Comment / How do Turkey and Israel measure each other's love?

It's sadder to realize Israel was using the death of Armenians as a political tool/bargaining chip with Turkey. Turkey supports Israel, the Jewish lobby in America will support Turkey. If not, they will not. Armenians may not realize it, but the U.S. politicians use it as a political tool as well. It's been going for awhile not, but even this passed election, Obama promised to recognize the Armenian Genocide, but once he got your votes and won the election, that promise was broken. Don't worry, next election, another candidate will give you the same promise and break it again. It's too valuable a tool to risk giving up, because it helps ensure votes. Why doesn't the U.S. have one final say on whether they believe it was a genocide or not? Not that it should matter on the grand scheme of things, but why wont they take an official stance? Nothing is changing every 4 years, so why don't they look back at history and make a decision? I feel sorry for Armenians, being used as pawns.

Hey David Israel, I lived in Texas for ten years. Ever been to Sherman Texas? That county was dry up until three years ago. Would you conclude from this that all of America was in the grips of Christian fundamentalism? Don't be obtuse! Just because some counties in Turkey have dry laws doesn't mean the whole country is finished. This is deliberate misrepresentation of facts and you are a dangerous voice in this debate.

i've read all comment and you just fight eachother for who s more secular is that the only your knowledge? the secularism is not issue and ak party will not last long i mean many people still kemalist and modern then israel has i visited both countries generally haifa and istanbul there are conservative place on both side i think modern israil and turkey should have walk together

The thing is that Kemal Attaturk didn't want it to be Muslim FUNDAMENTALIST, that's why he and the Army took control Turkey is becoming exactly the opposite of what Attaturk envisioned

so why are we reading that turkey is leaning towards being muslim run state? it's always been 99% muslim.

In Turkey, local municipalities and councils have people placed in their governing bodies according to which party won that particular neighborhood. So, for instance, Beşiktaş as a municipality ("belidiye") of Istanbul, is under the control of the secularist party CHP. The CHP people then push through their party agendas on the local level from health care issues to things like alcohol consumption (by the way, there are some great bars in Beşiktaş!) Beykoz is AKP territory (and this neighborhood has become very religious over the years) It is not surprising that they have banned alcohol in this place. To correct David's statement of facts: the mayor of Istanbul does not have the right to ban alcohol across the city. He'd face an insurrection! To put this in some context - there are many "dry counties" in the United States (irrespective of state). That don't make it right, though.

Turkey, in essence, is a powerless country, both militarily and economically. As Bar'el puts it rightly, it is both poor and backward. Turkey is powerless simply because it is muslim and therefore has no hope of having a true technological know-how through science. Once you have no science, you have no technology of your own and this means your army must parade only foreign imported weapons which you can only use if the provider of these weapons let you. A muslim country cannot truly develop a technology because of lack of science. Turkish students beat israeli students in highschool math olympiads but the brainpower stops there, does not propagate into universities because of lack of scientific tradition and lack of scientific curiosity. If Turkey does educate its people on sciences, then yes, then it can become a real danger, a real pain in the arse but this is very improbable.

Your talkback was refreshingly smart and different. I like that. Hope to hear more from you.

About Israel's lack of acknowledging it at the time before(too long ago,because I am rather young) Better late than never.BUT!I see your point clearly.You and I know it is damn politics expediency.Hope Peres sheds a tear or two? If he does,wonders will never cease. God bless you and Yours Armen

1. The extreemist religious Jews are as m uch threat to Isarel and its democracy as AKP is to Turkey. However at this moment there isno doctatorship of these ultra religious in Israel. They have some influence but not in control. My personal hope is that they wil never have. In Turkey there is AKP diktatorship that is unjustly fining teh Dogan Media Group to silence all opposition to their extreemist agenda. 2. AKP has banned the use of YouTube but not because there are videos insulting Ataturk since they do it too especially Bulent Arinc. They banned it becauser there are viodeos of Erdogan worshipping Fethullah Gulen, reciting his famous poem of minarets will become spears and teh domes shields in the fight to bring Sheria, him talking about how he will use democracy as a vehicle to bring in Sheria. 3. I am not against Turkey at all, I am a strong and active supporter of modern Turkey. I am only against the policies of AKP and my fight is side by side with Kemalists.

In the USA there are several small dry counties. In fact the Tenessee town where famous Jack Danioels is made is actually a dry county. However this is not a state policy in the USA. If the residents of that county votes against it then it will be changed. In tTurkey it is th eruling party's national policy and it is being slowle implemented not by peopples wish but by the rule of the mayors. It is prohibition as I personally saw it, as many prominenent well respected columnists like Oktay Eksi, Mehmet Yilmaz, Bekir Coskun, Tufan Turenc, Ertugrul Ozkok constantly write about it. Thiose American's or westerns who have never lived for a while in Turkey this may may be hard to understand, those who falsly believe that Islamist politicalmovements should dominate the Muslim countries might even like and support, but thise Turks that make at least 53% of the voters who did not vote for AKP understand my point and are 100% behind me.

'The issue with alchoholic beverage ban is not a fairy tale since I was recently in Turkey and in and around Ankara restaurants did not serve alchohol.' That hardly demonstrates incipient prohibition. There are regions in the United States where it is hard to find restaurants that serve alcohol -- and while I definitely think beer and wine are part of a balanced diet, if others choose to decline to deal in them, that is their prerogative.

I was watching a documentary on CNN, where the crew ventured into a neighborhood in Israel, a bastion of conservative Jews, with their rather medieval looking garbs, and they stoned the TV crew and chased them away kicks and curses and all. I assure you, no such thing will happen in Fatih. Yes, it is a conservative enclave and you may draw irate looks if your female company is showing too much skin. If you found happiness in the Jewish State of Israel ruled by a right-wing collection of nuts, then there is no reason for you to berate religious conservative ruled government of the secular Republic of Turkey, right? Not that I voted for it... By the way, I was there in Ramazan, and had a nice raki dinner at Bogaz. Go figure...

I was born, raised and lived in Turkey 30 tears until 1980. I was against this IOslamist - not conservativ. Demirel was conservative, AKP is one who is using democracy as a vehicle to lead into Sheria at which time he said he will get off the democracy bus - I have been against AKP when it had good relations with Israel and I am still opposing the, I support progresive modern Turkish politicians following Ataturk s reforms such as the late Ismail Cem, Kemal Dervis etc. The issue with alchoholic beverage ban is not a fairy tale since I was recently in Turkey and in and around Ankara restaurants did not serve alchohol. And about Fatih district, please do go and walk there in your mini skirt and open head. I will definitely know it when I read the unfortunate consequences in Hurriyet.

David, half of the year I live in Turkey. It's a fairy tale that alcholic beverages are prohibited, or you can't have a walk in Fatih with your western clothes. It's such a big exaggeration. They just have a conservative democratic government which is much more secular than Israel's one. By the way, the problem is not what the path of Turkey is. If Turkey backs Israel, everything would be ok for you.

But if what you say is really true then why should anyone concern themselves over an occasional busload of Jews? Or a rocket that lands in Sderot from out of the blue to take out a few? A patron in a Jerusalem cafe who suddenly goes boom? Muslim and Jew? Is there some profound difference between the two? Or is it just your own warped view that you effuse so bitter and skewed, born of the hate it clearly proves, and which in the end is sure to consume? Nay dear Heather, you self-righteous prude, there is no we, or us, or they, or them, as you allude. It's you Heather. Just you and your hate, primal and crude.

Have you recently visited Turkey? Have you gone to a restauant in Beykoz and ordered a botthe of Yeni Raki with your fish? If you ad you would be told that since it is against islam the mayor has banned all alchoholic beverages. Same in many parts of Turkey Today. If you get a chance to visit Istaenbul I recommend that you go fo r a walk at th eFatih neighborhood dressed in normal westen clothes but let me warn you that you may never be able to get out of there on your two feet.

Turkey's opposition to Israel is not Islamic rooted. It is about human rights. Why would a Turkish state have a military exercise that has been under UN war crime investigation? I have no religion, while I was born as Muslim, but opposition to Israel is not religion. Stop creating this illusion that any opposition to Israel has a Islamic root. Personally, I support Israeli State existence, but not under its criminal act against Palestine. Israel must come under the terms with Palestine.

Although I do not agree with everything in this article, IMO Zvi Bar'el seems to have commonsense. I hope the current situation between Turkey and Israel won't escalate any further.

It's for sure that Turkey is more secular than israel. How can Israel people accuse some other becoming non-secular? It's reaaly weird. And Turkey is on the way of becoming more democratic. Being Israel's slave is not being secular.

Every time in news, they report about Muslim Terrorist and underlined that all muslims would be support Terrorism. Turkish Population has 98% of muslim, but it is a secular Republic. Turkish people fed up with Israelian and western Media. The currently turkish goverment was voted by 46% of Turkish people, not 100%! If you want critize their activities, you should this, but Israilians are doing generally muslim bashing! Turkey sells Coffee and Israel weapon systems! I think Israil would be more lose of these boycott activities. Most Turks were angry with Ariel Sharon, who was start supporting the Enemies of Turkey before the Turks break Deals with Israel. Kurdish Terrorist (PKK) against Saddam Hussein, but the same Terrorists attack Turkey for long time. First, Israel do wrong to trained the Turkish Enemies in the north of Iraq! Turks must coorperate with Iran & Syria to defend their border in the south east. All time during the gulf war the Turkish Economy lose, but US & Israelian wins

I don't know why Turkey and Isreal's relations are bad and how long will those continue? Why don't any minister think to give an end to those things. I call each Turkish and Israeli peoples: Please don't make enmity to yourselves. Please, don't. F

The AKP has decided to join the Iranian-Syrian-terrorist Axis of evil against Israel for one reason and one reason only: Turkey is like Iran and Syria an imperialist occupier of Kurdish land. That is why Turkey under the AKP decided to support Saddam Hussein against the American invasion which was believed to threaten Turkey's imperialist interests by bringing democracy to Iraq and autonomy to the Iraqi-Kurdish region bordering Turkish-occupied Kurdistan. The Kurds are no longer helpless victims of Arab, Turkish and Iranian oppression but, for the first time, have their own democratically elected institutions in just one part of Kurdistan: the Iraqi part. All Kurds deserve the same freedom as Iraqi Kurds, like Israelis, Americans and other peoples, enjoy. It is time for Israel and all other democratic states to support the unity and independence of the Kurdish nation. Free Kurdistan with access to the sea!

this is the fact

great article... the two should really work together to reach peace in the region (as they did in the past), they are the leaders and need / trust each other

Israel was able to entertain good relations with Turkey as it consider itself A SECULAR State, but now as a progressively becoming under AKP a Muslim State, the old interests, Israel-Turkish ones, are no longer viable. Thats why the whole premise of the Article is not appropriate.

Everyone shoulg get used to idea that Turkey is now a big power, its people is now aware of the power and dynamik their country has. In most cases others need Turkey than Turkey needs them including Israel. And no need to be worry about it. A powerful Turkey only brings peace. Turkey has no intention to grab others rights and benefits.

and doesn't feel embarassed by it. Perhaps Israel should have mediated between Syria and Turkey and froze relation because "felt embarassed by Turkey "? btw,in 1949 when Turkey recognized Israel ,she was still under the influence of Attürk and didn't consider herself an "Islamic country" as purported by you.

Dear, Turkey loves Israel as much as Israel loves Turkey and probably Turkey hates Israel twice as much as Israel hates Turkey I would say.

Israel would have to choose either good relations with Turkey OR criminality toward the Palestinians. It can't choose both.

Nice work Bibi. Its not like we don't have loads of other important states in the Middle East to lean on. So what if they have been our friend longer than anyone else in the neighborhood. Bibi---I would much rather be able to say nobody likes me, That Chaim Weitzman was a schmendrik for being a diplomat. All he did was get a great power to give us the opening to get a state. If he had known how to be tough like me they would have thrown in Transjordan and maybe the Isle of Man. Chaim Weitzman, you are going to turn over in your grave with jealousy when you see my next act, pushing Obama around. It is really not imporant if he likes me. I will just smile and say we are getting along. He has his view; I have mine. And he will just give me the things I need. And nebich all those congresspeople who told me to cool it. They are just a lot of Weizmans. I would stay around longer to talk but I am going to be too busy expan// I mean doing natural growth stuff. L'hitraot.

Having friendly ties with Turkey would not allow ISRAEL to prevent this country from becoming as dangerous as IRAN seems to be, as such risk is certainly not theoretical. All economic, strategic and politic benefits steming out of a good relationship with Turkey would be worthless if the islamic risk becomes real.

How sad to read Of Israel's role in helping Turkey deny the Armenian Genocide yet refreshing in a way to see Israel come to its senses and tell Turkey to face up to its past.For too long President Peres denied the Armenian Genocide and now I am sure he has some regrets because all along he knew it was a Genocide but out of self interest sacrificed the truth.Now you know who your true friends are may be?

Too bad it makes you sound like a defeatist. Come on, are you actually falling for the guilt trip Muslims are trying to lay on us? Turkey can go ahead and break all ties with Israel, it won't hurt Israel a bit. Do you also think the West really cares what Muslims think of them, as if they're hoping we're all gonna convert to Islam some day just to appease them? Sorry, but we don't get all choked up every time a few Muslims die whenever Islamic extremists decide to provoke Israel and then hide behind innocent civilians. If we did, they'd provoke Israel even more.

Erdogan called Ataturk a fashist for things like Smyrna (Izmir) to defend a deal with an Israeli company at the Syrian border.