Brave and forsaken

I just want to say that I read one of the Hezbollah commanders admission that had the war gone on another week, the gunners wouldn't have lasted, and it is the cease-fire that saved them. In other words, the Israeli army was quick to respond everytime it identified a rocket launcher. This was a war that no-one wanted. And Hezbollah and Hamas still hold "our" men. I hope that some kind of prisoner exchange will eventually go through so at least, G-d forbid, they won't languish away without anyone being able to visit them and to see their condition, which is against the laws of the Geneva Convention. It was a war, as far as I am concerned, that was fought on principle, and with all these failings, as this report concedes, those young men responded to the call above and beyond what was even humanly possible. In so doing, they defended Jewish honor, just like the partisans during the Second World War. I wish that we hadn't been faced with such a situation even in 2006.

All of them, correct. Somebody else wrote in your name? I remember some crazy answer (way off the point) of yours a couple of days ago...first time I looked at you.

The IDF contains some extraordinarily talented and highly motivated people. It is a conscript army but in the past its training and performance has been comparable to professional armies. I believe however that standards have dropped. One possible problem is the age of the corporals and sergeants who should be the backbone of each unit. If these ranks were harder to win and the men were older and and more experienced a lot of the recent embarrasments might not have occured as there would be more discipline and better leadership at section level. It might be worth building a professional NCO corps rather than awarding these ranks to young kids - however enthusiastic and talented they might be. An infantry platoon needs tough shrewd men with life experience, maturity and military experience. If the corporals and sergeants are five or six years older than the privates this is an advantage. Budgets and demographics permitting, this is one direction I would take.

I like your description of the soldiers too.

Waled hi Of course we read the whole article, (undoubtedly Tzfonit and Margie too). We know the valour of our IDF who endured much through the dithering and mismanagement of the high echelon's and many went to fight in an unusual battle for which were neither familiar,nor well prepared in advance.No training and totally alien to them.Ridiculous is too mild a word!BUT! still concidering the failures of the GOV'they did rather well.They stood tall and went as far as the Litani,destroyed much of the weaponry of Hizbullah as well.Only when they were just beginning to do doing their job properly what happened?Ooops!Hizballah/and the U.S (presumably)declared "STOP"cease fire!Just as the IDF became accustomed and were in their element. You don't see Hassan out and about roaming freely do you? Scared he'd be shot at by one of our own.Conversely the IDF,nor their Officers are hiding are they.Therein lays the difference Walid.Behayay. Shalom/Salam

Winning? Smashing Lebanon, destroying the roads, bankrupting the country? The Lebanese people did survive against the Israeli war machine. Israel was not able to destroy them. It is fortunate that Israel was stopped, because from your words alone ... what a terrible smashed up world it will be if the resistance is quelled and Israel is allowed to achieve 'Victory.'

I find it curious how so many on the extreme right avoid the issue discussed in the editorial and instead shovel a bunch of bull which seems only intended to avoid confronting the issue. The issue is what happens when the leadership fails the soldiers. Why are good men sent into combat with no coherent strategy, no plan to win, and insufficient logistical support to sustain them? Men 10 km past the border of their country should not have to loot stores to feed themselves. That there were immense logistical failures cannot be denied. And that those failures were due to the leadership of the IDF also cannot be denied. Men should not be sent on missions to 'sweep' an area and withdraw, only to do it again the next day. Not when rockets are falling on their homes from just beyond where they pulled back from the day before. Inadequately equipped and ill-trained units should not be thrown into combat because the men who chose to have a war months in advance failed to prepare them first.

I read the article. I also read the promo, which in itself is traitorous and that's what I was referring to. You are very protective of your own corrupt country and get very indignant when it's criticised though there's much to say to its detriment.

Hi Margie, Hannah and Neal :). Thank you for your un-wavering support for the IDF. While many of the simpletons here who wish to try and denigrate the valor and victories of the IDF, they do not seem to realize that they are even more responsible for the deaths of Israeli and Arab women and children, through their support, than the terrorists that they defend: nauseatingly repugnant in the extreme. Thus, any response to their absurd hyperboles, however amusing, is an excerise in futility. Their feeble obfuscated attempts at portraying the Hez. as victorious are an enormous source of hilarity for anyone with battle experience. The IDF w/one hand tied behind, kicked these vermin back to the Litani AFTER, the IDF was ALLOWED, to fight the last few days. Unlike the IDF, the Hez could care less about the civilians and, their supporters here refuse to see or acknowledge it and thus, are not even worthy of a serious response. So, suggestion: Don't even waste your time. They just don't get it.

one look at lebanon (which btw is occupied by syria and iran) and the rest of the arab world will quickly tell you that israel is a paradise and success in comparison. rest assured, arab incompetence is a constant, israelis will learn from their mistakes in lebanon.. my money is on the israelis in the next round.

From what you Say you Think you're a Newspaper because You point Out Israel's Faults. As for Irish politics, Most of It is Concerned with Kneecapping your Opponents or being betrayed By the British Black And Tans and Blowing the British Underground Up. They also Have a Wall in the Middle of a City but That's Okay because It's not an Israel Wall.

There was the IDF of the top ranks, the Generals who were concerned with their retirement careers as politician. Then there were the grunts who had to do the fighting. I was appalled when the Olmert government decided to do a series of sweeps a short distance into Lebanon for reasons which remain unclear, unless they simply wished to seem to be doing something. This left good men fighting - and some dying - to take and retake the same turf. Such is very hard to take when your the guys doing the fighting and dying. The ground war - the only war that could force Hizbollah out of rocket range - was pursued in a faltering, half-hearted, incompetent fashion by the generals - which was painfully obvious to anyone paying attention at the time. The men fighting the war were not faltering, half-hearted or incompetent. Rather they fought hard and well, despite being victims of logistical incompetence of an astounding magnitude, and indecision that made mockery of the concept of command.

"The IDF has learned, we hope, to finally stop believing the post 1967 hype and realize that if we do things stupidly we might lose (or at least not win)." - Dyinglikeflies The post Gulf War hype and tripe contributed greatly to the arrogance and hubris which affected US forces in 2003-4 when limited resistance was turned by US treatment of Iraqi's into a widespread complex of insurrections against our rule. "War by impulse is just plain stupid." - Dyinglikeflies Yup. Bush and Olmert have proven that to all rational people. Their supporters will never learn.

Haaretz prints the worst anti Israel lies for the sake of sensationalism and selling adverts. They should learn to differentiate between deliberate Israel bashing and honest criticism. Haaretz editors have no right to adopt moral stances because they seem to have no moral values themselves.

Tzfonit, neither the article nor anyone else here is criticizing the soldiers. The criticisms are being directed at the officers and the politicians behind the officers. So you can save your 4th of July fireworks for next year. The article said: "The stories of supreme heroism by individuals are the stories of those who went into battle unprepared, untrained and frustrated by ever-changing orders, but WHO PERFORMED ABOVE ALL EXPECTATIONS WITHIN THE RANKS OF A CONFUSED AND DEGENERATING ARMY." I can understand Margie's misreading of the article but I can't understand you. I think you both stopped at the title.

Gill And if they do not respond to our demand,the best thing for all who are annoyed about this disgraceful act,will be to "BOYCOTT" Them. Boycott all their paper,and stop coming here on the "talkbacks".They must know the revenue accrued from each and every response is their gain and accompanied by their "adverts"is their bread and butter. The last thing Haaretz needs is to lose their income.So instead of warning them,LET US JUST DO IT.It has become so terribly obnoxious by their various articles bashing our dear COUNTRY AND OUR PEOPLE constantly and NOW they are latching on OUR IDF THAT KEEPS THEM SAFE.INGRATES THE LOT OF THEM! Do they not realize the fact denigrating the IDF is the greatest insult perpetrated by the writer, and by Haaretz that allows it!

"And if someone is trying to convince me that the IDF does not have war plans agianst Lebanon and hizballh and other enemies of Israel ready, then I think all the general staff should be fired." - sam What if the question is "I want a quick, cheap, fast war with no casualties"? And what if the answer from the Chief of Staff is "we will bomb the crap out of Lebanon, blow up their bridges, destroy their gas stations and trash the Shiite neighborhoods of Beirut, all from the air and with no significant ground campaign"? You forget that it has been 34 years - a career - since Israel fought a war for it's existence. It has been 26 years since Israel mounted a major land invasion of another country. The IDF has for the most part spent the last 30 years as a overly muscular police force. It has spent that time kicking the crap out of vastly inferior forces and pushing civilians around. That is what occupation is, and it debilitates any army that does it for long. Any army.

Many are responsible for the army's deterioration. First, forget Peretz - egotistical knucklehead ? Of course, but he got so many votes, he was able to demand an important cabinet post. Blame the Israeli electorate , but, more importantly, Peretz had nothing to do with the army's demise. Olmert ? Yes, the crooked weakling was told the army had hollowed out, but chose to ignore it. Peres ? Yes, the old fool claims he knew beforehand that the army was in a weakened state, but did nothing to improve it . Halutz ? Yes, he deserves a big share of the blame, but, the IDF's army generals deserve even more - they were supposed to have ensured the army's readiness, but they proved themselves to be a small group of arrogant ignoramuses. If they were in the U.S. Army, they would have been court-martialed for dereliction of duty. Yalin and Mofaz? For sure, they endorsed the concept that the reserves needed no training, and that the regular army's training should be cut back.

Haaretz Editorial we demand your apology calling the Israeli Army a degenerating army, You have crossed the line several times with your phrases, which are meant to harm the Israeli symbols, as the Knesset, KKl-JNF, and now the army we so rely on! Haaretz Editorial we demand your apology, be brave and apologize, show us you are not a second class Journal but a responsible one who recognizes its faults, and recognizing in its own literal errors! Haaretz Editorial may I ask why is it you never sign your name on your work? My perspective on a journalists how don?t sign their work, Is that they should not work in Journalism! So what will it be, are you going to change your ways, and sign your work for a change?

I can not say a positive word about the so-called Israeli army. My view of the individual soldiers is different. These are very, and I mean very, atractive men....!

What a big joke. All I hear is talk of how the IDF needed more time to plan for the war etc etc etc.As if the IDF was asked to invade Mongolia or some far away unkown land. This is Lebanon people, the IDF should know this place like its own backyard(it is its own backyard). And if someone is trying to convince me that the IDF does not have war plans agianst Lebanon and hizballh and other enemies of Israel ready, then I think all the general staff should be fired.

It is the responsibility of serious Journalists to point out the Failures of their Government. Incidentally,Haaretz is not giving any secrets to the enemy or any one else. Everybody and his mother knows that the IDF is a degenerating Army, but "degenerate" would be more appropriate. You can thank the 40 year Illegal Occupation and brutal treatment of the Palestinian People for the State of your beloved "Tsahal" Incidentally read my post@43 to Lakshmi on the Yossi Beilin thread re conditions in Gaza and women wearing headscarves, by time Magazine.Maybe the author will pass your litmus test for credibility.I recall you had some disagreement on that issue a couple of days ago. Regards

Not only is the phrase "a confused and degenerating army" a false ray of hope to our enemies, but it is an insult and a defamation to every soldier in the IDF, every living and fallen hero who was decorated this week, to their families, and to every Israeli. No one could read the stories behind the citations of courage and bravey awarded this week, or of the countless other deeds that were performed during the war - without being deeply moved. The contrast between the soldiers being decorated for bravey and the events reported this week is a stark and alarming one. These matters must and will be addressed with sereity. But the decorated soldiers are the people who represent the spirit and character of the IDF.

Good answer: thank you. It's the best rebuttal to Hannah and her venom.

Yes, for you people that was indeed a victory. They remained standing after we left. That's a victory. Lebanon is smashed, no roads, no bridges, almost no electricity, no money, no honour. Militias run the country. The PM cries on television like a baby. The leader of the militia is afraid to appear in public. He gives his victory address from a place where he's 'secure'. The number of dead Hezbullah ghosts - fighters has still not been revealed out of embarrassment that so many were killed. The world knows that missiles were hidden in people's houses. and if that's a victory for you. Enjoy it. We call it a victory when people win, not when they survive.

Well said.

Dropping "cluster bombs" and killing civilian populations makes the IDF and "ENEMY OF G_D". Perhaps Margie can "litigate" her way to heaven!

They were forsaken all right and it is a degenerate army that sends its soldiers into battle unequiped. Too bad not enough Israelis watched their Channel 10 documentary on the failure of the IDF and how it had forsaken its boys by sending them into action without food, water, equipment and proper arms. The IDF still has to learn the difference between fighting rock throwing kids and the professional fighters of Hizbullah. Even the elite Egoz of the Golani Brigade had to learn this. It is odd that this program has been seen by more Lebanese than Israelis who continue parroting and dreaming about the inglorious IDF who had to break into people?s homes and stores to scrounge for food and water. Israelis should be ashamed for what their army had done to their soldiers. When 3,000 are required to remove a few unarmed civilian squatters, there is nothing glorious about this army. The Israeli navy isn?t any better and it is only good to shell civilians from a distance until it took a direct hit from Hizbullah and had to limp home. So keep your inglorious IDF and your navy at home fighting kids and fishermen off Gaza and just send in your IAF to do the dirty work.

Haaretz - While I suspect that this response will never see the light of day, I still feel compelled to respond to this... "Editorial Expose" for it does nothing more than provide aid and comfort to Pal terrorists who are bent on the extermination of ALL, Jews. And, should that day ever come (G_g forbid) Haaretz will not be immune. Every army in the world always has an exception or two no matter how professional and the IDF is no exception. But, even with exceptions, the IDF is still the best army in the world - Bar None. Unlike most other armies of the world, the IDF does not fight for conquests or some distantly vague political notion or gain. No, the IDF when needed fights for the people and institutions of Israel. They fight to protect, Moms, Dads, Brothers and Sisters and their homes. And, they know, if they lose, their Moms and Dads, et.al. will be, at best, slaughtered. Thus, the IDF's incentives for fighting and sacrificing and winning at all costs are without equal. W

As you put it, "aid and comfort to the enemy" was taken by the thorough defeat of the so-called Israeli army and airforce through 32 days last summer. You may possibly remember that 4 million people (out of a total Lebanese population of 7 million) turned up to the Hez'b Allah victory celebration. There is nothing that a journalist can or cannot say to mitigate that pitiful defeat of so-called Israel. Why not fact up to the fact that not only your army, but your entire zionist presence in Palestinian land is a "degenerate" force. Why not pack it in and just go home? After all, a true-belief holiday, no matter how false that zionist belief was, is still something you can tell your grandchildren about. It's about time to give up on this silly Rothschildean dream which has rapidly become a nightmare for all involved.

There is nothing like occupation duty to degrade an army.

why blame the army..... fatigue is an inevitable consequence. time to cut a deal... and live in peace.

I'd like the editor who came up with the phrase 'degenerating army' to explain himself and his intention to the citizens of this country whose security and happiness depend on that same army. It's clearly not an active law in Israel if one at all, which has been at war for 60 years but the USA and Canada consider it treason to give aid and comfort to the enemy, which the promo for this piece certainly does without pretence or excuse. Tsahal is not a 'degenerating army' by any measure. If I were a litigating kind of person I would take this newspaper to the courts for diminishing our security by deliberately diminishing our national morale. I'd like to know what the purpose was; could it have just been to gain a spectacular headline?

With heartfelt sympathies to the families of the boys we lost, let's be grateful that all we got last summer was a relatively tiny bloody nose and a lesson in the perils of mediocrity and bad leadership and not a real war. Those boys died for a good cause, even if there will never be a parade. The IDF has learned, we hope, to finally stop believing the post 1967 hype and realize that if we do things stupidly we might lose (or at least not win). The military men can't rely on the scientists, the politicians can't rely on the military "experts", and the politicians can't make military decisions unless they think it through. War by impulse is just plain stupid.

ANOTHER HAARETZ FIZZER!! JUST 20 YEARS AFTER WW1 BRITAIN WAS TOTALLY UNPREPARED FOR WAR WITH GERMANY ALSO THE USA WITH JAPAN RUSSIA WITH GERMANY ! IT TAKES AROUND AYEAR OF ACTION TO CREATE SEASONED TROOPS READY TO FIGHT EFFECTIVELY NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY ARE TRAINED. JUST IMAGINE IF BRITAIN HAD PULLED OUT OF THE WAR WITH GERMANY 30 DAYS AFTER FIGHTING STARTED !EVEN WHEN LOSING ITS ENTIRE ARMY IN FRANCE BRITAIN DID NOT PULL OUT ! IDIOTS LIKE OLMERT KNOW NOTHING THAT IS THE PROBLEM