Challenge of the Hebron hooligans

the hooligans are the government ministers who are Arabists and should represent the jewish citizens, who own their property, and not the Arabs who want to eliminate them as Hitler did.

Why do we not remove the protection afforded the illegal Jewish settlers by the IDF and the police?

Well said!

Very well, then; the motivation for my criticism of Israeli policies toward gentiles is my distaste for Israel's systematic oppression of said gentiles. I have made it (I thought) quite clear that my solution is for Israel to make everyone equal before the law. I seriously question that you would have similar problems with a Jew criticizing oppression of Jews by gentiles. What you would not have done to you, do not do to others. By the way, I don't really consider myself scholarly. However, I have learned to appreciate intellectual honesty. You should try it some day.

I wrote you know well history(but the word of know did not show up)any way what did i mean .The jews used to lived in hebron befor the arabs invaded that land.There were not in history arabs palestinian state except from 1917 until 1947 british mandate was ruling in jewish state and that time they were calling it palestain.The pound and a postage and passports also was printed by british but those thing don't prove that the land belonged to them.And it does not mean they owened that land

You complain about ad hominen. Try playing the ball not the man yourself Re Coward. You have gone to ground on my post #116 whilst being quick to hurl a generic insult to #115 A scholarly gentleman such as your good self surely knows about the heat in the kitchen.

"Native" comes from the Latin NATIVUS, from NATUS, "born." One has to be born in a place to be a native thereof. Golda was a native of Kiev, Ben Gurion was a native of South Africa, Begin was a native of Poland. The Arabs who were living in Hebron in 1929 as well as the Jews who were living there in 1929 were natives of Hebron, since they were born there. Today, the Jewish people who are squatting in Hebron come from Brooklyn, New York and other places. They were not born in Hebron. You cannot misuse that term and then have the temerity to tell me that I do not know history. Believe me, I still have the photographs from a relative labelled "Palestine, 1950." We have letters from Palestine from the 1930s and 1940s with Palestinian postage, we have bills of Palestinian pounds, we have relatives with birth certificates and passports that say "Palestine." Palestine was never exclusively Jewish, nor is Israel today, since some of the natives remained and now number 20%.

Da, gospodin Vladimir, eta pravda! And why are those Arabs so hostile? Maybe they resent being occupied since 1948. You know, they never wanted the partition, it was forced upon them, they did not want the demographics of Palestine changed to become Eretz Israel. Where would those native Arabs go? Jabotinsky knew well in his "O Zheleznoye stene" (1923) that they would never give up their native land to colonists (please read his famous treatise, written in Russian in 1923). And they are still angry and fighting, and they will get their land back just as the Ukrainians did, even after the famous "holodomor" of 1932-34, when over 6,000,000 Ukrainian Christians perished of an artificial famine. And you should know the accursed names of those who organized that "white genocide."

Oh, Katz, I agree 100% that they are indeed monsters who will not allow people to live where they wish. That includes all those who refuse to let the Palestinian refugees of 1948 and 1967 return to their homes in what is now Israel. And those poor beings have property deeds and keys. A pox on those stone-hearted monsters who mock the word of the Lord: "Withdraw thy foot from thy neighbor's house, lest he be weary of thee, and so hate thee." Proverbs, 25:17

Yonaton, are you advocating evacuation and no compensation to Palestinians too or just to your Jewish bretheren? You really just don't get it. How naive are you to think that if we just pack our bags and leave that everything will be fine and dandy.

I just posted expressing doubt about the account recorded above. The reason for this is that I have personaly gone to Hebron and met extremely nice people. Our left of center tour guide seemed a smidge sceptical about our wanting to go but after, commented about how hospitable these people were. I also went and talked to many youths at the protest tent outside the Knesset and met fantastic people. Well mannered pleasant.... Nothing like the media made them out to be. I have also found that for every single story that I have read discrediting the settlers there is another side to the story, like every story.

i know several people who live in hebron and other settlements and they are far from being sicarii. i think those who are perpetrating the violence in hebron are dangerous need to be dealt with, but they do not represent all of the hebron community or the settlers as a whole. whether they compose a majority or not, i don't know, but i doubt. they all appear to be extremely young and some of them are not members of the hebron community at all.

The message of the fall was clear, throw bombs and you get your way. I personally doubt the accuracy of this account anyway though. Haaretz is notoriously anti settler. Like the olive trees, there was mounds of evidence to show the settlers were innocent, but Haaretz missed that part out. Violence is wrong, but lets at least get a fair story.

I don't typically respond to posts from a previous day but yours of yesterday was so ridiculous that I couldn't resist. You said: "It does suprise me, though, that you consider Zionism to have originated as a national liberation movement, when early zionists did not" Of course they did? What are you talking about. Different streams of Zionism suggested different mechanisms, or ways ,of achieving national liberation, but of course that was the aim. You really need to do some more reading.

Again, as the coward you are, you sit back and yell names instead of having the integrity of addressing what I say.

Tel-Aviv won't do anything against these hooligans because the government of Israel supports Jewish terrorism so they can steal more Palestinians land. It's a government line.

It's not the settlers who are lawless, but the government. The settlers are trying to uphold core Jewish values, while the government, in its rejection of core Jewish values, bases its actions on false values that are comparable to idolatry. It treats Israel's real enemies, the Arabs, with kid gloves, while coming down harshly on those Jews who stand for God, the Torah, and the Covenant. Destroying Jewish communities in the Land of Israel, and forcibly expelling the inhabitants thereof, is a crime, and one that is exceedingly difficult to atone for.

Jews standing up for themselves. Go for it.

What is the connection between Golda and the hooligans? Well, Golda permitted rav Loewinger and his group of zealots to settle in Hebron. This was just before Passover of 1968. By this move it was she who opened the flood gates to the belief (i.e. "the messianic delusion") of a Greater Israel which put more and more illegal settlements on the map of the West Bank and Gaza. Aren't we suppose to be "or l'Goim" ( light to the Gentiles)? Have those settlers had a Jewish mother? How can a Jew burn down a home or uproot olive trees? In my eyes these Jewish hooligans are not different than the Jihadniks. Shame on all Israeli Governments Labor included who have tolerated such activities for so long inconsistent with the soul and nature of the Jewish people. This is what happens when fanatic type activities of the few are tolerated. What is the difference between the impotence of the Israeli governments in controling its thugs and the impotence of the PA in contoling terrorist activites? None!!

I couldn;t agree more that "It`s obvious that we shouldeliminate these terrorists, their handlers, and their bases" Lets start by eliminating the terrorists of the IDF and Israeli goevrnment.

Maybe the reason people consider the settler-colonists of Hevron to be terrorists, but not the Jews of CT or the Palestinians of E Jerusalem is that the Jews of CT, and the Palestinians of E Jerusalem haven't decided to violently occupy the central marketplaces of their respective cities. Just a wild guess....

The article seems to very much overstate things. Shouldn't there be more concern about Hamas?

Yes you have and you are evidence for my case.Have you nothing intelligent or worthwhile to say? You are intellectualy bankrupt.

What was the pont of the post? Do you disagree with the results of the scientific research I mentioned?Or do you like riduclising Africans and so by association ridiculise me?Your post was totaly incoherent, the rantings of a frustrated person.Empty and shallow as usual.

Hi BG It is me again and sorry, but I find it nit picking. You said maybe and I said perhaps what's the difference please tell me.At the end of the day they may/perhaps went to live with their relatives.Same thing.I don't want to be a bore,but it's the principle of the thing you know.Hate to be persistent--like your Orquest or Gabe1.And no chance thank you very much. End of story dear BG

"As a New Yorker, what makes you think we want them here? How about Patagonia?" My point exactly!

Yes BG My mistake sorry.

Rafi Calm down before you burst a blood vessel! It is not as they say.Eveything is always exaggerated you know.Why do you have to believe it? First go and visit the place then you can prove it one way or another.Now it is all speculation that makes those poor brethern of yours look so bad. Didn't we also hear about the uprooting the olive trees which they soon stopped talking about it because it was not proven a 100%. There,there now dear fellow take it easy and be a good chap...

Tell us about the pure intentions(as you see them) of your sniping attacks. What was that sanctimonious complaint about "ad hominem" again.? Suggest you reread your own post.

Hi Nat He is back and it is always the same hog wash. The minute I sow his name I said,here we go again! You are right,he needes a long Zzzzzzz!

Hey BG I just re-read what you exactly said.Go and read it again.You said:I don't know,they may have moved in with relatives.Go and read your post.Thank You BG. p/s Ha'aretz please let BG read this.

"either way, no one is being fooled. Who are you trying not to offend? the Almighty? Do you think a simple dash can trick the Almighty?" - Harold Kumar Identify the vowels in YHWH. . . .

As a New Yorker, what makes you think we want them here? How about Patagonia?

Oddly enough, last night I watched a DVD of Lawrence of Arabia. The messages I got from that movie was that Arabs are about the same as everyone else - just with a different set of customs. My personal view is that when you add up all the positive things about any culture, and subtract all the negatives, they all wind up in about the same place. Unlike you, I do not see the world in terms of herrenvolk and untermenschen. One of the advantages of growing up in New York City has been that I have had experience with very,very many ethnic groups and found they all had material strengths and weaknesses transmitted to them by their cultures. One of the drawbacks has been having to learn that just about every one of them is convinced that because someone else somewhere else at another time did bad things to members of their group they are entitled to privileged treatment and the rules that apply to everyone else do not apply to them.

Who are you to call others "hooligans"? Is that a term of journalistic art, or is it editorial comment?? Khalid and gang think you guys are hooligans in your fancy homes inside the green-line. Don't you fools realize that calling any Jew a hooligan for living in Ha'aretz makes us all hooligans? Your "paper" is a worthless rag, an endless diatribe against Zionist and Religious Israelis. Your existence here is void of any meaning.

Why are Jews living in Hebron automatically terrorists, when Arabs living in Jerusalem not considered terrorists? Why is exercizing our right of return universally reviled, while Palestinians seeking their right of return universally enshrined? Why are Jews living in Hebron a provocation, but Jews living in Greenwich Connecticut not? a provocation

You really want those meshugenes living next door to us?

the story according to potobac: "well you see the arabs in gaza are so nice.they would share their last meal with you.not like the jews of course.and they always laugh.and they are sort of noble.specially on camels." there potobac.i have said it all for you.go back to sleep.

I THINK ITS TIME FOR JEWS TO REALIZE THAT IT SHOULD BE ALL FOR "ONE AND ONE FOR ALL", JEWS HAVE TO STICK TOGETHER, THE WHOLE WORLD HATES THE JEWS, CALLING PROTESTORS HOOLIGANGS ADDS TO THE ANTISEMITISM THAT IS IN THE WORLD AND RECENTLY HAVE BEEN EXPLODING. STOP HATE AGAINST THE JEWS EVEN IF ARE A JEW FLASHY HEADLINES SHOULD NOT BE A PRIORITY !

By the way "Sons of Solomon" Arab rewrting history AGAIN? Intifada? there is nothing about you that Israel needs to copy.

These people are nothing but thugs and anarchists and must be dealt with harshly and immediately. I would suggest that if convicted of 3 or more felonies (instances of violence) they, as in California, get 25 to life, with no parole. That said, they are undermining Israel's security at a time when Iran is about to continue it's quest to have Israel declared a non-state (by the world and the UN), the Holocaust a massive fraud designed to achieve support for Israel's creation, and Diaspora Jewry non-believers and subject to death (sons of monkeys and daughers of ....). Iran WILL launch nuclear tipped missiles at all of Israel, from both land and sea, as soon as it is feasible. They believe (wrongly), that it can survive any counter attack without too much damage (wrong). Therefore, the Hebron protests must stop immediately. Blood will be on the protestor hands, if Israel is attacked (by Iran, or Hezbolllah, or by enhanced Kassams). This anarchy will not be tolerated.

Sahid says: "Qassams are just homemade tubes and cause very little damage," I hope that's true. It's obvious that we should eliminate these terrorists, their handlers, and their bases (often mosques, civilian houses, ambulances) while they are still dumb, stupid, inexperienced, poorly armed, and thinking only of the 72 whores, they think they will get, and send them to hell, BEFORE, they acquire the experience, to do more damage. Thank Hashem, that the palestinians are still dumb, stupid, and uneducated, and even so they are doing so much damage. It's important, that this garbage be collected, BEFORE, they gain more experience!

Perhaps he sounds like them because his motivation (hatred) is about the same as theirs. His MO is to attack any statement which "gives aid and comfort to the enemy" (as he sees them).

The same people calling them huligans are the same who justified the infidada and the methods of throwing rocks. All doing nothing and sitting passive did during the disengagement did was to allow rockets to be fired into Israel and no secure defense line, and make Israel the laughing stock of the world. Real secure borders are needed not the 67 borders. It can be done without the Arab population centers if Israel just stuck in her heals on request by the US to give up all territory.

Why G-d ? answer: out of respect for Him ! Why 'Allah hu akhbar' and not just 'Allah'? isn't that out of respect too??

Is our govt. and army crazy? 500 Jewish terrorists in Hebron, a town of 160,000 Arabs and more than triple that number of IDF and police protecting Jewish terrorists? Tear down their homes, give them a good beating to knock some sense into them and toss them into prison and throw away the key. Either our army and police uphold the law or aid these settler terrorists. If police and IDF aid Jewish terrorists, why do we need a police force and IDF?

"Thomas Jefferson also said a rebellon now or then is a good thing." - Joe Levy Thomas Jefferson was a glib man, and given to sweeping statements. He was all for liberty, except for his slaves.

Dear Yoanatan please come and join us here in Dearborn MI, USA , After you are evacuated from occupied palestine , WITHOUT COMPENSATION. I'm sure you will feel at home here among your Moslem friends, who I am sure will appreciate your magnanamous gesture as they have appreciated all your past "mechvot" ie. evacuating southern Lebanon and Gaza, giving them 40,000 rifles, traing their security forces, turning over Nablus, Jericho, Kalkilya etc. CPR to The "hero" Arafat and his moribubd PLO in tunis.etc, etc etc.Or if you are a Jew from the Edut Hamizrach you'll be welcomed back to Yemen, Afganistan, Iraq, Egypt , Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Tunisia Iran........

either way, no one is being fooled. Who are you trying not to offend? the Almighty? Do you think a simple dash can trick the Almighty?

"What? All those thousands moved in with some relatives? Unbelievable!" - S (post #89) "Maybe they moved in with relatives." - BG (post #81) S, I suggested the 25,000 Arab refugees from Hebron may have moved in with relatives. I didn't say "some" relatives (your language), I didn't say "my" relatives either. My relatives are not that numerous. S, you are beginning to sound like a "H-denier". The truth is staring you in the face but you refuse to see.

did you miss the part about the kids using slingshots on the heroic IDF hiding in their APCs? Try to pay more attention. Qassams are just homemade tubes and cause very little damage, yet according to zionists they are equivalent to Soviet Union ICBMs and can travel over 3000km with nuclear tips.

When will the good citizens of Israel restrain the hooligans in the government - you know the ones, the ones that want to destroy Israel. The ones who would rather be in power, then solve the 50+ year old war. What other country would have a 50 yr war of attrition where its citizens get killed off slowly and get bombed my maniacle arabs on the way to buy food? What country would have leaders who activly campaign to make the country smaller and weaker? What government would let an outside country dictate its soviergn policy? What government would put up with other countries embasies not being in its own capitol? Haaretz apparently has little time for rational, sane questions, but plenty of time to denegrate Jews who want to live in thier homes with being attacked by arabs ....

I hope this is the undoing of Olmert and his gang. This is nothing other than state sponsored religious persecution, as was the Gaza debacle and the whole war against the settlers--of which this rag Ha'aretz is a leader. A couple of quotes from a much better news source: "Though the Supreme Court has ruled that the property is in fact owned by Jews, the court ordered the government to evict the Jewish residents because they entered the property without government authorization." "Meir Indor, Yesha (Judea and Samaria) activist and head of Almagor, an organization that assists victims of Arab terror, said that he was shocked by the police?s willingness to use all means to expel Jews from their homes. "Indor said the police?s willingness to evict Jews stands in sharp contrast to the recent statement by IDF Chief-of-Staff, Dan Halutz, that Israel cannot use all the means at its disposal to prevent the firing of Kassam rockets on Jewish communities bordering the Gaza district."

...and masks they do also wear. 1929 wasn't right but one injustice shouldn't be settled by another injustice and in particular not by some violent mesianics that know nothing more about the Torah than the "right to the land". There is no 'right to the land' for those that disregard the law nor show any respect to other people's rights. Send them back to Brooklyn - with the masks!

Hi BG Only a few words and if it comes out fine. You say you don't know where all those thousands went.Then you assume perhaps they moved in with some relatives.What? All those thousands moved in with some relatives? Unbelievable!

shahid Sling shots? are you dreaming or are perhaps asleep.What do you call the kassam rockets,the murders committed by the terorists. Your post is so ridiculous I am wasting my time really with you.But,I had to remind you how naive and disingenuous you are being by comparing kassams with sling shots. Wakey,wakey!!

Let's see how brave these orthodox Jews will be once the IDF leaves the city. If G'd is on their site, then He will protect them. They are only a bunch of trouble makers who came from New York. Just look at them, they look as if they came from the Middle Ages, they don't belong in these Modern Ages !

Since Shahid has made it clear that he prefers Tel Aviv (I would guess ramat aviv 3) instead of Hevron, and Yonatan is thinking of "land for peace plans", how about the following "peace plan" Offer the Arabs of Hebron, Ramat Aviv 3, Haifa, Hertzelia, Kfar Saba, and the other "jewish settlements" that they crave, and believe belonged to their great-grandparents, and order the "settlers" of these neighborhoods, to evacuate these "settlements", and "evacuate them" to the "refugee camps" in Hebron, the west bank, and Gaza, of course only if the Arab "peace partners" agree. It sounds like Sahid, and many other "Palestineans" would desire this plan, so it's up to "peace loving Jews" like Yonatan, and the "settlers" of Hertzelia, Ramat Aviv 3, etc. to agree. After all, the arab great-grandparents of Sahid, willingly left their mud huvels, in 1948, assured that the would return to claim the empty rich Jewish homes! How's about it? Shahid? Yonatan? others?

our 2 cultures are famous for the art of the deal, so lets impress the world with trading these 2 cities. Sound good?

"The settlers of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are subject to Israeli law." - Johanes Thomas Jefferson-Hemmings didn't seem to think that they should be subject to any law. Move into an occupied territory and you have to accept the occupying army's directions.

If you are an Arab, throwing rocks, you are a "freedom fighter". If you are a Jew, throwing rocks, you are a "hooligan, a terrorist and a thug". If you are an European, throwing rocks (and logs), you are a demonstrator. I suggest we all stop throwing and start talking.

Thomas Jefferson also said a rebellon now or then is a good thing. You don`t want to hear what Abraham Lincoln said about the subject.

"You say these mere 500 fundementalist Jews have displaced thousands of the Arabs from Hebron? Please tell me where did those so many thousand then go? Simple question." - S S, it is easier to see that 25,000 Arabs were displaced in Hebron than to know where they went. Hebron was divided (by Netanyahu's agreement) into two areas, H1 and H2. H2 is under Israeli control (to protect the few settlers). There used to be 35000 Arabs in H2 and now there are about 10,000. I don't believe anybody is contesting the count. It is too easy to verify. You probably heard about pogroms, harrasment by settlers, and more recently torching houses. All of course is done by the few armed settlers, being protected by the IDF. Where did the Arabs go? I did not see a study of this, perhaps one exists. Maybe they moved in with relatives. I don't know.

Jews do the same and the IDF doesn't use live ammo, why is that? Why does the IDF kill children? Why does the IDF hide in their tanks while the brave Pals use ancient slingshots? Who is the brave one? also, Jerusalem is a holy place for Muslims and so is much of Palestine as our Muslim prophets walked there and lived there, Musa, Isa (mistakenly called Jesus Christ by some).

Who are the real the native population.you should learn more history

We came to Jerusalem starting in Siani 3500 odd years ago. Now in modern times, we left Siani (1978) and then Lebanon, and then Gaza and now Hebron? What will the enemy think? I'll tell you what the enemy will think. "Let's keep up the same pressure and eventually we'll have Jerusalem". Let's cut our brothers and sisters in Hebron some slack so they will use the strength they possess that most of us don't even have, to carry on their mission to live in this land, ALL OF THE LAND!

Jews lived in Hebron for thousands of years until the Arabs murdered and expelled the entire Jewish community in 1929. By the way, the only reason why Tel Aviv was established was because the racist Arabs of Yafo wouldn't allow Jews to live there. In any case, you started wars and lost wars. And we won't put up with your racism any more.

The dicision has been made by liable party with the leader ship of eagal alon in 1968 secret meeting in hebron.They are humans government can no't use them any time for her polacy interest.could you say in 1948 the palestinians wont leave thier homes in all around kafar-sava or haifa or yahud.In reality they used to live there too but it was no't them land like w.b and gaza.I do no't like the world of transfer too but in future we should solve the problem in some way.The jews have right for all part of jweish state

They are a detriment to The State Of Israel. They don't act so tough without their guns and the I.D.F. to protect them.

The Kachniks may be few in number but they are a giant threat to Israel and innocent Arabs. The hate and racism practiced by these crazies are a tremendous chilul-Hashem and they are an embarassment to Jews worldwide. Their racism makes them as bad as Hamas, the Nazis and the KKK! Evacuate and arrest these sicko's now before it's too late.

the hooligans are the gov't and the soilders in the idf who follow illegal orders to harass Jews whose only "crime" is to live in Hevron. If we don't have the right as Jews to live in Hevron with all its Jewish history, we don't have the right as Jews to any part of the land of Israel. The Hevron settlers are heroes of the Jewish people.

if Jews can move to Hebron why not the reverse?

Hello BG You say these mere 500 fundementalist Jews have displaced thousands of the Arabs from Hebron? Please tell me where did those so many thousand then go? Simple question.

shahid As the above title.Our people are not indulging in an intifada--whatever that word may mean.They are just objecting about their rights as Jews who belong to the LAND OF ISRAEL AND HEBRON IS A HOLY PLACE FOR JEWS FIRST AND FOREMOST!And we have the IDF there keeping things in order.Your comment is ridiculous,you don't see people being butchered,there are no murders,no one is doing what your people do! Be honest and retract your silly word "Flattery".

Sam I couldn't agree with you more! It is a disgrace and instead of being helpful they make the situation much worse with their interference.The sooner they cut off their funds the better for all around.

Yeshai Yesterday I wrote the whole story in one of the forums concerning Hebron from beginning to the end.No one made a comment one way or another.That's how unimportant they seem to think the subject is.

Choni Well said and I totally agree with your premise.Those in Hebron who are causing the main problems should be dealt with summerily.As for your proposition about the "Srangers" that idea is very appealing to me too. But,who is going to impose it and how can we that's the problem.It is always the politically correct approach and nothing gets done. We'll hope for the best.

Hello Nat Glad you mentioned D.J Trickery,he should be one of the first to be arrested and indicted. And the few hooligans should be punished too.

i don't care what your veiws are on the the rights of jews in hebron. that is not the issue. the issue is the goverment of israel going to allow thugs to take the law into their own hands. these thugs have full access to the israeli juducial system and are being protected by israeli soldiers. so what ever your views on the rights of jews in hebron these are plain thugs. anyone who excuses their behavoir is condoning thuggery and must be thugs themselves.

see with your own eyes, sons of Solomon, what has become of your people

its not PEACE NOW - that would imply they want peace - its PIECE NOW - they want a piece of Israel given away here and a piece given away there. :) its just another arab front group.

Thomas Jefferson also said a rebellon now or then is a good thing. You don't want to hear what Abraham Lincoln said about the subject.

Incredible, how little you understand the religious groups in Israel! What to you are the extemist arab haters, who fight the IDF over the "settlements" and evacuation orders, are almost ALL IDF soldiers, and reservists! almost none are what you call: "No more free ride, no more exemptions from the draft to study the Talmud, no more parasitic Yeshivah Buchers who don`t work, no more welfare for unprovidents breeders of large families at the expense of those in Israel who put in an honnest day`s work." The one's YOU are attacking, are like your great-granparents, (almost no-one, who calls hismself a Jew today, isn't a descedent of "one of them" (except converts). the "hebron jews" you attack,(right or wrong) almost all served in the IDF, and disproportionatley volunteered for elite combat units!

Your article conveniently forgot to mention that this marketplace is owned by the Sephardic Jewish community. It also conveniently fails to mention that were it not for these "settlers" there would be no Jewish presence in Hevron, the second holiest Jewish site. Impressive objective advertising - not Hevron MeAz Oole Tamid!!!!

Masked and hooded they look like Hamas and are now trying to act like them

You are also raising an UNRELATED argument: "And, as I wrote in #9 above, the Jewish settlers in Hebron and their supporters are like the Zealots and Sicarii at the end of the Second Temple, threatening to destroy Israel as a democratic state where the rule of law prevails." the sicaricii, were not trying to destroy a "democratic state" (certainly not as defined by Barak and the HCJ) but the Torah authority of Scholars, led by Rav Yochanan ben Zacai, who were interested in preserving "religious institutions and leaders" whether or not their would be a "state" or a "galus"!. "Judaism survived for 2thousand years without a state, but couldn't survive 2 seconds without the Torah" (as Rav Yosef Dov Soloveichik z'tl told Ben Gurion). "The [Second] Temple was destroyed because of unfounded hatred" correct! - meaning civil strife and violence among Jews, your interpretation, perhaps right perhaps wrong, but not the kamtzta u'bar kamtza example!

Your first argument was that you don't expect to move, and they don't either. 1) They know you don't expect to move, that's why they want to force you against your will! They want to bomb your schoolbusses, and push you into the sea! 2) they certainly want to move, from their unwanted west bank and gaza areas, where they, their parents and grandparents were born, but what to them are just "temporary refugee areas" where they DON'T want to live, into what they call the "zionist hooligan territory's" like Haifa, Jaffa, Kfar Saba, Degainia, etc, which they own, and still keep the keys their great-grandparents gave them to homes that haven't exitsted for over 55 years! con't..

OK we KNOW Haaretz is antiisrael ans antijewish - but as this article goes beyond thier normal "pal cheering squad" routine. The property was JEWISH owned until 29' then the owners were killed and the arabs took over. Its not desputed territory, its not "occupied", its plain theft. Well, Haaretz, Sully, Dutch should be proud that the democracy they so crave once again slights the Jews.

Cut off funding to Peace Now

No more free ride, no more exemptions from the draft to study the Talmud, no more parasitic Yeshivah Buchers who don't work, no more welfare for unprovidents breeders of large families at the expense of those in Israel who put in an honnest day's work. That should do it: take away the incentives, you take away the problem and no more protection from the IDF, stop risking the lives of thoses boys in order to protect undeserving citizens.

The most fanatical settlers are inhabiting Hebron, and their lawlessness and pogromistic endeavors are an example to all the messianic nuts. A small group of settlers, about 500, have been pushing out tens of thousnads of Arab residents (some 25,000) out of the city, by every illegal means of intimidation available. Enough with this outrage. Let it be remembered that the Zionist movement had agreed in 1947 to the Partition Plan, whereby Hebron would have been left in Palestinian hands. This made sense, because of the geographic location of Hebron, deep inside the Arab area, and it still makes sense. Let it also be remembered that the Partition plan came 18 years after the 1929 Hebron Massacre. The massacre was not a good enough reason then to hang on to Hebron, and it still isn't. And don`t worry about Jewish access to the Cave of the Patriarchs. With Israel being able to control access to the Temple Mount, access to the lesser shrine in Hebron will always be available.

I don't believe when the Palestinians were throwing rocks they were called holligans or terrorist. Is that the way the left wing media is playing it now ignoring Rockets hitting Israel and making the Palis sound like a displaced minority.

The settlers of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are subject to Israeli law. The Palestinians on the other hand is under MATAK(the Israeli Ministry of Defense's Office of Coordination and Liaison)and subject to a hoch poch of Ottaman, Egyptian, Jordanian and British Laws, but in relity what ever orders from the occupiers.

Haaretz continues with the poisoning and sickening articles against the Jewish Community of Hevron. It is really sad that Left-wing Israelis live in this utopia where Arabs will be happy with 'just' the disputed teritories.The more we give back the more they will ask and when can we say stop-when they reach Raanana???It's sickening and disgusting how you keep demonising the mitnachalim-the modern pioneer Zionists, with an idealogy long lost among your ranks.When Hevron falls-chas v'shalom-in total Arab control,Jews will never be able to visit the Machpelah again.It seems there is an orchistrated effort to strip Israel from all Jewish symbols. SHAME ON YOU!!!

You say that "'The [Second] Temple was destroyed because of unfounded hatred'" - meaning civil strife and violence among Jews, even when the Romans were besieging Jerusalem." The fact is that one of those factions aided the Romans! Just like today, there are some Jews who support OUR enemies rather than the Jews- including the Jews of Hebron. De facto, YOU are allowing the Romans into OUR city to destroy it.

Arab citizens of Israel do live all over Israel, both in their own towns and in large cities. They make up over 20% of Israel's population. On the other hand, there are no Jews communities in any Arab/Moslem country, some of which have made it illegal for Jews to live there or even enter. How about that!

"Yonatan`s mistake, is thinking that the Palestians are thinking like he does, and that their main interest is having a Palestinain state in the west bank, (even all of it)!" I never said nor thought anything of the sort. I don't think peace is possible with the Palestinians as things stand today. What concerns me more is how we act as Jews and human beings. That's why I wrote above (#23), "But the Jewish settlers of Hebron are unwilling to live peacefully with their neighbors, and break the laws of Israel". And, as I wrote in #9 above, the Jewish settlers in Hebron and their supporters are like the Zealots and Sicarii at the end of the Second Temple, threatening to destroy Israel as a democratic state where the rule of law prevails. "The [Second] Temple was destroyed because of unfounded hatred" - meaning civil strife and violence among Jews, even when the Romans were besieging Jerusalem.

univercity of haifa booklet for international students specifically does not recomend to visit israeli arab towns and willages, since it is not safe. and they are right, israeli arabs can visit any place in israel safely but jews -israeli or others can not visit arab places in israel. it gives some thing for thought.

tipical guy from rehov shenkin.

Jews do not and cannot live "anywhere" in Arab lands. Every sovereign country decides on whom they allow as residents or refugees. If your country decides to allow Sadaams murderers to enter and cry "refugees" Israel does not complain.So kindly observe the same courtesies. PS. You have no idea about International rules and borders when you quote 1948 as the borders. Not even the UN calls for that.

`71 and the `Military Technique of Temporary Settlemanting` is implemented to the criticism of the U.S.. They are assured they are `temporary`. They lasted 35 years, `temporary` is over. . .people forget that they were `temporary`. To have people on the ground `looking for the enemy` for infilitration. The enemy has been found, time to retire the troops, take the tents down and come home. Time to wake up to `the truth`. Let the settlers move to Arad.

The KKK also didn't allow certain people to live in certain places.

Yonatan's mistake, is thinking that the Palestians are thinking like he does, and that their main interest is having a Palestinain state in the west bank, (even all of it)! Wake up, they want Haifa, Jaffa, Acco, Kfar Saba, the Hula Valley, Degania, etc.. They do not consider the west bank and gaza, their home. They consider themselves "refugees" there. Hebron, and Jersualem, are just two more stepping stones, till they throw you out, and return to their homes, where you are living now. That's what almost all "palestinian" say they want. The various terrorist groups, whether Hamas, Fatach, PA, abu maazin, ALL say, when they talk about the "rights of the refugees" to YOUR house in kfar saba, and only differ on how to obtain this goal, all at once (Hamas) or a little at a time (PA)

"In your article it describes the "hoolians" as "receives protection from the Israel Defense Forces, but is unwilling to obey its orders". That description applies to every civilian citizen and every national army in every democracy." - Thomas Jefferson By choice, the settlers in Hebron are living in an area under occupation, and which is therefore under IDF administration. They are not living in Israel, they are living where the IDF is the government authority and therefore, by choice, they are subject to policing by the army.

A truly terrible series of events. May God bless the souls of the victims. A concerned observer

HEBRON IS A VERY HOLY CITY FOR JEWS. MIRIAM LEVINGER HAD A VISION FOR THE CITY. TODAY IT IS KEPT IN HORRIBLE CONDITIONS. THIS MUST CHANGE. THERE SHOULD BE HOTELS AND MALLS AND NO TERROR.

"for some reason the middle east on both sides breeds very limited minds,it is very primitive." we have now been suitably educated.

I think Eric was pointing out that Arabs in Israel can feel safe and comfortable in any town in Israel, whereas this is not true for Jews in Palestinian Authority towns or even in some Arab towns in Israel.

Eric, You seem to forget that not all Arabs left Israel in the 1940's. Some were able to stay. These Arabs are citizens of Israel! Naturally they are able to get education and health care (even though it is on a lesser level).

i was fascinated by danite's comment that the african lemba jews have the 'cohen gene' does danite have any more goodies of this calibre to share with us? the buba clan of the lemba has a particularly strong 'cohen gene' is danite by any chance a buba?

It happens time and time over, the trick is to have people outside of Gov't responsibility to work for the Gov't agenda in an unlawful way and the Gov't have no responsibility for this because they lie and say they have nothing to do with it. When the thugs usefulness have been exhausted, then the Gov't usually tries to explain the new situation etc etc and the thugs are supposed to adhere and stop the operations. Now low and behold the thugs wont and the Gov't goes all Rambo on them, but at the same time feels a little bit quilty, because after all it was we that etc etc etc. It sounds like a ficticious story written by an 16 year old. "Arghhhhhh" "ieeeeiiiii". It's time for the villagers to beat it to pulp, exept for the ones that think: "he is rather cute".

I can empathize with the pain and anger the settlers feel regarding the possibility that they will be evacuated from their homes, particularly as so many Israeli governments either sent them there or gave in to them. But to imply that they are in Judea and Samaria because of God's will is a self-delusion. God has not killed the Arab first born, nor put a plague just on them, nor whisked them off by magic carpet to another country. On the contrary, He is making the world support them and detest the settlers. That alone is not enough reason to disregard principles (religous or otherwise), but it does indicate that a reality check is necessary.

"the israeli government and left" The Hebron settlers should have "left" a long time ago. "the government is the enemy of G-d" "After prophecy was taken from Israel, it was given to fools..." (the Rabbis) "they are the defenders of G-d" I didn't know God was so weak he needed defenders. With "defenders" like these, who needs enemies? "chevron" the name of an American oil company, I believe. I didn't know they were part of the Land of Israel. How about Sunoco, Mobil and Shell - are they too?

I have long been angry at the Palestinian Authority's "inability" to control its terrorists and believed the problem was really a lack of desire to do so. Thinking back on how many of the settlements were set up and how the Israeli government is now allowing illegal and violent behavior, I have to wonder how much better or more in control we are of our gangsters of God.

As an Israeli citizen I have no problem with IDF targeting Palestinian terrorist leaders and I have no problem with IDF targeting Jewish terrorists. ShinBet & IDFs total failure in hunting down & eliminating the Kach-Kahane terror gang and the drive-by Jewish killers of Palestinians has emboldened the Jewish terrorists until they will be attacking and killing cowardly IDF troops afraid to fight the settler terrorists. Either Israel will be saved by the IDF and ShinBet from total anarchy and mob control or it will fail in its duties of protecting the public and itself and should be disbanded.

Let's be honest!! Look what happened to 2 soldiers in Ramallah. Ramallah is the most enlightened of all Palestinian cities but in broad daylight at 11:00 in the morning Jews were lynched and thrown out of the window alive and trampled to death by a mob. Arabs shop in Israeli malls, attend Israeli Universities, are treated in Israeli Hospitals. There is not even the slightest chance that a Jew could walk around safely in a palestinian city. As long as Jews cannot stroll with Kippas safely in Ramallah, Bethlehem and Hebron they have every right to live under Israeli law in Hebron. the Jews left hebron in the context of a horriffic massacre in 1929. The Arabs started 2 wars and lost them (1948, 1967) Until there is a Palestinian leadership that is willing to compromise, Israelis have every right to reside in Hebron. Many of the settlers are more than happy to consider a compromise that would include a Palestinian State in the majority of Yosh! I think the left should talk to settlers!

Israel's annexation of Jerusalem areas beyond it's 1949 borders is not valid in international law. Israel's IDF occupation of and authority in West Bank Hebron is not acceptable in international law. So it's obvious why sharing Jerusalem is an option and why withdrawal from Hebron is required. After all how many Jews are Levites today or alive as Jews "buried in caves"? If Jews return to Hebron, Arab refugees return to their 1948 villages. Self contained WB areas under the IDF is one thing, but Hebron with it's Arabs? If Jews can live anywhere in Palestine - then Arabs can live anywhere in Israel.

In your article it describes the "hoolians" as "receives protection from the Israel Defense Forces, but is unwilling to obey its orders". That description applies to every civilian citizen and every national army in every democracy.

Hmm - If Jewish unrest in Hebron is created by "hooligans" then the whole Intifadah is a big "HOOLIGANISM" which unfortunately cost both sides thousands of lives! It is fit for somebody to hide his name after writing such a piece, delegitimizing the Jewish presence in Hebron. I think it would be fair to write a similar piece delegitimizing in *the same manner* the Arab presence in The Holy Land don't you agree, Haaretz?

i have no time for those who pick on innocents.they must be dealt with using the full force of the law.

"In my opinion it is is clear cut racism to expel Jews from Hebron. Why can Palestinians reside in Haifa TA Jerusalem ?" I have no objection to any Jew living anywhere as long as he is willing to live peacefully with his neighbors and obejy the laws of the country in which he lives ('Dina del-malkhuta dina"). But the Jewish settlers of Hebron are unwilling to live peacefully with their neighbors, and break the laws of Israel. Moreover, can you envisage Jewish settlers accepting Palestinian xitizenship, or the Palestinians accepting them? This is a matter for negotiations, but I am very pessimistic. There will have to be some evacuation of settlements (I am not an extremist who thinks ALL the settlements must be evacuated).

the israeli government and left are continuing the work of the arab rioters of 1929. both share a common goal: the destruction of Jewish life in chevron, as well as in all of Judea and Samaria, the heartland of the Land of Israel.the government is the enemy of G-d, and just as all the powers of the world who shared this goal have fallen, this regime shall fall too. along with all its supporters. the "settlers" of chevron are doing holy work. they are the defenders of G-d, His Land and His Torah. there is no difference between chevron and tel aviv. both are equaly part of the land of israel. in fact, chevron is the second holiest city, after jerusalem. so if jews have to be thrown out of oarts of israel for the sake of peace, throw the traitors out of tel aviv and let the arabs live there!

if there is no palestinian violence it is because the idf keeps it at bay. yet 12 soldiers were killed in one incident a few years ago. those in the hebron jewish community involved in breaking the law should be evacuated.no question. i do not believe they are all criminals. as to how the community came to be formed that is history and we must deal with the situation as it is today.

Short trial, long imprisonment: Take them off the streets!

It is mindbogelling why there is an absolute consensus among the left that Jerusalem must be split for there to be peace but in Hebron all Jews must be evicted!!! In my opinion it is is clear cut racism to expel Jews from Hebron. Why can Palestinians reside in Haifa TA Jerusalem ? Hebron means a real lot to many Jews. It's hard to understand Jews that are happy to relinquish Hebron. The first step in any peace agreement requires that the Palestinians can look the Jews in their eyes and state that Jews have every right to live in Hebron!!

Those who cite 1929 to justify hooligans today also justify terrorists who support return to 1948 Arab villages. Look in your mirror together.

Just as the Hebron settlers must be evacuated immediately because of their ongoing violence and unlawful behavior, so should all Jewish settlers in Judea and Samaria, who commit acts of violence or otherwise act unlawfully against the Palestinians,be evacuated immediately AND WITHOUT COMPENSATION

"i agree with his ideas yet i feel the need to be steadfast in the face of violence. if there are jews who wish to stay in hebron the the might of the idf should make that possible. " It is not because of Palestinian violence that Hebron should be evacuated; it is because of Jewish violence. As I pointed out, the present-day Jewish settlement in Hebron (unlike the ancient one which ended in an Arab pogorm in 1929) arose as a result of the violent and unlawful invasion and takeover by Rabbi Moshe Levinger and his Zealot supporters in 1976. The violence and unlawful seizure of Palestinian property continued thru the '80s and '90s (Tel Rumeidah) and continues now (in the bazaar); in the massacre committed by Baruch Goldstein in 1994; and in the violent acts of the Zealot Hebron settlewrs and their Sicarii supporters today. I therefore repeat: in order to end this Jewish violence, the Hebron settlers - all of them, for they are all messianic extremists - must be evacuated ASAP.

limor edrey's picture of the girl at the monument bearing the names of those killed has a unique pathos.check out the picture on the front page 'photographs of the year'

until the Arabs ethnically cleansed all Jews in 1929. A memorandum presented to the British High Commissioner by Hebron's community: "?the rabbis, Meir Kastel, 68 years old, and Tzvi Drabkin, 70 years old, and five other young men? were robbed, castrated, tortured and murdered? The baker, Noah Immerman was roasted alive on an oven, Rabbi Ya'akov Orlanski HaCohen? was found? praying? they took his brain from his skull and his wife's intestines were crushed? the pharmacist, Ben-Tzion Gershon, lame, unable to move, who served in Hebron for 40 years, kindly assisting many Arabs, they cut off his nose and fingers, killed him, raped his daughter and murdered her with awful torture. The teacher Dubkinov and Yitzhak Abushdid were strangled with a rope? six synagogues? including 64 Torah scrolls, many of them ancient, from the Spanish exile, all were stolen and desecrated...." http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=4310

Those who claim that problems with the neighbours should be solved before we tackle issues inside the family are encouraging the demolition of our home from within. We ignore hooliganism from our own, poverty, lousy education and corruption amongst our own, at our deadly peril.

Of course Jews and anyone else on this planet should live anywhere that they wish, provided that they do so peacefully, as good neighbors, and not harass the native population.

In this case, it's just a matter of will. Outposts and this "rebellion" are just crowd control for an organised and capable modern nation.

They should have taken all those "few who believe G-d had given them" the right to vandalize, put themselves and their children, & other's children, in jeopardy" and on top use all these innocents lives (mentioned before), in Hebron to humiliate decent, hard working loving or not loving (who cares!) because we "had been in there for what? 3000 years! Who cares who was first?! And who can believe in a G-d who so loves the blood of innocents & finds pleasure in the constant humiliation of another group of people. I say leave them all deal with their "G-d send presence" And let us all move to live in peace in our land. I fear not from the Palestinians who want to live in peace with me. I fear from arrogance and ignorance and stupidity from those that carry G-d words in their lips. Been this G-d Allah, Christ, or my dog Chica!

i agree with his ideas yet i feel the need to be steadfast in the face of violence. if there are jews who wish to stay in hebron the the might of the idf should make that possible.

Let no one make a mistake - the Jewish settlement in Hebron has, since its inception in 1976, been composed only of messianic extremists, Zealots similar to those that caused the destruction of the Second Temple. The only difference today is that some of these Zealots and their supporters from elsewhere in Judea and Samaria (I use these terms because they are historically correct) are evolving into Sicarii. If anyone is unsure exactly how I am using the terms "Zealot" and "Sicarii", I refer him/her to the pertinent Wikipedia entries. As someone steeped in Jewish tradition, I know that our original homeland is mostly in the West Bank today; but realities are realities - the Palestinians won't leave their homes in the WB and Gaza and we Jews won't leave our homes in Jerusalem, Tel-Aviv or Kefar-Sava. Anyone who advocates transfer, like Choni, is simply deluded. I therefore suggest, again, that the Jewish Zealots of Hebron be evacuated immediately.

it occurs to me sometimes that the jews in hebron being so few should not continue to stay there. but then i think of the 59 jews killed in 1929 in a vicious attempt to expel us. i then have no more doubts.as long as we find jews who wish to live in hebron then we should protect and help them.

delude yourself your services will be rewarded.

Jews have owned this property for nearly 200 years. Jews have owned other properties in Hebron for MUCH longer. Yet it doesn't bother you when some people want to steal this Jewish property? It doesn't bother you when the Arabs ethnically cleanse ALL Jews from Hebron in 1929 and have been trying to do it again since we returned to OUR buildings on OUR land? The IDF's ONLY role in Hebron is to protect the Jews from the Arab terrorists and the Jewish-owned buildings and land from Arab land thieves. If THIS would be what they are doing, then no problem would exist.

Someone needs to get his priorities straight. Before Olmert cracks down on unruly Jews in Hebron, isn't it more important that he do what is necessary to stop all missile attacks from Gaza forthwith? Bombing empty fields is a joke. He should use whatever force is necessary to stop the attempted murder of Jews once and for all. Further, those Palestinian leaders in cities in Judea and Samaria who incite their people to murder should also be assassinated, arrested or deported. Only after all Arab terrorism is 100% rooted out should the government begin to worry about Jews in Hebron.

The real challenge are the 130,000 Ishmaelite hooligans and how and where to transfer them to.I suggest by truck and busses to Jordan and Egypt.While we are about it all hostile Ishmaelites should be expelled from Holy Eretz Yisrael.Eventually this is going to happen so start now. The Jewish Hebron "hooligans" are Israel's true Jewish heroes.

The settlers gave peace a chance at Kfar Maimon and Ofakim. Government should have known better. Hebron is the tip of the iceberg.

those who misbehave should be charged.do not tar the whole community with your accusations. those who abuse the idf should be jailed for a prolonged period.no question. and if david james trickery is found in the vicinity he should also be jailed.