HISTORY HAS A COUNTRY GIVEN AWAY IT'S LAND TO AN ACTIVE SWORN ENEMY AS ISRAEL DID WITH GAZA?? What have the Palestinians given/recirocated to Israel in the past 13YRS that even slightly compares to releasing prisoners and giving land? Terrorism?!

Sounds like as typical day on the job for the syrian police forces dont you think??

A two state solution is so vital for israel as once accomplished it can lower the iron curtain between it and the arab world, and become associate members of the EU thus allowing it european regional integration rather than the futile attempts to integrate in the ME.So yes Jane Israel must leave the ME and the door to that kingdom lies in a two state solution.Regards

Anybody who is Over the Age of 15 years old And bellow the Age of 21 years old, Is considered a Youth, And not a Child! Any body between the ages of 15 to 4 years old, Is considered a Child You won't go calling a 20 year old a child would you? So don't go calling 17 year old a child either So how convenient for the Palestinians and Btselem to include Youth as children in their count, Sorry but most killed are Youth that are up to mischief, rather then children that stay at home and tragically found their death, And yes I include Youth that throw stones, as Youth that are up to mischief, And seek action in a combat ground, And for those I have no pity!

I asked if in an arab army soldiers could complain about their officers and get away with it?? I guess the answer would embarass him too much???

Anybody who is Over the Age of 15 years old And bellow the Age of 21 years old, Is considered a Youth, And not a Child! Any body between the ages of 15 to 4 years old, Is considered a Child You won't go calling a 20 year old a child would you? So don't go calling 17 year old a child either So how convenient for the Palestinians and Btselem to include Youth as children in their count, Sorry but most killed are Youth that are up to mischief, rather then children that stay at home and tragically found their death, And yes I include Youth that throw stones, as Youth that are up to mischief, And seek action in a combat ground, And for those I have no pity!

The "freedom fighters" often use children in their operations, often operate from the middle of civilians, the crowded conditions in gaza are inherehtly dangerous places to fight and as one can seefrom the news casts, civilians including young people often crowd stand right next to the fighting.If Arabs were truly concerned with the well being of their kids they would take more effort to keep them out of harms way, israel does what it can but is left with little choice but to cause collateral damage due to the cowardly tactics of its vicious protocols quoting enemies.I am of course always sorry to hear of children injured, I just wish the arabs cared more.

and human sheilds. If the Arabs care about their own children they should stop training them to die from birth. What sort of people use their children as human sheilds and suicide bombers? It's to Israel's credit that the so-called civilian casulities are as low as they are.

You wrote: "I did not note in your somewhat lenghty post a call for an end to the brutal ccupation." I SAY: I call for the end of the 'necessary' occupation, once there is a body that will govern the Palestinians according to Israeili morals and human rights, not those of other Arab countries. You wrote: "Did you not know that the Palestinian People have the right to oppose their Oppressors, and if you can claim the right to invoke, "collateral Damage",then so do they." I say: HAMAS TARGETED, TARGETS AND WILL TARGET CIVILLIANS. CANDIES ARE THROWN WHEN CIVILLIANS INCLUDING CHILDREN ARE MURDERED. IF ONLY FOR ONCE IN 100 YEARS THEY WOULD BAN THE TERRORIZING OF CIVILLIANS AND ONLY TARGET MILITARY. BUT YOU & I BOTH KNOW THAT TERRORIST MUST SATISFY THEIR BLOODLUST ON ISRAELI CIVILLIANS PRIMARILY. You wrote: "My suspicion is that you are a "pragmatist" for whom peace means keeping all Illegal Setlements and total capitulaton by the Palestinian People."

He bill stop taunting honest and civilist people,he's just bringing the truth for what it is to live in the occupaid land of Palestine.The reason mister Levy came to wright these is,because he can't no longer see the injustice and murdering of childeren and defenceless man and woman commited by your terror government. This man Levy Gideon is a brave and courages man i wish there were many Israelis who think and act that way. you deserve my deep respect M. Gideon Levy.

Mohamed Al Dura case was important when the anti-Israel propaganda had it that the child had been killed by Israel. Now, as everybody knows Israel did not kill him, the case is not important. To sum up, any case against Israel is important, no matter if it has been fabricated. Any case in favor of israel and against Israel's enemies is unimportant.

KUTW Those rights groups know alright,but prefer to look the other way.Do not trust them at all, and they are subsidized by the pals themselves..

Unfortunately the death of Mohammed al-Dura is no longer occupying us because of the tragic loss of a child, but because he has become a test-case for whose bullet went where....

It appears that you have stirred up a hornets nest and that your allies like Dutch Dirk, Clickfool, Hannah and Maureen Ann are besides themselves in gratitude. Great job.

Atta Typpesh, here is an extract of a New York Times article about the bone breaking incidents. I hope this will satisfy you: At the start of the uprising, Mr. Rabin attracted wide attention when he said that Israeli soldiers would use ''force, might and beatings'' to quash the Palestinian revolt. Mr. Rabin and senior military commanders have maintained that the beatings were allowed only while soldiers were trying to overpower and arrest Palestinians throwing rocks and firebombs. Once an arrest was made, they said, no further hitting or clubbing was permitted. But his account has been contradicted by testimony at the trial of one officer, Col. Yehuda Meir, who is being court-martialed for reportedly ordering his troops to arrest Arabs and then break their arms and legs. Soldiers testifying at Colonel Meir's trial said Mr. Rabin and other senior commanders told them privately that beatings should be used to punish Arabs known to be troublemakers. Lieut. Eldad Ben-Moshe, a company commander under Colonel Meir, testified in April that he was told by Colonel Meir to ''break the arms and legs'' of Arabs ''because the detention camps are full.'' Early this month another officer, identified only as Lieut. Col. Zvi, testified that in January 1988, Mr. Rabin ''told me to lash into them forcefully and beat them,'' without restricting the beatings in any way. In Parliament today, Mr. Rabin said, ''To the best of my memory, I never once said anywhere that bones should be broken.''