How the PA failed

If the PA were serious about cracking down on terrorism and terrorists, they would have full Israeli cooperation and assistance. Does that answer your question?

Native Canadians and Americans have full citizenship rights, including the right to vote and the right to freedom of movement. Is it not time the Palestinians got to enjoy these basic rights as well? Most basic human right, Andy, is the right to live. Stop assuming that "Zionists" on "this forum" have "ulterior motives" other then to enjoy what you seem to take for granted -- peace. Why don't you also try to study the problem from the "Zionist" sources. But for that you would need to "search and ask" rather than to "critisize and assume." We do not go around from college campus to college campus trying to proselytize our views. And, no, trust me, while Ha'aretz has its place as a tool to prevent Israel from sinking into injustice (as many of our critics already did) -- trust me, you are not getting even 30% of "our side of the story," from this site. To start, if you are genuinely interested, go to the following website: www.arabsforisrael.com (or org, I don't remember) -- there you will hear what is never brought up, even in Haaretz/Jerusalem Post. As far as UN/Europeans are concerned, as well as prominent journalists, like Geraldo Rivera, or especially Peter Jennings (who made his name and money by securing his friendship with the PLO, (starting with his interview of Arafat, during Munich Olimpics Massacre, if not earlier) -- have you ever concidered that the same spam that went on in UN in regard to the Iraqi "Food for Oil" program, could also take place here? The only difference is that it might be even easier thing to do: half of the world loves to blame Israel, and the other, as you know, has a record of blaming "the Jews." Andy, it is very difficult to try to prove to someone that you do not put blood in your matza, as well as that you do not want to imprison Palestinians. Regarding the "basic human rights," such as the Freedom of Movement-- No problem. When they will learn to use those rights, rather than abuse them. Israeli Arabs by the way, vote. Thousands of Palestinian Arabs apply and get Israeli citisenship per year. We would much rather have them get a "Palestinian" citizenship. And, please, stop repeating "Occupation, occupation, occupation." Go and learn the history of the Six Day War, and the time on, from a "Zionist source," and then do your own checks. Go to the website I mentioned, and have them guide your research. Or look at my 2 previous posts. Thank you for your interest.

How much time have YOU spent with the Palestinians???

holocaust day means nothing to her, palestinian misery, well deserved palestinian misery interests her more. let them be a thousand fold more miserable. let amira lose her mind

Jeff - since you are such a strong supporter of israel, I guess you have no problem with their 1967 attack on the USS Liberty, the killing of 34 crew members and the wounding of many more.

russell you are spot on. they throw this amira once in a while into this murky pond.then the thrash floats, to post anti israeli garbage. i suppose bashing yourself, makes you popular amongst certain cretins.it certainly lacks self respect.when serving in zahal i was told to be proud as now we are masters of our own destiny someone should whisper that into amiras ear. cheers mate.......

By your logic, if a policeman shoots dead a killer, the policeman should rot in jail.

The problem is that Abbas is not for peace. He has praised the terrorists bomb, and besides Fatah and other terrorist gangs have formed joint cells. That's why he wants all the terrorists to be released.

Andy Murray-- I feel Israel is being inhumane preventing the Palestinians from using the Rafah Crossing and imprisoning 1.4 million Gazans. Shame on Israel! It is morally wrong to block anyone's way as it prevents them from growing and thriving as a people. People must have their freedom of movement in order to trade their goods to remain viable and gainfully employed. Shame on Israel for blocking the Palestinians' way and crossing at Rafah! Thank you for the URL to this piece--I will post it on various websites and send it along to friends around the world. People shouldd know how punitive and inhumane the Israelis can be toward the Palestinian people. Their practices must be condemned by all around the world. What a shitty country Israel has become...How can I support it anymore? It offends me now. Dutch

You said: "Whenever a Canadian or an American brings up the issue of the ongoing ethnic cleansing and oppression of Palestinians, right-wing Zionists bring up native Canadians and Americans. To this, I have one thing to say: Native Canadians and Americans have full citizenship rights, including the right to vote and the right to freedom of movement. Is it not time the Palestinians got to enjoy these basic rights as well?" If you really lived in Canada, then you would know the reality of the North American native indian or, at least, the Canadian one! How many of them are your neighbours? How many are business associates? What about teachers in your kids' school? Where do you really see them in Toronto? My point, to your closing statement, is that they hardly excercise their right to vote as whoever wins the election will not alter their way of life, for one. Secondly, their freedom of movement is limited to their community and surrounding area, by choice. To go back to that statement; for the Palestinians to enjoy these basic rights, they know what they have to do. The Israelis also know what they have to do to MAINTAIN those same rights!

I have a new one. Please don't be mad with Danite because he wrote to me. He gave his opinion and that's it. I have seen some posts by him to another people and I think he is a patriot.

Why did the "Pals" destroy them? I have read rerpairing them will be very expensive. The "Pals" are always asking others for things. Those greenhouses have been given to them by a group of good people who wanted to help the "Pals" start going.

Gina, You seem to forget it's the Iasraelis who are morally wrong and have no legal right under international law to dictate their masochistic will to the Palestinian people. It's high time they were booted out of Palestinian life. Their presence is morally offensive to our western values of freedom and liberty for all! Dutch P.S. Ben Gurion in 1933: "Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves...politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves ...The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and it their view we want to take away from them their country..."

With all the foreign aid the Palestinians receive, no nation has tackled the issue of accountability! The apparent result is corruption, pilfering and, to add insult to injury, ungratefulness. The citizens of those countries trusted their ellected officials with their decisions to send financial aid to the Palestinian people. In turn, you say thank you by admitting that there IS corruption and saying it is YOUR problem?! WOW!

Jeff-- How can you consider yourself a law abiding person or Israel a law abiding state when you show a continous disregard for international law and Human Rights? Our western societies are governed by the rule of law and thus we accept and respect the terms of the law. Hence your constant dismissmal of the law and apology for the crimes of the Israeli Army against civilians is very disturbing to me. In addition, you seem to forget it was the Israelis who didn't exist as such before 1947 and had no country not the Palestinians. Therefore, your granting of all Israeli rights over Palestinian rights is not in tune with this reality. Even Ben Gurion recognized the Palestinian peoples claims to the land in 1933: "Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves...politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves ...The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and and settle down, and it their view we want to take away from them their country..." I can't understand why you still deny this reality. It is not all right for Israelis to be Lording over Palestinian land. I will never accept their pseudo-rights and arrogance in such matters. In closing--Military Orders and Laws can never tramp international law either. This is just the bottom line that you need to accept too. Dutch

And fascists of the ilk of Andy always make the dubious claim that native Canadians and native Americans have full equal rights and opportunities in those countries. Please don't make me laugh Andy. Palestinian Arabs want their own state and their own right to self determination as to the Israeli people. This is about mutual recognition, reconciliation and acceptance of these rights - not about right wing/left wing. The Palestinian people could have all that if they had a leader who was prepared to put a stop to the hatred and the nonsense you keep spouting on about in this talkback.

As you know, I'm not a daily poster in the forum. Once in a while, though, some practical reality type of question hits me. Sometimes I wonder if any of the politicians involved from any of the involved parties ask these questions. Or is it all just rhetoric? Mark

Kim, Just a practical question. If you want him to do the job, how is it done? Mark

Dutch, if they don't want their homes and infrastructers destroyed, stop using civilians as covers. stop using homes as bomb factories, underground weapon smuggling tunnels, covers for terrorist, and more covers for terrorist. And palestian parents, stop coaxing your sons and daughters to go on suicide missions. If your incouraging them to do it, your an accompliance to murder, and therefore there are consequences for that crime. put your gun down, stop using your house as a base of operation. Stop hiding behind a little girls and firing on Israelis. Someone will get hurt. Do you think that little girl wanted to die? Is the terrorist fault because he use her as cover. That is against geneva convention. stop complaining and drop the gun.

Ibrahim, If Israel is sooooo racist, why do they have people from all walks of life living in the Land of Israel? If Israel is so racist, why are there mosques and churches scattered throughout the land of Israel? If Israel is so racist, why is it that there are one Jewish state surrounded by colonial Islamic fundamentalist countries? You see, Eygpt used to be 50% Christians, Labanon used to be 50% Christians, and so called Palestine use to have a florishing Christian population. Where are they now? They all ran away, because of the racism by the arabs. Why is it that these arab countries could have Islam as a state religion, but Israel can't have their religion? You see the double stadard here or are you still blind by your hatred that you can seem to seperate reality from fanasty. You called Israel, state sponsored terrorism, but what would you do if your neighboring countries are sending intruders and killing your children in your city. That's an act of war and your government have the right to protect their citizens. That is the rules of war. Your condemnation is unjustified, because you do not think logically. Your posting here are based on nothing but hatred and racism for the Jews.

I thought you said it was the "occupation. Do Native Ameicans and Canadians have the right to vote you colonists off their land?

Give me a break! I have been in the Indian reservations up in James Bay and also to Gaza and quite frankly the living conditions and quality of life are not dissimilar. You do not see Native Leaders vowing for the destruction of Canada. Again I ask you how would you react if downtown Toronto was always under Terror threat? It is very simple Andy, if the Palestians ended terror, there would be peace. It is simple as that and ask any Israeli whether in the right or left.

Oh Amira ,Amira, when are you going to write something worth reading...lol..? I entertain my friends with the nonsense you write all the time and they always chuckle well in the end...and not becuse they think it is some masterpiece for sure what you put out...Best if you keep this up as then NOBODY takes you seriously ever...I bet Abbas loves you...hehehehe

BUT most of your material comes from www.davidduke.com anyone reading that web page can put 2+2 together...it doesn`t take Jewish sechel for this... Talk about Evil Zionists? Guess you forget your on a Zionist newspapers` website Andy...look at their ads....DUH!!!!

Andy whatever your other name is,and it is most likely not too flattering if I told you what I really think of your contributions here which lately I decided did not any more merit reading. Then I see your arguements about indians in USA and Canada,naturally called natives or better with another idiotic name in Canada of FIRST NATIONS. True they have citizenship as they LIVE IN CANADA OR THE USA( as opposed ot this the palis have no state) but what may be EXCAPING YOU is the FACT THAT THE ARMY WAS SENT TO DEAL WITH THEM TOO when they decided they were more that they are and tried to rebell and foment violence. That happened in Canada and in the USA as well. As to the natives in both countries....hehehehe.. there are a lot of similarities for sure, and one of them is that they are excellent smugglers JUST LIKE THE PALIS THERE...hehehehehe.... So, in some ways they can sure be compared well, but naturally not your ways of using them as excuses for pali murderes killing jews as an avocation or lifestyle...you sling a lot of empty words to justify murders really...

Hello friend.Israel is a democracy and this paper is part of it.However I know what you mean about self hating and self blaming.It is especially painful to hear people quoting HAARETZ and using it to accuse Israel for all sorts of things.What makes it really bad is that there is no paper in the Arab world that will allow us to say the things we like to say about ARAB cruelty.

it is only matter of time.two state israel and jordan,the wall is temporary.the left will get it late.rakhsh=rustam horse.nice to meet you

Congratualations Amira! You are one of the few who says it straight the way it is.

Whenever a Canadian or an American brings up the issue of the ongoing ethnic cleansing and oppression of Palestinians, right-wing Zionists bring up native Canadians and Americans. To this, I have one thing to say: Native Canadians and Americans have full citizenship rights, including the right to vote and the right to freedom of movement. Is it not time the Palestinians got to enjoy these basic rights as well?

Danite, In answer to your questions, I totally agree that reform of the PA is very important. In fact, many Palestinians, including the Palestinian intellectual Edward Said (whom I greatly admire), had serious problems with Arafat regarding both Oslo and corruption. When the Europeans and the UN raise the issue of reforms, I believe that they sincerely want to help the Palestinians. However, I want to point out that, unlike the EU and the UN, most posters on this forum raise the issue of corruption as a way to attack the Palestinians, confuse the issues and allow Israel to continue with the occupation and the theft of Palestinian land and resources. Palestinian corruption is a Palestinian problem (in the same way Israeli corruption is an Israeli problem). Israelis, and especially those supporting the occupation, clearly have ulterior motives when they talk about it.

KJJ, So failing to defend the indefensible (Israel's occupation, apartheid, ethnic cleansing and war crimes) by providing counter arguments to mine, you keep on trying to shove Pat Buchanan and David Duke down my throat. You repeat this "association", using selective quotes, as if repeating a lie makes it true. Does this tactic remind you of someone? a certain minister of propaganda in a particularly unsavory regime! As for quotes, I have one that I think applies well to you: "Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history so soon?" - Desmond Tutu http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1957644.stm

Haaretz is a terrible excuse for journalism. It is an outlet for self-hating spineless pitiable people who love to heap blame on their country and collect accolades for their "honesty" which is self evident to foreigners due to their statements which are "against their interest" and thus seen as true. It is a distortion of the common law principle of evidence which finds a warped use here. The entire paper is like a train wreck. It is so abhorrent, gory and violent against a state which is more decent than any other I know that as much as you try not to bear witness to the ugliness, you are almost forced to - as it is human nature to "rubber-neck" and see the horrible head on collision that has snarled traffic or the train wreck.

A number of posters seem to have misunderstood (or intentionally distorted) my posts regarding Gaza. My posts about the continued occupation of Gaza (as a result of controlling its borders with the outside world) has nothing to do with the Gaza/Israel crossings, but rather with the Rafah crossing, Gaza's only link to the outside world (Egypt). It is a fact that Israel continues to prevent the Palestinians from using the Rafah crossing. Thus in effect imprisoning 1.4 million Palestinians in Gaza. Israel's proposal for "allowing" the Palestinians to use the Rafah crossing includes preventing them from even exporting goods to Egypt (which would be vital to reviving their economy) unless these goods go through Israel first- This allowing Israel to collect export fees from the impoverished people of Gaza and continue to control their economic future and exploit their captive market. As James Wolfensohn, the Quartet's special envoy for the disengagement, said in a letter to the UN on October 16 Israel is "loath to relinquish control, almost acting as though there has been no withdrawal" www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/637397.html

Howdy Ibrahim; What's this with the "colonial-settler state" model? Please don't tell me that you are a political scientist. My opinion of them is even worse than it is for terrorists. The stages should go: 1) The Palestinian terrorist attack dogs get chained up and Israel freezes settlement expansion in those settlements which lie on the Palestinian side of the security fence, but bolsters and fortifies those which lie on the Israeli side of it. 2) Negotiations are entered into which must address the following points: Where is the border?, What about mutual recognition?, What about the refugees (both Palestinian and Jewish)?, What is the status of East Jeruselum?, What is the status of Israeli settlements that lie on the Palestinian side of the security fence?, What about water rights? What about potential disagreements?, and a host of other issues that need to be worked out before a State of Palestine can become a reality. 3) Everybody lives happily ever after on their own side of the security fence with no communication or commerce whatsoever between the two for at least a century.

Thankyou Sara, you are a breath of fresh air and sanity. How unlike KJJ/Fiona and some others. Please contribute more often Sara.

Did the Palestinians ever have their own government? It seems they always lived under other rulers or mandates. They have absolutely no knowledge or experience on how to rule. The UN needs to educate these people. It's ridiculous to think that having them vote for the PA, Hamas, or anyone is going to teach them how to have self-rule. This whole concept baffles me by asking people ignorant about government vote for people who never governed. It's almost a farce. What's wrong with the UN and USA that they can't see this? The so-called leaders of the world must be absolute morons.

Sorry to disappoint you but the Taba parameters are totally unacceptable and will just cause the continuation of the conflict. You cannot split Jerusalem. The Islamic supremecist ideology also should not be allowed to triumph since it will then just continue its 1400 year old Jihad. A peacefull resolution requires a balance of risks. If Palestinians for example decide to restrict Jewish access to the holy sites in the West Bank, murder the Jewish residents etc. they would then risk loosing access and control of the Temple Mt and any Palestinian resident aliens in Jerusalem could be subjected to restrictions. The Arabs have shown little regard for agreements signed with non-Muslims. The Israeli experience has also been that the world at large will not side with Israel when Palestinians reneg on their commitments and will demonize Israel if she responds with military means to Palestinian violence. The 10% land swap also should not occur. There should be a price for the war that the Palestinians started.

Its very easy to say that Israel should just get out of the West Bank. Its just kind of silly, showing intellectual laziness and a lack of understanding of the complex issues at hand. Prior to the independence of Israel, there were small Jewish enclaves in these areas, that were driven out during the 1948-1949 war of independence. So one might want to ask who is occupying the land. Right now, lots of people are intertwined and living sometimes very close to each other without seeing one and other. Some peole from Ontario and other far away places flippantly say that people should get out of place A or place B. Is that realistic? If Gaza is an open air prison, maybe everyone there should just move? It's not healthy right? People would be better off without the heat and the raw sewage. Such solutions are ridiculous. It was long said that if Israel got out of Gaza everything in Gaza would improve. Freedom would reign and Israel would stop getting shelled. The reality is that the IDF is out and little has changed. This is a complex situation that defies easy solutions. The PA is corrupt, stealing taxpayer dollars from all over the world. They don't take care of their people in spite of having the money. The sad fact is that because of the corruption in the PA people there get angry and decide to kill Israeli's. Innocent people get killed in the retaliation. Does this mean Israel should go in and put out all the corrupt PA officials? That would be nice, but as the USA sees in Iraq its not really an effective option. Certainly Israel should make it possible for a 29 year old nursing mother to accompany her child to the hospital. But is that going to solve anything? Is it going to make things better? I don't think so. Anyone that says, so and so should do this and everything would be better is missing the point and showing arrogance of the highest degree. This is reality, real life here and people end up being homeless when they get thrown out of their homes. Every day I ride a van to work and can see neighborhoods full of homes and people both Arab and Jew. I don't have a solution. I can state clearly with conviction two things: 1) The solution is not simple. 2) What we've done up to now has not worked. Shmuel

To DOV: you asked what's her problem? I can't see any problem with this article. She's right, as usual. Amira Hass Awarded World Press Freedom Prize 2003. Few journalists are shown such an honor, showing outstanding professional commitment and independence, as well as personal courage, over the past decade. If peace is to be established between Israelis and Palestinians it will be thanks to people like Amira Hass who are able to look at the facts and understand them. Amira, is working under pressure to deliver the truth. ~Sara~

"Of course I assume you agree that Israeli murderers of innocent Palestinians should also rot in prison for the rest of their lives." As one who supports the death penalty, my preference would be that everyone who commits cold-blooded murder should be executed. Obviously, however, there are sometimes special circumstances that must be looked at. And obviously, this also doesn't apply to Israelis fighting Palestinian terrorists. I support Israel's targeted assassinations. As soon as the Palestinians active repudiate terrorism and actively lock up their terrorists, then I won't support Israel's targeted assassinations.

"First you mentioned: "Palestinians are MUCH MORE AWARE AND MUCH MORE CYNICAL of the corrupt nature of their leadership THAN THE JEWS OF ISRAEL are of their own government!". Hm, where is your Amira Haas, and where is the Palestinian Be'Tzelem? You will claim "but thats the point: they all agree that Israel is at fault." And I tell you -- this is also a sign of a free, democratic society. Nobody threatens Amira Haas. In fact, we read and concider what she, and those like her, say. Most disagree with her perspective -- try to find out why (just in the same way as I regularly try to appreciate the difficulty of being a Palestinian Arab).

Despising Palestinian terrorist - embracing values isn't racist. I support decent people and decent societies wherever they demonstrate decent values. And yes, until the Palestinians arrest and imprison their terrorists, I support Israel doing so. Once again, it's too bad you are unable to make your point without resorting to personal attacks.

Unfortunately, Ibrahim, frequently I see Arabs propetuating the misinformation that they themselves pay dearly for. The more your militants believe "you have the right to oppose the Jewish state militarily, because it is 'so bad to us, Arabs'" -- the more they do it. Do some research. How many Israelis would like the Palestinians to live normal lives? I do not know one Jew who wishes for you to live the way you guys do. But what whould *you* do, if you were in our place? Forget for a a few moments that you are an Arab. If this was between Iraqi's and Jordanians, what would you say? If ambulances maybe carrying bombs, Ibrahim, can they be treated as ambulances? What would happen if the soldiers would loose their guard and allow people of a certain age group despite the orders, which are based on intelligence data? A terrorist can change his/her look a little bit, dress like a woman, as a peasant trying to sell olive oil, he (or she!) may take his little cousin along (especially if this child is sick, this would be great for conspiracy, and a sure way to let him in Heave), can't he? Has it not been done? You might be to moral to do that, but a guy who blows up a pizzeria, certainly would not mind it. Do your own research. I suggest what you can do to help yourselves -- fight terror, or at least turn your terrorists in. I might say "provide us better intelligence information," but this will "feel like an insult to you." But this *would* be a good, responsible thing to do. And it could give your people bread and dignity that you claim to be "a priority" to peace. Instead of claiming that "we do to you 100s times worse than you do to us," why don't you suggest a way how we can allow you free passage without endangering ourselves? Do your own research on that too. Concider just a few facts: Palestinian terror on the Israelis existed before the Six Day War. (Do your own research). Just before the six day war Nasser called for exactly the same thing Iran just did, by the way, while calling Israel "the aggressor." Same thing so many of you do now. Despite all your loop holes of "who attacked first in 1967" it is clear that Israel was trying to avoid the war, several Arab states tried to start it. Why would Egypt demand the UN forces to leave Gaza just before it? Do your own research. Mosad officers (!) were trying to decide on what to do with the areas they might gain controll off, DURING the last days of the Six day war (May 12th? -- you check), and within a week (May 19-20th?). Among the suggestions were "creating of independent Palestinian state," or "creating an Autonomy," or "giving back the land to the Arab states in exchange for peace treaties." Check it. So where is the chicken and where is the egg? (the egg, I think, is that you keep on repeating: "Israelis are bad, they can't be trusted," instead of making sure you can develop your country without destroying ours. Masha

Dear Rustam: This time you are making some sensible statements about a reasonable solution to the conflict. A modification is needed to make this acceptable to both parties as indicated in the Taba protocols envisioned by our brilliant president Clinton. East Jerusalem should be part of the new palestinian state. It is given that therre will be no solution without having east jerusalem as part of theh new Palestine. Another point in Taba is swapping those 10% of the west bank taking by Israel with land in Israel proper. I agree with the other points you stated. This wouold be a win win situation for both people. If only politicians can see this, they would save their people and the world from this perpetual quagmire that even America is now directly involved in. It is clear to me reading the posting here that the Palestinians, Azzam, Ibrahim, are longing for liberty and peace. I must add they are impressively eloquent. They have never made any insulting remarks.

Andy let's not be hypocrtical... What have YOU done about native rights in Canada and collective abuse that they have endured by our government. You might say that Native Canadian and Palestinian issues are different...Well you would be right... Just imagine if we were bombarded with suicide bombers by fanatical elements of the First Nation on Younge and Bloor on a regular basis..I am sure your prospective would be different. In the meantime let's focus on cleaning up the mess of our governement and history rather than picking on Israel!!! Go Leafs GO Allan

I just want to point our what you said to Ibrahim that makes me see red and that after I posted what I consider to be a consillatory post. "I wish Israel would have the brains to do the other way around via a settlement freeze" "You don`t want to say it in public lest you be branded a zionist stooge" That to a well known Arab Apologist and on a site that real names are not used. How do you square this with defending Israel I look at this as appeasement. Settlements are not an issue at this stage Terror is. If he cannot see and say what is the truth and what is right than he is useless as an interlocutor and is in fact my enemy. Pleading with him is Appeasement. He must be told in no uncertain terms the rules of the game. I am not the only one on this site that has pointed this out to you. I am just more blunt.

sent a post to you late yesterday and I am not sure that you have read it.I have explained at length that I have no problem with anybody`s thinking on a Two state solution. I also said that ultimately that or any other solution will have to come from the Israeli electorate and even though I do not agree with a two state solution and my opposition and reasons are well known I will abide by the electorates decision if democratically carried out without any monkey business as was done in Gaza.I will even defend that decision. Until that time I will defend Israel and the Jews living there including the settlers, the political parties and religious as brothers. I will defend Israel worts and all.Israel is the only Jewish country that we have and the only safeguard and safe haven. My job is not to crap all over Israel and give comfort to the enemy and yes I have noticed that you defend Israel much more than previously and I have made not a single comment on that and I hope that I had some influence in that no matter how small. I just want to say that we are in it together and if we weaken Israel we weaken ourselves as the Arabs and AntiSemites could not care less.The stronger Israel is the stronger we can be in the Diaspora.

Danite, What exactly would you have me do to forstall the third intifada? When I am in the West Bank, I am not subject to Palestinian militancy. I complain just like everybody else, but I don't come across people who want to "destroy the zionist entity". The Iranians can babble all they want about it, but Palestinians are fully aware that a deal has to be struck with the Jewish State. One that allows both parties some saving face and dignity. I do some good work here in the U.S. and that's about the long and short of what I am ready to do. I don't see you marching in peace demos in Israel, now do I? Azzam's post was tainted with bitterness and sarcasm. I don't read his posts often...to be honest I only read a select few...and more fall off my list every day. I think you agree Azzam's post is no way in the same league as Gabe is called me ibn kelb. He is obviously a hateful racist...no better than nazi puke. What I find confusing is your apparant proposition that the Palestinians, through their bitterness and sarcasm and bad behavior, are responsible for their continued plight? I suppose you think the plight of Black America is their own fault as well? Nothing to do with 300 years of slavery and racism? But let me say, I do indeed appreciate your acceptance of the two state solution and your understanding of the need to support Abbas at this stage with a meaningful political process. He's not perfect...but he's who was elected. He has rescinded his PhD thesis as poison of the times... There is frustrating inertia in the PA right now. It is like the poor guy in Canada or the U.S. who got himself into a heapload of credit card debt, little income and not much hope of getting out of his hand-to-mouth rut....It's tough to break out of it, so he avoids dealing with it...Yes, there's some of that going on right now...We are the supreme underdogs at the moment....But we'll make slow progress and hopefully much faster progress once enough Pressure is Heaped on Israel to make them move beyond the language of violence and fear... Have yerself a good evening... Sighning out from my side of paradise. Ibrahim

YOu will ask some people that you know in the occupied territories? Did you mean people in Ontario? People in Quebec? People living on your block? - All these, after all, are territories seized from Native Americans and STILL occupied by the likes of YOU.

How are ya. have not spoken nor seen you here for a while. I have missed your posts immensely. Whatever happened to my favourite (other than you)Ronit. I really enjoyed her posts. I wrote to Danite under the Rabin Board #33 and #40 and I thought that she has reformed but I guess not. Please give me an opinion on these two posts that I sent #33 and #40. But Your post #233 was Excellent and definately to the point. Thanx Gabe

You may be right about the coming intifada Danite but what does Israel do to help Abbas from preventing it. Give free passage to Hamas and IJ into the streets of Tel Aviv? Abbas has to show us something. Right now, all I can see is that he's allowing Hamas and Al Aksa operatives drive around in PA registered cars on their way to their next assignments. Perhaps Sharon could provide the chauffeurs?

On the Rabin page I send you some example of what I consider to be your blatant appeasement and Marc Hamill on another occasion two days ago pointed out the same thing as have many others. You seem to be scared shi..less of an Intifada. I am not, provided that your ilk does not prevent the IDF from causing maximum damage and actually letting the IDF win. But this was not a 2nd Intifada, it was terorism pure and simple. This was PA organized and financed by both Arafat(may he rot in hell) and your buddy Abbas who is to this day facilitating this terror. So read and internalize what I am saying and don't go off half cocked with what you perceive that I said. All I said is that you don't negotiate with an enemy unless he follows the ground rules.Settlements and abandonment are not yet on the agenda. TERROR IS. negotiate that before you sell anything else. And it you don't understand that then you are either immature or not too bright. Take your choice.

what silliness to think that ABBAS is any better than HAMAS.If you will ask me ,at least HAMAS is honest about its goal to destroy Israel while ABBAS lies through his stony face and pretends to want peace with Israel.ABBAS is an ARAFAT with a shower and a list of demands but otherwise they are one and the same.One speech in English ,another in Arabic.On top of everything else he is weak ,truly pathetic.His people have no respect for him. No Danite,Peace will not come through ABBAS.Peace will come when the PA ARABS will start loving their children more than they hate the Jews.

Murderers should never be released. Of course I assume you agree that Israeli murderers of innocent Palestinians should also rot in prison for the rest of their lives.

why! Because accidentally we have Palestine and Israel as topic, not Iraq, but I am convinced that Yaacov would be able to give to that topic plenty of very good comments and arguments. Don`t escape when things seem to hot for you

Have you spent as much time in Darfur as in the occupied territories? Have you written to the Arab media expressing your concerns? How many Swedes and ISM types spend time in Chechnya? Or is it possible that only Palestinians are fashionable in some circles.

"You kid yourself Gina. IF the palestinians had recieved a trillion dollars from the US since 1948, there would be no Israel" The United States has always been a generous nation. If the Arabs had accepted the Jewish nation back in 48, "Palestine" would have had the opportunity to be an American ally just as Egypt became an ally and a recipient of our aid back when it signed the peace treaty with Israel. The US is not anti-Arab. Is it anti-terrorism. "It is a parasite thriving off the success of the USA" The entire world, including the US has benefited astronomically from Israeli technology, whether you are referring to areas of agriculture, medicine, defense, etc etc. It's too bad you are residing in the US and yet are blind to the benefits of one of the US's best allies.

I have no problem with a few militants being released here and there, as a demonstration of peace and goodwill. However, the Palestinians have never made any peaceful overtures in kind. And of course, murderers should never be released.

To Amira Haas: This is one of the best articles I have ever read about the PA. Definitely, the Palestinians were better off without it and were able to develop their local institutions including universities. The first intifada was the best that the Palestinians have ever done to make their cause universal and legitimate as people longing for their freedom and using only nonviolent means. It was a clean cut situation, Israel the occupier trying to break the will of the palestinians and on thed other hand the palestinians using the most creative method of resisting peacefully and creating their underground educational systems (as Israel shut down all the schools). It was an impressive display of human ingenuity by people facing an existenntial question of their identity and future. Now come the PA after Oslo and what did we get, the second intifada with its militarism ans worse of all during the Oslo years, the PA started acting as an uncle Tom of Israel and almost destroyed all the independent institutions that the Palestinians built during teh first intifada. The US , Europe and Israel do not want to see the failing PA to crumble as it should of their own self interest. If I were a Palestinian I would defintely fight the PA first before fighting Israel. Way to go Amira, I wish you can write like this in the Washington Post. Americans need to be informed by enlightened people like you.

I would suggest that you try to remember the subject being addressed and the article which we are all attempting to respond to. I am not out to impress anyone, and why would you think that? I responded to Abdullah because he is my former house mate. What is your problem?

etc etc...You saying this does not correspond with what Hamas etc are saying publically...They want Tel Aviv too... Should we assume YOU know better than they what they want, and what they pronounce publically is not reaaly what they mean?? Sheer white ISM arrogance...are you to LEAD them ``unsophisticates`` in THEIR battle? Its different from saving whales or penguins from oil spills....

Quote: The study, carried out by the NGO Transparency International (TI), headquartered in Berlin, analyzes levels of corruption according to the extent to which public office is used for personal gain. Reply: Well if that isn't too narrow and biased! The question aught to be a collecive one - as opposed to corrupt individuals doing corrupt things - how about corrupt governments doing corrupt things - or failing to react when seeing abuses of peoples - that is corruption. UIt sounds to me like they should redo to study - call this one 'the petty corruptions' and do another on the real corruptions. If truth were told - every nation on earth presently has corrupt systems [in various capacities] - with some very petty people in those systems! ??...politicians, as soon as they see that they cannot manage things, in the country there is confusion, they declare some war so that the whole attention may be turned that side, and there will be no agitation of the internal dissatisfaction. This is diplomacy. This is diplomacy. We have seen it in Pakistan. As soon as they cannot rule over, they cannot, but they (indistinct), ?Oh, the Hindus are our enemy. Kashmir, he has taken.? Attention is diverted and they declare war, and again become defeated. So this kind of war is not required. This kind of war is not required [Srimad Bhagavatam, 1.15.25-26, lecture, 1973] Please vist my discussion string: http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat/cat/hinduism/99763/0/collapsed/5/o/all

Mark, What a breath of fresh air you bring. The answer is NO, they don't have 30,000 trained troops...maybe on paper. In the time I spent there, I found them dejected, demoralized, impotent, and sometimes angry. In the absence of a serious political process leading to, once and for all, an end to the occupation....the PA has zero authority to do much of anything.

Gina, you seem so childish and one dimensional...clearly a anti Palestinian biggot....these aren't personal attacks, just simple observations. You go on supporting Israeli state terrorism and colonial occupation with all its associated corruptness, and I will go on supporting a peaceful way out of this madness....

Howdy Dutch; It's easy for a Human Rights Watcher to make claims of war crimes sitting behind a nice cozy desk in an air-conditioned office somewhere. The actual situation is usually not so simple. In most cases, it is discovered that some scared young kid was surprised by a non-combant and opened fire with no deliberate intention of commiting murder. Which is not to say that if a combat soldier wished to commit murder, then there were ample opportunities for that, but, in general, the vast majority of soldiers try to honor their own personal moral convictions and at the same time protect themselves and their buddies. You are walking on very thin ground unless you have been in combat.

" Why do you think that Israel insists that the PA disarm the Palestinian militants before negotiations start?" Jeff, The answer: precisely because Israel is not ready to enter into comprehensive negotiations with the Palestinians. Politics in Israel doesn't allow for it. Sure the majority of Israelis don't care to hang onto the West Bank and don't promote the idea of ethnic cleansing to solve their "Palestinian" problem, but the politically mobilized in Israel are the rabid, messianic types who pour acid on soldiers when they try to pull them out of their little colony. As for your first comment: "The reason why Israel is reluctant to enter into negotiations with the PA at this stage is because the PA has no control whatsoever over the Palestinian militant groups." This is statement is only partially correct. In this particular situation, largely following the model of the colonial settler state, the PA doesn't represent a government with the associated powers. If a governing entity can not even sustain any semblence of sovereignty. that entity has no legitamcy at all. A brutal dictatorship actually has more real legitimacy than a democratically elected PA, because the dictator has control over his country. The PA does not, Israel does. So for the PA to capture the authority to squash the "terrorists" (although in the colonial settler state model, they are freedom fighters, however repugnant their methods), they must have Israel pull out of the West Bank and a final solution implemented that ultimately allows both sides to save face and maintain a dignified historical narrative for generations to come. This is the only way to aviod perpetual conflict. With all the failures of the PA and the corrupt ill will of the Israelis, this solution can't be implemented immediately, it should be staged properly, with appropriate security gaurantees for both parties along the way. In your terms, the stages go: first the Palestinians destroy the terrorists, then final peace talks can begin. This is folly, as I've shown above. WHile Israel remains in complete control, the PA has no real authority over their people. So the stages should go: First Israel declare a settlement freeze and a willingness to enter immediately into intensive discussions with the PA on final status. Then Hamas and others declare a continuation of a comprehensive ceasefire to last the duration of the peace talks. Shortly after, details of the final solution are published along the lines of the Geneva Accords. Shortly after, the details are implemented and change is seen on the ground by all. This could all be about a one year process. Then we all live happily ever after...

In response to Azzam's rant here is a liberal solution to the conflict: 1-Israel sceded about 90% of the west bank and all of Gaza for a Palestinian state. Pretty much along the security fence. 2-The Jews remaining in the sceded territory may either become full Palestinian citizens with equal rights or resident aliens with Israel citizenship. 3-Jews will have full access to and control of their holy places in the West Bank including Joseph's tomb and Hebron. 4-Arab residents of Jerusalem may become Israeli citizens or remain there as resident aliens. 5-Muslims will retain control of the temple mount with a provision giving Jews free access and a place to conduct prayers on the mount. The expected answer from Azzam and other fascists on this board: No way- Can't have Jews present in the West Bank. Can't have Jews in charge anywhere. Can't have Jews praying at their holiest site. etc.

I am not negotiating I am talking. I also "negotiate" with Gabe1 Sumayah Orquest and others you approve of. Please send me your list of approved correspondents. Thanks alot. Danite

Many of you seem to waltzing along as if some kind of dream right into the third intifada with out a care in the world.The fact that most of you do not consider this a very pressing issue that needs action now to forstal it is unreal to me. I could understand if it was only people who dont live there and who not will face the consequences but it is also people who live there who are just walzting along. That the Jews here do not see the long term price to pay by not helping Abbas win against Hamas and that palestinians do not see the longterm price for continued inaction on every issue is simply flabergasting. I get the impression that the memory of the second intifada has worn off completetly. Well the way most of you are going you will get a refreasher course soon enough, and then you will all blaming the other evading any responsibilty when you will have only yourselves to blame , as people usually do in most cases. Enjoy! The fruits of your labours are not long off. Danite

Dutch/Doris-He/She/It Andy Murray Yaccov Sulivan Realistic, Mona,Ibrahim,Azzam and all you other Antisemites and Suicidal/Homicidal apologists. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE and the OTHER DELUDED JEWS. Aren't you tited of repeating the same lies day in and day out. Lets agree Israel is the occupier, The all around bad guy-- SO WHAT? Israel is creating disease, sonic booms, blockades- SO WHAT? If you don't like the neighbourhood move out. You have 22 beautiful Free (of Jews)countries

If everything you just said was true and could be agreed upon by all militant factions... and if those factions would disarm after a final status deal and give up their pursuit for the destruction of Israel... I bet a final status agreement and an end to occupation could be hammered out in the next week or so. Just get your friends to make a public statement and the ball will be rolling.

The west bankers were palestinians who were forced to become citizens of Jordan and the Gazans were palestinians but not officialy incorporated into Egypt. My comments about supporting Abbas are not about "reaching out alan" in the way you mean it, it is acting to forstall the third intifada by proactive actions now before Hamas rules the roost entirely and with no breaks. Regards Danite

You would be wise not to listen to that deluded appeaser Danite.You got that open sewer hole called Gaza keep it and be happy for Gaza was First and Gaza was Last. Sharon has learned that no deals can be made with Abbas for he is no better than his predecessor. An Unreformed terror enabler and Holocaust Denier. And quit using Nazi references to posters here Judea and Samaria are mine and my peoples . If you wish start a Third Intifada go right ahead ya ebnel kalb and watch the IDF crush you and your other nocturnal rats the terrorists. You used up 720 Virgins. I would suggest you ask Muhammad to Prepare many more. AM ISRAEL HI THE IDF WILL WIN.

I confuse you? I have been repeating ad mauseum the same line everyday for the past 5 months. My views are crystal clear. How do I confuse you? I will be happy to clear anything up for.Your comment that there is nothing you can do about the third intifada though factually true is a total cop out. You nor I can do anything about a two state solution yet you are here and argue for it. I know you want it to come, you are not being wise Ibrahim, and will pay the price of what I consider to be dangerous folly. As the Good Book says "Can a man set a fire in his bossom and not his set his own clothes alight? Silly Silly Very Silly. Have it your way. I would still be interested in what you think of azzams post#66 on the UN article, it is a classic example of the thinking that you are going to hurt yourselves with.Danite

I was not rude in any way to Kim, with whom I have exchanged a few posts in the past. We disagree but politely, there was no problem with my post, she is aparticipant here and is as free to write me as I am her, she is a big girl and can respond for herself,also I am the only poster you have ever told "to lay off Kim" despite the awful rudness she is regularly exposed to why the selective outrage Gabe 1? You are looking to pick a fight with me by casting a false image of me and making an issue where there is not one. if Kim tells me I was rude or to buzz off I will and apologise to her okay? And if not you apologise to me.Okay tough guy? Danite

Read this and ponder gentlemen and ladies; http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1130954353662&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull Yea, the Palestinians really have moral standing to condemn the Israelis. What a joke. Israel; separate from these clowns as fast as you can.

Another Jew hater makes his return. Actually the PA has 45,000 troops. And the inner cities are not controlled by Israel. So it should not be a problem for these troops to have a secure prison in each of the major centres. Good try but sorry no cigar.

Did you get a new computer or had the old one fixed? There is no reason for Danite the appeaser to tell anyone what they can or cannot say. She is simply a deluded left wing humanist and has her theories debunked. To me you have more credibility in defending Israel than she ever will have. Looks like she is posting as "D' to give herself more credibility. Keep up the good work you have a lot of fans on this site. Including me as one.

Abbas has allied with the terrorist gangs.

So you want Abbas to deploy his troops in Judea and Samaria. What for?

If palestinians are to get something, they really need to see beyond israeli responses. They must have backbone to do those A's, B's and C's regardless of what Israel does, because most of those things are mostly for palestinian society, not that much for Israel. There is usually simple causality: you blow up something, fire rockets or otherwise behave like pigs, you suffer from it. It is simple rule that is very much universal in all parts of the world. It is also very much subjective thing to claim Israeli policies as "cruel." Compared to other conflicts, palestinians are in heaven. You can go and take a look at Chechenya, see how much hope they got. Or go, take a look at Sudan where islamist terrorists have committed genocide and other human rights violations way past anything that palestinians have ever seen. The way I see it, palestinians have lost their sense of proportion. They have in general quite good conditions, food, possibility for education, autonomy and many chances for peace, but still they behave like they have nothing if they don't get everything they desire. That's stupid. Very stupid. Actions of the weaker is not that much dependent from the good will of stronger. That is only an excuse for palestinians not doing anything. Throughout the history, many weak nations have been able to create progress in their society, some of them under very heavy pressure or opposition from stronger one. Still, they succeeded and usually it results strong society. But constant moaning, complaining and whining has never produced anything but misery. It never will. If I were in your shoes, I would first try to get internal affairs clear and under control. Only then there can be credibility to actually demand something from the others. Nobody never trusts anyone who is incapable of carrying his responsibilities. Yes, intifada3 will probably break out sooner or later. Isn't it ironc that every concession seems to breed new intifada?

``. And I will ask some people that I know in the occupied territories.``` Wow YOU are sooo well connected...WE are all so impressed.... ...I will ask some people I know in Tel Aviv...but the just sell Ice cream so may not know the answer..

"While Palestinian offenders are locked up and placed behind bars" Once the Palestinians are morally courageous enough to arrest their own murderers, then Israel won't have to do the dirty deed, will they?

Comparing Jake to Goebels is way down low ya ebnel kalb.And now you have the sinoc booms to add to your kvetching. You are pathetit. And that is the type of person that Danite is negotiating with

Howdy Ibrahim; The reason why Israel is reluctant to enter into negotiations with the PA at this stage is because the PA has no control whatsoever over the Palestinian militant groups. In other words, even if the PA and Israel could come to an agreement, the people with the guns, RPGs, explosives, etc. on the Palestinian side even if they are in the minority have no intention of abiding by it. Israel can handle its extremists, but the PA cannot or will not. Why should Israel make an agreement with the PA that is going to be completely ignored by the Palestinian militant groups? If Israel orders the IDF to go here or there or do this or that, it does so, but if the PA orders Hamas, Islamic Jihad, et al to do thus or so, they do not obey. No big surprise, then, that Israel is reluctant to negotiate with an entity which does not represent the very people that she is engaged in mortal combat with. Why do you think that Israel insists that the PA disarm the Palestinian militants before negotiations start?

"The two of them were traveling in a car with a red Palestinian Authority security license plate." Unbelievable. Thanks for the information.

So because allegedly the "Palestinian street" supports terrorism to wipe Israel off the map, you argue that Occupying and completely controlling the lives of these 3,5 million people is permissible? This remains a question of proportions. The Occupation and its daily structural violence against the peaceful lives of millions of people is the issue, more than the direct violence perpetrated by both sides. As a paranthesis, I think it is obvious that a gross disproportionality in measures to curb terrorism, will spawn new frustrated attacks by young people who are born into this situation. Finally, having lived now a month in the Occupied Territories, I must say I have the Palestinian streets I have wandered are all full of people who beg for Israel to get out of their lives (including lands east of the green line). They understand they cannot anymore get 45% of the land, as Israel agreed to in 1949. They accept Israel's right to exist, as did Arafat in the late eighties. Even Hamas-people I have talked with say they are ready to negotiate this, meaning they want compensation to the refugees first, but will then lose their entire popular support unless they cease their violence.

Ibrahim, Once again you prove unable to post to me without lobbing personal attacks. Is this another Palestinian virtue I should add to my list? Palestinian parents passing out "sweets" after suicide bombers murder innocents still ranks high on the list of odious behaviour. I'm not Israeli. I'm an American. And as I have repeated stated in my posts to you, I vehemently hate terrorists. Once the Palestinians repudiate their terrorists in their midst, they shall earn my respect. Until then I support Israel in its fight against terrorism.

Apart from cribbing with the b'tselem figures you're also cribbing with the truth again. The responsibility for the greater part of the Palestinian deaths as a result of the intifida that Arafat started to avoid making peace with Israel lies directly with the Palestinian leaders and the terrorists themselves. How can you say the IDF killed over a hundred Palestinian suicide bombers? How can you claim Israel was responsible for the hundreds of Palestinian deaths in workplace accidents? Is Israel responsible when the Palestinians kill their own because of tribal differences or allegations of "collaboration"? Then there are the Palestinian children. The ones shown in the countless photo galleries that litter the internet standing around the thugs bearing arms and throwing molotov cocktails. The Geneva Convention forbids this sort of behaviour. Kofi Annan condemned the practice when used by combatant groups in the Balkans. It happens on a daily basis in Gaza and the West Bank. So don't be such a hypocrite and stop whining about Palestinian casualties. The great majority are self-inflicted.

Where did you get your law degree and who on the Arab side retained you. Kim is more of an Israeli patriot than you will ever be. So don't harass her. The Neverlanders are not your concern or responsibility. Harass Ibrahim, Realistic , Sulliman and the like.

Azzam, Regardless of how many different ways you propose the distruction of Israel it is still a non-liberal idea. Israel is the state of the Jewish nation the same way that France is the state of the French people. You are a fraud. An Arab in North America mascarading as a victimized Palestinian in the West Bank.

Kim, Your Question: "What has happened to the greenhouses in Gaza?" Based on my reading, about 70% are functioning and it's harvest time. The balance are in various states of repair, but parts, like plastic sheeting needs to be imported and so far Israel won't allow that. The most immediate problem is what will happen to the harvest. Allowing the export of the harvest has absolutely nothing to do with Israeli security. Mark

Ibrahim and others keep banging on about the need for Israel to return to the negotiating table, to restart the "peace process". Why should Israel do that? Arafat already spurned the best offer the Palestinians are likely to get. Israel doesn't have any more concessions it can make ( which was part of Barak's foolishness - terrible negotiating style). Israel should just finish building the fence, and respond to any subsequent terror attacks with huge force, until the OTHER side are prepared to make some concessions.

Shlomo- Why should the Palestinians build anything when the Israeli Army has been busy tearing it down? During the last four years the Israeli Army has destroyed between 1-2 billion dollars in Palestinian infrastructure, demolished 5,000 homes and left over 60,000 people homeless or displaced; uprooted over one million Olive Trees and confiscated over 900,000 dunams to build an illegal barrier in deep inside the Palestinian territories. Dutch

Kim and others repeatedly say that the PA has 30,000 troops (police) and have plenty of ability to enforce calm (find terrorists and arrest them). If Abbas ordered it could 10,000 of these armed troops be sent anywhere Abbas sent them in the West Bank? How many hours/days of delay would there be getting from Jericho and Ramallah to Tulkarem or Nablus? If they arrested somebody on Israel's list, could they get them past the checkpoints to a secure PA-run jail in a non-occupied area?

and there you have it Gina "stop your violence, start engaging in meaningful peace process, and I am sure the 'terror' can be squashed quite easily" open up the borders Gina.....let them in....we have Ibrahims' word ! who is the gullable one ? WWW.TRUTH-SPEAK.NET

Whereas you Yaacov, eliminate any vestige of security and ignore the 1,000+ Israeli dead of the past five years. Apparently those casualties are the Israeli?s fault as well? Or are they just imaginary figures in your mind, more Jewish lives with whom you must suffer with. Lives not worth living, or only existing as a liability. Yes, the occupation is caustic to both Palestinians and Israelis. That?s a term I don?t use lightly, and it encompasses all of the suffering faced on a daily basis by the Palestinians. But this is not a situation created by one party alone. There is a real cost to the Palestinian decision to fight another war with Israel for the past five years. Five years ago there was no wall. Five years ago there were substantial contacts between Israeli?s and Palestinians. Five years ago there was a flourishing Palestinian economy. Five years ago tens of thousands of Palestinians came to Israel for work. Now, none of that happens due to Arafat?s last war. Of course 15 years ago 300,000 Palestinians went to Kuwait for work, and thanks to Yasser Arafat?s glad-handing, they got booted out on their behinds with not so much as a squeak. The reality is that Israel indeed tried to get out of the occupation business. The same reality is that Yasser Arafat never got out of the terrorist business. You apparently would prefer a redo of the Lebanese civil war in Israel. Today Israel is out of Gaza. Gone. What happened immediately after its withdrawal? HAMAS rushed to empty its arms depot in Egypt to restock Gaza?s weapons. Less than two weeks after that, they resumed shelling Sderot. So forgive me if I feel somewhat less than charitable towards the Palestinian stance. Of course, the decision to move into the West Bank and Gaza was also not done in a vacuum. You attempt to write off 40 years of Arab history. The old call was land in exchange for peace. To date, I?ve seen little of that peace. That decision comes at a cost of land. There is no free lunch. The Arabs don?t get to commit to a multi-decade war and then turn around and say, now we?re upset cause we didn?t get the land back through violence. Today?s HAMAS and Islamic Jihad are no different than the PLO. The same for Hizballah, though they appear to have heavier weapons and better training from Iran. You appear to believe that only the Arabs have a right to their anger, and the old canard that Israel has no right to self- defense.

Please take a look http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1129540617128&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

As usual, the children calling themselves palestinians are not responsible for their own behavior. These very pious people cannot control themselvesfrom corruption because of the hardship of occupation. Stacked up against other religions, islam looks pretty pathetic if that's the case. They're strong enough to give their lives and those off their children to murder, but not strong enough to not steal?? Give me a break!

"If the Arabs had accepted a state the numerous times it was offered to them, the Palestinians would probably be a prosperous people, fortunate enough to be assisted by Israel and its prosperity." You kid yourself Gina. IF the palestinians had recieved a trillion dollars from the US since 1948, there would be no Israel. Israel is not an independently prosperous nation. It is a parasite thriving off the success of the USA. Alaways rememeber that Israel is nothing if left on its own.

Why has Abbas asked Israel to release all the terrorists of any kind, not only Fatah and al-aqsa martyrizers?

Danite where did you get your law degree and let me know who retained you to act as the Neverlanders lawyer. Leave Kim alone. She does a more dilligent job on this site on behalf of Israel than you do.I am sure there are other targets such as Sulliman, Realistic, Ibrahim, mona etc. So lay off Kim.

" Barghouti did not do much different than many Israeli generals and government officials: embrace violence as a way to solve political problems" Ibrahim--- I see this situation regarding Palestinians offenders verses Israeli offenders as a great injustice today. While Palestinian offenders are locked up and placed behind bars -- their Israeli counterparts are walking about Scot free with blood on their hands. Now this is terribly unfair. According to the Israeli Human rights group B"Tselem during the last four years the Israeli army has killed almost 4,000 Palestinians and injured some 30,000 others. Yet when Human Right Watch in New York released its 126 page report on Israeli Probes into Palestinian deaths last June they called the system "a sham." They said only 5% of all Palestinian fatalities during the last four years of the conflict were investigated to determine whether soldiers used force unlawfully were investigated. Of the 130 cases that were investigated only 28 indictments were passed down. Thus Human Rights Watch group said: "The government's failure to investigate the deaths of of innocent Palestinian civilians has created an atmosphere that encourages soldiers to think they can literally get away with murder". How shocking! The Human Rights Watch group said the crux of the probe was the way the military justice system relies on soldiers' testimony to determine if a police investigation is necessary without considering testimony from nonmilitary witnesses to reconcile discrepancies between soldiers account, with videos, medical, , etc. They said the probes were not in line with international standards and the urged the army's to set up an independent body to investigate serious human rights abuses. Still, I feel the root causes of this injustice may be found in the example from Alexander Yakoson column: Crimes, not infarctions, in Haazart'z last September: "Once there was a chief of staff who sent the following educational message --which of course, was never explicitly stated, but was well understood --to the IDF soldiers, he was strict about all matters of discipline, and took very seriously all violations except one, the premeditated murder of an Arab. When it came to this offense, he was full of consideration and leniency. This message was effectively communicated in a series of pardons granted by that chief of staff to soldiers who murdered Arabs. " And while Yokobson admits there is no warfare among civilians that doesn't involve civilians he is quick to note: "This is not a reason to treat the perpetrators lightly. On the contrary , it is a reason to punish them as severely as a modern country of laws will allow, in order to disseminate an unequivocal message and reduce the phenomenon as much as possible". Dutch

I suppose it all depends on what the PA's aims happen to be. You might be able to work it out from a Reuters report on 1 November 2005 that describes the Israel strike that killed Fawzi Abu al-Qarea, leader of Hamas's armed wing in the camp, and Hassan al-Madhoun, a top al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades commander. The two of them were travelling in a car with a red Palestinian Authority security license plate. Al Aksa has also been co-orinating attacks on Israeli civilians with Islamic Jihad. Anyone else see a connection here?

Have alook at Azzams post #66 on the UN and Holocaust day article , go ahead then tell me I wrong about self defeating attitudes and I am curious to know what you think about those opinions. Danite

``and I am sorry for the pain I caused you.`` ...good lawrd get a grip...BARF...

"Sharon was the only Israeli politician who stuck to his guns" when he said he would never shake hands with Arafat the terrorist. And please stop blaming Israel for everything the PA fails to do, its your own fault Exactly Steven, you said it! Sharon stuck to his GUNS and that's the problem, even if you can't see it.

I understand and fully appreciate that Jewish access to power did help the poor souls who perished in Nazi death camps. That was not my point. Didn't mean to offend you. I am not aware of Muftis killing more Arabs than British or Jews? What was their intention or motivation for doing this? Anyway, it seems a bit off topic. You make it out like the Palestinians could simply have a state if they did A B and C, irrespective of the cruelty of Israeli policy? I am afraid the world is not so disconnected and independant. Jew and Palestinian are joined at the hip in Israel/Palestine. Success requires action from Both. Action from the weaker is dependent on good will from the stronger. Sure, Palestinians aren't helping themselves as much as I would like, but I my criticism of Palestinians can't be done out of the context of the brutal and abusive Israel occupation. Planning for intifaddeh-3? Wouldn't you if you were in our shoes? Isn't Israel planning for all kinds of contingencies, like a nuclear holocaust? Intifaddeh-3 will probably break out within 6 months and it will be sparked by the Israel killing of a dozen or so civillians in an air strike... Saddly, this is the most likely scenerio and there isn't shit I can do about it.

I am very sorry if that bothers you. They don't recognize Israel. So I don't recognize an Arab Palestinian state, which has never existed. Don't they say Israel robbed them of their land and is occupying it? I say Israel isn't occupying them because they never had a homeland. They don't want self determination, as they have demonstrated many times. I know they are people. And they are also a pain in the neck. Regards Kim

That was spot on , but he doeant need to go to Syria or Iran just tell his own people would be good. Regards Danite

"Fagin", you raise a very good subject, and you are right about Palestinians being likely the best educated in the Arab World. But what is the connection to the state of Israel? Are you saying that Israel built all the institutions of higher learning for their arab neighbours? If so, please provide some evidence to support your claim. And I will ask some people that I know in the occupied territories.

You people have bought into Israel's narrative without a single micron of deviation. That is the definition of GULLIBLE!!! Are you people capable of an original thought beyound what your leadership spews out to you? D- Israel wants to control the land but not the Palestinians...this is why we have a conflict. My experience with Israeli Jews is that they are more interested in which club they are going to hang out in on Friday Night than what goes on in the territories. Gina- You have a pretty name but nothing but ugliness comes from you posts. We don't glorify "teror". What sillyness. You must be a teenager? The Palestinian debate is how do you get Israeli Jews off our backs? Do you use violence against their overwhelming might? Or do you try to use peacefuls means? Both sides have valid arguments. Israeli society is quite violent. You suffer from a culture of violence that Palestinians have unfortunatley been the victims of for too long. Stop your violence, start engaging in meaningful peace process, and I am sure the "terror" can be squashed quite easily.

The fence doesn't prevent the "Pals" from working in Gaza. They have nothing to do in Israel. I know Israel blew up the airport and the port because the "Pals" used them for terrorism against Israel. If you don't like the fence, the airport and port blown up, etc., why don't you stop terrorism? What has happened to the greenhouses in Gaza? --- I don't need to know English to work for my country.

In light of your comment to Kim: since the arabs wont answer, hopefully you will 1) why before 1967 were the palestinians called Jordanians and the Gazans were Egyptian? 2) why should Israel be responsible for their welfare ? Just as Israel took in 1 million jewish refugees kicked out of arab lands....the arab governments must do the same Lets see----they came to murder us and now we are supposed to reach out to them? www.jac.up.co.il

"NPR just did a story last night on how impossible it is for a Palestinian to run any type of import export business from Gaza. Too much uncertainty as to when Israel opens the Karni crossing to goods and services." Since neither Egypt or the PA kept to its signed agreements after Israel pulled out of Gaza, allowing a free for all at the Sinai border, when huge quantities of weaponry were brought into Gaza, it would be prudent on Israel's part to seal the Israel-Gaza completely. Everyone is aware that the Palestinians number 1 priority now is to heat up the west bank theatre to try and force the Israelis out of the west bank. How to do this? By importing weapons and bomb making know-how into the west bank. Israel should tighten up its border checks/security on ALL its borders, but especially at its border with Gaza.

"And besides the terrorist who blew himself up last Wednesday entered throught one of the gates of the fence." Thanks. I figured as much but hadn't yet seen confirmation. Israel -- Build that Security Fence High.

They are called Palestinians not neverlanders.If they are willing to accpet Israel then they deserve the same right of national self determination. They are a people we have to deal with that fact Kim. As we are people and they have to deal with that fact. Regards danite

"Truth: If modern day Israel had never been founded, there would be peace in the middle east." OR -- If the Arabs had accepted a state the numerous times it was offered to them, the Palestinians would probably be a prosperous people, fortunate enough to be assisted by Israel and its prosperity. Instead the entire Arab/Islamic world has a GDP less than that of Spain because they chose to make continued war against one tiny Jewish nation. "Free Palestine!!!" From the stench of Palestinian terrorism and Palestinian justification of terrorism.

"Today, we have your foreign minister declaring to the world: We don`t want to continue with air raids and targetted killings. We`ll stop once Abbas starts doing it himself. This is DOUBLE SPEAK at its finest" How exactly does this qualify as double speak? I think its one of his few intelligent comments, and I reckon its true. Israel would LOVE to see Abbas disarming/arresting the terrorists, and would stop their own counter terror actions in a flash.

Your Crystal ball is right AZZAM.I don't agree with anexation simply because it's unrealistic.The only people who want to annex are the Jewish extremists and there aren't that many of them My solution to the conflict is the Geneva Initiative. Israel pulls out from Arab Palestine once and for all settlements and all behind the green line.If some settlers choose to stay behind they may do so as Palestinian citizens knowing that palestinians may claim their land some day... Palestinian state is established on the West Bank,Gaza and Al Quds. Israel and the world community makes a big effort to help re-construction of Palestinian state and especially compensating refugees and getting them out of the camps. Israel and Palestine establish a common econmic market.They both enact legislation establishing secular states for all their respective citizens irrespective of their religion or ethnic background. Gradually they allow free movement for their respective citizens between the two countries as long as nobody claims the right to "return" in the other's country. Now my crystal ball tells me that AZZAM will never accept such a solution because arabs in Palestine will simply become lackeys and servants of Jews "like the rest of the world" in your opinion AM I RIGHT OR....AM I RIGHT AZZAM. At least we have now a bit of a debate now AZZAM

"Palestinians are "terror embracing people" now..." Does the Palestinian Authority arrest and imprison its terrorists? Does the Palestinian media present Palestinian terrorism as the vile and odious evil that it is? Are there streets, schools and soccer teams named after "martyr" trash? Does the Palestinian leadership actively repudiate its terrorist groups in any manner whatsoever? The United States has just imprisoned a Jewish terrorist that was to target various mosques. The US has imprisoned numerous Islamic terrorists. The US has imprisoned numerous domestic terrorists. This is what civilized societies do. On the other hand, The Palestinian society honors its terrorist murderers. The Palestinian society, until it actively and demonstrably repudiates its terrorist groups, remains a terrorist - embracing society.

It seems to me, if I remember correctly, that I have heard the expression "double occupation" once before. In the intervening years I hope that I have learned a few things, and I am sorry for the pain I caused you.

Jews had access to the highlest levers of power in the west while the holacaust was going on? And tell me what good did it do them? They wouldnt even bomb the concentration camps, is this supposed access supposed to mean what exactly??? The western nations with the exceptionof Britain closed the doors to Jewsih immigration in the mid thirties, some access that was!!! Also the Arabs tried to rebel against Britain!936-1939 but the Muftis men killed more Arabs than they British or Jews.It was the Jews who drove out the British and prepared for statehood nothing ot learn? Suit your self. Ibrahim as I said you can come up with excuses and reasons all you want, the fact is you a re preparing for the third intifada and simply dont want the gangs to disarm thats it it is shortsighted but its your party I think Israel can learn alot form the Arabs political diplomatic propoganda skills, if you dont want to learn from people who have been your situation at least 100 times in history once again my friend you will sleep in the bed you make. You are only putting off your dreams. Too bad.Danite

'Why are you complaining here instead of being working to build your country?' I tend to stop working a little before midnight and by the quality of your English I can tell you do to. How do expects the Palestinian to build a country when there is a 30 foot wall cutting through their homes. You say Israel helped the Palestinian economey (LOL) I suppose blowing up the port of gaza, the airport, blocking thousands of roads and cutting Palestines access to the outside world are all very helpful in building up Palestine. ISRAEL HAS DESTROYED WHATEVER PALESTINE MANAGED TO SET up.

Indeed it is a matter of the chicken and the egg. And the roadblocks are the egg produced by a chicken that wants to control the roost. One can no longer remain so aloof and see the situation as one where the Israelis are the innocent victims being set upon by a less than human rabble that lusts for nothing so much as the destruction of their neighbour whom they do not want in the neighbourhood. You are less that wise, Jacob Blues, when you reduce the occupation and all its excesses as necessary for Israeli security. The occupation has not made Israel more secure for one moment, nor can it. You know as well as I do that there has been no will or action to eradicate the occupation, the annexation of land, destruction of fields, property, access to and allocation of resources. This is never, ever figured in to your analysis of the current situation and you apparently buy into the argument that roadblocks and walls are the solution, along with more annexation. Through it all, you expect the will of the Palestinians whom your treat like dogs, to produce doves. Amira Hass knows that and that is precisely why she is despised by those who are hunched over with their myths and cover ups, of why the occupation is necessary for Israel's security.

Somehow, today, Sgt Northridge, you seem almost reasonable enough to talk to. Are you softening? Yes, the borders can be open to debate and discussion, but you should be reminded it is the Israeli's who are the reluctant party to come to the table. Perhaps you haven't noticed this fine point? Abbas can only beg Sharon so much to sit down and NEGOTIATE. In the absence of Israeli willingness to negotiate an end to hostilities, Palestinians can only judge their real intentions by how they behave...Behavior is key...and I happen to be a student of B.F. Skinner. Israel's behavior leads one to believe they have NO INTEREST in seeing the Palestinians have a state of their own free from Israeli domination. The Jewish experience has not evolved to this point yet...but it will in time. As for your last comment, I will grant you the fact that a small minority of Palestinians still babble about "the destruction of the Zionist entity"...but they are a minority...probably a lower percentage than the rejectionist Jews. The issue is not about survival of the state of Israel...this is plain for all to see. The issue is about getting Israel to make reasonable concessions so that 3.5 million Palestinians don't have to be subjagated for 200,000 settlers, most of whom keep second homes in the U.S. anyway.

"HOW DO YOU MAKE ISRAEL ACCEPT THAT THE PALESTINIANS SHOULD LIVE FREE FROM JEWISH CONTROL?" There is nothing to accept. Israeli's do not want the burden of controlling Palestinains. The burden is forced upon them to prevent violent attacks. The majority of the Israeli public gain nothing from occupation. If countries like Iran and Syria stopped supporting terrorist attacks and Palestinains chose to disarms Hamas, there would be an outcry heard throughout Israel to end occupation and dismantle settlements. Stop and think - for what other reason would the majority of Israelis be willing to support these measures? The true territorial expansionists are a vast minority, and the majority is only seeking security measures. The trend is clear throughout Israel's histrory. Whenever there is prolonged calm, the left emerges with peace negotiations. When there is violence, the right emerges with raids, walls, and curfews. Israeli's want a free, independent and peaceful Palestine. if you are serious about this goal, go to Iran and Syria and tell them so.

Police on Wednesday night arrested a 15-year-old Palestinian youth suspected of stabbing an Israeli woman outside a park in central Jerusalem. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/640973.html

As has been pointed out several times before by many, Abu Mazen has control (at least the pocketbooks) of the Palestinian security forces. On the books, roughly 30,000 troops. To date, he has not used them. Gaza is turning into a mess, that even the Palestinians acknowledge. Several weeks back, the NY Times had a front page article how the governance of Gaza is reverting back to the old clans. During the past week, the Lebanese Daily Star had an op-ed about the seriousness of the collapse of Gaza. I believe the reference used was that it is looking more and more like Mogidishu. That's a bad, bad analogy. Very scary. It's likely that without intervention, Gaza will turn into the Palestinian version of the Lebanese refugee camps or if you have a Sci-fi bent, like the movie "Escape from Manhattan" starring Kurt Russel as Snake. Thomas Friedman talked about this phenomena (not the Palestinians in particular, either in Gaza or Lebanon) as to how the world will begin to wall off those areas that are sinking into the muck of civil strife in his book the Lexus and the Olive Branch. bm's forecast on the West Bank looks more and more valid as the maximum the Palestinians will achieve in the West Bank. HAMAS, Fatah and Islamic Jihad still have yet to realize that their attempt to turn Israel into a modern day version of the Lebanese civil war has failed due to the huge disparity in power. The wall around the West Bank is proof of that failure. The so-called next war isn't going to happen. At most you're going to get a fight in the West Bank. But nothing like what was seen two - three years ago.

Israel is not occupying the Neverlanders. It has never been. The neverlanders are occupied by themselves. There are lots of terrorist organizations among them and the people who are not in those organizations support them. The PA doesn't want to dismantle the terrorist organizations because it should start by dismantling itself. Far from it, the PA has become to alliances with other terrorist organizations.

Danite, My message on Haaretz is largely taylored to the listeners, the majority of whom are Jewish and supporters of Israel. I could care less if a Palestinian wants to label me a zionist stooge for saying what needs to be done. I guess you aren't around enough Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank and Gaza, to know that a healthy discussion is ongoing about the corruption in the PA. Like I said, we are much less naive about our leadership than Jews are about their's. What point is there is me babbling about our failings on this site? Particularly when the vast majority of our problem, as you sort of seem to acknowlege is Israel. As for Larson's comments, they were right on the mark, but don't forget for every critical comment Larson made about Palestinians, there were 10 made about Israel. And that's about the ratio of blame right about now: 10 to 1. Larson's comments were made largely out of exasperation at the stagnant situation which is dictated by Israel. Hamas were lame brains for how they responded to Mr. Larson. I talked to some UN people in 2004 while I was there. They were the ones who patrol Hebron. They told me the Jews HATED them and the Palestinians thought they were USELESS....but however useless they were, they told me they should not have Palestinian's stoning their vehicles....Shame on the Palestinians in Hebron for throwing stones at a UN vehicle...but then again, I can understand their desperation at being called in for daily curfews so these settlers can parade around like power tripped clowns. So how long do think reforms you speak of can last while we are being strangled by Israel? The situation as dictated by Israel is inherently unstable... As for using tactics of the small, I would guard against comparisons to the Jewish experience, which is indeed full of contradictions and extremes...On the one hand, your people were being ravaged by the Nazis, on the other hand, Jews still had intimate access to the highest levels of power in the West. The British had little motivation to keep the Palestine Mandate....the Palestinians are not fighting the tired, worn out British, we are fighting the crazy, highly energized, Jewish settlers and the government that supports them.... More differences than similarities. So it all boils down to HOW DO YOU MAKE ISRAEL ACCEPT THAT THE PALESTINIANS SHOULD LIVE FREE FROM JEWISH CONTROL? Danite, for every idea I have for how the Palestinians can take matters into their own hands, I can see how Israel can stop them dead in their tracks. It's all screwed up. Ibrahim

Read more on the homepage of Haaretz.

But he doesn't want to dismantle the terrorist groups. Isn't he the president of Fatah? After Wednesday bombing, the Iranian-sponsored Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. In Gaza City, masked Fatah and Islamic Jihad terrorists held a joint press conference where they claimed joint responsibility for the bombing. A Fatah spokesman further announced that any attack against Islamic Jihad will be viewed as an attack against Fatah as well.

peace in the middle east? who are you kidding ? Lebanon civil war Jordan kicked out palestinians-1970 Iraq starts war with Iran - 1980 Iraq invades Kuwait 1990 iRAQ kills many Kurds and others Kuwait expels Palestinians OBL & CO. terrorize moderate arab/muslim governments if thats peace to you......i'll take war !!!!!! PALESTINE IS FREE----ITS CALLED JORDAN

Your hypocrasy is reaching diabolical levels. Here you are asking if it was so bad in Iran why didnt everylast jew flee to Israel. But if someone would ask if Israel is so bad why didnt every Palestinian flee to Jordan you would go into a enitre dissertation on the Zionist racist evasive tactic that was wouldnt you? Isee for you "heads is tails" isnt it.

You mean the gift of Gaza was not a sign of Israel's good will based upon the "daily flights over Gaza". You forget that the terrorists have never stopped attacking Israel so Israel is right to run those flights to scare the people. If the "Pals" are scared they should protest to their authorities, who are allowing and encouraging the terrorists to murder Israelis. If they are scared, they should think how a victim or a victim of terror's family can feel when they are hit by "Pals" bomb. I cannot believe those women, children and everyone else can be scared by booms, when they are used to manipulating bombs and to celebrating the slaughter of Israelis to pieces and of their own relatives when they explode.

Israel went off on a revenge trip by destroying much of what was built by EU donations. The EU is looking for guarantees from Israel that they won't bomb the next humanitarian project that goes up.... It's time for Israel to stop destroying, stop whining and start acting like a nation based on justice and law.

The PA has been given a lot of money by many countries to no avail but for the terrorists and the PA officials, Suha included, since she is now in the PA payroll. Arafat financed terrorism and also pocketed all the money he could while the poor "pals" were living in miserable conditions. And where is now Arafat's money? Besides you were given the Gaza greenhouses by a group of American philantropists who wanted to give you a hand. Where the greenhouses have gone?

The middle east is a large football field. In the middle lay a small tiny winny matchbox. The arabs reckon that if you gave them half that tiny box, there will be peace and prosperity. Ya right.......... Can't you all simply see the truth as it is? That is with the help of the worldwide community Israel has been denied it's right to it's historical and bibblical homeland! The arab population is a nomade entity who came from arabia after the jews were slaughtered and/or kicked out by the romans. 3 times a day we have been praying to coming back home. After every single meal or snack we have been asking for the day of the return to our land. This fact alone should have been constantly used by politicians instead of the ambiguous hypocritical diplomatic language!

Jake, I thought you were a bit more honest and realistic. What really is the status of the people of Gaza when they can't live without sonic booms occuring daily at the whim of the IDF. Are you playing Goebels or are you trying to resolve a conflict?

The main cause for the Neverlanders to be unable to build their state is that their "rulers" are a bunch of terrorists, thugs and thieves. Israel has given you a lot of things, many more than you deserve. Howeever, you don't stop whining and blaming others for your own deeds. Why are you complaining here instead of being working to build your country

#60 Kim and Andy Murray... Name: Levy --- You are right. The "Pals" say the Zionists are very bad so they shouldn't go to Israel. And if they try to go, they should be prevented from doing it so they cannot critizise the Israelis do this or the other. The fence should be sealed so nobody could have access into Israel. And besides the terrorist who blew himself up last Wednesday entered throught one of the gates of the fence.

What you would have done if you had a neighbor killing your family members and intent on stealing your home and land? People like you fuel the terror by justifing it.All your arguments are too rediculous to even be called arguments.All you have to offer is the old rubbish of accusing the victim.I will never read you again just like I no longer read the poison dished out here by your friends the PA residets.

Nothing more to add? You will not acknowledge will you? You wont think on it any further.Danite

The PA wants to please Israel? LOL Where do you come up with this junk?

I think my questions were straight foward, not worthy of a response or do you avoid showing your colours by your silence? They were good and pertinent questions.

Israel makes a bold move and hands over Gaza to the Palestinians who in return were supposed to clamp down on the terrorists among them. THEY FAILED. And yet here you whine that Israel isn't doing enough. INNOCENT Israeli's died but hey, let's just open up the flood gates and watch more Israeli's die. Israel is doing what every nation has a right to do....protect their citizens. What I find most disturbing about your opinion is that you actually believe the Palestinians will stop the attacks should they get everything they want. It's easy for you to play arm chair general from Ontario where your life isn't threatened on a daily basis. Israeli's don't target civilian population but Palestinians do and your justification of Palestinians terrorist attacks WILL NOT BRING PEACE.

Sadly for the PA ARABS the wrold lost interest.Their repeat performence of more and more terror is sickening everyone .Even the ARAB world is bored with them. BASICALLY ,THEY BECAME A SNORE.They are disapearing from the news and if they are in the news they are now shown in the right light -the bad light that they deserve. They could have had it all but now even their own people wish to go as far away as possible from this hell hole they created for themselves.

Right. After the Palestinians rejected their own state in 1947, maybe the best solution would have been for Egypt to annex Gaza and Jordan annex part of West Bank Forever. But of course, these Arabs never wanted to help out their fellow brothers, Palestinians. And yet everyone blames Israel. These Arabs rather let pals suffer.

Truth: If modern day Israel had never been founded, there would be peace in the middle east. Free Palestine!!!

The primary subject of ths article is the feelings of love that Amira Hass has for Arafatists. As an inciteful look at the PA and its problems, it bats a zero. Originally conceived to imitate the "government in exile" model, the PA is a make-believe government of a make-believe state. It does not need popular support--- which it does not have---because it is entirely funded by foreigners. All government fuctions, budget allocation decisions, all monies are handled by a small group, without reference to any make-believe citizens. If the government fuctionaries were British, the Arabs would cry "colonialism." Now, the PA is entrenched, and likely to be an obstacle to authentic Palestinian statehood.

Howdy Ibrahim; The core problem is in deciding exactly where the Goddamned border is. The borders of the Gaza Strip as per the Israeli-Egyptian Territorial Exchange Agreement of 1950 are pretty much fixed and recognized by the international community, but the border between Israel and the West Bank is not. In order for there to be an agreement on this, it must comply with a clause in UNSCR 242 which states that: Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force; If the Palestinians wish to continue their goal of the "destruction of the Zionist entity", then they will not get a state of their of own. Your call.

As much as I despise Saddam INSANE, I can't help but admire his attempt at drawing in the entire Muslim world into the first Gulf War by bombing Israel. Had Israel fired back at Saddam, everyone here knows that Saddam's attempt would have been realized. That bastard Saddam,invaded a country, killed the people, destroyed their property and ran like a dog with his tail between his leg....and Arafat supported it. This is the man Palestinians believed in and followed and what did it get them? Nothing, but their not letting that stop them from carrying on with Arafat's tradition of damaging anything within arms reach of them.

It's too bad you don't have your own column in a newspaper, because you are good at making people laugh and really think all at the same time. Hopefully we will see your commentary alot more around here. "Sliding Naked on Sandpaper"....very clever way to get people to read your opinion. Very clever.

Mr Murray- you know where you can stick the international argument. That accusations is stale and useless. Israel does not keep the Gazans imprisoned, under lockdown. They are able to move on free will. They can travel abroad if they so wish to. So please stop with your lies and hate filled propaganda. Your a broken record that no one is listening to. Please study the history of the conflict and you will see how Israel inherited these territories. Israel has handed over the Sinai and Gaza in exchange for peace. As for the crossing of goods, Israel has every right to supervise all crossings since many of the "goods" are weapons and other dangerous material.

If the PA handed over all the power to the IDF, the terrorists in the PA could teach the people of Israel the finer points in suicide bombing, the stoning of women, the effort it takes in instilling hatred into one's children. The list can go on and on.

The world acts as if the Palestinian's are the only ones who suffer today when clearly that is not true. I say we concentrate more of our efforts on helping the people of Iran. People who actually want to be helped, who want the violence to stop. Palestinians have hogged the world stage for far too long now....let's concentrate on the Iranians. Perhaps the people of Iran will set an example for the Palestinians and show them what they can have if they put their hatred away.

And I include you in that set as well. You give the chicken and egg argument. It's false. Israel has a right and responsibility to protect itself. The checkpoints denigrated by AH in today's op-ed are but one means of doing so. As I pointed out previously, there is a balance between security and corruption. Yes, one can make a legitimate complaint that the checkpoints cause hardship to the Palestinians. It's also true that loose interpetations of orders could result in abuse of the system by soldiers on the ground. But that doesn't remove the reality that the checkpoints provide a real security benefit. AH's op-ed today completely absolves the PA from any responsibility. Her argument is how can the PA be considered a responsible government when there is occupation. Her comments that because Abu Mazen does not have the power or authority to move Palestinian citizens he therefore has no power to affect the militants. That's a cop-out. Since 1964, the PLO stood as the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people". The world accepted that claim. Now all of a sudden, we're being told that this is false and that they shouldn't be held accountable.

"Media Watch: God help anyone who swollows anything from your book. I think it would make me want to vomit. Dutch" Maybe now you can empathize with the predicament of those who have the misfortune of accidentally reading one of your postings.

keep dreaming......Jordan is Palestine.... and thats it. no second state for palestinians !!!

the best part of it......he pays tax dollars to the US government.... maybe he is a closet zionist ?

as long as palestinians continue with terror, Israel MUST continue building in Judea & Samaria. If Abbas cannot or will not disarm his cowards then why in the world should Israel stop building --- these are disputed lands not 'occupied' www.shoebat.com

in ibrahim's mind they are the same. the reality is Barghouti killed many innocent people. Ibrahim, and his cronies would like you to believe that terrorists are innocent, so when Israel targets them, he views it as the same as killing an innocent Israeli child. USA DOESNT NEGOTIATE WITH OBL & CO. WHY SHOULD ISRAEL NEGOTIATE WITH PALESTINIANS ?

the reason jwes been survived in any moslem countries,becuase we been paid to the ruler of time.and some time we been attack and been killed.for example.the name of esfahan it used to be daralyahood.it mean the jweish land.becuase the majority of populiation been jwes.but in 13 century they been attacked by moslem and lot of them been killed and some they moved to other cities like yazd.shiraz.kerman.and some been convert to islam.wich untill know they speak our jweish language.but they dont realize that.and they are so extreme fanatic,you asked,why did we stay,my answer where could we go,all around islamic countries.we did not have our state,thing changed when the great reza shah toke power.he was smart.he tried to copy the ata turk idea.he brought new law for to protect all the minority.and he needed the jwes becuase they were educaed .in 1948 by the stablishment of state of israel many jwes moved to israel.but since the country was safe the rest staeid there.no yaakov.the other religion did not have problems like jwes.in quran always mantion the jwes are bad.that why we been target by the fanatic moslem.like i did wright for you evry thin was like fires under ashes.i have lot to say.but i need more time

"The only legitimate rule over the Palestinian territories must be in your eyes that of a coalition between Hamas and Islamic Jihad supported by the great Iranian brother" So now you read thoughts? I have a talent of my own. It's called reading the future. let me prove it: I will offer you a liberal position that will end the confluct. And I predict with 100% certainty that you will reject it and offer some lame response full of conspiricy theories that rival those from the Protocols. AZZAM'S POSITION: Israel should annex west bank, gaza, golan, and tranform itself into a western-styled secular democracy for all its citizens irrespective of race, religion, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, etc. DRUM ROLLLL!!!! and now, I will tell the future and with 100% accuracy post your reply before you utter a word. YOUR POSITION (and you correct me if I wrong) Daniel Leopold's response: Sure Azzam, so you and the fanatical facioislamists can take control and slaughter the jews. Israel is for Jews. You can go live in any of the Arab countries.

"The flag of Islam will fly over the British Parliament". Tell us why it is not going to happen to you.? Hint:Remember the Regent st Mosque.

Dutch, I need not be thanked for speaking the truth. I appreciate your support of truth and justice in Palestine and the world. Isn't it funny how these rabid Israeli apologists parade around the Gaza withdrawal as a sign of Israeli good will? Ever since they've pulled out of Gaza, they've been running daily flights over Gaza setting off sonic booms to scare and frighten women, children and everyone else. Odd how they didn't do this when their Jewish Settlers lived there? Israel is on a control trip and it seems only PRESSURE will get them off of it. And people wonder why Palestinian militancy thrives. Signing out from my side of paradise- Ibrahim

"PA corruption is petty compared to the corruption of holding 3.5 million people hostage to the whims of your scummy messianic settlers." Really?...Because I thought that almost half of those 3.5 million were recently released from this corruption by the disengagement from Gaza and removal of those 'scummy messianic settlers'. Well, they'll just love Hamastan

Hope you enjoyed the cup we had a great day. My motives are driven by an inability to take double standards lying down. The last time there was special sction against the Jews things did not go well.

Orquest, You are quite the fool aren't you. NPR just did a story last night on how impossible it is for a Palestinian to run any type of import export business from Gaza. Too much uncertainty as to when Israel opens the Karni crossing to goods and services. At some point, Israel will wake up and understand this control trip they are on is not good for Israel or for world Jewry. Until then, the struggle lives on.

Jeff, You began to sound half way intelligable there. You are indeed correct that Israel has not yet reconciled itself to giving up the vast majority of settlements in the West Bank. This is the core problem. As for Barghouti, the Israelis will certainly release him at some convenient time. His trial and conviction had more to do with raising Israeli moral than justice. It's all politics. Barghouti did not do much different than many Israeli generals and government officials: embrace violence as a way to solve political problems.

The only thing that unites Gaza's and West Bank's Palestinians, is their desire to destroy Israel. Many of the Gazans are Egyptians and West Bankers are Jordanians. Both groups are separated from eachother and seems like they have very little in common. If the two state solution is to succeed, then Gaza should be called West Palestine and West Bank should be called East Palestine.

Palestinians are "terror embracing people" now... That's a funny new twist on the standard Israeli dehumanization campaign of Palestinians. Israeli State Terror exceeds in magnitude anything the Palestinians have ever produced.

Israel is the main cause of the PA failing. However curroption also played a part. How can you expect the PA to get anywhere when Palestinian can't even get get from one village to the next? The occupation had also led to the Palestinian economey being destroyed this helped lead to the PA's downfall.

Media Watch: God help anyone who swollows anything from your book. I think it would make me want to vomit. Dutch

Before the pullout the pals complained about the occupation and wanted the zionists out of Gaza. Well the Zionists left. The occupation is over. But the pals are not satisfied. Now, they want to visit the zionist land. That does'nt make any sense. Israel has full rights to regulate its border with Gaza. It's time the pals start building Gaza.

Fagin could simply not exist without asnti-semitism in the world. He trhives on it and it is what keeps him alive.

your talk of nestorians etc does not hide the vile hatred you have inside you. your insinuations about the fact that persian jews still live in iran is transparent.still up to your tricks. the persians were vile to their jewish community and no detour to nestorians will hide that.check bernard lewis on the jews of islam.

"While the colonization of Gaza has ended, the occupation has not. It will only end when Israel stops controlling all Gaza`s links with the outside world including Rafah." There are no Israeli troops on Gaza-Egypt borde, where Rafah is located. The Rafah crossing is manned by Egyptian troops on Egypt's side, and PA forces on Gaza's side. So Mr. Murray, can you please explain how Israel controls Rafah??? Perhaps, you can quote from the "Elder's of Zion."

I never found it on David Dukes website yet....but stay tuned , all his past ones are from there...or Pat Buchannen...I will look after lunch.

The PA is a dysfunctional pseudo-state, serving only the interests of its leaders, not its people. This will become more and more apparent to its sponsors, as countries in Europe and North America come under pressure to stop continuing giving money to the PA without their achieving some concrete results. Where are the hospitals, roads, schools, community centers? All we hear about is their blaming others. Not good enough. It's time for the PA to start building and stop whining.

Jacob Blues: Are you saying that A.H. is simply stating the obvious? Your assumption is that Israel's actions as occupier are solely a response to the "love of the gun" culture that permeates Palestinian society. It is that assumption that is disengeneous. It completely neglects to mention the aspects of occupation that feed into that culture of the gun. A.H. absolves the PA from nothing but holds them accountable. She simply states how Israel's role as occupier makes their (the PA) attempt no easier.

When it comes to clear and lucid argument, Mr. Northridge's posts are a breath of fresh air. Note that Ibrahim never challenges the arguments. Instead, he always attacks Mr. Northridge's character, i.e. "you're confused" or "you work for APAIC." This is a typical propaganda technique, employed by Ibrahim and other professional propagandists like "Khalid." BTW, Ibrahim works for an Arab propaganda organization in the US.

The palestinian people are doubly occupied by Israel and PA.This is a fact because all here know that PA wishes to control armed factions to please Israel but it had failed because it has been weakened by Israelis for no clear reasons.Mofaz better wipe it out instead of doing so to Islamic Jihad.

you are right gaza is in m.e why the egypt 4 time tried to destroeid state of israel.the roman called it gaza same thing they called israel paletain.so it mean know israel

you still evade the big question.why are you unconcerned about the killings of 26000 civilians in iraq? why are you even discussing the palestinian conflict? what is happening in iraq is much more hideous. are you writing daily to the takrit times? do you protest to the daily baquba? are you in contact with the editor of the basra sun? does the editor of the faluja standard know of your strong feelings? no sullivan i thought not.there are no jews involved.

To all of you justifying the imprisonment of 1.4 million people in Gaza, because "Hamas is not interested in peace" or "until the Palestinians clamp down on terrorists" etc I have this to say to you: Even if one were to assume your security arguments were valid (which is by no means certain) it is illegal, according to internation law, immoral and cruel to keep 1.4 million people locked up without any links to the outside world. Also, why is Israel insisting on having the exports from Gaza go through Kerem Shalom (where Israel can collect duties)? I would love to hear the "security argument" for this. There is something terribly inhumane and cruel about how you justify such an act of collective punishment.

Our friend AMIRA here forgot to mention that this year more PA residents were killed by other PA residents than by Israel...The PA is a terror entity and absolutely nothing else.It is all about death and corruption and evil of all sorts. Worst of all -it does not want to be a letigimate state .It wants to be lawless ,cruel kvetcher.As hard as it is to believe- they have what they want to have.When they will change their goals and want peace they will get it ,only no one I know is holding their breath expecting it to happen any time soon.

Thank you for the background e.m. I was close to some Iranian Jews while I lived in Israel and was introduced to Noo Rouz by them. More Jews of Iran remained in Iran than did Jews in Arab countries after the formation of the state of Israel. Why do you think that was? Did the close relationship between the Jews and the Shah cause resentment toward the Jews on the part of those Persians persecuted by the Shah or his secret police? Was the status of Naji (unclean) of the Shi'ites also extended to Nestorians and Armenians in Isfahan, Tabriz or Shiraz? Would their religious concept of uncleaniness be similar to a non-Jew touching wine making it undrinkable unless the wine is boiled (muvushal)? Why do you think the Jews remained in Iran for so many millenia? Thee is a very large community in Los Angeles of which you may be a part. Were these acts of discrimination against Jews mostly or only from those who were very religious Shi'ites? Did Christians in Iran experience the same thing? I would appreciate a follow up on these questions. Thank you.

Ibrahim: You raise a few important points abou Israel's own scummy system I would like to highlight here. First you mentioned: "Palestinians are MUCH MORE AWARE AND MUCH MORE CYNICAL of the corrupt nature of their leadership THAN THE JEWS OF ISRAEL are of their own government!". How very true and we need to give credit where credit is due. Then you mentioned the DOUBLE SPEAK from Israel's Foreign Minister: "We don't want to continue with air raids and targetted killings. We`ll stop once Abbas starts doing it himself". (Please spare us.) Lastly, you mentioned : "The PA corruption is petty compared to the corruption of holding 3.5 million people hostage to the whims of your scummy messianic settlers". Isn't this the truth ? Sometimes people get so lost talking about petty corruption in the PA they lose sight of the larger scummy picture from the Israelis. Thanks for pointing these things out! Dutch

please show me a nation of peace without corruption.it is part of them cultures.any where you go must pay.and it is a real reason the jews has been survived in islamic countries.yes the jwes used to pay since late 6 century.the occupation always been excuse for nations of peace

Well, fagin, you might be sneering and mendacious, but, god, you do have a sense of humour just a little off centre. I have now been elevated from ignatius to the surname of the founder of the Society of Jesus, Loyola himself. That is a new one on this site. But still blathering on with your pointless comparisons and condoning occupationas God's gift to the Arab world. Along with being an Ignatius Loyola, I am also a bigot and a hypocrite and that is meant to deflect any attention to the truth and fact of Amira Hass. If I have been elevated to St. Ignatius Loyola, God only can conjure up how the sneering fagin would classify her. As for neocons, pleae do not forget to include yourself in that sorry lot.

It's tragic that the Palestinians are incapable of producing a leadership devoted to peace and repudiation of terrorism. If you dismantle the PA, with what would you replace it with? Binational state? LOL Somehow I doubt the free society of Israel wants to combine itself with a terrorism - embracing and terrorism - justifying people.

What has corruption to do occupation ? Corruption is about putting public money into your own or your friends pockets. No people in the world (compared to the population) receive more aid than the Palestinians. Even being occupied it is possible to spend in an accountable way. You don't need to be Amira Hass to know that corruption is high, some terror groups are denouncing it, and Hamas has the reputation not to be corrupt. I believe the international prize Amira Hass received is turning her crazy. Maybe she believes she can get another one by bashing Israel even more.

"However, it still controls Gaza`s links with the outside world, which in effect means controlling its economy and the freedom of movement of its people (which is a basic human right)." Until Israel can feel sure the "the freedom of movement of its people" does not include the freedom of movement of wannabbee murderers their movement will be limited and justifiably so. So who do you think is responsible for seeing that this is so? Does it seem to you that Hamas is interested in free movement, a flowing trade and growing economy more than they are interested in killing Israelis? When that happens Israel can start easing movement restriction and not a moment before.

You complain about Israeli occupation, but you dont even bother to consider why it exists. If there was no threat from Palestinains and other arab nations who want to destroy Israel, there would be no need for settlement buffer zones in the west bank. The overwhelming majority of Israeli people would then demand military withdrawl. It was the attack of arab armies that created this problem, and today the problem is perpetuated by the Hamas funding nations like Iran. I am a Zionist and I would be happy to see a free and independent Palestine that is no longer being used as a forefront for the Arab war against Israel's existence. Stop threatening Israel, then peace and freedom will be yours.

Well I respond to you much more than other Palestinians because of the same reasons you repond to me. I simply repeat what I have said this morning in my posts to you and the questions I have asked andy murray and about your attitude towards Zionists like rabin etc. You dont need to tell me the 1000 reasons why both need a two state solution I am flogging that horse everyday here and trying every marketing techinique I can think of too sell it.It is a circular argument, you cant export olive oil because of the check points problem if Abbas could disarm fatah gangs like he wants would that make it harder for israel to justify so many?If Israel were to offer a settlement freeze would that make the job of abbas easier to disarm fatah gangs and keep hamas on a leash and so make more of the checkpoints come down??? The point is my friend Symbiosis is the key.Without it no one is going anywhere. Another thing Ibrahim. The Palestinians are a small people in this big world. They had big buddies but they are gone. I know your sense of honour and views about your rightful place in the world wont let you, but you must begin to adopt the strategies of the small. it is a lesson we Jews have learned and made it work for us. Some these days have forgotten the lesson and are on a similar course to failure as you guys are. By this I mean to say, trying to use the weapons of the powerful when you are weak will only play into the hands of ones enemies. THE PLACE TO LOOK FOR A PALESTINIAN STATE IS THE SAME PLACE TO LOOK FOR MOST OTHER THINGS, INSIDE ONES SELF.If you cannot control the situation control yourself in it. makes the moves that would make israel not moving impossible as I wish Israel would have the brains to do the other way around via a settlement freeze. That would make Hamas sweat. Disarm Fatah gangs and reform the govt that will make sharon sweat. I know you understand you dont ant to say it public lest you be branded a Zionist stooge and fellow traveler.I know you know much more than you let on.Danite

Howdy Ibrahim; I said that Israel needs to compromise on the Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Especially those which lie on the Palestinian side of the security fence. The ones on the Israeli side will probably be retained. Continuing to incarcerate Palestinians who were tried, convicted, and sentenced for crimes is perfectly legitimate. However, those arrested for "armed resistance" provided that they adhered to the rules of war should be released after a final peace agreement has been signed. That Marwan Barghuoti (Sp?) guy was tried, convicted, and sentenced to no less than five counts of first degree murder. He will never be released until after he dies in an Israeli prison.

Until there is PA disarming of the Arab street (their terrorist gangs don't so much fight each other as macho pose as killers of Israelis), all that will happpen is gradual disengagement. If Palestinians wish to choose co-existence with these gangs, over peaceful co-existence with Israel, there is little choice for Israel in this. There will be appeals for some Israeli help for the PA moderate, but if their position is so weak as this, will anything be enough? Israel will conclude that they are being asked to concede concessions to the good cop, while the bad gang cop grows in strength on the street. Given disengagement is the correct course, for it's own sake, this will continue anyhow. But Israel will decide on a policy which secures it's demographic position within its inner zone and its basic security position in relation to greater Israel/Palestine. It will not be "Israel's" intent to co-exist with a Palestinian state (de facto or otherwise) that is a haven for terrorist groups. The PA has to work to convince it's people that reliance on street gangs to confront Israel, is just more adolescent macho posturing and real progress to statehood requires some maturity. It has to argue work through its media to this effect.

bi-national state isn't going to work. For one thing, there hardly are any Israelis interested in it. Go ahead guys and try to build your state rather than practice terrorism.

Gaza was part of Egypt whether you liked it or not, please explain why no one ever heard of a "Palestinian" before 1948. The plain fact is Palestine NEVER existed as a sovereign nation so how can Israel be occupying it? Just because the Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza keep on demanding a state, it shouldn't mean they should get one. Otherwise the ethnic Arabs in Iran should get their own state and so should the Kurds in Iraq. It doesn't work like that.

Mr. Murray: As a follow Torontonian, you have to realize that Israelis are not living in North America and do not have the peaceful neighbors that we are accustomed to ( and blessed) here in Canada. Perhaps a visit to Israel and the Middle East will give you a more realistic overview of what Israelis go through on a day to day basis. Allan

"but you are too confused to see beyond the offical Israel PR website." Just what is it that you think may emerge from the embers of the occupation you rail about. Your would be nation is 50% wahabi,and you cus the scummy settlers! Democracy is not on the cards for you unless the US makes a clean sweep across the Mid East. Most think it will abandon Iraq as a bad job. Your own leaders and mullahs have done far more damage than any Israelis could ever do. You were sold down the river in 48 by the arab nations and the Pals have been seen as no more than an expendable front line in the battle for a jew free mid east.They were dehumanized before Israel ever got near them.For expecting Israel to solve your own rotten problems you get no sympathy.Truth is King Hussein knew exactly how to deal with the rot that led the Pals and Israel is waking up to it now. Everyone including the Palestinians would have been better off ha dthe PLO been finished off in Lebanon instead of prolonging the agony for another 20 odd years. The harsh occupation will seem like a picnic when the dust settles in Gaza.As Danite says, you'll be blaming the jews for generations.

Reading Amira Hass can be compared to sliding naked on sandpaper. It's definately not fun. Indeed, it can be grating. But the hope is that while sliding, some of the callusness gets rubbed off leaving the opportunity to grow healthy skin. Of course, abuse of this practice results in nothing but a raw and bleeding sore, bringing no healing, only pain. So too, can Amira's comments be used in a similar fashion by those who seek to deny the legitimacy of Israel rather than see it improve as a state.

Danite, I'm not trying to make you look bad. I only respond to your posts more than many others because you can communicate in a more honest and productive way than most. Some of your comrades (not you) have built quite a complicated system of internal rationalization for dehumanizing the people they rule over...it's quite pathetic. I also find Israeli's world views highly destructive and against their own interests. So we are scaring away investment? Yes, true. But Danite, I can't even export Olive Oil out of Ramallah! This is because of the great difficulties involved in getting past Israeli customs. It is becomes very obvious to anyone trying to do import/export that Israel does not want our economoy to succeed. To disagree with a moderate zionist is to spit on them? Not so, friend. This is called healthy dialogue, and I can't have this with 99% of the Israeli apoligists around here. The bottom line is that what Israel does systematically to 3.5 million Palestinians day in and day out for most of the last 38 years IS ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE WORSE THAN ANYTHING WE'VE DONE TO ISRAELIS AND ANYTHING HAMAS HAS DONE TO US. That's the bottom line, friend. In the world of high tech manufacturing, if we are trying to correct production yield problems, we make a pareto chart of all the issues and TACKLE THE BIGGEST ONES FIRST. What is our biggest problem? I think you know.

I say dismantle the PA, better sooner than later and this way we will eliminate this corruption. Let us try the other alternative in a bi-national state and live inside the 'only un-corrupt democracy in the Middle East' Hag Sameh and Happy Eid

Think of what depths the Palestinians Authority might achieve with full sovereignty!!there aren't to many places till they hit bottom.Strip away the largess from ;UNRWA,the European Union and the oil rich countries and the economy would have already(in the short time since Oslo)reached the heady depths of rock bottom.The period from 1967 to the collapse of the Oslo accords was,by any yardstick a golden age for the Palestinians.Some yoke,Some freedom.

Howdy Gaza Boy; The Gaza Strip has been part of Egypt off-and-on throughout recorded history. This goes back at least 4000 years. In fact, Pharoah Rameses II marched his army through there on his way to the battle of Kadesh in southern Syria against the Hittites about 3500 years ago.

Dutch, An international arrest warrant should be issued (if not already) against you for the serious crimes you have committed against common sense.. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that you contribute your irrelevant views to many different forums. The answer in my book is, keep on contributing, you are a great advertisement for the american education system and its failings!!!

I still would like a response if you would like to my questions posed to andy murray about Tod Larsen and the EU. Look my friend you are of course totaly free to believe what you want, if you dont think corruption and hamas are problems in and of themselves, serve as major tools for those who wish to stymie a Palstinian state , and whos resolution would put unstoppable momentum in favour of palestinians for a state thats OKAY with me my friend. You will have to sleep in the bed you make not me. I as do many Zionists favour a two state solution in part because it will allow and force Israel to deal with issues that we feel have been to long swept under the carpet of "its the war with the Arabs",because so many Jews want to "get down to our own buisness" that is why I know Israel will have a bright future after two states comes while that of Palestinine is less clear to the eye. Continue to scare away investment, continue to make donours reticent thats YOUR problem my friend not ours. You say that Hamas can only be defeated politcaly, well I agree in large part with that, and I say to you that the rear gard action against aPalestinians state can also only be defeated politcaly. If youdont wish to act in your intrests again my friend it is you who will pay. I hope for good relations between israel and Palestine Ibrahim, I wish Palestine well, I would hope Israel and the world would render Palestine all relevant and logical assistance, I am not out to "get" you guys on the contrary. But I must be honest and tell you frankly I find the nature of the views experessed by palestinians on a whole range of issues, the way in which you guys understand the world to be in my personal and humble opinion gravely flawed and ultimatly self destructive and self oppressing. I find in general you guys do not think in ways most likely to bring success to yourselves. Of course what I think of your thinking is and should not be any consequence to you ,I just wish the the moderate right wingers would drop certain similar traits and take the final steps towards seeing Israels future without Palestine as better than with it. I say this because itwill take a consensus between centre right and centre left Jewish Zionists to make the final steps needed. Yes the same people who claim have been trying fool the Palestinains for decades are a major peice in the two state puzzle. Try to not spit on Zionists like me in public Ibrahim it makes me look very bad, at least bad mouth Peres like your buddy Azzam does Sarid in private, you are making my job and those who think like me harder. Please keep your self destructive behavior to yourself and let us continue to try to free israel from this ball chain. I continue with my views in spite of yours because ay leastmy beloved Israel will" Free at last ! Free at last ! Great G-d almighty we are Free at last! Thank you Danite

By accusing Israel of being responsible for all the problems of the Palestinians, and for the corruption within the PA, you are not helping your people. Never, never they will build something positive in their lives. I cannot see how a Palestinian state will emerge from such attitudes.

Let's get Israel out of palestinian life. That means also that: - borders are closed for palestinians as well as for israelis - no working in Israel for palestinians either - ...not to mention health care and hospitals... Let's just isolate two peoples from each other and take a look what palestinians are going to do with their life without Israel. Let's see how they manage their education, their health care, infrastructure, society, legal system etc etc... Let me give you few examples: - Palestinian education contains straight racism and hatemongering. That is well known fact. There is no room for peace of any kind. - Palestinian health care relies heavily on Israel's hospitals and systems. Palestinians themselves have managed to do next to nothing to build anything like that. Then they complain that they are watched in border crossings, because they cannot resist the temptation to use also that good thing to their terrorism... that's what I call stupidity. - Palestinians have never paid very much attention to their infrastructure. Yes, they complain about Israel destroying it, but actually they have not buildt it themselves. It is mostly gestures of foreign states, including Israel... - Palestinian society lacks very basic needs to be civilized and developed society. They also don't seem to pay any attention to it - they blame it on Israel, even though they cannot give any relevant and rational connection between developing their society, legal systems etc. and alleged actions of Israel. That's pathetic. Israel would do very much good to just build the fence and leave palestinians into their own misery. There is no way out and no way for peace, because palestinians have never shown any real desire to work towards it. So why waste time on them? Maybe that would finally show them that they are in no way indispensable for the rest of the world. And also that they cannot have any rights without responsibilities and irresponsible actions will have consequenses. Mostly bad ones.

yes indeed west ham there were no universities in the west bank when israel conquered it in 1967. the literacy rates in the palestinian areas were the highest in the arab world.i will not vouch for this fact after the awful andy murray's friend arafat took over. israel is thriving and will continue to do so. happy days.

That of Lebanon and the Kurds in Northern Iraq. Both could be considered under occupation, each supposedly benign. The status of both groups reflect more on the intra-relationships of the groups involved rather than that of those in the upper control.

You must ask the european settlers that spoiled (and murdered most of) the natives to leave these lands that do not belong to them.

As a financial analyst, transparency is key in all things. What's the phrase? Sunlight is the best antisepctic? Amira Hass holds up the dirty linens no doubt. There are real issues that Israel must face. But half a calculation doesn't bring one to an honest answer anymore than bringing in a crib sheet to an exam. Indeed, its not so much that its supposedly "good" when she exposes Palestinian malfeasence and "bad" when she exposes Israeli malfeasence, but that she provide a rigorous analysis in making her critique. It's disengeneous to make comments about the Palestinians problem with the "love of the gun" as she pointed out in a previous op-ed, and yet then complain about Israeli actions seeking to limit the harm from such a culture. It places a fog over her comments for the need of the PA to take responsibility, then absolve them of a lack of any action, because of the Israelis.

1 there were no palestinian universities in 1967 in the west bank or gaza. 2 the west bank has the highest literacy rate in the arab world because of israeli efforts. please do not choke or bluster.

You call Israel the "occupied Palestine", which is a lie. The Israelis are occupying just a small part of their historical homeland. Yes, the PA is corrupt indeed and they are doing business on the "Pals", who were invented for this reason and as a tool against Israel. I WANT to buy ISRAELI FLOWERS and FRUITS, COMPUTERS, CELL PHONES, BOOKS and everything I can. If the "Pals" don't want their flowers and other products withered, they should stop terrorism. Coming to it, where will the "Pals" grow flowers and fruits? They destroyed the greenhouses which a group of Americans gave them.

ignatius sullivan the question still stands why do you not protest the iraq killings when they number 26000 since january 2004 and they dwarf the palestinian issue.your starting point is universal values.so you are a hypocrite? or a bigot? you know very well that neo-cons is a code word for jews.so is your answer that the jews started it?we must be told.

Jeff, Of course if peace talks were fired up again, a "single major terrorist attack against Israel would upset the apple cart". So would continued imprisonment of those who dared defy the cruel occupation forces. So would continued land expropriation to build colonies which anyone with a half brain knows makes the viability of a Palestinian state impossible. There are two sides to every coin...but you are too confused to see beyond the offical Israel PR website.

Danite, Palestinians are in denial about the nature of the PA? I'm afraid you are sadly mistaken. Why do you think Hamas does well at the polls? Why do you think the people voted in Abbas and hoped and prayed that he could reform this failed institution called the PA? The reality, my friend, is that Palestinians are MUCH MORE AWARE AND MUCH MORE CYNICAL of the corrupt nature of their leadership THAN THE JEWS OF ISRAEL are of their own government! The reality, dear Danite, is that the nasty nature of the Israeli occupation makes ALL ISRAELI LEADERS SUSPECT in the eyes of those Palestinians. Today, we have your foreign minister declaring to the world: We don't want to continue with air raids and targetted killings. We'll stop once Abbas starts doing it himself. This is DOUBLE SPEAK at its finest. You must understand how we view these arrogant statements. Sorry, bud, my anger is directed at the Israelis first and foremost because their nastyness and their overwhelming abuse of power makes them the prime stumbling blocks to PROGRESS. It is immensely difficult for me to blame the rise of militancy on the Palestinians I empathise dearly with Abbas who knows full well he can't after militants while the Israelis do what they do. You might want to divorce Israel from the Palestinians because you think we are all screwed up. That's fine by me. I want Israel to divorce from the Palestinians because they are a nasty occupation force with a corruption far greater than anything in the PA. PA corruption is petty compared to the corruption of holding 3.5 million people hostage to the whims of your scummy messianic settlers. That's the fact, bud. Ibrahim

Freddy--- it is so easy to blame the victims of Israel's wrong doings. Yes, Indeed the Palestinian Authority maybe corrupt and want to behave like a government -- and God knows they should have their country too. How can anyone grow and thrive when are trapped in their own towns and villages like prisoners. And who wants to buy flowers and fruit that withers and spoil behind Israeli check point? How can the Palesstinian Authority dig themselves out of this human misery when Israel is constantly cooking the books and stacking the deck against them? Israel needs to get out of Palestinian life before one can even begin to put the Palestinian Authority seriously to any test. Dutch

And the "Pals" could work and go to school in their country. If the checkpoints are that bothering, why do they insist on entering Israel? They can work in Gaza and in Egypt and the same for school. They are so ungrateful. They are making a living and studying in Israel but they don't stop complaining, even though the checkpoints exist to prevent terrorists from committing attacks, who could also murder the "Pals".

The EU cut its aid to the PA a few years ago in half. The EU calls on Abbas to make important reforms and to begin the process of disarming the gangs, views which are echoed by Kofi Annan. All this despite continuing Israeli occuaption.The EU claims these moves will improve the situation of the palestinians now and be a major help towards getting the Palestinians a state sooner rather than later. Now not even you can argue that the UN and the EU are hostile to the Palestinians, can you? Is the EU postion because politicans and civil servants who are jewsih or of Jewsih origin like Mendhelson in Britain working deep within the wood work of the EU trying to shift EU and UN policy in line with Israels like you claim the Jewsih neo cons in the US do. Or maybe even the friends of Palestine have serious reservations and concerns that they feel need to be addressed and all the more reason to help end the occupation. Does the fact they insist on reform despite the occuaption make them complicite in the "Zionist schemes" to divert attention away from the various crimes you claim Israel has in mind to do? According to your views the EU and the UN are now complicite with the Israeli occuaption are they not? Danite

And what now comes from thhe mouth of this one? Israel is to be credited with establishing Palestinian universities and producing the highest literacy rate in the Arab world. Of course if one wishes to go on line and read the websites of either Bir Zeit University or Bethlehem University, which this fagin is referring to one will find quite a different reality. Ask them, not this purveyor of lies and distortions. Then he goes on, as I predicted, with his comparisons citing the number of dead Iraqis since the US neocons waged their messianic redemptive war against WMD that never existed. So I guess fagin the fibber is therefore putting Israel into the same camp as Iraq.

The PA claims it represents Palestinians, collects money and sings agreement. But when it comes to enforce its authority in Gaza, fight corruption, restore the order and honour the agreements, the PA is absent and uses the same strategy ``blame it all on Israel``. Palestinians can not consider the PA as a real government because it does not act like one. Even the U.S. and the E.U. start to look at Hamas as the real authority in Gaza. The PA corruption is caused by dishonesty and selfishness of the Palestinian politicians and as such they have nobody to blame but themselves for their failures.

Israel supplies the "Pals" with water, electricity, healthcare, etc. They now have their own country and government. Cut all the supplies off. It is their government which have to give them everything.

Howdy Avrum; Starting up negotiations again is a good idea, but Israel won't sit down at the table unless the PA reins in the Palestinian militants and the PA won't do much about the militants for fear of starting a civil war. Even if peace negotiations can be fired up again, a single major terrorist attack against Israel would upset the apple cart. Furthermore, the PA would have to be willing to compromise on some of its demands like: the Green Line as the border, the so-called "right of return", and East Jeruselum as the capitol of Palestine. Israel would have to compromise on some Israeli settlements in the West Bank and on the distribution of water resources. And that only scratches the surface of the problems that would have to be addressed before a final agreement can be reached and a State of Palestine realized. Furthermore, extremists on both sides will not like a negotiated settlement because neither side will get everything that they want and will try to sabotage the deal at every step.

Fagin is right. Israel built the ?Pal? universities. Under the ?occupation?, the rate of literacy of the ?Pals? of every age increased to a point unknown in the neighboring countries. The powers were handed over to the PA in 1994. It is no so long ago, so you can find information in many places. I read it in a couple of books but I have also read newspapers on the internet.

You recognise Palestinian terrorist attacks as war crimes, for which you deserve some credit. One common assumption made by many interested observers including yourself is a presumption that a few mindless idiots carry out these terror attacks and that a huge majority of civilians favour the pursuit of negotiations whilst denouncing and preventing the attacks on the Israelis. If only. In the real world the majority of Palestinians favour suicide attacks as a means of achieving their goals. It should not be surprising as there is a particular brand of thought that permeates the Palestinian street. http://www.paktoday.com/harbinger.htm By: Tashbih Sayyed The discord on the form of a Palestinian state has two levels. At the first level there is a conflict on the issue within the Palestinian groups who claim to represent the Palestinians. The most powerful among them, HAMAS, HizboAllah and Islamic Jihad do not just want a Palestine state, they also want a complete elimination of the Jewish presence. And since not just the Palestinian main street, but the entire Arab masses are controlled by the mosques and madrases occupied by Saudi brand of Islam - Wahabiism, spewing venom against every non Wahabi, they have Israel's destruction as an article of their faith.........

And I thought that it was Israel that was sharing its own water with the Palestinians, and they added to their share some extras, actually robbing Israel...

I guess "its the occupation" explains when Tod Larsen the UN envoy to the ME and life long supporter of the Palestinians came to the PA last year to deliver the UNs message for the need to reform their financial practices was threatened by Hamas told by the PA they couldnt guartantee his sucurity and told not to show his face in the PA again. I guess when the message would be deliverd by some one of impacible pro Palestinian credentials it would be impossible to ignore so better spit in the face of one who has helped you all his life. Corruption is endemic to all third world countries whose political culture has not made the change from traditional notions of personal entitelment for those in power to a truly civic understanding of their purpose of power. Tell me Andy the trashing of Larsen was "its the occupation"? You are totaly dishonest and share the pathologies of those you use as weapon against the "Zionists" , you are a part of the problem not the solution.

The world perceives Abbas as responsible for the behavior of the terrorists because he does have the power to fight them. If he is unable to stop them, why should more powers be given to them?

If Abbas cannot prevent the expropiation of land for Jewish roads, at least he could dismantle the terrorist organizations so that Jewish roads would no longer be needed.

Andy Murray`s ONLY interest is with Jews....

I believe the IDF is right when they don?t allow ?Pals? passage. If they had free access, a terrorist could enter and commit an attack. It is right not to allow the children in either. Sometimes the ?Pals? have sent children with explosives or to blow themselves up. Or there may be a shooting and children could be hit.