Are Israel and apartheid South Africa really different?

1) Judeity (or being Jewish) elapses the recent concepts of of religion, nation or ethnicity forged in the Christian civilization. They do not capture the complexity of the Jewish identity. Thus, talking about ethnocracy about Israel is a total confusion of categories. 2) Not only discriminations between citizens and non-citizens does not disqualify any democracy but quite the opposite, this is of the its important prerogative. For instance, some Arabs are Israeli citizens, some others are not. The question is: why are these arab settlers still living in the heart of the historical Jewish land? Because of the absence of the type of discrimination imposed on French people at the hand of Algerian separatists in Algeria in the 60'. Jews in Israel should have done like the freesdom fighters in Algeria probably and send all the Arab settlers back home.

Rubbish to equate Israel with South African apartheid. For an example of 'modern' apartheid look no further than Malaysia. Government policies there are purposefully planned and implemented to discriminate against chinese and indian malaysians.

Is that why your kid playing "Hit a Jew" at school? Preparing Jewish nation to reap rewards in afterlife for turning the other chick?

once again, apartheid has nothing to do with numbers. But we've heard this same tired argument before. Israel occupies territory in which the people, except the Jews, have no rights. Plain and simple. You can say all you want about terrorism, or the need for security. But it does not erase the fact that the Israeli military occupies a territory in which the people, except the Jews, have no rights. Also, you say "What's more, the Palestinian demand for a "Jew-free" Palestinian state" Please enlighten me as to where and when this has been stated? Has a Palestinian leader said this? Please, please let me know.

I think the one clear element is that this approach of segregation is NEVER the answer. Even if done for purposes of insuring security, it is not the answer. The US has had its security undermined simply due to its association with Israel. The answer lies in your conduct. If it does not change, whatever security measures you take will eventually fail. All this from a people and religion that has seen so much discrimination and persecution. Its almost unfathamoble to think a people with the Jewish history can perpetrate such actions against others. Make no mistake, this country will be held to account for its conduct and it will happen absolutely as soon as its supporter loses its comparitive advantage to other nations such as China. You should hope its not too late to change your ways and go about changing them. That does not mean that the Palistinian violence will cease immediately. It means that, over time, it will.

"Shulamit Aloni..described the Apartheid regime with brutal honesty" If roo has been HONEST, he would have INCLUDED, beside her ministerial post, info about Aloni. Such as, she is a board MEMBER of Yesh Din. That she ALIGNS herself TOTALLY with Peace Now. That she is a FOUNDING member of Meretz. All THREE are WELL-KNOWN for their BIASED pro-PALI agendas. Thus NO surprise that roo RESORTS to quoting Israeli LEFTISTS such as Aloni to "PROVE" his point. Sigh....

Shulamit Aloni [the former Education Minister of Israel] described the Apartheid regime with brutal honesty: 'This Road is for Jews Only. Yes, There is Apartheid in Israel' "On one occasion I witnessed such an encounter between a driver and a soldier who was taking down the details before confiscating the vehicle and sending its owner away. "Why?" I asked the soldier. "It's an order,this is a Jews-only road", he replied. I inquired as to where was the sign indicating this fact and instructing [other] drivers not to use it. His answer was nothing short of amazing. "It is his responsibility to know it, and besides, what do you want us to do, put up a sign here and let some antisemitic reporter or journalist take a photo so he that can show the world that Apartheid exists here?" Indeed Apartheid does exist here. And our army is not "the most moral army in the world" as we are told by its commanders." Excerpted from an article by Shulamit Aloni. http://www.counterpunch.org/aloni01082007.html

... South African apartheid was directed at anyone who was black or colored, even if they were not S.African citizens... yours was an escape analogy...

I was in israel and palestine just after the fall of apartheid and the similarities were shocking... in fact the only thing that saved us south africans from continuing our 'cold' civil war (you know bombs on buses, trains, post offices, bars, random shootings and disappearances, security cordon deployments, state banned individuals, detention without trial, brainwashing on both sides) was a policy of truth and reconciliation. Whilst the right will be willfully ignorant to the effects of their policies, the bombs will escalate, no matter how many walls you build. As mandela once said 'zulus and afrikaaners take your guns and throw them into the sea'. That quote could be quite easily adapted to 'israelis and palestinians, take your guns and throw them into the sea'. As long as there is a myopic focus on 'security' to perpetuate what is, in fact, an economic crime designed to provide cheap labour for israel, this problem will remain intractable.

Anyone making the statement that "Israel is an Apartheid state like South Africa" has never been in Soutn Africa during the Apartheid years. Apartheid is a government policy that discriminates against a majority of the population to keep a minority in power. When did those calling themselves Palestinians become citizens of Israel? When did Arabs become a majority of the Israeli population? IF the Palestinians had started with a demand for a single, binational state, there might be grounds for using the word "Apartheid". As long as the Palestinians continue demanding a state of their own, they themselves refute the concept. What's more, the Palestinian demand for a "Jew-free" Palestinian state IS an example of attempted Apartheid. It's easy to throw out slogans and buzzwords, leaving the burden of proving innocence on the accused, repeating a lie over and over doesn't turn the lie into truth.

(retry) "International ("Inter-National") Court of Justice statement on the Separation Wall,2004" And does Pierre REALISE that it was ONLY an ADVISORY - just an OPINION - by the ICJ and NOT a LEGAL ruling. And thus it is NOT binding. And CERTAINLY it is NOT, as BOLDLY claimed by Pierre, an "INTERNATIONAL LAW". "In your opinion, under which jurisdiction do the Palestinians in Gaza and WB fall?" As far as Gaza is concerned, Israel has TOTALLY withdrawn, it is NOW self-governing and hamas has REGULARLY declared that it has LIBERATED Gaza. And the latter to me is GOOD enough for me.

This article couldn't be more correct! We here in Australia always considered ourselves against terrorism and good friends of Israel but now the tables have turned. Now Israel has sacrificed the moral high ground and is nothing deserves no more respect than SA did during the apartheid because that make no mistake that is exactly what Israel is. No more.

Violence is violence. There's no point comparing the 2. What went on under SA's regime is in the past and what happens in Israel/Palestine keeps going on. Both sides are guilty of perpetuating it. It will take very strong politicians to end the mess over there and I'm not sure if there are any who can. It would be more helpful if the US stopped supplying military and 'intelligence' to all sides and worked for real peace in the region. But I suppose that isn't in her interest.

- Buddy - You are extrapolating unreasonably. If YOU were a black in South Africas under apartheid, would YOU have been a good citizen? (Its not a rhetorical question. I'm asking you it.) As for "terrorist ideology" do you not understand that "terrorist" is a subjective word? I'm not sure why you introduce IDF soldiers into the discussion. Are you playing on some patriotism? Don't bother. A life is a life. One IDF soldiers life has exactly the value of anyone else's life. No less. No more. - Liat - Your sentiment is very good and I support it 100%. I am completely non-violent more than almost anyone. If I were a black in Apartheid South Africa (or an Arab in Gaza, or a Jew in old Poland) I would only use violence as a last resort tool. Bombing civilians is always wrong. (There are no exceptions, ever). A person who is not carrying a weapon should never die by a weapon. But... being a human, I know that under duress my values erode and adapt.

true in Israel.There never was Palestinian national identity for Arabs before Israel. Jews were always in Israel and under arab villages are Jewish temples. 850,000 Jews lost everything in apartheid arab world after 48 and had to leave arab countries.The population of arab bedouins living on the edges of swampland were low.The area never had an arab national identity.Jerusalem was always a place for Jews and Mohammed never was there and never mentioned it in koran only Mecca and Medina. Jews did not replace arabs but always had Israel as their homeland.Arabs are in Israeli government,buy land in Israel and have representation in Israeli supreme court. This is not the case in apartheid arab countries or in africa. The holy land was never ever arab

Can everybody(most of those who are posting take a chill pill).The idea that Israel is planning to exterminate Palestinians is as stupid as Palestinians pushing Israel into the sea.They are both dumb idea's that are simply never going to happen.The fact that Israel is a country that affords Jews rights it does not afford to non-Jews is undeniable.Is it an apartheid(it saddens me to admit that in fact it is).Lets be frank here,Israel cannot have its cake and eat it too,if you claim something for security purposes then be upfront about it and say that your segregating your Jewish population from the Arab population for security reasons,it might be wrong in the eyes of the world ,but at least you'll have the dignity of being honest.If I was an Israeli then I wouldn't think twice about doing so,but to claim such policies is not nothing like apartheid is disingenuous at best and a flat out lie at worst.

... because Arabs in Israel proper do not experience the separation which exists in the "West Bank". Inspite of the imperfect situation of distrust caused by the unpredictable slaughter associated with Islamic fundamentalist terrorism, Israeli Arabs have liberty and the opportunity for self-advancement. Unlike e.g. Palestinians in Lebanon, say, or Uygurs / Tibetans in their relative homelands which HAVE been annexed by a huge, expansionist country. Israel has not annexed the Arab population centres in the West Bank or claimed it as part of Israel. To be frank, most Israelis would rather a lasting peace over keeping control, but only if control can be given to a strong, peace-orientated government.

What i find really silly is that many responses like Raphaels resort to what i call the '4 year old excuse"; "sure i broke the vase but but my little brother broke the window!" Why is so hard to focus on the issues raised, and argue them on their merits not on the basis that examples of someone else behavior being worse. If our only answer to any criticism is that there is someone worse than us, we are dooming ourselves to a race to the bottom. As i say to my four your old just because your brother is naughtier does not excuse your actions. Regardless of what our friends or enemies are doing or not doing our actions must be judged on their own merits, and on that basis we leave a lot to be desired.

I remember going to eat lunch at restaurants in Bethleham on Saturdays, because the restaurants in Jerusalem were closed for Shabbat. You could barely find an empty table due to overcrowding by secular Israelis. Then came the Arab campaign of murder. Just as in Gaza, the Arabs were given an opportunity for economic development, but chose war. One day, perhaps, the Arab nations will learn to adapt to the idea of coexistence with a tiny Jewish island in the land of Israel from the Jordan to the Mediterranean in the midst of a sea of Islam. Akiva Eldar should look at a map of the Mid East.

(retry) "International ("Inter-National") Court of Justice statement on the Separation Wall,2004" And does Pierre REALISE that it was ONLY an ADVISORY - just an OPINION - by the ICJ and NOT a LEGAL ruling. And thus it is NOT binding. And CERTAINLY it is NOT, as BOLDLY claimed by Pierre, an "INTERNATIONAL LAW". "In your opinion, under which jurisdiction do the Palestinians in Gaza and WB fall?" As far as Gaza is concerned, Israel has TOTALLY withdrawn, it is NOW self-governing and hamas has REGULARLY declared that it has LIBERATED Gaza. And the latter to me is GOOD enough for me.

"if a Frenchman denies an Arab to sell him real estate, it is a criminal offense" It might be odd for you but this is called racial discrimination a very vicious crime. By the way the same law protects Jewish doctors in France. If not the European court would be happy to hear their case.

Education Minister, Shulamit Aloni. Shulamit Aloni [the former Education Minister of Israel] described the Apartheid regime with brutal honesty: 'This Road is for Jews Only. Yes, There is Apartheid in Israel' "On one occasion I witnessed such an encounter between a driver and a soldier who was taking down the details before confiscating the vehicle and sending its owner away. "Why?" I asked the soldier. "It's an order,this is a Jews-only road", he replied. I inquired as to where was the sign indicating this fact and instructing [other] drivers not to use it. His answer was nothing short of amazing. "It is his responsibility to know it, and besides, what do you want us to do, put up a sign here and let some antisemitic reporter or journalist take a photo so he that can show the world that Apartheid exists here?" Indeed Apartheid does exist here. And our army is not "the most moral army in the world" as we are told by its commanders." Excerpted from an article by Shulamit Aloni. http://www.counterpunch.org/aloni01082007.html

This is absurd. Israel offers Arabs a voice in the Knesset, Israel provides aid to Gaza, Israel has a human rights watch devoted to Palestinians, Israel has laws protecting Arab land (when it provides no threat to security of course), Israel is a democracy with equal rights, when dealing with an area where immense terrorist activity is taking place Israel sends troops into the area to carefully examine the areas instead of simply bombing the areas so lower the civilian casualty rate, are any of these liberties offered to Jews in Arab states? Also, Arab hatred toward Jews is no delusion as anti-Semitic cartoons showing Orthodox Jews and Israeli soldiers drinking Arab blood are popular in newspapers and articlese were written in the 30's approving Hitler's treatment of the Jews (see Haj Amin al-Husseini meeting with Hitler)

Ben-Gurion found the key to solve the Arab question: "security". If you don't want to believe that you are doing an injustice to the Palestinians, and at the same time you want to work toward making Palestine more and more Jewish (and less and less Arab) tell yourself that you are expelling Palestinians for security reasons (like Ben-Gurion told you in 1948) and stealing their land for security reasons (like Zionism is doing all the time). Yes, Zionists really love "security"!

As I recall, the Apartheid system in Southern Africa did not have a legislative system that defended the rights of Black South Africans to do what they want and go where they wanted. However in Canada, so-called treaty Indians (or Native Canadians or First Peoples or whatever) have exclusive right to designated lands upon which non-Natives have no rights, no province has authority. Isn't that Apartheid too?

Do people deliberately mess things just for the sacking of cursing Israel again or what? We are talking about two different realities. Anyone who visits Israel within the Green Line will see a normal country, with rich Arabs-Israelis, Druses, Sircasians, Christians and a normal struggle of national minorities to strengthen its rights. If you cross the Green LIne, on the other side, literally, you will see Apartheid, for sure, but only as a consequence of Occupation and not considerations based on superiority, race or discrimination. When I visited Israel, two years ago, I asked a fellow Arab-Israeli if he would like his city, Nazareth, to be encompassed by the border of the future Palestine State. He told me that if the Arabs in Israel were given the possibility to vote in a referendum, almost 100% would vote for being Israelis forever, even if they had to show allegiance for a Jewish State. I really cannot see this State as racist... unless Arabs are masochists...

That Akiva Eldar is a simplistic and impulsive political pundit is not news, but if it's true (and I have my doubts) that Maj.Gen. Gilad claimed that a strong PA economy means more security for Israelis, then it's time to retire the good (major) general, and to let someone more capable to take his place.

The problem with your reasoning is that it's a tautology: you only recognize those Jews who DON'T assimilate as Jews. Actually, lots 'n lots of Jews assimilate. It's a problem for Jews here in America. They all keep assimilating. However, once they are completely assimilated, they are no longer recognizable as Jews -- for the excellent reason that they aren't. People forget who they were -- and fast. I, for example, appear to have a German Jew in my ancestry about five generations back. The fact is completely meaningless to me. So you notice Jews who either won't assimilate, or haven't completed the process, and announce 'Jews won't assimilate.' No -- 'Jews who won't assimilate won't assimilate.' I could have told you that.

Sorry, Akiva, but I usually like your articles, but I am somewhat taken aback at the sloppiness of today's commentary. You know perfectly well that all Israelis have yellow license plates, whether they are Jews, Arabs, Druze or whatever. Palestinian Israelis (or Israeli Arabs) daily use these "Israeli only" roads in the WB because they are Israelis, and you know this.

Fancy rationalizations by our Jewish friends can't change the facts. In the West Bank, if you are a Jew, you live under Israel civillian law, you can travel to and from without issue, you can hold a passport which allows you to leave the country and return with no isues. If you are a Palestinian, your ability to travel between towns is severly restricted, you live under Israeli military law, you have no control over your destiny and if you dare drive on an Israeli-Only road, you can be shot dead. Any visitor to the West Bank leaves with an unmistakeable image of aparthied...

talk about apartheid never talk about the Rabbi's murder, they only talk about apartheid, which doesn't exist in Israel. Put the roadblock back, and save Jewish lives , that's the only thing that counts.

Pal/brit what land are you speaking of Conqured land? gaza and w.b. both are are israeli soil with squating bedouin/arabs claining rights, The right was won when israel was attacked by 5 (five) arab counties/terratories vieing for the demise of Israel, can you draw a compraison to Joshua conquring Canaan centies ago? Because I can and if Bibi would the world jewery to defend our covenant with Hashem I personally would !!!

The difference between Israel & South Africa is that the SA blacks were not suicide bombers like here. There they had a cause because they were being suppressed and the Arabs are not being suppressed. That is why we need the machsonim here. There is not comparrison between there and here

... is like in a totalitarian state, where anything-goes, as long as it's what is convenient for the baas... ... in any case, so many decades of "order" just become like a bad policy with no time limitation...

Apartheid is simply one ethnic group using laws and force to subjugate others and make them 2nd class citizens. It is one step up from slavery and several down from democracy. Is Israel an apartheid state? * 711,00 Arabs were driven out, none were allowed to return * Jews who have never lived there have the right of return, Arabs who have don't * Building permits are easy for Jews, impossibly fraught for Arabs * Arab homes can be bulldozed on a whim, Jewish ones never * Arabs can be cleansed from anywhere in the West Bank and the land mysteriously turns into building plots for Jews * The racial majority wants to ban commemoration of the Nakba while celebrating the birth and triumph of the Jewish state, * It also wants the minority to swear allegiance to the ethnicity and religion of the majority And on and on. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then... Israel is prima facie an ethnic-supremacist, apartheid nation par excellence. No argument there.

how, if "The Arabs did not take an interest in nuclear "research for peaceful uses" till Iran started" Iraq had a nuclear programme 30 years ago? "Palestinians can use a road that only Israeli number plated cars could use" Good. Now what about the rest of the apartheid West Bank regime? You know, the one that Shulamit Aloni [the former Education Minister of Israel] described so honestly when she said in the following article: 'This Road is for Jews Only Yes, There is Apartheid in Israel' "On one occasion I witnessed such an encounter between a driver and a soldier who was taking down the details before confiscating the vehicle and sending its owner away. "Why?" I asked the soldier. "It's an order,this is a Jews-only road", he replied. I inquired as to where was the sign indicating this fact and instructing [other] drivers not to use it. His answer was nothing short of amazing. "It is his responsibility to know it, and besides, what do you want us to do, put up a sign here and let some antisemitic reporter or journalist take a photo so he that can show the world that Apartheid exists here?" Indeed Apartheid does exist here. And our army is not "the most moral army in the world" as we are told by its commanders." http://www.counterpunch.org/aloni01082007.html

So, preventing Arabs of riding road 443 is apartheid? May I recall the french speaking humanrightniks that some streets in Paris, Marseilles, Roubaix are off limits for non muslims at prayer time, that if a Frenchman denies an Arab to sell him real estate, it is a criminal offence (compare with palestinian death penalty for selling to a Jew), that in several professions in France (law, medical jobs, diplomacy, army, media), there is a quiet numerus clausus against Jews, but affirmative action for "visible minorities".

Posted: "...sending homicide bombers into South African cities to blow up buses, markets and restaurants...." Menachem Begin and his terrorist groups did the same when they tried to get rid of the British, but in the process they also killed many innocent people including Jews. Posted: "...Calling Israel an Apartheid state is a leftist calumny..." Not really. Israel occupied lands that does not belong to them, steals lands that do not belong to them, tortures and bombs the Palestinians, cuts off their electricity, water and medical shipments. If you ask anyone, this is much worse than Apartheid.

Posted: "...The situation in Israel/Palestine is a bit different in SA 90% of the population were black whereas in this situation it`s about equal. Interesting that the US supported the SA government at the time and the current Israeli regimes..." The USA always suppoerts criminal governments and dictators, until they try to change their loyalty to the USA, then they are regarded by america as a terrorist nation.

This is a interesting point in how Israel is practicing a quiet apartheid/ethnic cleansing. Arabs make up 20% of the Israeli population, so they are torelated as they make no threat to the ruling class Israeli Jews. Israel will continue to take as much furtile land as possible while keeping a lock down on the people in the Occupied territories. I will also answer a question to a poster "Why aren't there any Jews living in Palestine/Occupied Territories?" Why would 'anyone' want to live under occupation? and if anyone tries to get into the occupied territories they're either shot by the IDF or turned back into Israel. For those who say Blacks never carried out the magnitude of violence committed by the Palestinians are DEAD wrong. Either you have not read a history book on that country which you would find that the ruling class's violence against the minorities was 10x worse as it is in the occupied Territories than it is the other way around.

We keep focusing on these words and not on what is needed to find solutions. This debate only prolongs the suffering of both sides.

The willingness and eagerness of the liberal (read Left) West to swallow every titbit of Palestinian propaganda garbage is tiresomely familiar. The same copycat trend of the Left in Israel to adopt this nonsense is sickening. As the Israeli Left weakens, its rhetoric becomes more desperate - even unto that which is used by our enemies who bay for our flesh.

Yes, Akiva. It is very different. Israel's treatment of Arabs is more likely compared to Quebec's treatment of Anglophones than to Africa's treatment of blacks. As an example, there is no demand that signs in stores in Ramalah have lettering in Hebrew that is twice the size of Arabic letters.

We can debate moral justifications and historical causation as long as we want. But all must recognize the structural similarities, which every day more and more outweigh the differences, will not be wished away. These political and economic structures proved unsustainable in South Africa. Why would they prove more sustainable here?

It has nothing to do with the situation in Israel which is connected with the country's defense against Arab/Jihadist terror, itself based on racist/religious fanaticism against the Jewish state

well, dear Salem - iT is somehow sad that even during your studies in Germany; you obviously didn't learn that it is not only the "Jews" or "Israelis", who need to "change their mentality" but the Arabs and Palestinians have to do the just same. A shame that nowadays nobody seems to discuss that side of the conflicet anymore! It always takes two to tango! So it's time to stop the bs about who is more original and start to battle Arab racism as well as Israeli one, before it's too late. Compromise is the name of the game and that accounts for you as well - even in Rafah. Blees all of you (who are not racist) and Salam / Shalom

There is an absurdity in comparing Israel or even the situation on the West Bank to Apartheid for 2 simple reasons. A Palestinian can convert to Judaism and become a Jew and an Israeli, stating the obvious blacks could never become whites. It is inconceivable that Apartheid could have existed as it did if 20% of white South Africans were blacks as it is 20% of Israel's population are Palestinians including tens of thousands of Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza. I am sure Mr. Eldar has read the PLO's ( Hamas's) charter but I wonder did he ever read the ANC's freedom charter. Well if he did he would know that in contrast to the PLO who said all Zionists should be forced to leave Palestine the ANC stated repeatedly that whites had the same right as blacks to be in South Africa. The ANC came into existence as the SANNC in 1912 only 50 years later did the ANC turn to violence again in contrast with the Palestinians who have from the beginning of this conflict used violence against Jews and their fellow Arabs. A third interesting comparison is the ANC's attitude to terrorism, the ANC did occasionally use terrorism against civilians but its stated policy repeated often was not to target civilians. All this will no doubt make no difference to Mr. Eldar who much like the settlers seems to get his truths from a higher source. If it was in my power I would I remove every Jewish settlement and its residents from the West Bank

According to Akiva Eldar "One of the myths among whites in South Africa was that "blacks want to throw us into the sea."." I never heard white South Africans express this idea. White fears revolved more around getting slaughtered in their beds. I did a quick internet search to see if I could find some reference to this and found none. Again according to Akiva Eldar "Many of apartheid's practices were formally based on security, mostly those involving restrictions on movement. Thus, for example, at a fairly early stage, black citizens needed permits to move around the country". The system of restriction of movement of Blacks known as the Pass system was introduced at period when violence in South Africa was very low and there was no terrorism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pass_laws a summary of pass laws never mentions security. The Pass system was the key element in enforcing Apartheid. Under Apartheid 87% of South Africa was designated for whites the rest was designate

Apartheid in South Africa discriminated citizens of the SAME nationality. Israeli laws, like in evry other country in the world, dicriminate between own citizens and foreigners (like Arabs from the West Bank). This is common practice unless Akiva thinks that the time came to make West Bank part of Israel.

1. "Occupied lands" is not rubbish. These lands are recognised as being occupied by every nation in the world except Israel, and that view is shared by the overwhelming majority of international jurists. You have changed the demographics and moved in a foreign population. 2. Palestine within the borders of the WB and East Jerusalem is aleady a compromise on the part of the palestinians. The colonists have no intention whatsoever of living as equals with their Palestinian neighbours. They see themselves as the sole owners of the land given to them by divine right. 3. Israel is surrounded by Jordan and Egypt both of whom have lived with Israel nonagressively for over a decade. Saudia Arabia has offered peace rejected by Israel. 4. Israel continues to unleash terror against an occupied population. Just look at Gaza. As for Hamas go back and check the record and see the role Israel played in helping them to power. Divide and rule is an old colonial trick.

No one is more one sided then this man, if you want a demonstration, watch Charlie Rose (or others)on American TV (PBS) when he appears. The principal "apartheid laws" (South Africa)were as follows: The Prohibition of Mixed Marriages prohibited marriage between persons of different races and the Immorality Act of 1950 made sexual relations with a person of a different race a criminal offence. One can say the Arabs practice the above principals, not the Jews/Israel. Those are some examples of his one-sided mind, he might say; but, I bring examples of the other side not only Israel, don?t buy it the man is one sided in his opinions and he should be known as that.

Yes of course. Are there similarities..Yes. The point is that Israeli behaviour towards the Palestineans is wrong so wasting time talking about if they are the same is pointless. It's close enough.

Liat, you said "Violence should never be used to reach one`s political goals." I can't help but wonder... isn't that exactly what Israel did in Gaza a year ago? Isn't that what Israel did in Lebanon? Isn't that what Israel has been doing since '67? Israeli's seize land across the green line, the Palestinians resist, the IDF goes in and settles the argument. When Palestinians lie dying of gunshot wounds, is that not because of Israeli violence?

Israel is not a constitutional monarchy though many of the colonists would like to reestablish a monarchy it would hardly be constitutional. The PM does not need to be a member of the Estsblish Luteran Church nor are the parties organised along religious lines that would exclude non Lutheran Danes from membership due to ideology. Danes are no longer occupying Greenland and telling the indigenous population that Greenland is really Denmark and that the indigenous people do not have the same rights as Lutheran Danes. The danish have moved away from and given up colonialism. Israel still has it and is not only colonising but stealing land and annexing it.

There is no demographic time bomb, proper investigation sho the number of Palistinians are greatly exaggerated. You should check it out, this is not the issue. The issues really are these. 1 To say occupied lands is rubbish, it suggests that the Jewish people have no claim here. But they do, histroy confirms that. 2. The lands are disputed, so what do we do, ideally we have to find a way of living side by side peacfully. But again check out recent history. 3. Israel is surrounded by those who have in the past and many still do now, call for it's destruction and were never willing to accept any compromise. 4. That the Palistinians have a rough time is not indispute, but why is that? The attitude and mind set that would not comromise and unleashed war and terror forced Israel hand. 5 Of course its not nice, I have agreat deal of sympathy for for the innocents who suffer, but who chose Hamas?who unleashed the wars and terror attacks over the last 100 years, supported the Nazis?

There is no comparison between the violence perpetrated by Nelson Mandela and the ANC and the violence perpetrated by Hamas and Hezbollah.

South African laws differentiated people according to their race but of the SAME nationality. Israeli rules differentiate people ACCORDING to their nationality and not race. That is what every country on earth does: has different laws for its own nationals and for the foreigners.

"Apartheid" is yet another example of a word selected for its emotional impact and shock value rather than its actual meaning by the Palestinians and their naive Western apologists. Its theprecise same reason that they use analogies to the Nazis,becauseitis offensive to Jews. Israel's motive in dealing with the Palestinians is safety for Israel's citizens not the "race" of its adveraries. It is a slanderous accusation of racism where there is none, merely as away to cast Israel in an un--deserved negative light.

as far as i've heard the danish national church is established by the danish constitution and it's the only religious community supported financially by the government. furthermore the danish royal family must belong to this church, according to the constitution. so, it's a nice theocracy which you have in denmark. btw: probably you know that denmark has the most illiberal immigration law in europe. many muslims in denmark are very sad about this law since they wish to take their families to denmark, too.

Wrong. Not the delegitimisation of a state but an occupation which you see as something other. As for child rape, Israel certainly is not that, merely one of the leading nations in sex trafficking. So enough already with this anti-semitic crap. The conduct of Israel as a 44 yr old occupier is what makes the world want to vomit and the stain is self imposed. Clear it up and stop with the same anti-semitism bullshit. It's no longer working as a cover of your ugliness.

and the harsh militarily enforced restrictions in place to protect and enable them. but then again, had you included them; your whole premise would disqualified... which it is. too bad though, cuz it "sounded" pretty good otherwise.

Just a few days ago the Israeli Supreme court ruled that, despite their terror attacks,Palestinians can use a road that only Israeli number plated cars could use.That allowed Israeli Arabs but not non citizens to use the road. Apartheid?? Is that what hapenned in S.A.? Did you forget to mention that? Why? Why do you regularly beat the drums for Iran here? Do you want the Republican guard rapist murderers to have a nuclear bomb so they can terrorise the Sunnis? Interesting how you people avoid,like the plague, mentioning that the Sunnis are seriously opposed to a nuclear Iran.The Arabs did not take an interest in nuclear "research for peaceful uses" till Iran started. It spoils a good story and diverts attention from your obssesive hatred. PS No matter how much the Scandinavian states grovel,are in full on denial about what is happenning at home, it does not stop terror at home does it?

In South Africa nowadays they are are lynching Zimbabweans and Mozambicans who are only looking for a better life in S.A.

If things are so bad why aren't all those Arabs going to the Jordanian Dead Sea Resorts?? Any answers to that? Go to the Hebrew University the Mt Scopus Campus,look at all the Arabs there.You can tell the girls they wear tight fitting clothes,high heels and a burqa for modesty.!

Funny people.Just a lot of foam on the floor proves they were here.

By assimilation do you mean like we should have clergy who take sexual advantage of kids in their care? By assimilation do you mean shop till you drop Xams 'spirit'..joke joke? By Assimilation do you mean like we should have supported burning people at the stake? My dear Brit, it was you people who invented the current ME and all this mess is on your head just like in every place you colonized or invaded...India,Pakistan,Afghanistan,South Africa,North America,Australia,so called Falkland Islands,Uganda,Rhodesia,Sudan,Nigeria etc......All the aboriginal peoples were screwed over and their histories questioned and erased.

Tony Silver if I (a Jewish fellow), were to go to Temple Mount and MUMBLE, The Israeli police would detain me, Yes you heard it right, if I go and MUMBLE on the Temple Mount, The Israeli police would detain me, So, who are the ones discriminated against again Mr. Tony Silver? Yes Mr. Tony Silva It is us the Jewish people who are discriminated against in our own country!

u only one who understands reality...these lefties also think shia / sunni divide is cos they love each other

People here are generally confusing what is happening inside the State of Israel and beyond the Green Line in the occupied territory. Take a tour with B'Tselem or Breaking the Silence. Any reasonable human should be able to understand the settlements and settlers do not contribute to a just social order. They are and have always been a huge obstacle for a lasting bilateral peace agreement. Land has been more valuable than peace for the settlers. Capitalism has also played its part.

We are so different from anything like South Africa and apartheid that one would have to go to say the PNA, or Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt or the rest of the Muslim world or even Bosnia to find an example of true apartheid.

The area is pretty aparthoidic how many churches in saudi arabia and bahai temples in iran .

The word is out. Even Israeli analysts call it by its name. No two situations can be identical, but you can confidently say it is apartheid "with Israeli characteristics". Everybody knows it now, but it is considered politically incorrect in our tamed mainstream media and by our cowardly politicians. But soon enough the whole world will get tired of Israel's brutal charade, and demand the same end it demanded from South Africa: one country for all its inhabitants, enjoying equal rights. The world has had enough of apartheid.

Israel presents itself to the world as a secular democracy, where people of all religions have equal rights. But in reality, it?s just a theocracy that discriminates against anyone not Jewish, especially those who follow the religion of Islam.

which target is a delegitimization of the state. Comparing it to a #1 child Rape Capital Of The World-South Africa is ludicrous, attrocious and defies any logic what so ever. Maybe be if it was presented in reverse scenario then I would agree: Jews being black and palestinians as whites with their suicide attacks, missile projectiles targeting civilian jewish areas, murders, stonings and drive-by shootings then I would agree with that statement.

John errs when he suggests that Americans "know" of the vast similarities between South African apartheid and the Israeli equivalent. The overwhelming majority of Americans live within the Israeli/AIPAC matrix--a false world of deception, lies, and coverups, where there is no occupationm and Israel has always sought peace but has been thwarted by blood thirty Palestinians. They are totally oblivious to the existence of the occupation--the very word is virtually verbotin in mainstream US media. Nor are they aware that the only peace which Israel has ever sought was one where the Palestinians quitely acquisced to the wholesale theft of their land. They have bought into the oxymoron of Israel as a Jewish democracy. Unlike in Israel, there is little or no discussion in the US of the immorality of Israel's actions. How can there be when lies are sold as the truth and reality turned on its head. If only Americans knew the truth....and if the few that knew the truth dared speak it...

Israel has many laws which openly discriminate against non-Jews. You can?t call Israel a democracy if it has one law for one person and a different law for his/her neighbor. Check out some of your laws which discriminate in favor of Jewish people and remember that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - it?s a DUCK! http://www.divestmentproject.org/apartheid_laws.shtml

And what caused the exodus of the Jews from the Arab countries where they had thriving communities for millenia? Was it not the core premise of zionism that these communities of Jews were longing for millenia to return to zion? Didnt they leave in droves out of love for zion? Face it. Israel is an apartheid society and this colonist ilk that dominates the government has nothing butr hatred and contempt for those who are not like them and certainly does not believe that the Arabs have any rights as equals in the land of Israel. Kill them, ghettoize them or expel them is their policy.

The Jewish problem over the centuries has been that the majority do not want to assimilate. They do not mind if they are conspicuous and are thus seen as different and arrogant. If they had gone to Palestine as a "homeland" and assimilated, rather than taken it over (by force), we would not have the problems of the ME today.

Would it be OK if the settlers were restricted to their settlements and denied voting right for 60 years in a new Palestinian states? If they had the temerity to react violently could they be shelled with phosphorous? Wont need to fence them in cos the fences are already there aren't they? Exactly how long does Israel expect it can occupy the territories? Surely the rules of occupation did not anticipate a 60 year occupation? Take a lesson from the US hand it back to Abbas and get out like the US intends in Iraq and Afganistan. You need a state actor to deal with for your own security.

The Israeli form of apartheid is distinct from that of South Africa. It is nonetheless a form of partheid. Israel itself is an ethnocracy in which non-Jews are not euqal, cannot be equal to Jews. Religion is the defiing factor in defining full citizenship. There is a veneer of democracy but it is in all aspects partial and the element of ethnos overides every other consideration in civic life. The idea of transfer, a form of state sponsored ethnic cleansing has received legitimacy in the current government. Security, that overarching zionist euphemism for blatantly racist policies, is offered as justification. As for the occupied territories, the inequalities are such and the land policy so transparent that is is little different from South African apartheid. Hence, Israel is indeed a racist, aprtheid state that justifies its racism with bogus security arguments that have been proven to be nothing but a sham for what the government of Israel is doing in Israel and Palestine.

Why , before Arabs unleashed terror against Israel , they could travel freely to any place at any time of the day or night in and out of Israel ? If it is apartheid then that would never happen . So what changed ??? And the true answer to this simple question turns Akiva's idea into a big balloon full of hot air .

I wish I could suggest that the writer of this Article has developed for the past 70 years; he is still functioning in the firmament of Golda Meir whose attitude "The White's Man Burden" she still kept even as Prime Minister: and when confronted by the demands for Justice by the Black Power, she had "the common-sense" by saying "there are not nice, they don't speak Yeddish". Akiva has grown in years but he keeps repeating himself in the hope that otheras will see through his compassion and civil discourse between Palistinians and Israelis. He revert to the Anti-Colonialism of the 60s without discerning the changes that occur since then, and would like you to believe that a case in SA, where 40Million people were led by 4million suprematic group, is at the same level in a small piece of land that 6million Jews are in charge of less than 3million whose majority call for a State, in different piece of land. Even If I were to consider Akiva as an ethnograph, he wouldn't even understand .

Israeli apartheid is the same as South Aftrican - immigrants abusing the native population.

International ("Inter-National") Court of Justice statement on the Separation Wall,2004: "The Court finds that the construction by Israel of a wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and its associated régime are contrary to international law." In your opinion, under which jurisdiction do the Palestinians in Gaza and WB fall?

disappear.No walls,no check points..... Magic ins't it.

what shall we call it than? Segregation? Cause it's obvious that on the Westbank Jews and Palestinians don't mix with separate rules and standards of living applied solely on base of race.

To anyone who has properly witnessed the actions of the Israeli authorities and the settlers in the occupied territories there can be no doubt that discrimination and violence are systematically directed at the Palestinian population. When the goal is achievement of 'Greater Israel' how could it be any other way? The settler ideologues have no qualms in expressing their conviction that only Jews have rights. It is the more 'centrist' crowd who try so hard and so unconvincingly to deny the evident manifestations of that conviction.

Real appartheid means a government policy to segregate people on basis of color or religion. The Israëli government did not put barriers between moslems and Jews, neither did it between black and white. there are plenty of muslims holding Israëli ID cards living in TA , Haifa Jerusalem and other places without any restrictions. The barrier is more or less on the border of Judea Samaria to protect Muslims and Jews alike

Sir, All International (inter-national) Laws deal with nations. There is not the single international Law applicable to non-state entities. Your position is unfounded.

In the West Bank, outside of Ramallah. South Africa had its quisling blacks and townships with some pseudo economic independence, partial autonomy as such. After all, apartheid means separation. Separate towns, separate roads and separate lives. The big difference is that SA wanted to retain its black population, needing it for cheap labour, whereas Israel wants rid of the Palestinians-so in the words of Moshe Dayan speaking of the Palestinians..."you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads".

The obsessive use of the term apartheid in relation to Israel was planned at the infamous Jew-haters' Conference in Durban a week before 9/11. The Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) - a body that has since wrested control of the UN and the EU from democratic countries and is now moving to make criticism of Islam an international crime - co-ordinated with left-wing NGOs a campaign to demonize and delegitimize Israel through similar calumnies. Does this article mean that Haaretz was part of that long-term Islamic project? I wouldn't be all that surprised...

anything new? I don't seek any gain of knowing Arab holidays. I in no way insult myself by demeaning an Arab when he celebrates. I think it's normal when people don't know, or surprised of each other tradition. Or even reject each other tradition, as long as the rejection is an act of mind and realization of belonging to a particular, deliberately chosen, stream. In fact what you propose is not a security, but a sort of a hive, where people are not "secure" but "defensive" by means of emulating any and every environment. Don't you understand that this is an extreme form of hostility of prey? A "security" is when your life is valued, no questions about traditions or anything else asked ( unless of course you eat people for breakfast as part of the tradition ). This is the security Arabs enjoy in Israel. That is why Israel is not apartheid.

usually mr. eldar criticizes israel when she doesn't obey (in his opinion) to this or that universal convention. however, now suddenly he demands indirectly that israel shall violate some of these conventions by complaining that israel uses "separate areas and separate laws". he even goes so far to use this "argument" as a justification for a comparison between israel and the south african apartheid regime. however, the situation of a state like south africa during the apartheid regime cannot be compared to the situation of an "occupied territory" like the westbank since usually to "occupied territories" there apply different laws based on this or that convention (e. g. the hague convention or the geneva convention). such the geneva convention says, among others, that the laws of the occupied power shall remain effective and shall be observed by the occupying power. when israel uses different laws in the westbank it's therefore no apartheid but observing the article of the geneva convention. according to the geneva convention it's also allowed to establish "safety zones" (mr. eldar's "separate areas") in "occupied areas". it's disappointing that mr. eldar does not inform correctly about these facts but instead conceals them and such decries israel.

Wrong! It means "separation", literally "Apartness". The numbers don't matter. Why don't you check your facts before you post nonsense here?

Of course Israel is Apartheid in the West bank there can be no denying it. In Israel proper it is more complicated. In theory the arab minority enjoy the same rights as the Jewish majority. In practice they are discriminated against at every step. For example there are many arab towns and villages in existence before Israel was even founded without access to tapped water when next door are well supplied kibutz and Israeli towns. Try getting a housing permit in Jerusalem if you are of arab descent. Look at any statistic of public provision of services and you will see institutionalised discrimination. This is short sighted. Poorer less educated people have more children and this will eventually undermine zionism (its intellectual foundation already shaky). Nether is having a dozen kids the answer as settlers propose. There is one land with finite resources...

minds can not differentiate. But propaganda is devised for the primitive and the malicious.

Just because Apartheid in SA meant a minority ruling over a majority, doesn't mean it has to be that way to be Apartheid. The word simply means separate in Afrikaans. Later, it was changed to a discriminatory policy called "separate development." Does that sound familiar? I am amazed to find that Jews here don't know when the Muslim holidays are or what they are for and Muslims don't know the Jewish holidays. I know both and I'm from the states and have only lived here for 4 months. Isn't anyone the slightest bit curious as to other cultures here? People seem really clueless and uninterested. Even the Ethiopian jews are slighted by the other jews because of their status/color. This whole country is based on separate development, separate schools, etc. If you want a multi-cultural society, you have to have a constitution that treats everyone equally and also brings people together. You will never have real security until you know and accept each other's culture and traditions.

Its called the demographic bomb. We had it and lost. Israel is going to be hit by it sooner or later. Apartheid is right. It means, I cannot be consumed by a majority who took up residence in my country, whom I provided work for. This is the parameters of the arrangement, they can work here, but I will enforce apartheid if they want to vote me out of my way of living after I provided them a livelihood. Its not about color, its about preserving my way of life. The 1994 election in South Africa was the war in which the Afrikaans race/culture was killed. A few other minor groups too. Nobody knows, nobody cares. If everything is taken from you without a bullet, it feels like someone raping your wife, and you and the rapist embrace one another after wards. But like I said, nobody cares. PS: I do not claim no evil was done in the name of apartheid, but like religion, good in principle but often tainted by incidents.

"Settlements are a lousy idea"- yes, indeed, the Mossad suggested inasmuch on 14 June 1967. "The segregation of settlers from Palastinians on the West Bank is nevertheless a consequence of violence against settlers" - History always starts with violence against the innocent settlers. "Before the first Intifada, where were the separation barriers and Israeli only roads?" Before 1967, where were the settlers? We can play this chicken and egg game for thousands of years. If we are asking about civil rights of Jewish settlers in a Palestinian State, we will have made excellent progress toward a bilateral peace agreement. We are also going well beyond anything Israel has done; after 61 years there is still no Israeli Consitution or Israeli Bill of Rights.

South Africa was a country where a small white majority provided unequal rights to its African majority. Israel is a country in a low grade war with the Palestinians, who are not Israeli citizens. Just as we in South Africa do not allow use of undocumented people from Zimbabwe and Mozambique to use our highways, Israel has the right to restrict use of its highways away from nations that are at war with it. Mr Eldar's comparison is hurtfyl to true victims of apartheid and he should be ashamed at himself for making a living off lies

the apartheid rgime did not slaughter innocent civilians like the IDF does . Even the south african goverment under Zuma has recently labelled israeli policies to that of the apartheid system.

Akiva Eldar has it completely wrong. I was there. Apartheid was about the word *apart*, meaning whites and non-whites were to live apart, the latter being forced into separate areas. In practice, of course, apartheid was very much worse - a whole string of statute racial laws which affected every moment of non-whites lives. It was really much like the Nazi-era, without the Holocaust. Akiva, don't show your ignorance. In Israel, Israeli Arabs have full rights - in practice not perfect, admittedly. As for the Palestinians, whatever injustice is served upon them is a direct result of their intransigence in not wanting to reconcile and come to the peace table.

Akiva Eldar, not untypically, is engaging in simplistic reductionism. Israel is by no means perfect on the question of religious and national equality, but then again I'm sure he would hard-pressed to find a country that is perfect (witness the Muslim ghettos surrounding Paris, for instance, or the ban on minerates in Switzerland). Apartheid is an ideology that holds the blacks are racially inferior to whites and must be separated. No equivalent ideology exists in official Israel; indeed, all the barriers separating Israelis from Palestinians were erected for security reasons years after the occupation began. A Palestinian holding Israeli identity card can travel freely, which couldn't happen in an apartheid regime. Visit a ward at Hadassah hospital or the Malcha shopping mall, which are both filled with Palestinians. In Apartheid South Africa that would have been ideologically impossible. The Apartheid label is propaganda, not the stuff of a presumably thoughtful op-ed piece.

No Arab supreme court judges,politicians,ministers,professors teaching ALL Israeli students,professionals,military officers etc etc No Arabs living in Tel Aviv Haifa jerusalem Beer sheva? Anything for a headline that gets the hateposts going. Imagine how long you would last writing this stuff in reverse in the peace loving neighbours.

in the West Bank, outside of Ramallah.South Africa had its quisling blacks and townships with some pseudo economic independence, partial autonomy as such.

Go to www.genocidewatch.org and see which countries are listed-South Africa is now on the list. If Israel caves to the Palestinians then Israel will be on that list too. Enough said.

We want instant divorce from Israel. Unfortunately for you it involves lifting the occupaiton and staying inside your own Jewish homeland, which does not include Palestine

The parameters that decide who is 'chosen' or not is different. If you are not Jewish you are a Goy. It may not be deliberate policy of the Israeli government to create an apartheid state, it may not even be the wish of the Israeli people. But the fact is Israel uses religion as a way of deciding how to share resources, with one religion recieving more than another.

they all watched as Jewish people erased in 1945 in silence. Stephan Tsweig finished life of his own, he believed civilization met catastrophe. You should read his books to grasp this... As far as today's Sweden, Turkey, UK, US, Norway... you are not shying away are you? Here is a bone for you to chew, there was Russian Tsar rule back in 1917. The Tsars maintained Cherta Osiodlosty. By your standard this regime was careful and fair, borrowing wise rules from the future year 2009, when honorable President of United States Barak Obama picked up the baton. Well... for your information, Russian people had an opinion on the matter. The Social Democratic revolutionary government of Mr. Kerensky in February of year 1917 declared Cherta Osiodlosty to be darkest spot on the Russian soul and declare this to be an gravest crime against humanity that was repealed immediately and irreversibly. How did you manage to live to meet this day and age to be so ignorant of history, Pierre S?

Only when the jewish and palestinian peoples in one state protected by the idf the usa and europe against the holocaust deniers and neonazis and neo-communist genocide satanists will peace develop.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it must be apartheid.

are more like Henry VIII's than South Africa's power sharing solution. you know..off with their heads!

Apartheid my ass, Before the Arabs of the WB and Gaza before they started their little Intifada, they were free to move, free to pass into Israel, drove on the same roads as Israelis did, no restrictions what so ever. As the Arabs evolved with their ways of killing Israelis, from the stone & rock, to the knife & the Axe, to the sniper & the road avenger, to the suicide bomber & the bus bombs, restrictions were put into action to stop this barbarism and daily killing. What Apartheid are you talking about, are we not aloud to protect & defend ourselves from terrorist acts? Why doesn`t Mr. Akiva Eldar tell everybody here what is going on in the Golan Heights? How is it that when the ?enemy? within us (loyal to the Syrian country), is quiet and does not do an Intifada, or kill Israelis, my country Israel accepts him, gives him all the freedom in the world, no checkpoints, no restrictions, no nothing! Apartheid my ass, I would be surprised if for once Haaretz publishes my comment on my first try, or publishes it at all!

obviously you are ignorant of the subject. Per Wikipedia: [...] The crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime." [...] Indiscriminate rocket bombardment of kindergartens and homes, Cherta Osiodlosti rechristened by honorable President of United States Barak Obama "freeze"... suicide bombings committed by a community of 1.5 bn Muslims against 12 mln Jewish people. Fits description. With the ratio of 1.5 bn to 12 mln these actions however transcend apartheid, as in "race dominance". It is means to committing genocide. And the degree of commitment can be traced throughout by looking at examples, including Daniel Pearl and Gilad Schalit.

In a democratic country, like Israel, the majority rules. In South Africa, it was a minority that imposed its will on a majority. This does not mean that minorities should be mistreated or segregated. But in Israel's case terrorism creates insecurity and fear. As long as both sides regard each other as lesser humans, there will always be violence. But if South Africa managed to make peace, however fragile, I am sure Israel and "Palestine" will also.

Israel does not compare itself to its neighbors. Israel calls itself a Western democratic state. "A villa in the jungle" as Benny Morris puts it. It justifies every action it takes as security and self defense - no matter how unjustifiable the action may be. The opressees have become the opressors. There are Jews who live in other middle east coutries that could easiliy leave if they so chose. 25,000 in Iran alone. Take a closer look at the situation beyond the green line. Do not confuse the State of Israel with the settlers desire for the Land of Israel. If you felt apartheid in South Africa was unjust, then would certainly think the situation in the West Bank was unjust.

call it whatever you want but the current situation in the Westbank is a ruthless form of segregation

And what wouold be the basis for the Arabs to trust Israel?

Quick rebuttal: 25,000 live in Iran!

usually mr. eldar criticizes israel when she doesn't obey (in his opinion) to this or that universal convention. however, now suddenly he demands indirectly that israel shall violate some of these conventions by complaining that israel uses "separate areas and separate laws". he even goes so far to use this "argument" as a justification for a comparison between israel and the south african apartheid regime. however, the situation of a state like south africa during the apartheid regime cannot be compared to the situation of an "occupied territory" like the westbank since usually to "occupied territories" there apply different laws based on this or that convention (e. g. the hague convention or the geneva convention). such the geneva convention says, among others, that the laws of the occupied power shall remain effective and shall be observed by the occupying power. when israel uses different laws in the westbank it's therefore no apartheid but observing the article of the geneva convention. according to the geneva convention it's also allowed to establish "safety zones" (mr. eldar's "separate areas") in "occupied areas". it's disappointing that mr. eldar does not inform correctly about these facts but instead conceals them and such decries israel.

Ask Ezra Levy about leaving Iraq. "I went from the garden of Eden to Israel." -from Witness/AJTV. Ask the 25,000 Jews in Iran why they do not leave.- NyTimes 23Feb09.

"Stephen Greenberg wrote 'South African blacks weren`t sending homicide bombers into South African cities to blow up buses, markets and restaurants.' Your message is, at best, misguided. Maybe they weren`t, but shouldn`t they have been?" Does that justify blowing up innocents? Or do you justify that by saying,"They were IDF soldiers anyway, and the children were going to be." Do you believe in the terrorist ideology, Walter?

"It is an occupation. In accordance with international law". Well, here is your CHANCE to CLEARLY and SPECIFICALLY state which "international law" or laws SHOW without ANY doubt that gaza is OCCUPIED. Hint - I am NOT holding my breath. As for your "rules of a moral universe", norway is GIGGLY besides itself to give the Nobel PEACE prize to a president whose country is waging WARS in several countries. So excuse me while I PUKE.

"Tutu knows the smell of fame and money. That is how he talks." Yes of course, Tore. Archbishop Tutu is all for fame and fortune, and probably unreliable. Just like President Carter (anti semite), Judge Goldstone (self hating Jew), Nelson Mandela (probably anti semite, too), Mary Robinson, the EU, the governments of Sweden, Turkey, UK, US, Venezuela, Iran, Norway...(ref FM Lieberman). Or perhaps.....?

looking at it from a different angle, Israelis have the right to defend themselfs, thier means of defence should not be critized. You want them to be sitting ducks so that your Islamic Butchers can do their work easily. God is watching!

I agree with #22 but wish to add that the Arab world has basically cleared all the Jews out of their countries (estimated at well over 700,000 in the 1940s) and till today treat their minorities (Copts, Christians, Kurds etc) with institutional discrimination...Apartheid was based on a cruel religious and racist superiority of the minority whites over the majority blacks. The ongoing conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is about the terms of a divorce...the white/black conflict in S.Africa was about the terms of a marriage. Let's hope that sanity prevails.

"...it could be claimed that there is an occupation...". ..."israel will be responsible for maintaining order in the west bank..". Wrong, Cipora. It is an occupation. In accordance with international law and the rules of a moral universe, Israel is responsible for the safety and well being of the population in the occupied territories. This includes Gaza. Instead, you are waging war - including a medieval siege - on the people under your protection. Merkavas, F16, drones and Apaches against civilians. Quite simply apartheid, racism, war crimes and theft of land, condemned by the international community. Write whatever you want, Israel's behaviour cannot be excused.

In answer to your question "Shouldn't they have been? (the blacks sending homicide bombers 2 blow up buses, markets and restaurants). The answer is NO! Violence is never the answer. Yes you can fight the system, but you can do it without loss of life. U can rally, use the media and in today's day and age yo can use the internet to show suffering and wrong doing. Violence should never be used to reach one's political goals.

..there is little question there is a definite comparison to South Africa apartheid. However, for something to be considered apartheid, it does not have to be exactly as it was in South Africa. Inside the State of Israel, Israeli Arabs do not have all the same rights as Israeli Jews, the marriage law is one obvious example. This does not qualify it as full apartheid inside the green line. The Palestinians living in the West Bank is a completely different issue. The article is referring to "institutional discrimination" in the West Bank. There is no question Jews and Arabs live under a completely different set of laws. The laws of the State of Israel apply to the settlers, and the laws of occupation apply to the Palestinians. If one cannot travel to witness this apartheid, Lords of the Land gives a great explanation of the occupation.

the difference. Yes, there really is and was a big difference. Using the word apartheid only invokes South African history- a history that is nothing like Israel. Another article in Ha'arets mentioned route 505 as an apartheid road (which it never was), this particular road in this article is a dangerous road which has seen constant shoot and run fatales by radical extremists Palestinians against Jews travelling it. So let it be open yet please write about the next fatality in your paper. Using the word apartheid is wrong and not justified. Use the word segregated instead and then explain why it is so.

Labels like "terrorism", "colonisam", "genocide", "apartheid" and "ethnic cleansing" or "racial discrimination" never fit. The way Palestinians are treated differs from the way the non whites were treated in South Africa (but both are/were crimes against humanity). Still when I had to choose one word to explain the situation in Israel the word "Apartheid" would be a great candidate. Lets hope it ends the same peaceful way.

Tutu was a beneficiary of the aprtheid industry. During the worst, he sent his kids to sweden to elite schools.Tutu knows the smell of fame and money. That is how he talks.

The author fails to include in his editorial several important factors. However, I will only use one. The state of Israel was attacked immediately upon its foundin, in addition, the PLO was founded with the sole purpose of destroying Israel, 3 years before the six day war. when some one wants to kill you and could care less about who you are or what your position is. (If we are to be intellectually honest) The reaction is not similar to apartheid that is self defense.In addition, I take issue that Jews who came to Israel are like the Dutch. The Dutch came to gain from the natural resources of South Africa and maintain their position to gain economically. What natural resources did/does Israel have? diamonds? iron ore? etc.. No what roads or building were there in the 1800s. And unlike the Dutch we have a right to be in Israel.

My recollection is that South African white's religion conveniently suggested whites were superior to non whites. And so they were quite religious. Most white South africans were and are also generally pretty good people, and many treated blacks and coloureds pretty well; helping the post apartheid regime be more peaceful then it could have been. Their fear of what 36 milion non whites might do to 4 million whites was perhaps understandable. 2 lessons; the parallels with Israel are very real. Apartheid was still very wrong; and to their collective credit they moved on. Israel needs to do the same.

in the West Bank, outside of Ramallah.South Africa had its quisling blacks and townships with some pseudo economic independence, partial autonomy as such.

If they are treated so well (if if if IF) I wonder why they are complaining all the time? because their country is disappearing under bulldozers?

* In SA whites where not indigenous to the country. Jews have always lived in the Israel * In SA whites are a minority. In Israel Jews are the majority. * In SA only whites could vote. In Israel Arabs can vote and have full rights by law. * In SA, black could only work in specified areas.. In Israel, Arabs can work where they please. * In SA, blacks had separate hospitals. In Israel all hospitals are shared * In SA, blacks had separate schools. In Israel, Arabs and Jews share the same schools and universities. * In SA, black had separate toilets. Not In Israel. * In SA, there where no regional wars threatening the existence of the white population. Israel is still fighting for its independence. Eldar does not believe this. He likes to think we have peace loving neighbors who reject Islamic terror. Go and help some other nation to commit suicide Eldar, please.

That's not correct.The apology was of a far more general nature and carter only ever specifically mentioned apartheid and Israel in the context of an 'apartheid *like* regime in the territories'.

There are no disputed territories. There is a land, called Palestine where its inhabitants have lived from time immemorial, which have been invaded and occupied by the descendants of Kasakstan's converted Jews with the support of the US. read carefully: OCCUPIED, by FOREIGN ALIENS. There is no dispute about it. YOU are the invaders, and will follow you route to ruin.

People please look up some facts before commenting. Arab Israelis enjoy same rights as the Jewish citizens. The Arab Israelis also enjoy the highest standard of living out of all Arab countries and guess what is next...the Arabs of the Occupied Territories. It is the Arab countries that don't know how to take care of their people.

Apartheid South Africa didn't pretend about what it was doing. Israel segregates all be it by religion rather than colour and then denies that it does so. Israel is an Apartheid state pure and simple, but it has to be to provide for the settlers who have become accustomed to a certain lifestyle which they don't pay for.

If not, then its not apartheid.

the palestinians have a president, a prime minister, ambassadors, a foreign policy, a security force, prisons, their own laws, their own schools, their own economic policy, their own elections, partial but quite significant autonomy. what is presently taking place in the west bank is not apartheid. at most, it could be claimed that there is an occupation. hence, israel cannot impose its own laws on palestinians in the west bank. furthermore, israel has the obligation to maintain order. what the final border will be must be the result of bilateral negotiations between israel and the pa. until such negotiations are concluded and their results fully implemented, israel will be responsible for maintaining order in the west bank.

Having lived in Apartheid S Africa and Israel, Eldar has no understanding of the origins and practices of SA Apartheid. It was about promoting and protecting white afrikaners, as a result of the Boer war and afrikaner poverty. It was designed to get a minority to control the majority. Using the word apartheid to Israel's issues insults the victims of apartheid and the victims of terror in Israel.

I believe people should wake up and stop playing with words already and stop telling lies and spreading false history and propaganda. Stop the terror. Israel is an apartheid state, there i said it! Bring down the wall and let's reason, let us think for a plan based on justice and equality.If this goes on, Israel will end up victim of her own propaganda.

Someone who knows about apartheid: "South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu has accused Israel of practising apartheid in its policies towards the Palestinians. The Nobel peace laureate said he was "very deeply distressed" by a visit to the Holy Land, adding that "it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa"." Desmond Tutu in 2002.

The difference is not comforting, however. It is alarming. Really alarming.

You say does not exist in verb form? Well, when it can be, you will know the difference. Until then, can't be compared!

Is it still Apartheid? And what if it's sometimes better than Apartheid? Is it still Apartheid? Is there a difference between Apartheid and apartheid? Why not call it creeping theocratization (CeeTee for short)? Or how about Elohism? The parallel with Saudi Arabia is inescapable and really quite apt, no matter how distasteful it may appear to many. At any rate, for all who are unable to relinquish the descriptive "democratic" for the State of Israel, it's time to take a stiff downer and to think long and hard.

Is very sad that people that live in the secure towns of Tel Avivi or Hertlia do no understand what kind of world we have around us. Because you try to compare a Western European world with Midle East. I used the 443 road before and after the killing ogf many people by palestinians and that we colled the Kiling zone for long time until they were forbiden to use the rode. Can you and the Supreme courttake responsible for any new killings. Iwant to see that

If Israel acted like its NUMEROUS neighbors, there would no longer be ANY arabs left in Israel. I worked to defeat apartheid in SA. The comparison is ludicrous and far-fetched. Why is apartheid AGAINST jews acceptable? Why is an arab country with NO Jews an acceptable form of apartheid. Double Standard and willful blindness.

obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. Per Wikipedia: [...] The crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime." [...] I find this description to the combined indiscriminate firing of kassams into homes and kindergartens, Cherta Osiodlosty, re - christened by the honorable President of United States Barak Obama as "freeze", and suicide bombings to be exact match to prescription because the target of these atrocities is chosen on the bases of community ethnic origin. No other community having land dispute in the world subjected to similar treatment. Atrocities prosecuted daily by 1.5 billion community, enough to exterminate 12 mln Jewish p

since its birth. it touts itself loudly to the world as a democracy and a free and open society...while quietly enacting laws and policies aimed directly at the ethnic cleansing of the palestinian people from its midst. its "abandoned property law", the denial of re-entry to any who leave, denial of building permits, home demolitions, its settlement enterprise, destruction of orchards, vineyards, and farms for "security" reasons, et al...they're all for that purpose. its NOT just in the west bank either; its "government" policy. it's built into its laws, infrastructure, and civil administration. but it's done oh so very quietly...and THAT is the difference.

Democracy can leave the largest single group subordinate to a collision of minority groups. The bill of rights protects us all.

whatever Anti - Semite can please himself with... 20% of Israel is Arab population, nobody lay a finger on ( most importantly their own Arab brethren from outside Israel ), except suicide bombers. Those murdered Jewish and Arab people... You guys dream up some fantasy lands... and then you start legal debates, liberation movements, demanding this and that... Get a life. Israel is under brutal siege for the past 60 years, and it has gotten only worse in 2000. There isn't Cosovo anymore the randomize Arab eye from the the golden roofs of Ierushalaim. Or is there?

Australia wrote the apartheid laws adopted by South Africa in an attempt to keep the "blacks" away from the illegal squatters. We called them squatters because it was considered less inflammatory that thieves. Can't see any difference between that, South Africa or Palestine.

That's not the definition of APARTHEID (you spelled it wrong buddy). Apartheid- noun 1. The policy of racial separation used in South Africa from 1948 to 1990. 2. By extension, any similar policy of racial separation. It says nothing about a minority ruling over a majority. But I'm glad you mentioned that in Israel, the Majority uses its power to disenfranchise the Minority. Many ochlocracies have existed throughout history. The Third Reich is another example of an ochlocracy.

During my study period in germany , about seven years, i have never experienced any kind of discrepancy or racism . But here in my home land,the occupied palestine , we the original inhabitants of this holy land live daily with the worst kind of racism. I really wounder why the jews have not learned from their old and recent history?! If they really want to live in peace and prosperity in the middle of middle east population, then they must change their mentality as soon as possible. Otherwise their fate is predetermined by themselfs.

Especially if you rely on Gilad Atzmon.Israel is still grappling for establishing (even including territories) a tiny democratic state which grants civic rights to its arab population. Israel is ready to negotitate dispute territories and is open to the establishment of a palestinian state. Israel has reacted in Gaza after 6000 rockets fire into its territory and after dismantling settlements. Israel has withdrew from territories after peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Only an imbecil like Atzmon can define Israel as some sort of evil state. Israel is sometimes trapped in its own stupidiy, especially with settlers. However, they are "Mother Teresa" if we compare their deeds with those of Putin and even with those of Obama. By the way...how many died today in Afghanistan or Yemen...or maybe Iraq or Pakistan????? Talking about the evil...ughhhhh!!!!

1. Most of the White South African population has been living there for four hundred years. They really are from South Africa; it's not just an ideological assertion. 2. The Apartheid regime did create genuinely autonomous areas for Blacks to live in. 3. I can't be bothered to look it up, but I doubt if any massacre of Blacks by Whites in South Africa in the last fifty years exceeded a hundred people. Sharpeville was the most notorious: sixty nine were killed there. 4. At no point was Apartheid South Africa the recipient of massive aid and diplomatic support from outside. 5. They gave up, decided they were wrong, and formed a multi-ethnic democracy with equal rights for all.

The same way that equating Nazis with Israelis is an insult for Holocaust survivors, equating Israel with Apartheid is an insult for the millions of blacks who suffered from it. In Jerusalem the sell T-shirts with the Palestinian flag and the inscription " Free Palestine". Is this Apartheid? Arabs and Jews are treated side by side in Israeli hospital and study side by side in Israeli univesities. Is this Apartheid? And why do the Arab villages in Israel dont want to become part of a future Palestinian state? Certainly not because they feel they live in an Apartheid. Shame on whoever uses these terms as " fireworks".

In Israel there are more Jews than arabs, so it is a majority ruling a minority. Lets get our definitions right before we start making such conclusions.

Why is security necessary? Answer this first... Why are all the areas in the region, which came under Arab control, wiped clean of Jews?

What an insult to those who suffered from true Apartheid. This is the same as when haters of Jews and Israel compare Israel to Nazis or holocaust denial. We see people who fabricate the truth and distort reality. The only comparison I see here is that the ANC was a terrorist organization that killed countless innocent women and children as the PLO has and does. The comparison ends there.

We cannot drive on our own roads without threat of being murdered for being a Jew. Arabs are allowed to travel freely throughout Israel while Jews are segregated and banned from Eastern Israel. Many Arab nations do not allow Jews to even enter their nation and the PA law and the law in Jordan states that anyone who sells land to Jews will receive the death sentence. That sounds more like apartheid to me.

The SA Jews were after minerals not land. Yes both governments and legal systems were run by Jewish people. Nelson Mandela was both prosecuted and defended by Jews. The SA Jews developed and tested a nuclear bomb. The only reason they kept the blacks around was to work in the mines. It would have been nice if the people that posted here, stating that they had been born and raised in SA had also stated that they are Jewish.

... devoured itself in the end. So will the rot in Israel. Change can be helped from the outside (not with bombs) but the ultimate change in society comes from the inside. It will come when enough Israelis see the shame of what they are doing.

I grew up on S. africa and Israel is NOT apartheid. For one thing Israeli Arabs can vote and have representation in the Kenesset. They can live in Israel where they want, work where they want, receive social benefits, etc. No comparrison to S. Africa. In the W. bank, this, according to the UN is "disputed land, subject to negotiation." This land is under Israeli military occupation until such time as a permanent settlement can be achieved. In the meanwhile the IDF must protect Israelis living in the W. Bank and Israel by any means it deems appropriate. Before the terror there were no barriers, checkpoints or Israeli only roads. The palestinians brought this treatment on themselves with their behavior. As for Israel being an apartheid state, it is not. And I should know, I lived in a real one!

You say Israel confiscated land from the Palestinians. This is not so. According to the UN the land is "disputed land, subject to negotiation". This land never was palestinian land. The arabs did not negotiate but rather initiated 6 wars and lost. Losing a war has consequences and those consequences are that you may lose some or all of your right to negotiate.

since its birth. it touts itself loudly to the world as a democracy and a free and open society...while quietly enacting laws and policies aimed directly at the ethnic cleansing of the palestinian people from its midst. its "abandoned property law", the denial of re-entry to any who leave, denial of building permits, home demolitions, its settlement enterprise, destruction of orchards, vineyards, and farms for "security" reasons, et al...they're all for that purpose. its NOT just in the west bank either; its "government" policy. it's built into its laws, infrastructure, and civil administration. but it's done oh so very quietly...and THAT is the difference.

There is no such thing as Israel as an apartheid state and here is why. You can't have it both ways. If one says that Israel is an apartheid state, then you are saying that the west bank is part and parcel of Israel. But you say its not (I'm willing to bet you don't think so). If ISrael is an apatheid state, then why do I have an arab doctor, dentist, lawyer, MK etc......? Why do I see Arabs driving better cars than me? The answer is because Israel is not an apatheid state! The best you can say is that ISrael employs aprtheid type policies in the west bank only. But if you say that Israel is like South Africa, then that means the west bank is part and parcel of the state of Israel and know one says or agrees to that. You can't have it both ways. WHat is it? Is the West Bank part of ISrael or not? Please be consistent and intellectually honest with your logic.

Who cares if it's like SA apartheid or ghettos in Europe or American Indian reservations. This is just arguing by analogy, which is useless, in my opinion. Those who support settlements are outraged; those who oppose settlements are also outraged; nothing happens.

more of them, but because world opinion was verdantly apposed to the apartheid regime. Plus the ban on sport made the ruling class realize they were going no where. Slowly but surely Israel is on that same path. Ultra right wing government. Daily scenes of discrimination shown on the worlds screens. Boycotts of Israeli produce not by governments, but by ordinary people at the supermarkets. We the people of Israel must change our rulers. As for terrorism: Newtons law applies here . To every action there is a an action, and a counter reaction.Or there is no smoke without fire.

... they view it as a mitzva (=blessing)...

Israelis are sensitive about comparisons to Apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany. Yet, at the heart of it is the dehumanization of the other. Apartheid was horrible. I was one of the people at the receiving end of it. And yet, I don't think Apartheid touched the level of psychopathic evil (both in its "production" through propaganda and in its support by a "diaspora" or in its effects: the Apartheid State NEVER did things like Israel is/has done in Gaza.) Israelis can be as sensitive as they like; I think Gilad Atzmon correctly identified the Israelis system as the prime evil of our times. All the best!

Many outside Israel don't know that most of the lands of today Jewish settlements were confiscated from the Palestinians. These Jewish settlements are for Jews only, what other country is doing it today? What the of this system. Confiscating land has nothing to do with security of Israel; it is creating anger and future terrorists who might lose their land. It is sad that some Jews in this world think that it is o.k to steal land and build on it exclusive Jewish settlements, well also Apartheid had its supported in the past and we all know what happened in the end?

Anyone who was born and raised in South Africa, as I was, and is also a Zionist, as I am, sees the simplistic and false equation of Israel's policies to those of Apartheid South Africa, as just that - simplistic. If comparing 2 complex socio-political scenarios is done only on the basis of seemingly comparable manifestations (such as population movement restrictions) alone, without looking at the root causes or core ideology behind these effects, then sure, it makes for a neat journalistic or pseudo-liberal sound bite. Israel's policies aren't perfect, but most sane people realize that they are motivated by decades of trying to achieve peace without racism, and have unfortunately devolved to be overly stringent on the innocents, in order to protect the greater interests of Israeli lives and survival. No nation would do differently. In fact many are far worse in their practice of real racism, under different guises - e.g. Sweden banning minarets, or France banning head coverings.

There is a difference. The South African Whites were proud of their establishment of Apartheid. Israelis are ashamed, but do it anyway.

FYI Mr. Greenberg that is what the SA regime arrested Nelson Mandela for. The situation in Israel/Palestine is a bit different in SA 90% of the population were black whereas in this situation it's about equal. Interesting that the US supported the SA government at the time and the current Israeli regimes.

Stephen Greenberg wrote "South African blacks weren't sending homicide bombers into South African cities to blow up buses, markets and restaurants." Your message is, at best, misguided. Maybe they weren't, but shouldn't they have been? If your people was being crushed on the basis of your race/religion/whatever, would you fight or would you "be a good citizen"?

Just because that Apartheid Wall has virtually eliminated terrorist attacks, that's no reason to keep it up. Jews must not discrimanate as to who blows them apart.

Hey rabbi, why do you call'em that way? What makes your hand hang up on writing words Jewish Nation?

sending homicide bombers into South African cities to blow up buses, markets and restaurants. The security problems in Israel are an entirely different magnitude of threat. And that's why the security measures taken in Israel are what are they are. Calling Israel an Apartheid state is a leftist calumny.

You obviously never lived in apartheid South Africa. I did. Blacks were kept apart from whites, regardless of security. Whilst there is discrimination in Israel, it is nothing near like thr discrimination in SA. And if the Arab MK's were to stop siding with Israel's enemies and show loyalty to Israel, perhaps there would be a greater level of trust and less discrimination.

If this is what it takes to be 'secure,' maybe something more basic is wrong.

Only two countires governments (US and Israel)remain oblivious but their people know

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It is perhaps worth pointing out that after 15 years of ANC rule in democratic South Africa, some whites still believe that blacks are out to kill them. They point to the high crime rate in South Africa as evidence, not stopping to add that most crimes in South Africa are directed against blacks and committed by blacks. But even after 15 years of not having been thrown into the sea, there are still some who believe that it is only a matter of time before whites will be marched into the ocean. I have no evidence on which to base the following statement, but I suspect that if one were to ask those referred to above whether they are racist, to the last one they would all deny that they are. Funny old world this one in which only other people are prejudiced. And of course, one should not forget that we white South Africans were convinced that God was on our side, as frequent references to the solemn vow which was made at the battle of Bloodriver served to remind us.

Apartheid was the term used in South Africa, where black and white people were afforded different privileges dependent on their colour. Israel discriminates in a rather different fashion, where the interests of the Jews have precedence over that of it's ethnic minorities - but for sure, both systems of discrimination are equally abhorrent by anyone's moral standards!

Settlements are a lousy idea, but the segregation of settlers from Palastinians on the West Bank is nevertheless a consequence of violence against settlers. Before the first Intifada, where were the separation barriers and Israeli only roads? Perhaps the fairer question is whether if Jewish settlements remain in a Palstinian state, would Jewish settlers receive the right to vote and equal protection of the laws as Palastinian citizens at least to the same extent that Arabs citizens of Israel receive it? Are Palastinains ready for a multi-cultural society in their own Palastinain state? South Africa involved a small minority white government controlling an overwhelming majority of blacks, and I don't recall during Apartheid threats to throw whites into the sea. israel's situation is far differnt both demographically and in intent.

the term apartheid is an insult to one's intelligence.