Don't search for logic in a dream
There is no rational argument against withdrawing from the West bank. Yet the dream of Greater Israel has never disappeared.
By Zvi Bar'elIt's hard not to envy the U.S. president, who has the power to get in front of the cameras and announce that by the end of August most soldiers from his country will leave Iraq. And it's hard to avoid a tinge of envy when the president taps 2011 as the target for the start of troop withdrawal from Afghanistan. True, U.S. troops will continue to be deployed in Iraq for the next two years, and Afghanistan will not be devoid of foreign soldiers, but it's now clear that America's occupation has an end. American occupation is not Israeli occupation. It begins with a war and ends with some sort of arrangement; thereafter, the liberated country can do whatever it wants, as long as it does not harm American interests.
That's the difference that stirs envy: The United States did not establish overseas colonies, nor did it send American settlers to live in the occupied lands, so it's free to halt its occupation whenever it chooses. The United States needed to sway opinion both at home and abroad, exclusively for waging war. For withdrawal, it owes no excuses or explanations.
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The Givat Hayovel outpost in the West Bank. |
| Photo by: Nir Kedar |
Israel enjoyed the same luxury many times in the past. It decided when to withdraw from Lebanon. It pulled out of the Sinai Peninsula twice, and even withdrew from parts of the Golan Heights. Israel also accomplished the near impossible by withdrawing from the Gaza Strip. But withdrawal from the West Bank, especially the eastern parts of Jerusalem, is a completely different story.
At first glance there appears to be a significant difference between the territories and Iraq or Afghanistan. The West Bank runs alongside Israel, whereas Iraq is thousands of kilometers from American cities. The West Bank can be used as a launching pad for missile attacks on Tel Aviv or Ben-Gurion International Airport, whereas only oil fields stand to be lost in Iraq.
But it's not the well-worn security argument that blocks Israeli withdrawal. That's because Iran poses an existential threat, and terror threats emanate from Lebanon and Gaza. Israel has no withdrawal issue as far as these lands are concerned. When Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu shows concerns about developments on the eastern front, he is referring to Iraq and Iran, not Ramallah, a West Bank town heaving with shopping centers and discotheques. There is no oil in the West Bank, which does not provide us with foreign workers. The West Bank has stopped serving as Israel's economic hinterland, a role it played in the 1970s and '80s. So no economic argument is at play here.
Nor can the danger of a collapse of the governing coalition serve as a viable excuse for not withdrawing, because even when center-left coalitions were in power and had the option of withdrawing, a pullout from the West Bank was not on the agenda. In other words, no rational argument is left to block a withdrawal. Israel's refusal to pull out is rooted in another dimension - the dream of Greater Israel has never disappeared. Two states for two peoples is a pleasing and rational slogan that appears to reflect political realism, but it's not strong enough to eradicate a psychological complex of power and bury a dream.
This is the core of Israel's schizophrenia, the reason the country has moments of lucidity during which it sounds reasonable, amenable to direct negotiations, and even eager to engage in peace talks. The prime minister is even convinced he is ready to concede - that's the phrase, not withdraw - to the Palestinians. He's aware of American pressure and of the implications of a prolonged occupation on Israel's future. But most of the time Netanyahu and his government are captive to an illusion; they are kept in thrall by the psychosis of a dream.
The Likud government and extreme right are not the only ones who suffer from this disease. Most of the public succumbs to it. This is not a right-wing public, even if it grants an electoral majority to right-wing parties. This is a public that dreams, or is at least accustomed to, a dream that has persisted for 43 years. As part of this dream, the political right is prepared to annex the territories and the 3 or 4 million Palestinians who live there. That way, the state will not relinquish one holy particle of land.
The right lives with a paradox. On the one hand, it is ready to relinquish land within the State of Israel populated by Israeli Arabs. On the other hand, it wants to annex millions of Palestinians because it covets the precious dowry of land those residents would bring. In the end, it's useless to search for logic in a dream. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has learned to identify all the dream's manifestations. He is wary about negotiations until he receives assurances about the dream's future. The United States remains the only party that can't fathom why "by 2011 we'll withdraw" can't be said here, and why it's impossible to defeat the dream.
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Demography will decide the final outcome. It is only a matter of time. I wish the israelis the best.
"Greater Israel" as an attainable goal must be exorcised from the Israeli soul. The possibility of that dream having any possibility of success must be quashed. Only one person can do that. NO... not Netanyahu, he would simply be replaced after being branded a traitor. Our President Barack Obama can end the myth by stating without reservation that the settlement freeze is permanent. He should also demand an end to all coercive acquisitions and illegal confiscations of Palestinian homes and lands. Let Congress and AIPAC declare war on him and his party. I hate Hezbollah and Hamas, but the injustice has to stop against the average subhuman Palestianian.
Isn't that a truth that applies to all Israeli governments? Israel, being a powerful occupier, would not give up any piece of land for either "the dream of Great Israel" or any other reason. Simply, because they're powerful. It might be something about this illusionary dream, but there are many other dimensions as well. The establishment of a Palestinian state would endanger Israeli control over resources, for instance. They must share water, Gaz, space, and everything. And of course we don't forget the naive argument about Israel's security. Therefore, I agree with the author, but there many other dimensions to be considered. I believe that occupation has become a philosophy, belief, or a strategy in Israel which actually can't help them to withdraw and probably make peace!
Why all this liberal writers say jews living in Judea & Samaria dream of "Greater Israel"? the Bible say from the Nile to the Eupfrates, so the west bank of Jordan river is not "Greater Israel"
Barel has it exactly right. There is no will among even moderate Israelis to vacate the West Bank. There will always be excuses such as "there is no partner for peace," "the Palestinians are not ready," etc., etc. etc. If the Israelis are really ready to vacate the West Bank, why do they keep electing right wingers like Sharon and Netanyahu, who have no intention of doing so. If there is to be a viable, contiguous Palestinian state in the West Bank, Israel must be coerced into agreeing to it by the U.S. government or by sanctions, divestment and boycott.
"Exiles for thousands of years", "returning to the Land", "the home of the Jewish people." Only Jews have such "dreams?" Only Jews have an attachment to "Land?" Lebensraum? Should ALL of humanity "return" to the origin of their ancesters? I guess we should all return to our caves. Salaam/Shalom
In 1967 Pentagon prepared a map showing minimum defensable border to Israel. According to it IDF should control a most of the WB. In today's situation leaving WB would mean that international troops would be kicked out very quickly, a few sueside bombings would be enough. And armies of Syria, Libanon and Hizbullah would be on WB hills supported with more weapons from Iran. Direct open areas for shooting Israel almost anywhwere. For me this does not sound very secure. Also to be remembered that no peace can be made with PA, only temporary cease fire. Peace will be possible only when all Israel is in hands of Arabs. Abbas is now pushing Saudi plan and will not make any compromises of it.
How wonderful it would be to withdraw from the West Bank so we can have 2 Gazas! That's the dream of the Left.
If Israel had fully withdrawn, then maybe you would have a point. But Israel continues to control Gaza now as much as it ever did. There was no withdrawal, merely a re-setting of the prison walls.
The dream of the exiled Jewish people for the last 2,000 years has been to return to the land of their forefathers, to the places where their history and culture was created, grew, and continued until the Romans exiled us. The places we dreamed to return to were Jerusalem, Hebron, Bethlehem, Shechem, where our history was literally engraved into the land. Need I say more to the ignorant, or self-hating Jews in our midst?
Any Jew who disagrees with stealing land, ripping up olive trees, exiling families, imprisoning thousands without charge, murder, apartheid...is self-hating? Wow. What does that make a Jew who loves this stuff? A fundamentalist settler and criminal. If the shoe fits, genius, wear it...
A self hating Jew is someone who denies his/her heritage considers that the Jewish dream of return to Zion is a fantasy, that we have no right to Hebron and that we do have a right to Tel Aviv. Actually Arabs lived in north Tel Aviv too. Those who live in the most cherished and loved parts of our land do so out of love of the Land.
That means your enemies are : arabs, muslims and christians AND jews ?? What an interesting twisted concept....!!
The dream of the exiled Jewish people for the last 2,000 years has been to return to the land of their forefathers, to the places where their history and culture was created, grew, and continued until the Romans exiled us. The places we dreamed to return to were Jerusalem, Hebron, Bethlehem, Shechem, where our history was literally engraved into the land. Need I say more to the ignorant, or self-hating Jews in our midst?
Dreams and vision are wonderful.. They must guide us and we have many dreams.. Like dwelling in this land together, the resident and stranger, the Jew and non Jew- We can dream of Peace and quiet of moral behavior... To fulfill these dreams they must accommodate themselves with the real world and real people inhabiting it. If the dream of the land of israel takes precedence over all it turns into a nightmare!!
"But it's not the well-worn security argument that blocks Israeli withdrawal. That's because Iran poses an existential threat, and terror threats emanate from Lebanon and Gaza. Israel has no withdrawal issue as far as these lands are concerned. When Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu shows concerns about developments on the eastern front, he is referring to Iraq and Iran, not Ramallah, a West Bank town heaving with shopping centers and discotheques. There is no oil in the West Bank, which does not provide us with foreign workers. The West Bank has stopped serving as Israel's economic hinterland, a role it played in the 1970s and '80s. So no economic argument is at play here."
"But it's not the well-worn security argument that blocks Israeli withdrawal. That's because Iran poses an existential threat, and terror threats emanate from Lebanon and Gaza. Israel has no withdrawal issue as far as these lands are concerned. When Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu shows concerns about developments on the eastern front, he is referring to Iraq and Iran, not Ramallah, a West Bank town heaving with shopping centers and discotheques. There is no oil in the West Bank, which does not provide us with foreign workers. The West Bank has stopped serving as Israel's economic hinterland, a role it played in the 1970s and '80s. So no economic argument is at play here."
West Bank can be annexed as an autonomy area. The so-called Palestinians are only entitled autonomy.
And now all extremists from Israel and elsewhere are getting out of the holes !!
Please read slowly what I will tell you and read it well then please do us all a favour and re=write your broo haa about How and what Greater Israel ref is all about! stop spreading rehilut For James Baker and the U.S. State Department, Greater Israel is a shorthand for the Likud Party's desire to retain control of territories captured in the June 1967 war, particularly the West Bank. But in the Arab world and many of the Muslim countries, it means something much grander: Not Israeli retention of the West Bank, but Israeli conquest of a huge area stretching from Egypt to Iran. This startling definition of Greater Israel derives from God's covenant with Abraham, as described in the Bible. "To your descendants I give this land from the River of Egypt to the Great River, the river Euphrates" (Genesis 15:18). Using this text as their proof, Middle Eastern politicians hostile to Israel spread the accusation of Israeli Nile-to-Euphrates expansionism widely and deeply. What is more, they apparently believed it, and many still do. Egypt: Pres. Gamal Abdel Nasser argued tirelessly that Israelis were "working for the day when the Arab people between the Nile and the Euphrates will be a horde of refugees." He held that the Israelis would never give up this aspiration. "Even if they do not expect to realize their talk today or tomorrow about an Israeli state or a Kingdom of Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates, they will persevere in this goal until they find an opportunity [to attain it]." Palestine Liberation Organization: Yassir Arafat tells anyone who will listen about Jerusalem's design for a Greater Israel. In September 1988, he explained to a Playboy interviewer that the two blue lines on the Israeli flag represent the Nile and Eupharates rivers, "and in between is Israel." American diplomats will probably not be able to undo entirely the mischief caused by Secretary Baker's speech. Still, they should act quickly in private and in public, to explain that was meant by the reference to "Greater Israel."
You pay way too much attention to US politicians. I never heard of Greater Israel until I started reading the Israeli press. Only a few Fundie Wackos in the US believe that Nile to Euphrates stuff. I always understood it to mean the Likud desire to have everything Hamas wants, everything west of the Jordan River.
Check history Mark because you didnt "hear" or read< doesnt mean its not there. Before posting in the future, check for truth. as for American policy in the Mid East you forget-= America is very much involved and has a lot to say and at the Time James Baker was a big wig if you dont know go read some more
It is only a matter of time. In the end demography will decide the final outcome. I wish the Isralis the best..
Last night I gave a look to the map.More than 1 : 1000 in favour of the others.Why not share half and half if we are going to be brothers ? Is that a wish too big ?
Yes!!
Yes!!
No!!
Contrary to this writer's claims- there is NOT 3 or 4 million :Palestinians who live on the West Bank. There is 1.2 million- including east Jerusalem. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion however nobody is allowed to misrepresent the facts. .
the laterst stats from the UN and the Palestinian Bureau of statistics says: as of Dec. 31, 2009 there are 2.8 million of us on the West bank, add to that another 1.5 million (who carries the residency cards) who live aborad, hence, the writer is dead right. while, you both need to update your info. which is outdated by som 30 years or so, which was inaccurate, then, just to say the least. we are HUGELY NUMBERED.
there were 1.3m Palestinians in the West Bank, but they have had children in the past 23 years, hate to tell you. They are human enough to have children.
If one listens to both Palestinian and Jewish maximalists, there are many things they differ. But one thing they do have in common is a long-term perspective. The former believe that in decades or centuries, they will be rid of Jews and Israelis. The latter believe that if they hold for long and settle Judea and Samaria relentlessly, they will get rid of Palestinians in the West Bank. So as injust, unfair and twisted their logic, the Middle East is an old region, where perspectives (and grudges) can last centuries. That's their logic indeed. Call it twisted, call it fanatic, call it as you wish, but logic it is.
the question is-can this wish or objective be realistically/viably/reasonably/rationally,be achieved,reached,maintained.if it can,it may be logical.
Remember the "sit at your door and watch the casket of you enemy be caried by" is Arab folklore. To sustain a grudge for a lifetime. That may not conjunct your notion of "realistically/viably/reasonably/rationally" or "achieved,reached,maintained". But it is THEIR logic nonetheless.
When Barel lives in the delusion that the Palestinians will be content with '48 lines he will never see the logic in defensible borders or in the historic and legal right of Jews to live in the land of Israel.
What borders of 1948? Oh yes, the borders of the British Mandate of Palestine, but Israel is already in these borders.
After the war of independence in 1948 the green line was drawn. It is a provisional, not an official border. Neither Israel nor the Palestinians recognize the armistice lines as the official border.
The right wing in Israel consists of different groups and one needs to look into their different motivations. For estimate on the size of each group I will use Knesset representation. 1. Likud - 23% of the Knesset. About half of them know that Greater Israel is just a nice dream but will not be realized. Let us be cautious and estimate the true believers in Greater Israel within Likud at 13% of the population. 2. The Liebermans (Russians) - About 13% of the Knesset. They are not ideologues, just hardline brute Soviets. They will give the Arabs as little as they can get away with. No dream here. 3. The "moderate" religious, including most of the settlers. Their 7 MKs represent some 6% of the population. Their ideology depends on their messianic beliefs. Their is not a reliance on a dream but on religion. 4. The Haredis, with 15 MKs form about 13% of population. They actually are not interested in the West Bank, only Jerusalem. They do not care about Greater Israel. Altogether, Bar'el speaks about 13% of the population as the mindless dreamers. They are not the real problem. The problem is the general sense in Israel that more land can be kept, so why give it up?
All of the American territory is an occupied, territory. The Europians don't have any claim to the land called USA. The average Euroamerican asshole, thinks that he/she has more rights than a Mexican or Native peoples of the continent. I myself an American recognize it to well. The land of Israel is our land, given to as for sole proprietorship by KBH himself.
and one problem is how to handle them in our sole property.since you cite god,if i recall the israelites lived amongst gentiles,even intermingled,when they came to canaan.
One point you did not bring up is that after the Mexican American war we let the Mexicans that lived in the former Mexican territory and now was part of America. stay where they were and become American citizens and keep their land. The Indians did not get off as good but we still did not ethnically cleansed them outside of the United States. They if they have the money can rebuy the land that was taken away. I know thats not a very good point for the Indians but at least they are afforded that chance. Palestinains that were ethnically cleansed by Israel in 1948 and 1967 will never get that chance to buy up their old homes and property.
The so-called Palestinians only surfaced the face of the earth after the six-day war in 1967. And is not mention in UN res. 242, 338.
What a load of nonsense, the residents of British Mandate Palestine, who were mostly arab but also thousands of Jews and Christians, were Palestinians. If they weren't, what were they? By your logic, there were no Pals before 1967, and by the same logic there were no Israelis before 1948 either. That's not to say there weren't Jews living in what is now Israel, or Jews around the world who wanted to live there, but there were certainly no Israelis in British Mandate Palestine because Israel didn't exist.