Don't worry, there won't be peace
It's not possible for the strongest kid and the weakest kid in the neighborhood to conduct talks on reconciliation and friendship when the talks are based on arm wrestling.
By Alon LielAbout two weeks before the Israel Navy's confrontation with the Gaza-bound Turkish flotilla, a radio interviewer asked me how the matter would be dealt with. "The more force we need to use, the greater our loss will be," I replied.
I feel the same on the eve of the talks with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. The more force we exert in the negotiations in Washington, the greater our failure will be. It's supposed to be good that direct talks are beginning. The problem is that they will not result in peace. It's not because we don't need peace. Without peace with the Palestinians, we're just about hopeless. But it won't come.
Achieving peace requires an entirely different approach by the Israeli leadership. The Israeli government headed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman can't shake the sense that it is going to fight over peace with Abbas - a war over territory in the West Bank, a war over Jerusalem, a war over the Palestinian refugees. If we don't entirely change this approach by making a complete political and diplomatic U-turn, the talks will fail.
If the intent is to begin a struggle with the Palestinians in the presence of the Americans and the world, it will be a waste of everyone's time. In such a case it's clear to everyone that we will "win." Who is Abbas compared to us? Where are his fighter jets? Where are his submarines? Where is his Dimona nuclear facility? Where is his elite special operations force? Where are his connections in the U.S. Congress? And if he really gets us mad, we can always stop transferring him funds altogether.
It's not possible for the strongest kid and the weakest kid in the neighborhood to conduct talks on reconciliation and friendship when the talks are based on arm wrestling. It's absolutely clear who will win. But there will be no peace or reconciliation after the strong one beats the weak. It's like the case of the Turkish flotilla. The so-called victor in the tussle is the main loser.
Nonetheless, Netanyahu is our only hope at the moment. He has positioned himself before the Israeli public as the country's No. 1 patriot. He has no real rival in the political sphere. Israel is thriving economically, in large part thanks to him. He is capable of leading Israel to peace, but not with the fighting spirit he is bringing to Washington. Going into peace talks in a warlike mood presents greater risks than opportunities. The failure of the talks could turn the West Bank into another Gaza Strip and Abbas into Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas - and that's without mentioning the international implications.
We have to talk in Washington rather than threaten, to plan (together ) rather than manipulate things, to convince and be convinced, all with the knowledge that we have no alternative to this process. We have a lot more to lose from the talks' failure than the Palestinians do. At worst, they are liable to remain without a state of their own, but we are liable to lose the one we have. We won't physically lose it, but its identity will be lost along with its mission as the state of the Jewish people.
Mr. Prime Minister, only one person in the world can fail in these talks, and his name is Benjamin Netanyahu. If there is success, you will have to share the Nobel Peace Prize with Abbas and special U.S. envoy George Mitchell. If there is failure, it will be yours alone. And your failure, Mr. Prime Minister, will not be our failure, it will be our disaster. Because, for the time being, I don't see the U-turn that is needed, I don't believe there will be peace. Get ready for the commission of inquiry.
The writer was director general of the Foreign Ministry during Ehud Barak's term as prime minister.
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The talks are meant to fail which will "force" Israel to continue with the expansion of the settlement enterprise. Such a shame. I am sure that Israel was looking forward to evacuating settlements and forming a new nation for the Palestinians.
why no negotiate to buy bank hapoalim with no money on the table? every deal relies on an exchange SOMETHING FOR SOMETHING satisfactorry to both parties . the arabs have never had "money" to bargain with and thats the problem!!!! not anything else !
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29abunimah.html?_r=2 this article in the new york times sums up the only way peace talks will work in the middle east.Unless like the irish situation the spokepeople for all sides in the conflict are drawen in they will be no peace
Haaretz promoting complete surrender. I am curious why Haaretz has not already changed it's banner from Haaretz to something more reflective of their Islamist gidelines
Bibi hasn't even met with Abbas but already Alon Liel has decided that if things go wrong Bibi will be theone responsible not Abbas. So Abbas can do no wrong he is the angel Bibi is a devil wanting to corrupt him. Bibi is going to go into these talks trying to get a deal based on Israel giving as little as possible whilst Abbas wants a deal based on him giving as little as possible taking as much as possible. Neither side is looking for a fair solution or wanting to give out of love for another. So far though I would say Bibi is taking things more seriously than Abbas because he wants bi weekly meetings but Abbas has refused. Abbas is also making demands from Bibi he knows he cant deliver if he is going to hold his coalition together. Dont automaticall blame Bibi for any failures blame whoever is responsible when we see why things broke down.
Because Netanyahu has bragged about killing the peace process. He's proud of that accomplishment. Care to tell me why this time will be any different?
what was that you said about barely making in colledge--chafeeka
It appears to me that in many of the non-secular middle eastern states (including Israel) policies and government are often driven by unreasonabe religious fanatics. Each accuses the other of being evil and wishing them death and the plague ( for example Rabbi Ovadia Yosef). Peace will be a mirage for all of them as long as religious leaders an fanatics are at the leaver of politics. Reason and religion seem to be an insurmountable contradiction in the middle east.
A failure of these negotiations will mean the end to the two state solution, which in return means the end of of the Jewish state, and the rise of the Bi-National state. They way settlements in the west bank and east Jerusalem are growing, in my opinion this is the last chance for an agreement on a two state solution.
Throughout human history power has constantly shifted. Those that care to look, can see the power shifting right now, away from the US and Israel toward China and the Arabs. If Israel continues on its current path, the Arabs will soon be able to forcibly take back their land and force all the Israelis into exile. Either Bibi stabs the settlers in the back and negotiates a fair deal with the Palestinians or Israel will eventually disappear. Right now is the best deal Israel will ever get. When the Arabs have the power to impose their solution, Israelis will deeply regret not making a deal TODAY
Just look at Israel's last war with the Arabs. Israel lost hundreds and hundreds of its combatants, while the Arabs in Gaza only lost 10. And what about the time Sudan destroyed an Israeli weapons convoy? And that time that an Arab spy from Dubai penetrated deep into Israel and killed a Mossad agent. The Arabs are becoming more powerful indeed.
He was unimpressive as consul in Atlanta years ago, so of course he rises in the ranks. Who failed at camp david? compromise is a 2 way street!
Alon is right, Netanyahu’s Hypocrisy can afford to be magnificent in its promises yet he never intends to go beyond his promises; it costs him nothing....but it keeps him in the PM chair ! The tragedy of Israel is the electoral system, Israel is the only country in the world, which is at war every seven years and replaces its government every two years. Since established in 1948, Israel had 31 Governments, out of which only two.. completed the full 4 years term in office. Not one MP on the national level is elected directly, not one elected official owes any obligation to the Israeli public, his loyalty is solely to his party. The real decision makers are "MERKAZEI MIFLAGOT" or “party centers" ( no one really knows how they got there in the first place..) and "VAADOT MESADROT" or "organizing committees". And then you have the GOALITZIA-(coalition).... so Bibi requires massive concessions and back room dealings with his religious partners, who promised their voters to protect for example the settlements movement - Gush Emunim, who were, are and will be a constant obstacle to Peace. A minority of only 12 percent of the Israeli population... but with the electoral- proportional system, they prevent any future settlement with the Palestinians. Without the settlement , peace might have been here already together with those Palestinians who do seek a peaceful solutions. The electoral system answers as to the mystery of why Peace was not achieved so far. The electoral system is the real danger to Israel’s future! Israel can recover only when the system will change ,and only when the Religious parties will be out of the political arena ,as they use and abuse the system to gain power and block progress for any peace initiative . Peace and Democracy are jeopardized..... as Settlers are preparing for war, said: Shin Bet Chief Yuval Diskin in November of 2008. To avoid a civil war could be a historical event and bear no less of importance than peace with our enemies. But Peace will happen only when a real change of the electoral system takes place. This is the only remedy to the current political disaster. More Jewish settlers and Haredim declare that their duty is to obey their rabbis over their duty to obey the laws of the state. The ultra-Orthodox believe that the laws of the state are secondary to the commands of the Jewish Halaha... In this context petty politicians , fail our people and devastate the most desired commodity –Hope! It is time to realize that Peace you make it with your enemies and not with your friends, as only the dead...have seen the end of war. The PM has to remember while in Washington, that no one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing... because he could do only a little... ! But Bibi is A-F-R-A-I-D to lose his coalition ,the support of his father and wife.. No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning, as fear......We should lead a passive ,no vote revolution and force the Knesset to vote for a change of the electoral system, alternatively boycott the upcoming elections which so many abstain anyway.... The hope for Peace is shattered in the current system and that’s the tragedy of Israel.
Quite the contrary. He is the only person who will win. He is only turning up now that Mossad have told him Obama has discounted the US publishing its own plans. Thus he goes to Washington knowing he will face no significant US pressure. The timing in the run-up to the US mid-terms is probably not coincidental either. Why is he going at all? Bibi will find a way to end the talks and blame the Palestinians. The US s will roll over - he will probably be called a "man of peace" by Congress. He will then argue it shows Israel has no partner for piece and use this to whack Kadima - if the last ten years shows anything it is that conflict benefits the right in Israel. Having "made an effort" in the talks he will ask for a quid pro quo in terms of action on Iran. There is every chance he will succeed. Underestimate him at your peril.
That was the funniest post Ive read in days. You'll see just how well Bibi goes along because he knows what awaits on Nov 3 if he doesnt.
you had given all your possessions to the needy ,just as you want Israel to give everything to the poor pals.
Congratulations Mr. Liel on this great commentary!! To expand on your analogy of the 'strongest kid in the neighborhood'. The strongest kid can also loose one day if all the other ones gang up on him. Peace between Irael and Palestine is fundamental for Israel's long term survival! Let's hope that sanity will prevail.
Absolutelly excellent!!! Unfortunately the title is also true - don't panic, it won't be pace! As some palestinian leader told us, Bibi, Lieberman & Cie want the Hamas in Gaza because they want no peace. And the price will be our disaster, but they don't understand and/or they don't care!
No U-turn in horizon, but an endless right-handed spiral !!
Alon Liel claims that only one party to these talks holds the solution - Netenyahu. How absurd. For Israel's enemies settlements aren't the problem - how could they be when Arab aggression against Israel began decades before there was even one settlement? No. The problem for Abbas, Assad, Ahmedinajad and his puppets in Hamas and Hizbollah is that Israel exists as a Jewish homeland. The best Netenyahu could hope for is a hudnah, and he knows it, as do the current lot in the White House. Thankfully for Israel, Netenyahu is going into these talks with his eyes wide open. Success to him!
I think the informed world outside already knows what you have just said. What it doesn't have is hope, a bit like the Palestinians. They have nothing to bargain with and that was, is and always will be the problem when you're dealing with "might is right". Abbas will be stitched up again like Arafat was many times before him. There will in time be no West Bank and that is exactly the reason Israel is stalling the talks at every opportunity. I've seen the look of derision on Bibi's face as he shakes hand with Abbas..it say it all for me. Zionism is destroying the country from the inside. Settlers will be the harbingers of civil war. And then the world will sit and say "what to do"!
A German proverb says: Right without might is to deride! (Recht ohne Macht wird stets verlacht!)
To put it as "peace is better than war" is so misleading. We are not being asked to give up some hills in Judea and Samaria. Islamic BHO simply promised to deliver Jerusalem to the Arabs. Just go and read his Cairo speech. Although in all Western nations, it is declared that religion is separated from state, this separation fails to be true. Europe still teach their kids in all elementary schools the fabricated story that Jews killed Jesus. It is tempting to say Israel should resolve the contradiction "Jewish-Democracy" and separate itself from Judaism. But the world around us is not secular nor democratic. If the Jewish people renounces the state of Israel and goes back to wander in the Diaspora, antisemitism will certainly reappear. The left-wing promise "give up that little hill and there will be peace" is a mirage.
You apparently know nothing about anything, or you are very deliberately spreading lies. The Cairo speech promises nothing of the kind. Europe is secular (though there are some countries where religion play a bigger part than in most others). European schools do not teach anyone that Jews killed Jesus, it is possible that there's some exception to this (we do of course have our fair share of religious nut-cases, but if you want to claim that I want to see some proof).
I do not believe that many European (or at least West European) Christians see Jews as Christ killers. They may of course teach that mankind in common betrayed Jesus (according to their beliefs), and that mankind had/have strayed away from God. Though most of us Europeans (at least Northwest Europeans) are secular, half religious or very liberal in relation to religion. Considering common elementary schools, they probably range from totally laic (that is non-religious) schools to schools slightly forming all children after the dominating local brand of Christianity. Then there are of course some Catholic, Evangelical, Jewish, Muslim etc. elementary schools, that may range from slightly religious schools to very religious schools. I do, however, believe that for example a young religious person becoming an elementary school teacher in order to form society in a Christian way, would prefer relatively cosy and happy Eastern stories and absolutely not hate stories. Other elementary school teachers would amuse the children with the rich secular traditions: painted eggs, chocolate eggs, Eastern hares, fairytale witches, going from door to door in witch dresses in order to get candy, coloured feathers on newly sprung out twigs, grass and leaks emerging from the bare soils of pots placed in the windows and so on. In the region I grew up in even big bonfires and fireworks, originally meant to scare bad spirits and witches away when you let the cattle out of the barns. In short, a celebration of the newborn nature. The other obvious fabrications of yours, I will let others comment ... To sum up: you will have to calibrate your perception of reality, both in concern to time and other aspects.
From the end of BHO Cairo's speech: "Jerusalem is a secure and lasting home for Jews and Christians and Muslims". This precisely means Jerusalem belongs to the international community, namely under UN rule, and we know Islamic nations control the UN. Certainly it means that according to BHO Jerusalem is not supposed to be part of Israel's territory. Concerning your "secular Europe", just enter end school in France say, and ask "who killed Jesus?". Want to bet on the answer? hint: they will not tell you "Pontius Pilatus".
Well, me and my wife shared an apartment with a British graduate student in biology. Relations were correct though not warm, and we managed well, each respecting the privacy of the other. At the end, while we were about to leave she asked us "why did you killed Jesus?" and "killed" was personally, physically, me. We began to tell her Jesus was a Jew, and she stopped us and said she learned Jesus was a Christian living in the Vatican, murdered by the Jews "living in Europe like today". Where do you think such ideas come, if not from school? Anecdotal stories aside, the "realpolitik" behind the story is obvious: emperor Constantinus decide to embrace Christianity, and early Christians were actually Jews - the largest part of Judaism. The problem was Jesus was crucified, together with many other Jews, by the Roman empire. The solution Constantinus found was implemented in the Nicea conference 325 AD. The solution itself was, accepting the crucifixion factual by the Romans, but depicting Pontius Pilatus (who actually was "unkind" even to his family) as weak and falling under the will of the Jews to kill Jesus. This politically convenient accusation was the main cause of the Holocaust. If Europe would give up its profound deicide accusation of the Jews, we in Israel could also end the farce of "Jewish Democratic state". But two generations after the Holocaust, this is still to soon.
Reading your last comment (15:12) more carefully, I would say she seems to have been rather ignorant in history and Christianity. Putting bits and pieces together as best as she could, ending up with something that even would astonish a non-religious person as me. Also recognising that you wrote the first comment, that I commented 14:23, I must say that also you could benefit from trying to get a somewhat brooder perspective. And to the question "Who killed Christ?", many Europeans may anwer "Who cares about that? Not I anyway." And by the way, in 9th grade my class learned about Jews from a Jewish teacher, and in 11th grade we visited the regional synagogue once. (A few years later, my father also told me that my grandmother had a Jewish father, but she does not seem to have had much to do with him.)
The Romanian Cristian Orthodox Church has religion classes in all schools of Romania. A very good thing. Everybody studies the Bible! In the holy scriptures is incontestable proof of guilt, regarding the killing of Isus Hristos, the Holy Savior Messiah. I will not name the people responsible. Everybody knows! If i say ho the killers are, you say i am antisemitic. I am not antisemitic, i just not like very much the killers of the Savior Messiah, and the modern descendants of them eider. Repent the sins of your forefathers, and embrace the Cristian Messiah, the true god, and your sins will be forgiven forever! The only way!
Israeli need to drum this thru their skull: they are the occupiers, and it is the Palestinians who are the occupied. Israel holds all the cards, except one: there can't be peace unless the Palestinians agree to peace. Be generous. Give them a REASON to want peace. But this author is entirely correct: the mindset of Netanyahu and Lieberman is to attempt to screw the very last advantage that they can out of the disparity in power: to rip off the Palestinians and leave them with as little as is possible. What, indeed, is the point?
you should consult several dictionaries on the meaning of the word peace! since 1948 it has a new meaning " what will israel concede to the arabs " ? for 90 years the talks have gone on and on and on because the participants do not grasp what words actually mean . 2010 will be no different! ara b palestine is called jordan!
And one thing that BOTH sides need to understand is that compromise seldom results from outright demands - nor will it come from confrontational discussions or those laced with animosity. These will invariably result in hair being raised and heels digging in deeper. The ideal would be for them both to approach these negotiations, and the future relationship between Palestinian and Israeli, as one of partnership and mutual cooperation.