Israel's real existential threat is Arab and Haredi isolation

Israel can remain a state that's Jewish in character and constitution, and remain the homeland of the Jews (with Law of Return), without discrimination against Arab and other non-Jewish inhabitants. I believe we need a better accommodation, so no group is disadvantaged. To be fair: Arabs having state-funded education teaching anti-Israel propaganda? Arabs being exempt from military service, while the non-haredi Jews are obliged? That's discrimination in favour of Arabs, and once anti-Arab discrimination is removed, so must special privileges. I worry about arguments for a post-Jewish state - in which Jews have no special role, and Israel is not recognised as the Jewish homeland. I can live in London for now, despite anti-semitic attacks, cemetery desecrations etc. If things here get worse, I know Israel will intervene on my behalf, and in the worst case,accept me and my family as returnees to our ancestral land. That safety net is invaluable, more so for Jews in less stable countries.

"Arab citizens are not required to serve in the Israeli military. Until 2000, each year between 5%-10% of the Bedouin population of draft age volunteered for the Israeli army, and Bedouin were well-known for their unique status as volunteers. Today the number of Bedouin in the army may be less than 1%. A 2003 report stated that willingness among Bedouin to serve in the army had drastically dropped in recent years, as the Israeli government has failed to fulfill promises of equal service provision to Bedouin citizens." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel# Military_conscription Dr. L. Brnd, your fuzzy thinking reminds me of Effi Eitam. "Eitam was heard over a radio telling his troops to beat and break the bones of a 21-year-old Palestinian prisoner named Ayyad Aqel. They beat him to death. An Israeli Army court martial convicted four of his soldiers, who testified against him. The Advocate General severely reprimanded Eitam and recommended that he never be promoted. After his retirement from military service, Eitam entered politics, joining the National Religious Party. He was first elected to the Knesset in January 2003, and was appointed Minister of Housing and Construction in March 2003. Of Palestinian leader Marwan Barghouti, then being investigated by Israel, he said, 'Take him out to an orchard and shoot him in the head.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effi_Eitam Appointed Minister of Housing and Construction (in charge of the settlements construction) by then PM Sharon.

Very healthy discussion is going on. It would be nice if all the people in Gaza, Israel and West Bank can read this and come to understand the reality that their best interest is to live together without any kind of differences to observe. Had this been done this would have been a place for an envy. Many of us don?t realize that the elite groups of any society, religious or secular, have their main task of keeping people in constant fear and in false hopes. This makes their work very easy, but the price the majority pay is very great.

Just as Muslims who decided to stay back in India in 1947 integrated generally (at least for 40 years, until some self-appointed "leaders" started claiming they should have special laws) in the largely-Hindu (but oficially secular) society of that country.

Blacks and Mexicans in most of US had no real civil rights until after WW2, same time frame as Israel's "history" with Arabs, 1940's onward. Jews are no less indigenous to Palestine than Arabs - at the end of the 1800's, the population of what became the State of Israel in 1948 was less than 150,000, Jews and Arabs. Where did 5 million "Palestinian Arabs" come from in 100 years? They IMMIGRATED into the area, 700,000 from Levant civil war in 30's alone (said League of Nations), pouring in from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq areas to escape sectarian violence, work in colonial Brit industries. Jews had a historic connection to the land that Euro-explorers/settlers never had to the New World. You leftist indigenous native peoples narrative is crap. White settlers in America fought with some Indian tribes, coexisted with others. Apache, Navajo tribes whose chiefs you romanticize were nomadic PREDATORS of agrarian tribes who were happy to see their asses kicked when they tried preying on white men.

Have you noticed that the least safe place for Jews on this planet is Israel? (And the least safe city for Jews in Israel, is Jerusalem.) How many wars since the founding? I've lost count. As long as the Palestinians under Israeli rule do not have justice, Israel will not have safety. You live in the second most safe country on the planet for Jews, Great Britain. (The most safe is the USA). Why? precisely because these countries are not "Christian states", but rather states of all of their people, each having equal rights under law, with protections for minorities of every variety.

Every Israeli knows that Israel can handle any external threat or agression. Moreover, Israelis know very well that the real threat to the country comes from radical jews who disagree with the path the majority choose and will not hesitate to use violence to achieve their objectives. They already assasinated a sitting prime minister, killed innocent palestinians, threatened to establish thier own radical Jewish state. God only knows what they would do if they don't get their way

Much of the resentment towards Jewish folk is BECAUSE Israel continues to illegally acquire other folk`s territories, while crying victim. Illegally??? who cares??? United States has ROBBED LAND.... LEGALLY. So?????it makes it better? Australia has slavished aborigens LEGALLY? Does it make it better?? Crying victim????you bet it. Against jews there was a genocide. On the other hand Palestinans and Jews are fighting for the same piece of land. A tiny Israel state against a great part of the Muslim world. A world of difference. By the way, Jews come first in the land of Israel. In other words Jews are natives. Differently from Aussies who are colonizers.

Jews need a homeland? Then how come you are living in London, genius?

Since the country was established Israeli-Arabs wanted (and still do)to integrate in the collective Israeli society, unfortunatly, we were shunned, exculded and discriminated against by our coutry men the jews. I do hope this changes soon as all we want is be part and contribute to the success of this wonderful country.

excellent post

"Arab citizens are not required to serve in the Israeli military. Until 2000, each year between 5%-10% of the Bedouin population of draft age volunteered for the Israeli army, and Bedouin were well-known for their unique status as volunteers. Today the number of Bedouin in the army may be less than 1%. A 2003 report stated that willingness among Bedouin to serve in the army had drastically dropped in recent years, as the Israeli government has failed to fulfill promises of equal service provision to Bedouin citizens." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel# Military_conscription Dr. L. Brnd, your fuzzy thinking reminds me of Effi Eitam. "Eitam was heard over a radio telling his troops to beat and break the bones of a 21-year-old Palestinian prisoner named Ayyad Aqel. They beat him to death. An Israeli Army court martial convicted four of his soldiers, who testified against him. The Advocate General severely reprimanded Eitam and recommended that he never be promoted. After his retirement from military service, Eitam entered politics, joining the National Religious Party. He was first elected to the Knesset in January 2003, and was appointed Minister of Housing and Construction in March 2003. Of Palestinian leader Marwan Barghouti, then being investigated by Israel, he said, 'Take him out to an orchard and shoot him in the head.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effi_Eitam Appointed Minister of Housing and Construction (in charge of the settlements construction) by then PM Sharon.

No reason Israel can't require same oath US has. ALL federal office holders, employees, appointees, military are required to swear an oath to uphold the Constitution and laws "against all enemies, foreign and domestic". No reference to religion. Its been the same oath for 200+ years, including before 1964 Civil Rights Act when the US was wrongly run in some respects as if it was a Christian state. SO WHAT? England has Anglican Church as state religion, Sweden has Lutheran church as state religion, Italy, France, Spain are constitutionally Catholic states, there are 2 dozen countries with Muslim state religions. Israel's entitled to have Judiasm as state religion, the faith of the 80% majority. No more "aparthied theocracy" than UK is. Yom Kippum is a legal holiday in Israel, as Christmas in USA. Israel has same right to demand loyalty of ALL citizens in EXACTLY the way the US does. You fall into the trap of assuming Israel has to act as a miniature USA; WRONG, its the Jewish Homeland.

Have you noticed that the least safe place for Jews on this planet is Israel? (And the least safe city for Jews in Israel, is Jerusalem.) How many wars since the founding? I've lost count. As long as the Palestinians under Israeli rule do not have justice, Israel will not have safety. You live in the second most safe country on the planet for Jews, Great Britain. (The most safe is the USA). Why? precisely because these countries are not "Christian states", but rather states of all of their people, each having equal rights under law, with protections for minorities of every variety.

Two ironic things come to mind looking at the perspective Israel faces. 1. The religious Jewish façade of the state of Israel is based on an Ottoman style millet system hindering separation of state and religion and by that rendering the idea useless that Israel is a homeland to every Jew in the world, simply because it rather tries to define Jewishness than neutrally accepting all forms of it. 2. The only potential workforce for preserving Israel's secular character at avail in the moment is the Arab one, truly ironic, but what a chance. Go for it, all the rest will level out.

"For those who do wish to stay, they should remember that in a truly integrated society there would be NO "Arab schools" - just integrated ones, with a Jewish majority, funded by the Jewish state, with Jewish teachers and a curriculum suited for a Jewish society. Replace "Arab" with Kurdish" and "Jewish" with "Turkish" - and there we have an exact description how a civil war is generated. But probably you trust in the Jewish mantra: If force fails, more force will do the job.

History shows that all peoples on the face of the earth either have a homeland that they can evacuate to if required, and which can stand up for them diplomatically or even militarily if persecution arises - or those people get kicked about. Jews in particular have a vast and vulnerable diaspora, and there is widespread anti-semitism. A Jewish State with Law of Return is 100% necessary for the Jewish people - yes, even ones who have never trod on Israeli soil before, or who have no relatives in Israel. Because one day they know they may need it. My comment was addressed to those commenters here who seem to think Israel should become a completely integrated, post-Jewish, multicultural state. One consequence would be an end to the Jewish character of Israel and the Law of Return. That puts millions of Jews at risk. "Jewish folk are no more persecuted than any other minority" - I take it, CJ, you have never read a history book? Visited Poland? Or met a neofascist or radical Islamist?

It's not scaremongering to say the Jews need a homeland. Jews are in danger all over the world, even now; centuries of experience show what happens if there is not a Jewish state to proect them. The problem isn't "the Jewish homeland is doomed and Hitler has won!" It's the fact that the next time there is a major persecution, there needs to be a state that will stand up for Jews in international forums, take military action if required, and give them a place to live if expelled. It's great there are happy, free, democratic, multi-cultural countries out there. It's great Jews can live there with legal protection. But those states are not obliged - by their electorate or constitution - to stand up for Jews elsewhere. So long as Israel is a Jewish state, the Jewish people have a secure future. If Israel becomes a "Post-Jewish state", Jews around the world will have to rely on Arab voters in Israel or the goodwill of other countries. That is a gamble that a vulnerable people cannot afford

It allows people who have NEVER set foot in Israel to 'return' to Israel. It also allows the same folk, who have NEVER set foot in the region and/or who have no blood ties to anyone who ever did live in the region (converts), to settle in illegally acquired PALESTINIAN territories, usurping folk who HAVE never left the region. As for Jewish persecution In the majority of countries on the planet, Jewish folk are no more persecuted than any other minority, one only has to read the news. Much of the resentment towards Jewish folk is BECAUSE Israel continues to illegally acquire other folk's territories, while crying victim.

While I disagree with DR. L. Brnd, you are completely out of place. Where does he refer to christianity in his argument? And what position and knowledge do you hold to claim Israel is a theocracy? You probably take word for word what a charismatic anarchist figure told you, or what you read from fringe far-left journals. I guess we must accept that there will always be people in this World for whom reason and self-thought is not a strong attribute...

Not to mention the horrible school system. Israel should have one public school system for all Israelis. All Jewish (haredi) and Muslim/Christian schools should be private and not funded by the government. All students in the public schools should be tought the same (depending of course on levels such as "gifted" or "special needs") and private schools should have to follow a basic curriculum. These designed segregated neighborhoods need to stop. As long as Arabs, secular Jews, Haredim and others live separately it's easy for them to have prejudicial feelings about the Other and not have to deal with them (fellow countrymen) on an everyday basis. Also, Haredim need to work! The government needs to stop handing out money and deal with discrimination against them. Arabs too. discrimination against them needs to stop along with the sexism in their (and all) communities). Either all citizens join the military, or abolish mandatory sentences.

Take a look at Article II, Sec.1, para.9 of the U.S. constitution. It provides that the president shall, before taking office, swear to "preserve, protect and defend" the Consitution. Does that Constitution say anything about a "Christian State"? Does it say America is to be a "homeland for the Christians"? The Constitution has 5,241 words in it (as amended). If you can find the word "Christain", or even "God" in it, I will pay $10,000 to the charity of your choice. Israel is an apartheid theocracy. No one should swear allegience to it. American is a democracy (however imperfect). Would you swear allegience to the "Christian States of America"? I won't.

How much, if at all, will this change their basic worldview and their desire to force their brand of religion on the secular public? Not muc, I am afraid. Even today, one's personal life isdictated to a great extent by Halakha (Jewish law) - what I can eat, who I can marry, how I can or can not get divorced - even how I can become a Jew. What is more, the Israeli Rabbinate and its Courts are being manned more and more by Hareidim

it is receiving the expected number of hostile responses. OMG - if we treat everyone with kindness and respect and equal rights (i.e., act like a real democracy), the Jewish Homeland is doomed and Hitler has won! I live in the U.S. - a democracy and a Christian country (i.e., majority Christian, Christian holidays are national holidays) - but my rights are protected by laws and these laws are enforced: it's called Equal Protection and Separation of Church and State. It seems to me, more and more, this frenzied insistence on keeping a Jewish majority at the expense of both Jewish and democratic ideals is what has the real power to destroy Israel - by imploding from within.

You only need to look at the news to see how Jews are persecuted and discriminated against, all over the world. Even in countries where that persecution is non-official (often performed by immigrant Muslim groups and ideological campaigners from the far left and far right) it can be severe, and moreover these countries are in danger of tipping from unofficial to official discrimination, especially as the importance of Muslim voter blocs grows. As a result we absolutely NEED a Law of Return, to our homeland, to guarantee the safety of the Jewish people. The greatest Jewish tragedies occurred when we lacked our own nation-state to protect us. We cannot rely on others. Muticulturalism in Israel will fail to protect our people worldwide as only a state Jewish by law and character will be prepared to pay a heavy price and take great risks when the Jews need it. A Judo-Arab multiculti state will lack that determination.

Europe has some type of similar problem. It needs more population but does not want the population it has; Muslims. Scandinavian countries and others do now what Swedish Social democracy promoted in the 1940's: positive eugenics. They do it silently but they do it. Encourage the productive middle class to have more children. Encourage productive homosexuals and lesbians to have families. Discourage immigrants to have children by diminishing welfare to big families. Middle class familes have to reach 4 children, and big immigrant families should be encourage to reduce to 4. That is done by promoting work of women out of the house and reducing welfare. For the Haredim the same thing. In sum for Europe 1)Stop immigration 2)Encourage middle clase to breed 3) National integration to foreigners 4) End of welfare for big non productive families Israel has to learn part of these programs and implement them.

None of the groups you mentioned have the recent history that Israel has with the Arabs, It took hundreds of years from slavery to civil rights, same with the Mexican and Native American, try getting Geronimo or Crazy horse to swear loyalty to the people who took their land? IT TOOK TIME before they considered themselves "American" Stick to chiropracting 'Doc' or whatever it is you 'Doctor'...

As a South African ex-pat in the US, I look at what is happening in Israel from a different point of view. I see the people of the Land headed for a major identity crisis; the clear possibility that outside agendas hae hiddn from plain sight, the fact that a good percentage of the Palestinian "Arabs" are in fact, descendents of Jews! This track must be followed and nurtured if peace will come! Check out my link! http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/402359860/the-land

what israeli arabs and native americans have in common, unlike the mexicans and african-americans, is that they were indigenous to this land for at least a number of centuries. while i do not put in question the legitimacy of our state (i would argue israel has more legitimacy in this land than the palestiniens) and i believe israeli arabs should commit to national service, there needs to be reciprocity in the equation. most hispanic-americans today are voluntary immigrants. no free, rational african-american in 1865 would desirably return to a continent dominated and exploited by exterior powers. on the other hand, neither natives nor israeli arabs involved themselves in international affairs. only the latter have the privilege to say they have not been completely annihilated, and thus their opinion is more crucial in israel than the poor natives in the usa.

"Sharon repeatedly said time was working for Israël." That is correct, frenchreader. Sharon has been proven wrong, and Ami Ayalon totally right. "Time is against us. Demographically, it works for the Palestinians, and politically, in favor of Hamas and the settlers." Ami Ayalon, retired Chief of the Israeli Navy, former Director of the General Security Services (Shin Bet/Shabak), feb 1996 to may 2000. Former Labor MK, to Sylvain Cypel of 'Le Monde', Dec 22, 2001. Which shows how impossible it is to tell the truth to the Israelis and be elected Prime Minister (and stay in life). See also under Amram Mitzna, retired Major General, former Chief of the Central Comman (West Bank), Medal of Distinguished Service for his actions during the Six-Day War and the Kippur War, both of which saw him wounded. Twice elected mayor (Labour) of Haifa. Won the Labour's leadership elections in 2002 with 54% of the vote. In 2003 ran against Sharon, and lost. "Mitzna proposed that Israel pursue further negotiations with the PA, but if it wouldn't yield a solution, that Israel withdraw from the Gaza Strip and most of the WB, and unilaterally set its final borders. His position was lambasted by A. Sharon, though later partially implemented by him as the disengament plan." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amram_Mitzna Mitzna is now mayor of Yeruham (population of 9,400), in the Negev. In 2001, very few Israelis took Ami Ayalon's warning seriously. Today, Hamas, whose name, up to the first Intifada, no one had heard, is in full control of the Palestinian parliament and of the Gaza Strip - now an islamist enclave we cannot live with nor defeat. And the settlement movement has turned into a golem no Israeli PM dares confront and challenge anymore.

As long as haredi and (some) Israeli Arabs resist recognizing and accepting the legitimacy of the Jewish State, refusing loylty to the state and national service,the rest of Israelis will feel resentful and uncomfortable dealing with them as economic equals. Its human nature. A hallmark of Diaspora Jews for centuries has been loyalty and obedience to the king and state in which we lived. The haredi observed this rule in Romania, etc., and observe it in the USA - its only in Israel they think they can give the State the finger! And Israeli Arabs must learn that socioeconomic equality comes with the image of loyalty and service to the state - why the Black Power revolutionary movement died out in the US. Israeli Arabs who went to Hebrew University right out of high school won't compete well for job success with Israelis who do years of national service, and why should they? Nor will Northern Movement Islamic radicals - who will hire them?

You assume America's required loyalty oaths and national service won't apply for Israel because US doesn't have "70 million" disaffected, angry minorities with a gripe against the State. But you're just wrong, and here's why: consider 30 million US African Americans, descendents of slaves of 19th century no full civil rights until 1964, consider 45 million Mexican Americans from whom we stole Texas, Arizona and California (in addition to million or so American Indians you think are only ethnicities in US with an angry complaint, valid or not). You see, comparison is 100% accurate, and the US DOES have the "70 milllion" people with unhappy histories with us. Those 70 million are nonetheless loyal citizens of our country, who fight and die with us, and who take loyalty oaths and observe wartime national service requirements. Why? They're also at risk from enemies, just as most of the civilian dead from Hezbollah rockets were Israeli Arabs. Your fuzzy thinking reminds me of Haim Oron!

Lust and power among the Haredim?! Its as if the old Mapai was populated by pious old men never thought of using their power on sectors that had their own opinions. What was the "Esek Bish"? What caused B-G to leave The Party to establish "another party". And,yes, didn't the Old Man aka B-G say a government without Mapam and Herut! That the Haredim have their divisions of opinion is not necessarily any different than the annals of the political life in the State during the early days when they were cast off into a corner, as if they would disappear. They didn't, dude, so if they do exert the influence, often promoting social issues that the erstwhile progressives in this country forget sometimes, you might reconsider the way to talk about Haredim.

There you are in Israel enjoying democracy for Jews only and chances are like many Israelis you haven't spoken out against your government's oppression and violations of the Palestinian peoples' rights under oc-cupation in the territories at the expense of your tribesmens' unlawful residence in the Palestinian territories Yet let anyone infringe upon your rights and you are threatening to leave the country. Well, what kind of a moral conscience do you have anyhow to not give a damn about how the Israeli army is vio- lating the Palestinian peoples' rights at gunpoint and trapping them behind an evil wall & damn checkpoints to promote its kind? Of all people -to see to Jew tolerate this shocking injustice of the Palestinian people and show no shame whatsoever even when they go into their Holocaust museums and see their people behind barbed wire & under the ugly will of the Nazi Army and not reflect back to what their army is doing in the territoritories How uncaring & selfish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

"Without settlers and their kids, who would fill Idf ranks?" (Trumpeldor) There was a time when most of the IDF officers were young [leftist] kiboutz members. That was before our deluded leaders decided, soon after june '67, that the newly conquered territories were our genuine possession and, without bothering to first annex them, launched their foolish settlement project on a land outside our sovereignty, as if we were the last of colonialist powers, and the stateless population we had taken control of, had consented to stay forever our silent and obedient subjects.

The solution is easy. Tell arabs to leave the country and tell religious people to work and serve in the army. Rabbis were working in the elder times.

Probably for the same reason jews are accepted in other countries without having to totaly integrate. Like having their own schools, sometimes hospitals etc...it's called living with the others difference and tolerating other points of view.

canada is a multicultural state wherein the immigrant communities thrive as active members in society as a whole, in addition to preserving their cultural heritage. why could israel not do the same? the fact is that the two (future) dominant communities are far from reaching their full potential, so not only can catastrophe be avoided, but there is plenty of room for economic growth and further development. canada is bound by the principle of a multicultural state. israel should have something similar, whereby its citizens are bound by tzahal, economic well-being, love of peace, love of coexistence, love of jerusalem.

"Settlers and territories" are saving Israel." (Trumpeldor) Total nonsense and cheap rightist propaganda. Settlers and occupied territories are making nearer and nearer the day the Two State solution has been rendered obsolete and impracticable. "The settlements prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state in the Land of Israel. This is the goal, and this is the reality." Daniella Weiss, a prominent veteran settlement leader, former mayor of Kedumim, a West Bank settlement, from 1996 to 2007, to Bob Simon reporting on the spread of Jewish settlements, in CBS ?60 Minutes?, Jan. 25, 2009. www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/23/60minutes/ main4749723.shtml "Without territories, how would you maintain a security envelope around Ben Gurion airport?" (Trumpeldor) What a dumb question, in the age of drones, spy/surveillance satellites and ballistic deadly missiles. Trumpeldor, have you ever tried to think, I mean all by yourself? Try once. It doesn't hurt, I promise.

Dear doctor, Suggesting swearing an oath of allegiance? You don't seem to have grasped the point of the article. It's not about making Zionists out of the Arabs and Haredim. Every one is entitled to his opinion. It's about working with them to improve our co-habitation of this piece of real estate. If you want them to make an oath, that should be the nusach.

Folks, What's happening in Israel is very similar to what's happening in California. People from outside the region took it over through military force (the Hagana and the U.S. Army, respectively), and, slowly but surely, the "natives" are reclaiming the land through demographic force (Arabs/Haredim and Mexicans, respectively). Anyone who wants to claim that Haredim aren't natives should check how often Zion and Jerusalem are mentioned in their daily prayers. This is a force of nature that can not be resisted without forced population transfer. The writer deserves many accolades for approaching the issue rather as a "great opportunity".

And it has no place in the 21st century and the global economy. Amazing isn't it the whole separation of church and state was sorted out over 200 yrs ago in the American Constitution and there is Israel and Jews still clinging on .... Well, my advice folks if you want to make it in the modern world climb up the ladder and get with it! Dutch http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?item=about_firstamd

Sharon repeatedly said time was working for Israël.

"The real Haredim do not follow the state, do not accept welfare, and have their own schools and services." (Bruria) You are mistaking Haredim for 'Neturei Karta' ('The Guardians of the City', in aramaic) See, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta We have today two Haredi parties in the (18th) Knesset, one is Shas with 11 seats, and 'United Torah' with 5. Both are pretty much accepting state welfare (an understatement). See, http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israel_elects_18th_Knesset "We Jews must learn to live and let live amongst ourselves ... " (Bruria) Face reality: We shall never learn to do that, as long as we keep trying to force our will on a foreign and stateless population.

This should include ALL Israelis, Jewish Secular, Arab AND Haredi.

It is not only much easier to integrate the Arab population into Israeli society but it is also much better for Israeli society. The Israeli Arabs are a very educated people. WHile they have received much descrimination in the workplace, they are beginning to achieve very high marks in high tech and advanced academic places in our society. While Israel is a State dedicated to the welfare and preservation of Jewish culture, it is better defined as a Democratic State and the Israeli Arabs will be very useful in our achieving this goal. The Haredi Community is actively working against this. The sooner Israeli Society recognizes this problem and deals with it (forcing Haredi schools to teach citizenship, "real" Zionist" and Israeli history, math, etc...) the better.

Dear mr Jensen, 1.Without settlers and their kids,who would fill Idf ranks ? -Leftists no way -Arabs forget it 2.Without territories,how would you maintain a security envelope around Ben Gurion airport ??? Delusion in Denmark is easy but Israel's future is different from Hamlet's

in fifty years the area will be a potential demolition zone and the haredim and arabs will not be isolated . Plan for 2060.Mass evacuation plans Mass nuclear shelters and Mass community submarines space craft and anti --missiles systems are inevitable the sooner the better.

Israel is not the only country which will soon have a population that can no longer be supported by its working taxpayers. In most countries it is due to the changing ratio between the elderly and those of working age. In Israel the "symptoms" are different but the outcome the same. In both cases, the solution could be the same. Cut benefits so that those who have no reason not to work, must focus on getting a job.

People always seem to classify Jews as either secular or haredim. Not so. The real Haredim who do not follow the state do not accept welfare, and have their own schools and services. And now many are entering the work force and yes, even the IDF. The problem is with articles like this that use wide generalizations. I have spent a number of years trying to learn about different "strains" of Judaism, and it is mind-boggling! I have my own customs, but I enjoy spending time with others as well. It Is Possible to do this without taking out a membership! We "Jews" must learn to "live and let live" amongst ourselves if we want to hang on to our country. That is where the problem lies--it is much like racism, and anti-semitism and every bit as divisive.

If it is true that Israel's future relies on integrating Arabs and Haredim, and given that "buying in shops that employ Arabs and Haredim, hiring workers from these communities, renting apartments to them ... " alone has very little chance to change their perception of the world and make Zionists out of them - then, I am surprised you have not come to the only logical conclusion: Israel has no future.

How can anyone doubt that the illegal settlers and there supporters are the real threat to Israel? These extremists not prevents the only solution to the conflict with the palestinians, that is full withdrawal to 1967 borders, but the also corrupt the israeli society step by step. Already these extremists have massively infiltrated the IDF is suspected of being behind hundreds of intentional killings of civilians in gaza. And when will the west start wondering if these lunatics can get their hands on some of israels WMD's?

Well, we are still optimistic, what the writer did not take into consideration, maybe we will have to be grateful if the Haredim community will integrate us to them :-D

A delusion in which peace was impossible because in refusing to see with positive eyes what was around us, we were also unable to foresee what our reactions would provoke amongst those people. So this is the beginning of reality. Living in a dream in which Arabs and haredim don't exist is delusional. Coming to grips with it will be the start of something better.

Stop government subsidies to those who want to spend their lives in Yeshiva and the Haredim will go back to what most Haredim do in hutz la'aretz, i.e. work for a living. There's tremendous potential amongst our Arab and Haredi populations that gets completely wasted because of blind prejudice and stupidity. A side-effect of the bottom-up revolution of which you speak would be less negative stereotyping in media and education, increased public openness to our surroundings and, with time, the possibility of building a real and lasting relationship with those of our neighbors who wish to live in peace with us. In which case, Gabi Ashkenazi, or whoever succeeds him, will not need to lose sleep.

What Aluf Benn missed out on is that the Haredim and the Arabs both have a vested interest and a voice. What they lack is leaderhip. The Arab leaders spend most of their time infighting, rather than exploiting Israeli democracy to better themselves. It's a simple fact (yet a complex issue) that if the Arabs voted as one block, they'd have about 24 seats in the Knesset and much greater power. It's also a simple fact that the Haredim have been corrupted for decades and their lust for money and power is the biggest chilul Hashem facing Jews. The Arabs need unity, and the Haredim need individual brainpower. Both are unlikely until the demographic problem reaches crisis stage. The Arabs must learn to unite and Haredim must learn to think for themselves (as Hashem demands) rather than having their rabbis do it for them...and badly.

Will the last one out please remember to turn off the lights?

One need not read more than Asrael's concern.

Agree..if these demographics are true, Israel as we know it can no longer survive..the Arabs will take over while the Haredi men stay inside studying Torah.

Trying to compare Israel with the USA? how about this for a comparison; imagine when the white europeans were conquering the ' Indians' they decided to let them integrate instead of killing them all, and now you have 70 million Native Americans who are aware of their history and have no intention of swearing allegiance...

And requiring a loyalty oath to the State from all who serve or hold national office, just as the USA does. Those individuals who won't serve or won't swear allegiance, no vote and no Knesset seat. You no playa da game, you no maka da rules!

It's a fact that religious Jews, including Chareidim AND religious Zionists, are having more children than anyone else. Forget about the Arabs. They are our enemies. What you need to understand is that the nation of Israel's future is the same as the past- as Jews. Embrace it and together let's move forward.

I am all for getting haredim out and working, but I have a question. How do you force people to learn subjects in school that they don't want to learn? Even if the haredi schools are forced to teach secular subjects and hire good teachers, the parents will tell the kids that those subjects are not important and the kids won't learn seriously. Without good math and English, a person can't suceed in high tech.

That Israel is a demographic time bomb, that was never a big secret. But it really scares me how fast we gonna face this sad reality. How is it possible to integrate a haredi community into the social mainstream. Those people don't recognize the reality nowadays and take my freedom away, what gonna be one day if the are equal to us seculars? Is a vice squad braking into my appartment then when I smoke on shabat and watch TV? I swear, if the day will come that Haredim are sitting with me in my office, or they are only around me, I gonna leave this country, as 50% of all Israelis will do. GOOD NIGHT ISRAEL - YOU GONNA DESTRUCT YOURSELF A THIRD TIME!!!

I am far from Indonesia over seeing that conflict Arab-Israel inevitably to be happened. However God is the almighty, why can not control the lives of the natures in a good track and preventing blood shed? I think we have to realize that we are likely animals indeed...but some times human beings is more brutal and immoral among them selves. Are Arabs have a better moral than Israelis? My answer is: NO ! Regards, Mursal Mahmud glahkeubu@yahoo.com +6287890737531

Okay, admittedly, they could convert to Judaism ... but the chances of that are effectively nil. If they live in a Jewish state they have to play by Jewish rules. Naturally they will find it hard to be successful in a society and culture that is alien to their own. But if they want to succeed in a more familiar cultural and religious setting, the door out of Israel is always open for them. And so long as their family and dependants go with them, this solves many other problems too - no unemployed Arabs to pay welfare to, no need for a Jewish state to provide Arab schools. For those who do wish to stay, they should remember that in a truly integrated society there would be NO "Arab schools" - just integrated ones, with a Jewish majority, funded by the Jewish state, with Jewish teachers and a curriculum suited for a Jewish society.