Enough Palestinian cars

Dear Azzam, Thank you for your response to my note. What I would expect of the Palestinians- or at least hope for- is a measure of compromise with both the existence of Israel and its right to defend itself, on the one hand, and the fact that the territory- all the territory- between the Jordan and the Mediterranean is disputed. Compromises can be worked out if the Palestinians recognize that their claims are not exclusive, as most Israeli has. But lets start with the idea that any Israeli or Palesthian who purposely targets and murders unarmed civilians should be treated as the murderers they are.

Here's a solution to the entire Pal/Israel conflict: Let's separate the two peoples along the River Jordan Divide. They are there, we are here, and peace in Israel.

I enjoy reading the responses to articles by lefties like Gideon Hass more than the aritcle themselves because it goes to show the extent of the ignorance of everyone outside Israel and reassures me that it is not just people from the middle east that lack a grip on reality. i mean you have one person saying that ALL of israel's citizens are treated fairly under the law! c'mon! all you have to do is speak to a kahzakstani or ethopian and you'll know better. other's suggest that apartheid might not be such a bad idea! what happened to the morality of jews and what kind of people are jew associating with? what's the deal? why is our problem ("our" only applies to those born or raised in israel not jew's or evangelical christians with internet in america!) always cast between either having to be a complete apologist for palestinian attrocities or blind patriotic borderline facist israeli nationalist and/or jewish fanatic? surely the demonstration of true patriotism is to point out the flaws in the state so that they can be fixed not to merely airbrush out what doesn't fit with the ideology or brainwashing? airbrushing out the gory details is what Goebbells did. its a good thing israel is run by israelis or we'd be in a diaspora dictatorship of the surreal.

I think that Gideon's suggestions are ridiculous. To assert the idea that the Palestinian people somehow are comfortable with the fact of having their freedom's restricted is absurd. In fact is such a proposal were actually passed it would inevidably result in an increase in violence. The real issue here is the occupied territories and the illegal settlements which exist there that is the real threat to national security!

You wrote: "What Israel is inflicting upon the largely innocent civilian Palestinian population is more than just apartheid". Is it up to Israel to sort up Palestinian population - who is innocent and who is murderer of Israeli children? Until Palestinians themselves will continue killing Israeli citizens - they all should be treated as the terrorist population.

i repeat third time that i would like to see your beautifull tail, how long is it? 20cm? or only 10?

... The 4th Geneva Conventions adopted in 1949 to which Israel is a signator Section III Article 49 Paragraph 5 The counquering country shall not deport or transfer any portion of its own population to the territory it occupies. Official Israel alone has maintianed that the territory was disbuted rather than occupied therefore the Geneva Conventions don't apply. The rest of the planet says they do apply. I will scream if anyine says ... but Palestine was never a country ... AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH! Suffice to say the rest of the planet recognizes the territory as the ligitimate Palestinian homeland whether there was a proper state or not. Israel is in clear violation of the Convention in spirit if not in fact in law.

More than a year ago, already, I heard from a reliable spokesperson in Gush Katif that Levy, who saw the beauty and the blossoming of the area and its people, when asked if he would write about it, said something like, "If I have my way, Haaretz will never write about that." Where was he when three young people were murdered in cold blood by Arabs driving on the Gush Etzion non-"apartheid" road? This article is full of venom and hatred, a poor excuse for journalism. If the same degree of venom and hatred appeared in a "right wing" publication, the writer and editor would probably be indicted for incitement and/or treason. If Levy had a law degree, he'd be in line for a plum judgeship in the High Court of "Justice". He missed his calling. TKG

"Every time Israel kills an apartment building full of innocent people to off one terrorist," When and how many times has this happened Mark Lincoln. Give me some links.

Dear Joe of Ramallah You made my day with your wonderful commentary and eloquence. I read your article with my eyes full of tears as you spoke the most painful truth in my life. But I have a different appeal. My appeal to all our Jewish friends is to read your commentary instead of Levy's. Yours is much thought provoking and comes from the heart of a decent human being. You are a good Christian who is asking G-d to forgive those who wronged you and to show them the ethical and just path. God bless all of you.

Howdy Dutch; I had to look up the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Actually, the UDHR is on very shaky legal ground since it was passed by an United Nations General Assembly Resolution # 217 on 12/10/48. It was never passed by the UN Security Council which would have given it much more weight. The exact wording of your reference is: Article 13. (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state. (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country. I'm no lawyer, but I can see already that you have some major problems with trying to use UDHR, Article 13 as a basis for demanding a "right of return" for Palestinian refugees. The worst of which is the fact that the UDHR is non-binding and unenforceable. Another, is the fact that the Palestinians rejected statehood back in 1947 and, therefore, have no "country" to return to. It's getting late and this thead is going to die soon. See you later.

i am not here to defend a single israeli policy with you. i have never seen you as a serious poster that has any real knowledge if the region or the true situation i repeat and hope you understand - your opinions are not important to me. bm

The Israelis are also people, not some dehumanized creatures. The Arabs who left Israel did it on their own accord. In 1949, in the talks for a peace treaty, Israel offered them to go back and to receive compensations. The Arab leaders rejected the offer, because it would have mean the recognition of Israel. Even so some Arabs went back to Israel. The "Pals" now have a land where to build a country. They should leave Israel alone at once.

there are 1.5 million arabs in the west bank and they should move somewhere else. Israel should pay their moving expenses like they did for the jews in the gaza strip.

Hi Observer I didn't say anything in my earlier response that indicated "disgust" with Israel. If I felt that, then I wouldn't be here. All I did was reflect on a debate that can be heard in most Israeli houses at any given time, especially around dinner tables during the holidays. Please note that I continue to do my miluim (reserve army duty) even though it would be easy enough to get out of it. Chag sameach lekulam

My friend, you have said you support a 2 state solution. The next question would be how are those 2 states territorially defined. The extremes of the 2 state are: 1 A total withdrawal to the Green Line or 2 Gaza becomes the Palestinian state and Israel keeps the West Bank and al-Quds. Since neither is gunna fly ... the answer must be in-between. Both Taba and the Geneva Accords are in-between and represent the best starting point for final border issues ... unless one believes a better wheel can be reenvented. What do the 2 states that you advocate look like?

"My point was, it is delusional if, when comparing Israeli behavior to the behavior of any number of other countries, one concludes that Israel deserves uniquely harsh condmnation. It is this delusional state of mind that I was trying to call attention to." Not a problem. I agree Israel dose not deserve any special punishments. As for some of the delusions, as you mention, many here talk about a right of conquering territory and cite many examples. They forget that unilaterally keeping such territory became illegal in 1949 with the addoption of the 4th Geneva Conventions. The colonization of conquered territory is also illegal by the same document. Israel is a signator to that document.

The strict interpretation of UNGA194 would require Israel to commit demographic suicide. Mo one is going to insist that Israel does that but the rufugee problem does exist, for whatever reason, and needs to be addressed in a final Israeli-Palestinian resolution. 181 is clearly dead since the entire planet does recognize the Green Line as the only official line of demarcation. In fact, aren't Israeli colonial subsities based upon whether one lives inside or outside of the Green Line?

Dear pk This is my second reading and I am more disturbed and confused. In our church we are sympathetic to Israelis and less to the Palestinian. The common perception is that Israelis are trying hard to achieve a reasonable accomodations with the Palestinians. Comparing the posting of Azzam ( a muslim Palestinain, I presume) and Elias Hazineh ( a christiaqn Palestinan, I presume), and those of Rustam and Khader, it makes wonder what went wrong here. The Palestinians are much more balanced and much more thoutful, and I am very impressed by their arguments. The Israelis seem very inransigent, reactionary and much worse racist. If I say one hundredth of that about American Jews ( which I will never do as my father is Jewish), I will defintely lose the respect of the American society and perhaps damage my career and worse I will be labeled antisemitic. I know that I am not saying anything new here. But for a naive American, I go with the underdog which I thought all my life to be Israel, but now I am more inclined to lobby for the real underdog, the Palestinians. I checked this on the internet: Is it true that Israel has passed a law prohibiting Palestinians from marrying Israelis?

You are right ... General Assembly resolutions are non-binding. Yet the refugee problem does exist ... for whatever reason ... and that needs to be addressed. I think it was the Saudis that offered a solution that likely will be the basis for a resolution. Host countries would be asked to absorb their Palestinian refugees but no greater than 10% of their own population. Most would be encouraged to return to the new Palestinian state, which means Palestine needs the Jordan Valley. Some would be allowed into Israel based upon active family relations and the number of colonists who want to stay in the territory under Palestinian sovereignty. You are also correct in that UNGA194 does apply to Jews forced out of Arab countries as well. It doesn't matter if Israelis (and supporters) say the Right of Return doesn't exist in order to just make it go away. Remember Golda who said Palestinians don't exist? The Palestinians didn't just go away.

Jeff-- You don't seem to get it --the world has had it with Israel's illegal settlers. Many of us feel tricked by Israel into supporting their illegal settlements with our tax payers monies. We should all take Israel to the Hague for this. I feel there has been a terrible misuse of International aid to Israel. Six prevuious American presidents told Israel those settlements were obstacles to peace and still Israeli leaders built. Last year, 60 retired American diplomats and British diplomats wrote letters to Bush and Blair condemning those settlements. People aren't going to stand by anymore and take this from Israel. Many like myself feel the Security Council should be called in to boot out the settlers. Never mind Syria--Israel is the real trouble maker and a threat to peace in the Middle East. It is fueling terrorism by the minute with its cruel and corrupt policies towards the Palestinian people. I am sorry I spent so many years supporting Israel. Israel cannot trample on its neighbors rights this is a fundamental principle enshrined in all our laws, treaties, and religions. The law is the law whether you like it or not. People and countries should respect the laws of the land. This is what makes us a civil and lawful society . That's the bottom line here. Dutch

How is it sensible to take displaced peoples who currently live peacefully with their neighbors and move them into territory where they would likely go to war with their neighbors? Why not mutual financial compensation for displaced refugees? Is it so important that people return to the hostile location that their families lived in half a century ago? And of all the displaced people in recent history, when has the solution ever involved moving the displaced people back to their previous conflict environment? The only sane and rational solution is geographic separation with apologies and financial compensation for refugees on both sides of the conflict. To anyone who would push these two groups into close geographic proximity to satisfy their own distorted sense of justice, I would call you a warmonger.

"Thus, until Israel complies with resolution 194 one could argue that Israel`s status is incomplete." - Dutch What do you want Dutch? Do you want another 50 years of war? Or do you want the Israeli and Palestinian peoples to get on with a better life? I hope at some point they could become economically and politically interdependent peoples. I think the region is too geographically and physically integral for both to prosper without the other. But that does not prevent me from knowing that until they are apart, can they ever be together. In the 1920s, or even the early 1930s, a condominium was possible. But there has been far too much between them for there ever to be something else between them until after most Israelis and Palestinians now alive are dead. Shalom/Salaam/Peace/Pax - for Christ sake stop killing - got it?

"In other words ... pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. or If one must discuss sin and evil ... discuss someone else`s and leave you to yours?" No, that wasn't my point. I find there is plenty to criticize regarding the behavior of both the Israelis and of the Palestinians. However, there are many people who post here who put their criticism in terms that do compare Israel to all other countries (and occasionally all other times in history). Those who use words like "the worst", "the most", "the longest", "the largest" are, by their inclusive words, considering the list of other countries I mentioned previously. My point was, it is delusional if, when comparing Israeli behavior to the behavior of any number of other countries, one concludes that Israel deserves uniquely harsh condmnation. It is this delusional state of mind that I was trying to call attention to. ciao

All actions taken by Israel whether it is the Apperthied Wall or the Apperthied Road, have been on the drawing boards, way before the Second Intifad and it has nothing to do with Palestinian violence. It is all part of the plan to take over the rest of Palestine.

"In other words ... pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. or If one must discuss sin and evil ... discuss someone else`s and leave you to yours?"

Jeff, I agree with you that UN general assembly resolutions are not enforceble, even UN Security council resolutions are selectively enforced. I will however, totaly dissagree with your conclusions on the refugees. It took the Jewish people over 2000 years, the right political and military conditions. They forced themselves on the Palestinians. Will the Palestinians have to wait that long? Maybe, but their rights simply wont deminish with the passing of time. My second beef with your argument concerns your equating Palestinian refugees forced by the zionist to flee under the threat of death and the Jewish refugees from Arab countries who were encourged again by the zionist to flee their homes in the Arab countries so they can take over the properties of the ethinicaly cleansed Palestinians. Despite the huge difference between the two groups, both have a GOD given right to reclaim their property and the right of return. The Jews who fled from the Arab countries must be given the same right of return as the Palestinian. What's right for the goose is right for the gander. Finally, let me beg you not to wait until the military and political conditions permit the Palestinians to return. For the sake of future generations.

Arab Muslims have been waging war on the Jews in Israel/palestine and throughout the middle east, or the self-proclaimed 'Arab Lands' for decades. Muslims persecuted, murdered, raped and robbed Jews in native Jewish Israel and all around the middle east for hundreds of years. Native Jews in Ottoman Palestine were treated worse at times than under any form of apathied. Then European Jews started to show up. They built farms and kibbutzim on uninhabited land. They bought land from fat cats in damascus and bagdhad for insanely unreasonable prices and built homes, schools and communities. They did not come with guns and chase their Arab neigbors away. They came in peace-this is a historic fact-and were eventually met with hate and violence. They hired Arabs and Muslims to work allong side them and guard their homes. The early kibbutzniks wore keffiehs, wanting to be more like thier ancestral brethren. They came in peace. Arab nationalism turned ugly and Arab terrorists started waging war against the Jews in Palestine. The Brittish arrested the Jews who tried to stand and fight, restricted Jewish access to Palestine while letting thousands of Arabs from surrounding nations like Syria, Iraq and Egypt to enter freely to take part in all of this--Arab immigrants who's future generations today ignorantly regard themselves as 'native palestinians' in thier 'ancestrall homeland'. During WW2 the muslims sided with germany and the NAZIs, brought together by their mutaul hatred and emnity towards Jews. Violent riots against Jews in the streets ensued, with Jewish homes, shops and institutions being attacked and desecrated. Entire Kibbutzim were raided and slaughtered. Whos to blame? Arab Zenophobia, racism and religious intolerance. Jews broke the law and fought back. These were by and large survivors of the Holocaust. They told the native Jews of Palestine that they did not need to live in constant 'Dhimmitude' under the Muslims. They smuggled weapons, formed defense organizations and stood their ground. In 1948-9, Jordan invaded the west bank, not Israel. Egypt invaded the gaza strip, not Israel. Jewish communities in these areas, some recent, some ancient, were attacked and destroyed, and rebuilt as palestinian communities and labled 'refugee camps' by the Jordanian and Egyptian invaders. These Palestinian 'refugees' came to belive that this was somehow their 'ancestral homeland'. The invading Arab nations did not help or even let these 'refugees' build themselves any kind of working communities, society or nation. Unable to conquer the Jews by conventional military means, they decided that the people in the refugee camps would be their new weapon-a human weapon. In the refugee camps the following generations of Palestinians were taught that Jews came one day to the Palestinian's peacefull ancestral homeland and declared outright war on them. They were taught that the holocaust was a big lie to stir up sympathy for the Jews. They were taught all sorts of disgusting, unreasonably false Nazi propaganda. In every instance of Arab agression towards Israel, from outright massive multi-national invasions to Organized Arab terrorism, the situation of the Arab Palestinians has always worsened. Each turn of the screw makes Palestinian hatred towards Israel burn more and more out of controll.

A little history for you all to think about: 600 CE. Mohammed decided that the Arabs would be the new-improved extra righteous Jew, and put the Jews of Arabia to the sword. He made up a story about 'ascending' to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and talked with the HEBREW angel Gavriel. The Muslims plopped Mosque #94727 on top of the Desecrated Jewish Temple and said it was thiers. In the 20th century Jews tried to rebuild thier civilization in Israel, but the Muslims stood firm-It was too late. Islam had stolen and appropriated the Jewish religion, the holiest site in Judaism, and now they would claim the birthplace of the Jewish nation and people as thier own. Today they claim the land of Israel as thier own.

"Peace will be around the corner when Gideon Levi writes a piece about the need for Palestinian society to take responsibility for its murderers" When you take care of your murderes (aka IDF) everything will be fine. YOu can't go killing, destroying, and looting land and expect palestinains to sit idly by. http://www.btselem.org/English/Firearms/ "From the beginning of the intifada, on 29 September 2000, until 30 June 2005, 3,185 Palestinians have been killed in the Occupied Territories, among them 645 minors (under the age of 18). At least 1,722 of those killed were not participating in fighting at the time. Thousands more have been wounded. "

Disrupting Palestinian traffic is still less vicious than firing missles at Sderot and bombing markets and buses in Jerusalem.

Ernie There is a Right of Return and it is listed in the Declaration of Human Rights under article #13. Israel's admission to the UN as a member state in 1947 was conditional upon its compliance of two UN Resolutions: (1) Accepting a full fledged Palestinian sovereign state according to resolution 181 (the partition of Palestine), and (2) accepting the return of refugees to "their home" according to resolution 194 . Thus, until Israel complies with resolution 194 one could argue that Israel's status is incomplete. Dutch

Kim up the wall, collective punishment of innocent civilians is - despite it's sadistic appeal to those who do it - a contra-productive act. Nothing is so welcome to those running an insurgency as collective punishment of innocent civilians. It is guaranteed to help the insurgents - which is what Palestinian terrorists are. Those who practice collective punishment of innocent Palestinians are the best recruiters that the likes of Hamas and Islamic Jihad can have. They are also people who insist upon making certain EVERY Palestinian understands exactly WHO the enemy is. Every time Israel kills an apartment building full of innocent people to off one terrorist, or destroys a family home because one member was a terrorist, or causes endless delay and disruption to 'get even' because of the acts of a terrorist; then that is when israel recruits more terrorists than it defeats. This lesson may be observed in the struggle for a Jewish Homeland. In the late 1930s the overwhelming majority of Jewish Palestinians disapproved of what the Irgun and Stern Gangs were doing. The disapproval was such that the Irgun and particularly the Stern Gang were often turned in. They certainly did not gain protection and support from most Jewish Palestinians. The British were so rash, so brutal, so inconsiderate, and unnecessarily vile in their collective punishment of Jewish Palestinians over the next decade, that they recruited far more Jewish terrorists than they killed or imprisoned. The British also eliminated the support they had from Jewish Palestinians, and as a result most Jewish Palestinians - even the police - would not turn in a member of either the Irgun or Stern Gang even if they disagreed with their actions. In fact, the British oppression even resulted in appeals by ARAB liberals for restraint in the persecution of Jewish Palestinians.

Capt. Yosarian. One day Gideon may tire but also one day you and many, many others may be very, very sorry of all the cruel and senseless humiliations being inflicted on the Palestinians. These things, as seen so many times in history, have a way of coming back to hit you. Wake up, before it is too late. It is very hard to believe that in such a civilized country, or is it not, such as Israel can this things be happening. Daniel Harker

Saeb Erekat, the articulate spokesman for the Palestinian Authority, looks on television just like an uncle of mine. I simply do not understand all of this bs about rascism, when Jews and Arabs are both Semites and happen to look alike.

"Israel has divided the West Bank so much that there many Palestinians can barely trave to near by villages. The aprtheid wall, checkpoints miltyary zones and so on make it completely impossible for the Palestinians tol ead a normal life" Oh dear. From your comments, one would think that terrorism has its disadvantages.

Peace will be around the corner when Gideon Levi writes a piece about the need for Palestinian society to take responsibility for its murderers and to pay amends for their actions. Every time the Hebron-Jerusalem road is opened for unlimited Palestinian traffic Jewish families find themselves burying their children. The best policy is zero tolerance of murderers and their defenders, period.

Howdy Dutch; Whether or not the Israeli settlers are "illegal" depends on where the border between Israel and the furturistic State of Palestine is to be, but we will let that one slide. By definition, the national security of any country includes the protection of its citizens no matter where they are. There are countless examples of this, but I'll give you one example. Two French Catholic missionaries were executed by the Empire of Vietnam circa 1859. The outraged French invaded Vietnam in 1860 and by 1873 had seized all of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia which became known as "French Indochina". The French were able to hang on to their colony until 1954. Messing with Israeli citizens is not wise, for it will surely invoke a response from the Israeli government as I would expect that the U.S. government would do for me if the situation called for it.

Please people just try to imagine a little hypothetical history. It is true the United States in its nacent form, rode into what is now called Texas and said, oh boy, this is a big empty chunk of land. but of course there were them Spanish speaking folks, their armies, and a scattering of Indians who had been earlier defeated by the Spanish speakers. so the Yanks defeated those there Spanish guys, forced them into what is now Mexico, and pushed the Indians further west. That is history. Now just imagine the Spanish speakers and their armies had never come to terms with this humiliation and continued to attack the Americans in Texas. Imagine them lining up along the Texas borders along with the Spanish speaking Catholic armies of Chile, Bolivia, Argentina, the Nicarauguans and their mother Spain. Imagine that the Texans beat them back on three seperate occassions. After losing these wars, the other nations retreated and left it to the Mexicans to retrieve their land on their own. Imagine the Mexicans for the last thirty years sending missles into American border towns. Imagine them sending suicide bombers into the streets and busses of Houston and Dallas as well as San Diego and Los Angeles. Imagine what the Americans would do? Along with that it was found that Latino street gangs in LA were participating in this unrest, and calling for a return of Texas and Southern California to Mexican hands. Would the Americans just sit back and say well we deserve it? Some would, but most definitely would not. As for Pakistan and Palestine. It turns out they have more than just a racist hatred for memebes of another religion in common. Both also claim land that is not theirs, that they fought for and lost. What was very interesting in the reports from the earthquake were the news reports speaking of UN refugee camps along the Pakistani-Indian border. These camps are filled to the brim with Moslem refugees from Indian Kashmir. Sound familiar? These poor folks like their Palestinian brothers, have not been intergrated into the fabric of Pakistani life, because it has been found that these people make good fodder for the fight against India. these camps have been proven to be breeding grounds for Moslem fanatacism and anti-Hindu Hate. Certainly resembles what the Moslem world has pulled off here. Instead of Egypt providing these people with a home and land in the near empty northern Sinai they have been used as suicidal fodder for the dreams of their murderous and barbaric leaders. Good night all.

Give us another demonstration of your profound understanding of international law ,history and UN resolutions. FREE THE WORLD OF ISLAMIST TERROR

But while you are being all trendy and intellectual look up "Dhimmi".Also while you are at it look up the number of times the South African blacks called for "wars of annihilation"against the whites. I presume you will not mind being part of the future Islamic republic of south Asia. You know the one that is being advocated by the Islamists in Indonesia,Malaysia etc after all they claim Moslems were in Australia hundreds of years ago. Meanwhile have you considered leaving Aboriginal land to which you have NO rights (Australia was never Terra Nullis)then YOU can preach to the Israelis from the moral high ground,till then it is all hypocrisy with interesting selective morals and selective outrage.

"the mexicans werent terrorizing the Americans like the palestinians terrorize Israel" Thanks for declaring your ideology. No point in arguing with you. But for the readers, I think the rest of the world calls fighting for freedom and against an invader LIGITMATE RESISTANCE. The only time you will be happy is if history repeats itself. "50- On the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho the LORD said to Moses, 51 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you cross the Jordan into Canaan, 52 drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you."

Howdy Ernie; United Nations General Assembly Resolutions are non-binding and unenforceable and so are decisions by the International Court of Justice. You might as well use them for toilet paper. Only United Nations Security Council Resolutions are enforceable (which is seldom done) and they take precedence over UNGARs. The pertinent international law in this case is UNSCR 242 which was reaffirmed by UNSCR 338 and which calls for "achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;" There is no "right of return" mentioned and Israel is not singled out as the sole party responsible for achieving the "just settlement". Also, UNSCR 242 does not specify which refugees are being talked about. In addition to the 750,000 Palestinian refugees, there were about 860,000 Jews who were kicked out of various Arab countries in the region during the late 1940's and early 1950's. What about them? In any case, 90% of the original group of refugees are dead. So, what you are really talking about is their descendents. Israel and various Western countries absorbed the Jewish refugees decades ago and they now enjoy full citizenship in whatever country in which they reside. The Palestinian refugees who reside in various Arab states (with the sole exception of Jordan) are denied citizenship in those countries even when their descendents are born within their borders. In short, there is no such thing as "the right of return". You can kiss that dream goodbye forever and so can Mahmoud Abbas and the rest of the Palestinians.

this is another lie. 1. we do not exterminate pals. 2.we do inconvenience them to save jewish lives. 3. nazi karni you are obscene, as all of you arabs, you should drink your oil and be out of western world, you are NAZIS.

israel has returned gaza after destroying it and then the situation got out of control and they couldnt cope with it so they returned to the Palestians who have very few resources to rebuild destroyed Gaza. Pluss I"d like to see u build a country within a few 1000's acre prision.

Dorothy This situation only exists in OZ not the WB.

the real threat to our security are nations of peace.strong israel make our future guarantee

Kim, I wonder if you could answer this question for me. There are around 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank (real people. Not some dehumanized creatures that fit your stereotypes), including around 700,000 refugees whose ancestors fled during the 1948 war or were ethnically cleansed from what became Israel and were never allowed to return to their towns and villages. The question is: should these people a) be given their independent country, b) given full citizenship rights as their Jewish counterparts, or d) some other solution (e.g. further ethnic cleansing) should be found for them? Of course answering the question honestly requires that you stop your propagandizing and cliches for a second and think in human terms. Hopefully you can do it!

what the Palstians have the right to leave? hahha i can tell you have never been to the middle east. Millions of Palestians can barely go to the next village let alone abroad and the precentage that have gone have eiher gone illegaly or are from a grae minority.

Simon Fair enough. If you feel so disgusted JUST PACK YOUR BAGS AND LEAVE THE COUNTRY & BACK HERE TO THE U.K. I despise people who denigrate their own. It may be as you say, but the government will not allow things of this nature to manifest itself if indeed is as bad as you suggest. At present the Prime Minister and all his Ministers are damn busy to sort the whole quagmire. Just remember that it takes two to tango. For now the other side has done ZILCH! And until they do this state of affairs will continue. Let us not put all the blame on your people. Nuff said! Observer

Hi, S, Glad to see you again. Today the meowing cats must be around in the street. I miss Tulip and the others. I have received something in my e-mail box. Was it yours?

Your name is English. But Xavier, where is it from? Israel is no apartheid. Arabs have their own countries, and now they have Gaza to build their state. All of them should move there. Why should you have the same rights as a Jew in Israel? You are not empowered to dictate Israel's laws. Blah blah blah. Arabs declared war on Israel because they wanted to push the Jews to the sea. They thought they could finish the job in a week or so. But they were defeated. If Arabs were respectful to their neighboring countries, nothing would have been destroyed. If your family left Israel, it was on their own accord. And why didn't they go back in 1949, when Israel allowed the Arabs to come back? Anyway, you have to blame the Arab leaders for what happened to your family. You could have had a state in 1948 and later on in several ocassions. As for racism, I remind you that is your Islamofascist brethren who want to exterminate the Jews just for being Jews. Jerusalem has always been the Jews' capital. The Arabs are invaders. Go and rob your cat of his bell.

This article describes a situation that is shameful. I don't know how anyone can defend this.

befor start of intifada 1oo.ooo thousands of palestinains from the w.b and gaza could come freely inside of israel for job and the business and all kind of entertaiment and some of them even they could stay in israel becuase of the distinction of jobs and houme.my qeustion to gideon levy what did gos wrong .we as israeli knows better than erevry body else what did gos wrong.becuase we saw it we felt it and we lasted our family and our friendes by barberian act of suicide bomber. they did no.t give us another alternativ to secure our land and our nation against our enemy.the wall and the check poin almost did his jobs.knpw who ever want to call us apartheid.who care.we believe they are wrong.our enemies are teaf and biand

This "Concerned American" sounds quite like Karni. Are we dealing with yet another dual personality?

Hi Kim You are doing an excellent job,up many notches! I cannot stay too long. Thought I's drop by for a short while.At least it is a bit quieter without those CATS trying to scratch your eyes out additionally that "Fly by night" Realistic. Perhaps he is still lurking under a pseudonym? It was a bit too much and I don't blame Tulip for giving it a rest.So many of them!!! Nevermind,it doesn't seem to have affected you I'm glad to see. Keep Up The Good Work S

SA blacks wanted to participate fully in SA society, not burn it down.

Jeff- How is the safety of illegal settlers in the West Bank a threat to national security? That seems to me a contradiction in terms... Dutch

How is the safety of illegal settlers in the West Bank a threat to national security? This Israeli ban seems like another punitive against the Palestinian people. Shame on them! Dutch

You are right : the killing of jewish child by arab terrorist is awfull and horrible thing. But, to be honest, you must remember that for each jewish child killed, IDF killed seven palestinian children. So, who are the worse children's killers ? Grand-sons of shoah survivors kill seven more children than ugly hamas terrorists : that's the result of the anachronic, illegal and inhuman colonization that destroy Israel soul. Stop it before it's too late !!

Karni What are you talking about.I understand your feelings and concern for your palestinian brethren. We have yet to hear from the likes of you, condemnation for the attrocities perpetrated by the THUGS IN THE PAL.IF THEY SUFFER IT IS SELF INFLICTED, ESPECIALLY BY THEIR SUPERIORS--SO-CALLED. Wake up to reality who ever you are. Observer

www.israeli-state-terrorism.org/matrixofterror.html www.intothelight.info/ozz/the_war_against_terror/index.html

Anyway, I wonder why separate roads is a punishment for the "Pals"? Aren't you guys constantly the mantra that Israelis are so bad to the "Pals". Then to be separated is not a punishment but a gift for the "Pals". Driving on different roads the cannot see Israelis.

You are so right Dorothy, Sharon is the BIG excuse of Hamas and Hamas is the BIG excuse of Sharon. One gives the shield to the other to hide behind! You are the sweet voice of reason Dorothy please sing us some more of your sweet melodies! Regards Danite

What do you call what the "Pal" terrorists are doing to the Israelis? A terrorist is somebody who terrorizes the people. After so many indiscriminate attacks, why do you the Israelis feel? And you call a collective punishement the fact that israel has checkpoint and separated roads. Reading what the terrorists supporters here say, I think it would be better for the Israelis to terrorize the "Pals".

"I favor Taba, January 2001, with the exchanges illustrated in the Geneva Accord. So if we know the answers ... let`s do it!" What you or I favor is irrelevant. "Let's do it" You must be kidding. Tell that to the Palestinians.

No, you are wrong there. I don't want to make you scare. But Matthew said what I told you.

IMHO ... The Final Settlement will come down to the strick interpretation of UNGA194 (so-called Right of Return) for separating al-Quds out of Jerusalem. I'm outta here for about 8hrs! Later!

how do you justify all the JEWISH TERRORIST attacks on children, civilians, destructions of homes etc etc

First of all, dont talk about the name of Mr Abu Eid, because many arabs (including me) have western names, and it doesnt mean we dont have roots to Palestine. Then, yes, Israel do Apartheid, and we as palestinians in Israel have less rights than the jews inmigrants. What arabs did in 1948 with some cases, are nothing comparated with the 536 villages that Israel destroyed. When someone born outside, they suffer Al Nakba too. I have nepfews in Europe that were born there because my cousins are refugees and they cant came to Israel, and they suffer too. You too are racists justificating practices that never a democratic state could have. The palestinians of Jerusalem were there before the jewish inmigrants, but now is true, they have less rights than the occupiers... stop the racism, let's live together in the same land!

How is the safety of illegal settlers in the West Bank a threat to national security? This Israeli ban is nothing more than a crime against the Palestinian people and their freedom of movement. Those illegal settlers in the West Bank should be booted out of there. They are the real threat to the national security Dutch

Every person with a bit of insight in the situation here knows that Gideon Levy is correct in his article. Road 443 is winding through the North-West area of the Jerusalem governorate, where over ten villages are surrounded by the wall. From the roofs of Beit Duqu one can see the highway, but it is out of reach for the inhabitants of the area. I went by private car from Betlehem to Beit Hanina (northern part of East-Jerusalem, part of the municipality of Jerusalem. Some 15 kilometres. It took us 1 hour and 45 minutes. The DCO checkpoint was closed. At the main checkpoint between Jerusalem and Bethlehem, when it was finally our turn, our driver (and myself) misinterpreted the flashlight signals of the kiddo with the M-16. That entitled us to two minutes of humiliating screaming and insults through the car window on behalf of the soldier, and then a long "security check" of our passports and ID's (meaning they end up on the table in the office for a while). Welcome to the only democracy in the Middle-East. Welcome to the "most well disciplined army on Earth". Does this daily reality help Israel's' security concerns ? Nope, it is just creating more frustration on Palestinian side.

Xavier, Can you elaborate on how you have been victimized by Israel's founding (Nakba you called it)? My spanish is pretty poor but doing some Internet searches it looks like you are Christian, born in Chile but I can't tell whether your parents were born there or not. I do see a lot of stuff in your writtings accusing Israel of geonocide. Are you the same Xavier Abu Eid? If yes please elaborate on your experiences. (P.S. Please if you are fabricating make sure the stuff cannot be verified. Do not follow Edward Saiid's example)

The old adage things must get much worse before they get better is provn true once again. Israeli brutality and seemingly endless deviousness seems to only grow by leaps and bound with each passing day. Gideon Levy paints a VERY disturbing picture of daily life for Palestinians--and the truth be known, he only touched the surface. I just don't know in what part of the Zionist master plan--with all these evil measures against the natives--does the value of the HUMAN BEING being collectively punished come into play? The obvious answer is of course not but that's really news or anything new. I want Jews and I mean ALL Jews from all over the world to step back a minute, take a deep collective breath, shake off your ideological bent, shake off your xenophobia, shake off the victimhood chip on your shoulder, shake off all the brainwashing you been fed by Zionists and finally shake off all the perceptions you have of Israel. Then go back and read Gideon Levy's article. Then go look in the mirror and ask yourself with all the wonderful accomplishment Jews have attained, from individuals mostly in the past century, in the areas of the arts, medicine and science, WHERE DOES APARTHEID AND OCCUPATION FIT IN? How could Jews hold up the mantle of being the most educated, most enlightened in terms of proggessive ideas of equality and justice for all, at the same time remain silent of WHAT THEIR OWN ARE DOING in their name? In any case, thank God for Gideon Levy to show the true face of Jewish humanity. Otherwise, in all honesty, by all these cruel and evil measures against us, it's hard to see ones humanity when all you see coming from them is brutality. There is hope when some Jews do speak up, do tell the truth and do speak truth to power. I just wish there was more of them! The irony is, ending the occupation will save Israel more than it will save the Palestinians. We will endure but what good is it to inherit a state and build more illegal settlements if you lose your soul?

I (reluctantly) do miluim in the Occupied Territories in the Gizrat Binyamin area (i.e. around Ramallah). We do jeep patrols to protect the "brave pioneers" and their caravans and we drive around the empty roads that Gideon Levy describes. As an immigrant from the UK, I found it a real eye opener. And I have to say that most of the native Israelis in my unit seemed to find the whole situation pretty distasteful. A common theme was that we would rather be with our families rather than sitting up in the hills in the middle of November. There seems to be no security rationale for what is going on up there. The aim seems to be to make the lives of the Palestinians as miserable as possible in order to force them to up sticks and leave. This just drives them into the arms of the extremists. Journalists like Gideon Levy are rare in Israel - unfortuately. There is enough room for two states for two peoples. Israel is strong enough to make concessions, but both sides need to understand more about the other. Articles like this can only help.

First came the expulsion of 700,000( in the west they called transfer) then came the total destruction of 400 villages completely wiped of the map, then came securit measures for Israeli Arabs that lasted until 69, where an Israeli Arab will need a permit to spend the night in a different village, then came confiscation of land for G-d and country to build security settlements, then came the check-points and collective punishment, then came stealing of the olive harvest and the killing of sheeps. In between there was the masacre of Hebron in the mosque by a religious Jew, the the attempted arson and buring of the Aqsa Mosque, the tunnel, now the Wall, that zigzag like a snake, and now of course Special Roads for Jews, where Jews use the good road, the "Arabs" use the back road. Ah of course I forgot the Za'ater which is forbidden to Palestinians. Frankly nothing suprise me from a sick society, a society that is driven with hate and anger and dislike for others and for themselves too. If Israel was a person, it will need to be admitted to a mental hospital, locked up. I am sure that some immigrant from somewhere will come up with something else. Nothing surprise me, but what surprise me the most is the total silence we hear from the Jewish community in the US. There is a total absence of any sense of morality as if Jews lost it all.

Mr.Botha MY ADDENDUM IS PRECISELY WHAT YOU DESCRIBED. MAINLY WHAT YOU ACCOMPLISHED BY TURNING THE COUNTRY INTO A PROSPEROUS AND BEAUTIFUL PLACE AND NOW? ALAS... Observer

i am familiar with the hispanic problem and i understand that it is not strictly a race issue. i replied in this vein because i feel i need to hit back at those who hit at israel and the jews. i believe in the words :judge not lest ye be judged.

Dear Mr.PW Botha The many times I have made this comparison? Many believe me. Thank you for putting it into perspective. Just look at the conditions in S.Africa now.Is it better than before? I say not! Yes, you can have Democracy and Apartheid. Observer

"Unless you are Matthew, who wants the US under sharia law. Why don`t you take it a look?" You are trying to play the politics of fear. Fear doesn't lead to good decisions, only quick reactions: out of the frying pan into the fire.

the mexicans werent terrorizing the Americans like the palestinians terrorize Israel

Karni - when I was last in Jerusalem about two years ago, Fatah or one of its offshoots murdered an Israeli who was just going for a jog in the streets. When it was discovered that he was an Israeli Arab, the Palestine Authority issued an apology to his family. You can bet your life on it that no such apology has ever been issued to the families of Jews murdered by Palestinian terrorists. Then there is the story of Sirhan Sirhan (a distant relative of Bobby Kennedy's assassin) who was involved in the brutal murder of 5 people on Kibbutz Metzger in 2002. This Kibbutz is on the Israeli side of the border with the West Bank and its members lived side by side in peace with their Palestinian Arab neighbours for years until Sirhan cut his way through the wire fence of the Kibbutz, shot and killed Tirza Damri and Yitzchak Dori. He then burst into the home of Revital Ohayon who was reading her two sons Matan age 5, and Noam age 4, a bedtime story , and murdered them as they huddled on the bed. The official Palestinian reaction to this atrocity? The PA made this barbarian a martyr after he was killed several months later whilst hiding in Tularam. The Palestinians even named a soccer team after this monster. If I, as a Jew whose family came originally from Hebron, wanted to buy back the ancient ancestral home of my family, my vendor would be subjected to the death penalty under Palestinian law for selling property to a Jew. I would suggest therefore, that before some of you start lecturing on discrimination and making ridiculous statements about the mental state of others who comment on this talback that you open your eyes and examine the real nature of discrimination and the apartheid policies on the Palestinian side. Listen to the sermons that spew forth hatred that are broadcast on the official PA media. Of course, these are all in contravention of all manner of human decency as well as the various peace efforts, which if adhered to by Arafat and Abu Mazen would have brought an end to the occupation long ago.

Howdy Azzam; On the contrary, everything that Israel does is based on her security needs. Israel will impose draconian measures on the Palestinians as she sees fit to protect her citizens from Palestinian terrorist attacks. There is no other reason. Israel has no plans to "ethnically cleanse" the West Bank of Palestinians. If she had wanted to do so, it would have been done by force a long time ago. From what I understand most Israelis do not support the old Zionist dream of Genesis 15:18. In that same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: It just isn't practical to slaughter millions of Arabs to make that dream come true. No, I think that the Palestinians in the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip are there to stay and I think that everyone with a brain realizes this. Therefore, the best thing to do is to physically separate the Israelis from the Palestinians (which is what the security fence/wall is doing) and let the Palestinians have their state and fend for themselves. However, neither side will get everything that they want. Israel can do this unilaterally, but it would be better if the PA can come to an agreement with Israel, but the PA will have to drop or modify some of its demands like the Green Line as the border, the "right of return", and East Jeruselum as the capitol of Palestine.

dear mr.murray there are times when one despairs of your arguments as it self apparent that you have somewhat limited knowledge. terrorists do not walk about with large badges or silly hats saying hammas come and get me - do they? so assuming that they dont,one is left with little choice but to check everybody and that is where the problem starts in urban warfare civilians and terorists merge and one has to tackle both to get at the other on a serious note though i do agree that the general palestinian public does then suffer,but this is the price to be paid. until we have a peace partner who will check the people passing into israel we are forced to do it ourselves please do not expect abbas to do anything -it is not because he cant - it is because he wont and there basically lays the problem at any border there are checks and if the palestinians are not going to do their job then we will do it for them by the way despite my public face i am no ogre,after 40 years fighting i am merely telling you as i see it - others may throw you a different line bm

Right on, my friend! You do know "land for peace" is an Israeli concept. Israel would give Palestine some Palestinian land if they give Israel peace. The Allon Road concepts soon followed. I favor Taba, January 2001, with the exchanges illustrated in the Geneva Accord. So if we know the answers ... let's do it!

No, I think they don't, because they are being oppressed by their own people and because they are so racist that want to exterminate the Jews. That is to say, Arabs are worse than whites in South Africa, they are more like Hitler. You are right about Arabs being criminally oppressed. That's what their leaders are doing with them, since they are using their own people for terrorist and business purposes. [berreón]

Aside from the connection between safety and prosperity, making the lives of Palestinians an enduring hell, does not work for the sake of Jewish SAFETY either. It also takes Palestinian's attention away from these causes within: armed gangs engaging in tribal warfare, anarchy, corruption.

Xavier, Please tell us more about yourself. You claim to have been exiled by the Israel's creation in 1948 which you call Al Nikba. Checking the Internet shows that you're christian born on Chile. From what I can find on your family's history you were in no way impacted by the events in 1948. I do see lots of anti-Israel hatefull stuff in spanish. Please do tell us your history. We'll see if you are more truthfull than Edward Saiid.

Is Xavier an Arab name?

An Arab is a foreigner to israel. Which country in the world considers foreigners and its citizens to be equal? Israel, as any other country, is empowered to have the laws it wants. I cannot believe Israel made it impossible for your family to live where you say, because Israel persecutes just terrorists. Weren't your leaders and terrorists so stubborn, you could have had a state for so long as the Israelis. But your people don't want a state. I understand this is very bothering for peaceful Arabs to get through checkpoints and all the stuff. But I also understand the Israeli point of view. It is not the matter to let the Arabs murder Israelis. So you are right to blame somebody, but you should blame those thugs the Arabs have for rulers. The irgun, etc. were not terrorists but a militia the Jews had to make up forced by the circumstances, because the Arabs have been slaughtering Jews long way before the "occupation", long way even before the foundation of Israel. You sound like a youth and this might be the reason why you don't know some facts. Why don't you read what the Arabs did to the Jews in Hebron and Haifa, for instance?

"A better solution is for Izraelis to abide by the will of the international community and pull out it`s invasion troops from the west bank and either take the jewisj settlers with them or give the settlers a palestinains citizenship and they can stay." Yes Azzam, in principle you are right...but can you or the international community assure the security of the Israelis from the palestinians that want tel-aviv? Hmmm, i guess its not so simple to just end the occupation is it?

"A better solution is for Izraelis to abide by the will of the international community and pull out it`s invasion troops from the west bank and either take the jewisj settlers with them or give the settlers a palestinains citizenship and they can stay." Yes Azzam, in principle you are right...but can you or the international community assure the security of the Israelis from the palestinians that want tel-aviv? Hmmm, i guess its not so simple to just end the occupation is it?

Listen, stop comparing Jewish atrocities to Palestinian suffering to make Israel feel guilty. The two events are uncomparable. Notice how German wanted to exterminate Jews, while Israel wants to keep Palestinians out of Israel, not exterminate them. Enduring hell doesn't mean death for palestinians, it means teaching pals a good lesson for terrorism!

"THE ARABS ARE NOT THE POOR, DOWNTRODDEN BLACKS" - Meir Weinstein Correct, they are poor, downtrodden browns. Gideon Levy is wrong as well. What is going on in the West Bank is not Apartheid. It is collective punishment and criminal oppression.

Here's an idea that is not so novel. Land for PEACE.

The US Mexican border is an international border and the US has every right to put restricrions on its border. The equivalent would be if US invaded Mexico and built a wall with Vera Cruz and a few other cities on the wrong side. Israel has a choice it can keep all the land but the residents get equal rights and a vote, or it gets out of the land it gained in 1967. The concept of keeping the land, treating the Jewish residents (settelers) as Israeli citizens with votes and finnacial benefits and special roads, and meanwhile the Arab residents have no vote and are treated worse in all sorts of ways, is not viable in the long run.

So you read Herzl's books? I am surprised and skeptical. Actually, In "The Jewish State" Herzl sounds like a man with great anticipation but with few mistakes in his predictions. In 1890's he was sure that Israel would be established. He surely did'nt expect it to occur because of the holocaust. He also thought that Jews and Arabs would live side by side peacefully. This was definitely a folly. Nevertheless, his most important prediction became true, a jewish state.

With language like that no wonder you get alot of grief on this board!!! Hello!!!!!

"there is no doubt that that the vast majority of palestinians are innocent of taking part in attacks on israel" -BM #7 Why then the collective punishment in violation of the Geneva convention? It is only a matter of time before Israeli soldiers and officers are brought before international justice to answer for their crimes against the innocent civilians.

The U.S. battled Mexico, won the war, and captured Texas. Ever since, Texas has been subject to U.S. law not Mexican law. Anyways, I am talking about modern times. Mexican citizens are foreign people and they are not entitled to U.S. rights. The border is there to prevent illegal activity as I mentioned previously. Legal immigration to U.S. is a whole different stroy. Israel's wall is there to prevent illegal activity/terrorism from flooding Israel. The wall is there to protect Israel from foreign Palestinians. Are you familiar with the concept of borders between countries? seems like you are 'nt.

There are some of you who are whining about Gideon's article who apparently can't look beyond it and realize that the current situation that has been created on the roads in the west bank (which is an accurate metaphor for the entire conflict) is a completely unacceptable "NON-SOLUTION" for all sane people. Do you Israelis want to continue this conflict FOREVER? Instead of getting caught up in defending this "NON-SOLUTION" of this mess on the roads, why don't you see a broader picture? If you have a hole in your roof, are you going to patch it with a caustic substance that might keep the water out temporarily, but will eventually eat through more of your roof? This is NOT AN ACTUAL SOLUTION. The situation on the roads (and elsewhere) should not be defended as thus. ASK YOURSELF - To fight "terrorism", is it PRUDENT to spawn all manner of undemocratic and apartheid-like policies and procedures COLLECTIVELY upon the Palestinians? Or does this just create more radicalism and "terrorism"? When people are fighting for a legitimate political cause (like the Palestinians are), can they be labeled merely as "terrorists" based on the weapons and methods they use? Are Israelis simply just "better-armed terrorists"? What can Israeli leaders do to evaporate the CAUSES of Palestinian "terrorism"? Why are these "terrorists" here?

If you are really a Westernern, you have reasons to be concerned. Unless you are Matthew, who wants the US under sharia law. Why don't you take it a look?: "Jordan convicts six of planning to attack local, Israeli targets Court documents said the ring was plotting a series of attacks on Israelis and Westerners at a number of sites, including an unspecified hotel, a restaurant in the city of Irbid, some 90 km (55 miles) north of the capital, and tourist buses. Furthermore, the suspects were accused of receiving an unspecified amount of funds from an Islamic Jihad member in Saudi Arabia. The charge sheet said the prime suspect, Ali Mamdouh al-Omari of Jordan, hatched the plot with fellow defendant Mohammed Sabri al-Jundi, a Palestinian. Both men allegedly espoused the ideology of "takfiri" - the killing of infidels to Islam. They recruited the other plotters." Read more http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/637267.html

The parallel is as follows: The Americans seized the Indians' land. The "Pals" want to seize the Israelis' land. The Americans were killing Indians to rob them of their land. The "Pals" are murdering Israelis to rob them of their land. Israel doesn't have to make the "Pals" Israeli citizens. "Pals" say they are "Pals" and that they want a state. They now have the land to build a state. As for working and living in Israel, I don't know what Israel will do,but I think they shouldn't be allowed to enter Israel. That's not for the sake of discrimination,just basic precaution. So that's what you want for the "Pals": Israeli citizenship and autonomy on their own land. This is very clever. They are autonomous in their land and, at the same time, to decide what Israel has to do.

"It is also a sign of mental illness to repeatedly criticize Israel for a panapoly of offenses while continuing to ignore the severe offenses occuring round the world in places like West Paupa, the Congo, Nigeria, Tibet, Nepal, Kashmir, Chechneya, Columbia, Mnynamar, Southern Thailand, Liberia, Egypt, Saudia Arabia,... and the list goes on." In other words ... pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. or If one must discuss sin and evil ... discuss someone else's and leave you to yours?

And who's the civilian? If Israel could know the a civilian from a terrorist, I suppose things would be different. If those civilians think they are being bothered by the terrorists, why don't they protest against them?

Throughing a bunch of unsubstantiated ridicolous acquisations does not a logical argument make. There has been no indiscrimnate and systematic killing of Palestinian Civilians by Israel. You might as well repeat Arafat's statements on Israel using poison gas and depleted uranium against Palestinians. Your argument justifying Palestinians killing Jews as some sort of preventive measure is simply a mechanism to justify murder and totally immoral. You might as well plead momentary insanity. You are obviously totally ignorant of the actual conditions of Palestinians and their history. Palestinians are worse off than blacks under apartheid? Next you're going to claim that they are worse off than Jews under Nazis or did you already make that argument too? Get real! Palestinians as reported by the UN are better off than the Arabs of the surrounding contries even after a five year war. Palestinians have initiated this war and are suffering because of it. When they realize that wars will not get them anywhere then we might have a peacefull solution.

The Minutemen are armed only because the Mexican drug lords have threatened them. The Minutemen have a strict code of nonviolent conduct, and only use camera's and binoculars to spot the illegals entering my land, then they inform ICE regarding the situation. Illegals have brought leprosy, Hepatitis A & C, caused outbreaks of TB, outbreaks so bad that teachers have to be checked every year, instead of every five years. 30% of California's prison population is comprised of violent and non violent illegals. More than 60 hospitals have been closed in Los Angeles because they are forced to care for illegals who do not pay their medical bills, this threatens the taxpayers. Our schools are over crowded and many of these students are illegal. The illegals have cost the Californian economy more than 7 billion dollars annually with health, welfare, foodstamps, education for individuals who violate two federal laws by entering and working in the land illegally. I left California because of this problem, and many are fleeing because of the problems illegals have caused in the state. And don't play the race card, my maiden name is Candelaria, and most Hispanics who entered the land legally are really ticked regarding illegals.

Good Work! What scary is that some here don't seem to know what scarasm and satire are.

"Those separate roads had the aim of preventing the "Pals" from murdering Israelis" A better solution is for Izraelis to abide by the will of the international community and pull out it's invasion troops from the west bank and either take the jewisj settlers with them or give the settlers a palestinains citizenship and they can stay.

Yes ... they are!

Jeff, all of these draconian measures have nothing to do with the violence. Fact is, palestinains have lived a horrendous life under the occupation long before Hamas. The real reason behind this is very simple. To make life difficult. This plot has been most successful. 'As far back as 1895, Herzl himself posited the following position: "We must expropriate gently..We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country."'

"I guess you don`t have separated roads in America because the Indians or the Mexicans don`t murder you when you are driving on them." Yes, there is a parallel between the historical US treatment of the indigenous population and today's treatment of Palestinians by Israel. Guarantee: you won't have to worry about being killed on the roads if you head for a more complete similarity: 1. Make the Palestinians citizens of Israel and give them the vote; 2. Allow them to live and work anywhere in Israel without discrimination; 3. At the same time give them almost complete autonomy on their own land. Then Israel will finally be up to where the US was 150 years ago. But if you do all that, and still want to talk about what happened long before the lifetime of anyone alive today, you may find yourself being accused of genocide in ancient Canaan. That obviously would not be fair. Would it be useful or helpful?

"Doesn`t Gideon Levy ever get tired of being so self-righteous?" He is not self-righteous. This is the way he makes his money. EU pays him for writing lies about Israel.

"Palestinians are foreign people, why should they be entitled to Israeli rights? Should Mexicans be entitled U.S.A. rights as well?" Duh!!! Latino citizens of southern states were mexicans. But when the US invaded and annexed those states, Mexican latinos became US cititzens. DUH!!!!!

Good post, could not agree more. Regardless of what Israel does or does not do, the world will condemn her. The hypocrisy is so obvious. Why doesn't the Arab world absorb its refugees, as Israel did? Because they want to use their brethren as cannon fodder to avenge their humiliation. Israel, like any other country has a right to defend herself.

"texas vigilantes have taken pick up trucks filled with good ol boys.and who are they after? not terrorists as in israel but mexican poor seeking work in the united states. i would not want to be a mexican on the receiving end of the wrath of these good ol boys." And just what does Tex-Mex have to do with Is-astine? Didn't your mother every say ... "so if your friends just off a bridge are you stupid enough to do it too?" There is a much better answer that the majority of the world ... including a majority in Israel already know ... leave the territory. It's not yours and hasn't been for 2000 years!

Javier, you are so funny... why a jew from UK have more right in this land than a palestinian from Jerusalem? If im in Chile, its because Israel made impossible to live in Palestine, from where we are and most of my family still live. They suffer everyday the israeli apartheid, and they cant say anything because they dont have right to vote, even if there is settlers in lands of my family that shoot at my town every week and nobody do nothing (and they have the right to vote). Yes, there was palestinian attacks in Israel, but the occupation is older. Also, its not diferent than the terrorist acts of Haganah, Stern and Irgun (you dont remember)... ah! this 90% of palestinian civilians that dead in the last 5 years were not killed by terrorists with military uniform? what they were doing in the West Bank? We accept the right to Israel to exist since 1988, but Israel continue the settlements, the roads and the wall in our territory (not beyond the green line)... and even having a moderate palestinian government, that truce about achieve a peace agreement with Tel Aviv's government, the settlement policy continue without stop or respect to any basic manual of international law. Javier, dont join racist policies and make the diference: We have to live together, but with respect, not with foreign occupation, not with vilence and not with Apartheid.

If this is the first time you've read this post, I suggest you read it thoroughly for a few days before letting posters sway your opinions. Many folks here have more passion than knowledge and some, I'm talking about you Realistic, have shown themselves to be incapable of honestly evaluating statements that contradict their presently held convictions. I do applaud your ability to question your own previously held notions, but I do also urge reading folks postings witha grain of salt.

The true nazis of these days and the ones using nazi arguments. Yonathan is right. It is the "Pals" who want to torment the Jews. It is the "Pal" clerics who are calling jihad to exterminate the Jews; it is Hamas, the PIG, the al-aqsa martyrizers, etc. who want to apply the final solution in the ME. They are the heirs of mufti Husseini, Hitler's ally, who suggested the Führer apply the final solution in Palestine and spent the war in Berlin recruiting Arabs for the nazi army.

It isn't any more difficult to distinguish them in the West Bank then it is in the rest of the world. The situation does not excuse Israel from its inhumane behaviour. You said "Correct Mr. Levy. We must change the system. There should be one road for murderers and assasins and those who aid, abet and support them and another one for the rest of us. And I nominate you to spend a few weeks hitchhiking around the West Bank to determine who`s who."

Every where in the world, when you take possession of the land of another people (in the name of god, or racial superiority, or , or else...), you are bound to meet a sharp resistance, like in occupied territories. Then you call this resistance "rebellion", or "terrorism", and you oppress even more the natives from the land you are colonizing by force. Apartheid is just the inevitable fruit of colonization. If you can, you try to solve the problem by a genocide (American natives)or an ethnic cleansing (Bosnia, Kosovo, Tibet...). But the world won't let Israel going this far, even though if he has tolerated more from this state than from any other, thanks to US jewish lobby. And in the end, recent history learns us that colonizators always lost, and have to leave the stolen land with just the shame and a mountain of corpses that could have been avoided left, like in Indonesia, Algeria, Vietnam, Gaza, and soon in western bank. Same old story, same old blues again...

Here's a novel idea ... why not LEAVE territory roads to the Palestinians by LEAVING their territory?

I can understand Israel imposing Draconian travel restrictions on the Palestinians under the circumstances. The trouble with it is that 50,000 civilians have to be inconvenienced in order to thwart one terrorist jerk. This can't go on forever. The best thing to do is to complete the security fence/wall which will include the large Israeli settlement blocks and all of Jeruselum on the Israeli side of the fence and withdraw the Israeli settlements which lie on the Palestinian side of it including all IDF units. Unfortunately, there are dozens of Israeli settlements on the "wrong" side of the fence with perhaps as many as 80,000 Israelis living there. Oh God, this is going to be ten times worse than the recent "disengagement" plan. It's going to be painfull for everybody, but Israel will wind up with all of Jeruselum and about 8% of the West Bank. The Palestinians will be left with 92% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip. Then, nail the doors shut so as to keep the Israelis and Palestinians physically separated. After that, Israel will no longer be responsible for the Palestinians and they will have to sink or swim on their own. The best part is that the terrorists will find it to be virtually impossible to carry out their attacks on Israel because that won't be able to get through the fence without martyring themselves first in the razor wire.

Those separate roads had the aim of preventing the "Pals" from murdering Israelis, as it happened when roads were not separated. I guess you don't have separated roads in America because the Indians or the Mexicans don't murder you when you are driving on them. Mexicans don't blow themselves up murdering Americans. So why are you building that apartheid wall to separate you from the Mexicans.

Rose, "the tiring security argument" tell that one to the mothers, fathers, sisters and husbands of the kids that were killed last week waiting at a bus stop.

"And you are saying: let us torment the Palestinians and make their life an enduring hell for the sake of Jewish prosperity" For the sake of Jewish SAFETY, Karni, anyone who tries to murder Jews and anyone who aids, abets and encourages deserve to have their lives made an enduring hell. But why should I exaggerate? Life under the PA, with its anarchy, armed gangs, and tribal warfare is the REAL enduring hell.

Morocco in the middle of occupied Western Sahara. Britain in the middle of Belfast to separate Catholics and Protestants. India in Kashmire. Saudi Arabia in Yemen, etc.

I am not exactly sure what to make out of what you just said. First off, I would question if you are indeed really israeli... So you think we enjoy dehumanizing the Palestinians?? hmmm..."something that Israelis, especially soldiers and settlers, enjoy a lot"...U r not israeli...becuase an Israeli knows that most people do not enjoy dehumanizing palestinians...come on...get real! Especially soldiers??? have u served in the Army?? what unit?? of coarse there are a minority of fanatics (settlers, soldiers, or just people in israel proper) who r extremly dangerous...but u can not just dehumanize 'Israelis, and especially soldiers and settlers". Maybe the ones in Hebron or Bat Ayain...that i would agree with...but most settlers r there for non ideological reasons...they r there because the housing is subsidized and cheap. I am now trying to think of all the israelis i know and have come across...and im trying to ask myself if they would "enjoy dehumanizing Palestinians"...hmmm maybe 1 or 2.(which is too much but far from most). "It is really very difficult to find a single Palestinian in the occupied territory who doesn`t have a certain mental or psychological illness as a result of Israeli behavior, which transcends reality." true...but what about the Israeli psyche??...being an Israeli...im sure you must know about this.. where r u from?? we have had some dishonest people onthis forum claiming to be something they r not...where did u serve??? Nothing personal...Kfir

It is obvious that if the violence ends, the Palestinians will be flying around the area in Corvettes and BMW's, making a buck and dressing nice. I remember what things were like before the intifada, both economies were doing well. As a matter of fact I heard on the radio today that the Palstinian economy has grown byclose to 5% in the last year. "Proof Positive" Stop the violence and I gaurantee a chicken in every pot, and a car in every driveway.

Karni You spoke very well and applaud your statements. Here in the States most Jews are progressive and supported the civil right movemnent in the 60's and are extremely sensitive to any discrimination based on race, ethnicity or religion. The have also championed the human rights of Russian Jews and non Jews during the soviet era. As an American I am really shocked to read what I am reading. There are roads for Jews only; is this true? I read the word "transfer" popping up again and again. Isn't that ethnic cleansing? I read the phrase "FINAL solution" for the Palestinains, a horrifying de.ja vu? It makes me sick to the stomach. This is the first time for me to look at the reader's comments and this has changed my life. I will no longer send my donation to Israel; I will send it the Palestinian. No more deceits and lies; our president must wake up and read some of he comments posted heree. May he will also have a change in heart.

It is also a sign of mental illness to repeatedly criticize Israel for a panapoly of offenses while continuing to ignore the severe offenses occuring round the world in places like West Paupa, the Congo, Nigeria, Tibet, Nepal, Kashmir, Chechneya, Columbia, Mnynamar, Southern Thailand, Liberia, Egypt, Saudia Arabia,... and the list goes on. Folks on this forum regularly criticise Irsael using words such as "the worst..." "the most..." "the only...". When words such as these are used, the writers, by their own words, have these other places in mind and are making delusional (or simply dishonest) comparisons.

As far as I know, Israel is not in Chile. As for the Arabs on jihad against the Jews, they'd better go and live in Saudi Arabia or Yemen. They say israel are unkind to them, so the further the better. And you say that the security is not the main problem for Israel. Do you deny the Arab terrorists are committing attacks and murdering Israelis? If that is so, you should inform yourself for starters. Oh, I see you have no hint. Israel doesn't have to make people from other countries equal. it is the countries where those foreigners are from, which have to give them rights. If you live in Chile, which country has to give you rights? France? We know what happened in South Africa. The white minority had the black majority oppressed and exploited them in their own country. This is not the case of the Arabs. They are not Israelis, Israel is not oppressing or exploiting them. On the contrary, it is those Arabs who want to murder the Israelis and rob them of their land. If you are from Chile, why should you have the right to vote for the Knesset?

According to anti-Israeli logic, the u.s./mexican border is also an apartheid wall. How racist!!! Or is it? Actually the U.S. does'nt need illegal drugs, weapons, prostitutes and immigrants flooding U.S. territory. That's why the "apartheid" wall is there, to stop them! Same thing with Israel. The wall is there to prevent terrorists and all other threats.

Haven't the left in Israel figured it out yet? Are they that thick? I would trade the convenience of all the arabs in the world and then some, just to save the life of one Jew, let alone thousands. I believe Kineret, Matat, and Oz Ben-Meir would agree. It appears to me that Gideon just doesn't feel that these are 'his kind of Jews' and that Israel should fade into his surreal vision of dream-stuff, in a world where Arab national convictions are of supreme importance. It is the Gideons of the world that have become the unwitting partners in the shedding of Jewish blood.

Israel does'nt care what label you give it. Whether you label it Apartheid/racist/fundamentalist state, it's a democracy that protects ITS PEOPLE, NOT ITS NEIGHBORS. Palestinians are foreign people, why should they be entitled to Israeli rights? Should Mexicans be entitled U.S.A. rights as well? I don't think so. The truth is Israeli justice is centuries ahead of its Arab neighbors. Anti-Israelis try to demonize Israel with every microscopic detail, while they ignore Saudi Women who are essentially slaves to their male authority.

I am grateful for Mr. Levy's honesty and courage. I wish more American officials would read him. Perhaps then the US can have a more reasonable policy towards Israel in particular and the Middle East in general

Yonatan, the Nazis used the same argument you are using to exterminate Jews. They said if exterminating teh Jews was what it took to achieve German unity and strength, then be it. And you are saying: let us torment the Palestinians and make their life an enduring hell for the sake of Jewish prosperity.

Blacks used to travel between their towns and villages freely, had access to food, to water, to employment. However, the Palestinians can't travel from town to town, can't have access to food and water, can't travel abroad. They are forced into huge detention camps. How could you compare the two situations. SA was paradise compared to What is happening today in Hebron and Nablus and Ramallah..where Palestinian children are forced to climb rugged mountains to reach school, hospitals, etc. I travelled to the West Bank last week, and what I saw was really a horro movie, except that it is reality.

The Palestinians are also acting to prevent murder of their civilians by Jews by killing Jews in the hope that this would make Jews think twice before killing Palestinians. And for the sake of honesty, we have to remember that Jews are persecuting, repressing, occupying and brutalizing the Palestinians. There is no symmetry here.

The advantages of a peace deal, for the Palestinians, are: 1)community assets can be spent on civilian, not military, needs, 2)fixed, internationally recognized borders, 3)regularized interstate relations, 4)normal, as opposed to emergency/wartime, governance. So long as Palestinians can't bring themselves to make a peace deal with Israel, they will suffer from poverty, violence, and chaos. Furthermore, from the right-wing Israeli point of view, so long as the Palestinians prefer "steadfastness," the futures of Bethlehem, Hebron, Jericho, etc remain in play.

Let's say that "A" kills "B" under the following circumstances: 1- "B" was about to kill "A"'s daughter with an axe. "A" shot "B" to prevent his daughter from getting killed. "A" is a hero who has no reason to be ashamed of his act. 2- "A" did not like that "B" had blue eyes so he followed him until they were alone and shot him. "A" is a murderer. "A" shot "B" is not a sufficient explantion of the above situations although it accurately describes the action of "A" and the death of "B" in both. Actions need to be looked at in the context. Is Israel acting to prevent murders?

Arabs are always screaming about Justice, Justice, Justice. I've come to the sad conclusion that to them justice means, " I get what I want". If I don't get what I want then then there is no justice. I dont' think there is even the most basic understanding of justice in the Arab World. Look what is happening in Libya. That's Arab justice.

All security measures must be taken, to ensure that the rascist Arabs, cannot impose there Final Solution on the Jewish State. If the Arabs do not like to live in the Land of Israel, they have that right to leave. Over 350,000 Arabs have left in the past 5 years. Only when Jews start to take care of themselves will our enemies understand.

My hero has done it again! Gideon levy has always been in the forfronts of human rights, terrorists have rights also! they should be allowed to go arround israel with thier suicide belts blowing people into peices if they feel like it, they have rights too! like his article on sat about the Carpenters wife, a terrorist who Levy paints as a saint. hey Levy! how can you justify somebody stabbing an 18 year old girl doing her forced duty for this country!? you say she just wanted to die! so why did she have to go and stab a soldier? he makes a bold connection between suicide bombers and Eden Natan-Zada a boy who simply got on the wrong bus, somebody who was lynched on televison and not 1 arrest was made! while a boy who threw a stone at an arab, slightly wounding him was aressted for an attemted lynch and is still in prison today! truley an amazing man! keep up the good work! keep it coming levy, keep it coming

It is a sign of mental illness to demand and defend civil and human rights in Australia or America..while strongly advocating racism and apartheid in the West Bank and Israel. This is unfortunately a very conspicuou mental feature among many many Jews. They support equality before the law in their native countries...but support apartheid in Israel.

Kameel - my grandparents and their forebears once lived in Hebron until when, in 1929, the local Arabs decided to ethnically cleanse it of a Jewish population. They were Palestinian Jews when their neighbours called themselves "Arabs". I feel quite entitled to say that "we should change the system" to one that isolates murderers and assassins and those who aid, abet and support them. I can see that you obviously don't and it's that mindset that has enabled this century old conflict to continue to this very day.

If it takes a security barrier (THE WALL) and security checkpoints to keep Israelis safe from Palestinian terrorists who want to murder us, and if this makes life miserable for the Palestinians, then they have nobody to blame for themselves and their leaders. Whenever the Palestinians come to their senses and give Abu Mazen sufficient support to put down the terrorist organizations, they will discover that Israel will be unable to prevent the formation of a Palestinian state in 95%, more or less, of the territories. Until they do so, then long live apartheid! I prefer apartheid safety to the terrorist plan of Endlosung der Judenfrage (if you wish to use terms borrowed from another context)

So the ministry of Defense thinks that by closing roads to Palestinian traffic is preventing terrorism. I just read an article in today's Independant that yet again in Salem, a Palestinian village east of Nablus a bunch of colonialist thugs have been destroying olive trees in 70 Palestinian farms. One farmer woke up to see 30 of his olive trees, that he had nurtured for 10 years and were just beginning to bear fruit, had been cut down with chainsaws by kippa wearing criminals. I grow trees myself on my land and can imagine the anguish of the Palestinian olive tree farmers. Israeli's wonder why Palestinians commit terrorist acts. If the army would spend more time to hunt down these criminal thugs it would do much more to prevent acts of terror. So much for the zionist myth of making the land bloom. What the Palestinians see day to day is how their occupied land is laid to waste by representative of the State of Israel. It makes me sick.

azzam you can do better then that.what do you mean.do tell.

To the Prince from Melbourne...I guess then you've never been to South Africa either, but can safely say that you know everything about apartheid...or colonialism for that matter. I have no problem with the likes of Gideon speaking his mind...I do though feel terribly sad for people like you who rely on world media for their views. As Danite has said, of course, no one in their right minds would want to continue this situation...but obviously it's not that simple... And I'd LOVE to see what the Victorian or Australian government would come up with, faced with the security threats that Israelis deal with day to day...perhaps something along the lines of the Detention centres already in existence? Apartheid what? Xenophobic what?... J

i can see that you misunderstand gideon haas.he is on your side and will do whatever you want no questions asked.

It takes not only honest,but brave people to voice such an opinion like this Honest Israeli's. In contrast, I think Andrew from Australia....should feel ashamed, first by talking in the term of : "we..must change the system." and... "there should be a road for the rest of us.", all this talk from as far as Australia. So why are you not moving here. Second, it is so mean to be that inhumane and indiscriminate. And let me ask yu,how would you react if, even as a visitor( not a local living for some 1300 years ) in Australia, you would be discriminated against in all matters of life. To be honest, at times, I enjoy watching " YOU " ( who need special roads ) becoming so immoral and so indiferent to the values that you must have falsefully claimed. Truth always surface vivid and clear.

"what`s wrong in a democracy that practices apartheid??" Nothing wrong. That's what pisses white South Africans off. The double standards. While Israekl can get away with a fundemnatalist form of aparthied, the world destroyed a great country in SOuth Africa because we wanted to protect a white minority that was given dominion by God over the others in that piece of land. We turned it into paradaise of prosperity and industry. We even survived the attacks of surrounding enemy states who far outnumber us. The same story as Israel. And look how the world rewarded us for our good deeds.. LEARN FROM US ISRAELIS. DON'T REPEAT OUR MISTAKE AND DON'T GIVE UP.

no cars?! could u think of any other way to make palestinian lives more miserable?this article has ignorance written all over it

He who is without shame shall do whatever pleases him and him alone.

Israelhas divided the West Bank so much that there many Palestinians can barely trave to near by villages. The aprtheid wall, checkpoints miltyary zones and so on make it completely impossible for the Palestinians tol ead a normal life so what more does Gidioen want. The occpied areas are already a prison. Gideons ignorent idea will not affect the situation and will merely create more anger.

Obviously, you know absolutely nothing about Israel. Israeli citizens, whether Muslim, Christian or Jewish are treated equally under the law. Arabs here are judges, doctors, policemen, soldiers and government officials. Can the same be said of any Jew living in Arab lands? Oh wait, Jews were expelled from Arab lands years ago with all of their land and belongings confiscated by their Arab hosts. As for separating them from us, there really isnt much of a choice. I live in Haifa one block away from the Maxim restaurant bombing here 2 years ago in which 21 were massacred by an murdering lowlife. I couldnt care less about inconveniencing the Arabs if it keeps me alive. Let's se what you would say if a society of Arabs living in your neck of the woods tried to blow you up an a daily basis. You'd probably be the first to write your congressman. Good Lord! You really don't know anything about Israel except what your little mind reads in the papers. Not your fault I guess.

How easy it is for others to sit on their armchairs and preach...all the way from Texas. So I suppose it's ok for George Bush to justify his every move on that 'tiring old thing called security'...for God's sake. We have enough informed people with opinions, we don't need more rubbish to block the way towards some sort of resolution. Thanks for your offer though- look in your own backyard. J

Let's hope that israel's apartheid regime attracts the same level of opposition as did South Africa's; and with the same result.

Thanks for writers like Gideon. Every now and then an israeli supporter asks me: "Have you ever been to israel?" as though I would have an epiphany, see the error of my ways and never criticise israel again. No, I have never been to israel or the occupied territories. Thanks to the likes of Gideon (and Haaretz) I don't need to go there to know the truth. The zionist colonial effort is 200 to 400 years too late. Most of the world knows the truth of it.

Who the hell would want this occupation to carry on one more day that absolutly needed , needs their heads examined.What kind of bizarre and distorted reality is being created here?Is this something worth fighting for ? Killing and being killed for? What kind of mental process is not at work here? I swear it is totaly beyond what anybody sees in upkeeping this kind of bizarre twilight zone bad trip going on for one more minute than needed.It seems like alot of people have lost any semblance of a concept of life that makes sense and is tenable and viable over the long term. Leave it alone already.Get the hell out of their to the earliest rational possible convenience and do everything possible to make that day come as soon as possible, what kind of life is this?One most be an empty shell indeed if they think keeping this kind of nonsense up for as long as possible has any possible value or meaning or desirabilty.What are they lacking in life that they need to fill themselves with a few more dunams of semi parched earth at the expense of everything else under the sun? WOW!Unreal! Danite

and judge not lest you be judged. texas vigilantes have taken pick up trucks filled with good ol boys.and who are they after? not terrorists as in israel but mexican poor seeking work in the united states. i would not want to be a mexican on the receiving end of the wrath of these good ol boys.

two alien and hostile populations cannot share a state.your partner for one state is jordan. i am for israel giving back 90% of the west bank.the balance 10% should be exchanged with arab villages within israel. in short there is a palestinian state and the west bank should join it.

Gideon Levi and Amira Hass each have an axe to grind - the same axe. But Israel Harel and Moshe Arens also have an axe to grind - again the same axe. Each pair represents the extreme ends of the Israeli political spectrum. Let Ha'aretz continue to publish the extremist pronouncements of each pair! Israelis have to understand why extremist positions of any kind are both dangerous and ridiculous. Remember, these unbalanced articles are countered by the more sane and centrist Ha'aretz columnists, such as Zvi Schiff, Yoel Marcus, Ari Shavit, Amir Oren and Aluf Benn.

The State Dept. and American Jewry at large must come to terms with the fact that as of now, the majority of the world's Jews no longer live in the USA and that this downward demographic trend is fast increasing -by 2015, the majority of the world's Jews will live in Israel. The more the State Dept. and President Bush act inimically to the best interests of Israel, the more Israel must stand her ground and demonstrate that she is not a US protectorate, overseas dependency or even a state in the Union but a sovereign state in her own right. That she is perceived to be the tail that wags the American dog is contributory to a large part of her problem at the bar of world opinion. If this exploits an innate and undeserved anti-Americanism inherent in Western societies and others, so be it. The reaction of America to terrorist attacks on her soil resulted in the invasion of two countries. I wonder what the reaction would have been had Israel done likewise as a result of five years of terrorist war - not to mention the screeming eminating from American Reform rabbis. Enough. When America judges, too great a weight is attached to this arbitrariness, given that American aid to Israel's enemies vastly outstrips that given to Israel herself and the US has recently and unreasonably unilaterally terminated defence agreements between the two states. Let Homeland Security stop racial profiling at her ports of entry. Then she can claim to be apartheid free. What utter hypocricy.

where is there a different judicial sytem for the palestinians? there is a wall which seperates 2 peoples, which has been increasingly necessary due to 5 years of terrorism there are 21 refugee camps under the control of abbas - do you know why,nobody else does? israel has full equal rights for all its citizens and all the citizens are entitled to the protection of the law and all the social ammenities the state has to offer palestinians are palestinians and not israelis, the same as africans are not russians or chinese are not from finland so the laws are there to ensure the citizens of the state are secure there are 5.7 million jews in israel and about 1.3 million non jews (muslims christians etc)each has equal rights do you know what you are talking about?

gideon haas is bereft of ideas.he has nothing to contribute.put him to grass.

Dear jewish readers, i dont like violent solutions and please dont say that im a fundamentalist, antisemitic or pro Hamas, because im not from that choices. But you should understand thateven if you think that the security is the main problem for Israel, then dont be inside our territories. But if you want to keep the settlements and make a situation de facto of giving more rights to people for be jews than the palestinians in the same territory, then it is Apartheid. If you dont like the word, please study what happened in South Africa, and what you can do if you dont like to go out of the occupied territories is to give us right to vote in the Knesset and then we'll have right to know about the law that you like to put in our cities, towns and villages. If we live under a law that Israel did without ask us, then it is Apartheid, and it is what is happening in Palestine.

"And some of these pilgrims are plodding through the hills to make this pilgrimage, as the Hebrew word for pilgrim (oleh regel) literally suggests"" Without reference to the content of the article itself, I would like to coment on the ignorance of and estrangement from Jewish tradition that it displays. "oleh regel" does not "literally" mean a person who makes a pilgrimage by foot. It means "festival pilgram". The word "regel" refers to the "shalosh regalim" - the Three Festivals - Passover, Shavuot and Sukkot. I hope Mr. Levi does not think that kissing a mezuzah brings good luck.

Gideon Levy is wrong in suggesting that stopping all the Palestinians to travel by cars on all Israel, WB and Gaza roads will stop terror attacks. One can only look at the Vietnam situation were determined Vietcong moved around South Vietnam to attack americans during the Vietnam wars. They did the same against the French and won. You can stop Palestinians from traveling on Israeli roads. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, AlAqsa brigades, Palestinian Resistance Committee within short months of such travel ban will establish cell among the 1 million Isareli Palestinians and you have a bigger problem on your hand. The word aparthaid, will be used by our enemies regardles what you do. If you stop the car traffic for Palestinians and you set up small hospitals 10 km apart accross WB to provide delivery rooms, dialysis machines etc the anti semitic world will still cal Jews racists and Nasiz and 'worst the Nasiz and worst then aparthaid. Yossi beilin wrote in New York Times last week that we and the Quartete should call " a spade a spade" There is no chance for the Road Map to succe at the deadline of 2006, an election year for Israel and PA.Road Map is Dead. Abbas will continue dragging his feet to disarm the terror groups and destroy its infrustructue. Beilin is correct. Isarel must complete the security fence before its own elections. And than announce a plan for peace. 1) the fence route will be altered at the final agreement. Plaestinian Villages in parts of Israel will be transfered to " Palestine" in exchange for the settlement blocks of Israelis. Negotiate a total exchange of Palestinians from Israel to "Palestine" Palestinians must renounce in writing the "Sacred right to return" period. International community will have to compensate and ressttle the Palestinian Refugies. Palestinina mus t recognize Israel within the adjusted borders. Palestinian may choose to stay as a smaller Ste on WB or join Jordan in a federated Stae where Palestinians a re a majority. If the Palestinians refuse this solution then the Security fence will stay as completed by Israel. This will be the border and than you ban WB Palestinian cars from Israel passed the fence borders. If Israeli Palestinians start terror on their brothers behalf, expel them as enemies of state. Stop dithering around and be afraid of slurrs like " Israeli Aparthaid" Israel worst than Nazis" etc. Our enemies will keep on smearing Israel regardless what we do. The word " Aparthaid " lost its tru meaning. It is trvilized by now. By this definition the Brits practise aparthaid in Norther Ireland, isn't it Ireland anyway. So why do they have a fence around it. One can also define N. Ireland as a big jail, not unlike what Arabs call Gaza. In USA and Canada the Native Indians live on reserves. In Canad we call it the "First nation". I as a white non Indian have no right to move in and build a house. Indians do not pay Federal or Provincial taxes.They do not get unemployment pay. They have their local councils. So one can call the councils " Judenrats. If anyone wants to smear jews as Aparthaid practitioners they will do it as long as Israelis on mass do not start praying to Allah and running around like the Hamasniks , with covered faces shooting in the air during their parades. The window of opportunity is now for Israel to propse a bold population exchange, setting the final border and closing the chapter of hostilities with Palestinians. And if the Palestinians refuse to finalize such and agreement then they will live behind the Security fence as Israel decides. Eventualy they will then fade into the bin dust of history and will be absorbed by Jordan by default.

Let's see...there are different roads for palestinians. There is a different judicial system for palestinians. There are a few bantustans for palestinians. There is a wall that leaves the pals on the one side and most of their land on the israeli side Anyone care to explain how that is not apartheid? And don't give me the tiring security argument. Israel wants the pals out and is doing everything that it can do ( without the international community lifting a finger) to enable a smooth transfer.

there is no doubt that that the vast majority of palestinians are innocent of taking part in attacks on israel there is nevertheless a need,no matter how unsavoury to defend in any manner the state of israel and its citizens so long as abbas is not willing to use the force of arms he has at his fingertips then israel will have no option but to enforce no matter how unpalitable to some the best methods of defence and this is stopping the terrorists from being able to transport both arms and people from point a to point b interestingly in this article written with so much angst by mr.levy is an apparent ommission that all that is being done is being done so that he and his kids and family are safe openning the roads at this time will not bring us peace - it will bring more israeli deaths. the price the palestinians have to bear for terrorism is high and this is merely part of it bm

What Israel is inflicting upon the largely innocent civilian Palestinian population is more than just apartheid; it systematic brutal persecution that is aimed first and foremost at dehumanizing these people and making them suffer at all levels. Security, though a legitimate concern, is often a false rubric, as totally innocent Palestinians are made to suffer in ways indescribable, something that Israelis, especially soldiers and settlers, enjoy a lot. It is really very difficult to find a single Palestinian in the occupied territory who doesn't have a certain mental or psychological illness as a result of Israeli behavior, which transcends reality.

truly truly gideon haas has become unreadable.why does not haaretz put him out of his misery? call him into the editor's office and tell him straight that his hideous prose (highfalutin! ugh!)and even worse ideas must come to a stop. send him home never to return.

Doesn't Gideon Levy ever get tired of being so self-righteous?

In Gideon's World, terrorism is just an understandable and sympathetic form of road rage. As my girlfriend would say, "I have no words". This is just one more mindless editorial which CONTINUES TO convince THE terrorists that they will prevail and finish off "The Zionist Entity", IF ONLY eventually. It is beyond unpatriotic. As to the hassle of road blocks on those who applaud the cold blooded murder of children, I say, GOOD, MAY YOU POOP IN YOUR PANTS WHILE WAITING.

Israel is the only democracy in the middle east. oops, forgot I-raq. what's wrong in a democracy that practices apartheid??

Correct Mr. Levy. We must change the system. There should be one road for murderers and assasins and those who aid, abet and support them and another one for the rest of us. And I nominate you to spend a few weeks hitchhiking around the West Bank to determine who's who.