Gideon Levy / Let's face the facts, Israel is a semi-theocracy

Straight up, I detest the Orthodox and I agree that its stranglehold on all things Jewish in Israel is an ever growing threat and offense. Ok. But that's not what you're saying here. If you hate Jewish practice and tradition and history so much, why bother? You're apoplectic because people tend to reflexive treat s'forim with a moment of symbolic respect? Give me a break. We here in the US treat our sacred texts with respect, too. You seem to be equating all Jewish practice with Orthodoxy. That's a shame. Some non-Orthodox streams are much more palatable and attractive and frankly with a little understanding of Judaism's actual history (not the fictionalized version of the Orthodox) more authentic to boot.

Finally I see someone you thinks like me. The point of the article, I believe, is not why are Israelis religious, is Why should all the Israelis act out like religious. I mean, to have a life according to religious parameters that more the 40 % of the poeple do not feel, is not liberty. Why should I marry with a Jewish or subordinate myself to releigious customs If i'am not a believer? Why should State forbide people to work on saturday if not everybody has to go to the Sinagoga or similar? Of course, there is not the unic country, Spain also does the same in some way. Sunday is festive, Christmas off work and studies, etc etc. The point and the danger is when is a diverse country, the State is religious, in that case, it can't represent all its inhabitants, I think. Thanks.

Many of the respondents seem to miss the point. It is not the various and many religious practices of the Israelis that makes Israel a semi theocracy .. it is the actual power of the rabbis over the actual lives of the Israelis that makes it so. Having a mezuza or keeping shabbat or fasting on Yom Kippur does not amount to a semi-theocracy ... allowing rabbis to say who can and cannot marry, letting rabbis determine the country's foreign policy, letting rabbis exempt thousands of the youth from military service when the nation is at war etc etc etc ...THIS amounts to semi-theocracy. The CHOICE of the people to observe religious practices is called democracy ... the COMPELLING of the people to observe religious practices is called theocracy. A secular Israel will allow the free choice in these matters of religion ... a religious Israel will not allow a free choice. Secular is better.

Be patient you citizens of Israel. When your messiah Jesus, son of David returns, the whole earth will be living under a theocracy. How wonderful that will be.

No, Israel is NOT like Poland. We have civil marriages and divorces, births and funerals, we have public transport and shops open on Sundays (which is our holiday), there are no religious rules about food in retaurants and hotels. And we have a consitution - which Israel cannot have because of the opposition of the rabbis. What is more, the fact whether somebody is recognised as a Pole has nothing with their religion -we do not have "second class" citizens, who are discriminated becasue of relgious principles - like some of immigrants in Israel who cannot even marry legally in the country because they are not "kosher". Face it - this IS shocking!

Mr. Levy: Please take a walk around any European town these days (Christmas atmosphere...) and you will have to revise your categories on secularism and theocracy in Europe AND Israel.

The Law of Return defines who is a Jew according to halacha, but extends the rights of Israeli citizenship to children and spouses of Jews (even if they are not Jewish according to Jewish law) as well as grandchildren, as long as they did not choose to practice another religion (like "Brother" Daniel did). The parameters of who is entitled to Israeli citizenship is a response to the racist Nazi Nuremberg Laws to defend against anti-Semitism. Israel is a refuge for the Jews and the descendants of Jews regardless of "halachic" status, but theocratic currents run strong in Israel, which creates complications for the Israelis who are not halachically "Jewish," and then there is the divide between religious and secular and then there is the divide between dati leumi and charedi, let alone "progressive judaism" etc. who is going to sit on the sanhedrin and what nusach will we use in the beis hamikdash? what about electricity?

But Israel is a sober country too. Just a good solid realism that has less to do with religion and more to do with practicality.

Gideon, you have to realize that each one of us had to deal with the unknown during our life time. Issues such as life and death bring the need for control. The only way that one can't reject control is when it comes from the unknown with a stamp of approval by people that are considered to be knowledgeable. This helped man's creation of religion. Take it or leave it while we all know the end, some people believe that there is a right way and there is a wrong way to get there. Some day, we will all know the answer - will we?

Nice article, Secular Jew is for me in a way a Contradictio in terminis.

in theocracy religion is law! like sheria in iran, saudia...In isr religion is not the law. there re some law that comes from jewish culture and there fore linked to religion maybe like the marriage law which is completely religious. but in theocracies if u re not religious at best u re isolated, worst u re killed or punished. in isr u re free to be gay atheist muslim crhst jew, anything u want u re not suppressed by the state u re not an 'outlaw'! in switzerland minarets re forbidden in isr its not. and why re they forbidden because it changes the christian demography of ur country. sorry but if isr is semi theocracy u re a total theocracy! i never saw in isr a muslim community without their mosques and minarets. and please tell me is that only bible who says there was an historic jewish state in that land or u dont believe archeology proves and history books. is roman history lying? Religion has a big influence i agree. not only one.and doesnt mean isr is a theocracy.find a proof!

Even with all the negativity with religion , according to Levy , Israel is more democratic , and yes , more advanced then many countries in , beloved by Levy , Europa . Judaism is not a progress breaker , opposite , throughout the history of exile Jews were always more advanced then the locals . But for Levy religion is a red herring .

I hate to diapoint you Gideon, But the majority of "atheist" Swedes encourage their children to beleive in gnomes who leave presents. They dress their daughters up as witches who carry copper kettles and fly on their broomsticks at least once a year. And every midsummer they put these same children on their shoulders and dance around a phallic symbol singing a song about frogs. Nothing wrong with this of course. Just that I can't see how it is more "rational" than singing somgs about frogs at Pesach.

... that it is inadvertently funding the very settlements that it seeks to freeze...

who do? If you don't like Passover, that's fine. Don't celebrate it. No one is forcing you. But why criticize people who do? A little intolerant, wouldn't you say?

Gideon Levy would be a great joke and quite amusing......if he was not giving talking points to Israel's enemies. This becomes dangerous.

If you love Israel for it's Jewishness (denying equal rights as religions do) then why are you in Los Angeles? BTW, you are a great American (the love it or leave it line is so patriotic) too. With that said, Israel was created to be a haven for all Jews, whether religious or not (in fact the original "founders" wanted more secular then religious). Not to mention the fact that the Jewish faith shouldn't even recognize Israel because the moshiach hasn't come. In the end, I agree with Gideon. I would like to see an Israel where all Jews have freedom and all non-Jews are given equal rights. If that makes me a bad Jew, then get me Y'shua.

RELIGOUS EXTREMISM isn't ONLY A MUSLIM or CHRISTIAN PROBLEM but yes it is A JEWISH TRUE PROBLEM. at the end of the day ISRAEL has its own EXTREMISTS too.

Herzl famously said : "We will keep our priests in their temples and our polticians in their parliament". Alas, this has not happened. The "priests" have been allowed into the parliament - with predictable dire consequences. David

Defending a secular Israel is simple for me. But when we allow extremist theology to determine human rights it all gets ugly, indefensible and downright wrong. Theocracy, as history and contemporary conflicts illustrate, are insular, arrogant and murderous in all religions. Israel is a great democratic state in a sea of insanity. Were Israel to descend into the same madness as her enemies then I tooI will forsake you. There is a great painting of Jerusalem somewhere, that celebrated the three monolithic religions, the City of Peace. Reproductions of the contemporary masterpiece were made but there were few takers. The demise and destruction of Jerusalem seems more dear to these hypocrites who dream night and day of hate, and end times. Another masterpiece was painted, Millennial Oblation, reproductions were not made; it remains obscure because religious pretenders prefer the repeated and real Destruction of Jerusalem. Rein in your extremists, or lose your justification for existence.

The foundation of the United Kingdom is set in Paganism. Christianity became the dominant religion but in 1670 with the restoration there became a seperation of church and state. Religion has a guiding hand within British Society but it is not the deal maker that it is in Israel. Where the Religious far right have the reins of power, totally out of proportion with the number of religious nutters in Israel. Gideon Levy is correct, Israel although not been a theocracy in the Iranian sense is certainly a semi theocracy with the superficial trapping of a western democracy.

Chris, is that nonesense about stoning pits really you or is someone posting a provocation in your name? While hardly ever agreeing with you, at least your arguments are usually well-founded.

Gideon Levy is right. Unfortunately, he is definetely wrong as well. Big parts of Israel are very secular. A few weeks ago I was in Tel Aviv's port on shabbat night and the pubs were packed with young people and there was a hassid who couldn't have only one person to give his prayers. In Israel homosexual couples can adopt a child, which is impossible in France. In Tel Aviv you can live a daily life without religion at all. Unfortunately there is too much religion as well. In Israel people can't marry each other if not in a religious way. Jews are defined in a traditional, not modern way. A Jew is not forbidden to marry a muslim, but he can't do so in the country because there is no secular wedding. So Israel is a liberal and western and secular country with middle-age things sometimes. But it's not Teheran at all. You should not think in blanck and white, Gideon. Friendly, David.

So we're the cause of all our problems. Of course! If weren't such exclusive reprobates, the Spanish Inquisition wouldn't needed to have occurred, we would have never been expelled from our homeland in 70 or Britain in 1290 or the Arab states in the 20th century, and the pogroms are of course our fault as well. What are you trying to argue exactly? I'd like to think you're attempting to accomplish more than spew the same anti=Semitic dogma that's plagued your continent for centuries, but so far it doesn't seem so. What religion or people doesn't think they should be good examples for the rest of humanity? I can't think of any religion that doesn't think their conception of a divinity has a special mission for them on this earth. We do not have the same strengths and weaknesses as everyone else. To think all of humanity is the same is naive and untrue. if we're a people "like anyone else", then leave us be in our homeland and respect our rights in the community of nations.

this is the true face of israel

....in Israel should be open on sabbath...??? Honestly, I don't think so, of course they can be closed, in exactly the same way as most of them are closed in Switzerland on a Sunday. That alone surely won't make Israel a "semi- theocracy". My point was, that unlike Switzerland (and other European countries), the whole state of Israel is based on religion, otherwise Israel could easily be in Magadascar or Uganda (as Hitler would have liked it) or Florida today. Your interpretation of the Bible has left you with no other choice, but to establish Israel in the former British mandate Palestine. That is simply an indisputable fact.

Then don't be religious. Do your own thing, you have that right. Be an atheist, Marxist, or whatever you want. Both religious and secular shouldn't be intolerant. By the way, a lot of the world has become more religious. Would you criticize their religiosity?

Smadar,let me be plain honest with you: I very much believe,that many of the problems Israel today (and the Jewish people in the past, with the exception of the Holocaust of course) have found themselves confronted with,do have their roots in the core belief of the Jewish religion,namely that God has chosen you in order to serve as an example for the rest of the world. Apart from the fact,that most rational people will never be able to buy the idea,that God would have chosen a people for a special task, you will simply never be able to fulfil that order. Because the Jewish people are a people like everybody else in this world,with exactly the same strengths and weaknesses that everybody else has. So you keep on struggling with that task,which is simply an absolutely unrealizing one,for the reasons I mentioned above. The sooner you will find a way,to somehow get around that belief,the easier and less complicated life will become for you on planet earth....

Gideon completely confuses issues of private religiousness and state organization. Some aspects he mentioned are relevant - most are not. The fact that people are religious does not mean the state is a theocracy. Is US a theocracy? And what about Italy, Bavaria, Ireland, Poland and a few other places where most people are definitely not atheists?

A small correction to Gideon Levy's column, if it hasn't be mentioned yet: while halacha does govern the question of who is a Jew in terms of marriage, it doesn't for the law of return. The law of return was set up to offer citizenship to those Jews who had lost theirs, whether in Europe or elsewhere. In essence, if you had suffered as a Jew, you were welcome to come to Israel as a citizen. The definition, ironically, of who is Jewish enough for Aliyah, was the same employed by Hitler: if you had one Jewish grandparent, you were considered Jewish under the law of return. And that's aside and apart from the issue if you were married to someone Jewish... then the standard is even more lenient.

....that Switzerland, Sweden and the United Kingdom would be a bit worse off today without any religion (again, no proof for that, but maybe you are right). However, it is also as certain as the Amen in the church, that the United States and Israel would both be a whole lot better off today with a bit less religion....

levy's wrong when he bases his "semi-theocracy" thesis on such fine religious holidays and associated traditions as pesach, the mezuzah, seders or kiddush blessings... but his is right when rabbis excite soldiers to disobey military orders (which should normally be based on tactical geopolitical security necessities) on religious grounds... imagine this world's national defense forces taking battle orders from sunni imams, buddhist monks, catholic cardinals, orthodox bishops, hindu pandits, animist shamans and so on, on the basis of sacred texts.... except that levy did not mention this argument in his article.

Well - Germany's ruling party carries "Christian" in its name. Shopping Sundays were just almost abandoned completely because of a ruling protecting our "religious day of rest", based on pressure from the churches. And I guarantee you the number of "secular" Germans is higher than in Israel. Does that make us a theocracy? I doubt it.

Gideon Levy is absolutely right. The reasons many, many jews in France, the US and Canada are hesitant about moving to Israel is NOT the conflict with the Arabs, it is the theocratic ideals. I want to live in a free democratic state where no religious groups, Jewish, Christian or Muslim, tell me what I can and cannot do. I respect religion, but it should not be used in an oppressive way.

I agree there are many gentlies whoes life is dedicated towards the service of g-d... but my point was specifically about why there are jews in the first place... I also agree that there is nothing wrong with a secular state (i live in one its called canada) but if a state chooses to adopt religious law as state law there should be nothing wrong with that too... My beef is that Gideon says that there is something wrong with Israel apoting Halakhah... States like Saudi Arabia use sharia and they have every right to do so...

in switzerland its illegal to work on sundays because its the worship days of christians and non catholics cant work without a special permit which is nearly impossible to obtain. i know this cuz i have a really close friend of mine a muslim who cant work on sundays. do u know why this rule is established. because ur fellow christian swiss re goin to pray in sunday and this creates an inequality between chr and non chr.till now everything ok but everyone can work friday and saturday.isnt that create an inequality to suppressed minorities like jews and muslims in swiss? so this law is equal and non theocratic. but if isr choose to forbid working in sabbath its theocracy? please i had enough of ur hypocrisy! i dont want those rules too but its our culture. in a democracy everyone cant get what they want. Christmas is holyday in swiss why not a jewish holyday in jewish country? can u tell me why this doesnt make swiss a theocracy and makes isr one?

community than theology. I've repeatedly argued that Israel is a nation-state which arose for national/political and religious purposes, in ancient times and its existence today. This does not mean that the other current inhabitants who are non-Jewish, do not have the same equal rights within the nation-state. Israel symbolizes for us that we are a nation of distinct people with a history, some of which is reflected in the Bible. In my opinion, people who are at peace or at ease in accepting of each other, see the commonalities between their religions more than the differences. Jews, Muslims and Christians who adhere to this notion, accept one another. You know, one of my favourite prayers growing up which our Rabbi, a son of a prominent Canadian Rabbi, captured the essence of Judaism when he led in prayer while covering his hand over his eyes: " Grant us peace, Thy most precious gift O Thou eternal peace, and enable Israel to be a messenger of peace unto the peoples of the earth".

Former Israeli,born with the state in '48 and raised there for 20 years,going through the Israeli educational system,the IDF and all other propaganda that is entailed growing up in Israel. Having followed all the developments of the last 40 years from afar, I must admit that Gideon Levy is correct in his statements,and actually mild in his judgment of how radical it became.It's time to start packing !!!!!

If Israel is a semi-theocracy then my girl friend is only semi-pregnant.

When I need to get excited, I read Gideon Levy's columns. I have never seen such a negativist re anything Jewish or religious. Coming from a country with a motto of "In Gd we trust," and where Christmas is a legal holiday and Anno Domino is the accepted term for legal dating, I think it absolutely fine that a Jewish country adopts Jewish religious customs for its calendar and ongoing scheduling. I guess Gideon could look to another place where he wouldn't have to have circumcisions, kosher food establishments, civil marriage, or where he wouldn't have to watch citizens perform the "Pagan" (Levy's word) custom of kissing the Mezuza. Let's hope that there is someplace in the world, say North Korea or Cuba, where he wouldn't be forced to observe such indignities. In the meantime, unlike Levy, Israel is NOT too religious. Rather, it is too indulgent of such muckrakers like Levy, who have made their abhorrence of everything Israel and/or Jewish a religion. Alas!

Israel is a country based on the religion. In order to be a "real" citizen of Israel, one must be a jew. Sometimes this is not enough, Ethiopian jews are treated with racism in Israel despite being jews. So it seems like in order to be a good citizen of Israel you had better be a white jew. Israel's policies in the West Bank are based on is an ownership feeling for the land that itself is based on completely religious arguments, so for a country in which the religion is that improtant for the running of the state the term semi-theocracy is not enough, it is at least 3/4 theocracy. Turkey once used to be secular but today the islamists are trying to turn it to a 4/4 theocracy, sadly...

....with the way (right-wing) Jews have served him over the past decades...??? I really don't wanna try to speak in the name of God (or however you wanna call him/her), but if this God is supposed to be a caring, loving, compassionate figure, I honestly doubt it very much, that he/she will be very pleased with the (right-wing) Israel/Diaspora of today....

"Would Switzerland, Sweden, the United Kingdom etc. exist today, if there would be no Bible..??" - Swiss (Dino) A question to Swiss(Dino): what the three Countries you mentioned have in common? (too difficult to answer for Swiss(Dino)) hint 1: look at their national flags. hint 2: whould a symbol that unifies the three flags exist without a bible? A conclusion: Even if UK, Sweden, and Switzerland would exist without a Bible, they would not exist in their present form. In other words, there would be completely different countries (and probably people) in their place.

Gideon , remember , without all those decried by you spirituality , there would not be Israel on the first place . It would be only Stockholm kind of places left for you to where to live . So my question is , if you are so anti spiritual , anti everything Jewish , why are you still in Israel? Might it be that you are getting closer and closer to that dreaded foxhole stage of your life ? Otherwise I could meet you for a coffee right here at Time Square .

The Blue Laws forbid new car dealerships from being open. I suppose the US is a theocracy too.

Israel has had an umbilical cord to America since Israel became a state. Unlimited political support, material support, and massive financial support has sustained Israel and saved Israel from destruction. In spite of this, Israelis badmouth the American support and tell America to mind their own business. Just keep the weapons flowing. As a result, Israel has become an artificial place which cannot stand alone. Israel is simply a well armed gang with religious trappings. The true test of Israel as a nation is to go forward under its own power without steadying hands or training wheels. Israel should enter into the community of nations like all others do and not as the spoiled child of a super power.

serve God too, this is not unique to Judaism. I think you are overlooking the point that a secular state does not mean a non-religious or atheist one. It means one where organised religion does not have an official role in the doctrine or running of the state. It may have an official ceremonial role, run schools with the state's consent and so on, but it is not the law of the land.

stated quite clearly that he wished to see stoning pits re-established at the entrances of Israeli Towns. And still has his job as Justice Minister. Indicates Gideon Levy, yet again has hit the nail on the head. The worrying thing is the increasingly violent tactics used by the religious in Israel to get their own way. Reminiscent of the Taliban in Pakistan.

the reason why we are different from Gentile is that we live to serve g-d... thats why there are jews thats why there is Israel... If Gideon loves secularism so much then he should move to Sweeden... I am sure he would get along perfectly with the anti israel crowd there...(infact he would be thier champion) In the end Gideon is allowed to criticize Israel for its treatment of pals but he should never criticize a jewish country for being jewish...

Israel is not the fullfillment of the Jewish dream... and cannot be a full democracy until: a) gives citizenship to all of its citizens b) gives no preference to religious creeds c) makes peace with other countries around and.. d) reduces its militarism to a normal level

Religion is always a demanding entity and has always sought more power and control over peoples' lives, not always for the right reasons. It is essential to draw some red lines to protect democracy and avoid becoming a theocracy. Attaturk had the right idea - the state must be secular and religion left to the individual. Religious leaders are not politicians having to operate in the real world and, while they may have a pile of theocratic laws, they are not lawyers either. And the last thing a nation needs is being driven by a bunch of religious zealots with their own priorities, whether in 12th Century Europe or 21st Century Iran (or Israel). I hope that Israel will be able to withstand the further encroachment of religion into the affairs of the state and peoples' daily lives. People are quite capable of deciding for themselves on their spiritual needs and the degree of adherence they wish to have to organised religion, without it imposing its rules, demands and visions upon them.

example for a secular religious= a person who believes in a religion and applies its rules in his life without meddling others and the state! France is secular and one of the most catholic country in the world! Britain has nothing in its law that forces secularism but still secular! many religious in britain maybe some rules and laws that comes from religion but applied because its tradition. Ireland an other hardcore catholic country where there is democracy... Why when it comes to judaism we cant have rules thats re in or religion? so should we have same rules in EU to be a democracy? if oneday in isr a person is arrested and prisoned because he ride a car in shabbath isr will be a theocracy. and as the religion is a part of all societies like it or not it is there will be some rules coming from religion to our law because its the way of living of the society. semi theocracy doesnt exist. and isr is no theocracy. its a democracy that regardless of religion u can vote and elected

This is a great example why the rest of the world compare Israel with Iran.They've sharia,Israel has halakha

In FR and Switzerland its forbidden to open your store in sunday if you dont have a special permission just like sabbath in Isr. sunday is the praying day of christians so france and many eu country re theocracy? Gideon u certainly didnt understand the term laicism secularism and democracy even in my young age and for sure less experience understand it. or u u ve found an other way to blame isr and pretend not to understand (u owe ur fame to ur israel bashing not to ur objectivity) laicism= religion and state law politics re separate! without it no democracy! it doesnt mean u cant put law's that re traditions for ur people like holyday in hannucha is not different than toutsaint(known as holloween which is a holyday in france) or pesah is no different than easter which is holyday in many country! But france is still secular and democratic secular people can be religious. even it seems very stupid in first look. but secularism doesnt means atheism!

.Modern Israel was created by secular,socialist or left-wing zionist movements,some of their members were even atheists or openly anti-religious,but they had the common sense of allowing all currents of jewish behaviour and thinking to be represented in the government,including the religious way of life.That is really democracy.Do what you want with your private life and beliefs,and allow the others to do the opposite.Slowly,the rabbis trough their religious parties created the present situation where there is no real separation between church and state.The more they grow in % of the population,the theocracy will become inevitable,by vote.Then they will be able to abolish democracy.

In many ways Jonathan 4 makes a fair point. We in western countries do live in societies that contain significant vestiges of Christianity. But vestiges is the key word here. Church-going is constantly dropping, Christmas is becoming largely secular and all about fir trees and presents instead of religion, and things like the Queen being the official head of the Church of England are anachronisms from past centuries that mean nothing today. Israel seems to be going the other way. In the West, we tend to assume society will always get more secular, more western, more liberal, but Afghanistan shows that's not true. There were mini-skirts there in the 1970s and burqas now. Religion was not centre stage in Israel in the 1950s and 1960s, but now hardline nationalist religion is on the rise in the power centres of Israel like the government and the IDF. We know how violent Christianity and Islam can get, Judaism has yet to discover how bad it can get but some rabbis already give hints

Israels whole foundation was based on religion, or in other words, on the Jewish interpretation of the Bible: Would Switzerland, Sweden, the United Kingdom etc. exist today, if there would be no Bible..?? Most probably yes. Would Israel exist today, if there would be no Bible...?? Definitely not.

you don't need to go to the extremist Iran. Look at my country, Poland. Where ultracatholic Radio Maryja is being listened to by 2-4 millions of people. Where just 2 years ago the government was just like yours: a coallition of centrist-right (PIS) party with fashisizing-right (LPR) party and thieves-party (Samoobrona). Where most of inhabitants keep the catholic tradition, with the highest number of priests per person in the world, with churches everywhere and large influences of catholic church on the public life. But in Poland, too, there is democracy. And there are still millions of secular people who recently voted against this religious-nationalist turbomix. And we also have problems with lenient jurisdiction. So let's not exaggerate. Just people of Israel, do all you can to kick out the far right from your government. (and please, remove settlements from the West Bank, for the sake of your country... toda raba.)

Israelis love to paint Iran as a primitive, backwards theocracy hiding behind the guise of a democracy and with a penchant for nuclear weapons. Well, guess what - Israel too is a theocracy with a pseudo-democracy. The only real difference between Israel and Iran is that Israel HAS nuclear weapons, and has come close to using them (in 1973). So who is the more dangerous of the two?

and follow religious law, all they want. But not enshrine these into state laws!! You know, a real separation of church and state...or should I say in this case synagogue and state. This is Gideon's main point: government and religious institutions are to be kept separate and independent from each other. Ie: secular!

THE REAL DANGER. I'll go further than your facts, and as you mentioned Teheran.Iran was before the revolution like us, religious but a secular state. You just need that, as the most important officers in the army will be religious they will bring all our fears to happen. Before, it will be in Turkey ,soon also in Egipt,then is our turn.Whith out the army you won't get the "halaja",you just saw it in the last weeks, the first symptoms with the yeshivot hesder.You can't change the facts that you wrote, it's only demography and time. Nat Rozen

... not when it borders on anti-Zionism. Judaism is a religion, a nation, and a culture. Israel is unique in that it caters to all three facets. While I do think Israel's government is becoming too far removed from the relatively secular base it was founded on (Herzl was an atheist, for heaven's sake!), I would never want Israel to become the secular, God-less society Levy seems to espouse. I consider myself relatively liberal, but here Levy seems to despise and call into question the very foundations of the Jewish state. To each his own, but I don't get why he doesn't just go the way of Ilan Pappe and leave the state he no longer seems to believe in.

Judaism... a religion or a nationality. That's the philosophical argument for the ages. In the daily lives of Israelis, that concept is so opaque... so fuzzy, it's absolutely impossible to distinguish one from the other. I don't think there's another country in the world... that experiences such contortions over that concept. Even the Christians in Rome consider themselves Italian first. Maybe it's a factor of thousands of years of persecution or that age-old syndrome of roaming the globe. What ever it is... the manifestations that have evolved are so deep-rooted in the Israeli psyche, that I'm afraid it will be extremely difficult to unravel.

Alas, Mr. Levy has to admit that many Jews in this country follow traditions that you might call "religious". Then again, by comparison, many otherwise secular Roman Catholics would never imagine not having a wedding sancioned by "the Church". My dear Watson, it's comme il faux. Neeman's suggestion, well, if you think about how well the civil courts have dispensed justice in the past, and continue to promote law and order, what is so bad about considering Halachic legal parameters. Wasn't the current State Comptroller who let the four rapists from Kibbutz Shomrat off the hook, I believe, on the grounds that the girl was willing accomplis in the mid '80s? You call that justice, or the the judge who has to be brought back for a trial, for money he obtained illegaly? It seems Yevseks never die, they reincarnate, and Mr. Levy is a second generation Yeveek

Gideon - Please tell us what you would like the Jewish state to look like. What would be Jewish about it that would be acceptable to you? There is no need to be snarky or nasty - just explain why you want to live in a place that is specifically a Jewish state as opposed to other locations? After you write your answer I have another question but I don't want to make assumptions before hearing your response.

Yes, there are some aspects of Israel which are theocratic: marriage laws, no public transportation on Shabbat and holidays, etc. But in a halachic theocracy I would be put in jail for cooking or driving on Saturday or mixing milk and meat in the same pot. There would be no television broadcasts on Shabbat, no Tiv Taam to shop in, no cinemas open on a Saturday morning. People who can't get married under religious law would not be able to go to Cyprus and marry by civil ceremony. As in many democratic countries, Israel's laws are a patchwork of compromises. Sometimes the religious parties win, sometimes they lose in their attempts to force the secularists to obey halacha. It is messy, it is sometimes arbitrary and unfair, but it is not anywhere near being a theocracy. Let's keep it that way.

Because Israel isn't a theocracy. (He said that Jewish law should be the law of the land).

You bring up a very timely issue as many Amer- icans are sick of Israeli officials trying to line up their values with America's and have given up their time and money to reveal this gross distortion in US/ Isreali relations and how it filters out in terms of the siphoning of US tax dollars from the treasury and arms. It's all so deceptive and unfair.... Dutch

Gideon, do you mean you only just noticed? That is what Israel is all about. As a dynamic, freer-than-most society, we shall always be seeking to strike the correct balance between the beacon of religious observance and personal freedom. As a secular Orthodox Jew - that is having no illusions that it is possible to invent a course of non-Jewish observance as a salve to conscience, my neighbours and I greet each other on Saturday mornings, they on their way to a nearby synagogue and I on my way to the beach. No name-calling, no one beating you up 'because you killed Jesus', children normally marrying Jewish spouses - bliss and if you don't know what I am talking about, you are very lucky. Why is it that many of those, apart from the ultra religious, who think that Israel should not exist as a Jewish State are associated with what is loosely termed 'the Peace Camp'? Gideon, this time you have a point and are helping to maintain the delicate balance with which most of us can live.

... not only turned it into a theocracy, but an underhanded one at that.

Oh the similarities: 1 fanatical point of view that is irrational, dogmatic and biased. 2 paranoid i.e. The world is out to get us 3 immoral : whether it is stealing elections or land, regimes based on religion will commit crimes in the name of their religion 4 brutal and oppressive: whether it is your people or the occupied people, always us versus them 5 inflexible: no tolerance for anyone different in views and outlook

I usually enjoy Gid'on Levy's articles. But this one irks me. The root of Israel's waffling, baffling-to-the-West attitude on secular vs. religious observance, be in Shabbat in Jerusalem, how settlers vs. Israeli Arabs vs. Palestinians are treated, is not related to "who is a Jew." It's about "what is a citizen." If all citizens had the same, inalienable rights (one might presume freedom of - and from - religion), and courts had to decide a case's merits on that, instead of dodgy Mandate Era "logic," most cases would be fairly clear. Israel was founded by secularists, who imported the religious, who out-bred the secular. Such is life. But everyone should have equal rights, and that's just not the case now: it's about who's got the power. And that's a symptom of tyranny, not democracy.

Gideon lets admit if we are in Gaza we are not allowed anymore to sit on the back of a motorcycle as a woman and churches are burnt down as well as mosques blown up. When we are in Israel Arab women can be pimped as well as murdered for the 'honour' of their family. This is true theocracy lets say it as it is Gideon Israel is a shining democracy with at least some basic values unlike the Swedish atheists which is also some kind of a religion by the way.

You think you live in anything remotely like the primitive cultures of the Arabs? You live in a paradise compared to them. Stop denigrating yourselves--your society is open, free, democratic and by any measure extremely enlightened.

So finally someone had the guts to ask this. I'm impressed.

Israel is a democracy, with fair elections, freedom of expression for all (including for the religious community), and political groups and interests influencing the political arena. How can you, Mr. Levy compare Israel with Iran. Israelis enjoy all the important freedoms democracy grants. Iranians enjoy none, and they are jailed or killed for disagreeing with the government. You are not only biased Mr. Levy, you are delirious. The gates of stockholm are widely open for you.

In Israel the only "holy iron grip" belongs to the Jewish mother!

Israel only has itself to blame. It tried to be clever by providing incentives to would be immigrants of whatever vague Jewish origin to increase the population. And now these people, led by the likes of Lieberman, have hijacked the secular Israeli state and turned it into a theocracy!

Based of your description of life in Israel, Iran is much more secular, certainly Tehran where I grew up. Your average middle class person there thinks religion is a remnant of the Arab invasion hundreds of years ago and only pays lip service to it.

Israel by far the most left wing country Middle East they do not stone gays. They did not put people death for worship many gods. So I would not call Israel semi-theocracy that for country like Eygpt and Jordan. For theocracy country look to Saudi Arabia ,Iran others.

"Eighty-five percent of Israelis hold a Passover seder, fervently recalling the plagues - pestilence, boils, death of the first-born. Sixty-seven percent fast on Yom Kippur, which in Western eyes is the strangest of days." Most Canadians celebrate Christmas as well as Easter. Does this mean Canada is a semi-theocracy? "The Western Wall is holy to everyone - who has not placed a note with a wish in its crevices?" We have a big church in Montreal called Oratoire St-Joseph and many go there for catholic holidays. Does this mean Canada is a semi-theocracy? Most Catholics(and Atheists) in Canada have burials and weddings according to Cathloic tradition. Does this mean Canada is a semi-theocracy? My point is that according to your standards, every western nation is a semi-theocracy. This is not the case in reality. My 2 cents.

I'm not just trying to be abrasive. The reality is that the secular liberal Western democracy is but one extreme along a complex spectrum of governing ideologies. Here in the United States we stress the separation of church and state, but no one would think to suggest we're a secular nation. Does that mean we're no different than Saudi Arabia? It's ironic that western liberals such as Levy are the first to tell us that we cannot impose our beliefs on other nations, including Iran, and yet they are the first to castigate us for not meeting their own ideals. It's no secret that Israel is still wrangling over just how much influence Judaism should have over the state (and what kind of Judaism should be doing the influencing), but the reality, which Levy does touch upon, is that most Israelis would not be comfortable or happy living in a completely secular society. That does not make them obtuse or backwards. It makes them Israelis.

Gideon is right about all those things, but these things arent bad! This is why we have a jewish state. This is why we have Israel! So we can be jews in our own land. (and practice without being the minority or being persecuted). Gideon, if you dont like the fact that Israel is a jewish state, simply leave!

I think Gideon compares to the ideal liberal, secular state. The reality is that government power in the hands of religious institutions is common throughout the world, including western Europe. Churches often receive a percentage of taxes. The ability of religious institutions to affect laws exists everywhere.