Improve the image

Want to improve Israels image? Israel should keep its promises to stop funding the Palestinian authority and stop reversing policy the next day. Declare war on Hamas since they declared Israel's destruction-an act of war. Stop pussyfooting around and use the full force of Israel's might to eliminate the Hamas enemy before it atacks the Israeli citizens. Attack the antisemites in the world who tell lies about Israel when they say it. Warn Iran that its an act of war to declare Israel should be eliminated. When all these things are said and done then the world will perk up to the fact that Israel can't be pushed around anymore, and the day of concessions to murderers, terrorists,and peaceniks who hope for Israel's disappearance will be over. At that time fresh air will clear the air, the bullet will have been bit and Israel will be on its way to victory.

on the surface, it looks to me like the iranian proposal is better :-D Aluf Ben is just one more guy that believes that being popular is more important than being alive let's make a list of things we can do so they may like us .... moving back to europe is a good start world war II delivered GREAT highs on our popularity - and more recently US's popularity soared after 9/11

There was never a state of palestinian arabs, ever. The so-called palestinian land was never an issue, Jordan use to control the west bank before it lost it to Israel and Egypt controlled the Gaza strip until it too lost it to Israel in wars. Egypt is just happy that Israel decided to give back the peninsula which was gained by Israel fair and square. The USA had help from the french to gain its independence from the UK. The palestinians never had a state hood but were only pilgrims in other nation?s lands. In fact the name for the palestinian being use for its state was never used until the creation of Israel. It would help if you studied history.

Those great atrocities in the Abu ghraib that you write about - Nude poses, intimidation, yeah that was some atrocities in the Abu ghraib. That's nothing in compare to using a small cutting tool use for beheadings to innocent civilians in Iraq that were kidnap by so-called freedom fighters. Those poor prisoners that suffered those so-called great atrocities in the Abu ghraib unlike the innocent civilians were/are all POWs. Also it is known for a fact that the Saudi govt. funds such hatred for the US and all Western states. And it was an American solider how ratted out those so called great atrocities in the Abu ghraib. So you can say that these morals are taught by the Christian faith and American Pride. I never hear any true remorse from any Muslim cleric or country when a beheading or violent behavior in the name of alla! Get your facts straight.

Aluf Ben is correct that Israel must be concerned with its image - but for the wrong reasons. Those who seek to delegitimize Israel are not concerned with substance - Israel's creation was opposed before any concept of an independent Arab Palestine existed, it was opposed before the 1967 occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and it has been consistently assailed since. Israel must pursue just policies that promote national consensus and cohesiveness - the occupation has eroded Israel's self image as a just society - and that is why Israel must disengage from the territories and end its control over the Palestinians. In this sense, the Israeli right has done far more damage to Israel then Hamas has. Unfortunately, anti-semiticism and anti-Zionism are safe terms - but Aluf Ben's laudable suggestions won't change that.

--Aluf Benn-- " Israel is losing its grip on important, influential parts of public opinion in the West, and is being shoved into the corner with rightist, Christian groups that preach in favor of a war of civilizations with Islam. " Israel receives an average of $10 MILLION everyday from the USA welfare Aid system. While Israel does a fantastic job on manipulating US public opinion, its clear they haven't spent enough hard-earned American dollars to white-wash their stains from European Tele's. Secondly, no other country in the World embraced the Openly Racist Apartheid Government of South Africa (AGSA), given Israel's deeds for the past 58 years and its disdain for the Geneva conventions, its not to much of a stretch to compare them to their former AGSA allies, nor would it be a stretch to accuse them of forming partnerships with other White supremacist groups in the US.

why is it that haaretz is posting this? Are they so blind to see that it is exactly their attitude that causes this? Not following jewish law causes the jewish identity to be lost. simple. The problem simply rests with the state. A state that does not follow the Jewish guidelines cannot be called a Jewish state - hence it is quite obvious as to why this state is loosing its identity. Preaching against jewdaism, supporting withdrawals and the like, is blatently contradictorary to the jewish identity. Get a grip of yourself and open your eyes to your own contradictions.

Mr. Benn somehow reminds me of Amira Hess. Sudenly he becomes concerned for the poor Palestinian Angels of Grace, who have been thrown out of most every where they have gone. Remember Jordan and Lebanon, etc? Let's be fair the best friend they have is Israel and look at the way they treat us, instead they are the best friends of those who massacred them.

In his heart of hearts Benn feels that the Arabs are right and that we are in the wrong. This is due to a faulty Israeli education system that has been purged of its Jewish history, identity and faith.

To all of you who piss and moan about Israel's "sins" - the likes of which you will find have been perpetrated many times over by just about every other country in the world - I thank you for holding us to a higher standard. It is truly an honor. If you really cared, you would stop hacking long enough to do something constructive. Like find cures for diseases and perfect technology as we have in ways unparalleled by the very countries who wish we were worthless.

One thing is sure in my view; the 144.000 will be real followers of Jesus. In Revelations 14 : 1 you can read that they will have a sign on forehead with the name of the lamb. The lamb is Jesus. Judaism is no longer the faith from Moses and Jesus, and many Jews became Christians. Therefore, you cannot say that just Jews (known now as Jews) just will be parts of 144.000. Today I read an article on liberal Jews, they even don't believe in a God and they think they are God self, also by being Freemasons? Freemasons behave themselves as 144.000 but they are not. Revelations tells that this atheistic sort of Jews is from a wrong inspiration.

...and not about the phenomenon of clash. The clash of civilizations is going on ever since different cultures had chances to consolidate gradually their own self via encounter of "the other". crusaders, collonialism etc. The question whether one can reduce it to a piece of positive knowledge, that's to say a theory, like that Marx's clash of classes. The whole point is that departing from "essentialist oppositions" (Orientalism in Saidian sense for ex.) whereby Europeans back then and Americans now justify their forceful intervention into the East. In fact "CF" theory annuled even the need of justification. "That's how it is in the history". The prob. is, it is so much more if you adhere to such "theory" and act accordingly. And for the Christian right, for them "CF" is a theory just because "Revelation" chapter in NT

Jane, what are you doing in Palm Beach when Israel so desperately needs every able-bodied man and woman to fight the good fight against the forces of evil. Have you been seduced by the gentle swaying of those palm trees and that deliciously warm weather. Come home to Israel! Your country needs you.

Europe was "guilty" of imperial colonialism and anti-semiticsm up until the holocaust. This reflects on the culture and religion of this continent. But now a post nationalist supra national Europe judges others as guilty of what it once did - Americans (national super power in conflict with Semite Arabs who have the oil Europe needs) or Zionists. The accusation that a persecuted non European minority, are now an alien colonialist in the ME, is the ultimate statement that the pre Christian and pre Moslem biblical people are hated for their ethnic national identity (by both religious supremacists and those who hate religion - American religious supremacists excepted for NOW).

"The question is what the foreign minister and her colleagues in the government are doing in the face of the danger." Ok all said let us hear the "strategic plan" that each has, to bring peace, there are three players here; 1.Israel meaning; the western world and allies. 2.Palestine meaning; Arab world and allies. 3.The opportunist ie those interested in arabic oil or western $$. Each one should let us know their strategic plan, any one among 1 and 2 whose plan is closest to 3 should be the winner. The rest will have to unconditionally accept the results. The only Ref; books required should be the Bible,Tora and Koran because the source of the dispute is historical. Not a joke.

We discuss improving our image and the other side elects the one who shouts death to us?!?! And the world prefers them?!?! Stop thinking of image. They want hatred, you still fight to be loved. We will never be. As long as there are tsunamis, they need the jews to blame. Be strong, untill they get tired. And I always was a leftist. But european leftists love hugging fascist ideas dressed as fighting for freedom.

Aluf Benn remarks that 'The time has come to change priorities, and to give some importance to Israel being just.' Perhaps the Israeli government should consider adopting a good Jewish idea, Emmanuel L?vinas' idea of 'responsibility for the other'? In poilitical terms this would mean treating the Palistinians as they treat their own citizens,a nd there seems to be plenty of evidence that this is not the case at present. Always remember: nothing else has ever worked. This idea can't be any worse than any of the others.

Waht about the Jewish 12-tribe 144,000 in Revelation, Hollingsworth? Are they Roman Catholic, are they christians or muslims? Doesn't the verse clearly state all the 12 tribes of Israel? Rev. 3:7 speaks of the key of David. Is that the key of Muhammed or the Dalai Lama? Rev. 5:3 speaks of the victory of the Lion of Judah! Rev. 15:3 speaks of the song of Moses! It will be sung in the future New Jerusalem. Not the stars and stripes or the songs of Hamas. So, does Israel has a future or not, Hollingsworth?

Why do Haaretz and all the secular left Jews in Israel (and the Diaspora),have this paranoic quest to be approved? I'll tell you why! you are all a bunch of guilt-ridden,self-hating people. Just for once try to seek approval from the only true and loyal ally you have-and I don't mean the U.S.A.- You are God's chosen people to do his will to the best of your ability. What the world thinks is of no cosequence to actions taken by Israel in a war situation according to the will of God. Stop worrying about what the world says when you properly defend your country; worry what the Almighty says if you do not

Those that write for the Guardian, or spread anti Israeli anti Jewish propaganda around the world, or vote against Israel in the UN daily, and so on... Never had a problem with Israel's 1967 "occupation", they had a problem with Israel's 1947 "occupation". Those today in Cuba and Venezula who openly support a Nuclear Iran, don't care what lands Israel gives, or what new "road map" Israel or the US invents, they care about Israel like a person would care about bugs flying in the air... Today, this new leftist-arabist front is growing stronger. Israel will never be liked by this crowd, it is a crowd that seeks Israel's destruction at the end whether by diplomacy or bombings. The ONLY TRUE ANSWER is for Israel to realize that it is alone in the world and protected only by the Almighty, in such it must be tough, strong, and unequivical in its defense - both diplomatically & defensively. This is the mission of the CHOSEN people.

It appears to me that the die is cast. Israel will now do its best to crush the new PA government by starving it financially. They have enlisted the US and EU in this effort. Interestingly, the Israeli government does want the US and EU to continue humanitarian aid to the Palestinian people. The welfare of civilians under occupation is the responsibility of the occupier. This being the case, should the US and EU subsidize this Israeli responsibility?

Get Close to Your G-d to Improve the image... Take time to reread the torah,the prophets & writings and spend time in prayer for both Jews and your enemies....failure to do this will insure problems will go on unresolved !

Let me understand this. Israel is an apartheid state. Hmmmmm. I wonder what you people would label the many Muslim States. How about Gaza? No Jews allowed! Beware! you may lose your head if you enter our country. Yes, the Jews of Israel are vermin. Next time you Jew haters need a doctor, please make sure you don't use a Jewish one.

And why Israel need to allow a safe passage to West Bank from Gaza when newly, popularly elected Hamas government declared that past agreements with Israel aren't going to be honored and that Israel needs to be destroyed. Ibrahim, where's your logic ?

Quote Izrael: "Jews understand that they are safer, stronger with Israel than without Israel"" Reply: I'm not against Israel, but I wonder it is true that Jews are more safe with Israel, when Muslims in Europe more and more attack Jews in Europe, and when terrorists groups attack the citizens of Israel time and again. How many Israeli have a relative wounded or killed by attacks in Israel today?

IF the majority of Europe feels that the US and Israel are the greatest threats to world security, how is it possible that they support them?

Ma'am, I couldn't agree with you more. General boycotts on Israel is a fine way to apply non-violent pressure on this stubborn state. Have you read of Israel's plans to freeze plans a Gaza sea port and safe passage between Gaza and the West Bank? How barbaric of them. And we have fools on this site telling me the occupation of Gaza has ended.

Clash of Civilizations has been declared by the enemies of the West who are also the enemies of Israel. This is the war they are fighting. Ignore the words and actions of your opponents at your peril. Surprised Benn wrote this.

Yoram, I've kept a pulse on support for Israel among Americans since the mid-80's. There is little doubt that Israel's position in public opinion has cratered in the United States. Yes, Israel still retains a slight majority of support, but given where Israel was back in 1980 vs. today....big difference. You are in denial.

Johnie, Great post! Right on! I appreciated the reports too. Thank you, Dutch

Give back the land the jews stole

You refer to the UN for the legitimacy of your comments, what a laugh. They certainly are the embodiment of dictatorial third world countries, human rights violations, and an oil for food scandal. The average American supports Israel, as do average Europeans. They know right from wrong and have common sense.

Spoken like a true optimistic psychiatrist. Small minded? Is that when you don't believe what enemy tells you he is going to do. Beyond a certain point? That must be that when the Arabs get Judea and samaria they Will go for the rest of Israel. You have gone beyond that point. Afraid to? must be the point when rationality sinks in and you start believing that maybe Hamas does want to kill you and maybe you will be in the wrong place art the wong time. Danite only an IDIOT is not afraid when someone tried to kill him 3 times- 1 9 4 8---1948----1 9 4 8 1 9 6 7---1967----1 9 6 7 1 9 7 3---1973----1 9 7 3 But to you we must forget that ancient history.

Really? Is that why the world thinks that the US and Israel are the greatest threats to world security? Is that why every year when the UN votes on how the Israeli Palestinian situation should be handled, 160 countries support a 2 state solution with a full withdrawal from the OT's? The six countries voting against it are Israel, the US, Micronesia and a few other Pacific Islands which rely exclusively on US aid and trade? Is the rest of the world liberal as you say? Please. And by the way, of course Israel deserves to exist, but an Israel which has acquired land through conflict, which is against International law, which continues taking land in a colonialist manner does not. Similarly Apartheid SA did not deserve to exist, but a democratic SA does. This is not a left wing conspiracy, or a few Israelis who criticize their own country, but an international communty which is against occupation and brutality.

Mazen, You are right Israel's legitimacy can never be right until it reconciles the uprooting of over 400 Palestinian villages and its inhabitants for the creation of their state. In addition, a Jewish State is an exclusionary state and it is against international law and human rights laws. Thus, if Israel wishes to be seen as an equal opportunity player in the 21st century global economy it must comply with international law and be an equal opportunity state. Dutch

B'tselem is just like the english media, one sided and anti-israel

You are totaly correct.Toomany Israelis and Jews have become very small minded and cant think beyond a certain point, or maybe are afraid to.

You are totaly correct.Toomany Israelis and Jews have become very small minded and cant think beyond a certain point, or maybe are afraid to.

"YOU refute it - theres 500+ years of history to back it up. ZIONism is the return of Jews to ZION - Israel." Yes, partially true. I would extend that further to say that Zionism has evolved into the committment to establish a majority 'Jewish' and 'democratic' state in historic 'zion'. I think we can all accept that. My point is that the IMPLEMENTATION of that ideology leads to necessarily racist policies. (Please read my earlier posts.) "Secondly - since Jews and arabs are both semites - it cant be RACISM" Oh, ok. Let's change the term to ETHNICISM then. Fine by me. The concept of race is inaccurate in any case. The point is the institution of policies that clearly value the lives of those from your own constructed 'national' (or tribal, etc) group over those of another. My point, once again, is that anyone in the same situation, holding the same ideological assumptions, would be logically forced to implement such policies. Its a tragedy of geography, demography and ideology.

I lived there most of my life and the english jews are not much better towards Israel then you are Johnie. Can't really blame you if i watched the news from your country i may think the same also.

"[You cant ignore] that the Jews have the right to their homeland. Why do you support a homeland for "Pals", who never had it, and you are agains a homeland for Jews?" I never said that. No one has any more or less of a 'right' to land than anyone else. All that matters is whether a group can keep control over it or not, and get everyone else to agree that its theirs. In a virtually lawless system, all this business about "rights" is subjective garbage. "Who`s racist? Hamastanis want to wipe the Jews out of their country. Isn`t it racism?" Yes, of course it is. You completely miss my argument. The point is, while you surely have your own justifications for standing by Zionism (at any cost, it seems) that does not contradict the fact that the policies Zionism requires are, quite plainly, racist. Palestinians are racist too. Everyone is. Its just that a committment to the idea of Zionism forces Jews to ACT on that racism, and in turn forces Muslims to act on THEir racism.

Although we can't turn back the clock and do over what we did wrong, I hope that we can somehow find a future for both peoples.One day when the world is saner perhaps we will find a way.

Your point is very well taken.Back in 1973 when I made Aliah,most of the Israelis were still in the midst of building the state,fighting a war, burying the dead,and we felt as if we were part of something big and great for the Jewish people.The Palestinian issue was a non-issue.Israeli Arabs and Jews at that time(at least where I was in the Galilee)got along very well.Although I am proud of what we accomplished during that time,I do wish we would have gone in a different direction and given more thought to the occupation and what it would mean in the future.There was some discussion but not until years after the war did the Palestinian issue come to the forefront of Israeli conciousness.In hindsight we could have avoided so much pain for both peoples had we given more attention to the Arab people who were stuck between our wish to build a Jewish state,other Arab countries that were at war with us,and the west.

pace 306 Thank you for topping his miserable list which are so may more and relevant than his minute hateful ones.All Jewish.And there goes Lincoln adding Fox News.As it mattered at all.I sometinmed go to CNN,when I am not here with some of you nice people(not the toe rag ones for sure),and I never hear anything detrimentally said about Israel at all.Unless it is different from the CNN you get in the States then the one I get here in the U.K. Also,I am only on SKY and not Cable.Would that make any difference,I wonder.In any case I don't care.What is true cannot be denied.I am beginning to tire of the accusation when Mark said to Jane about Israel's image was fine only in the first part of the quarter of the century.How dare he!He attributes this to the occupation.What I'd like to know is who is occupying whom that is the question. It has been proven time and again that "THERE ARE NO SUCH PEOPLE CALLED ARAB PALESTINIANS.THE REAL pALESTINIANS ARE THE JEWS PERIOD!

organize your thoughts a little better.

so what you are saying here is that you hate muslims and you really don't like me and you think that maybe i am a muslim but i just havn't come to terms with it yet.... mmmm I have read the article you suggested. I agree that ther has been a rise in anti-semitic attacks the evidence is there to see, but these are carried out by a very small minority of people. the idea that 1 in 5 of us are anti-semitic is much harder for me to swallow. I guess it hinges on what you define as anti-semitic. I know for a fact that I have no hatred for jewish people but if i dont agree with israeli policy in the OT does that make me anti-semitic........?

"The question? Can Israel bring herself to negotiate on the basis of equality and international law and something other than complete disdain for Muslims and Arabs?" Ibrahim, I feel until Israel becomes an equal opportunity player we have a moral responsibility to withhold aid and boycott it. As the first article in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights notes: "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood." Thank you, Dutch

happy to see that you finally got the hang of spelling your fake name. Although I lived in Poland I can trace my family tree to germany and previously Spain but you are probably pure Polish so you can say your ancestors were barbarians and in fact were Barbarians until 1945- but that another history lesson for you and .......... I however stand by my statement that the Jews were advanced at atime when most of Europeans were still barbarians. SO THERE......

Ilan "whats the truth?" Pappe. Edward "debunked" Said.

Rearange header to suit. Why me Holinsworthless? I normally prefer to ignore you, but as you persist. So when you're not pontificating on holocaust denial and boasting about your KKK days you decided to take up history. Only you never quite had the marbles for that apparently. "Israel is not like other nations, is it? You have merely been hoisted on your own erroneously conceived petard".......for nudniks sake! I just finished watching the history of China on TV. Qin Shi Huangdi.A ruler from the western state of Qin united and subjugated the Warring States and formed China in 221 B.C. Now get this. Every nation is like no other. Every nation is unique. Is China not unique? Its history. Its language. Its culture. Israel is like no other nation. Its true and even an idiot like you knows it is so. So I'm hoisted on my petard??? Listen holly. It really is simple. Israel exists. Israel is strong. Israel will continue to exist as long as it is able and willing to defend itself. Israel can defend itself through stealth and through knowledge and sheer persistance. Thats how Israel defied the odds in 1948. and how the Jews made it through 2000 years of exile. Israel gains its strength from people such as you. Jews understand that they are safer, stronger with Israel than without Israel, when those of your ilk will prey unfettered on Jews. Does that strength upset you? I sincerely hope so.

"My people had an advanced civilitarion when the British and French were running around as savages as duly noted by the Romans." I don't know who my ancestors in Poland were, I don't even have a picture of my grandfather, all the documents disappeared, that enrire civilization disappeared. How do you know who your ancestors really were, past the third generation? Even back to the 17th century, letalone the 2nd century. Some, no doubt, had Jewish DNA but a good portion of your ancestry, if you are an Ashkenazi as I am, is Polish, Russian, Gothic, Sarmatian and Ossetian even Turco=Mongol Khazars and those as you so well said: "were running around as savages as duly noted by the Romans." By the way: Ashkenazi means Scythian, a descendant of Gomer.

actually I really don't know what the deal is with B'TSELEM if you could tell me why quoting there website is such a problem i would be interested... and no i dont speak french 1545 is a bit before my time

Well,johnie boy If you are drunk you will not be able to read this now will you?Perhaps tomorrow when your're sobereh? I was going to remind you to go the other article Titled " The British Antemitism in Britain" and how bad it is getting and the important message is this:Second to France Britain is now concidered to be having grave problems with their muslims.You seem too pleased with yourself,I suggest when you find the time,go and read the article. I will tell you something else,not all Middle Easterners are black,some are quite white.Therefore your being white doesn't prove a thing okay?Drunk,oh well,that too doesn't mean a thing.Muslims are hypocritical,they do drink,they do fornicate,they do go and visit whores,they do not let their wify anything but the men go out and indulge in all kind of dreadful things.The wife does not have any of this rights--except the ones that have been murdered--you know,"The Honor Killings"that happened last year,and this year too!

"Forging Israel in great adversity in the first half of the twentieth century was a magnificent accomplishment. The survival of Israel in it`s first quarter century was another great accomplishment." Mark Lincoln I don't think you will get very much agreement on this observation from Palestinians, since these "magnificent"and "great" accomplishments were achieved at their expense.

Yes, Barry was the guy. I am not very old here either. If I remember, I came in July, when the argument of the Vatican and Israel over condemnation of terrorist attacks. I have just heard on the radio that Hamas will declare a 10-year-truce. The people on the radio critizised that we will fund the terrorist for them to attack again after some time. I came back here and read, in the flash news, that Hamas has asked to be removed from the list of terrorist organizations.

We must be sure that we are beyond reproach in our relations with all other countries that maintain relations with Israel. We also must make every effort to be fair in our dealings with those countries and people who are either sitting on the fence or are in cold peace with Israel. We must not bend, not negotiate with, and not recognize terrorists or the states that support them. They must be defeated. We must be strong in our obligation to protect Israel and the Jewish people and remain open to new negotiations for peace with all who are interested. We must not fall victim to another game of "land for peace" because as we have learned, that formula does not work. Lastly, we must not allow negative public opinion in any place outside of Israel to demoralize us as a people. Solidarity and continuity of purpose will take us back to the high ground where we belong.

Amazing ! Your assessment of Israel's problems is right almost all along the article and then, when the conclusion would have been obvious to any sound minded teen ager, you escape and take refuge in this boring cliche of "improving Israel's image". Come on ! Israel does not have a problem of hasbara, il has a problem of policy. Change it, yes get up and run out of the territories, now, right now, without endless and cheap bargaining, and there will be no need to improve any image, as it was the case, remember, during the peace process, when Israel was the darling of the West...

so nobody believes I am white and non muslim.... I am loving this..........! well I am white, I am non muslim, Iv'e just come back from a night out and am a bit drunk [that wouldn't make me a good muslim would it] and am about to hang out with 2 good friends of mine one of whom is jewish. believe what you want 's'... you really do make me laugh

Hello Kim Nice to talk again.Usually I don't like to bother you as I see how busy you are. Do you mean about Barry? Being new here he was getting a bit desperate even by writing to Ha'aretz.Can you imagine,poor chap.He was very frustrated with the numbers etc.He thought I was very au-fait and an old pro'.Well,I said I was relatively new,that I couldn't remember how long I'd been here etc.But I did refer him to you saying Kim is the one who has been here a long time.There you have it,and yesterday I read his posts to you etc,etc.Now,is that the post you mean? I hope they put this one out. Wishing you the very best my dear. p/s now Ha'aretz perhaps you'll let Kim read this...

Jabadini Do not apologize to that insidious scumbag please dear chap.What I said in my post to you is absolutely correct.The majority of the british people are really sick to death--shouldn't say the last word,but it is a matter of fact.And yes,much crime is perpetrated by muslim youths and as I told that toe rag johnie thing are getting worse by the day and the government have been getting more strict about it.Since 7/7 the bombing in London there has been many more allerts,more arrests and they are being very diligent. I cannot believe that johnie is what he says he is.He said he comes from a french ancestry,well,I'll believe it when I see it.Sorry if I sound angry,it is because I am. Thank You for Listening

YOU refute it - theres 500+ years of history to back it up. ZIONism is the return of Jews to ZION - Israel. Secondly - since Jews and arabs are both semites - it cant be RACISM ... were you out that day in school?

that the Jews have the right to their homeland. Why do you support a homeland for "Pals", who never had it, and you are agains a homeland for Jews? Who's racist? Hamastanis want to wipe the Jews out of their country. Isn't it racism?

1) ANY terrorist group PLO, PFLP, HAMAS 2) ALL arab countries that want Isreal gone - Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE, Lebanon ect 3) All left wing socialst groups (they never lie) 4) Fringe terror groups - IRA, Black September, Liberation Group Of Corsica, ETA, AL quida 5) Left wing "reporters" Aka Amira Hass ect 6) Foriegn interlopers (whos web sites say they support terror) Ala Rachel Cory LMFAO never believe any Israeli, US, Right wing, Republican ect RIGHT SULLY ? Its pure 100% propaganda that the arabs have 23 countries! History books lie about the Moslem invation aka the Ottoman empire, and of course all Jews lie about the torah, thier history, and thier people - RIGHT SULLY ?

Jane, there is no question in my mind that the effects of Occupation has been very corrosive both for Israeli society, the IDF and for the image of Israel in the world. It is almost impossible to be an occupier without appearing the bully. And most people in most places don't like bullies. I think that it is very healthy for Israel that the discussion is turning from 'what do we do about the Palestinians" to "how do we get out?" Forging Israel in great adversity in the first half of the twentieth century was a magnificent accomplishment. The survival of Israel in it's first quarter century was another great accomplishment. It has been the post-Yom Kippur War period in which Israel, having accomplished success, seems to have lost it's way. Nothing has contributed more to that than the occupation.

You forgot Fox News Yaakov.

ichebehr Well,I did,not speaking hebrew and because it sounded like hebrew word I went.I was so surprised after reading some of it that I came to realize that something wasn't quite as it should be,if you understand what I mean.That was a year ago, and never since.And here goes this johnnie pretending not to know,and that is after putting a web site as a footnote.Asking people arround to explain what it really is? He thinks we must be morons,and not suspect him of his duplicity.Oh well who can you trust eh? The son of B...H! Then comes this one hollingsworthless whose posts I never read (except hearing from the remarks people make about him)and he says all of us coming out of the woodwork with "My Coutry Right or Wrong" The B.....D! You betcha we will,and be proud of saying it. Thank You for Listening

Image problem??? Gone are the days of "a land without people". "There are no Palestinians", "Disputed territories", "Jordan is Palestine", and instead the days when Captain R is promoted for confirming the kill of Iman al-Hams, lying bleeding, pleading and most likely crying in pain from her wounds. No the truth isn't pretty and Israel will always have that image problem, that when the truth is revealed:Iman al-Hams was a 13 year-old schoolgirl and 'Captain R' was promoted to Major. Free Palestine!

Howdy Ibrahim; It reminded me of a cartoon which showed a middle-aged, American couple viewing Goya's "the Naked Maja" in a museum and the wife says to her husband, "I don't know much about art, but I know fat when I see it." Terrorism is easy to indentify because it entails the deliberate targeting of non-combatants and is a straight-forward physical phenomenon (like fat), but justice is abstract and differs from person to person (like art). It's nice to know that you can recognize justice when you see it, but what happens when others disagree with you as to what is just and what isn't?

... to tricia (128 re Kim)

Don't let the b***ards get you down! Your logic is correct. This is all about Islam and everyone who loves freedom had better wake up to their message. It is not a message of peace it is of subjugation. Everywhere Muslims have emigrated the purpose becomes taking over that country to become Islamic and institute Sharia law. The Muslims have boasted about taking over the UK by 2020 and Denmark by 2030. You can argue all you want but the facts are what they are, and what Israel does about justice for Palestinians is moot when every one of them wants the destruction of the State of Israel, and every single country in which they live.

...No matter the logic of its justification. Please see my earlier posts: "Poignant" parts I to IV ... i challenge you to prove me wrong.

Kim, You really do need to learn the real history - written by Israeli's if that makes you feel more secure.

you're caught in an unavoidable Catch 22. Israel feeds off of foreign, particularly US, dollars. Isaeli leaders must have some modicum of "foreign approval" or the whole foreign-funded state structure collapses. They've got to at least pretend that Israel is a legitimate entity in the family of nations..., although many of us know that Israel is really a leech and a parasite.

So Hollingsworth is claiming a moral pedestal? Trust a KKK supporter to back Khalid's multiple persona's. Born in sin indeed. You plan on handing back the US to the Indians and moving back to Europe Hollingsworth?

Saw your post. Many thanks for the advice-

Israel is not like other nations, is it? That's what we're all supposed to believe anyway. What other nation ever came back into a land its people occupied for the last time some two thousand years ago, and then reclaimed it based upon some ersatz Biblical idea, no matter how loosely interpreted, of a special kind of chosenness by which a special right of return is guaranteed? You have merely been hoisted on your own erroneously conceived petard.

Which of course makes his so-called "honest" routine an oxymoron.

since that is what they practice.

Ibrahim, it is great that you envision great future, and believe in cooperation. However, this is wishful thinking. Israel is out of the Gaza strip, right? How much peace and quiet are coming from there? Imagine Qassam rockets in range of the only international airport Israel has. If you think about this carefully, some "smart" palestinian terrorist will shoot such a rocket if he can. Israel's reaction of a necessity will be far beyond anything the palestinians have seen before (and, as usual, quite a few innocent people will be killed or damaged financially).

Kind of like "terrorism".

My god, johnie, don't you see what is going on in England today? Golders Green and hampstead garden suburb have been torched. Jews driven from their homes. Michael Howard, Tory PM candidate has been stripped of his Bristish nationality and all Jewish members of House of Commons have been removed, banished in disgrace from Lords. All Jewish students at Cambridge/Oxford have been forced from all colleges. British Jews marrying foreign Jews, if they bring them into the country are not allowed to confer citizenship upon them, since their influence on British life is seen as being disproportionate to the general population. How can you not agree that anti-semitism in GB is nearing that of Nazi Germany??

Hey Mehmet How wrong can you be.It seems to me your assumtion is all skewed.Israel is strong and just! Oh Absolutely the case. I would like to see justice in Turkey towards terrorists and their safety to the extent Israel shows concidering that it is surounded by enemies on all sides.The fact that their hands are tied behind their backs in view of the cynical way the terrorists carry out their attacks--like the cowards they are,among children,hide behind their women and thus the IDF is restricted to quite a degree because they have to avoid civilian casualties to a bare minimum.I would dearly like to see if any turkish soldier under the same circumstances act in the same way eh? Not a chance in hell! You'd do the job irrespective of the consequences.So,don't give this crap here please.Also,I would remind you that Israel is strong what is more thank God--VERY STRONG! So,put that in your nargile and smoke it!Hubbly bubbly okay...

How can you justify what the Guardian says. They are reflective of the old British upper class anti-Semitism that has existed for time immemorial. You along with other liberal journalists have created a double standard. Jews cannot fight or they will be accused of South African Apartheid. Did the Guardian criticize Britain's extra-judicial dealings with the IRA in the 60's-the 90's?Why is it important only for Jews to be just and to give a pass to other truly viscious regimes?

The first two points i agree with you i did not mean to imply the Muslims are the youth and gun criminals. I was just trying to show that a country which allows much violence can not expect to not suffer the consequences, as with the muslims in Europe who are becoming more radical daily eventually they will turn as many of their leaders project. The muslim protests called for more 9/11's in Europe which includes England. They also had signs implying whoever didn't sercome to islam will suffer the consequences. While leaders of mosques are calling for jihad, and the muslim youth are being kept in getto's of their own, full of muslims and are not being intergrated into the society but rather the taken out then radicalism will rise and eventually it will effect your life as an englishmen.

you didn't know! You put the web site at the bottom of one of your posts.What do you think we are here,morons?How dare you assume this. And now you pretend that you didn't know and begin to ask people to explain it.What other mischief will you dream about I ask myself? By the way,according to your response to me through Jabadini which was not requested by me,you say your ancestors came from France in the 15th century.Tell me,do you speak french? I would dearly like to know.Surely you must have some recollection of the language.Come,speak to me in french and we can take from there.How about that monsieur? YOU BLOODY LIER...........

Thanks for the response. "What you seem to forget is the fact that Israel`s withdrawal from the West Bank, and the conclusion of a peace treaty between Israel and the emerging Palestinian State, will indeed lead to tactical cooperation between them..." Ideally, yes. My point is that Israel is so unprepared to accept the reality of having to share the resources of the West Bank (and Golan) and forgo military control over the Jordan Valley, that, until they have prepared themselves for what that reality would look like, Israel cannot afford to just 'withdraw'. I agree, a bilateral treaty with mutual compromises, including large scale withdrawal from conquered territory, is the most ideal solution. It just seems increasingly unlikely. "Can Israel bring herself to negotiate on the basis of equality and international law and something other than complete disdain for Muslims and Arabs?" No country abides by 'international law' if it doesnt have to. Thats the problem with the system.

The Jewish 'my-country-right-or-wrongers' are coming out of the woodwork on this blog.

We don't dance to the tune of your fiddle. The Jewish people aren't interested in commiting mass suicide. Nor do we apologize for our survival.

For Jake, any source is suspect if not outright discredited, if not: 1. deseminated from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 2. IDF 3.AIPAC 3.Department of Land of Israel Studies 4. DEBKA 5.Daniel Pipes 6. Arutz Sheva These are a sample of acceptable sources for jake.

Or any other channel and the truth is there for all to see and hear.You must be a muslim and any excuse you will offer doesn't impress any of us who know the truth.Why then have the police and security services have decided to abolish the hoods eh? is it for the fun of it? Of course not,also as I repeated to Jabadini the muslim's crime rate is terribly disturbing.They are there and on the increase with each passing day.You lot are an insidious people,you can run BUT CANNOT HIDE! WE will find you and get you no matter where you are.You say once the hoods are removed they turn out to be white boys,give me a break! You always blame other people for your disgusting behaviour.But times are a changing the English people have had it,they are fed up to the back teeth and quite a few are thinking of leaving the country.Too many bloody muslims! We have had enough of them,you hear it all over the place.Especially with this blasted so-called politically correct business is enough for anyone.

Kim - Brian has the Sullivan disease - please pardon him. Like Sullivan, he feels Israel has no rights, no hopes, no dreams excpet for what he and his left wing socialist buddies deem ok. Ignoring the fact that the arabs have 25 countries spanning North Africa to Turkey - its not enough and its Israels fault. They hope that Israel will cut and run like the Christians did. Thy dont realize that the Jews are stronger then that. After years of persecution, they know how to handle themselves and wont be pushed around. If you lie enough people believe, and the lie about the Pals (read any Hass article) is something Brian believes. Dont blame him - hes got the Sullivan disease - Israel has not history, no rights, no future.... what a shame - I hope theres a cure.

(ans. to #86 B'Tzelem) Go on the B'Tselem website and count the number of times it noticed the injustices and atrocities of the Arabs and compare that with the number of times they blame and accuse Israel. Its hypocrisy is further evident in that it is a secular (anti Jewish??) organization but it's name is plucked from the Torah. It is a pig that claims to be kosher, and advocates against the sheep.

Because Judging from your post to Chana plus your footnote about "Betselem" I know where you are coming from.I sent you a post,it is still not out.Firstly,where in London are you from--methinks much depends on that! Also quoting betselem is quite a telling point as far as I am concerned.Please,we are not deluded people here and can see what your insidousness is.If you are a johnie then I am a man FROM MARS! Just go and spew your diatribe and venom elsewhere,we will not listen to your drivel here. Just Bugger Off

sorry to disappoint dear boy... i'm very white, I have no religious belief whatsoever, I was born in this counrty but your right according to my Aunt my ancestors are immigrants they moved here from france in 1545. if you really do live in this city as your profile suggests then you should know as well as i do that the vast majority of drug and gun crime that happens here has nothing to do with the muslim community.. all you are doing is 'preaching hate' based on no FACTUAL evidence, not much different to an 'islamic extremist' really....

Absolutely right about the clash of civilizations. They want it: attacks in the US, Israel, Europe. The statements by the nazi president of Iran, and now the cartoons matter. --- I saw your post yesterday morning, replied to you, but I believed it wasn't published.

Israel doesn't need to apologizise. It is being attacked by terrorists. What does Israel have to apologize for?

The Arabs don't want to return to Israel. They went away in 1948 on their own accord. Don't they say they want a state for themselves? They have Jordan and also Gaza, not to mention the Arab states where they came from.

What kind of legitmacy do you except for a state whose only goal is to be well perceived by the american public opinion and by some extreme lobbyist in Washington DC. The future of Israel will be decided in Gaza, Nablus, Cairo, Damas, Ryad, Teheran and Baghdad and nowhere else. The strong don't remain strong ever. The day the american people understand what's really going on in Kalkylia-Varsovie or in Hebron it will be a very different story...

I look forward to a third article that shows the discriminatiion against Israeli Arabs,the Arab citizens of Israel,especially the plight of the Bedouin.The Israeli government's attitudes are the same to these people,as to the Palestinians,and are just getting worse.Wake up Israel.Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable.Apologise, go back to your pre '67 borders and allow the right of return.Otherwise my fear is that Israel will become a failed state not deserving to exist.

Jabdini I think you are wasting your breath with that jonnie.He is,I'm almost sure one of three ethnic groups.Whether as an immigrant or even if born in the U.K no matter.His background is either of bangladesh,pakistan,arab,and simply a muslim all one and the same.You were quite right in pointing out the great crime rate,not only in the metropolis,but also in the rest of large cities of the country.They are into drugs,prostitution,gun running,burglary all of it.And the hypocrites,still go to the madrassas mosques,and like the evil people that they are commit pervertions.There are already I believe about two million of their lot,and if the british government doesn't act with harsh measures they will be in greater trouble than in France!

The biggest criticism of Betselem's work is its casualty reports. It figures into the number of PAlestinian civilian casualties a number of confirmed combatants shot in sel-defense. It classifies casualties according to 'military' vs. 'civilian' instead of 'combattant' vs 'non-conmbatant". In the Palestinian arena, Betselem has no major complaints about the Palestinian use of terror against Israelis, but rather the passing out of death sentences of the Palestinian Authority against Palestinians. It's interesting to note that a primary donor of Bestelem is the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

Howdy Joel; Good point. The question "What is justice?" is just as profound as Pontius Pilate's question of "What is truth?" I don't think that truth or justice can be defined. Everybody has their own versions of the meanings of these two words. Truth and justice are relative concepts. Ultimately, only God knows for sure, but He has been conspicuously silent on the matter for quite some time.

Israel is an unjust society.It is a racist nation.The world no longer shares Israel's perception of reality.The British and the Americans no longer rule the world,thankfully.The cold war is over.While Israel may be a convenient land base for the West in a global war,no one sees that as being worth the fuss.I believe the world is sick of the way Israel behaves and the justifications it puts forward.Everytime a jew accuses anyone who disagrees with them of being an anti-semite,they lose another friend.Never to return to their side.Wake up.Move back to the pre '67 borders and apologise. Allow the right of return.Israel has lost any legitimacy as a religious state.Only Arab love and foregiveness can save you now.And stop non Israeli jews meddling in your affairs.

Classical Israel-bashing by a radical anti-zionist paper. Of course, it makes perfect sense! All Israel has to do in order to get on the good side of liberal, Israel-hating, Jew-loathing Europeans is to be "just". Maybe that's all Jews had to be in order to be liked by the Nazis. It's a shame those poor bastards didn't have Aluf Benn to advise them how to be liked by their anti-semites.

in an editorial they compared the jenin battle where israel lost 22 soldiers to the terrorists to the destruction of the twin towers in new york on 9/11.they never apologised.

I'm not so sure I accept that muslims in the UK are loyal first to other muslims. they do of course have a very stong connection to other muslims, but then most jewish people who live here have the very same very powerful connection to the jews in israel and, i dont see the problem. the war on iraq changed everything here, up until that point the danger from islamic extremeism from within the UK was simply not a serious issue, now it is.

Do you want to sacrifice the jewish state after that long time wandering and last of 100 millions jewish life around all the world because of jealously and hated the jews.No long ago in ww2 whole the world with blind eyes tried to eliminated the jews from the earth.every body should remember the story of the ship with thousands jews tried to ran away from the naziy germany and thre were no country to accept them as refugee and fainaly they went back to germany and been killed.There were no't in hitory like a british apartheid.And the problem israel has today with arabs all because of british polacy.Why should we care what british saing about israel.Israel figthing for her existence To be OR not TO be.And the nations of islams doesn't want to accept our existence.They want to wipe off the israel from the map.Do you think the world cares that much.No they cares about their interest.56 muslims nations and oil.It is all about business.They are ready to sacrifice israel for them benefit.

ok you say B'tselem is like the Communist Party they have a lot arabs within the organisation and are therefore i presume in your opinion are not a trustworthy source of information. but can you prove it... do you actually have solid reliable information to back this up, or is it just what you believe....

Again and again we have to emphasize the same point which seems to fall on mostly deaf ears. The only justification that the world will ever accept for Israel's existence is that G-d Almighty gave it to the Jewish people as attested to in the Bible. Furthermore, this connection between Israel and the Jewish people has been expressed through thousands of years of history and self sacrifice. Even Moslems respect the Bible and they at least claim to respect Judaism. The Lubavitcher Rebbe said it over and over again that we need to emphasize the Biblical and Divine connection between the Jews and Israel. Rather than being afraid of the 'Religious implications' we should recognize that this is the one thing that could truly be accepted and truly bring peace. All of the tricks are failing. We must face up to what Israel and Zionism is really all about.

It is very disappointing although not surprising that The Guardian and BBC with their "objectivity" towards Israel are the highest authorities for Aluf Benn and Ha'aretz. Especially funny is his concern with respect to "important, influential parts of public opinion in the West" (important for whom?) as opposite to "rightist" groups (oops, here Benn's political affiliation gets so transparent...).

For one thing Betselem, like the Israeli Communist Party: only a part of the management are Jews. The rest are Arabs and, in the case of Betselem, Palestinians from the territories with an axe to grind

I am completelly agree with you regarding situation in Israel-Palestine. What you said is exactly what i and all other left wing Israelis are trying to prove. Having said that, Muslims in UK and other European countries feel loyal first of all to other Muslims and not to the countries where they live. And that is a huge problem. I believe that that is the first reason behind 7/7. Mind you the situation with Muslims in US is utterly different - there they feel first of all Americans and only then Muslims (or at least that is the impression i have). That's why i think US won't be attacked by it's own citizens like London was.

a bit off topic i know but.. if anyone can tell me on what FACTUAL i repeat FACTUAL basis The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories - www.btselem.org can be classified as an anti-israel group.......! as it was by Jabadini, i'm all ears....

Benn's concerns about Israel's image abroad are based on an assessment of a small, politically left group that includes journalists and main stream media. Benn ignores that the greater majority of people abroad have sympathy for Israel, starting from shared religious and cultural values, and reinforced by muslim terrorism and recent scenes of rioting from the muslim world over simple cartoons. Aluf, I can tell you what the average american's views of the Palestinians are, but Ha'aretz would not publish it. More people in the west are getting their information and opinions from the blogosphere, not newspaper media,and studies show that the younger generations in the west, future Israel supporters or detractors, are more conservative in their views than past generations. What Israel's image really suffers from is those Israelis who slander their own country for foreign approval, and who handwring and agonize over their adversery's every need, and ignore their own peoples'safety.

story fot Aluf Benn: in the time of previous USSR, jewish parents had choice before sending children to antesimitic schools: prevent them or not. The second, when they receved insults "durty jews" and " bloody misers" responded by washing themselves ten times a day and spreading around all their money. The firts, who werer prevented, just answered and knew how to fight because they is no real answer to antisemitism, under which form it comes. Same: the only one value which will be accepted by our arab cousins whose whole culture is based on religion consists in repeating the firt commentary of the greatest commentator on the, about, according to all culltures, the Grea

1. you say 1/20 people have guns and 1/10 are muslims but you forget to mention that the vast majority of all gun crime that happens in this country is not perpetrated by the muslims or asian comunity, FACT...! if you think i'm wrong i'd like to see the source of your statistics to disprove me. 2. the 'violent youth' are yes... if your brave enough to lift the hood off these little boys you will discover they are almost always white or black, are frequently drunk and are highly unlikely to be muslim. 3. tell me did you ever see "Muslims running throught the streets calling for the destruction of my country" did you really see that. I have lived in this city for 16 years I certainly never have.

Reply: Real Christians cannot preach in favour of a war with Islam because Jesus has forbidden his followers to go for war. They just have to live in peace and to preach the news of the coming kingdom of peace from Jesus Himself. Read Revelations about Babylon the Great (false religions) and the wild beast (political powers). Both will fall when Jesus starts Armageddon against them. Jews better can read the bible with the massage of Jesus to trust in than in prostitution religions with political powers.

"David Ben-Gurion said that Israel's fate is dependent on two things: its strength and justness. His heirs believed strength was enough."- A. Benn "All your children shall be taught by the LORD, and great shall be the peace of your children. In justness you shall be established; you shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; and from terror, for it shall not come near you. If anyone stirs up strife, it is not from me; whoever stirs up strife with you shall fall because of you." (Isaiah 54:13-15)

Howdy zmogus; The clash of civilizations is already a reality and has been going for some time now. The clash really started in the mid-20th Century when Western influences started to creep into the pristine Islamic world. This caused the rise of Islamic fundamentalism which naturally saw ideas like democracy, equal rights for women, the separation of church and state, religious tolerance, etc. as being diametrically opposed to the teachings of Islam and, therefore, as a serious threat. It would have been one thing if the Islamic world had been content to counter ideas with ideas, but the more radical Muslims turned to violence. Exremist Mullahs have declared Jihad against the infidel, issue Fatwahs calling for the deaths of people who oppose them, and their sermons are full of hate speech every friday. Furthermore, they have armies of terrorist fanatics who would like nothing better than to martyr themselves provided that they can take a few infidels with them. The clash is here

the fact is that our rather shady colonial past and out experience in northern ireland have taught us that if you punish the majority innocent people for the extreme actions of a few then all you do is create more militancy and more terrorists and make the possibility of dialogue and peace much harder. If someone kills a child in israel and you take the attitude that that makes it OK to kill other children in the OT, then you are not exacting justice you are simply taking revenge and in the process you sink to the same moral and ethical level as those you claim you are defending yourself from.

Enough of this bleeding hearts drivel. The Arabs and 'Pals' have been always part of the drive to annihilate Israel and had a hand in the 'Final Solution of the Jewish problem'. The Palestinian Grand Mufti had considerable influence with the Nazis on the issue of Jewish emigration. In 1943, He convinced the pro-Axis Hungarian government not to allow the Jews to leave for Palestine. Instead, he urged the Hungarians to transfer the Jews to countries "...where they would find themselves under active control, for example, in Poland, in order to protect oneself from their menace and avoid consequent damage." There were a few instances where Nazi officials were willing to offer, in exchange for massively unrealistic bribes (like 10,000 trucks for the Eastern Front) safe passage for Jews to neutral countries like Spain and Portugal, but specifically NOT Palestine.

Is Israel smart enough to create conditions that will improve its situation immediatly and over the long term in the face of continued hostility?That is the question.Once some here get over their myopia over Ariel the rest becomes very clear,can be accomplished within one year, would acrue to israel immediate benefits, and give it the political propoganda diplomatic military edge over Hamas, and give the anti semite trash creatures less to feed off.Israel is being its own worst enemy.

You can build up your own 'truth' about Israel, but we know the facts. Israel has as much legitimacy as any other country, and wishing it into oblivion just isn't going to work. Many people in history have tried to wish the Jewish people into oblivion. Now they channel that hatred into vitreolic condemnation of Israel. But it's the same disease, and the Jewish people and Israel will survive them all.

I do not call groups only involved in IDF wrongdoings human right's, maybe palestinian right. And the numbers are just straight up lies. Many of these so called civilians were terrorists holding weapons and attacking Israels. You read what they say i see it first hand. Two examples are with the child being killed at the begining of the intifada in his fathers arms. Firstly the army showed proof the shots were fired from the palestinians side. Second their is video footage of the father holding a gun minutes before shooting at the Soldiers. A picture was shown in an american newspaper of a guy in his twenties. his face was bleeding and he was surrounded by IDF soldiers. The world was told that he was an arab when in fact the truth was that arabs had surrounded him and tried to kill him and the soldiers had saved his life. Maybe you should read the truth instead of opening your mind to the lies of these anti-israel groups.

"Israel was born in sin and continues to live in sins. Israel murders, steals, and lies...thinking that the world doesn`t notice. But it does." I trust the writer is a Jew. Better that he say, and very succinctly at that, what those "David Duke" gentiles like myself have been contending lo these many years. Thank you, sir.

I lived in england for many years and what is happening now is a joke. 1/20 people in london have a gun and 1/10 is muslim. Guns are illegal in England so how is this stat possible. Muslims are allowed to run throught the street calling for the destruction of your country. You have teens running around attacking people daily. There are even some malls were you are not allowed to wear a hood because the people are becoming intimidated by the violent youth. Muslims in England are racist and against any other belief in the world, maybe they should become more openminded. But no, even though they come from abroad, don't intergrate into society and call for everyone to be as they are, go along with it and become one of them, join them in their jihad against you and then see if you are right. These are the reasons i left your country. England is taking this discrimination too far if someone wants you dead you stop them you don't apease their wishes thinking they will leave you alone.

Why shoud Israel and Jews be held to standards that no other nation under the same circumstances would not dare uphold, Mr Benn seem to ignore the realities on the ground in Israel and the so called Palestinian territories, also the permanent agresion on Israel from Palestinians and Muslins all over the world, not to forget the usual Jew haters in the extreme right and now the so called liberal intelligentsia, If a Jew like yourself, question the right of Israel to exist, and be able to protect it"s population, you are openly helping and abeting our enemies. Nobody, but nobody has the moral standard to question Israel and the Jewish people in it"s long strugle for survival and I dare you to find a more worthy society under the very extreme conditions that Israel has had to endure since the first day of it"s independence. We , as Jews, have the right to question the world community, in it"s tolerance for cries to wipe Israel and Jews of the face of the earth.

How legitimate can Israels argument(s) be if they dont stick to them? If Jerusalem is the capitol, what does it say about Israel if they dont demand that countries have thier embassies there? What does it say about Israel when they claim the land is thier history and thier religion, then turn around and give it to the enemy? How strong can Israel be if they kick 10,000 of thier own law abiding citizens out of Gaza - and get nothing in return (except kassams)? Livni shouldnt worry about the UN - they have always been wrong on EVERY topic - especially when it comes to Israel (they didnt do so well in Darfur ect). The British have thier own ax to grind - let them compare it to SA all they want - most of the comparisons are false anyway. If you want respect - it comes from strength not from weakness !

This debate is meaningless unless a definition of "justice" is provided. In the context of this article it appears to mean that all foreigners should have the right to enter any country, enjoy the benefits provided by that country's laws on an equal basis with its current citizens, displace them in the work force and universities, and reduce their standard of living by redistributing wealth. If that is the meaning of "justice", then no country is "just".

When you say that 7/7 happened because of Iraq it sounds like if that is the reason, then it's OK. In UK there are also non Muslim who oppose the war, but somehow they don't blow themselves up together with their fellow citizens.

are you posting about the beilin nonsense in geneva?if so please do not call it the geneva convention or we would think you are discussing war crimes.

The arabs attacked jews in Israel long before the state was around there were massacres throughout the country on jews. Why does anyone believe after numerous wars and for most surrounding countries and all the terrorists groups in the neighbouhood calling for our destruction, things will change. The terrorists attack europe and claim it as their own land, is europe willing to give itself up for peace. We pulled out of lebanon according to a UN resolution and they continue to attack us. The more we pull out the closer they get to our major cities and the stronger they also become. We need to show strength and prove that it is not worth it to the Palestinians to carry on the violence, stop listening to the world who hates Israel and be willing to stand up as we used to 30 years ago.

And Israel continues to rely only on its military force and strength, if it continues to act unilaterally and define final borders without consulting the Palestinians, as laws are passed that are defended as democratic when blatantly racist in the eyes of the international community, as more land is confiscated making a contiguous palestinian state impossible, then Israel will herself be laying the groundwork for a binational state. The present situation is unsustainable and is increasingly being viewed as such by the international community.

Aluf Benn forgets two important facts and helps the Guardian with its rabid anti-Israel campaign.First, The Arabs citizens in Israel are the only Arabs in the world who live in a democratic state and democratically elect their own representative. This despite the fact that they support enemy views of destroying the state. Suffice it to listen to Tibi et al. Secondly, If Aluf Benn partially supports the apartheid notion, he does not understand the difference betweeen oppressing a population on the basis of race and the process of defending our own existence. The annihilation of Israel has been an Arab goal since 1948 and has not been reciprocated by us to annihilate the Palestinians. With all the shortcomings in our attitudes that stem from this situation, we are better than any other state in the world, particularly those who preach to us and go to war in Iraq with the associated abuse to Iraqis and many war crimes. Thus Benn should shed his Galut stance and wake up to the real world

Quotes: 1. "When you see a group of large bullies attacking one small person, do you scream "RACIST!" at the small person for refusing to be killed by these thugs?" 2. "Israel is stronger and more just than any of her enemies." Chana, Your metaphor together with your following sentence illustrate the "David and Goliath" figures that indiscriminately pro-Israel advocates often borrow respectively depending on the situation. But I must confess, I never saw the two used in the same posting... Perhaps you wanted to say "He who is strong, he is just"?

Is this fact has something to do with Geneva convention i talked about?

if that is what you think then you have obviously spent very little or no time living in the UK. despite what our foolish pm might say everyone here knows the reason why the tube was bombed was iraq. the muslim community in this country is more integrated into are own culture and society than you will ever be able to understand. the very simple reason for this, is that in our country the vast majority believe discrimination by race and colour is just wrong and we have laws, a judicial system and police that back this up. In the OT if shoot a civilian you have about about a 5% chance of it ever being investigated and a 0.5% chance of being convicted. and no I'dont think this makes us 'superior' just much less ignorant....! http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iopt0605/ http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20050627.asp

Reply: Why do the British not compare the Islamic apartheid states with the multi cultural nature of the Jewish? Indeed nowadays, resolution 181 from 1947 would not pass the UN. However, this does not mean that the state Israel loses its right to exist with retrospective effect. That is what the British and other liberal Europeans try to suggest. It is not to believe how quickly governments chancing attitudes under the influence of bombing threats. It almost reminds to the appeasement politics from Chamberlain 1938 by selling out parts of Czechoslovakia to Hitler. Now the European liberals should prefer a Jewish minority in óne Arab Palestine, but that is just because the Arabs claim so. In the far past the Arabs refused this plan from the League of Nations under British mandate. The meaning they have now is just a hidden form of ethnic cleansing from a Jewish identity on ?holy Arab? soil. Israel is ?not just? losing its grip on public opinion in the West because Israel is not 'justness', Israel is losing its grip because Israel has partners who handle not ?in justice? but just for own safety and interests. Israel should easy tension as much as possible but Israel should not trust hypocrites, nor Arab nor European

Haaretz ! You and most of your journalists "make me sick" You talk about justice! When Hamas (now the P.A.) murders hundreds of Jewish men woman and childreni in cold blood,injures and maims thousands more,how could anyone call for anything short of anything but their total destruction.Haaretz (and the Govt.) are setting conditions for negotiating with Hamas,which include disarming,renouncing terror and recognising Israel. This is void of any morality and justice. Suddenly mass murderers are able to absolve themselves by simply saying,"sorry,we won't do it again" THIS IS JUSTICE AND OUR MORAL LEADERSHIP. As for our image with the Goyim. Rather be alive and hated, than loved and dead. To be a truly just Israel must follow only one moral code in a time of war.Your enemy is evil. Destroy him first,before he destroys you

Is this fact has something to do with Geneva convention i talked about?

Yesterday it was VERITAS,today "honest" is the buzzword.Tommorrow it will be Truth. And so on and so forth. Just give yourself a name that reflects your sentiments.How about trite? Israel was born in sin. So was nearly every nation on the planet.Forged by conquest and deceptions. Now what you state may be an "honest" observation or not. Either way its a platitude which tells me nothing more than you are finding it tough to ID with Israel. O.K "I know it is hard for me to utter these words." So, it's hard for you say its tough to ID with Israel. And you know it???? Israel murders? Yep, but what nation doesn't when its got assailants on all sides hellbent on murdering its own citizens. It steals? Well, you should see my point already. Platitudes, banalities, boring boring generalisations. All the nations steal tell lies and commit murder in the name of national security. So all the nations lack legitimacy in your eyes? Or only Israel?? Que??? I need a coffee

Jordan, The point in which I disagree is your statement that a withdrawal from the West Bank is fraught with existential dangers... Incorrect. What you seem to forget is the fact that Israel's withdrawal from the West Bank, and the conclusion of a peace treaty between Israel and the emerging Palestinian State, will indeed lead to tactical cooperation between them, likely leading to friendly relations a few more years down the road. I envision a great deal of cooperation between the two nations. Israel will be more secure with the conclusion of a peace deal. The question? Can Israel bring herself to negotiate on the basis of equality and international law and something other than complete disdain for Muslims and Arabs?

"The only difference is that the Iranian president proposes to the Europeans that they take back the Jews, and the European liberals prefer a Jewish minority in an Arab Palestine (as "a state for all its citizens"). If l were the Europeans l would gladly take back the Jews, l love them, moreover in captivity they behave upright and work hard and also use their knowledge and God to bless other people as Daniel did. Even Iranian president and hamas would change the tone if they hear that after all the Jews have gotten aanother home land it is a brothers thing. Come on Israel we are almost there our real home the new Jerusalem.

Israel's justness or lack thereof is something different from what the world perceives it to be. As long as Israel's enemies are as strong as they are, her image shall always be systematically tarnished. Israel's citizens, and the Jewish People abroad, should feel proud of Israel's achievements, its history and for what she stands for. Her being essentially what she is meant to be will give her its strength, not its Public Relations.

is the knowledgeable shelly aware that 50000(fifty thousand) palestinians from the territories have become israeli citizens since the year 2000?

Israel provides better health- services, greater educational opportunities, better opportunities for women for its Arab citizens than do any of the Arab states. One of the rewards for the freedom of expression that Israeli society gives is Bashara in Syria, and a-Sanaa inciting, and Ahmed Tibi speaking in the name of Arafat. Unfortunately the Arabs in Israel have been badly misserved by their leaders. My suspicion is with Hamas ruling the Palestinians outside the Green Lane, those within may realize the good deal they have in Israel and not want to lose it. But I could be wrong. And Hamas may takeover in the Galilee and Negev meaning very big problems for all concerned.

Israel's situation is improving in the West. The 'Hamas' election, the rioting in France, the 'cartoon affair' all have helped open many people's eyes. Polls show Israel's position in the U.S. is stronger than ever. At these anti- Israel academic conferences its the same old creeps . No new people are joining them. Aluf Benn should read a few newspapers.

Aluf Benn should be ashamed of himself. Go to Hadassah hospital and see what an ' apartheid state' Israel is.

John,what do you know about jewish people and their history?You shoud examine how your own country came about. You are not to teach us what to do. Let another million muslems to come to your shores. Enjoy them and see yoor country build a fence soon.

"while not a fan of chirstian right, aren`t they correct in the clash of civilizations concept?" The Christian right and conservative politologists are increasingly correct in stating the fact of the clash of civilisations. I guess they are very wrong about posing the phenomenon as a "concept" and drawing the image of the history in essentialist terms while ignoring the dialectics in shaping the oppositions. Therefore "clash of civilisations" adherents procede peculiarly quickly to the prescriptive mode justifying and even advocating the deepening of the oppositions. The operative guideline "either we them or they us" stems not so much from the conservative view of the history as from the pragmatic and somewhat narcissist stance to preserve, period, one's own cultural and political self. And t The "clash" is self-fullfiling prophecy and therefore reality does not really prove the theory. By adopting this theory (and strategy)any kind of Bush can bring the "clash" into reality.

Since 73,Israel has wrestled with the cost-benefit of the occupation.When I made aliyah during the Yom Kippur War,the debate began on the kibbutzim and other bastions of liberal thought.It went something like this-the cost of occupation that Israel will ultimately pay is the moral high ground that we Israelis enjoyed in the 67 and Yom Kippur victories.The world was awed by our stregnth and still compassionate towards the people who survived the Holocaust to build a strong and death defying state.The idea of turning a desert into lush farmland was novel and the settlers were pictured as halutzim in shorts and covae temble holding pitchforks.Our soldiers were the envy of all armies and we had the moral high-ground.Now we don't and just as the kibbutznikim and others predicted,the cost of the occupation far outweighs any benefits.We indeed must rethink where the Jewish State is going and how we can get there together.We are at our best when we work together as one Jewish people.

It is wrong to be just to please others. That never works. You have to be just for your own sake. When your cause is just, you are much stronger, you are not torn apart, like is the Israeli society now. Justness will unify the people of Israel, it will make them stronger, better, ... Who cares about pleasing others Like that event about the Dalai Lama, Israeli official refusing to meet him. Is that justness?!

Whatever Israel does is seen a wrong. AS far as large parts of the left are concerned, Israel can do nothing right. Israel is the pariah state and the scapegoat for everything that is wrong with the world. The left will have to find another country to blame. Well, there's the US, but we all know that US foreign policy is controlled by "the powerful Jewish lobby." (I am being sarcastic. There are posters who believe it.) I write this sadly because I am on the left myself. I would like to a settlement based approximately on the 1967 borders. Israel could withdraw to the 1948 borders and its image would not improve with many on the left. Also antimsemitism on the left goes back to before the state of Israel existed. I'm not saying that I agree with Olmert's latest plans. I do not. The EU will never understand why a fence may be necessary for now. There is nothing Israel can do about that. A unilateral withdraw will prevent Israel from turning into an apartheid state.

This self loathing Jews should be able to ask themselves. Was Israel created by the LEAGUE OF NATIONS or the UNITED NATIONS. How can any organization create a country for people that are more ancient than the countries supposedly creating it. My people had an advanced civilitarion when the British and French were running around as savages as duly noted by the Romans.

You'd have nothing to go on about, or bitch about. Let's face it, Israel is one of the most interesting and amazing countries in the world, and for all its tiny size it generates a lot of attention. Who gave a rat's ass about "palestinians" when Jews were being mass murdered in Europe. No one, and ya know why, because there were'nt any!!!, and know one even knew what a "palestinian" was. Think about that.

I believe that it is rather shallow of Europe in particular and the world in General to presume to be the moral authority on anything and especially ethnic cleansing. Europe was complicit in etnically cleansing Jews from Europe in a dastardly way. India and Pakistan ethnically cleansed Hindus and Muslims from their respective countries en masse. Rwanada burned while the Europeans watched as did Bosnia. The USA and NATO watched and helped Albanians ethnically cleanse Serbs from Kosovo and is still doing it. It would seem OIL is the Overriding factor at this juncture and Europe and the world will choke on in, in the long Run

I don't need to guess - I know. In Geneva convention one of the articles was that Israel recognises the right of Palestinians to return not in millions as you put it but in couple of hundreds. As an Israeli Jew I can live with that. I don't need to guess - i know. In Geneva convention one of the articles was that Israel recognises the right of Palestinians to return not in millions as you put it but in couple of hundreds. As an Israeli Jew i can live with that.

Typical antisemitic post with a twist. Where the anti semites usually say I have many jewish friends you don't even resort to that: you just love the Jewish people ( As long as they are dead) Cut the Crap and be really honest. You hate our guts and would like to see us out of the ME and out from anywhere in the world. We are lucky to have a strong IDF and a strong economy and that really gets your goat doesn;t it. THE DAYS ARE COMING.

"I like Jordan`s analysis of the problems facing Israel although I don`t agree fully with what he had to say" Thanks. Actually, i think you may have misunderstood me, and that we do agree. Lets have a look. "First of all Israel is not France, Italy, Greece or the UK who have all developed from tribal and regional societies into nation states. Israel is a collection of emigrants often with very little in common." Absolutely. "Israel was also created at the expense of another nation" Also true, but not unique. The English had to conquer the Welsh, Scottish, and Irish. Most of the New World was colonized at the expense, in some form or another, of its earlier inhabitants. "..Israels existence as a state is still largely considered a mistake..While others interpret it as nothing less than a sin and an aberration. To Israel`s disadvantage, its enemies are..determined to fight on despite many set backs..Israel can be described as both a success story and an out right failure." Agreed.

i am assuming, of course, that you are an Arab, which may be wrong. But whoever you are, there are at least a couple billion people who disagree with you about who you are. are you sure "the world" is really the best jury?

I like Jordan's analysis of the problems facing Israel although I don't agree fully with what he had to say. First of all Israel is not France, Italy, Greece or the UK who have all developed from tribal and regional societies into nation states. Israel is a collection of emigrants often with very little in common. Israel was also created at the expense of another nation; the Palestinian Arabs who continue to dispute its the legitimacy and are higly unlikely to accept its creation as a fait acompli. Almost 60 years on, Israel?s existence as a state is still largely considered a mistake to say the least. While others interpret it as nothing less than a sin and an aberration. To Israel's disadvantage, its enemies are many and determined to fight on despite many set backs. Israel can be described as both a success story and an out right failure. The merits of its existence will continue to be debated for as long as it survives.

If raising the palestinian longetivity to one surpassing by 7-8 years that of egyptians is a sign of being injust.. Even Gaza seems a paradise for egyptians,trying to hitch a marriage with a Gazan .

"The time has come to change priorities, and to give some importance to Israel being just. That doesn't mean getting up and running out of all the territories." - Ben Alufs Ben Alufs speaks out of both sides of his mouth. His rationalization that some of the occupied territory should remain Israeli, totally unacceptable to virtually the entire world community of nations, belies his call for a "just" Israel. First, call for the removal of all of the West Bank settlements, Ben Alufs, and then we'll take you seriously. Without this admission, your words do not ring true.

israel under sharon in fact regained the plot as it was never so succesful as and when it made the unilateral moves. the israeli public is for sure going to vote kadima and for certain their will be a series of further unilateral movements which will further remove us from the palestinians i am certain as these unilateral moves take place the world will be very happy that we are moving towards a palestinian state it is a great pity that sharon will not be there to see this happen nevertheless history will show that sharon was the matermind of this strategy BM

Chana, Please don't accuse the religion for the perpetrators of the crime. I think infact its you who needs to wake up and get your facts right about ISLAM not the PRINCESS about the world. It always the way, when you have nothing to support your argument lets accuse their religion. In that case Chana, I can generalise and accuse the american and British way of life and say 'well its the morals and code of conduct instilled in the soldiers and generals who have carried out those atrocities in the abu ghraib, It must be what they are taught at school'. Or even worse I could say Christianity teaches that. You see it sounds silly does it not. Get out of your high school debate society age and say something that can be qualified.

What a load of bull, The was of 1967 was no war of defense, no pre-emptive strike, but simply a war for land. Stop the hasbara (I believe that is zionist slang for fairy tales). Without the Dutch (and the Americans), Israel wouldn't have survived the war of 1973.

Thanks. Care to add anything or share some constructive criticism?

If you think all Dutch people should be considered responsible for what happened to Jews in the Netherlands in WWII, and for what happened to Muslems in Srbrenica, then you must also believe that all Jews are responsible for the death of Jesus Christ, all Israeli's are to blame for the murder of Palestinian children in the name of Greater Israel, etc. etc.? You think all US Citizens are to blame for nuking Japan, for torturing prisoners? Or do you just selective generalize like a bigot?

How can any journalist write about the Land of Israel and the people of Israel without mentioning God and the Torah? The opening paragraph of this article exposes a Justthe myth that Israel was created by the U. N. The one and only way Israel can become a just society, is to follow God's will via a Sanhedrin. Until then protection of Jewish lives and property is the primary duty of any government,and that certainly does not mean being just to our enemies. True justice means expelling all hostile arabs from Jewish Land (God given-not U.N.)

How can any journalist write about the Land of Israel and the people of Israel without mentioning God and the Torah? The opening paragraph of this article exposes a Justthe myth that Israel was created by the U. N. The one and only way Israel can become a just society, is to follow God's will via a Sanhedrin. Until then protection of Jewish lives and property is the primary duty of any government,and that certainly does not mean being just to our enemies. True justice means expelling all hostile arabs from Jewish Land (God given-not U.N.)

How can any journalist write about the Land of Israel and the people of Israel without mentioning God and the Torah? The opening paragraph of this article exposes a Justthe myth that Israel was created by the U. N. The one and only way Israel can become a just society, is to follow God's will via a Sanhedrin. Until then protection of Jewish lives and property is the primary duty of any government,and that certainly does not mean being just to our enemies. True justice means expelling all hostile arabs from Jewish Land (God given-not U.N.)

Just because of recent crimes against humanity wherever they are, you cannot justify yours, or have the mentatlity 'you did it, so i can do it'. And you always accuse the palestinians of being backwards and barbarians. Look closer to home mate, just like you cannot justify 'suicide bombings' as a means of freedom fighting, the world will NOT accept you to play the card 'don't look at what we are doing, look at what you did', every time the world reminds you of your atricities.

The Holocaust of WWII was propably the decisive factor that led to the creation of the State of Israel. Holocaust denial is indeed a refusal to face historical facts. For Jewish Israelis the Holocaust is of central importance, underlining the justness of the creation of Israel. Likewise for Palestinians anywhere in this world the Nakba of 1948 is of central importance. How can Israel be just, worthy of recognition, they argue, if it refuses to face the expulsions and dispossession of 1948. The denial is everywhere: in the school curricula, on maps, in the signs that mark places, on this forum. Israel's aspiring to justness will always be found wanting, unless it tackles the big taboos of 1948 and before. Honorable Israelis like the people in Zochrot, lead the way. Recognition of the Palestinian Nakba is the key to true reconciliation.

Guess again. The Arab world will only accept the existence of Israel if Israel allows the Arab "right of return" which would flood millions of Arabs into Israel to turn it into an Islamic state called "Palestine." Thus, they are only willing to accept the existence of Israel if Israel stops existing.

Coincidentally I read the articles in Guardian which compared Israel to South Africa, and even there was stated that although there are some similarities, still Israeli Arabs are much better off than black population in South Africa in time of apartheid. So to say that Israel is worse than apartheid is putting it mildly to twist the reality. Don't try to be more catholic than the Pope himself.

Looking at the vile things that people say about Israel on this talkback, Ha'aretz must have forgotten to mention that Israel has been attacked by the Arab world in a long list of wars (1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973) and an endless series of terror attacks. ALL the wars and many of the terror attacks occurred prior to the existence of settlements in Judea, Samaria or Gaza. When you see a group of large bullies attacking one small person, do you scream "RACIST!" at the small person for refusing to be killed by these thugs? Israel is stronger and more just than any of her enemies. Will you post this, Ha'aretz?

You're not going to let facts confuse you, don't you? The majority of Arab states already showed readiness to recognise Israel in it's 67 borders in Geneva convention.

Excellent article. Calls for the eradication of the Israeli state are a disgrace and unacceptable, even to Europeans, and that view has been reinforced by the EU's positioning vis a vie Iran and Hamas, led by the Germans under Merkel. This is not the issue. Israel under Sharon has completely lost the plot on the global PR front. At present it understandably chooses to pitch itself to the US audience - a frontier against militant islam, a partner in the war in terror - yet completely ignoring mainstream global sensibilities. The exclusive nature of the existing pitch encourages the growth of anti-semitism, as we have seen. Ben-Gurions words should not be forgotten - justness should be the tenant to Israel's image profile in the world. At the moment it is force.

Poignant - just want to compliment you. Good analysis.

Israel is way, way, way too just in the face of terrorists who deliberately target unarmed people as their form of war. Israel has a lot of strength she hasn't used yet. Europe is in trouble with citizens who have no intention of being European but who wait for the EU to become an Islamic Union. Europeans should solve their own problems before criticizing Israel for trying to solve hers.

If you think England and the rest of Europe is so superior to Israel, why did Islamists blow up subway systems in England and in Spain? Why are European buildings burning all over the Muslim world these days? Why did France have riots that went on and on and on (torching thousands of cars plus buildings, etc)? Why do Muslims in England say quite openly that they want the UK to turn into an Islamic state? Why don't you consider giving them Oxford for an Islamic State while France can give them Paristine as an Islamic state. You have no idea what's going on in the world. When you wake up to England and the rest of Europe struggling within to keep their freedom, then you'll know. It isn't Apartheid to want to be free rather than having to submit to Islamic rule, especially for Jews who are called the sons of pigs and monkeys by Islam. Take a look at how women are treated under Islamic law sometime and then ask yourself how anxious you would be to live under it.

On the wrong side of the Green Line Israel is only backed by force, not by law. On the right side of the Green Line, Israel is backed by force, a perception of democracy, and racist laws. Nothing anti-semite, or even anti-Israel about this. Just facts. Israel has to change its ways.

Notice how many posters here make this claim. What if they said "I love Italians, I just think their state should be destroyed". Such a person would be considered a nut. However, that is considered "acceptable" in polite Eurotrash circles (what Aluf Benn called "liberal European circles-the circles he vainly wishes to be considered a part of). This is nothing but a reworking of classic Judeophobia. Judeophobes ALL!

Aluf Benn falls in to the old trap that "if only Israel returns to the pre-67 (Auschwitz - according to Abba Even) lines, then everyone will love us. The Arabs don't recognize even the pre-67 lines, even if Israel withdrew, they would still say Israel is an Apartheid state, Israel is responsible for the supposed suffering of the 1948 refugees, etc. The Europeans and US would see a weak vulnerable Jewish state and it would only be perceived as a liability. Just like in 1967. De Gaulle and the Europeans were ready to throw Israel to the dogs, doesn't Aluf Benn remember that? This was BEFORE the "occupation" of Judea/Samaria/Gaza. Running away and destroying Jewish communities in Judea/Samaria will only strengthen those who hate Israel and will alienate our few friends. WAKE UP!

So you finally realise that you are not seen quite like you would like to be seen by the rest of the world........and then some.. Well it's not as if we haven't been trying to tell you this for a long time. Yes,if you wanna be liked, ya gotta be nice. At least be nicer. :)

...im sure more than a few bright Europeans are aware of this irony. But - once again - none of this changes reality. If Israel is committed to remaining a 'Jewmocracy' (just as France is committed to remaining , when push comes to shove, a Frakocracy, or Italy an Italocracy, etc)... no matter how legitimate that wish may be ... it will be forced to continue instiuting racism and engaging in unilateralism. The blatancy of that need could be tempered by a withdrawal from the West Bank, but the withdrawal itself would fraught with danger for which the state is not even remotely prepared (lack of water security is one example here). Unfortunately, the comparisons to apartheid, as well as Ahamdinejad's analysis (minus his deluded Holocaust denial) are pretty much dead-on. This doesnt mean Jews are more racist than Greeks, Americans, or the Japanese. But it does mean we stand out as an unpleasant reminder to the world of the inherent racism of the nation-state construct.

while it is nice to be loved by the enlightened european liberals, we should ask ourselves whether this love is worth our efforts. after all, these are the same liberals that directly and indirectly responsible for the most horrible crimes of the last century. in any event, we can count on one thing: if we are in trouble- they will do nothing to help us. and btw, while not a fan of chirstian right, aren't they correct in the clash of civilizations concept? did anyone prove otherwise?

your tone is very much like those Germans who vilified other Germans who reminded the German people of the genocide that was being meted out ..to Jews. ...it is the same..."they said then that their hearts were breaking for the Jews.." and now you are saying the same thing.."that the leftists' hearts are breaking for the Palestinians." Do you want a genocide for the Palestinians, would that make you comfortable?

Israel of course has the right to exist, those denying this are antisemites, this I agree. But in order to push its arguments on legitimacy Israel must get rid of its apartheid cover. Second, Israel is a strong country but not as much as it used to be. Its economy is deteriorating unreversably and unemployment is towering. It is still a wealthy county but on the edge. Militarily, well its hi-tech know-how is impressive but the proportion against countries like Iran is on decrease, give another 30 years the situation will be much worse. So I understand (but not support) why Israel wants to bomb Iran.

I know it is hard for me to utter these words. But truth is dearer than my love for the Jewish people. Israel was born in sin and continues to live in sins. Israel murders, steals, and lies...thinking that the world doesn't notice. But it does. I believe a state as such should have no legitimacy. Yes to the Jewish people, No, a big No, to what Israel is doing in their name.

...all this is especially true if Israel intends on holding on to any West Bank territory. Unfortunately, what the israeli left often ignores, is that genuine security concerns are a major reason why Israel has not yet ceded the West Bank. We're not only talking military security here (ie the Jordan Valley, plus the fact that the West Bank is a mountain range, while Israel-proper is flat), but also RESOUrce security. Check out a map of the aquifers in the territory between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, as well as a map of the upstream sources of the Kinerret, then overlay that with post-1967 annexed/settled territory, and you'll see what i mean. All this points to the fact that an inflexible Zionist ethos puts Israel in a bind that reveals the inherent racism underlying the nation state system. Israel's bad luck that it's the most obvious example. Ironically, Israel inhereted this problem by modeling itself after upitty fortress Europe.

This is not to say that Israelis or Jews are any more or less racist than anyone else. Not at all. The issue is that the ideology of Zionism - with its central tenet of creating a Jewish, (now) democratic NATION-state in eretz israel - logically leads to racist policies when faced with the geographic and demographic realities of the region. The reason everyone else feels comfortable criticising Israel for its resulting racism is not because no one else is as racist as we are. Thats a load of crap. Its because most other nation states simply do not find themselves in a situation in which their own ethnic balance and geographical integrity are directly threatened. They live in a state of ethnic and geographical luxury, where equilibrium has already been reached, usually long ago. This may help assauge some of our consciences, but it doesn't change the reality: Zionism must implement inherently racist policies in order to maintain its goals in the region... cont.

Elimination of Israel does not mean the murder of its inhabitants. How else could Jews support it? http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/2005Oct28Iran.cfm

No thanks to any good will by the neighbours or their apologists. Just? as can be expected in a rough neighbourhood. There is always room for improvement on BOTH sides.

Israel says that a Jewish state is a state that the majority of its population is Jewish. If this majority was created by ethnic cleansiny, the destruction of whole communities and other war crimes, does this make preserving the Jewish majority legitamate? If preserving the Jewish majority actually mean de facto apartheid, is the Jewish majority legitamate?

"Force is a necessary condition for the state's existence, but it is not a sufficient condition on its own." How true. The problem is a genuine one, and its interesting how it's so blatantly ignored by most within Israel. Just being there, in fact, tends to blind one to these tenous realities. Its as if the 'facts on the ground' of a thriving Tel Aviv with nice beaches and a good train system and lots of gourmet restaurants leads you to think 'all this arab crap is garbage, this is a nice coutnry..we just need to hold on as tight as we can'. In a way, that sentiment is still largely true. Israel's not going anywhere anytime soon (barring a catastrophic fallout from a conflict with Iran). The problem is that, in order to have our cake and eat it too, Jewish Israelis are going to have to continue instituting racist policies both inside and outside the Green Line. ...cont

casualities in war that took place almost 60 years ago.ben alofs the dutch are responsible for the 8000 moslems killed in srebrinicia rather more recently. if you wish to be reminded of the fact the dutch were instrumental in the deportations of the 1940s in holland then i hereby remind you.

"liberal circles in Europe ...would like to see it [Israel] eliminated"