Let the Haredim walk

Neri Livini you are quite the example of tolerance and open-mindedness! Such manners, such thoughtfulness towards others! Your graciousness and consideration for the feelings of your neighbors are truly the mark of an enlightend person who really cares about others. My question to you is, if an observant Muslim man asked you to change seats in a sherut taxi would you also refuse?

Mr. Livneh, Thank you so much for saying this so well.

and being bodily expelled. When in Rome do as the Romans do. Neri calm down!

No society can afford to let it's retards rule. There is no path back to the past. Anyone, and any society, which seeks to withdraw into the past is doomed to fail.

It's nice you have the luxury of choice. In London we have to get on our underground or overground train or bus as best we can. If we worried about whom we stood (yes, stood, seats are a luxury) we'd never get to work!

I AGREE WITH MIER. PLEASE DONT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPIN. NEXT THING I WILL BE TOLD ISRAEL DOORS ONLY OPENED TO THE ORTGHODOX JEW.

What a shame there is so little for respect for women in the orthodox world. Men should be standing up and giving their seats to any woman regardless of their heritage. Why is it that everyone has to follow their beliefs when their population is a fraction of 1% of the world population? I'm a secular Jew who considers myself much more Godly than these so-called holy men. I believe to be Godly is to be a good person to all.

a country like the others ? which others ?

It took the US a long time to try and establish equality for men and women, the way it should be in a democratic society. It is nothing short of neanderthal to treat women as subservient in the 21st century. It is a shame and embarrassment to all of us Jews. We sit and judge other Middle Eastern nations for their backward, intolerant ways and here we are setting the same example

If it were not for the hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews who, over the eons, hewed strongly to the traditions and laws of their forebears, there would be no Jew alive today, no state, and no ethical tradition for the secularists to bray about. They are biting the very hand that feeds them. If they cannot handle a little wise separation between men and women, then let them go and explain why there is so much divorce and lack of faith between men and women in their world of so-called 'freedom!'

when all is said and done i can only find this discussion humorous... was it ariel sharon who said something along the lines that israel was a great country but he sometimes wished for a different people to inhabit and run the country ?

Chivalry isn't dead yet!

Reading examples of such developments make me sick. I hope Israel will hand all of Jerusalem over to the Palestinian authorities soon. Israel does not need you.

Yes I am for sex segregation but only if they put the men in the back . If these guys were gentlemen they would not push their pregnant women to the back. The fact that the pecking order seat order put men in the front automatically shows how sexist the Haredim are.

It is sad to see this article and to see these comments. You should all learn religious tolerance and be sensitive to your brothers and sisters who value the precept of the Torah. I myself do not understand the haredim, but I do understand that they are sensitive about this issue and prefer this way when they are the Jewish majority. We shouldn't try to force of polotics on them or else we too are the bad guys.

I've only one question for the Orthodox and Ultra-O; as it concerns breaking the 613 laws, how is that working out for you?

Are American styled freedom riders - very much akin to those in the southern US (many who were Jewish), who forced segregated facilities in the south to integrate.

Well, yes, precisely. It's interesting being on a bus in Jerusalem when Haredim are there - I haven't been asked by anybody to move, but there've been times when an ultra-religious man has made a point of moving past me in my seat to go stand further back on the bus...

Stop this persecution of people just because they are religious! Stop being so insensitive. They are just asking you to move seats not countries!

These ultra orthadox Jews super conservative jews are just the same as there ultra consevative Muslim brothers. Just cause there women do not cover up from head to toe does not make it any better.These women are treated as Second class citizens Muslim or Jew is just a label, muslims alway get blasted in the news for how they treat there women but here in the states you never hear how the ultra orthadox women get treated by there men. I for one would wish these men one day get a taste of there own medicine. These men are lazy bums who do nothing all day long but live off the state,

Nursing while some creapy man watches is uncomfortable no matter what religious affiliation you are. I often try to sit with the women only to have some man infiltrate the women's section of the bus. It is really annoying.

I am an orthodox man. I recall that millions of jews traveled the Polish trains: Minianim were made, no Mehitza ever built, Jewish and non-Jewish women passed between those praying. Nobody came up with suggestions for change. Nobody immitated the Ayatollahs. We finally got to Isr- sorry to Persia.

What a pity that secular people won't even try to understand the Haredim. I am from the US, where the Amish, and the Quakers before them were respected for their "piety", and compromises were worked out that made everyone happy, including by the way exemptions to service in the US military. That is not the case in Israel, where you have at least one 'fat-lady' who commented that she goes out of her way to annoy Haredim and a majority of talk-backers cheering her on. Nothing is going to change in this country until there is mutual respect, and a desire by all to achieve solutions that work for everyone. I do not believe it is a religious issue. I believe the problem is one of Israeli culture, which does not give adequate attention to the needs of others. You can see it in the way Israelis drive-- someone can be trying to make a u-turn, and nobody in traffic will pause even for a moment to let the stuck vehicle finish its rotation. That never happens in the US. I find that people are just downright mean here. There are people who say- well Israelis all come together when pressed, (such as in war), but this is the case in most any society. How do people act between one and another when things are calm-- that's what I look at, and I am not impressed.

Even if there were separate train cars for women and separate for men, Haredim will not be happy. There issue is not just separation of men from women, but there separation from everyone else.

I don't get it. You excoriate Haredim for all sorts of iniquities they are supposed to committ, but when you learn you can get a wheel chair, or a medical device "on loan" in return for a reasonable security deposit from Yad Sarah, an organization run by Haredim, you take them up on their services. And, if you ever bothered to notice the people whose incomes are "too much", the people who don't benefit from National Insurance on account of a few hundred shekels more than the upper limit, the ones who go to the soup kitichens run by the Haredim, or the many G'amchim open to the public that people use, and not just Haredim. That being said, if two out of six cars serve that population, and the other four are for you, why do you complain? Have you bothered to read the other talkbacks where separate seating for women is common in the Republic of India and Japan, and in Mexico women with children get a whole car to themselves so they don't have ask for favors from the other riders. Get off you high horse, and realize that Haredim are part of the life of this country. I know how hard you tried to eliminate them, and, all the devious ways Haredim are kept from entering the job market with those "little" disabilities that come up to make sure a "dos" won't bother you you. It ain't gonna work--Haredim are here to stay, and you better learn to live with that fact.

Why should public money taken from Israeli secular taxpayers' expenses be used to help sexists enforce their discriminatory view of women?

I ALWAYS, if possible, sit next to a haredi man on buses. And watch him squirm as he decides whether to be comfortable or holy. He usually decides it won't kill him to sit next to an old, fat lady.

they sit where they are told. If they cant controll their urges thats their problem. The niddah issue is a nonsense under the circumstances,if they sit on a seatpreviously occupied by a niddah same thing. Time for them to get a job,too much time on their hands.

Your attitude is just an unpleasant one. It's an issue that the Haredi community value highly - it's a big part of their way of life. There is a big difference between Haredization and just kindly helping someone out of a potentially uncomfortable situation for them. I really think that the minor inconvenience of moving seat on a sherut is worth doing if it benefits anyone - just in the same way that you would move for a disabled, elderly or pregnant person.

I can easily imagine that passive resistance to this sex-segregation might turn into active resistance--after all some of the Jerusalem Haredim are famous for their ability to turn a molehill into a mountain--and it might get ugly fast. After all, most secular couples would prefer to sit together, and not all spouses will take it kindly when their better half is asked to move. We know of cases where couples were attacked on the segregated buses in Beit Shemesh. I'm actually worried that some may not go down easily. That would be bad, and perhaps quite violent. Better to enforce tolerance than segregation.

looking at the photo in the article--i wouldn't want to sit downwind of those guys

There is a saying in New England that your rights end where my rights begin; which means that your rights can't trump mine. The haredim certainly have the right to feel trains should be segregated by sex, but that doesn't trump the right of everyone else to sit wherever they want. If their religious beliefs are so strong that they can't tolerate letting others sit where they want, walking is always an option.

If sane people, religious and secular, do not say enuf is enuf we will have separate shopping hours at supermarkets (already exists in some crazy neighborhoods) men spitting at and verbally harassing women because they don't like their fashion choices (yep, already have this one) and violent demonstrations with burning of expensive public property because we open a public parking lot for the general public's use on Saturday (got that one too) and finally 10;s of thousands of children in as publicly funded school system who are refused basic education in science, math, history, citizenship, civics, English, etc. (oh yeah good old Yuli Tamir gave that one). We are headed for a clash of civilizations and the sane majority is losing. Pluralism is just another word for surrender.

My hat off to Golda Meir and to Neri Livneh for putting it on the line and saying it as it is!

Nowhere else in the whole planet would any of these people utter a squeak. we jews preach against segregation and ghettoing and yet our most "learned" are the ones that DEMAND it = As usual jews are good at saying "do as i say but don't do as i do" and so go the peace talks

They are talking about a couple of compartments per train there will be more than enough mixed seating and we are not even talking about laying on extra compartments. Assuming the operator says a certain route means we will need 6 cars ( orthodox included ) so instead of having 6 mixed cars they have 4 mixed and 1 male only and 1 female only compartment. Anybody is allowed to sit in these single sex compartments the only rule is men & women are seperated. These are not religious segregated they are sex segregated. Any man jewish or not can sit in the mens compartment and any woman jewish or not can sit in the womens compartment. There are certainly lots of non orthodox women who will feel more comfortable in a single sex compartment rather than a mixed one. A huge percentage of Jerusalems population are orthodox jews who feel more comfortable traveling segregated. If this rail is designed to serve all residents of Jerusalem as there are so many orthodox and as its not going to hurt anybody by having a couple of single sex compartments then they deserve to have their voices heard. it is not sex discrimination and there are other countries where their subways and light rails have cars for women only because they feel more comfortable that way but nobody calls that sex discrimination but if orthodox jews want a couple of single sex cars then thats discrimination and it must not be allowed. The only reason this is even being discussed is because so many seculars hate the haredi just for being who they are and think the idea of people who practice religion belong in another time and the only right way is the secular way where religion is not an issue. I DARE PEOPLE TO GIVE ME A JUSTIFIABLE AND PRACTICAL REASON why there should not be a couple of single sex cars that any man or any woman can use if there is plenty of space in the mixed car?

There are barely ever any Haredim on the moniot sherut from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv. Let alone the type that would request these kinds of things. This really sounds like a big fantasy story to me. The moniot sherut to TA work on Shabbat also, and just for that reason, most religious people won't use them and prefer Egged instead (though the 405 and 480 travel on Shabbat also - they start well before the end of Shabbat, the first one arriving from TA to Jerusalem only 15 minutes after the end of Shabbat). As for the light rail: the idea itself is ridiculous, given the fact that the light rail will not serve any Haredi neighborhoods. Perhaps those traveling from the CBS to Bait VeGan will use it, but - Bait VeGan is not an extremist neighborhood, and the buses going there (16, 23, 33, 39) are not "mehadrin" either. The single stop next to Meah Shearim (Shivtei Yisrael / Road 60), on the route currently used by bus 6 (which the light rail will largely replace, I imagine), is never used by any Haredim anyway; bus 6 is considered to be a secular bus, especially on that part, and doesn't even go anywhere Haredim need to go (Pisgat Zeev? Malcha?). I strongly oppose "mehadrin" services that operate at a higher standard/frequency than non-mehadrin lines, such as the 402 versus the 400 - for example, the last (non-Mehadrin) 400 goes at 23:40, whereas the 402 (Mehadrin) goes every 10-12 minutes until 1:00! Meaning, if you need to get from Ramat Gan/Bnei Brak to Jerusalem after 23:40, you can ONLY get a "mehadrin" bus - there ISN'T anything else. The same applies for, for example, the Jerusalem - Safed route, the 982 - there IS no other bus, at all. The way it should be done is for example bus 418 from Jerusalem to Beit Shemesh. There is the 417, which is *not* Mehadrin, which goes more or less the same route in a much higher frequency, and there is the 418, which *is* Mehadrin, and goes in a lower frequency, on almost the same route. There is also the 415 from Superbus which doesn't even go to the religious neighborhoods of Beit Shemesh or Jerusalem. Nobody need ever be bothered by line 418 being "mehadrin" - if you don't want it, take the 415 or 417!

Neri: Thank you very much for this article. You hang onto your seat. I'm with you.

and we can chat about any subject that rises". Maybe they should avoid public transit altogether since it puts them in close proximity to all sorts of unwholesome sinners and lascivious fiends. Actually, maybe even avoid any public place - don't they realize that we're everywhere?

Since Arabs are about a third of the Jerusalem population, and many of them are conservative and don't like mixed seating, I suggest that a train, say of 7 cars as befits Jerusalem, will have 3 cars for general mixed seating, a Mehadrin (segregated) car for men, a Mehadrin for women, and two more segregated cars for Arab men and women. I would put a mixed car at the front, then another in the middle after the two Mehadrin cars, and another at the end of the train. This will provide an even better separation between the Haredis and Arabs. If you wonder why Haredi cars should be towards the front and the Arab cars towards the back, well, Jews are in the majority. But I wouldn't insist on the privilege. Let the train go back and forth on the trucks (and not in a circular trajectory) so that the Arabs and Jews switch their relative positions.

This is a hilarious article, just the sort of attitude that israel needs to restore and boost its humanity.

I would think most Israelis would defer to the sensitivities of the ultra-Orthoox community if the latter would make even a minimal effort to contribute to the country instead of being antiquated leeches. For now, Bravo to the writer!