Jews also have a Nakba

There were some instances where Arabs persuaded Arabs to leave [and what about incidents like Deir Yassin where Jews clearly wished to spread rumour of even greater atrocities than had taken place]and no one denies this. What any objective historian does not deny [as opposed to a hasbara addict who despises truth] is that the vast majority of Arabs who left, left for genuine reasons of fear for their lives [as opposed to reasons manufactured by their leaders] and in many instances because Jewish troops moved them out at gunpoint. So what you propose as the truth is merely a snapshot-an unrepresentative one at that. Essentially lies and half truths. But being a propagandist that wouldn't really bother you would it?

or statehood. Nor is the USA responsible for the Arab NO peace etc resolution of Khartoum. The settlements followed that Arab resolution. Nor is the USA responsible for the vile racist outpourings and incitement from the Hamas govt media that indicate what they really want.

to those that rejoiced at nine eleven

Peace has it's risks, but as it is now there is no positive future for the State of Israel, we are loosing our soul & our decency more each day....

The use of the term NAKBA is just tasteless. And....then to expect the palestinians to just disapear because the Jews where run out of Europe, is illogical, selfish, myoptic. What about this do Ashkanzis not understand? The Arabs who lived on this land will not just go away because you will them to. Israel is going to to have to make peace with this. I think well educated Israelis know this as well, as do American Liberal Jews. Better to accept the Arabs as Gods children than wish them ill, and send your children off to war. Ask any American about the Indians, Mexicans and Blacks...one has to accept "OTHER" or one is defeated

"You need not dig for Arab artefacts. You see them in broad daylight on the temple mount," Says Axel. The Caliph hired a Byzantine architect to put up Al Quds, Dome of the Rock. So, you would be more correct to say that the artifacts on the foundation of the Jewish Temple are Christian, not Muslim. The reason for contracting out this important work can be seen today in Mecca. Not to denigrate the holiness of the structure, but the average kindergarten kid could come up with a better architectural concept than the kaaba.

"The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the UN and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders do not give a damn whether Arab refugees live or die", -- Ralph Galloway, former head of UNWRA, 1956 "The Arab Exodus was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by the Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews. For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties to the enemy." -- The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953

Why should they? Maybe if you research censuses done in what is now Israel and the territories it occupies known as the Palestinian territories, you'd realize the Palestinian ARABs were the majority of this land called Israel until Israel was created. It really drives Israel nuts that more Palestinians can claim longer linneages to this land than Israeli Jews who come from Europe, Russia, New York, etc.

Israel expectations from Oslo was that it could relieve itself of ruling the gentile population (Palestinians) in the territories and have a proxy rule it. In other words, Israel was still the boss and ruled the Palestinian people indirectly by use of the P.A. Oslo culminated in Camp David which finally revealed Israel's main intentions all along. NO SOVEREIGN, CONTIGIOUS, VIABLE Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as a capital. LEGALIZED GHETTOS is what Israel preferred. Thank you Lord, Arafat's final decision visa ve negotations with Israel was the right call and he did not compromise inalienable Palestinian rights.

You are really hillarious. The UN has not even managed to control a tin-pot country like Zimbabwe with its insane leader, or the other hell-holes like the Sudan, or Rwanda, or Burma, the list goes on. The UN could not manage its way out of a paper bag, or organise a chicken raffle at a pub. It is arguably also the most corrupt political body on earth. Don't make us laugh

The current headline story on English Al Jazeera is Osama bin Laden's latest 10 minute tape. As usual, there is a method of submitting a comment, but there are no comments posted on this or any other story. Par for course in Islamic journalism. So, Labhras, you have posted a misleading comment, as usual. Thank you for proving my point.

how blind can you be. You say that Israel has not taken any steps toward peace? What was the entire Gaza fiasco, other than a dream by leftist Israelis to peace with a neighbor that doesn't even recognize your existance. Until all elements of the Palestinian world recognize the right of a free Jewish State in Israel, there is nothing to discuss with any Palestinian leadership!!!!!

Tell me - was Spain justified in expelling its Jews in 1492? If not, what's the difference between Spain expelling its Jews and Israel expelling its Palestinians? I understand you are a zionist and don't believe the rules that apply to everyone else apply to Jews, but answer my question anyway.

This is exactly what Palestinians expected from the Oslo accords in their own words: ""We might return to the 1967 borders by diplomacy, but we won't return to the 1948 borders by diplomacy. The 1948 borders - no one on earth recognizes as ours. Therefore, we shall return to the 1967 borders, but we have not given up on Jerusalem and Haifa, Jaffa, Lod, Ramle, Netanya and Tel Aviv. Never...! "[Your fathers' blood] shall curse anyone who will concede a grain of earth of those villages. The land of Palestine will demand that the Palestinians return as Muhammad returned - as conquerors."" [Ibrahim Mudayris, PA TV, February 4, 2005] No wonder Oslo "accords" have failed.

Who created the false equation that perpetual arab terrorism equals peace for Israelis? And how did Israelis ever swallow this preposterous & lethal lie? The truth is we never swallowed it...it was force fed to the nation, and those who rejected it were demonized & then dealt with swiftly & severely. Well, the lie has been exposed & few Israelis remain under its spell. Arab oil has always trumped Israeli interests on the international agenda, but Israel is responding appropriately at last to our unrepentant ancient foes & their cheerleaders in much of the media & on the lunatic fringe. They can only chase us if we run, but Israel finally is standing fast. Happy New Year, Israel !

Yes, the Palestinian problem has to be resolved by both Arabs and Jews. You are also right about what was yesterday and what is today but just as the Arabs are guilty for not having fixed the problem all these years, the Israelis are also guilty for the land grabs that have not stopped and are still continuing today. The biggest losers are the Palestinians.

Don't you mean present occupation and oppression? Denying other human beings the right to human rights never leads to peace. The oppressor never knows inner peace.

No question on how Arabs treated the Palestinians and it's still like that today. If you go back to 1920 or 1921, Feisal made a deal with Weizmann in total disregard of the Palestinians living there, to give all of Palestine and a chunk of Jordan to the Zionists in exchange for their help but the deal fell through when the British did not allow a greater Syrian kingdom. Both men did not have any respect or consideration for the Palestinians. It's still like that today as we saw with the peace treaties signed with Egypt and Jordan that left the Palestinians at the mercy of Israel and in the Gaza war with the Egyptians keeping them penned in during the turkey shoot. You're wrong in saying they didn't exist before 1960 to justify your having forced them off the land. This bending of the truth has been told so many times, it has become part of your narrative. Palestinians are a great people and deserve better treatment from Jews and Arabs alike.

"BTW to ease your confusion the west bank was not palestine either it was trans Jordan." It certainly was not! Transjordan's western boundary was the Jordan, that's how the Brits drew it and there's ample, undisputed maps to evidence it. The West Bank WAS and is Palestine - or at least what was left of Mandate Palestine after a) The Jordanians got their state to the east b) The Israelis got their state to the west I fail to understand why so many are determined to erroneously claim that Palestinians didn't and don't live in Palestine and have done so for several thousand years. The obvious answer is that it somewhat wrecks the nationalist narrative that Judea and Shomron are Jewish ancestral land - and can therefore be seized without remorse. Nice try but no go.

"in your narrative we are colonisers .we believe we have returned to our ancient jewish heritage." What YOUR narrative avoids is that "your heritage" did not lay waste for centuries just to be picked up again, but beame home to other people, whose heritage you consistently choose to ignore.

isting the reasons for the Arab failure in 1948, Khaled al-Azm (Syrian Prime Minister) notes that "the fifth factor was the call by the Arab governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave for the bordering Arab countries. Since 1948, it is we who have demanded the return of the refugees, while it is we who made them leave. We brought disaster upon a million Arab refugees by inviting them and bringing pressure on them to leave.-Khaled el-Azm, after the 1948 War in his 1972 memoirs. "We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down." - Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in "Sir An-Nakbah" by Nimr el-Hawari, Nazareth, 1952"The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the UN and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders do not give a damn whether Arab refugees live or die", -- Ralph Galloway, former head of UNWRA, 195

"You need not dig for Arab artefacts. You see them in broad daylight on the temple mount." On top of Jewish artifacts. Appreciate you proving my point.

Michael allow me to use your words when they say give back tp the palis East Jerusalen... "Don`t abuse the past in pursuing today`s conflicts. It`s complicated enough already!" Yes, It is inour prayers on Yomtov we do not say next year east or west Jerusalem we say next year Jerusalem and have said it for 3000 years. BTW to ease your confusion the west bank was not palestine either it was trans Jordan.

Ramzi, The Pal majority has no intention of living in real peace next to Israel. And as you say, the Pals are waiting it out (even "100 years") until Israel will someday be vulnerable, and then you'll strike. Thank you for making my point for me.

you are being assailed by a poster with multiple personalities yirmiyahu, also recently ombudsman, #2#21#22 are his and dozens more # If your views upset him he will post 7 or 8 posts depending on how upset. They will each be very short posts. He feels you will be more impressed with lots of teeny posts rather than he collect his thoughts into one post. If you respond he will likely target you under more names. He has used about 100 pseudonyms since he first emeged as Zadok the Priest some years ago. Best ignore him. Good luck.

Yaron raises the issue of whether Hamas is involved in the peace settlement or not. If Fatah and Hamas reconcile their differences, agree on power sharing and next year's election goes off OK, then I guess Israel has one peace partner. If these two can't reconcile their differences, Israel still has one peace partner, in the shape of the PLO. If Hamas so wishes, it can be an isolated, impoverished little Islamic enclave for ever more. It would be better if they were engaged in the process, but only if they are prepared to accept a peaceful solution and recognize the state of Israel without further obfuscation. If not, their absence from the talks may enable swifter progress and agreement. Gaza hardly poses an existential threat to the region and can be left to reflect in the dust if needs be.

'You need not dig for Arab artefacts. You see them in broad daylight on the temple mount.' Yup built on top of Israeli artifacts. Stolen by a xenophobic colonial power.

having a view on the problem" indeed i do not.i say only that you concentrate on us to the exclusion of all else.i obviously do not argue against the right of free speech. i assume you are from the usa.in that case should you not be following the christian value of let him who is without sin etc.

you may well be right that we are to blame but time has moved on.you in lebanon have had no mercy on the palestinians to the extent you do not allow them to take normal jobs in the country.if we have sinned it was in the past.you sin daily. essentially we have to deal with the situation as it is today.there is no going back.that should be clear enough.

1 jordan attacked in 1967 us and paid a price.when jordan went to war it gambled it would win real estate.the gamble did not succeed.it lost land instead. 2 in your narrative we are colonisers .we believe we have returned to our ancient jewish heritage.the birthplace of the jewish people.names like bethel have deep meaning for us. 3 i still do not follow your comparison to the italian dictator but that is best left to you. 4 finally the important idea to understand is that we have never been the ones who wanted a fight.we have always reacted to the other sides threats and violence.we will continue to react and never fight unless threatened.

In this conflict the UN, Geneva Conventions and all other international laws are irrelivent the only thing that does matter is the reality on the ground and that is: 1) No refugee return not now or ever 2) Israel will not give up all the territory it liberated in 1967 it may give the arabs something but it won't give it all. 3) At least some of the settlements will stay. THATS THE REALITY

The UN made it possible that Israel was legaly founded. As a member, Israel followed just on rare occasions the rules of the game. Please leave the United Nations, The Red Cross etc. Israel is in a better position to stand alone. What did you ,to make the world a little bit better. And your history knowledgs is a joke.

For the sake of historic accuracy..before the 1960's the Arabs didn't speak about Palestinians, as a matter of facts a lot of Arabs rejected then, themselves that fabricated fake identity. Arab anti-Jewish policies, discrimination, confication of property,harassments, pogroms, arrests, hangings etc..made the Jews leave the Arab countries. The Arab refugee problem (and indeed the Jewish one from Arab countries)was created by the Arabs and further artificially perpetuated and exploited to justify their never ending aggressions against Israel. Plenty quotes, declarations etc.. from Arabs can testify to prove it.

"Have you contacted any about their willingness to cooperate with Israel in the expulsion of Palestinians?" Perhaps axel you might have asked the same question of the Jews who were ethnically cleansed from their homes in Gaza to begin to make way for peace with the Arabs?

Ivo-we want nothing more than full peace with Israel and good relations between Israel and the newly formed state of Palestine... There is no "dark picture" of Israel set in stone...the "picture" is purely determined by the situation on the ground. I am happy you enjoyed your time in Biet Lehem. Did you travel there via Ramallah? Try that sometime...and pretend you have a Palestinian ID, no access to Jerusalem...Trust me, it is quite a car ride....and you can bet that this commute makes commerce between Ramallah and Biet Lehem untenable at best.

"you go on to say the "world will not put up with it". just how many divisions can you muster to back up all your talk? says Eliyahu. My theses was that the world community is rather tired of Israel and its stories, actions, broken promises and downright lies and we accordingly move towards the denouement. Eliyahu asks how many (army) divisions can be mustered to enforce the result. First things first. First I guess will come the UN decision that the Green Line is henceforth THE definitive boundary, though both parties may agree to swap land or make other concessions. Then comes the UN recognition of Palestine as an independent, sovereign state with full powers. At that point, Israel will be expected to vacate its military and civil administration from the WB. Failure to do so will provoke further UN action. In the first instance, it will be diplomatic. If this fails, then economic and financial. The divisions won't be needed, honest. Though the 5 powers have a few to spare.

Yes, Jews also have a Nakba. Their Nakba is the outcome of the Palestinian Nakba: no peace, no normalization, sending their children to dubious wars (forever?) and spending all national income on the army and on settlements. How can an intelligent Israeli professor not understand that peace means compromises? You can't have everything you want, and it needs to be a win/win situation. In his whining about the outcome of Oslo, the professor msses the point. Although imperfect, Oslo was the first real effort at reconcilliation. It does not come without a price. Militant and extremist groups on both side will not miss an attempt to block any movement toward peace. Where do you stand, professor? What peace do you seek? How do you plan to achieve it without a Palestinian state?

Cyprus is something you cannot compare with IL/Pal conflict. No Greek Cypriot will deny the fact that the turks have a right to live on the island (what some racists and extremists are doing on the other side) The cantonal principle like Switzerland is accepted and there will be in short term a solution. Two people have to share one island !! Why the world community is reacting moderate (and not like with Israel) everybody knows - there are young people and it will be a solution. Not in Israel.

"Walk through the old city and dig down a few feet you do not come up with Palistinian artifacts , nor arab artifactws but Jewish artifacts." You need not dig for Arab artefacts. You see them in broad daylight on the temple mount.

The Palestinian didn't decide yet if they want one state,or two Palestinian states. No one seem to care,but it is hard to reach an agreement between three sides,when we only act as it is only two sides.No one care about Hamas? No one even mention them,pressure them,talke to them,anything?.What about the"peace proces" of the Palestinian.If they cannot even settle their problems,how can one believe that they can do it with the"enemy".How can one have a road map,with all the road side bombs.

As you have kindly posted 4 replies so far to mine, let me try to do them justice. I know the background and course of the 1967 war. The net result, Israel holding the West Bank temporarily under belligerent occupation, is not illegal (though temporary seems to have become rather too permanent in Israeli minds). However, Government-sponsored settlement, unequal treatment of the Palestine inhabitants and desires to ethnically cleanse them ARE illegal. The parallels between Mussolini and Israel seem obvious. Both flaunted the world organization of the day in pursuit of colonization, free land and a warped ideology. Israel is no better or worse than Il Duce. I perhaps shouldn?t have wryly said ?noisy supporters from NY?, (though there seem rather a lot of them) but the question was: are you objecting to ALL outsiders having a view, or just to the critical ones who don?t share YOUR view? Democratic rights, free speech and all that.

It's true. Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AenISgolLe0

Of course this statement is the complete opposite of international law. The allies did not take over Japan and Germany and Italy after WWII. Those appear to be thriving, independent democracies well known for their respect for human rights. The same obviously can't be said about Israel's administration of the W. Bank and Gaza,

I'm very far from denying the Jewish tragedies. The threats by the Arab states had come before the actual partition and had been made to prevent it from happening. After the partition was announced, some Arab states got nasty with the Jews but not all of them. In fact, after the 49 war, the Jewish population of Lebanon increased. As to the collusion, this was between the Jewish enterprise and the Arab states like Jordan about the taking over of the WB without Jewish resistance and with Iraqi corrupt leaders that helped the Zionists empty the country of its Jews. What really happened has been blurred by both Arabs and Jews. Look up Yehouda Shenhav on the net when you have a free moment; he wrote about the Iraqi Jews a few months back in Haaretz. Read the following about hitching a ride on the magic carpet: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=329736

The Borders of 1967 with minor modification. Demilitarized Palestinian state.Non aggression pact from Israel.Refugees return to the new state.Compensation for refugees.The Palestinian state get control of the holy places for Islam in Jerusalem.Is it so bad?why not?.

- clause! jens, don't make a complete fool of yourself. you bet ANYONE in israel, given past experience, would trust the "massive international force" to come & take care of business, keeping everybody secure in israel/palestine. whom do you have in mind, btw? NATO? it's overstretched already & would at any rate not rush to sign up for that job. however bad the occupation, the IDF is the only glue holding that piece of ME territory from falling apart & becoming one explosive fray that would devour everbody in & around it. it's NOT the right order to pull out first & then hope negotiations will work it out. that would be the most risky & foolhardy of all scenarios, just like the US couldn't just pull out of iraq (however stupid /evil the invasion) in 2004-6 & leave that place to go to permanent hell. it's also not what the UNSCR 242 calls for. the sides are supposed to settle their accounts & agree to borders. 1st you make it credible that there may be peace, then you leave.

What happens when a fly falls into a coffee cup? The Italian throws the cup and walks away in a fit of rage. The Frenchman takes out the fly, and drinks the coffee. The Chinese eats the fly and throws away the coffee. The Russian drinks the coffee with the fly, since it was extra with no charge. The Israeli sells the coffee to the Frenchman, the fly to the Chinese, buys himself a new cup of coffee and uses the extra money to invent a device that prevents flies from falling into coffee. The Palestinian blames the Israeli for the fly falling in his coffee, protests the act of aggression to the UN, takes a loan from the European Union to buy a new cup of coffee, uses the money to purchase explosives and then blows up the coffee house where the Italian, the Frenchman, the Chinese, and the Russian are all trying to explain to the Israeli that he should give away his cup of coffee to the poor Palestinian.

"move the arabs to arab lands" By all reasonable accounts, the WB is Palestinian land. The only ones denying this are those who irrationally feel that it is obvious that those that held land 2,000 years ago have the right to steal it from more recent occupants. Nowhere else in the world would anybody even think of making such a ludicrous argument. The romans have a better claim on all of Europe than the Jews have on the WB. Moreover, in 1948, Israel conquered lands consistent with the then previling customs of war, except for denying refugee return. But, in 1967, the UN and Geneva Convention had changed the rules and further land grabs by Israel cannot be reconciled with International law. Israel has no right whatsoever to any land taken in 1967! Israel's intransigence is mystifying because it signed onto the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter. Apparently, some feel that the laws simply dont apply to Jews or protect Palestinians. They're wrong.

It is a mistake to expect peace before withdrawal,but the withdrawal must be done only for peace and not for negotiations.International force have no credibility,on either side. Even if they are not biased(and they are),they have no power in the ME.Remember Naser and the UN force.Withdrawal for peace,nothing else will work.

he obviously a likudnic which is fine. however as a professor he should be able to think things through rather than try to be a clever spin doctor. he taking the stance of the extreme left that want one state, a secular state with rights for all citizens(current residents of the land)and hopefully a true democracy. if this is not what he has in mind please could explain what will happen to the current 3.5 million people in the greater israel that are not jews?

You ask why we on the human rights side are so interested in Israel. The first answer is that we are interested in all human rights issues. Israel-Palestinian issues are by no means all that I care about or address. However, the crimes of Israel are far closer to me than those of, eg, Sudan because my country enabled the State of Israel to become the hateful, greedy, vicious occupier that it is. But for US protection in the UN, Israel would have had to compromise a long time ago. I am thus an accomplice to the crimes of the IDF and demand redress as such. Instead of advancing human rights, my country has long supported the indefensible positions of Israel. This was due in large part to Holocaust guilt, but that is a generational thing that is dissipating. Most Americans today realize Pals should not suffer for the Holocaust. We will no longer ignore the equal humanity of the Palestinians. So we feel especially obligated to force change in Israel.

I'm not into the brotherhood thing and I accept that Lebanon erred in having kept the Palestinians in the camps all these years but you keep forgetting that the party guilty of having caused the Palestinians to be in those camps are the Israelis. It's odd how Jews want the Arab countries to take in the Palestinians that they evicted in 49 and 67 to make room for other Jews. Have you no shame holding the Lebanese accountable for not having naturalized the Palestinians to sweep under the carpet what Israel did?

To All who see it fit to perpetuate a MYTH about a people and land that has no history of exsistence pals or whatever you delusional ANTI-SEMITES choose to call them. First of all Canaan was CONQURED by Israelites for Israelites and bedouins were let to live in peace then europe and briton stuck their nose were it didnt belong and low and behold there were a land called palastine even with palestian people poof there they are and they to shall be given land, given land, given land. Nobody gets anything unless they earn it or CONQURE it, but wait we the nation of ISRAEL cant protect what we CONQURED because we OFFEND some cult follower and their makebelieve profit, its plain to see how the VAIL over your eyes not only clouds your vision but also your thought process. ISRAEL should build whereever they want, name streets in hebrew whenever and whereever they want. Nakba for jews is the blue dome in OUR capital JERUSALEM.

You didn't do your home work.There is no war between the state of Afghanistan and the US.They are there for support of the Afghan government.My point was,that even if there is no war between countries,that is no guarntee for peace.

yes axel i know what they stand for both literally and for their stand on israel. the united nations is an anti israel organisation.israel would have been condemned more often and more to your liking were it not for the united states. axel i am also well aware of the history of all the countries in europe from the franco prussian war up the wretched war of 1939-45.

Thats quite wrong Walid. Recently, documents have been revealed demonstrating that the various nations of the Arab League colluded in their expulsion of their Jewish citizens. In essence, when the Arab side rejected the 1947 Partition Plan, and in fact, any political rights for Jews, Israel stated its intent to declare its independence. The Arab States, in response, issued thinly veiled threats against their Jewish citizens. When Israel declared its independence, later recognized by the UN, the nationalization of property and the expulsions began. Jews were dispossed of real estate totaling roughly five times the size of the state of Israel. So Walid, don't whine about "Nakba Denial" if you chose to deny the tragedies of others.

"However Jerusalem is now back to being all under Israeli sovereignty, as it once was. Walk through the old city and dig down a few feet you do not come up with Palistinian artifacts , nor arab artifactws but Jewish artifacts." Not you too! What is it about Israel and archaeology? I got this too on the stories about a Bar Kochba hoard and a 1st century synagogue. Lots of chest beating and shouting of Jewish, Jewish, since time immemorial! Come on Big Sur, you're too intelligent for this rubbish. Sure there are Jewish antiquities buried in Jerusalem, but they've mostly got hundreds of year old Muslim and Christian buildings on top of them. We've got Roman ruins under London, but I don't see Berlusconi shouting London's Italian! Don't abuse the past in pursuing today's conflicts. It's complicated enough already!

... and Israel is still paying for it !

but that's like saying the Native American Indians should rule the USA, or that the Maoris should rule New Zealand, or the Aborigines should rule Australia, or.........

- of israel you guys can't help but prefer. actually both sides respectively are stricken w/this kind of preference, is what i think. israel isn't one monolithic bloc /entity that harbours intentions & makes decisions. in order to put an end to settlement building any israeli leader would need to act w/total determination, in a bulldozer-like fashion like sharon, w/support from colleagues & challenging a lot of people, incl. in the inert isr. bureaucracy. there were no clear ideas about the final picture in the mid -90s. the building went on because some wanted it so & no isr. leader was courageous enough to oppose it. it's still so & is gettting only harder. you asked about -93. peace w/jordan was not yet made. but even post -95 some sort of jordanian option could still be envisioned, no? one more comment: i was in betlehem during the fatah convention. it looked as if you pals had control of considerably more than schools & garbage. actually it was quite impressive.

No, I did not forget the Arab Jews but I don't consider it as part of the refugee equation that Israel desperately attempts to create because some were surely evicted but in most part, they were lured to Israel by the Zionist enterprise and chief among them were the Iraqi Jews. Part of the enterprise's mission was the rush to bring them to Israel to fill the void created by the Palestinians that had been evicted. Some of those evicted by the Arabs wanted to file claims against the Arab states, and they should have, but Israel prevented them from doing so for obvious reasons. This is not a subject that can be discussed here in this little dialogue box. I suggest you put aside the narrative you were taught about Arab Jews and do your own research on the subject and you will be astonished with the truth that you will discover.

"it aint going to happen" says cummings. your post cummings is if i may say so a trifle arrogant.you go on to say the "world will not put up with it". r cummings just how many divisions can you muster to back up all youtr talk?

"there is an automatic majority of anti israel nations so you will forgive us for not taking the un too seriousl." Ever heard of the difference between GA resolutions and UNSC resolutions (boldly assuming that you know what GA and UNSC means)?

the palestinians is quite wrong.you have kept them in camps for over sixty years and do not allow them to seek employment.what sort of arab brotherhood is that. yet the europeans give out citizenships to arabs and do not advertise their brotherhood.

"The answer is simple - the Israelis expected that the Arab world would accept the Jewish State...." And in return for this acceptance, the jewish State would allow the Palestinians to live in peace in their isolated ghettos while Israel moved more and more Russian and American Jews into the ever expanding colonies... What a great deal.

ramzi, - i sincerely appreciate your attitude, ie in willingness to agree to a peace fair to both sides (according to your posts recently). jason may not have used the best words in the world. but please understand, even if the deal at camp david wasn't optimal for the pals, the israelis were shocked & horrified by what followed in the wake of that failed deal. leaving aside who exactly was to blame (yes, israel went on building in the WB provocatively during oslo, which in fact failed to include the settlements issue), you people went straight from peace process to open terror (whatever you call it). sharon visited the mount long before taba. at the time of taba the events had already overrun all the politicians. even if their positions were close the two sides were already busy fighting each other. above all. let's avoid being confrontational. btw, i visited betlehem a few weeks ago, while fatah still had their convention, & it was nice. the atmosphere was friendly. rgs

Read some of the Jihadist Imams and what they have to sayabout christians and Jews, They believe the old retoric destroy everything not Islamic.

of course the un cummings.there is a serious problem with the organisation.there is an automatic majority of anti israel nations so you will forgive us for not taking the un too seriousl. you may recall that libya which blew up two civilian planes killing a total of almost 400 innocents was the head of the security council for a not insubstantial period.( the pan am flight and a french civilian plane) we do not think too much of the un.

Let's Change this for Lahbras who sites Afrikanner retoric "Israel is going to do what`s good for Israel and Israel`s national interests, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks or wants.Jennifer"Ireland is going to do what`s good for Ireland and Ireland`s national interests, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks or wants.Right Lahbras

The Mormons are a religious community, who were very successful and hated by their neighbors, forced to move their religious community to the desert in America; they were racist, isolated, sometimes unlawful practices (i.e. bigamy), successful, friendly to the American Indians (a rarity among Americans). I just came back from California, seeing a beautiful Mormon Temple in LaJolla, I could not reflect on how similar the Israelis and Mormons are.

"Victims of peace" they cynically called them!I always failed to understand why it was considered acceptable that peace needed to have its victims too. I always knew war generated victims..but peace..that was new to me! Another perversion was that a process which brought an unprecedented wave of terrorism, killing scores of our civilians could still be called a "peace process"...and considered by the left a reasonable price to pay for that (illegal)Oslo-peace-gamble.

Sure since we started in 1948 (not) as soon as we won our independence your arab Buddies, got Jeaqlous. They fought us saying no Israel let it be brushed to the mediterranean. However Jerusalem is now back to being all under Israeli sovereignty, as it once was. Walk through the old city and dig down a few feet you do not come up with Palistinian artifacts , nor arab artifactws but Jewish artifacts.

Israel naturalized several millions of Jewish refugees driven out from Arab countries. I guess you don't consider ethnic cleansing millions of innocent people for thier religion to be a crime?

that sort of discourse is not strange to us and you may indulge yourself to your hearts content.but that is most certainly not debate whatever else it may be.

not exactly sure how you managed to bring the italian dictator into this debate.the man went to africa and attacked an innocent country.we defended israel on our borders after we were attacked in 1967.

You ask, what did the Israelis expect from Oslo? The fact that you don't know the simple answer, speaks volumes of Arab mentality and delusions. The answer is simple - the Israelis expected that the Arab world would accept the Jewish State. There was no such acceptance, just the opposite, rockets, bombs, and celebrations at the murder of Jewish women and children, cruel abuse of Jewish prisoners and bodies by Hamas, Hezbollah, threats from Iran, constant attacks in UN to undermind Israels legitimacy. No surprise the Israelis dealt with Hamas in Gaza very harshly, and have turned to nationalist leaders.

that is your view on the matter but certainly not ours.we were attacked by jordan in 1967. we went up thge judean hills and took back the ancient jewish homeland.that is what in fact happened.you are free to disagree with us but there is not much else you can do about it.

Will it even be possible to call a palestinian state a state. A military, the greatest symbols of independence but they will be forbidden to have whilst all their naighbors are all armed to the teeth. Certainly for a number of years Israel will insist on controlling their airspace to avoid another 9/11 Any bridges or tunnels connecting the palestinian state between Judea & Samaria and Gaza will be controlled by Israel. For many years to come palestinians will still rely on Israel for alot of services. This state will be have very little its capable of exporting. As it doesn't have a military there will be no arms industry or products that are spin offs from it. Agricultural land is very limited so its unlikely that they will be making any fortunes in agriculture. They have no natural recources only around $4 billion in natural gas off the Gaza & Israel wants a cut if that. Other than tourism they won't have much it will be a unique entity never a true state.

Israel signed a peace deal with Jordan in 1995...so the Jordan option was taken off the table. Israel accellerated settlement expansion to unprecedented levels during the early years of Oslo....so clearly, they were not interested in a "two state" solution. Israel made up its mind: The Palestinians live in isolated enclaves, in control their schools and garbage collection, but nothing else. And then...oddly, people like the author of this article, extrapolate the demise of Oslo to being one of Arab rejection of Israel...

some of you do and that is no shame. others however are given to planting bombs and killing civilains by the thousand. funny alex that you should dwell on the harmless that is riding camels while leaving out the monstrous the mass killings of the innocents.

Oslo was a great dream. Arafat failed the people. He chose the Tehran alliance's advice. War! The advice to the Palestinian people, to nurture a leadership that unites the people, and organizes the affair in terrorfree non-violent manners. Like a Ferenc Deak. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferenc_De%C3%A1k

Even if no-one is listening, it's still a good article.

you may have noted that we are rather polite and courteous to each other.we cannot debate otherwise.we in israel are very happy for you to have your say but we are startled at your egregious discourtesy to sean who did not in fact address you.

A single bi-national state. You choose!

The Jews born in Algeria before 1962 had to go to France after the algerian war, lost by France. They are today french sephardi Jews. They had been living in Ottoman Empire for tens of centuries... They were moved from their homeland as a result of a war. Even if the french Jews are in a difficult position at the moment because of antisemitism from the arab immigrants (who are now french), they have had a good life in France. Some of them have gone to Israel, and the others will go one day or die (antisemitism or assimilation) The Arabs who call themselves Palestinians should make their "Alya", and go and live to a real arab rich country like Saudi Arabia (their holy land): they will have a better life, according to the Charia. There is no need for a new arab state (they are already 21). And there is only 1 jewish state. The money which is given to the Palestinians can be used to move them to their holy land, Saudi Arabia. The Jews from Algeria had no help to go to France.

what is the difference between israel and serbia michael think deeply and clearly ! serbia did not have the power to send the world up in smoke !

What alternate universe does Mr. Breiman live in? Why is it we do not want peace? The world is against us, except the US who is gradually becoming even-handed, and rightly so if we want to ever achieve peace. We must push for peace because we need it more than the Palestinians, the Arabs, or the Moslems. For us, peace is a must not a luxury. The numbers are against us. Peace NOW!!

"... Jewish arms were open, an incredibly generous deal ..." ... while at the same time continuing to kill Palestinians and steal their land. The world finally sees your duplicity. No place to hide no more. "... quickly and easily rejected by the Arab world..." ... history has proven this to be totally FALSE. It was Israel who got cold feet after Taba and Sharon manufactured a diversion by visiting the temple mount, triggering the second intifada. "... war with the Arabs would be permanent (jihad ad nauseum). And genocidal attacks (suicide bombers targeting civilians)..." ... Palestinians are focused on liberating their country from occupation, not some jihad. We are not Al-Qaeda or Iran or Taliban. "... Pal Arabs are lucky to have that..." ... It is Israel that will be lucky if it ever celebrates its 100th anniversary. Time is on our side.

"... Jewish arms were open, an incredibly generous deal ..." ... while at the same time continuing to kill Palestinians and steal their land. The world finally sees your duplicity. No place to hide no more. "... quickly and easily rejected by the Arab world..." ... history has proven this to be totally FALSE. It was Israel who got cold feet after Taba and Sharon manufactured a diversion by visiting the temple mount, triggering the second intifada. "... war with the Arabs would be permanent (jihad ad nauseum). And genocidal attacks (suicide bombers targeting civilians)..." ... Palestinians are focused on liberating their country from occupation, not some jihad. We are not Al-Qaeda or Iran or Taliban. "... Pal Arabs are lucky to have that..." ... It is Israel that will be lucky if it ever celebrates its 100th anniversary. Time is on our side.

Since before the creation of Israel, Christians and others have supported Isreal because of biblical beliefs in the eventual nuclear wars there (and not here in Europle) that hasten the end, and the return of Jesus Christ!

Take heart, Harzion, Lebanon has already naturalized around 100,000 Palestinians but regrettably for the wrong reasons. All the current brouhaha about Lebanon being unable to form an acceptable government is caused in good part by one group that has the naturalization of the 400,000 Palestinians and the comfort of Israel on its agenda and the opposing group that refuses to have anything to do with naturalization and that don't give a hoot about Israel's comfort. I'm for the naturalization because I know very well that the refugees aren't going anywhere so Lebanon should make the best of a situation that it cannot control. I have to admit that Israel got away with it one more time and Jews that evicted the Palestinians a mere 10 years after it had happened to them in Europe have nothing to be proud of.

The posters who use this "code word" Lefty/PAL agit-prop term FORGET that the "Zionist Enterprise" was interupted by the JEWISH "NAKBA", by ROME stealing the land and decoimating the Jewish popoulation in its homeland and forcing into diaspora tose remainder who were not killed or enslaved (except for small remnant pocketswho got to sty in the land) IN THE aftermath of the 2 Roman -Jewish wars of the 1st and 2nd centuries C.E. THAT NAKBA was crucial to history as the ARABS never would have been able to take any of this land as Islam expanded into the power void as Byzantium withdrew due to costs in the 7th century C.E. IF ZION was there as its rightfulkjewish state-either the Islamistys would have Killed all the Jews then,OR Islam would have been stopped by the Jews ...The Arabs/Pals whatever owe their squatter good luck to Rome then to Byzantium going broke--The Jews getting F**Ked by thos Euros was a real NAKBA that the Pals situation pales by comparison...

"Israel is going to do what`s good for Israel and Israel`s national interests, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks or wants.Jennifer same bravado, same twaddle, same self delusionary clap trap. The palestinians will not be on their own. That is the part you dont get. That is the part the Apartheid regime in South Africa could not get--until it was too late. Keep the dream alive Jennifer---before it dies-- and it will.

hello ibrahim, - i thought you were among the informed ones & that you knew. it's not a secret. the israelis, incl. rabin, weren't at all sure where things were going /should be going at the time. several options were discussed, incl. the jordanian one. rabin himself, as late as may -95 (i have a TIME interview to that effect, explicitely speaking), possibly till the end, "was opposing the idea of a palestinian state". the idea of ceding east-jerusalem was pretty much unheard-of, ie anathema. the israeli leaders wanted to see how things developed in the limited areas they ceded to the pals first. a few maybe foresaw that an independent pal. state was inevitable. so things were fluid. unlike today, when the idea of a pal. state is rather obvious & the question is who is for & who's against.

"We have proven our desire for peace many time over" Gee Would building illegal settlements for the last 40 years be an example. Or did you have in mind dropping white Phospherous on Children or dropping 2000 lb bombs on heavily populated apartment buildings. Or how about bulldozing Palestinians homes and dumping the inhabitants on the street. Maybe I missed a few --and you can fill it the blanks. Try not to include giving back land that is not yours to give in the first place.In other words stick to facts.

NOthing will bring peace in the middle east or sense to the Israeli people except severe sanctions, not on Iran, but on Israel. Wake up Israel: the world has had enough of lies, obfuscations, cleansing, occupation, and your thinking that God or whomever has "given" you the land for an exclusive "Jewish" state.

A misspelling "A Palestinian side alongside Israel at the outset, but on its ruins in the future, is the diametric opposite of peace." should be "A Palestinian STATE alongside Israel at the outset, but on its ruins in the future, is the diametric opposite of peace."

We shouldn't interfere! "At ease gentlemen and let the peoples of the middle east solve their own problems", says Eliyahu. Trouble is, we've seen how Israel goes about 'solving the problems' Eliyahu. In 40 years, they've occupied an independent territory, settled half a million citizens there illegally, seized most of the water and put in place what looks awfully like a semi-apartheid state. In the 19th Century, people might have looked the other way. In the 21st C, we have rules of international law and the world does not take too kindly to invasion, occupation, bullying and racism. Of course it would be convenient if the world just looked the other way, so the Eretz Israel brigade can go on with their land seizures and messianic quest for religious domination. It ain't going to happen though, Israel's actions cause too many problems for everyone else. Enjoy the spotlight before the inevitable sanctions..

...even Bush junior took notice of the Arab Peace Initiative, funny how you folks always miss the obvious... Anyway, let's assume that it's all true and the Arabs really only want to destroy Israel and make the whole place one big Palestinian state. If you had all the power, and you could solve the whole thing yourself, let's hear your plan. You people really should put your cards on the table.

"No Islamic government permits talkback to their controlled press."sean. Sean---for your further edification---Google "Al Jazeera--English" and post all the anti Islamist on the soft underbelly of the Islamic controlled press that you desire. Dont have the guts to try---do you sean. You might have to erase another line item from your Hasbara list of anti arab vitriol and watch another one of your myths fly out the window.

The big mistake is to think that peace have to be made before a withdrawal from the occupied territory. But the right order is pull out, then have peace negotiations, while a massive international force keeps the palestinians and israelis on their own side of the 1967 borders.

aren't so hard to understand. (I assume you're talking about the critical ones, rather than the noisy supporters from New York). There once was a guy called Mussolini who broke the League of Nations by invading Abyssinia. Once the horrors of WW2 were over and M had swung from a rope, the world decided: never again, no more isolationism, the new UN world order is going to take a proactive role in preventing rogues nations and actions. They invaded Iraq because it seized Kuwait, entered Serbia to halt ethnic cleansing,, restored order in Sierra Leone, etc, etc. In Israel, we have a nation that is illegally occupying its neighbor and settling their land, taking their water and flaunting UN resolutions, Mussolini-style. So of course the rest of the world has a heightened interest in Israel and the strange polemical justifications its government and talk-backers come up with. Inconvenient to be in the spotlight I know, but Israel placed itself there squarely.

Oslo was a watershed moment in that it showed that Jewish arms were open, an incredibly generous deal for the Pal Arabs was on the table (certainly better than any deal ever offered to Jews), and pledges had been made by both leaders. And it was quickly and easily rejected by the Arab world. And yes this was a Nakba for Israel. To realize that no exchange of real peace was possible. That war with the Arabs would be permanent (jihad ad nauseum). And genocidal attacks (suicide bombers targeting civilians) was the Arab opening gambit. I don't know what Pal quasi-state will eventuate, but it must be demilitarized and behind a wall. The Pal Arabs are lucky to have that.

As Ron and many of the talkbackers here show, Israel is teetering on the top of a slippery slope marked Serbia. What happens on this slope is that you wallow in your own self-righteous ethnic victimhood, while ignoring your own victims, and you gradually grow further and further apart from the international community while your victims grow closer to them. It's a slope that leads to international pressure, sanctions and some even nastier destinations. Israel should be very careful before tobogganing down it, as so many people seem now to want it to do.

With this thinking, then you choose war. Palestinians are here to stay. We want our freedom. If you do not choose peace based on a 2-state solution, then we will be happy with a 1-state solution as long as we are FULL citizens with FULL rights. You're better off to adopt the 2-state solution. You choose war or the 1-state solution at your peril... just think demographics. Time is on our side.

The author rightly establishes the Arab side's expectation of Olso was simple: The end result was a soveriegn Palestinian State...fine... But, he forgets to state the Israeli expectation...was it to withdraw from the West Bank and make peace with the newly formed Palestinian State? I presume not....so then, I ask again: What was the Israeli assumptions regarding the end game of the Oslo peace process?

"We have proven our desire for peace many time over" Sure, like the time you invaded Egypt with the aid of the UK and France and the times you invaded Lebanon and the times you answered fireworks from Gaza with massacres by artillery and F-16's and the time you blew up the PLO hq in Tunisia and the time you destroyed a civil nuclear reactor in Iraq and the times you set up Hamas to oppose the old PLO and the times you armed and directed Fatah against Hamas in Gaza. Peace oozes out of every pore!

I believe that Menachem Begin had the Canada|Quebec relationship in mind as the blueprint for autonomy for the Pals. Jordan is Palestine is an absolute truth.There already is a Palestinian state.Pals are not stateless.With a few non retractable constitutional absolutes [Israel is and will always remain'Jewish'; anti Israel[terror\treason] citizens will be jailed or deported] a 'One State Solution' could work.The Torah does not exclude non'Jews' from Israel.Any non idol worshipping loyal non Jew I believe is even welcome in Israel.Treasonous Jews should be jailed. Terrorist or treasonous non Jews should be jailed and\or deported to their homeland.If Pal;deported to Jordan\Palestine.I believe that many Pals if treated equally\properly would become great Israeli citizens.That is what happened in Canada\Quebec and both sides have benefitted and flourished.It can happen in Israel.I believe that Begin intended to try that route for PEACE.He certainly would never had done Oslo with Arafat.

Without a single move on the part of the Arabs that they have any wish besides genocide. Now is the time for them to show that they have a desire. Bet that won't ever happen.

sean, do you actually read Arab news papers? Inventing such things only lead to the wildly distorted view every one has of Arabs. Do we, by any chance, only live in tents and ride camels to work too?

the mid east is not your concern. rightwing nut jobs from San Diego should concentrate on Obama's birthplace and building the anti Mexican wall. Is aipac funding your posts?

"move the arabs to arab lands" No need to move them. They already on Arab Land... their own Arab Land. All Israel needs to do is get the hell out of there and leave them in peace.

we do not like to discussed and delved into and plucked and prodded.discussion is free as it should be and yet we feel fairly uncomfortable when the world makes us its business.to the exclusion of all else.you may be aware there are more urgent cases for internationalists to feed off. a few hundred kilometres to our east lies the unhappy state of iraq where well over one thousand civilians are butchered each month. surely you would not be surprised if we naively think you would possibly turn your attention elsewhere for a minute or two.

Israel is going to do what's good for Israel and Israel's national interests, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks or wants. If the rest of the world wants a Pal state so badly, then let them take in the Pals and give them some of their land as a state. It's easy to try to get others to do what goes against their national interests but much harder to take action yourself. I predict the status quo will continue until the world loses interest in this problem, or Israel finds a much needed alternative to oil energy, or whichever comes first. Time is definitely not on the arabs' side, though, for they can no more force Israel to become a binational state than they can force Israel to withdraw to 67 borders, which they've been trying unsuccessfully to do for over 40 years now.

as they aren't that good at fighting. Hard to win a State while hiding behind women and kids. it's not up to Israel to give them beans. And neither do any arab nations want them to have a state either or, they'd have one. Maybe they should have named themselves Canaanites? or Philistines? But, what's in a name? In the "pals case, they used a made up word from Rome who fell, and the pals never did stand up. Two failed people because they aren't chosen for greatness, just defeat.

there are wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan... Right? Been away? Asleep?

Yes Peace may be utopian...but it is a point that draws a vector which demands right action on our part. This means both caring about our well being and the well being of our neighbors. To think that only the "messianic vision" of the Redeeming Land of Israel demands our action mkaes it a False Messiah. Building bridges, mutual respect and honor with our neighbors, especially Palestinians is no less an imperative, human and jewish.

It is very easy to put people in groups, those who supported the Oslo peace process must definitely belong to the left and those who didn't to the right. I am not a leftist nor a supporter of the right but a liberal who finds it difficult to vote at elections, but the fact that the Oslo process didn't work is due to the Arabs not wanting it to work, but also due to the Israelis not wishing to give up the dream of a greater Israel. Although I see the Arab's refusal to recognize Israel from the beginning as well as refusing to split the country, Israel's actions particularly after the 6 day war have to bear responsibility for the present situation. We should never have encouraged the settlements but built a defencable border after we saw the Palestinians are not willing to sit down with us and talk peace. Development of the Negev should have been encouraged after that war instead of developping the towns and settlements we did. I don't think that makes me a lefty.

Gets it wrong when it comes to what Oslo was about in the eyes of the Arabs. Prof. Breiman writes that the Arabs wanted Oslo to end with a Pa,estinian state with Jerusalem as its capital. Nonsense! They've been offered that and then some over the course of this "process", only to refuse the offers and respond with more terror. What the Arabs wanted, what they've always wanted and what they still want today, is the destruction of Israel in its entirety and its replacement by a 'Palestinian' state. Sadly, even Israel's Right refuses to fully deal with this truism and its implications for a negotiated solution to Arab demands.

Stand with the basic International Laws. If aggressor nation loses, it forfeits land lost and pay retribution to the attacked. The political world never plays by established rules when it is to their disadvantage. Arabs lost by attacking Israel (many times) and did not pay retributions yet they were allowed to stay in the country so they could destroy it within. Civilizations always, always fall within.

fulfilling UN resolutions is perceived by the Arabs as a catastrophe, why should they be rewarded by the international community. Indeed, they should repudiated.

"but a persistent question still remains why are they so interested in us to the exclusion of all else." The interest is not as intense as it seems. Yes, there are a few hard core dogoodie leftists posting here. But most of the pro-pal posts are by professional islamist writers funded by petrodollars, and plying their trade on the soft underbelly of the western free press. No Islamic government permits talkback to their controlled press.

The article by Mr. Breiman is complete propoganda. To compare the Nakba of the Arabs to the preace proccess which resulted in hundreds of Israeli deaths yet thousands upon thousands of Palestinian casualties which, of course, is always unimportant. He also badly distorts the history of Oslo by making it sound like victory to the terrorists, while not mentioning the fact that more settlements were built during the Oslo period than any other period. In fact, they increased by over 100 percent. How could that possibly be a victory for "terrorists" if their goal was to establish a Palestinian state in the WB and Gaza? What evictions and freezes is he talking about? The evacuation/disengagement from Gaza? That only added more settlements to the WB, didn't it? It's total distortion and propoganda on his part.

because Islam is not the religion of peace, unless when perhaps all the world is Islam, and the Shiites and Sunnis somehow kiss and make up. It is there for the knowing in the Fatah Constitution and Hamas Charter. It is there in the methods of how Islam spread since invented, and the 1929 massacre of Hebron and all the bloodshed before and since. It is there in the withdrawal from Gaza. It is there in the sermons of hate. It is there in 9-11 and the bloody riots of Paris, London and Malmo. Where radical Islam meets enlightened objectivity, a constant low level war is the best that can be expected, interspaced with some hot flare-ups. It is the price of life, unfortunately. The rattling tin cup of Peace for Land is the music of fools.

Just imagine if Israel were Cyprus, and all the Jews were on one side of a Green Line, its capital was cordoned off and divided between the Jews and the . . . Let's say Israel was considered a good guy and very "European", and the other side was not so very. Add to that equation the proposal to allow include the "other side" of the Green Line in some political or economic arrangement according to a plebiscite where both sides would have to agree on it, as was done in Cyprus. On Cyprus, the Greeks said no, and Turks said yes. Did the world condemn the Greek Cypriots for refusing to join with the Turks? Would the world condemn the Jews on a similar plebescite? I wonder . . .

There is no war between the US and Afghanistan do they have peace? There is no war between the US and Iraq, do they have peace? There is no war between Iraq and Syria,Syria and Lebanon,Greece and Turkey,,,,,, do they have peace?.

or Samaria or Judea must, must be de-militarized. If the above does not amount to full sovereignty, the Arabs can only blame themselves for the situation that they brought upon themselves with their own hands and should cease blaming others. It is time for some Arab soul searching, introspection, self-criticism. Alternatively of course, as called for by UNSC Resolution 242, most of the West Bank should come under Jordanian rule and the Gaza Strip under Egyptian one. These and only these are the Arabs' choices.

Oslo was a failure,but one can always learn from the mistakes of the past.One doesn't give up,aspcially not on peace.Atleast now we know how not to do it.Maybe a Palestinian will not mean peace,but if they will still work for the destraction of Israel after getting their state,the democratic world would drop them, maybe not BBsn or Linthwait,and Durson,but the real world.There would be no more excuses for their terror. BTW,some posters strongly support the Israeli peace movement,and on the Palestinian side they support the extremests,why?can't find a Palestinian peace movement?start one!

yes axel just think of 1945 and the russian and sudeten germans all going home ! peace has now run for 64 years !!!!

Be careful what you wish for you might get it.

There is never a fullproof guarantee for peace, and maybe even a Palestinian state won't bring us the peace,but only maybe.On the other hand without a Palestinian state with security for both,i can guarantee you,there will be no peace for either.

Breiman is right on the shortcomings of the Oslo process that peple like him did everything thy could to disarray. However, that is not the important flaw of the article. A palestinian state is a danger to Israel, however, keeping the territories will lead to the end of the jewish state. The palestinians will not abandon their houses this time. Not a single person worldwide will approve for longer a continuous jewish buildup in the territories without giving civic political rights to all its inhabitants. If Breiman is ready to do that, then we might achieve an end of the conflict and probably peace. However, the odds for the existance of a jewish state will be null.

"He may not have a viable alternative but he has lived through what the intelligencia has chosen to ignore distort and deny." Pete, you and I disagree on a lot, but I know you're an intelligent rational advocate for Israel. You know that it's not good enough for this guy to say everything's wrong with the peace process, without at least attempting to provide something better. Nobody on anys side would say that the current peace process is perfect but it's better than delusion, despair, cynicism or worse.

You are wrong.Some Israelis don't want peace, and many Palestinians feels the same.That why there is still occupation, terror, Qassam, settlement,and incitment.Obama's peace?the only thing he wants is freez on settlement,it is a long way to peace from a sheer freez on building Hamas is the one that refuses peace,only Hudna remember?and they exist as an insular religious identity/ideology,what else would you call Gaza?.IT seem that it is you that support the return to the Dark Ages.

I must admit, I have never seen such a charming way of paraphrasing "your post was BS"...:) 1. Israels security concerns: Come on, ivo, operation "Cast Lead" has probably shown the very last human being in Europe (and elsewhere) who still may have had some doubts with regard to Israels capability of defending herself, that the Israel of 2009 is capable of "trashing" her Arab neighbours whenever she likes to. There is absolutely ZERO danger coming from the Arabs today, when it comes to the issue of "Israels existence", and you know that as well as I do.... 2. With regard to Hamas: You make a valid point, but I have never said that Hamas should be involved into future negotiations between Israel and Abbas/Fayad. However, at least Hamas leaders have hinted in several interviews last year, that they would be willing to accept a Palestinian state in the borders of 67, something that I haven't heard yet from a leader of the settler movement.... Ahoi..:)

between Israel and its Arab neighbors has been very high priority on Jews' list of priorities since the late 19th centruty. Yet, in light of the Arabs total refusal to accept Israel's legitimacy, indeed to annihilate it, one can't be reached unless: 1. The Arabs recognize Israel's legitimacy as the nation-state of the Jewish people 2. Jerusalem remains Israel's sovereign territory and the capital of Israel and the Jewish people 3. No Arab "refugee" will settle on Israel's sovereign territory 4. Jewish settlement blocs in Samaria and Judea will become part of Israel and in exchange Arab settlement blocs in Israel, e.g. Ara Valley, Triangle 5. Jews living in Judea and Sumaria outside of these blocs will remain to live there, as Arabs continue to live in sovereign Israel 6. Jordan Valley and hilltops will remain under Israeli control for security reasons 7. All land, sea and air crossings into the Arab entity will be under Israeli control for security reaons

"move the arabs to arab lands" Have you contacted any about their willingness to cooperate with Israel in the expulsion of Palestinians?

The illustrious professor should have learned from Socrates that: "The greater the number of strawmen that the arguer uses, the more bogus the argument". The reader is challenged to count the number.

who are in a hurry.those who presume to speak for the palestinians seem to be more concerned then the the palestinians themselves.do the palestinians want to be patronised?are you more able to put forward their case then they are? at ease gentlemen and let the peoples of the middle east solve their own problems.

In Israel today anyone who opposes continued land-grab and ethnic cleansing is labelled 'extreme Left'. By contrast, in countries that are genuine democracies they would simply be called decent human beings and opponents of fascism.

why would you think a one state solution follows as inevitably as you seem to think. the situation is still in flux and may remain so for some years. palestinians in the west bank vote for their government and we in israel vote for ours.what is the rush on your side all about? when the views of the peoples in the area matures we may have massive exchange of land between israel and the palestinians.that may well settle matters between us.why would your screams and rants be of more help then the passage of time.

The world will not accept the current status quo forever. The arabs and the palestinians won't either. If no palestinian state alongside Israel in the future, it will be a palestinian state on what was Israel in the distant future. Which one would you prefer Ron mate?

walid from your world view you are quite right. but i have to ask why you have not awarded palestinians living in lebanon for more then sixty years lebanese citizenship? there are 400000 palestinains in lebanon who are not allowed to seek employment in lebanon.why walid?they have been there since 1948.the british give foreigners citizenship after a five year stay.

Everybody else on this planet would most probably be quite "flattered", if he/she would draw that much attention...:)

All that is nonsense. Oslo did not change a thing. Neither the palestinians nor the israelis put it into practice. There were to be mesures to be taken by the palestinians and a stop to settlements by Israel. Neither happened. Oslo did not failed. We did, us and the palestinians. It didn't change a iota in reality.

Everybody wanted to see the Israelis who were singing and dancing at rallies in 1993 but the people who objected were conveniently ignored because the image the government wanted to show was that everybody was happy about oslo. In 1993 oslo was the unknown and even people who later became sceptics were in favour of it because it at least brought hope but then when they saw that the oslo facade was not the same as the oslo reality support started to drop. Also in 1993 we were talking the early stages issues like refugees, settlements, and Jerusalem hadn't even been made it was more about recognizing the PLO and agreeing with the basic concept of a palestinian state. Its like being given a gift its in nice wrapping paper & a bog box your excited to open this nice big present so you happily rip off the paper all but then you open the box you discover its something you hate and so the excitement is over because its not something you wanted The oslo of 1993 was never the reality of 2009

Prof. Breiman is right. Why bother with a different peace if the present one is perfectly OK? Is this guy a professor?

Israel's refusal to establish peace with the Palestinians and neighboring countries is testament to the rot that is at the center of Israel. Namely that Israelis think that they, as a nation, are 'above' compromise and conciliation to establish an equal standing among the nations of the region and the rest of the world. Until this psyche changes and Israel is willing to meet on equal terms there will never be peace, Ron Breiman article/mindset is testament to this.

dino, the security concerns of your "2.category right-wingers" are valid & israel being a military giant doesn't change that a bit. forget about the US who never fought on israel's behalf any way, the country remains vulnerable - it just takes the right combination of events, taactics & timing to take down any country. BUT: the issue of security & leaving /keeping territory is conditioned by one thing - whether the ME peace process is really credible, whether the pals (& the rest of the arabs) really mean business. that's where the crux & controversy is. there's one more gap in what you're saying: if the jewish believers in jewish ownership of the land are hopelessly lost to their belief, why are people like you constantly reminding us that the the same kind of islamists on the pal. side, particularly those of hamas, are capable of changing their minds? cheers,-

Ron Beiman in saying that it's an either/or situation with logic falling on the side of forgetting all about a Palestinian state since these guys can't hack it, but he neglected to say that from the very beginning of the Zionist enterprise in Palestine/Israel, there had never been an honest intent of letting the Palestinians have their own state. Breiman is not saying anything new but he has found a way of rationalizing why a Palestinian state will never be. Breiman is from another planet and wants it all including the use of the term Nakba.

... that Zionist ultra-nationalists and Arab extremists are two sides of the same coin. Both aspire to the total elimination of the other side.

i dont think i am at all.do i care about their politics?no.all these outsiders visit us daily and tell us what to do.i must say i am mystified. but a persistent question still remains why are they so interested in us to the exclusion of all else.

on the site.they have no emotional investment in israel just as we care little for their nations.they must have their say.

is not the views of the government. Clearly you do not understand this.

At a time when Israel has all but banned Arabs from remembering the Nakba, using this term in this context is absolutely tasteless. The problem is, as it was in 1993, that Israel wants the lands of the Westbank but not it's inhabitants.

He may not have a viable alternative but he has lived through what the intelligencia has chosen to ignore distort and deny.

Soon that is all there will be available. One state for all the inhabitants of Gaza, Israel and the West Bank. Maybe some sort of confederation with guarantees for all groups, something like Lebanon, but unlike Lebanon not imposed from without. Or else just Israeli imposed borders and Palestinian townships utterly dependant on the good grace of Israel. aka APARTHEID.

Let's be clear about this. No Palestinian state? No chance of peace, ever. A Palestinian State? A chance for peace. Departure from Oslo? Final status first, fleshing that out next. The horse has to be in front of the cart this time, not behind it.

So Hardman, you are openly advocating ethnic cleansing. How in the world can a Jewish Israeli find it within themself to advocate ethnic cleansing given Jewish history and the often repeated mantra "never again". My understanding is that "never again" was not something that only applied to Jews but should influence how we approach the treatment of all people.

from Ron. It doesn't get more compelling by repetition. What he totally fails to explain is how continued occupation of the WB and further settlement, water seizure etc are going to lead to Israelis enjoying 'a normal life, without any threats to national or personal security, free to achieve their goals...' It stands to reason that if you occupy and exploit someone else's land, they are most likely to fight back and most unlikely to acquiesce in some skewed, one-sided peace deal. As for Israelis being able to 'receive help from the state instead of giving it their money', that ignores the real transaction: Israelis give the state their money, which the state then spends a ludicrous proportion of subsidizing the settlement enterprise at the cost of more urgent social issues. The dismissal of all opponents as 'far left' is the usual warped Zionist labeling. Like Merkel and Livni, the majority are right wing or center-right. Just not far rightists like Ron.

Israel has been confusing the word peace with quiet since Naomi Shemer wrote the words "vehaSHALOM hazar besof hakayits" when she meant quiet returned at the end of the summer (peace, or anything else for that matter, can't return before it has been).

- feel about it accordingly! the writer states the obvious & something we knew from the start of oslo. if we were to wait till a near total agreement on the crucial issues in the course of history no historical changes /breakthroughs would ever have ocurred. the lesson has also been acknowledged that exactly the fact that the central issues between the israelis & pals were left open-ended & were perceived very differently at the time of oslo, was a main reason for the total collapse of that process. but that doesn't have to mean that a serious attempt at a peace process was wrong. nor does it mean that nothing was achieved through oslo. just the fact that the two sides really talked to each other in the open was a revolution. one has to learn one's lessons as well as take the chance to try to achieve peace, if possible. does the author mean the government of a democratic country should control &/silence the media according to whether they support a certain policy /not?

I would put it like this: There are those "right-wingers", who believe for ideological reasons that all of the West Bank is historically Jewish land, and must never be given up. You will never be able to change the mind of those people, all the International community can do, is to fight them (by non-violent means of course). The second group of Israeli/Diaspora "right- wingers" are mostly seculars, who simply belie- ve that giving up the West Bank will endanger Israels security to an extent that is absolutely unacceptable. That is (from a historical viewpoint) an under- standable position, even if today it lacks any kind of credibility (in view of the fact, that the Israel of 2009 is a military might which is supported and protected by the worlds military super-power, namely the U.S.). The question is: How many of those secular "right-wingers" are infected today by the ideological virus of those, who wanna see a "Greater Israel" at any costs...???

Sure, Peace means war to bitter end...and we all should side with Zionists because they say so. Right. What this article does admit - is that Zionists do not believe in fair settlement and division of land. The Oslo Agreement is now considered 'war time' and those who believed in a just solution were 'duped' and 'naive'. Sad. Very sad.

a repeated experiment doing the same stupid things and expecting adifferent result each time ! its time to grasp the nettle to move the arabs to arab lands and finally acheive peace !

The writer's position is clearly stated except for one thing: Are we to understand his message to mean that the Palestinians, in the absence of a Palestinian state, will be included in the one state of Israel? Please state this clearly. And if not, will they be stateless?

Oh, the hawkish far right... And what does Mr Breiman propose instead of a Palestinian State? The continuation of the Status Quo (i.e. apartheid)? Formally annexing the Occuppied Territories and granting its 4m Palestinian inhabitants full Israeli citizenship?

Today we understand that Oslo was a failure. But at the time the risks needed to be taken. When an opportunity arises which brings hope of a resolution, you can't hide your head in the sand in paranoia that everyone's out to get you. History has happened and there's no telling what "would have happened" had Rabin not been assisnated, but its always possible that Arafat may have been swept up in the tide and managed to be kept in check. As any businessman will tell you, the threat of failure is no reason not to make your best effort. If you're afraid of failure and therefore you do not try, then you can be considered nothing less than a failure. Only those who strike out against the odds ever succeed in anything.

So the choice is between a Palestinian state and peace? Well, since there is no Palestinian state yet, peace must be here right now. Congratulations!

It's nice to finally hear someone speaking with some common sense and tell the truth. We have to be realists. Thank you, Ron!

so..let us grant you your analysis of the process until now..How do you propose to reach Peace...(or do you really just mean Attempt to Retain Total Control??) Is Peace continued construction and expansion of Jewish presence without ANY equivalent progress for non-Jewish residents of the One Peaceful State you envision. What have those who want a Strong Israel done to show that they also want a Morally Strong Israel that follows the Biblical command of one law..or respecting the individual human rights of ALL the inhabitants. Please give the word Peace some content.

As always, with guys like this, you can just about follow his argument until it reaches the question of: 'If you don't want the Palestinians to have a state, what do you want to do with them?' And as usual, no answer on that. I can't imagine Ron wants a unitary state with Pals and Jews having equality. But the only other options seem to be vicious ethnic cleansing to Jordan, or indefinite continuation of the present PA Bantustan situation, with tiny pockets of Pal semi-control surrounded by Israeli guns and settlements. Unfortunately for the Israeli right, the world won't accept Pals being kept as serfs forever. So what's it to be Ron?

This is pointless and poor double speak. The author is ambigious and vague because he's not writing on ynetnews where he could be as openly right-wing as he liked. This kind of dribble is annoying because they annoying authors never answer the two main questions they present in their annoying essays 1) so what is this "peace" that is the alternative to the two-state solution? 2) define this "peace" and how we will achieve it? the sort of writing that is "wink, wink, ya know what i mean" is either idiotic or insidious. Idiotic because it might sound like the author is confused and old and his train of thought has drifted off or insidious because the "wink, wink, ya know what i mean" could mean the most awful of things.

there is far too much pressure on israel to do a deal.we should follow our own interests and wait for the situation to mature.no matter how long that takes.

If it did it won't be still, decades later, occupying and stealing Palestinian land and resources, oppressing and killing Palestinian civilians, attacking neighboring countries etc etc. Israel has taken, of late, no pro-active steps towards just and lasting peace. Even now Israel is rejecting Obama's peace plans and biting the hand that feeds! This refusal by Israel to embrace peace is only understandable in the context that Israel wants to exist as an insular religious identity/ideology. Such a mindset harks back to the Dark Ages and should not be encouraged or supported.