Mofaz's responsibility

The "Pals" should start by dismanttling the terrorist infrastructure.

Let me start by saying that I'm a staunch zionist and Israeli myself. Lots of the things that Israel does and that get criticized over the world (targeted killings, the fence, "moderate physical pressure") meet my complete approval. However, cutting down palestinian olive trees by jewish pogromchiks does not. And it IS the government responsibility to prevent this, and punish the perpetrators severely. The fact that palestinians crimes are much worse (terror organizations, individuals and the PA), does not absolve the Israelies from behaving in a civilized manner. If palestinian A is a suicude bomber, that does not make cutting the olive trees of palestinian B (who has nothing to do with A) justified. It is high time that the Israeli government will take it responsibility to the palestinians under its control seriously.

Sarah, I'm afraid Steve is completely right. The religious infrastructure is Israel just does not like mixed marriages, and anyone who wants one flies to Cyprus (the closest friendly country). This has been like that since the founding of the state (1948), accepted by Ben-Gurion as a compromise with the orthodox. Steve - as much as most Israelies (most of us are secular ...) loath the absence of civil marriages, practically it has no influence on day to day life. BTW - how did you two get to talk about marriage when the discussion is about rooted olive tress?

"She could definitely marry there. All she needs to do is go to a Catholic Church and get married." That's not entirely correct. To be married in the Catholic Church both parties have to be Catholic. "There simply aren`t civil marriages in Israel because the government doesn`t choose to get into the marriage business." Could it be to prevent mixed Jewish/Gentile marriages? But that can't be true can it? That would be religious discrimination. "However, civil marriages ARE recognized" If a mixed religion couple living in Israel wants to get married they must go to another country to do so. I sure can see the fairness in that.

The Jews have the right to own their homeland. They were there before the Muslim invaded it. They have stolen nothing. On the contrary, the Arabs want to rob them of their property.

The PRINCE will deny that he is an antiSemite, they all do. But he accuses the whole State of Israel for the criminal activities of (let us say) a hundred settlers. Mofaz demand to find the criminals do not count for anything as far as the PRINCE is concerned. "The Jews" and the "Jewish State" ot at least (most). A thousand are the State of Israel. The millions who desire peace are aliminated and the PRINCE is not an antisemite G-d forbid. No one is as blind as those who are one eyed the way of the PRINCE

Taba was just bargaining about some settlements on the border. The Camp David offer was great. It gave Arafat 98% of their demands, which he threw away to the dustbin because he was just interested in launching an intifada. A Saudi prince said that Arafat had committed a big crime against the "Pals" by rejected the Camp David offer.

"Given that most "pals" support terrorism, probably they also do." You seem to be prone to exaggeration. You really need to work on that character flaw.

Too bad I offer validity of claims, and all you do is make silly, unsubstantiated assertions. You make silly assertions about population centers. I show you photos of the population centers ( which are miniscule). You make silly assertions about bantustans being offered at Taba. I give you an interview with Dennis Ross where he states there were no bantustans, but contiguous territory. You say no map was presented, and therefore I can't prove that the territory was contiguous. However, the same logic can be used to refute your silly assertion. If there was no map showing bantustans, how could you assert that there were bantustans? You're being a hypocrite, plain and simple. You look at credible evidence as if it didn't exist in order to propagate your unsubstantiated myths. You say the Taba negotiations were ended by Sharon. HE WASN'T EVEN IN OFFICE!!!!! Get a basic clue here, Ernie. You keep making up a series of lies. How does that serve you? You lied about the population in Palestine. You lied about how long this people known as, "Palestinians" existed there. You lied about what was offered at Taba. You lied about how Taba ended. Why are you lying so much, Ernie?

"Far from doing so, the "Pals" celebrate every murder of israelis." Kim (with zero credibility), Do all Palestinians celebrate or just some of them?

Guerrilla warfare is one thing and terrorism is a different thing, at least such as it is understood in civilized countries. Don't tell me that the barbariasn who committed the atrocity in the Russian school were making guerrilla.

Jews in Haifa and Hebron were killed in great number. From what you say, it doesn't matter the 3,000 thousand or so people murdered in the World Trade Center, because the number is insignificant in terms of the current population of the US. Either you like it or not, Israel is a legitimate state and the "pals" have to come to terms with it.

You cannot marry in a Catholic church if you are not a Catholic. The situation you say can be solved. Sara is a Catholic married to an Israeli and they found a solution to marry. The fact that others do wrongs doesn't mean that the "Pals" have the right to murder others. And the fact is that Israel is critizised for things that are normal and legitimate in any country. Why do you single out Israel?

From what you say, it is legitimate for underdogs to commit any barbaric action. If we apply that "philosophy" it would be imposible for us to live in a society. This reminds me of the poor who steal something to eat in Muslim countries and have their hands cut off. Do you think it is fair? "Pals" should know themselves what to do, but since you ask me. They should give terrorism up and, if it is true they want a state, they have been given the occasion, they can do it in Gaza. Instead of doing it, they target and murder Israelis, not matter if they are granfathers or babies.

http://www.fmep.org/maps/all_maps.html From the Foundation for Middle East Peace.

The map order is: Bantustans - Camp David July 2000 Clinton instructions - No map - 31 December 2000 The Taba damn near solution map - January 2001 Sharon's Allon Rd (Bantustans again) - post March 2001 Sharon ended the negotiations. The Likud and Hamas made it known both were going to reject even Taba. The current escolation threatens everything. Only Hamas, IMHO a bit wiser now, can restore hope by renouncing true terrorism before the election - the Various Foreign Ministers (with license) are demanding it now.

"Taba, January 2001, is the closet to the final answer that exists." This would certainly be a realistic solution that many people on both sides could live with. The Road Map calls for terrorists to be disarmed as the first step in a solution. Coupling these two items could help form the solution to this problem. If so, people of good will on both sides would breathe a sigh of relief along with the rest of the world.

"Atlas - you cannot claim that what was discussed at Taba (Dec 2000?/Jan 2001?) was the same as at Camp David in July 2000." Prince Isn't the whole idea of this discussion to come up with a compromise agreement that both sides can live with? If you want to try to win debate points that is fine but it is not ultimately helpful. Does it really matter where agreements occur as long as they occur? Try to set aside your ego.

Atlas - you cannot claim that what was discussed at Taba (Dec 2000?/Jan 2001?) was the same as at Camp David in July 2000. You cannot claim that a map from Taba represents what was supposedly offered to the Palestinians at Camp David in July 2000. It is a nonsense to suggest that the Taba negotiations were the same as the Camp David negotiations. Progress was supposedly made between Camp David and Taba. Therefore, the two were different. And it also suggests that the Camp David 'offer' was not such a great 'offer', if a better one was 'made' at Taba. And the Palestinians did not call off the Taba talks; the Palestinians did not 'reject' the Taba 'offer'; THE TABA TALKS WERE CALLED OFF BY BARAK. Since Taba, israel has refused to negotiate.

In the Bible it is called an eye for an eye. I believe two eyes for an eye but that is me. Which version suits you better? You do not reward attrocities with kindness or just plain stupidity and giving anything to the ?palis? would be stupidity."""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Maybe you been reading the wrong Bible.An eye for an eye is fine by us but if we are to show compassion that is the highest reward.but why should pals show compassion towards the evil people who are killing them for decases and stole their land and lives?? Oh you have no other choice to give Pals what is their rightful birth right,The land is theirs before the europeans and the loonies migrated here. Maybe if you guys took the positive road and gave what you stole maybe you just might find peace,who knows

Just three days ago, a "Pal" detonated himself murdering several people and wounding others, a child among them. I would like to have your opinion about it and what crime is more serius from your point of view, the murder and wounds of those people or the uprooting of trees (in the case this had really happened)""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Anything criminal that is perpetuated against the miserable underdog is vitally serious.In this case the palestinians.Before i can reply to you,maybe you'd be kind enough to tell me what are palestinians to do?Israel kills their babies and kids in inexcusable,excessively violent raids,incursions and bombs from the skies. They only defend their lives,families and livelihood,not to mention their land from the agressors. Are you for real???Did you write (if it has actually happened??)which world do u live in?

Of course I accept the right for Israel to exist. I also see the entire Old City as the 3rd Temple belonging to Israel. Do you assign me only rhetoric and propaganda? Don't buy into SDHD's slander. The Taba negotiations were ended by Sharon. The "Deal" was never written out but, IMHO, Arafat should have forced it out even if both the ruling Likud and politically irresponcible Hamas, of the time, rejected it. We may be about to wittness another act of political irresponcibility if Hamas does not renounce true terrorism before the election. IMHO, Taba, January 2001, is the closet to the final answer that exists. After Taba, Sharon regressed to another Bantustan Map based on the Allon Road. God save the Queen!

"most of the land in what is now Israel was expropriaited rather than bought." potobac This is a false statement as roughly 70% was crown land under the British mandate and thus was passed onto the successor states which in this case were Israel, Jordan (West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza). ATLAS "A legal distinction without a difference. Was the land vacant, or were there people living on it and farming it on a long-term basis?" potobac Almost 60% of the State of Israel within the Green Line consisted of the Negev desert. That area is synonomous with the old Beersheba subdistrict. According to Palestinian sources (http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/Zionist_and_Palestinian_landownership.htm) 85% of that was public and other. Most of the Negev even today cannot be farmed. The map is somewhat misleading as it shows very little of the district concerned. It is a very effective geographical propaganda tool. ATLAS

What would have happened to your daughter is irrelevant to this discussion because the wrongs others do does not effect the validity and morality of our actions. As to my daughter, if she wanted to marry a Jew she would have married a Jew

I wish you had told me that before I finished the salad I had for supper.

notice how zionists 1. deny the tree cutting ever took place 2. change the subject to Palestinian resistance 3. link the two concepts of trees of innocent people to Palestinian resistance 4. Justify what they initially denied in the first place.

I never said Jews and gentiles can't marry; I just said they can't do so in Israel. Again, the fact that another group does bad things does not mean that Israel is therefore allowed to also do wrong.

The Nuremberg laws may not have been written the same, but in this instance they work out exactly the same way. If we are to speak of mental aberrations, how about a person who is so convinced of the absolute perfection of everything about them and their group that they believe that anyone criticizing can only be doing so as a result of mental disease?

I've got a better solution - set up a system like the one we have here where a person's religion is none of the state's business and all religions are treated equally the same.

It isn't what I don't get - it's what you don't get. It is wrong for a state to forbid people to marry because of religious differences. I grew up hearing how the Nuremberg laws were horrible because, among other things,they forbade gentiles from marrying Jews. Well, surprise, surprise! The Jews who inveighed against that set up exactly the same system.

Glad to see this insightful expose! It seems that journalism like this will have an impact on the public! Good work Ha'aretz! And keep that olive oil coming...it may not run cars but it sure is good for the chorlestoral!

A legal distinction without a difference. Was the land vacant, or were there people living on it and farming it on a long-term basis?

You're still dodging and weaving to avoid dealing with the truth. 1) While there were Jews who came to Palestine, bought land, and drained swamps, their number was quite low in regard to the current Jewish population. What percent of the land in Israel is expropriated from gentiles? 2) While there were Jews killed and driven out of Haifa and Hebron, the number is insignificant in terms of the current population of Israel, and would not make much difference in the current situation.

Stanley, How can you blame Jane for taking Palestinian tales with a grain of salt, when all she said about blood libel being alive and well in Palestinian mass media is true? The Mohammed al-Dura story in turn proved to be completely fake. Pro-palestinian sites attribute false quotes to Israeli leaders on a regular basis. Palestinian state propaganda organs never think twice before lying and some people in Haaretz, never think twice before printing their lies.

"I advocate the Taba map but prefer the territorial exchanges presented in the unofficial Geneva Accords. Dr Hannan Ashrawi`s miftah.org site has all the maps available for review." Ernie's quote Correct me if I am wrong but by the above Ernie, it seems that you are willing to accept the existence of the State of Israel. The Ashrawi map at your quoted site shows that the offer at Taba was of a contiguous area for Palestinians in the West Bank with a land exchange including territory within Israel proper. The big question here is: WHY WASN'T THIS CHANCE FOR A PALESTINIAN STATE ACCEPTED BY THE PALESTINIAN SIDE? Could it be that the Palestinian authorities could never bring themselves to accept Israel? By a map on their own site the Palestinians have disproved the assertion that their State would be a collection of Bantustans.

Guerilla warfare is not, and cannot be, conducted according to the rules of war. The whole point is that the underdogs are too weak to indulge in such luxuries.

Ernie, You're a real funny guy. You claim that there were cantons. Dennis Ross claims there were no cantons. You demand to see a map to show that there were no cantons. You claim there was no map. Yet, you claim there were cantons, but you are incapable of producing a map yourself. I guess what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander in your case. However, Dennis Ross was the lead negotiator between the two parties. Dennis Ross is credible. Ernie is not. Are you going to demand to see a map when you can't even produce one of your own to support your assertion? There were several eyewitnesses to the negotiation. Ross was one of them. No cantons.

Widow's trees threaten Israeli security Thursday 17 February 2005, 2:07 Makka Time, 23:07 GMT Israel will clear a grove close to Defence Minister Mofaz's home Israel's Supreme Court has sanctioned the uprooting of a Palestinian woman's citrus grove on the grounds that it impedes security for Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz's home. Mofaz lives in Kochav Yair, an upscale town on the Israeli side of the "Green Line" with the West Bank. Zuhriyya Hasan Murshid, 72, has orange, tangerine and lemon trees just 25m from the minister's property. After the military issued an order in September to uproot the trees for security reasons, Murshid filed an appeal with the high court. At the time, she said: "Why does Mofaz build his house near my land, and then decide to take away my land? If he doesn't like it, he can move."

Barak called off the negotiations because the intifada (bombings) had already started and the Israelis decided that they were not going to conduct funerals during the day and negotiate at night. Any govt would have called off negotiations at that point. I've read accounts of Camp David and Taba from both sides; Malley's, Clinton's Ross's, Remnicks synopsis in the New Yorker, and I buy Clinton's analysis (he blamed Arafat) and Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia (who was indirectly involved and aware of all the proposals) who said Arafat's rejection was criminal.

when he chopped his palestinians' neighbors trees down to get a better view from his house. This was the signal to proceed.

I will try to get hold of the book you mention, but if you are referring to a map from 2001, I guess that is going to be different (as Ernie says at 267) to Camp David in July 2000. What I have read tells me that progress was made at Taba, but that Barak called off the negotiations; not Arafat. There may well have been israeli elections looming, but the Palestinians did not call off the negotiations - israel did, and israel has refused to negotiate since.

The Taba map was prapare in then wanning days of Barak. Sharon and the Likud took over in March 2001 and rejected Taba. Instead they offered an old Allon Road plan that does not include the Jordan Valley ... worse than the Bantustan map only made contiguious by bridges and tunnels. I advocate the Taba map but prefer the territorial exchanges presented in the unofficial Geneva Accords. Dr Hannan Ashrawi's miftah.org site has all the maps available for review.

It has been an active day for faked identities. Jane, you should look at #247, for you have been hit as well. An educated, cultured, and logical thinker such as you could never have claimed that the olive tree incidents did not occur.

"Join the lobby for civil marriages - that`s a good cause." I can't. I'm not an Israeli citizen...Don;t want to get into politics anyway.

I read the article and also read the responses fron right to left. Curiously at the end was nothing left from the begining. I wish in this New Year that every comflict will start like that and will finish like that as well. Salud to the good Israelis , salud to the good Palestinians. Peace for every one.

From the postings here who would ever have guessed that Palestinians love trees more than their bomb belts? What a suprise. Are there Fatah and Hamas trees? Will Amira Hass be doing a touching article on the impact of roadblocks on the trees? Has "the occupation" stunted their growth? On another note please give Kim her own opinion column, she is more versatile and articulate than some of your writers. Names I will not mention.

You are referring to what is called the Taba map compiled after Camp David in accordance with Clinton's 31 December 2000 instructions.

". . . "non-lethal" except to the people who`ve been killed by them . . ." All 5 of them, eh? Go stalk someone who cares.

Misrepresenting history? Like your 150,000? Or did you miss the facts found on that one yesterday. I stand by my words and I don't attempt to repeat lies so often that some actua;;y start to believe it. Don't reference some FOX News story. Show me the deal! It was never written, my friend. I don't care what you THINK it was.

Ishmael and Isaac, Shame on you two for fighting so much. This sibling rivalry is getting out of control! Your mothers, Hagar and Sarah are most upset. Now be good boys and settle this problem. Ishmael, you go to Gaza and Isaac, you go to Tel Aviv. Don't make me have to come down and scold you again!

try coming to Toronto if you want to meet rude people. I have been to Israel many times, I have met both, very nice Israelis and very rude. Is it any different elsewhere, i doubt it. (the nicest ones are the falashas) shalom

When the time comes your daughter will find her own solution. She or her partner may want to convert, if not they will do as all mixed couple do here or anywhere else. Join the lobby for civil marriages - that's a good cause.

I have lived in Israel for over 35 years and try to avoid going to Supersol on a Friday morning. Prefer going to the Nachlat Biyamin market in Tel Aviv midweek. Sorry about all those things that upset you. I am not American but when I visited the US and enterd stores, besides the smiley "have a nice day" I found their service far more apathetic and rude than Israelis. But I don't paint everyone with the same brush (your words), I take each individual at face value and again, find Israelis generally friendly and helpful. Not that I haven't had brushes with people, in the street, in the workplace, etc. Normal things. I agree, Israeli tourists tend to be unpopular in certain places abroad, as I said, they can be brash and uncouth and they are not strong in manners. This does not make for bad people and my husband and I have never felt ashamed of being Israeli abroad. I have also never sufferd rejection for being Israeli. I suppose that it often happens that people radiate certain vibes and the environment responds accordingly. That's my experience anyway.

Sara: "Perhaps I don`t feel the need to shove religion down my daughter`s throat. If she wants to marry a Jew or a Muslim, so be it. Either of these religions will not allow her to marry within their confines." So, is the Catholic church disriminating against a Jew because it won't marry her to a Jew? Is a mosque discriminating against her if it won't marry her to a Muslim? Or is it just the government and Judaism that disriminates against her because it won't marry her to a Jew?

SDHD: ""She could definitely marry there. All she needs to do is go to a Catholic Church and get married." Sara: "And what if she wants to marry a Jew?" And what if the Jew wants to marry her? Is the Jew disriminated against? "Civil marriages are recognized, but not performed in Israel. I know. I went to Cyprus to marry my husband, which is what many of the secular Jews do to avoid rabbis." Good. Then you were able to get married and have it recognized. That doesn't mean Israel disriminates against non-Jews because the government isn't in the marriage business. Making the assertion that your daughter is disriminated against by Israel, because the government doesn't perform civil marriages is false and misleading.

You missed the whole Sara exercise as well as my replies to her. She was making a point. I have a good idea of what that point is, but on the surface it would sound as if she is just trying to demonize the Jews (amongst whom she is living?) She used to post as Sara fom Somewhere and her posts were extremely anti Semitic. If she is in fact married to an Israeli Jew I would advise him to send her packing and pronto (11th commandment and all)

You know what, you're right. I never thought about the fact that any secular Jews are in the same position. At least I have good stories for my daughter when she's older and we move back to the US.

Prince: "SDHD: can you show me a map of the supposed contiguous area offered at Camp David?" You mean, you are incapable of understanding language during negotations? If there was no map, there was no offer? Dennis Ross presented a map at the interview in the link I posted. Do you think you can see the map in reading a transcript?

Perhaps I don't feel the need to shove religion down my daughter's throat. If she wants to marry a Jew or a Muslim, so be it. Either of these religions will not allow her to marry within their confines.

"You said in a post to me that you were married to an Israeli" And? I'm an American and my husband holds dual citizenship.

"She could definitely marry there. All she needs to do is go to a Catholic Church and get married." And what if she wants to marry a Jew? Civil marriages are recognized, but not performed in Israel. I know. I went to Cyprus to marry my husband, which is what many of the secular Jews do to avoid rabbis.

"You seem to regard yourself as morally superior tomost Israelis." Then you would be wrong. I simply expect people of the torah to follow the torah... "Yes, israelis can be rude, uncouth and impatient, but there are also many things about Israel and Israelis that are admirable. No Israeli that I have been polite to has ever treated rudely." I'd like to meet them. When I have people asking me if I'm married because I'm heavily pregnant and then knocking me down to get in line before me, I tend to see the worst. And then there was the young man on the motorcycle who burnt me with his muffler because I had the temerity to stand on the sidewalk when he wanted to bring his moto on it in order to avoid traffic. Also, there are things about any people that are admirable. The point I was attempting to make was that pro-Israel people never seem to admit that not all Israelis are great people. "I do know however that some Israelis consider Anglo-Saxons who come here and try to teach them how to behave as particularly irritating." Why do you assume that I tell Israelis how rude they are? My mother raised me better than that. Are you Israeli? If you are not, then you shouldn't speak for them. I don't go around saying that all Americans are for or against things. I talk about myself. "They are creative and ambitious, achievement driven and generally open to what the world has to offer. They travel and learn and I have always found them to be generally friendly and cooperative." Then you definitely have never been in the Supersol on a Friday morning. Even my Israeli husband admits they have a poor reputation around the world. When we travel, he never uses Hebrew.

When the Arabs expell Jews, and confiscate their property - no one speaks out. When the Arabs masacare Jews - again there is little human cry for justice. NOW THIS GROUP OF EGYPTIANS-SYRIANS-JORDANIANS expect us to buy into the " poor opressed Palestinian Non-sense" - and give then a country-FINE YOU WANT A PALESTINE - GO BACK TO JORDAN ETC. - LEAVE ISRAEL -if you are so mistreated.

"And do you teach her killing Jews is wrong or right?" I do not look at people based on their religion. And when I was at church on last time, the priest's homily was about how we need to look out for others instead of focusing on ourselves. I visit a school in Bethlehem and they must do a pretty good job of hiding their anti-westerner stuff because I don't hear it. But that's right, all Arabs are great at lying. That's like saying all Jews are good at math. You've never met my husband then. Also, if I get blown up on the 29, then people like you will have to start protesting my death, right? Finally, if you worry, wherever you are about "jihadists," then you must be the most paranoid person on earth. At least in Israel, I have a reason to be wary. Where exactly are you from? I notice you never answer that question. It's probably because you live in some safe place where nothing happens and you actually think you make a difference by semonizing on this website. I read these because for the most part because it amuses me to see all the armchair politicians. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is?

Hi BM Good for you well done! You certainly sent him Packing! Didn't dare come back did he! Shalom ve la Briyut S

"My daughter is Catholic because I am which means even though she lives here in Israel, she could never marry here." - Sara I am not absolutely certain of the legal situation in Israel, but I believe the following is correct. People in Israel are divided into a few officially recognized religious communities. Catholics form such a community. Members of the community are married by religious functionaries of that community. The trouble begins when for whatever reason, the community refuses to carry out the marriage. For example, if Sara's daughter wants to marry an Israeli Jew who refuses to convert to catholicism, they may not be able to marry in Israel. Likewise, a Jewish Kohen man cannot marry a divorce Jewish woman because the rabbis refuse to marry them. (It is against Halakhic law.) In such cases, many Israelis have gone to Cyprus to obtain Civil Marriage there. A wall known case was that of Supreme Court Justice Haim Cohen, who went to Cyprus to get married. (Israel recognizes marriages that are legal where they are performed.) Of course the natural solution would be to allow civil marriages in Israel. I don't see the difference in principle between recognizing a marriage held abroad vs. a civil marriage performed by an Israeli clerk. I hope the day comes when Church and State are separate in Israel In any case, Sara's daughter's problem is not related to any "second class" citizenship in Israel. All citizens suffer equally from the consequences of the present law.

Where is the outrage over Jewish lives, destruction of property, and the cost to our society of Palestinians blowing themselves up on our buses and in our shops? Besides the supposed destruction of the trees increasingly sounds like another Palestinian myth much like the matza made out of Muslim children and the Jenine doozie.

Please tell me what would happen if she wanted to marry an Arab. Please tell me what would happen if my Jewsih daughter wanted to marry a Moslem and live with him in Jordan or Saudi Arabia. Please tell me what would happen if I wanted to buy a holiday apartment in Aqaba. Please tell me what would happen if your daughter wanted to marry a Jew.

The critical softener Diethylhexylphthalat (DEHP) has been found by european scientist in olive oils: this DEHP has proven cancer producing effect. In addition the substance intervenes in the hormone system and will leave consumers childless. Around 75 milligramm DEHP are contained per kilogram olive oil. To a 60 kilogram heavy human three milligramm per day is the tolerable maximum limit by toxicologists. This quantity it reached already with two to three spoon full of olive oil. With the softener the oil offends against the food act and should not land in the foodmarkets' shelves.

For starters Jews and non-jews can marry with one another. This doesn't happen among Muslims. Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim men and if they do or want to, they are murdered in honor crimes. So your comparison to the Nuremberg Laws should have been made to what happens among Muslims.

are you trying to find similarities between Israel/Jewish practices and the third reich? What exactly is your point? whom did the Nuremburg Laws apply to? Did they single out anyone? What are you harping on?

There are Jews married to Catholics or other kind of Christians. This was not exactly the procedure in the Third Reich under the Nuremberg Laws. Read those laws and you'll now what they were about. Here we go again calling the Jews Nazis, a manner of anti-Semitism, indeed. Psychiatrists say that anti-Semitism is a symptom of a very serious mental illness. You should go to the doctor as soon as possible.

Then she can convert to Judaism or if you think that this will create one more Jew you have to take care of he can be baptized.

Jews, a people who have maintained a distinct cultural identity originally based on the idea of a covenant, or special relationship, with God. The Jewish people are among the oldest of the many peoples known to history. Their origins date back at least 3,000 years, and perhaps even further. During this lengthy period Jews have settled in all parts of the world and have had an impact on many civilizations. The Jewish religion, Judaism, has exerted influence far beyond its own adherents. Christianity grew out of Judaism, and Islam accepted many of the traditions and practices of Judaism. Knowledge of the history of the Jews and their culture contributes to a fuller understanding of the history of the Western world and its spiritual life.

What's your hang up Potomac. So if she wants to marry a Jew and the Jewish guy wants to marry her they can fly to Cyprus, get married and come back to Israel and live happily ever after. Her mother did it, didn't she. What the hell are you trying to prove? There are no civil marriages in Israel and there is a lot of lobbying here to introduce it. Even Jewish couples are either flying to Cyprus or writing up legal partnership contracts instead of going for a religious marriage ceremony. What the hell are you on about. Non-Jews cannot marry in a synagogue anywhere. Christians in Israel can marry in a church. What don't you get?

Off course she can get married but in the Church. She will not be able to marry according to Jewish religious ceremony. Only atheists will find it difficult to get married in Israel. As far as I understand no Church will wed anybody unless he/she belongs to it. In Canada where I live your kids will not be admitted to Catholic school unless they or their parents are Catholics.

Suppose she wants to marry a Jew? I understand that she could leave the country to get married, but I would point out that this was exactly the procedure necessary in the Third Reich under the Nuremberg Laws.

"most of the land in what is now Israel was expropriaited rather than bought." This is a false statement as roughly 70% was crown land under the British mandate and thus was passed onto the successor states which in this case were Israel, Jordan (West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza).

Unless she wants to marry a Jew.

1) There have been Jews living there and when they bought lands nobody, not even the Arabs, protested because everybody knew they were not stealing. They were sold the worst land, which the Arabs didn't want, because it was desert or marshy, where you caught malaria. They drained it and make it a garden, so the Arabs came there to work, and now those Arabs say the land is theirs. There could have been more Jews, had not the Arabs killed them, in Haiffa, Hebron and other places. 2) It is a fact that most Arabs living in Israel went away during the war. I can see no problem in having a state for Jews and other for Arabs. something similar has been made in other places. India and Pakistan were separated so Pakistan was a Muslim country. Many people were displace from one side to the other. And more recently it has been done in the former Yugoslavia, when it was partitioned.

1) Israel DOES NOT have those tactics at its disposal. If it were to use them,the US and EU would boycott it. Without US subsidies, and US and EU trade, Israel woould fold like a deck of cards. 2) You claim the Palestinians have other tactics available to them. If they were to try to use sweet reason (or any other nonviolent tactic), is there the sightest chance that Israel would pay any attention to them? Either they use violence or they roll over and play dead (which you would prefer). When you drive people into a corner, you force them to use whatever is available (and, by the way, I'm sure they couldn't care less what I or any other American thinks).

Chanah, the idf are doing a pretty good job of killing innocent Palestinians. LtCol Eitan Ronel, veteran of 1973 and Lebanon wars, Jan 2004: "I saw ... the blind eye that was turned to soldiers' gunfire on unarmed Palestinian civilians". The role of the settlers is not to go around shooting Palestinians - although they have done this. Their role is to occupy Palestinian land; more and more Palestinian land. The zionist philosophy: what used to be yours is now mine; what is still yours now will be mine one day.

"she could nevertheless marry in a Catholic Church. So there`s no problem, is there?" No problem. You are right. The only problem is that she wants to critizise Israel. If she had no problem living in israel and marrying an Israeli, what's the problem for her daughter?

wrong

1) I am afraid you are mistaken, because the "gentiles" imprisoned by Israel are not imprisoned for being "gentiles" but for being terrorists. 2) As for the "Pals" murdereing Israelis without charges, you justify them, I see. To sum up, what you want is that Israel gives itself to the terrorists. From what I know, all the Israeli citizens are equal before the law. 3) Guerrilla war is not terrorism, because they have to make war according to the laws of war, the same as any army.

1) Although there have always been Jews living in what is now Israel, their numbers and percentage of the population were quite small. While they did buy some land, the fact remains that most of the land in what is now Israel was expropriaited rather than bought. 2) Even Israeli history textbooks admit that Palestinians were deliberately driven out to tilt the Jew/gentile balance of the population in the Jewish favor. Or shall we assume that Israeli history textbooks are tissues of fiction put out by antisemites? 3) I have a great deal of sympathy for their refusing the very badly slanted offers made to them by Israel. In my opinion,they should have the same right of return as Jews do, and should when citizens have the same legal position as Jews have in the US

If your looking for a good map of what Arafat turned down on behalf of his people get the book "Bad News from Israel" by Greg Philo and Mike Berry of the Glasgow University Media Group. They have the Final Status map of January 2001 right at the start of the book. It clearly shows the proposed Palestinian State with fully contiguous territory in the West Bank. Israel was to have annexed a few small parcels where the Jewish population was in the majority. Most observers regard this as a just territorial solution. However, a word of warning. Although the authors purport to give the impression of impartiality, the book is far from even handed. It is totally biased in favour of the Palestinian narrative. It was even heartily endorsed by John Pilger in the New Statesman. On that basis, I think the map might be considered as "kosher" - even for you.

Why are you hanging around an Israeli/Jewish site and showing your stupidity, When you could be happy reading your "Al Jazeera".....GO AWAY AND STAY AWAY. Your messages full of hate do not deserve a response

Does it shock you that a Jew marry a gentile? You wil probably feel comforted to know that under the Nuremberg Laws such marriages was forbidden there also.

1) The Palestinians are not my people. As far as I am concerned, there are two kinds of people in the world - Americans and "them f***ers". It is interesting that you aren't able to imagine anyone being neutral in this issue,and not favoring either party. 2) In accusing me of trying to intellectualize the issue, you are admitting that you can't intellectually support your position. As far as I can see, the intellectual basis of your position is that because other people in other places at other times did bad things to Jewish people, Jews are exempt from the rules they espouse for others.

Why don't you ask the Palestinians to show you a map of the region they rejected? Ooops! Then they would have to show you one of their maps - where Israel doesn't even feature becasue Israel does not exisit, right? Why do all the Israel bashers get so upset when someone says that there never was a country called Palestine. There is a country called Israel - a legit 58 year country. And it doesn't even appear on the map in the PA! How about that!

Well Sara complained that her daughter cannot marry in Israel because she is Catholic. I told her she could nevertheless marry in a Catholic Church. So there's no problem, is there?

why cry over olive trees? they can be planted again. A life lost is lost forever. EXPOSE THE MYTH OF THE PALESTINIAN WWW.SHOEBAT.COM

"Somebody is posting under other contributors` names. I have also seen a false S. " - Kim up the wall And doing enough of it to not have time to post under their usual handle. Anyone heard from the "unwise one" today?

I should like to thank the Israeli people for planting me and my type over the years. We have prospered and had a great partnership with humans in the area. My Eucalytus cousins have dried up swampy lands and helped create some of the best farmland in the entire middle east.

1) Israel picks up people wilth no charge (as long as they are gentile), tortures them, and keeps them in punishment camps until it is ready to release them. Wouldn't you say there are interesting similarities between this and the KGB? 2) As to Palestinians killing Israelis without charges, unfortunately that is the only way they can get anyone to pay attention to the injustices done them. Personally I would prefer Israel allow exiles to return, give back all expropriated property, and change its laws making everyone equal before the law (as in the US). 3) Guerilla war IS terrorism (if you are the occupier)

When was the last time a settler shot a Palestinian in a drive-by shooting or strapped a belt to himself and blew himself up in a crowded Palestinian market? Settlers who vandalize Palestinain property are just that - vandals, and they should be punished severely for their actions. But please on't compare them to terrorists whose aim is to kill as many Israelis as possible.

Madam-your defence of the Arab man is not to be believed. You must be from somewhere on Mars. I live in Canada and last time I checked it was not a Third World Country although with all the "refugees aka terrorists" being let in it may be in the not too distant future.Even in canada the Muslim women are treated like the proverbial Sh.t. If you are not Zionist what are you doing in Israel. You obviously are not Israeli. And why do you always point out that you live in Raanana. Is there some significance to that? My wife is Israeli and Jewish and proud of both. I am from Poland and Jewish and proud of being Jewish. You seem to be a floater and proud of nothing.I pity you.

Exactly, and you have proved my point: "As to Israel using the tactics it would want to use,..." You mean the tactics it has at its disposal - your words not mine.....nobody said anything about WANTING to use.Terrorists use those tactics because they want to. "....it is fortunately not possible because the rest of the world would not tolerate it ..." Right, but people like you are tolerating terrorist tactics like suicide bombings that kill innocent civilians indiscriminately. You for some reason have no reason to fear the wrath of the world because there are many like you who condone this behaviour. It is not their only tactic, it is thier preferred tactic. It turns them into heroes becasue people like you condone it. It is their first, and not last resort. Either you understand this or not, I don't really care.

SDHD - if the Palestinians were offered a specific, contiguous area at Camp David, why is there no representation (eg, a map) of that area on the web site of the israeli ministry of foreign affairs? If the offer was such a good one, wouldn't the web site show a map? How simple would that be? Wouldn't the israelis want to show the world the evidence of this great offer, the evidence that israel wants peace? Two years ago I spent hours poring over that web site and there was no map. I found two incredibly short references to Camp David: "During the summit, israel expressed its willingness to make far-reaching and unprecedented compromises" - but what were these compromises? They are not mentioned. The only other mention is the one that you refer to: Dennis Ross denying that the WB would have been divided into bantustans and not contiguous. I won't be taking Dennis Ross's word for anything. As I said, where is the evidence? Why is Camp David scarcely mentioned on that web site, if the supposed offer was so magnificent?

And nobody can marry in a Catholic church unless s/he is a Catholic. As far as I know, it is the same for the other Christian Churches. [canción]

1) There were always Jews living in what is now Israel, therein they were locals. Besides the Jews bought land. As for the Arabs who left Israel during the war, why didn't they stay' They went away on their own accord. In 1949, in the course of peace talks with the Arab countries, Israel offered to take in 100 thousand people or to give them compensations for their property. The Arab countries rejected it. 2) It is true that the "pals" had no country. Nobody says they shouldn't. The fact remains that they have always rejected it, in 1947, in 1993, in 2000, and we'll see what they are able to do in Gaza now.

SDHD: can you show me a map of the supposed contiguous area offered at Camp David?

Sorry I took you seriously, when you were really playing around. On rereading #90 and your later posts, I think I now know where you are coming from, and it's not the radical right. For those of us who are rather slow, it would be nice if you let us know early on in your posts that you are not the "real" Ben Gurion. Thanks.

Does anyone wonder why some Palestinians "hate" Israel? Not because Israel is "Jewish" but because of the actions that these settlers commit in the name of Israel. When I am sure that Israelis living within Tel Aviv have no clue what is going on in their name! It is a shame, because the settlers claim to be better then Hamas, or other terrorist organizations, yet they commit terror(not all of them) all the time? Who are the terrorist??? (Both!)

"My daughter is Catholic because I am which means even though she lives here in Israel, she could never marry here." You said in a post to me that you were married to an Israeli.

I haven't see any action concerning crimes against Jews taken by the Palestinains. These crimes are in fact not considered crimes by your people - they are in fact considered "mitzvot" - good deeds, and the perpetrators are celebrated, lauded and generally treated as heroes - having streets, schools and soccer clubs named after them. Potomac, with all your attempt to intellectualize the situation - I realy don't think you should demand of tohers what you yourself are not prepared to take responsibility for. There is a lot of bad stuff going on between our peoples. You should be working to improve your lot and not telling the other how to behave. That;s what everyone should be doing, including people like Khaled et. al. All they do however is spurt lies and abuse with a lot of verbal drivel. I will not accept the contention that the Palestinians can do nothing until the proverbial "end of the occupation". That is a cop out. WHatever is done should be done for yourselves more than for the other side. Why are Kassams still flying across the Gazan border. Soon we will hear that it is because of the buffer zone. I mean that is very typically Palestinian kind of logic. One of the posters here said that the base issue between Israel and Palestininas is the cutting down of olive tres. I mean really! I am proud of my country and its achievements. I truly believe that we can live side by side in two states to the mutual benefit of all. What I am not prepared to do is answer trick questions posed to prove silly points (Prince) or to listen to a constant repetition of lies about Israelis that have long ago proven false. This stupid game of one-upmanship gets one nowhere fast. It's enough. The Palestinians have to decide whether they want a state or if they want Israel. If they want a state next to Israel that is fine. If they want Israel I am not interested in even talking. So far they have shown that this is in fact what they want. Otherwise they would be seeking solutions and proposing peace plans. Instead they are spending fortunes on developing longer-range Kassams to hit deeper into Israel's cities and sending brainwashed suicide bombers to wreak havoc. These are non-solutions. In fact the more I ses of this instead of the other kind of behaviour, I feel that Israel really does not have to answer to all your accusations (right or wrong) about injustices and inconveniences suffered by the Palestinians.

enjoy your posts. hope you are able to become politically active. most my family and friends in israel have similar views. i find it refreshing to visit israel and see family that just enjoy living as israelis with no messages, no missions, no feelings of persecution and no hate against others, no jelousy, just regular nice people with careers, wonderfull circles of friends and hopes for their children. just regular citizens trying to build their own lives. they deseve a peacefull israel.

1) Most of Israel is property expropriated from locals living there in 1948. 2) That canard that Palestinians had no country deserves to be retired. Until 1776 the Americans had no countryk, and until 1948 Israelis had no country. So what?

Of course she can marry here. She cannot however marry in a Jewish religious ceremony. She could however marry in a Church, which is where I presume a Catholic would want to marry. Gentiles cannot marry in a Jewish marriage service or synagogue anywhere in the world.

Of course you do.

My reaction has nothing to do with being in NYC, except that here we live as equals and I don't like the idea of people being designated for inferior treatment because of their religion. How come you keep on harping on other people's crimes? Do you think that excuses yours?

Leaving aside the fact that designating Israel a Jewish state inherently makes everyone not Jewish a second-class citizen, consider the Law of the Return, and ask yourself how many Jews have been held in administrative detention, tortured by the government, or had their property expropriated?

"The designation of second-class citizenship to gentiles. You can`t possibly deny that Jews in Israel have an unequal status with gentiles." "Too right. My daughter is Catholic because I am which means even though she lives here in Israel, she could never marry here." She could definitely marry there. All she needs to do is go to a Catholic Church and get married. There simply aren't civil marriages in Israel because the government doesn't choose to get into the marriage business. However, civil marriages ARE recognized, and the parties aren't treated unequally, are they?

I neither said or implied that there are too many Jews in NYC or that they have too much power. You are really clutching at straws - it says a lot about the moral bankruptcy of your position that you do not answer the points I raise, but instead resort to ad hominem attacks.

Ernie: "The Qassam (non-lethal use)" . . . "non-lethal" except to the people who've been killed by them . . . and POTENTIALLY lethal to all those nearby when they land.

Ernie: "BTW, only one peace-plan was presented to Arafat. The Bantustan Plan which any sober leader would have rejected." http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,50830,00.html Dennis Ross: "So the Palestinians would have in the West Bank an area that was contiguous. Those who say there were cantons, completely untrue. It was contiguous." Stop misrepresenting history. You don't know what you are talking about.

First, Palestinians are not killing Jews for spite; the are doing so because that is the only way they can get Israel to pay attention to them. If they didn't use such tactics, is there the slightest chance that Israel would redress their grievances? As to saying that killing Jews is a worse crime, that is your way of not admitting that what Jews are doing is also a crime, and should be equally condemned.

MY question for all jews:WHY DO YOU FEEL YOU HAVE TO JUSTIFY THE DEFENSE OF YOUR COUNTRY TO YOUR FOES HELL BENT ON YOUR DESTRUCTION? WHY DO YOU NOT JUST SIMPLY GO AND DO TO THEM AS THEY DO TO YOU - AND ELIMINATE THEM PERMANENTLY? WHY DO YOU THINK JEWISH BLOOD IS CHEAP AND ARAB BLOOD MUST BE PRESERVED(...there are all those INNOCENT palestininas...lol..but where are they really since 80% support terror...bah... statistics one may say,as if it is 80% then it is really 100%) - IN LIGHT OF WHAT IS GOING ON ON THIS BOARD, YOUR ENEMIES ARE CLEARLY DEMARKED ALREADY AND THEY PLOT TO COMMIT GENOCIDE ON YOU ANY TIME THEY WILL BE ABLE TO DO SO?

Herrenvolk is the term the NSDAP used to describe the Germans. The commonality between your views and theirs is startling. As to Israel using the tactics it would want to use, it is fortunately not possible because the rest of the world would not tolerate it, and Israel, like Humpty Dumpty, would come tumbling down. Let's be honest, though - that's the only reason Israel has not done so.

Israel doesn't send gentiles to the gulag or enjails them just because they are gentiles. Israel persecutes terrorists, which is not the same case. And what can you tell of the "Pals" murdering Israelis with no charges? "As to the guy who killed himself, ask yourself - granting the resources available to him, what better tactic could he have used to get Israel to listen? " The guy can kill himself for what I care. But he killed himself to kill others. You see? You are justifying him. They don't make guerrilla war but terrorism.

I'm surprised it has taken so long for someone to raise the issue of blood libel; it is usually an instant reaction when someone criticizes a Jew. Unfortunately, crimes against your ancestors do not give you license to commit other crimes. As to the issue of gentiles being involved, even you can't (I hope) maintain that the crimes against Palestinian farmers would have been instantly dealt with if they were crimes committed against Jews. Equal justice means that crimes by Jews are prosecuted just as vigorously as crimes against Jews.

You seem to regard yourself as morally superior tomost Israelis. Got news for you Sarah - I think you are barking up the wrong tree here. Yes, israelis can be rude, uncouth and impatient, but there are also many things about Israel and Israelis that are admirable. No Israeli that I have been polite to has ever treated rudely. I do know however that some Israelis consider Anglo-Saxons who come here and try to teach them how to behave as particularly irritating. They are creative and ambitious, achievement driven and generally open to what the world has to offer. They travel and learn and I have always found them to be generally friendly and cooperative. Despite overwhelming hardships Israel has achieved much. I was also part of the educational system for 15 years and never once did I encounter official prejudice nor anything other than aspirations towards tolerance, respect and acceptance. I have no doubt that the post-Oslo years and the intifada and the current war imposed on Israel has a lot the current Israeli distrust of Palestinians and their true intentions. It is not easy to be totally fair or civil towards the same people one feels one needs protection from. So perhaps you should take your own advice and not paint an entire people with one brush.

If has to do with the article in the following manner. It is said that some Jews uprooted "Pal" trees. We have here the usual anti-Israel contributors claiming this is a big crime against the "Pals". I say I cannot understand the fuss, mainly coming for people who always justifies the uprooting of people from live by the "Pals", and that, even if it was true that the trees were uprooted by Jews, I can understand those Jews are fed up with a people who supports the terrorists who are murdering Israelis. [protección]

Whatever you are a "princ" of, here is MY reply as a NON_JEW to your seditious questions to jews:THE IDF SHOULD BE INSTRUCTED TO DEFFEND ISRAELIS AND NOT ARABS HELL BENT OD ISRAEL'S DESTRUCTION!THAT IS THE ONLY ROLE OF THE IDF! In case your cranium is a bit restricted, ANY COUNTRY which maintains its ARMED FORCES will do so TO PROTECT ITS OWN INTERESTS AND NOT THAT OF ITS FOES! I think the answer you seek is to criminalize the feeble attempts that corrupt Sharon and his cronies are doing to look good in the eyes of their American masters, and in a planned way(yes we all know there are those think-tanks who plan the demise of the JEWISH STATE) they are proceeding to demolish the Jewish State.Sharon IS AN OLD CORRUPT AND FEEBLE MAN NOW and every jew could see that IF THEY WISHED TO SEE IT REALLY!THOSE HEART ATTACKS ARE REALLY AN INDICATIONS OF A LOT MORE THAN A "TINY" HOLE IN THE HEART! They are more AN INDICATION OF A BIG HOLE IN THE HEAD!The question is:WILL YOU JEWS EVER DECIDE TO BE SMART NOW? TODAY AND NOT TOMORROW! Compared to that important question, your opinions, "PRINC", do not matter the least!For a life of me I do not even know why these JEWS ever even argue with you at all!? You have to be eliminated from the life of jews really not nurtured, but since I AM NOT A JEW, I can afford to argue with you better on their behalf, if that even will matter in that ultimately very corrupt but very beautiful country!

You say you take the bus every day and so are at risk. Well, if one day a terrorists blows up the bus with you inside, will you justify it? I also take the bus almost on a daily basis and I cannot help but think what if one of those jihadists blows himself up on the bus, because they are everywhere, as you must know. You seem concerned about what is taught to children. Do you protest the education in the PA, the Hamas summer camps and the sermons by your clerics? You "Pal" supporters always justify the terror attacks and understand the terrorists, who murder people. Why cannot I understand that Jews can be mad to so murderous people and cut off a couple of branches from a tree and even uproot it? So you say you teach your daughter killing people is wrong. On, yeah. And do you teach her killing Jews is wrong or right?

After considerable research I have come to the shocking conclusion that Khalid is a Mossad agent and a Jewish settler. The full proof will take more than the word limits allowed by Ha?aretz.; however, I?m listing a few points for the laymen who are not as familiar with the workings of the Mossad and those devious Jews. 1- Khalid uses many aliases some of which actually require someone with a primary school education to discover. Only the Mossad has the experience and training to concoct so many aliases. 2- Khalid?s lies are so sophisticated and devious that they are well beyond the capability of Arabs. Surely only Jews are capable of creating such lies as hundred of thousands of Palestinians killed by Israel when we all know that the. Palestinians killed by Jews in the past hundred years of conflict number less that 7,000. 3- Khalid changes history and reshapes it as though it is made from clay. Every Muslim knows that Jews are the ones who changed their Torah and therefore have experience in changing books and facts. 4- Khalid is very knowledgeable about the Talmud and Judaism and seems to have a personal knowledge of the thinking of Jewish Rabbis. Since everyone knows that Talmud is a secretive and diabolical text that Jews take many years to teach their children, Khalid must be the son of a Jewish rabbi. 5- Last but not least whenever we want to uncover a crime we have to see who is going to benefit from it. Since Khalid?s outrageous lies make the Arabs look bad then he must be a Jewish settler.

I used to respect your posts. Disagreed with alot of what you wrote, but thought you tried, in the best way you could, to be fair minded. There has been a lot of nonsense and stupidity written on this site but calling Qassam attacks "non-lethal" may win the award the nonsense and stupidity award. Makes me reconsider all your other posts. By the way, quibling over "concepts" vs "presented" is silly. They were in a negotiation.

Oh, yes, they do have. You only have to observe the pro-"Pal" contributors and scratch the surface a little. Whose property? The Jews are not holding on to anyone else's property. The "Pals" never had a country. They say they want one, but this isn't true. They have never accepted the country which was offered to them and have attacked Israel instead. Crimes against the locals? And what of the murder of Israelis committed by the "Pals"? Aren't the Israelis local? [protegió]

"The designation of second-class citizenship to gentiles. You can`t possibly deny that Jews in Israel have an unequal status with gentiles." Too right. My daughter is Catholic because I am which means even though she lives here in Israel, she could never marry here.

"That`s the outcome of polls. And have you seen the prospect for Hamas in elections? Or do you mean Hamas is not terrorist?" As any person who follows politics knows, there are a lot more people out there who do not vote than who do. My husband rarely votes in Israeli elections (he doesn't want to be responsible for the person in power), but he has plenty to say about the politics. Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization, but what does that have to do with this article? Are you one of those small people who count it as a victory when someone you argue concedes a logical point?

" guess there are bad "Pals", because they have not qualms in murdering children. However, you support them. Why?" Have I ever said I support them? I risk my life every day as I go to work. I take the 29 bus. I just feel that it is wrong to tar everyone with the same brush. Are you a lawyer? You adjudicate so well. I sincerely hope you are not a teacher. Anyone who is narrow-minded as you should not be teaching children. "Taking away someone`s livelihood, especially someone who has nothing to do with terrorist acts, is plain wrong So, even if the property belongs to terrorists, it is wrong to destroy it." Even in the US property belonging to criminals is seized when it is used or gained during the commission of a crime. So I have no problem with that. But don't you think the Palestinians should be proven to be terrorists first? People growing olives are all terrorists? It scares me that my daughter may meet people like you someday. At least I teach her that killing is wrong, but so is hating a whole group of people because of a few. I lost a cousin in the World Trade Center, but I still treat people of Arab ethnicity with dignity, if they deserve it. I am rude to Israelis when they deserve it too. Oh my, that must make me (someone married to an Israeli) an anti-Semite!

Nobody in their right mind is going to condon acts of true terror like a suicide bomber. It is curious that none of the usual gang of suspects has claimed responcibility. The kid's party is pure hype and doesn't help. The kidnapping group is new too. Is it possible Franchised Terror has come to the Territory? It would be very wise for Hamas to renounce true terror ... before the election. The world wants that, damn near demanding it. The Qassam (non-lethal use) is something of a negotiated tactic, as you say. Some say it's terror others say, academically of course, the non-lethal use is appropreated for incursions, especially the provacative ones.

who gives a damn what the mitchel report says or does not say - sharon had the absolute right as a jew to visit where he wants in jerusalem - you like it or not is totally irrelevant where is this common knowledge you speak so surely of. barak was a spent force unable to deliver on any promises as to the kid there is not a shred of evidence that the idf killed him - nothing and you could whistle dixey until doomsday to prove it! good for the queen - as if anybody gives a damn - grow up! nothing will change the chances of the pals ever getting jerusalem are the same as you growing wings - tough but that is the life keep bleating - liked the queen bit! bm

As I have said, I live in Ra'anana, which is is Israel. Obviously you live in a 3rd world country where women are chattel. My husband treats me as his equal. It must be magic married to you.

methinks you doth protest too much.

I live in Ra'anana, how about you. Chananh, Ilive here because I work here. Not because I believe in Zionism or I want to help the Palestinian. I'm probably like most people living in Israel. I want a decent life and I'll work to earn it. Gabe1: "settlers blow up busses or bam]nquet halls" No they just throw nails and oil on freeways to cause accidents (which could cause death) and they abuse the soldiers who protected them. And weren't there a couple of plots a few years ago that involved guns and bombs from the settlers? What about the deaths caused by Goldstein (?) Yes, I know, now you'll say it's only a few settlers and a lot of Palestinians. Well, in the begininning it was probably a few Palestinians. And a lack of morals is a lack of morals whether it is lying, cheating or killing. All are frowned upon by intelligent people. Small nastiness becomes large nastiness.

why come to all the chicken-feed complaints here when the big stuff is in iraq?and your own people are involved? why ignore your massive crimes and misdeeds in iraq and point out the cutting of olive trees? has it got something to do with your stay in new york?

"I have consistently called for gentiles in Israel to have the same legal status as Jews have in the US" They have the same rights as do Jews in Israel.

potobac too many of them in new york eh? control all the good stuff too.

You're welcome. There is no charge. Yes, it is bigotry. What does the situation in Israel have to do with the US?

thanks.

Post 151 was not by me, the first fake George Washington. I wrote 147 only.

I would submit that most people attacking Israel have nothing against Jews as such, and would be quite happy if Jews gave them back their property, gave them equal rights, and paid back for their crimes againt the locals.

Somebody is posting under other contributors' names. I have also seen a false S. Bart etorri zitzaidan

Let me spell it out for you then. The KGB and the Israeli security forces use many of the same techniques. If you had a problem with the KGB taking people off the streets with no charges, throwing them into punishment camps and torturing them because thky were Jews, then you should have the same problems when Israel does that to people who are gentiles. What you would not have done to you, do not do to others. As to the guy who killed himself, ask yourself - granting the resources available to him, what better tactic could he have used to get Israel to listen? What he did was in the best tradition of guerilla war (which because of the uneven levels of power between the opponents is by its nature horrible).

like they say ,too late . israel is trying to put a human face on their criminal actions .. there is nothing ethical , human ,or legal to shoot at school children ,steeling people water sources ,cutting people's livelihood . a golbale tsunami of antisemitism ? this is a joke ,there is nothing semite about you unfortunatly ,this is NOT prophit Ibrahim PBUH teaching no matter how you look at it . Judaism is one thing ,and zionism is another .

Try giving them equal rights, and see if some of that hostility dissipates.

"When you besiege a city for a long time, making war against it in order to take it, you shall not destroy its trees by wielding an axe against them. You may eat from them, but you shall not cut them down. Are the trees in the field human, that they should be besieged by you?" Deuteronomy 20:19 Jewish values are being trampled on by the crazy messianists. And more than "Jewish" values. When, for the first time, the IDF uprooted some Palestinian trees, the world responded with an outcry. But Shimon Peres then said: 'This must be a mistake. Our Prime Minister is a farmer and he would not allow such things.' Well, Sharon and the rest of the gang do allow such things. And police and IDF inaction against the uprooters gives them license to repeat their crimes. I would like to see appalled rabbis going around the settlements, preaching to their flock to stop the atrocities. And I would like to see Israeli and Jewish organizations replanting new trees in place of the old, and compensating the owners for the actions of the pogromists. Shame shame.

Thank you Dr. Freud for your psychological profile. As for your contention that I am projecting something onto Jews, you will note that I have consistently called for gentiles in Israel to have the same legal status as Jews have in the US. Is that bigotry?

If you are talking about the cutting of trees, if this is the truly the case I had no intention of justifying Israeli actions. I try not to try to justify the unjustifiable. I wish I could say the same about you. There is no excuse for cutting down olive trees for spite. There is no excuse for killing Israeis for spite. There. Know anyone who wants to equate cutting olive trees with killing people is welcome to it. Apparently may here think that the first is a far worse crime. I wonder why?

I'm with HRH on September, 2000. Sharon and the Likud were campaining hard in order to stop the Barak "give-away" before it was put to paper. Sharon's campaign promises included "beating them into submission" and "killing 10 of them for every one of us they kill." It is common knowledge to political sports fans that promises of Palestinian blood plays very well to extremist carnivores, who convinced enough that Barak was dismantling the state. The Mitchell Report calls the visit on the 28th "provacative." On the 29th, Israel started using live ammo against rock-throwers. Then came the kid in Gaza and the two soldiers in Ram Allah. BTW, only one peace-plan was presented to Arafat. The Bantustan Plan which any sober leader would have rejected. The concepts that followed, including sharing Jerusalem, were just that, concepts never put to paper. Even Queen Willamina knows that, as if it matters.

I did not write 106 either and I have no idea what herrnvolk is, but you are proving my point. You are again absolving all Palestinains of any responsibility for themselves, their lives and their future. If Israel used all the tactics available to them to ensure the security of its citizens there would no longer be a problem. Justifying suicide bombing as 'the only tactic' is abiminable. Perhaps negotiating tactics, terror reigning tactics and others would be preferable for all concerned.

Talleyrand once described something Napoleon did as being worse than being wrong - it was a mistake. You may well be saying (some people on this board do) that Jews are not bound by the same code of morality as everyone else. However, can you consider the possibility that those carrying on many of these raids are doing so specifically so that Israel will retaliate and generate more hatred among Palestinians? If you check out history, you will note that when the Germans came into Russia, they were in many places greeted with bread and salt. After Stalin's partisans provoked the Germans into mass reprisal aktionen against the civilian population, the locals learned to hate Germans.

You are adressing the wrong person here....I didn't write 101.

It has nothing to do with their being Gentiles. Once the Jews were accused of killing Gentile children to use their blood to make matzot during Pesach. Perhaps some of the actions of some Jews have to do with the fact that we are at war, with the fact that they may have had property stolen, etc. Again this does in no way justify these actions. If Mofaz called for an investigation, what is wrong with this. I personally hope that they catch the perpetrators and hand out appropriate punishment. But don't go making out that this is specific action against gentiles for them being gentiles.

It was easy to spot the phony. Destroying olive trees has somewhat the same pathology as destroying someone's identity. If the vandalism spreads here, the possibility of dialogue will be diminished, if not lost. Sicko, cut it out.

I do not know if they uphold they idea of no land for the "Pals" or not, but if they do they must have reasons. The "Pals" are demonstrating they deserve to be given nothing. What do you think of the "Pals" calling Israel the "occupied Palestine" and teaching the children they have to kill the Zionist occupiers?

I will from now on never call them that, I have been really really stupid and I'm sorry.

What i understand you to say is that if you understand what you are posting than you are probably a fake. A fake can fake all the fakers he can fake without outfaking himself. Lets face the facts. It is a wonderful fake world we live in. Rest in peace George Washington or are you still occupying a room at that fake Inn. Good Luck Loved your posting.

The designation of second-class citizenship to gentiles. You can't possibly deny that Jews in Israel have an unequal status with gentiles. Just for starters, look at the Law of the Return, and ask yourself if a gentile born in Palestine who comes from a family living in Palestine for centuries has the same legal status as a Jew whose family left 1900 years ago. The refusal to administer the law equally. If the destruction of farm property happened on farms owned by Jews, would the authorities have refused to act? Aside from that, how many Jews have been held in administrative detention? How many Jews have been tortured by the government? How much property has been expropriated from Jews?

I'm just playing games here because as extremists we don't have any arguments that sticks, so we try to stiffle debate. I hope this is not confusing you.

That's the outcome of polls. And have you seen the prospect for Hamas in elections? Or do you mean Hamas is not terrorist?

I have the phrases somewhere in my brain and I use them to say what happens. Or isn't it true that the terrorists blow themselves up in those places? I guess there are bad "Pals", because they have not qualms in murdering children. However, you support them. Why? "Taking away someone`s livelihood, especially someone who has nothing to do with terrorist acts, is plain wrong" So, even if the property belongs to terrorists, it is wrong to destroy it.

Your apology is accepted.

The second fake Ben Gurion brings up and interesting point. Are you any more entitled to be a fake Ben Gurion then he is to be a fake Ben Gurion? Now since everyone knows that the real Ben Gurion is dead, you can claim that since you were the first to usurp the name Ben Gurion on Talkback that you have rights to the name because it couldn't have been the real Ben Gurion, but had to be you, the first fake Ben Gurion. However, outside of the virtual (fake) world of talkback, you wouldn't have any rights to exclusively use the fake name of Ben Gurion, because how can you claim that privilege more then anyone else can claim that privilege. But if you couldn't claim that right outside of the virtual (fake) world of talkback, how can you claim it inside the virtual (fake) world of talkback. I hope that is clear. If anyone understands what I just said, please explain it to me.

We all know there are two rules and two systems of justice. One for Jews and one for others ( Arabs). When a crime is committed against Palestinians, murder by settlers; uprooting of trees, theft of olive harvest, the Israeli government takes its time in investigating the crime and rarely if ever do any thing about it. When a crime is committed against an Israel, the army is sent in and people get killed in the process, no questions asked, no investigation. I don't understand why Israel secret services can know what and can come up with results for crimes committed by Palestinians within 24 hours or less, and do not come up with any thing when a crime is committed by a Jew. I know that the system of justice is blind as far as the defendants and victims, but in the case of Israel it must not be blind and see no crimes committed when the victims are Arabs. We will know what happened in 2050 and settlers will never be prosecuted, never. Is this Jewish law or Israeli law?

So you have come to the conclusion you had previously come to, that I am a racist. And what do you call those who support terrorism because it is against a certain kind of people, Jews and other non-believers?

You have been looking in the right places but came up with the wrong conclusion about your place. Men and Women are not equal where you are- ?palis? land otherwise known as Somewhere

We are back and not for the better. Now we are Israeli and a Somewherian. Bad manners have nothing to do with being murderers. Even in Canada people park in Handicapped places without having a sticker but I do not see any of these people blowing themselves up. So whats your point. I don't get the connection between settlers and terrorists. are you saying that settlers blow up busses or bam]nquet halls--Hardly. Crawl back into the hole you escaped in that mythical Somewhere.

Tu Quoque (again)

Why whould I have been complaisant when the KGB mistreated people? I cannot understand why you mention the KGB for this matter because if you come out with it, you should compare it more than with the "Pals" than with Israel. You say you are not comfortable with mistreatment of Jews by Arabs. It must be deep in yourself, because I have never seen you protest against Arabs. What do you think, for instance, of the "pal" blowing himbself up two days ago? His intention was to do it in a children party.

Of course some actions taken by Palestinians are reprehensible. However, (granting the enormously uneven balance of power) those are often the only effective actions they can take. The alternative (which, of course, you would prefer) is for them to roll over and play dead. It is interesting to note, by the way, that you find yourself unable to justify Israeli actions, and have to fall back on criticizing other people.

Take it as you like, but it is a fact that "gentiles", as you say, are practising terrorism against Israel because they want the Jews wiped off.

Well, I have told Khaled a thousand times that I am no settler and not even religious. But instead of relating to the issues he inevitably calls me a "rabid settler". This of course gives him every justification NOT to reply to the points i make and excuse himself of any obligation to be civil.

Dear Chanah. . .I am totally infavor of the wall, and a trench and a moat. . .I had thought most of the thievery was attributed to the Georgian jews. . .bad press is bad press and the world is quick to condemn justly and unjustly the Merchant Of Venice. . .now we are the Pilfered Olive Tree Merchants. . .manifestly insensitive to the sensitivity of those whose ancient trees were perloined. . .bring the bastards to justice. . . give it press, give it importance. . .prosecute, set a precident of reparation.

when the extremists have run out of arguments they resort to this low form of debating. I'm sorry for being a fake.

Tu Quoque, anyone?

You?re wasting your time trying to reason with a guy like Potobac. I think I know his type ( I?m a Christian and I grew up with them and know the attitude) These guys have a thing with the Jews ? they think that Jews believe that they are better then everyone else, not subject to the same rules. I don?t know if it comes from resentment, or ignorance or suspicion or what, but they project this attitude on to Jews. And because they think Jews feel this way, their hatred and resentment grows. I?ve worked with Jewish people and think they are just regular guys like everyone else, and want to be treated like everyone else. Guys like Potobac see what is going on in Israel/Palestine as confirmation of his belief in Jewish arrogance. He doesn?t get it that what is going on in Israel/Palestine is not a Jewish - Gentile thing. It is a conflict, a war, between two enemies that hate and distrust each other, and the way all people behave in war time is not the way all people behave in peace time, as ugly as that is.

Actually I live in New York City which has a large Jewish population, and have had no more problems with Jews than I have had with any other ethnic group (in NYC every ethnic group has sharp elbows). Could it be that my problem is with the behavior of Jews in Israel, or does the fact (as you see it) that Jews can do no wrong mean that anone criticizing Jews does so on the basis of hatred?

So what do you suggest Sara. Why are you living in Ra'anana? Surely there was an Arab village there once. Kibbutz Eyal is in Israel proper and before the fence not a week passed without Palestinians from Qualqilya coming in the middle of the night to destroy crops ad steal farming equipment. The Arabs have never shown respect for Israeli farming their land. Remember Syrian barrages on the farmers in the Galil in the 1960s? I am against any form of vandalism, whether perpetrated by Palestinains or Israeli. I am not prepared however to place blame entirely on Israel or to excuse the Palestinians for thier part in this mess.

In the real world it is called REVENGE. In the Bible it is called an eye for an eye. I believe two eyes for an eye but that is me. Which version suits you better? You do not reward attrocities with kindness or just plain stupidity and giving anything to the ?palis? would be stupidity.

"The designation of second-class citizenship to gentiles" - do you mean to non-Jews living in Israel? This is nonsense and you have no right to write such misleading lies unless you have very good proof to back it up. "and the deliberate and persistent refusal to enforce the law fairly without fear or favor regardless of religion." - again, don't make such claims without backing them up. And before you go one step further I woudl like to remind you all that Israel has over a million non-Jewish citizens who are equal citizens in lall respects. The population of the PA are not Israeli citizens. Please differentiate because otherwise you are intentioanlly misleading people who know nothing of the region. The Oslo agreement placed all responsibility for the welfare of the population of the designated cities and regions in the West Bank in the hands of the Palestinian Authority.

Check out the logical fallacy "Tu Quoque".

which one you are. Are you sure that you are not becoming a rightwinger? I believe that Birth of a Nation is a History Channel production so it is hardly a nationalistic Jewish movie. Maybe I have made a mistake and thought that you were a Jew but I swear by the beard of Allah that you are a dyed in the wool Arab.One of us.

If one posits that there are valid problems the locals have with Israel (as a member of the herrenvolk I don't expect you to consider that a possibility), it follows that the locals must use the only tactics available to them.

I regret the death of any soldier. In a better world all soldiers could be doing something more productive with their life.

you instrument of choice your mouth lets you down again and again. the big question is why would you abuse us when your own country is up to its neck in blood?

"picking on ladies and bullying is also bad form" The last time I looked, both men and women are equal. If you can dish it, you must be able to take it.

I don't want a free ride, but instead of ad hominem attacks, how about addressing the charges I raise?

It has everything to do with their being gentiles. Would they be treated as they were if they were Jews? If Jewish farmers were similarly attacked, would the law have similarly sat on its hands?

"...of innocent Israeli because of the uprooting of trees, the "wall", etc." Using your logic, why are these Israelis innocent? Do they not uphold the idea of no land for Palestinians? They must, since according to you, all Palestinians think alike, therefore Israelis must do the same.

"Because Arabs did bad things to Jews, Jews have license to do anything they want to Arabs?" This is the silliest sentence of all. Have you not heard cries of revenge from Hamas murderers every time something happens? Have you lost your moral compass totally? The same can apply both ways and all ways. In the same vein: Does the fact that the Palestinians are occupied give them the license to do anything they want to the Jews? (Some of you seem to think so). DOes the fact that the Palestinians are occupied exempt them from any responsibility for their behavior and excuse all their actions? (most of you seem to think so)

Calling a person on the basis of continual deliberate bigotry and evasion of facts is not bigotry. Would you be as exercized at someone rebutting an antisemite's venom?

potobac get off your high horse.your story is stale already. give the iraqis lessons about morals.or perhaps the americans need the education after the killings in iraq.we are sated with your loathsome lectures.

"Given that most "pals" support terrorism, probably they also do." That's like saying that jews all support the settlers. As always, you are losing your arguments.

"...yet have no an iota of honesty to admit that settlers too have been threatened and harrased by palestinians." That tends to happen when you are taking over land that is deeded to someone else. Shame on the Palestinians for wanting to farm their own land!

Being outfaked by a fake. Look who is calling the kettle black. I believe that I am the real McCoy. You are the fake here. Are you sure that you are a Native English speaker. I know that I am.

Growing up as I did in New York City (which is probably as ethnically diverse a place as anywhere on earth), I have learned that the default tactic is to say a critic is acting on the basis of (fill in the blank) hatred when one can't rebut the charge.

potobac you have not made a case why you have the jews so much on your mind. why not the iraqis? your country is doing huge damage in the area? the readers of the baghdad times are badly in need of advice on how to escape the one ton bombs the americans dropped yesterday.

Just for evryone's information - and I have no doubt that there will be those screaming blue murder, but here goes anyway. The separation fence has actually served another important function. The incidence of stealing in Israel has dropped significantly. Before the fence was up, not a day wenty by without thousands of dollars worth of agricultural equipmet was stolen from Israeli farming communities near Arab villages now in the PA. This applies to car thefts as well, which have dropped significantly. There was no a summer that went by without arsonists setting igniting forest fires. The majority of these incidences involved Palestinians from the West Bank. This is fact and not fantasy. I am not saying, heavens forbid, that there are no Israeli thieves, but please everyone, stop acting as if the Palestinians are always totally innocent and the Israelis are always totally guilty. There is no such thing and perspective is needed here. All sides have to control their wrongdoers and it is unreasonable to demand from others what one is not prepared to demand from oneself.

The designation of second-class citizenship to gentiles and the deliberate and persistent refusal to enforce the law fairly without fear or favor regardless of religion.

Because Arabs did bad things to Jews, Jews have license to do anything they want to Arabs?

i wonder if potobac knows how repulsive he sounds trying to lecture us about olive trees while his country cuts down whole towns.fallujah ramadi and more then 28000 iraqi deaths since january 2004.in comparison olive trees do not seem that imporant do they potobac. but as potobac says the olive trees are at hand .and you may use anything at hand to bash the jews.

"If you think blowing up school buses, children parties, pizza parlors, discos, etc. is moderate, which moral authority do you have to accuse Israel?" Do you have these phrases saved somewhere and just cut and paste them constantly? You never say anything different. Do you live in Israel? Have you ever been here? Does all your "knowledge" come from books and the internet? Nothing is worse than a broken record, especially one who seems to have no compassion. Yes, there are bad Palestinians, but guess what, there are bad Israelis too. How about the ones who always cut in front of me at the Supersol by saying they were there and just left for a moment? Is this the action of a moral person? Or the person who tells me that there are plenty of children in Israel, one less won't be missed, when I yelled at him for almost hitting a child as he tried to park on the sidewalk because he was too lazy to park down the street? Would you say this is a caring person? Anyone who cannot see equal good and bad in all is a racist. You purport to be a Christian, yet you don't act like one. Taking away someone's livelihood, especially someone who has nothing to do with terrorist acts, is plain wrong. If you can't see that, then you are as bad as the terrorists yourself.

Can you admit both are wrong?

just as well its only your mouth.no telling what you may have done with something more serious.

In other words you just can't condemn bad actions if done by Israel or a Jew. That's the point I've been trying to get you to admit (and the racism I have been pointing out).

you came back from your holidays punching without so much as a by your leave. your words did not include regret for the young soldier's death.but there was no shortage of criticism and bullying. by their friends shall ye know them.

Your claims work both ways. It's true what you say that there is no justification for destroying olive trees and this should never happen - REGARDLESS of all else is going on. There are no excuses. The same is true for Kassan fire. There is no justification for it REGARDLESS of the past 5 years. Israel has left Gaza, is no longer there and is not longer getting in the faces of the Plaestinians there. WHy are they shooting Kassams instead of buckling down to build and use the hothouses to grow things and provide employment? Why are they bombing 'gentile' property (the UN club) and kidnapping foreigners who are there to help them? This is nothing less than pathetic behaviour and there are no, and I mean none - excuses.

The issue of the KGB arose (if you bothered to read the post) when I asked if you were so complaisant when the KGB was mistreating Jews on the basis of their religion. What you would not have done to you, do not do to others. If it is wrong when done TO Jews, it is wrong when it is done BY Jews. If you are not comfortable with mistreatment of Jews by Arabs (as am I), why are you comfortable with mistreatment of Arabs by Jews?

the operative word is "valid".haters like you cannot tell the difference. you have rested from your holidays and think it is as well to start abusing us again.you will not get a free ride.

Because it has nothing to do with them being non-Jews, which is what gentiles means. There are over a million gentiles living in Israel and nothing is happening to their property. The implications of your use of the term is misleading.

Some rightwinger is faking my signature. Posting #90 is by the Fake One, denying the olive tree atrocities. Idiot, when you deny reality, you also allow holocaust deniers to peddle their theories. The Fake One struck yesterday for the first time. On the "Lie of Palestine" forum, post #673, he advised Khalid to go see some nationalistic Jewish movie, presumably very anti Arab. What are you trying to accomplish, destroy every last channel of positive communication between Israelis and Palestinians? For everyone on thiese forums, please look around for a low intelligence person who is not a native English speaker. Being a rightwinger is a must.

it is bullying when you harass the lady time after time.but then bullies never realise that they are bullying.starts in the school yard.

You are letting yourself off far too easily. Abbas will not contain terrorism as he is afraid to cause a civil war (which is raging anyway. Sharon took some very drastic steps this year despite forecasts that this would create a civil war and a split in Israeli society. He acted as a leader and said this is the best for our country. Abbas and other Palestinian leaders should at least try to convince suicide bombers that (1) this is morally reprehensible and (2) it is against the interests to the furute of the Palestinians and is achieving opposite results than those intended. There is no evidence that it is even being attempted. I have not heard of a single arrest of a Palestinian gunman who murdered an Israeli who has been arrestd, charged and sentenced. On the other hand there have been countless reports of "justice" meted out to "collaborators". I don't think that anyone in their right mind can condemn the ruleof law in Israel while ignoring the blatant avoidance of the rule of law in the PA.

in potobac's case it is his mouth.it often runs away with him but that is an occupational hazard. sure a normal person can criticise us but we jews have developed a way to sort out the haters.you potobac are definitely a hater.no question.

Of course you didn't say gentiles. To say so would be to admit that Israel systematically dicriminates against its religious minorities on the basis of religion. All I have ever asked for is for Israel to treat gentiles as the US treats Jews. As to your being indifferent to the religion of the person whose trees were cut down, I would respectfully submit that if another country as a matter of policy refused to prosecute crimes against Jews you would loudly raise the issue of persecution.

And what offences would those be (in Israel)?

1920- The peaceful Arabs were defending their Honour because the Jews in Hebron were cutting down Olive trees and ravishing Arab women so they went on a rampage and massacred women and children and Allah was pleased. 1947- Arab irregulars under Kikwa were so enraged at the Jews surviving the Holocaust that again they had to defend their honour and blew up th Jewish agency building and killed children in kindergartens. The Arabs residing in Palestine did not feel that they did a adequate killing job and wanting to share their glory for Allah with their kind invited 5 arab regular armies to help and please Allah. Shouting the glory of Allah they advised their compatriots to leave so that they would not impede the glorious victory but these deceitful Jews fought back and prevented their glorious massacres. How dare these Jews prevent the will of Allah: How dare they stand in the way. It is an affront to every peace loving Arab.

You understand him and clearly feel he was justified in his actions. Are you willing to say that cutting down trees is wrong, and that the person doing so (and the person refusing to enforce the law for crimes against gentiles) should be in jail?

1) It is not bullying to call a person on racism, invalid forms of thought, and inaccuracies. If she keeps on spewing out hatred, I have the right to point out that IT IS hatred. 2) It is curious that one finds on this board calling out a Jew on saying something wrong is hatred of Jews. Are Jews to be immmune from valid criticism? 3) When did I say that the person killing a soldier is my friend? You will admit, though, that the only way the person had of fighting against Israel was specifically that. I'm sure whoever it was would much rather have launched an air strike or an artillery barrage, but one makes do with what one has.

It is quite conceivable that the olive tree story is a complete fabrication than on the other hand it could also be a figment of someones imagination but in any case it could be said that peace and olive trees must co-exist if one wants to continue with the peace process. I must admit that if the olive tres were still standing in their entireties than we would have less Qassams as the Hamas is very attched to olives but on the other hand it the destruction of olive trees could very well play into the Israelis hands as a lack of olive oil couls prevent the firing of Qassams as Hamas would lack lubricants required for Qassam firings. To restate my position I am of the opinion that uprooting the olive trees by anyone may or may not be such a good idea.

Why don`t you salt the earth next. Is there no `due process`. What the hell is wrong with you people? Who is `running the show?` It sounds like you have a bunch of `cowboys` running amok. . .and the sherrif is in `cahootz`. . .This plays very badly in the press. . .there should be a Ministry of Shooting Yourself In The Foot. . .Who do you have to know in Israel to get `appropriated` trees? Where are the American Civil-Injury Lawyers when you need them? The Palestinians should be able to `clean-up` from this microcosmic injustice. . .Israel is a land of law is it not? I mean that is the whole point of it? Equal justice under the law. . .that all men are created equal. . .

Not much shocks Shaul Mofaz, that should be taken into context. After a 1000 olive trees has been destroyed by settler scum with the silent approval of Shaul Mofaz, he is now "shocked". Why? Could it be because, as was pointed out in the editorial, that he now is fighting for his political whoredom in the Kadima Party? Could it be that after the sh-t hit the fan Mr Mofaz now have been ordered to play "shocked"? Because Mr Sharon is as guilty as the rest of the old Likudists and maybe Shaul doesn't understand that he has been choosen to fall on the sword. Maybe he thinks that Sharon is really after the settlers and that he, Shaul, will come out of this smelling like roses. Could it be that Ariel is getting rid of Mofaz and have choosen to drag some settler scum with him. Two birds.... Now the army, the Shin Bet and the police have been called upon to do what? Investigate? We all know what that means, but what is the already predicted outcome? What is the result made up for this Investigation to conclude? That the army was guilty? That the Shin Bet was guilty? That the police was guilty? That the settlers was guilty? We all know that they were in cohert with the settlers and that it took all of them to pull something like this off. So the police knew nothing, the army knew nothing, the Shin Bet knew absolutely nothing and the settlers are as innocent as lambs. They wouldn't even have bothered to form an Investigation if this was to be the outcome, so the fall guy is already picked out. Someone that will let the others off the hook. I hardly think any settlers will cover for the security services if they are to take the full blame. So the settlers and a "fall guy" high up. Could that 'fall guy' be Shaul Mofaz? After all nobody could take Shaul's feeling of "shock" seriously and any investigation would have to address the question, 'who knew and when did they know'? Shaul knew, he knew from the start and he should bare the brunt of the guilt and maybe that is the whole idea. Maybe Sharon has decided that it is time for Shaul Mofaz to spend more time with his family. It sure as hell isn't to stop the settlers from taking away the lively hood from the Palestinians, that's for sure.

I have not read Abbas considers qassams falling in Israel to be " shocking deeds" and has appointed a committee to look into it. Nor has he seemed to investigate the matter of suicide bombers. Is there a Palestinian Committee to Investigate the Natanya Mall Bombing? In fact I have not heard or read anything about Abbas using the 30,000 or so armed men he has to stop either the qassams or terror. So Ha'retz will run columns like this and the Gideon Levy piece until the next terrorist outrage, when the usual journalist suspects will go into editorial hiding for a couple of days, until the newscycle is clear. If Ha'aretz can't get indignant about qassams or terror, why should I get indignant over trees? Is the equation a live Palestinian tree is worth more than a live Israeli Jew? Think about it.

assad the younger is drowning and not even the fat loathsome mk bashara can save him. steamship assad has been holed below the water line by an old thug side-kick of assad the elder.so how long befor assad the younger drowns?anybody's guess.

Just three days ago, a "Pal" detonated himself murdering several people and wounding others, a child among them. I would like to have your opinion about it and what crime is more serius from your point of view, the murder and wounds of those people or the uprooting of trees (in the case this had really happened).

After so long time suffering the terrorists, it doesn't surprise me that people can lose their minds.

And where is the connection between the KGB and me that you established? You said something about the KGB and me. So I said I have nothing to do with the KGB or know nothing about their methods, etc., but the "Pals" do, implying that the "Pals" can explain better than me, because their leaders have been taught by the KGB. I am not comfortable with mistreatment to anybody, majority or minority. So I am not with the treatment the Jews are given by the Arabs.

Well, we have advanced a little. At least, you admit it was you, not me, as you first said, who started saying "gentiles". If a Jew had olive trees, and somebody uprooted one, I would think "Poor man. Some hooligans destroyed his tree". But I wouldn't make a fuss and ask for the authors of the uprooting to be killed or deprived of their land.

I didn't say that. I only told you that I understand him if an Israeli went and uprooted a tree.

picking on ladies and bullying is also bad form. you have made numerous bullying posts to the same person. something to do with lice and olive trees. listen fella the day you come and protest about the soldier blown up by one of your loathsome friends last week then i may listen. to your jew-bashing. meanwhile stop the bullying.

Do Khalid's remarks evoke such a reaction from some of the Jewish contributors because they resonate so well. As a Jew one should be appalled by the uprooting of trees and equally applalled by the failure of the state to find these heinous perpetrators and administer justice to them. It is remarkable how the IDf so efficiently locates Palestinians it wants to briing to justice but how dilatory their measures are when it comes to Jewish criminals. It is time to say "enough." Those Jews who wish to deny to Palestinians what they claim for themselves unermine the values of justice and equality and ultimately undermine the moral underpinnings of the state itself. The best way to defend the state of Israel is to proclaim loud and clear that "yes, we need a state, as do the Palestians." Perhaps thoses who are criticising the comments of Khalid are only trying to justify their own lack of a moral compass.

I find it "amazing" that that Israel Intelligence can hunt down the Munich murders all over the world ... yet when a thousand trees are cut down the entire country's police and intelligence community are baffled and clueless. It's sad really - Israel should be better than that.

Hmm more olive tree stories - and so near an election! Funny how Haaretz makes more of the supposed uprooting of a few trees (an '05 story) then of the UPROOTING of 8,000 of its fellow citizens. Maybe Haaretz should get its priorities straight. Zeev loves to misquote Isaiah - but maybe he should understand it first. Zeev - there cant be peace with out JUSTICE - and you dont get either from people who want to kill you, have stolen your land, who mock your religion, and who blow up shopping malls.

Oh where for art thou learned khalid or have you decided that for the new year you will not put the readers through your baseless and irrelevant views? PS. I hear a rumour on the grapevine that a large scale ground offensive is about to happen in the territories!! That would mean YOU MUST BE CAREFUL KHALID AS IM SURE THE SHIN BET ARE WATCHING YOU VERY CLOSELY!

Israel's war crimes list is soooo long that the cutting down of trees didn't seem so relevent when you see the human suffering and the ongoing killing that is conducted by them. But who are we kidding,This is just another political stunt by Mofaz to seem more lefty or centrist since he has joined the party. But anything Mofaz tries he can not even come close to being impartial,just or even centrist

Not so. I do not ignore the offenses by gentiles against Jews. I simply maintain that it is not licit for the majority population of a country to persecute THE WHOLE minority population because of the offenses of SOME of them. Collective punishment is considered poor form.