Goldstone has paved the path for a second Gaza war
Anyone who honored the first Goldstone has to ask him: What exactly do you know today that you didn't know then? Do you know today that criticizing Israel leads to a pressure-and-slander campaign that you can't withstand, you 'self-hating Jew'?
By Gideon LevyAll at once the last doubts have disappeared and the question marks have become exclamation points. Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu Al-Aish wrote a short book in which he invented the killing of his three daughters. The 29 dead from the Al-Simoni family are now vacationing in the Caribbean. The white phosphorus was only the pyrotechnics of a war film. The white-flag wavers who were shot were a mirage in the desert, as were the reports about the killing of hundreds of civilians, including women and children. "Cast lead" has returned to being a phrase in a Hanukkah children's song.
A surprising and unexplained article in The Washington Post by Richard Goldstone caused rejoicing here, a Goldstone party, the likes of which we haven't seen for a long time. In fact, Israeli PR reaped a victory, and for that congratulations are in order. But the questions remain as oppressive as ever, and Goldstone's article didn't answer them - if only it had erased all the fears and suspicions.
Anyone who honored the first Goldstone has to honor him now as well, but still has to ask him: What happened? What exactly do you know today that you didn't know then? Do you know today that criticizing Israel leads to a pressure-and-slander campaign that you can't withstand, you "self-hating Jew"? This you could have known before.
Was it the two reports by Judge Mary McGowan Davis that led to your change of heart? If so, you should read them carefully. In her second report, which was published about a month ago and for some reason received no mention in Israel, the New York judge wrote that nothing indicates that Israel launched an investigation into the people who designed, planned, commanded and supervised Operation Cast Lead. So how do you know which policy lay behind the cases you investigated? And what's this enthusiasm that seized you in light of the investigations by the Israel Defense Forces after your report?
You have to be a particularly sworn lover of Israel, as you say you are, to believe that the IDF, like any other organization, can investigate itself. You have to be a blind lover of Zion to be satisfied with investigations for the sake of investigations that produced no acceptance of responsibility and virtually no trials. Just one soldier is being tried for killing.
But let's put aside the torments and indecision of the no-longer-young Goldstone. Let's also put aside the reports by the human rights organizations. Let's make do with the findings of the IDF itself. According to Military Intelligence, 1,166 Palestinians were killed in the operation, 709 of them terrorists, 162 who may or may not have been armed, 295 bystanders, 80 under the age of 16 and 46 women.
All the other findings described a more serious picture, but let's believe the IDF. Isn't the killing of about 300 civilians, including dozens of women and children, a reason for penetrating national soul-searching? Were all of them killed by mistake? If so, don't 300 different mistakes require conclusions? Is this the behavior of the most moral army in the world? If not, who takes responsibility?
Operation Cast Lead was not a war. The differences in power between the two sides, the science-fiction army versus the barefoot Qassam launchers, doesn't justify things when the blow was so disproportionate. It was a harsh attack against a crowded and helpless civilian population, among which terrorists hid. We can believe that the IDF didn't deliberately kill civilians, we don't have murdering soldiers as in other armies, but neither did the IDF do enough to prevent them from being killed. The fact is, they were killed, and so many of them. Our doctrine of zero casualties has a price.
Goldstone has won again. First he forced the IDF to begin investigating itself and to put together a new ethics code; now he unwittingly has given a green light for Operation Cast Lead 2. Leave him alone. We're talking about our image, not his. Are we pleased with what happened? Are we really proud of Operation Cast Lead?
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But of course, Levy would never acknowledge this, it will always be Israel's fault in his world.
Are we really proud of Operation Cast Lead? you ask in your article.such a tricky [with a patina of innocence] question.If i said yes,i became a fascist,if i said know i became a stupid liar . its not a matter of proud,is a matter of alternatives one have.?and what are your alternatives? . Give more arms to Hams-- Iran-- Hizballa ?? and let the missiles come in ?!!PLEASE LET ME KNOW !!
No. Israel's occupation, land thefts, building of settlements, torture, blockades and other criminal actions Israel commits against the Palestinian people will pave the way for a second Gaza war and a third Gaza war and so on and so on...
"Hamas would respect any peace deal reached between Israel and Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, provided it is approved in a global Palestinian referendum, the top Hamas official in Gaza said Wednesday. In a rare news conference for foreign media, Ismail Haniyeh, the prime minister of Gaza's Hamas government, staked out seemingly pragmatic positions. He said Hamas seeks dialogue with the West and wants to be "part of the solution, not the problem." (2 Dec. 2010)// Hamas had these positions for some years now. Hamas will even agree to peace, if the Palestinians vote for it. This change in Hamas' implacable initial position resulted from world pressure which caused an evolutionary change so as to make Hamas survivable (see Darwin).It can be assumed however that as long as Hamas is shunned by the world, they will remain rejectionists; after all, what else would be left for them? The key is within the Palestinian nation itself. Abbas and Hamas must resolve their differences first and present a unified front to the world. They will be wise to agree to this, even though Israel is trying to prevent it. Unity will strengthen the Palestinian position, and Israel will gain a more reliable peace partner. As long as Israel rejects Hamas, there will be projectiles coming over as a reminder.
Judge Goldstone was attacked by Right and Left. In Israel, even Labor and Meretz shunned him. More recently it was revealed that a Labor MK advised J-Street (US) not to have anything to do with Goldstone in his recent visit to the US. Quite amazing. Now we see that Goldstone is actually a very decent man: He issued his report based on the evidence before him, as law and Jewish Law, require. (Israel refused to cooperate with him.) Now that Israeli investigations, AFTER his report was issued, revealed new evidence, he is willing to declare publicly that such evidence would have changed the old report. Very decent behavior. The problem is that Jews still carry the Ghetto attitudes with them. When the Jewish people is seen as threatened, no dissent is allowed. The fate of B. Spinoza is an example.
to believe that Goldstone didn't have evidence to know that Hamas was deliberately targeting civilians and that they would never investigate claims against them, etc.
Gideon- are we proud of ourselves? Well let's think about it....NO....I for one am not proud that I sat in the middle of the country in coffee shops- in parks- on picnics- and in my back yard watching my kids playing happily , while kids in the South were traumatized by katyushot. NO I am not proud of that. It took hundreds of missiles and years until we finally did more than talk and fought for our own in the South of the country. What other country would wait that long? All the rest of your emotive and almost hypothetically phrased mis-directed questions you should be asking the leaders of the Palestinians in Gaza. They are responsible for what they decided to do in Gaza- and the direction that their leadership took against Israel...and they are responsible for the price their people pay as we defended our citizens. It is not nice Gideon. But apart from getting up and leaving Israel what solutions are you providing?
So many people on these talkbacks are shilling for Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other such groups by making excuses for their actions and whitewashing their racist antisemitic ideologies. What's up with that?
Ah Froy.Whats that you say? There was a ceasefire? You mean that there were virtually no rockets from Gaza from July until November 2009? And Israel firstly went back on it's promise to ease the siege of Gaza and then, on the day of the US Presidential election sent in a couple of tanks and shot eight 'terrorists" - and repeated the compliment a few days later so that the rockets resumed , justifying the 'education' of those 'beasts on two legs' - and their babies. Ah Froy, nobody believes that! The best PR that $15 million can buy ensures that you are baying at the moon. But keep it up! But please keep repeating it
The most moral war ever fought.
I hear that the most "moral" war or the most "moral" army I split my sides with laughter. The USA should completely defund Israel for its crimes in cast lead and the massacre and Jenin and lets not forget the USS Liberty, Not another penny or bullet for Israel!!!!
I think the real issue is whether civilian populations were targeted by the IDF. the answer is an emphatic NO!
People like you belong in the enemy camp where they can express their true loyalties.
Had the author bothered to read Goldstone's op-ed piece he would KNOW what information made Goldstone change his opinion about one part of his report. Justice Goldstone stated: "For example, the most serious attack the Goldstone Report focused on was the killing of some 29 members of the al-Simouni family in their home. The shelling of the home was apparently the consequence of an Israeli commander’s erroneous interpretation of a drone image, and an Israeli officer is under investigation for having ordered the attack."
Oops, erroneous internpretation of a drone map.. resulting in 29 members of one Palestinian family killed. You have to look at the context too. And that was the implementation of the Dahiya Doctrine at minimum risk to Israeli soldiers. What kind of 'moral army' are you if you don't care if civilians get killed and if you deliberately cause civilian suffering as the Dahiya Doctrine demanded? What kind of 'moral army' are you if your commander tells you to take absolutely no riks, so you end up killing Palestinian civilians, who walk towards you with white flags, because you were told: take no risk.
A libel suit is to be filed in NY next week against Richard Goldstone. Whether or not it results in a conviction is unimportant. What is important is to put on record in a manner that Goldstone failed to follow. There is also talk of putting him on trial in July when, and if, he visits Israel at the invitation of Eli Yishai. IMO, I hope he is threatened with that. Use the tactics against Israeli detractors and yes, liars, just like they try to do in certain European countries. Again, the results are unimportant. The presenting of the facts in a legal framework is what is important.
Let’s remind Gideon Levy... that no one is proud of war. And certainly Gideon knows, there’s no moral army on this planet. The only celebrations of war were seen in Khan Younis and Gaza City. Hamas plays the game of asymmetrical warfare... like a maestro conducts an orchestra. Then they hide among the civilian population like rats. And Gideon Levy knows that very well. He get indignant because Palestinians were killed in greater numbers. But has anyone read Gideon Levy’s outrage when 10,000 Qassam rockets fell on Israeli soil. I never heard a peep coming from Mr. Levy then. His sanctimonious morality is something to be marveled at now.
There is absolutely no justification or excuse for Goldstone's retraction. It's bad enough Gazans live under oppressive conditions without the bloodshed that took place in 2008 and then to have this man come along and do what he did is cowardly.
For yet another excellent analysis. By choosing to retreat with his tail between his legs, Richard Goldstone will not succeed in convincing anyone that Israel is not guilty of war crimes, but he has succeeded in ruining his credibility. Who, indeed, will believe that this sudden turn has any validity? Who will be fooled ? The methods of the Israeli government and their zionist lobbies are too well-known. Was that move worth risking your good name, Mr Goldstone?
I can appreciate Goldstone now saying that he was in error in presuming intentionality on Israel's part for those collaterally damaged in the Cast Lead operation, but there was intentional bombing of a society's infrastructure and that, it seems to me, is itself a serious moral stain on Israel. Th whole point of Cast Lead was to punish an entire people for the acts of a few. Should all Israelis be punished for the act of Baruch Goldstein? I don't think so.
It's time NATO was subjected to a Goldstone report.
Considering everything I think that Cast Lead was pretty well handled. The soldiers did go out of their way to minimize civilian casualties by doing things like drop thousands of leaflets saying to the people we are going to bomb this area so get out of town. They used laser guided missiles, there was much greater emphasis put on infantry. The accusations of things like white phosphous .. helicopters use that as a counter measure to anti aircraft missiles. This was a war against arms dumps. For sure mistakes were made nobody is perfect. The problem though is Hamas store their weapons and they fire their missiles from Gaza. If Hamas had gone into the desert and had a shoot out with the IDF there then there would be no civilian casualties but in urban warfare it is inevitable. When your going after guys who dress the same as everybody else, store weapons in schools and mosques, carry out terror attacks from the same place the civilians live then how can you avoid civilian casualties? Israel can either allow Hamas to fire the rockets day in day out and do nothing because we don't want to risk any civilian casualties or do you say we have taken all we can now and enough is enough and carry out a military operation? No matter how accurate you try to be in urban warfare there will always be casualties thats the reality of war. If Hamas stop firing rockets there will be no Cast Lead 2 and if the palestinian grass roots stop supporting Hamas then they won't survive, The other arabs have shown that if there is enough will on the streets leaders can be toppled if the palestinians want there to be at least a chance for peacemaking then they need to start with a revolution of their own and drive out the radicals. No radicals carrying out terror the better chances you have of talks taking place and making progress.
If one accepts the right of Israel to "defend" itself by making general attacks against the Palestinian population, then one accepts the inevitability of civilian casualties. The problem of defending against irregular militia that strike from among the civilians population is not a new one. In fact, the Jews fighting to make Israel in the late 1940's used this technique quite a lot. Every "underground" uses this strategy against an occpying army. It is not common to see tactics such as those used by Israel in reponse to this activity. The Nazis famously wiped out an entire Czech village because they sheltered the assassains of a prominent Nazi. The usual response to what we now call "terrorist attacks" was to develop intelligence of their organization and go after the leaders and arrest them. Widespread killing of civilians does not produce the desired results. The idea is, if the occupiers are going to attack the civilian populace at every opportunity, then the only option for the civilians is to support the "terrorists" as the lesser of two evils.
Levy - if it's anti Israel - then it must be right. Mr Darwish - aah Mr Levy agrees with me, so that makes us right. Ms Durson - I hate Israel and my only complaient against Mr Levy is that he isn't harsh enough. I look around at the madness in the world today . But these 3 are absent from there. Only in this case do they see - even that which is not there to see. As Shakespear said of them. Double, double, toil and trouble Fire burn and cauldron bubble Double, double, toil and trouble Something wicked this way comes. Eye of newt and toe of frog, Wool of bat and tongue of dog, Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting, Lizard's leg and howlet's wing. Double, double, toil and trouble Fire burn and cauldron bubble Double, double, toil and trouble Something wicked this way comes
Are you really proud of Operation Cast Lead? are you?
defend ourselves against arab tribes who are bent on our destruction. They are responsible for their losses!
"we don't have murdering soldiers as in other armies". Much worse: you have murdering leaders who send the soldiers to shoot at anything that moves and bomb anything that might be of any use to the population.
The two big shifts stated and implied in the op-ed were that absence of intentionality to harm civilians, that the military action was acknowedged (by Goldstone) to be a military one, and not an intentionally sadistic one. The next related implication is that the scope of the military action was then an admissable choice of scope given the conditions on the ground, and assertions by Hamas of their intentions and preparations. The Hamas preparations turned out to be untrue. Unlike Iraq in which no weapons of mass destruction after Saddam Hussein denied possessing them, there were no material cashes of weapons (not speaking of WMD's) found in Gaza after Hamas declared that they DID have them. Any exceptions to that mistake remain. And, if Israel had conclusive evidence that Hamas was not prepared to fight at the scale that they claimed, and Israel used that for PR only, then there are severe questions. War is horrible, inevitably and violently disproporationate between an unarmed civilian and any armed. The relationship between an unarmed civilian in a community and a rocket is a disproportionate violent relationship. War crimes are only incrementally more horrible than war itself. The initiation of war was the crime. And, that is BOTH Hamas and IDF fault. From my read of Hamas escalating shelling until Israel invaded, is an indication that Hamas (or cadre) desired that Israel invade, as sick as that sounds. I think it IS that sick, that rage controlled decisions, and not reason.
The IDF Chief Rabbi exhorted the soldiers to fight Amalek. The IDF proudly announced that it copied the Fallujah One battle plan - an unqualified disaster and one that resulted in US courts martial for crimes against civilians. Fallujah II removed civilians first and fed and housed them. Barak spent too much time with Bush and Cheney and never read the "Lessons Learned" documents on Fallujah One. He had the IDF copy every mistake. And Hamas still rules Gaza, just as al Qaida and the Sunni rebels did after Fallujah One..
All sides have attempted to recruit Goldstone for their purposes. Gideon Levy now makes the outlandish cliam that a short Op Ed in the Washington Post can lead to another war. In making this argument he rests his case on all sorts of assumptions about Goldstone and the Jewish community. But surely thisis more about Goldstone's relationship to the legal community? He is a leading internatonal criminal lawyer who has a committment to international justice and the rule of law. All he has said is that on the evidence now produced through many serious investigations one "finding" of his report, namely that Israel intentionally targeted civilians during the Gaza operation was inaccurate. Had Israel cooperated with his inquiry this evidence might well have been available earlier. He also pointed out that despite Israel's attitude to the report - which recommended legal investigations of its findings - Israel has in fact done much of what was required whereas Hamas has done nothing at all. Goldstone's honesty as a lawyer, not his identity as a Jew is what is at stake in this affair.
I hope all you bullies are glad now for destroying this person.
Israel illegally destroys arab air forces on the ground or Israeli pilots drop napalm on Egyptian tanks. 20,000 Egyptian soldiers killed in Sinai, Israel desecrates the Old City by killing Jordanian soldiers in the Old City, Israel illegally occupies Jordanian, Egyptian and Syrian territory. Gideon believe it or not Israel has a right to self defense we don't have to take, take take but say no we have no right to retaliate. In 2005 Israel pulled out of Gaza soldiers & settlers the result was not peace it was Hamas firing thousands of rockets into Israel and eventually we said enough is enough and decided to do something about it and the result was Cast Lead. The original Goldstone report was a sham and even Goldstone himself says if I knew then what I know now my conclusions would be different. The outcome of Goldstone was never going to affect anybodies decision to launch Cast Lead 2 or not, we didn't need Goldstone to change his mind to give us the go ahead. If there is a Cast Lead 2 it will not be because of Goldstone it will because Hamas are firing rockets into Israeli towns and cities. Hamas are the ones who will decide who will decide if there will be a Cast Lead 2 not Goldstone or even Bibi. If Hamas want peace then there will be no Cast Lead 2 but if Hamas want war then they will get it.
But is not! it's 2011!
Those who gleefully embraced the scurillous Goldstone report have much to answer for now. The false liberals are squirming uncomfrotably, the decent folk are asking serious questions. The spineless, guilt-ridden self-hating Jews are distraught. Goldstone's report was just one more disgraceful black scar on the United Nations.
It always is. One war wrapped up and newspapers and politicos are already discussing where the next one will be.
They do not care about other lives. But as very selfish they will take care if their people will suffer the same as Gaza people suffer
but this was 2 years ago, when he wrote his report.
wars are not picnics, and innocents sadly get killed. There cannot be a war in built up areas where innocents will not get killed. The options are: 1) Hamas stop firing missiles at Israeli civilians 2) They agree to a battlefield, eg in the Sinai desert, where they can meet at dawn with the IDF 3) What Levy is implying - was in fact the Olmert policy for many months - ie one sided ceasefire/surrender. Israel absorbs the missiles without responding.
In both case, destructing civilian infrastructures and killing a lot of civilian was made to get Lebanese reject Hezbollah and Gaza reject Hamas. This strategy fails. The crime remains.
Gideon, the USA acts the same way if you have the power you use it. Why do you have a double standard -why dont you criticize the West for punching Kaddafy? Also, you forget (maybe purposely) that the gazans brought it on by intentionally firing missiles into civilian areas in Israel - a violation of int'l law which justifies force to stop it.
Overwhelmingly the Gazans voted for Hamas as did the German people who voted Hitler into power in 1933. The Gazans reaped the whirlwind they sowed. They could make Gaza a paradise if they put their energies to building for peace instead of arming, arming, arming for war.
Beaming with pride in Brooklyn? Or is it Miami? Or is it in some West Bank trailer with the settler scum? By the way, the Germans were proud of what they did to us, in case you forgot.
By making these sorts of comparisons you show that either (1) you are completely ignorant of history and what the Nazis did, or (2) you hate Israel so much that you are willing to stoop to complete outright historical fabrications to try and make your point In either case, you show that you can't be taken seriously.
But who speaks for the unknown casualties? Is their suffering any less? Is their blood not the same color? Who was responsible for the deaths of the Dr's children and these others? No one? Will no one stand up and acknowledge responsibility for the plan and it's implementation?
These so called "self-haters" - do they really hate themselves? Or are they people with dignity daring to criticize those who haven't any... What "self" is it that is referred to?
Was the original accusation understood to mean that the highest level of the Israeli government decided to deliberately inflict significant civilian casualties, in order to make the Gaza population weary of supporting Hamas? And can this high level decision not be inferred simply by looking at the attack? As the article above says, it was not a "war", rather it was exactly what Israel wanted it to be. A lesson. The Gazans were witnesses, not participants. They had no control over any battle.
Hamas practically begged Israel to attack. They egged them on because they thought they could do in Gaza what Hezbollah did in Lebanon in 2006
Am I proud of operation Cast Lead? Of course not. I dearly regret the loss of life - without any qualifications on those lives - resulting from operation Cast Lead. Do I /Did I support operation Cast Lead? Completely. It was necessary and I think the IDF carried it out as efficiently and "cleanly" as possible under the circumstances. I can only conclude that - unlike myself - Gideon Levy has no family living within range of Hamas rockets.
Where you live, you feel fear in case you, your beloved ones, children may get harmed by the rockets. During Cast Lead 300 babies and children were killed from the otherside. Are you proud of this? Every day, Israeli rockets KILL someone in Gaza. shame on you!
I wish to assure the person shaming me that I will absolutely abide by any decaration and implementation of permant cease-fire made by Hamas, and that I will endeavor to see that my country does the same.
There was a ceasefire back in 2008, remember? Only Hamas respected it. Israel refused to comply with its main obligation: to lift the siege, and kept killing Palestinians anyways. Israel's "ceasefires" are not worth the paper they are written on.
There was only an unwritten indirect understanding between the two sides during which time Hamas was arming itself with Iranian weapons smuggled into Gaza. Hamas broke this "cease fire" by trying to build a cross border tunnel into Israel for the purpose of sending terrorists into Israel. The IDF destroyed that tunnel and Hamas retaliated by firing rockets at Israeli civilians. Hamas refused to renew the cease fire and escalated it's missile fire to nearly100 per day. That is what precipitated Cast Lead.
uh, excuse me, I seem to recall that Cast Lead occurred after the ceasefire expired and Hamas chose to start firing rockets into Israel again.
Spot on!
And yesterday, in response to it all - with the extra inputs of Yishai - Goldstone was essencially forced to clarify that to the media! But you ARE right in your assessment of his recent actions, and their reasons, and that what he DID amend has absolutely no basis in the undeniable realities of what took place.