An incomplete voice

I'm new in Tel Aviv and was feeling like the last feminist in the universe lately. I'm glad to see some feminists describing the current reality from a feminist viewpoint. My question is this: Is there any activist feminist organization that I could join in Tel Aviv? Please email me: a_feminist@yahoo.com

What many women in Israel think about the disengagement: go see at www.shuvi.org (hebrew) and http://www.shuvi.org/e-index.htm (english) finally our dream seems to come true! Kol hakavod to Sharon, I dont really care if his motivation is cleaning his own soul or it is for the good of all, there is some good to being a bulldozer and not many would stand the pressure he is under. And no good words for you: traffic obstructors puncturing tires on main traffic true-fares, endangering your children and pushing them in the traffic...no good words for you!! You hooligans are pushing the limits and exactly on the wrong track, selfish and senseless... you wake resentment and your actions are totally counter productive...take an example of Women in Black who all through the years demonstrated in dignity.

I have read two of your post and can't wait for the next one. You tell a boat load of truth! Keep going brother, I'm with you 100%.

the Palestinians have agreed to a two state solution but they dont mean it and so we continue the expansionism and just want them to sit back, watch, let it happen and let Israelis expand in peace. WHY CAN`T THEY JUST DO THAT? And when I call this in question and hope the message will get across to those who read this website, I must be discredited. Well said Yaacov. I don't condone suicide bombing, but niether do I condone the IDF raids or bulldozing nor the use of settlers to claim disputed land. I sometimes think the right have forgotten the old saying of what happens when you back someone in a corner. Your criticizers are mostly the fundamentalist in all countries. They are blinded by thier own zealousness. Keep posting, moderates are always needed when the going gets rough.

Mr. and Mrs. Davidowitz: In the late 1930's, the Jewish Agency (which was controlled by the Labor party then as it is now), issued passports for the few slots allowed under the British White Paper to Mapainikim (Labor), and Revisionists from Romania and Poland were not allowed to immigrate to Eretz Israel (except in a very few circumstances.) Revisionists from Romania had to enter "illegally" into Eretz Israel on very unseaworthy vessels leaving Constanza. The SAKARIO made it, but the STRUMA sank, killing all but one of over seven hundred passengers trying to find refuge in Eretz Israel. I presume that both of you are Revisionists and belong to the Revisionist party, and undoubtedly "Clouds" (Post Number 46) belongs to the Maarach (Labor) or even farther to the left. Tell me, what has changed in the past seventy years?

"I don?t know what women think about disengagement but my experience with Palestinians and Israelis had shown me that women are more ready than the men to compromise and listen to the plight of others." LOL! Women get more practice from birth. That is what we have been relagated to. It may be that this training could be very useful in diplomatic situations. I'd like to see it tried. "At Bologna University we have had many meeting between Palestinians and Israelis: men meeting tended to end in shouting matches while women seemed more sedate and more able to create a bond between them that bodes well for the future." Yes, this has been shown in other settings. Ted Kopple did a special Nightline from Israel several years ago and what you describe is exactly how the panel reacted. The men desolved into shouting and the women of both sides found common ground. Sadly, we see who is leading the project. "Those who are against disengagement have to tell us what will they do when 30 years from now the demographic balance west of the river will be 30% Jews and 70% Arabs, and they will begin to ask for one man one vote in a binational state. Don?t think that by that time the USA will stand with Israel: at the same period Muslims will outnumber Jews 1 to 3 with most of them in key states." I can't say I have the answers, but I think you have defined the reason that common bonds to peace must be found. After all the story of David and Goliath is just that, a story. Real and painful work lies ahead for both the Israelis and Palestinians.

No, Greg, I haven't been to the U.S. lately. I have not been felt up in a strip search at an American airport; I have not been subject to hours of the Brain-dead nonsense that passes for "news" on FOX or CNN; I haven't seen many non-Jewish blacks, hispanics and low-educated whites in years, although I have met thousands of uninformed and apathetic, though somehow heavily opinionated American Jews over the years in my gallery in Tsfat. But even these, many of whom were visiting Israel for the first time thanks to the good graces of the Birthright Program, were at least getting their first first-hand experience of this land and it's many peoples. Those who read papers are learning of events not mentioned in American media. Those who get to meet and dine with families who live on the evidently UNCOOL side of the GREEN LINE are dumbfounded by loving parents and their bright, vivacious children NOT living up to their preconcieved images of what barbaric, war-mongering "settlers" are supposed to look like. And of course, they are also learning what bold, sexy, rude, passionate, CHUTZPADIK people share their nightclubs, roads and resturaunts with them. Israelis also talk about cars, houses and salaries, Greg. And like every a--hole, each one of them has an opinion about the various possible paths to peace. And most are worried that their leaders have no real plan. Ronnie, my name is Moshe Chaim Levy. M.C. Levy People who saw my old gallery sign began to call me McLevy, and I liked it and use it OnLine and in signing art. And I'm red-haired and freckeled, so that works too.

Good idea Rachel. But lets give them one chance like we will give the Islamic fundamentalists one chance. My Kingdom for some Horse radish?....Caesar salad,anyone?...No Hamlet we're Jewish...

Man, have you been in US lately? Since 9/11 Americans bought more cars and houses than ever. We got great tax cuts, draft is nowhere near even though 1700 blacks, hispanics and low educated whites died so far. Do we care? From what I hear, we don't. How I know? People talk about cars, houses, salaries, interest rates and so on. This is the reality. Everyone wants to look like they talk about wars. Well, noone does. You know what Jews voted for Bush? Russian and Orthodox. Why? Because he is "better for Israel". Because they "care" about Israel. But they are still sitting in their house, driving fancy cars and at no point are willing to go and help Israel they care about so much. This is the hypocracy. And so are all the Ivy league Republicans that rule US. None of them ever walked the talk. Bush does not care about Israel. He cares about his name in the books. And he will sell Israel as soon as there is agreement with Abbas. As he did already. Sharon is just trying to cut losses that he knows will be there sooner or later.

1.Mclevy,so what will be the third stage of Sharons plan? 2. Where can I buy the Tartan? 3 Do Jewish Scots drink Scotch? and do they throw blintzes at soccer games?

Well, if we cannot say anything against Israel, why are you then asking for our support here in US? Is there supposed to be one great Jewish idea that we all have to follow? Is that a Jewish state? Well, why is it then many Israelis come here and stay? Why is it then that so many Jews from former USSR here scream "Not one step back" but refuse to move to Israel to fight for that step? I have no definite opinion because exactly people like you make me feel guilty when I disagree with Israel and at the same time I am looking at these forums and I see that Israelis cannot agree on anything. So that makes me think I should have a right to say good and bad things about Israel, without actually telling you what to do. I do not pretend to be great Jew. I chose to live in US and will stay here. But since Israel clearly wants our help here, and excuse me, some of our money here, I think I should be able to say things that will not please you. And I do not see it as giving enemies reasons to hate. I cannot care much for what arabs think. But I also realize that we live in 21 century. All I hear from hard-liners is basically things that equal to genocide. And while I agree that arabs committing one 24/7, it is not the same as to say that I should be doing the same thing. It does not make sense to talk today about removing all Arabs to some other land, or being able to torture anyone who is not a Jew, or killing without trial. Quite frankly, if my son ever serves in any military, I do not want him to do that for his own sake, forget about treaties. And I do not understand why would any parent be willing to send his child to defend settlers who represent minority of the people and whose goals cannot be rationally explained. The country cannot be protected if it represents islands of land. And these islands cannot be unified without committing crimes against humanity. We do live in 21 century, this stuff just does not work anymore. Without these really harsh tactics Israel will not be able to unify all the settlemnets it has. Then it has to move back. There is no other way around. And it has nothing to do with Arabs.

Proud Zionist, you actually sound at times like the rarest of Middle Eastern birds -- the Israeli MODERATE. Are you from the city or the Moshav of Modeiin?

Yaakov. You have been told my Khalid and several other Palestinians on this site that the Palestinians have accepted neither the Jewish character of Israel nor the 2-state solution as the ultimate goal. Yet you persist on acting as an apologist for the Palestinians no matter what, knowing full well that the insistence on the right of return is specifically designed to nullify Israel's existence as a Jewish state. Your philosophy of reaching out to one's enemies and doing unto others as you would have them do unto you is all fine and dandy, except for the minor detail that you use it as a stick to constantly beat Israel and the Jewish people. The damage you do to the image of Jews in the wider world where most people are ignorant and have never met a Jew is irreperable, and you do only service to those in the gentile world who have a preconceived hatred of Israel. Had you known anything about the Jewish people, you would have known that becoming a Jew is akin to being conferred citizenship of a nation. It is not a mere 'statement of faith'. You are part of a circle of trust, and breach of that circle means that you can be cast out of it.

I spoke to a couple from Gush Katif at Safed candles a few weeks ago. I asked them how they felt about being forced to leave. The woman looked sad, saying it makes her want to cry, having to leave the area in which she was born. The man, on the other hand, merely nodded in acknowledgement of his wife's feelings and, in noticing his detachment, I asked "were you also born in the Gush?" He said no, he was born in Tel Aviv. "And how was the reimbursement the government gave you?" I asked. He smiled a cheshire cat grin. "VERY good...!" He said the government paid him nearly double the going price for such a property. Most of you English readers in Israel left your homes to come here. My wife left her homeland and I left mine. People move all the time. The Gaza settlements were put there, by the government, as a buffer zone; a military manuever to protect Israel's citizens from the 1 million potential terrorists crammed into Gaza. Ariel Sharon, the same designer of that temporary measure (if it were meant to be permanent, he'd have pushed for annexation, as with the Golan) has decided he has milked the post 9/11 political climate enough to move to stage two of his long-term plan: to leave Gaza and it's denizens to it's own government while making them legally reponsible for the actions of it's citizenry. Sharon wants it all bound and legal while Bush is still in office, for once America and the U.N. recognize the pull-out and that we are no longer "occupying" anybody over there, then any attack from that entity will be responded to with the power of our airforce; from the relative safety of 1000 feet and Mach 2, and NOT by 18 year old Jewish boys being forced to patrol the narrow alleys of Gaza's many Refugee camps. They don't want that job, and their mothers don't want them doing it either. It is a different world we live in since the World Trade Center attack; the double-standard between Jews and Arabs ain't what it used to be, especially in the eyes of our very powerful ally. We don't need to molly-coddle terrorists and rationalize terrorism anymore. Now we can legally bomb them back. Sharon, still the most right-wing Prime Minister in Israel's history, is, as he has always been, an uncannily clever and sneaky general. And if the world's political climate continues in the conservative-to-fascist direction in which it has been heading, and terrorism continues to be the method of political manipulation it has been, then I am certain that Sharon or his successor will be ready to implement stage three of his plan...

You state: "Israel has done everything in its power for peace"... You clearly believe that. I do not. I cannot when I see what is going on in the occupied territories. For you, that is of little importance. For me it is a critical factor. And there's the rub. I find Europeans not to be nati-semitic but highly critical of Israeli policy. For you and many on this site, that must be equated with anti-semitism. Israel did not offer to dismantle the settlements. It insisted on maintaining the blocs of larger settlements and an exchange of 9 or 10% of land. Certian colonies designated by the miliarty as unsustainable because of location would have been dismantled. But that was it. Then there was the issue of the roads, air rights, water rights, use of the port. Do you remember the suggestion made to the Palestinians in the 70s of village leagues which would have achieved a certain degree of local autonomy for Palestinians. Baraks offer went only a little beyond those ideas. As for the massacre of Hebron, you know well that other reverse examples could be cited. As for 1948. It was a situation where the zionists were absolutely desperate and saw a slight chance available to them of a state. The window could close at any minute and they decided to take it because Ben Gurion knew too well that that is what he could get at that time in history. He said the rest would come later, but they had to act before the US changed its mind and the zionist lost the support of Britain. They simply had everything to gain. The Arabs on the other hand had everything to loose. Areas of the Galil, the district of Jaffa (as distinguished from the city of Jaffa) which would have gone to the zionists when it had an Arab majority. Why would they go along with such a partition. That is how they saw it. Not part of the zionist narrative but that is how they saw it. The country slipping through their fingers and there was nothing they could do to stop it or have their protests registered by the powers.

When you make accusations that aren't true, like saying I'm in Meimad, you are breaking a Torah commandment (you are lying). That is a chillul Hashem. Bottom line: every govt. has the power to move its citizens if necessary. Every govt. also has the ability to set its borders, something we never did but need to do. Numerically, we will become a minority if we try to keep Azza. I don't want that. Many famous Ravs said it was acceptable to give back land.

PZ apparently forgot that Sharon said before the election that, although he would make "painful concessions" he said that meant giving up the Arab populated areas, NOT THE SETTLEMENTS. He also said he would honor the Likud referendum which he lost overwhelmingly. You MEIMAD people have very selective morality. Throwing Jews out of their homes is OKAY. You people sacrifice everything for the "holy" goal of destroying Jewish lives and property with your support for Oslo and Sharon.

Your lack of response to my exposing your ridiculous theory (that "Israel holds itself up as a light to the nations" and thus must be savagely criticized) hopefully shows that you have abandoned that stupid bunk.

Contrary to what the extremists think I am not left. I am very centre and at this time at least pro Sharon. I dont believe he has an ulteria motive apart from security issues and a legacy. Unlike than on the right of him and the left. Netanhanyu is stuck where he is and Peres..well Peres ONLY hope is to be Israel's Jimmy Carter. A nebish while in power but a great and kind staesman outside of power.Maybe Peres will get a post later like with some international human rights cause. I think now we should ALL back Sharon and hopefully the Palestinians wont screw it up by bombing but them it will be 100% their own fault.

Yaakov, your daily criticism does harm Israel. One can presume it is used by Israel's enemies in their propaganda war against the Jewish state. This war, when combined with their terror tactics, is aggressive and demoralizing. If you think your words don't have an effect, why do you bother writing them? They do have an effect, but not on most Jewish Israelis, who don't read Ha'aretz in English. You are preaching to the anti-semitic Europeans like Franzen. Israel has done everything in its power for peace (except for the leave the country, which seems to be what most Palestinians want). Most fair observers recognize that peace with Arafat wasn't possible. Don't you? Considering he JUST passed away (and was in power for 40 years), peace with the Palestinians wasn't possible during Arafat's rule. "I see a connexion, avery strong one between Israel`s actions in the occupied territories and world opinion toward Israel. You do not." We offered to dismantle the settlements and we were met with unrelenting terror. Terror existed since the 1920s, when Hebron was attacked. The PLO was formed in '64. Who are you trying to fool, Yaakov. All of Israel is a giant colony in Palestinian eyes, no? "For you terror is inately an Arab phenomenon that is completely disconnected to what Israel does in the occupied territories." It is a Muslim phenomenon that exists all over the world. Or did the U.S. colonize Saudi Arabia and cause 9/11 in your home city of NY? You are only discredited because you attack Israel every day during a war from the safety of the diaspora. That helps Israel's enemies while apparently making you feel better at the expense of your Jewish bretheren.

Only time will tell but I really think that if Natanhanyu quit the government the right wing will be seriously marginalized and a major party would lose a centre right icon and lose more power,be only lionized by the ultra right and Sharon would SURELY pull it off. In any case Netanhanyu is dead. The Palestinians start trouble after the pullback and Sharon goes back in.The darling of the right,again. The Left is crippled. Netanhanyu has little space to work. Sharon wins. But Sharon NEEDS a strong mandate to go further to his new legacy. You are right about Sharon. Sharon wins in any case.

Anna, again, your original comment was "Shavit's book is just an extension of the way most Israeli men think, well if it doesn`t have a penis, it must not have a relevent opinion." Pretty harsh stuff, and untrue (like most generalizations). I work in hi-tech, and work with many intelligent women. I believe women should have all the same rights as men. I try to support them whenever possible. You are right though, women are subject to discrimination that I'm not. I feel bad about that. Yom Kippur was an existential threat in which it was feared the country would fall. That's not comparable to Lebanon. Also, many Israelis DID hate Sharon (on the left)).

A fundamentalist is someone like you. A fundamentalist is a self-righteous individual who thinks knows better what is good for people who live far away from her/his reality. Stay in Durban, please, please, please.

What you are implying is that Israel is innocent and right and a my daily criticism is harming Israel. There is a disagreement here. You neglect to even mention the effects of the occupation, the continuation of building, the piece by peice dismantling of any possibility of a contiguous palestinian state. Apparently, you hold to the view that Israel has done EVERYTHING in its power to bring about peace but all they got in return was nothing. I see a connexion, avery strong one between Israel's actions in the occupied territories and world opinion toward Israel. You do not. For you terror is inately an Arab phenomenon that is completely disconnected to what Israel does in the occupied territories. There is terror and there will always be terror and the Palestinians have agreed to a two state solution but they dont mean it and so we continue the expansionism and just want them to sit back, watch, let it happen and let Israelis expand in peace. WHY CAN'T THEY JUST DO THAT? And when I call this in question and hope the message will get across to those who read this website, I must be discredited.

Note - She's one out of how many. I think Golda Meir is great. She's a role model. Before I made Aliya, I also thought everybody must think she's great. Then I asked some native Israelis. Every ask an Israeli what they think of Golda Meir. Sorry, I think it has more to do with the fact she was a she than Yom Kippur. After all, they've forgiven Ariel Sharon for Lebonon.

PZ - If that's not your case - Mazel Tov. I'm married to an enlightened Israeli male, and we still go rounds, and he never listens, especially when he's driving, and I'm always (95%) right. I am educated, and I work with VERY educated women, and we all have the same gripe. If your wife doesn't, Mazel Tov. But look around, in high tech, there aren't a lot of women in top management, not in government, and not in most private sector jobs (maybe banks are the expection). Until you tread in high heals, you don't know how steep the road really is.

Israel has been at war for its entire existence. We fight blood-thirsty terrorists who still dream of driving us to the sea. Yaakov, you think what we really need right now is your daily serving of criticism? How does that help us exactly? Are you aware of the tremendous world bias against us, which is completely out of all proportion? Do you know what happens in the U.N.? Do you know what is said in the Arab press?

"Hey, PZ, you avoided answering my question. I said Sharon could have called new Knesset elections OR a referendum. So you talk only about the referendum. Are you against elections also, since your hero "Arik-Melech Yisrael" would lose them also." Sharon does not need either a referendum or elections (both of which would cost cash-strapped Israel hundreds of millions). He campaigned by saying he would make major compromises towards the Palestinians. Now he is doing it. "This regime in power is illegal-it is like there has been a military coup, so any decisions by the cabinet or knesset which violate morality are illegal." That is the comment of an extremist. Sharon's decision was passed by govt, cabinet and has been upheld in supreme court. That is the very defintion of legal. "Worship of the regime without regard to morality is FASCISM. What would you and all the other Leftists on this list say if the cabinet and knesset voted to expel ARABS from their homes?" I don't worship the regime, and I don't think what the "regime" is doing is immoral. We need to set defineable borders, and Azza was never annexed. There is a reason for that.

You are absolutely right. People in Israel and Jews around the world need to support Sharon at this time. Disengagement from the West Bank and Gaza is not a "left-right" issue, it is an issue of Israel's existence. People in Israel who want to keep control of the West Bank and Gaza should consider that this will mean an Arab majority living in Israel.

Hey, PZ, you avoided answering my question. I said Sharon could have called new Knesset elections OR a referendum. So you talk only about the referendum. Are you against elections also, since your hero "Arik-Melech Yisrael" would lose them also. This regime in power is illegal-it is like there has been a military coup, so any decisions by the cabinet or knesset which violate morality are illegal. Why do you consider throwing thousands of people out of their homes such a "minor issue" that doesn't require getting a CLEAR public mandate? YESHA council says they will honor elections or a referendum, but you and Sharon fear them. Worship of the regime without regard to morality is FASCISM. What would you and all the other Leftists on this list say if the cabinet and knesset voted to expel ARABS from their homes?

Settlers have done more than their share of trying to destroy the unity of Israel by their lies and propaganda with the sole aim of protecting their ill-gotten gains. I want to see all settlers ran out of Israel, not only the territories. Israel deserves better than a bunch of Jewish terrorists pretending to be settlers. Out damn settlers, out like the spot in the Shakespeare play.

Firsly;I agree that you only make freinds with your enemies; but only after you completely defeat them in war (which we are deeply in with the arab enemy) and they surrender and lay down their arms. Until then you treat them as they would treat you -NO MERCY FOR THE CRUEL. This is a Milchemet Mitzva- compulsory war- and you fight to win

Here are some of the countries that have or had woman as president or prime minister: Indonesia - greatest Islamic population in the world Pakistan India Great Britain Poland Sri Lanka Philippines Now I do not remember more (surely some Scandinavian countries too). Love to all

"Women PMs? India, Sri Lanka, Phillipines, Pakistan. For starters" But how many countries, including the U.S. (!), haven't had a woman PM? The majority! "Only Israel consripts both males and females into their regular army." Sounds like a form of equality to me. "I dont know anything about maternity leave, though I would think it is not superior to the countries of Western Europe." Why are we only compared to Western Europe? Israel is quite generous. All the points you discuss rank Israel favorably, yet you crticize. That is defamation, my friend. "You call me and enemy of Israel. That is a slander. Obviously, anyone who is critical of israel fits that category." Nope, only those who criticize Israel all day and every day while giving the Palestinians a free pass. That is you. "Israel demands to be viewed by the rest of the world in the best light, while demanding the right to judge the rest of the world in the worst light." YOU REPEAT THIS OFTEN, AND YOU ARE 100 PERCENT WRONG! Who is "Israel"? The average Israeli, men and women, just want to be left alone by the rest of the world. We're sick and tired of being judged by an unfair standard unlike that of the rest of the world. Hertzl wanted to make Israel a nation like any other nation. Other religious Jews hope that Israel will become a light onto the nations. Even those who believe in that concept don't believe that Israel should be judged more harshly than any other country during a time period when there is a HORRIFIC terror war being waged against her! You claim to sympathize with Israel, so why can't you realize that it is wrong to hold us to an unfair standard while we are being attacked? We fight in the army and lose relatives while you sit in your armchair in NY criticizing! Then you have the guts to ask why I consider you an enemy. You should be absolutely ashamed, because your one-sided drivel is used by people who hate Jews and Israel. It absolutely is. That is your contribution to the ME conflict: defaming Israel and excusing Palestinian terror. "Israel claims, by its own admission that it has been elected for a higher mission." For the millionth time, who is "Israel"? The Arab population, which is 25 percent of the entire pop? The 1 million Russians? The secular Israelis (80 percent of the pop)? Yaakov, if you don't know that there are many different streams of thought in this democracy, than you are slower than I thought. The majority of Israelis want to be judged the same as every other nation. Nothing can justify your unceasing harping on Israel during a time of war. It is a disgrace. "That does not make me an enemy of Israel. It makes me a critic and a person who demands that Israel be held acccountable." Holding Israel to an unfair standard during a time of war makes you an enemy. It's not enough that you sit in your easy chair in NY, but you have the gall to criticize those who are desperately trying to hold on to survival for all Jews. "I am not taking this woman`s editorial and using it against Israel. You charge that I am but that does not make the charge true." Yes you are. Of course you launched into a diatribe about how awful Israel is and how awfully women are treated here. Never mind that your Palestinian buddies in Ramallah treat women 100 times worse (insert drivel about "but they don't claim to be moral" here). "So please, stop calling me a defamer of Israel simply because I wont pat Israel on the back as the best and the finest and the incomparable and the smartest and the wisest and the most persecuted and the most vicitimised." No one is asking you to say we are the best. JUST STOP SAYING WE ARE THE WORST ON A DAILY BASIS! Treat us like all others, and you'll see we are better than most (certainly better than the neighbors you campaign for on a daily basis).

"To be a real true Jew one must be a Jewish fundamentalist.(do not use the only two names of Yigal Amir and Baruch Goldstein hy.d as paradigm of Jewish fundamentalism)" Why not? They were fundamentalists. They believed they were literally following G-d's word. To be a real Jew is to be the opposite of a fundamentalist. Abraham questioned and petitioned G-d himself, and G-d was pleased!!! "Aviel can you prove that the 'fundementalist' who threatened Maj. Halutz is not a left wing agent provocoteur.??" Such comments remind one of the arabs who blame everything on the evil Jewish Shabak/Mossad.

Miriam, great you ask this question. It is not someone who is proud to be Jewish. You can be proud of being Jewish, Palestinian, American etc For sure you are not fundamentalist, becuse you don`t like graves to be vandalised and shuls destroyed! But you are fundamentalist when you just don`t try to understand other people, you are fundamentalist when being for genocide and expulsion, home demolitions, making mothers-fathers-children-babies homeless, when you are for murderering innocent people and for incarceration of peace-loving people. You are fundamentalist when considering otherlives-in this case- Palestinian- not as much worth, justifying murder on young people and children only becuse they are murdered by your people. You are fundamentalist when you consider people-let`s say conversos or left refuseniks as traitors and not giving them all rights. You are fundamentalist when not giving all of the people same, equal rights. You are fundamentalist when you consider all Palestinians as terrorists while not giving in your people are not innocent lambs at all. Remember if you want to make peace, you have to work with your ennemy. Merry are those who turn their ennemies into friends.

PZ: 1. Women PMs? India, Sri Lanka, Phillipines, Pakistan. For starters 2. Only Israel consripts both males and females into their regular army. 3. I dont know anything about maternity leave, though I would think it is not superior to the countries of Western Europe. You call me and enemy of Israel. That is a slander. Obviously, anyone who is critical of israel fits that category. I stand by what I have said in numerous postings on this site and hope it is clea to you and others. Israel demands to be viewed by the rest of the world in the best light, while demanding the right to judge the rest of the world in the worst light. Israel claims, by its own admission that it has been elected for a higher mission. It is not a the goals of that mission. The history of Israel is a long serious of the nation falling short of the mark. That is understandable and like any other nation. But Israel is different because Israel claims that it does not behave like the Serbs or the Croats or any other nation. Well, I do not believe that is true. That does not make me an enemy of Israel. It makes me a critic and a person who demands that Israel be held acccountable. Occupations have an effect on the occupier. The occupation has taken its toll on Israeli society. You can see it on the roads, in schools and the domestic abuse in homes. I am not taking this woman's editorial and using it against Israel. You charge that I am but that does not make the charge true. It isnt a question of defaming Israel. Israel has shortcomings they need to be corrected and that correction will require a reevaluation of the role of "hagever" in Israeli society. This is does not make me a defamer. Nor does it imply that I condone the position of women in Saudia Arabia or Taliban Afganistan, nor that they can be compared to the condition of women in Israel. So please, stop calling me a defamer of Israel simply because I wont pat Israel on the back as the best and the finest and the incomparable and the smartest and the wisest and the most persecuted and the most vicitimised. Israel must be held accountable not coddled where even murder is condoned as justified due to the circumstances.

To Sarah and Aviel, Was Rabbi Benjamin Kahane and his wife Talia,who were brutally murdered by REAL fanatic arab fundamentalists,fanatics. (They left 6 orphan children. Was Tali Hatuel and her 4 young children of Gush Katif, who were shot to death at point blank range by savage barbarian arab fanatics,fundamentalists.? To be a real true Jew one must be a Jewish fundamentalist.(do not use the only two names of Yigal Amir and Baruch Goldstein hy.d as paradigm of Jewish fundamentalism) Aviel can you prove that the "fundementalist" who threatened Maj. Halutz is not a left wing agent provocoteur.??

"He can grab the bulk of Israel that needs security while Netanhanyu panders to the right. Netanhanyu cannot get the centre as the left will have nothing the do with him since he voted against Sharons plan." Ronnie, your analysis doesn't make sense because you keep ignoring my question: If Netanyahu is so desperate to be a right wing hero, why doesn't he just quit the govt? He would instantly be lionized. He doesn't because he wants the center and the international accolades more than he wants the right. Right wing heroes today are Lieberman, Sharansky, Feiglin, etc. "He is the right wing hero of the moment and any stepping to the centre will give another reason for the extremists to shout `Anti semitic Nazi`" You are 100 percent wrong. The right is mad at him for voting for the plan in the initial phases and remaining in the govt. "Not a role he will be comfortable in. Only Sharon can bring it home. But he needs the consensus from the Centre right to the centre left,the silent Israeli public who are minding their own business while Rome burns. SPEAK UP!" Sharon has the concensus and knows it.

PZ Yes you are right.Nethanhanyu wants centre.But the centre that he wants is not there anymore. Israel is now polarized. Centre is an isolated place because the extremes on both sides have never been further apart and that has pulled the centre away to each side. But Sharon is the only one who can unite the country. He can grab the bulk of Israel that needs security while Netanhanyu panders to the right. Netanhanyu cannot get the centre as the left will have nothing the do with him since he voted against Sharons plan. He is the right wing hero of the moment and any stepping to the centre will give another reason for the extremists to shout 'Anti semitic Nazi' Not a role he will be comfortable in. Only Sharon can bring it home. But he needs the consensus from the Centre right to the centre left,the silent Israeli public who are minding their own business while Rome burns. SPEAK UP!

"The response of PZ to Anna`s e-mail is typical of how Israel deals with so many of the problems confronting it. Sweep it under the rug. PZ admits that Israel has a long way to go in regard to the gender gap." Yaakov, Israel lives in an unfortunate reality. It is repeatedly held to an unfair standard, unlke that of any other country, by its enemies. People like yourself and Khalid spend their entire days defaming the Middle East's only democracy. I said that Israel (like every country in the world, including America, Britain, etc) has work to do toward narrowing the gender gap. But I also said that gap shouldn't be exaggerated, because it will be used by Israel's enemies (and I was right, because Yaakov Sullivan, enemy of Israel, is now using the comment against Israel and an Israeli-me). "But then he goes into this comparison game again: Yes, but, look at other nations and see how much better we are. It is never the problem itself within Israel. It is always, yes, but what about the others??" Unfortunately, people like yourself unfairly demonize Israel. How many countries had a female PM? How many countries would draft both male and female soldiers? How many countries give as generous a maternity leave as Israel. And yet here you are criticizing Israel...what a suprise. "The PZ goes on to virtually tell Anna to keep hermouth shut in public since it might add fuel to the critics of Israel. In other words, there is a sickness, but don`t treat it publically because the cure will only make it worse!" I certainly never told anyone to shut their mouth. All I said that the problem shouldn't be exaggerated, because it will be used by Israel's enemies-and I was right, because you are using it now. Yaakov, I am living here in Israel and I'm married to an intelligent, independent woman. It actually MATTERS to me that women have rights here, while this is all just a debating game for you and another chance to defame Israel. Maybe you should get another hobby, because the policies you advocate, and the fact that you truck with Israel's enemies, endangers all Israeli women and men.

If your analysis was true and Netanyahu wanted to be a right wing savior, why wouldn't he quit the govt? He'd become an instant right wing hero. He can't, because he wants the votes of the center in the next election for PM.

PZ:The reason why a person like Netanyahu is still in the govt isn`t for money. He has plenty of that. He`s scared of alienating the center/majority in Israel, not to mention the Americans he hopes to resume working with some day. I dont know about that,I kind of think that his ploy was to steal the centre right to the extreme right from Sharon,which he has.Now he is the right wing savior (The Temple Mount Kid has been dethroned) Sharon is now a lone centrist (not left) but he is my pick as he is the only one that can possibly bring a secure peace home. He needs the support of America and the support of the silent majority who see the futility in Netanhanyu (for power he has to keep the right happy in which case a consensus is impossible as the left will never join it) and also the futility in Peres and Barak etc for their weakness and lack of consesus building. Sharon is our ONLY chance and I beg for Israelis to SPEAK UP now while there is time!

From today's Haaretz: "A threatening letter was sent Monday to the Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Dan Halutz, at the IDF high command headquarters in Tel Aviv, it emerged Tuesday. The letter said "you are following the path of the prime minister. If your family is important to you, abstain yourself from this." The sender of this letter is without doubt a fundamentalist. As well as a Hamas activist. As well as Yigal Amir or Baruch Goldstein. As well as anybody in the security forces who refuses to obey the orders of his superiors.

Dear Ben Israel, You state that a majority opposes the hitnatkut. Could you please show me one single official opinion poll that states the same? If I'm not wrong only the latest polls show a slightly increased opposition. If there has been a large majority in Knesset that should correspond a true majority also among the people. Or not? The disengagement opposers requested "Let the people decide". Do I have to understand that these chutzpaniks consider only themselves "The Nation" and that we others are not? In order to support your strong words, please give us an example on a true majority against the pullout. Shalom

Congratulations to Anna and Sarah who have laid the problem clear and simple: we man have made a shamble of this world and more so in the holy land. I don?t know what women think about disengagement but my experience with Palestinians and Israelis had shown me that women are more ready than the men to compromise and listen to the plight of others. At Bologna University we have had many meeting between Palestinians and Israelis: men meeting tended to end in shouting matches while women seemed more sedate and more able to create a bond between them that bodes well for the future. There are some Myriam too but they tend to be in the minority because they buy into male ideology. Those who are against disengagement have to tell us what will they do when 30 years from now the demographic balance west of the river will be 30% Jews and 70% Arabs, and they will begin to ask for one man one vote in a binational state. Don?t think that by that time the USA will stand with Israel: at the same period Muslims will outnumber Jews 1 to 3 with most of them in key states. If someone has doubt about how communitarian politics will come in play look at France.

"It`s not a matter of penis or vagina, but brain. My proposal is to leave Gaza Strip at one condition: the settlers must stay there!! Who wants those fanatics back anywhere. We can pay PA half the money they have costed Israel so far to mantain the settlements and it would be more than enough to keep them for a long time." So you would stick the Palestinians with Israel's settler problem?

The response of PZ to Anna's e-mail is typical of how Israel deals with so many of the problems confronting it. Sweep it under the rug. PZ admits that Israel has a long way to go in regard to the gender gap. But then he goes into this comparison game again: Yes, but, look at other nations and see how much better we are. It is never the problem itself within Israel. It is always, yes, but what about the others?? What this does is exactly reinforce the attitudes Anna is complaining about. It produces an attitude of: Aw, come on girls, you know you don't have it so bad! Look at Saudia Arabia. Israeli women can drive, right?? The PZ goes on to virtually tell Anna to keep hermouth shut in public since it might add fuel to the critics of Israel. In other words, there is a sickness, but don't treat it publically because the cure will only make it worse!

Thanks for clearing that up PZ. Though I do think that even when you think a woman sounds harsh, it is worth hearing what is under the harshness. Sometimes the harshness comes from repeatedly not being listened to.

Some thirty years ago, Golda Meir wrote a book entitled MY LIFE. She stated that one of the worst mistakes that she ever made was, just prior to the Yom Kippur War, listening to the advice of a man, and disregarding her own instincts. (I believe that I know who the man was, but I can't be absolutely sure.) When Israel was facing total destruction, Golda Meir brought in another man (by the name of Ariel Sharon) who reversed course of the Yom Kippur War and enabled Israel to survive as a nation. Golda Meir did not have to have a male sex organ to become the outstanding and respected leader of the Jewish people.

Today the transfer of Jews from Gaza to Israel. Tomorrow the transfer of Arabs from the Galilee to Palestine. The same laws and court rulings which allow the first, most certainly allow the second as well.

Yes, sadly you are a fundamentalist. Just as the christian rapturist who want to see the world blow up so that God will come again are fundamentalist. You see your own narrow view but now how it affects others. How do you feel when one of you men or boys shoots a Palestinian youth whose only crime was walking to school? The fundamentalist mentality, no matter which religion it belongs to, is bad news for the rest of humanity.

Yehudit, You can complain about the electoral and governmental systems of Israel as much as you like. But this is the system under which the settlements were established, and it is the system under which some of them will be removed. It is the system we currently have, and we must work with it. The people voted for Sharon and the Likud (twice). Sharon passed the disengagement through the knesset and the cabinet. What do you want, that we now re-structure the entire govt? Also, if other parties or even Likudniks thought that there would be more future votes in not disengaging, so they wouldn't disenage. The reason why a person like Netanyahu is still in the govt isn't for money. He has plenty of that. He's scared of alienating the center/majority in Israel, not to mention the Americans he hopes to resume working with some day.

Sarah somewhere writes: "Don`t allow the fundamentalist to cause another 50 years of bloodshed." "There is someone, somewhere who can apply this obnoxious statement to EVERY Jew on ANY piece of real estate in Israel." Sarah from Somewhere wrote nothing of the kind. Sarah wrote about all religious fundamentalist, not just Jewish. Why do you insist on living in 2000BC? We must make the best of the world today. Occupation holds you to a fuedalistic mentality that does not see the brotherhood or sisterhood we all share. You twist other's statements in an effort to prove dead arguments.

"Tell me PZ, would you opine that there is no glass ceiling in the UK workforce because Mrs. Thatcher was Prime Minister?" No, I would not. I've stated very clearly in all my posts that I think Israel has a lot of work left to do. I have only taken issue with the singling out of Israel or blanket statements about "Israeli men" (of which I am one). I am married to an independent and intelligent woman and of course I am/would be furious about any discrimination against her.

Please can "Sarah" explain to an elderley lady what she means by "fundamentalist?" Is it someone who is proud to be Jewish, loves every inch of Eretz Israel, does not understand Sharon's motive in destroying homes of people who are living on land which is ours, and which the "Palestinans" certainly do not want to share with us? Is a fundamentalist someone who wears a yarmulke, goes to Shul, doesn't want to see graves vandalised and shuls destroyed, and children uprooted? What is a fundamentalist that they can be responsible for the ills of a very bad corrupt Government??? and a very very biased media. I think I may be a fundamentalist.

As I just wrote in a previous post. My experience shows that men and women can be equally stupid. Here's the proof: Sarah somewhere writes: "Don`t allow the fundamentalist to cause another 50 years of bloodshed." There is someone, somewhere who can apply this obnoxious statement to EVERY Jew on ANY piece of real estate in Israel. Don't doubt it, Tel Aviv. Years after the abandonment of Gaza, after they've swallowed up Ashkelon and Ashdod, they will be on YOUR doorstep and someone, somewhere will say to you: "You JEWS are the reason JEWS are dead and bleeding in all the streets of Israel. Why did you ever think you had the right to be here? You came from Europe and took Arab land illegally! MOVE ON!! Last century it was the shtetl Jew who gave all cultured, Enlightened European Jews a bad name. Today it's the settler Jew who is making it hard on all Israeli Jews. Did you learn nothing from 20th century Europe, my brothers and sisters? A JEW IS A JEW IS A JEW TO ALL THOSE WHO HATE JEWS!!! It's time we stood TOGETHER against the Jew-haters and Jew-murderers who altogether do not recognize our right to ANY PORTION of this land. WE ARE ALL ISRAELI JEWS BECAUSE WE LOVE ISRAEL. Let us, ISRAELIS all, rally around that commonality. EVERY family who buys food and clothing and homes and appliances pays taxes in Israel. EVERY sector of society does army service (more than 50% wear kippot and Nahal Hareidi has grown every year of its existence.) There is NO JUSTIFICATION for divisions among JEWS in ISRAEL. WE ARE FAMILY HERE!! Even if we fight amongst ourselves, when someone from outside the family comes to attack us, everyone should know that his family will close ranks around him and come to his rescue. NO one hurts our FAMILY and gets away with it! If you in Tel Aviv were under this threat, do you suppose for even ONE MOMENT that your brothers and sisters, the so-called "Settlers" would not rush to your side and put their very bodies on the line for you??? The Jew-haters of the world encourage this in--fighting. It makes them feel justified in their hatred of us, to see us doing this to ourselves. They encourage it and then condemn us for it. JEWS OF ISRAEL---Learn a lesson and STOP giving them the satisfaction. If a Jew has no right to live in Gaza, he has no right to live in ANY part of the land of Israel.

It's not a matter of penis or vagina, but brain. My proposal is to leave Gaza Strip at one condition: the settlers must stay there!! Who wants those fanatics back anywhere. We can pay PA half the money they have costed Israel so far to mantain the settlements and it would be more than enough to keep them for a long time.

I did listen to both Anna and you. And I cared enough to respond. I think Anna's comment was too harsh against Israel whereas I agree more with your thoughts that there is gender inequality throughout the world. I think Israel actually stacks up quite well against many countries, although more work needs to be done.

PZ wrote: "The disengagement was passed in the cabinet and the knesset..." I'd like to point out that the members were/are not beholden to the citizenry, but only to the party machine. That's right, kiddies, the members of Knesset are NOT ELECTED by the vote of the citizens of Israel; therefore, they are not answerable to the citizens of Israel. Israeli voters elect A PARTY, NOT representatives. The party machine decides who gets the seats. Use the vilest part of your imagination to determine what one might need to do to ensure oneself of a favorable position. The goal in politics is to acquire and then to maintain power. Every cabinet and Knesset member knew that if he did not back Sharon's plan, he would lose his job and that's EXACTLY what happened to those who opposed it! Their acquiesence is not at all indicative of where the Israeli public stands. But wait, that's not all. About those popular public opinion polls...the most recent says 51% of the Israeli public supports the Sharon plan. Make note that this includes Israeli ARABS as well. Very small "majority" that and shrinking every day as people become more informed. Due to media manipulation and government disinformation, many Israelis who support the plan do so for invalid reasons: 1. They believe (erroneously) that it will bring peace. 2. They believe (erroneously) that it will separate Jews and Arabs for good. 3. They've never seen the area in question and so don't have a clue what it really means. As to women and the value of their opinions. In my 50+ years, I've found that men and women can be equally stupid. I've never needed outside affirmation of the worth and value of my opinion. That's why I offer it so freely to Ha'aretz readers. ;-) In case you didn't already guess,I'm FOR letting Jews keep the homes and businesses they've built over thirty years and FOR the expulsion of those who murder Jews just because they are Jews. (If this were not the case in Gaza, the Jews would be allowed to remain even in the event of ceding it to PA rule.) AGAINST giving a reward to terrorism.

I wouldn't agree quite as harshly as Anna, but Tamar Ish-Shalom has highlighted a shameful reality: Bearing in mind the militarized and sexist Israeli culture, there should be no surprises that Shavit clearly isn't interested in seeking out the opinions of his female co-citizens. As for the reponse claiming "most Israeli women oppose destroying Gush Katif", well that carries about as much weight as Proud Zionist's attempts to justify how progressive Israeli Society is by calling up a few shining examples. Tell me PZ, would you opine that there is no glass ceiling in the UK workforce because Mrs. Thatcher was Prime Minister? Gentlemen, if you have difficulty swallowing the fact that discrimination and violence against women is alive and well and living in Israel, try dressing up in drag and trying to hail a cab in any city. You'll get the picture pretty quickly.

The article asks what women think and the men attack. Happens the world over. Anna mearly states a fact. Men rule the world and they have made a shambles of it. If you want to know what women think, you must listen to what they say. Move forward with the withdrawals of the occupied territories. Don't allow the fundamentalist to cause another 50 years of bloodshed.

You seem to know what everyone wants Ben. How or are you just presuming that the majority want what you want? Have there been any polls done on the matter?

Ben Israel, Trying to prove that Sharon acted in a non-Democratic fashion is quite silly. The disengagement was passed in the cabinet and the knesset and was upheld during legal challenges. There is no need for Sharon to call a referendum, no law that says he must. A referendum would cost hundreds of millions of shekels and those who believe (like yoursel) that you alone can divine the word of G-d wouldn't accept the results of the referendum anyway. Would you accept a result that said the majority wants to disengage? Polls consistently show that the majority of Israelis don't support retaining Gaza during a final peace settlement, although the unilateral nature of this move and the lack of Palestinian reciprocation is making many people nervous.

Anna, As I'm sure you are aware, there is work to be done in EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY regarding women's rights. Israel certainly has a way to go, but how many countries have had a female prime minister? How many Middle Eastern countries even have female members of govt? I would of course like to see the gender gap narrowed, but your words seem too harsh and will be used by Israel's enemies on this message board. "the way most Israeli men think, well if it doesn`t have a penis, it must not have a relevent opinion." I'm an Israeli man and I don't think that way and neither do any of my friends. My wife is extremely intelligent and is currently getting an MA in Poly-Sci.

The women supposed to give back the ring. But in the vein of chesed,moral relativism and friendship with all G-ds creatures you can keep it!

Just as do the majority of men. This is why Sharon refuses to call new elections or allow a referendum on the matter in order to get a mandate from the public. All of you out there who claim "majority does support Sharon", please explain to me why he refuses to call elections or a referendum. If you can't, then just be quiet!

Shavit just reenforces what is crytstal clear, Israel is a Boy's club. It doesn't matter what sector you look at, women are paid less and have to work harder than men (with some expections). And if you have small children, forget about it, you're a write off. And I'm talking about educated women with good jobs. So if you don't have an education and a decent job, forget about it. Shavit is book is just an extension the way most Israeli men think, well if it doesn't have a penis, it must not have a relevent opinion.