God's promise of land to Jews has deep pull on secular Israelis

What an eternal place you have been granted by the Jehovah of the Bible to be of the linage of Abraham, Issac and Jacob!! Secular ones only need read, study and cherish the Holy Scriptures. Admiring every word you will learn what a special place you hold in G_d's Holy plan. We Christians of the world are praying for you and stand fast to your knowledge that the land is yours forever. You don't need the US, UN, EU, arabs, or any other human group. You have the Creator of heaven and earth on your side who has brought you back to the land of your fathers and you have been established now FOREVER, never to be driven out again!!

"I simply noted" Nooooo. You "simply note" rather frequently. Ben Gurion. Johnboy are two instances that spring to mind. It's not just on anthropology and sociology of religion either, but a number of subjects where you seem to think you are too well qualified to lower yourself to debate. It could be law, history or politics and is simply your method of closing down any dissent. Are you a maoist? As for your assignment [am I now enrolled in your class] I might be persuaded to discuss Dawkins-God Delusion or perhaps Finkelstein's Bible Unearthed, or maybe Bart Ehrman on the N.T, Baruch Halpern on OT[King David], R.E.Friedman on OT[Who wrote the Bible] D Murdock, Suns of God. [highly recommended by the American Anthropological Research Foundation] You could check out Steven Pinker's or Jared Diamonds thoughts on the origins of religion online, they have both been recorded. Both are very good. Was the Pascal Boyer article good for you? I found his hypothesis quite plausible. Let me know which of the above you prefer. At least with me you get a choice. Any further discussion of the aforementioned will however have to wait until I have finished Shlomo Sand's The Invention of the Jewish People.

I simply noted, after you attempted to discuss anthropology in our exchange on religion and Wittgenstein, that I am a social scientist and specialize in anthropology and sociology of religion (along with some related areas regarding methodology), and teach it at the college level. I have a Ph.D. in the area and have spent a great deal of time and effort studying it over a number of years (this is all easily verifiable of course, and I'd be happy to arrange for us to discuss all this this under our real names through another method of communication if you'd like). I don't think it is unusual to mention one's credentials in a discussion bearing directly on those areas. Perhaps you could respond with your own credentials rather than anger at me simply for mentioning my own. I find you clueless regarding social-scientific approaches to religion, but perhaps you could persuade me to continue the discussion with, say, an exchange regarding the anthropologist Clifford Geertz (look him up).

IF people don't believe in God's Promise to Israel,then why do you pray to that jew!?

You have not said a single thing of relevance regarding my initial post. I don't particularly care which 3rd rate 'college' you might be teaching at or your pathetic attempt at name droping. By the way, my real name is James Bond. In any case, a primary school teacher would be less clumsy than to write this bilge: "viewed [religion] as some type of prescientific thinking and then supposedly unmasked as "untrue"" . ...when written in response to this: "In the dim and distant past by the few who were cunning and intelligent, for the many who were neither". When religion in the dim and distant past was by definition *pre scientific* and organized religion at least, was propagated by the literati for the illiterati[meaning almost everyone in early sedentary societies and right up to the middle ages]. This is disputable? Oaf. Simply stating "Wittgenstein done it", without ever actually saying anything about what exactly it was he said or *done*. After all, why should *you* explain anything, Wittgenstein already did it! As if he saved religious belief from the fires of reason [or even unreason] and defeated the arguments of B.Russell, Einstein, R.Dawkins, S.Pinker,[what does Wittgenstein make of Pinkers evidence for human predisposition to belief in the supernatural?] Hume, JS Mill, George Elliot, Twain, Ayer, Van Doren, A Grayling, Pascal Boyer, J Diamond before breakfast, is truly underwhelming. Something more pertinent to this to and fro are your bafflingly grandiose notions of your own value to any discourse. You have resorted to blowing your own trumpet with several posters on here, as an alternative to presenting any argument. I strongly recommend you skip my posts in future. After all, why would you continually waste your time on a simpleton as clueless as I. P.S. A parting thought for your eminence. Why might Wittgenstein have succumbed so wholeheartedly to religious belief after reading a single work by Tolstoy.[boy was he a tough nut to crack]. Written by a genuine anthropologist who has verifiable qualifications far superior to those you would claim. http://artsci.wustl.edu/~pboyer/PBoyerHomeSite/articles/2008BoyerReligionEssay.pdf

What about the Jews who lived in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lybia, Egypt, Sudan, Morocco, Tunisia, Lebanon, Yemen, Russia, Germany, England, Spain, France, Portugal, Saudia Arabia and many more that have been forced out and persecuted. Israel denotes less than 1% of the Middle-East. Is it not unreasonable to state that the Arabs just dont want the Jews? Consequently Israel is not perfect in the slightest, but how about you look at the living conditions of women, gay's and even sects of Muslim namely the druze and bahai who in Muslim nations are persecuted and second-class yet are held in high esteem in Israel. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your 'fragmented, truncated, skewed' information and present it within context and not ignore several FACTS that are a thorn in your side.

I am glad to see that you are elevating your language in order to try and denounce me. FIrstly the Palestinians are Arabs, the Egyptians are Arabs, the Saudis are also Arabs as are the Syrians and Lebanese. Therefore your point is not valid. Secondly the JEWS accepted this plan, and the land was acutally the least mostly arid desert, unlike the portion which was rejected by the Arabs. Thirdly, the Arab nations in fact pressured the Palestinians to leave and you seem to forget about the Arabic Jews approx. 1 million that were forced to flee your g-dlike Arab nations. Furthermore, you state half a million PL's fled, there is no genocide either in that Israel supports the Gaza despite its inherent lack of economic stability due to threats from its Arabic neighbours. there is suppsoedly over 6 million PS' now living in the world. You say that Israel was created at others expense.

The Palestinians come from right where they are now. They are indigenous and not immigrants. When Joshua led the 12 tribes of the Israelites across the river Jordan into Canaan, also known at that time as Palestine, the land was occupied by semite tribes, Hittites, Amorites and Jebusites. The Jebusites built Jerusalem, and occupied it for 100 years after the Israelites entered Canaan. They weren't called Arabs then, and the Israelites weren't called Jews. Those names weren't known yet. There are many notable historians and scholars who maintain the Jebusites are the forebears of the Palestinians. According to the New York University School of Medicine, and the National Academy of Sciences, Middle East Jewish men and Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian men have the same genetic signature, different from any other non-Jews in the world. Some of those same tribes, and the Canaanites also occupied Judea and Samaria.

The Arab refusal to acknowledge the Jewish homeland is not the obstacle to peace. The statement is absurd. In 1993 the PLO recognized the State of Israel. It also declared it recognized UN resolutions 242 and 338, and that the PLO commits to the ME peace process and to peaceful resolution of conflict thru negotiations. It said the PLO renounces terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility to prevent violations and discipline violators. That the Pals must now recognize a "Jewish" State of Israel is ridiculous. It's a gimmick to avoid peace talks. The UN recognizes the State of Israel, so does the US and every country in the world. Why must Pals recognize a "Jewish" State of Israel? The obstacle to peace is Israel?s non-conformity to the international laws it is violating. It is occupying Palestinian territory in violation of UN resolutions and it has built settlements in the West Bank and annexed Jerusalem in violation of the 4th Geneva Convention.

Yes, Roo, I too think anthropologists might have something to say about religion, since I specialize in sociology and anthropology of religion and teach it at the college level. It might interest you to know that Wittgenstein has had an immense influence in some areas of the social sciences as well. I am not going to go on discussing this with you, since your comments show you to be clueless. I can tell you that so far as my own background is concerned I took my first sociology of religion course as an undergraduate from Robert Bellah at U. C. Berkeley and did my graduate work in the social sciences in this and related areas of specialization.

"your type of analysis" Der Zweifler. You have scant insight on "my type of analysis" and are tilting at windmills. Supercilious, and with Wittgenstein by your side. "explaining religion and Judaism to those you consider less informed than yourself". Der Z When I speak of intelligent men and fools I refer to earlier times . Should you know this? Well yes you should if you read just the first few words of my post: "In the dim and distant past". #105 first line Mr Magoo? I do think anthropologists [amongst others] might have something important to say on this subject. I certainly think Jared Diamond's 'anthropological' insights based in large part on his own observations of New Guinean tribes over many years are far more valuable than the musings of a philosopher who became a believer overnight after reading a book by Tolstoy. Leo Strauss, neo con icon, understood what you are incapable of grasping about the historical exploitation of religion by elites. He taught that a wise ruling class must rule the unsophisticated masses by telling them noble lies for their own good. Leaders must use religion to control the masses. He espoused the utility of religious belief yet his own theism was at best ambivalent. He of course drew from the font of Plato. Today religion and the idea of religion [a meme perhaps] is so ingrained into society and inculcated into young children so expertly [children who are so naturally inclined toward a dualistic worldview in any case] that intelligence is no guarantee of immunity from its throes. Karl Marx, [though an atheist, was not unsympathetic towards believers] surely a more *influential*philosopher than Wittgenstein ever was or will be. I concur with his famous comment on religion: "the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people". Re talking down. How ironic that you should be so keen to cast the first stone! You who only engage in pedagogy on here and who only posts to those you deem "simpletons" and yet are unable to digest the first words of my post, should be taken with a giant ladle of salt. Apologist that you are on here. Thanks be to *god* there was no Der Zweifler part 2.

the fact IS rab, your facts are fragmented, truncated, skewed and presented without context, in order to support the benevolent little picture of israel and zionists that you've painted. you erroneously define palestinians as arabs, you omit the fact that the zionists had rejected the partition plan in '48, and were poised to do exactly what they did even before the arab countries moved against them, you omit the fact that half a million palestinians who took their families and fled the impending conflict were preventing by israel from returning to their homes(repeated in '68)... the list goes on, rab. why all the fuss over this tiny piece of land? the land was occupied, rab. by people whose roots go all the way back, just as did those of their sephardic neighbors. even ben gurion recognized their roots, AND their most probable ancestry. the problem IS that israel was created at the expense of those indigenous people. but even with that being said and done, it has occupied what remains of their land, denied them autonomy, and implemented a progrom of systematic oppression, displacement and encroachment with the clear intention of incorporating it within israel's borders. your idyllic perception of israel has never existed, except perhaps in the context of what herzl originally conceptualized. presenting a series of selected and edited highlights of history, completely devoid of context, is meaningless.

"your type of analysis" Der Zweifler. You have scant insight on "my type of analysis" and are tilting at windmills. Supercilious, and with Wittgenstein by your side. "explaining religion and Judaism to those you consider less informed than yourself". Der Z When I speak of intelligent men and fools I refer to earlier times . Should you know this? Well yes you should if you read just the first few words of my post: "In the dim and distant past". #105 first line Mr Magoo? I do think anthropologists [amongst others] might have something important to say on this subject. I certainly think Jared Diamond's 'anthropological' insights based in large part on his own observations of New Guinean tribes over many years are far more valuable than the musings of a philosopher who became a believer overnight after reading a book by Tolstoy. Leo Strauss, neo con icon, understood what you are incapable of grasping about the historical exploitation of religion by elites. He taught that a wise ruling class must rule the unsophisticated masses by telling them noble lies for their own good. Leaders must use religion to control the masses. He espoused the utility of religious belief yet his own theism was at best ambivalent. He of course drew from the font of Plato. Today religion and the idea of religion [a meme perhaps] is so ingrained into society and inculcated into young children so expertly [children who are so naturally inclined toward a dualistic worldview in any case] that intelligence is no guarantee of immunity from its throes. Karl Marx, [though an atheist, was not unsympathetic towards believers] surely a more *influential*philosopher than Wittgenstein ever was or will be. I concur with his famous comment on religion: "the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people". Re talking down. How ironic that you should be so keen to cast the first stone! You who only engage in pedagogy on here and who only posts to those you deem "simpletons" and yet are unable to digest the first words of my post, should be taken with a giant ladle of salt. Apologist that you are on here. Thanks be to *god* there was no Der Zweifler part 2.

Jabotinsky was a very gifted far sighted man.It is only a shame that he died so young.Tel Hai.

Don't you ever blame the arabs and the Moslems for the Hitleristic massmurders and Gas-chambers. Don't be such a liar and propagandist ! NOBODY living arab today is responsible for the Mufti, but a whole lot of today active extreme sionists have had some kind of indirect connections with Jabotinsky...and you know the implications of that, or must I GO OPEN WITH THAT ??

The only way to the true G-d is through his Son Jesus. Now Jesus was rejected by most of the land's inhabitants back then, then he was hanged to die. 3 days later he was resurrected. His nemesis is another angel by the name of satan who is also a g-d and an angel at one time. Anyway this satan guy poked Jesus in the heel by having him hanged to death. Next up would be Jesus putting an end to satan and this world that he rules. When that time comes and it is very soon the only escape would be to have accepted Jesus as the only true savior and follow his path to salvation. So to all you out there whether jews, muslims, or so called christians. You better take a deep hard look of what you're into and what you have become because your g-d satan and you are running out of time. Yes satan is the father of the Lie and he has taken you all for a very very very long ride which is about to end soon.

The UN vote gave back Israel to the Jews to prevent the repeat of the holocaust.NOT GOD! Please stop with all these nonsenses.

Noha you write: "Most Arabs are not actually sons of Ismael we don`t live on this old old stories .yawns. like who really cares what happened 8000 yrs ago we actually don`t want to live in history we are forced into living in it by your Zionist ideas we want free progressed land for all people who live in this area ,Palestinians included ." If you are that enlightened how is it that you have been legislating against Jews for the past 1400 yrs, restricted them and evicted them from your enlightened lands and cultures? so stop preaching your lies and falsehoods. did you not whole heartedly support the Germa death camps for the Jews? who supported the Germans in WWII, was it not the moslem brotherhood, the mufti of Jerusalem, the Iraqis and the Iranians? Know thyself

Those, the settlers, who are building something never been done before, a state after 3000 years, a monument for the strong & eternal soul of Man, G-ds creation, is what the 'beautiful passage' you mentioned on your post; is all about. Those who wants to stop them from creating it are the evil that can't ever be part of that passage. They destroyed what the beautiful hands created in Kush Katif and now they want to destroy the settlements in Jerusalem. Evil exist Esther, otherwise we would have had not to return & rebuild !

There is no such thing as justice. Justice did not create Israel. Israel declared itself into being and has survived by the sword against overwhelming ods three or four different times in the last 60 years. do not think that the Jews in Israel are cowed by the threat of unrelenting bombardment from north, east and west. They will prevail and in the process utterly destroy their foes. Uterly destroy is the working phrase here. It means eradicate from the earth. No living souls will remain in those environs. The best advice i can give the bloodthirsty, greedy, and arrogant Arabs is to speedily evacuate all of their brethren from 30 miles of the borders of Israel, Gaza, Samaria and Judea. Otherwise they will have dry dust in their mouths for ever to come.

The secularism practiced in the Western democracies bears no relation to the secularism we see in Israel. Zionism and secularism are opposites that cannot co-exist. It goes beyond the deal religious groups have with the secular state. It goes into the heart of Zionism, a divine mission to colonize Palestine - with God's blessings or absent of it. For the secularists, the Zionist mission is part of manifest destiny. The religious sect see Zionism as part of God's plan. The two have similar aims and view things similarly but with a different lens. No difference between a orthodox or secular Jew as it relates to questions of war and peace and occupation.

THANK YOU!

Like in Saudi Arabia,Sudan,Iraq Syria,Egypt,Iran,Libya,Rawanda,Lebanon etc where if you say what you feel you get shot bombed or locked up tortured and if lucky executed.There is democracy in Israel but oh so few islamic countrys i hope this changes one day.

promise of land to Jews BS

The Bible says:"The righteous themselves will possess the earth,and they will reside forever upon it."-Psalm 37:29 Stealing Palestinian land doesn't make you righteous.

Actually not only Jews who came from Judah lands you ancestors were one the families that lived there in ancient times but who really care???? , guys that was like 7000 years ago . This is a history overdose for me I will return to 2009 where I am just an Egyptian living in Egypt. God bless you all .

Common sense would tell anyone that a country of 7 million or so Jews would be insane to deliberately start with over one billion muslims .All Jews have ever wanted is to live in a tiny piece of land that they believe rightly or wrongly is their true home.The christian and Islamic world have vast resources and land yet they are hell bent on dnying jews this tiny piece of land .The Jews were more than happy to share but this was never going to happen while people hated Jews and would deny them any respite from the horros they have suffered over the last tw thousand years or more.JUst about every army of the islamic world has been involved in some way or another in attacking Israel why what does it matter to Iran i never saw thenm lift a finger for Sudfan Ethiopea Phillipines Rawanda Congo etcsame as Egypt Syria Saudi Arabia yet they have all wanted to destroy the Jews of Israel.Btw how many people know that Israel is home to many people that have been persecuted Bahai Circasians,Druse,

It is typical to see how people are twisting this story to their own ends.On a final note Jews wanted to live side by side with their brother semites there were Jews in Israel( palestine}since the well before the Roman occupation fact.Jews from Europe came to Israel and bought land which they worked fact Jews cam from Europe where they had been buthcered and the remnants no one wanted they aslo did not want to remain in the countrys where they had been murdered and persecuted en masse fact.Jews from Arab lands were forced from their lands where they had lived since before christianity and Islam fact.Very few countrys have ever stood up for the Jews during times of persecution fact.Jews never stoel land in 48 they were attacked by the regular armies of most arab countrys not one country came to help the Jews of israel fact.Whenever their is the slightest chance of worms coming out to aattack Jews or Israel they spin lies fact Paestine was a sh-thole before the Jews cultivated the land

So if the state of Israel is not based on the "promise" why it has NO BORDERS written on its law.

If the historical reality is simply that "invaders from Europe came and threw them out," perhaps you can explain, for starters, why the "invaders" bothered to pay ten- million pounds to the Palestinian Arab "notable" class to acquire land from them at market prices and why this "subjugated" people offered this land to them at handsome profits (Shindler, A History of Modern Israel, Cambridge University Press, 2008, p. 32). The reality is that you have bought into a narrative with very little connection with historical reality, but it is easier for you to base your understanding on that flawed narrative than take the trouble to learn something about the actual history.

So what you are saying is that Islam and Chrisianity are a sham.

Most Arabs are not actually sons of Ismael we don't live on this old old stories .yawns. like who really cares what happened 8000 yrs ago we actually don't want to live in history we are forced into living in it by your Zionist ideas we want free progressed land for all people who live in this area ,Palestinians included .

Sorry to hear about your dad, but one important fact to his credit needs to be mentioned here. This good man has managed to raise a good person, a good Jew and an open minded human being. I always enjoy reading your posts although I don't always agree with them. May God minimize your father's suffering. May God bless him wether conscience or not.

Before 1948 Middle east was secular and Jews, Christians and Muslims were living in any where they wanted in Egypt Syria Iraq etc Jews from Europe came to middle east running from Nazism and no one discriminated against them.They had their banks their shops and were able to do whatever they wanted to do. But Ashkenazi Jews decided to declare a religious state while this area was looking forward to forget the past, why ? I really don't know it was better for them to live with others than to destroy middle east . Israel destroyed centuries of progress in middle east without a valid reason cause it was easy for Jews to live in middle east in non religious states and a strong secular spirit. Zionists were seculars but they lived for centuries in Europe where racism nationalism etc . Sons of Israel are originally from middle east no doubt about that but they didn't live with us in middle east when we at certain point decided to forget the past.

arabs have 23 homelands and 99.3% of the land of the ex ottoman empire !! want another try at logic potty ??

thank you. very sorry to read about your father. shalom and blessings. cipora

you did not read professor elboim-dror's article carefully enough. as to the sentiments expressed by rav kook, very few could match them. this applies equally to the arabs, the palestinians and to the entire world in general-including many jews, secular or religious. the teaching that there must be thirty six hidden tzadikim is in direct reference to this great flow in humankind. in other words, thirty six is very few, but apparently sufficient for the world to survive. hashem knows his creation.

"goy" simply means "nation" according to the torah. the term has evolved to refer to all those who are non-jewish. the talmud is simply the oral law, as opposed to the written law of the torah. it became necessary to write down the oral law as a result of the babylonian exile and the subsequent roman rule and exile. however, the talmud is considered as sacred. it is a compliment to the torah. all religious people study the talmud. one cannot become a rabbi without so doing. the great rabbi kook, whose words i had quoted, was also a scholar of the torah, as well as of the talmud. it is well recognised by all authoratative rabbinic sources that all those who follow the seven noahadic laws are worthy of the next life.

"Arabs come from Arabia, Jews from Judea but again this is common sense and I speak of something much deeper and real." Sure and Moses married a Midjanite from Sinai, and the great great grandma of David was Ruth from Moab and so on. Once again: At least 85 % of the Palestinians can claim ancestry from the Hebrews that remained in the Holy land whilst the rest were deported into the Diaspora or killed by the Romans. All the evidence is now being displayed. Google "Tsvi Misinai"

The root of the conflict is that there is no reason why they should acknowledge that their homeland ceased to be their homeland when invaders from Europe came and threw them out (or subjugated them). Perhaps the way to overcome this obstacle is for you to acknowledge that this is their homeland too, and that you have no more right there than they do.

If you seriously believe that in your many posts "explaining" religion and Judaism to those you consider less informed than yourself you have succeeded in showing anyone other than yourself to be a complete simpleton, you are mistaken. Wittgenstein, the most influential philosopher of the last century, showed MANY YEARS ago that your type of analysis of religion rests on a conceptual confusion in which it is viewed as some type of prescientific thinking and then supposedly unmasked as "untrue"; that is why Wittgenstein attacked, well before it became fashionable, anthroplogists who viewed religion as primarily some flawed attempt at empirical explanation, which it is not.

Arabs do come from Arabia, but that has nothing to do with the local population in Palestine, who converted from whatever they believed at the time (probably Christianity) to Islam. You can check any competent historian to confirm this. As for "feeling in ones bones", I feel in my bones that this is my home here in the US and I'm quite sure the locals who were driven out in 1948 feel the same way about Palestine. Feelings are nice, but in your case they have no legal standing.

...the divine promise was made to ALL tribes of Israel, NOT exclusively to the tribe of Juda and certainly not exclusively to the followers of Theodor Herzl. WHERE in the scriptures of the Tanakh is it written that the rest of Jacobs seed was excluded ? Where is Herzl mentioned ? Where is it said that seed of Jacob who further down the line would develope Judaism into Christianity and further on into Islam are excluded from the land ? NOWHERE

i am very sorry to hear that your father is so ill. he must be a wonderful man to have such a fine, loving and idealistic daughter. we have always been blessed to have leaders like rabbi kook who teach that we should aim for love of neshama and kodesh. may the coming week not be too difficult for you and for your family. shalom and blessings. cipora

... much of Elboim-Dror's article obliquely negates this beautiful passage that you quoted: "Our intense love of mankind invests the adoration of Israel with surpassing spiritual and terrestrial grandeur. The narrow-minded condemnation of anything un-Jewish as base and corrupt, even beyond the Jewish confines,pollutes the intellect and undermines the...soul." The settlers "greater Israel" negates the fine concept inherent in this passage.

we don't recognise it so why should they, you took it by force and deciept, land theft is punishable by law, and like an outlaw it will catch up to you, good luck with that.

2 billion people nominally believe jesus was the son of god !!! 1.2 billion that muhammed took down dictation from the archangel gabriel!!! 600 million believe in an elephant god ???

The root of this conflict is the Arab refusal to acknowledge the Jewish homeland and is the only obstacle to peace. The sooner we overcome this obstacle the faster peace will follow.

We do not need history, morality, common sense to show us that Israel is the homeland of the Jews all we need to do is take a deep breath and listen to our hearts. Arabs come from Arabia, Jews from Judea but again this is common sense and I speak of something much deeper and real.

Cipora, you wrote a moving post in response to this article. Shavua Tov.

my father to be at peace as he moves these hours from the conscious to the unconscious, surrounded by his loving family at his home, after 10 years since diagnosis of multiple myeloma cancer. Professor Elboim-Dror is probably correct with the assertion, " the pull is unconscious for most but very deep which has an effect on most Israelis". My father, who is basically traditional/secular Jewish (Iraqi born), has felt the curiosity throughout his lifetime to study Jewish history, world history and particularly Middle Eastern history. But the last 20+ years this also included the writings of the Torah. This is not surprising because there does seem to be an overlap of Israel being divinely promised as written in the Torah and the emergence of the nationalistic Zionist roots. But this doesn't necessarily mean that today the Greater Israel concept is of practical relevance as mentioned in Biblical times. In Biblical Israel, only the holy strata spoke Hebrew, unlike today.

I love the way you create a history lie in your mind.. and you believe it... what a genious!!

would G-D choose the iand with no milk & honey to the promised people?perhaps a place like the arab gulf with $ trillions of natural resources would've been a better choice.OR is this just a myth?

prefer to live in the doubtful past, all what you need to do is to have a universal values where every human is treated equally regardless of his,her religion of beliefs . Abraham was not Jew nor Muslim.

In the dim and distant past by the few who were cunning and intelligent, for the many who were neither. Today it is invaluable for Zionists in order to give identity where there is otherwise none. To provide a history, which is otherwise absent. To justify actions which would otherwise be unconscionable. The god who wasn't there, granted license to a people who bear scant relation to the Jews of antiquity, in order that they plunder a land that they never knew, except in folklore! There was no Exodus, thus no torah of Moshe. What is more, Joshua never conquered Canaan in days of yore, old Judah remained faithful to its idolatry throughout the first temple period and there was no great exile after the destruction of the 2nd temple. It is amazing. That a so called intelligent animal such as homo sapiens, never quite managed to leave Africa behind.

Are understood by just about every biblical scholar of any note [save those who emanate from Yeshiva or evangelical seminaries] to be a mixture of documents [as in documentary hypothesis] not edited into final form until the Roman era [as evidenced by Dead Sea Scrolls] and to have been heavily influenced by Zoroastrian religion during the Babylonian post temple period. Writing about camels in the time of Abraham as beasts of burden when they were not as such until 7th century BCE [when much of the torah was written, surprise surprise] or repeatedly using the phrase 'to this day' and Moses speaking of himself as 'the humblest man on earth', Isaac's encounter with Abimelech, king of the Philistines though no Philistines were extant in Canaan until 12thC BCE. Three conflicting stories of the conquering of Jerusalem in Samuel 1, II and Judges. A thousand other clues as to its pastiche nature, among which are doublets of the creation story, the flood etc etc. Anachronistic, yes. Political, yes. Historical? Only about 7th and 8th century Judah and later, and only if read in conjunction with other sources. This discounts most of the bible and places all of its formative events in the category of founding myths, such as are common amongst all kingdoms and nations past and present, without exception.

I am sorry folks, but the Flying Spaghetti Monster promised the land to me first so the rest of you will just have to stand in line.

With Jews, "secular" isn't quite "secular" if they are still self identified as Jews, that makes one rather religious in comparison to others, even if not frum. That in combination with Torah being, coincidentally historically accurate, makes the conclusion simple. By the way, the Ishmaelites of the Srian desert were absorbed and lost as a distinct identity by 1000 c.e. and Southern Arabs are descended from Joktan in Torah.

You have said that before, but it has only a tiny amount of truth. 99% or more of present day Arabs in the Holy Land could not trace their presence there over 100 years.

Cipora, I read your post #24 with true shock and disbelief. If you truely believe these words, Halalujea, praise be to G-d. This post almost refelcts a turn from the talmud to the Torah, man's rules to G-ds law! My observation is that the first, the Torah is the irruefutable law of the one and only G-d, and the later, the talmud is a means for jewish bigots to justify inhumanity to the goy, while wrapping themselves in a false shroud of piety. I truly commend you Cipora for these words, which seem at odds with your past posts. Shalom

Palestinians and Jews have the same origin in many cases. Palestinians descend in many cases from Christian-Jewish converts. Of course, this conventiently forgotten to justify ethnic cleansing Palestinians. I don't think a Lord promised some land to anyone without some kind of condition. I also believe all this world is sacred in a way. I do respect that Jerusalem is sacred to all faiths and so is Mecca for Muslims. We have to have a political solution that shows that respect and compromise fairly.

Sir, Could you please share with me your source regarding Arab descent from Ishmael. Thank you.

Bedouins might be the descendants of Ishmael. as for the rest of the Islamists, who knows? Iranians aren't. Egyptians aren't. Iraqis aren't. Syrians aren't Lebaneese aren't where did the Palestinan arabs come from? They were not indigenous to Palestine in the 19th century nor the early 20th, they were imigrants just like the Jews. at least the Jews have a documented connection via the bible The Cannnites are not of the seed of Abraham, neither are Philistines. that ought to settle the argument about to whom God gave the land.

... gathering-in-the-exiles as an imperative... ... when there are apparently enough of us here already... ... judging by the intensity with which we covet also the land of our neighbors...

So what these people are saying is that some invisible man in the sky promises some land to someone who probably never existed and now we're subjected to never-ending war. Fairy tales can come true.

... that does not always sit well with the facts... ... perhaps she is over-educated, and fails to see the here-and-now... ... Buber would squirm in his grave to learn in which context he has been quoted...

She states: "One can point to Canada and Australia as countries settled by English immigrants, who became Canadian and Australian in their own right". The first settlers in Canada were not English but French! The English came later. Quebec City established by the French over 400 years ago is the oldest city in Canada if not in North America. Even the national anthem of Canada was first written and composed by the French and later translated to English. Please have some respect for Canadians and their history.

im afraid not !! just as every other human addiction is here to stay !

I would admit it but that I think that the propaganda is not good, but harmful and foolish.

Today's decendents of Avraham seem to have forgotten that Isaak and Ishmael behaved like good brothers at Avraham's burial.Why not emulate their example ? David

buddha wasnt a buddhist jesus wasnt a christian mohammed wasnt a muslim karl marx wasnt a communist freud wasnt a psycho-analyst balfour wasnt a zionist !

God remains a loving God of Israel for eternity. God is currently certainly "unhappy" with Israel for not continuing on and fulfilling the Biblical Greater Israel land and spiritual-wise. This eventually be accomplished once the failed attack from Russia,Iran, and Allies fails to budge Israel from the proscribed Jewish Homeland. This will be a super-message to the world that God and neither man nor the United Nations are calling the shots for Israeli policies.

The concept of the so-called "Native American" is a myth. The ancestors of the so-called "Native American" originated in Asia and migrated to what is now known as both the North and South American continents. Immigrants from any of the continents to these same continents was never prohibited by God.

and the roots from which it sprang.

First of all, as an attorney, I make a distinction property law between descendants, "seed" and "heirs" who inherit by testacy. The bible says "seed." Seed is descendants. That includes Ishmael and anyone else that can trace their ancestry to Abraham. As a gentile, my understanding of Judaism is that it requires adherence to the Mosaic Law and a lot of other stuff that comes long after Abraham. If that is the case it seems that technically, Judaism did not yet exist in the time of Abraham so Abraham wasn't even Jewish. Peace. Stephen

For a correct perspective on Jewish history, read: Shlomo Sand's " The invention of the Jewish People". The myth of the old testiment is just a "MYTH" Its time of Jews of concious to speak out, Shlomo DID.

It was lady Sarah that wanted her son to get more attention, therefore forced the good OLD ABRAHAM to exiled Ismael/Mum away. We know that Isaack loved his big brother, and that Abraham was fond of his ELDEST SON, so when did the Angel came down and instruted you in this silly prediction.?

the bible does not confer rights, as some writers here would have it. It is history, and should Israelis continue to place its text as being more valid than the geo-political necessities of today, they will find themselves reliving the scenario that gave us the destruction by the Romans. Until god strikes someone dead, the rules of conflict remain fixed. At this point , Israel is set to disappear , one way or another, and the Bible babblers are going to be held responsible, in retrospect, yet again.

"Well, there is that long standng definition that if your mother was a jew, so are you. Ethnic dilution testified to here?" Actually, my friend, this isn't 100% true. If your mother is Ashkennazi then you ARE considered Jewish by Birthright. However, if your mother was Sephardic, some circles(usually Ashkennazi) will only consider you to be truly Jewish is your Father was also. I believe this notion was imagined by German speaking jews to create a 'social class' amongst ourselves.

To Tony Silver et al - If the Pals converted away from Judaism under pressure from Arabs and Europeans but are really Jews then they must be made to recognise the error of their ways and convert their mosques back into synagogues and stop their heresy. Pushing them into the army would be a good way to start.

Sir, Who needs "children of jews" converted away when we have the genuine article - Jews who stayed Jews? I understand Denmark does not have compulsatory education. They should.

you should know that Palestinians are living there for more than 2 thousand years since the Roman expelled jews from that land. Palestinians of today in fact are the children of jews who remained and converted to Islam and Christianity

A letter was written to philosopher Eric Gutkind in January 1954,a year before Einstein's death said: ?Religions are childish Fairy Tales?. It is mostly false and negative and sets people against each other. It's very sectarian. There is no place for it in modern civilisation. We need minds to be opened and polished and furnished with the great wonderfulness of science and knowledge, not poisoned with the redundant mindless idiotic sewage of horrible ignorant stone age savages

Religion erodes democracy. Religion enflames ethnic tensions. Religion is triumphalistic. Religion encourages war. Religion is a sympton of a brain dysfunction caused by a high degree of survivial anxiety. Religion is pathological. A symbolic attempt by the brain to regulate it's own chemistry (more endorphins please?) but it tolerates all kinds of delusional behavior and rewards the most extreme acting out.

this discussion leaves out facts and reason . israel exists today because of balfour and lloyd george and the balfour declaration. without it ,it would not have come into being 1

The sad thing about this article is that the Jews are still trying to find a common mythic structure to justify their taking over the land.

No israel, No Palestine. One State Solution is the best for all. One Man, One Vote, Equality for all inhabitants. Equal Pay for Equal Work, Equal Water Rights. No Apartheid, No Segregation...A Very True Secular Democracy. Let us call it :?State of Holy Land?.

jews. They live on this land for more than 2 thousand years since the Roman expelled jews from that land. Many remaining jews were converted to Islam and Christianity. So todays Palestinians are the true owners of all that land

I never said old countries don't commit crimes. They commit plenty and they have even less excuse than young countries.

I don't know whether it is an accepted principle in academia to give an opinion on a subject, speaking from both sides of their mouth. While trying to explain why as a secular Jews, we do inhale the Biblical Ethos-such as a Promised Land (and not restricted to this paramount Kodesh Hakodashim, as is in Greek Orthodoxy with the Mount Athos) and our Judaic Journey (as is in the Concept of Christiandom), the good Prof. forget the specificity of the Jewish Civilisation, shared by all the different segments of its People, whether you live in Mogador, Morocco, or in New York,USA. The actual Article misses the opportunity to discuss further accepted "believes" (in the Secular sense), which she only touch upon poorly and she believes to be found in the general educational system. But, the Judaic Ethos , stripped of its values, is week tree which carries toxic leaves.

There is no such thing as a Native American. Nor have Aborigines or Maoris ever existed. Myths like these were concocted by Jewish writers and Directors in Hollywood to make good people believe that Christians were responsible for the murder of Millions of innocent Men, Women and Children throughout the World. Islam is another thing. Mohammed was welcomed in every land he conquered with a "Hello" and a bow. Israel, that Jew land not much larger than a Monopoly board is where you'll find the real killers, responsible for all the World's ills.

Thats why religion targets children once in their minds it becomes reality. Propaganda once believed can be permanent. No one should be labeled any religion at birth we are all the same race! ......PEACE EVER?

This discussion is in the centre of Israel's legitimacy and should not be taken lightly. If Israel should stop being a Jewish country, disconnect itself from Jewishness than there is no ideological justification for its existence. Seculars liking it or not, Israel's strongest argument for it's existence in that piece of land is the Torah. Disconnect Israel and Torah and you have a great problem in justifying why there should be a Jewish country in that region.

Do you mean that the older a nation is the more crimes it will have committed? For example only yesterday after FIFTY years, the Catholic Church in Ireland admitted responsibility for the abuse, sexual and physical of hundreds, probably thousands of children in its care.Or again yesterday, the news that Bush and Blair,having said a prayer to their Christian G-d decided to go into Iraq and murder 100,000 innocent people. Maybe you mean China in Tibet or Russia in Georgia or could it be the Ottoman Empire. I think a bit of continuity might not go amiss.

in fact looking at "israel" also "israel" hates god.

Therefore Ishmael side (Palestinians ARABS) also do have the same right,to Palestine.

and gave America to European Immigrants?

DR:"I am an atheist. I would never call myself a secular Christian." Maybe not DR but I'm willing to bet you still celebrate Christmas and Easter and you're comfortable with the Christian values largely held by the society you live in. If you were an atheist living somewhere in Arabia, you might still celebrate muslim holy days and feel comfortable with the Muslim values under which you were raised. Atheists cannot operate in a vaccuum, they are still affected by the societies the live in, particularly when it comes to values. Why would secular Israelis be any different?

It is amazing to see such utter rubbish espoused about the origins of Jews. Contrary to one of the best canards of the Fakenstine mythology, there is genetic evidence (not that any of these friends of Fakenstine would ever look for it), of DNA genome of modern Jews which unequivocally points to the Semitic origin. This Khazar tripe is the genetic equivalent to the Elders of the Protocols of Zion.

Everything you said was correct.However you assume "Arabs" are from the line of Ishmeal and this is only partly so. After each conquest of the Holy Land the indiginous people were force to convert to the victors religion. God gave nothing to "Jews" as there was no "Jewish " religion until much later in history. The covenant was made with the seed of Jacob with no mention of any specific religion. Many Palestinians are of the seed of Jacob and therefore have a biblical right to share in the inheritance. Jews are NOT of questionable origin. I agree with you BUT you assume Israeli Jews are decendants of the ancient Israelites when in fact most jews in Israel are decendants of the Khazers, An asien turk race who converted to Judaism beginning in the 6th century. Everyone who calls themselves "Jew" doesn't have a biblical right to the land unless they are of the seed of Jacob. The ONLY qualification, according to scripture is issuance from the seed of Jacob.Most Israelis do not qualify.

Sir, All imports, being foreign, do have this not-real/surreal/delusional quality. Due to critical lack of imagination, the Europeans, fresh from successful descent from tree branches and entering historical times, imported Gott from far away foreign civilization. For some quirk they elected the Gott approximation as presented by Jewish man killed by Romans. You are right - you should stop to retain delusions.

As Bob Dylan pointed out, every country likes to think it has God on its side. The British Empire thought God had chosen it to rule the world. Many Americans now think of themslves as God's own country. And even the Nazis had God with Us on their belt buckles. Jews have just managed to retain the delusion longer than most.

In his recent book, A. Barr proposes the concept of the Magic Loop which expalins in a graphical way the Jewish experience and brings to light various aspects discussed in this article.

secular zionism and religious zionism have the same origine, namely judaism, as it represents the jewish nation. this zionism is attached to the land as well as to jewish values derived from the torah. much of how jews live their daily lives is directly infuenced by the torah. even the most secular, including the atheists are influenced by the torah in their daily lives. the national obsession with shalit is inspired by the jewish values derived from the torah and the talmud.

That is so unfair...:)

are inherently conflicting goals. You're a professional educator and should know that -- You can't play it both ways...

I am an atheist. I would never call myself a secular Christian. A "Secular jew" that believes in the writings of the Torah and Israel ancient roots but not in an upper being is straining the meaning of the word secular.

Spinoza was the only real "secular Jew", and he was excommunicated. The article points to real problems but too much relies on suppositions, and on supposedly admitted truths. It is really an "education" intent. If it were so easy as educators seem to think, all the world would be different. Israel is only a pure example, a good sample, purified from pseudo-liberal impurities.

who have always said that zionism is NOT judaism and it's not a religious movement, but nationalist one... and that its reference to "jewish" and "jews" in its aims for a "jewish homeland" was in reference to lineage/heritage, and not necessarily religion. and for this observation, we've been labeled racists, anti-semites, anti-israel, et al. your clarification is deeply appreciated. p.s.- and i sincerely hope that your defining of zionism in this article doesn't earn you the label "a self-hating jew" by the same bunch.

There is nowhere written in the Torah that the land was exclusively given to (a) The tribe of Juda (b) the followers of Theodor Herzl. The Palestinians who rightfully can claim descent both to Abraham AND to Jacob,have the very same right to the land as the present day members of the tribe of Juda. I suggest that both Jews and Palestinians start to accept these facts.

That's a question you'll need to ask the Arabs.The Jews in Arab lands had 3rd class status,they suffered pogroms and ethnic cleansing,20%of Israel is Arab so stop whining.Even when the Jews of Gaza were disspossed they had to dig up the graves of their dead

Nations are like people. With age and experience, they grow up and mature. Britain is a hugely old country that has seen empires rise and fall, including its own. It's self-confident because it once ruled the world, but also rather bitter and liable to criticise itself, because it lost it all. America is a mature country at the height of its self-confidence, though that may change as it loses world domination. Israel likes to believe its an old country, drawing on largely fictitious foundation myths, but in fact it's a very young country,a creation of the 20th century. Like a lot of teenagers it's insecure, impulsive, aggressive, confused about it wants to be, while also energetic and capable of much if it sorts itself out. The belief that Israel is a three thousand year old continuum is dangerous because it masks this reality even to Israel itself.

A professor of education at a credible institution should not be writing such shallow nonsense which conveniently ignores the existence of half of the population of "Greater Israel".

"Israel" people and cities mentioned in Torah contemporary to 18/19 Dynasties (Egyptian inscriptions). Torah is substantially historical document. Documented presence of Jews and their sovereign states in the area does serve as a basis for claiming historical rights. The argument that Arab residents of Judea and Samaria have historical rights by virtue of supposed descendancy from Jews peculiarly enforce the validity of historic Jewish possession of Land of Israel. While Arab residents of Judea and Samaria have no historical rights whatsoever, they still do have rights conferred by the simple fact of the residency. They could become a part of a neighboring state but considering their documented intention to annihilate the neighbor apparently preclude their incorporation. On practical grounds they should be isolated into special state entity.

The messianic message does not impact secular israelis only but also most of the secular diaspora jews.

No 5 iagree with you.you got it right it's a pity the very Dear professor didn't. Shabbat Shalom from israel

Secular you may be; but you have to admit that ancient fairy tales do make good propaganda for Israeli grabniks, gun-toting zionists, lying Prime Ministers, and foreign Presidents overomce by their own naive constituencies who can't tell the difference between an adherent of Judiasm and a zionist.

See the BIG PICTURE folks: ALL Israel, "greater" included, takes a "HUGE" 1/10th of 1% (GOT IT, one tenth of one percent) of the Middle East. MOST of historic Palestine is in the state now called JORDAN, NOT in Israel. Jews are NATIVE to Israel and have been living there and elsewhere in the Middle East CONTINUALLY for MILLENNIA. Both Jews and Arabs can be fond WORLDWIDE by now, but Arabs have 21 states they call their own while Jews claim ONE that is TINY. All non-Jewish Palestinians call themselves Arab or Arabian. If all nations & other differences drop from earth AT ONCE - FINE! But STOP making your TEST CASES on the one tiny nation of the Jews, even though they DO inspire YET CONTRADICT gigantically followed Christianity and Islam - which is OBVIOUSLY the ROOT cause of Jew-hate, religious, secular, old, new, and even by some Jews themselves, whether you can admit it or not. Stop being sheep victims of oil lobbies and math odds for mass Jew-hate. Try to think for yourselves!

El wrote " no Israeli--whether settler or not--will ever accept to give back to the Palestinians the land they now occupied" Do you believe that Arabs & Muslims will ever give up this lands for the zoinists..

The mental health of the Jewish population of Israel must cause medical authorities great worries. At least the Arab Israelis have no secular-religious schizophrenia. They know they are now second-class citizens in the land they and their ancestors lived in for centuries, and that God has nothing to do with it.

GOD is the most merciful, the most compassionate, how could such God discriminate? Stop justifying your land theft in the name of GOD. God will not accept it and the Palestinian will not accept it.

"It`s OK to kill the non-believers or throw them out, men, women and children?" You need not search diligently to find in the scriptures a basis for whatever you want to preach. Deuteronomy is especially good if you want to wipe out everyone but Israelites. The prophers, on the other hand, are good it you want to oppose such stuff. Moses says not to spare anyone. Micah asks: what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, love kindness, and walk huymbly with your God Basically, Torah is pro-nationalistic Israel. Advocates tribal warfare, destruction of the enemy. The prophets warn Israel not to desert the ethic principles of the faith.

It's a conundrum, I know, but the anecodote about Napoleon passing through a Polish village where Jews were mourning the loss of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 C.E. He said a people that continues to recall the destruction of something that occured that long ago in a place so far away will eventually return to their homeland. We are not "the first Europeans", we are the original Israelites aka Hebrews, the descendents of our Forefather Abraham. For some reason the some European Jews, the ones who mourned Jerusalem secularized the idea calling it Zionism. Heck, when Herzl offered Uganda, the Russian Zionists said . . . Eretz Zion Yerushalayim, even the secularists, and, there Russian Jewish secularists back in those days too. As they say in Yiddish "Tout ca change tous de la meme chose".

mona it must have been lord balfour who ingested the mushrooms !!!!

"the palestinians happen to be both but the jews are of very questionable lineage" Interesting! Are you saying that 2000 years in the dispersion has so mixed the descendents of Abraham ethnically that there is some questioin as to their legitimacy? Well, there is that long standng definition that if your mother was a jew, so are you. Ethnic dilution testified to here? And there are all those mercenaries imported through aliyah. Interesting.

"Thus, no Israeli--whether settler or not--will ever accept to give back to the Palestinians the land they now occupied. " There are quite a few who are willing to share it in the form of two states and even some in the form of one state. The children of Ishmael are also the children of Abraham.

jews were persecuted allmost everywhere be it in cristian europe or the muslim world, so when the european nationalistic ideologies of the 18-19th century woke up some jews they started to look for a solution to their problem, some chose assimilation and some found conversion as good and natural solution (hertzel was one of them for a while) and some, seeing that Palestine, their historical homeland, was not densly populated, chose the zionist (mostly secular) solution and that is where it all started. So now we are stuck with it as there is no solution for some 6 million israelis elsewhere.

..."Tsvi Misinai" and/or "the engagement". You will be surprised once you see that your childhood belief is slowly being shattered

If I understood correctly, the author is for having open discussion on these things replace indoctrination. Are there any still left who are able to conduct a dialogue like that in the schools? After all the teachers themselves are products of the same indoctrination.

The biggest problem now, as I see it, is the settlements in the West Bank. I believe they were a historical mistake, but we have waited too long. Again - history moves fast. One generation, to be exact, is enough to warrant a whole new perspective on political affairs. Many young settlers are not settlers anymore - they were born where they live, they have not chosen to live there. As a left-wing Israeli, I believe removing them might be necessary for making a lasting peace with the Palestinians. However, forcibly evicting them from their homes will still be a crime against them, whether they believe they have a divine right to the place, a historic right, or never give it a thought at all.

However, what the writer has failed to mention is a much more important truth: It is not 1948 anymore. History has taken its irreversible course. The majority of Israelis (70%) are Israeli-born. Most of them are not preoccupied with either divine or historic rights. They just get on with their lives. They were born here, more often than not to parents who are Israeli-born or of mixed origins, speak Hebrew as their native language, and feel Israeli in the exact same manner an American, Australian, Canadian or Argentinean feel members of their respective nationalities. AND, they speak their own unique language, which is the ONLY language indigenous to the land. This is more than can be said for all those other nationalities, born of colonialists from a colonising country.

There is nowhere written that the land was exclusively given to (a) The tribe of Juda (b) the followers of Theodor Herzl. The Palestinians who rightfully can claim descent both to Abraham AND to Jacob,have the very same right to the land as the present day members of the tribe of Juda. I suggest that both Jews and Palestinians start to accept these facts.

Secular Israelis identify with divine promise of the land to Jews?! Baloney! Sorry, there is not one secular Israeli I know who "identifies" with this. Now, there are people who CALL themselves secular and lead a mostly secular life. But they are not truly secular. They might keep kashrut, fast on Yom Kippur and listen to what this or that rabbi has to say. Those might be the people the writer is talking about. They are nowhere near secular in my book. The ONLY right we true seculars believe in is the historic right for the self-determination of our people in our ancestral homeland, from which we were forcibly exiled and never accepted elsewhere. This reflects original secular Zionist thought. The STATE of Israel has NEVER, EVER, claimed a divine right to the land, starting with the declaration of independence and right up to these days.

"it was promised, but never given yet" Wrong! It was promised not to Isaac, but to Abraham and his descendents forever. That includes Ishmael and his descendents. as well as Isaac. And the descendents of Ishmael have possessed the Promised Land for many centuries. So the promise was fulfilled long ago. Unfortunately the desccendents of Isaac want to grab it all for themselves. They have failed for 2595 years now. But they insist upon trying again, and again, and again, and again, and............

"Israel" is one of the names of G-d, just as it is the name of the people and of the land. Jewish morality requires that ownership of the land be merited. Although many of us are secular, we recognise that our morality derives from Torah. H'Rav Kook taught that love of Israel cannot be divorced from love of mankind: "Our intense love of mankind invests the adoration of Israel with surpassing spiritual and terrestrial grandeur. The narrow-minded condemnation of anything un-Jewish as base and corrupt, even beyond the Jewish confines,pollutes the intellect and undermines the...soul." Hence, even when we are forced to wage war, we are commanded to be merciful to our enemies. We are also commanded to seek peace. Our belief that each life is as much as the entire world is the real meaning of this commandment.

The promise of the land was made to Abraham and to his seed forever. That seed includes Ishmael and his descendents. The Promise of the land has been fulfilled for centuries now! To assume that Ishmael and his descendents are excluded from that promise is reading into the scripture what is not written there. Political interprestation of the scriptures has always been Israels' greatest weakness. Israel's Great Apostasy occured when she threw out the Lord as the Suzerain of Israel, installed a human king in his place, and re-wrote the covenant to suit their political ambitions. The Lord Himself noted it to Samuel: "They have rejected me from being King over them." {I Samuel 8:7). So it was written; so it was done; so it has been ever since.

They are Khazer converts to judaism beginning in the 6th century. They are not decended from Jacob(Israel). The palestinians on the other hand are of the blood of Jacob having been forced to convert to Christianity and Islam during the various wars.

--Continued. After a century of pursuing this glaringly illogical outlook, which among other things has brought about hundreds of thousands of Israeli born Jews to move to other countries, those 'at home' are realizing the inconsistency of it all. On some visceral level, the Palestinians might recognize this too. Claiming the Torah as a basis for your seizing someone else's land, while disobeying all the Torah's other laws is patently absurd. It's the proverbial wanting and eating one's own cake. It could be the world is losing patience with this. Surely many in Israel already have. Perhaps straightening things out is in order.

Most Jews are not Semites and, therefore, not genetic descendants of Abraham. Most Palestinians are Semites and, therefore, descendants of Abraham. The land goes to the Palestinians.

A hundred or so years ago, irreligious--even anti-religious forces--seized upon a nationalist notion that since the assimilation of haskala/ reform, etc. wasn't working (i.e., the gentiles were still not accepting Jews, something BTW foretold in the Torah), they would set up a "Jewish National Home" where assimilated Jews could pursue their merry way without pogroms and discrimination by the non-Jewish world. Underlying problems and inconsistencies with this ideology were dismissed/ignored and minimized by the leaders of the movement. Including the fact that atheists could actually claim the Torah as the basis for their "property rights" to the Land of Israel. With the passage of time, the sense of contradiction sharpened: claiming that the Torah is true only with regard to the land, but not for anything else. It is truly illogical. The only claim left was military conquest, something most Israeli leaders--for obvious reasons--have not wanted to use as justification. --continued.

thee the land of thy sojournings" Great, and since Palestinians and Jews are from his seed (and genetic research prooves that Palestinians and Saphartic Jews are one) the Holy Land belongs to all......time for a binational state with equality and justice for all without regard to religion.

After 3K+ years since Abraham, and while modern technology can identify seeds, let's agree that this land belongs to these seeds. One has only to dig in anciant graves and identify the DNA pattern of these seeds and compare them to Palestinian and Jewish seeds. I am afraid that substentiation will put a big burden on Israeli Jews, since most Palestinians are Jewish converts to Christianity and Islam. On the other hand, many Jews are converts to Judaism. Using this argument after 3K+ years without substentiation is a waste of time.

The Arabs understand our rights to this land better than we do. That is why there will never be peace. This battle goes back thousands of years from when Abraham tossed Yishmael out of his home. Ever since then his children have been trying to get back in. This is not something the US and rest of the world will ever understand and something the Arab nations know better then us and the reason why any type of Peace process will never succeed.

This is from 2 years ago: An Israel Democratic Institute (IDI) demographic survey finds religious growth and secular decline - but most significant is that the proportion of religious in the public is highest among the youth. The percentage of Jews describing themselves as secular has dropped sharply over the past 30 years, while the religious and traditional proportions have risen. The annual survey finds that the secular public comprises only 20% of the Israeli population - compared to 41%, more than twice as much, in 1974. Nearly half the population, 47%, describes itself as traditional, while the hareidi-religious and religious together comprise 33% of the public. The numbers were compiled based on a survey of representative sampling of 1,016 Israelis Jews... http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124345

I never set foot in a Synagogue after my Bar Mitzvah in a Reform Long Island Synagogue. Then I discovered my roots as part of the Jewish nation while studying at MIT. Eventually, I immigrated to Israel with the belief that this is our national homeland given to us and defended by us against colonial empires. The proudest day of my life was my graduation from officer training school in the IDF. I returned to attend Synagogue as my children prepared for their Bat and Bar Mitzvot and remain in awe of the quotation cited. Its mystical power somehow transcends my complete lack of religious devotion. Rachel Elboim-Dror has astutely captured this paradox. Kol Hacavod!

I guess "G_d" is where you find him... even for people who aren't observant, you can convince them "G_d" owes them something. All I see is a bunch of bloated Western white guys handing Israel money and weapons hand over fist, indulging all of Israel's whims, using Israel as a tool and an excuse to brutalize and destabilize the Mideast, as well as using it as an oversized money-laundering scheme. I guess that makes them "G_d".

It's the "palestinians" who have a confused lineage not the Jews. Jews have not altered 1 letter in the torah while there is over 2500 variations of the new testiment. Not to mention the bi-polar schitzophrenic Koran, where even brothers cant agree on what their self proclaimed prophet has to say, consequently they slaughter eachother due to the Koran being vague and inacurate. Both the new testiment and the koran are man made books while the Torah is divinely inspired. Let's see ummmmmmm. Who was it that God gave the Torah to? Oh right. The Jews.

The lady exaggerates; I am secular and it seems to me that many others like me are not affected by ancient fairy tales.

The problem with this is that it allows people who "believe" to overcome their humanity, and turn a blind eye to injustice. What then does their "religion" have to say? It's OK to kill the non-believers or throw them out, men, women and children?

to torah: its very clear that you know nothing of the JEWISH history.let me fill it in for you.Abraham was the father of Ishmeal and Isaiaac. Ishmeal was the son of hagar the egyptian servant and so he would not be the inheriter of a mans inhertiance because only the free born son would receive an inhertiance from his father.God said plainly that the blessing would go to Isaiaac which was all that Abraham had been given by the LORD.Jacob the son of Isaiaac went down into the land of egypt for 430 years and MOSES led the twelve tribes of Israel out of Egypt and nowhere can you even find one reference that Ishmeal was mentioned as a family member. you read everyone if Israels sons mentioned.the land was split between the twelve tribes of Israel.and by the way the palistians are arabs and not Jews ,they are not a nationality at all.they are arabs and not a nationality.you said the Jews are of questionable orgin? just read the bible and you'll see they have the pedigree of princes and king

We understand the intent of Rachel Elboim-Dror Every Israeli is determined to achieve Greater Israel Everywhere! Right. Wrong.

unwittingly or not has revealed the most insightful truth about Israel as a society. Whether religious or secular Jews--whatever secular means--the inner core of the Jewish people, the thing they ALL believe in is that the land is theirs, period. What the good professor failed to do was to take her article to the end of its logical conclusion: There is NO way that Israelis will ever give up the land that "god" gave them. No way. One wonders if she saw the logic of her thoughts and pulled back afraid of the consequences. Thus, no Israeli--whether settler or not--will ever accept to give back to the Palestinians the land they now occupied. This article is by far the most succinct on the whole Jewish mentality. Thank you, professor.

She seemed to be against the belief that G-d granted the Jews Israel, but then advocates a Jewish education to instill national solidarity. Yes, the education system stinks and the kids learn no Jewish history. They don't feel connected to the land because they don't know their own history. We don't need soldiers teaching the kids. Make the teachers do it. Learn and be proud of our history, our people, & our land.

I'm sure there were mushrooms growing in the Middle East during during the lifetime of Abraham. You know, the hallucination causing mushrooms that someone in Israel ingested recently? Can anyone prove the scriptures were not written by someone 'flying high' on such mushrooms?

in one place g-d promises the land to 'abraham's seed' in another 'the children of israel (jacob)' which the palestinians happen to be both but the jews are of very questionable lineage

god might have promised jews the land, but man took it by force, god will punish those that kill in his name so says a priest i know,how would have god given jews the land anyway?, anyone?.