End the Arab occupation of Israel

Of all these people arguing here for a Palestinian West Bank, no one is responding to the essential fact stated. There is a country out there where the majority of the population is Palestinian. That is Jordan, it is ruled by a King (not a democracy) whose family hails from Saudi Arabia Those facts are irrefutable and no one in this conversation has negated them. Now one may claim that there should be two or three Palestinian country but then why is every one so hesitant to say so?

"First time in my life I do agree with HAARETZ !" -- you said. You do not agree with Haaretz, you agree with Ron Breiman. And with what are you agreeing? With this: We cannot bear anymore the ongoing "Arab occupation" of the Land of Israel. Let us get rid of it. How? By having instead Jordanian citizens occupying us. This the luminous idea of Breiman-the-bright-man you are agreeing with. Then, let me tell you something: There was once a Trumpeldor who had lost his left arm. You sound as one who lost his left brain.

Blaming Khartoum for our leaders' foolishness is the easy way out. "The 3 no's of Khartoum is what defeated the Israeli peace camp", you said. That makes no sense at all. First, because Khartoum nor any peace camp are responsible for our leaders' failures. Second, because in September 1967, there was no Israeli peace camp to speak of. Had there been one, its 'defeat' would have been no excuse for misguided Israeli governements. Levy Eshkol was no peacenik, nor was Moshe Dayan nor Golda Meir, who all used to say, "We never had it so good", and "There is no Palestinian people." Khartoum had no part in it. "Just as no one will exile me from kibbutz Ginossar, no one will exile Jews from Hebron," said in August 1968 then-Minister of Labor in Levy Eshkol's cabinet, Ygal Allon. The fool. Ginossar is in Israel. Hebron is in occupied territory. Later, in gratitude for such 'clear-mindedness', his kibbutz erected to him a (terribly ugly) monument. (All black, bunker-like, right on the shore of the Kinneret) Recommended reading: "So misled by the leaders", by Amos Elon, Haaretz, Jul 22, 2005 - his review of Tom Segev's "1967 : And the Country Changed its Face". www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=603316# He who has not read "1967" will never fully understand what is going on here. The same goes for "The Accidental Empire", by Gershom Gorenberg. A superb book on the birth of the settlements.

"Who said that my right to live in Israel is dependent upon International Law?" (Yonatan) In Israel? I really don't know. Why are you asking me? My own right to live in Israel is dependent upon the Israeli government only. "it is not alright for Jews to return to their ancient homeland ... ?" (Yonatan) Who said it is not? We Jews have been doing it for centuries. Way before 1948. I presume you are, like so many of your kind, mistaking Israel for Eretz-Israel. These are, mind you, two different notions. One is UN state member, the other is not. How come nobody ever told you that yet? " ... and have sovereignty here?" (Yonatan) No, it is not. Unless, of course, someone can come up with a practical way to make all the muslim population of Eretz-Israel's leave, or, somehow, disappear. I mean - without using the same methods that brought Slovodan Milosevitz to The Hague.

"Until the Palestinians accept [...] nothing will change." Big mistake. Time doesn't stands still, not even for the Jewish state. One never steps twice in the same river. This was said as early as the late 6th century BCE, and there are people who have not grasped yet the idea. "Time is against us. Demographically, it works for the Palestinians, and politically, in favor of Hamas and the settlers." Ami Ayalon, former head of the Shin Bet, December 22, 2001. www.middleeast.org/comments/1/3652.shtml In 2001, very few Israelis took Ayalon's warning seriously. Today, Hamas, whose name, up to the first Intifada, no one had heard, is in full control of the Palestinian parliament and of the Gaza Strip - now an islamist enclave Israel cannot live with nor defeat. "We must end the occupation. If we don't, it would end us." Haim Ramon, former Israeli Justice Minister. www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3071814,00.html

EVERYTHING is written in this seminal article Arabs came AFTER Jewish alyot which rehabilitated barren soil It does not mean we must throw them out but it put things into order For doubters,read the book "From time immemorial" !

As for B. Tuchman and her 'hindsight', has nobody told you yet that an historian can only teach us lessons from the past, not from the future? Contrary to the historian's job, it is the task of elected leaders to deal properly not only with the present, but also with the future, including the traps that political developments so often open before their feet. This what they are elected for. Khartoum was such a trap, into which they most recklessly hasten to fall, believing that there never will be peace. Clear-minded leaders do not ignore that time flows, and that what sounds true today may very well be proven false tomorrow. This is what they foolishly ignored, when they failed to kick the insane religious guru Moshe Levinger out of the West Bank, after his Seder in Hebron, March 1968, when he and his followers brazenly refused to abide by the order of the city's military governor to leave. Two weeks later Levinger had already opened a kindergarten, a first-grade class and a yeshiva in Park hotel, Hebron, where 15 Israeli families were living. With the consent of the government. Our leaders failed us, and we are still paying the price, and will, I am afraid, keep paying it for years to come. (part 3/3 to follow)

Who is man to divide up the land of God's chosen or even the the city of the great king Jerusalem. The world just don't get it nor does the leaders of this world.The Bible says that indeed a false peace will come over a course of a seven year tribulation,brokered by the anti christ.During that seven year period he will brake that peace 3 and a half years into it. This is the time of Jacobs troubles but the Bible also says that Damascus will be a ruined heap as spoken of clearly in the book of Isaiah The Land of Israel has specifically been chosen By God Himself especially the city of Jerusalem.Who are these Palestinians that they may think themselves to be above the Living God and creator of all things. They are simply Arabs trying to lay hold on the greatest city in the World.Even the very temple they have built will come down.There is coming a day when the Lord himself Jesus Christ will Step on the Mount of Olives and enter through the Eastern gate of Jerusalem.

"Binational state exists now. There are Arabs living in Israel with full citizenship now." (Yonatan) In a sense, you are right, Israel IS kind of binational state, with 20% of its population non-Jews, mostly muslims. But you are overlooking the most essential aspect of it: In this 'binational state' so to speak - we Jews are the majority. In a future not so distant anymore, when the settlers have won, and the West Bank is so full of Israeli settlements that a separation from the Palestinians has been rendered impracticable, we will be talking, given the demographics, about a completely different kind of 'binational state', extending from the sea to the river, where a Jewish minority has been faced with an impossible choice: Either to forcibly impose its rule over an Arab majority, OR, to accept resignedly - those of us who are still here - to live in a "one-man-one-vote" state for two peoples, ruled by a Palestinian prime minister. When that day comes, it would mark the dismal failure of the whole Zionist enterprise. I am quite sure that then, a blockhead of a Jew will still go lamenting that it is all because "British and American interests have cynically prevented peace here."

Mr. Gil, you are terribly wrong. Christians believe of course that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are the forefathers of the Jews. They do believe in what they call the 'Old Testament'. They even believe that Jesus is from the Seed of David. In their own holy book, he is himself often heard quoting from our Prophets. Yes BUT, and this is where you are so mistaken, all that does not cause them to believe that Gaza and the West Bank are part of the state of Israel, nor that our holy book is, in any way, a legitimate basis for Israel to start claiming sovereignty over all of Eretz-Israel. And they do not believe that our June '67 victory was the realization of the Promise made to Abraham. You are just inventing things up. As for what you said about the Muslims' view of the Holy Land, I prefer to think you were only joking.

As for B. Tuchman and her 'hindsight', has nobody told you yet that an historian can only teach us lessons from the past, not from the future? Contrary to the historian's job, it is the task of elected leaders to deal properly not only with the present, but also with the future, including the traps that political developments so often open before their feet. This what they are elected for. Khartoum was such a trap, into which they most recklessly hasten to fall, believing that there never will be peace. Clear-minded leaders do not ignore that time flows, and that what sounds true today may very well be proven false tomorrow. This is what they foolishly ignored, when they failed to kick the insane religious guru Moshe Levinger out of the West Bank, after his Seder in Hebron, March 1968, when he and his followers brazenly refused to abide by the order of the city's military governor to leave. Two weeks later Levinger had already opened a kindergarten, a first-grade class and a yeshiva in Park hotel, Hebron, where 15 Israeli families were living. With the consent of the government. Our leaders failed us, and we are still paying the price, and will, I am afraid, keep paying it for years to come. (part 3/3 to follow)

"Until the Palestinians accept [...] nothing will change." Big mistake. Time doesn't stands still, not even for the Jewish state. One never steps twice in the same river. This was said as early as the late 6th century BCE, and there are people who have not grasped yet the idea. "Time is against us. Demographically, it works for the Palestinians, and politically, in favor of Hamas and the settlers." Ami Ayalon, former head of the Shin Bet, December 22, 2001. www.middleeast.org/comments/1/3652.shtml In 2001, very few Israelis took Ayalon's warning seriously. Today, Hamas, whose name, up to the first Intifada, no one had heard, is in full control of the Palestinian parliament and of the Gaza Strip - now an islamist enclave Israel cannot live with nor defeat. "We must end the occupation. If we don't, it would end us." Haim Ramon, former Israeli Justice Minister. www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3071814,00.html

Michael is only partially correct in his understanding. Whilst I would agree that the Arab nations who invaded on 16 May 1948 were more the agressors than the Israelis (despite agressive acts from both sides in the preceding civil war), they generally ended up occupying territories assigned to them in the UN partition plan of Nov 1947. Of course they all had their own agenda, and would no doubt have loved to have expelled the Jews completely. The partition plan assigned the West Bank (slightly larger area than the final armistice lines) and Gaza (including a strop on Isreal's southern border) to the Palestinians. These ended up more or less in Jordanian and Egyptian hands - slightly less than agreed by the UN. So there isn't really an "illegal occupation" of land promised to the Jews (by the UN, not G-d!). Israel in fact exceeded the UN partition - any addition to this is by definition illegal occupation. I don't beleive the Arabs ended up with any land not assigned to them.

Apart from the idea of population transfer (a euphemism for expulsion or ethnic cleansing) being politically impossible and morally reprehensible, there is the question of where the Palestinian population would go. Both Egypt and Jordan seem to show little sign of wanting the Palestinians despite ruling Gaza and the West Bank pre-1967. Egypt refused to open their borders to Gazans during Operation Cast Lead when there was a real humanitarian reason for doing so. Jordan is now revoking the passports of Palestinians who have lived there since 1967. I don't think any Arab nation is particularly keen to adopt the 4.5 million Palestinians who live west of the Jordan. The time for transfer for 1948 when the British mandate ended - or even after 1922 when Jordan was created as an Arab only nation. I truly feel sorry for the Palestinians - there were almost hoping for a better deal, but their hand just gets worse with time. Maybe offering $500,000 a head to neighbouring Arab countries works?

The author of this article seems not to grasp the realities of the current situation. There is no on earth that the international community, especially the Arab nations would accept any perceived "ethnic cleansing" of Palestine. The only way this could ever happen would be through a large scale Israeli-Arab conflict in which Israel carried out wholesale expulsion of Israeli Arabs and Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. I doubt most Israelis have the stomach for the loss of Israeli life this would no doubt entail, and the international condemnation such expulsions would attract. Unless the USA stepped in, there's no guarantee that Isreal would even survive such a conflagration. However, the idea of population transfer is not a new one. It may surprise readers to learn that in 1947/48 even some Arab leaders supported transfer of Arab populations to neighbouring countries. The Yishuv was contemplating generous compensation to re-located Arabs, preferring voluntary transfer.

Eric We call them Arab because they are Arab, It is all here in the Palestinian National Charter of 1964 ``We, the Palestinian ARAB PEOPLE, who waged fierce and continuous battles to safeguard its homeland, to defend its dignity and honor, and who offered all through the years continuous caravans of immortal martyrs, and who wrote the noblest pages of sacrifice, offering and giving.`` ``We, the Palestinian ARAB PEOPLE, who faced the forces of evil, injustice and aggression, against whom the forces of international Zionism and colonialism conspire and worked to displace it, dispossess it from its homeland and property, abused what is holy in it and who in spite of all this refused to weaken or submit.`` ``We, the Palestinian ARAB PEOPLE, who believe in its ARABISM and in its right to regain its homeland, to realize its freedom and dignity, and who determined to amass its forces and mobilize its, efforts and capabilities in order to continue its struggle and move forward on path of HOLY WAR (al-jihad) until complete and final victory has been attained`` ``We, the Palestinian ARAB PEOPLE`` bla bla bla We, the ARAB PEOPLE Did you get the ARAB PEOPLE part Eric? And who is saying so, the ARAB Palestinians themselves, in their Palestinian National Charter of 1964!

It seems than the writer is more rightist or YEMANI than Kahane.There are so much claims that needs reaction but I only bring two of them. Where does he take the "fact" that "most palestinians immigrated to Palestine AFTER the waves of Jewish immigration?" The truth is that the Palestinian or at least significant part thereof are the Jews that did not leave ERETZ ISRAEL after the roman deportation and during centries of Arab control over the area converted to Islam (with some convertions to Christianity after the crusadors (ZALBANIM) occupied part of Palestine. Also who occupies whom is not determined by the dogmas of the rightists in Israel but rather by the Internatonal community who recognizes Israel only within the borders ofthe green line, thereby making Judea and Samaria occupied lands by definition.

As for B. Tuchman and her 'hindsight', has nobody told you yey that an important part of an historian's job is to draw conclusion about the past, not the future? Contrary to the historian's job, it is the task of elected leaders to deal not only with the present, but also with the future, including the traps that political developments open before their feet. This what they are elected for. Khartoum was such a trap, and they most recklessly, even gleefully, fell into it. Clear-minded leaders do not ignore that time flows, and that what sounds true today may very well be proven false tomorrow. This is what they foolishly ignored, when they failed to kick the insane religious guru Moshe Levinger out of the West Bank, after his Seder in Hebron, March 1968, when he and his followers brazenly refused to abide by the order of the city's military governor to leave. Two weeks later Levinger had already opened a kindergarten, a first-grade class and a yeshiva in the hotel, where 15 Israeli families were living. With the consent of the government. Our leaders failed us, and we are still paying the price, and will, I am afraid, keep paying it for years to come. (part 3/3 to follow)

Mr. Gil, you are terribly wrong. Christians believe of course that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are the forefathers of the Jews. They do believe in what they call the 'Old Testament', and that Jesus is from the Seed of David. In their own holy book, he is himself often heard quoting from our Prophets. BUT, and this is where you are so mistaken, all that does not cause them to believe that Gaza and the West Bank are part of the state of Israel, nor that our holy book is, in any way, a legitimate basis for Israel to start claiming sovereignty over all of Eretz-Israel. And they do not believe that our June '67 victory was the realization of the Promise made to Abraham. You are just inventing things up. As for what you said about the Muslims' view of the Holy Land, I prefer to think you were only joking.

so, your `miss-goody-two-shoes`, attitude, can be directed..`to-where-the-sun-don`t-shine`.. no Arab/Moslem, can live peaceably, in a Democracy.. there is no Democratic country, on this planet where Rug-Rats do not cause horrible, destructive upheavals.." You are such a gentleman to address a female like that. As for the rest of your racist rant.... a load of deluded nonsense.

Enjoyed your posts. Gil, the history of Tzippori was fascinating. Yonatan, how do have the patience to answer all those posts.

"As for B. Tuchman, everybody's got 20/20 hindsight." (Shai) Everybody? That's a big mistake. I wish you were right, Israel would be much better of these days. What other nations, much more powerful than we can ever be, learned a long time ago, our leadership has not grasped yet. And that is that time is long past when an Army clashing, not with another Army but with a foreign and stateless people, could bring a definitive military solution. (see part 2/3)

You got your Zionist movement wanting to liberate all Palestine from Palestinians, and you got your PLO, wanting to liberate all Palestine from Israelis. The PLO can't bring itself to smell the coffee and officially recognize Israel's right to exist on any territory within the green line until some time in the late 80's. Israel can't bring itself to smell the coffee and officially recognize the right of Palestinians to full sovereignity over any territory beyond the greenline until some time in the mid 90's. At least everyone is on the same page.

# 152 axel, And was Mengele a DOKTOR ? If so. Are a great proportion of German DOKTORS clild murderers,& born Criminals ?

``Because, in order to believe "that the land of Israel today is the ancestral home of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob the forefathers of the jews" - one has to be a Jew.`` (Written by Zeev) Mr. Zeev Christians believe in the New and Old Testament, in their embracement of the Old Testament where it is written, that the land of Israel today is the ancestral home of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob the forefathers of the Jews they believe in it as well Moslems believe the biblical caricatures as Moses, and Abraham. By reviving their name after thousands of years as a fact, for their religion and belief in monotheism, they too are believers, that the Promised Land, the Holy Land, Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people. That doesn`t say we as Jews have no obligation to take care of all people living in it, just as we are commended by the Old Jewish Book!

excuse me for challenging you on this, but it's always been a peeve of mine for two reasons: the first is that they are NOT arab, even if some perceive themselves to be. they are genetically distant from the arabs; no less so than the israelis. although some intermixing during the span of arab occupations, the palestinians remain genetically distinct from arabs. their affinity is based on shared religion, language, and culture; all of which can be attributed to centuries of arab occupation...but the affinity ends there. the second reason is more subtle and damaging. please note that in general, the palestinian people are invariably refered to as "arabs" by ALL zionist and pro-israel entities...and even those supportive of the palestinian cause, in the u.n., here, there, and just about everywhere. why does it matter? because by calling them "arab" you help propagate, and lend credence to, the distorted views of history that zionists propagandists and the israeli government have painted in the minds of so many over the last 60 years. you call 'em "arab", you lend credence to the fallacy this man paints as fact. you call 'em "arab", and you help strip them of their identity, you help deny them 2000 years of history, you help bury their lost villages deeper, you acquiesce to the zionist lie that the palestinian people attacked israel in 1948...you call 'em "ARAB", and you reinforce the extremely misleading stereotype invoked by zionist zealots to promote their goals of ethnic cleansing. it's most unfortunate that virtually no one thinks twice about refering to the palestinians as "arabs", and i personally believe it's something that's been nurtured and fostered over the years(by guess who), until it's now done almost universally without a second thought its implications. sorry for the ramble, but after reading what this guy wrote, i couldn't hold my thoughts back any longer... i hope it makes sense to all the pro-pals who read it and that you'll maybe pass the word within your circles... and from the rest of you...lol...i know what to expect...

Good discussion. What's in a name, Der Zweifler?

the definition of Islam, is 'submission'..therefore no Moslem, is a true citizen within a country, that requires, a pledge of allegiance.. because..i),, all Moslems are allowed to lie, to gain an advantage, over non-moslems..ii)the call to Islam, takes precedence, over all...iii)disobediance to all man-made laws..even murder, is encouraged, with no penalty..eg honour killing.. the list goes on for 7 more items ... but no space.. that is why, ALL, repeat, ALL.. Moslems/Arabs Must be resettled, into a society where they'll, be at home with their, brother Rug-Rats... so, your 'miss-goody-two-shoes', attitude, can be directed..'to-where-the-sun-don't-shine'.. Pof..RB, is 100% correct.... no Arab/Moslem, can live peaceably, in a Democracy.. there is no Democratic country, on this planet where Rug-Rats do not cause horrible, destructive upheavals.. so, Kudos to Prof RB, for this timely essay..

of the Yiddish language. Yiddish was the communication tool in the eastern sphere of Europe. The Habsburg Monarchy understood under Emperor Joseph II the great value of the cultural "colonisation". At least the jews were the only dedicated austrians (the other were croatian, germans etc.) Even today in the austrian dialect many yiddish words are used and the youngsters of today dont know the origin. Reibach, meschugge, tacheles are still alive .

A deal on boundaries can be wrapped up almost immediately. That does a lot more to prevent what you would term "confiscation" of lands than having a pissy fit. The 3 no's of Khartoum were the context that defeated the Israeli peace camp and permitted the right wing political forces to rally political support around settling lands, since there was no hope of peace after Khartoum. So, it's actually quite relevant. As far as Tuchman, everybody's got 20/20 hindsight. I don't think the PA and its supporters see the future any more clearly than anyone else. Everyone's interest is served by sitting down and settling an agreement immediately without preconditions, INCLUDING those pertaining to settlement.

Michael No you have it wrong We are not talking about Jewish presence from 700 to 1850AD in the Holy Land We are talking about 3450 years of Jewish presence in the Holly Land Yes Michael 3450 years of Jewish Presence in the Holey Land! Minority Majority has noting to do with it, When the Arabs, the Moslems, the Christians came here in their crusades which makes them alien to this historic land Minority Majority has noting to do with it, When in every conquest the invading conquerors who have settled this land mass murdered the Jewish community living in their historical land Minority Majority has noting to do with it, When our forefathers bought this land, and insisted on doing so even though they could get it for free! Abraham for example may have come from a distant land but at least he bought what he owned, if you don`t know then one thing we know he BOUGHT was land in Hebron including the Cave of the Patriarchs (Me'arat HaMachpela) for 400 Shekels. Abraham grandson Jacob BOUGHT a piece of land in Nebulous (SeHem) there he also built an Altar. Although Jews were a Minority in their own land, we have learned from our grate, grate grandfather Abraham that in order to own land and claim it yours, you have to buy it. The Majority of Arabs, who call themselves Palestinians, were not owners of land some worked for Effendis who paid there taxes, and gave them shelter, others lived on government land, avoiding the pay of taxes as they do till this very day! By the way Michael did you know that, The town of Haifa (English) Hayfa (Arabic) Heifa (Hebrew) The city of Haifa 900 years back, Haifa Fortress, or as it was recorded in the Cairo Geniza (מצודת חיפה) METZODAT HEIFA, was entirely inhabited by Jewish residents. The Christian Crusaders determined to take Haifa Fortress after a month of battles the Christians capture the Fortress and the Jewish town of Haifa, the Crusaders settled the town with Moslems and Christians, and call the Fortress Castellum Cayphas! The Arabs latter on called the town Hayfa The Jews restored its name to the original name Heifa!

Next time you get junk mail addressed to "The Occupier" you might realise that we are all occupiers. The first human to set borders to "his" or "her" land was committing an act of theft or adjusting our current real estate laws? This whole "end the occupation to get peace" argument is nonsense. What is required is occupational therapy where attacking your neighbour is legally outlawed. Both Hamas and to a lesser degree Fatah have failed to do this. The word occupation has become a catch cry for ethnic cleansing or not making peace. Peace is peaceful occupation. Israel has never been purely Jewish in the past and this will continue into the future. Israel will survive the "end the occupation" crowd and the 22 Arab states will have to come to terms with Israel's occupation of the Jewish homeland. An Arab can be a citizen of Israel and some day a Jew can become of citizen of Jordan or Saudi Arabia? Well, we live in hope...

The point that the Palestinians are the indigenous people of the land, and that most Jews do not even come from there, and to this day are still coming to live there from all parts of the world gets If this author is "correct" in his thinking,then surely the Palestinians should be supported without question for their resistance against not only their oppressive occupiers, but those who disppossed them from their lands and homes, and still do so to this very day. If liberal means publishing articles like this, then Julious Streicher who was the Editor of Der sturmer, Germany's Nazi propaganda newspaper, should never have been tried at Nuremberg. He should have been entitled to freedom of speech and of the press as well. What amazes me is that this article is okay to publish, but people go to jail because they deny the Holocaust happened. This attilce not worthy of you Ha'aretZ, a paper I have always respected for its wide variety of opinions, but this is way overboard.

May I suggest to the author to study some history books about the inhabitants and history of Palestine/The Land of Israel. Some of the statements contained in the article (old and recent history) are simply false. Either the author considers the raeders of your respected newspaper to be ignorant of history and thus able to fool readers, or he himself should subject himself to a brief study of the history of the country.

"Only One In Ten Of Mine Get posted." (Eli) One in ten? And you are complaining? Lucky you!

"I'm shocked with every day Haaretz writing anti Israel articles led by Levy, Hass and Eldar." (Ken Jurist) That's quite natural. The difference between "anti Israel articles" and articles against the Israeli leadership's policies has always been beyond the grasp of simpletons of your kind.

"jordan belongs to the palestinians" (johnson) Go explain that to them. Having done that, come back and tell us why it is in Israel's interest to live aside a Palestinian state bordering Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia. "Why is the whole world blind to the truth ... " (johnson) Because, in order to believe "that the land of israel today is the ancestra home of abraham, isaac, jacob the forefathers of the jews" - one has to be a Jew. You could as well have asked, "Why is the whole world not Jewish yet?" - which would have said a lot about your clear-mindness.

Khalidi says that "the sense of Palestinian identity... ...emerged during approximately the same period as did modern Zionism (Khalidi, Iron Cage, 2007, p. 18). I think Khalidi is correct to focus on self-understanding, or identity, rather than objective political and economic structures to understand Palestinian distinctiveness, but I agree with Gelvin that Palestinian identity emerged after WWI and for much of even that time "inhabitants of Palestine viewed themselves as Syrian" or "adopted Arab nationalism, the idea that all Arabs comprise a single nation because they shared the same culture" (Israel Palestine Conflict, Cambridge University Press, 2005, p. 95)

"Time to move on." (Shai) Right. And to negotiate. But no one in his right mind would negotiate over a piece of land on which the seller is busy building houses for his family and friends. It's high time to freeze all settlement construction - before nothing remains to negotiate about. " ... had the Palestinians and other Arab states not said No at Khartoum ... " (Shai) Khartoum is irrelevant to this discussion. It is NOT the triple No that caused our leaders to believe that the territories we had captured were our genuine possession, and to relate to the stateless population we found there - as if they had consented to stay forever our silent and obedient subjects. "A phenomenon noticeable throughout history, regardless of place or period, is the pursuit by governments of policies contrary to their own interests." Historian Barbara W. Tuchman's opening words in her 'The March of Folly - From Troy to Vietnam'.

You said "Romans had dominion in Europe because they were Eisav`s descendants". Maybe we should give Europe to the settlers too? And as to the Germanic tribes admiring the Romans, ever heard of the battle of Varus? ( Varus Schlacht?? )Some admiration!

...he's a politically active "professor" of apparently nothing seeking a name for himself espousing right wing nationalism and rabble rousing. The Web site of "Professors for a Strong Israel" formed as an alternative voice to those dreaded "left-wing" professors is as enlightening as his earlier writings. From their "Who are we" some choice excerpts: "Judea, Samaria, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are integral parts of the Land of Israel ... We are categorically opposed to yielding control of any part of the Land of Israel to any foreign entity." And for those who don't quite get how extremist these people are PSI says: "To preserve the Jewish character of Israel, Jewish heritage and national values should constitute the basic elements of Israel's educational and legal systems." Now where has the world heard this stuff from before? The master race is and shall be forever the human race. Not PSI adherents.

Perhaps you should try reading a book rather than a review on the Net; your quote from the review provides no support whatever for your original claims about distinctive Palestinian political/economic structures, settlement patterns, etc. It was in fact the Yishuv, with its egalitarian, secular political and economic structures that represented a distinctive pattern in these areas in the region, not that of the Palestinians (Khalidi, Iron Cage, 2007, pp. 19-20).

Michael No you have it wrong We are not talking about Jewish presence from 700 to 1850AD in the Holy Land We are talking about 3450 years of Jewish presence in the Holly Land Yes Michael 3450 years of Jewish Presence in the Holey Land! Minority Majority has noting to do with it, When the Arabs, the Moslems, the Christians came here in their crusades which makes them alien to this historic land Minority Majority has noting to do with it, When in every conquest the invading conquerors who have settled this land mass murdered the Jewish community living in their historical land Minority Majority has noting to do with it, When our forefathers bought this land, and insisted on doing so even though they could get it for free! Abraham for example may have come from a distant land but at least he bought what he owned, if you don`t know then one thing we know he BOUGHT was land in Hebron including the Cave of the Patriarchs (Me'arat HaMachpela) for 400 Shekels. Abraham grandson Jacob BOUGHT a piece of land in Nebulous (SeHem) there he also built an Altar. Although Jews were a Minority in their own land, we have learned from our grate, grate grandfather Abraham to buy the land we own, there for really own it, I cannot say the same for the majority who call themselves Arab Palestinians! By the way Michael did you know that, The town of Haifa (English) Hayfa (Arabic) Heifa (Hebrew) The city of Haifa 900 years back, Haifa Fortress, or as it was recorded in the Cairo Geniza (מצודת חיפה) METZODAT HEIFA, was entirely inhabited by Jewish residents. The Christian Crusaders determined to take Haifa Fortress after a month of battles the Christians capture the Fortress and the Jewish town of Haifa, the Crusaders settled the town with Moslems and Christians, and call the Fortress Castellum Cayphas! The Arabs latter on called the town Hayfa The Jews restored its name to the original name Heifa!

...and that water is always an underlying need for Israel. It's easy to build a land of "milk and honey" when you steal the resources. You fool none of those who read the reports and pay attention. And no you cannot have the gas off of Gaza. Uh uh.

Axel Noah`s Big Tremendous Cruise Ship for Animals and family (The Ark) which took a long time to build by the way, did not take all animals of the world on it, it took two of each animal, Female and Male, how about this ship for size do you think a couple of small safaris could be mounted into it? http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/08/worlds_biggest/source/5.htm End of story!

Actually Ben, DNA proves me right. As far as the Yiddish language is concernThis tongue is a chief vernacular of Ashkenazic Jews, who are native to, or who have antecedents in, eastern and central Europe. Though it is one of the Germanic languages, Yiddish is written in Hebrew characters (some of them used differently than for writing Hebrew). Yiddish (meaning "Jewish") arose between the 9th and 12th centuries in southwestern Germany as an adaptation of Middle High German dialects to the special needs of Jews. To the original German were added those Hebrew words that pertained to Jewish religious life. Later, when the bulk of European Jewry moved eastward into areas occupied predominantly by Slavic-speaking peoples, some Slavic influences were acquired. The vocabulary of the Yiddish spoken in eastern Europe during recent times comprised about 85 percent German, 10 percent Hebrew, and 5 percent Slavic, with traces of Romanian, French, and other elements.

lets make it simplier then.Under Jewish hands, Israel became the "land of milk and honey" once again. Under Moslem rule, it had devolved into a de-populated, un-productive, back water. Their culture is based on the desert and it creates a desert out of whatever land it comes to. So, lets change vocabulary and speak of "cultures that destroy" as un-acceptable to "cultures that build for the future."

...and the idiotic idea that "Jordan is Palestine" that even Shimon Peres shot down as insanity. The above article by Ron Breiman sets reality on its head and Haaretz no doubt only posted it as an example of the rampant extremism that is undermining Israeli future.

bravo, mr breiman

Since most of Europe is still under the control of the Pope- a Roman Catholic -I would think that those Roman Catholics in Europe would quit trying to convince us it is otherwise.

In reviewing his book, "Palestinian Identity" (1997) the reviewer writes, " Khalidi demonstrates that there was a widespread consciousness of Palestine as a distinct region at least as far back as the mid-eighteenth century and that this consciousness heightened over time, notwithstanding the fact that the territory was subdivided among a variety of Ottoman administrative districts." www.mepc.org/journal_vol6/9902_schad.asp So gaining nationalistic consciousness occurred over time, and one also must be reminded that the majority of Palestinians were illiterate which would have been a factor, and they were once again occupied by the Ottomans, but they were still inhabitants of the region before this period. So what if they have similarities to other Arab nations, but they were also a distinct people to the region. The Jewish people have similarities (also similarity to source of origin) to the Muslim Arab peoples but we also have distinct cultural and religious differences.

There are quite a few people who seem offended by this article. Why? Besides some name-calling they offer little to support their case. The facts stated in the article are accurate. Unfortunately for the offended readers the facts do not mesh well with their pre-conceived prejudices. There is a pandemic of mis-information and ignorance, of which Holocaust denial is just the most obvious. Like little children the ignorant throw temper tantrums when faced with facts that they cannot stand.

The extremists on both sides will not allow a compromise solution. Only complete separation will fix this and that will require the relocation of large numbers of people. Unfortunately there will be much pain before the world realises that this is the only way forward.

Thank you for a beautifully written post on the history of this town, which gives us a sample of the continuing Jewish presence here in spite of governments that did not favor us. Jews never entirely abandoned Israel, and now we have returned.

Joan is not discredited, merely disagreed with by silly leftists. Her research is done in Britain's own files, which contain a lot paper trail of indifference and active resistance to the Jewish cause than they care to admit. Hypocrisy, William. Britain has Jewish blood on her hands.

But Israel is being generous and let this emigrants from Arab countries called "Palestinians" have a state, they would have one long time ago, but they didn't except the gift.

My grandmother's relatives were taken to the death camps of Europe by Nazis, and I do not appreciate your misplaced comparisons about Jews taking sovereignty in their land. Why should we wait around for the nations to create another plot against us? You already have a plot afoot, and that is to use Israel as a pawn to attack Iran - hoping of course for a counter attack that will destroy most of Israel.

For all the talk about what's going to happen, has anyone seen any changes in the political situation.Have Obama, the EU, UN or Arab League forced Israel to retreat? Of course not. It's just wild speculation. Until the Palestinians accept that Israel is a country with a Jewish majority, the vast majority of Jews won't care what the Palestinians or their sympathizers want and nothing will change.

Arabs were not "forcibly transfered" out of Israel; they left of their own accord. Allowing them back will destroy Israel, which is the only reason that they even bring up the subject. Truth is that Arabs who went abroad are doing fine for themselves, and why should they give up their new found success? Will they be able to make such good salaries in the ME? Ask anyone from Israel and they will tell you probably not.

Dear Rozanne: Romans had dominion in Europe because they were Eisav's descendants, and as such they were promised dominion in this world. But they were admired even by the Germans that they conquered, who called themselves "Holy Roman Emperors" even though they were neither holy nor Roman. Where are the Romans today?

Historically, the British jumped into the ME in the first world war, in order to grab the land for themselves while pretending to "help the Jews." Such hidden hatred allowed them welcome access to the Land of Israel and the League of Nations entrusted them with the Mandate of Palestine ( a region, not a people), which they were purportedly going to offer to the Jews for their national homeland. But this was all a ruse, and the British administration here did all they could to defeat the creation of a state for Jews, by stirring up racial hatred among Arabs for Jews and encouraging them to attack Jews while they stood by and watched. They also issued a series of White Papers in order to restrict or severely limit Jewish immigration to palestine, effectively assisting the Nazis by preventing them from leaving Europe. So your greatest hero of the past century weas largely antisemitic and treacherous, actively supporting Arabs here so that Britain would have favor in Arab eyes.

My uncle was also Ron. Ron in Hebrew comes from the root word to sing. The feminine version of this name can be either Rinah or Ronit.

The Arabs are grabbing land right and left, I agree. We are two competing peoples racing to settle this land, but in the end only one will have national sovereignty here: the Jews. While the nations were anticipated to call us "robber, robber" by the ancient Hebrew prophets, yet their cry is a fake one. Those who cry the loudest have done the most stealing of land, like the Americans.

Thanks for stating the obvious truth which is usually obscured behind false media reporting.

Dear David: History of the past hundred years proves that appeasement of terror regimes does not produce peace, but rather its opposite. The only formula for a strong and secure Israel is a one state solution, where Jews are the national sovereign here, and any Arab wishing to live here must live under our laws or be sent out of the land. Most Arabs are willing to live under Jewish sovereignty here, and those who don't wish it can find a home in Jordan. Obviously, we need to strong arm Jordan to accept their responsibility to allow all "Palestinians" the right to vote in their elections. Some already do this. It needs to be expanded. But they don't get a state here and a state there, while we are truncated to such an extent that we cannot defend ourselves, just to keep the western powers and Saudis happy. Be realistic and think of the future. Tel Aviv cannot survive without the Shomron and Yehuda, because there is not any strategic depth. I can stand on the hills and view TA

Sieg Heil Mein Fuhrur, which ultra-nationalistic zionists is this guy trying to please? Abbas a holocaust denier? Arab Immigration to Israel during which period? you mean the one that involved the ottoman empire? OMG I think I'm going to puke, this article is without foundation and with too many blantant LIES to point out in just one comment. Take it down Haaretz, you have more respect than that.

Dear Vlad: Thanks for showing your true colors here: arrogant purple. Jews did not originate in Russia, and your empire fell in 1989-1990 because it refused to allow Jews to migrate out of that region. Take care of building Russia into a better area and let us settle our local problems without European, Syrian, Iranian, or Russian interference. You have all the richest resources in the world and the greatest land mass of any nation, so there is not excuse for not making Russia into a world class economy, instead of the pathetic straggler that she is now. No one in Russia ought to lack for anything material.

The whole Goldstone report is bogus crap from leftist volunteer students who came from Europe to staff NGO's against Israel and her right to exist here. It is biased, hateful, and one sided. It is a propaganda tool of Jew haters in Europe and the ME.

There is no Bible written in Hebrew, Either Aramaic or Greek. Nor is anything you say truth but newspeak!

The only ethnic cleansing is being proposed by the Arabs, who have the nerve to demand that Jews not settle in the Land of Israel, which is an eternal inheritance for us. Non-Jews always lived under times of Jewish dominion here, and they were allowed to live in peace if they followed the seven laws of Noah. Aside from the ten peoples who were commanded to be eradicated from the land of Canaan, all others living here were first offered peace, and to live under Jewish sovereignty. If any Arab wishes to live here (among those who are already here, and not among the millions who claim to be Palestinians living outside of Israel), then I say fine, they may stay and accept the rule of law. If they want to aspire to build a state here, then they can move to Jordan, where they have the right to vote for their parliament under a Hashemite King. Arabs living here do have personal rights, but I do not acknowledge that they have a right to national sovereignty here. Not in the Land of Israel

Thank you for speaking as a patriot of Israel, something heard far too infrequently these days.

"Palestinians" are a media creation starting from about the 1960's so there is not any doubt about them being ancient Hebrews - they definitely are not. This claim was made about twenty years back by then PA spokeswoman Hanan Ashwari, who was at that time claiming that she was descended from Jesus' family. When a reporter asked her to confirm her Jewish ancestry, she suddenly was silent, and never made this assertion afterward. So much for the media circus. Lies and deceit will not prevent Jews from realizing their national homeland in its historical location. And no nation will rob us or push us into the sea.

I only have one point of disagreement with your five point agenda: Jordan is eastern Palestine and "Palestinians" are the majority of the population there, so they must accept the Arabs now living in Israel and then there will be peace. There already IS a Pal state here in the ME; but the nations just want to keep whittling those Jews down to size. What are you personally doing to rescue Tennessee from the ASH sludge that was dumped by accident there? Such beautiful country ought not to be destroyed by such a careless calamity. A school teacher from your state designed a car that ran on some type of batteries, but he has disappeared out of sight fifteen years back. If the USA ever got down to brass tacks, they don't need to depend upon foreign fossil fuels, and they can have true independence from OIL products forever.

Obviously, living in Tennessee qualifies you to determine where Jews can live here in Israel, right? Not so fast, partner! the so-called Green Line is a moveable fiction, and it is not some eternal boundary for Jews. It is not you who gets to tell us where our boundaries are located. Our boundaries are from the Mediterranean to the Jordan, and from southern Lebanon to Wadi El Arish. Mount Hermon in the north is ours, as is the Litani water source for the Jordan. The Golan is also ours, and Jerusalem is our eternal capital. And what goes on outside Tennessee is none of your business. Take your weapons and vend your hate somewhere else.

Israel should be given to us because we have this land as an eternal inheritance, and if you have a dispute with that, then take it up with the author (G-D). We Jews are the only nation in continuous existence who has a just claim to this land. And our receipt is in the Torah itself. ANY GENTILE who comes here to take my home from me will have a fight on his hands.

Well put Prof. Breiman. It is clear the Jewish people of Israel have been sacrificed at the altar of the Golden Calf of Zionism.

Stop impersonating a Jew, and stop proliferating a 150 year old argument against statehood and an end to exile. What problem do you have that secular Jews got some credit for building a state, just because they are not religious? Where were you for the last 150 years, if you are so Jewish? Stop the tired antizionist rhetoric, and be consistent. You come to Israel to visit and then have an attitude like this? Laziness and love of money is all that keeps you from returning here, Shaul.

Dear Traude, apparently you don't own a Hebrew text bible, and you do not understand the the word used is "ger" which means "dweller" and not "alien." A ger can be two types, but in the quote you gave it is referring to the converts to Judaism who followed the tribes of Israel from Egypt and accepted the yoke of the Torah. The bible also tells us that there shall be one law for all the people, both Israel and the righteous converts. Another category of "dweller" called "ger toshav" also existed here, and those people did not convert, but accepted the seven universal laws upon themselves in order to dwell securely here. So there have always been non-Jews living in Israel, even in the reign of David and Solomon the wise. But they did not vote to overthrow the king and to establish a separate sovereignty in the Land of Israel. Did you get that point? Good. The country where you live has similar policies I am sure, where foreigners come to dwell.

Arabs have it better here than in the countries surrounding Israel, and that is why they stay. Their Arab brothers treat them like rubbish. But foreign groups like to create a continuing conflict and to support terror against Israeli civilians. Torturing the Jews is a favorite sport of Europeans and the USA has done the same. Groundless accusation after groundless accusation continues to me made in western sponsored media, but the truth is that Arabs have it good here and that is a real threat to Arab regimes in the neighborhood.

You stated that Israel will "become the pariah of the world." I don't know what planet you live on, but Israel IS the pariah of the world; there is nothing we can do to stop such hate, and we need to draw a line and to fight for what is ours, and to evict the smart punk students from abroad who come here to stir up trouble for our troops. We need to have confidence in our rights and in our just cause, no matter what the nations think. If you had to wait for approval from the nations for your existence, you would not be here. They do not love you for following intl law or not following intl law. Their hatred will not cease until final redemption, and if you think they love you, then you are fooling yourself.

Zeev: Who said that my right to live in Israel is dependent upon International Law? This law is a convenient weapon of the nations, and they have constantly prevented us from migrating here to Israel, even during the Holocaust. Britain actively worked against European migration to Israel, while turning a blind eye to Arab migration to Palestine. It is alright for Britain and EU and USA to violate International Law at their convenience, and to promote their hegemony in the ME, but it is not alright for Jews to return to their ancient homeland and have sovereignty here? Sorry, I don't buy that. Have some respect for the countless Jews who made this land a viable state, regardless of their limitations. They have merit, IMO.

... all these profs, and the profs professing to be profs, should go home and sleep-it-off... erudition didn't bring even an ounce of wisdom... leila tov...

You have it all wrong; what you do not appreciate is that Arabs who choose to live here have it better than in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon. They prefer to stay here and to work with us than to return to the misery and squalor of the Arab regimes that they left behind. But only we have sovereignty here. If they prefer to live in the land of Syria or Jordan where they have a clear majority and sovereignty, then let them return to those conditions. But this is one Jewish state, and it ought to remain that way forever. Jews fought and died for this state, and even though I am religious, I realize that Hashem used secular Jews to found this state due to the lack of will among religious Jews to come here and build the state. This antizionist attitude can be found among Hareidi Jews and among Israeli leftists, and of course among those who prefer not to struggle at all but to live in the comfort of the exile and the perks it brings. But this life is a test.

You are not Jeremiah, and this is not three thousand years ago. Your prediction that standing up to bullies in the neighborhood will spell doom is also not proven by recent history here in the region. Take a good look at the miracle that Israel exists among hostile neighbors, and against the will of Britain, the EU, Russia, and the USA, what to speak of many hostile Arab neighbors. We could have had peace here if not for the constant meddling of the Briitsh and then the Americans, who have stopped us from defeating the Arab aggressions fully, time and time again. We were able to do this not because of our muscles, and not due to our bravery (although we have been brave), but because Heaven has shown us mercy and given us support. The doom you predict will not come about, except that there will be troubles due to doubts and equivocation and lack of will to fight, and desire to "be nice to the terror camp - maybe they will change" We need to have resolve, fight and depend on Hashem

... so what are you doing in Houston, Texas...? Come home...!

Sorry, dude, but you have it wrong... My family grave in Europe has a quote from the dry bones sequence (vision) of Ezekiel: "I will raise up your bones and return you to the Land of Israel." That quote was chiseled three hundred years ago, after the family was ejected from Spain and then Portugal, and we migrated to the USA. Finally, I have fulfilled the aspiration of two thousand years, in my person. I am not going back to live in a place where I am despised merely for being a Jew. This is my land, and I am not afraid to fight for it. If you want to come against us, take your best shot. But be prepared for this grandpa to fight you to the bitter end.

East Palestine is Jordan. Read the history of the British mandate. As far as the Hebrew bible is concerned, the borders of Israel then are pretty much what they are today, except that the water sources in southern Lebanon were also part of Israel. When the two tribes settled in what is now Jordan, they had to promise Moshe that they would come to the aid of their fellow Israel tribesmen in order to conquer the Land of Israel that was promised to them. In those days east of the Jordan was vacant and had good pastureland. Today it is desert. Also, Eilat was never part of the biblical land of Israel. But it aids us today in defending the state. Further questions? It is the genius

You have a poor education in history if you think that Jews have only a hundred years of history here in Israel. For starters, two villages that are close by me here in Israel were founded in the year of my grandfather's birth: 1878. That is yet the nineteenth century, is it not? 130 years ago. And the further back we go, Jews are always found here, in spite of the majority living in diaspora. Our Jewish claim to the Land of Israel is both most ancient and most morally just. Only the Jewish people are entitled to sovereignty here, however. Arabs were at best caretakers. There was never an Arab state here, and the Turks took over after Islamic conquest. Are you thus arguing for Turkish sovereignty here as well?

The book of Genesis tells Abraham he will give the land of Canaan (also know as Palestine) to all his descendants. But Ishmael was also one of his descendants, and his first son. But God also said, in Judges 2:21-23, ?In the future I will not evict any of the nations that Joshua left in the land when he died.? So the Jewish people do not have the right to claim all the land of Palestine. Israel accepted UN resolution 181 and declared itself a state, without Judea and Samaria being within its borders. Therefore, Israeli settlements in the West Bank are a violation of UN resolutions 242, 452 and 465. As such they are in violation of articles 49, 53 and 147 of the 4th Geneva Convention. These are violations of international law and constitute a war crime. Jewish religious beliefs do not supersede international law. If international law had to conform to the beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shintoism etc., there would be no international law.

The Palestinian people is a fiction. Palestine is a geographic name, not the name of a people. This name was invented by the Romans in order to insult the Jews and to demoralize them after the wars against the Jews here. But British and American and European handiwork are to be seen in the creation of a hostile Arab nationalism that cannot tolerate the presence of people who are racially and religiously different from Arab Muslims. Study history of the past one hundred and fifty years here and you will learn the truth. Do not rely on the media show; it is meant to obscure the truth, not to reveal it.

Don't worry Heather - Even if Arabs hang around here until redemption time, they will be quite shocked when Yosef stands up from his grave, and no government, either Arab or Jewish, will be able to stop the stampede out of here.

a valid one too. prior to 1967 Westbank(Shomron & Yehuda)were part of Jordan,Gaza strip was part of Egypt, now why doesnt Barack Obama pressure these two states to take these territories back??? And then if the Pallies want a state they can do it, we arent involved let the Arabs cater for their own, afterall who put the Pallies in refugee camps to begin with us or them???

" in eastern Transjordan " Transjordan means at the other (= eastern) side of the Jordan river. Eastern Transjordan is a pleonasm.

Well, for starters, then Arabs could more easily launch an attack on Jerusalem, and there would be no Jewish state left if Jerusalem falls. Israel is not just Tel Aviv. And Tel Aviv is not a suburb of New York; it is in the Land of Israel, in the ME. This is not even the plan of the current government; they wish to retain strategic security control over certain zones in order to better defend Israel's cities. But I say one state, with Jewish sovereignty. Arabs can become permanent residents without realizing their dream of an Arab empire on our ashes.

Wow, this was, by far, the nastiest and most misleading article I have ever read in Haaretz. How do the editors allow rants like this to appear in their journal?? Mr Breiman, the Arabs of Palestine have been living in this land for generations before you or any of your ancestors arrived from Eastern Europe. All that nonsense about "Most of the Arabs in the Land of Israel immigrated here after our waves of aliyah" is one of the oldest and most insidious propagandistic falsehoods ever spawned by the Hasbara, and has been completely debunked by historians. Palestinians are the real native inhabitants of Israel, period. Haaretz should pay some attention to the contents it publishes. This kind of articles only soil its good name.

The only thing which is demented is the nagging persistance of the nations and the slavish mentality of those Jews who are incapable of imagining true sovereignty for Jews here in Eretz Israel. Being cynical and postmodern may be cool while you are drinking coffee in Tel Aviv, but if Arab missiles from Kalkilyah are launched at you, you will think twice about your silly sophistication. Tel Aviv is not an island.

It is interesting that Jurgen Habermas, the leading intellectual figure in Germany today and perhaps the most important philosopher and social theorist since Hegel, notes that in Germany today there is a strong sentiment for confronting the "popular prejudices" that so darkened its past but much also in Germany today "merely serves as a disguise for antisemitism" (Habermas, Divided West, 2007, pp. 111-112). Such as certain forms of highly selective outrage.

Finally a non self-hating Jew writing in Haaretz! This has to be a mistake! Thanks Professor Ron Breiman, excelent article.

larger part of Palestine; Jerusalem the capital city of the smaller one. Amman, being the capital city of the Arabs. Jerusalem, the capital city of the Jews. It is that simple.

Long live Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel. It was paid for with Jewish lives, and we need to keep fighting until the world gives up its efforts to whittle us down to nothing. We rely upon Heaven to save us from the last great push of the nations to make a "final solution" to the problem which they created by their hate and intolerance. Our confidence in Divine Deliverance is expressed in the festival of Sukkot, where we return to our roots to celebrate redemption from Egyptian bondage. And we will also be redeemed from reliance on the so-called good will of the nations.

It is rather the fear of demographic doubling that has been shown to be false. Your grasp of figures is shallow and politically slanted. The British let the floodgates of Arabs enter western Palestine, while simultaneously preventing Jewish immigration here. The British role in deterring Jewish migration to Israel before and during the Shoah is well documented, so don't try to deny it any further.

You are not correct in your view that Israel is apartheid; Israel is only protecting the right to Jewish sovereignty in our land. Get your head cleaned out from leftist rhetoric and after therapy return and we'll talk. Just because you choose to live in the land of rhetoric does not mean we all choose to do the same.

If Haitian immigrants came to settle in your neighborhood and then wanted to declare an independent state, that would not be nuts, right? We all know how far they would get. Look what happened to David Koresh and his followers - similar fate for anyone wishing to cede from the Union at this late date, no matter how just their arguments may be. But Israel's claim is both historical and eternal, beyond time and space.

The issue is not whether Arabs have a right to live here; the issue is whether they have the right to national expression within the tiny area of Western Palestine that is the Land of Israel. I argue that they do not have the right to create another state here. There are plenty of states which they came from which already represent their nationalist aspirations. The present situation was created by England and the USA, and the donations of antisemitic Europe keep the PA afloat to be a thorn in the side of Jews here. Israel's very existence is an uncomfortable challenge to Europeans, who are determined to see Israel and Jews forever humbled and if possible, destroyed. I agree with Ron Breiman that Israel is being occupied by Arabs. It is the Land of Israel, homeland of the Jewish people, forever.

There are Arabs living in Israel with full citizenship now. The issue is that the spoiled guest workers who came here with the greening of the Land of Israel when Jewish aliyot cultivated the land, those same folks want a "Jew-free zone in the heart of Israel so they can plan to attack us as they did in '48. The US wants to be the one that Israel will turn to when this inevitable result arrives. They can then tell the Carlysle Group that it is yet okay to vend weapons to both "sides" of the contrived conflict. British and American interests have cynically prevented peace here because they did not wish Israel's ascendancy in the region. Israel is both the excuse and the offering for continued US involvement. Bad management, but keeping a finger in the pie. Jerusalem is the pie. Ancient anti-Jewish hatred is thinly disguised in the likes of people who hide their true intents, like Winston Churchill and certain US presidents. George Bernard Shaw's Major Barbara still true!

Guys: SARCASM, IRONY, TONGUE IN CHEEK!!!!! Why should anyone claim lands their ancestors traipsed through? I thought you would get it.

They probably hand all the real chores over to their assitants, and waste the rest of their time on political nonsense about which they know nothing at all, and thereby cause a lot of unnecessary harm to Israel.

" What has angered you so much " The combined stupidity and supremacism of this article is too much to cause anger, only astonishment that such people are running around without these white-clothed guardians at their side.

the Jordanian Government not denying citizenship and stripping ALL "Palestinians" of their citizenship last month. Another thing, why is the city of Rafah cut in half, just like Berling used to be? It is not a Palestinian city, but Egyptian. And why does Lebanon not grant citizenship to those born in that country? Arab countries talk a good talk but they have never walked the walk. They have left their own people rot for political advantage. Especially in Lebanon. It's just pathetic.

Thank you Gil for giving us the History of Sufforieh, It is typical to the History of most Palestinian Villages. Most West Bank villages follow a similar pattern. They were inhabitted by the Canaanites, where they got their original name "Hebrew is Lishon Canaan", some of the inhabitants converted to Judaism, or some Israelites settled them, after Christ they had a mixed Jewis and Christian Nazarine "Jewish converts to Christianity" inhabitants. After Islam many inhabitants converted to Islam. Note that there were no such thing a a Jewish Palestinian village in the 19th century, although many Palestinian villages were sometimes exclusively Christian. Shlomo Sands proves that the Palestinians are mostely the original Israelites. As for family names, most villagers have a first name as a family name, such as Yousef, Yaacoub, but their clan would be the village name such as "Tirawi" from Tireh, Talhami from Bethlehem, Badjali from BeitJala, Sahouiri from Beit Sahour, Aranki from Ein Arik

posted. Once in a while they throw crumbs for appearance. The tyranny of the left always drowns out the reasoned middle.

Axel Noah`s Big Tremendous Cruise Ship for Animals and family (The Ark) which took a long time to build by the way, did not take all animals of the world on it, it took two of each animal, Female and Male, how about this ship for size do you think a couple of small safaris could be mounted into it? http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/08/worlds_biggest/source/5.htm End of story!

Hello Colin Wright..... Ron Breiman has a doctorate in clairvoyance.... it comes from that famous University in the Sky. Which many people subscribe to... and always profess to see visions and hear voices that don't exist. Kind regard.... Colin

I'm shocked with every day Haaretz writing anti Israel articles led by Levy, Hass and Eldar.

Breiman's text reads like a Nazi pamphlet from the 1930s. It is not based on any historical accuracy, archaeological proof, right of determination or international law. The oldest human remains found in the area, at Ubedisya in the JV, date to c 1.5 million years (!) BCE. A few centuries of alleged - there is actually remarkably little archaeological evidence of it - Jewish hegemony is just one blink of an historical eyelid, not a remotely credible land claim. Jews converted from one religion and in turn were converted and assimilated in others. Ref residual population, a League of Nations report in 1920 stated that the Jewish population numbered just 10.8%, even after the 1st and 2nd Aliyahs. Of the 70,000 Jews, it stated: 'Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850, there were in the country only a handful of Jews'. Breiman's argument rests entirely on foundations of factual sand and wishful thinking.

There is a tremendous difference between those driven to refuge who return or seek to return to their homes as soon as the war ends and those who left and lived elsewhere for 2,000 years. Zionists cannot prove who owned any particular land 2000 years ago and certainly cannot prove lineage and chain of ownership while the Palestinian refugees can prove both. The Zionists of today are removed from their supposed refugees by hundreds of generations. To equate their claim with refugees of the same or shortly succeeding generation is ludicrous. The right of refugee return was largely honored throughout the 20th century except by Zionists and is enshrined in International Law. No one but a fanatical Zionist would argue that a 2000 year old claim should prevail over a 40 year old claim. If your claim was so just, why wait 2,000 years to return? This delay extinguished the Zionists' right of return.

No reason to sacrifice the Zionist vision on the altar of peace. Yes, clairvoyant one... your right Mr. Breiman, why sacrifice anything for peace. Let's have a constant state of war... for generations, like now. You know, with separate roads... one Arab one Israeli. Instead of traffic light lets have armed road blocks. Manned with settlers with M-16's slung across their backs. Each time children or tourists step on a bus... make sure they're searched for exploding bombs and the like. Oh yeah Mr. Breiman, when you have your little Latte in a café in Tel Aviv, look both ways before taking a sip. Watch for those stray motorists in bulldozer coming your way. Yeah... your right why sacrifice anything for peace. We're living our peaceful dream already.

This article is ridiculous, I can't believe I wasted my time reading it. The arguments he puts forth have been debunked time and time again by credible Western and Israeli scholarship. Bottom line, people a have right to live free on their own land rather than under a vicious military occupation. If your ideology necessarily entails the repression of others than you are immoral and should be confronted before you commit crimes against humanity.

You seem like a reasonable person in your responses to me, but even the explicitly religious Zionists contemporaneous with the general Zionists did not call for a Jewish state governed by Jewish law but rather for "islands" of religious communities in a secular society (see Brenner, cited earlier). This is not to say that Zionism did not reflect the history of the Jewish people including religion, but it was in fact characteristic of movements for statehood in the emerging modern world to reformulate that history, including religion, as the shared CULTURAL experience of a people seeking statehood. I do have sympathy for the earlier form of religious Zionism mentioned.

The author is a despicable historical revisionist who should be punished in the same way Shoah deniers are: lose his job; get audited by the taxman; have his friends and relatives threatened; and be blacklisted at every bank and gov't agency.

"Those countries have defined boundaries and cannot be forced to alter them, " "There is no land in this World under whose law current occupants are dispossessed" I am glad to see from your argument that you are against the "Right of Return" that Palestinians are advocating. Unless, of course, your argument only applies when it comes to Palestinians and not when it comes to Jews. B"H

he is a professor. It indicated that he was a "Chairman of Professors". Thus, maybe you should look up professor of professors, President of professors, the god of professors, supreme leader of professors or just simply god.

There is massive land and few arabs left so the arab diaspora that started with islamic conquests of europe, africa and mideast should return there. The arabs are not indiginous to other lands but took over in conquest and colonisation. Nobody argues when the africans expel the european colonisers.

Heather, your suggestion is insulting - and ridiculous.. Do you need a babysitter to keep your from typing? Had the Arabs of Palestine been treated with the respect that they deserved during WW2, we wouldn't be in this mess now. The UN (and allies) should have offered to buyout land from the people of Palestine (or wherever) to create a country for the Jews - instead of kicking out everyone that lived there and killing everyone that didn't approve.. It would have cost less and everyone would be happy.. Lets not deny property rights to people that have lived there for generations (in many cases longer than their Jewish neighbors), unless of course, you would like to be treated that way.?.. If Israel ever wants to be the great beacon of democracy that it claims to be, it will learn to integrate and respect its Arab community.. They can start by helping the Palestinians to establish their own state - as they should know how painful this process can be..

The Roman historian Cassius Dio describes a desolate Judea after a half-million Jewish soldiers were killed in the fiercest revolt faced by the Roman Empire. Roman losses were so heavy that Emporer Hadrian found it necessary to omit from his report to the Senate the customary introductory statement "I and my army are well". Palestine was not the only country overrun by expansionist Islam. It took the Spaniards eight centuries to complete the reconquest of Spain, yet no one denies the legitimacy of Spain or its right to exist in the community of nations.

Brieman is pretty much nothing more than a regurgitation of the pamblum passed off as historical fact by Jaon Peters in her book form the '80s, "From Time Immemorial." Completerly debunked by serious scholars. So too with this Breiman.

The author of this piece is completely deluded. There needs to be a reeducation camp for such people. Religious Zionism is a dangerous cult.

Axel What has angered you so much is it the part where the Author says ``We would do well to recall that the PLO _ the (all of!) Palestine Liberation Organization _ was founded in 1964 before there was an ``occupation``, ``the West Bank``, ``territories``, and other political terms that were designed to disinherit the Jewish people from the heart of their country, those swaths of land that were occupied - without quotation marks - by the Jordanian army in 1948, an occupation that lasted just 19 years. The PLO's goal was not to liberate the territories from Jordan, because those lands were in Arab hands. Rather, it aimed to liberate the ``occupied`` territories from the State of Israel, which lay within ``the Green Line``.`` Is that what angered you well it is all here in the Palestinian National Charter of 1964 http://www.un.int/palestine/PLO/PNA2.html

"it is especially clear when one considers "when" and "how" this "people" sprung up. To move this "people" to where they came from, namely East Bank, Syria, Iraq, is the only way to achieve peace in ME." It's clear fro your answer that you would also have advocated forcing American blacks back to Africa. You are so obcessed with ethnicity or religion - it matters not which - that you think your "special" entitlements are better than those of non-Jews. The vicious assumption that non-Jews must be forced to where you imageine they came from is startlingly racist, particularly becuase your beliefs of origins are so flawed. How can you deny geographic and cultural identity? You obviously have had no contact with the Palestinian people. These factors need not be ancient to be real. If peace can only be attained by injustice and ethnic cleansing, then it is not peace worth having. It is Zionist greed and megalmania that is the problem.

All nationalities, including the Israeli and Palestinian ones, require a great deal of collective effort to contrive, and no narrative of nationality is devoid of internal contradictions, coercion, sanctimony, and all the other characteristics of myth-making. Are there still serious people in the world who fail to grasp this? Yes--not intellectually serious people, but people who would make decisions that spread harm and misery, and death. Some are professors, others are errant kids wearing suicide vests. A pox on them all

Of course, there was a small Jewish presence in the Holy Land 700-1850AD, but small is the word. And as to Tzipori having a Jewish name, so what? Plenty of towns in Britain with Roman names. Doesn't mean the Romans have always lived here. Sure there are some Arabs with names that link to Syria etc. So what? They may still have been in the Holy Land for many centuries. And you simply can't deny that most modern Israelis are descended from immigrants to Israel in the last 150 years.

your claim that ashkenazi jews are descendants of the khazarian has been proved to be wrong time and time again. I can argue that DNA proves you wrong but this is much more simple... "One other piece of evidence against the Khazar Theory is the near total lack of Turkic influence on the development of the Yiddish language spoken by Ashknenazic Jews." care to explain this one buddy?

Contrary to your completely unsupported claims about distictive Palestinian patterns of settlement, political/economic systems, etc., Rashid Khalidi notes, using something called evidence, that "Palestinian society was generally quite similar in most respects to those of the surrounding Arab countries. It was dominated by a sizable landholding class" etc. Does this mean the Palestinians should not have a state? I don't think it means that; in the end being a people is a matter of self-understanding and that self-understanding came quite recently for the Palestinians, but please don't cook up a whole "anthropological" perspective on their history simply to suit your bias.

"you should not denigrate all three major religions" I regard as a serious denigration when people like you describe god as a real estate broker ...

What is Ron Breiman a professor OF, anyway? No one seems to say. I've been scanning Google, and of course Ron Breiman is always 'a professor' and 'head of Professors for a Strong Israel' and a political player in Israel -- but nothing else. No publications (other than the Zionist rants), no academic position -- these are never mentioned. Presumably he really is a professor. But what of? Does anyone know?

yet they demonize us because we do not convert. Conversion is the only way they can validate and legitimize their new religions. If the MOTHER religion (Judaism) does not recognize it's offspring, then their belief becomes suspect in their own minds. That is the generational problem. They don't have the conviction of their new religion unless we as Jews give it legitimacy by acknowledging Christ as the Messiah and Mohamed as the Messenger of God by converting to one or the other religions.

let cut the crab why is the whole world blind to the truth, trying to rob the jews of what are theirs.there is alot of pretending of not wanting to recognise that the land of israel today is the ancestra home of abraham, isaac, jacob the forefathers of the jews.

such way... If your grandfather wrote a book which says America is the property of your family, you deserve to be his grandson.

"By the way, Who is the Queen of Jordan?" The wife of the King of Jordan?

"If the Book is fictional and not factual" All religious books have fiction and fact intermingled. And even among Christians very few take for a fact that all animals of the world were assembled in Noah's ark ... to quote just one fictional episode.

Those who object Zionism, in fact, object Judaism itself. The main pillars of Judaism are: God, Torah, Land of Israel. This says a lot.

"General" Zionism was in fact a secular movement, moreover, many of them were socialists with the best intents to bring prosperity to the Arab inhabitants as well. (By the way, this is to the contrary to the false Arab claims that "Zionists came to displace and dispossess Arabs"). Being such, they avoided religious arguments, however, they could not avoid or escape the religious connotation of the word "Zion". Moreover, only Jewish nationalism - Zionism - has deeply rooted religious base. For example, one of the first modern Zionist movements founded by young Jews in Russia called BILU from the Hebrew initials of the biblical phrase Beth Jacob Lechu Venelcha: "O House of Jacob, come and let us go!", but they omitted the concluding words of the phrase: "in the light of the Lord". (Martin Gilbert, Israel, 1998, p.5) See, they, and nobody else, could not and cannot avoid deep religious sense of Zionism, because Zionism is part of Judaism.

Axel At least you read what he wrote unlike most people here By the way, Who is the Queen of Jordan?

for printing this racist diatribe. There is no better way to counter the propaganda that Israelis are "just like us." Next time you see a picture of an Arab woman voting in an election in a propaganda piece designed to show that Isrraelis are "just like us" remember that Israel is filled with people like Brieman who want to deprive Palestinians of the limited political rights they have as a first step to a "final solution".

Axel No the Real Stroke of Genius is that Christians and Muslims believe in our old Jewish history Book or its Characters. If the Book is fictional and not factual, why would two new leading religions, who suddenly sprung up, use Jewish, sorry Hebrew characters from a fictional Book for their new belief?

Who was it that passed those laws making Jewish Germans sub-citizens? The joys of racists twaddle, that golden feeling of superiority. Mr. Breiman is a man who lived too late - and was of the wrong ethnicity. Is he the kind of person who stood by the streets and cheered as the man who told them they were the master race drove by? Or is he the man who pandered to their vile side?

Yes Bill, thank you to the likes Bibi and Ron Breiman for finally dropping the mask after years of trying to fool the REAL democracies of the world that Israel was serious about peace. I have posted a link to this article in several political forums and many are now agreeing that Israel is indeed an apartheid state with an ethnic cleansing policy. Well done all you talkbackers and Mr Breiman for finally exposing the truth of Israel's position

It maybe that most of present day Palestinians are immigrants with the exception of the original Philistines and Pheonecians. But they go back to 700 AD,while the Jewish immigration goes back to 1920, the year of the British mandate when there were 50000 Jews in Palestine. Mr. Beirman's proposal to give the Palestinians Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship is laying the foundation for a one state solution.You supress their aspiration for so many years or so many generations,but eventually they will demand and get human rights, civil rights and political rights in the land they lived for many genrations.Israel will then become a binational state by default.

People constantly argue on who was first to the land. Chain of title is illogical in this situation. The land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranian Sea has roughly 50% Arab and 50% Jews. If the world were to use chain of title then 50% of the population would have to leave the region. Germany, Poland, Russia, Jordan, and Egypt would reject having to absorb people based on what occured thousands of years ago. The world has moved forward yet we Palestinians and Israelis continue to think backwards.

Great!!, Bravo!!!, Ron Breiman. This is our response to the delusional palestinian and left politics.

"The Arabs of the Land of Israel will continue to live in their present homes and will hold Jordanian and Egyptian (for Gazans) citizenship, voting for their respective parliaments." Even a professor should know that citizenship can be given only by the respective states, and neither Egypt nor Jordan seem inclined to give Egyptian/Jordan citizenship to Arabs under Israeli rule ... But perhaps a professorial approach does not deal with such trivialities.

Was the german jews just "occupiers" of the fatherland?

"Jewish claim to the Land of Israel in light of the Balfour declaration and the Bible." (Sarah) The Balfour Declaration has no value whatsoever in the eyes of the international law, and what, I ask you, would become of the UNO if its members are allowed each to appeal to its own holy scriptures? Or should our leaders call on the entire world to convert to the 'true religion'? They may be sometimes stupid, but ayatullahs they are not. Thanks God for that.

1.Here will be the greatest stumbling block of The Middle East Peace Process. 2.God and eternal peace will never be persuaded to dwell permanently in a two-state solution and a mutilated Jerusalem. 3.The God who leads the way to a two-state solution and a mutilated Jerusalem is either an imperfect God or may even be the opposite of God. 4.The peace process can neither move forward nor turn back and world leaders do not have the right food for the hungry, weary, angry, violent, untrusting, fearful, cynical and difficult multitude. 5.The Biblical Solution: find the small boy mahdi with the Moshiachs Meal of Five Loaves. The first loaf engineers the arrival of the Messiah and that is just the appetizer.

There's no need for Israel of even America to get involved in Arab countries. With all due respect As'ad, Arabs have never had a history of true equality, civil rights (dhimmi status for non Muslims) which are the solid foundations of a democracy. Arabs have always been ruled by dictators/monarchs with the mentality of might is right.

The Missionary Thomson simply writes what he saw crisscrossing the Land of Israel in a nearly 600 page book published in 1882. He was not a propagandist arguing a particular cause, just an eyewitness. "To walk thus through the land is the exact purport of my visit, and I mean to make it mine from Dan to Beersheba before I leave it.? P. 24.

agree and with his government to the partition of the two states - one for the Jewish people and one for the Palestinian Arabs? I think generally it is irrelevant as to the numbers of population at a given time in the Holy Land region and the cultures that existed in the region to resolve the current political/territorial impasse. From an anthropological perspective the Palestinians residing for centuries in the region of Israel have been a distinct people from all realms of analysis - religion, language, styles of art and dress, familial organizations/clans, settlement patterns(villages mostly) and their political/economic systems. These inhabitants whether they came from the Ottoman Empire or in the early 20th century, nevertheless, are a distinct group who wanted independence from the Jewish state since the rise of the Jewish state and before. To them and in the eyes of the rest of the world, they are occupied since they lack equal rights to the Jewish inhabitants of Israel.

"The Temple Mount had been the holiest site for Jews for over 1,000 years ... " (Jake in Jerusalem) That is an indisputable fact. As is indisputable the fact that it has remainded so under the Romans, the Byzantines, the Persians, the Seljuks, the Crusaders, Arabs, Mongols, Mamelukes, and the Ottomans, and the British. And the Jordanians. And it will remain the holiest site for Jews always, no matter the uniforms of those who control it.

For whatever small percentage the major settlement blocs account for, the Israeli government has ALREADY offered to make up that percentage by offering land from inside the Green Line. That seems fair enough. Arab communities on the Green Line should become part of Palestine as politically that is how most of those Green Line Arab communities are affiliated. Any rights those residents have now to work and gain health care in Israel should be retained. Similarly, border line Israel settlements can be incorporated into Israel, because THIS MAKES MORE SENSE than wishing for the impossible. Not every situation can be neatly tied into a bow and the best we can do now is a messy agreement because of decisions made by both sides. It'd have been best for a peace agreement had the settlements not spread, but just the same it'd have been better had the Palestinians and other Arab states not said "No" are Khartoum, which is what gave the expansionists the wind in their sails. Time to move on.

"General" Zionism, which led directly to the formation of the state of Israel, was a secular movement for statehood and "avoided religious arguments" like yours (Brenner, Zionism, 2003, p. 113). Jews have every right to a state right where it is without recourse to religious arguments, not the least of which is the ten-million pounds they paid to primarily Palestinian Arab landholders, who made very nice profits on the land sales to Zionists (Wasserstein, Israelis and Palestinians, Yale University Press, p. 47). And other minor items like the UN Partition Resolution the Palestinian Arabs started a civil war rather than accept (before the pan-Arab attack).

Finally, comes someone not afraid to defend Jewish claim to the Land of Israel in light of the Balfour declaration and the Bible.

if israels 1922 mandate can be altered ivar so can that of jordan syria lenbanon and egypt ! sinai was never part of egypt and should be turned over the the " palestinians "

" I am sure that haaretz regular audience just loves this one." I rather suppose that haaretz published this to show that there are Hamas-like types on the Israeli side, too ...

What Israelites brought to Canaan is monotheism of Yahweh and vigorous military might against Philistines, ancient Greeks actually, who settled on the sea coast and threatened Canaanites as well. At the end, it was Israelite-Canaanite alliance against Philistines. So, this is the history.

" ... Israel shouldn't be forced to accept a single state." (Shai) Big mistake. No one is trying to force Israel to become a "single state" on ALL of Eretz Israel. Our settlers will do that, all by their own. If given free hand. I thought my point was pretty clear, but I guess you overlooked it. Here is which may make it clearer. "Settlements prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state in the Land of Israel. This is the goal. And this is the reality." Daniella Weiss, a major pro-settlement activist and former mayor of Kedumim (an Israeli settlement in the WB) to '60 Minutes' correspondent Bob Simon. "Those who dragged Israel into creating the huge, foolish enterprise over the Green Line, sowed settlements amid the Palestinian population, on occupied territory, only to thwart any future diplomatic agreement on a division into two states, will apparently not let Israel fix this historic mistake." From "The settlers are not resting", Haaretz editorial, 04/10/2006. www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/770058.html

Professor Ron Breiman is correct. Today's Muslim riots at the holiest site for Jews, the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, prove his point. The Temple Mount had been the holiest site for Jews for over 1,000 years before Mohammed even invented Islam. Muslim and Arab occupation of other peoples' lands has been one of the traditional methods for the expansion of Islam. When I lived near Gaza City in the 1960's, the local Arabs never identified themselves as "Palestinians". This is the point of the article. The claim of "Palestinian" nationality is a historical fiction. So-called "Palestinian" Arabs moved into the land of Israel a century or so ago in large numbers for precisely the same reasons that they immigrate anywhere else today - they go where the jobs are. That they then claim to have always lived in the host land is their standard Modus Operandi. Islam even claims that Muslims were in Australia before anyone else! (See Sheik al Hilaly of Lakemba).

of the books. Numerous information in the Bible proved to be historical facts, confirmed by archaeological digs and historical sources outside of the Bible. For instance, Roman destruction of Jerusalem in Roman sources, Josephus; The Temple described by Greek and Roman authors, Masada's Roman sources and archeological findings and so on. But even much earlier sources and archeological digs of the recent time (William Dever, Israel Finkelstein a many others) confirm Israelite settlements on both sides of river Jordan in Iron Age I period (1200 B.C.E.) Potteries with Hebrew inscriptions, form of typical Israelite housings (4-room plan), animal bones remains, all animals, EXEPT OF PIGS, and so on. Your claim of "Palestine stolen by Jews from the inhabitants" is just laughable. First of all, it was not "Palestine", but Canaan. Secondly, Israelite tribes absorbed many of local Canaanite tribes (for example, Hebrew is the Canaanite dialect, it is well known fact).

"The Jews probably amount, in round numbers, to ten thousand, the Moslems to eight or nine thousand, and the Christians of all sects to six or seven thousand." So finally even in Jerusalem which was always regarded as keeping the largest colony of Jews in ante-Zionism era there were more Non-Jews than Jews. "saving the best for last" Indeed.

Mind you SH, something happen between 1947 and 1964. Arab refusal to UN's partitian plan (which the Jews accepted) and pan-Arabic military aggression on the Jewish state. An armistice was signed and everyone remained on those lines.Israel as well as the Arabs gained lands. Arabs after their illegal aggression took over Jewish lands and made them Judenrein; Judea, Samaria and East-Jerusalem came under Jordanian illegal occupation and Gaza under Egyptian illegal occupation. It was well understood by vertue of the law of war that Israel as the aggressed party was to remain on every part of those gained lands. Further Arab aggressions made them lose more lands which remained "unallocated" lands pending a final, negociated, peaceful solution. By the way lands legitimately taken over by Israel never belonged to any sovereign, recognized country or political entity and were integral part of the "National Jewish Homeland" legally and officially recognized by The League of Nations.

"The Bible stipulates that the Land of Israel is given to the children of Israel" A book written by Jews determines what is given to the Jews ... a real stroke of genius. My grandfather wrote a book which says America is the property of my family. When will you move out?

I had to check the URL to see if it really was haaretz. Finally someone with common sense. I am sure that haaretz regular audience just loves this one. The truth hurts dosnt it?

Hang on tight Israel. If the Creator of the universe promised you the land, then who can take it from you. Have faith in G-D. Not even satan and his followers can defeat G-d. Soon the Almighty will prove this to the world.

There was a Vladimir Zabotinsky who espoused the erection of an iron wall against the Palestinians. There are now many vladimirs in Israel , many non Jews who immigrated in the past10-20 years claim rights over there at the expense of Palestininans who have been there for generations. Many of the responders understand that. And by the way- for the one who is too dumb to understand my comment about the Cana'anites- I did not say they were the first to settle Palestine, no one knows who were. The Cana'anites were the so called Israelites of 'Biblical' times.

Michael Ron is a Hebrew name and unlike the Anglo Saxons, it has a meaning in Hebrew The meaning of Ron (רון) is Happiness. Anglo Saxon my ass As for your claim that Arab the families living today in WB, Gaza, and Israel have lived here for a millennial, sorry I must protest, but the ones who stayed here for millennia and even two and even three were Jewish families. Here are three Jewish family names whom lived here continuously since the destruction of the Jewish Second Temple Toma תומא Uda עודה Zinati זנאתי As you are so keen into getting into Jewish Family names Why don`t you look at Arab ``Palestinian`` Family names as well, Where their family name can tell you a lot about their story of origin as well Here are some Arab ``Palestinian`` Family Names ``Al Sham``, ``Sham``, ``Shami``, ``Al Shami`` - Syria ``Halabi`` - Syria ``Ottoman`` - Turkey ``Mazri``, ``Al Mazri`` - Egypt ``Mograbi``, ``Magreb`` - North Africa ``Hurani`` - Jordan By the way did you know that Today`s Arab village of Kafr Yasif was once a Jewish Village Today`s Arab village of Kafr Manda was once a Jewish Village known as Kfar Mandi Today`s Arab village of Kafr Kanna was once a Jewish Village known as Kfar Kannah Did you know, Tzippori (Hebrew) Suffuriyeh (Arabic) Tzippori was a JEWISH town for over 2000 years, during the first temple 1000 BC, during the second temple and the Hashmonic era 167 - 63 BC, And during the Grate Rebellion of 66 to 70 it was the only Jewish town that was not destroyed. At the end of the second century the Jewish Sanhedrin moved to Tzippori, At the year 220 Rabbi Yehoda Hanasi finished the compiler of the Mishna in Tzippori, During the 4 century Tzippori was considered a very big city with 18,000 Jews, Tzippori scholars took part in the making of the Talmod Yeroshlami completed at the 4 century, At the year 351 Tzippori was the place were the rebellion against Galos began. During the Byzantine period the Tzippori still was Jewish Town with a Jewish majority and a Christian minority. At the Year 363 there was an earthquake the city was rebuild, and was a Jewish town till the middle of the 5 century. From the middle of the 5 century, Tzippori is made up of a mixed Jewish Christian community, the Jewish community shrinks but is still beating and kicking. During the 7 century after the first Arab conquest Tzippori name is changed to Saffuriyeh. During the Christian Crusades (1099 to 1290) Tzippori name is changed to Saffuri and a church and a fortress is built there by the Christian crusades. After the battle of Hattin the fortress is demolished Mamluks, and probably, so was the town! This Marks the 2000 years of Jewish presence in Tzippori At the end of the Mamluk Period, Somewhere at the beginning of the Ottoman period, probably between 1516 and 1561 (Only 500 years ago), an Arab Village named Saffuriyeh was built on top of the old Jewish Town of Tzippori! The Arabs call it Saffurijeh The Christians Saffuri The Jews restored its name to its original name Tzippori!

Peki`in, The village of Peki`in for example was once a village which all it`s residents were once Jewish, the Cohen Families that lived in village never left the land of Israel they lived there continuously since the destruction of the Second Jewish Temple, in the 11 century Christians settled Peki`in, only in the 18 century the Moslem and the Druze settled there too!

This guy is the Zionist counterpart of David Irving--just deny there were Palestinian Arabs before Herzl--'it really was a land without people'--he deserves the same respect as Irving--that is, nothing for the nonsense he spouts.

It was just a thought experiment - I was trying to show that it's ridiculous to say that "we gotta force Israel" when there's nothing more "right" about that than there is in forcing the Palestinians, the Egyptians or the Jordanians to accept what they don't want to accept. Frankly, I don't think the issue of boundaries is the biggest difficulty - that can probably be resolved most easily between the PA and Israel. But I don't think the PA will ever accept anything that Israel can also live with, so eventually I think there will be a war that will result in one side being wiped out. Scary? Yes. Necessary? No. But all that ever happens is that both sides shout at each other and the loudest is supposed to win. Nobody's making sense, and the 1 state solution is just another example of not making sense.

esther(?) you are right.Who needs a strong Israel???Much better to give back the whole of the Land to the moslem terrorists,and go live in Uganda...But I wish you remain in TA,under sharia "Law",go around in a burka,and enjoy a nice infibulation(look up the meaning in a dictionary)...

1. The Bible stipulates that the Land of Israel is given to the children of Israel, not to "aliens". consequently, the ownership of the land is established - Israel is the rightful owner. 2. Aliens who stay WITH the tribes, not AGAINST them. Aliens who want to destroy Israelites, like Arabs, were to be fought and destroyed, so said the Lord: "And I curse those who curse you."

Zeev, again, out of curiosity, didn't you get that the gist of the question is that if it's legitimate to say that the Palestinians, the Jordanians and Egyptians don't have to accept my proposal to unite these areas with Egypt and Jordan, that Israel shouldn't be forced to accept a single state, either? I thought my point was pretty clear, but I guess you overlooked it. To be clear: The point is that NOBODY should be forced. ALL sides need to compromise, INCLUDING the Palestinians, YES EVEN to the degree that they won't get everything they think constitutes a "Just Peace". Unfortunately, there is no solution that's just for everyone, and it's about time that fact is realized by all sides.

In 1948 there were some 650,000 Jews in the Yishuv, but 1.2 million Arabs. Does he mean to say that these 1.2 mill. Arabs flocked into Palestine because these 650,000 Jews made the place so irresistable that they could not resist moving there and founding some 500+ brand-new villages ?? David

We are the only people that constituted an independent nation in the land of Israel. The Babylonians, Persions, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Ottomans and British were all conquorers from a distant Empire that never established an independent nation in our land. We are the rightful owners of the land of Israel.

The League of Nations has been dead for already a very long time. The UNO, which replaced it, feels totally free to make its own decisions, and when it admitted Israel as one of its state members, no "historical rights" were mentionned, nor 'who was first there'. "British authorities insisted that to implement the Mandate, many Arab inhabitants of the land have to be resettled elsewhere in Arab lands." (Vladimir) Perhaps. A claim that has to be substantiated. In any case, the British authorities never even tried "to implement the Mandate" that way, nor to resettle (a nice laundered word) anyone "elsewhere in Arab lands." (Except, of course, the Mufti, as a punitive measure.) THIS is an indisputable fact. They were much wiser than that. "As to the 'professional help', all British Foreign ministry at the time would have to seek it." (Vladimir) Yes, perhaps, at the time. Certainly in September 1938, when they abandoned Czechoslovakia to Hitler. " ... the International Law is still not implemented yet, which is the reason why there is no peace in ME." (Vladimir) I fully agree with you. See the UN Security Council Resolution 242, and the principle of inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by War.

I've been waiting to read something like this from an Israeli news-service for such a long time. Thank you.

Palestine was partitioned in 1922, with 76% given to the Arabs, largely forming the modern state of Jordan. Jews were FORBIDDEN to live there. Until 1967, it was the Arabs who argued there had never been an independent country of "Palestine," since it promoted their goals. Recall Jordan occupied the West Bank, and Egypt occupied Gaza. Only after 1967 did the Arabs claim the reverse. As Walid Shoebat, former terrorist, says "Why was I a Jordanian on June 6th, 1967, and a Palestinian the next day?"

First something that sounds as though it's the start of an interesting discussion and then: "Once the Jews are expelled from the heart of their country, redemption will come to Zion." Gideon Levy et al have never said that or even hinted it. On the guy rushes, delirium gaining momentum, thinking that if the flow's fast enough the garbage will be swept away and he'll get a huzzah at the end anyway. In 1964 there was no occupation? How does Mr Breiman explain the discrepancies between the Israel the UN granted when it declared statehood and that of 1964? Jaffa was supposed to go to the Palestinians, remember? Just because the borders of 5 June 1967 are now fait accompli and no longer disputed, it does not mean that there was nothing to complain about for the Palestinians while we were achieving nationhood. Professors for a Strong Israel, better take off the visors and come out of the cave. The PLO doesn't have spots, leopards do. The world's changed and donkeys go on braying.

The history of the land is written first of all in Hebrew (which is by the way the dialect of ancient Canaanite): in Bible and other Jewish sources. Aramaic was the spoken language of the land much later. It was not language of literature. Greek and Latin authors also wrote about history of Jews, confirming existence of Hebrew Monarchies (United and Divided). Arabic was never a language of history of the Land of Israel. Moreover, Arabs were not interested in pre-Islamic history at all. Arabic came to be known widely approximately 1,500 years later, when Arab bloody conquest swept the lands of Middle East and North Africa.

No land grab nor religious delirium. No "illegal occupation" but a historical, moral and legal right of possession. Supported by historical facts, The Tanah, the New-Testament, the Coran as well as legally recognized by the League of Nations. Permanent Arab population increased 120% between 1922 and 1947. Massive Arab population increase took place together with (by the British restricted) Jewish immigration. Tens of thousands of Muslims and/or Arabs have been brought in by every foreign conqueres, occupiers and new rulers. 1830 Egyptians settled here by the ten thousand, Arabs from the Huran (Syria)region, Muslim from the Balkans by the Ottomans, by the British during WW1..all well documented for whom wants to see it!

I agree with you that a 2-state solution would be best, but Butler is right - it's not an option. Do you really think that the Palestinians would accept the impotent Bantustan that Israel might eventually offer them? Do you really think that any future Israeli government would withdraw all those settlers? Even if they were allowed to keep those along the border, there would still be tens of thousands in Ariel and other places, preventing a viable Palestine. And how would Gaza be linked to the West Bank? Butler is right. There are no options left because a single state already exists and it will not be split into two. The real solution lies in giving all the people living in it real democratic rights and preventing tyranny and blood letting. International supervision of some kind will be needed. Sorry, Jim.

Wow what a brillinat idea, having Palestinian Arabs whose families for generations lived in the smae place suddenly become foreigners in their own land by giivng them Jordanian or Egyptian passports so they can vote by absentee ballot in those countries.. I like it SO much that it inspires me to propose smiliar solutions for the Jews: a) Withdraw the IDF from the west bank and Golan, but let the Jews living tere stay as law abiding residents of Palestine, keeping their Israeli passports and voting n its elections b) If not, why not give the Israeli Jews ALL passports from Poland, Germany, Lithuania, Russia, etc, all the lands they realy came from so recently, and make them foreign residents who will then vote in the elections of those countries?? Im sure it will help make the governments of those countries much more friendly to Israeli lobbying.. I mean thats how its already done with the US, no?? :-)

i never heard of this book, but it is quite amazing. i really wasn't sure what to believe about the period before 1900 in israel/palestine, but look at this: "starting from the broken buttress of Herod's harbor [ceasarea]...in three and a half hours we cross the great highway from the north to Ludd, ramleh, gaza and egpyt. The plain of Sharon is here not more than five miles wide from east to west, but as we rode over the hill from Bakah, the view southwards was boundless. In all that ride of five hours we did not pass a single village." not a single village! i used to think that the whole 'land without a people' thing was baloney, but...perhaps the author is right.

The chance of the Palestinians accepting it is probably nil. Someone here pointed out that there has never been a Palestinian nation. I don't think that matters, there is one now, it's comprised of the people who are currently occupied by Israel and/or were displaced in 1948 or 1967, with their descendents. I don't think their desire for their own state will be denied by anything except the alternative of a binational state in Israel/Palestine. Which is likely to eventually happen because if it comes down to it, the ideological settlers will prefer that to being forced to return to Israel. One question about what you had in mind: would the settlers be allowed to stay, and if so, under what conditions? But I think it's moot in any case.

The truth has been ignored or twisted for so long that one wonders how it has been rewritten so that instead of honestly relating the history of the conflict here in the Middle East we, the Jewish people who were murdered long before the establishiment of the State of Israel by the local and also by imported Arabs in the name of jihad are the ones who are to blame for the violence in both Israel and in the world in general. Prof has it right and it is about time that the real truth be spoken and written

Read original sources and you will discover that Joan Peters' thesis that the Arabs are relative newcomers to Palestine is absolutely correct. T.E Lawrence ("Lawrence of Arabia"), the champion of Arab nationalism, wrote in June 1909 on his visit to Palestine on foot and on horseback in search of crusader castles "The sooner the Jews farm it all the better: their colonies are bright spots in a desert." The archeologist Whooley who accompanied Lawrence on a separate trip wrote "It speaks wonders for the children of Israel that they left Moses alive after he brought them to a place like that". Quoted in Ronald Florence, Lawrence and Aaronson (Penguin Books, 2007).

world. if something seems ridiculous to most people, does not mean it is ridiculous. Americans know who is the natives, who is not, in spite of how many years European Americans live there. Besides, your objection should be directed to arabs - it is them, and probably you - who believes that Jews are not natives to the Land of Israel.

Except israelis and blind israel supporters: no one in the world can argue about the legitimacy of the Palestinian case - the criminality of the Israeli racist state - the silent transfer of palestinians to accommodate imports from other countries... The numbers and years mentioned mean nothing on the ground; israel is an illegal state occupying someone else's land; kills, transfers, displaces thousands from their original countries (including jews from abroad) to make an artificial state... based on occupation. no one can say otherwise.

This guy is one of them. Either you make a deal on a two state solution or accept a bin NATIONAL STATE. Or be wiped from the pages of time. Personally I wont lose sleep if you cjoose the latter.

"You are aware that the Turkish Government does not take any reliable census, and hence all statements founded upon its estimates must be mere approximations. It is certain, however that the population of Jerusalem is steadily, though not rapidly increasing. My own acquaintance with the city extends over nearly half a century, and during that long period I suppose the population has doubled--that is, from twelve thousand in 1833 to something more than twenty-five thousand at the present day. The Jews probably amount, in round numbers, to ten thousand, the Moslems to eight or nine thousand, and the Christians of all sects to six or seven thousand. This gives a total population of over twenty-five thousand. But what is even thirty thousand to the vast multitudes who in former times dwelt in Jerusalem, or were accommodated within its walls?" P. 559.

You can't almost totally abandon your homeland and live elsewhere for almost 2000 years and then decide to return and think you can take over the WHOLE place. That's not the way civilized people behave. Period.

?Destruction of Public Highways? There is, therefore, nothing incredible in those Biblical narratives which necessarily imply that wheeled vehicles of various shapes and sizes were in common use in the country in ancient times. Indeed, it was not until after the conquest of Palestine by the tent-dwelling Arabians, whose favorite means of travel and transport are the horse and the camel, that the public highways were neglected, and of course good roads quickly disappeared.? P. 323.

?Eriha, modern Jericho?is without exception, the most squalid cluster of human habitations I have yet seen?.the wretched hovels, and the vulgar reality is deplorable to the last degree. The people, also, appear more squalid and demoralized?results which may have been produced by the influx of strangers, especially of the more abandoned classes.? P. 386-387.

The Nation of Israel, Named after one man who as the story goes was the recipient of a gift of a covenant made with him by God. The covenant is with him and his offspring. NOT the Khazars who converted to judaism in the 9th century. Many of the "Arabs" are actually converts from Judaism to Islam. But they are still of the blood of Jacob (Israel) and therefore have a biblical right to the land. A right the Khazar converts do NOT have.Less than 10% of the Israelis are of the blood of Jacob. The rest are merely squatters.

where did u come from?

?But under Moslem rule most of the land has become the property, not of the cultivator, but of the government; and while this ruinous regime lasts, this country will remain as it is. No man will plant orchards and make improvements on land not his own; but give him a secure title, and, under the crude husbandry of even ignorant peasants, Philistia will quickly recover her ancient prosperity. This, however, will never be realized until the Bedawin are driven back to their deep deserts, and kept there by a firm and stable government. Neither vineyards, nor fig-orchards, nor vegetable-gardens can exist while these plunderers are allowed to roam at will with their all-devouring herds and droves of camels.? P 193.

Even the jews who lived in Palestine were arabs, those who were imported from here and there are the occupiers.

?No Englishman can visit this deserted and melancholy site without recalling the romantic career of Coeur de Lion. Askelon will surely be rebuilt at some future day of prosperity for this unhappy land.? P. 178. ?The grove which Abraham planted at Beer-sheba, and all other trees, have long since disappeared from this deserted site; and it is now, and for centuries has been, utterly forsaken, except by the Bedawin, who continue to water their flocks and herds at the wells.? P. 298.

It was to Gilgal that the thousands of Israel, worshippers of Jehovah, gathered several times every year to keep the great feasts of the Lord?. No place could be better adapted for the purpose than this, with its warm climate, its abundant supply of water, and its sandy surface upon which to encamp. But now it is utterly forsaken and abandoned. The Hebrew nation has been scattered to the ends of the earth, and the visitors to Jericho and Gilgal come hither from distant and little-known regions and countries to meditate, to wonder, and to deplore. P. 389.

?Our Bedawin guides were careful to keep the animals in what was once a path, before it was hidden by daisies, which were actually higher than the backs of our horses. They said the whole region was full of old wells, pits, and broken vaults; and even they themselves would not venture to penetrate the jungle for fear of falling into them? The marsh was crowded with buffaloes, cropping the coarse grass, and storks wading about in search of frogs and other prey. In three and a half hours we crossed the great highway from the north to Ludd, Ramleh, Gaza, and Egypt. The plain of Sharon is here not more than five miles wide from east to west; but as we rode over the hill near Bakah the view southwards was boundless. In all that ride of five hours we did not pass a single village.? P. 79-80.

?How comes it that Caesarea has for many ages been utterly deserted? ?The aqueducts broken, there was no longer an adequate supply of water; and this gone, the surrounding country relapsed into its natural state of a barren desert, and the sand, constantly accumulating from the sea, buried up every green thing. Thus solitary in itself, it early became infested with robbers, so that no one could live here in safety?? P. 72.

You cite population figures for Jordan in 1920. TransJordan did not exist until 1922, when the UK split off the land east of the Jordan River, about 75 per cent of the Palestinian Mandate, to found the country. Its population soared after that time, as Arabs followed the Hashemite rulers into the land. It became Jordan much later!!

My first view of this Land of Promise has been gloomy and discouraging to the last degree. A long low reach of featureless coast? Not a hill, nor a house, nor even a boat, relieved the dismal solitude.? P.6. ?In our day it has acquired an unhappy notoriety in connection with Bonaparte, the plague, and the poisoning of sick soldiers. I myself was shut up within it for forty days in 1834, while it was besieged by mountaineers in revolt against Ibrahim Pasha? In consequence of the pirates who infested this coast ? Jaffa was entirely deserted?? P 9.

He wants them to not be able to hold citizenship in their own land? We have seen how well 'taxation without representation' has worked before. Does he really want to go there?

William Thomson, a missionary for 45 years in Syria and Palestine, wrote a comprehensive 592 page book "The Land and the Book: Southern Palestine and Jerusalem" published in 1882. His meticulous region-by-region description of unpopulated landscapes includes the following: "How melancholy is this utter desolation! Not a house, not a trace of inhabitants, not even shepherds, to relieve the dull monotony. Was it thus when Peter came from Joppa to Caesarea?" A visitor traveling the same route today would traverse the cities of Tel Aviv, Herzliya and Netanya with over a million people. Thomson continues, "Much of the country through which we have been rambling for a week appears never to have been inhabited, or even cultivated; and there are other parts, you say, still more barren. How could a land as small as Palestine, and with so much waste territory support the vast population assigned to it in the Bible?"

Arab Occupation. One of the more intelligent,& up to the point, article that one has seen on these pages. It's a pity that the author didn't address the issue of Gaza. Gaza. A radical solution will have to be found. It can't remain an unsolved problem.

will never understand the practise of this matter in the most countries. As a citizen of country with originally 13 nations and 1 million refugees after WWII I wonder when we arrive in the 21th century.

"Most of the Arabs in the Land of Israel immigrated here after our waves of aliyah." What a crock! This is the old, discredited Joan Peters "From Time Immemorial" BS. Israeli historians have completely discredited it. But the Zio-fascists continue to spout it with a straight face. There's more evidence that Jews drink the blood of Christian children than that Peters is right.

"Who was first" is very important in the eyes of the international law. That is why the League of Nations confirmed that Jews have rights to re-establish the sovereignty in ALL part of Mandatory Palestine and made it to the International Law, that is still not implemented yet, which is the reason why there is no peace in ME. Your next argument: the crux of the matter is not in "not professing the right faith", but in working towards stripping Jews from their sovereignty in the Jewish homeland. As to the "professional help": in this case all British Foreign ministry at the time would have to seek it. British authorities insisted that to implement the Mandate, many Arab inhabitants of the land have to be resettled elsewhere in Arab lands. Resettled, but not deported, as you claim.

The whole middle east was taken by arabs in the seventh centry, to say that palestinian arabs should be relocated to other countries in ME while the arab of other ME countries should stay where they are isnt right either for the orriginal inhabitants of these lands. Each of these countries nationals have established their own identities and so do Palestinians dont and arent willing to consider themselves Jordanians, vice versa, and require their own sovereignty. To join the west bank to the rest of the land of Israel would be a great even biblical achievment but it is unfortunatly not feasable in the 21st centry. Two states is the best option.

AB's argument would be stronger if he/she had not ignored the non-Arab population in 1920. This numbered between 150,000 and 200,000. Even starting with the lower growth figures the Arab population would have required a growth rate of 3.1% per annum as opposed to the 2.2% that he/she quotes. British documents in Kew records office show a significant increase in the number of Arabs entering Palestine during the mandate.

Biblical claims should have no currency in this dispute. We have to deal with the world as it is, not with how one group or other interprets biblical references or archeological digs. The founding of the state of Israel, however justified, displaced a people who were living there at the time. That is a wrong that has to addressed in any long term settlement. Deal with it! There is room for both peoples if they show a genuine understanding of compromise.

"I hate the view that a land "belongs" to a people which is not livinbg there." So I assume you advocate against the "Right of Return" Or does your "hate" stop when it comes to the Palestinians? B"H

Or, as probably is the case, you dont give back land to previous owners UNLESS it is the Palestinians? B"H

I am glad to see from your argument that you are against the "Right of Return" that Palestinians are advocating. Unless, of course, your argument only applies when it comes to Palestinians and not when it comes to Jews. B"H

One man one vote one state. That would be real democracy. Religious democracy is a delusion. This goes for Iran as well. For real democracy to exist it MUST be totally secular. Religion is emotional and should not be to be confused with objective thought. Objective thought is needed for rational, logical decisions. The kind that democratic leaders are supposed to make. Shalom.

"I've always wondered [...] why not leave Israel as a Jewish state, and incorporate Arab Palestinians into the sovereign Arab states to the east and west?" (Shai) You better stop wondering. No one would agree to such a solution. Not "the sovereign Arab states to the east and west", not Israel, and not the Palestinians. Israel has been the only democratic state foolish enough to try, desperately, for 42 years, as if led by dimwitted, to impose its will on a foreign and stateless people. And there is no indication at all that this is going to stop soon. At least not until Israel turns, sooner or later, given the demographics, into a One state for two peoples, extending from the sea to the river Jordan, where a Jewish minority will be faced with an impossible choice: Either to forcibly impose its rule over an Arab majority, OR to become a Palestinian state.

"The Romans held most of Europe at one point in history..." I agree with you, Italy state who once owned France should try to retrieve it. As a consequence the Turkish state who owned what's now Israel should not claim this land. Of course you don't talk about a so-called Palestinian state which never existed and so never owned anything. If you mean that matters of facts are not to be discussed, Israel is now a matter of fact the same thing France is a matter of fact.

He reminds me of those weirdos of the French "Nouvelle Revue d'Histoire". Those persons will always culturally relate at least up to Homer or Jacob, but defend their existence by means of post-enlightenment science: rifles, H-bombs etc.

Why don t try new solutions. j' m totaly agree with ron

Some so the new DNA testing done in Israel and W. Bank is telling different story. That some of the so called Arabs have been there as long or longer than the Jews and is some cases are closer in DNA to the Jews of 2000yrs ago than many newer Jews to Israel. Some of the Palestians have Roman blood, some Jewish blood and some that could be Cana`anites. While some Palestians are part Arab not all are. Using Jewish religion as a base for a nation is one thing but saying the Palestian are new to the area is not fully the true.

That is exactly the right way to see things

forced to leave Poland between 1945-1950 won't be allowed back to their country?

Professor Breiman has told the truths that are so inconvenient for Arab supporters worldwide. The question is: how is Israel to act on them in a cynical, callous world, where oil, money and diplomatic gains are considered by the nations to be vital, while the rights and lives of Israelis and the Jewish People generally are considered negligible? And where the fear of Islamic terrorism has turned formerly brave nations into trembling moral dwarfs?

for solutions, which became final after some time of fruitless creativity.

y the way, if he claims that most of the Palestinian Arabs migrated to Palestine during the past 100 years, then he would certainly agree that most of the Jews living in that country did so as well. Therefore, there is no justification for exclusive Jewish or Arab rule but some sort of bi-national regime for all of the immigrants and their descendants who have repopulated Palestine over the past 100 years.

It really doesn't matter when they came from, but they are there, and they were there, and Israel's settlements are the direct result of their lands and water being confiscated by force. Then, because of "security concerns," they have to pass through checkpoints to move any where, often subject to searches. They have no civil rights, no right to vote, and no say at all on how they are ruled over. That is the real issue, that is the "problem" as far as the rest of the world is concerned, and this is what is going on daily, and for more than 40 years, while this author's friends play at the fantasy of being repatriated to their homeland. Some homeland!