Appeasing high risk groups can prove deadly

but the author here is only using al-qaeda inspired attacks on the west as parallels in order to advocate as justifiable, an infringement on palestinian rights to prevent local terrorism. it's that which i'm addressing. it's interesting to note however, that while al-qaeda DOES use the palestinian/israeli conflict for recruitment purposes in the middle-east; it is least successful in doing so among the palestinians themselves, who have also shunned any overtures it's made towards embracing their cause.

Well, yes. But it is a safe bet that for the foreseeable future, the attackers will be young Muslim men, particularly Arab. So, even though the targets may change, the security strategy is pretty clear.

does NOT control the west bank... although it likely will at the rate that israel's going.

does oren have any prognosis?as a leading political expert,do you think he has any idea or intuition as to some sort of resolution of the palestine mess?(or even the minor golan question?)

... no resemblance between the old racism in America and the need to be super-vigilant about who gets onto international flights...

"The word "apartheid" was invented as a political term by the ruling party in South Africa to describe the system of racial "separateness" it wanted to create. It was not always a meaningless political insult as you seem to think." - Realist I first was taught about South Africa in the auditorium of the John B. Dey elementary school (named for the owner of the antebellum plantation behind the school) in the 1950s. The principle introduced a man who put on a slide show about South Africa and assured us that South Africa understood that Segregation, he called it 'Apartheid', was the natural order of the world, was God's will, and that South Africa stood behind the American South in it's efforts to maintain 'separate but equal' as the status quo. Nice words to hide racism behind. "Segregation," "Apartheid," "States Rights," "White Man's Burden, "God's Will." Now it seems we should not think they ever meant what they did.

I was observing that the lunatic right always argues that the 'threat' to democracy requires the self-destruction of democracy to save it. Your post just gives another example.

The word "apartheid" was invented as a political term by the ruling party in South Africa to describe the system of racial "separateness" it wanted to create. It was not always a meaningless political insult as you seem to think.

If this road was build in the Israeli side of the green line than I would agree with the theautor, but you can not build on stoling only for jews to use.

Civil rights of all must be protected, potential terror acts should be prevented and occupation should be ended. But ... if you try to justify the treatment of Palestinians your rant is irrelevant. You cannot throw/lock people out of their country keep them in a getto and call them terrorists because they resist.

Anyone who consistently reads the HaAretz Talkbacks will know that I hold no brief for the foolishness of our present government or its ill conceived policies. None the-less, Mr.Linthwaite's comment that: "The fact is most of the problems facing the world particularly Isrlamic fundamentalism and terrorism can be traced back to that moment.", is foolish. Bosnia, Burundi, Chechnya, global warming,the South American history of Fascist governments, etc. etc, cannot be blamed on my small nation. Such wide ranging rant can only fog the real problems truly created by an inferior set of Israeli politicians, and the failure of the Israeli electorate to rid itself of its parasite settlers.

First of all, don't compare the totalitarianism in the USSR to theocratic totalitarianism spreading in the Arab and Muslim world. Yes, Western democracies faced a powerful enemy in the USSR, but the people living there, surely by the 1970s (I'm one of them), no longer believed in their communist overlords; in fact, they desperately wanted to return to pre-communist, capitalist times (but this time with democracy- and they did so for the most part). In the Islamic world, on the other hand, the majority of the populations there see the West, democracy, and aspects of capitalism as intrinsically evil. They are also ready to blow themselves AND their children up for their Islamic beliefs- are you willing to do the same for Democracy?- NO! nor do I or any other Westerner. That's why we need draconian safeguards to keep Jihadists out of our country and off our roads and airplanes! The US, EU, Israel, etc have NO choice but to combat the insidious threat of Jihadist Islam!

There are lots and lots of people who support Islamic extremists besides young Muslim men. In fact, male Muslim terrorists have become a cliche, just as attacks on airliners have. If airplanes become too difficult a target, next will be shopping malls, sporting events, political rallys, shcools, church and synagogue, etc. There are so many such soft targets in America and the world that there will always be easy targets. Security is always working on repairing the last breech and never give a thought to the next one.

"under international law, people are entitled to leave any country. " - Cipora And what about people in Gaza?

"For your reference, South Africa pre-Mandela never considered itself apartheid!" - Adrian Flop Twaddle. There was a vigorous defense of Apartheid as the correct structure for society.

Appeasing the Zionists after their terrorist campaign against the British was the biggest mistake made after WWII The fact is most of the problems facing the world particularly Isrlamic fundamentalism and terrorism can be traced back to that moment.

when it comes to Al-Qaeda. Although anything that we do that some people in the Muslim World may not approve of might lend Al-Qaeda some support. Everybody has a right to be concerned about terrorism when it comes to Al-Qaeda. What makes Al-Qaeda different from any other kind of terrorism is that it is ideological in the same sense as Charles Manson's interpretation of Helter Skelter was. You create enough chaos and fear by indiscriminate slaughter of innocent civilians that the entire system collapses and then the Al-Qaeda leaders believe that they will emerge unscathed and take over the World. I think that the stuff we read about such as the guy who lit himself up on the airplane is always just the tip of the iceberg. They cannot tell us everything for good reason. As for Israel and the Arabs they will figure out some arrangement. It may not make sense to you or me but it's the Middle East and that's what the author is saying.

first, this was a terrible intelligence failure by all involved. if this man was not caught, then the entire west is in real trouble. second, regarding some of the hysterical responses to oren's article: under international law, people are entitled to leave any country. however, every country is entitled as a sovereign to deny admission to its territory without restriction. oren is right when he suggests profiling of those who ask for visas or who want to enter countries under terror threat. it is without doubt that terror is committed by young muslims. it is not committed by european christians or by budhists. those who get hysterical about profiling, should realise that this one single attempt to bring down a u.s. bound airplane will cause numerous deaths among muslims. many will be terrorists, but some will be civilians.

i agree with you that arabs should be allowed to vote, including arab women. e. g. in saudi-arabia women are not allowed to vote - contrary to israel where ALL (including arabs and women) are allowed to vote. there are even arab parties in israel.

When you talk of 443 cutting Arab towns into pieces, I wonder if you have ever been to Israel. I suggest you look at a map and tell me which Arab towns you see the road running through. Like most highways, it bypasses towns,

"The price of misguided lenience in the other direction is much higher." Mr. Oren what in your world is regarded as "misguided lenience" is what we Americans cherish as freedom and equality. I am really starting to believe your a tool!

"Holder, who with Obama's support ordered a criminal investigation against CIA staff accused of harming terror suspects after September 11, is encouraging a mindset that prevented Abdulmutallab from being put on a no-fly list barring his entry into the United States." THIS IS TOTAL CRAP! According to Mr Oren torture and profiling is the answer. How the hell did punishing CIA for torture encourage a mindset that prevented ABDULMUTALLAB from being put on no-fly list? Do you have specific proof?

see difference between Saudi Arabia and Israel . As to those "3 billion " annually-best given money in US history . 40000 Us troops guarding ea with their life cost much more. US troops in Saudi Arabia which caused OBL's wrath -don't they cost more than 3 billion ?

The Arabs are kids, if they were accepting Israel and asking for equal rights....what would Israel do? It could do NOTHING!

nobody protests the real apartheid in arab countries, for example also the manner of holding palestinians in special camps in this or that arab country.

nobody protests the real apartheid in arab countries, for example also the manner of holding palestinians in special camps in this or that arab country.

it appears that also you -like palestinian brit- have forgotten already the example of gaza.

your suggestion doesn't work. we saw it in gaza after israel's withdrawal.

as one of the most objective but this statement of the Brits spending funds on the countries they occupied is bull. I don't know of the US and Iraq, but the Brits did not spend a penny. Each place they colonialised had some raw material they needed. this was extracted and some of the revenue used to keep the natives happy. If anything, they made more money out of the places then they spent.I should know. I come from one of the places they supposedly spent money on...

US and Eu funds to the PA help them get ready for statehood. This would normally be a cost of the occupying power as it was with the US in Iraq and the Brits in India. In the absence of US/EU funds, the occupying power either take back the funding or takes over the funding of government, police, fire, schools etc., in the occupied territories. Do you plan to triple or quadruple your personal contributions to Israel? The US won't be increasing cash to Israel if the PA is cut off. Or should Israeli taxpayers take over the extra 2 Billion NIS annual expense the US and EU currently pick up? The US/EU funding is actually a gift to Israel.

The most fundamental Human Right is the right to live. Driving a car or flying is not a Human Right. Don't let political correctness get in the way of common sense.

and call route 443 "international route 443". that way democracy and security can BOTH be maintained, and you can even throw in "justice". best way to put out terrorist flames, is to quit stoking its fire.

let them earn their money. Why give a nickle to terrorists? If the US decides to stop all US funding, to Israel, Israel can become the world most powerful military manufacturer w/o limitations of whom she can sell to and when. The US gov. invests in Israel she squanders all monies on America enemies as well. We paid to educate a muslim Dr. in the army who murdered US troops. Is that a good investment? Let's pray that Israel will continue to destroy all nuclear installments that would end live as we know it. Iran's next. Gd bless Israel Gd help America.

He's about as popular as a case of untreated clap. The ONLY game in town has expanded.

All Israel has to do is stay on its side of the green line. Settlements, roads, the wall, all should be within Israel. The Palestinians wouldn't mind and wouldn't have anything to complain about and that would be regarded as genuine Israeli security.

A Republican appointed by George Bush is still running the TSA, not a member of the Democratic Party. A Republican senator from South Carolina won't allow a vote on Obama's nominee. That senator is named Jim DeMint. He'd rather nobody head the TSA than somebody competent. If you are afraid of having no checkpoints, establish 1:1 PA and IDF and let everybody be stripped searched and offended equally, every 2 KM. Don't forget the sniffer dogs.

But this isn't nearly enough, Amir Oren is soft on terrorists! First of all, let's agree that our limiting the degrading treatment to muslims only will let terrorists of a different creed not only continue their business as usual, it actually enables them to do their deeds more easily. It is clear that in the interest of national security all people must be degraded. Anything else would be leniency towards the terrorists. I have some suggestions: 1. The secret police needs to arrest more people. Suspected terrorists can be locked up until we have proof, that way the public is kept safe. 2. Media is protecting terrorists, it will be replaced with state media. 3. Politicians and citizens that oppose the "intrusive inconvenience" are supporting terrorism, they need to be dealt with. Remember that failure to implement this *will* set the world ablaze and that these measures are sure to prevent terrorism.

So typical of Left wing causes around the world where long term considerations are minor. There is an inability or just plain arrogance not think a few steps ahead. The Left love to get behind causes that photograph well and sound good. And don't the Left love to take from those who have put the hard work in, as if they are deserving of something, especially those highly qualified and frustrated universtity graduates who have never held down a real job? They get to influence the world because of the Dr. or Prof. behind their name. And what makes the decision about 443 all that more deadly is that those who push for overly democaratic ways do not believe that there is a regional conflict going on. When the war is over, lets open 443. Until then stop trying to please the radicals around the world.

40 000 Americans die every year for lack of health insurance. Thousands more die from respiratory diseases directly related to auto emissions, from toys and chemicals which the government refuses to inspect before market, and of course in a drug interdiction and prohibition effort which has not reduced drug use in nearly a hundred years. The easiest way to foil 9-11 would have been to have competent professionals screening the passengers at the gate. But in America saving the Airlines a few bucks was worth the risk of having minimally trained, minimally compensated, employees who were so poorly compensated that they rarely stayed long enough on the job to learn anything from work experience. Yet let one person die in defense of democracy and people lose their minds. Israeli citizens may be under the perpetual illusion that they can be an occupying power to large geographically integrated population and have the security enjoyed by Europeans, but Americans would never dream of such security. Every year for over a decade I lived in New Orleans an average of 400 people were murdered. My life has been in more danger from violence every single year of my life than it would have been if I had lived the same 38 years in Israel and served my compulsorily military duty. The reality of the matter is that it is not civil rights concerns that limits the screening of passengers but cost. If there was one idiotic move by a Democratic President it was Clinton's decision to give permanent most favored nation status to China. Since then America's position in Asia has declined dramatically. Unthinkable just 10 years ago, both Japan and Australia have moved further from America's orbit than anytime in history and closer to China than anytime in history for Australia and closer for Japan since before Japans isolation during colonial times. China is extending its power in to Africa. America can't afford to buy the relations and access to raw materials China can. Even in Bolivia, China has a much greater access to the South American nations crucial Lithium resources. America simply can't afford to further alienate nations like Nigeria that have substantial resources. With lost decade in climate control India, and China will consume more and more of oil resources from the Middle East. Even if America stays loyal to Israel, China which has generally good relations with Israel, but no deep cultural bond will act in its self interest. Which means Israel might be looking at Arab governments armed with the latest military technology. Those who claim to be tough minded in their willingness to sacrifice civil rights and strategic interest in the name of avoiding terrorism deaths are actually sacrificing much more. If Israel does not find a peace with the Arab world it may be saving some deaths from suicide bombs but looking at nuclear armed Iran whose nuclear missiles are protected by sophisticated Chinese anti-missile technology. Terrorism exists people will die. But to make a fetish of these lives is cowardly and stupid.

... Touched on slot of important issues that must be handled carefully and cannot be opened for a partial or brief examination. I think topics like that must either be fully discussed, researched and resolved or best left untouched as they can generate raw emotions which if not channelled correctly leading to wronging those who do not deserve it. That said road side bombings are the most promient slayer of Canadian troops in Afghanistan due to their ease of construction and implemention. & a man with no passport or refugee papers when outside of the country from which he is fleeing being admitted for boarding is idiocy and poor judgement. Too often we fear to take a minute and fully assess all options. It's an interesting minute, a window if you don't take it it vanishes and sometimes to reappears but often with restricted options

Mr Oren stop this racist nonsense. If you must make comparisons at least make ones that are relevant to the issue. While what the Saudis do in terms of its treatment of non-Muslims is reprehensible, that issue is separate from the dispute over land between the Israelis and the Palestinians. According to your logic, it is okay to racial profile people of the Muslim faith to save other people from terrorism. So what about those people who consider themselves Muslims but are not considered so by mainstream Muslims? Just because they have Muslim names and look like them, so it must be okay to racial profile them as well, is it not? Even if mainstream Muslims do not even consider them their friends? According to your twisted logic, yes.

Senator J DeMint won't allow the US Senate to have a confirmation vote on the TSA Administrator. There is no Democratic administrator of the TSA. You really should keep up. A Republican from the Bush Admin is still in charge. Republicans would prefer either dead Americans or bringing back the rack and water-board. Though it hasn't been suggested, except by the senator, he thinks dead Americans are preferable to unionized baggage screeners. He also thinks dead Americans are good for Republicans. Maybe you all should just set up 10 inspection checkpoints on the highway - 5 for the IDF and 5 for the PA. Everybody gets a body cavity search at every one of the 10 checkpoints, bring your own rubber gloves and KY. Women do men and men do women, so everybody gets offended equally.

"Those that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" Security on Route 443 is a serious problem, but a scenario where Palestinians are indefinitely restricted from accessing major roads/highways in the West Bank is unacceptable in a free society. If there are periods of time that the army deems it needed to restrict traffic, so be it. But such a situation should be constantly and independently evaluated and other options which allow freedom of movement and security should also be constantly sought. Is this easy? Of course not. Does Israel have a moral imperative for its own sake to do so? I think so.

This article can not change the fact that 443 cuts Palestinian towns in half for the benefit of illegal settlers and the occupation regime...get real!

apartheid states! Amir Oren is right. As an American, I'm glad that I don't send $3 billion a year to Saudi! Now only if we we could do the same with Israel, eh? And if people like Amir hate America's 'idiotic Democratic administrations' perhaps they should stop taking US money. Now how likely is that? Ha, ha. But remember, 80% of US Jews voted for these 'Idiotic Democrats'!

It is never worth responding to dishonest reporting or ?intellectualiam??but here is a shot at this one: Only 65 to 70 years ago, the parents and grandparents of Amir Oren were chartered in wagons as animals and segregated against because they were Jews! If Delta had a hub in Berlin, I bet Amir Oren would never make that flight?why? not because you may be an intellectually dishonest individual but because you are a Jew! Say thanks to Democracy ?with all its achievements and imperfections-; without it, you?d be stuck in a Jewish quarter in Syria or Morocco?and never make that Delta flight! For your reference, South Africa pre-Mandela never considered itself apartheid!

In any normal society rational laws are made in terms of the needs and obligations of the majority of its citizenry. And in such a society the general public will live its life within the boundaries set by those laws. The exceptions, those who forfeit their rights by ignoring the rights of others, will be treated as exceptions and not as excuses for the implementation of new and more repressive laws. To predicate the laws of a country on the actions of a few will result in a generally hierarchical stratification of society to the advantage of the wealthy and the powerful, and the unequal treatment of the rest of the population.Stratified societies are classically patriarchal, afflicted by dogma, and repression. One might think of Prussia, Victorian England, and pre-war Japan as prototypes of modern class-ridden societies, even more modern versions are not difficult to find. The term "high-risk groups"can all to easily be corrupted to mean all Arabs, rather than members of Al Kaida.

...all these incidents will serve nicely when the other shoe drops, and the money is turned off. It's been done before for much less. Keep it up Israel. Keep alienating Americans.

To save democracy we must destroy it. Because there are undemocratic regimes in the world, we must destroy our own democracies. Because the Soviets were totalitarian, we were told we could not pursue civil rights in America, we had to eliminate our constitutional protections; if we didn't destroy our democracy the Soviets would. . . I even fell for that crap when I was a kid. After a while several things became obvious. First our democratic institutions produced more facile, productive and prosperous people who were more determined to preserve their life-style than any resident of a totalitarian state could ever be. Second, that those who were residents of totalitarian states were more disposed to admire our condition than we (our extreme right excepted) were to admire theirs. Third, those amongst us that sincerely believed that only by becoming what our enemies were, could be be safe, were wrong.

?Holder, Rice and Obama, as well as Carter and Clinton, who were both governors of southern states before becoming president, have copied a simplistic notion of the civil rights struggle involving American blacks and implemented it in U.S. foreign and defense policy? What?s a pity that most of Israeli leaders don?t have the same reflex coming from long history of Jewish struggle against separation and discrimination.