Lessons of the Palestinian fighting

i have also been looking into your comments on other posts( jerusalem post is a good one..lol ), people are also complaining that all your facts are misleading and garbage,and you are asking stupid questions or making stupid assesments, again haaretz, please. thankyou.

lmao, jesus is gods son, or jesus is the son of god, tomatoes, tomaatoes, i am amazed at your logic regardless, you must smoke pot, anyway, read #173 post, for you make no sense in what you have written in all your posts, but post #173 does, the israeli parliament has failed the israeli people and peace. i agree with viper, peace can be achieved and all can live side by side. oh and by the way, you left quite alot of history out, and your i.q is quite dismal, maybe 10 and thats being genorous.you are one of the war mongering people that won't let peace prevail as all your post have indicated, haaretz has been great so far, they can go one better by banning your type.

thinks a religious rant is "logic." I love the ignorance of "logically, jesus is gods son." No, my puppy, in your faith, jesus is the son of god. In every other faith on the planet, he isn't. Not just Islam and Judaism, but B'hai, Hindu, Buddhish, Zorastrianism, Wicca, animism, Shinto ... The scary part is that you truly believe your ignorance is knowledge and that you can ignore any reality that disagrees with your fantasies.

i would like everyone to read something on this site as follows http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0610/S00206.htm this to me seems the truth, i really hope many israelis read this. this in reality shows who won the war between israel and hezbollah,it is logical to say this report is correct in all forms.most arabs are now keeping up with the times and have taken on lessons of previous wars from sides that won when it was thought that they couldn't(north vietnamese),many arab countries are now as ready and equipped,in the end, israel has a real choice, it can go on it's destructive path and eventually be wiped out OR it can sit down, make peace, and have friends next door, imagine, israelis going to damascus for a weekend away and syrians eating traditional israeli food. this is not a dream, for it can become reality to the last detail, if the war mongers on all sides were voted out.60 yrs of fighting ? OR many more years of friendship, it's all your decision

thankyou 171, another clear point.no one has to degrade anothers religion, but the israelites condemned jesus,and logically, jesus is gods son,i still can't work out for the life of me, how jews are gods chosen people, when they condemned if to death,can a true jew/israeli please inform me,this is not an attack, i really would love to know, ty.

In the wider perspective of western political arena and its periphery, Jews and Christians are seen grinding their axes for their ulterior motives, in a complete unison in world affairs. But for last 2000 years Christians have not been able to convince Jews that, the prophet Jesus, the Christian picked up and follow, was actually prophet of Jews and their own reformer which Israelite failed to recognise. Jesus was out rightly rejected by Israelite. He was put on the cross to die a humiliating death. How unfortunate it is, that Israelites (Jews); were the chosen people of God. God gave them the book. To keep them on the right track, a follow up service was also catered for, and God very graciously kept on sending many other prophets till ultimately Jesus came to reform them. Succeeding religions are not that fortuitous to avail such like facilities of the divinely guarded tracks. This is God?s design that truth is always kept upheld at ?all the times? and, in a very clear, vivid, and distinguished way. You have just to make a sincere, tender leap to reach for it. Jews know about Christianity very well, same is the case of Christian that they know Islam in details. But there is a mind set of a creed of zealots found in these religious arena, which keeps a close watch to guard against any intrusion effecting their vested interests, They make sure that it stays twisted as such at all the time and at all levels, Any cross over is forbidden. Then there is lot of wealth and estate business involved in these arenas. One can find series of economic empires erected on these foundations by the twist. The splendour, opulence and pomp and show and prestige enjoyed by the clergies of these fogy empires, all this simply restrict them to accept the truth knocking so loud at the doors. A tremendous courage, is required to step out of delude and have a cross over.

Lets see, he admits that Jews are the existing people with the oldest claim, then says that because there were previous people, now unknow, Jews have no rights. "a little before b.c." Historians and archeologists can trace Jews back past 1000 BCE. "A little"? Was the conquest of Englnd in 1066 just "a little before" now? Finally, you ignore all my postings that refer to UNR181. It points out that both peoples have a right to the land, at least 3,000 years of Jewish history and over 1,000 of Arab. The British ruled 80% of Palestine completely off limits to Jews. It stated that the remaining should be shared by two democratic nations with both people having citizenship rights in both. Jews accepted, Arabs said no. Israel today has an 18% ARab minority while the Palestinians demand a land ethnically cleansed of Jews. Before you claim "everyone is guilty", accept a little thing called "history."

taipan, you are right. No one is above God's law. And God gave the land to Israel and it also includes much of the land now occupied by Arabs who are squatters. In the final conflagration, they will answer to God.

go through their own growing up period, where they could no longer kill someone for being an unbeliever. This will have to happen also with some of the more radically inclined Muslims.. Most Muslims are not out to kill every Jew and 'infidel' though and always including EVERY Muslim as a terror loving nutcase is pointless and quite unhelpful to Israel, and to the whole world.

the muslims won't allow it ? ahhh yes, ancient israel, nonsesical tangent ? you make me laugh, who was there before the jewish people ? and you know because you lived there 3000 yrs or more ago ?, no one knows, which brings me back to who's land is it ? lands have been taken over by so many ancient civilisations, we speak of israel land since a little before b.c and for a little after as in the history books, this is not an attack on israel nor arabs, just people talking rubbish like you who cannot not nor ever determine who has the right to this land, and so i say again, people can live together regardless, just the politicians and anti-peace idiots like you that don't want it. and giving half information which makes palestinians look bad.everyone is guilty of something, no one is above gods law.

80% of British Palestine, including much of ancient ISrael, is completely off limits to Jews as the nation of Jordan. Jews didn't like it, but accepted it. UNR181 split the remaining 20% almost in half and said Jerusalem would be an international city. Jews didn't like it but accepted it in the name of peace. THe Arabs said no, declared war and invaded. To this day, Israel has a 20% Arab population while the Palestinians demand zero Jews in their nation. To this day, the PLO charter says they don't want Gaza and the WB, only Israel. To this day, the Arab League and the OIC call for Israel's destruction and Iran calls for Israel to be wiped off the map. On your more nonsensical tangent: While Arab leaders are King for life, what's King for a term or two?

who's land is it ?, it's israels of course, or is it palestinians ?, we can go back to 20 bc, who was there then ?, we can go back further, it was part of syria and turks and macedonians and italy's and god know who else ruled in their era. all this fighting for land and water. so who owns israel again ? well as far as i am concerned it's everyones, SO WHY THE HELL CAN'T EVERYONE LIVE THERE SIDE BY SIDE IN PEACE ? BECAUSE OUR FREAKING POLITICIANS WON'T LET US SO THEY CAN BE FREAKING KING FOR A TERM OR TWO, THATS WHY. oh yes, peace forever.

Which is what you're really saying. It just annoys you that the majority of Jews here are waking up to the amount of money you steal from the taxpayer and are beginning to demand you pay your own way. Pity, that, eh?

k.m.a., The land was given to Israel through a covenant between God and Isaac. The Arabs took much of the land by the sword. This is called stealing by civilized folk.

Some fanatics (Arabs) claim, as in #155, that Israel belonged to their great grand-father because he (and some others) had a private property there! We could go back into history and argue at what date to look for, based on property tittles, this needs books. In 1947, the UN considered history, ownership,other inhabitants, working in industry & others and decided on a partition plan based on majority of people in an area. Arabs refused the partition , started wars and lost. They should also be penalized for these wars. We can well argue that Arabs stole the land from the Jews earlier then in 48 (Hebron & Jerusalem are good example & not the only ones). It is well known that Arabs came in, first, around the 7-9 th century. I do not see their tittle to a national priority. On the other hand, 900,000 Jews escaped Arab countries, where are their private properties ? Israel belongs to the Jews on history , moral, land exploitation.

They are confused, or desparate, or simply pragmatic.

It is all politics. Hamas does not care and is willing to set aside her principle if this will give her gain and in the later future a possibility to destroy Israel.

Hi BG, to a certain extend I can follow your analysis. But however, I think the writer is right by saying this hudna, or even a peace treaty for that matter, will give them time to arm and develop further ideology. You forget wgat is going on in Europe. Every, and I repeat, EVERY random muslim being interviewd immediately talks about Allah or the Koran. Muslims in Holland start to waer johabs and burkas and so on. This religious extremism is growing, whether it is driven by other forces than theology. This development is a danger to the ME as well. This evolutiuon you are talking about is very slow and it will take at least another century or so. In the meantime Israel's neighbor will arm themselves and will alwys try to find a way to attack Israel. The fact they don't do it now is because of the lack of power. not because of slightly changing opinions.

Which says it all, no further comment needed.

its not clear to me why there isn't a op-ed law that only those arguing against interest should be allowed to write, otherwise, who really cares, yet another impossibly biased op-ed by an Israeli Jew about the problems dem der A-rabs are having seems a bit much. Until and unless there is a just solution to the occupation and some kind of reparations and apologies given to the palestinians there will never be peace in the entire region. So, maybe there will not be peace, until it is the peace of the graveyard. Everything else is simply hand wringing and a waste of time.

do you have the deed to the land? did your great grandfather own the land? if either answer is NO then it is NOT, repeat NOT your land. you dislodged the original dwellers of the land and claimed it as your own, and created facts on the ground. nothing more. a country of thugs and murderers. print this haaretz!!!

It was reported this week that the Hamas led government had signed an agreement with the Israeli gasoline firm Paz, beginning in January. The existing agreement with another Israeli firm was made with the "corrupt" Fatah government and the new agreement apparently saves lots of money. Good for them - except how can they make agreements with Israeli firms if they deny the right of Israel to exist? Double standards?

In 1948,Israel had a 20% non-Jewish population in a total of less than a million. We now have a population of 7 million, and we still have a 20% non-Jewish population. Meanwhile, Jews are gone from most of the Arab world and the Palestinians demand yet another ethnic cleansing of the West Bank. '45-50 saw around 50 million refugees worldwide. All were absorbed by their new nations, EXCEPT Arabs. Arabs moving to N America & Europe are citizens while those moving to Arab nations are still in camps 58 years after Israeli independence. Meanwhile, Israel absorbed 600,000 of the 800,000 Jewish refugees from the Arab world. Yet you continue to invent a "right" only as a way to attack Israel. You're a bigoted liar suffused with anti-semitism. Until you can really accept facts, you're nothing but a mouth piece for jihad.

" high moral standard as how the ultra liberal left sees and what it tries to pull over world`s eyes.......There is ugly reality and truth out there beginning with the radical Islam." This is where you go wrong, because you begin to divide yourself and your people as liberals, leftists, rightists, conservatives, you begin to take sides just for the sake of taking it, meaning if one rightist prick said something(mike savage) than your all ears and you become his voice, regardless of your thoughts.. that brainwashing must be voided, 2ndly, There are extremists in every religion, it was radical christianity that started the war in Iraq, it is radical Judaism that stole the land of Palestine(ask the truetorahjews.org), and it is radical Islam that use their bodies as personal bombs, however it is up to the people who are true to their religion to represent it well and avoid the violence that misnames it.

Some years ago I read that Prophet M'hammad said that, "As Jews and Chritians believe in the one and only God, the same one as we Muslims, they should be left alone to worship as they believe. My opinion is the branch called Shia, wrote a book which told everything M'hommad did and said, then added their ideas as to how we all should live our lives, quite like the Evangelicals and the sickies of today. M'hammad said he was not God and to worship God, not himself. Shites seem to have it mixed up. Salaam, Peace and Shalom!!! JA

Sorry to confuse you with the facts.

..."Islamic holy lands upon which Israel sits. This is a problem that the Palestinians will have to resolve among themselves..." I don't understand this statement, because if holy lands mean East Jerusalem, it would not only be Palestinian issue, not only muslims issue, but THE ISSUE OF WHOLE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND SECURITY. When President Oscar Arias of Costa Rica remove their embassy from East Jerusalem last month, he knew what exactly at stake of maintaning East Jerusalem's status quo.

The Dhimmi: An Overview DEFINITION: The status of People of the Book (Jews and Christians) unders Islamic rule. DHIMMI HOTSPOTS: Pakistan: anti-Christian legislation Iran: Systematic oppression of the Bahai community Sudan: Murder and enslavement of Black Africans Saudi Arabia: Apartheid for all non-Muslims Indonesia: Terrorizing of Christian minorities Egypt: Oppression of Coptic Christians Bangladesh: Terrorizing of Hindu and Christian minorities by Islamic radicals DHIMMI: A BRIEF OVERVIEW 7th-21st century. The notion of Dhimmitude, originating in the 7th century, still applies today to non-Muslims under Islamic rule?whether Jews or Christians, whether in Saudi Arabia or in Sudan. Dhimmitude began in 628 CE when Mohammed and his forces conquered the Jewish oasis at Khaybar. They massacred many of the Jews and forced the rest to accept a pact ("Dhimma") which rendered them inferior to their Muslim conquerors.

You take yourself too seriously. Margie knows, I am sure, that even many Jews do not keep the mitzvot, let alone born Muslims who have a different religion.

The final lesson is there will be no peace and the Israelis are as intractable as Hamas and you all will do what you do best which is fight and kill innocent people on both sides. Are one of you more moral than the other, well that depends on where you start, but to me I like to start in 48 and it all goes back to that. If the Israelis do not wish to accept responsibility for what they have done then there will never be peace. You can argue the inbetween stuff all you want, its a waste of time.

And she's not even ashamed to say it, but of course, why not..she's part of that society. That all rights are based on one being Jewish, and that even many of those Palestinians who are refugees, and have the right of return under Resolution 194 have no rights, and that Arab citizens will never have the same rights until they convert to Judiaism, even though all these people are the indigenous people of the land. All rights are based on being Jewish. And Margie is so very, very proud of that fact.

The lesson is not that there is no chance that Israel will agree to convert to Islam, but that the Palestinians will never have any rights recognized until they convert to Judiaism because this is the only way their rights will be recognized including the right of return which is what truly surprises me about this article. All rights are based on the premise of one being Jewish no matter where one comes from as long as they meet the criteria set down by Israel, or by way of conversion. Please, let's get the facts straight here.

...Focus on speaking without such a biased voice,, truly, this is a disgrace of an article... It may be disgraceful, but very reflective of the reality today, and therefore honest. Not every thing in this world is graceful, peaceful, pretty and full of high moral standard as how the ultra liberal left sees and what it tries to pull over world`s eyes. There is ugly reality and truth out there beginning with the radical Islam.

You've been fed many lies: "when the West failed to exterminate jews in second WW, they created to them a place (or grave) in Palestine for two reasons: - Cleaning the West from jews - Putting them in a sick lion`s mouth, so they can be sure they will not return back one day." The creation of Israel was well underway before WWII. it was actually well underway in the mind of the Worlds Jews before the first World War. The Balfour Declaration was in 1917. It serves no purpose, other than to sow confusion, to rewrite history such that Israel becomes something the European Christians did to the Muslim World. The Europeans were hardly instrumental to helping the Jews in pre-state Israel. Perhaps you have never been taught this, but there was severe restrictions on Jews in place by the British when it adminstered the area. For example, in 1930 the Peel commission made it illegal for a Jew to buy property in the madated area East of the Jordan River. It remains illegal to ths day

POLISH ANTI SEMITISM IS ALIVE AND WELL. YOU ARE PROOF OF THAT.

End your suffering--once and for all. REPENT, and be sure to repent before the right God. Obviously, you need the help. You don't know one god from another. There is but one God and it's not your Allah. REPENT!

Adrian....ignorance is at the heart of the problem...have you ever read the quran? probably not...so let me quote directly from it so you can be enlightened. 2:62 VERILY, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the christians, and the Sabians [49] -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. [50] This is one of many verses that speak of equality. I can also quote several verses from the old testament that command the killing of gentiles...So instead of quoting some neoconservative babble you recently heard on T.V why don't you go an search for some verses that command muslims to kill Jews and Christians and come back w/ something intelligent

Do you know your qurn????? I'd say no. Reason being that it it mentioned hundreds of times in the quran for muslims to kill Jews, Christians and infidels. Its is repeated through out the quran. So all your facts count for noithing.

Perplexed posing as Intellectuals. Hamas, Hizbulla are extensions of the Islamic Global Al qaeda mindset that is only interested in eliminating Israel and creating a Muslim caliphate through Jihad.It is not capable of adaptation or change other than as a deceptive change that will allow it to reach its goal of glories past. The prisoners document is a continuation of that deception and has no redeeming features. In fact it tows the Jihadist line. Abbas, Haniya, Meshal Nasralla, Barghoutti are all the same-Liers and cheats and terrorists. Just because one wears a suit does not make him civilized. The only way peace can be achieved in the Middle East is to create two states for two peoples. Jordan/Palestine on one Bank of the Jordan and Israel on the other. This will be created after Egypt under the Muslim Brotherhood attacks Israel and Israelis will realize that only buffer zones make good neighbours. Any other solution is bound to fail

From what you say, Pals must be stupid. They are acting against their own interests and doing what?s convenient for Israel.

Please make some sence in your arguments, you are so far off from the truth, i would guess that you where typing from Hell.

Yesha is Israeli land and is being offered up to the arabs as a potential way of arriving at a state of peace with the arab world. Whether it is a correct course of action or not is in debate, I think it's foolish, many here think it should be done. Where the cart comes before the horse is refering to Yesha as "palestinian land". It never was, it's land that wasn't taken away, it's land that never represented a "country" in any way shape or form. It's land that Egypt and Jordan took and made their own and then proceeded to lose in war to Israel. If there comes a time that Israel arrives at some kind of agreement with the arabs and cedes this land to them, then they can create a country on it. Until that time, calling it "palestinian" presupposes the outcome of deliberations.

Focus on speaking without such a biased voice,, truly, this is a disgrace of an article

you go first... you convert to islam o into an arab and then pals will follow you...

Le Maudit Anglais, True Christians, not those who assume the name, do not spread the gospel by war. You must have missed that in class.

Sorry, but I never saw your first response, still do not see one. The second one, although visible, is as full of anything as the first one. I must add, I never expected anything else. When encountering people who have to step even for the moment outside of the `get Bush/Likud box`, the conversations often become the comedy routine.

You either believe in ONE god, or you don't.Did not Allah-God create Ishmael? The Muslims believe that. You may have been absent from class on the days that they taught world history, and discussed how Christians have been converting...by the sword,gun...for at least 1700 years. Wake me when He comes.

The pot calling the kettle black. Jihadists want to force others to convert or kill them, they have sworn to murder Jews and Christians, and you accuse others of what they are doing.

How can Danite learn anything from a person who is always wrong? Besides, I thought that you said that you do not read my posts. It is like the bee that would claim disinterest in nectar. You really are pathetic, Liebchen. You should learn to dream a bit, to let go of that inner demon. Anyway, my wings are always there for you. You might just need them on occasion.

All this terrorism and violence is exactly what Israel wants. Like the United States in their wars with the Cherokees, Israel hates peace because without terrorism they would have no pretext to occupy and control the land they want to grab.

before the election.I have called Olmert a dummy many times and said that convergence is better than nothing but no replacement for negotiations.I remeber at the time you thought I was a "moderatly good thinker" but now I am non thinker according to you! Well heres why, you are too embarassed by your glaring errors concerning Hamas to admit it, therefore you must discredit the one who has made your errors clear to you.Please Ben Gurion you hold no mystery for me, you are a typical popmpous academic whos power trip is the supposed intellectual superiority he wields over others.All the great intellectuals were modest and respectfull people, you have the all the signs of the mediocre intellectual.The fact is I was right about Hamas and you were wrong.Sorry if you cant deal with that fact.But thats your problem not mine.

If my "non thinking" is the product of unconditional love then is your 'thinking " the product of a lack of love? Surely that passes the test of logic?? I notice how uncomfortable you are around any sign of emotion in yourself or others.Well that is your problem not mine.Back to the issue.Of course you continue in your errors despite the recent statements by Haniyeh, that is your problem not mine. My goals as I have stated 1000 times are as follows.israel should negotiate immediatly with abbas on a "deal in principle" with any signing and implementation dependant on a whole range of things which can be glossed over in your 'easy breezy" kind of way.As for hamas, I do not propose fighting them at all unless in self defense, why give them an evasion now that the spotlight is on them showing the world what they truly are.Once there is a deal in principle with abbas along Taba-Geneva lines then he will have something concrete to compete with hamas with.I supported negotiating with Abbas..

You see Mr. Thinker, every time 9/11 comes up when I argue with people like you, the first thing they always do is point at Bush and say: but he was entrusted to protect us and he failed. Until this day I hear that over and over, as well as much of the similar `thinking` (or realistically speaking the odor word), but I have yet to ever hear `great thinkers` like you to come up with the single solution that makes sense. Hence since your `thinking` formula is identical throughout the world, all of you `thinkers` will be demanding Israeli government accept the responsibility had something happened there. So it is best that you stay on this sites and `think` for us.

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Genesis 4:7 Accepted of God given Free-will. When we are met with opposition, we must question, Why? And the first question to God should be; Am I seeking Your Will or the will of the one who desires Your throne [be that myself or the Evil one]? And then, we must listen. When we accept for others, that which we are unable to accept for ourselves... we pray God's greatest mercy upon them and us; which is His revelation of Himself to us. And we look for it; Knowing, His is the POWER and the KINGDOM and the GLORY for-ever and ever, Amen.

DO YOU KNOW JEWS ARE DESCRIBED IN THE QURAN? WHAT ALL OF YOU ARE SAYING TODAY WAS SAID BY YOUR PEOPLE AGES AGO. THE QURAN EXPLAINS YOUR ARROGANCE MANY YEARS AGO. FACT1: ISLAM IS THE MOST GROWING FAITH ON EARTH. FACT2: WHAT GOES UP MUST GO DOWN. FACT3: MUSLIMS ALL OVER THE WORLD DO NOT NEED TO OCCUPY A LAND TO EXIST. TIME WILL TELL.

I have also sent contributions to some Muslims forums, which were never published, even though I wasn?t disrespectful and only asked questions. You are right about the growing resistance. The people are fed up with those supremacists.

Genetic studies done lately show that both Palestinians and Jews (from the man's side) originate from local mideastern populations (Canaanites) dating from about 4000 years ago. So we (Jews) and Palestinians are actually blood related (whereas the Palestinians are NOT related to most of the Arab world). So can we now stop the fighting and start doing something else?

A good example of the above in post # 90

"Mr Schiff`s article was OK. Yours not so. Your guides can not even be called perplexed. It can not be used, period. Not as long as you are under complete control of the psycho-maniacal spell from the word `Likud` and the most explosive knee jerk reaction every time it `haunts` your thought." - TonyL I must thank you for writing such a low level response. It contains no real thought, no insight, no argument, nothing to compare to observable facts. You have an opinion? Good for you. I need not argue about empty words.

Le Maudit Anglais, Allah is not the same God as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is worshipped by Jews and Christians. Jews are not trying to convert the world; True Chrisians are letting God convert the world through them in love. Moslems are trying to convert the world by the sword: "convert or die." Yes, this is correct: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 Peace through your coming Messiah (who has already come for Christians).

Anyone who has any notion of Arabs and Jews living in peace and harmony in Israel and Judea and Samaria should think hard and long at their folly. The Arabs will not allow Jews to have their instituations and a state.Also think hard and long at how many wars must it take for the Jews to have peace.Under current conditions what must Israel do to have peace other than dissolve itself and allow all Arabs to flood it. Are you Deluded Leftists prepared to do that? Land and your humanitarian gestures are getting us nowhere fast only more deaths and war and terror. Explain to me how the world is stopping Hamas and Hizgulla from rearming or Iran from Acquiring NW's

"They even include Jesus amongst the prophets" Really? And if Jesus was only a prophet, why was he saying he was the son of God? If he was saying he was the son of God, why do they think he's only a prophet? So no, Muslims and Christians/Jew's dont worship the same God.

If the Palestinians converted to Judaiism, it would solve a lot of problems. They would have instant aliyah. They might even be able to keep the two extra prophets, and their much more colourful prayer rituals...they could call themselves Reform Plus Jews. It really would not be that difficult, One God, no pork, and lots of money from Washington

I remember one leader who was maybe such a cynic as Hamas: he was Milosevic. Remember? Maybe plays and gambles can be useful for time to times but no for ever. One day, everybody wakes up and all games are over. Cynism is a short resource. It is not a winners strategy but the opposite. I read a lot of islamic Spain forums: they are doing real PROPAGANDA and they have iron-glove censorship of people opinions. They are not in their best: resistance is growing in Spain. Soon we will have news about it.

Thanks! Yes, it is a pity that Israel is so unyielding, but Hamas has to bend even more than it has. When you say Palestinians voted for Hamas because they supported it's Islamism,I disagree unless you mean Hamas dedication to the Islamic doctrine of charity. People voted for Hamas because of the widespread Fatah corruption and their complete arrogance. Also the Abbas regime had brought them nothing but more poverty and desperation.

"If hams is correct in assuming that only "resistance" (it is actually offense) is the only way to get concessions from israel, wouldnt Israel be correct in assuming that only continued pressure can force change in Hamas" - Danite The first thing you want to do is define some goals. At least that is what common thinkers do. (Remember the saying: Sof maase be'machashava te'chilah = the end action begins with a thought) Israel has to figure out what it wants. If it wants to fight Hamas to the end, it has been doing it for years, and can spend many more years doing it. It can also fight Hamas until Palestinian society breaks down and moves into civil war (This may be the coming state if the siege continues.) Bush is working this way in Iraq. It all depends on what you want to accomplish. Do you want to negotiate peace with Abbas and then see Hamas rejected by the people, or do you want to fight the windmills. Better not talk about thinkers. You are not used to thinking. I have to give it to you, though. You speak with confidence. This is no indication of correctness. Take Dumbya Bush, for example. A non-thinker with confidence. My theory: His parents gave him unconditional love. May be it worked with you too, but usually what you say has no/poor thinking behind it. P.S. I repeat my suggestion for going over Cipora?s posts. Almost always wrong, but framed as thought. Seek the error and ye shall find it.

I had no idea that Muslims do not worship the same god as Christians and Jews!They certainly seem to think they do, and even include Jesus amongst the prophets. You....the Cristians...on the other hand, believe that yours is the ONLY religion. According to your faith, Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 We...Muslims and Jews...know what that means. We have suffered terribly because of those who believe this.

You are speaking of uniting? What do you expect is going to happen when the Pope steps foot in Turkey in a month or so? Can you make an educated guess? I can. Selah!

Failing enlightened self-interest, the only pressure on Israel to make agreements is a humanitarian one. However, the Palestinians are naive to think that their own humanitarian conditions are likely to cause much anguish in Israeli (or US) circles. Hamas has failed pathetically in its bid to play hardball. Longer term, Israel really has to decide just what its vision for the future really is. If it wants to grab more and more land, as it has done continually for the past 60 years, it cannot reasonably expect much peace. This is a problem that the Israelis must sort out among themselves because there is no chance that the Palestinians will agree to become Zionists.

However, we all have a lot to gain from trying to understand one another. I consider myself in my heart somewhere on the point where judaism, christianism and islam find each other. On paper I am a statistic in katholicism. Religion is about to unite, not about to devide or 'to oppose to'. Evangelical christianism in the US seems to be about to oppose to. That's what i recently saw on tv.

Your analysis of the psychology of kidnapping is of course correct but you do not understand the close Jewish family structure or the psychology of Judaism where we are all guarantors for each other (arevim ze le ze). There is an unwritten and unspoken agreement between Israeli soldiers and the nation that we give everything to protect each other. (Talking about spelling: I found your spelling of 'kidnapping' strange since the stress is clearly on the second syllable)

If the Palestinians want to live in Israel so sincerely they should convert to Judaism and live good lives, fulfilling the mitzvot and they will be accepted with open arms in Israel.

I support the "love notes" initiative. But for the rest, your post just leaves me very dreamy. Especially the following comment: "Islam is only for the good, not the evil." You've got to wonder... By the way, does it mean that Ben Ladin, Zarquawi et al are only THINKING that they read the Quran ? Or do you consider them... "good" ? And I guess Hezbollah is "good" too, hmm ? Peace on those who deserve it indeed.

The post calling the kettle black. Jihadists want to force others to convert or kill them, they have sworn to murder Jews and Christians, and you accuse others of what they are doing.

"The West put you in the wrong place and is just using you as an instrument to fight us, they just look for your extermination because they know that we will be stronger soon, but they are wrong." No Algerian. They put us in the right place. Read your Koran. That is the land of Israel. To put it in your own logic. Israel exists because that is the will of Allah! Besides do you think Muslims are setting a good example in places today where there are no Jews? Darfur for example. Anytime, Muslims see people who they think are in rebellion, they just exterminate them. Well we had our good days and our bad days and the truth today is... we're going to find out real soon that today wasn't so bad when Iran begins dropping nukes on the Sunnis. Yeah, you need peace with the Jews because we're going to have to stick together when Iran begins to really throw it's weight around! Selah!

RIGHT. SOONER DEAD THAN HELLENIZED,SOONER DEAD THAN ROMANIZED, SOONER DEAD THAN CHRISTIANIZED, SOONER DEAD THAN RED, SOONER DEAD THAN GREEN MACCABIS, SIMON BAR KOCHBA, MORDECAI ANILEWICZ, ETC.

What bother me rather are spokes(wo)men for Israeli, native or foreign, who fail to observe the obvious swindle, and who justify a vicious land-grab, and a chronic state of induced pogrom in Palestinian territories, by talking about the Holocaust, of the morality of the Israeli cause, of God?s gift to a people chosen over all others to dwell in the Holy Land, of a right to that piece of land because history has singled out the Jewish people as victims, and they need a national refuge from hate. People like yourself, who entertain themselves maliciously while gloating at the spectacle of the vanquished killing each other, as the Romans did the enslaved gladiators in the Coliseum, cancel, as each sweet thrill over murder and mayhem courses through their limbs, their right to weep over Kishinev, Kristallnacht and a thousand other tragedies. As long as it is clear that we are dealing with state thuggery, national thievery, and machiavellian will to power, and not some ethical, legal or historic right, then I respect the sincerity of my adversary, even if I deplore the animal spirits that prompt his inhumanity.

You would be right if the Jews were occupiers but they arent. If you mind about occupiers, why dont you tell hamas and its colleagues.

Well, in order to establish the FACTS: If Allah knows that you are evil, it is impossible for you to read the Quran. You may THINK you are reading it but the truth is, if you are evil and have participated in the LIE that was used to establish your fundamentally corrupt, vicious and murdering regime...then you are BLIND. Sorry. Islam is only for the good, not the evil. I'm sure there are some good folks left in Israel...not many. Like those who held the hands of young children so they could write "love notes" to the poor Lebanese villagers whom you SLEW in COLD BLOOD. Peace on those that deserve it.

How did the jewish pepole fall in this huge mistake. The only people that proved extreme and non justifiable hatred towards jews are the westerners, when the West failed to exterminate jews in second WW, they created to them a place (or grave) in Palestine for two reasons: - Cleaning the West from jews - Putting them in a sick lion's mouth, so they can be sure they will not return back one day. The West transformed Jews from peaceful lovely people into bloody occupiers. Wake up Jews, don't chose to be our enemies, we are the only peole who did never harm jews. The West put you in the wrong place and is just using you as an instrument to fight us, they just look for your extermination because they know that we will be stronger soon, but tey are wrong, Moslems do never harm civilians when they open a land (read history: Jerusalem, Spain), not even chase them.

Point taken, gladly. Thank you.

You're a silly one. Quite the opposite, jews don't really care one way or another for those of other religions. Their way is not to convert the world to Judaism, like Islam or Christianity. Jews are'nt looking to turn the world into it's own domain, like the muslims seek to make the world Dar al Islam. As a matter of fact, the only thing that's important for the religious jews is that those people who are jewish abide by Jewish law. I think you've brainwashed yourself.

Human beings have strolled the earth for three million years. Ancient Egypt used to worship the sun god, RA, which makes an awful lot more sense that the latter day religions that worship what self proclaimed prophets wrote in books a handful of centuries aga. Don't you all think that all this superstitious mumbo jumbo should actually be examined now instead of blindly accepted or haven't we humans evolved out of the lizard land swamps that far yet? Ze'ev is just trying to make mischief to divert from the utter incompetence and lies of his precious IDF in the invasion and demolition of Lebanon based on lies and distortions. I have never, ever met a muslim who cares if I worship anything at all but every fringe dweller christian group sure do.

Johnson, you make a lot of sense about both sides having to first realize that they are stuck together to be able to compromise. You had me scurrying for the dictionary with the "termagant" thing. Love it whenever I can pick up a new word, thanks.

Don't worry...zionists are not fit to convert to Islam. Continue on with your racist, perverted, little looking-glass mirror...you're not welcome anywhere, much less in a mosque.

HAARETZ, SINCE EVERYONE LIKES TO READ YOUR ARTICLES & PARTICIPATE IN YOUR TALKBACKS.. PLZ TRY TO UNIFY PEOPLE AND DONT WIDEN THE SPREAD BETWEEN THE RELIGIONS..

So good to see someone knows their history. The only reason this land is called Palestine is because the Romans changed it to tickoff the Jews. The Israeli nation and the people who lived in Land of Cannan, namely the Philistians, were constantly fighting. So in an effort to cease the conflicts(which obviousily hasn't work then or now) they changed the name to Paliestian. This is the Land of the Jewish Nation and with God it will NEVER change. No matter what the PA, Iran, Syria or any other so called power tries to do. There will always be a Jewish presence in the Land of Israel.

Yankelowitz, il faut savoir aussi que les Juifs ont acheté beaucoup de la terre et que d'habitude les Arabes s'entretuaient et forçaient les perdants à changer de terre. Israël a gagné toutes les guerres menées contre lui mais n'a pas forcé tous les Arabes à s'en absentir... aujourd'hui je dirais malheureusement mais auparavant je disait heureusement. Toi aussi, va apprendre de l'histoire. C'était terre juive avant d'être terre chrétienne ou musulmane. Y, you have to realise that the Jews bought also the land and that generally the Arabs killed themselves and forced the losers to flee. Israël won all the wars waged against her and still did not force out all the Arabs from her midst. Today I would say unfortunatelly but before I said fortunately. You, too, need to go to read and to learn. Israël was Jewish land before it was ever Christian or Muslim.

The issue here is that Hamas doesnt want to recognize Israel because they are on jihad. This has to do with their religion. Jews (and others) were tried to be converted to Muslims, also by force. If there is no compulsion in Islam, how is it that people are forced to convert to it? How is it that if Muslims leave Islam they are executed?

Boker tov! Regards, Cipora

Thank you! Yes, Paul is very clear in 2 Cor 6:14. He knew our enemies well, and in the verses that follow, he nails almost everyone who will not love Israel or their God. He KNEW the power of Scripture, because he KNEW the author--the one who perfected his faith. Matthew 22:29 explains our dilemma today. Note Amos 3:3, giving us an icy reminder. The word for today?? READ, please, Hosea 6:4. Shalom!!

If hams is correct in assuming that only "resistance" (it is actually offense) is the only way to get concessions from israel, wouldnt Israel be correct in assuming that only continued pressure can force change in Hamas,who after all began "moderating" after the aid was cut off? I see despite the most recent declarations of Haniyeh you remain inlove with your delusions.You are really not a good thinker at all, a theorist perhaps but not a real thinker.

Hamas and Fatah cannot even agree on a common agenda for their people and how on earth are they going to negotiate peace with Israel. Stop wasting time with these bunch of spoil brats and giving in to their silly demands until they sort out their own problems in their own backyard. Pals, next time elect your government with your head and not your emotion. The world owes you nothing!!! So grow up and stop acting like a spoiled baby all the time!!!

No in Islam there is no compulsion, just cut off the Jew's head.

would be called philistia(further basterdized into palaistina) to dishonor the jews and obliterate their history.hence the name palestine.can any muslim in the world produce any credible evidence for their connection to the HOLY SITE,other than mohammed's dream? believe it or not, the one and only source for the muslim's claim to JERUSALEM and the site of the HOLY TEMPLE, is a mention in the koran of dream that mohammed had about on unknown PLACE FAR AWAY.perhaps this PLACE FAR AWAY is the site of the white house in washington dc.when a jew prays from anywhere in the world he faces the temple mount in jerusalem. when a muslim prays, even while in jerusalem, he faces mecca, saudi arabia.

"If there is popular demand, I will go thru the list" Not much demand I guess. Aren't we a bit full of ourselves?

thank you for the message.in the article can a palestinian muslim and a zionist jew be friends? what do you think of 2 corinthians 6:14...i went there, i upset some of them...by quoting verses of the bible....oh my, THE WORD OF GOD IS REALLY POWERFUL.

The idea has merit. C'mon ! Face it ! Then, we can finally hit back with full strength without having our arab brothers screaming "Wolf!". Then, we can go about our business and could even get mad at anybody saying anything about it or about our messiah (oops ! I meant prophet, of course) and inpunely burn a few embassies over the issue. And the best of all, who cares about democracy and human rights any more ? They were always just an impediment to achieving any solution anyway. Cooool !

You do not seem to realize that "fairminded" is not advocating a two-state solution, but replacing the state of Israel with a Palestinian state. I do not need to read any book to understand that a solution must be found for this conflict. Getting from the theory to a practical solution is the essence of the problem. As long as Hamas is in power, I see no solution. p.s. I sent you a post the other day regarding Golda Meir's quote, but it was not posted. I'll try again when I am not so tired.

Conversion is a man-made attempt to become acceptable to God. Muslims follow another god--not the God of Israel. It is time for EVERYBODY to get back to THE Book and repent. YES, REPENT. As Elijah called down fire on the altar, we will see that the Muslim god will not answer. AND if Israel wants to be saved from what is coming--Muslim fire--it better turn back to the God that answered the great prophet Elijah. Choose this day. Get before the right altar. And, REPENT!!!!

Mr Schiff`s article was OK. Yours not so. Your guides can not even be called perplexed. It can not be used, period. Not as long as you are under complete control of the psycho-maniacal spell from the word `Likud` and the most explosive knee jerk reaction every time it `haunts` your thought. The same reaction poor Mark Lincoln is experiencing with the word `Bush`. In my opinion when people begin to loud or serenade the cruel enemy that spends every moment planning all sorts of deceiving ways, direct and indirect ways to destroy you, and the main reason for this serenade is to `exorcise the demons` of these explosive worlds out of the mind by any means possible, even stooping as far as to rank such enemy to be of the higher moral quality, in my opinion they need to seek professional help.

"Israel (is) a recognized member of the United Nations, recognized as such by some 160 countries." (Cipora J.Kohn to #24) Yes, but for how long yet? Last month, I suggested you read "Battle of the numbers: Jewish minority by 2020", by S. Della Pergola, http://www.peacenow.org/hot.asp?cid=754 Remember? Let me remind you of his conclusion: "Israel as a Jewish and democratic society, cannot be preserved, unless strategic decisions are made concerning Israel's territorial definition." If these strategic decisions are not made, the sooner the better, then, when the day comes, in 14 years from now, and we begin to be more and more a minority between the sea and the river, what Mr/Ms Fairminded #24 is advocating will start to sound, I am afraid, unfair less and less, to the Israeli Jews who are still here, in the Land He Has Promised Us. This is why Ami Ayalon has said what he said. www.ajds.org.au/intifada/ayalon.htm

Boycott, are you reading the same Wikipedia that I read? According to Wikipedia (whom you supposedly quoted), Ancient Egyptian texts called the area 'Retenu.' Retenu's area in which modern Israel is located was called 'Djahy.' The Holy Scriptures call the area, 'Canaan,' or the 'land of the Hebrews,' and later, 'Israel, and even later, 'kingdom of Judea.' The word, 'Palestine,' comes from the word, 'Philistine. Later Josephus refers to Palestine at the coastal area. So are you mistaken or did you intentionally try to mislead the readers of this forum.

Schiff has come up with one of the most confused and incorrect articles in recent memory. About everything he says here must be corrected. If there is popular demand, I will go thru the list. For now, let me offer a general way of looking at things: 1. Hamas is an ideological movement which, due to its success, is now operating under real world pressures. Pressures causes evolution. Those who do not evolve die. Hamas showed itself to be adaptable in the past (when it got rid of the Khalifate ideology), and that's why Hamas is big while Islamic Jihad is small. (IJ is closer to the original beliefs of the Islamic brotherhood.) 2. The Prisoners' Document is a big evolutionary step for Hamas. It is willing to recognize Israel indirectly. Meshal and others are not yet willing to, but with wise application of world pressure, it will be adopted. Note that Meshal lives outside the PA and is subject to less pressure, so he can afford to be harder line. The people who suffered the most, prisoners, were the ones who came up with the Document. (Two cheers for Darwin.) 3. Palestinians voted for Hamas not because they support its Islamism. But they rejected Fatah corruption and lack of results. If after a peace agreement with Abbas, Hamas continues to reject it, they will also be removed from power. One should not think of making peace with Hamas, but with the Palestinian people. Hamas will adapt or die. 4. The Palestinians are correct in their assessment that only the path of ?resistance? can generate concessions from Israel. This is unfortunate, due to lack of wisdom in Likud, but a true fact.

You wrote:"when the Jews were persecuted by the Christians in Medieval times they fled to Muslim countries who welcomed them with open arms and that is why there were Jews all over the Muslim countries at that time living peacefully among Muslims" Can you name one such country and what were the rights of the Jews there?

are you like, 12?

'-The bloody clashes between Hamas and Fatah in the Palestinian Authority, in which innocent bystanders make up the majority of the casualties, offers some important lessons.' should be -The bloody clashes between Hamas and Fatah in the Palestinian Authority, in which innocent bystanders make up the majority of the casualties, OFFER some important lessons. ie 'clash (singular) offers', 'clashes (plural)offer', same as 'HE (singular)offers, THEY (plural) offer'. that's a point of grammar. you're arguing syntax.

Islam will not cease to try to manipulate , intimidate and dominate Israel and the world into Submission ( Islam ) -hence terrorism , murder bloodshed and mayhem will continue as they attempt to impose their will upon the world - until they are defeated by G-D of the universe , The G-D of Abraham , Isaac , Jacob and Israel , The Holy One of Israel , on the mountains of Israel . See Yechezkel ( Ezekial ) chapters 38and 39 The strangers , pals etc. would do well to obey G-D'S command to dwell at peace and under Israel's sovereignty and be built up in the land by G-D .

Strangers , pals etc. are commanded to dwell at peace and under Israel's sovereignty , then G-D will build them up in the land . If they will not He will destroy them and all the evil neighbours who hate Israel and the Jewish people . See Yirmeyahu ( Jeremiah ) 12 : 14-17 Pals choose Life and peace .

In Arabic, Filasteen (فلسطين) has been the name of the region since the earliest medieval Arab geographers (adopted from the then-current Greek term Palaestina (Παλαιστινη), first used by Herodotus, itself derived ultimately from the name of the Philistines), and Filasteeni (فلسطيني) was always a common adjectival noun (see Arabic grammar) adopted by natives of the region, starting as early as the first century after the Hijra. Wikipedia

You recognize the undisputed facts that Jews were killed (You say because of treason!!!). True Jews could sometimes escape Christians and Arabs gave them shelter on the condition of being 2nd class citizen some 300-500 years later; still Jews are grateful and some will perpetuate the Judeo-arab culture in Israel, integrated part of the Israeli culture now. Nevertheless 900,000 Jews had to escape Arab countries and today there are very few Jews or none left there. Jews do not hate muslims, they keep high their common inheritage but the contrary seems the case.

What it comes down to is that Hamas, and much of the PA, have no plans to compromise. Indeed, has the so called moderates in the PA back off of any of their "red lines?" The Arabs will offer tactical deals, but have shown a willingness to take back their solemn word when they want. They still insist on total withdrawal to the Armisters line of 49. They still insist on the right of return. The first would create the borders that lead to the 67 war. The latter would flood Israel with millions of hate fill Arabs. The result is suicide. Israel, on the other hand, gives land and releases terrorist that often cannot be retracted. While Israel is currently back in the West Bank and Gaza, only because of ongoing terror, the world insists that this is temporary. Have we forgotten that the original Oslo agreement did not agree to any of these demands? We constantly give up on our "re lines," but the Arabs don't.

"when the Jews were persecuted by the Christians in Medieval times they fled to Muslim countries who welcomed them with open arms and that is why there were Jews all over the Muslim countries...." The Jewish communities in India, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Morocco, and Syria predate Islam by centuries. Like in Israel, Jew are there because they and their culture are from that part of the world. Jews do not live where they do only because the Muslims have been gracious enough to welcome them as guests.

Someone with brains.The declarations of Haniya today have made the point crystal clear.So goodbye "different wings" of Hamas theories, goodbye 'they are moderating" goodbye "Darwin" hello to the reality.hamas is an unrepentant obscurantist reactionary fanatic ego centric religious fundamentalist dogmatic anti semitic organisation whos raison detre is really based in fundamentalist islam.They can concieve of no other way of life, no other way to relate to reality.They would rather crash and burn and take everyone with them as for them "a world without Islam is not worth living in and a palestine without Hamas is not worth having" That is the long and the short of it.I hope those of you have been in denial about what any serious student of history could identify with one glance will now come to terms with reality.Hamas will fight to the end before they change.They are true believers not a regular political party.

The men from the Jewish tribe were not killed because they refused to convert to Islam. Your ignorance of history makes you look bad. The proof is that they lived together with Musilms side by side until that tribe committed treason against the Muslims. And hence, the men who participated in this treason were executed for political reasons. Remember this (or learn it if you do not know), when the Jews were persecuted by the Christians in Medieval times they fled to Muslim countries who welcomed them with open arms and that is why there were Jews all over the Muslim countries at that time living peacefully among Muslims. Sam, I ask you to admit that you no nothing about such history and you only make statements out of your blind hate to Muslims.

I dont believe a word you write ,because man of my poeple were there already.5%---5%laughing

Eight short, very simple to understand, so brightly visible lessons in reality. Granted they had been there since at least Oslo days, `screaming and waiving` at everyone who truly WANTS to see and understand the situation. Than make up an unbiased, non liberal/humanist template agenda, non Israeli bashing or pride and honor of Islam filled, an intelligent conclusion. Granted the Pals had been the Islamic tool of Israeli tormentment for so long, even if there are few, very weak winds of change or voices trying to be heard here or there and from time to time, presently it is not nearly enough to make the dent into something that deeply rooted.

No, they just killed Jews, Christians, and Pagans who lived in the area. Mohammed thought them not worthy at that time. It was centuries after Mohammed that the Arab leaders developed the Islamic Religion from his writings and writings of others.

You seem to left God out of the picture. He is the one who gave all of the land of Palestine to Israel and much more besides. The Arabs took the land they now own in the middle east by the sword from the seventh century on.

If the Palestinians continue to go down the path of radical Islamic fundamentalism their cause is hopeless. The world will not support another failed state that allows the radical Islamists to rein terror on its neighbors. radical Islam will go down and take the Palestinians with them when they go.

You advocate the dessolution of Israel, a recognized member of the United Nations, recognized as such by some one hundred and sixty countries, and you call that fairminded?

My point was to construe the literal meaning of Mr Schiff's words. He says quite explicitly that it was a policy to create civil war, even at the cost of killing innocent bystanders. That a senior commentator with very good connections admits that this is the game plan is important for understanding what is going on. 'Arabs' have nothing to do with this. The issue is, how long must a people be collectively punished, starved and battered? What rationality exists in a policy which foments civil war. It cannot be to elicit a growth in rational understanding. But rather to push Palestinians into such straits of desperation that they will resort to terror, and by that resort, prove they are terrorists who must be punished collectively.

"Final lesson: The current bloody conflicts in the Middle-East indicate once again that Israel is far from ready to forsake its religious principles, which say there shall be no relinquishing of the Jewish holy lands upon which the Arabs sit. This is a problem that the Israelis will have to resolve among themselves - because there is no chance that Arabs will agree to convert to Judaism. "

According to Sharia law, waging of a Holy War of Extermination (Jihad) against infidel nations is every devout Muslim's command, with infidels to be given 3 choices: (a) Embrace Islam; (b) Submit to Islamic rule as oppressed Dhimmi minority (so-called Binational State); (c) Face death and destruction. There are only 2 ways to prevent this: (a) Decisively defeat and expel Arab attackers beyond insurmountable boundaries (happened in history only in Iberia, Sicily, Malta); (b) Sign a temporary truce (Hudna) which Arabs are allowed for up to 10 years, until strong enough to renew attacks and offer above 3 choices again (back to square 1!). Hamas leaders would rather eat Pork than break above Sharia commands! If they do, their verdict would be certain death. Just like Sadat, or as Arafat warned at Camp David II. There you have it: Entire foundation of Arab-Israel conflict (and War on Terror) explained in less than 20 lines. Everything else is just empty talk!

60 years ago 80% of the land that now comprises Israel, Gaza , and the West Bank was owned by Britain. Before that it was owned by Turkey. It is complete fiction that individual Arabs owned 95% of the land. Of the land that was owned by individuals, about 7% was owned by Jews, 7% was owned by local Arabs, and 7% was owned by Arab families that lived in Jordan, Egypt, and/or Syria. Case in point. When Israel left the settlements in Gaza, there was an accounting in which it was determined that only 7% of the land that comprised the settlements was actually held, in title, by actual Arab citizens. Most interestingly, not an inch of that land (now in Palestinian hands) has been returned to those owners. I believe it is you who is starting to "fool around with historical facts and figures". Care to refute or comment?

Schiff has come up with one of the most confused and incorrect articles in recent memory. About everything he says here must be corrected. If there is popular demand, I will go thru the list. For now, let me offer a general way of looking at things: 1. Hamas is an ideological movement which, due to its success, is now operating under real world pressures. Pressures causes evolution. Those who do not evolve die. Hamas showed itself to be adaptable in the past (when it got rid of the Khalifate ideology), and that's why Hamas is big while Islamic Jihad is small. (IJ is closer to the original beliefs of the Islamic brotherhood.) 2. The Prisoners' Document is a big evolutionary step for Hamas. It is willing to recognize Israel indirectly. Meshal and others are not yet willing to, but with wise application of world pressure, it will be adopted. Note that Meshal lives outside the PA and is subject to less pressure, so he can afford to be harder line. The people who suffered the most, prisoners, were the ones who came up with the Document. (Two cheers for Darwin.) 3. Palestinians voted for Hamas not because they support its Islamism. But they rejected Fatah corruption and lack of results. If after a peace agreement with Abbas, Hamas continues to reject it, they will also be removed from power. One should not think of making peace with Hamas, but with the Palestinian people. Hamas will adapt or die. 4. The Palestinians are correct in their assessment that only the path of ?resistance? can generate concessions from Israel. This is unfortunate, due to lack of wisdom in Likud, but a true fact.

I THOUGHT YOUR THINKING IS SHARPER THAN WHAT I READ???

You have Big Ones, coming here and opening your electronic mouth. To save your City Monuments, the French Committed Genocide on our people. Your opinion means nothing to me. PS- Good Job in Lebanon in the 1980's, you French Coward.

"Submission"? I'd rather die. Good luck killing me, zealots.

As we have learned from the latest cave flashes of Zawahiri and Co., we are being given the choice to convert or die by having our heads cut off.This in a nut shell is radical Islamic fundamentalism. Believe me, if they have their way all of the Jews in Israel will be headless. Our commitment to defeating them must be equal to their commitment to kill us.

This is the relevant history for the past 80 years. There ARE two states on historic Palestine: Israel and Jordan Palestine. Of course, unless you use maps which include Syria and Lebanon or at least parts of them in Historic Palestine. Jews have made up the majority or plurity of Jerusalem, INCLUDING E JErusalem for at least 160 years.

Ah the ever myopic Mr. Schiff. He recognizes "there is a debate within Hamas between the ideological and the pragmatic". Thanks for that spectacular insight Mr. Schiff. Can Schiff name the country whos political organizations speak with one voice, hold one opinion, are united? Schiff writes of lessons, try this one Schiffster: walk a mile in the other guys shoes. In the meantime donnez moi un break.

You better say "YOUR STOLEN LAND" FACT The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C.E., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what are now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century C.E., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from this Latin name.3 The Hebrews entered the Land of Israel about 1300 B.C.E., living under a tribal confederation until being united under the first monarch, King Saul. The second king, David, established Jerusalem as the capital around 1000 B.C.E. David's son, Solomon built the Temple soon thereafter and consolidated the military, administrative and religious functions of the kingdom. The nation was divided under S

To 7, you are mistaken because if Arabs get some new weapons, Israel will do too, so this cannot tilt the balance. To govern, one must be realistic. Recognize the Jewish state and cooperate to the good of all in the region. Everybody will win. At least try a new policy. To 1. If israel/US policy succeeded as you note (I do not believe that it was a policy) then Arabs should have some response.They have 25+ countries, and there is no reaction, except for internal fight! Your mail tend to show Arabs as children which I do not believe. Some leaders may be corrupt, but they are good politicians. To 25.Israel is Jewish land, recognized by the world, even by some Arab countries. Your numbers are meaningless, the partition plan was conducted by a UN commission and Arabs are not a minority at the UN, on the contrary.

They dont have to realise...muslims think the whole world will convert to Islam. We all saw the gunpoint force conversion of the journalists in Gaza...

"The issue here is land not religion. Jews existed in the time the prophet Mohamed, no one tried to convert them to muslims in medina. In ISLAM there NO COMPLUSION." Oh no? The Jews were killed as ordered by Mohamed because they refused to convert to his religion

very unfortunate and shallow analysis of the situation. The history, the reality and the present situation of the Palestinian-Israeli situation negate every single sentence written by Mr Schiff. the only real aspect of this article is a philosophical one : we all need a degree of delusion to survive, and Mr Schiff is no exception.

How about you go back more than 50 or 100 years, why not 500 or 2000? Its a given that this land once belonged to the people of Israel, and that it was raped an pillaged a number of times. So if you want to talk about history, I suggest you talk about all history, not just the past 100 years.

I invite you to read Israel Finkelstein book : "The bible unveiled" Then you can speak the truth, no bullsh.. ! Wonder why there has been so many tales about jewish history. I understand much better now. You all must have from Marseilles (south of France), where 1 gram becomes 1 kilogram and everything is amplified !

How can soe people here be so ignorant ?! 60 years ago, here are the figures : In 1945, there was : - 1,24 millions Arabs who owneed 95% of the land - 550.000 Jews (30% of the population) who owned 5% of the land However, in 1880, the was : - 450.000 inhabitants in Palestine - of which 24.000 Jews (5%) Don't start to fool around with historical facts and figures, because no one will believe you for all the other tales... You better start reading !

You better say "YOUR STOLEN LAND" ! In 1947, as per David ben Gurion who recognized it, jews only owned 5% of Palestine. All the other land has been stolen ! No one stealing anything can go to heaven... Hell will be the only issue...

Islam on religion preaches 'to you your religion to me mine' so no prob with Islam if Israelis do not convert, no one is asking them to. What Israelis must understand and realize, however, is that in history, in private life or state life, no one has ever been able to establish permanent roots on ursurped land. Israelis are not required to quit the land, the Palastininans would accept them as fellow citizens with equal rights and religious freedom, of the State of Palestine, inhabited by Muslims, Christians and Jews. The alternatives to above are too horrendous to even think of.

"In ISLAM there NO COMPLUSION." Yeah, and that's why you have the terms "Sword of Islam" and Dar e;-Harb, "the House of War", i.e., the land as yet unconquered by Islam. Very peaceful and noncompulsory religion, that Islam.

Let's persuade all the Palestinians to convert to Judaism. That way the Palestinian "refugees" can exercise their "right of return" as new olim (immigrants) and be accorded all rights and privileges accorded to new olim. Their children will all attend Jewish schools, they will have Jewish weddings, attend Jewish sytnagogues and desert the mosques. The Palestinian problem will then have been solved.

"Sixty years ago the land that you speak of was Palestine", Palestine being a British Mandate inhabited by Palestinian Jews and Palestiniana Arabs. There had never been an independent country of Palestine, nor had Palestine even been called by that name ever since the fall of the Roman Empire, which gave it that name. So what's your point, Natalie?

"It means, in English, that the joint financial and military siege has plunged Palestine into an early phase of civil war, and this event is to be regarded as a success." Does that bother you, guv? Tsk tsk.

Schiff has come up with one of the most confused and incorrect articles in recent memory. About everything he says here must be corrected. If there is popular demand, I will go thru the list. For now, let me offer a general way of looking at things: 1. Hamas is an ideological movement which, due to its success, is now operating under real world pressures. Pressures causes evolution. Those who do not evolve die. Hamas showed itself to be adaptable in the past (when it got rid of the Khalifate ideology), and that's why Hamas is big while Islamic Jihad is small. (IJ is closer to the original beliefs of the Islamic brotherhood.) 2. The Prisoners' Document is a big evolutionary step for Hamas. It is willing to recognize Israel indirectly. Meshal and others are not yet willing to, but with wise application of world pressure, it will be adopted. Note that Meshal lives outside the PA and is subject to less pressure, so he can afford to be harder line. The people who suffered the most, prisoners, were the ones who came up with the Document. (Two cheers for Darwin.) 3. Palestinians voted for Hamas not because they support its Islamism. But they rejected Fatah corruption and lack of results. If after a peace agreement with Abbas, Hamas continues to reject it, they will also be removed from power. One should not think of making peace with Hamas, but with the Palestinian people. Hamas will adapt or die. 4. The Palestinians are correct in their assessment that only the path of ?resistance? can generate concessions from Israel. This is unfortunate, due to lack of wisdom in Likud, but a true fact.

Neither will anyone else that uses common sense. Israel is the root of three religions and only two are even close. One is Judaism which I consider to be the best, the other is Christianity which at least trys to follow G-Ds plan. Islam is a religion that took parts of both the other two and made a religion that worships a rock to be honest.

Someone who has brains.This is the exact situation with Hamas.The prisoners document contradicts every early signed agreement and established principles.it is document meant to forstall civil war and paper over internal differences.The demands of Hamas are so obviously mendacious that even a child could see it.Yet the wishfull thinking goes on and on and on.There is form of dementia and cretinism involved with this whole discusion about Hamas.They are the problem not the solution.

palestinians are acting like bunch kids; Palestinians disapointed me.

Does it help to solve the problem if the entire palestinian population convert to Judaism? Now instead of Right if return they will have Alyia!

True. It is a lie that is perpetuated by Arab Supporters that Palestine was all Arab and Palestinians. Those who know history know better. If we want to go further back in time, Israel as a nation occupied that area. In the first century after Christ, most of the current Arab lands were occupied by Christians and pagan inhabitants. After the sixth century, the Arabs took the land by the sword. What eventually stopped them was the empires of non-moslem Babylon, Greco-Macedonian, and the Romans, and later, the crusades, rightly or wrongly. The Jews always wanted to return to Palestine and they have done so all the centuries until now.

After reading this article i'm glade i live in a country far away from the Middle East,and i'm sure that the Muslims and Jews living here feel safe and content being here to. There is no way that Humas can achive the aim of Jews converting to Islam or vice versa,and should be viewed in the same way as both should convert to the True Faith The Roman Catholic Church,come on all you sinners join the RC.

Many Israelis like many Americans underestimate the serious nature of radical Islamic plans to turn us all into Muslims or kill us if we resist.Some try to explain the simple truth away by blaming Israel's occupation of this or that territory for ongoing violence or the US's support of Israel's anti-terrorist measures as the cause of what's happening.The bottom line is as Schiff states, Hamas like Al Qaeda and others of thei ilk have plans to expand a radical Islamic caliphate across the Middle East, to Europe, and even to North and South America. With Iran drawing countries like Syria and Venezuela into the radical Islamic Axis they are making progress or at least creating outposts that will support their efforts against the US and allies. While the left and right wings in the west squabble among themselves about the war effort, the radicals are not only continuing to attack but they are increasing in numbers on their side. Underestimating their will to succeed is a huge mistake..

the cubans revolted against the batista regime because of its inequalities, corruption and brutality.it was a proxy government (batista's coup being 'approved' by the us). those cubans who run and fund the cuban opposition (for example the bacardi's)are descendants of the beneficiaries of that system. they want what they had back, but the motivation is not for the 'value of liberty.' the resistance in the territories is indeed often misguided and frequently self-defeating, but certainly not misplaced (despite gaza).

Terrorism brings positive results for the terrorists. Kidnapings confer benefits on the terrorists. When their plys succeed, then they are used repeatedly. Despite disclaimers, it seems that eventually the Israelis always respond to kidnapings by ultimately engaging in exchanges. This encourages the practice of kidnaping. Nothing succeeds as does success. When the Israelis stiffen their backbones and accept the loss of the kidnaped person as irretrievable, rather than "negotiating and meeting the demands of the kidnapers, then the kidnapings shall diminish if not cease. It is reidculous to meet the demands of kidnapers and then expect the kidnapers to abandon a successful practice. Think about it. do you suffer a loss now, or incur a multiple of that loss on an ongoing basis.

Mr. Schiff, good article, but to nitpick on an immaterial point, I believe that the spelling of "supercede" is "supersede" with an "s" used in the common spelling rather than the "c." Sorry for the distracting reference to ortohgraphy, but the information imparted is intended to be constructive as the spelling seemed to be intentional rather than a typographical error. Thanks for your analysis.

The relationship between the Israelis and the Arabs with whom they interact is similar to a marriage to a termagant. There is no way to propitiate the woman. Each effort at accommodation is rejected as insufficient, lacking in some respect, and even if all of her conditions are met, she will find other bases to be disagreeable. The search for a "solution" that would enable both parties to cohabit peacefully, is futile,as there is no satisfying one of the parties. There is no "divorce" possible, because of the proximity, so that separation cannot be achieved. The dissatisfied party will continue trying to inflict harm on the other. The realization must be had, that the best of all pssible worlds achievable, is not Eden, but instead a world fraught with peril and continuing conflict. Once that realization is accepted, then the necessity of making the best of a bad situation is the focus, and you cease to comrpomise yourself in a futile effort at a new beginning. The world is as it is

In the tiny principality of Lichtenstein each village can vote to accept people as citizens and for a limited period after a fixed number of years of residency. It keeps everyone very quiet and polite and law abiding knowing that they can lose all the privileges of citizenship.

The ONLY conversion thats needed is for moderate arabs or muslims to see sufficient value in democracy that they will stand and face their leaders and bring about change. Iranian moderates talk about it but do nothing about it.The Lebanese the same.Abbas the same. At the end they turn back and accept their own devils as better than the western devil. Even muslims in America,who live in relative freedom and most would not give that up still spiritually support antiquated,racist and anti western policies of the totalitarian countries. Very unlike the Cubans in Miami. This is the conversion thats needed.That they will see value in the independence enough that they will fight for liberty. Its time muslims looked at this aspect to make the world a better place. This is the kind of conversion thats needed instead of them thinking the lie that the west is out to get them for they are muslim.

All this convoluted reasoning obscures the simple solution. Liquidate terrorists, their leaders and their supporters in an ever increasing crescendo until shalit is released and they beg for peace. The enemies of the jews are not chasing their tails, they know what they are doing they are focused. Time for jews to focus on liquidating their enemies.

The issue here is land not religion. Jews existed in the time the prophet Mohamed, no one tried to convert them to muslims in medina. In ISLAM there NO COMPLUSION.

The title link on the home page, "Palestinians must realize that Israel will never convert to Islam", is surely one of the most inane ever to appear there. What it has to do with this article is a mystery.

is that this commentator has not learned any and so certainly cannot teach any.

Why go back only 60 years? 2,000 years ago the land was Judea, the Jewish kindom, and many believe it will be so again. By the way, when 60 years ago you said "Palestinian" it meant a Palestinian Jew. Arabs were just Arabs back then.

1: ultimately they are an organization that shares political ambitions (otherwise why would they have run?). their constitution, when written, was defined by an occupation. the occupation is about land and control. religion began to play along as the occupation deepend. think of hamas as kadima and shas combined. 2: terror(ism) is the random act of violence aimed at fulfilling a political goal. resistance is the act of undermining the rule of law and governance if it the rule of law and governance is considered so unjust that no other means are available. israeli conservatives, followed closely by the bush administration, have blurred the line between resistance and terror to support an agenda that they wish to impose to legitimize their goals. 3: olmert has taken two local conflicts specific to israel and linked them to bush's failed 'war on terror' in the hope of blending them. it has made resolution of either infinately more complicated and globalized the conflic

Ofcourse, someone with the know how and the money, perhaps a Steven Spielberg will have to run with this. Remember the film with Jim Carrey, entitled The Truman Show? He was unaware until the end that he was living in an entirely artificial world. Well the Neo-Cons may not have been entirely right about Iraq and introducing democracy but in this case it might work. Now where I live, many of the doctors and veterinarians happen to be Muslim. When I go to see them, whatever I am and whatever they are has no importance. Like the Neo-Cons I think the American example is a good one. So let's try this. Let's create an artificial town and bring Jews and Palestinians from the ME together over here, but under American laws. They have to submit voluntarily to become peaceloving and obediant to our system. They have to put behind whatever happened to their brother or their cousin. Make it a 6-month program. Do it one group at a time and then return them to the Wild Wild ME! Selah!

Sixty years ago the land was not Palestinian. It was a mixed country, with both an Arab and Jewish population.

I wonder if there would be supporters on one side of the political spectrum for the following idea: contrary to the last point of Schiff, all Israeli Jews convert to Islam. Of course the way the Marranos did it in the past, so everything could be solved “peacefully”. Last week Sheikh Abu Saqer, leader of an outreach movement in Gaza, said that the only dialogue possible is the one in which all religions will agree to convert to Islam. At least supporters from the well-known movement “Peace for our time” should welcome this solution.

Sixty years ago the land that you speak of was Palestine. There are many Palestinians that think that it will be so again. Although it doesn't seem so plausible in the current state of affairs, the future is a long and unknown path. There will be weapons available that will effectively equalize Hamas or Hizbollah with Israel. Anything can happen.

If you would, please elaborate on your second point,(lesson), where you write,:"hamas should understand the benefits of recognizing israel and do it out of self-interest." If, out of RELIGIOUS conviction, Hamas is dedicated to the demise of Israel, just what do you propose to change their so-called "understanding" ??? In "lesson" #3, how are terror and resistance not the same (to Hamas) ?? "Lesson" #7 points to Olmert as the culpable individual for all the Middle East woes. Is this realism or scape-goating for an inconveniently more complex reality ??? Yishai Cohen, seemingly radical to most posters here on Haaretz talkback, is more and more cogent and understandable in light of the unrelenting islamist benightedness.

Giving others- usurpers, OUR land can NEVER bring peace, and NOBODY ultimately benefits. Until people realize this fact, there can never be peace.

1: the siege has further impoverished the palestians of both west bank and gaza. rebuilding the economy will now take longer, ensuring that the prospects of a strong partner are further off. 2: forcing hamas to recognize israel will not cure the root cause. hamas should understand the benefits of recognizing israel and do it out of self-interest. 3: terror attacks and resistance are not the same thing 4: the are two hamas' - the exiled organization and that in gaza (and to a lesser degree wb). 5: hamas understandably doesn't see the current administration as a sincere partner for dialogue. like hamas, the israeli government has consistantly failed to create the conditions for peace. 6: the siege of gaza is further radicalizing and de-centralizing the palestinian organizations, ensuring the future conditions for peace are even further off. 7: by escalating the situation in both gaza and lebanon, olmert has made a local incident a matter for the region.

-The bloody clashes between Hamas and Fatah in the Palestinian Authority, in which innocent bystanders make up the majority of the casualties, offers some important lessons. Lesson number 1 is that the international financial and economic siege of the Hamas government, which is being led by the United States, is succeeding. -The first paragraph means, paraphrased:- internecine warfare between Fatah and Hamas, occasioning mainly innocent civilian casualties, teaches us that the international financial and economic siege (paralleling Israel?s military siege) has achieved its aims (succeeded). It means, in English, that the joint financial and military siege has plunged Palestine into an early phase of civil war, and this event is to be regarded as a success. Say no more, guv.