Akiva Eldar / What would Netanyahu do without Peres?

If you read post 35, you now know what I think the Palestinian opening position should resemble, adding to it recognition of Palestine as the NON-Jewish State (which has as much meaning as Jewish State, whatever that means). And you can toss in right of return to the 7th generation. Is that extreme enough for you all? Or should we also add in turning over Captain R for trial by a Palestinian court, for murder, not just taking the safety off when he shot Iman al Hams? Is that a good opening bargaining position? Either Netanyahu wants peace or he wants piece and gets one state by default.

on facts? On history? written by sympathetic zionists?

the legacy they'll leave but I don't agree that he became more allied to the right-wing politicians in Israel. Peres agreed with Ariel Sharon's centrist approach in dealing with the Israeli foreign policy because the Israeli population was supportive of the right, especially with the terror campaign from the Palestinians. Anyways, the bottom-line is, I can't think of any era when the left-leaning parties had massive support after PM Menachem Begin's leadership with Likud. It's always been a divided nation politically to the right and the centre-left (Labour). But the Russian immigrants polarized the country to the right more so - especially foreign policy. President Shimon Peres adapts to whatever leadership Israelis elect and he cannot singlehandedly effect major changes - only advocate. But nobody else in the political establishment has the same clout, respect and background as a founding member of Israel's independence.

The whole debate is over. It has been made absolutely clear Israel will never allow a Palestinian state. Arguing over whether or not there should be a Palestinian states is total waste. Nor is there any point in arguing over peace negotiations as they have been rejected by Israel. Mr. Peres will die without Israel ever having a day of peace. Mr. Netanyahu has seen to that. What will Netanyahu do without Peres? Chortle with joy.

"But then I`m an American and would expect that I negotiate from the position of an American with the full power of the USA behind my positions." - Mark of Lewiston If you were the President you would have to think about reelection. If you were a republican strong arming Israel would bring the wrath of the religious right down on you and you would be defeated. If you were a democrat pressing Israel would alienate the Jewish block and you would lose.

Become a responsible voice for the People of Israel, maybe? I don't wish Eldar a pox upon his house - but a rocket, maybe. Then we'll listen to the tune he sings.

....just in case, bottomline was: I believe that Peres was sincere during the 90's with his intentions for peace (Hamas played a very miserable role there too). However, over the past few years, his legacy became the most important to him, and he knew exactly, that because of Oslo, he was despised by the right and big parts of the mainstream in Israel. And that's why he decided to make "nice, nice" with the right-wingers and their policies, thereby ignoring the dangerous consequences for Israels future.

If the only ones in Israel with determination and tools are the violent, corrupt settlers then give them the army, make Avigdor PM, and lets get this over.

....for Shimon Peres, though I would wanna add, that he probably also became a "casualty of his age" over the past few years (Actually, he is a pretty good example for why I strongly believe that there should be an age-limit at let's say 80-82 for politicians or high representatives of a country). Look, I believe, that still in the 90's, Peres had honest intentions about the peace process, and one must not forget the miserable role that Hamas played during that time. But unfortunately over the past years, his legacy became more important to him than the good of the country. He knew exactly, that he was despised by the right and big parts of the mainstream in Israel for his role in the Oslo peace process, and the only chance to win back their respect, was to cosy up to the right, no matter the conse- quences for Israels future. And that's what I see as his big failure, that he put his own legacy over the good for Israel....

....so I will slurp it like honey !! :)

Judging from your posts, you, Esther and zeev would make a wonderful Israeli team !!! And I could then finally start taking on the Palestinian side...:)

They are NOT preconditions to negotiations without which Israel will not negotiate. They ARE the negotiation opening gambit.

The D team writes as if nobody feels anything, everybody blind about the difference between critics and systematic bias. The D team does not stop for a moment to meditate about the strange coincidence: both "D" members never fail a test: "Is Israel Ok on this? Guess the D team answer?

Mark, since its quite evident you lack any knowledge of the two peoples ( Israelis and Palestinians) I will keep it simple for you. The way you bargain in that part of the world is to negotiate from the extreme. If you recall Ehud Olmer, Sharon all had those same slogans and all would be willing to reverse many. The refugee issue is a non issue however the rest can and will be negotiated. Basically Mark your assessment is wrong wrong and wrong.

Israel uses negotiations to continue the illeagal Settlement expansion. The Paklestinians have finally figured that out so they might as well not waste their time. Better to wait for the Bi National State and put Israeli Jews in the lower seat and show them they are willing to negotiate until the cows come home. As said before psm--Israel has never/does not and never wuill be interested in peace. You know that---why do you not just admit it???. Here is some interesting feedback about one of Israel,s demands--recognition of a Jewish State. Enjoy "In 1919 the General Secretary (and future President) of the Zionist Organization, Nahum Sokolow, published a History of Zionism (1600-1918). He also represented the Zionist Organization at the Paris Peace Conference. He explained: The object of Zionism is to establish for the Jewish people a home in Palestine secured by public law." ... ...It has been said and is still being obstinately repeated by anti-Zionists again and again, that Zionism aims at the creation of an independent "Jewish State" But this is wholly fallacious. The "Jewish State" was never part of the Zionist programme. The Jewish State was the title of Herzl's first pamphlet, which had the supreme merit of forcing people to think. This pamphlet was followed by the first Zionist Congress, which accepted the Basle programme - the only programme in existence.[53]

The way he states them, all are preconditions and nonnegotiable. I may think he's full of it, but I haven't been asked to the table. I'd come with a previously published map and ignore all his preconditions as pure bluster. And I'd demand a return to the lines accepted by Israel before the war of independence. and be asking for UN and NATO troops to act as my buffer and guarantee the security of my borders against incursions and infiltration. I'd probably demand one soldier at every Israeli point of entry that Israel wants at every Palestinian point of entry and include the right to regulate immigration into Israel since they want to regulate Palestinian immigration. But then I'm an American and would expect that I negotiate from the position of an American with the full power of the USA behind my positions.

... he is sanctioning and abetting a controversial political stance... often well beyond what is considered 'ceremonial'... ... in fact it may be precisely this attitude of Peres that caused the discourteous Erdogan loose his cool on that infamous occasion...

Hi Swiss, Numerous times on this Talkback I've been critical of Shimon Peres or I've not commented on issues he's spoken about. With regards to the settlements policy issue, you only see the enormous difficulties encountered with actually implementing anything the supposed left in Israeli politics advocated for decades. How can an Israeli politician or even a few politicians have a significant impact? There had to be greater consensus amongst the Israeli establishment and people in general regarding this core issue. Let's put it this way, Shimon Peres has been the political casuality in Israel because of his stance towards making peace with Israel's adversaries.

Repeat precondition to negotiations,you negotiate youwin some you lose some,if you refuse to negotiate you win none. Coalition walks? not with a coalition with Labor and Kadimah which was the point of my post it can be done with hard horse trading which Netanyahu has openly been working on while your side rejects any coalition it is now Gaza and Hamastan.

quite nicely

Peres has been playing dirty games for a long time. He gave a veneer of legitimacy to Sharon. He is doing the same thing with Natenyahu. These leaders, if one can call them that, were and are too crude to present themselves to the world. So along comes Peres to stand in their stead. He becomes the mouthpiece of civility, decency, compassion, etc. The truth, however, is that he is a nothing!

He was member of a gang of terrorist together with other prominent zionists politicians!

It's nearly 2:00AM, I won't list them all. But just a starting few: No borders based on lines that predate 67 war. No sovereignty. No independence, troops must remain permanently. No Right of return No Compensation to those displaced. Israel must control entry and Exit. Israel must control customs. No discussion of Jerusalem. Maale Adumin is part of Israel. The West Bank must stay divided. Israeli troops on Jordan border in perpetuity. Israeli control of Philadelphi corridor in perpetuity. That's one dozen for a start. If he even discusses these, half the coalition walks.

"Israelis like Avi Primor, Yossi Sarid or Amos Oz aren`t as "super-dovish", but they are human beings with integrity, character and backbone." Which is why they aren't President. Well, Avi Primor might just stand a chance one day but the others certainly won't, at least not in this climate.

As Israeli President, Peres is not in a position to be anything but a fig-leaf. That's what Israel's Presidency is: an honorary post with no political clout. Time was when we had presidents from the scientific and intellectual spheres, but they are long gone (to the great regret of some of us). Peres was a shrewd, most claim wily, career politician. He now carries out the tasks of a totally ceremonial President. It's Netanyahu and his coalition who have the power. It is they who need to be held to account. If President Obama mistook Peres's mandate as being similar to his own, he didn't do his homework. If you think Peres would still be President after doing what you want him to do, you are mistaken.

its hard to achieve and requires heavy horse trading but achievable, unlike the elected govt of Palestine peace is the desired end goal of the majority parties. Please list the "30-50 " preconditions to negotiations instead of cheap innuendo when,Pals refuse to negotiate while Israel will. Negotiations mean both sides give and take,not to Pals liking obviously,better to let somebody else do it. You dont like the spotlight turned around do you.It does not fit the innocent peace loving Pals can do no wrong image that their fellow travellers work so hard to try to create.

....and one doesn't have to be as "super-dovish" as Uri Avnery in order to have it. Israelis like Avi Primor, Yossi Sarid or Amos Oz aren't as "super-dovish", but they are human beings with integrity, character and backbone...

The Road Map is a plan, not a decree of the UN security council, which is the only body authorized by its constituents to unilaterally obligate those same member countries. Thus, even if Israel had announced that it agreed with every jot and tittle (or yud and keter, if you're from the Hebrew Lang. Academy) of the Road Map, it would still not have been obligated by int'l law. That Israel appended its acceptance with numerous reservations, including regarding settlements, merely underscores the ridiculousness of Eldar's implied accusation. This is no small point. It took Peres a decade and a half and thousands of rockets from Judenrein Gaza to admit that the Palestinian commitment to destroying Israel demographically (and the consequent Pal. intransigence on the refugee issue) is solely at fault for the lack of peace, and not Israel exercising its rights or defending itself. If a Peres can wake up to the sad truth, so can an Eldar. A little intellectual honesty is all that's needed.

... altho' Uri at least preserves his integrity...

He was member of a gang of terrorist together with other prominent zionists politicians!

....like you feels the need to defend a man, who said all the right words over the past decade, but did nothing to back them up by his actions, on the contrary, who silently supported and tolerated settlement expansion, and who viciously attacked judge Goldstone over his report on Gaza just a few weeks ago, then my dear Smadar, one must not be surprised, if right-wing Israel and its devoted servants like Shimon Peres feel, that they can do what- ever they like doing. Because they will never be critically challen- ged by their fellow Jews in the Diaspora, not even the more liberal ones.....

....not serve as a fig-leaf for right-wing Israels policies, and defend them wherever he is abroad. There is indeed a "decent old man" in Israel, and his name is Uri Avnery, but he couldn't be anymore different from Shimon Peres with regard to his character....

... those who have known Peres the politician over many years are familiar with his way of getting-things-done, not necessarily heeding all the rules of integrity...

Can Netanyahu deliver without all his 1-2 dozen preconditions? Will Shas or Israel Beitunu or the more radical militant Jewish parties go long with even discussing Jerusalem or a 1:1 land swap with water? Why does Netanyahu always enumerate 30-50 preconditions when ever he says "no preconditions?"

He picked Netanyahu over Livni even though Livni won the technical majority. He changes colors so easy, flipping parties he joins like flipping pancakes. And everywhere he goes he preaches "peace", and pockets the money of the peace prize. He tells the world that Goldstone is petty. He preaches Abbas to accept the crumbs thrown at him. He blabbers nonsense to the Egyptians and anyone who cares to listen to his hallucinations. In the end he falls back on the mother of all contentions: the failure of the peace process rests squarely on the shoulders of the Palestinians for dreaming to have a state of their own, or rather for refusing to pick up the crumbs and run. And he is the President of Israel.

for any deal he makes.As Hamas re-iterated yet again this week. Hamas refuses the steps required for peace.

It is entirely possible that Peres was deluded into thinking Netanyahu was serious. Obama was deluded by Netanyahu too. Every time Netanyahu says come to the table with no preconditions, he goes and spells out about a dozen of his own preconditions. Maybe it's time for the US under Obama to pull a Bush. Cut off the PA until not only they come to the table, but until a treaty is ratified. Meanwhile, if there is to be governance in the territories, let the occupying power pay for it. Until a treaty is ratified and implementation is well underway.

Unbelievable. The criticism of this veteran Israeli politician, President Shimon Peres, never fails even when he's only suppose to hold this current symbolic position of the presidency - he continues to advocate tirelessly towards a peaceful resolution of the conflict to both the Israeli leadership and the Palestinian. Wow, aren't we sick and tired of hearing about the opportunist politician, the fig-leaf, etc. and give the man credit for having the ability to reach out to everyone within the Israeli community, as well as its adversaries. Perhaps he's done what's right compared to those who haven't followed a flexible path (and this includes switching parties) only to assist the inflexible leaderships to be guided towards making bold steps towards peace in the region. It's very difficult to please everyone in such a pluralistic society as in Israel, but Peres has dedicated his life to Israel's prosperity. President Abbas, be wise and listen to the old man!

A palestinian state is impossible without leftist control in Israel. However the israeli left cannot win and election and advance their agenda so long as Abbas plays footsie with Hamas and refuses to guarantee the security of Israel as a JEWISH state as part of any peace settlement. Therefore there can be no peace in our time, and no palestinian state in our time. Fortunately for Israel, Al Queda and Bin Laden continue to threaten the US with terror attacks unless Amereica supports palestinians, thereby continuing to reinforce the connection between Al Queda and the palestinians in the average american voter's mind. Even Obama finally figured this out. Time is NOT on the side of the palestinians.

Israeli Jews do not think in terms of right and wrong, good and evil, moral and immoral. They think in terms of what can be gotten away with. Peres is what passes for a liberal in Israel. He was the cheerleader of spin. The problem for Peres is that the days of effective Israeli spinning are over. That makes him the clown of spin. Everybody knows this but Peres doesn't seem to mind. If he doesn't fool anyone else, he can fool Israelis.

Once again let's find someone else who will excuse the Palestinians from stepping up to the plate. Even if all the things you allege about Peres are true (and I doubt it)the bottom line is that Peres is not the one to negotiate - it is the Palestinians who refuse. They only want negotiatins for show - with all the issues predetermined, but, of course, with no preconditions. We are all witnesses to once again the Palestinians missing an opportunity and passing the buck through the Akiva Eldar's of the world.

.....as a fig-leaf for right-wing Israels policies. A true decent man with character and backbone (like Uri Avnery) would not have done so. You bet on that.

Without Peres Netanyahu would have no decent old man to soften his actions. But the supporters of Netanyahu are likely to think he would be freed of a senile old fool that keeps talking about the greatest of evils, peace.

"Israel is content to accommodate their position." Is that because Israel has beome so dependent on the US cash cow? 3 billion and more a year?

Akiva Eldar and Gideon Levy should form their own coalition and run for Prime Minister and Foreign Minister. These two are the clear voice of reason, justice, and what Israel as a nation should be. They seem like the only ones who "get it" and, unlike the Three Stooges Moe, Larry, and Curly (Bibi, Barak, and Lieberman), they would bring respect back to Israel from the international community. Come on, Israelis, vote them in!

The Palestinians prefer the "Peace Process" whereby the foreign aid keeps flowing as opposed to an actual peace which would cause their cash cow to dry up. Peace offers them nothing that can make up for the loss of this foreign revenue which supports their elites. Israel is content to accommodate their position.

and then peres had nothing good to say about his longtime friend arafat and in fact went out of his way to slander him....hopefully peres is a one of a kind and he never calls me friend