Beyond Yachimovich's view

Yishai Kohen seems to be unaware of what is going around him. Levy and Yachimovich are not biased. The facts are.

Do you think that the Palestinians will end up with more land than was offered in 1948? Or 1967? Or 2000?

I had a huge respect for Ms. Yachimovich until recently when a couple of days after she decided join the labor party she also decided to embrace the religious estblishment (she is new in politics and she thinks that is a must). On her comments about the religious establishment she explains about the importance of keeping the spirituality of the Sabbath as opposed to the materialistic view of the non religious groups. Ms. Yachimovitch, I am ready to fight for everything you fought for until now, but please let me be materialistic if I feel like it. Thank you.

What do you mean she's tired of hearing about the Muqata! http://muqata.blogspot.com/ Jameel is upset to hear about this?

There will be peace in 2037. That's when the Arab oil reserves run out. Then no one will care who controls the West Bank or Gaza or the Golan. The Middle East can go to blazes and may be the best nation win.

yes, we do. she will not face an easy job. it's easier to write enthusiastically an article and easier to formulate more or less anonymously posts at the end of one of gideon levy's articles in ha'aretz. much easier. and because I think I know what she is going through in the next months when realizing what little impact her strenuous work may have in real politics I double my good wishes for her. and I hope to be wronged in my fears that "the situation" will continue again for years and years. and I hope against all odds that the elections will bring up a new government: people who work towards realistic goals. saber rattling threats against iran - as dangerous as that country may be under her actual leaders - are not at all helpful. or no, they are: when you want to cache some big problems on the national agenda. and bibi always played the national card when he didn't have solutions for internal problems. many here in this "discussion" mentioned it: there are lots of homework to do on both sides of the conflict. and yes, I miss stronger attempts on the palestinian side to build up a state. it's wrong to believe that anybody would "give" you a state. you have to build it up by yourself. there are many helpers out there, in europe and in israel too. financially and with know-how-coaching. but you have to define your rules. you have to work for it. I know what I am speaking about: I have been born in europe not long after WWII. there is no crying about the past. there is no fingerpointing to the guilt of others. there is only one aspect that counts: knowing what happened and what went wrong, apologize if you have to and then roll up your sleaves and prepare for tomorrow. that is exactly what I missed over all the years on the palestinian side. I heard lamenting about everything and excusing all the many not done work with israeli occupation. (I remember well the accusations about a wrecked water plant in gaza built by an international group and with international help funds. it was great as long it worked properly. when it came to the point of servicing and repairing there was only lamenting and a rude quest for repair toward the constructor's group. why did they not care for ever for a properly working water plant? no word about really, really taking over the plant, it means to feel responsible for it. the occupation has been a wrong and it will take years for the israeli society to come to terms with responsibility. but this is up to the israelis. the palestinians now have a small chance and will get bigger chances. take it and be constructive. this is the only roadmap to peace.

quote: "Allah doesn`t say this land belongs to the Jews. This land belongs to its inhabitants..not to immigrants and converts and "lost tribes" comming from around the world." hi, khalid, clearly, allah couldn't say that the land belonged to the jes as in his times he came a bit later than the jewish god who already claimed this small strip of earth for his people! ;-) come down to earth, khalid. and let's forget about this silly pseudo-religious argument. let's sit at the table and discuss our needs - yours and ours. and then, let's find viable ways for us - you and us. it won't be without costs - nor for you and not for us. every win-win-tactic means that all of the sides have to give up their share for the benfit of a greater common goal. okay?

quote: "Go out to war fully armed to protect all locations through which it is easy for them to conquer the land." where has the lubawitcher rebbe been in 1978? in eretz yisroel or on brooklyn? he wasn't sitting at the border full in arms, was he? don't distort religion and the jewish laws for egomanic trips of only one people disregarding all the others. it is this kind of sermon that hurts the jewish people living among the nations more than sometimes israeli politics do.

hi harold, you forgot a piece: long before 648 CE there came along an invader to the lands we nowadays call israel - avram from ur in babylonia.... always troubles with the iraquis, isn't it? ;-) to be a bit more earnest: won't you think it better to focus on the present and to look for ways out of this awful quagmire than to stir up again and again the endless tit-for-tat since we lost paradise?

Jeff, As I mentioned before in our discussions Israel has no legal right to determine the terms of a final status agreement or the marking of final borders as it has failed to fulfilled the terms of its own sovereignty under UN Reslutions 181 and 194. Neverless, a final status agreements and the marking of final borders should comes under the jurisdiction of the UN in compliance with international law. Thanks, Dutch

"It is better for us to turn our attention inward, many think" As long as Israel keeps on attempting to strongarm the Palestinians in accepting the continuous occupation of East Jerusalem and the Jordan Valley, there really is no "inward" to speak of. You're all in the Muqata.

Shalom Freedman: You have it all absolutely wrong--it is not Amos Schocken and Haaretz's who has damaged the image of Israel-- it is your greedy and untrustworthy leaders; and your "pioneer settlers"; and the brutality of the Israeli Army. All three of these groups have taken a once beloved nation and turned the world against it. Thus when your untrustworthy leaders; illegal settlers; and brutal Israeli Army is denouced by the world on this side of the Atlantic --people know the heart and soul of Israel is still morally good and kind. That's thanks to Haaretz's and other fine Israeli organizations such as B'Tselem and Gush Shalom. Hence, in this season of praise I wish to say God Bless them all--each and every one! Dutch

As someone who loves peace and social justice for all regardless of religious,ethnic or national idenity, ending the occupation in Palestine should be a clarion call for all socially conscious people worldwide--but more so for Israeli's since they would benefit the most from a just resolution of this conflict. It always amazes me why something that is so glaringly self-evident is not appreciated by ALL Israeli's. When it comes to bread and butter issues, why can't Israeli's see the occupation and colonization of Palestine has meant less money for social programs and other worthy investment for Israeli society. Absent of Uncle Sam's foreign aid package and contributions from abroad by others, the social problems of today, which are evident by the sprouting soup kitchens in Israel, would be dramatically much worse than they are now. Israel with all it's might is dependent state on the genorosity and goodwill of foreigners. 50 years after it's ill gotten birth, it's still can't stand on it's own. What good is it to build another 1,000 settlements in occupied Palestine if 100,000 Israeli's go to bed hungry every day( according to studies mostly children)? Ending the occupation will not only free Palestinians from Israeli opression, but it will free Israeli's TO DEAL WITH THEIR OWN PROBLEMS in a just way. The gun and butter question is as old as time itself. It's about time Israeli's see they are not immune from the laws of economics. Uncle Sam is drowning in red ink and natural disasters--and some self-made as in Iraq. Americans won't bail out Israel forever, even if self-delusions tell you otherwise.

Gina: How disingenuous to gloss over what was "offered." Surely you know the figures. Ultimately, the question is: how can anyone offer me less than half of my house and expect me to agree?

Andrew, The Palestinian people wouldn't need to build a nation if thieves Israel were not so intent upon tearing it down and grabbing their land. In the last four years, the Israeli Army has demolished over 2 billion dollars in Palestinian infrastructure and private property. (That was all US tax payers monies and donors monies too. ) Ripped up over 1 million Olive trees and vegetation and confiscated over 900,000 dunams. In addition, the Israeli Army confiscated Palestinian water supply and rationed them on their own water supply. Did you know that Israelis use 4-5 times more water than Palestinians, and the settlers use 20 times the Palestinians. They are the monsters in the territories running all the wells dry and the near by rivers. Shame on them! They are the ones who need to be rationed. Thus, Andrew if thieves in Israel would stop tearing down Palestinian infrastructure and give the Palestinian people back the land they have stolen and stop using their resources --the Palestinain wouldn't need to build a nation-they would already have one. Dutch Dutch

Very good point made to Khalid, bbl. I have read about the genetic testing which shows the Semitic kinship between Jewish persons and the Arabs living in Palestine. Just to be fair and make sure that everyone who is claiming to be descended from the folks kicked out by the Romans circa AD 135, each immigrant claiming to be ethnically Jewish should have a DNA test to verify the authenticity of his/her ethnicity. But where does that put the converts to Judaism if biology is brought up as proof of Semiticism?

You can keep the wall, just don't use the wall to steal more Palestinian land. Keep it on the green line without the theft and suffocation of Palestinian villages, and we'll be ok. Peace.

Steven, who were the people of the land known as Palestine since even before it was so first cited in writing by Herodotos circa 440 BC as "Syria Palaestina," by which name the area was known popularly? Although Herodotos himself did not visit the place, there was knowledge of such a name as well as the fact that there were Arabs living in that general territory at the time, also mentioned by Herodotos in good Greek. Remember, there were many other ethnic groups living in "Syria Palaestina" besides the Israelites and Judaeans, such as Nabataeans (Arabs who had migrated from the north circa 500 BC and founded the great cultural capital of Petra), Idumaeans (a group predating the Hebrews), Canaanites, Samaritans, maybe even remnants of the (gasp!)Filasteen. What were the people living in pre-1948 Palestine called? There were Palestinian Arabs, who had been promised independence by the British, and Palestinian Jews, far fewer in number. The name Palestine is written on the passports of those born there before 1948. Jabotinsky, in "On the Iron Wall (1923)," refers to the non-Jewish inhabitants as the "Palestinian Arabs" and calls them a "nation" that will never give up its "birthright" to the land, to which they are as attached as the Aztecs when the conquistadores came to rob them of it, as the Plains Indians when the white Europeans came to kill and settle. The Palestinian Arabs revolted against the British, who realized what a monstrous blunder they had committed. Too late. The Zionist terror groups succeeded in driving out the British and intimidating the natives. The holocaust tipped the balance. The rest is history, and Zionist history has succeeded in sweeping the narrative of the Palestinian Arabs under the rug. It is a very sad story. Read the British accounts of their "small wars" during the first half of the twentieth century.

Before Mr. Levy teaches Israeli labor history courses, here is a quick history lesson for Mr. Levy. Before the "workers from the territories" came to Israel, how do you think sephardic, yemenite and other middle eastern jews were treated in the days of the Mandate? Well, they were discriminated against. There have been countless other examples of worker discriminations in Israel before the country was even a state and when there were no Palestinian territories, such as when Jordan and Egypt controlled the West Bank and Gaza respectively, without having to reference the Palestinians and to define every single issue as Israel's treatment of the Palestinianss.

When President Kennedy said in 1961 "Ich bin ein Berliner" he meant that at that point in time he was supportive of the besieged citizens of Berlin as if he were one as well. When Amira Hass said that most Israelis are settlers she meant exactly the same- that deep down most Israelis and their representatives support the settlers and the settlements even if ultimately they will have to abandon them partly or all. Conceptually, emotionally and viscerally the Israelis want the Palestinians to disappear into thin air and own the entire land from the sea to the river and if in the end they will pull back to or near the Green Line it is not because of the conviction that they had caused the Palestinians a great injustice!

That's two! (Look Mona, the Palestinians would have many more supporters if they'd just passionately renounce terrorism and jail their terrorist groups)

Thanks. However, I wish I possessed your wit. Your post the other night about Israel becoming a rogue nation and receiving billions in blackmail funds from the EU had me rolling off the chair laughing.

"There is nothing in the world more important than the occuation including terror" Khalid And that sir is your problem. No one and nothing matters except you. No one's lives count except yours. That is the bigger problem and the reason there is no peace. People like you don't want to see both sides, there is only one. Yours.

you got my vote.....when they disarm their cowards and stop calling for destruction of Israel.

unfortunately, they only know how to destroy !

Thank you for quoting me Gina. I have enjoyed your many thoughtful posts.

I have long been an admirer of Gideon Levy and I think that he has got it about right when he suggests that we cannot solve the Jewish problem - our internal problems - without solving the Palestinian one. It would be a deeper disaster than the one we have been in for the last 5 years and more,if we pretend that by concentrating on our social ills, and there are many, everything else will simply go away or that someone else will take care of that 'everything else'. These issues are as Gidon Levy astutely observes, intertwined. I used to listen avidly to Ms Yachimovich when she was on Reshet Bet. She was well informed, astute and held views with which I identified. She is well advised by Gideon Levy and if she is to succeed in convincing the electorate of her candidacy, she must use her public profile to promote a whole and not partial message. Israel must end its occupation of the Palestinians and do it via negotiations and not unilaterally. Without this the corrosion within Israel will continue. Ms Yachimovich, you can't go and clean out just one corner of the stable, you have to clean it all.

Hi Mark, I afraid that land and water issues are not easier than a "right of return" one since it was a sticking point in Camp David talks. I don't see any indication that Mahmoud Abbas backed off. And creation of a Palestinian state and "right of return" are mutually exclusive issues. So sadly we won't see a Palestinian state around any time soon.

Check CAMERA REPORT ON HAARETZ' INACCURACY

"We will have a Pal state soon Insha Allah,Save your breath." - How soon will you have it and how viable it will be depends on how soon you dismantle your terrorist infrastructure and how much you are willing to compromize. If you don't pass those two tests I afraid what you get is just a land inside the wall.

Sam As you see the above title,that is an indication of what we are up against. No point in perpetuating the same mantra.Many people have pointed out what you have mentioned. Shall I tell you what the crux of the matter is? I mean from the very start,it has been and I fear will be the same till doomsday: They cannot stomach a non Islamic country among their midts that is the position. Well,they tried even long before the "Rebirth of Israel" murdering and pillaging.Having said that the State of Israel was reborn and you must know and see what transpired immediately. The new Israel was attacked by the monsters! All the surrounding Arab countries attacked it. They lost. It happened the second time,yet again they lost, it happened the 3rd time and they lost.So, what are you trying to say here Sam ha? I have made it as plain as possible. Aye, there's the rub. Innitially when they were offered to accept partition they refused and the majority left in droves because their Arab brethren asked them to leave thinking it would be as easy as pie that young Israel would be annihilated and they can then return in triumph and VICTORY! But they underestimated our people! They vanquished them and the ones that left are now after 60 years are crying foul! No chance matey,none at all. No return of the so-called non existent refugees,NO SIREE! On the other hand the wise ones stayed and are living as Israeli citizens a comfortable and prosperous life in our country. End of Story S

If not for Khalid, I would even suggest the Jews on this site to say whether they they have a problem with a Palestinian State. The problem is that Khalid might send 100 of his messages, from Settler#1,Settler#2, Setter...#129 claiming that we want to kill Palestinians. I agree with Gina, and with Musa, and with Mona. Lets have a Palestinian state. But, please, please, show us somehow that this would be the end of hatered and violence? Also, Mona and Musa, I wonder what you think of the issue of Jerusalem. I am sure that all of us would rather it to be *their* capital. However, when Jordan had control over it -- no Jew could even visit it. But under the "brutal" Israeli Occupation, Jewish police does not even allow Jews to pray at the Temple Mount, out of consideration for Muslims (yes, we are allowed to pray there, under certain conditions). I am not even mentioning that the Arabs are still there, and considered Israelis. Also, there is relative order under the Israeli rule. I mean, ideally, who cares about the boundaries? Europe seems to have forgotten they exist. But the reality, security needs to be preserved if we are ever to get to that stage. And, frankly, I just see that Israel can be trusted with it much better. What happens in 50 years will depend on how quickly we will stop hating eachother.

Howdy Julius; You said, "Powers that kept other nations at their disposal, sooner or later disintegrated." However, history is repleat with examples of countries which did not lord it over another country and which bit the dust a lot sooner than those which did. What's your point?

GO to the "Tali Fahima" article and read what I told you there .

"If you know of any "Pal" board where I can contribute, please let me know. I would like to express my opinion on one of them." - Kim Try this site: http://www.imemc.org/index.php You can send comments on almost any article there.

in the Present, in the 21st. Century, the Palestinians have very little. If we live in the world of today, the Palestinians have no country. Without reaching into the past, to speak of a tenuous historical claim, it is the Palestinians not the Israelis who have a dispossesed present and a questionable future. "Maybe the reason why you guys never had a homeland for centuries cuz God knew ...." Does it really work this way. Cause if it does, G-d currently loves the Jews and cares litte for the Muslims.Thnax for your supportive analyses"""""""""""""""""""" Oh well thanks for letting my lil secret out in the open,Ok you win,I am Mona! Strange you speak of palestinian loss and no identity,they have no land no home cuz jews took it away and are keep taking it ever since,in forms of settlements and illegal wall which has taken and destroyed their lands'orchids,gardens. Today they suffer cuz of israel only!They have no name now,but palestine and palestinians always existed,You had no homeland for centuries and were nomads and gypsies wandering from land to land,country to country,region to region.Thanks for acknwledging that Pals have a uncertain future,and thanks to you guys,its been that way for way \til now. I wont speak for God but i know one thing, those whom God loves the most are tested in faith and courage and patience,that sounds like just what Palestinians are enduring at the moment,not israelis.

"We will have a Pal state soon Insha Allah," Mona, what is your opinion as to why the Palestinians refused a state each time it was offered to them? By the way, I'll become a Palestinian supporter too, once they ban and jail their terrorist groups.

Khalid, you represent the great nakba to Palestinians. The great tragedy is that there are people around who focus their time and their energy in just demonise Israel and the Jews while they go on building a strong nation. If your own people concentrated on their own nation building and making peace with the Israelis then it would not be long before there was an independent Palestinian state and an end to occupation. You and your ilk merely serve to prolong your peoples' misery with your constant messages of hatred.

Hi Bruce, You're right, a peace settlement is needed. Every one of the issues you raised needs to be addressed in a formal peace treaty. I suspect though, that most of the issues you raised will be easier than the land and water issues. What I find currently significant is that Sharon's new party and Labor both seem to be on the same page for once. Both see the need for Israel to end the occupation and have defined borders. Their approaches are different, but both seem to have the same goal. Wouldn't it be refreshing if after the elections, both new governments started talking to eahc other rather that around and at each other? That's the only way a settlement will be achieved.

Howdy Khalid; Stay on your side of the fence and let the Israelis stay on their side of it.

no criminal gangs- so called pals -will decide who is jewish.

his main thrust is correct....in the words of winston churchill..... never have so many (lefties)talked so much bs for so long and without any sense of shame

If you really live in the present, the 21st century, and give no weight to history, then you must accept that the Jewish State of Israel exists now. Presently, there is no Palestine. That is, if you want to give no weight to history; but if you do, then you open up that Pandora`s box, which states clearly that Israel, as a Jewish state, has existed before (the original Roman province of Palestine was the province of the Jews, therefore you usurp the name) and has the right to exist now, as a Jewish state. You are very conveniently selective in your stand.""""""""""""""""""""""""" Tell me something I dont know!I am openly supporter of truth and justice which spells Palestine and Palestinian people and cause. You.So whats teh big deal,there is no Pal state now,there was no Israeli state in modern times before 48! We will have a Pal state soon Insha Allah,Save your breath.

Now that post hurts. But we have returned the favor by letting those "lil" Palestinians live in Judea and Samaria for all these years."""""""""" Aww I didnt mean to hurt anyone.Oh is that right?Arent we so overwhelmed by gratitude for our jewish hosts.Hoe do we thanks you?? Just a reminder here,While you so compassionately let us live in our land and country,it wasnt by choice,Israel did that only because you couldnt throw us out and you guys are still trying.Palestinians are way too courageous people,Why do you think israel has a policy of making Pal life so unbearbale,stressfull and humiliating so they can leave,and make your job easier for you and you still keep a face in International community.

"Its as simple as that" No, it's not that simple. The Palestinians have chosen to only negotiate with terrorism. Arafat walked away from negotiations, and refused even to provide a counter offer, five years ago, and instead freed terrorists in Palestinians prisons and gave them permission to murder Israeli civilians. Issues such as Jerusalem and the fake "right of return" will keep the terrorists bombing and launching rockets at Israel. The Security Fence, thankfully, has reduced terrorist bombings by 80-90 percent and must stay in place until that day that the Palestinians choose peace instead of terrorism.

"Fortunately Haaretz is a liberal newspaper, even though the people on the boards are very often not.Tschüss" If you know of any "Pal" board where I can contribute, please let me know. I would like to express my opinion on one of them.

What do you call a settler? I am a supporter of the Israelis. So do you mean you support those who kill them?

in the Present, in the 21st. Century, the Palestinians have very little. If we live in the world of today, the Palestinians have no country. Without reaching into the past, to speak of a tenuous historical claim, it is the Palestinians not the Israelis who have a dispossesed present and a questionable future. "Maybe the reason why you guys never had a homeland for centuries cuz God knew ...." Does it really work this way. Cause if it does, G-d currently loves the Jews and cares litte for the Muslims.Thnax for your supportive analyses"""""""""""""""""""" Oh well thanks for letting my lil secret out in the open,Ok you win,I am Mona! Strange you speak of palestinian loss and no identity,they have no land no home cuz jews took it away and are keep taking it ever since,in forms of settlements and illegal wall which has taken and destroyed their lands'orchids,gardens. Today they suffer cuz of israel only!They have no name now,but palestine and palestinians always existed,You sir had no homeland for centuries and were nomads and gypsies wandering from land to land,country to country,region to region.Thanks for acknwledging that Pals have a uncertain future,and thanks to you guys,its been that way for way too long. I wont speak for God but i know one thing, those whom God loves the most are tested in faith and courage and patience,that sounds like just what Palestinians are enduring at the moment,not israelis.

Funny you should raise this. It must be becasue the social issues are taking priority as a basis for the platforms of all major parties in the forthcoming elections that you have opened your little eyes. So why are you suggesting that needs the conflict to avoid its social issues?? Now that it seems that security issues are less pressing (thanks to the disengagement and the security fence) attention is definitely being focussed on Israel's social issues. About time too.

"but not the dysfunctionally violent mess of jew-haters who are 2 generations away from any real interest in peace" I agree that it will be about two generations before the Palestinians make any peace gestures towards Israel. The Quassams flying from Gaza, which is now controlled by the Palestinian terrorist groups instead of Israel, illustrate this very clearly.

Al-Gasa, not just 'the resistance is a result of injustice/occupation' but occupation itself is a result of injustice (a war of annihilation started by Egypt, Jordan and Syria). It is important to realize that Israel is not the one who started the chain of injustices. Once you people realize that it will be easy to achieve peace.

Everybody is sick and tired of hearing about the injustices of the occupation? But thats a fact we can't ignore, the only way to not to focus on it is to let go the settlements and move to the green line. Its as simple as that. But on the other hand, if that happens,and we stop discussing the separation fence and the apartheid roads, then we will have to talk about the social issues which the Israeli leaders are not ready to address. I think Israel do need the Palestinians as an enemy and do need the occupation, its the only way for the Israel's survival.

"Why israel did not stop occupation, when there was no terror, before the first Intifada!!" - Because there was no one on the Arab side to negotiate a peace!! End of occupation has always been a goal to negociate. "Land for peace" was always on the table of Israely politicians. Nobody on the Arab side was ready to recognize Israel and grant a peace.

Khalid, You are the Child of Racism, not of anything else. Now I understand why you accuse Jews of Racism, because you are expert! Probably you tell me that 'my tribe' does not either come from here or should be in Israel... For all other readers who are not racist: It does not matter whether your family came from somewhere else before coming to Israel/Palestine. Children of Arab & Turkish occupiers and Children of Israel can all live here, but we must do it together. Calling each other racist names and saying I was here first...means you want to continue fighting. Khalid, I had enough of racism and war and finally want to live in peace with all my neighbors. Musa

why do you put it the other way, if pals stop resistance or terror if you like,you will stop ocuppation. the resistance is a result of injustice, sometimes it gets out of its frames to become terrorist, but the reason is the same..OCCUPATION. Why israel did not stop occupation, when there was no terror, before the first Intifada!! There was another excuses and there was no will to end occupation but on the contrary even Labour party was against palestinian state. Just admit it, Violence was the only way to make many Israelis understand that occupation is wrong, unfortunately!!

We can do something about poverty Gideon but not the dysfunctionally violent mess of jew-haters who are 2 generations away from any real interest in peace. This is the "real tragedy". Wonder why unilateral separation is the main option?

Or are you just an racist who discriminates against Jews but accepts Moslem converts?

Then it is a catch 22 because occupation will not end without a peace settlement. And this settlement should include the right of Israel to exist which in turn should include dropped "right of return" claim. Also it should include dismantling terror infrastructure and stop teaching/preaching hate in schools/moscues/madrases and complete halt of pseudoscientific "historical research".

You cant be serious in your response to Farida! You are saying that Jews are not the Children of Israel, but you are?!? Archeologists and historians, that havent revised for the sake of political correctness, agree that the Jews inhabited the Levant. Jews are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jacob had his name changed by God to Israel. (Genesis 32:28) The Tenach, (which I am sure you will say is a fabrication) calls the inhabitants of the land - Jews (read Nehemiah and Esther). The New Testament calls Jesus repeatedly a Jew (ie - John 4) and mentions Samaritans but no Palestinians or Arabs.

Your Khazaria fantasies are amusing to a point. However, we have both been posting when (several times) another poster (i forget who, I appologize) has explained and provided links to a series of genetic studies that show the Ashkenazic Jews to be more closely related to the Sphephardic Jews than they are to any other people. Next in line, according to genetic closeness, to both groups of Jews, is the Palestinian population. Did you reads the study when it was suggested? I did. It is based upon clinical research that has been verified through peer review. Essentially, what that means is that even you would find the same results were you to perform the same empirical experiments with the genetic samples. Do you have a rebuttal to the conclusions of these studies. Wishing really hard doesn't make something true. I know the rest of your theory (about how "the whole of Israel is stolen by white Europeans") is best supported by the idea that Jews aren't the children of Israel. However, I've been assuming that you are not incapable of acknowledging the truth when it has been proven through the common language of science. Are you prepared to either accept or challange the findings of the studies previously listed?

I don't completely agree with you. Nation can be created artificially and Palestinians is the example. If you single out some members of your family and keep them incarcerated in camps then you create a nation. If you have 22+ UN supporters this process will be even easier.

powerful stuff

Even though the occupation is the result of Israel defending itself from Arab aggression, Israel offered to end it several times. The self serving corrupt Palestinian leaders refused to accept the peace with Israel as recently as in the year 2000 and exploited the situation for vicious propaganda. They were offered about 95% of the disputed territories in a contiguous land, a solution to the refugee problem and an independent Palestinian state, by President Clinton and Prime Minister Barak. The Palestinians and their supporters should place the blame on their own corrupt leadership and not on Israel and than we may have a chance to have a real peace. You really MUST read the booklet BIG LIES on www.frontpagemagazine.com you can download it for free!

i love this Khazar bs...our enemies like you Khalid realise that Jews/Judaism/Hebrew etc are as M.E as Arabs/Islam/Arabic..... so you now are trying to make out that we actually not Jews..... ok, but why did your late beloved thieving leader Arafat often refer to the Israelis/Jews as his cousins ? and you still havent told me one thing that the arab world is doing that you are proud of.

Khaid, you are not a child of Israel. You are an ansestor of Arabs that occupied Palestine in 648. This is an estabished historical fact. Small numbers of Khazar converts did not change the face of Jewish communities already existed in Europe ans Asia. Don't delude yorself with your historians falsifications tryingal to justify creation of artificial nation. Hope that PA leaders won't adopt historiccal falsifications if they mean peace. Otherwise they won't see it.

May I remember you that those here don`t represent all Jews?How`s with dialogue?Why don`t you just try to go into Israeli-Palestinian peace organizations as many other palestinians do?Yahoogroups? Instead of shouting in this way, look for other people, not all people r zealots whether they r Jewish, Muslim or Christian.

Personally, I never liked Yechimovich, despite her popularity, because she gave me an impression that she knows it all, and because of her manner doing that. I repeat - that is my personal impression. Now, that she enters politics, I can hardly expect her manner (and attitude) to somehow change. It can only become worse, as is in politics. History does teach, if we accept it, or if not. Powers that kept other nations at their disposal, sooner or later disintegrated. Endless examples attest to that. Israel in this respect is not exception. Because and if we care for Israel to be, the occupation is, and must be, the central issue. To give it priority lower than any other, is way to end the country and its future. And the nation.

i guess there will never be peace then. Too bad you are on the wrong side of the fence. "occupation is in the minds of those who hate" walid shoebat www.shoebat.com

Jews came back to their homeland because they had been kicked out of it for 2,000 years Khalid, don't you read history at all? And yes the land is stolen goods, but your ancestors were the thieves, not the Jews. You really do sound like a broken record Khalid...play something else, like the truth for example.

"Allah doesn`t say this land belongs to the Jews." Why then, has Israel prevailed against its Arab enemies who have warred with Israel each and every time?

",I know all about it,we just dont acknowledge it in 21st century,We live in Present " in the Present, in the 21st. Century, the Palestinians have very little. If we live in the world of today, the Palestinians have no country. Without reaching into the past, to speak of a tenuous historical claim, it is the Palestinians not the Israelis who have a dispossesed present and a questionable future. "Maybe the reason why you guys never had a homeland for centuries cuz God knew ...." Does it really work this way. Cause if it does, G-d currently loves the Jews and cares litte for the Muslims. Thnax for your supportive analyses.

yes, I agree with you...but Khalid knows also Jews and Israeli Jews from the other side.

Even your beloved Qur'an admits to this truth, a religious text that was built upon the foundation of Torah itself. But I'm glad you have a rich imagination: Try using it for more positive purposes.

he didn`t say most Israelis r settlers, but what indeed true is, that here on the boards most people seem to be settlers or settler supporters. Fortunately Haaretz is a liberal newspaper, even though the people on the boards are very often not.Tschüss

So many lies and distortions in one short post: Jews are not the Children of Israel Jews are children of Khazaria I (Khaled) am the child of Israel You stole an entire country Israel is "stolen goods" And you Sir are delusional. May Allah help you. You need it.

Now that post hurts. But we have returned the favor by letting those "lil" Palestinians live in Judea and Samaria for all these years.

Reading Gideon I am always curious if he and Amira Hass are brother and sister. A close reading of Gideon's ideological polemic shows he is viewing this issue as a "social activist", which generally translates into someone who is disgruntled because they did not get theirs. While in my opinion Peretz is a demagogue given he has been more interested in adavancing certain union constitutencies and benefits than having poor people having upward mobility in Israel, his and Yachimovich's points are well taken. Let us do something about what we can, like poverty in Israel, rather than endlessly trying to deal with the dysfunctionally violent, jew-hating mess that is called the Palestinians. They won't be ready for peace for several decades anyway. Gideon please let us know when you and Amira are blasting off again into make-believe land. Hopefully you can take some of the posters here with you.

all those involved in attacks on civilians, incitement, weapons smuggling, theft of funds etc etc should be brought to justice.....

Hannah, your post gives us some hope. But to ensure that the future peace deal will be sincere and lasting both peoples should realize who turned once 20 minute car trip to Tel Aviv to 2 hours venture. This is Mr. Arafat and his men.

Farida, if this is your real name. Allah doesn't say this land belongs to the Jews. This land belongs to its inhabitants..not to immigrants and converts and "lost tribes" comming from around the world. ordinary thieves steal a car, or some cash, or some food, or a chicken. You stole an entire country. You must give back the stolen goods, or there will never be peace.

Mark, You may be right, but until the occupation is ended, the resources will still go to the ocupation and settlement enterprises. Ending these twin projects must take precedence.

Lets talk reality. 1. there never was a palestine. So called paletinians are citizens of Jordan, Syria , and egypt - Israels first mistake in not negotiating with each country - rather then leting this fantasie of a palestenian people grow. 2. Jerusalem was supposede to be an international city in 48 and was illegaly seized by Jordan-who expelled all Jews. It wasnt untill 67 when Israel liberated the old city that it became open to all people-do we really want to trust the arabs to maintain this. Just visit the intercontinental hotel whos floor isw made of Jewish grave stones if you want to see arab justice. Does Justice mean Arab countries will allow its expelled Jews to return. Does justice mean the aran massacre of chevrons Jews ( even before the Jewish state existed ) - will be investigated. I think the authors thinking is one sided. And unless all crimes are looked out( includeing arab terror attacks) we will get no where

This is not the first time that cowardly Jews have been the cause of suffering because of their fear of offending the gentile. At the time of the terrible holocaust, the United States had the opportunity to blow up the railroad tracks and thereby stop (or at least minimise) the journeys of the trains to the death camps. There were Jews who knew what was happening and put pressure on the US President of the time (Roosevelt) to give the instruction to do so. However, certain Jews came forth and silenced the matter with the argument that it is forbidden to exert pressure on the President of the United States because of the law ?do not offend even a minor nation?. Amongst them there were also Rabbis who had received false information and argued that it is forbidden to conflict with Washington! Huge numbers of Jewish people could have been saved from formidable annihilation had the US blown up the railroad lines. Today those Rabbis have their disciples who influence the conduct of the US and Israel. Shameless they utilise their influence in exactly the same way. When confronted with the argument: ?See what you did in the past. All the fasts you will undertake will not be sufficient to atone for the hundreds of thousands of Jewish People who were murdered in the wake of your influence not to say a word against Washington. At least today take a back seat!? Not only do they take no notice of this argument, but to the contrary, they continue to play the role of ?Your destroyers and obliterators will come forth from amongst yourselves (the Jewish People) [Isaiah 39.17]. We find ourselves at a time of war preparations. There is no time to influence or educate the timid ones to stop being fearful and weak hearted. We cannot even be certain that we will succeed because even to tell him of the results of his previous actions will not help. Therefore what can be expected of him now is ?let them go back home? and resign his responsibilities. There is a clear ruling in the Code of Jewish Law. To our pain, all necessary conditions enumerated there exist now: ?Go out to war fully armed to protect all locations through which it is easy for them to conquer the land. This conduct is demanded where the danger is no more than a faint possibility, certainly in our situation of certain threat to life. There are Jews today, certainly one Jew, who is afraid of the nations. He is used to receive from them honours and has come to the conclusion that his ultimate state of perfection in this world is that they should say of him that he is a good man. For this he is prepared to endanger the Jewish People. Now is not the time to educate him since every moment that the borders are not being settled the Jewish people are being endangered G-d Save us! It is possible to settle the borders in a very short time, in a moment. The situation demands this action. The army is prepared to move in yet he won?t permit this because of his fear. He must resign! Whoever is concerned for the life of even one Jew must do all in his power that all borders be settled. By not doing so, this is interpreted by the world community as Israel?s fear. The pressure on handing over Hebron, the Old City of Jerusalem, and all of the territories will be averted and Israel will show the world that she is not intimidated and many Jewish lives will be saved. Each moment those who are able to utilise their influence that the borders being settled and do not do so shoulder the responsibility! (From the farbrengen Motzoi Shabbos Parshas Bechukosai 1978)

Khalid, Not all Jews and certainly, not all Israelis are what you experience in Hebron. Most want an end to the occupation and a reasonable and equitable settlement. Mark BTW - Based on the writing style and content of the message, I suspect somebody has coopted Ibrahim's identity. He's always been a reasoned and forceful advocate for an end of the occupation and just settlement.

Pace You are right and on the button! We don't need to feel about arab sensitivities,it our senses that are of great importance and should be our duty to see that we care enough to empower all aspects of our institutions,education, nourishment,health etc. The rest is quite well advanced and we don't need anyone's help in that department! Good Post Pace 306 S

"The term palestinian is widely used and accepted" - It is widely used and accepted and applies to Arabs living in historic Palestine. Does that make them a distinct nation? Does that make them different from Arabs living in Jordan, Syria or Egypt. What the difference is? Is it ethnic cultural or lingual?

Khalid remember that whoever this Joshua is he has been brainwashed like the rest of us and the few who have realized the truth have a hard time figuring what to do with it. Suicide? In 48, the Palestinians who left did not expect the Jews to win even though Allah himself recognizes that this land was given to the Jews.

I am not sure how many Palestinians you have actually met, but during the weeks I spent in Jerusalem and the West Bank last August/September I did not meet even ONE Palestinian that wanted to 'burn down the Western industrial democracy...' Instead I met families that were trying to get their children into good schools, women lamenting that they could no longer travel to Tel Aviv to go shopping or to Jerusalem to go to the family church as it is too difficult to get a pass to get through the checkpoint just for Sunday church. I met people that live in Bethlehem/Beit Sahur that work in Ramallah - what was once a 20 minute car trip, now takes 2+ hours and three changes in shared taxis. What I noticed in meeting both Palestinians and Israelis (Jews and Arabs) was the desire for peace. Hopefully the upcoming elections in both countries will see governments elected that will work together towards that end.

Hi Nachman Do you know that when people return to make a journey to the various countries like: Poland for instance and they still find their apartments-houses,etc,occupied by the people who took over their belongings and everything else,they see everything and recognize it all because not much had changed,apart froma few bits and pieces.So,the conclusion is clear. They have appropriated all the things from the Jews that were dispossessed after the murders. This too applies to the Jews from all the Arab lands that left only with what was on their backs and left property,money businesses ALL! They must have restitutions,especially from the Arab side,and about time this was resolved! Good Post and to the POINT Bravo! S

What are zealots? Who are the zealots you are refering to? Are you happy with all Palestinains being called terrorists? Patriotic Israelis are just that - patriotic Israelis. Although you claim to be an intellectual, I find you very small minded and limited in your thinking. It comes through quite clearly in your views. You are not in a position for condescending name calling. If you are talking about fanatics ... well let's not go down that route as you will be found sorely wanting in that area. You should practice what you preach. You are no humanitarian.

Harold has stated all the historical facts that Arab history books don't have in them. You should listen to him Khalid and all others like, wake up and smell the truth, you may not like it but - tough!! And thank you Harold.

'palestinian' crimes against Israel are too numerous to mention. There arent enough days in the year to investigate all of them. VIVA ISRAEL

come on guys. Do you want me to call you: "German" Get a history book, look at the history of Germany and Bismarck The term palestinian is widely used and accepted; may I say "USA citizens": you are no folk

Thanks, friend. Don't worry about me. I am too strong and too secure in my belief to be shaken by these bankrupt zealots. Thanks again.

Maybe next time I should call you to teach me what I should be saying and what I shouldn't..!

Michael N Michael with NO ADDRESS.METHINKS ONE WONDERS WHY? That is the question. You say and find Levy's article brilliant as never before. Odd that,since he is constant in his meanderings on the numerous articles he writes. You must have been away one assumes, for you to have missed them,OH DEARY ME! Oh well nevermind this time it should cheer you up no end. While I'm at it I reponded to your post yesterday and I must have been too late for it to be put out. I will reiterate what I said (although it is not applicable to today's subject). There you were making stupid assumtions of our antecedents, by that I mean us Jews being decendants of the mythical Khazars,etc,etc.You must have been reading the spurious posts by Mr.Khalid for sure. But just forget this silly notion, ain't true. Also,that the PLO Arabs are the true Palestinians connecting them to the Caanites etc,etc.WRONG THERE BOY,NEVER MORE WRONG! The original true Palestinians WERE/ARE THE JEWS.Just thought I'd put you in the picture once and for all. Nothing further to impart Goodbye S

Since the Arabs illegally invaded Israel in 648 CE and attempted, unsuccessfully to finish the ethnic cleansing that the Romans started, we have always had their apologists who wish to wipe out the Jews. e.g. Up to the 18th century Gaza was majority Jewish until cleansed by arabs in front of Napolean's advance. Hevron was not only a majority but had continuity of Jewish life until in 1920 the last jews, all families with children, were tortured and murdered by their arab neighbours, even the main doctor of the central district who was killed by his so-called arab friends. The lies continued in the illegal settlement by Tukey of Bosnian muslims in Israel in the 19th centru and the mass immigrantion to find jobs in the early 20th. Until the arabs and others who are illegally occupying Israel and torturing its rightful occupants leave, there will be no peace. To pretent that the oppression is happening the other way roung is the hight of both cheek and anti-semitism.

David, I would agree with you before Camp David 2000. After that it became clear for me that Arabs do not agree for the conditions you put in #50. Read MEOW~~ #33.

Khalid About our Jerusalem. You know it,Sharon knows it,I DEFINITELY KNOW IT=IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN! Get it into your concrete head,ain't going to happen. You want wars,we'll give you wars and once again beat the hell out of you all. And what on earth does Al Quds mean.It Was never ever mentioned in the Quran. Pure fantasy on you and yours. S

Hello Gaza boy You are correct.Once things settle down in an acceptable way,(THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT YOU WILL GET EVERYTHING,AND ALL WILL BE HUNKY-DORRY)of course.The journalists will be out on their ears and with no jobs.They can start by cleaning their desks now! It will not be too long I think before this may,I SAY MAY,happen sooner than later. And good luck to them eh eh eh eh. S

There is much more to the State of Israel than that it imposes a "beligerant occupation (Israeli High Court)" on the West Bank. It must be the State of Israel that prospers, as jobs and housing must be provided not only for more of those now residing there, but for settlers evacuated from the occupied land. The State has a generally recognized border, that happens to divide Jerusalem and deligitimize the settlement enterprise in general. There can be no peace until the Land of Cana'an is divided on that border.

Mr.G.Levy You have repeated the word "Occupation" twelve times if not more! Are you trying to drum it into our thick heads perhaps,to justify your assumptions in order to simplify this tricky matter? Perhaps wrongly you surmise that the Israeli public agrees with your premise. I say not at all. They need security first and foremost, but not at any price. Easy for you to advocate at random certain obligations that the Government should pursue-like stopping the "targeted assassinations" as an example.This is an essential objective by the government and the IDF to protect and defend our civilian population and must be maintained always. I say think carefully before you make such bland arguments which would not help in the long run. S

You say that most Israelis are settlers. Could you please explain and give details? Which Israelis are settlers and which are not?

Shalom Freedman's statement that Ha'aretz (Schoken) has caused more damage to Israel's image in the world than anyone by having 90% of the paper's articles to be written written by Leftists is rediculous at the least. First, Ha'aretz is an avowed liberal ,that is, free thinking paper and therefore it has a liberal agenda. Other papers with a greater readership and differing points of views push their agendas all the same. Second, Freedman does not suggest that Ha'aretz is wrong on the facts which are easily verifiable. He has a problem with the interpretation of the facts and Ha'aretz gives him plenty opportunity to voice his displeasure in the talkbacks. Third, Freedman does not tell us precisely how does Ha'aretz damages Israel's image when the Israeli government's well oiled and inventive propaganda/spin machine is working overtime. Fourth, Freedman proposes to shoot the messanger absent any proof that the message is wrong. Well, the truth will make you free!

The Passover massacre,the Maalot massacre of children,the Munich massacre of Israeli Olympic athletes,the hijackings and subsequent murders are just a few examples of issues that must be solved. These are crimes against humanity and would be treated as such if committed by any group not as "fashionable" as the Palestinians. The PA must show itself responsible in tackling their terrorists.Saying they do not want civil war is a blank cheque for doing nothing.

Howdy Lou; Although the Palestinian militants managed to cause a lot of trouble during the first three years of the al-Aqsa Intifada, they have also been losing at a rate of 3.5 to 1. Furthermore, with the construction of the security barrier which should be about half-completed by now, the Palestinian militants' and terrorists' ability to strike at Israel has statistically dropped down to less than 10% of what it used to be and falling as the fence gets longer and longer. Face it, the Palestinian military/terrorist option has fizzled out. The only thing that the Palestinian militants can do is to fire those homemade, glorified bottle rockets over the fence which couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. A recent report stated that 80% of all Qassams fired land on Palestinian territory and out of thousands which have been launched, only half-a-dozen Israelis have been killed by them. If that's your idea of putting up a "good fight", then I don't want to be on your side. And then you start to rattle the Iranian nuclear saber. Well, that's a long way off and if push comes to shove it will be Iran which is glowing in the dark not Israel curtesy of Uncle Sam.

It is true that Israel has not called for the destruction of any nation but they have denied the existence of the Palestinian people and their right to nationhood. Look, the reality is that both Palestinians and Israelis have erred in the past. Past transgressions, however, do not excuse future conduct. And the only reasonable approach to peace is an Israeli evacuation from occupied land with possible teritorial exchanges, a division of Jerusalem or joint administration, and a functional dismissal of the Palestinian right of return to Israel. Any talk of less is foolishness. This solution will enable both peoples to go about the business of taking care of huge social problems that plague their societies.

Lou Medel: "Moshe, Get real. The occupation will never end unless the Palestinians fight for their rights. Their crude homemade weaponry is enough to give Nuclear Israel a good fight. Wait until parity in the ME is reached. Then Justice will finally prevail or the land will glow." I find your remarks laughable. A small nation, Israel, is constantly subjected to threats from a host of larger Middle Eastern nations--in which their leaders explicitly call for Israel's obliteration--and you have the perversity to talk about Middle Eastern justice? Despite Israel's military advantage, it has never called for the destruction of any nation--and that alone speaks volumes.

since we need more support, i think it would be a good idea to start telling the truth. Your posts are distorted or/and outright lies.

Amos Schocken has done more damage to the image of Israel in the world than any other Israeli.

Meow: "...Plz dont start with holyland belonging to jews,I know all about it,we just dont acknowledge it in 21st century,We live in Present not 3,000 years ago." If you really live in the present, the 21st century, and give no weight to history, then you must accept that the Jewish State of Israel exists now. Presently, there is no Palestine. That is, if you want to give no weight to history; but if you do, then you open up that Pandora's box, which states clearly that Israel, as a Jewish state, has existed before (the original Roman province of Palestine was the province of the Jews, therefore you usurp the name) and has the right to exist now, as a Jewish state. You are very conveniently selective in your stand.

The lying zealots attack you and you still endure. I admire you. Your friend, Lou

I agree! the criminal occupation by Arabs of Jewish land must end.Stop being politicaly correct and start being Biblicaly correct

Dear Steven, I appreciated your intelligent response to Gideon Levy's article, re: Yachimovic... It is difficult to image ten of thousands of settlers relocating west of the "fence", in the West Bank... Sort of an Aliyah within an aliyah, or is it a "yared", very confusing to say the least... So, yes, I suppose it means, once again,Israel has to get its act together, take better care of the disadvantaged in its midst, so as to make room for the settlers who have yet to return, what a monumental task that will take this coming election platform, and then the next one after that...Basically, it is a restructuring, like the down-sizing of the '90's...

Moshe, Get real. The occupation will never end unless the Palestinians fight for their rights. Their crude homemade weaponry is enough to give Nuclear Israel a good fight. Wait until parity in the ME is reached. Then Justice will finally prevail or the land will glow.

We all finally agree that the arab occupation of Israel must end. Shes right - stop focusing on the arab menace and worry about the health and prosperity of Israel. The constant left bashing of Israel - its all Israels fault - is old, tired, untrue but most of all usless. Worry about Israels poor not the misplaced arab "sensativities", worry about Jewish holy sites not arab trees, worry about Israels future - becuase you can be damn sure the Arabs arent worrying about it.

"Subjugating another people must be debilitating and corrupting to any free people." And the PA and the terror groups know it and for over a decade have been doing all they can to prevent an end to the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank because they want more than that.

"There is no way to achieve social justice in an occupying society. "The real tragedy" of Israeli society is the occupation." - Gideon Levy Subjugating another people must be debilitating and corrupting to any free people. No nation shows this more than Israel.

If you really want to know about the myth of the occupation you MUST read the article at www.frontpagemagazine.com you will see a well documented booklet which you will be able to download for free. It is called BIG LIES. Just click on the white booklet and you will thank the author. Peace starts by understanding facts.

You blame Israel for all of your problems. You (the arab world) had a chance of peace in 1947. You were greedy and lost. Don't blame your failures on others. Have you heard of the saying " If you can't do the time, don't do the crime....' STOP complaining and START learning to live like civilised human beings..... life is too short...

It is such nonsense to read about the 'occupation'. And the comparring the Jews to the Nazis. The reality is that the Arabs durring the holocaust supported hitler and were occupying Jewish land in Israel. The Jews returned to Israel and accepted partition and the Arabs rejected it. The land was divided with the majority going to the Arabs for an Arab State and the smaller portion for a Jewish State. The remaining Arabs in the Jewish State should of been transfered to the Arab state. This should still be done in order to bring greater stability and truth to the region. We Jews know the deep hatred that the Arabs have for us. Any retreat from land is not seen as a move for peoce but the opposite. Israel must make a unalateral seperation from the Arabs in the spirit of the partition with secure borders taking into account Jewish religious and historical and ecconomical needs. Israel and Jordan was and still is the two state solution.

Howdy Prince; Ending the occupation is not like turning off a light switch. There's a host of things that need to be agreed to first like where the border is, the refugee problem, the status of East Jerusalem, water rights, and the degree of sovereignty of the futuristic State of Palalestine (i.e., will it be a demilitarized state or one which can have its own army, navy, and air force?)

you state :"it is absolutely stupid to ask Palestinians to do anything until the occupation ends" Israelis don't ask Palestinians to do something, they ask them NOT TO DO, not to do terrorism against civilians like sending blind rockets or in-human bombers. When all palestinians factions commit themselves NOT TO DO, you'll see that the occupation will end very fast.

You would do great under arab rule,It always was arab land,Plz dont start with holyland belonging to jews,I know all about it,we just dont acknowledge it in 21st century,We live in Present not 3,000 years ago. just be thankful we had let you live here as our lil minoritiy!Maybe the reason why you guys never had a homeland for centuries cuz God knew what a sham you will make of the place you will eventually get. Better keep wandering,MY HOME IS NOT YOURS!

I agree. And I have had many Arab and Muslim friends in the past, but became increasingly uncomfortable the more they excused the violence Palestinians perpetrated against innocent Israeli civilians--the elderly, women, and children...families doing nothing more than celebrating a holiday dinner, or people simply eating at a restaurant. Neither do I feel comfortable with those who make excuses for Hamas or Hizbollah, both of which still call for Israel's destruction. And then they would claim that all they want is peace in the Middle East. On what terms and at whose expense? Truly hypocrisy.

Terrorism against civilians (like in-human bombers) is not resistance.

The only time thet jerusalem was not Jewish was 19 years from 1948-1967 when the Jordanians threw killed or threw out the Jewish rsidents of the Old City, Hebron, etc. Before 1967 East Jerusalem was the backwater of Arab cities and no religious or political leader ever came to pray in the Al Aksa mosque. East Jerusalem took on renewed meaning for you as soon as Israel captured it (in a defensive war, may I remind you) - suddenly it became a crucial issue. Israel was fair enough to place your holy sites in your hands and you have since, especially in the last 15 years, have slowly been destroying evidence of Jewish history there. There is no claim you have on East Jerusalem than is srtonger than historical Jewish claim. If you put that obstacle in the way of a final peace agreement then for sure I would know that your desire for peace is not genuine. Your desire is for Israel and that will be your downfall. Your allusions to the Nazi era when talking about Israel and Jews has not gone unnoticed. It matters not that you are participating in this list. What matters is that you have not heard a word anyone has said. You are entrenched in you mindset and are willing to forego any chance of peace to defend it (your mindset). There is not a single reason in this world for Jerusalem to be the Capital of Palestine other than your wish to perpetuate the conflict. Apparently this suits your interests far more than peace does.

The end of th occupation is indeed a prerequisite for a return to normalcy in Israel. It appears that the agenda of Amir Peretz addresses this by noting that the growing economic despiar in Israel is inextricably related to the huge expenditures on maintaining colonialist settlements. Peretz also introduces a new mindset into the Israeli political landscape by noting that the occupation is not only bad strategically but is immoral. Social and economic justice are not only good for Israeli politically, they are ethical imperatives as well.

Hey why don't you start a campaign to end occupation of Jewish apartments, property etc. in all of Europe when the rightful Jewish belongers were rounded up and sent to the death camps and where 6 million such Jews were slaughtered. That will keep you busy for a while. After all you have millions of Europeans who occupy same above apartments, property etc.

Oh well Khalid, you're not getting Jerusalem, you know it, I know it...the whole world knows it...though is unwilling to see it. And I'm not a Zionist, I'm a realist. And if continued violence is the only to keep Jerusalem under Israeli control then so be it, I for one would come and fight for Israel. You will come off worst in the end and you know it. Be thankful that you're going to get a state at all Khalid.

I lived the first 25 years of my life in South Africa and most of the other 38 in Canada. During the days of apartheid I did not want to have anything to do socially with a white person who had NOT openly opposed apartheid. There wre opporutnities to interact with Whites. As a doctor in Toronto I work with many Jewish colleagues and get along very well at work. However I feel the same when it comes to have personal social interaction. I can only socially interact with those few who had the courage to recognise the harm done by Zionism to the Palestinians. I still hear that "Israel was a land without people". What lies and hypocricy. Living in a cocoon can distorts ones entire existence. Farouk Dindar

As in his usual way , Gideon has had another vision and feels compel to give " sermon from the Mountain Top",Gideon would like you to believe that his main motivation in urging (Journalist?) the Politicians to behave according to his Karma is the good of the country" , and that of the people. Thus, if we were just reading his current article in discussion, we would come to the conclusion that the guy belongs to a humanist-reformist tradition, unicombred of any ideology, the form of Prud'hom and the great social reformist. However, since we know his track record, and his real motives, we cannot allow ourselves to read his writing, justifiably so, without suspecting that the guy is full of hot air. He has no legitimacy to speak on behalf of the readership of Haaretz (after all , is he not preaching to the Choir, no?!),or to any other audience. Gideon never understood the pure economics impulses of what has and is transpiring in the interactions in Israel by allowing workers to participate in the production and dignity of providing their families, for the education of their children, by making possible for them( European, Romanian, Yugoslav, who rush to come here, as well as allowing Palistinians whose earnings allow them to live a comfortable and dignify productive lives in their own environment). Look at the Chineese and Indian miracles..Had we not read enough of anti Israeli venoms from the pen of Gideon, we would give some credance to his comments. But, we all are aware for his biases, and inflexible temperament to see everything right on the other side and a whole lot of wrongs on the Israeli side. He should be decent to his"profession" and try and describe the reality as it is on the surface, and not get to the "Mountain Top", and becomes delirious.

This is one of the best articles by Gideon Levy, ever. He states succintly the obvious and hushed hushed. That the occupation and mal treatment of the Paestinians is Israel's undoing. He reiterates the plain truth Amira Hass has clearly pointed to: Left or right- deep down most Israelis are settlers!

If "our people" are allergic to truth, Khalil, I guess the allergy is genetic- and extends to our Semetic cousins, as the examples below will amply demonstrate. Come on, Khalil - let's keep the focus on people - and not "peoples", yours or ours! 'The Al-Buraq Wall [Western Wall] and its plaza are a Muslim religious property ? [It is] part if the Al Aqsa Mosque. The Jews have no relation to it' (Arafat-appointed Mufti of Jerusalem, Al Ayyam [PA newspaper], November 22, 1997). "There is not a single stone in Palestine that proves the [historical] Jewish existence [in the land]." [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 15 October 2000] '[The Holocaust] is a forged claim by the Zionists regarding the alleged acts of slaughter perpetrated against the Jews' (PA newspaper, Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, Sept. 3, 1997).

Gideon Levy hits the nail on the head! The brutal occupation, prolonged by the sick ideology of the messianic settlers, is the source of evil and misery for Israelis (and obviously much more so for Palestinians). I would add to his arguments that it is absolutely stupid to ask Palestinians to do anything until the occupation ends. I recently saw the movie 'Paradise Now'(very insightful) and the main thought I was left with was what a waste the occupation has made of the lives of so many young Palestinians and Israelis!

"But to demand that Israel give up its capital is just silly and that isn`t even on the negotiating table: This won't work Steven, Israel must give back East Jerusalem for peace. There can be no Palestinian state without al-Qods, you know it, I know it, Sharon knows it...the whole world knows it.

Joshua..you are occupier and land thief, and as such you must resort to lies and more lies to obfuscate truth and reality. Thus you claimed the Palestinians didn't exist, that they left, not expelled by you, that your sinister occupation was the most benevolent occupation in history...do I have to remind you of your dishonorable list of lies...it is too long and too ugly. You are a strange people..it seems you are allergic to truth.

Once occupation comes to an end she may lose her jop and there will be no much work to do in the journal. These days the journalists are the most happy one in their job because of so many news about the israeli palestinian conflicts but it will be over soon and nothing will be left to do for jounalists.

"Out of sight and out of mind Khalid"? Well that's what the mythical "Palestinian" people were before 1948 because nobody ha ever heard of one. I do hope that Israel gives the PA a demilitarized state with Ramallah as its capital if only to make the lives of millions of people easier. But to demand that Israel give up its capital is just silly and that isn't even on the negotiating table.

Israel is not occupying Arab land. On the contrary, the Arabs want to occupy the Israelis' country. Why didn't the Arabs accepted the 1947 partition and why did they attack Israel the very moment it was proclaimed? And why didn't they accept what was offered to them so many times? Arab leaders don't care about their own people but just about the destruction of Israel.

Levy, I think, puts the cart before the horse. Of course Israel should withdraw from Yehuda and Shomron but this needs to be done in an orderly and well thought out fashion, and not just from a security standpoint. Withdrawing from the territories will cause a huge split in the nation (not just geographically) and one way to ensure this move goes as smoothly as possible is to make sure we have the economic and social infrastructure in place to cope with a huge relocation of people. We've seen the problems the residents of Gaza are facing and (as much as a lot of this is self-imposed because they refused to face up to reality) we should try to make sure this isn't repeated with settlers who live east of the fence. It's much better to use the money that currently goes towards isolated settlements in order to devleop the Negev and Galilee and to narrow the gaps in society so that there will be somewhere for the settlers to move to and something worthwhile for them to do when they arrive back over the green line. So, Israel must first focus on social issues precisely in order to be able to withdraw from the territories. I think the point that Shelly Yachimovich is making is that for far too long Israel has ignored the social gulf because we were preoccupied (no pun intended) with the situation in the territories and Shimon Peres glorious vision of the "new middle east" where peace and co-operation would lead to economic growth. I don't think she is suggesting that we ignore the Palestinians, simply that we can no longer ignore the social problems that exist in Israel. I believe she (and by extension Amir Peretz) is right.

What the author refers to as "piggish capitalism" is a worldwide phenomenon, having nothing to do with Israeli-Palestinian relations. Palestinians want no more, and no less, than to burn down the Western industrial democracy in their midst, and have UNWRA support them at a higher level than at present. This ambivalence about the West--- the craving for every kind of manufactured goods, and the hatred of the societies that produce them--- was first identified by VS Naipaul, and is an Arab problem in general.

1) Until Israel stops doing things which SHOULD be criticized, of course people will criticize it. What's wrong with that? 2) If it were not for the Palestinian resistance to the occupation, the occupation would never end. Israel only makes steps like moving out of Gaza, agreeing to a Palestiian state, etc., because it is forced to.

Who lived on the land before moses walked out of the desert with the chosen people. Shouldnt we ask them if we can live there. We need to stop attacking israel and show her we are behind her as she struggles to do the right thing. It is not easy positive encouragement works better than hatred.

civilized people keep buying their lies only because of gas, arab molsems as "palestinians"? wake up! once arabs occupied spain but it never was arabs' land, once Holyland was under arab occupation but it never was arabs' land either. end the occupation, yes, end the arab moslem occupation now.

You are fantasizing again, Khalid. Or, just in complete denial of history. It is in fact, a good portion of Arab history to be exact. Who actually, occupied the Palestinians? I believe it was Jordan and Egypt. You make the claim that if the so-called occupation ends, so will terrorism. The facts, suggest otherwise. Before, the Arab nations attacked Israel; and lost Gaza and the West Bank as its launching pad, the PLO was already conducting terrorist attacks inside of Israel proper. Interesting, that you dont mention this. Not the least bit surprised. This is you at your best, lie, continue to lie, omit more facts, rewrite history, and lie some more.

The junta that runs israel doesn't care. they don't care about the occupation. they don't care about the Palestinians. they don't care about the harm done to israel's image. they don't care about the israelis killed as a result of the occupation. they don't care about the israelis impoverished and disadvantaged as a result of the cost of the occupation. they don't care what Gideon Levy writes. All they care about is retaining power and continuing the dispossession of the Palestinians. The two go hand-in-hand.

No worker from either the Palestinian Authority nor from any land have ever been forced to come to Israel for work. The Palestinians historically relied on Israel for a gret deal of their income and the recent intifada proved a double edged sword for them (the Palestinians) because not only where they losing the intifada they were also being barred from entering Israel. If peace should ever return where Israelis feel safe then the Palestinians should return and find work the Migrant workers have taken over from the Palestinians and they have bought with them seperate problems - the greatest being they dont want to return to their own lands i am no bleeding heart liberal and have no problem with legal migrant workers going about their lives - as soon though as their status changes from legal to illegal i have no problems with the arrests and deportations finally the palestinians come to israel every day and go every night - it is with these people (the palestinians) we must find our work force as they are our neighbours fianlly if the palestinians are real about peace and if abbas wants peace,let him rule his people and show he is serious. the idea that the occupation is a moral issue is tright of the first order it is a necessary evil. soon though this will change as sharon takes the various unilateral measures to give the palestinians their dreamed of peace bm

for whatever you will not like Israel do. The occupation will end. It could have end a long time ago if the palestinians had stop terrorism, which has far less justification than an occupation that began after agressive arab states wanted to wip Israel from the map (you certainly forgot that reason). Am I wrong if I bet you will be among all the others that criticize Israel for their own pleasure?

....some of it was already.....

This editorialist, who obviously makes his fortune trying to convince everyone that they are saps for working hard to make a living when he, Mr. levy, obviously does not. Same in The USA, the wealthy "liberal", who is a vegetarian environmentalist who also just happens to own a burger franchise, pays minimum wage, hires illegals who will discriminate against any legal hire to protect their jobs with management looking the other way. At the same time serves to increase the profits of Arabia. Who will say, oh, we are for peace, PEACE NOW. Maybe if Israeli Employers were forced to pay liveable wages and Israelis could be hired without discrimination from illegal worker mafias, we could finally get the ox cart out of the ditch.

End of Palestinian Terrorism + Recognition of a Jewish State of Israel = End of Occupation.

She is typical and characteristic of the Israeli Jewish society...which strives to keep the Palestinians out of sight and out of mind....for one simple reason: Israelis don't like to be reminded of what they have done to Palestinians just as Germans don't like to be reminded of what they had done to the Jews. She thinks there are more important problems than ending the occupation? Well, I can't think of anything more important, neither in the Middle East nor in the world. After all the evil occupation is the mother of all problems, including the problem of terror. Indeed, it would be impossible to imagine a solution of the terror problem in the world without first ending the Israeli occupation of Palestine. Even some within the Israeli right camp are coming to terms with this reality.

As unpleasant as it may be for israelis and israel's supporters who wish that it would disappear as a story, the occupation is the one issue that defines israel. Attempts to portray israel as a civilised, cultured, sophisticated and advanced society will always be in vain as long as israel's occupation continues and israel treats the Palestinians as less than human. If it wanted, it could end the occupation tomorrow and concentrate on getting its own house in order. It chooses not to. Gideon Levy is to be commended for continuing to portray the evils of israel's subjugation and dispossession of the Palestinians. How much easier it would be for him to give up his 'agenda'. It's a great pity that there are not many more writers with his courage.

Levy and Yachimovich are birds of a feather. Under the guise of being journalists, they attempt to advance a very clear agenda. They are not professionals. Professionals attempt to present an unbiased view. They are apparatchiks. They shouldn't ever have been employed by the media. But then again, the media is all apparatchiks. Yachimovich, like Sarid and others of their ilk simply use the media as a springboard into politics in order to advance their skewed views.

Levy has a point, but it's really a question of emphasis. Of course Yachimovich wants to end the occupation. And of course she understands the disastrous impact it's had on Israeli society. But she is correct in finally putting Israel's social ills at the forefront of the public debate. For too long they've been brushed under the security rug.