An excellent meeting
Two statesmen met in Washington on Tuesday who are looking smaller and smaller, who are taking smaller and smaller steps.
By Gideon LevyIt really was an excellent meeting: The chance that a binational state will be established has improved as a result; relations between Israel and the United States are indeed "marvelous." Israel can continue with the whims of its occupation. The president of the United States proved Tuesday that perhaps there has been change, but not as far as we are concerned.
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Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu meeting with U.S. President Barack Obama at the White House on July 6, 2010 |
| Photo by: AP |
If there remained any vestiges of hope in the Middle East from Barack Obama, they have dissipated; if some people still expected Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to lead a courageous move, they now know they made a mistake (and misled others ).
The masked ball is at its peak: Preening each other, Obama and Netanyahu have proved that even their heavy layer of makeup can no longer hide the wrinkles. The worn-out, wizened old face of the longest "peace process" in history has been awarded another surprising and incomprehensible extention. It's on its way nowhere.
The "warm" and "sympathetic" reception, albeit a little forced, including the presidential dog, Bo, the meeting of the wives, with the U.S. president accompanying the Israeli prime minister to the car in an "unprecedented" way, as the press enthused, cannot obscure reality. The reality is that Israel has again managed to fool not only America, but even its most promising president in years.
It was enough to listen to the joint press conference to understand, or better yet, not understand, where we are headed. Will the freeze continue? Obama and Netanyahu squirmed, formulated and obfuscated, and no clear answer was forthcoming. If there was a time when people marveled at Henry Kissinger's "constructive ambiguity," now we have destructive ambiguity. Even when it came to the minimum move of a construction freeze, without which there is no proof of serious intent on Israel's part, the two leaders threw up a smoke screen. A cowardly yes-and-no by both.
More than anything, the meeting proved that the criminal waste of time will go on. A year and a half has passed since the two took office, and almost nothing has changed except lip service to the freeze. A few lifted roadblocks here, a little less blockade of Gaza there - all relatively marginal matters, a bogus substitute for a bold jump over the abyss, without which nothing will move.
When direct talks become a goal, without anyone having a clue what Israel's position is - a strange negotiation in which everyone knows what the Palestinians want and no one knows for sure what Israel wants - the wheel not only does not go forward, it goes backward. There are plenty of excuses and explanations: Obama has the congressional elections ahead of him, so he mustn't make Netanyahu angry.
After that, the footfalls of the presidential elections can be heard, and then he certainly must not anger the Jews. Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman is pressuring Netanyahu now; tomorrow it might be Likud MK Danny Danon, and after all, you can't expect Netanyahu to commit political suicide. And there you have it, his term in office is over, with no achievements. Good for you, Obama; bravo Netanyahu. You managed to make a mockery of each other, and together, of us all.
Netanyahu will be coming back to Israel over the weekend, adorned with false accomplishments. The settlers will mark a major achievement. Even if they don't not admit it - they are never satisfied, after all - they can rejoice secretly. Their project will continue to prosper. If they have doubled their numbers since the Oslo Accords, now they can triple them.
And then what? Here then is a question for Obama and Netanyahu: Where to? No playing for time can blur the question. Where are they headed? What will improve in another year? What will be more promising in another two years? The Syrian president is knocking at the door begging for peace with Israel, and the two leaders are ignoring him. Will he still be knocking in two years? The Arab League's initiative is still valid; terror has almost ceased. What will the situation be after they have finished compromising over the freeze in construction of balconies and ritual baths?
Two statesmen met in Washington on Tuesday who are looking smaller and smaller, who are taking smaller and smaller steps. They have decided not to decide, which in itself is a decision. When the chance of a two-state solution has long since entered injury time, they have decided on more extra time. Get ready for the binational state, or the next round of bloodletting.
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Mr Levy again and again exposes the true a nd real weaknessess of two men who adorn themselves as leaders. "Returning home with false accomplishments" is a true and real summary which I hope will put the Israeli people on notice to question their leader.But with the blind, bias, and ignorance typical of Israelis, I DONT SEE MUCH HOPE IN THE NEAR FUTURE. STATUS QUO WILL BE THERE FOR LONG LONG TIME YET.
Cassandra was the daughter of King Priam of Troy to whom Appolo granted the gift of prophecy. When Cassandra did not repay Appolo with her love, he cursed her by causing men not to believe her prophecies causing her endless frustration and pain. If one reads enough of Gideon Levy, one senses the tragedy of the prediction of the fall of Troy (Israel) and the curse of Appolo, that men do not believe our modern day Cassandra.
So Netanyahu is all happy now. He believes he has won. Building will resume, and Gaza's siege will not be lifted in any significant way, and may be tightened back down at the first opportunity. Obama waits until the November elections are over. No use risking losing more seats in Congress when this conflict has been going on for sixty years. Obama is feeding Netanyahu and Israel's right-wing rope. Everyone knows what they will do with that rope, and that will make Obama's task easier.
(1) Israel, mostly Jews with a sizable Arab minority; (2) Palestine, mostly Arabs with a small Jewish minority, (comprised almost exclusively of settlers who would not leave); and (3) Gaza.
Gideon Levy, this animal excrement should have been disposed of long time ago. Uncle Joe Stalin! Where are you when we need you most!
GIDEON WORLD LOVE YOU FOR TELLING THE TRUTH ISRAEL DOES NOT NEED A BABBY SITTER ALL ITS LIFE, ISRAEL HAS BRILLIANT PEOPLE WHO CAN TAKE CARE OF IT SELF WITH OUT BABY OR BIBI SITTER
RIGHT YOU ARE LEO..IRAEL AND ITS PEOPLE CAN TAKE GOOD CARE OF ITSELF ADMIRABLY. OU ARE CORRECT. Long Live Gideon?Oh I am, not so sure.Let him live till he is a 100 I don't mind.But I wish he'd be more loving to Israel where he was born!!!!!!!!!!!
brilliant; and unfortunately, all too real. Hats off to Israel's voice of conscience, Gideon Levy
Are you going to wait another 2 years for Kadima PM? Give Netanyahu a chance. It is better than wasting time waiting for another guy. And Palestinian side seems is ready to a settlement
Israel will not become part of an Islamist Hamastan or a Baathist Fatahland.
It takes two to Tango and while Obama and Bibi take tango lessons, the Arab leaders are still trying to put thumb tacks in our dancing shoes and will not even agree to what music to dance to or where, or why, or with out insisting that they lead, and so on... Why is it always Israel's fault? What has the PLO EVER done to advance peace? EVER?
more annoying than liberman
Gideon, you have hit the nail on the head, it is refreshing to hear the voice of logic & common sense for a change!
with one side amused and the other`s not
This is once again proof thbeen quietly assuming a position of power that few have seen coming. if we look at current headlines we have Arab nations lining up behind tat Israel has a master politician at its helm. Despite tensions and many worry in the press Israel has he idea of an attack on Iran, Israel has been invited to a European organization on trade the united nations has refused to have a hearing on the flotilla and has all but denounced the human rights commission's investigation while stalling on an international investigation of its own. The United States is bending over backwards to show good feeling towards Israel while the issue of Jerusalem and even the settlement freeze seem to be off the table for now and lastly Hamas has exercised a cease fire and there has been a dramatic decrease in the number of rockets and attacks on Israelis. This is the best position that the current Israeli government could have imagined given the situation on the ground and one of the main reasons that Israel has been able to remain so strong is its experienced prime minister so Yasher koach Bibi.
This is once again proof thbeen quietly assuming a position of power that few have seen coming. if we look at current headlines we have Arab nations lining up behind tat Israel has a master politician at its helm. Despite tensions and many worry in the press Israel has he idea of an attack on Iran, Israel has been invited to a European organization on trade the united nations has refused to have a hearing on the flotilla and has all but denounced the human rights commission's investigation while stalling on an international investigation of its own. The United States is bending over backwards to show good feeling towards Israel while the issue of Jerusalem and even the settlement freeze seem to be off the table for now and lastly Hamas has exercised a cease fire and there has been a dramatic decrease in the number of rockets and attacks on Israelis. This is the best position that the current Israeli government could have imagined given the situation on the ground and one of the main reasons that Israel has been able to remain so strong is its experienced prime minister so Yasher koach Bibi.
GIdeon should have been a stand up Comic!
The LEVY/LEFTY "PROJECT" : To humiliate Israel and Jewish raison d'etre for the sake of a PEACE -but on PAL terms where the best result is that Israel is grudgingly given its 1948 borders and the worst result is that it is "granted" a "reservation of DHIMMITUDE" status in "Palestine" . THe PAL "PROJECT" (in TRUTH )--to WIPE ISRAEL off the map...to exterminate the Jews from PALESTINE (ALL OF IT) or MAYBE let them stay as 2nd class "citizens" paying "protection money" to the pALs--ie. a JIZYA tax. IN truth to HUMILIATE the JEWS as ALLAH directs in the Koran. (BUT LEVY can't see THAT PROJECT). THE JEWISH "PROJECT"-IN TRUTH to get back ALL the land promised by GOD to them -for IF they give up an inch of that promise-it means they spit at God and love PEACE (even if it is PEACE under duress and SUBUED to the terms imposed by OTHERS) over THE CONTRACT with GOD...CONTRACT broken... THEN logically MUST abandon GOD.. THUS LEVY--the ATHEIST-gets his PARADISE wish -- NO ISRAEL,NO JEWS, and a temporary ATHEIST "RESERVATION" -temporary UNTIL the PALS turn on their ATHEIST "pals"-because you see,THEY,unlike the JEWS Levy calls to commit cultural-religious-historical HARA-KIRI--they the PALS have a stronger committment to their ARAB-ISLAMIC hegemonist idyll. THEY can't and won't abandon ALLAH -or at least what their IMAMS say about dealing with JEWS-YET LEVY wants the JEWS to abondon their GOD and what he planned.. AS a lefty ATHEIST,LEVY "preaches" ONE SIDE ONLY (ISRAEL) to give in/give up its LOGICAL purpose --he fails to INSIST the PALS do likewise. UNTIL LEVY has the guts to say NO PEACE DEAL unl;ess BOTH sides turn ATHEIST -his insistence that the JEWS "COCEDE" territory and logical purpose to continue as Jews under terms DICTATED by OTHERS--is ridiculously BIASED. LEVY does not see the fallacy in PEACE for PEACE sake..IT cannot be just for PEACE's sake because there are 2 CONFLICTING imperatives here: 1. The JEWISH imperative to hold to the REASON for a Jewish State in its promised homeland -else wHY maintain the Jewish purpose at all? VS. 2. The ARAB/ISLAMIC PURPOSE (Project) -which always was to expand the ummah out from Arabia,, grab the infidel's lands after killing or concerting them or with an exceotion for People Of the Book (Jews and Christians) to let them live as "protected" in a mUSLIM land -by paying the 'protection tax" . THUS the PAL /MUSLIM PROJECT conflicts with the JEWISH PROJECT... BOTH are valid PROJECTS from each's own historical and religious perspective-but LOGICALLY both "PROJECTS" cannot co-exist simultaneously... It is a logical impossibility. There is no possible compromise EXCEPT both abandoning their religion..and that implies a TOTALLY DIFFERENT "PROJECT". THUS if LEVY asks only the JEWISH side to give concessions-it it a totally BIASED support for the PAL/ISLAM PROJECT..HE cannot ask for both to compromise as they really then have no logical place to go..its at best only a temporary hiatus from a bigger DISPUTE. LEVY fails to think : WHY should "JEWS"--even secular ones- pretend ANY further affiliation with their God,Torah or history IF the promise of the HOMELAND given in all that effort over the centuries now holds NO PURPOSE at all should LEVY's advice to abandon THE PROJECT be taken? OR he fails to think: WHY should the PALS remain MUSLIM if they must CONCEDE to a LEVY PEACE deal whereby i) the JEWS still exist -even WORSE if they are now really all ATHEISTS--anematha to ALLAH-- and ii) as LEVY's plan does not allow for any "protection tax"-so if you can't totally humiliate and subdue the Jew -what is the point ? IT can't be an Islamic Sate. ON the other hand -if LVY is calling for BOTH SIDES to first be AHEISTS and BOTH to abandon GOd (as they each define GOD)...THEN and ONLY THEN can PEACE in ATHEISTLAND actually be a "solution". Hoever LEVY has NEVER stated an "ATHEISM OR BUST" idea.Instead his mantra is typical lefty -GET THE JEW to concede to te MUSLIM garbage ..so his lefty morally superior PEACE mantra is exposed as a biased program for the victory of ONE SIDE (HIS PALS) over trhe JEWISh "CAUSE"...THE victory of the ARAB /ISLAMIC "PROJECT" ober the JEWISH "CAUSE" ... ONe gets sick of this lefty peacenik BIAS in directing the terms of "PEACE" -because any kindergartner can tell you-ITS not going to work.. WHY SHOULD THE JEWS give up THEIR JEWISH HOMELAND IDEA and let the ENEMY win THEIR MUSLIM SUPERIORITY-HEGEMONY IDEA ? IF LEVY truely is a peacenik -then he must choose: EITHER call on both sides to FIRST abandon GOD and become atheists-THEN and ONLY then can real peace talks be held... OR lEvy must chose his side and which PROJECT to back: JEWISH HOMELAND per THE JEWISH IDEA ..or PAL HOMELAND per the MUSLIM idea. THE TWAIN cannot..should not co-exist because tHAT would be HYPOCRISY .... why do hypocrisy? You cannot force the Jew to do it while the MUslim gets a pass on it --jews who do that would be idiots or lunatics. Does Levy expect Muslims to jettison the Koran and just LOVE all the "apes and pigs" that are his Jewish brothers and sisters? WHAT PLANE ARE YOU FROM--LEVY? So Mr, Gideon Levy-LEASE STOP all articles urging the ripping up of the JEWISH PROJECT -until you at least ALSO call for the ripoing up of THE MUSLIM PROJECT. IF you cannot see ATHEISTS from JERUSALEM to MECCA --then STOP asking only ONE SIDE to give up its PURPOSE.. THis has ZERO to do with WHO is a JEW and OBSERVANCE arguments--that is another topic for debate... RATHER it is a logical question of WHY BOTHER WITH STICKING UP FOR YOUR IDEA -which came MILENNIA EARLIER THAN THEIR IDEA (in which the johnny come late;ly's got the idea to wipe the Jews out OR sUBJECT them to a protection racket under ISLAMIUC hegemony. THAT IS THE LOGIC of this "PROBLEM"-both "PROJECTS" cannot co-exist in the same space.. IT is different than the JEWISH-CHRISTIAN "DISPUTE" over the nature of Jesus. AT least in that case Christians finally learned to leave it upto God to prove their case at the END TIME (Jews are happy to let Christiams amuse themelves with a false version of the ENd time)-but at least there is no more hatred and NOLAND DISPUTE ...no so with the JEWISH-MUSLISM dispute despite both believing in the GOd of Abraham.. THe reasonthere cANNOT be compromise-is EXACTLY the KORAN and what it tells MUSLIMS of dealing with Jews... This gives them the idea that JEWS cannot be loyal enough to God to deserve their HOMELAND BACK-- and if Jews are "apes and pigs" and the "wporst enemy" of a Muslim says ALLAH to big MO via angel Gabriel, well- you gonna be a bad MUslim and take the jew as friernd? Leave all the land to him? Or are you going to do what Allah says-- humiliate and subdue the Jew -make him SUBMIT to the protection tax (If you haven't killed him first). So Mr. LEVY-why don't you ADMIT the Jews have a big MUSLIM problem --and asking Jews to CONCEDE anything to that problem is indeed a HUMILIATION and a confirmation to MUSLIMs that ALLAH wins and the JEW will lose. So-either CALL on both sides to give up religion BEFORE any peace can be made-OR SHUT THE HECK UP -because NO PEACE with any honour to their own IDEAS is possible because both IDEAS are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE-there is no room for compromise -you cannot have BOTH sides be "winners" in this..and if eitherside concedes a loss THEN it stigmatizes as hypocrisy making the concession even more disgreaceful to THE PROJECT each envisaged. LEvy-lefties FAIL to understand the religious bsckgrounf IMPERATIVES of their PROJECTS ..YOU cannot push one side only to give up its PROJECT. In such stalemate -it MUST be a battle to the bitter end--ONE SIDE exterminates the other's POJECT from history..BOTH pROJECTS cannot logicakly co-exist. PERIOD. THE solution THEN is either TOTAL WAR till one side is expunged from history--OR TOTAL REJECTION OF BOTH PROJECTS -which means the end of both JUDAISM and ISLAM (and we have to throw in Christianity -because neither will convert to that. SO there you have it LEVY: AN all-ATHEIST CUMBIAH LAND ..or a TOTAL VICTORY for JEWS or MUSLIMS...it cannot end any other way...Certainly not by unrealistic concession "solutions" imposed on Isreal by one Gideon Levy or lefty idiots of his ilk. Idiots because they cannot understan the dimensions of the problem-so their quick fix of Israeli cioncessions is UNSUSTAINABLE as the PALS will eventually ask for MORE CONCESSIONS. Their PROJECT's imperative demands it.
The meeting with Obama was a bad joke. Bad for Israel. Bad, because it ensures that nothing significant will happen to bring about a real Palestinian state. There will be more talk (direct or indirect makes no difference) and more talk, but no action. Bibi will offer far too little, if anything. Sooner or later, the Palestinians will formally announce the end of the Palestinian Authority and w will all be on our way to a bi-national state...and ultimately to a Palestinian state.
Two stakes for two statesmen indeed - the stake of obfuscation, the stake of status quo. Poor old Obama, who would have thunk it of so promising a lad!! Pete Edler, Stockhol
gideon, if you love that much that pm of israel be an arab and mayor of your city another i stronglly sugessted that you get the hell out of israel and go to jordan or yeman or somalia even better to lybia how about thatt
Your remarks about the futility of the peace process are perfectly valid, but this meeting fulfilled the immediate political needs of both leaders -- and fooled neither of them. In the run-up to the fall elections, Obama cannot afford to give the Republicans grounds for saying he is hostile to Israel. Netanyahu needs to demonstrate that he still has good relations with Washington. Each got what he wanted. Certainly the meeting was not a step towards much of anything -- but no one was fooled. Notice the absence of any joint press conference. They didn't even PLAN to agree. They know perfectly well they don't.
IS a binational state. This will relieve them of having to worry about Israel's continued troubles in a 2 state situation (basically, a way to continue a non-peace status quo). The CIA came out with a study that if you just sit and wait, Israel as we know it will disappear. This is fact, google it. I believe that there is more than meets the eye here. For America, waiting for a binational solution is the easiest way to get rid of the Israel burden
Okay, when there are no hot news, no hot drama, HAARETZ will order a provocative article from GIDEON LEVY. You've got life revenues, GIDEON!
Okay, when there are no hot news, no hot drama, HAARETZ will order a provocative article from GIDEON LEVY. You've got life revenues, GIDEON!
Jordan/Palestine is the logical solution and the only one to this conflict.
We can talk about 2 states and we can even create an arab state which will never be truly viable just 5800km, in 2 parts, shortage of recources and growing population sure in theory its easy and nice romantic ideal of the underdog palestinians getting a state from big bad Israel but if we want a solution thats going to work and bring peace thats not it. A single state where palestinians become Israelis is also not an option. The best solution would be for Israel to officially annex Judea and Samaria and it legally becomes part of Israel. Jordan is give a nice big pay off from an international fund and n exchange they give citizenship to all palestinians. The now Jordanian citizens living in whats now Israeli territory can be granted permament residency visas so whilst not being Israeli citizens they will be allowed to live in Israel as Jordanians ( although that doesn't entitle them to buy property all over Israel but if they want to leave their homes then the Israeli government will be obligated to buy if no private buyer is found. The government can then sell on that land to developers, JNF, individuals to cover its cost so the arabs know they will always have a buyer. Israel keeps all the settlements, the land isn't divided creating a non vable tiny palestinian state, no division of Jerusalem because it is not and never has been the capital of Jordan, palestinians will not have to leave their homes, they will be citizens of a very big country with a developed economy with a liberal & stable leadership, 80% of Jordans population is decended from the original refugees so they are as good as living in a palestinian state, Jordan gets a pay off, Israel gets land and keeps its jewish identity. As the leadership is stable and has the authority to speak for all and is capable and willng to put down any potential terrorists and Jordan has a peace treaty with israel already. Its not politically correct to propose and the palestinians don't get a state but the reality on the ground is just about everybody is a winner and virtually nobody has to actually change their lives for the sake of a peace process. Its a solution like this we should have been looking for from the begining rather than oslo and putting the idea of a palestinian state into peoples minds this would have been
If you are stupid enough to believe Obama and Netanyahu, the two most ignorant and stupid people in the world today.
Everytime I read one of his gideon's pieces, I find myself wondering if he is all there in the head. He sounds like he's more than a few cards short of a deck. Binational state? Get real, no one can force this on Israel, it's the arabs who have everything to lose here if they want a pal state next to Israel which they don't, they just want Israel gone. Obama may finally be doing the right thing for once, letting Bibi do what needs to be done for Israel...the status quo will continue until the arabs realize they will never destroy Israel. Then and only then will true "peace" talks begin.
...will lead to a binational state anyway so who are trying to fool?
Hamas ousted Fatah forces from Gaza in a bloody coup, throwing Fatah members off the roofs of buildings after shooting them in the knees. At least one Fatah member was sliced into steaks that were sent to his family. Since Gaza had been totally evacuated by Israel in the unilateral disengagement of 2005, Hamas currently (2009) rules Gaza as a de facto state government. It has used Gaza as a base for launching rocket attacks against Israel. The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights. "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory). "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. " "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
Gosh golly darn. Those little men who met at the White House yesterday, pipsqueaks in Gideon Levy's eyes. Not like those giants of diplomacy and freedom: Abu Mazen and Khaled Mashal. Yes, if Abu Mazen of Fatah and Khaled Mashal of Hamas could be unleashed, there'd be peace tomorrow! Oh right. The two would probably kill each other, and Hamas would certainly also kill Obama and Netanyahu, because they most decidedly do not want peace. I guess Gideon Levy forgot that part. And Abu Mazen probably couldn't manage his household budget, let alone the affairs of a nacent state. But sure, let's just talk about those two tiny men in Washington yesterday. That's so much easier for Gideon Levy to do.
"Bloodletting" as you say, is my prediction. The reason: it would take peace off the table and Israel thinks it can win. The cost would be high, but less to this foolish government that that of peaceful relations with its neighbors. How they can do this to their own people is beyond me.
... Obama is dancing a debka with Bibi, and trying to direct it in the desired direction... ... the previous arm-twisting performance was mutually refractory...
Gideon do you have your bags packed for a quick getaway?
This is a good day - ANY day in which Gideon Levy is unhappy is a good day.
there will never be a bi national state. that "concept" is laughable and for academic dreamers, leftists and jew haters...it leads only to one place and you know it gideon... when you say , "The president of the United States proved Tuesday that perhaps there has been change, but not as far as we are concerned", who does the "WE" stand for? lol What, you and your friends at haaretz? your leftist friends or what's left of them in israel? lol... I'd like to see you try to make peace and give israel the security it needs...you make it sound as if israel doesnt have to worry about that...my god man, how naive can you be? "bold jumps over the abyss" get you killed. I love leftists..always with wonderful words, never with anything concrete and rationale. Bibi is committed to a 2 state solution, but not at any price. He actually is negotiating to protect you gideon you unappreciative fool.
..."the oldest established permanent floating crap game in New York?" (Well, the venue has changed, but it's sure still a crap game, ain't it?)
Unfortunatelly mental illness can manifest itself in an article like that.
the demands are always towards Israel to give something yet it is the palestinians who never give. The position of the right is clear, they belive that the palestinians belong in jordan which is the original league of nations mandate for them. However, for the sake of peace they are willing to make concessions towards the disputed territories which .guarantee security and equity for jewish interests in the west bank. Simil;ar to the Irish catholics accepting the imported scot protestants into their midst for the sake of peace.
His perspective is always that of the arabs. I wonder if he thinks jews should go back to Poland and Germany. What is his rationale for the existence of jews in Israel?
Is there in the arab world a newspaper like Haaretz and a so called reporter like Gideon? If the answer is yes then everything will be possible even peace and understanding. The answer is "no", so Gideon you are completely out of context.
False Hope Buys Time and More Land.
Israel is a strange country in that it has no fixed borders. The more that the settlements expand the less likely it is that an Independent Palestine can exist. That leaves only two option - a) a single state for Jews, Christians and Muslims, or b) a single Jewish state containing isolated ghettoe-like enclaves for non-Jews with less rights etc. Netanyahu might dream about a third option. A Jewish Israel taking in most of former-Palestine with most non-Jews subsisting in a fragmented and isolated mini-state and citizens of some other entity
That 2 state solution will be an unstable place is a forgone conclusion. But since it will be a disaster to say so, it has been decided to "pursue" a 2-state solution.
Netanyahu looked grey, ill and old. Obama's face was drawn. He looked sick and he was speaking with difficulty. Constant lying is taking a toll on both of them. As Israel turns country after country in the world against it, I wonder what its hold on the U.S. is. The best explanation I've heard so far is that Israel risks becoming completely isolated, bitter and delusional. Add the nuclear arsenal into that and the result is disaster.
Made me laugh,because in a wayyiou are right. But then what did you expect,miracles? little by little this charade will dissipate and one or the other i.e BHO, and Bibi a solution will emerge to balance the thoughts of both. You know what Gideon,as far as Obama is concerned,he is definitely for HIMSELF only. Seeing the smiles,shaking of hands etc is all for not only home consumption,but to please his Arab buddy boys.If you think he is genuine toward Israel than you failt to understand the character of the man who is a manipulator extraordinair.
Here we hear from another zionist blowhard who is part of that set that tried to make out Obama as being a member of AlQueda. Enough said on that blather. No fact will be enough to wash out their mouths. But it does take the cake for him to accuse Obama of being the manipulator. Few nations in the world have presented a leader who is more duplicious, deceitful, so hypocritical as the one and only netanyahu. The glutton who says he will share the cake while at the same time devouring it.
... to appease his "Arab buddy boys"? What are you smoking?
Well?
By Buddy boys if you remember how Obama went to BOW LOW DOWN to the Saudi King.....and other Arabs too....buddy boys get it you who asked?
Or forgetful.Not what you surmise fools. I was trying to remind you about Obama's bowing SO LOW to the Saudi King and other Arabs in the region.Enough.Posted it was not picked but left standing there by all to see at Haaretz.Too busy no doubt.You could have "cut and pasted" it.
No one can still say there is no powerful lobby which may curve US politics to Israel's interest and line it with those of israel? israel is the most powerful state in the US and the ruler of them all. israeli rightwing is the only one who deserve to claim: YES WE CAN!
I AGREE AND AM PLEASED TO READ YOUR ASSUMPTIONS.Because of my feelings toward Israel trumps all the negative ones written here most of the time.What is wrong having "POWER" ? Okay?
Americans who want their country back need to face the whole truth, not just a bit of it.
Power sincerly serving justice, human rights and equity would be wonderful. Power serving despotic and unjust aims should be fought by every man and woman who believe in human values.
Power sincerly serving justice, human rights and equity would be wonderful. Power serving despotic and unjust aims should be fought by every man and woman who believe in human values.
The American public is highly supportive of Israel. It's the anti-Israeli imbeciles who are in the minority in the States.
Keep saying it. You and your ilk disgust me.
I think by now we can change America's motto to "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...unless you're a Palestinian" - don't you think?
You can't tell what was said, what others said, what others did, unless you were a fly on the wall. And, even then, you could easily misinterpret. Obama is a friendly parrier. In the same week, the PA issued statements that contained carrots and definitions, actually the same combination of carrots and definitions that Israel presents itself as. "We are very willing to make considerable compromises, and even some that might be fundamental. But, we need to see commitment." In the case of Israel, the indication of commitment required is cessation of any Israeli development in the West Bank, any development on the Palestinian side of the green line. That is doable, certainly tangibly, and even politically. (It might improve enthusiasm for likud, if people concluded that they were effective at anything, say reducing actual tensions.) I think you are a more effective writer when you identify the specific conditions that you hope that leaders will pay attention and commit to. This column struck me as you giving up, distrusting more than engaging.
That's the way God teaches us how to see what is no apparent. Good and honest talks and acts bring good developments, fair changes. Superficial ones bring status quo succeded by more injustice.
All points of view are available in Israel. Haaretz may soon decide to give al-Qaeda a well deserved pulpit, too.
That's why I normally ignore his posts.
then Hamas isn't so bad. Then Hamas supports the Jewish state of Israel. ...none of which is true, so your claim is absurd.
Everyone one knows there has to be earth shatter- ing action on Israel's part now to lift the blockade on Gaza and to get its troops and settlers the hell out of the Palestinian territories and out of Pale-stinian lives... Otherwise, people will be on the streets, outside Israeli embassies and at the Pentagon calling for a halt of aid to Israel and on the high seas once again. Now, what part of get with it don't those two leaders still understand? Dutch
I despise right-wing settler mentality, but I despise even more the "peace activists" who advocate forceful removal of 500,000+ people from the land many of them were born on.
can't see one complaining about Israel. We hear many complaining about the brutal pals. RETURN SCHALIT!
Which part of your "Jews get out," demand being completely unethical and racist don't YOU understand?
... did exactly that? Starting with Gaza. Switch off the electricity, fuel, water, stop the UNRWA transfers of goods, leaving everything to Egypt, or whoever wanted to babysit that bunch?
Arafat and Abbas have many years demanded that the borderline should be 1967 line plus right of return. At first, right of return would mean that nobody but jews live in the west bank, UN 242 requires borders to be negoatiated between Israel and the parties of the war. Jordan did not want to negotiate any more than their peace agreement with Israel. As it is today Abbas waits to get internationnal approval for 1967 borders and this prevents any useful peace agreement. When 242 was made 1967 borders suggested by arabs were rejected by UN as the border but nobody seem to care about it, not US, not EU, not Ban Ki-moon and even NOT ISRAELI GOVERNEMENT. The bottom was Olmert's proposal , how many percent remains to Israel, only a fraction of required secure borders. 242 requires secure borders and at first IDF should determined what these borders should be and negotiations based on that. Before reaching an agreement with pals Israel legally controls WB. It is jewish homeland based on 1922 decisions by League of Nations which nobody has cancelled. Israel should make a lot of propaganda of UN resolution of secure borders and proove that only problem in preventing agreement are pals who don't want to negotiate on any reasonable basis confirmed by UN.
S: "UN 242 requires borders to be negoatiated between Israel and the parties of the war" No, it said no such thing. It said that everyone had to recognize each other's boundaries. It said nothing about one side or another - or, indeed, anyone - having the right to demand that those boundaries be redrawn to their benefit. That's not to say that the boundaries CAN NOT be redrawn, but it is to say that Res 242 does not "require" that the boundaries MUST BE redrawn.
This is not leading towards a binational state, nice scare story Gideon but not the reality. The rest of the world might love the idea of a single state but in Israel the vast majority object to the idea. Bibi has certainly got one over on Obama & probably Abbas thanks to this little chat. I am sure he has agreed to some minor concessions like a further suspension of building in Judea & Samaria. If Abbas refuses to talk because he isn't happy with Israels concessions he becomes the bad guy and Bibi is the peace maker and the fact Congress has endorsed Bibi & the midterms & presidential elections around the corner Obama is going to have to start getting tough on Abbas for a change. As for Syria Assad is not and never has been serious about peace he has been serious about taking the Golan and Kineret water but thats about it. He hasn't even offered a full peace with exchange for the Golan rather some kind of truce. Assad will be knocking offering hopes of a false peace as long as it takes to get what he wants and he certainly won't be getting anything this side of the 2012 election because Obama has committed himself to the palestinian cause. Win or lose if the Golan referendum bill passes a third reading then that will commit the government to hold a referendum on the future of the Golan unless 80 MKS decide to give it up rather than the current 61 out of 120 MKS and there is currently no referedum demand. Let the people decide also takes the pressure of the political establishment in Israel & the US
The Israel that wants one state is leading the battle both in the West Bank and in Jerusalem. The one state it wants is Arab-free and it will have less compunction than most Israelis about achieving that. It sees hope ahead with every stumbling step that is taken towards direct negotiations because it knows they are designed to lead nowhere.
Problem with your theory is that there is a 20% Arab population in Israel. Areas which came under Jewish control still maintain a large Arab population with full rights. Areas which came under Arab control were wiped clean of Jews. The Arabs demand that the Jews stop growing in their own communities. Which side tries to achieve the ethnically-pure status?
zionist forever knows that. They just don't talk about it. The play the 2 state solution game but plot out their plan on the ground that goes in the complete opposite direction. It is Israel that is building the binational state and that has been the zionist imperative all along: gain the maximum amount of territory and settle it with the maximum amount of Jews and disposses and sideline completely the Arab population. That is what Israel is doing with their objective being possession of the two banks of the Jordan and all of Jerusalem including occupied EJ. The zionist imperative--a binational state by, for and with Jews only.
I HAVE YET TO SEE ONE ISRAELI MAKE A POSITIVE COMMENT ABOUT A FUTURE PEACE OTHER THAN LEVY. KEEP ON LIVING IN AGONY, FALSITY AND STUPIDITY ISRAELIS, UNTIL THE GOD KINGDOM COME. THREE CLAPS TO ALL ISRAELIS AND THE 3 STOOGES NETANYAHU, LIEBERMAN AND BARAK. I ASK YOU TO THINK OF THE FUTURE ISRAELI AND PALESTINIAN CHILDREN. DO YOU THINK ISRAELI ATTITUDE IS GOING TO PROVIDE A BRIGHT FUTURE. YES. ONLY IF YOU KILL ALL THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA. THIS IS THE ONLY FUTURE ISRAEL IS PLANNING ON.
I HAVE YET TO SEE ONE ISRAELI MAKE A POSITIVE COMMENT ABOUT A FUTURE PEACE OTHER THAN LEVY. KEEP ON LIVING IN AGONY, FALSITY AND STUPIDITY ISRAELIS, UNTIL THE GOD KINGDOM COME. THREE CLAPS TO ALL ISRAELIS AND THE 3 STOOGES NETANYAHU, LIEBERMAN AND BARAK. I ASK YOU TO THINK OF THE FUTURE OF ISRAELI AND PALESTINIAN CHILDREN.
obama should atleast show decency and return the noble peace prize or share it with netenyahu.
Reading Levy's column reminds me of Tariq Ramadan who calls for “One State Solution” As we all know, Ramadan’s “One State Solution” would be the final solution for the Jews… But Frere Tariq is a good Muslim, and he follows the script of the Koran and his grandfather Hassan al Banna, founder of the “Ikhwan”, the Muslim Brotherhood… This is the real basis of the Arab/Israeli conflict: not a conflict over land or occupation, but a divine obligation to destroy neighboring (non-Muslim) Israel, where Jews are no longer dhimmis but are free to rule themselves. We cannot ignore the root of the problem in Muslim scriptures. That is the true force behind the hate and propaganda Jihadist machine against Jews in the Muslim world.
Rarely have I seen such a condensate load of crap in a comment. So Gideon Levy is in cahoots with Tarek Ramadan who is the reincarnation of Hassan al-Banna. and of course the conflict is religious that's why it's always been there, since lets say a 100 years. What an inspiration.
How blind are you to blame the Koran for issuing a "'divine obligation to destroy neighboring (non-Muslim) Israel. where Jews are no longer dhimmis but are free to rule themselves'? Zionism may have started as a predominantly secular political movement, but in reality the religious claims to the 'promised land' have been fueling the settlement of 'Samaria and Judea', as they call the West Bank, using biblical names. A divine obligation to dispossess Palestinians of their ancestral lands, to destroy the development of a Palestinian state for the sake of reclaiming Eretz Ysrael, where the native population are 'dhimmis' at best and not free to rule themselves' -- this is what Zionism has been, and still is, establishing as the facts on the ground, and the social and political reality. So now you blame the Koran for the conflict, when expelling and killing Palestinians was the prize to be paid for establishing Israel, and is all but a religious imperative for the radical settlers on the WB, who are well represented in the IDF and government? That is the 'true force behind the hate and propaganda Jihadist machine against Jews in the Muslim world': the Zionist hate and propaganda machine against Arabs and Muslims in the Muslim world. Neither Muslim terrorism nor Jihadism existed before the Zionist colonial project, backed by US imperialism and evangelism.
Sumayah, I applaud your candor. It's not a few Jihadis that are the problem. It's not the terrorists. It is the Moslem faith and all who adhere to it. If you are right, Israel must preemptiively kill them, n'est pas? Or at a minimum, dent them democratic rights, until they convert.
And what does the Torah say in the mindset of Shas and Yisrael Beiteynu? What do they believe about the Land of Israel? What does Jewish law say about the gentile in the land of Israel?
No one is asking Israel to continue the expansion. It's a purely internal thing, largely driven by the "settlers".
But that kind of people never have the time to reach their aim. And the way they die shows there is a real will that is opposed to a real peace process. Could it come from the weapons lobby? Like for the development of new non-polluting energies, those who founded their richness on petroleum are the bridle. Obama and Netanyahu see each other very often, they seem to be good friends and, as everybody knows it, no well-educated persons would talk religious and/or political matters because these items bring anger... So, what could they talk about? Maybe football, dress, cinema, holiday... just like most new friends would. Are there suffering peoples? They sure don't experience it up there...
Why do you assume that those two fellows would have achieved peace? Do you have any sense of history. Did you just try to pick two names people would know?Oh, I forgot Kennedy was responsible for the Bay of Pigs fiasco.
JFK put Crushev where he belonged up the spout,or up the river withouta paddle.And down he came from the ladder. No more SHOE thumping. And the troubles were averted.Oh I see you forgot..
It is clear that Netanyahu's visit was to meet with his Zionist bosses in the U.S. to device a way on how to setup the U.S. to fight the next war with Iran for Israel. I don't believe any thing serious was discussed regarding the two State solution.
You're aware of the political clout he's got to maneuver around because of the upcoming elections, and one thing that WAS emphasized everywhere was that this meeting was choreographed down to the finest little detail - there would be NO ruffling of feathers(although gritting of teeth was authorized). This suggests that this meeting was directly oriented towards those elections...just as the end of Netanyahu's "10 month freeze" was specifically timed to coincide with the final few weeks leading up to them. Obama may just be playing the cards Bibi dealt him. So anyway, some of us are still holding out for Obama to take a more proactive and aggressive intitiative once the November hurdle is over with. One thing for sure though... in the long run, this issue is certainly going to put his integrity to the test.
"WeCan2" refers to the "November hurdle." Small correction for you, "We," you are facing a November DEBACLE, not a hurdle. Bibi knows this, as do all other observers of the political scene: Hussein Obama is about to lose his support in Congress, as the vile dems are about to suffer a trmemndous electoral defeat. At that point, your messiah, the Caliph B. Hussein Obama, will lose any possiblity of doing any further damage to Israel, and you, Gidi Levy, Amira Hass and all your other lovely friends can sit around weeping. I think I'll buy some ice cream - just thinking about this makes me happy.
Courageous move? Are you joking? When both of them do not intend to endanger their post in any way? A farce will do, instead. Why should the freeze continue? Freezing the freeze is the next expedient to undermine the direct talks with the Palestinians, which are expected soon to resume as part of this heartening show. No one knows what Israel wants? You really do not know? What Israel wants are the lands, all of them and to find a way to continue weakening the Palestinians, so that it will be easier to keep them under control. In the eyes of the right, which has proved to represent most of the population, this would be progress. There is nothing to complain about.
"The Arab League's initiative is still valid; terror has almost ceased." So has the removal of stolen cars to the West Bank. Does Mr. Levy think that the Arab League's proposal has anything to do with *that*? Or could it be that once Israel made it more difficult for Palestinians to enter the country (aka "discovered that Thais and Chinese are willing to work just as cheaply with the added advantage that they have no means for complaining about their treatment" or, if you want to be less obviously cynical, "built a wall"), they also made it more difficult for terrorists to enter the country?
Where are the qassams from the West Bank? Because it is indisputably true that (a) if you want to spread terror and (b) there is a wall in your way then (c) the response is to fire rockets OVER that wall. So where are those West Bank qassams, Richard?
noticing...... AMAZING!!!!! (when folk believe their own country's propaganda, the country is in deep sh*te...
Whereas qassams can get to Gaza thru' Egypt and sometimes bt sea, and to Lebanon from Syria and Iran, where can qassams come from/to the West Bank ?
I take it that Mr. Levy's "everyone" does not include the Palestinians, since they themselves do not seem to know what they want. If what the Palestinians want is, for example, what Hamas claims that they want, then the Palestinians have to be aware that no one in Israel (except perhaps for Mr. Levy) is going to take their "wants" seriously. Actually, it's pretty clear that Mr. Levy doesn't take what the Palestinians claim to want very seriously -- at least, he doesn't seem to be making much of an effort to "return" to them the land on which his house sits.
The one and only recognized representative of the Palestinian people is the PLO, and the list of claims of the PLO has remain unchanged since 1993: A state with borders that correspond to the lines of June 1967, East Jerusalem as the capital, and some arrangement that "solves" the refugee problem. Indeed, the Palestinians have been a model of consistency with their list of demands compared to the recognized representative of the Israeli people i.e. "the government of Israel".
"The one and only recognized representative of the Palestinian people is the PLO," Never heard of Hamas?
It's very informative. The Jewish People's Council, was NOT a political party. States are formed FIRST, then political parties are elected. States are not Governments. Governments are regimes within a state. The state does not change (except by LEGALLY annexing territories to them (bilaterally) or having territories annexed from them (bilaterally), Governments change according to which political party is in power. Your ability to spout in ignorance is amazing.
So Johnboy if all the PLO wants is "A state with borders that correspond to the lines of June 1967, East Jerusalem as the capital, and some arrangement that "solves" the refugee problem" then why didnt Arafat accept Ehud Barak's offer at camp david? Why didnt Abbas accept Ehud Olmert's offer at Taba? In each of those offers a Palestinian state with over 96% of the West Bank and Gaza and land swaps (there will never be 2 states on the exact borders of 1967, get over it, and really Israel should not have to abide by the 1967 borders becuase they WON a DEFENSIVE war), a capital in East Jerusalem, and billions of dollars for the refugees (The Palestinian "refugees" will never be allowed to come back into Israel because then there wouldnt be a Jewish state, get over it)
The PLO is the *only* Palestinian organization that has the authority to sign a final status treaty with "the Government of Israel" e.g. Bibi can not sign any treaty as "leader of Likud", he can only sign as "PM of Israel". Abbas can not sign any treaty as "leader of Fatah", but he can as "Chairman of the PLO". Hamas are as much out of the picture as Kadima is. Are you really that clueless, SDHD?
The ONLY Palestinian organization that is recognized as being able to sign a peace agreement is... the "Palestine Liberation Organization". The ONLY Israeli organization that is recognized as being able to sign a peace agreement is... the "Government Of Israel". That SDHD shouts "whaddabout Hamas?" is about as useful as me shouting "whaddabout Kadima?"
Hamas have also said they would be willing to accept a Palestine within the 1967 borders. It's on record.
Hamas have also said they would be willing to accept a Palestine within the 1967 borders. It's on record.
The only organization that can sign a peace treaty in the name of The People Of Israel is.... "the Government of Israel". Not Likud. Not Shas. Not Kadima. The only organization that can sign a peace treaty in the name of The People Of Palestine is...."the PLO". Not Fatah. Not Hamas. Not Islamic Jihad. For SDHD to jump up and down like a demented monkey asking if I've heard of Hamas is about as sensible as me shouting back "what about Kadima!!!!!!"
Namely a cease fire, without end of conflict. If israel abandons the West Bank it will become a Hammas stronghld=an Iranian stronghold= war. Israel is right to stand for security and that is achieved by controlling part of the west bank. This has nothing to do with settlements. Most of the later should be removed, but Israel control of the West Bank will remain.
I think the point of bringing up Hamas is not because they sign or do not, but because they, as the elected government of and a major party in the Palestinian territories, will have to abide by any agreement and therefore can play spoilers to any peace accord. You can play literal word games all you want but Israel was willing to sign something that seemed to meet the definition of what the Palestinian's want and they walked away from the table and started an intifada instead.
"When direct talks become a goal, without anyone having a clue what Israel's position is". That is absolutely true. What *DOES* Netanyahu want? What *IS* the Israeli position? Nobody knows. And, apparently, nobody cares. All Netanyahu wants is talks, but he has given no clue where he wants those talks to go. That can only mean that he doesn't want them to go anywhere i.e. they are a smokescreen, nothing more, behind which he will build, and build, and then build some more.....
What " DOES" Netanyahu want? Easy for you to advocate as to what Netanyau wants is just TALKS? Of course otherwise how does one decide how to progress without talks which requires deep ans soul serching thinking. What you desire is not attainable whihin the parameters at present. And if Bibi decides to build than he is continuing in the RIGHT PATH like it or not...................
Ross- If Bibi decides to build, it the Wrong path and not the right path! Building, means more land grab by the Israelis and more stolen Palestinian lands. Don't bother to repond because your ignorance shines!
Every Israeli leader has had the same gun at their head. Rabin was foolish enough to attempt peace....
.. yeah maybe for you Ross but the world doesn't care. You can keep telling your grand old history to yourself.
It is indisputably true that the Pals have set out their list of claims, and so EVERYONE knows what they want out of negotiations. Obama can't even get Bibi to show him a MAP, let alone a full list of the Israeli claims. What Netanyahu "wants" is this: he wants to walk into the negotiating tent, sit down, put on that infuriating smirk, and then ask Abbas: "well, what did you want to talk to me about?". A. F.a.r.c.e.
but we do know what israel wants: The West Bank, and the Palestinians to leave. Duh!
He mouths platitudes, and he says he wants "direct talks", but (unlike Abbas) he will NOT say what he wants out of those talks. And that's because he doesn't want ANYTHING to come from those talks; he simply wants to talk about talking about talks, because those talks give him a smokescreen to keep stealing land.
The country is called Israel not Islamistan. Right on Bibi wanting to talk and talk,keping "mum" on delicate matters. Did you expect to him tyo give CARTE BLANCH to Abass ? So somescreens are good in any political situation.Particularely when dealing with tricky Arabs
Land is israel's and they can build anywhere.hey ae not going to build in a so-called Pal,state [not as yet accomplished] and looong in coming to fruition. So take it from there accept it or not IT IS ALL JEWISH LAND.Conversely think who came first..........chicken or egg.....
The relationship per se had to be saved, even if not tackling the (logest) peace-process (in history) right at this juncture. This was not about the peace-process, not even about Iran, as it was about repairing the perception of an Israeli-USA rift. The rift itself was making Iran, Syria, Hezballah and Turkey salivate. And many posters here at Haaretz too. So be a little bit patient, Mr. Levy. This time it wasn't for peace's sake, but for PR's sake. And it was desired by both parties.
And I sincerely hope that you're right. Have a good day
CORRECT.....................
this, "The reality is that Israel has again managed to fool not only America, but even its most promising president in years. " Israel is not fooling us but has shown exactly how servile and compliant our government is to the power of the "Lobby". Simple math really, Israel (and Lobby) + US election cycle = US Policy
Most promising president?where,how so Rick? He has done nothing worthy so far,barring his false prouncements,promising the impossible,achieving zilch so far.Rhetorical mumbo ,jumbo by him at all times.I wouldn't call him "the most promising for sure" Rick ole chap. Nevermind Israel or (the Lobby) think more of his posion he is tryin desperatly for the upcoming elections in November. Get it?