A promised land of their own

"...as the main power behind Israel will soon fall into the lap of Pastor Hagee`s people and the 20 million Evangelical Christians behind that." - Sam the Sham In that unlikely event, it couldn't make matters any worse for Israel.

Jewish Americans have made great contibutions to civil rights in America. Ms. Cohen's sentiments represents those contributions. As a fellow American, I am very proud of her.

Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer's study that "there is a monolithic, pernicious "Israel lobby" representing American Jews," will soon be rendered irrelevant as the main power behind Israel will soon fall into the lap of Pastor Hagee's people and the 20 million Evangelical Christians behind that. I guess, in that case, Walt and Mearsheimer will then have to replace the word Jew with Evangelical Born Again Christian and here we will go again! Selah!

"Now, my turn. When hundreds of Tomahawk were falling down over Baghdad, US tanks, heavy altileries rain downed all over Iraq, and 50.000 innocents-unarmed-helpless Iraqis civiliant died in vains, what you called this. Self defences from Jihadists? What you called a war without a slice of provocation like Iraq war? Hipocrite!" I call it..., SAVING THE IRAQIS FROM THEMSELVES! We need to do the same with Syria, Iran and Venezuela! Selah!

Indigenous if before 1940? When I think indigenous, I think in terms of thousands of years! Yasser Arafat used the term Phillistine to describe himself. What a laugh! You'd really have to be stretching it to go back that far. Palestine was the name given to the area by the Romans after the last Jewish rebellion about 70 AD/CE. It was a pun intended to make it seem that the land went back to the Phillistines, an extinct people, even back then! Selah!

You've been sold a bill of goods. I could refer you to some Palestinian Arabs who could tell you the truth but I would protect their lives like nobody's business! They are with us now! In 1948, plenty of them were Egyptians and other nationalities but one morning they woke up and they were suddenly Palestinian and cannon fodder for the Arab League! No homeland ever since. Put in refugee camps by their own. Subject to curfew and regulation but denied citizenship. Jews bought that land from absentee landlords. Turkey owned it up till WWI and lots of others before that! Jews did what the Arabs would not. They absorbed their brethren when they escaped or were thrown out. Selah!

Terrorists attacked over New, London, and Madrid were wrong. Pure and simple. These attacks represented nobody except the perpetrators themselves. Now, my turn. When hundreds of Tomahawk were falling down over Baghdad, US tanks, heavy altileries rain downed all over Iraq, and 50.000 innocents-unarmed-helpless Iraqis civiliant died in vains, what you called this. Self defences from Jihadists? What you called a war without a slice of provocation like Iraq war? Hipocrite!

(1) I find it interesting that you say Palestinians are not indigenous; nearly all of them are descended from people who were in Palestine prior to 1940; nearly all Israeli Jews are descended from people who came to Palestine AFTER 1940. That to me is an indicator of who really is indigenous. (2) As to your document, would you cede sovereignty of land to every group that claims they own it because the religious books that they wrote say so?

There is no Israeli equivalent? Not even the settlers who beat up Palestinian kids and uproot Palestinian orchards?

The statement you referred to was about actions taken to prevent the killings. The world treated Jews just the same as all the other groups mentioned. To my knowledge no Jewish group demands special treatment for any of those groups because of their history; if Jews, why not them?

They were captured in performance of specific actions. Prisoners of war and domestic people who may or may not be subversive are separate categories.

And the fact that not one of them is Jewish is purely a coincidence.

The important thing is that you agree with the Politburo that the government has the right to throw people in detention camps for any or no reason, that they should have no recourse to law, and that people have no legal rights beyond what the government chooses to allow them. Everythng else, as the saying goes, is commentary.

You are either being disingenuous or really don't know what happened in 1948. The millions of human beings in diaspora around the world are PALESTINIANS whose fathers and forefathers were tilling the land, raising the children, tending the crops and animals, building homes and crops...THEN in 1948 the Europeans came and either massacred them or drove them into refugee camps in neighbouring countries. ISRAEL IS CONTRAVENING THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS BY NOT ALLOWING THESE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE TO GO HOME. Yes, they are indigenous to that land...UNLIKE THE RABID ZIONISTS FROM BROOKLYN WHO HAVE NO AFFINITY FOR THAT LAND. If you care to read Ilan Pappe, an Israeli academic, you will find it written in clear, consice language. I would suggest Edward Said's writings, but racist anti-Palestinians balk at even acknowledging Said's work. You can also read through sections of Masalha and see the words of those infamous racists Israel Zangwill, Theodore Hertzi, Joseph Weitz and Chaim Weizmann.

"Like the people of Vietnam, Muslims all over the world is simply defending their rights, defending their sacred places, there will no Sharia Law enforcing all around the world, there will no jihadists forcing non-muslim to convert into Islam. All of that accusation simply a bunch lies." What right have you to New York, London, Paris and Madrid? You're right about "no jihadists forcing non-muslims" because we'll either all be dead or Muslim like you! Selah!

Palestinians aren't indigenous! They're just Arabs, plain and simple. Borders were drawn up after WWI. The land belonged to the Ottoman Turks before then. The Palestinians were just invaders plain and simple just like everyone else who has fought for the fertile crescent over the past 10,000 years. If there is any racial purity of who is a real Palestinian, it would have to fall in the laps of the Iranian and Iraqi Jews. Why? #1 Because we have the record of their captivity. And...#2 Because of the proximity of the territory. The difference for Jews and Christians unlike the Muslims is we have a document that supports us as the Spiritual Heirs to that land. The Muslim document presupposes that the entire Earth belongs to them. As the Prophet himself is quoted as having said, "You will fight until there is no man that says" etc.! I guess that includes the American Redman and the Australian Aboriginal folks too! Welcome to the Caliphate! Selah!

"There are too many who find themselves so highly superior to other cultures than they cannot even see their own ugly reflection." Anthropology has gone over the top I presume. We don't need to supply nukes to people whose proclaimed intended purpose is to "wipe" us off the face of the Earth. We don't need to make it eeeeeven! Even if you think so. Selah!

Nuff said! Selah!

I see the vultures are out to attack a poster becuse he/she had the temerity to critisise Israel. ISREAL AND IT'S US SUPPORTERS ARE CONDMNED BECAUSE OF ISRAEL'S ACTIONS TOWARD THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE THEY OCCUPY, STEAL,LAND FROM AND KILL WITH IMPUNITY. JUST GET OVER THE POOR US BECUASE WE'RE JEWISH. ISRAELIS COULD BE HINDU, BUDDHIST, BROWN, GREEN, FROM TIMBUKTU...IT'S THIER WAR CRIMES AND HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES THAT ARE THE ISSUE...NO-ONE GIVE S A FIG WHAT RELIGION THEY ARE...SO GET OVER IT. Stop hiding behind the "stop picking on us because we are Jewish"; it's ridiculous. I don't see African Americans, the Irish, Native Americans using THEIR past suffering to excuse the inexcusable. AND IN ANY CASE, the ones who are victims in this time are the indignous people of Palestine. Try looking at things as human beings; it would give a whole new perspective...heck..look at things through the eyes of an occupied indigenous child who sees nothing but the IOF brutality and the occu

Your post says more about you than it says about Garber

It is true Amereican Judaism is changing and we will be losing numerous bloodlines. I assure you that 1. There will be more than "scattered Orthodox communities. 2. The voice of Orthodox Judaism is having its effect on various Conservative and Reform congregations around the country. Am Yisroel Chai.

In my opinion, whoever defending US and Israel expansionistic attitudes in Middle East by blaming Islam as a religion of intolerant, expansionistic, and encouraging terrorism are similar with this attitude: When US invaded Vietnam, they blamed communism as a expansionistic regime. Kissinger said, if US failed in South Vietnam, all of South East Asia will fall into the hand of communist regime. AFTER MORE THAN 30 YEARS SINCE VIETNAM WAR ENDED, NOTHING HAPPENED. Domino theory of Kissinger was no more than a lied. Like the people of Vietnam, Muslims all over the world is simply defending their rights, defending their sacred places, there will no Sharia Law enforcing all around the world, there will no jihadists forcing non-muslim to convert into Islam. All of that accusation simply a bunch lies.

However badly Israelis are alleged to behave, Palestinians always behave worse. Palestinians made the conscious and deliberate decision to go for "soft targets," in the belief that this would demoralize/weaken Israelis. Palestinians are going flat out, trying to kill infants and old people. There is no Israeli equivalent.

in you. Suddenly you went very emotional and vindictive and southern California arrogant on us. My wife and I are secular Jews. Our son is Orthodox and I believe he will have many children. If you lived in Brooklyn you would not fear for the future of American Jews. Jews have been, are and will be a diverse people and we will survive in the USA no matter what you think in lalaland. By the way, we live in the South, know many evangelicals and we RESPECTFULLY disagree with each other theologically. Bet they don't tell you that in the LA news media.

What if the Katrina response was the beginning of a downturn for the U.S.? I know that Americans are getting poorer. Could pogroms happen here?

You make statements. You give no evidence or examples. You are too lazy to be a real journalist.

What other culture right now practices child sacrifice? ▪ "I'm prepared to sacrifice my six children," said Mahmoud Sumara's mother, Halima. "I'm serious. I don't mind if I lose them if that brings back al-Aqsa..." ▪ "When I wander into Jerusalem I will become a suicide bomber." proclaims a young Palestinian, age 9. (Palestinian TV children's show, "The Children's Club") "I am happy that he [my 13-year-old son] has been martyred. I will sacrifice all my sons and daughters (12 in all) to Al-Aqsa and Jerusalem." (London Times) www.teachkidspeace.org/doc102.php

Get real!! Palestinian culture celebrates the murder of Israeli civilians. Why else are the murderers honored? Cultures that allow murderers to run free, instead of imprisoning them, do not honor sanctity of human life. Tell me, when was the last protest by the Palestinians against their suicide bombers?

"The world didn`t do anything about the killing of Ukrainians or Chechens or Gypsies or a number of other groups" Well the Ukraniains already lived in their own land, as do the Chechens. (The Gypsies should have gotten a better deal) What preferential treatment did the Jews receive? The Europeans didn't want thousands of Jewish refugees back in their countries. They were happy to dump them in Palestine. How is that preferential treatment? Once there they certainly had to defend themselves. Where would you have put them, on the moon?

"We do not have thousands of people held without charge at the pleasure of the government because they belong to the wrong religion." What about Gauntanamo Bay in Cuba and all the Muslims shipped off to toture in Afghanastan and other countries. Don't make me laugh.

"As to exaggerations, point out what I said that was not true." "We do not have thousands of people held without charge at the pleasure of the government because they belong to the wrong religion." Have you been to Guantanamo bay recently? Israel doesn't either. It has nothing to do with religion. If it did, more people would be held.

"I suspect you were not as comfortable when the KGB threw refuseniks into gulag without charges and left them there until they were ready to release them" They were citizens trying to leave the country, not militants shooting people. If Jews from Turkmenistan had been attacking Russians, then the KGB would have every right to hold them in Administrative detention, (or in their version of Guantanamo bay.) "If it is wrong to be done TO a Jew, it is wrong when done BY a Jew." Of course. That's axiomatic. I suspect 98% of Jews would agree with that, just as 98% of Christians and Muslims with respect to their groups. Each group of course has a percentage of loonies. You just need to compare "like" situations. You rarely do. You can't even distinguish between how people behave in war vs. peace. I suspect if you were still at war with Native Americans your laws and policies might be different. I'm happy you've solved your problems (after 200+ years).What does that have to do with

according to the zohar, we r to be a shining light unto thee nations, meaning we should set examples and rules for G-ds way of life or according to other a sacrifice.

Most of the children from assimilated families are being raised as Christians. If the spouse does not accept Christianity, the children are taught to do so. Several years ago, my wife and I were invited to our niece's house in Texas during the Christmas holidays. Christmas tree, of course, with plenty of presents under the Christmas tree. Chanukah menorah? None that we could see. Her husband seemed to get agitated when my wife and I spoke to each other in a language that he probably did not understand.. Idish. I doubt if I will ever be invited to return. That is not an isolated incident for American Jewish families.

THE FACT IS THAT JEWS DO NOT RECEIVE SPECIAL TREATMENT ABOVE ANY OTHER PEOPLE. JEWS ARE CALLED THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK FOR ONE GOOD REASON. WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH HELL AND BACK SO MANY TIMES AND SHRUG IT OFF BECAUSE THAT IS JUST THE WAY THE WORLD IS TO JEWS. SO RATHER THAN COMPLAIN WE SEEK TO BETTER OURSELVES AND IT SEEMS TO WORK. HARDLY EVER DO WE GET JUSTICE. BUT WE ARE THE CHOSEN PEOPLE ACCORDING TO THE TORAH AND THAT BOTHERS THE WORLD.

Hiding your head in the sand Marlene isn't going to make it go away. Neither of your buddies here are willing to step up for you either, although more and more it appears that they are just different Marlene's. Variations on a Khalid perhaps. He's stranded you do, as has "Aaron Levitt", maybe you'll bring back "carl" What would have happened to "occupied Israel" had the combined arab armies been successful when they attacked in '48? Let one or more of your personae get on the soapbox and let us hear.

So the mufti was not important for the Nazis? Is that why he was an equvalent of general in the SS, a commander of a Muslim SS division, and a personal pet of Hitler and Himmler? The insignificant contacts between the Nazis and the Zionists were nothing compared to the enthusiams of Arabs and European Muslims when they embraced the ultimate evil, and fought for it until the end.

but not in your case. If the enemies of grand mufti Al Huseini were "British and Jews", why did he join the SS, drafted thousands of muslims from Bosnia to create a Muslim SS division, and committed crimes against humanity in the former Yugoslavia? I mean atrocities beyond your imagination. There were no British or Jews there, gone by the time mufti arrived. This man was the ultimate evil, made from the same material as Hitler's. Better stay away from this subject, or you'll get smeared with s""t all over. We remember who fought side by side with us (Jews did) or on the dark side (Arabs did). And do not bring up that stupid argument about the enemy of your enemy... Indians did not like the British either... By the way, in case you did not know, the grand mufti was confirmed as of aryan origin by SS doctors.

European culture where the mass slaughter of millions upon millions took place? Western culture where the slaughter of millions of Native Americans took place and where Blacks were once slaves. Apartheid South Africa where so many Black Africans were killed and tortured. There is no certain culture that kills innocent civilians in cold blood because innocent civilians have been killed throughout history at everyone's hands. To even intimate that only certain cultures engage in such acts is highly discriminatory and basically shows why the world is in the condition it is...because there are too many who find themselves so highly superior to other cultures than they cannot even see their own ugly reflection.

Those who shot Rabin sold Israel's soul for the $

by British Protestants who were strong proponents of Judeo-Christian values and of the Enlightment. They were the creators of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution in the U.S. Everybody who followed them, regardless of the national origins, embraced their values. Now that the religious mix of all those countries is changing only time will tell if they will still remain "the Promised Land."

MARLENE, dont compare the holicoust the Jews experienced to what you claim the PAL. are suffering. I see no dogs patroling the camps. I see no doctors setting up exerimental labs. I see no ovens. WhatI see is other Arab nations in that area looking away. In fact Pal cannot buy land in Jordan. What I see is frustrated parents that produced chidren to kill Jews and SAddam isnt sending money. Dont even say the Pal. are having a holicoust. You sound stupid. Are you being paid by the Pal government to say what you do?

You are completely correct that there are vast inequities in how people are treated here. However, there is a difference - no group is formally designated as inferior before the law. We do not have thousands of people held without charge at the pleasure of the government because they belong to the wrong religion. As to exaggerations, point out what I said that was not true.

I suspect you were not as comfortable when the KGB threw refuseniks into gulag without charges and left them there until they were ready to release them. If it is wrong to be done TO a Jew, it is wrong when done BY a Jew.

"My goals are, as I said, "freedom, equality, and human rights." I value peace, as well, and these are the paths to achieve it" The "path" being flooding Israel with Palestinians via the mythical "right of return". You've already stated your support of "right of return", so no need to now be embarrassed by your support of this hostile position. How it is even possible to slander a people who name soccer teams after their honored terrorists who blow up restaurants and murder civilians? Does their media, their Imams, their leaders call murderous suicide bombers "heroes" and "martyrs" or do they not?

The Nazis in fact tended to ignore the Grand Mufti in the 1930s and supported Zionism. You might wish to read Klaus Polkehn, "The Secret Contacts: Zionism and Nazi Germany 1934-41," Journal of Palestine Studies, Spring 1976; and Ernst Marcus, "The German Foreing office and the Palesting Question in the Period 1933-39," Yad Vashem Studies Vol. II. As for the Eichmann trial, it was a political show trial, and the prosecution tried to stuff the maximum propaganda value into the prosecution. See Hannah Arendt, "Eichman in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil."

"We would be living in a much better world and a more humane society." True. But unforuntately, we live in a world where some cultures sanction cold-blooded murder of civilians.

(1) I don't hate Jews; I just believe Jews should be treated like everyone else, and don't have a right to preferential treatment because they are Jews. (2) The world didn't do anything about the killing of Ukrainians or Chechens or Gypsies or a number of other groups. Do you mean all of them deserve privileged treatment also? If not, why Jews? (3) Whether or not your group was mistreated, the same rules apply to you as apply to everyone else.

The Muslim Brotherhood was anti-English, and because the Germans were at war with England, they supported the Germans. A motive curiously similar to Yair Stern's when he made his formal application to become an ally of Germany. The 'Grand Mufti", who in my opinion was the single man most responsible for the Arab-Israeli violence of the last 86 years, had a more complex relationship with the Germans than you state. Yes, during the war, he was used for propaganda purposes by the Nazis, including photo ops with Hitler. He went to Germany after he was forced to flee Baghdad following the anti-British uprising during WWII. In the 1930s, the Nazis were actually pro-Zionists (one way to get rid of Germany's Jews and make trouble for England). When Eichmann visted Palestine it was not to meet with the Mufti, but rather to meet with Feivel Polkes, and after the Brits expelled Eichmann, Polkes went to meet with him in Cairo.

Note the loaded words: "No matter how sloppily the Walt-Mersheimer article was researched and written..." Sorry, but the article is soundly researched and well written. Garber shows his bias right from the start. Now, lets go to the distortions: "In truth, there is not one lobby on behalf of Israel, but many..." This is precisley the point Walt and Mersheimer make, but Garber ignores it to propagandize his views. Inconvenient facts jsut be ignored. And accompanied by intellectually dishonest drivel. But typical of his ilk and of the American conservative movement. Like supply-side economics and "Saddam had links to al Qaeda and 9/11." Lies, but necessary propaganda. Garber and the rest of his kind who find it necessary to misrepresent and twist Walt and Mershiemer merely prove their point. But at least he's not as bad as Dershowitz.

Irrespective of what Arafat had stashed away, he spent the last few years of his life with his people in pretty grim surroundings with barely any sunlight when he could have been living the good life somewhere else. He might even be alive today if he had. And do you really care that the vast majority of his people live in great poverty, or does it only become an issue when you speak about Arafat?

My goals are, as I said, "freedom, equality, and human rights." I value peace, as well, and these are the paths to achieve it. Instead you choose to slander people who have been terribly wronged, though they committed no crime. Were you so fond of the blood libel that you choose to make it your own?

No other Jewish community is as large and as affluent - and yet, it is very clear that merican Jewry is steadily disappearing. One cannot speak about a 'promised land'; after all, American Jews' ancestors succeeded in keeping and developing their Judaism for + 2,000 years - and their sons and grandchildren are losing it all in a period of no more than 4 ou 5 generations. Things like the abominable Chrismukkah are fashionable and widely accepted; intermarriage is no longer seen as a problem and comprises more than 50% of all marriages; most Jews do not care for Israel neither feel connected to it. USA Judaism probably will not last more than 30 ou 40 years before becoming a thing of the past, with scattered Orthodox clusters and masses of people who vaguely remembers their origin. It seems to me that American Judaism will become sooner or later one more of those 'Golden Age of Judaism' stories, like Spain or Netherlands. Frankly, you are not in position to give lessons about judaism.

...does the writer refer to if Israel continues to lag behind the contemporary universal values of Western democracies (where many Jews enjoy those values) and keeps on closing the gap with the Arab neighbors (see familiy reunification ban, Tal law, wide spread corruption, human rights violations,...).

If I'm just good enough, and every other Jew on the face of the earth is better, I'll be a happy man. It's not a competition, Rich.

The amazing thing is how few of the Palestinians I meet have internalized the lesson. Somehow, they have managed to keep themselves almost free of hate. Even hatred of Israelis. Oh, I've met exceptions; young men so filled with rage and despair that you can almost see it burning in them, but they really are exceptions. I admire this, but I don't really understand it. If our people's positions were reversed, I would be one of those raging young men; that's the simple truth. Whatever it was that let my people endure oppression without being ruined, the Palestinians have found it, as well. I only hope that their exile isn't so long, or so bitter. It's OK to talk about ideology and reality, but until you've spent some time in the occupied territories, you just don't know much about the reality. I don't mean this as an insult; it's just a fact of life. If you really care about either Jews, or Palestinians, the best thing you can do is go and see for yourself.

'Just imagine if these acts were perpetrated against Jews how American Jewish leaders from Abe Foxman to Eli Feizel (sp) would react.' I imagine they would react about like you do when the abuses are committed against Palestinians. Personally, I tend to be surprised by how many Jews oppose Israel's behavior or at least grow cooler in their support because of it. It speaks well of them as a group; I can think of several ethnicities who are a lot blinder and more fanatical in support of their national causes. This is not to say that I have the least intention of agreeing with Israel's supporters; for so long as they keep trying to robe their cause with the illusion of logic and justice I will keep pulling the robes off. However, I don't think Jews are especially bad -- quite the reverse. It's just that they've just gotten stuck with an untenable cause -- and generally, it's the worst among them that are the most vociferous in their support of this cause.

We would be living in a much better world and a more humane society. Thank you.

Marlene at the time,your post was only #2 visible. But still it is not for the Jews to enlighten people about the Roma Holocaust but they have dont probably more than anyone. Lindsey,re Khalid.I am not bothered by 80% of what he says.I find a lot of it to be true from a Palestinian perspective.I am much more bothered by what he doesnt say. Rich,I have no idea where you are coming from but some of those comments are quite off .What is NIF anyway. Besides, any negative comments about Smoked Salmon and Beigels pees me off.

The Grand Mufti met Hitler for a perfectly good reason: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Mufti'e enemies were the British and the Jews; Hitler's enemies included the British and the Jews. Hitler was not some sort of figure of devil-worship; he was a historical personage, and various people found their goals coinciding with his at various points. Are the Finns bad because they found their goals coinciding with Hitler's? One can't just take association with Hitler and turn it into some kind of reflexive condemnation. Hitler opposed smoking and was a vegetarian. I'm not going to take up smoking again just to prove my anti-Nazi credentials. So you can certainly condemn the Mufti in a lot ways -- but to think that you can somehow invalidate the cause he was associated with simply by showing that at some point the Mufti and Hitler shared some goals is erroneous. After all, the Arabs ranked pretty low in the Nazi racial scheme -- does that somehow validate their cause?

The fact is rich and white and poor and black are not equal before the law.If OJ simpson was apoor black crack dealer do you think he would have walked? I dont think so.As the Southern anti poverty centre about how much the state in Alamabam spends on defending the accused in capitol offense trials.The US is one of the most racialy and class riven societies on earth.The rich live well and the poor eat shit.Spare me your American bullshit.Israel is at war with an enemey who tried many time to exterminate it off the face of the map.You might think thats justified,and yes Israels greater israel policy was fucked up,but your screaching exagerations are the product of an imbalanced mind.Look at your country,it is awash in horrors from sea to shining sea.

Larry Garber is exposing himself. He writes an interesting piece, but misses the center by pointing to "ancient Jewish and contemporary universal values" as the remedy for bring Israel's people into unity. Old and new "values" cannot bring people together. It must be the bonding from understanding the Scripture--under the direction of the Spirit of G-d. Anything less is of human origin and succeptable to the very corruption Garber decries. "Contemporary" values, ideas, & practice is what got Israel into trouble in ages past. They were forbidden from taking up the practices of the nations around them. He would like us to consider the views of the ACLU/PAW/NOW/Sierra/AFJ? All hyper-liberal, anti-Jewish-at-the-core groups? C'mon, Garber. Fess up. The main thing is following Scripture. In reality, the missing link....

you must be a super super cool jew better than the rest of us ....your mummy must be sooo proud.

Often when we deal with an important subject, we end up missing the point. America is not a country. It is a Home for refugees. Refugees carry their lives with them, and jelouse of their identity. The relation between Jews and America is just like other ethnic group, Cuban or Irish. The statement in the editorial "The relation between America and Israel is complicated" is short sighted. The Irish influence is an example. They have a bigger AIPAC and wider lobby that extend to American Presidents. The economic revival in Irand in recent years is mostly American based. Those individual Americans who support Israel because of their belief in the Bible;a religious matter. "Jews influencing the US to act against its own interest" is a stupid and gross exaggeration to serve Jews &Israel enemies.America knows where is her interest. America 'The Promised Land' dangerous. There is one Promise and one Land. Larry Garber: missing pointS. Akram Zekaria

"they are equal before the law and we do not throw thousands of them in detention camps without charge or hope of legal redress (administrative detention)." We don't throw thousands of our CITIZENS in detention camps either; just enemy combatants.

"I have the deepest respect for Jews who demand that our own people respect the freedom, equality, and human rights of the Palestinians, " Except that is not what you are really interested in, are you Aaron? If you were interested in peace, you would encourage the Palestinians to accept their state and a peace treaty with Israel. Where would they now be if they had accepted their state 6 years ago? Instead, your goal is a one state solution that floods the state of Israel with millions of hostile Arabs. Those same Arabs who believe that blowing up malls and restaurants with Israeli children, ...Israeli civilians ... is virtuous. It would be immoral for Israel to let those who celebrate the deaths of their children, into Israel, and thus, closer to innocent Israelis.

I have a problem with racism and bigotry wherever and whenever they exist, which is, unfortunately, all of the world and much of the time. If there are recent "OFFICIAL" PA blood libels, then yes, I have a problem with the officials. As for the Palestinian people, that's another matter. Do you really believe that Palestinian children's idea of Jews is based on PA propaganda? It's not true; I've been there, and I have some idea what I'm talking about. These children have learned about Jews firsthand. Jews are the settlers who torment them, the border police who join in, the soldiers who facilitate (or worse). Jews are the government that sends the soldiers, the voters who elect the government, the American lobby that shields them all. The real lessons in hating Jews, we have taught them ourselves.

Ironic how only after the Abramoff and AIPAC scandals broke do we find an abundance of rhetoric claiming AIPAC is just a small insignificant lobby. AIPAC's website boldly boasts differently. The bottom line is that in the U.S. McCarthyite tactics are instantly and indiscriminantly employed by Jews whenever there is any criticism of Israel and her terrorist policies and crimes against humanity. Gentiles are accussed as being anti-semitic and those few brave Jews like Finkelstein or Leni Brenner are labeled as self-hating. No debate is allowed, which only goes to demonstrate the fascism that Zionism readily embraces.

DURRING THE HOLOCAUST, MOST OF THE WORLD JUST TURNED A BLIND EYE AND LET HITLER GET AWAY WITH THE MURDER OF 6,000,000 JEWS. AFTER THE WAR IN THE MAJORITY OF EASTERN EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES, THE FORMER COLLABORATORS BECAME THE OFFICIAL LEADERSHIP OF THERE COMMUNITIES. THE LITTLE BIT OF JUSTICE THAT JEWS ASK FOR IS MINOR ON THE SCALE OF THE OUTRIGHT CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY THAT THESE COMMUNITIES STAND FOR AND YOU JUST SHRUG IT OFF. DON'T PREACH MORALS TO ME. MOST OF MY FAMILY WAS MURDERED BY THOSE YOU TURN A BLIND EYE TO. REMEMBER JOSEZ TISO THE HEAD OF THE HLINKA SLOVAK PEOPLE'S PARTY, HE WAS ALSO A PREIST AND WAS HUNG AT NEUREMBERG FOR WAR CRIMES AND AFTER THIS THE SLOVAK COMMUNITY ASKED THE VATICAN TO BEATIFY HIM AS A SAINT. AND THE LIST GOES ON AND YOU COULD CARE LESS. DO I HEAR YOU LAUGHING WITH KHALID IN THE BACKGROUND?

You are the one who cant see beyond the issues with your inlaws.Secondly I support a two state solution and have since the early 80s ,does that make me a better person in your eyes?I dont have a high opinion of myself,the fact is most people are very locked into limited ways of thinking, ever read what Frued thought about it? Next I am Canadian not American,I fail to see what the problem with being a loyal Canadian citzen and a Jew who is naturally concerned with israel.I am sorry you have such trouble with your inlaws,but refering everything back to that makes discussion with you rather obtuse.

The 96% of West Bank and all of Gaza was offered by Ehud Barak at Camp David and Taba. For details and maps see the PBS documentary, pbs.org, not Israeli sympathizers, are they? Specifically, alll of East Jerusalem, half of the Old City, and surface rights for the Temple Mount were offered. Arabs refused, why? Right of return, the main sticking point and their tool of destroying Israel. Al Zawahiri is a Palestinian, there were a number of Palestinians affiliated with Al Qaeda caught in Iraq. Pals danced and distributed candy after 9/11, we will never forget that.

They are also out of Sinai in return for Peace. None of what you quote is the OFFICAL policy of Israel,disengagement is.It is based on the wish and the votes of the majority of Israelis. How does that fit ?? Hamas is your votes. Hamas charter is YOUR OFFICIAL and reiterated policy and obviously your prayer book.!

As it happens, my ancestors also came her in the 1600s (Catholics to Maryland, Quakers to New York). What possible difference does that make? Why bring it up? As to the points you raised, I would be interested in your explaining why the massacres of Armenians or Ukrainians or Gypsies or Chechens or Hutu or ..... were any different (except that my toothache hurts more than your cancer because it hurts me.

The Jewish community in Kerala was never very big, and yes they were well treated. Although not throughout history, there were bumps along the road when the europeans showed up, but that is neither here nor there. You say some Kerala jews migrated to Israel, it's more like almost all of them, due to changing conditions and economic hardship. Unlike Mark Lincoln's friends, they didn't find life too difficult in Israel and stayed there, none returned to Kerala. I don't see what this has to do with my comment to Debra though, anti-semitism is alive and well in the USA, just look at the Alabama Democrats. She or her off-spring will be rounded up at some point in time, no matter her convictions, she's still a damned jew.

the indigenous population? Excerpt from "Covert War" re: Native American Movement: "...theirs is a struggle for the land. In essence, their positions imply nothing less than the literal dismantlement of the modern American empire from the inside out. The stakes involved are tremendous. The "Great Sioux" of Lakota Nation alone holds clear treaty rights over some 5% of the area within the present 48 contiguous states. The Anishinabe (Chippewa) are entitled to at least another 4%. The Dine (Navajo) already hold between 3% and 4%. Most of California has been demonstrated to have been taken illegally from nations such as the Pomo and Luisano. Peoples such as the Wampanoag, Narragansett, and Pasamadoquoddi-long believed to have been exterminated-have suddenly rematerialized to press treaty-based and aboriginal claims to much of New England. The list is well over 300 names long. It affects every quarter of the contemporary United States." http://www.sisis.nativeweb.org/sov/covert.html

(1) The USA did not turn our back on Jews during WWII; it was our national policy to restrict immigration. Would you have us dismiss that and allow ALL refugees to enter? If not all refugees, why just Jews? (2) All US citizens are by law equal regardless of racial, religious, or any such condition. Anyone proving discrimination against automatically wins the legal case. We have had problems with that in the past (Japanese during WWII is an example), but we apologized for that and paid compensation. (3) Although we still have problems in our society with some groups (Blacks, Indians), they are equal before the law and we do not throw thousands of them in detention camps without charge or hope of legal redress (administrative detention). I do not question that Jews have been cruelly mistreated in the past. However, that does not give them the right to turn around and designate anyone else for inferior treatment. If it is wrong when done TO a Jew, it is wrong BY a Jew.

" You can be either fish or fowl. American or Israeli, but not both both." Really Dad? Is it ok with you if people identify as African American, Italian American, Asian American, Polish American Arab American, Latino American, Irish American? Did you consider accounting for Israelis with dual American citizenship or Americans with dual Israeli citizenship when you issued your American first, fish or fowl ultimatum? Can people with dual US/Isr. citizenship identify as Israeli Americans Dad? Can Americans living in Israel identify as American Israelis? Aren't the only people who actually identify as Israeli Americans those holding dual citizenship in Israel and the US, and those who spent much of their lives in both Israel and the US, Dad? If your American inlaws weren't born in and didn't spend a substantial part of their lives living in Israel is it really they who identify as Israeli-Americans, or is it you who places them in this category which you have decided is illegitimate?

Talk about hypocracy, you continue to duck away for weeks on end and have no shame. Two questions and no answers. Had the combined arab armies won when they attacked Israel in '48, what would have happened to occupied Israel? The PLO stated in art.24 of the PLO charter that they have no sovreignty over Gaza and the West Bank, how is that in the new narrative post-'67 this is now called occupied land.? On and on you go about other things, how about some answers to this, it's been what, about a month already? certainly you've had time to research an answer by now. There is much more waiting to be asked. Nu?

hi mimi israel = me name, hebrew = me language, judaism = me religion, jewish calendar = me so we are where we should be, they are the colonialist land thieves

the differnce between a jew and Hebrew is this. A JEW IS SOMEONE WHO PRAYS TORAH AND GOES TO TEMPLE AND EVEN A GENTILE CAN BE CONVERTED TO JUDAISM, BUT NOT LIVE IN PHYSICAL ISRAEL. A HEBREW IS SOMEONE FROM THE SEMETIC TRIBES OF ISRAEL AND SPEAKS THE LANGUAGE OF ABRAHAM GIVEN BY ELOHIM ADONAI.

Of course it is hypocrisy, but that is one of the privileges one gets when one becomes a Designated Victim. The idea is that it is a crime for gentiles to discriminate against Jews, but a national right for Jews to discriminate against gentiles.

Charter of occupying the entire Middle East and ensalving millions of non-Jews. Remember, Hamas has one anachronistic charter. But you have a prosperous national Jewihs Front, and you have a Herut charter, and you have a Gush Emunim charter, and you have a Kach charter, and you have Merkaz harav and you have 60% of Israelis calling for the expulsion of non-Jews from Israel. In truth, Hamas charter is a prayer book when compared with your evils.

Do you have a problem with demonising Jews(not Israelis)on the OFFICIAL PA media or talking about them as subhuman and the final fate of the JEWS. Do you have a problem with "Jews drink blood for their rituals"? I do not remember any objections from you here. How do you deal when people are brought up on that type of stuff and the glories of child hood martydom? Seperation is realistic. The alternative would be nice maybe in several generations to come. Read some Khalids posts on his views on ethnic cleansing of Jews and the oft re-iterated Hamas charter by Hamas. Please do not skirt reality for ideology.

Sam. A little too fast there. Would you like to give me the details of the ?generous offer? of 96% that Arafat refused in Oslo? We often hear this but the details, plese. The truth is in the details. Secondly, would you like to explain your slanderous accusation that Palestinians "like Hyman Al Zawahiri who ? slaughtered 3000 American civilians on 9/11?? To save you the research on that one, let me supply a line from Henry Siegman in his article in The New York Review of Books April 27, 2006 http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18939?email regarding the call of ?Ayman al-Zawahiri, al-Qaeda's second in command, to Hamas to continue a violent jihad to recover every last ?grain of soil from Palestine which was a Muslim land that was occupied by infidels,? a Hamas official pointedly stated that "Hamas believes that Islam is completely different [from] the ideology of Mr. al-Zawahiri.? There were NO PALESTINIANS involved in 9/11 and you know it ... If there had been, we would have heard about it before you invented it.

there have always been jews willing to deny they are jews, believing that they can escape the fate of their brethren through some logical argument...how is it possible that people can still believe this? YOU don't decide if you're a jew. remember Goring? 'I'll decide who is a jew.' you can escape being a jew, according to the nazis if your family shows conversion records going back far enough but how far is far enough...depends...somedays one thing, some days another...you are viewed as a jew if there is a drop of jewish blood in you...you can't escape...they won't let you...they will decide you are a jew...so don't disgrace yourself and your fellows, don't pretend...be a jew. to be an american is the greatest joy on earth, but no illusions...assimilation here mirrors germany 1930s...jews who believe they can identify as americans and not jews will die just as quickly but in total disgrace...be a jew. be an american. just don't kid yourself. you will die as a jew. like it or not.

as hateful and bigoted an author as anything that can be found in the darkest corners of the world wide web. ive said this before, its a pity you are wasting your life like this.

I couldn't have said it better. Actually, I couldn't have said it as well! :)

was this Rabbi Hillel? If im not for myself, who will be for me? if im only for myself, what am I? if not now, when?

I'm sorry Ronnie. Khalid is a bigot. Even if there is a grain of truth in something he says, the rest of his garbage is just totally overwhelming, including in his post here. Its disappointing to see you say that he's absolutely right about anything. I think you are trying too hard to be a bridge.

but the website you left is the same garbage that white supremacists and neo-Nazis put out on their websites, except they're devoted to Jews. Two different faces on the same coin.

I have spoken with many Palestinians (activists and otherwise), and read essays by other Arabs from (English language) Jordanian and Egyptian newspapers, decrying the lack of democracy, human rights, etc. in the Arab countries. These people's response to injustice is not to excuse other nations' offenses; instead, they demand better of their own, as well. That's not hypocrisy, it's integrity. I have the deepest respect for Jews who demand that our own people respect the freedom, equality, and human rights of the Palestinians, and also do what they can to promote these same rights for the citizens of Arab countries. In my experience, unfortunately, most Jews who criticize conditions in the Arab countries couldn't care less; in fact, they're happy to have suffering and injustice elsewhere that can be used to deflect attention away from Israel's offenses. People like these bring shame upon themselves and all of us, and for them, I have no respect whatsoever.

IN THE PAST, I WORKED WITH JOHN LOFTUS ON TRACKING DOWN NAZIS. ACCORDING TO LOFTUS, THERE WAS WIDESPREAD ARAB SUPPORT FOR HITLER AND THE GRAND MUFTI OF JERUSALEM MET WITH HITLER. ALSO, THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD WAS PRO NAZI AND IT IS THE SAME MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD THAT HAS TWO OTHER BRANCHES; THE AL QUITA AND HAMAS. DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS REALITY?

...it's rather outrageous that you, as a convert to Judiaism, suddenly have more rights than any non-Jew living in the Israeli state, and more rights than any Palestinian refugee who cannot return because he or she is not a Jew, and you totally accept this concept while condemning what the Nazis did to the Jews which was all founded on racism and bigotry which leaves you in no position to call someone else ignorant. This is hypocrisy at it's best.

Which you yourself have posted here. So your real complaint is you can't get away with it.

Read the following: ISM-Canada believes strongly that there are important links and analogies between the anti-colonial struggles in Palestine and First Nations experience inside Canada. We are committed to doing international solidarity work in both places, and believe that the ethical imperatives in each case are similar. We feel that it would be hypocritical to advocate self-determination for Palestinians, and to resist the occupation and dispossession which shapes daily life in Palestine, without simultaneously acknowledging that we ourselves live on stolen land, without acknowledging that the colonial process and genocide within Canada continues to this day, and without engaging in solidarity work with First Nations peoples across the land. http://ismcanada.org/en/solidarity.shtml Tell us more about how Canada is a "true" promised land. Have you ever read MacDonald Stainsby (sp?)? I recommend that you read his writings - they might snap you out of your state of denial.

ref Iraq...the fascist was Saddam. unfortunately most Jews were actively lobbying against the war... what relevance is Wolfovitz, Perle's religion anyway ... have you analysed the religions of others who were pro the iraq invasion.... the US did the right thing, the world stinks and the best thing US can do is not listen to wimpy europeans

I had a number of friends who decided they wanted to try emigrating to Israel. With only one exception, they were back soon. This, I will admit, was decades ago. The reason they returned was always the same. Life was a lot harder in Israel than America.

Why draw attention to the Mein Kampf of the Arabs and away from the fact that Israel is disengaging. They repeated their plans for no peace/no recognition on Thursday sorry you missed it. Hamas is responsible for what Hamas says and does and they are the Government of Palestine no matter how hard you try to blame shift.

again you talk tosh....NIF is like bubba on a sunday eating smoked salmon bagels with cream cheese. Lovely, harmless...tell her what she wants to hear so she goes home happy and content with her little world. You dont want to tell bubba about anal things now would you ? NIF is a group of self righteous pontificating upper middle class Jews eating smoked salmon bagels.

I agree with you about the Hungarian soldiers fate. But I guess you don't see Debra's point as a citizen of USA she will be protected by her country, which is a great democarcy - though a clown for a President at present. The fear raised by you that, what befell the Hungarian soldier might happen again, seems a bit far fetched. There were many countries from which the Jews never had to flee, nor were they harmed in anyway. The Kerala Jewish community in India for example was controlling more than 80% of the spice trade, they were economically much better of than others but were never touched.(You would agree that economic well being was also a reason of Jews being targeted in many countries before WWII). Some Keralite Jews later migrated to Israel, due to fear psychosis which was very similiar to what you have posted to Debra.The Jews in Kerala lived along with Muslims/Christians/Hindus but werent harmed in any way, as the country where the lived was strong enough to protect them

Well, nobody is expecting US Jewry to stop supporting Israel's right to exist. However, Most American Jews know quite well that Israel routinely indulges in manifestly immoral and unethical behavior against the Paelstinian people. They Know that Israel murders innocent people. They know that Israel systematically and institutionally enforces brashly racist laws against non-Jews. And, not the least, they know that Jewish settlers routinely indulge in acts of thuggery and brigandage and murder. And they rarely spake up against these abominations. Just imagine if these acts were perpetrated against Jews how American Jewish leaders from Abe Foxman to Eli Feizel (sp) would react.

He lived in Budapest in the town centre. He was Hungarian through and through, like Debra, a hungarian of jewish descent. He sat proudly in his front yard with all of his medals, an elderly man, the most decorated soldier in the hungarian army. I'm sure you all see where this is going. He wouldn't budge when friends told him to leave, that they were rounding up jews, his reply being I'm not a jew, I'm Hungarian, and proudly pointed to the rows of medals on his chest. He was rounded up of course and killed. The highest percentage of jews killed by the nazis was in Hungary. The community refused to believe that they'd be included in the Final Solution, they were totally assimilated. Debra, if you really are Debra, when the roundup starts, you're just another damned jew. When they round up the damned jews, you will be in that round up, and you will die. It's always been that way and it always will be that way. The existance and strength of Israel may prevent it.

I agree with you about the demonization of the Palistinians & also the sub-human condition of Jews before the WWII. The way forward, for the Pals is not to answer the demonization by equally demonic acts. They need to go for a resistence change. I guess there purpose will be better served by Civil-disobedience & non-violent agitation. It is a potent tool, the world opinion mostly favours the oppressed - for eg. S.Africa black movement / Abolition of Slavery in USA / Tibetan Cause / Gandhis fight against British imperialism & many more instance point out to the wrong political line adopted by the Arab / plestinian leaders.

Why the "American of Jewish descent" remark? I understand your feeling of disconnection from the Jewish community--I'm a Jew that feels disconnected myself, but I don't deny that I am a Jew. Fifth, if you are a Jew by the definition of halakh, then you're a Jew, period. You make every effort here to distance yourself from the community and say Rossner need not worry about you. Still, you're on this board...and this is not the first time I've seen you here. We American Jews need to stop playing games with our identification. Either we're Jews or not, and we care or not; we can't have it both ways.

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/

Good words & well articulated. What you raise is valid point - universally. Let me put it this way WWII was a universal tragedy, and no one should monopolise the dead/losses or the vistories. When we say that a Jew died in the holocaust we have already sub divided the human race!!! As such it does remain a human feeling but a sub-human feeling. Universality of human-kind is more important than any other fragmentation of the human race -wether it is religious, ethnic, national, colour or what have you. I guess the only way forward, is to perhaps rise above these ideas which has boxed us into ever shrinking compartments. Thank you Debra, yours was a very sane post I must admit.

Ronnie, try re-reading my post. I never said that Jews were responsible for the Roma Holocaust, and my two posts dealt basically with the Nazis, however, it is rather sad and appalling that their Holocaust is either never mentioned or when it is, it is usually criticized because it's represented as not being the same thing...meaning that Jews had an exclusivity to suffering under the Nazi regime which they did not. Does it not seem proper to you that all people who suffered virtually the same type of racist persecution under the Nazis be mentioned? I see that even you take exception to it.

The US is the PROMISORY land. The land that wiull deliver, preserve and protect the Jewish Homeland and the Jews. That is the reason, and the justification for the USA. : "God made me the messenger of the new heaven and the new earth of which he spoke in the apocalypse of St John after having spoken of it through the mouth of Isaiah; and he showed me the spot where to find it." (Excerpt from a letter written circa 1500 CE by the man who discovered America, Christopher Columbus, but they don't teach you at school that he was also a prophet.)

It is true that many Jews are hypocritical in their automatic support for Israel. BUT, to pretend that the Arab nations, and the Muslim world does not engage in a far greater hypocrisy is ridiculous. Today we are witnessing Arab militia attacking Black Muslims in Darfur. We are witnessing the crackdown of Coptic Chrisitians in Egypt. We are witnessing, in the terroritories themselves, massive corruption and internal kiling. Do we ever hear the Arab League or the Muslim world speak on these issues? Let me answer that. No. All we hear is how bad Israel/the U.S. are. I have yet to see an honest Arab/Muslim intellectual come out and talk of the hypocrisy of the Arab world to demonize Israel and its "so called democracy" when the Muslim world is a vast array of dictatorships. Calling the kettle black my friend. Dont talk of hypocrisy and moral corruption without first looking in the mirror.

Since it was not posted before, & although I can't remember word for word, it went something like this. You do make some very relevant points. Millions of people did lose their lives in World War II, & their lives should be just as important as anyone else's. What is significant to remember are the events that preceded WWII, which was the outright demonization & dehumanization of all Jews who were subjected to racist laws under the Nazi regime. They were deprived of all citizenship rights in 1935 under the racist Nuremberg Laws. This is extremely relevant in the context of the Palestinian catastrophe because Palestinians are also deprived of all their rights based strictly on their identity, and that should be truly disturbing and frightening to the conscience of every Jew especially. In essence, the Palestinians have become the subhumans while being villanized and demonized subjected to racist laws and extreme cruelty, while every justification is made for this.

The problem you'll find with your 'ohne mich' stance is that far from not concerning themselves with you, the Rossners of this world will clutch all the more frantically at your ankles as they go under. Israel NEEDS the support of America and American Jews. Absent this, she is the plaything of Right-wing Christian nuts -- or worse still, all alone in a monolithically hostile world. Perhaps not so much materially as of yet, but psychologically, Israel cannot stand on her own. She has to have the approval of the United States -- and Americans will follow the lead of the American Jewish population in deciding how to judge Israel. Nothing really novel there: we take the word of Irish-Americans for the situation in Ireland, of Polish-Americans for the situation in Poland, decide how to treat Cuba on the basis of what Cuban-Americans want, etc. So you can try opting out. Expect a lot of junk mail, however.

I think you're wrong -- or rather, you misunderstand the situation. It's not a matter of American Jews unanimously supporting Israel and its actions. Rather, for many it seems to be a matter of how to act about that n'er do well younger brother who steals cars and things. Some will insist he isn't doing anything; the police just hate him and persecute him because he's Black. Others will get this pained look -- but pony up when it comes time to hire a lawyer again. Only a very, very few will actually denounce him and urge the judge to throw the book at him. In a way, American Jews are being morally martyred by Israel. They're damned if they support her, and damned if they don't. I don't think most American Jews are prepared to admit any fundamental inequity in the concept of Israel. On the other hand, I also think most American Jews quietly wish Israel would behave a LOT better. These are precisely the one who make the least noise.

So tell me, what was #15 doing here? If #15 was the fifth jew then surely he wouldn't be browsing haaret? If #15 was the fifth jew, surely he wouldn't know about "who is a jew" or about Russians, or Rossner for that matter. #15 surely isn't reading this and surely won't have an answer either.

Any cohesive society has many things in common to bind them together - language, culture, history, political experience etc.. Approximately sixty years ago when Ashkenazi Jews founded Israel after the Holocaust, Yiddish, familiar culture, the Jewish National Fund, the Jewish Agency, an affinity to socialist ideas, the uncertainty of the post-holocaust era etc. formed a close bond between American and Israeli Jews. Today, however, few American Jews speak Hebrew or have knowledge of Hebrew culture, know much about political activity in Israel or know what is socially going on in Israel. All many American Jews have in common with Israel is their Jewish identity and, unfortunately, as time goes bye, this identity is becoming vaguer and diminished. The many "so-called" leaders of the American Jewish community have their own limited constituencies and agendas and don't represent large numbers of American Jews. Alas, this is the reality of the situation.

Marlene still hasn't responded to the questions. PLO charter clearly claimed no sovreignty over Gaza and the West Bank. This became "occupied land" only after Israel won it in war, she still ignores that. what's up with that? While we're on the subject of "occupation", what would have happened to occupied Israel had the combined arab armies been successful in '48? Marlene refuses to answer this as well. what's up with that?

I notice a long post about Jews and the Roma but there is no mention virtually of the Nazis. Are Jews respobnsible for that too? Jews have given a lot to this world and constantly do even after the Pogroms of Russia and the Second World War. Its Jews that got refused entry to help tsunami victims in Sri Lanka and Indonesia. Go ahead help the Roma,that would be a lot more constructive than criticizing the Jews for the Roma Holocaust.

Tell evrybody here about Bill 101, the language police. tell them about the "notwithstanding" clause we have. Tell them about the first nations and how content they are. I love Canada, but we have plenty of warts, huge ones if one takes a magnifying glass to them. Lets some of that honesty of yours. Lets see if it's mind-boggling to you that one bombed mail-box in Montreal brought the war measures act and the army taking over the city, with thousands put in jail without charge. Of course, don't forget that it was the Liberal Trudeau, the one who boosted trade with Cuba, who was in power. Tell us your outrage regarding Canada, the Promised Land.

It seems to me that the true measure of a person, or a people, is how faithful they are to their own morality when faithfulness is hard, when it requires the sacrifice of other, conflicting, desires. By that measure, my people are doing a terrible job, right now. The final chapter hasn't been written yet, though. So long as the Palestinians endure, there is still a chance for us to return to our true, and better, selves.

Defeat is a bitter pill to swallow ! They have so many pills, their stomachs need to get pumped !!!!!! VIVA ISRAEL !

"Most people are locked into simple and limited categories of thought because they are simplistic and limited in their capacity to deal with complexity." Quite frankly, such statements tend to rule you out as someone with an open mind. You have a fairly high opinion of yourself, which I don't happen to share. And mentining my in-laws serves my point because it is a common view that I have heard for a long time. You can be either fish or fowl. American or Israeli, but not both both. My children have been raised to be Americans first.

Something that bothers me a great deal as regards World War II is the fact that Roma Gypsies were also singled out by the Nazi regime as being nothing but criminals, dehumanized, and villanized. There were even laws in effect specifically referring to the Gypsy menace or nuisance. They suffered simultaneously with the Jews in concentration camps, yet, there are many Jews who don't even know this fact because the Roma tragedy is basically unknown, and only what the Jews suffered is considered an exclusivity, which is quite appalling. They were never given a state of their own, and to this day, they are rarely mentioned, and are still treated as criminals in Eastern Europe, and are even subjected to sterilization.

You do make very relevant points. Millions of people did lose their lives, & their lives should be just as important as anyone else, but what is significant to remember are the events that preceded World War II which was the demonization & dehumanization of all Jews who were subjected to racist laws under the Nazi regime which laid the foundation to a far greater tragedy. They were deprived of all citizenship rights in 1935 under the Nuremberg Laws using racist criteria to determine who was a Jew. It's extremely relevant in the context of the Palestinian catastrophe because Palestinians are also deprived of all their rights based strictly on their identity and because they're not Jews. That should be truly disturbing & frightening to the conscience of every Jew especially, but it is not. On the contrary, there are only justifications for the crimes & atrocities committed upon the Palestinians, and now they are in the roles of subhumans who are demonized, and their catastrophe denied.

Since you are ow such an expert on views please fell free to comment on by other postions regardinga two state solution for example,and my opinions on the socio economic direction I think Israel should be taking.I do not equate critisim of Israel with anti semitism automaticaly.However there are a number of people that have very profound ideological grips with Jews and the world that lie at the root of their hatred of Israel, which plays a central role in their world wide passion play.I can distinguish between the two,I dont know issues you have with your in laws but please deal with the content of my posts on their own merits and not act some familly based frustration on me.I look foward to your comments on the rest of my postions.

Its not over yet! 9/11 or something like it will occur again and again until you guys and gals straighten yourselves up religiously (Jews and Christians) and clean up yourselves morally in terms of your personal lives! Its the sword baby! Its the sword! That's the way Islam is spread! Its spread with brute force! Your shields are down and you're fresh meat for the enemy. Nazis are together with Syria and Iran. They're not even for the so-called White Man. It's a lie! If they are against Israel and want to kill Jews, beware! Selah!

Khlaid Please answer . How many Jews are in Arab governments. Israel has the Arabs represented. How many churches used as bath rooms in Israel THe ARabs ran to the church to hide and did on the walls what civilized people do in the bathroom. What country encourages babies to be born so they can grow up and kill Jews. You are just angry that Israel refuses to be the victim any longer

my wife and i-our hearts ache for lsrael but common sense tells us that there is no room for us in our own country which is secular and run by those that defy the Creator.if moses and joshua were running the government we would be there as quick as we could give our possesions away but right now we fear for you-other governments were bad enough but this one looks like it is run by president ahmadinajad's 12th imam that is supposed to lead the arabs on into worldwide muslim domination.

Good Article! It provoked a lot of alienated voices that proved my points from other posts. Not only is America the Promised Land, its the land of Final Destination as far as many of you are concerned. It doesn't matter if you had kids or not. You represent the last generation! The last generation that even identifies with the word Jew. Jewish you will not be if you break off the tree. You either get religious by hooking up with a synnagogue or you join the Evangelical/Born Again Christians. The old Bolsheviks have shot themselves in their heads. They have killed their fellow Jews by supporting Stalinist philosophies or the PLO. Jews you are not or will soon not be. Sad you are working so much against the Survival of Israel. Hitler lives on in in you! The extreme right and the left are the same thing! Selah!

You sound like so many of my in-laws. The slightest criticism of Isreal equals anti-semitism. As an American, it has always bothered me that my in-laws seem more devoted to Israel than to the US. They fought for civil rights and marched against the Vietnam War to make this country better in their eyes. However, they have never done with Israel, giving it far more rein to "protect itself."

Ihave read reponses to this matter and others. I have come to realize Israel has a very big problem. They are no longer weak. They have survived the wars started by the Muslims. THey have built a land out of swamp. They are not going to be the victims any longer. ISRAEL IS HERE TO STAY LIKE IT OR NOT

Look for truth,not just winning the point. Winning the point is meaningless to all those that have lost their lives in the name of this crazy conflict.Dont be afraid to challenge yourself.It is more important than all those that challenge you. Have a good Mothers Day too. Just one more...when thinking about peace think about a just peace and a truthful peace.And if you ever get to that point you will have to be brave for the blocks on both sides wont care about that,only caring that they would want you to join their limited cause.

lI knew their was something more to your shtick.You hate Jews and Israel because you hate Judaism with its "vicious tribal G-d".Well this "Vicious tribal G-d" also commanded what are now the basis for al left wing socio economic policy by anchoring social justice in absolute moral terms.Anyway your understanding of our "vicious G-d" shows the foundations of deep ignorance upon which you build the rest of your mendacious construct.Some hide the deeper background of their hatred of Israel,such as they ultimatly blame Jews for capitalism etc etc, you are of a type I have met often.In your case it is a war against the "oppressive patriachal" nature of Judaism which you belive is the ulitimate source of evil in the world and Israel is a tangible expression of that.By destroying Israel you hope to remove some that reactionary evil born of Judaism.Every time you open your mouth the horrific extent of your ill will and ignorance and personal vindictivness towards us becomes clear.

Israel has violated UN resolution voted for by the United States, which I presume you view to be a racist dictatorship. Israel's recent court ruling on the rights of Israeli Arabs to marry and live with Palestinians is further evidence of Israel violating basic principles of equality. Further, the fact that France also discriminates against its Arab population in no way justifies Israel doing the same. I would also like to point out that the academic paper in question expressly said there was no single monolithic Israeli lobby, however many Israeli lobby groups have been very effective at aligning US actions with Israel's interest often to America's detriment. That was the thesis, to the many who have opinions on it, but appear to have never actually read it.

Israel right or wrong is an awful, tribal and mindless state of mind. Replace the first word with Germany, or crusadors, or muslim and you'll see how awful and deadly this kind of blind faith tribal mindset is. On a related subject, jews can express their identity in the the US much more than in Israel. The chauvinistic, messianic tribalism of israel has taken on racist, undemocratic and apartheid like shapes and qualities that contradict and undermine the moral values of judaism. In many ways, israel is anti-jewish state. To me israel is a foreign entity that doesn't deserve support at this point in her history.

Most people are locked into simple and limited categories of thought because they are simplistic and limited in their capacity to deal with complexity.Relations between American Jews and Israel are essentially human relations with the ups and downs and the ebbs and flows.Israels dont want to feel bummed out that life outside of Israel for Jews isnt all pain and misery and so "what have they sacrificed for" and American jews want quick answers like a 15 second commerical break."Israel is it good or bad?""Quick I have to run"Both must drop the heavy dogma and forge a more natural relationship.Some dont like Israel so what? Their are may ways to get accross the highly interesting reality of Israel to american Jews, our communities need to stress less the purely political re mythic Israel and try to hook up American Jewish youth with their Israel counterparts.We need to "get out more" Both groups do.The whole thing is far too intellectualised ,abstratced and neurotic.Yallah ! Targen Mangal

Poor Debra, living the high life in Long Island and seemingly unaware of the simple distinctions between warfare and genocide. It's a shame you were given the opportunity to live a wonderful life in the best country in the world when so many others were not afforded the same chance. It's important people with your sheltered views exist so the rest of the world can understand why your very thoughts are flat out wrong. This isn't an opinion, simply fact. Have you, as a civilian, ever been a target of terrorism? And don't provide the usual "Israel occupation forces this." The Pals have had their chances, remember Camp David accords? You speak of poor leadership in the USA, but what do you make of the leadership in the Arab world? Maybe you should discuss this very point next time you visit your mosque.

Please Debra, do us all a favor and get with reality. That's all, thanks.

"I do however believe in truth whatever that is." - Ronnie Wolman I don't understand you, but what does it matter? I've read many of your posts and you seem like someone with whom I could get along. Let's leave it at that - time to begin the Mother's Day festivities! Adieu

Debra-I have to say as an American, Israeli, and convert to Judaism, that your comments are rather appalling. As someone whose ancestors came to the US in the 1600's and who has NO Jewish relatives, I find it VERY difficult to understand how you fail to see the unique nature of the Nazi's systematic murder of the Jews. In addition, Israel doesn't oppress the Arabs as much as the Arabs oppress themselves. Remember that Arafat had millions stashed away for himself while the vast majority of HIS people were and are in great poverty. You sound very much like many of the ignorant Peace Now-types I have meet in my 5 years in Israel. Please get back to your religious roots, ma'am!

Debra,my own personal beliefs are my own.I am not defensive about them.My struggles are mine. I do however believe in truth whatever that is. I obviously cant talk to you about that for some reason or another in your own psyche.You just prefer to work within your own view of the world without question. So be it.

Just one out of five of present-day American Jews do not identify with Israel? My guess is that it is more than fifty per cent that do not care about Israel. For that matter, these same people could care less about their own Jewish heritage or about the Jewish religion. These kind of Jews want to be assimilated into the American mainstream and they want their Jewish identity to disappear.

I have great respect for the US, Canada, and Australia. However: 1) Not every democratic country in the world went for multi-ethnic (no European country really did, in fact none except US, Canada, Australia. 2) During WW II the US, Canada, and Australia turned their back on us Jews with our vicious tribal God (no entrance for refugees). So multi-ethnic didn't really work for us. That's why we need our anachronistic little niche. As far as I know Australia has a quite restrictive immigration policy, particularly for Asians 3) Indigineous people in the US, Canada, and Australia, African Americans in the US, Mexican workers may beg to differ with your ideal picture of mult-ethnicity. 4) Come to Israel and see how multi-culti and ethnic we are, brother

I resent your first question. And, I don't have to be reminded or instructed as to what my history is and what it is not. I consider the history of mankind to be "my" history, and I suggest you begin to think the same way. You say you are a Jew, and, yet, you blithely negate your own history by calling its core - the Bible - "a set of myths." As far as I am concerned, this is muddled thinking on your part. Would you, in another incarnation, base who you are - your essential identity - on Grimm's Fairy Tales? And, speaking of "facts," a mythical history cannot pass itself off as real history, no matter how much you would like it to be otherwise. You admitted that you are not a "big history buff." That is obvious. You prefer to base your "facts" on myths. That is fine with me, but don't expect me to agree with it or embrace it as my reality, as well.

Forgive me for only selectively answering to your tiresome monologue. 1) If the Democrats flip over and can't stand the pressure - it's their fault, not AIPAC's. I wouldn't vote for somebody who is so easily pressured, if I were American. 2) With respect to the Guardian article: Israeli Arabs do suffer some discrimination, not as a result of deliberate "racism", but simply as a result of the fact they are unfortunately in a state of war with their Palesinian brothers. Nevertheless they have equal rights as citizens and any residual discrimination will be resolved together with the Israeli-Arab conflict. Compare that to the Japanese Americans were held in concentration camps, or even France which has a 10% muslim population with a zero representation in their parlament.

"JEWS WERE NOT JUST VICTIMS OF WAR, THEY WERE SYSTEMATICALLY ANNIHILATED. YOU SEEM NOT TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A WAR VICTIM AND GENOCIDE." -Ehud First, there's no need to shout. Your weak argument will succeed or fail in a normal voice. Second, as far as getting education, it is a fact that of the 62 million deaths in WWII, 37 million were civilian, while only 25 million were military. Are you trying to argue that these civilians were not also "systematically" killed by each side? Did the allies not target Japanese and German civilians for annihilation with fire bombs and atomic weapons? Did the Japanese not "systematically" target Chinese civilians for annihilation? Why are these targeted attempts at annihilation any different from the Nazis' targeting of Jews for annihilation? It is not my fault that you can't or won't rise above your limited, subjective way of thinking.

"The focus should not be on the Hamas charter, but on the causes that brought it about..." Nothing as patronizing as a well meaning (pseudo)liberal. The Palestinian people chose Hamas in relatively free elections. They did so as part of a general fundamentalistic trend in the Arab and Muslim world, including countries as far away from Israel as they are from NYC, and which have nothing to do with the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. By the way, what do you think about Malcom X's view of American racism?

proud call in pioneering days was go west young man notwithstanding poor redskins.

fact, over 98% of the land mass in the middle east is owned by arabs. countries you mentioned are filled with anti-Semites. try equal opportunity by living in in another middle east country and give this israeli a break

It's your right to be an American and to chose not to connect to Israel. I respect this right. However, it is not true that you would not be welcomed by Israelis. By the way, if you are so disconnected, how come you correspond on the subject on an Israeli website?

I think it should be noted that the Hamas Charter was written in 1988, and certainly by a generation of Palestinians who were refugees and/or just living under Israel's brutal occupation, and that it was Israel who initially supported Hamas as a way to counter the PLO and Palestinian nationalism by just keeping the people focused on religion.. Considering the elapse of 40 years from when the majority of Palestinians were expulsed frrom their homes at the time the charter was written, 20 years of occupation, totalling 40 years altogether, and Israel's own racist laws and policies, the focus should not be on the Hamas charter, but on the causes that brought it about, and that still continues to exist but to much worsening heights.

Debra are you Jewish? If you are,then its also your history.Surely the history of the Jewish people must mean something more than a part of worlds history. As a Jew you could stand and fight for what you believe in within Judaism,whatever that is. If you are not,of course its another story and if you have renounced your religion it's different again.Its obviously because your name is Cohen I wonder. I am not a big history buff either when it relates to religion. The bible for me is a set of myths written by our great ancestoral rabbis and the messiah for me is not coming and wont come but we can bring about a time of peace not just by the ceasing of war (that is sometimes essential to preserve justice) but by people holding up reasonable ideals. I believe that democracy as imperfect as it is,is the way to go and it IS acceptable in the name of it to defend even in an undemocratic way to save it If you are Jewish I encourage you to read more about the facts.

12 OUT OF 120 KNESSETH MEMBERS ARE ARAB CITIZENS - FREELY ELECTED. IN FRANCE (OFFICIALLY 105 MUSLIM POPULATION): ZERO. I GUESS ISRAEL LOOKS BETTER NOT ONLY ON PAPER.AND YES - ISRAEL HAS IGNORED MANY BIASED UN RESOLUTIONS VOTED IN BY A MAJORITY OF RACIST, DICTATORIAL REGIMES (JUST AS THE US HAS). IN THAT IT HAS BEEN "FAITHFUL TO THE PRINCIPLES OF THE CHARTER OF THE UN".

Now if you disagree with my previous paragraph (end of part 4) then try the following: Read the article written in the Guardian about discrimination and blunt racism in which Israeli Arabs treated by the state (some even in the law), and check the facts. Now if you agree with the article than go live on T.V. and criticize Israel for the mistreatment of Arabs. If despite agreeing with article you are apprehensive from speaking out then ask yourself why, and I almost sure that you will get to a similar conclusion I did i.e. Speaking up against something bad Israel does acknoledge that there are ?bad Jews? and will promote anti-Semitism in the U.S. This is self-denial and unfortunatelly the roaming silence give way to the zealots to speak out in a way that make them look as if they represent American Jews in large, and why? Because these are the only Jewish voices heard in public.

Media: How come that in the media, Hollywood, people can?t criticize Israel? How come that Jews who heard are always zealots? The movie ?Munich? -Where are the liberal Jews to speak out and defend Spielberg? I could only heard the critics among the Jews. A possibility is that you moderate Jews fear that criticizing Israel will spread anti-Semitism within the American public, and that by publicly claiming that there are ?bad Jews?. You live in self-denial and time to reconsider.

Iraq: Is it right to assume that the gang including the like of ?Mofaz of mass destruction? gave orders to AIPAC in which then it?s zealots push forward leaving the moderate members mere spectators with the role of stooges? (Never trust the members of the gang ran by ?Mofaz of mass destruction? they don?t give a damn to your well-being and to America in general. They are self-centered criminals who use America and as a gratitude sending AIPAC members to spy on them. These scumbags, ruthless, heartless, selfish SOBs who live in a mentality of mass destruction would easily sacrifice anything and anybody for their destructive and criminal goals. They created a situation that rather of being grateful to America?s help, they have made Israel a ?thorn in America?s arse?. Whenever and wherever America move it feel that thorn, when they sit, lie down or simply walk it?s hurt and hash from mentioning constipation as they sit and etc..)

If AIPAC not comprises from zealots alone as the article point, then how come that all its decisions (including pushing for the Iraq war) are right wing ones that even most Israelis object to? In fact by not speaking out you caused a misconception, as due to the like of AIPAC many perceive the Iraq war as the war in which the Jews sent America to fight for Israel. This despite that fact that at the commencement of the war only around 50% of Jews supported the war compared with 75% of the general public. However by not speaking out you moderate Jews left the stage to the zealots and allow such misconception to prevail.

-You let the like of Pearl, Wolfowitz, Krystol, Gaffney and other fascists to be the front face of when speaking out of Israel. Where are the moderate voices to counter them? -How come that every democrat who criticize Israel has to back flip and renege with a public statement immediately after a criticism? I can remember case in which Hillary Clinton criticized a certain Israeli action and had to back flip publicly and so do John Kerry (I think he condemn the separation wall in it?s route). -If they were not the Jewish zealots that pressured them to renege, than who did Mr. Garber? And where were the moderate Jews to defend their right to criticize Israel? On a personal level where were you? -Did you ask yourself whether those Democrats who seek ambitious careers were pressured to support the Iraq war against their real opinion in order to ensure rosy political future? -Were they pressured by the like of AIPAC receiving their instructions from the brutal former Israeli government

"Millions of Jews, Poles, Germans, Russians, etc., etc. because they were Jews, Poles, Germans, Russians, etc,. etc. Why can`t people simply recognize that fact? The deaths of the Jews was special to Jews, but not special above all the other people who were killed. All of the war dead are special, and it should serve as a lesson that war must end." JEWS WERE NOT JUST VICTIMS OF WAR, THEY WERE SYSTEMATICALLY ANNIHILATED. YOU SEEM NOT TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A WAR VICTIM AND GENOCIDE.AND IF YOU DON'T YOU ALSO DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FALLEN SOLDIER AND, SAY, THE SYSTEMATIC ERADICATION OF AMERICAN INDIANS BY YOUR GREAT COUNTRY WITH AN OPPORTUNITY FOR EVERYBODY AS WELL AS SPAIN, ARMENIANS BY TURKS, TOOTSIES BY HUTUS IN RUANDA, BLACKS BY ARABS IN SUDAN. I PITTY YOU -GET SOME EDUCATION!

The author treats these as separate issues. They are not. Americans support Israel for many reasons. Among them, is our opposition to the clearly-stated and often-repeated Muslim Arab intention to kill Jews, wherever they find them.

Most U.S. Jews are under an illusion of Israel as a great democratic & humane soiety & cannot be objective. Some of Israel's Declaration of Independence, a/k/a Declaration Upon Its Establishment, is nothing more than an outright fabrication & does not reflect its attitudes, laws & policies towards non-Jews and the UN. This directly contradicts its statement that it will abide by the principles of the UN Charter (it has violated at least 65 UN resolutions),& that it would treat all people as equals. This very statement was incorporated into Israel's own Basic Laws. It may look good on paper, but that's the only place where it exists. ".....it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the UN."

Salaam Alekum my devious cousins, I do believe Prophet Moses made a mistake. He should have taken the Jews to America. America is the land of milk and honey and nice cars, beautiful women. Instead he brought you to this miserable land that does not have milk nor honey and not even oil. Worst yet Moses died before he saw this land. Maybe God tried to save him from the misery of seeing it. I do not know why they call it the holy lands. "It should have been called "take me out of here land". Also, you should not call your self the chosen people. Chosen for what? To suffer and be oppressed and kicked around. If God made you the chosen one, How come he chose for you this land in order to keep fighting until dooms day? I think the answer would be, maybe all religions are changed by man to fit his desire and evil goals. Wake up guys, we have the same God. Why would God ask us to fight for his sake? He is more than capable to fight for him self. God does not work in Real Estate so he can promise land to people. Also God did not ask us to kill in his name. He is more than capable to kill for himself.

As an assimilated American of jewish descent, I am not connected to the jewish community. I am accepted warmly by Americans generally. I am not affiliated with any religion. Even if I am within Israel's legal definition of "jew", only the outcast Russians would accept me as a jew. Israelis do not want me and do not need my support. The Rossners of this world should not concern themselves about me.

america sure is the promised land. in israel all the hellenist evil government does it drag people out of their homes, hand them over to the enemy and then have the nerve to call it self a "democracy." ummmmmm hello. a democracy means you have to protect the 4th ammendmant. you don't violate peoples civil rights then call yourself a democracy. hypocrites!

10 Talkbacks and not one mentioning all those German Jews who thought Germany was the Promised Land. But in truth, the United States is different. Even if it was beset by catastrophe, cataclysm or a political or economic upheaval Jews would fight to stay part of what would then become a new American dream. There really is a bi-polarity here. The AB Yehoshua incident at a centenary of the American Jewish Committee was no accident. Let a thousand flowers blossom and hundreds of schools of thought contend.

As espoused by the racist facist Hamas constitution. Your side says no negotiation,no recognition,Jihad till the Islamic republic extends over all of Israel. Is that what you call universal values?

My family's history in the US dates back to the mid-19th century. I am an American. And, my country is the land of opportunity not just for Jews but for everyone who comes here. We are a great nation and could be even greater with the right leadership. For me, Israel is a foreign country, just like France, Italy, China, etc. I have little affection for it due to its oppression of the Palestinian people. If anyone challenges my views and tells me I should be loyal to Israel because of the Holocaust, I say, 60 million people died in WWII. Millions of Jews, Poles, Germans, Russians, etc., etc. because they were Jews, Poles, Germans, Russians, etc,. etc. Why can't people simply recognize that fact? The deaths of the Jews was special to Jews, but not special above all the other people who were killed. All of the war dead are special, and it should serve as a lesson that war must end. Otherwise, there will be no one special left on this Earth - except for the cockroaches.

Countries like the US, Canada and Australia are the true 'promised land'. These countries were built - and continue to be developed - by people from many ethnic and religious backgrounds. While these countries are far from perfect, their main premise is that in a muli-ethnic, multi-religious society all citizens are equal under the law, and that society should be based on a culture of tolerance and respect of differences. Compare this to Israel, which lives for the anachronistic idea of a 'Jewish state' promised by a vicious tribal God. I find it mind boggling how in the total land mass under Israel's control about half of the population live in large prisons/bantustans while the people who belong to the right religion (the Jews) enjoy democracy and economic prosperity. Promised Land it is not!

We are responsible for the survival of Judeo-Christian Western Civilization! The Cultural Relativists have gone overboard and over the top. Lines have to be drawn! Otherwise we'll all be cutting off the hands of thieves, decapitating adulterers and worst of all, covering up our beautiful women with burkas! Selah! Selah!

Every writer,if they are not strictly an observer like a paid journalist,promotes his or her agenda.This is true right though this business.But they promote it not through advertising but intellectual points.This is fair.It happens on the Right of course too if you havent noticed and you probably havent. The New Israel Fund promotes understanding between the Israel and the Palestinians and is as important to the future of Israel as the IDF searching for suicide bombers.

take that away and we are left with a thousand different viewpoints whether they are political,social,religious etc. With no intermediary between Jews and G-d,we are very strong with our views in many different ways.This can be seen as chutzpah,arrogance but one thing is we will always question.The bottom line is the idea of survival of the jewish people. You can argue too the relevance of that.But ultimately it is in the mind of virtually every Jew.

Khalid is absolutely right with this but we have to use a backdrop and the relativity of Arab's influence in this. Israel is not in a vacumn and most jews support Israels right to exist. When a brick is thrown through your window,you immediately stop the local situation to defend yourself. That is why most Jews,although as you see here argue INTELLECTUALLY they still support the defence of Israel 100%.

Well, you had your fun with Generation X in the 80s and 90s with Intifada I and II. Sabre and Chatilla made it appear that the Israelis were morally bankrupt. Next you had your time of it with all the photo ops of Palestinian kids standing with slingshots in front of tanks. You were the strongest when Arafat went to Oslo and when Barak offered you 96% of the West Bank and then promptly broke off negotiations. Then this is what happened. Perhaps following the attack by one Jewish Meshuganah, Hamas went into full gear with suicide attacks that killed more Israeli civilians than ever. Then you had Palestinians like Hyman Al Zawahiri who went even further and slaughtered 3000 American civilians on 9/11. So now Generation X has an entirely different view of Pals. You had the high ground for a while but now you've lost it. More rational Palestinians than you are now working with us to fix up this mess made by Islamists and organize the good folks into something better. Selah!

If that is what you meant. The other possibility, a bond based on ancient Jewish values and contemporary universal values also does not make sense, since there are no contemporary universal values either. Aside from that, what kind of values you have in mind: moral values? Then a bond between Jews cannot be based on those since moral values can bond Jews and non-Jews alike. So what are we asked to bond around really?

Direct access to the top in the White house.The oil lobby with major holdings by the Bush family in oil. Oil producers being able to blackmail the USA(at the moment). The power of Arab billions invested in the USA in the media and elsewhere. The threat of using Euros instead of dollars in the oil market as the French have been trying to get them to do. Balance does not seem important for these "intellectuals". The citizens of the USA have the right to know the whole story.Real accademics provide it,not just use rubbery sources to substantiate their prejudices. Neither are they prepared to defend their findings in a public debate. Intellectuals or cowards or worse??

To Israel. It is very clear that universal values, such human rights, equality of all men and women before the law, are rejected by most Jews when Israel is involved. This is why the vast bulk of Jews in this world just support Israel right or wrong. Yes, Jews may stand for black rights and Latinos rights in the US. But when these very Jews come to Israel, they carefully support discrimination against non-Jews. They simply turn their back 180 degrees on the universal ideals they would support in America or some European countries. Isn't this the ultimate form of hypocrisy?

I do not know enough about New Israel Fund to give an opinion on the full- range of its programs. It would however been a bit more honest of Mr. Garber to indicate that NIF has done propaganda work for the Palestinians among the Jewish community in the United States. Some of us happen to take the position that this is not in the interest of Israel.