Before this Mideast moment slips away

Mark, the Indians gave up, they decided to stop fighting knowing full well, that the Indians would simply cease to exist. We are also discussing ceding land on the North American continent. Canada today is quite capable of giving the Native People's land the size of Israel times ten, without feeling it. But the Indians did not settle for peace only if they were to receive Washinton DC or Montreal. They settled for life. We here are scrapping over a very small piece of land, we are not only facing the Palestinians but have fought three wars against over seven Arab states at one time. The Indians came to accept the existence of the American man, I fear the Moslem world still feels that the loss of Palestine is a great Humiliation. and honour and humiliation are enormous motivating factors in this part of the world. may there be peace, it would be nice, but the question is far larger than occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

We give aid to the Palestinians which friggen blows my mind. How many countries do you know of that actually hand over money to another country that hates them? I'd love to stay out of the Palestinian affairs, but much of the world demands that the Americans once again solve the problems of another country. People like you only appreciate the United States when your hand is out. If you were truly interested in peace between the Israelies and the Palestinians, you'd demand that the UN get involved. I guess the UN's too busy these days trying to worm themselves out of the food for oil scandal.

"Show the world that Israel can be a democracy." What planet are you on? Israel IS a democracy. The people of Israel don't always think alike and they do practice free speech....how many Palestinians do you know who go public should they disagree with the Palestinian leaders? I'll tell ya...none...Palestinians will kill their fellow Palestinians if they even suspect that they are traitors. I think it's time the Palestinians start proving to the world that they can control the murdering militant....the road to peace is just as much of a burden to the Palestinians as it is to the Israelies.

I'll do you one better....let's free Saddam and hand him over the entire country of Kuwait to own and rule. According to some, appeasing cowards like these is the way to handle terrorism. We're going to kill the terrorists with kindness even if it kills us.

Dear Everyone, I've read almost all the responses here. I'd like to make a few clarifications as I am quite sure that I don't have the answers to this very complicated, very long lived problem. 1. Bush and his colleagues should not be allowed to help with any elections. Despite what the American mass media reports, there is considerable doubt about the legitimacy of the 2000 and the 2004 elections. In Texas, it is clear that the electronic voting machines (which had no paper printouts or method for audit) were defaulted to Bush. Even after being changed back to Kerry numerous times, they kept showing Bush and Cheney as the victors. Additionally, a group of programmers came forward and told the FBI that they were paid to hack the election. There are lawsuits pending everywhere. The problem with fixing elections is that eventually the people figure it out and they become extremely angry. 2. It is impossible to have peace without acknowledging that killing the opposition will not bring back the dead or ease the pain of loss. Killing begets more killing. It is a simple and inescapable fact. The only way that it can create any sort of surcease is if one side obliterates the other and that is not possible for a number of reasons which I won't go into. 3. Both sides have to begin to see each other as HUMAN not things, not numbers, not objects, but people with the potential for good and evil. 4. Justifying behavior by pointing to similar behavior in other countries is an exercise in regressionism. Yes, there are racist behaviors everywhere. That does not make them correct or, more importantly, efficacious in bringing humanity to a higher level of being. 5. It seems to me that we have regressed. Everyone in the world is acting like they did in the 1700s and 1800s than the civilized beings that should exist in the 21st century. I don't see a lot of difference between the outlaws and gunslingers in the Wild West and what I see with the governments of today. The only difference is the size of the "guns." At least Colts of bygone eras didn't leave radioactive residue that continues to destroy, damage and kill. 6. Rather than dismissing an opinion as Anti-Arab or Anti-Semite and dismissing it out of hand, it is better to glean the valid points that each one contains. Underneath all the hatred and anger, there are some truths. 7. Start at the beginning: Do Arabs and Isrealis treat each other unfairly? Why? What is the basis for their anger? What are the essential disbutes? What does each side REALLY want? What is a workable solution that both sides could live with forever? Where does this process have to start? 8. Acknowledge the wrongs on all parts. 9. Learn not to react negatively if forgiveness is not possible. Remember not every Israeli or every Arab had the same feelings and prejudice as those who killed one's loved ones, so learn to view everyone as an individual. 10. Peace is made on a case by case basis, but it is began by broad rules of engagement. 11. Use only those with no vested interest as peace brokers.

Well said friend.

mordecai, i think your facts need checking ?????? native americans are citizens by treaty only and us citizens are not legally allowed on reservations!!!!!!! arabs known as "palestinians" are in fact jordanian and egyptian citizens or members of the pa self governing sectors. arabs known as israeli are citizens of israel. negros in the south have always been us citzens but until 50 years ago had no rights. the mule must be a relation of yours

johanes , rice will say tony made a fool of himself talking to sinn fein aka as ira!

Please enlighten me Motty, what does German blood money mean? Do you mean by that a shipment of plasma or red bills? It's somewhat unclear so please explain.

Dutch even the Koran recognises the Jewish ownership of Israel see below. It even calls the Jews 'the chidren of ISRAEL!' [5.20] And when Musa said to his people: O my people! remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations. [5.21] O my people! enter the holy land which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers. [5.12] And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; and Allah said: Surely I am with you; if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My apostles and asslst them and offer to Allah a goodly gift, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds, and I will most certainly cause you to enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, but whoever disbelieves from among you after that, he indeed shall lose the right way. [20.80] O children of Israel! indeed We delivered you from your enemy, and We made a covenant with you on the blessed side of the mountain, and We sent to you the manna and the quails. [7.137] And We made the people who were deemed weak to inherit the eastern lands and the western ones which We had blessed; and the good word of your Lord was fulfilled in the children of Israel because they bore up (sufferings) patiently; and We utterly destroyed what Firon and his people had wrought and what they built. [10.93] And certainly We lodged the children of Israel in a goodly abode and We provided them with good things; but they did not disagree until the knowledge had come to them; surely your Lord will judge between them on the resurrection day concerning that in which they disagreed. [10.94] But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers. [17.104] And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment. [2.122] O children of Israel, call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations. http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/index.html

I hope that USA and Israel will open takes with Hamas in order to have real peace in the area, because denying Hamas will not give Isael peace so please just sit down and speak, give them a chance, I am sure you will reach a point with them and just that is good. Go back to history nothing can be solved by act and react.

Hi Dutch, I am surprised you can be so ignorant. The dutch still occupy some islands in the Caribbean and fail to integrate minorities in their own society. Is that what you call an open society? Not understanding why there should be one jewish state disqualifies you from the entire discussion. Maurits

Ibrahim, I was referring to history in my message #176. Specifically the historical facts which led to the so called Six Days war from June 1967. I will mention the issues point by point and submit them to your approval or rejection: 1/In early June 1967 the West Bank,East Jerusalem and Gaza strip were under Arab rule.The W/B&AL QUDS under Jordanian rule and Gaza under Egyptian rule.Correct or False? 2/Although under Arab rule the two Arab countries OCCUPYING these Palestinian territories did not recognize and/or allow the establishment of a Palestinian state or at least a form of self rule for these Palestinian territories.Refugees living in these Palestinian territories [ most of them basically inside their own country] as well as those living deep inside Egypt Jordan and many other Arab countries were left to fend for themselves and live in terrible poverty and squalor with absolutely no rights at all in their own country. Correct or False? 3/In June 1967 Israel was not recognized as a state by any Arab country in spite of the fact that it didn't occupy any territory in the W/B,E.Jerusalem and Gaza.Correct or False. 4/Israel was subjected to vitriolic media&propaganda attacks threatening the distruction of the State,the slaughtering of its people and so on.Almost daily and just prior to 5 June 1967,border areas in Northern Israel were shelled by the Syrians,the Tiran straits were closed to Israeli merchant navy after the Suez canal had been closed after its nationalisation.Egyptian troops were massed on the border with Israel in the middle of the desert.Correct or False. Today as you rightly mentioned Arab countries have changed their position.Egypt and Jordan have signed peace treaties with Israel.The Arab league said that it's prepared to recognize Israel within pre 1967 borders [which wasn't the case in 1967]subject to the establishment of a Palestinian State along side Israel [which they didn't allow in 1967] and a fair and just solution to the refugees problem [which they didn't care much about until now]. As I said before I believe that Israel should accept this offers except that the solution for the refugees problem must be spelled out in detail which is done quite well by the Geneva Accords including very specific measures to implement them. It is true that unfortunately Israel has rejected the Arab league proposals and the Geneva Accords.But so have the Arabs in general and the PA in particular. What I'm saying is simply that both sides are to be blamed equally for this impasse and if you are a moderate and fair human being which I think you are you should recognize this as opposed to so many participants to this forum who simply vent their bigot and fanatical views of the Jews or Arabs or they represent some official "cast in stone" inflexible political extreme position. I am personally ashamed and disgusted by some of the anti-Arab messages posted in this talkback and I hope that most of my fellow Jews don't share such views.They are offensive,racist,patronizing and plain stupid. I also feel that you and others like Khalid for instance equally reject anti-Jewish and anti-semitic diatribes disguised and anti-zionist propaganda. That's why I like debating these issues with you and respect very much your views however in some instances we will have to agree to disagree with each other. I extend my frienship to you and hope that our two peoples will one day do the same. All the best Daniel

to use the name of a hero with views such as yours is shameful.

http://www.bluestarpr.com/docs/gay.pdf

My point in my previous post was lost. I am not saying that any parallel exists between the situations of Indians in America and the Israeli Palestinian conflict. I'm saying that peace was made over 120 years ago. But lessons can nevertheless be learned. Once Chief Joseph made his declaration, peace became possible in this part of America. A treaty was negotiated, not imposed. Many Euro-Americans still don't like some treaty provisions, especially when it comes to water or land usage rights. We still have disputes, but we don't go to war with each other. Hamas is as implacable an enemy to Israel as the Nez Perce were to the US government and peoples. Yet, peace was made. You make peace with your enemy, not your friend. What's needed is a desire for peace and a realization that your enemy has needs that must be accommodated, too. Both sides have to give up something and the rejectionists on both sides will have to be contained. Hopefully, Israelis and Palestinians can be at least as advanced in their thinking in the 21st century as were those who ended the Indian Wars in the 19th century.

Gaza under the Palestinian Arab control will not be any different.

Their viral condition does not let them leave the Jews alone in peace.

and Israel...gets a lot of money from Uncle Sam...but for every 3USD, Egypt gets 2 and if you take into account what USA gives other arabs then you'll find she probably gives more to the Arabs.....and now biggest recipient of USD from Uncle Sam is Iraq and her rebuilding and USA also gives loads of weapons to arabs as well but really big money went to Europe,,,,,,YES Europe is biggest recipient....sorrry do you want us to break it down into little packages so you can still point finger at Israel....Try dividing it by 10no and you'll find it way outstrips what USA gave israel.....BIG KISS

I have many gay Jewish/palestinian /Israeli Jews and also non Jewish canadians...I do not feel closer to any one gay group than the other... ..I do know Israeli Jewish gays were able to live full Gay lives in Israel..The Palestinians were not able to In palestine...unless they moved to Israel as refugees...

Britain declard war on Nazi Germany not the other way around..... i guess Britain was the bad guy in your perverted reasoning

What is and is not said is said in any free country...which excludes the arab countries...for gays anyway.... ``some right wing orthodox Jews were saying about the Gay Jews`` In arab countries they dont say such things...they actually do them... `

Mordecari-- That's iIsraeli officials --doing what they do best---stealing from their poor neighbors and from the poor people in Africa to fund their oppressive and morally corrupt system, Daily, the Israeli Army steals from its poor neighbors' homes and farms with outdated land deeds and military orders to build more settlements (now totally over 200 ) for more greedy settlers; and keep their poor neighbors' children (over 7,000) behind bars and shoots at others at will. The Amnesty International report for May 2005 says it all: "The Israel army killed over 700 Palestinians, including some 150 children. Most were killed unlawfully -- in reckless shooting, shelling and air strikes in civilian residential areas; in extrajudicial executions; and as a result of excessive use of force." But what do these Israeli officials care about the poor people of Africa starving to death or dying of Aids because they have no money for medicine while they receive 3-5 billion in Aid yearly from the US and double to triple that in loan guarantees? Now they say Bush is stealing from America's grandchildren to keep them propped up. But what do they care about that either? Their eyes see only their own and their hearts only feel their own. Indeed, their bad behavior and unkindness is the shame of the free world--today. Dutch

Israelis rightly say the French in particular have only one interest in the Middle East grovelling to Arabs at Israels expense. Nothing you have posted contradicts this. So lets stop pretending please.

There is that joke about how many MK's in the Knesset and how many different views there are. Jews love a good argument. The United States are the new culprits and target for new tsourus. Imposing its will on Israel by asking them to stop building settlements according to the Road Map.The United States are quickly becoming the new pariah but according to the Pollard situation and the AIPAC affair we are friends of the US and they should understand the closeness of our relationship and yet when America is associated with that demonized 'road map' they become the Amalek of the week along with Israels own Ariel Sharon,darling turned devil with the yeshiva crowd. Every generation they rise up to try to defeat us....well with Israel selling military information to China they got from the US, theres no way that the infidels of America are going to rise up to get us. Maybe when we get kicked out of the Middle East through American arm twisting,China will find an old farm from the cultural revolution so we can start again with one kibbutz. The right wing Jewish extremist fundamentalist cultists are destroying Israel worse than anything the Palestinians can do. They are destroying our morality. They are twisting the Torah to their narrow selfish needs. They are pushing us apart from the global community,more pariahs who want to destroy us. They are even alienating us from ourselves. How can we argue with our core? IS THIS OUR CORE? Dont let these extremists take away the centre of Judaism.The principles of Charity,Forgiveness,Justice,Kindness are ours as much as anyones but they have thrown them aside for 'The Club' and the rituals of hate.

I don`t think that there is a single Arab Christian, Muslim, or Druzi who would not accept a free and demcratic Israel. Its the Israel as a Jewish state that they will not accept. and that is the reason the palesitnian state is in the dream works. and will be forever in the dreamworks until the acceptance reaches the level of awareness of living in peace with those nations who are un-islamic side by side until then I thank you for your truth now everybody can see how sincere the palestinians are making peace with the State of Israel as a Jewish State. Until that day comes keep dreaming

The other article has been dead for some time. Maybe sabotaged!

mark you simply forgot to state the obvious. If the Indians had not signed treaties and if the Indians of North America had continued their uneven fight they would simplynot exist today. It is time tht the Palestinians decided whether death on the battlefield is better than coming to a deal. It will mean compromises, the most difficult element will be the acceptance of the fact that a jewish state exists, and can exist amoungst them. Up until now very few Arab governments and many Palestinian people have not come to terms with the concept. We need a state, and it is ours. Hopefully some day there will be a Palestinian state which is able to control their humiliation of having to concede some of their dreams to the Jews. But this a great leap to take, and with dreams of conquering and occupation still a deeply felt part of the Arab and Moslem psyche, it will be difficult. As for the Ntive Peoples they have come to terms with the situation, except in cases like Wounded Knee, most have swallowed the honour of the battlefied and become happy American citizens. It is not the occupation it is the violence, think about it.

Native American's living on tribal lands are considered sovereign nations and regulate much of their own affairs, punish their citizens, pay taxes and yes, they do vote. Thankfully, they are using gambling, an ancient part of their culture (Remember the Aztec games were life and death or slavery) and many are making big bucks. After what they suffered, they deserve it.

I enjoy reading your posts and admire you. I have no idea if "ArabsforIsrael" who posts here is real or not, but the organization is real. ArabsforIsrael.com

Dutch, the Arab violence against Israel escalated on Israel's Independence Day. Violence and discrimination against Middle-Eastern Jews and Christians has been ongoing since Mohammed became ticked-off with the Jews ridiculing his inability to correctly recite Torah religious texts. I honestly believe the man borrowed from Judaism and Christianity to create a new faith and bring order the the pagan Arab World. You may want to read Manji's The Trouble With Islam, written by a female Muslim, for insight. Similar to the Arabs for Israel web site, she provides an honest appraisal of Islam, Israel, her birthplace Pakistan, and the USA. I challenge all on this board to read this insightful text.

you are correct. It is disgusting to see SOME religious jews try to deny the rights of gay jews (and others of course) Unfortunately, extremism will not permit one to open their eyes. Extremism is bad wherever it is !! I often feel closer to gay palestinians here in Montreal than my fellow jews !! Thanks for your kind words.

I don't think that there is a single Arab Christian, Muslim, or Druzi who would not accept a free and demcratic Israel. Its the Israel as a Jewish state that they will not accept. No more than you would accept the Existance of America as a White state. Zionists tend to use this clever play on words to make it seem as if Christians and Muslims Palestinians are intolerant of the existance of the Jews, when in actuallity they are intolerant of the existance of a System of government whose very nature is the sole elevation of the Jewish race, not the protection and prosperity of its own citizens.

"Simple as that. Though Israel was provoked, that provocation was short of war, and it was Israel who initiated warfare." And referring to a preemptive strike: "And, they were reasons which were sound for several reasons." Both these statements by you seem contradictory. If the reasons for a preemptive strike were sound, how was the provocation short of war. And it's easy for you to say the provocation was short of war. Those of us who remember those days find some of this revisionist history questionable.

Ibrahim your distrust of anyone who will stand and have different views from you is to be distrusted. You my s'hab will learn that in life that you cant change and sway people around you to your way of thinking. You supporter of the Jewish State? Your numerous posts sugar coat resentment and fake propaganda mouthed by folks who think they are believable they are working for peace as long as they get what Hamas dreams of that is Israel, no not just a Palesitnian state on west bank and gaza. Take a look at all your peacenik LOGOS, that speaks the truth what your true intentions are According to a French saying people do not treat extraordinary claims this way in fact they do just the opposite. Jaques Chiraq in response to a question from Christiane Amanpour about whether his campaign had received money from Saddam Hussein said In France we have a saying, the taller the tale the more people will believe it.

Israelis, regardless if they are Jewish or not generally cannot purchase Israeli land.

Franzen, Every country has contigencies of what they will do in case of war. They plan, they practice they prepare. That doesn't imply a plot for a premeditated attack. Everyone honest person knows this and now you know it. Isn't education a Wonderful thing. Maybe you should try it. Your knowledge and understanding of the ME conflict is about a mile wide and an inch deep.

Does anyone know what happened to the other article on this forum?

Did you really think you could sneak that past, Everyone (except the american tax payer) Knows that Israel leads the WORLD in AID to individual countries, and thats not including Germany's blood money. Thats more money than is spent on feeding all of Africa's poor and hungry.

I continually hear the remarks regarding bin Laden. Hey all, most of the bin Laden family are whole hearted supporters of the USA and lived here until 9/11. Many were educated in the USA, Osama bin Lauden was probably the only exception. I know, the USA props up corrupt regimes like the Saudis, and we do send big bucks in aid to many corrupt regimes, but slowly they are reforming at least somewhat. I know, you hate the Saudis, Egypt, etc., I hate thier corruption too.

To what denied basic human right are you referring to? I don't feel pity someone who gets into trouble because of his own actions. Every one of us has to deal with consuenses of our choices and that includes Israel, palestinians, me, you... there is no avoiding it, except maybe in some irresponsible utopia. as I said before, situation is neves so bad that it cannot get worse. That's why I rather see different alternatives and try to figure ouyt their pros and cons. However, I cannot share that same optimism of things magically changing to good as soon as Israel gives palestinians everything they desire, without need for them to compromise on anything. I'm sorry, but I cannot lie to myself like that.

Mark, my intention is to show the hypocrisy of the argument...i'm actually one of the few very pro-USA Brits...yours is a great country. The references however are all correct....they apply equally to canada, Australia, Brasil...most of SAmerica etc You state: Yes, land was taken from them. and then "We made peace." The truth is the land was stolen from them, they were in the main massacred and what was left of them had no choice but to accept the rules of the occupier, the white man, who chose to call himself an American...and then a Texan, californian etc none of which are native names just as English is a language of the occupier. What I'm saying is the truth....it is also the truth that the Jewish people, Judaism, Hebrew etc are so intrinsically a part of the history of the ME ......older than Islam ... so central ....yet people argue that Israel is colonial...how can the Jews in their homeland be colonial ? You, the USA are colonial...not the Jews in their ancestral homeland...... it is perverse

biggest recipient of foreign aid was Western Europe,,,,, real blood money + weapons + US troops ......billions and billions of USD ...makes wjhat the US gave Israel small change get your facts right

Asad, Can't you tell an imposter from a real Arab who is supportive of Israel, like myself. We have many many Arabs who are openly critical of Arab governments, they are more than willing to accept a Jewish State within the green line, and they condemn violence, particularly against civillians. Many many Jews, however, are in denial of this fact. So they create these literary figures, like Marie Latif and this ArabForIsrael, and they mold these figures into their desired image of the perfect Arab. One who refuses to criticize anything Israel does, one who only condemns Arabs and never Israel... Come on Asad....don't be too gullible! Salaaaam Aleeeek, Ibrahim

those American Indians (named such by the white rapists who stole their country) who escaped being murdered are a tiny minority ...soem of whom live in reservations.....many of your luxury golf courses are on their land....they take you nto court to try and get a little back...keep playing golf on their graves you hypocrite

These lefties cause a lot of damage...it is their hypocrisy, selective moral outrage and inconsistency that clearly puts them in the wrong. They talk about the "Olive Trees cultivated for generations by the Palestinians" that the IDF "destroys".....in the only country in the world with more trees now than at the turn of teh 20th century......yet somehow the mass destruction of the Amazonian rainforest and the homes of the native amazonian tribes by colonialist spanish/portuguese/english speaking rapists and pillagers is not an issue.....neither is the arson of forests in Israel by palestinians.

Jason, Did you notice what some right wing orthodox Jews were saying about the Gay Jews? It was terrible. One guy said he wanted to pull all the arabs into the Gay Parade in Tel Aviv and bomb them all! I do wish you the best of luck in your crusade to acheive Gay Rights all over the World.... Best Of Luck to You, Ibrahim

Your references and comparisons of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to the American experience with our native peoples is inappropriate, inaccurate and offensive. Yes, land was taken from them. We had a period called the Indian Wars. But we made peace. American Indians can live anywhere in the country. They can also live, if they choose on their reservations, where their own laws are effective and enforced. Enforcement applies equally to Indians and whites on the reservations. Trials are in tribal or federal courts, depending on the offense and what the treaties call for. The treaties are enforced by US courts, an independent branch of the government. Our state and federal governments have discovered that Indian rights are enforceable, even to the flows of rivers that are off the reservations if there is an impact on the reservations. The treaties trump acts of congress and the state legislatures under our Constitution. In recent years, there have been disputes and as a tactic, Indian tribes have sought the return of previously stolen lands. A few years ago, one tribe sought the return of 90% of the State of Maine, theirs by treaty right. The resolution was a new treaty that gave the tribe what it actually wanted in return for giving up their demand for the part of Maine. The disputes almost always have ended in resolutions that favor the Indians because our courts will enforce treaties.

You said: I doubt it was Palestinians - they don`t attack and run. What do they do? Attack and wave hello? Hang around to see what happens. (In truth, they probably don't run. As they ususally fire from within a crowd of civilians, they probably attack then mingle - knowing that nobody would shoot at a crown of innocent bystnadters. Smart? yes, brave? hardly.

ummm I know 1 , grew up at netzeriim.My guess..male? 10 000

Hey Rich, a few weeks ago Yaakov and I got into the issue of America's occupation of America. We also dealt with Canada, but did not get around to those Spanish conquerers. After questioning Yaakov on why he feels so comfortable as an occupier of native People's land, he explained that the Natives do not want the land back and have not resorted to violence to acquire it. Thus it came down to if the occupied are happy then occupation is quite acceptable. Now if we could only get those Palestinians smiling a little more, then things would be fine. Yaakov is basically a decent fellow, but he is Left-Lite and what he lacks in taste he makes up in guilt. He means well.

why do you try to deny these people (arabs4israel) their right to free speech.? Every time someone is critical of palestinians, you seem to have a problem with it. I resent the lies that i was told when i was a boy....i have many friends here in this canada,,,some are jews. They are very nice people ... and treat me no different than others. Some of these comments are jews very critical of Israel. This is what i admire about them !!

they (arabs) dont like to talk about such things...its taboo....kinda like female genital mutilation. They wonder why Israel is skeptical ? I think they need to do some house cleaning first !!!!!

The american Indians have full citizenship right unlike the oppressed Palestinians. Its true we haven't treated the Native Americans well throught our history. That should dealt with immediatly. I say we should arrest all the menbers of AIPAC for spying on the USA, then we should change the name to the "American Indian Political Action Committee" , use their secret files to help influence the many politicians under its thumb to push for the transfer of the billions of $$ going to Israel to the remaining American Indian populations. This will help right 2 wrongs in one shot. I'll bet we'll even have enough left over to pay off the blacks their 40 acres and a mule.

im afraid you are correct. Get ready for intifadah #3 (hope im wrong) WWW.JIHADWATCH.ORG

why do you have a problem with arabs that support Israel ? ITs ok for jews to criticize Israel apparantly ! They are (arabsforisrael)wonderful people who can think for themselves,,,and there are many of them. Many arabs in Canada are free thinkers. They may side with their people....but they are not so blind to accuse Israel of all their problems.... Go to Jerusalem Ibrahim......the jews will listen to you. They made peace with Egypt and Jordan !!

Lets not forget that Israel is the only (non-third world) country in the world whose economy is based on Foreign economic Aid and War reperations (Blood) money. Not to mention that most of that Blood money is spent on remembering the war and not on the surviviors of that war.

Fox-- I will never accept your attempts to justify the unjustifiable--the illegal occupation and the illegal settlements on Palestinian land. But I cannot but help feel your denial has come to represent the crimes of modern day Israel. From the time Ben Gurion said in 1947 when he agreed to the partition plan; "We take now what the UN gives us, later we take the rest" To Menachem Begin's own admission of the 1967 war: "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him" (Jerusalem Post, 20 August 1982). To Condoleezza Rice's present day warning to stop: "creating facts on the ground" (Haaretz, June 18, 2005). How quickly you seem to be to point out the wrong doings of the Islamic "freedom fighters" (many I can agree on ); and not a word about own terrorists soldiers whose crimes have filled the world's papers daily for the last four years. Indeed, how can you blame the Palestinians for their violence without admitting that it was in response to Israel's. During the past four years Israeli Army has murdered more than 4,000 (Palestinians-and the Palestinians have murdered over 1,000 Israelis, injured in excess of 50,000, Palestinians [over 6,000 Israelis); arrested some 30,000, and demolished over 60,000 homes and buildings, bulldozed a million olive trees, stolen 900,000 dunums of the most fertile land along with 89% of the water of Palestine. Today, Israel's terrorists soldiers are walking around scot free and many are considered heroes. But I feel this is all part of your cruel denial of the Palestinian people and indeed your denial of the facts: that many Israeli soldiers war criminals; human rights violators, breakers of international law; oppressors and torturers. Dutch

1. Israel is the only govermnet in the world that actively practices aparthied. 2. The only nuclear power in the ME that refuses to sign the Nuclear non-proliferation act. 3. The only goverment in the world that Financially and morally supported the last failed Aparthied in south Africa. 4. The only Country in the ME that has made Daily territorial gains, against international laws. 5. She is the only country in the ME who claims all the territory from the Eupharates to the Nile. 6. The only Demcracy in the world that does not allow 35% of the population under its borders the rights: * to vote * Due process * Taxation with equal representation * freedom to practice their religion * to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects. * Freedom of movement * freedom to gather and protest

#168 We are obsessed about the Jews cause we are Jewish. What is your excuse, George? What brings you over to the Jewish channel? Actually Lizz I'm here because I am concerned about the future of my friends in Israel and my friends in Palestine. It was my Jewish friends who educated me on the subject of Israel's abuse of the Palestinian people, and of the apartheid that exists in Israel. Because I have so much respect for these wonderful Jewish people I joined them in protesting the occupation of Palestine and the Israeli system that has allowed such atrocities to continue for generations. The loudest voices I have heard raised against the occupation of Palestinian are Jewish voices, and I am proud to be associated with so many of them. Long Live Palestine. Free Free Palestine. And long live Israel too - within secure 1948 borders.

Before this ME moment slips away !!! Straight from the mouth of a journalist who needs to fill some space with words. There have been loads of moments, this one is no different.....arab society needs a long time before it will start getting things right, if ever. Jews, World....prepare for the long haul...it ain't gonna get any prettier in the arab world.

But what also must be understood, is that the USA must respond positively to the demands of the oppressed native "american indians" and commit to cease all further development and expansion of their (ie USA) colonies on occupied lands.

You don't by my arguements...of course you don't. People like you NEED to believe what you believe...it's part of your complex. Your comments are a bit immature.

the white man stole the land from the natives and renamed the country america and had the cheek to then call the native true owners indians etc stuck them in reservations...these reservations exist today where the natives still suffer......they have to exist according to your laws by your occupation force appointed judges .... they are prisoners in their own land..what would happen if they started fighting to get their land back.....you US citizens living on the graves of those whose land you stole have no right to start shouting the odds......btw, same applies to canada, australia, NZ, nearly all of S.America.

Michael, You continue to prove that you unworthy of peace and also somewhat ignorant of the situation on the ground. To be so snug with a status quo that results in millions of Palestinians being denied their most basic human rights and then simply blame the situation on the other side, is both pathetic and callous. You do it to yourself Michael. Shalom. Ibrahim

Daniel, I expect a little more fairness out of you. The reason we have a state of war between Israel and various Arab regimes is at least partly because of Israel's behavior. To characterize the bad relations as simply ARABS HATE THE JEWISH STATE...this is both unreasonable and dishonest. Israel has also not been friendly nor helpful in her relations with Arab State. The Arab League put an offer out two times to Israel, Full Recognition and End of Hostilities in return for an end to the Occupation. It was a simple offer and it needed more discussion...but Israel refused to acknowledge it. The reality TODAY, is that Israel is weary of of an end to hostilities...Israel is more comfortable with a low level state of hostility than with an end to the conflict. There is not much other way to interpret Israel's behavior or the mentality of her supporters. Best Regards, friend. Ibrahim

Instead of complaining to Haaretz about the commentaries they publish, you should ask them why they make it so easy to pick a bullshit screen name and lie about who you are....

When will the Palestinian Arab terrorists who murdered the American diplomats in Gaza be brought to justice? Probably never! -------- I think there have been many questions about who was responsible for that attack. I doubt it was Palestinians - they don't attack and run. Some think it was another case similar to previous ones where Israeli terrorists commited such attacks and attempted to blame Arabs.

Jews are indigenous to that land. Right. So are dinosaurs.

How many Gay Settlers are there?

I wish the palestinians had pride. It would stop the theft, corruption, nepotism and interim violence which plague their territories. Yes, they shoot at Israelis but the number of palestinian civilians murdered by these armed bandits is disconcerting. Next thing you'll blame Israel for arabs killed by arabs! When your leaders will stop their mercenary ways perhaps you will be proud and begin to flourish!

George you must ask yourself why your fixation on the Jews. It is obvious that no other occupation in the world has gotten the attention that you have given to the Palestinians. Maybe "Jews is News". Maybe you are simply a product of too much CNN. Maybe you are so scared and traumatized by Islamic violence that you are seeking answers and a means to deflect accusations of guilt. Terror works. If the PLO had not spent much of the seventies, carrying out Olympic massacres and blowing up Europeans and their planes, then this would just be a backwater. If in 73 the Arabs had not instituted an OIL embargo and threatened your pocket book and way of life, then again this Palestinian-israeli thing would be a far away meaningless set of circumstances. Or maybe it is a basic subtle anti-semitism which has built up in the minds of the European who came to think of the Jew as a viscious userer, carrier of disease and "Christ-Killer". You must admit that we have had some rather bad press for the last two thousand years. why are we freaking out, well there are actually six million reasons but I will not list them here. So it is time you relaxed and begin to question what is behind your over-heated interest in this tiny speck of land. It may open your eyes. Intelligence implies lateral thinking, seeking cause and effect, not just regerjatating the same old, same old. We have very powerful enemies, including the Church, Islamm, Big OIL, The Soviets and them there bubbas in the white supremacy industry. Explain your influences. Thank you.

To Haaretz Editors All your commentaries are prosed in such a way as to invite Jew Hatred It is patriotic to criticize one's country in order to improve it--but it is foolish and dangerous to focus on criticizing an imperfect but democratic Israel while failing to criticize human rights abuses elsewhere--everywhere else--in the more totalitarian world. However, I must admit that my passion is now entirely focused on the betrayal of the truth and of the Jews by educated elites, and on the Left and denial of the enormous danger Jihadic Islam poses to us all. These concerns are shared by the right, and scorned by the Left, as is the right's and my own concern for freedom of religion and religious tolerance. Left traditionally, and even understandably, in favor of freedom FROM religion but not at all interested in freedom of worship as a human and religious right. I am also smarting from the vulgar racism (Jew-hatred/anti-Zionism) which "politically correct" people both engage in but deny is racism since, they say, they are anti-racists. I find responses here classified as Jew Hatred How can I tell? When some folks here cannot calmly discuss the history of the Middle East, the cause of Palestinian and Muslim suffering,blaming the Jews instead, the history of the Jews without immediately yelling, growling, belittling, scorning, intimidating, shaming, literally ranting and raving, if the emotional anger is way out of proportion to any intellectual discussion--we are looking at brainwashing AND Jew-hatred. We are looking at a Soviet-style or Maoist Show Trial, at least psychologically. If the person who behaves this way is themselves Jewish or even Israeli--we are looking at the German-Jewish phenomenon--and it's a psychological problem. If the person railing against the Jewish state does not really know very much about Israel but feels absolutely committed to their position and to their high-decibel emotionality--we are probably looking at Jew-hatred. Today, most anti-Zionism is Jew-hatred. what a disgrace!

Hey Dutch, thank you for your response, for the first time you kept your hysterics down a touch and attempted to expose your soul somewhat. Your history of anarchism in the United States was interesting but simplistic. I am happy to hear that you did not dance on the rooftops at the news of the death of Van Gogh. But the act itself speaks volumes of the Islamic world's reaction both historical and contemporary to any signs of criticism. His killers had decided that he was a little satan a source of evil and thus had to be murdered. and as you know it oes not stop there. They attempt and do censor many artists, journalists and politicians. Since humans experience fear, there is no better weapon than violence. Today in the Netherlands many decent folks are scared to death to publicly convey an opinion. Since the second world war, Holland has become a bastillion of free speech and progressive (not socialist) thinking. to think that the creeping Islamization is capale of putting a halt to this is inexcusable and downright shameful. Yes it is a form of Rape and occupation, if not of the land then of the soul. In your many rantings you attempt to point out that Israel is basically evil to the core. Yet you experience no fear at desseminating your views on a Zionist forum. I believe that this speaks volumes about the country itself, that does not order fatwahs against those who criticize Judaism, its heroes or it's actions. I have a female friend a journalist in Zurich who started working on a piece about the connections of a Swiss mosque with international Islamic terrorists. After receiving a few phone calls from elements within the mosque she was convinced that carrying on with her project could be detrimental to her health. Of course she stopped. Islamic terrorism sent out a pretty strong message to the world's journalists when it slaughtered Daniel Pearl recorded on video and diseminated on the internet for maximum impact. Many a journalist rolled over and decided it just was not worth their lives to continue exposing the cruel and sadistic mannerisms of these "freeom fighters". by the way it is not the occupation that is the core problem here. Under occupation the Palestinian econn\omy was doing as well as could be expected under the guiding hand of a corrupt and violent Arafat, may he stay dead. Unemployment wa at 10%, Germany would be proud of such a figure, after initiating the intifada, unemployment has skyrocketed to 29%. To mis-quote Clinton, "IT IS THE VIOLENCE, STUPID!

BTW ISRAEL IS THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE MIDDLE EAST GAYS CAN LIVE ,PARTY,GET ELECTED TO OFFICE(TEL AVIV CITY COUNCIL,MK LAST YEAR)CIVIL UNION ,SERVE IN THE ARMY etc etc YOU GET KILLED FOR THAT IN RAMMALLAH OR GAZA..... http://www.bluestarpr.com/docs/gay.pdf

dont show your total ignorance george...Jews aint allowed in Riyad...unless they lookin for money...then they let wolfowitz in....hypocrites...

And Israel ignores the overtures. What harm would it have done if Israel called the bluff and responded to this offer? Please let`s not beat around the bush. This isn`t about recognition of Israel, it is about land and human rights."" Ibrahim it is you who is misguided. 1. Arafat used to talk "peace" and send a suicide bomber into Tel Aviv Netanya Haifa Jerusalem, Peace? now we are on another path talking peace and disengagement, guess what.. kassam rockets fly glaring in the air daily is this peace? Palesitnians dont do such things huh, no, the kassams and other toys just fly by themselves! look at yourself in the mirror Diplomacy should not be used as political checkmate while one side keeps its word, and the other side willfully disregards its promises to gain political advantage. The roadmap should be replaced with a carrot and stick approach that recognizes that the center of gravity for peace in the region is the growth of a pro-peace, prosperity, and freedom wing of the Palestinian people. The primary requirement for peace should be the destruction of the terrorists. This inherently is not a diplomatic task. Smoke and mirrors will not work.

The PLO was convinced that Israel was helping Hamas in the hope of triggering a civil war. Since Hamas did not engage in terror at first, Israel did not see it as a serious short-term threat, and some Israelis believed the rise of fundamentalism in Gaza would have the beneficial impact of weakening the PLO, and this is what ultimately happened. Hamas certainly didn't believe it was being supported by Israel. As early as February 1988, the group put out a primer on how its members should behave if confronted by the Shin Bet. Several more instructional documents were distributed by Hamas to teach followers how to confront the Israelis and maintain secrecy. Israel's assistance was more passive than active; that is, it did not interfere with Hamas activities or prevent funds from flowing into the organization from abroad.some Israelis were very concerned about Hamas before rioting began in December 1987, Israel was reluctant to interfere with an Islamic organization, fearing that it might trigger charges of violating the Palestinians' freedom of religion. It was not until early in the intifada, when Hamas became actively involved in the violence, that the group began to be viewed as a potentially greater threat than the PLO. The turning point occurred in the summer of 1988 when Israel learned that Hamas was stockpiling arms to build an underground force and Hamas issued its covenant calling for the destruction of Israel. At this point it became clear that Hamas was not going to put off its jihad to liberate Palestine and was shifting its emphasis from charitable and educational activity to terrorism. Israel then began to crack down on Hamas and wiped out its entire command structure. Hamas has been waging a terror war against Israel ever since. Israel had nothing to do with the creation of Hamas as some here indicated

Moshe, I like you pointing out the great Arab conquest of so much of the world. It rarely gets mentioned and creates an excellent juxtaposition with the claim that Jews are the colonialists. Peace to my Berber brothers, if you can find any.

As I said, status quo is better than solution that ends up to be worse. Resolution 242 is binding resolution and the whole peace process is based on it. That's why it cannot be treated as it was non existent. Regarding wars, arab countries started many of them and all wars between Israel and them have been provoked by them. The six day war was provoked by arab countries and they purposely committed actions which they knew in advance to be considered as an act of war. Comparing to any other nations, they have had more patioence than any other nation. And what dual system are you referring to? Israel has only one laws for it's citizens, regardless of their religious beliefs. Palestinians are not citizens and they never will be citizens of Israel. Also, roads for israelis in disputed territories are only because of security. You should know what happens to lonely jew if he wanders to palestinian town. He will get himself killed in very short time. World has had stinking double standards regarding Israel for years. Isn't it amusing that even I can see them, eventhough I'm not a jew or israeli? I don't need to prove you anything. I'm not part of the conflict and your accusations are false again. Better luck next time.

Johannes Military Staffs all over the world have contingency plans which are necessary in order to move troops keep them fed and supplied with ammunition in case of war.This is so with Israeli,Egyptian [wonder how their military plans looked at the time?!]Swedish etc. What counts is the political circumstances and at the time Egypt,Syria,Jordan and just about every other Arab country was in a state of war with Israel.That state of war started with the creation of the state in 1948 and it went on until at least Egypt and Jordan signed peace treaties with the Jewish state. That war had luls and cease fires,intense battles like the one in 56,67 and 73 and low intensity battles like the war of attrition from 68 to 72. The state of war between Arabs and Israel continues today with the exception of Egypt,Jordan and some remote Arab states which have recognized Israel.Everyone else is at war with Israel in the Arab world. The cause of the war:THE EXISTENCE OF THE JEWISH STATE OF ISRAEL.ITS OBJECTIVES:THE DISTRUCTION OF THAT STATE Some people would like to make us believe that the war is a territorial one.Withdraw from the WB,Gaza and East Jerusalem which you took in a war of aggression-out of the blue you just attacked us and grabbed our land?!-and you will have peace.Israel was at war fighting for its very existence well before 67 when the territories were "occupied" by "friendly" countries like Jordan and Egypt [who didn't they recognize Palestine at the time] Not so Mr Franzen the war was and still is about the very existence of Israel.It's one and the same war and the fact that after being threatened by hysterical mobs and their leaders,after having their collective farms on the shores of the Sea of Galilee and in the Hula valley shelled daily by the Syrian artillery,after having the Tiran straits vital maritime outlet blocked by the Egyptian navy Israel attacked them doesn't make them the aggressors.Any other country would have done the same thing You cannot change history Johannes.We can only make choices for the future and hopefully learn from history. You and others in this forum take historical facts out of context and interpret them to suit your beliefs and ideology however you must understand that some of us lived through those times and will not be so easily fooled by cheap propaganda STOP BLAMING ISRAEL for everything in this conflict.Try to be fair and just.Try to find a realistic solution for the future rather than point the finger at one side only.

What brings you over to the Jewish channel?

Probably never!

Some Arabs claim that Jesus was a Palestinian Arab. If Jesus was a Jew from Bethlehem, Judea how could that land become Palestinian? Unlike the white Euro colonizers who occupied Australia or Argentina Jews are indigenous to that land. It is not surprising you don't see it.

where is marie latif ? we could use her about now !

i dont buy your argument. Arabs have been attacking jews for years before 1967? The only people the p.a sends to Israel are kids with bomb belts. You must really think they are stupid. Ever think thats why Israel has achieved great success and the palestinians are where they are? So sad for the palestinians (and israelis)

You are obviously a very angry person. American admin isnt blindly pro Israel. Pro Israel yes. Decisions are often made that are negative for ISrael...there have been many. Many of the hardware found in u.s planes was developed in Israel...thus saving countless american lives. The amount of arms that Israel captured during the wars gave america lots of insights to Russian armaments--thus saving lives. Having said that, are you aware that Israel is virtually the only country that supports usa at all times ?....or maybe you hate America too ?

How would you react if out of 23 students in class you were singled out and treated differently than the rest of the class? So where DID you go to school. Riyad?

We know well how the rest of the world sees Jews. We have 6K years of history. Lizz you are really a piece of work. Why do you carry on about Jews? Nobody's talking about Jews. Jews are great. (Well a lot of them are -- same as a lot of Catholics and Muslims and Methodists and Budhists are great) But this is not about religious frenzy and perceived victimhood. It's about Israel's apartheid policies inside Israel and its crimes against humanity in illegally occupied Palestine.

Moshe, You are so disengenuous....The Arab need not love Israel - but they have offered full peace and normal relations. It has been offered twice. And Israel ignores the overtures. What harm would it have done if Israel called the bluff and responded to this offer? Did not respond to the offer because Israel chooses Land over Peace... Please let's not bull shit around. This isn't about recognition of Israel, it is about land and human rights.

"your attempt to re-write history is interesting. If you want peace, then you must go to the jews like Anwar Sadat did." Evelyne, what do you think we are trying to do? We are going to the Jews....the Jews aren't answering. They are sitting on a high horse arguing that Palestinian violence has absolutely nothing to do with their occupation.

He probably has a "Support our Troops" magnetic on his car, with the fine print disclaimer saying "except those on the USS liberty"

I hope those FEDS are keeping track of you LIZZ sounds like you're one of those Anti-american anti-democracy, anti-equalty, US spying Pollardites.

Here in MI we have a program called welfare to work. It takes Welfare cases and forces them to work to earn their own money so they can provide for themselves. After years of leaching of the tax payers those welfare cases beacme self suffecient and had a lower arrest rate than there welfare soaking counterparts that weren't forced to work. Israel has a parasitic existence to the US it takes takes takes, causes us great harm and never gives anything back. A leach is said to have some benefits such as its natural anesthetic, an anesthetic that would not be needed if the parasite had not bored a hole into your skin in the first place. Israel-fanatics use this argument when they claim Israel provides the US with valueable intelligence. Intelligence that America wouldn't need if wasn't blindly supporting Israel, thus making it a enemy to all those that oppose oppression.

How would you react if out of 23 students in class you were singled out and treated differently than the rest of the class?

..and for the last 2K years we have a record with you.

You need to learn a little more about the US aid to Israel, Egypt, Ukraine, etc. and get the numbers straight prior to spewing your anti-Israel venom.

.....but I am not going to teach you, as you have already been poisoned by the anti-Israel propaganda.

5 billion of our American Tax dollars yearly too Israel , and the have not been able to disarm Hamas, even though they helped create Hamas. Since Israeli memories are short , they tend to forget that it was the Israeli Mossad that helped create Hamas in hopes that it would toople support for the PLO and Fatah. So how can an Under funded under motivated unpaid group of PA police disarm Hamas?

Again, dear Liz, a lot of us have a problem with the fact that our tax dollars are used to finance state-sponsored terrorism. By the way, I recognize that for some posting here English is not their first language so I have no problem with poor grammar, spelling, etc. But aren't you American? Were my tax dollars also wasted on your education?

Why here, Lizz? For one reason because it is American money - including mine - that finances Israeli terrorism against innocent civilians.

in the end this is about israel and how we see ourselves and there is little to complain about Too bad you can't see yourselves as the rest of the world sees you.

Keep in mind when you are debating with the haters of Jews and Israel you are debating with very sick people Why must anyone who disagrees with you be called 'the haters of Jews and Israel'? No one would waste time here who did not care both for the Israeli's and the Palestinians. You don't believe in democracy?

This piece is bull. The advocate of allowing the PA to not fulfill its responsibilities of disarming Hamas and Islamic Jihad is really excusing the U.S. of its failure to also fulfill its promises. Where is US pressure on the Palestinians to end incitement, and stop completely the terror groups? It has dissipated in the fumes of Saudi oil. No, you write the lie. The US has held Palestinians to a much higher standard than Israel. And, they have done this when the Palestinians have been twarted on all sides by Israel so that they could not fullfill expectations. You talk the same double standard that is driving Jews in the US to abandon current Israeli policies and to turn away from the US president. Too much death, too much money, too much time to prop up the settlers. It must end and peace must have a chance.

Lizz is droning, Steven was stoning, Khalid does moaning, Ben Levy is Cohen-ning, Danite is foaming, Jason is homo-ing, Mark Lincoln needs tone-ing, Sami is Goooo-ing Orquest is bow-ing Yaakov is all knowing, Fox is growling Ibrahim is growing The right wingers are davening and Ronnie Wolman is running... .....enough for tonite..the fight ensues at dawn.

While I find Yaakovs condemnation of almost any manifestation of Jewish nationalism to be a bit overdone his comments re a certain type of jewish nationalism is well founded indeed.To tell you the truth Orquest I have never encountered before coming on this site the idea of Jews as a race!!! I have lived in Israel for a total of 8-9 years and amoungst my friends who were of every conceivable background the idea of race and Jewish identity I cannot remember ever being mentioned!It is also very clear that from Jewish tradition that we are not a race. Moses married a midianite then a Cushite King Davids grandmother was Ruth the moabite convert so eevn the messiah of the line of David has a convert in his past!!! Maybe some Jews do distort things into a racial thing but walking down any street anywhere in Israel will show clearly that we are not a race. it is obvious. As for tribalism, does that mean extreme nationalism? If so then all peoples and nations have that element in them. I call jewish national feeling simply that jewish national feeling, like all others it has many different ways of expressing itself it is no more inherently reprhensible than anybody elses national sentiments. So yes I subscribe to Zionism the National Liberation movement of the Jews who constitute a People -Nation with the right of national self determination, I find no contradiction between that and being a progressive democrate, of being open to the world in a healthy spirit of internationalism. This whole issue has gotten totaly out of hand from maniacs who think Zionism and Jewish antionalism is racist,while Arab nationalism is what? Progressive? Come on already! And out of hand by some Jews who have totaly misunderstood the idea of Choseness and turned into a teaching of contempt of gentiles, which is a totaly false understanding of that idea. To me being a Jew and having Jewish National feelings is no more bizarre or incompatible with my duties as a human being than breathing or swimming is.

The whole point I was making is that as blacks are treated in the US, Arabs are treated in Israel. Blacks are not treated as Arabs in Israel. Blacks can come and go as they wish. Blacks have constitutional rights equal to whites. Police and Military personnel come in all colors. They would no more start a battle with Blacks than they would with whites. We have no open air prisons for blacks. You misunderstand the bone that is niggling those who question Israeli treatment of Palestinians.

Israeli Arabs are full citzens of Israel and have every right as any Jew. The do not have a right of return that is true. However the right of return is for natives to the land, not colonial land thieves. Calling Israel a racist state would mean that Israeli Arabs do not have full rights which they do. Steven, you misquote me. I but responded to your comments. You are the one who brought up US Blacks vs Whites etc. Discuss the real issues as I won't trade barbs. What I do want to know is how you can consider Israeli's natives to the land, and not the Palestinians? There are many Israeli's who are of European, African, US ...desent. How are they natives to the land?

Why would a normal white lad, lady who are not Arab, Islamic or Jewish be interested in Israel vs the Arabs when there is touble in Kashmir, Uzbekistan, Uganda, Moldova, Sri Lanka, Philippines, etc. and 95 other conflicts around the world?

#140 this is the irony and an example of how anti-Semitic this world is. They want Israel to accept gays from Ramallah, Nablus, Jenin, Gaza, etc. and contract but expand the territory of the very people that persecute the Palestinian gays.

What percentage of the ~ 1 Million recent Russian immigrants to Israel are religious? Although I don't know the answer myselft, I would guess a large percentage, right? If they are not religious, why is the law of return applicable? Danite, you have to be honest. There is an element of race, and tribalism as Sullivan likes to call it, in Jewish culture. I don't like it either, but this is the truth.

Fox -- You shouldn't get so worked up over the "sea of hate ." I feel you will only allow yourself to become more paranoid and that will be counter productive. Yes, I feel suicide bombing is awful. But should it have involved the army in a war response -- certainly not. I feel that was a gross over reaction by your government. However, I realize when people feel threatened their tendency is get tough is great. Still, I feel that left out the most important part of the response--getting smart. Besides, I have always been impressed by the way the American President Teddy Roosevelt solved the problem of anarchism a precursor to our modern day terrorism at the dawn of the 20th century. The anarchists were a group of very unhappy workers who blamed the financiers for their misfortune. Back then work was seasonal and there weren't any benefits for workers -- who often found themselves short changed and unemployed for long periods of time. They took to assassinating the financiers and blowing up industrial equipment and premises. Roosevelt came to the presidency following the assassination of President John Mc Kinley. (Mc Kinley was assassinated on his perceive links to corruption--the opposite was true.) In his first address before Congress--Roosevelt promised to fight terror but he also went on to outline his reforms for the financial system--which caused the terror of the anarchists. Roosevelt not only solved the terror of the anarchists but corruption in the financial system. Today, the American financial system is the apple of the world's eye and it has been trouble free for almost a century. Today, I feel the Israeli government could easily solve the problem of Palestinian suicide bombers--but they wish to continue building the settlements and maintaining the occupation. All six previous American presidents have said the settlements "obstacles to peace." Yet your government has remained defiant--this is shocking! Today, there are 200 settlements. How outrageous all in violation of international law too. Daily, the settlements deprive the Palestinians their basic freedom and rights and their lawful right to self determination. That is shameful. I fear this will come back to haunt Israel's children too if it isn't resolved soon. Yes, I was very upset with the death of Theo Van Gogh. It should have never happened. He had a right to expose the practices affecting the Islamic women. But I don't think you should blame all Moslems--like I feel you are doing. Maybe I am wrong. Still, how different is this Islamic extremist from your right wing extremist who assassinated Rabin or indeed the Southern bigot who shot and killed Martin Luther King or indeed the man who assassinated Gandhi? I think there will always be extremists among us. But most Moslems I know are peace loving like people like Christians and Jews. I believe we need to make things a whole lot better for others --especially the Palestinians and the iraqis and the people of Darfur. This I feel is easily within our grasp and capabilities. As JFK said, "Our problems are manmade, therefore, they can be solved by man." He was so right! Dutch

you are correct. There are actually about 300 gay palestinians in Israel. Can you imangine...if they go back to the p.a they may be stoned to death.....on the other hand they are scared to be picked up by security in Israel and deported. Many gay jews in Tel Aviv give them shelter. They truly are wonderful people....I know several of them !! ( i really do think that the gays could put together some kind of peace---i know it is most unlikely to happen) Furthermore, when i am with them (Montreal and Tel Aviv) i sometimes feel closer to them than to some of my brethern !! Go figure !!

Dutch- Your comments are contemptible. You write about the Israelis (as a group, mind you) that their "sins are endless." Did you paraphrase this from "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"? In any vital democracy radically opposing points of view fight for supremacy in the marketplace of ideas. It is only in tyrannies (like the majority of Arab states) where it would be fair to refer to the ruling class as having a consolidated group agenda over a long period of time (much longer than the average 4-5 years between elections in a democracy like Israel's). Did you feel this way about Israel when Rabin made "peace" with Arafat in 1993? You are on the slippery slope to a position of enmity with the Jewish people from which you may never recover. You haven't seemed to learn from the past.

Khalid, your comparison between Hamas and extremist Jewish groups is insane. Hamas's stated aim (in their covenant) is the destruction of the Jewish State (ie: their goal is genocidal) and they have backed that aim up with HUNDREDS of intended and successful suicide bombings which deliberately and specifically targetted innocent Israeli civilians--men, women and children--towards that stated goal. They were not targeting soldiers and inadvertently killing civilians, and they happily promoted the images of their homicidal "martyrs" in schools and on public posters. Hamas states very clearly it intends to create an Islamic theocracy in "all of Palestine" (ie: including all of current day Israel) and that there is no place for a Jewish State, and Hamas has at the very least an order of magnitude more support from the Palestinian public than the Jewish extremist groups you refer to have from the Israeli public. If Hamas had had its way and 90% of its attacks had not been thwarted by Israeli security services, 10,000 Israeli civilians would have been deliberately murdered in the second Intifida, not 1000. There is no comparison.

You are adopting Hilters standars for who is a Jew? Hitler was a demented psychopath our tradition says WE ARE NOT A RACE. According the Bible RUTH the convert was the grandmother of King David the messiah is to come from the line of David so even the Messiah has a convert in his past!!! Are you Jewish steven I ask because to use Hitlers definition of who is a Jew when Judaism has its own clear rulings on that is something that is abit far out dont you think buddy?

It is interesting to note, that according to an haaretz article of over a year ago, that there are at this time, hundreds of gay Palestinians residing in Israel. In contemporary Palestine gays are punished for being gay. thus many have fled to Israel where there are no such laws on the books. Gays here serve in the army and are active and accepted memebers of the community. Which I believe is the way it should be.

Let me explain about my name Danite, it is a nickname my friends gave me as one of the Tribe of Dan(one of the Tribes of Israel) my friends and i are ancient history nuts so we gave each other "ancient" nick names like the Parthian , the Druid Pythagorus etc depending our predilictions. Ana Zalame! Maaleesh Habibi! Shoukran al baraktack Inte kaman akbar Zalame! Inte faham kalimati fi Arabi mish masboout? Thats the best I can do in Arabic! Well I too will appear less on this site soon as I will be in and out of town over the summer. So it was a pleasure to speak with you I wish good success and I liked what you had to say about the issues. maybe in September we will pick it up after the events of the summer have shed more light on the issues we have been speaking of. . By the way we Jews believ e that a name is very important and influences a persons personality, yours is Ibrahim who in our tradtion is famous for arguing with G-d not to destroy Sodom and Gemorah for the sake of 50 innocents then 40 then 30 then 20 then fianlly for the sake of 10(it is in genesis) you share your names sake sense of fairness and humanity. Allah Ma ak Ya Ibrahim!

Hello B. I myself am not messianic nor utopian in my thinking. I try my best to see what is apparent before my eyes. For example today I spent time with my family at some Arab friends in Um al Fahm. We sat drinking coffee and eating watermelon with a spectacular view of the city below us. At around three oclock the mosques started firing up their speaker systems and belting out the call to prayer. It is a lovely sound and I enjoy hearing it. Our hosts had spent time in the United States, I am originally from Canada. I commented on the tolerance of religion in this country, Israel. I explained that there is not a chance in hell that the Canadian govenment and city councils would allow speakers to blast out the call to prayer at six in the morning or anytime as a matter of fact. We commented on church bells, and she spoke of missing the call to prayer. When I lived in Tel Aviv I used to hear the call, a number of times during the day, and I remembered how surprised I was to hear the first time. it was interesting that a country which called itself Jewish would allow the muzzahin to make his prayer public, just as in Nazareth and Jerusalem you can hear the bells of the churches ringing. We Jews have nothing like this, probably for many a historical reason. But what is important here is to realize that unlike the vast majority of the jewish population which is secualr, the minority populations feel and see themselves as very religious. Our hostesses, even though they are left politically have no problem with the call to prayer or covering their heads. Israel is very tolerant in this regard, so do not expect all democracies to react like you would wish them to. Even democracies have to bend like bamboo, to satisfy the spiritual urges of their population. The trick is to somehow sideline the fanatics who would not be so tolerant of the customs of minorities in their midst. As for a Jewish state. The jew wherever he has been has faced some form of prejuidice or worse to his customs and practices. The French have outlawed wearing head coverings and scull-caps. Israel is founded on both serving as a refuge for the jewish people and also crucially as an environment where we can feel free to practice our religion the way we choose. I have been here many years, I am secular and have had no problems being who I am. I do not hassle them and they do not hassle me. Sure I have some problems when the state hands over issues such as conversion, marriage and divorce to the religious elements, but this society is one in perpetual flux and things will change to suit the individual's rights, if not now then eventually.

Yes in Jerusalem the 'unholy alliance' Jewish and Palestinian gays found in each other acceptance that either of their religion couldnt give them. In Germany,Gays died at the hands of the Nazis along with Jews.So what unoly alliance would you like to align YOURSELF with???????

mark, my friend, I am slightly bewildered at your reaction to Moshe. Hitler said quite a few things about the Jews, being creative regarding history would have been extrordinarily kind on his part. I would also prefer that you did not jump to the quick equation of anything done or said by an Israeli with Hitler's Germany. It is brutal, and terribly unfair. It seems that the Third Reich and their effect on this planet and its creatures are being trivialized by your off-hand reaction. I usually respect your postings and insights but this time your analogy was regretable. Regarding history, perceptions and terminology have bcome farcical. For instance, I have read the Koran on two occasions. I have also had an interest in history and Arab history. What is as plane as the face on my nose is the admiration shown for the great Islamic conquests of much of the world. While the Left and the Arab world are pointing accusing fingers at Israel claiming we are occupiers and conquerers, which to a degree is true, we hear the words of the Moroccan "Reconquistas" one of the groups that tried to take credit for the Madrid bombings. Unabashed they claim that Spain for many centuries was Islamic, this is also true. They are pushing for a "re-conquest" of the land. I am sorry sir but it sounds a touch hypocritical to criticize Israel as a conquerer yet glory in this imagery when it pertains to Moslem conquest and occupation. This is definitely an example of creative history and geography. But of course this does not stop at Spain nor Israel. Much of the world where different cultures meet with the Moslem empire are experiencing the pains of Islamic muscle flexing. With "OIL" as a means to fill the bank, funding of many a revolution or asymetrical warfare is taking place. This has been witnessed on the Indian_pakistani border, where the moslems have laid claim to large sections of India, the only reason being their large Moslem populations. Bosnia fought a dirty war with the Serbs and Croats. It is common knowledge that the Bosniak forces were spiced with foreign Islamic fighters. A special Bosnian militant unit "El Mujahad" was led by Abu Abdel Aziz "Barbaros" a senior Al Queda recruiter and veteran of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan. He was made Amir or military commander of the Saudi Arabian and Afghani mujahadeen in Bosnia. they were supported by Iranian special forces. the chechnyans take pride in their participation in the conflict. We are also experiencing the growth and spreading of a "Greater albania" which includes Kosovo and parts of Macedonia. Even the Chinese in their western regions are experiencing a rise in Islamic inspired confrontations. It is happening, the Moslems are not ashamed of the fact, yet they point their fingers at us claiming we are guilty of expansionism. Whether we are or not, I do not feel that they are qualified to throw the first stone.

"Operation Focus" had been 16 years in the making(others claim 5 years) Mordechai Hod that was called in a year before to finalize the plan that he hatched together with Ezer Weisman, took over sole responsibility for its execution as commander of the IAF. He later confessed:"Sixteen years planning had gone into those initial 80 minutes" and his "We lived with the plan, we slept on the plan, we ate the plan. Constantly we perfected it." isn`t really the stuff that lends credibility to the reconstruction of events. Nasser was tipped of and took the preventions that he could, to no avail. The war was over in 5-6 hours, but the Israelis kept on for another 5 days for the "punishing bit", the execution of POW and the poundering of the second defence line. History isn`t always pretty Mark, but that is no reason to settle for a "controlled past". Because that is what Israel can afford right now, one day I`m sure they can afford a History. As for your "There was no American go-ahead. There was no request for such, and no wait for such." I wouldn`t be that sure if I was you Mark, but I give you a LINK so that you can come back and see if you changed your mind. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4160/is_200206/ai_n12832165

nice to see you are open minded.....peace for all of us !! salam/shalom

The second website you gave me is much better than the walid one. Note that I visit them. The only point is that identifying oneself only to one thing (human nature is more complex) get one straight to fanaticism and/or stupidity. I don't defend a state, I defend an idea, and I didn't wait for internet to start. Just think about the difference..

"Israel attacked in 67. It might have had its own reasons to do so but it initiated the strike. Dont defend the undefendable." - Bainem And, they were reasons which were sound for several reasons. Israel did not have intelligence as to exact dispositions of Egyptian forces deep in the Sinai and thus could not be certain that they were in fact defensive deployments. Egypt had blockaded Israeli access to the Red Sea. That Egypt was acting from fraudulent intelligence supplied by the Soviet Union only makes the whole thing more of a tragedy. The ultimate deciding factor was that Israel could not maintain high mobilization due to the effect of that mobilization on the economy.

"if you say so,,,, when one believes his own lies...he is not lying !!" - alan Then he is simply insane.

"That would explain why they occupy and ruthlessly oppress the Palestinians." - Johanes Israel found itself in the curious position of occupying the West Bank, Gaza and a portion of the Golan after the Six Day War. At first they thought they could trade land for peace, but that didn't work out. Thus Israel has found itself in the uncomfortable position of occupying army. The occupation grew more ruthless as opposition grew more deadly. The death spiral of cause and effect has grown tiring to both sides. But not tiring enough.

"I have several cousins in Haifa. Who are you trying to fool when you say Israel started the 1967 war." - Asad Levi Eshkol anguished over the decision to initiate the Six Day War. He was concerned that the US would oppose Israel as it had during the war in 1956. He was also prodded by military hawks like Ariel Sharon. Eshkol decided that Israel could not maintain a high state of alert indefinitely and thus authorized the attack on Egypt and then Syria. The first strike by the IDF was devastating, and destroyed most of the Egyptian and Syrian air forces on the ground. Simple as that. Though Israel was provoked, that provocation was short of war, and it was Israel who initiated warfare.

if you dont like Walid at www.shoebat.com then try wwwarabsforisrael.com you can attack all you want these websites that are very pro ISrael. Unfortunately, with the rise of the internet, people can see the truth for themselves with very liitle effort. ISrael will win the PR war too !!!!

"We must hand it to the Arabs - they are very creative when it comes to history, current events, geography..." - Moshe Sounds like something Hitler might say about Jews. Next I will hear that Arabs have large noses because air is free.

Al Qaida has just annouced that they don't want Hamas to run in the upcoming elections, Sharon has already said the same and now Condoleezza will stand there and say.......?

Israel of course is not going to negotiate with Hamas. Even though Shamir a reknown terrorist was a big reason why the organization started. The sad reality is that in Camp David, the Israeli politicians who are supposedly not extremist showed their true colors. The fact they wanted so many stipulations to a final solution, and not giving up all of the occupied territories, more or less controlling it by proxy, showed that it is Israel that is not ready for peace. A free Palestinian state means it controls all it's borders, airspace, movement of people, capital of Eastern Jerusalem, control of Jordan valley, control of a contigious territory in Gaza, West Bank, and East Jerusalem. All Israel does by this is fuel Palestinian militancy. What are you expecting the Palestinians to think? I can bet any people would see thru the clouds and see that Israel does not want to give up one inch of that land. By the way, I wholeheartedly agree the suicide bombings are wrong, and a shame to the honor of the Palestinian people. However, Israel has also done this to the Christian Palestinians also. The fact that they have censored Church Patriarch Atalla Hanna just because he's not an advocate of Israeli policy is a shame. If Palestinians were so barbaric, then how come my churches in Palestine remained before Zionism? Yes, us Palestinian Christians are the forgotten people in regards to this conflict. You colonized the Palestinian people who were communal and decided they were "backwards" since much of ZIONISM was fueled by European imperialism. The Palestinians may be passionate about their respective faiths whether Muslim or Christian, however they are even more passionate about their nationality. And that pride is something Israel will never take away.

"Maybe it`s not 22, it`s 87 hostile countries!" - Bainem This is getting just as good as Joe McCarthy's list! The numbers change, but the rants the same. Coming Soon! The Duchy of Sark commits to the anti-Israel Coalition!

im afraid it was the closing of straits of Tiran. If someone comes to kill you and you kill him first are you wrong ?

"then why were the arabs attacking Israel before `occupation` in 1967." - alan Because of delusions that they could destroy Israel or perhaps just delusions.

too bad everyone doesnt leave it to the gay pals and jews. If you have been following the world pride 2005 in Jerusalem, you would see that the 'unholy alliance' brought together arabs, jews and christians. Kinda interesting ?

your attempt to re-write history is interesting. If you want peace, then you must go to the jews like Anwar Sadat did. The crimes that the arabs inflicted upon the jews is nothing short of horrendous. Americans would have droped bombs on you a long time ago !!!!

Israel attacked in 67. It might have had its own reasons to do so but it initiated the strike. Dont defend the undefendable. Whoever you are, Asad.

if you say so,,,, when one believes his own lies...he is not lying !!

Luther King's quite at the top of the first page should teach you few things, Alan.. love. Israeli strategy is based on everything but love. I don't even speak about the ennemies treated even when they are not conscient yet of what they are, like bugs. Don't speak about objectivity, speak about informations going into your sense and that you consider the only ones to be "objective". You won't fool anyone by just mentionning "love" before any propaganda.

That would explain why they occupy and ruthlessly oppress the Palestinians.

Why did the Arabs attack Israel before 1967? We've been through that one too. Actually both sides were attacking each other. You need to let go...Do you hate Germans still? Jews have been severely abusing any rights they have to the West Bank when they decided to steal land and create a dual and unequal system between Jew and Arab. It's unfortuante, Jewish behavior in the West Bank has made your people look real bad... But it can be fixed...you simply need to come back to the peace table and negotiate a withdrawal. But don't worry, Jews can still come and visit as much as they like. Peace, Ibrahim

i have read most of this posts. I have several cousins in Haifa. Who are you trying to fool when you say Israel started the 1967 war. Do you really believe that? 3 million jews attacking 200 million arabs ? I live in Canada now, I an so grateful to be away from the indocrination that was forced upon me and my family. Although some solution must be found,,,i dont think it will help by blaming Israel for all the problems. We must take responsibility for the past and make it a safer place for all our children. It makes me angry when i read many posts that are hostile to Israel. My cousins want to see peace for all of us too !

Ibrahim- Sorry, but the onus is on the Palestinians and the many many Arab and Muslim states out there to prove that they truly want peaceful coexistence with Israel. I always find it amusing to read the Arab/Muslim view of the world. The largest scale, most successful colonial enterprise in the history of the world was the Arab-Islamic conquest. And now Arabs have the nerve to cry about Crusaders and Zionists! Arabs scream about the inequalities for Arabs in Israel, when there are Arab countries where Jews and Christians are forbidden to live or freely worship. Just this past day Arabs marched in Acre to commemorate the death sentences handed out to Arabs by the British during the Mandate for killing Jews. I'd like to see whether Jews could ever freely demonstrate over their grievances in any Arab-Muslim state. Ibrahim claims all will be well if Israel were to return to the pre-Six Day War lines, even though the majority of Arab/Muslims deny any legitimacy to a Jewish State in the Middle East no matter the borders. More than likely, the Arabs will then play the same game Hezbollah is now playing. Israel withdrew from Lebanon to the internationally recognized border, and so Hezbollah invented a new border to claim that Israel remains on Lebanese land. We must hand it to the Arabs - they are very creative when it comes to history, current events, geography...

WWW.SHOEBAT.COM i think you need to be more objective

I chided someone yesterday for calling a convert any less Jewish than anyone else... ...once someones Jewish ,they Jewish and we stuck with them,even if the hold strange views...as you do... ..But I never questioned your Jewishness....or that of your kids...(unless the moms a siksa :) ) SO CHILL... I do not attack the Jews on here...not even the self haters.... JF hates us....and therefore I do attack him....

You forgot China (30 million muslims), India (50 million muslims), France (6 millions), England (about the same), Italy, Spain, USA, Canada (500000?), Sweden, Denmark etc.. Maybe it's not 22, it's 87 hostile countries!

"Our Sages teaach us that the convert is to be commended exactly BECAUSE THEY CHOSE TO BE JEWS WHEN THEY COULD HAVE IT EASIER BY NOT BEING!" - Danite This brings to mind an argument I once overheard between a "birthright" Quaker and a convert. . . The convert having been informed of the other's 'birthright' status, asked "Have you not made this birthright an unseemly vanity"? Choice takes more will and devotion than accident.

then why were the arabs attacking Israel before 'occupation' in 1967. I prefer to use disputed territories. Jews and arabs both have a right to be there, therefore, disputed.

"We need more, basically the entire West Bank and Gaza with a nice clean rail-line or highway to connect the two." - Ibrahim And how will that rail line run? Up, around through Syria, Lebanon and under the Med? "I supsect many settlers will be allowed to stay put...perhaps an equal land swap or something of that nature." - ibid A Settlement for right of way swap? Interesting. "So many of you will still be able to go out in Judea and Samaria and play war games in the woods. Just use paint guns so nobody gets hurt. Steve-we can be friendly neighbors!" - ibid I can see it now, "It's our turn to hold the woods!" "We planted them!" "Oh yeah!" Pop- - - SPLAT!

`` perhaps the most difficult thing about being a Jew is having to endure the likes of KJJ.``if thats the most difficult thing to endure you should never have converted.and you gotta endure lotssss...I consider myself mainstream Jewish (with acceptance of converts as equals by the way)

"The position of ?honest broker? if it exists, is not an easy one. The moment the US shows preferences, with whom she wishes to negotiate in the Palestinian Camp, she is no longer an honest broker. " - Shimon Z. Klein And Dubbya Bush is in no position to act as an honest broker by his own actions and words. American Presidents have in the past acted as honest brokers, most notably Theodore Roosevelt in the Russo-Japanese War. There is no way that our current President can function as an honest broker after launching his "Crusade" (yes, I know we changed the name, but Arabs and Muslims are not fooled by window dressing) in Iraq. "As the situation stands now, Hamas is gaining support. It would be a good idea if the US remains silent and not show any preference one way or another." - ibid Alas, speak - or shoot - first and think later is the hallmark of Dubbya Bush.

"I mean, if you`re going to pretend that terrorists are something else, at least be consistent." - Avi The Bin Laden family are business partners of the Bush family, and one of Osama's brothers was Dubbya's first partner. Israel's Likud party was founded by Terrorists, and terrorists have been made the Prime Minister of Israel. Life is so much more complicated than slogans don't you think?

Michael, I could make many of the same claims on you and your side...but I won't waste my time. You really do prefer the status quo to something that brings the people on both sides more hope in the future. That makes you somewhat callous to the needs of your people and to humanity. Perhaps one day, you will have a life changing event and see that the World is not against Israel - they are only against the idea that Israel can start a war (as they did in 1967), then claim the land they won, then set up a dual system of laws, one for Jews and one for Arabs, meanwhile, stealing land for settlements and Jewish only bypass roads. I think if you support all that, Mr Mike, the onus is on you to prove that you are indeed a reasonable and peace loving person. Later

Hi Yaacov, and thank you for keeping straight your positions and good vibe speech. I just don't see why waisting efforts answering these people mentionned above, where you seem obliged to justify yourself, your blood, your judaism, bref, I think you should not waiste more time and energy in it. These people, as well as many others here are not here for dialog, but for pointing what they call self hating jews. They are just here to repeat the same tired propaganda and note that they will never answer questions, but just ask kind of vicious closed questions (to judge the jew that would dare not sharing their taste of propaganda). They are ghostbusters thinking we are still living under the british mandate and they are the pioneers. They are fed with propaganda but it has become so anachronical that they can not even think in terms of dialog with the other. Just to mention the style of their rethoric, in answering my questions many times, they just blame me for being french, collaborator, vichyst, antisemite, bla bla bla.. (helas I'll never tell them what's my race/colour/religion/nationality, just to see how far they go in trying to put a frame around me). You are a Jew, and a noble one, you are Irish by origin and you are many other things, what have these things to do with the topics of discussions here??? You're not on trial as far as I know, so please avoid their stupid under-the-belt fight making you proving what you are. You are better than them and that's it!

Alan, If you withdraw to the green line and stop breathing down the Palestinians' neck with roadblocks, trenches, assissinations, imprisonment without trial or even charges, land confiscations, convoluted absentee laws that make it difficult for Palestinians to leave the country and come back... ...then you won't have any problem with Hamas or Islamic Jihad attacking you. If in the absence of your occupation, and you STILL had attacks against you, why then of course, you have every right to respond in kind. Peace, Ibrahim

with your conversion to judaism "legitimising" your criticism of israel, you now are ed8ucating the rest of us ref judaism why dont you go the whole hog and join up with the neteurei karta

1- what a vicious way to promote Israel's freedom of speech.. aljazeera is not "not allowing" talkbacks. It simply don't do it, as well as most papers online (europeans and others). 2- Khalid thinks the same about an islamic state (yes he criticizes it), and he as well as many is courageous enough to say it when it needs. Indeed there are more than few: Saudi, Iran, Sudan. If you mean muslim countries, than yes, there are much more (almost 1 billion muslims worldwide). 3- Jordan is an arab state, they speak, write in arab. Israel write and speak hebrew (outside of the occupied lands), thus within these boundaries, Israel is a hebrew state. It's only equivalent to say Islamic state=Jewish state. 4- Israeli arabs have less rights than israeli jews in Israel. Not to mention those who unfortunately are just residents. Israeli arabs have less rights than arabs in some muslim or arab countries, and they have more rights than muslims or arabs in other muslim or arab countries. 5- Immigration phenomenon concerns also israelis (jews) going to the "westernized" countries, because it seems that they look for something better than where they are. It's the same motives that push arabs, blacks, chinese, europeans etc.. to immigrate (when it's not wars or starves etc..). These were just few answers to your reducing-full of prejudice-pre-answered-questions. You are more than generalizing over all what's related to arab or muslim being. That shows only bad-hidden racism sneaking behind sort of naive questionning.

you forgot Iran.....22 plus Iran www.middle-east-info.org

Lasensky wrote: ?Furthermore, Washington could develop clear conditions for opening a dialogue with Palestinian Islamists, as it did with the PLO in the late 1980s. Two of the conditions, as then, should now be recognition of Israel and renunciation of terrorism. The current Israeli government's opposition to a dialogue stands in stark contrast to the burgeoning debate within Israeli society about the inevitability of dealing with Hamas?. Will the US also demand that Israeli racist parties and individuals declare full recognition of the right of the Palestinian people to statehood and equal rights? And if the US demand banning Hamas from the elections, will they demand banning racist Israeli parties? The double standard has to stop for peace to have a chance.

so being shomer shabbat makes Yaakov better ? I know plenty of shomar shabbat who are the biggest hypocrits !!!! Tell your arguments to some of the 6 million who died because the nazis labelled them as jews. As far as he was concerned,,,,jews were a race.(and a religion)....and many other scholars agree.

Lizz, if you are here just to sow hatred toward arabs (the 22 team you always mention), be aware that this forum is one of the best tables to talk, between israelis, overseas jews, palestinians, arabs, europeans, americans, etc.. The fact is they know it and that's why to avoid those watching us everyday expressing their fanaticism when an individual of the community is going toward another from another community to talk. Here place is made for those who really aim for peaceful dialog (polluted by few fanatics of course, like you, Orquest, Fox, and many in fact). So please go and get more informations about the "22", or go back to your dark fanatic mind and let the others try to believe in peace.

and what should we do when groups like Islamic Jihad, and others continue their policy of teror against Israel. Turn the other cheek? There are many good arguments made in theory, unfortunately they dont translate into reality.

Orquest, Can you please confirm?

"My deepest apologies to those affected by their cruel practices." Yet you see no cruel practice in continuing to incite hate and continuing to commit terrorism and fire rockets when Israel is beginning to make concessions they shouldnt (and the arabs do nothing). And you see no cruel practice in HAmas, a terrorist organization no different or better than al Qaeda and have killed hundreds of people. But THAT is not cruel to you???? Only what you concider to be an occupation of a people that NEVER HAD A COUNTRY OF THEIR OWN TO BE OCCUPIED IN THE FIRST PLACE!! Dutch, i will mail you a 100$ check right now if you can send me an unbiased map of Israel thourhgout history when it was under the rule of a "palestinian" people.

"It was not in Israel that I encountered any sense of racism or disperaging of Jews by choice. Israel is too diverse to even think about such things." This is the first positive comment from you about Israel. Congratulations, Sullivan, you're making good progress!

Israeli retreating to green line is effectively giving up everything. They won territories in wars they did not start, and now they are asked to return them after so many years of flaming hatred and terrorism. No other nation would EVER even consider that kind of alternative. I have said before that if palestinians would do their usual acts in anywhere else in the world, they would be annihilated without an blink of an eye. Nobody would be interested in them. But when it comes to Israel, rules seem to change... even authors of resolution 242 recognized that demanding Israel to withraw to armistice lines would be unfair and unwise. I fully agree with them. If palestinians support hamas, they should also carry the consequenses. It should teach them some realities of statehood and democratic system. Well, I don't see very much concrete evidence that you were so peace loving people. I have seen very much stuff that proves just the opposite and I'm ashamed to admit that our own government (which usually has left wing influence in it) has funded something like that. (There was some questions asked, but their official answer was not convincing. In fact the one who gave the answer lied about the issue...) As you already know, I don't have any obligation to believe any solution to be better than current situation. I rather prefer on better choices, not bad ones even if intention is good.

KJJ-- If you really wish to claim Israel as your ancestral home--you need to stay within in the historical perspective. I feel one cannot think about historical Israel without the gatherings of the Christians, the Muslims and the Jews. Historically, this seemed to have worked better for the different groups. Therefore, in fairness to everyone --I feel Israel's policies should be inclusive not exclusive. Surely, you can agree the surest way to preserve what is so important to you and others is to have a winning plan. It is not right to isolate people or indeed to isolated yourself. This is the way of the global economy is heading in the 21st century. Why not embrace this perspective now? It will enhance your economy and the region's--open new markets. And perhaps more importantly -- this will allows you to capitalize on the universal aspect of the Holy Land. This should be your most important product--tourism. Since you don't have oil and agriculture. Dutch

Does everyone on this website see what this has come to, with this posting from this cortez person? Do you see? An inquisition by this Cortez woman, by this Orquest person and this geographically detached KJJ individual. All of them, of course disagree with my views. We all know that. That is their right. They have not confronted my ideas. No. That they have not done. What they have done is cast aspersions on my character, on my Jewishness, on my intentions, on my spiritual condition.Orquest and KJJ did it by some cheap shot penny book pschology. This cortez woman goes further and racialises the attack, based on pure bloodlines. These strangers who know nothing about me except from a posting on the web which indicates my love and appreciation for a particular Catholic monastic order. This Cortez woman questions me because my "blood" line, lies in Ireland, from a people who experienced oppression at the hands of the British, were offered soup during the famine if they would convert to protestantism, who had to build "priestholes" in order to hide and protect from the British, the instructors of their children. And the fact that this is the past, historical memory into which I was born, disqualifies me from sharing in the history and destiny of my adoptive people, the Jewish People. For that, according to them, I must show total tribal allegiance and back an odious occupation and if I dare question it, then up rise, like from a sewer, the foul waters of racial betrayal, an obscene perversion of the Nazi term "rassenschaunde" is used to define "pure" Jewishness. How dare you act with this presumption, Ms Cortez and the same applies to the other two with their snide, contemptuous comments about my past and my motives. It is not our blood that connects us to Israel, Ms Cortez, nor to the Torah. That is a pagan notion, not a Jewish one, so clear your head of these myths. They are not Jewish. Blood, pure blood at that, which you claims makes one a "real" Jew is what was glorified by the Nazis and it is to their mythology that it belongs. Shame!

Fox, I am spiritual myself. Nevertheless, this spirituality is private between me and whoever I think it is the God. It is private. I don't force it on others, and I don't like others to force their believes on me. Every Human has a unique relation between himself and his God. Not every jew has the same spirituality, neither every Moslem or Christian. A state is a public domain and should be free of religious private influences.

There are many examples how democracy has worked in autonomy. My own country is good example of it - our democratic principles had long traditions long time before we gained independence. We had buildt solid ground well before independence and that is why progress was somewhat painless. There was civil war, but socialists did not win that one. After civil war there were some problems with extreme right, but they were also handled. Men went home and leaders of that movement were jailed. After that we suffered two big wars and one smaller war. There were also tensions because of cold war, but in the end, our democratic system has prevailed very well. It is not a matter of occupation or anything like that. It is a matter of will, hard work and determination to build democracy even if it is not easy. Someone from a different forum told you something he does not know. I live in northern europe. However there has been also others using the same name, one for example from London. That might have caused some confusion.

Have you heard of the Workmens circle or the Tikkun community? I am sure you have, I am sure you would find a decent reception there. After having lived in Israel many years I also find some in the NA Jewish community a bit hard to take myself.But the good thing about Jewish communities is that they are very diverse with soemthing for everybody. We are good "tag team" today taking on the convert bashers arent we!!!

Orquest, perhaps you need to remember that before Hamas engaged in any violence against Israel and way before Oslo, the late Rabin vanquished to the blue skies of Lebanon,over 400 Palestinians including Hamas leaders. As for Oslo it was doomed to fail. It was an arrangment between Arafat, to save his skin after siding with Saddam, and the Labor party who wanted to put an end to the first Intifada but without making the decision to "really" have peace with the Palestinians. Israel wanted to put an end to the Intifada and found Arafat as the guy to deliver the "quite" for Israel. Meanwhile Israel continued with the settlements, doubling the size, continued with the check-point, continued with the confiscation of lands, and supported Arafat with his corruption, in fact it was his partner, and supported the militias that Arafat proposed to protect his "behind" and to deliver the Palestinian quite. Your Likud government never even accepted nor recongize Oslo. I was against Oslo all along, not because I did not want peace with Israel, but because I knew that the two parties did not have the same intentions which is true peace.Hamas did not engage in any terror activities until such time that Israel did engage in a deliberate policy of killing and murdering the Palestinians. I am not a big fan of Hamas, but let us also look at the facts and the background. Hamas terror did not arise out of a vacum, because Hamas wanted to just kill people. It is too bad Israel decided to wage war on the Palestinians and we all know who invoked the armed intifada and Hamas reacted to such killing, with suicide bombing trying to equalize the killing fields. That is the way it was and is. So let us not just blame the damn Palestinians for every thing including the 29th day of February.

For someone so quick to draw on me this morning over a post I didnt even write you seem to have disapered pretty fast when I asked you very simple question. I have asked it 3 times now but the Irish mist seems to have swallowed you up.I guess you are to embarassed by your hypocrasy to show your face around here now?

Hey Dudette- We're in relative agreement. I might comment that Israel's pulling out of the majority of the West Bank is not for purely propaganda reasons, not simply to isolate Hamas... It is also the RIGHT, FAIR, MORAL thing to do. It's a positive all around... Anyway, I fear my days are numbered on this site...It's been great conversing with you. You have quite the charm! Peace, Ibrahim

Steve, Both approaches are flawed anyway. Who needs them. But let's get real...Area A is NOT ENOUGH. We need more, basically the entire West Bank and Gaza with a nice clean rail-line or highway to connect the two. I supsect many settlers will be allowed to stay put...perhaps an equal land swap or something of that nature. So many of you will still be able to go out in Judea and Samaria and play war games in the woods. Just use paint guns so nobody gets hurt. Steve-we can be friendly neighbors!

"It was in this country by those who think like you, who have reduced Judaism to nothing more than tribal instinct. That is where it has been encountered, and it should ceertainly give you pause as you sit under the California sun." Actually, Sullivan, I agree with you on the negative influence of "tribalism" in Jewish culture. So now, your analysis of me is wrong. I hope that make us even!

Michael, I think the esteemed Ben Gurion provided a realistic summary of Hamas and how they will naturally moderate as they become more involved in politics. Regarding some of your comments: Israel retreating to the green line is NOT "giving up everything". You are starting to sound like a settler? Which one do you live in? No, Israel still retains what is now Israel-proper, where you enjoy at least an 80% majority and you can add to it as the majority of the settlers move back home. This is a great deal for Israel and if they wait another 10 or 20 years, I am not sure if it will still be feasible. Regarding Palestinians supporting Hamas in elections: they do so for one main reason: they are viewed as less corrupt. Don't forget Palestinians voted in Mahmoud Abbas precisely because he was viewed as the most capable leader to bring a peaceful resolution to the conflict. We are a peace loving people, contrary to your alternate theories and assumptions, which do nothing but rationalize the status quo.

Our Sages teaach us that the convert is to be commended exactly BECAUSE THEY CHOSE TO BE JEWS WHEN THEY COULD HAVE IT EASIER BY NOT BEING!!!!! CHOICE IS COMMENDABLE IN JUDAISM AND CONVERTS WHERE TO BE TREATED WITH HONOUR FOR HAVING TAKEN ON A BURDEN THEY DIDNT HAVE TO!!!!! yOU TOO READ A BOOK ON JEWISH LAW AND RABBINIC TEACHINGS RE CONVERTS.GOOD GRIEF ARENT YOU EMBARASSED BY YOUR LACK OF JEWISH KNOWLEDGE AND DERECH ERETZ???

How does having the name of spanish conquistador make you a canditate for pure jewish blood status which does not exist anyway? If Yaakovwas right wing he would be a good convert? You are not fitted by jewsih Law to judje a convert only a Bit Din can are you a Rabbi? There are many people who had their famillies perish in the holocaust and died for Israel and who are left wing! are they real jews Cortes? Please read a book about Jewish Law the tradition that you are so ignorant of.

Daniel, I should remind you when the Olso talks started, the Palestinians were negotiating with the state of Israel, which at the time was completely against the formation of a Palestinian State of any kind. At any rate, I appreciate your comments. I agree that the majority of Palestinians do not favor a strict Islamic state but of course, they embrace Islam as the majority religion of the country. You are also correct that Palestinians want to be free from Occuapation AND Palestinian ineptedtude, graft and corruption...but it is quite reasonable to assume they view the Occupation as far and away the #1 problem. The gap between rich and poor doesn't help, but in general, Arabs are not a materialistic society and as long as people have work and can educate their children, they are content.

in response to # 58 one can only respond with the Yiddish phrase: "Ze schver zu sein a yid" and perhaps the most difficult thing about being a Jew is having to endure the likes of KJJ.

Khalid, I just read your latest article on Aljazeera.Net. Why do they not allow responses to articles as they do here? I found it interesting in your column that twice you mentioned examples of how Israeli policy is racist but that of other countries is not. First you said there was no basis in International law for a Jewish or Christian state. What about an Islamic state? There seems to be more than a few of those around. Also you mentioned that Jordan was an Arab state but then did not follow up in the comparison to Israel being a Jewish state. You only mentioned how the policies of the US and France cannot be compared to Israel. You also failed to mention that Israeli Arabs have more rights than Arabs and other Muslims in any Muslim country. Perhaps that is why so many try to get out of their home countries and into a Westernized one.

Greetings, Who exactly are the Jew-haters you are referring to on this site? I hope you don't consider me one. Yaakov gave you a good reference, in the Lebanon Daily Star. You might also try the Jordan Times. Also look at Al-Ahram, an Egyptian paper. I commend Haaretz for hosting these forums and I hope one day we'll see one of the Arab papers do the same. Best Regards in your journey towards inner peace, enlightenment and truth (you have a ways to go). Ibrahim

hello B. my reaction to your posting is this: Your ideas are to simplistic, to construct man or ubermensch void of spiritual needs is imperfect and bound to fail. Religion is not only for fools, and any democracy that cannot absorb this human need is shallow and devoid of reality. The world is full of opposites, ying-yang and things a effemeral as hope.

...and this is your business? How....? its OUR business.....

Your apologies were offered. Your apologies were accepted. Let me point out something clearly to you. You touched no raw nerve. Dont give yourself such credit. It was not in Israel that I encountered any sense of racism or disperaging of Jews by choice. Israel is too diverse to even think about such things. It was in this country by those who think like you, who have reduced Judaism to nothing more than tribal instinct. That is where it has been encountered, and it should ceertainly give you pause as you sit under the California sun.

so Dutch where ae you from in North Africa? I cannot believe that with your mind, you are from a long line of Dutch folk. "No country can be an island." Well open your eyes, we have been one for a hundred years. An island of progressive thinking and democracy in a sea of hate, filth, death, rotten leaders and ludicrously anachronistic social systems. You calling me racist is in itself a racist statement. From what I see Holland is attempting to become an island, if not forced by the sea, then by the creeping Islamization. The people of the Netherlands witnessed a number of months ago, the brutal killing of Dutch filmaker Theo Van Gogh, at the hands of another group of Moslem fanatics. Why was he killed, well he had the chutzpah to direct a film critical of the treatment of women in Islam. This was for Dutch and his crew a penalty guilty of death. How did you feel about his death Dutch. Did he deserve it because he tried to tell the truth. And if this wasn't enough, because of Moslem fanatic death threats, a film festival in Holland decided not to show his movie. Those Moslem boys sure are into free speech! And if this wasn't enough, a Moroccan Dutch painter, Rashid Ben Ali received death threats for a show critical of Islamic violence. Hey Dutch what is it with you guys? Why all this killing? Do you support these fatwahs on people who produce art that you do not agree with. Is it reaching the point in the Netherlands where no soul is allowed to criticize anything cocerning Islam. Are we witnessing the Wahabism of the Netherlands. I certainly hope not. But I fear you do.

Dear Mr. Lasensky, You have written quite a good article. I differ with you on the evaluation of the problem presented by Hamas today. If they are allowed to participate in the political process, and they should be, there is the possibility that they will moderate their views due to their new political responsibilities. Of course, one would not expect them to renounce their basic ideology which leaves no room for a Jewish state within the Islamic world. However, they may accept a long term cease-fire which will amount to a de-facto recognition of Israel. We may learn the lesson of the Israeli experience. My old rival Begin used to be a "terrorist", but ended up acting responsibly in dealing with Egypt (although not with Lebanon or the Palestinians, regrettably). Did he ever renounce the Jewish right to the EAST bank of the Jordan? No, he simply put it on ice and didn't claim the territory. He may have convinced himself that it will fall into Jewish hands in some dreamy future age. Let Hamas follow this example. As long as they don't act on their dreams until the time of Messiah, they will be preferable to the other rejectionists you mention in you article.

"In any case opening a dialogue with Hamas can only help the peace process and save Israeli lives, what is wrong with that." If Hamas was interested in a peace process between Israel and Palestine, why did they launch so many suicide attacks to ruin the Oslo peace process in the first place? Every time Rabin/Peres and Arafat were close to agreeing on anything, the Hamas would launch an attack to throw a stick in the wheel. Of course talking is better than shooting! So on this point I agree with you.

Please do not teach us about the world. There are 100 conflicts around the world. Why are you here? What brings you here? Why are you on here and not in Darfur or Chechnya?

as you said "Keep in mind when you are debating with the haters of Jews and Israel you are debating with very sick people." Let's take that a step further: keep in mind, when you are debating with haters of any ethnic and/or religious group you are debating with very sick people. Unfortunately, many of my fellow Jews seem to believe that their intrinsic worth as human beings is greater than that of gentiles, so therefore they feel it is legitimate to act in a hateful manner towards other groups, such as Palestinian Arabs. The "sickest" people in this whole equation are (to our great shame) the extremists on the Israeli right.

Before I make my comment, I would like to emphasize that the struggle for freedom by any group is legitimate as long as their freedom doesn't cancle the freedom of the other. I can't see a difference between allowing the Islamists "In this instance Hamas" to rein over the Palestinians and between keeping the occupiers. It is two sides to one coin. What the Palestinians and the Jews need is a secular democratic state for all of its people. No religeous group should be invited, because this is the end of secularism and democracy.

Liz-- While people around the world are becoming more opened in their ways--Israel is becoming more closed and tribal in its ways. "Only Jews guarantee the Jewish State." I think that statement is rather foolish. Why should the state of Israel be a Jewish State? That sounds tribal and racist to me. Why not be a democratic state and have equal rights? That's a much healthier way to go. It should improve your security too. No country today is an Island nor can it afford to be. Dutch

this is our land not yours and this is our fight not yours - other than bleating there is nothing you can do we (israel)will decide on who governs us and how they act and so far there is no cry from the street for the gov or the idf to stop it is not so long ago the dutch were giving up their jews in truck loads - so put your own house and own history in order in the end this is about israel and how we see ourselves and there is little to complain about bm

Shalom Freedman-- You are in no position to point a finger at the PA, Your government hasn't dismantled one settlement bloc either. What about all those illegal out posts too? How can you talk about incitment either? It's your terrorist army that fuels incitment daily. Indeed, look at the hate from Israeli supporters too --on this page. So you are not in any position to point a finger. Dutch

Let us keep things in perspective and keep one thing in mind. It was Israel who was the first to ever establish discussions and dialogue with Hamas, during the regime of PM Shamir. Of course the intention at the time is for Israel to find an alternative to Arafat's PLO. As it happened, Hamas was not corrupt like the PLO and went on with its business of delivering social services that the PLO and Israel did not provide the people. Hamas turned to suicide bombing to balance the terror which Israel was subjecting the Palestinian people to on a daily basis. I was and I and will always be agaisnt terrorism whether Palestinian or Israeli, and whether such terrorism was carried out by a suicide bomber or by the IDF. However, we also need to keep in mind, that it was the US, England and the rest of Europe, who not only opened dialogue with Jewish terrorist groups, but funded and trained Jewish terrorists. These Jewish terrorists went on to establish the State of Israel. Both Shamir and Begin where on the most wanted list of terrorists. Moreover, it was only AFTER the State of Israel was established and there was a need for the rule of law that underground and terrorist organizations where disbanded and merged with what became the IDF. Of course some unites of the IDF continued, even after independece to commit terrorist actions against the Palestinian people and one of the leader is the present PM Sharon. So why is the cry over the US or European intention to open a dialogue with Hamas, the Palestinian terrorist organizations, why the big fuss when the US and Europe not only opened dialogue but supported Jewish terrorism in Palestine before and after and continue to do the same till now. Is Jewish terrorism better than Palestinian terrorism, I don't think so. Terrorism is terrorism whether Arab, Muslim Jewish or Israeli, all are the same. In any case opening a dialogue with Hamas can only help the peace process and save Israeli lives, what is wrong with that. Is'nt saving Israeli lives is what the Israeli and Jewish the agenda is all about, or is it keeping the occupation and keeping terrorism going is Zionism is all about.

1)"colonial lands thieves" Please explain fully who are they ? 2)Can Israeli Arabs buy any home anywhere in Israel? Thank you my friend

``To assume that the colonist population....`` It fathoms the mind why someone would Megiyah and THEN develop such self hate.... ...what gives with that...I understand someone born into it with no choice....but you had a choice here....if you do not like them/Us...why join us?

Dear Editor, As we all know one " Do make PEACE with its enemy" after all, who encouraged the formation of HAMAS against the PLO? If we sincerely wants PEACE then we have to swallow our pride, and to think of HOW we could SAVE the lives of both PALS./ISR. The loss of 4000Pals/1000Isr. should be THE RED LINE for all of us. It is sad to see that STEVEN speaks of KILL, rather than peace. Ramsfeld was a good pal of Saddam, and they did talk, din't they/ OBL was a good friend of the americans, when they help him financially/ and with lots of arms to rid Afganistan of the soviets, somebody must have been talking to him, din't they?. Now we see that finally the americans are trying to speak to the North Koreans, rather than beating about the bush, they after all did talk to Gadafi, din't they? and they did have GGOD RESULT, din't they? The english did talk to Jomo Kenyata, Mugabe, Makarios......So If you want PEACE then Talk to your ENEMY.

My apologies, Sullivan. I can see my analysis touched a raw nerve. Danite - you are 100% correct about Torah, and how converts should be treated. Unfortunately, reality is that there are many racists among Israelis. I prefer to be honest about Israelis and Arabs alike.

Why dont you start by reading rami Khoury with the Lebanon Daily Star and then open your mouth again.

You are simply wrong in asserting that Palestinian citizens of Israel can live where they want in Israel. They cannot, at least de facto. To assume that the colonist population would accept Palestinian citizens of Israel into their colonies is a stultifyingly incorrect statement. It is not Mr. Wolman who is the idiot here.

hamas has stated over and over again their agenda NO COMPROMISE-NO STATE OF ISRAEL PERIOD! As my late grandmother used to say "ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THEN WORDS"! IS ANYONE LISTINING!

Keep in mind when you are debating with the haters of Jews and Israel you are debating with very sick people.

Is there a publication like the Haaretz in any of the 22 Arab states?

Therefore, Israel must rely on itself.

Michael, Don't expect much democracy under the current situation, which is both unstable and unnatural to all parties. Sharon's disengagement plan was not done in a particularly democratic way and the Palestinians have way too much Israel occupation breathing down their necks to make any kind of democracy work. Ron HaCohen wrote a nice piece about the silent occupation in his antiwar.com site. You should check it out. Israel stacks the odds against the Palestians and then complain that they can't get their act together. I can't argue with your cynicism, we have seen too much failure and dashed hopes. But we must keep the pressure on the Israelis to make peace and the Palestinians to step up and get their house in order. The two things are related and have to be done concurrently. Someone from a different forum told me you were a settler posing as a northern European. Is that true?

Is hamas ready to speak to Israel?

This piece is bull. The advocate of allowing the PA to not fulfill its responsibilities of disarming Hamas and Islamic Jihad is really excusing the U.S. of its failure to also fulfill its promises. Where is US pressure on the Palestinians to end incitement, and stop completely the terror groups? It has dissipated in the fumes of Saudi oil.

Israel cannot and must not talk to Hamas.Show me one press or media release in which Hamas recognises Israel or its right to even exist.Show me one hint that they intend to moderate their position and try to reach a compromise.A peace agreement can be reached only between moderates in both camps and anybody who will talk to Hamas will loose any credibility on the Israeli side and I dare say on the Palestinian side as well.After all I'm not at all convinced that the ordinary Palestinians want to live under the so called Islamic rule of the Sharia law,honour killings and executions without due process.People may be coerced to live under such a regime but deep down nobody wants to live like in the middle ages.Would you really change the Israeli occupation for a brutal and fanatical regime? Hamas,Islamic Jihad and Hisbullah use this conflict as an excuse to impose a backward regime on the Arab population of the Middle East. I'm sure that Arabs want to be free not only from occupation but also from their indigenous oppressors and live good prosperous lifes like people in the west not like in the middle ages. This conflict is also caused by the huge gap in living standards and socio-economic conditions between Jews and Arabs in Israel/Palestine.The day this gap disappears so will the conflict and Jews and Arabs will live together in harmony.Hamas doesn't want this to happen.They bully their own people into submission to keep themselves and their religious crackpots in power at any cost.

Yaakov/Danite, While I did not see Orquests posting. I think it is imperative to understand who the author is. The Jewish teachings consistently refer to a treatment of a Ger/convert and how a fellow Jew must treat them. However, we are tought that only refers to a Ger Tzedek or righteous convert. In reference to the blood impact of Jewdiasm, the difference it makes is when Yaakov makes remarks about 1948 Israel, as he has in the past, an you question; did he loose his entire family in the holocaust? Did he have his family clinging to humanity, fresh off the boat from the ashes of Europe, attacked by six arab nations? Did he have his family cultivate desert land and or swamp lands with their bare hands and turn them into thriving farms, all the while being attaked by local and Jordanian forces? Did he have family that fought and died in the 1967 war? or the 1973 surprise attack of Yom Kippur? So that is perhaps why the issue of blood and connection to the land can be justified. Throughout history the Jews have had countless instances of Aruv Rav, or hanging on converts (although that term was initiated prior to conversion laws)who although portrayed themselves as Jews who since the sin of the golden calf; were a constantantly creating anger and incitement inside the nation of the Jews. I hope that Yaakov's intentions are sincere.

Just tell me, what makes you think that any action of ISrael would force hamas to change their views? They have declared for years that whole Israel is occupied territory and they want it destroyed. They have never hidden it from the public and still they have support among palestinians. If Israel give up everything and withdraws to 1967 armistice lines, for hamas it means a small victory and one step closer of destruction of the state of Israel - they have no obligation to change that view and I doupt that palestinian authority can deal with them then, if it cannot deal with them now. Whole idea is based too much on assumptions and what you suggest is not a compromise from palestinians.

...nobody should be talking to murderous butchers , sexual perverts who kill innoccent teens in discos and babies in pizza parlors just so they can get SEX in heavon with 72 virgins.... No talk with scum of the earth....

Steven from VSL is correct. Oslo proved it. Palestinians can not be trusted to ...accept settlement expansion blotting there landscap. ...provide security for Israelis while their own security is threatened by rabid settlers. ...appease the settlers by accepting a state made up of 5 cities surrounded by Israeli armor. Come on, people...start proving you want peace by opening a real dialogue and negotiating an end to conflict. There is a good chance Steve can stay in his home...he will simply have to pay his property taxes to the state of Palestine.

I agree with you. Of course Israel must stop targeting hamas leaders, if they cease using violence and actively supporting it. The big question is however, will hamas stop its terrorist activity and convert into political faction or does it try to walk on both ways simultaneously. It would certainly be some advancement if hamas ceased to be terrorist organisation, even if it still means that there is long way to peace.

i have no objection whatever with the americans talking to hamas. however looking at the debates in haaretz over the last few weeks we can summarise that it consists of who did what to whom and when.and the jew-haters like johanes franzen have joined in with glee. the real question is that we are not able to get along.the only solution is to redraw the borders equitably and let each people get on with their lives. the two peoples should live in separate lands .all else is unimportant.

Dear John-- You are so right. Today, Israel's system of government represents a racist idealogy I, for one intend to call it what it is --rascism. The victims are now the perpetrators. How very sad. I will continue to call on fair minded people and governments to boycott and reduce their aid to Israel. I am simply appalled by how their practices daily deny non-Jews their fundament human rights. Now Israelis are breakers of international law, colonizers; opressors and inprisoners and torturers...Their sins are endless. My deepest apologies to those affected by their cruel practices. Dutch

Hi Dude! I agree that a radical move on Israels part wouldbe the most effective weapon they could use on Hamas. As I have called for many times Israel should withdraw unilaterally to the Camp David-Tab-Geneva lines and declare that any further progress will depend on the what the PA does. Let Israel defend from there if needed, but Israel would be wise to take the major propogands tool out of the hands of its enemy and defend from the international consensus. We will see if Hamas can change there spots. If not then worse comes to worse the Palestinians get an immediate windfall of 95% of the west bank and Israel gets to hunker down within the international consensus. I know you dont like when I talk this way buddy but worse comes to worse in this scenario Abbas looks good and Isarael does to and the common enemy Hamas willhave some explaining to do! Cheers Habibi!

Oslo was signed, thus according to the US, Hamas is a terrorist group that must be destroyed by the PA. If the PA cannot destroy it, I guess there is no sense of going on with Oslo or the road map. Either the PA lives up to her commitment, or they don't. You see, Under Oslo, the Palestinians got Area A. They still have it. Yet Hamas was not destroyed as of yet. Guess what, Peres wants to give the PA more guns, the first rounds of guns were not enough. Btw it is not the Guns that is needed by the PA it is the will. Ibrahim you will say the PA people want hamas, so be it, let them want it. That alone declears Oslo and the road map nul and void.

Then why don't the Americans just open a dialogue with Al Qaeda too? Its the same thing they're going to do here.

The ARABS are the ones who have a majority that support a terrorist organization...stop blaming israel for feeding the flames when the arabs have done much less on their side of the bargain...namel cracking down on terror. its a two way street..it doesnt work that israel does everything and ONLY THEN there will be peace...peace must start NOW!!! Israel is the trsutworthy one, not a nation that elects terrorists.

When Arafat signed Oslo, all this was supposed to be taken care of. The PLO is still the PLO and Hamas is still Hamas. What I see is that the so-called Palestinian people cannot be trusted. We Jews can prove we can be trusted. We left Sinai. We are not there at all. See. We proved it. The Palestinians only proved that they can lie and do terror.

The U.S. should have dialogue with all parties to the conflict. After all, they claim to be an "honest broker". But, I wonder what good will it do Israel to talk to Hamas. It appears Hamas is eager to open talks with everyone BUT Israel. Israel needs to talk to the elected leadership of the Palestinian people. That would be Mahmoud Abbas and his team. They need not talk to individual political parties within the Palestinian community. If the World Community can get Israel to declare a complete FREEZE on settlement construction and declare a willingness to return 1967 borders with appropriate security arrangements, Hamas will have no choice but to moderate its position. Israel knowingly feeds Palestinian militancy by remaining intransigent and elusive about her real intentions. Palestinians, today, have no choice but to conclude Israel is intent on holding on to the West Bank. This is the fuel for militant resistance. Palestinian militancy is their last thread of an excuse to continue the dreadful colonization experiment on land that is overwhelmingly populated by Palestinians.

You misunderstand me. This is not a free lunch for Hamas to sit down to talk and then carry on their agenda. Negotiations replaces resistance, the gun. No question. That is a given. BUT, and this is a big but, in order for Hamas to sell that position and agree to a cessation of all violent activity, it must be met with a positive response from Israel. If Hamas agrees to leave off all acts of violence so too must Israel. The formation of policy cannot be at the end of a gun, either by Hamas operatives or the IDF. That's called good faith, when two enemies agree to work toward solving the conflict through negotiations.

I relaise, Danite, that Hamas is an all or nothing operation. I also realise that there are a diversity of opinions in Hamas as there are in the Likud. What we see now is Hamas on the outside. It may be that once they sit at the table and at least verbally commit to negotiate and not dictate that they will prove themselve intractable. It may be that they surprise us once they are no longer part of the rejectionist front. But much depends on what Israel will do and how they will respond. All I am saying is that if they win a significant percentage in the election, we have to give it a try.

Am I not mistaken that half of Likud voted that they would never give up ANY of the territories or am I wrong? I consider this extremism.Political extremism. Hamas hasnt had this type of option.

If hamas doesn't cease their militant and terrorist activity, they have no place in democracy. Therefore, there is no obligation to deal with them until they turn to be only political movement. Talking to them won't solve anything, if they use similar tactics as Arafat did - keep talking and inciting violence at the same time. If they are talked to now, they will see it works and they will get the others fooled to their games. We saw how it works with PLO and Arafat - it took only three monts after Oslo agreements to get more israelis killed than in precending ten years. So, they must first abandon all violence for once and for all, and only after that, they may be talked with. And of course, if they really are going to be partners of peace more than partners of hate, they must abandon their racist campaign and moderate. We have seen this same game for decades now. Every time there has been even small hope, everything has failed. If I were little more cynical, I'd say we will see another failure and never there will be peace. Maybe I'm fool because I still keep up some hope... remains to be seen if hamas will turn into political party or not.

To Orquest: This forum is intended for discussing topics related to Israel and its policies. It is not meant for pschoanalysing in the cheapest fashion those who post on it. Your posting in that regard is not worthy of a response. As for the convert in Jewish tradition, I think Danite has said enough on that. As for my connexion to Judaism, I'm still very much "in it". The Torah mentions "the stranger" 37 times, an indication of the importance the rabbis placed on treating him or her with the greates sensitivity, something you clearly have no knowledge of. As Hillel concluded his advise to the Roman centurion seeking conversion: "Now, go learn".

You are dreaming buddy how that conversation happen between the Likud and hamas? Hamas belives in its ideology to a degree that you will not ackowledge.

"If Hamas places within the upcoming Palestinian elections, then their inclusion must be considered as part of the deomcratic process " No!!! Just because they won an election does not make them any less terrorists who are out to destroy Israel and killed hundreds if not thousands of innocent people!!! does it?? Does their history change??? If they win the election, it is a clear sign that the palestinian people are nowhere near ready for peace and are not serious about a peace deal with israel...simply because they elected terrorists. If hamas is to be taken seriously, they MUST disarm FIRST!!! If you dont think so, then you are simply calling for a longer peace process and the murder of more Jews.

Thank you Danite. I plan on responding to that Orquest posting as well and hope it will be published. I too noticed that it was posted after I left the site. You represent what is best in our tradition. Shabbat Shalom

It would be a regrettable mistake to open up talks with racist thugs before there is any conditional incentive for them to cease the war against Israel. If they would repeal their own charter of principles just like Yasser Arafat had and stop firing rockets into sderot, send suicide bombers, etc. then perhaps it would be a prospect. As a terrorist group they must be marginalized, not accepted with open arms. Shimshon Ayzenberg (thepeoplesisrael.blogspot.com)

If Hamas places within the upcoming Palestinian elections, then their inclusion must be considered as part of the deomcratic process and Washington must deal with them or risk being looked upon as hypocrites throughout the Arab world. Get hamas talking and include them in the process, involve them. Violence is not inherent in their program. If they sit down with Israel, as the PLO did in ther early days of official communication, that can be considered to be a de facto recognition. If they are talking, they will leave off acts of violence. That must be clearly understood by Hamas. But what also must be understood, is that Israel must respond positively and commit to cease all further development and expansion of theri colonies on occupied lands. And above all else, a public commitment that the Gaza disengagement initiates an ongoing momentum and not a further entrenchment of blocs of colonies in the West Bank. So the formula world like this. 1. Hamas agrees to a total cessation of all acts of violence. 2. Israel agrees that the Gaza disengagement is only the first step in reliquishing the occupied territories and agrees to immediately cease all settlement support and activity. 3.Hamas agrees, after the implementation of the above first two steps, to recognise Israel within mutually agreed upon borders. 4. Both parties agree that all topics will be open for discussion, including Jerusalem, refugees and final borders.

Steven,to you I am an idiot. Because your frame of reference is a lot smaller than mine. Your frame of reference is only to those that are members of your exclusive racist club. But unfortunately for you Abraham made me a member of a bigger club,Judaism. That club gives me the right to question and reason,not to call people idiots and liars. What kind of club do you belong to Steven? I certainly wouldnt want to be a member of it. Does your Rabbi condone such behaviour? Maybe he agrees with it too.

It is an expression of hypocrisy and duplicity to condemn the inclusion of Hamas into the Palestinian political process while saying nothing or ignoring the inclusion of Jewish extremist groups in successive Israeli governments. Needless to say, manifestly fascist or quasi fascist parties such as National Union, Mifdal, Yisrael Ba'liya, etc. are much more extremists than Hamas. If need be, all extremist groups, Jewish and Arabs ought to be outlawed...including the Likud general assembly which voted against the creation of a Palestinian state. Khalid

No you don't. Usualy you seem to have problems even recognizing the needs of mainstream israelis. Likud is not very extreme and they managed to negotiate peace with Egypt. So they have actually far better track record than any palestinian...

I couldnt help but notice your nasty little personal attack on Yaakovs Jewishness and person and I wanted to say something about it. For one whose connection to Judaism is so profound by virtue of your blood (is it the pure Israelite blood Orquest? Of which tribe of Israel are you?) you have an amazing degree of ignorance as to the teachings and values of that which you claim to be so close to. The sages taught"he who casts aspersions on a converts identity is as if he had spilled blood" ie committed murderer. Ask any Rabbi what blood has to do with Jewish identity he will tell you NOTHING AT ALL. In fact if he is very orthodox he will say to himself"another Hebrew speaking Goy". I also noticed that your post was written well after Yaakov leaves he site. So lets talk about you abit. Your comments and their timing show the characteristics usually associated with a coward. If you cant beat Yaakov in the ring Orquest dont put on the gloves, your comments are tantamount to admitting he beat you. Yaakov knows more about Judaism and is closer to its spirit and teachings in oneday than you are in a year. He is Shomer Shabat are you?

http://groups.msn.com/FreeOccupiedCoilestine/alightuntothenations.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=398

The position of ?honest broker? if it exists, is not an easy one. The moment the US shows preferences, with whom she wishes to negotiate in the Palestinian Camp, she is no longer an honest broker. It seems as if there is a certain amount of scheming on the part of the US and Israel to weaken Hamas and strengthen Abu Mazen?s hand in the Palestinian Camp. This is a very dangerous game that could easily backfire and achieve the opposite effect. The Palestinians will view Abu Mazen as a US lackey and this would play in the hands of Hamas. There are signs that Abu Mazen?s position is weakening. The US is talking about free and democratic elections in Palestinian street. How can these future elections be free if the US and Israel wish to neutralize Hamas?s participation and whose position amongst the Palestinians is strengthening? If the US and Israel wish to have democratic elections in Palestine, they have to take the good with the bad and not interfere in the internal affairs of Palestine. As the situation stands now, Hamas is gaining support. It would be a good idea if the US remains silent and not show any preference one way or another. Today there is much anti-US feeling in Palestine and it would be dangerous not to believe otherwise. If Hamas does win and Abu Mazen ceases to be the Palestinian leader, a wait and see attitude must be adopted by the US to ascertain whether Hamas ceases its terror and becomes a political movement in order that negotiations may begin.