A new New Middle East

I'm not surprised you haven't heard of this. Israelis are habitually fed half-truths and sometimes even lies. European and American citizens know better what is happening in the Palestinian territories than most Israelis who live only a few miles away. You don't have access to the full picture because your media, despite a strong overall public sense of freedom of expression, has a bad habit of self-censorship. This self-censorship by the media is much more dangerous than any government censorship. What information you do get is reframed based on some bizarre Israeli paradigm. You think you know about history or what is happening in the Palestinian territories? Think again. I think you should do some historical research and serious soul searching.

Palestinian Islamic terrorists believe suicide bombings win Allah's pleasure and guarantee the bomber a one-way ticket on the Paradise Express to the land of of rivers flowing with wine, and a never ending supply of virgins galore. They kill for the sake of Allah, and they believe the result of their so-called martyrdom is the abundant rewards that Allah will bestow upon them in the Hereafter. You lack honesty.

"Did you know that Zionist terrorists (militia) during the 1940`s were the first to use suicide bombings?" 1. Which Zionist militia? There were three main ones and several splinters. 2. When on earth did this happen and why does no one know about it? I know! You're either lying or wrong. The "suicide bomb", as we know it today, was pioneered by the Tamil Tigers in the late 1970s.

Don't underestimate the Jews. We have survived the Euro nazis, communism, the Roman, Ottoman empires, slavery in Egypt, etc. and we will survive the Arab economic boycotts or the Palestinian Arab terrorists. As for the Palestinian lands, even the definition "Palestinian" was appropriated by the Arabs from the Jews. Moreover, the Christians are telling us that Jesus was not Palestinian Arab from Bethlehem, Palestine but a Jew from Bethlehem, Judea. However, in your dreams he was probably Palestinian Arab. If somebody wants a divorce you give it to them but, apparently, the Arabs who claim to be Palestinian do not want to give the Jews a divorce. Who else will give them the Scandinavian type health care and the welfare check. Can you get it in Jordan, the first Palestinian Arab state, where not only the queen is Palestinian Arab but also 70% of the Jordanian population? In Jordan you get nothing but in a Jewish state you get everything. No wonder an Israeli passport is a sought out commodity among the Palestinian Arabs. In addition, the Arabs despite the vastness of their landmass will not give their Arabs brothers a second Palestinian state (first is Jordan) but the dumb Jews will. Ask the Kurds? When they wanted a state from the Arabs they were sprayed with chemicals.

We don't need an Egyptian Jew who will later be blamed for whatever goes wrong for the Palestinians. Let the Arab empire help their brothers.

Did you know that Zionist terrorists (militia) during the 1940's were the first to use suicide bombings?

Mr GIJoe, It is clear to me your Jewish identity comes along with a little chip on your shoulder because of 2000 years of persecution. You seem to understand the need to resist and fight back when it is Jews who are being attacked or forced to live as sub-humans...but if it Jews who are doing the dirty deeds, you can not fathom why a young child would throw a stone at you. Societies being abused tend to develope hate for the abuser...I doubt you care much for Nazis. Anyway, Sorry about your poor friend who hurt his knee when a rock was thrown at him. You ask, who can a soldier fix this....? Soldiers can't fix it....your best bet is to control at least the most rabid, Zionist militants... That might be a start. Shalom.

Israel as a refuge for Jews sounds nice and was the mythology of my childhood. 1) Tom Segev pointed out in The Seventh Million that proto-Israel, Jewish Authority, of Weissman and Ben Gurion, in fact, turned away German Jews during the Showa 2) If those who feel that Jews as Jews must have a state, there are probably plenty of countries willing to carve up alittle bit of land and take us. I bet Mexico would love to have a Jewish state in Baja California, and it would be alot easier for the Beverly Hills/San Fernando Valley maniacs to go there instead of the West Bank. 3) Europeans who feel guilty about the holocaust: Instead of saying how important it is that we're here fighting over land with people who didn't kill my relatives in the 1940's, why don't you give up a chunk of Germany or Poland? (akiva eldar said something similar in haaretz several weeks ago) 4) binationalism is alot less of a fantasy than the 2-State Shuffle is 5) Big Oil will definitely ditch Israel, I agree. So, our best bet is to make allies with the Palestinians against this whole rotten oil-soaked imperialist mess. The Palestianians are the Jews of the Arab world. Among Arabs, they are the most educated, the least religious, the least sexist, the least tribalist, a hodgepodge of citizenship of origins, the best sense of humor. Together we could lead a massive reformation of the Middle East. Together we could ally with the anti-feudalists, the anti-sexists, the anti-tribalists, and the religious moderates and totally get rid of the monarchies and dictatorships. Whether you like it or not there are approx. 300M Arabs, growing more economically and militarily and culturally powerful by the day; and I think it is a fantasy to think we can live here at all without having the Palestinians as part of our team.

Johannes, we speak Hebrew and Arabic in this part of the world. What do you know about our lives, Jews or Arabs? Our figth for life is thousands of miles from your safe Stockholm. If the state of Israel would do what you and the rest of the western world want, militant Muslims would wash their hands in our blood and you would and could not do anything. And who asked your humanistic oppinion anyway?

How convinient for the elites af black Africa and rulers of the Arab world, that their subjects prefer abuse from "their own" masters the comparatively decent standard of living they had under white colonialists. I guess the people always deserve what they get.

giladi has a vision, a FALSE ONE. Since 1954, Russian Authorities encouraged the Palestinians to live in tents, in order to protest the existence of ISRAEL, so what makes Giladi think, that he will settle the palestinians into decent housing? Is he more powerful than Abbas or Putin? WHAT LOKSHEN IS HE FEEDING NOW?

'So Joe, what`s the reason that Israel doesn`t follow them?' I am in a rush now; I will be happy to reply in the next couple of days.. To be continued..

'Israel has no right to steal our land ...'. Ya...and the Palestinians have the 'right' to mass murder innocents, right? - How foolish of me, to try and 'deprive' you from the 'right' to murder me...

Ariel Sharon decided together with Israeli leftist groups and arab Mk's to agree to the Palestinian demand to push all Jews into the Sea!!! Would all Jews youg and old report to the seafront at Gush Katif where armoured buses will transport you to the water,Because they definatley will stone and shoot you along the way. YEAH RIGHT. Reading all these responses above would convince anyone who belives in any chance of peace to change his views real quick. The Irish who love us the Arabs who blatantly state that evrything is a political stunt and nothing will ever be enough. To those who pretend to be Jewish and back up the Arabs pls at least spell your names right use a phone book or pretend to be called Beilin or Peres maybe even Aloni. Hey Guys lets face it you will never let us live in peace.

how about Jewish non-suicide bombings? the result is the same. You lack honesty. Khalid

Haver Knesset Barakah returns from syria and states that "Syria is a democratic state which insures the civil rights of It's people". The words of a proud Arab member of the Israeli Knesset, another man that Avnery and his merry band of groovy leftists point as representing the "Good Arab" the arab that they meet eye to eye with, a man they can make peace with. Avnery is also famous for taking a few of his cafe folk with him to Beirut and meeting with his good friend Arafat. So now after Rosengarten we now will be bombarded by the socalled "Canaanites". Groovy lefty's who talk about Jewish_Moslem coexistence. Why? Because it sounds so COOL! Sure maybe it sounds nice, somewhat messianic, WOW! GREAT! we could have another Lebanon. Within all this cheap revamped Stalinist thinking is forgotten what was proven by the Irish in their 2-2 draw to Israel. "Murphy's Law" if shit can happen it will happen. I have read your literature listened to your dreams, and I have acquaintances who think as you do. They are nice people, but the same way that the settlers have neer had a real idea of what to do with the Palestinians, your arguments also fail to fill that vacum. In many cses you have adopted the idea we will be accepted the moment we disappear, and yes that is what you are saying. First the Israeli has to disappear and then the Jew can take his rightful place in the NEW! democratic middle east. Sounds Cool! But what planet are you guys and gals living on? Today in the middle east we have confrontations that have nothing to do with you or me. The Sudanese are not killing black Christians in the south because of pressure and heartaches brought on by the Palestinian dilema. BIG OIL is paying big bucks to keep Israel on the burner, every speech an Arab foreign minister makes somehow includes a remark peertaining to the evil Jewish state. Like a Saidian orientalist, you have taken the view that the once proud conquering Arab has become the victim of western and Christian colonialization, suffering horribly under European occupation. Sure they have, but to cover them in milk and cl;aim they are pearly clean is rediculous. I realize Leib that you have lost that Jewish feeling, the whole concept of being a secular Jew does not have the dogma and mysticism of the groovy left. The reason that this state was formed was not in the name of becoming just anothe Arab state, run like an Arab state. hezl saw the need for a Jewish state, as a home and place of refuge. Was he nuts? well europe the sophisticated, academic and artistic brought Herzl's prophecies to fruition. Not nice. Israel at the time could not get the British to open the borders, thus millions died. They might have lived in horrible conditions here, but atleast it would have been the only place in the world that accepted Jews, with no qustions or excuses. This is the essence of the state, that you have been free to speak, write, congregate and forget is just another testimony to the reality that this state even after fifty years at war, has allowed its citizenship including the Arab Israelis the fundamental liberal right of free speech and thought. Avanary is not in jail or dead, even though his views rock the foundations of the State and the Jewish ethos. Freedom baby! You got it, enjoy it, just do not belittle the fact. A Jewish state for the Jews, we did it. Feel the joy, give it it's historical and moral significance. We have done a pretty good job of state building without any Saudi help. While our enemy is producing television serials on the"Protocols of Zion" and "The Passover Blood right" our secualr children are being educted toward peace. this is nice. Sorry but for me the concept as a Jewish state, yes for refuge is extremely important, anti-semitism still exists and is getting more acceptable in these days of very "Big Oil".

I love your suggestion about spending time in Chevron. I have been there. I spent four months there trying to understand the life style that these poeple lead. Palestinians do not seem to want a democracy, it would take away their whole reason for living. They seem to be brought up to hate. Answer this question for me. why are children, that are two young to understand politics, throwing rocks at soldiers? I have personally had rocks thrown at me and its a horrible feeling knowing that I can not fight back because the thrower is a child. I cannot arrest this child, I cannot even go up to this child and warn him to stop. I have a friend that was hit in the knee with a rock by a child and spent 2 days in the hospital, he still feels pain from this months later. Tell me as a soldier how to fix this. The children are learning the wrong things.

Zeev, Nice to know that we can start to stand up for what we truly believe. And thanks to Haaretz for allowing us to put forward this view which has been so suppressed especially in the Diaspora, but in Palesrael too. I have visited the one-democratic-state.org site before but was disappointed to see that there weren't any new articles. http://www.one-state.org/ has more recent articles, but still seems silent since 2004 i suspect that our team gets demoralized in the face of all of this empty chest-beating. nonetheless, i also suspect that we are alot more powerful than anyone gives us credit for. I have read polls that said between 15 and 25% of Israeli Jews support a binational state. Also one has to assume that 100% of Israeli Arabs support a binational state. Add in probably 70% of West Bank and Gaza Palestinians, 100% of Palestinian refugees. It looks like even if we aren't an absolute majority, we are probably a plurality of the entire affected population in the region. We need to feel the confidence to call for what we know is the only valid and stable outcome for the situation. This 2-state shuffle is a joke. whether you have the kinder-gentler form advocated by Gush Shalom and Uri Avnery, or the Busharon versions with or without the wall, it all is a very temporary situation requiring ever-increasing amounts of military to keep it in place. And it will continue to require the US to bankroll each side as foreign-aid junkies. Palesrael is the only solution i am willing to fight for. Does ynetnews.com have discussion boards too? Best regards, YL

First of all I was not drafted into the IDF. I volontarily joined because it is my right as a jew to defend myself and my people. I grew up in The Us and and am a proud citizen. But, Israel is a jewish country and never forget that. For 2000 years we have been persecuted and killed by the millions and finally we have a chance to fight for ourselves instead of sitting idoly by and watching our families dies. I like that statement that someone said in this forum. I don't remember exactly how he put it but he said something along the lines of, don't forget that when a palestinian state is erected, palestininians will have no right to enter Israel at all. People continually say that not all Palestinians are bad, owe I agree, but why aren't those good Palestinians trying to change the bad. I never see that part, and I have been in these Arab villages, never have I seen a sign or an ad telling poeple to stop killing, its always pictures of children with weapons. The rest of the world doesn't even like little kids playing with toy guns and these people hand their children real ones. Where is the sanity.

continued: As today's weapons of mass destruction go, the human bomb is cheap. A Palestinian security official pointed out that, apart from a willing young man, all that is needed is such items as nails, gunpowder, a battery, a light switch and a short cable, mercury (readily obtainable from thermometers), acetone, and the cost of tailoring a belt wide enough to hold six or eight pockets of explosives. The most expensive item is transportation to a distant Israeli town. The total cost of a typical operation is about a hundred and fifty dollars. The sponsoring organization usually gives between three thousand and five thousand dollars to the bomber's family... Sheikh Ahmed Yassin is the spiritual leader of Hamas. He was released from an Israeli prison in 1997, and during the next two years I had many meetings with him, in his small house on an unpaved lane in a crowded quarter of Gaza. He cautioned that I would find it hard to make martyrdom comprehensible to Western readers. "I doubt that they will be willing to understand your explanations," he said. "Love of martyrdom is something deep inside the heart. But these rewards are not in themselves the goal of the martyr. The only aim is to win Allah's satisfaction. That can be done in the simplest and speediest manner by dying in the cause of Allah. And it is Allah who selects the martyrs."... A member of Hamas explained the preparation: "We focus his attention on Paradise, on being in the presence of Allah, on meeting the Prophet Muhammad, on interceding for his loved ones so that they, too, can be saved from the agonies of Hell, on the houris, and on fighting the Israeli occupation and removing it from the Islamic trust that is Palestine."... Many of the volunteers and the members of their family told stories of persecution, including beatings and torture, suffered at the hands of Israeli forces. I asked whether some of the bombers acted from feelings of personal revenge. "No," a trainer told me. "If that alone motivates the candidate, his martyrdom will not be acceptable to Allah. It is a military response, not an individual's bitterness, that drives an operation. Honor and dignity are very important in our culture. And when we are humiliated we respond with wrath."... http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?011119fa_FACT1

"Israel brought suicide bombings upon her self." Of course, she did, by occupying so-called "Islamic Palestine," not just the West Bank and Gaza. In 2001, I read an article that appeared in the New Yorker, written by Nasra Hassan, titled "An Arsenal of Believers: Talking to the Human Bombs" The suicide bombings, called sacred explosions by the Islamic fanatics, have more to do with religion and for the sake of Allah than for anything else. Because of the 800 word limit, I must post my response in more than one part, at the end of the last part, I will provide a link to the article: Excerpts from "An Arsenal of Believers": Since 1982, I have been an international relief worker, and after 1987 my job brought me regularly to the Middle East, especially to the Palestinian territories. In 1996, I was posted in the Gaza Strip during one of the most vicious cycles of suicide bombings. To understand why certain young men voluntarily blow themselves up in the name of Islam, I began, without official sponsorship, to research their backgrounds and the beliefs that had led them to such extreme tactics... None of the suicide bombers?they ranged in age from eighteen to thirty-eight?conformed to the typical profile of the suicidal personality. None of them were uneducated, desperately poor, simple-minded, or depressed. Many were middle class and, unless they were fugitives, held paying jobs. More than half of them were refugees from what is now Israel. Two were the sons of millionaires. They all seemed to be entirely normal members of their families. They were polite and serious, and in their communities they were considered to be model youths. Most were bearded. All were deeply religious... Hamas and Islamic Jihad consider suicide bombings a military response to what they regard as Israeli provocations. But there is a clear correlation between the peace process and cycles of suicide attacks designed to block progress. Whenever I broached the issue, however, the Islamists denied that there was any such link... Before September 11th, Islamist fundamentalist groups had sponsored human bombings not only in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and Israel but also in Afghanistan, Algeria, Argentina, Chechnya, Croatia, Kashmir, Kenya, Kuwait, Lebanon, Pakistan, Panama, Tajikistan, Tanzania, and Yemen. The targets have ranged from ordinary people to world leaders, including the Pope, who was to have been assassinated in Manila in 1995. Dressed as a priest, the assassin presumably planned to detonate himself as he kissed the Pontiff's ring... In 1988, Dr. Fathi Shiqaqi, a founder of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, whose assassination, in 1995, was attributed to the Mossad, Israel's secret service, wrote a document in which he laid out the importance of penetrating enemy territory and set down guidelines for the use of explosives in martyrdom operations. These rules were aimed at countering religious objections to the truck bombings that had become almost routine in Lebanon in the nineteen-eighties. Shiqaqi encouraged what he called "exceptional" martyrdom as a necessary tactic in jihad fi sabeel Allah (striving in the cause of Allah): "We cannot achieve the goal of these operations if our mujahid"?holy warrior?"is not able to create an explosion within seconds and is unable to prevent the enemy from blocking the operation. All these results can be achieved through the explosion, which forces the mujahid not to waver, not to escape; to execute a successful operation for religion and jihad; and to destroy the morale of the enemy and plant terror into the people." This capability, he said, is "a gift from Allah."... To be continued.

"The Israeli government must know that to attract the Jews from the Diaspora Israel should be a Jewish state. Why in the world would we leave the USA or Canada to come to state that is not fully Jewish or only partially Jewish?" So you're just waiting until the ethnic cleansing is complete before you make aliya? "No Jews have moved to any sovereign Arab state either legally or illegally." What about the hundreds of thousands of Jewish settlers? Oh that's right, you did say "sovereign Arab state." I always did have trouble with semantics. "Why should productive Jews pay high taxes for those who are interested in welfare maintaining 4 wives and 20 kids." I've been to Palestine a couple of times and I never met a single family with one husband, four wives and 20 children. Maybe I was in the wrong place. Maybe you can help me out here.

I hear proponents of both sides of this issue mouthing off about who is more right. One thing that always gets missed is the compromise issue - Israelis and leftist want to help the Palestinian economy in a bid to help boost their strength, and the Palestinians want an end to occupation first. While the Palestinians have a good goal, their method of obtaining it are not set in reality. Anyone who says the occupation is the problem is really deluding themselves. Everything has a reason for existing - the occupation, simply a way of protecting Israel and its citizens from 57 years of attacks. Ending it, with Palestinians in the present mind set that they are will only create more tension, more power struggles, more corruption. Look at Russia's induction into the world of Capitalism without a pre-meditated weaning. Complete chaos! Khalid, and all of you other Palestinin supporters - you want peace - you must change your way of thinking. Stop your sons from trying to bring bombs into Israel, and there will be no reason to be in the terroritories (spelled this way on purpose). Stop the infiltrations, no need for the wall. You blame the symptom but not the cause. Create a viable economy with hope, then peace begins to become a chance, when it becomes a chance, then attacks start to drop, attacks drop then Israel has no reason to remain in quiet areas, Israel leaves, Palestinians get more peace and a better economy. To the destructive spiral that exists, there is also an anti-thesis constructive spiral that exist in parallel. You as Palestinians, and all groups, have the right to choose which one you want to follow. And for G-d sakes, stop blaming your ailments on the rest of the world!

The hidden agenda of Giladi is to entice the Palestinians to give up their refugee camps and move into permanent housing, lured by comfort." Gee, what a terrible idea. Imagine wanting a more comfortable life for the refugees. Dusgusting! Perish the thought!

"As per the refugees - Most left their homes under instructions given by Arab leaders." Joe, How many left their homes because of fear? How many were killed because they didn't leave? How many places like Deir Yassin were there? How many Israeli's live in homes confiscated after the original inhabitants fled? For whatever reason someone fled their home during a war doesn't change the fact that they should be allowed to return to there home after hostilities end. Geneva Convention provide for the right of return of displaced persons to their homes when hostilities end. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), adopted by the UN in 1948, states: "Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country". The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), Article 12(4) states: "No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country". The UN affirmed this right for Palestinians in General Assembly Resolution 194, December 1948. "...refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Government or authorities responsible." Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Convention and these other conventions. So Joe, what's the reason that Israel doesn't follow them?

Roger, your claims are silly. The Arabs only sought to repulse aggression and recover the stolen land. It is as simple as that. This conflict will continue for a thousand years to come if Israel insists on imposing surrender on the Palestinians. Leave our land and leave us alone. Khalid

The West Bank is occupied land, Israel has no right to steal our land and import Russians and other people to live on land stolen and seized by force from poor Arab neighbors. Settlemetn building is an act of rape in broad daylight..period. Khalid

Sir Ronald "The Saviour" Whilst benevolence on grandeur scale as pro posed by Sir Ronald is commendable, it does not take in consideration the complexities of the internal power struggle which is surely still to take place between the various palestinian factions. The outcome of these will determine what kind of palestinian state there will be.

Your remarks are a bunch of BS. If the settlements are the cause of terror,why was there an Arab Israeli war both in 1948 and 1956? Why were there terrorist attacks long before 1967? Like the maching gun attack on an Israeli bus on May 17,1954 where 11 innocent people were killed.These murders happened 13 years before any occupation and years before any settlements.So you tell me Dutch since you seem to be a know it all what was the cause for this act of terror? What "root cause" caused terrorists to gun down 4 Israeli children outside a religious school on April 11,1956 11 years before any "occupation",or what caused the terrorists to gun down 5 Israeli workers in Sdom on October 4,1957,10 years before any so called "occupation"? I can tell you why. The reason why is because these terrorists hate Israel and want it destroyed and hate Jews and want them all dead. Sadly,nothing has changed all that much since then. That is the real reason why there is no peace in the middleast. People like you and others on here are the ones who blame the "real" victims.The "real" victims are the innocent civilians like the dozens of Israeli schoolchildren who were held hostage and slaughtered by PLO terrorists in Maalot.Or 1 year old Sinai Keinan and her grandmother who were killed by a suicide bomber in an icecream parlor three years ago.Or seven year old Oren Almog who lost his parents and siblings and who was blinded in a suicide bombing in a restaurant two years ago.These and countless innocent Arab civilians who were tragically killed and injured in Israeli counterterror raids are the real victims of the Arab Israeli war.Not the terrorists and their supporters.

This is the formal PLO policy - Palestine is one, undeperable territory. This is like saying 'lets make the Jews become a minority, and then we will create such a situation for them that would want to leave 'voluntarily'. The one state approach is at the core of the refusal to accept the right of Jews to their own state. Why is it so hard to simply let the Jews be independant in their own homeland? - Why so much energy is spent on anihilating Israel? Why can't you just let us be?

The establishment of a ?binational state? in the Land of Israel has been a political bogyman for Jews in Israel even before 1948. It was a slogan in the manifesto of Israeli Marxists, a small Jewish minority whose ideology rejected Jewish religion and Jewish nationality, yet accepted Jewish culture and the Hebrew language. Consequently, most other Israelis considered the term ?binational state? a dirty word. However, the State of Israel included some 20% non-Jews from its very beginnings, and this percentage has remained virtually constant since then. The Arab citizens of Israel have enjoyed political freedom from day one, and many of them elect Arab representatives to the Knesset. The standard of living of Arab Israelis is substantially higher that that of Arabs masses in any Islamic country and therefore they prefer to live in Israel. In fact, Israel is already today a binational state very much like Canada or Belgium. Arabic is an official language and the Israeli government supports separate Arab schools and Islamic religious institutions. Israel also respects Islamic religious laws in marital and family affairs. Ironically, the Muslims in Um El-Fahem, the largest all Arab community inside the 1949 temporary boundary, who violently protested Sharon?s visit to the Temple Mount (September 28, 2000), touting Arafat?s new uprising against Israel, demonstrated protesting the suggestion of being annexed to the PA. They seems to prefer to remain citizens of the Jewish ?oppressive? ?Apartheid state? than become subjects of an Islamic theocratic tyranny. Your Suggestion Im sorry to say is stale we beat you to it already

Dear Yaakov, I absolutely agree with you. Since some years I am also struggling for this ideal. There is an international organisation which was created two years ago in Switzerland for this purpose. Its name is: Association for one Democratic State in Palestine/Israel: http://www.one-democratic-state.org. It has bylaws in different languages written by its founder, a Palestinian lawyer. You will call this state Palisrael, or United States of Ibrahim/Avraham. Others may call it Canaan, etc... Whatever is the name, the important is to save the future of our children and our region from destruction. Let us, Jews, and non-Jews, unite. I don't like to divide the tent of Abraham I don't like to divide Jerusalem I don't like to divide our motherland I don't like to maintain refugees in camps I don't like to keep Emmaus/Imwas (Canada Park) destroyed. Let us rebuild it. I hope that among those discussing in this website there will be persons who can form a political party to run a general election in Palestine/Israel for one parliament and one government. As we don't have financial means, let us use all the opportunities that Israeli websites offer us. Besides Haaretz, there is also http://www.ynetnews.com that I use frequently. Join us. I would like here to thank Haaretz for allowing these discussions.

One again the fantasies are flying around. Before one can address the dreams one has to look at reality: 1. The Arab states initiated multiple wars against the Jewish state and despite all rhetoric they have never given up their primary objective - the destruction of Israel 2. The Arab states occupy 99.9% of the Middle Eastern landmass while Israel is just .1%. Yet, even that tiny strip of land is too much for the Arabs to take. Considering that Israel is 20% Arab and the prime Israeli real estate is owned by the Greek Orthodox church which is mainly Palestinian Arab the Jews hardly own 80% of the 0.1% of the Middle East. 3. The Arab states are floating on oil while the Jewish state is practically oil free. 4. Israel is an advanced, industrial, modern state while the Arab states are dictatorial and backward. 5. The Palestinian Arabs is the extension of the Greater Arab world are trying to get into tiny Israel utilizing every loophole the Israeli democracy offers. Accoriding to some data 150K Palestinian Arabs have moved to Israel legally in the last 12 years and 150K Palestinian Arabs have settled in Israel illegally. No Jews have moved to any sovereign Arab state either legally or illegally. 6. A bi-national state would definitely drive the Jews out of the Middle East. Why should productive Jews pay high taxes for those who are interested in welfare maintaining 4 wives and 20 kids. 7. The Palestinian Authority is based on corruption and terror. It is not much different from Somalia, Sudan and other Arab states. The list of facts can go on and on. The only solution for the Jews is a divorce from the Arabs who do not wish the Jews well. Considering that 20% of Israel is already Arab a total divorce is not possible but a partial divorce is. There are 22 Arab states. Considering the Jewish history there must be a Jewish state. The Israeli government must know that to attract the Jews from the Diaspora Israel should be a Jewish state. Why in the world would we leave the USA or Canada to come to state that is not fully Jewish or only partially Jewish?

'obviously you were forgetting the Nakba.' I didn't. I just define it diferently. The real Nakba is the refusal to the Palestinians to adopt resolution 181, and their decision to fight Jews to prevent the establishment of Israel based on that resolution. Any Palestinian, who genuinly accept the two state solution, can't morn the establishmnt of Israel (because ut is one of the two states solution he accepts). His problem his with the absence of Palestine. The reason Palestine does not exist is because the Palestinains chose, out of their own free will, not to establish Palestine. As per the refugees - Most left their homes under instructions given by Arab leaders. If there was no aggression against Israel, There would be no Arab call for the Palestinians to leave their homes. Those who did leave following battles, wouldn't have to leave if there was no battle. Launching the battle against the Jews, in defiance of UN resolution 181, is the Nakba. the way the Palestinians mark it for decades, represents nothing but denial of reponsibility, running away from accountability. This represents the trend of blaming Israel for everything. Not True. The sooner Palestinians realise it, the better.

'I think the remedy for you would be to live with Khalid for 3 weeks in Hebron posing as Arab so you can see who nasty some of your people are.' Suppose tomorrow all Israeli turn angels. Suppose all erected olive trees are back; Suppose all demolished houses are back to their places; Suppose all road blocks are taken away....Will the Hamas scrap its covenant? I don't think so. Prove me wrong. There is clear cause and reaction here: Arab aggression - Israeli response. End Arab aggression -, no need for Israeli response. 'Noone can deny huge mistakes made by the Palestinians and Arab World over the years.' Have you ever heard a Palestinian leader say: 'We were wrong to start the war against a Jews in Nov. 30th, 1947? - Have you ever hear a Palestinian say that it was wrong not to establish Palestine before 197? - Or to reject 242 until 1993? - I didn't. Can you prove me wrons? 'the Palestinians willing to build a state on 22% of historic Palestine ....' I believe we discussed this notion of 'historc Palestine'. There is nothing in this expresion that suggests there was some sort of Palestinian independence in the region known as Palestine, and that Israel took 78% of it. 'It is the likes of you and your radical brothers that have a sickness that must be dealt with...'. If unwilling to accept a constant threat to my life, and the lives of my dear ones, only because I bear a passport that reads 'State os Israel' is considered by you and your brothers to be radical, then yesa. I am radical.

Joey, Noone can deny huge mistakes made by the Palestinians and Arab World over the years. But now, with the Arab World offering full peace and recognition and friendly relations with Israel, the Palestinians willing to build a state on 22% of historic Palestine .... .... It is the likes of you and your radical brothers that have a sickness that must be dealt with...it is called pathelogical denial and complete inability recognize your own bad deeds. I think the remedy for you would be to live with Khalid for 3 weeks in Hebron posing as Arab so you can see who nasty some of your people are. Shalom.

The terms of debate in this discussion are so skewed. what started as a discussion about Jewish efforts at financing separate economic development for Palestinians has degenerated into the usual finger pointing, historical debates, and moral deconstruction. Are there really only 3 choices on the table: 1) Israel expels Palestinians 2) Arabs drive out the Jews 3) Two states I don't think so. There is a 4th choice..... And i'll keep on repeating this til i am blue in the face... The fight over the tiny sliver of land called either "Israel" or "Palestine," but which I call Palesrael is really a fight for regional integration and economic development on one side, or division and political/economic/military dependence on the US/EU. The tiny sliver of land I encourage everyone here to call "Palesrael" is THE land bridge which links together two great continents. Historically, canals, bridges, transcontinental highways, railroads, telegraphs have transformed the world. Although I am Jewish I have eyes and can see that Jews cannot live in peace in the region unless we rediscover that we are fundamentally citizens of the Middle East and renounce our European-ness, our American-ness, etc. If we do so, we will have amazing opportunities to participate in the rebuilding of the Middle East. The alternative is not attractive for anyone. This financing plan of separate reconstruction is unlikely to go very far. there is already insufficient economic opportunities in the Middle East to suffer the further division of them. Neither Palestinians nor Zionists are going to give up on claiming all the land. And as Zionists are vastly outnumbered even amongst Jews, we are growing weary with this experiment. Sure, Israel can try to do a Masada or Samson Maneuver and bring down civilization by deploying its nukes, but that will be the final chapter of Jewish life in the Middle East, and the status of Jews worldwide will be indescribable. But We can also decide to accept our Semetic-ness, and embrace a PanSemitism. Very few Palestinians currently are hardcore Islamists, although the more repressive Israel is, the more that will change. Most do not want to drive all Jews out of Israel, they merely want a binational state with no special privileges for Jews and the ability of the refugees to come back. This is what I want too. I will be happier living in a modern secular binational state than in this current state of militarized limbo and denial and Prozac. The longer this is postponed, the less secular, the less binational it will be. The slogans for both peoples are simple: One Person, One Vote, One State - Palesrael Return for all. Let us take our collective seats at the House of Representatives and Senate of a United States of Ibrahim/Avraham.

the only problem with your argument is that you convieniently left out the fact that there were many jews in palestine prior to Herzl's dream...When you write half truths, it only adds anger to any argument

"settlements the source of terror"? Terror preceded these "settlements" by a few decades.

"I say let the americans deal with this issue like they did in Iraq, " - An IDF Soldier The United States cannot afford another occupation at this time. Our brilliant 'success' in Iraq has left us pinned down, over extended, with recruitment far below replacement levels, a collapsing National Guard and Reserves, and a government in total denial asserting with every escallation of the insurgency that increasing violence is proof of 'light at the end of the tunnel'. In fact, Iraq has become such a fiasco that it ultimately might threaten Israel. At some point the US will no longer be able to finance the Iraq war with borrowed funds from China. At that point massive cuts in US spending will be mandated. Americans will quite correctly demand that cuts be where they harm Americans the least. Our major foreign foreign aid clients are Iraq, Israel and Egypt. Without US aid Israel will be hard put to afford the occupation of Palestine. Do you get my point?

obviously you were forgetting the Nakba.

"Funny, Israel always seems to think it knows what`s best for Palestinians" Especially funny since Israel still has not figured out what is best for Israel. The brilliant success of the Six Day War left Israel something it had never intended to be, and no democracy can easily accomodate. Israel became an occupying power, something which sapped it of moral authority both at home and abroad, and left it with the problem of oppressing another people.

how does it feel then to do collective punishment?What have you been told Palestinian ideology is? What is the Israeli ideology?How does it feel to make actions as yours in Biilin(non-violent demonstration using teargas, shooting people)?how does it feels to make families homeless?Good? Only a few questions.

"The hidden agenda of Giladi is to entice the Palestinians to give up their refugee camps and move into permanent housing, lured by comfort." People with something to lose, are far more tractable than those whom have nothing to lose.

There goes Joe again blaming everyone except the over 200 illegal settlements as the source of Palestinian terror. Daily the settlements rob the Palestinian people of their land, natural resources and their hopes for a Palestinian State. In addition, the settlements keep tthe Palestinian under an oppressive military situation and abject poverty. They ought to be condemned by all fair minded people and evacuated too. They will never be accept as legitimate. He knows this and blames Khalid. Instead, of taking responsibility. Sounds familiar? Dutch

thank you Raj to that short guide of Indian history. Tamil lonaguage rights eh? So that was the reason they shot the young Ghandi down, or did they blow him up. those Tamils sure get angry ove their language. or maybe it was because after funding the Tamil's in Sri Lanka, the Tamils felt that the Indians had stabbed them in the back when they invaded the north of the island. But what do I know. maybe things are not as simplistic as you like to make them. Odd though how the Sri Lankan's have had to face the terror of the Tamils who are actually from India? But let us get to the point. If India is willing to give up Kashmir, why don't they? what are they waiting for, maybe the death of thousands more people. Mayb they enjoy their army suffering numerous terrorist attacks, I doubt it. So make it easier on yourselves and just give it to the Pakistanis who will surely bring their convoluted form of democracy to the area. And we all know how happy the Pakistani's will be with Kashmir, they will certainly stop there, now that their Taliban boys in Afghanistan have benn somewhat subdued.

You miss the point completely: You have no right to visit Israel. You, like all other VISITORS, may obtain the privilege of entering my country for a visit. Israel has the absolute right to deny you (and anyone else for that matter) entry into its borders. Be truthful, you don't want to visit Israel, you want to feed off of it like a parasite, and destroy the host creature. I am a broken record: I have seen what Arabs do to pluralistic societies. I choose self-preservation over subjugation.

Who are you to tell America to fight who? I don't know if there's a misunderstanding, but those assault rifles your soldiers carry, those tanks, many of those conventional military weaponry, is AMERICAN. The Palestinian ideology is no different than any other conquered peoples. I mean, let's be honest, it's not as if the Palestinians woke up one day and decided let's fight Jews. No no no indeed. It's a migration and imperialism that Zionism introduced in Palestine that caused this conflict, which was supported by the British. I mean here in the GREAT U.S.A. we do have the right to bear arms, meaning if some thief, murderer, decides he'd like to try to overtake my house, it ain't happening without a fight. It's only natural to resist an occupation. Surely, it's wrong when innocent civilians are sacrificial lambs as we see with Palestinian and Israeli civilians, but it is political Zionism that has shaped the Palestinian mentality. You see prior to Zionism, the Palestinians were communal, agricultural easy going people. Their main concern was being self-sufficient and taking care of their families and communities. THANK HERZL for changing all that. THE BLAME IS NOT THE PALESTINIANS. P.S. Mr Almighty IDF soldier big woo hoo. The draft went out ages ago. That's why those such as myself volunteered, we weren't forced to serve such as you have. AGAIN, DO NOT IMPOSE ON THE U.S.A. Just keep playing victim to receive billions in aid lol. Shalom :)

'Israel brought suicide bombings upon her self.' Don't tell me you believe this nonsense. Between 1967-1977, it was the explicit policy of Israel NOT to settle in the midst of Arab populated areas. So, did the Palestinians accept this policy as a sign of Israel's willingness to settle? - No! The PLO issued the 'Ten Point Plan', aimed at Israel's destruction. This is the reason why the Israel right wing gained power. Your aggression against Israel aimed at its destruction forced Israel to hold the grip on its would be destroyers, which ended up also with settlements. It is your aggression that made the right wing become strong, and settle. Admit your mistake, pay the price, and go on with your lives. 'The aggrandizement of the settlements left no alternative for the Palestinians except violence.' It's your lousy excuse, Khalid, not the reason for terrorism. If our settlement is the reason for the terror, then why was the PLO established in 1964? - Why the bus in Ma'ale Akrabim was gunned down in 1954, murdering 11 innocents? - Terror is one of your aggressive tools to kill us all. If not for the IDF and lack of means at your side to achieve this, we would all be slaughtered long time ago. Am I wrong?

'So the Palestinian Israeli Conflict is about stopping terror against Jews....It is about nothing else..' Palestinian Israeli Conflict is about ending the existetial strtuggle in nature that the Palestinian run against Israel since 1947. All the rest is consequential, Ibrahim. Once the Arabs admit that, half of solving the problem is done. Palestinians are reluctant to admit that, and focus on the symptoms. Can't cure this way a sick body.

You obviously believe in religious freedom. Do you remember the days when Israelis were not allowed to visit the Western Wall - their holiest place in the enitire world?? Did you object then? I mean come on, what is this double standard?

The Palestinians had their own airport - in Gaza. They you lynched 2 IDF soldiers who lost their way and came to a Palestinains police station for directions. You guys went mad and tore them to bits, proudly showing your bloodied hands to the world. That was the start, and Israel, instead of targeting people. targeted your institutions - one was the ariport. Sorry. The guys who were lynched will nver be able to travel again either, or study at university.

The Intifada is a war. It has managed to murder 1000 Israelis. May not sound many to you, but is terrible for us. All the hardships you desscribe above would not be in place if the Palestinains were able to negotiate without committing terror at the same time. All could be settled if things were done in good faith. So what did your dad tell you? Did he tell you that the fisrt Intifada started in 1988 and that Arafat arrived in 1994 and that was the beginning of the end?

During the Oslo era, Israeli continued unabated settlement building and repression of the Palestinains. The aggrandizement of the settlemetns left no alternative for the Palestinians except violence. Israel brought suicide bombings upon her self. Khalid

Joe, So the Palestinian Israeli Conflict is about stopping terror against Jews....It is about nothing else.. Buddy, once peace breaks out, I hope Israel can contain the likes of you, pathelogically unable to see any of your own wrongdoings... Shalom- Ibrahim

So, fox, everybody who condemns settler savagery and brutality is naive...I am sure you would call Moses and the Prophets Naive were they appear and denounce these criminal thugs who have hijacked Judaism and the Jewish people. Khalid

My father waits on the check point between hebron where his land is and bethlehem where he lives. Who said anything about selling inside Israel???????/ I just don't understand your logic, when you try to divert the attention of the check point to suggesting alternative places for my father to sell his grapes. please Don't send me back a response suggesting that the check points are there to catch the suicide bombers, because i have already said that i mean the checkpoints which cut through the west bank and are illigally there. If the settlements were not built there will be NO need to have any check point in the west bank. By the way, you are just missing the best grapes of the world, it is the tastiest. But hey, you wanted my father to sell it somewhere else, so i guess you will never taste it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Owe I just loved this statement, "No other reason than divinity that the Palestinians have SURVIVED over 57 years." The palistinians have survived only because of the goodwill of the Israeli's. What about the 2000 years that the jews have survived? LOL, we sound like little children. I am a combat soldiers and I have seen personally the things that so called "Palestinian Civilians" do. I have personally arrested several palestinian civilians on the sole basis that we only found stocks of weapons and known terrorists hiding in their house. No most of them have no prior record, but they are supporting people who shoot anyone in the back that they can get at. What kind of war is that? Its the palestinian ideology that must be fought against before any land or power can be given to people who don't even know what its like not to have an enemy. I say let the americans deal with this issue like they did in Iraq, personally it is below me and i don't want to endanger my life to fight for freedom of a people who don't even want it.

Ravi since you have joined this little merry band of posters to this site, you have spoken in very naive terms. things like "completely end the occupation and stop stealing their water". then we can ignore them. where does this simplistic conception of life come from. Do you really believe that geo-politics is so easy. that this is just between us and them. Never forget for a minute that we are facing off against BIG OIL, THE BIGGEST OIL MERCHANTS, not just the Russians, the Religous Left, a billion and a half biased Arabs, this is a game that evryone wants to take a turn at bat. I personally think that if it were just up to us and the Palestinians that things would have gone alot smoother, but the Brits from the beginning applied their great wisdom and rightousness to the situation and left it a mess. Sure the map has to be withdrawn, and the issue of water, you have taken to this one like a fish. Regarding water I hear alot of blah blah blah, falcities, realities and conjecture, not being a water specialist myself I cannot tell you for sure what is going on there. And from my experience It is not beyond the people who send their children out to blow themselves up, also to make up stories. but all that aside, do you really believe that if we ended occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, that that would be the end and we could all live happily ever-after. Well, since it is my ass on the line I at this time am not willing to put all my trust in simplicities. So if you guys give back Kashmir, will this end all hostilities between India and Pakistan? Today the Pakistanis claim that Kashmir is dominated by Moslems, well there are many other provinces in India that have Moslem majorities, will they to seek independence from India. And what about those tamils, they already killed one of your Ghandi clan, what about them? So far you have run scared and made no attempt to answer my questions, don't be frightened just answer please.

'We`ve had periods of time during Oslo when the PA was doing a fine job keeping terror at non-existent levels.' Never during Oslo was there calm. Suicide bombing started the very year when the PA was established, 1994, and grew to unbearable propoprtion in late 1995-1996. Terror was the reason why Labor lost the 1996 elections and Netanyahu became PM. 'PA was doing a fine keeping terror at.... levels..'. Terrorism should not be tolerated at any level. The commitment of the PA was to dimantle terror organization. They failed to do that. 'but you can`t violate the laws of Physics...'. I agree. One of Newton's laws states: Every action causes an oposite and equal reaction. That's why Israel is back to Palestinian citied, following the 2000 premeditated Palestinian escalation. Whe the Palestinians run an organized campaign to mass murder as many inocent Israelis as possible, what do they expect? - That we would hand over our necks so that they can cut'm off?? 'I can`t sit here and glorify violence like you do....' I glorify violence??? - What are you talking about?? - I respect you, Ibrahim. This comment makes me think about it.. 'Don`t waste our time with Arab rejectionism in 1948 or 1967. Don`t justify today`s policy based on that.' Ibrahim - We are 'virtual doctors' here. We have at our hands this very ill 'patient' called the Middle East. In order for us to cure this patient we can't ignore the history of that patient. Could you imagine a situation in which a real doctor says something like: 'I am not interested to know the history of that ill patient?' Diagnosys is the key. If we diagnose the illness the wrong way, we implement the wrong medical treatment, and the patient will remain ill. Our dispute is on the diagnosys. You, along with other, diagnose the occupation, settlements, security fence, etc., to be the source of the illness. My diagnisys is different. I maintain that the Arab aggresion against Israel aimed at its destruction is the illness. The rest - refugees, occupation, settlements, fence - all are the symptoms of the illness. If we focus on the symptoms, Ibrahim, it would be like we deal with the fever of a cancer patient, but do nothing to tackle the cancer. Of course he will not be cured. Same goes in the Middle East. The cancer is the Arab aggression. Cure this aggression, and the Middle East is on the right track to recovery.

ravi.....good to know we agree but the following concerns me..... i'm assuming you are a hindu.....the hindus in the west are very similar to the jews,,,hard working, peaceful etc Jews and hindus get on great...as do both sets with the Sikhs...no probs...cool as anything. Yet, we all have problems with the muslims....we all feel threatened by the muslims....we all get on with buddhists and now the christians.....but there is a sizeable percentage of the muslim population that we feel (righly imo) hate us. Now, if India with all her strengths and resources, with all her brilliant scientists etc and a population of say 1billion people still has Pakistan giving her a hard time ....what hope is there for the Arabs ever leaving the Jews alone. My friend, the problem lies not with the Jews/Christians or Hindus....unfortunately Islam or rather parts of it is going through a very aggressive stage and the world is in for a lot of turbulence. We all have problems coming our way.

'Without a total redraw of Israel behind the pre-agression lines of june 1967 and an "end to the occupation that started in 1967" there will be no two state solution. Had the arabs not started this war of aggression Israel would not have gained the territories. However, not even the UN has told Israel to withdraw to these lines so don't expect Israel to do this. As for your claim this will prevent a 2 state sollution I fail to see how you can come to this conclusion. Show me a map that shows how this will create 'bantustans'. 'Thus a "Greater Israel" will put the Jews in a minority position.' This notion of a 'greater Israel' is a figmant of the anti-semites imagination. Israel is withdrawing from Gaza, withdrew from Lebanon and the Sinai and has constantly expressed willingness to negotiate over how much to hand over of the 'west bank'. please explain how this is expanding into 'greater Israel'. As far as minority population goes this is based on baseless scare tactics put forward by the Israeli left and lapped up by the ignorant media and their ignorant sheep-like followers. Wether ther'es 3 million palestinians on 50 million palestinians its irrelevent. They are NOT Israeli citizens, if we believe them they do not want to be Israeli citizens so they will never have voting rights in Israel. So what's the relevence? Its like saying there are over 100 million arabs in the Middle East, the Jews are the minority. So? Does this negate the Jews' control over their own state and destiny? As for your:"The palestinians will soon be caged out - put in quarantine if you like - in Gaza, and part of the `west bank`." reminds me of the famous headline in an English newspaper(back in 1890`s or something)' This is pretty consistent with your lack of knowledge in this conflict. You don't even know what you are talking about do you? 'With more Jews choosing to migrate to Germany rather than Israel and over a million "Israelis" living outside of Israel' Where do you get this figure from and what is the relevence? 'the Jews are already a minority in the Holy Land.' Strange that. Maybe your maths is as strong as your history but to put the record staright Israel is 80% JEWISH. Even you can do the maths here. Perhaps? 'Jews in the Diaspora have voted with their feet and considering that still today only around 20% of Israeli Jews were born in Israel(incl annexed and occupied territories)you do the math Jingles.' Please spare me this drivel. Israel is a fairly new state that actively seeks immigrants. Its like saying after 60 years that the US was doomed for the same reasons. It`s high time for even the right wingers to get the picture. 60% of the Palestinians are under the age of 14 and soon they will marry and get kids. Let`s hope these kids do NOT have to grow up under foreign occupation.' Another irrelevant point but don't worry, once the security barrier has been completed the onlu occupation the palestinians will suffer under is that of the PA.

When i have my own state believe me that i don't ever want to step in your country if it is full of peole like you, who feeds on hate towards Arab. But i will welcome all my Isaraeli frieds i know who will be ashamed to call theirselves you country men. And when you tell you write me this responce, you can't blame the arabs not allowing Israeli's to enter their borders, but i bet you did not even think of that???????/ If you deny me the right to go visit the Church of the holy Sepulture, I am sure that you will have the whole Christian world knocking on your door. Then you can tell them that i have no inherreted right to pray there??????

The Jordanians simply don't want to allow the Palestinians to get to Jordan so as not repeat the 1948 and 1967. When a arround 800.000 Palestinians took refuge in surrounding arab countries and they are still living there in camps untill now. So now you realize that what they are doing is acctually bad for Israel???????????????????????? The issue of the right to return is a burdon to Israel because they know that non of the arab countries are doing anything to integrate the Palestinian and make them forget the dream that they still have. If you are suggesting that the jordanians are afraid of a Palestinian occupation of their land, then you could not be any more wrong about that, Because out of the whole world most Palestinians will not want to go to live in Jordan. When the Palestinians are allowed to have their own airport from which they can travel to the whole world. Nobody can blame Israel for not allowing Palestinians to travel through Tel Aviv. If you keep such issue in mind, you will be able reach peace with Palestinians overnight.

If the wall stops you from selling your fruit in Israel,why can't you sell it in Jordan or Egypt

The Palestinians are already trying to work on peace, but they are not taken seriously by Israel and the whole world. What is Israel doing to indicate to the Palestiniand that is want to talk seriously about peace, Stopping to expand the settlements, or allowing Palestinians to pomp their own underground water?????? to go to their fields without having to wait hours untill some soldier opens a gate for 15 minutes or to fish freely?????????Does a farmer demand his cows to produce milk if he cuts off the waterpipe leading to the stables???????? or does he grow wheat without any water??????? The intifada is not a war, because the Palesinians military power when compared to Israel's is like a fly to an elephant. The intifada's started because the Palestinians revolted against opression by Israel. If Israel was a bit more clever, it could have prevented the Palestinians from rising up. and i know that, because my father always tells us how they lived between 1967 and 1988. by the way "Intifada" in arabic means uprising. And only from it's name, you can't call it a war.

yes...your artificial nationality....born what 40 odd years ago.....what is the oldest recorded reference to any arabs in the region as palestinians ?

Yan, there are certain arguments and views that just don't merit a serious engagement. I feel sorry for responding to you in the first place. I probably gave you more than you deserve of my attention. Khalid

only showing what a phony he is....agree 100% if somebody converst according to halacha then he is a jew ...no question about it people need to know that sullivan is a phony...he uses his newly acquired "jewish heart" to encourage hatred against the jews and israel in the hearts of others.

give the palestinians their state , completely end the occupation, and stop stealing their water. thereafter israel is free to ignore this new state to whatever extent it wants.it then becomes no one elses business

i am in complete agreement with you with regard to the white colonisers of the americas, australia and new zeland. though you have to admit the newzelanders have made great efforts to rectify the injustices of the past. thats hardly true of the rest, particularly the australians and americans.

I sympathise with your predicament, but would like you to consider and answer the floowing very honestly. Why do you have trouble flying through Jordan? Is that Israel's fault? Why is there no outcry about that - or do you think this is justified? I know many Israelis who fly through Jordan to Thailand, India, etc. Perhpas the Jordanians too are wary of Palestinians. Is this okay? Do they have any reason to fear you?

ure absolutely right rich , if they were 1.5 billion jews there would have been no problem for israel. but sadly for israel they are not 1.5 billion jews in the world. thats why it is imperitive for israel to find a solution to this problem, because time, and numbers, are not on their side. ive made this exact point many times before in this forum

If hes a convert then ...He is Jewish and you shouldn`t deride him for this and hes no less Jewish than me or you... (It is a little strange he should then after converting become a KAPO Jew...but perhaps hes tring to change our demographics) I do not belive for a second that Leon Rosgarten is a Jew as I do not believe that he is a university professor let alone ever attended a university.

It seems to me that Khalid`s posts can be summarized as follows.. It seemed to me that Khalid`s hidden desire is to become Israeli (not a Jew, mind you, but a citizen of Israel)---and enjoy all the benefits it entails, i.e a Government press card, travel abroad, and free movement within Israel, and so I aksed him if it is indeed the case. Here is Khalid`s response: "... are you a Zionist fanatic, a friend of the settlers to ask such a provocative questions..Khalid". Seems to me that I have hit a raw nerve. Not surprising since Khalid`s postings always revolve around "one-state solution". What they are about most likely, is Khalid`s desire to enjoy daily freedoms of Israeli citizens (Jews & Arabs and everything in between)---yet not being able to do anything to make those things a reality in Palestine. Khalid most likely realizes that building a brighter future in Palestine is hopeless---with all Islamic facism, murder-bent terrorist groups, corruption, cronyism and lack of societal personal freedoms that are present in Palestine. Therefore, he dreams of better life, and the only better life that is around is life in Israel----henceforth his dreams of "one-state" . In short, Khalids wants to be Israeli to have a better life. As such all of his posting are nothing but expressions of envy of Israel.

Leave Jewish issues to US...OK?

over a million "Israelis" living outside of Israel.. Really? source? Why the inverted commas....Last time I checked there was over 7 Million of us living outside Israel..(13 million in all ) Your hate is obvious...isn`t there some other way for you to express your anti semitism?

What most "Palestinians" fail to understand is that they do not have an inherent right to travel to or through Israel. Once your state is established, the border with my country, Israel, will be closed to you and all Palestinians. There is no inherent right for Palestinians to work in Israel. The two states will live in a state of beniegn indifference. The viability of your artificial state -- much like your artifical nationality -- will rest on your Arab brothers, not on the largesse of Israelis.

Are you talking about the white colonisers of Canada ? Or the fundamental injustice re the massive taking of land and other property from indigenous "American" Indian individuals and their families. The white man now called for example a Texan may well "deserve" a Texas homeland, but what did the innocent "American" Indians do to deserve their losses? Perhaps you can explain why the white texan invader has more right to texas than the jews to israel..Israel is rich with thousands of years of jewish history.... Or BRITISH COLUMBIA, is that a native name for the area? Educate us on this one. Or the Irish "Americans" supporting the existence of the other white colonisers at the expense of the natives forced to live in reservations under the apartheid system. BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL WHITE CHRISTIAN SETTLERs in a country that is not their own, where Indians had lived peacefully before your ancestors arrived with guns and massacred them, stole their land, cut down their trees. You graciously allowed them reservations.....in your apartheid state. Oh Irish sensation....What is your definition of ?Colonisers?, ?Colonial? etc ? You see, based on my definition, Canada / USA / Australia / New Zealand / S.American Countries etc are all true examples of colonial entities where foreign invaders with no connection to the land displaced the natives.

sorry that Israel won the wars that the arabs started in 48, 56, 67, 73 as well as Intifadah 1 and 2 (oh sorry, int. #2 is not over yet) Now that Israel is sorry for wining the wars, can we work on peace?

i have read most of these posts....although not all....all i get from you Khalid are a lot of big words with little substance. You are obviously an educated person....maybe you should try to educate your people on love rather than hate...i know its not easy...but you can do it !!

it is not the "occupation" that has turned 90% of opinion against Israel.... it is the fact that there are 1.5 billion muslims, left wing chattering classes in europe etc if it was the "occupation" then why is 90% of the world not jumping up and down ref the Chinese occupation of Tibet, Russia's occupation of Chechnya, Morroco's occupation of the Western Sahara etc Ravi....if there were 1.5 billion Jews....nobody would be talking about the "occupation" of Judea/Samaria (West Bank)

Yaakov "the jew" Sullivan..........LOL brilliant...spread the word about this fraudster who converted to Judaism and now wears the Jewish heart on his sleeve.

lol, so the jews a semitic people speaking hebrew a ME language with judaism a ME religion and with a disntict recorded history older than any of their arab neighbours......are settlers in this land. how ? pls explain your logic

no wonder we have peace with Jordan and not with the palestinians....you are a light unto the nations....wish all palestianians (and some Isarels) could share your vision... I agree with you.

you find it apparently nice to accuse Yaacov he`s a convert, once he`s Christian, then convert to Judaism, I am only waiting for you to tell him he is a convert to Islam! Apparently it is a crime for many of you to be Messianc and converted to Judaism-apparently you don`t take this too serious neither. Apart also goyim may know and tell Jewish jokes(but maybe I have to convert to not appear to many Anti-Semitic). There are many Jewish jokes I absolutely love. My mother once had a Jewish b/f so she knows some(and from U.Avnery). However only because Yaacov Sullivan is a conscious Jew you are seeking constantly to offend him. hey, why don`t you try and talk more to each other(for once let this "he does not want. He lies." away) like me and Avram started to do!

You say that we are not in a cage because we can go eastwards. Well, i am going to tell you what the Palestinians have to go through to go to Palestine, and i am telling that out of experience because i have been the last time i went to the Netherlands for my study. As a student, when i attempted last time to cross the borders to go to the airtport in Amman, armed with my visa, ticket and student card I was turned back as i reached the jordian side of the border because they claimed that i did not have enough evidence that i will not stay in jordan forever. They told me that i had to go back and ask someone in Jordan "Family, with the same last name" so that they garantee to the Jordanian government that don't stay in Jordan. Since none of my family members are living in Jordan i had to beg some journalist with a lot of connections to try to get me this paper. One thing the readers arround the world might want to read, is that Israel does not allow any Palestinians to go to the tel Aviv to fly from there, all Palestinians have either to go to Jordan and face the same problems as me or try to cross the border to Eygpt, where the situation in no better than to cross to Jordan. So tell me again Chaneh, Israel is trying to try to prevent Palestinians from comig back to the Land by not allowing them to fly to Tel Aviv and the Jordanians are making it hard for the Palestinians to leave, tell me who is in a cage now. If you were caged, why do I every summer see all these israeli tourists coming to the town that i study at in Europe. How many Palestinians are there traveling each year to spend their summerabroad. I am investing my intelligence now to enlighten you and the world with what i have to go through to get to the university i study at in Europe, and hopefully this year it would be a bit easier.

"dont expect the moslems to accept blame" what blame? for your f16s, assasination, more-water-for-jews laws, jew-only-towns? jews-only-streets? and by the way, all of those laws were in place long before there was anything called hamas or Oslo, long before the first intifada? take blame for what? the holocoust? the inquisition?

Joe- We've had periods of time during Oslo when the PA was doing a fine job keeping terror at non-existent levels. You probably don't remember, because it seems the terror helps you justify Israel's refusal to discuss the final status of the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict. I don't expect you to see the contradiction, friend...but you can't violate the laws of Physics....you can't keep doing everything you can to create facts on the ground that make it impossible to create a Palestinian while at the same time demanding they stop resisting. It's quite simple. I deplore all violence, Hamas, IDF, you name it, I deplore it...I can't sit here and glorify violence like you do....Unfortunatly though, it is not lost on me that the settlement enterprise slowed down considerable since intifadda-2. Sadly, Israel has used lulls in violence to accellarate land theft and colony building. Don't waste our time with Arab rejectionism in 1948 or 1967. Don't justify today's policy based on that. Good luck in your attempts to understand. Ibrahim

YES ......If everything is true in the article ... Please go ahead with this plan , It is much better than anything on the Ground ....Good article ...nothing is Imbossible even the Palstine -Isreali conflict ...Nothing

Sorry but I see Israel does not listen to Swedish Anti Semites, does she. Some Palestinians may be indoctrinated, but you are not, or are you? Your hatred is a free choise of your own.

"there are far more Israelis who don`t recongize Paelstine than Palestinians who don`t recognize Isrel." Please Khalid. I don't think even you believe that. In the late 90's, when peace seemed possible the Israelis voted in a liberal government. Now, after Arafat's death, when peace again seems possible, the Palestinians vote to make Hamas the power broker.

it seems that all your problems are always Israels fault. Only a fool would believe this. As my good arab friend says....dont expect the moslems to accept blame....it is too foreign to them. I think he is correct

Khaled would hate to see any kind of cooperation or alliance with Israel - and to hell with how the Palestinains live or how such an alliance could be beneficial bot both peoples. WIthout the "struggle" - Khaled's existence would have no meaning. His pride will not allow him or his people to have a good life. He will lose his raison d'etre - so the suffering of his people in refugee camps is like oxygen to his blood. You and Arafat have a lot in common, Khaled.

I apologize - this post was sent by me, not Azzam ******************************************** Those poor children were rasied by your hate, inhumanity, injustice. they grew up on the sounds of your tanks, morning raids, assasinations. these palestinian kids are your handywork. Palestinian kids, like all kinds over the world, are raised by their parents (or should be). If it suits those paretns to raise their children to hate and aim for revenge as their main goal in life - that is their prerogative. Jews throughout centuries of persecution raised their children to respect and strive for education and exellence and not to avenge those who have, each and every generation, tried to harm the JEws with some form or another of violence and threat of annihilation. The choice of how to raise your children and what kind of furture they should expect is yours. Just like the Arab ghettous sprouting in Israel - where are the Arab ghettos in Israel - can you name one? "and the refugee camps full of poverty and despair. " - which could have been replaced by decent housing at any time between 1948-1967 or between 1994-2000. You guys sure received enough funds to do this a thousand times over.

Right, jingles, and what will be the result of your little prediction of you good guys living on this side of the wqall and the big bad guys on the other, caged in like animals? - Actually Yaakov this "caged like animals" is the worst kind of lie designed to incite hatred. Look at the map. The Palestinains in the West Bank are not b=obliged to look westward - they can look eastward to their friends in Jordan - go there for jobs, initiate bussiness alliances with the Jordanians or with any Arab country they wish. It is sctually Israel who is caged in - sounded by the sea on one side and hostile Arabs on most of its borders. Hasn't stopped Israel (either before or after 1967) from building and improving the lives of its people, doing medical research, being involved in all spheres of endeavor and contribution to the world and mankind in many spehres. WHy do people like you insist of finding every excuse undr the sun for all Palestinian failures and for their dismal goals and behaviour. You are not doing them any favors by backing this mindset. Friends of the Palestinians, instead of treating them as poor backward chidren who shold listen to those westerners who are there "to help them" - should be encouraging them to invest their intelligence, incentives and energies into productive endeavors that willultimately ehnace their own society, quality and standard of living and preparing for thier future as an independent country.

Those poor children were rasied by your hate, inhumanity, injustice. they grew up on the sounds of your tanks, morning raids, assasinations. these palestinian kids are your handywork. Palestinian kids, like all kinds over the world, are raised by their parents (or should be). If it suits those paretns to raise their children to hate and aim for revenge as their main goal in life - that is their prerogative. Jews throughout centuries of persecution raised their children to respect and strive for education and exellence and not to avenge those who have, each and every generation, tried to harm the JEws with some form or another of violence and threat of annihilation. The choice of how to raise your children and what kind of furture they should expect is yours. Just like the Arab ghettous sprouting in Israel - where are the Arab ghettos in Israel - can you name one? "and the refugee camps full of poverty and despair. " - which could have been replaced by decent housing at any time between 1948-1967 or between 1994-2000. You guys sure received enough funds to do this a thousand times over.

Without a total redraw of Israel behind the pre-agression lines of june 1967 and an "end to the occupation that started in 1967" there will be no two state solution. Thus a "Greater Israel" will put the Jews in a minority position. As for your:"The palestinians will soon be caged out - put in quarantine if you like - in Gaza, and part of the `west bank`." reminds me of the famous headline in an English newspaper(back in 1890's or something) when the channel traffic was posponed due to fogg ."The Continent Isolated". With more Jews choosing to migrate to Germany rather than Israel and over a million "Israelis" living outside of Israel, the Jews are already a minority in the Holy Land. Jews in the Diaspora have voted with their feet and considering that still today only around 20% of Israeli Jews were born in Israel(incl annexed and occupied territories)you do the math Jingles. It's high time for even the right wingers to get the picture. 60% of the Palestinians are under the age of 14 and soon they will marry and get kids. Let's hope these kids do NOT have to grow up under foreign occupation. Like their fathers and their fathers. No Bantusteins will do, only a truly viable and Independent State on all occupied territories will bring peace. Men shouldn't pass the buck to their children Jingles, men should solve the problems and allow for their children a better future. Give up the Lebensraum policies and make peace with your enemies, as you did with the Germans.

Dear Fox, It is pathetic that you need to draw false parallels to to support your government's occupation of another people. Firstly, Tamils are not being occupied in India. Tamil is one of the myriad languages in India, one of the 25odd scheduled languages. The Tamil speaking community is a vital part of the Indian body politic, is a majority in the state of Tamil Nadu where an ancient Tamil Kingdom existed for Millenia. It is trtue that the Tamils were upset in the 60s that the North Indian language - Hindi - was sought to be imposed on them. There were democratic demonstrations against this and the central Indian government amended the language rules - as a real democracy will do. This and other issues are at the heart of the Tamilian revolt in Sri Lanka. Trust you know the difference between India and Sri Lanka. There is no apartheid in India, no occupation of Tamil Land or any other land, there are no settlements, no confiscations of land, no stealing of water. The story with Kashmir is sadder but also very different from Israels occupation of Palestine. There is a popular revolt in the Kashmir Valley (only) where the populace does not want to remain within the Indian union. There has been heavy handed repression by the police force. The key difference between India and Israel lies in the fact that the Government of India wants to RETAIN BOTH THE LAND AND THE PEOPLE. In fact, Indians from other parts of India are not allowed to buy land in Kashmir and (this is the main difference), Kashmiris who fled India to Pakistan, can return to their ancesteral properties in Indian Kashmir and reclaim them. As stated again, Kashmiris are not second class citizens in India, there is no transplantaion of strangers within the midst of Kashmir. Kashmir did not come to India as a result of any conquest, it was a voluntary merger with the Indian Union by the King of Kashmir. And finally, I am really proud that inspite of Kashmir being the cradle of the Hindu religion, a place referred to our scriptures as the abode of the gods, the Indian Government has not taken recourse to religion and God to stake a claim.

if the palestinains are the victims then why do the PA under Abbas and the Egyptians have to spend so much time trying to get Hamas?IJ/Al Aksa etc to accept ceasefire agreements ? and why do these groups publicly seek Israels destruction what is it you choose not to understand

'If Israel doesn`t withdraw to the 1967 borders, Tel Aviv will one day become predominantly Palestinian, willy nilly, and Zionism will be a thing of the past. ' Not surprisingly your intake of reality is far from every body else's. The palestinians will soon be caged out - put in quarantine if you like - in Gaza, and part of the 'west bank'. There is no way that the Jews will become a minority in Israel but I am interested in seeing how you think this can be done. Israel won't ever withdraw to the '67 lines for good reason. 99% of Israelis know that even this won't end the palestinian desire for war as they will then murder Jews until Israel accepts the supposed 'right' of return. Infact, this is the ONLY way that Tel-Aviv will become predominantly Arab so be honest with us. You don't want a Jewish state do you?

'Well, I guess jingles has got the answers down pat. He`ll tell the palestinians what they can and cannot do and what they can and cannot have and they had better, by God, tow the line or they will pay.' Seems fair enough. They've been offered and turned down the hand of peace enough times. The time of negotiations have long passed and certainly this generation won't see any peace deal. Those putting forward this plan or this map to peace are dellusional and any peace proposal in the forseeable future will go down the same path as all those from Tenet to Mitchell to the Road Map. The best answer at present is disengagement. Not from Gaza - and this is where people miss the point. We are disengageing from the palestinians not from a piece of territory that we don't need and the majority of us don't want. 'Right, jingles, and what will be the result of your little prediction of you good guys living on this side of the wqall and the big bad guys on the other, caged in like animals? Well, they will huff and puff and blow your house down.' Unfortunately they - the ENTIRE arab world - had tried this for 50 years until they finaly realised they couldn't do this. An ill equiped people will certainly not be able to do this on their own and once they are caged out, where will the suicidal terrorists go? I trusted Rabin and Peres were leading us to peace but they were lying through their teeth to us. I trust Sharon is leading us to disengagement and ridding the palestinians from our lives. Hopefully once disengagement goes through he will send the Labour party packing and people like you can spend the rest of your lives thinking about what could have been.

"I do not need to remind you of dozens of Palestinian minors (some as young as 12) who acted as homicide bombers" Those poor children were rasied by your hate, inhumanity, injustice. they grew up on the sounds of your tanks, morning raids, assasinations. these palestinian kids are your handywork. Just like the Arab ghettous sprouting in Israel and the refugee camps full of poverty and despair. I am amazed at how you manage to extricate yourself from every fantastic act of cruelty and inhumanity you have perpertated and perpetuated for over half a century.

Yaakov Sullivan is apparently a convert to Judaism ....and now he OUT JEWS the rest of us ! Remember the Seinfeld program when his dentist converted to Judaism so he could tell Jewish jokes !

Leon Rosgarten=== I couldn't agree with you more. The Palestinian people shouldn't be lures by promises of comfort by some wealthy Zionists in London. Instead, they should continue to keep their eyes on the prize--the eviction of the illegal settlers from their homeland and their lawful Right of Return. They certainly have the moral high ground in this struggle and have won hearts and minds around the world. Why give in now? Stay on course with Palestinian steadfastness. Dutch

After the creation of Israel, the UNO invented UNRWA to help the Palestinian refugees. It was just a trick to avoid resolving their problem. Under the cover of charity, the UNO wanted to hide its crime. What Giladi is proposing goes in the same drection. Giladi: don't lose your time. Identify the real problem and then propose an effective solution for it. Don't invent a new trick. The problem: Israel destroyed more than 400 villages and expelled their inhabitants because they are not Jews. We, Jews, and our nieghbours the Palestinians are suffering from this problem. The solution: Create one democratic state with equal rights for all, including the right of the Palestinian refugees to return home. Uselss to give an asperine for a cancer: the cancer of the israeli apartheid laws. You have to heal the cancer by abolishing these laws.

Cloud-Cuckooland, Utopia, a New Middle East. Birds of a feather. Here's what we have. The best part of a half-million Palestinians in Lebanon with no political rights and left to their own devices, mostly in a parlous economic situation. Perhaps it'd be an idea to address this problem before, say, Osama or an acolyte, gets there first (assuming, see the Hariri killing, it hasn't already happened). Then, rather more generally, the lack of traction or attraction that the concept of a Jewish State has in the 'Arab world.' Not to mention said Jewish State that must at some time decide how... energetically, defending the numbers must be defended. With foreign guest-workers and THEIR coming generations also to be taken into consideration. Puts things into perspective, doesn't it? No wonder 'strategists' are turning their attention to 'terrorism', Iran, whoever. They are so much easier to discuss.

Indeed, Muslime terrorism hits everywhere - from Phillipines to Chechniya, from Thailand to Algeria, from Spain to the US. It is our way of life which is under attack.

are you serious? another ill-informed missionary style christian hates jews and attempts to justify it... naive, or stupid? its hard to tell either way these kinds of attitudes will never engender peace...remember the christians were crusaders and murdered muslims and jews alike in their quest for world domination....so convenient that the murderous christian can conveniently forget their own origins...and then deny history critique your own culture and leave the real debates to people who can create peace not war

Leon Rosgarten-- I couldn't agree with you more. The Palestinian people shouldn't be lures by promises of comfort by some wealthy Zionists in London. Instead, they should continue to keep their eyes on the prize--the eviction of the illegal settlers from their homeland and their lawful Right of Return. They most certainly have the moral high ground in this struggle and have won hearts and minds around the world. Why give up now? Why not continue their ordinary and peaceful struggle in the Refugee camps and fighting the good fight--so to speak. Dutch

Ravi you a Moslem or Hindu? I am not familiar with the city of Noida, so I won't comment on its situation. But I have heard many people and media outlets and the Pakistanis claim that if India would just give back Kashmir and the rest of western India to Pakistan all would be well. No more war, they would even give up their nuclear arsenal and then you guys could play cricket until you realize it ain't much of a sport. do you believe this, is this your line of thought to? Occupation, occupation! We are not the Brits in India, nor are we the Indians in Tamiland. The problems here did not begin in 1967. And as we all know, but few would dare to mention, we are all living on land that had been conquered and occupied by the boys from Mecca. so you guys give India bak to the Moguls and the Tamils and then we can see your righteousness and maybe even do the same.

T-Dog!! there are far more Israelis who don't recongize Paelstine than Palestinians who don't recognize Isrel. We will insist on reciprocity in every aspect. We will not give you a free recognition ..never. Khalid

Leon Rosgarten- I couldn't agree with you more. The Palestinian people shouldn't be lures by promises of comfort by some wealthy Zionists in London. Instead, they should continue to keep their eyes on the prize--the eviction of the illegal settlers from their homeland and their lawful Right of Return. They certainly have the moral high ground in this struggle and have won hearts and minds around the world. Why give up now? Why not fight the good fight that will bear the good fruit! Dutch

'Exactly when does Israel decide to start talking?' Israel wanted to talk in Nov. 29th, 1947; In May 14th, 1948; Between 1949-1967, prepared to accept peace within the then existing borders; Israel accepted 242 when it was adopted, 26 years BEFORE the Palestinians did; And in 1993, when the gracious Palestinians had kindly decided to accept resolution 242, Israel IMMEDIATELY was prepared to talk with the Palestinians. As in old the Westerner - 'If you mean to shoot - shoot, don't talk!', it is the other way around as well: If mean to talk - talk, don't shoot! Once the Palestinians do that, I promise you, peace will come fast. Will they? 'How many months without a suicide bombing or attempted bombing or a single attack on any Jew anywhere in the world' The reason why there is no successful attack for a long time, is not due to the terror organizations not trying or planning. It is thanks to IDF activity, the fence, and the fact that Hamas uses this break to build its power. Built it for what? - To kill innocent Israelis. No Hamas - No terrorism. No terrorism - No need for IDF activity. This is the basic truth.

'I`m sure it sounded great in Hebrew, but could you explain what it means?' As long as you understood my point, I am happy. Do you?

Unlike most of us who have no clue and keep fighting each other.

To Israelis, finely most of Americans understand what is going on in Israel. After 9/11 we see that your enemy is our anomie. Be strong, we will win this war.

roberto is 100% right about the occupation being the biggest problem for israel. dont forget how israel has turned 90% of world opinion against itself. eventually it is this moral pressure which will force israel to see the light,as in the case of apartheid south africa, it would be much better for israel to make a fair deal now, rather than being forced to do so at a later date.

Agreed. The Roadmap to Nowhere. A pathetic plan indeed. Bush claims to be so decisive and forceful and macho...but he comes up with a bullshit process-over-substance plan which leads exactly..... where? To a Palestinian State? What kind of state? Sharon's idea of a Palestinian State??? No thanks. Palestinians are quite paranoid and anxious about Israel's intentions for the final status...understandably so. If the Final Status were clearly defined up front, we might all be pleasantly surprised how quickly bridges of cooperation can be built between the two societies. It's all in their mutual interests.

Joe, It's kind of hard to fight "terrorists" when your police stations are being bombed, your roads are being torn apart by tanks, your police officers targetted....Israel was doing all it could to make sure the Palestinians had ZERO capability to provide any security at all....Or did I miss something...? Were you expecting the Palestinians to focus all their resources on security for Israelis while at the same time, your settlements exand AT AN ACCELLERATED RATE....and continue to expand until you decide those violent Palestinians (who don't love their children) have met all our conditions and have shown themselves worthy of peace.... Very unstable situation, as you can imagine......insurmountable contradictions...even if Ghandi himself were given the task. It is disengenuous for you to expect the Palestinians to provide security for your newly recruited settlers. But on a postive note: All that's needed is a political program where a final settlement is neogotiated and settled and its fair and just. We all know roughly what it looks like. Then, Hamas can easily be moderated on the political front and militias dismantled. Come on Joe, do your part! Exactly when does Israel decide to start talking? How many months without a suicide bombing or attempted bombing or a single attack on any Jew anywhere in the world - before the Palestinians can finally see what Israel has in mind for a final deal....?

any project to ease the grind of the palestinians daily life has to be welcomed.though it is ironical that the man who is the driving force behind the effort to help palestinians improve their lives is also building the wall. which world of illusion do giladi and the israeli nation live in?the occupation is the root cause. firmly state your intention to remove the occupation, every thingh else will inevitably fall into place.the end of the occupation is the foundation on which peace has to be built.without this foundation the house of peace is impossible to build.

Tity, in one of the posts you wrote about Israeli Arabs in the Army. You seemed to have some misconceptions. Here's some info for you regarding IDF & Israeli Arabs in the Israeli Army. http://www.answers.com/topic/israel-defense-forces

Tareq, you forgot that Palestinians claim the "right of return", which if implemented would be the end of Israel as a Jewish State. Also, Tareq - there's no ban on selling land to non-Jews in Israel - I'm sure you are aware of this as you are a resident of Jerusalem. There's however a ban on selling land to Jews in Jerusalem as well as even in Israel itself (that's according to one of the Cabinet members in PA). Now while me might debate how the second ban would be enforceable, the first one is very real - any Arab who sells land to Jews in Jerusalem is to be potentially murdered or harassed. Question you posed: False. Israel already has a secular majority & definitely a is a democratic state. Religion plays a smaller role every year. By the way, will the soon-to-be created Palestinian state have Shariah law in place ?

Sit down and take a breath. I don't understand what is a source of pessimism. Each 3d child borne today in Holland and France is a Moslem. There is statistic like this in practically all "old European countries". I don't think you have problem like this in Israel! Plus all European Jews would be squeeze up from their own countries and most of them ended up in Israel. Terror problem-so far, from military point of view the Jewish minds found solution for all problems that Terror put on the front of them in all 57 years. The completed fence would solve problem of suicide bombing. There is no argument about this. The only questions that need answers are control of communications and rockets/mortars attacks. The communication problem exists only outside of fence. Rockets/mortals attacks need to be responded in multiple ways: -extermination of terror leaders -use of UAV with weapons (I think you had very good results recently) -use of laser weapons that suppose to be on line in 2008. Please, do not underestimate yourself. Look on the country that you built and compare what your neubors did in the same time! Everything that Arabs tough they did screw up. Everything that Jewish mind of Israel tough became better and better and better. You are having something to be proud of and look forward too!

Joe, Please provide a current statement from the palestinian Authority that denies the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish State. Palestinians have recognised the State of Israel within certain borders since the mid `90`s.You may not believe that acceptance, you not trust it, but that is your problem, not the Palestinians. Tell me one Palestinian who doesn't insist on the so called Right Of Return. To say you accept Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state and demand a right of return ( a "right" in this case, not supported by history, precedent, or law)is a contradiction. It is talking out of both sides of your mouth, a double game. That is the Palestinians problem, not the Israelis, who truly understand the deception here. When the Palestinians accept a two state solution, the occupation will end.

Shimon says [quote] Becuase terrorists attack on both sides of the green line and just having checkpoints at the gree line would not save gush and other israeli cities from bloodthirsty terrorists [/quote] Precisely, this is my point, you just proved I'm right: the Israeli government needs to keep humiliating the Palestinian population by a mesh of checkpoints IN ORDER TO DEFEND THE WRONG SIDE OF THE GREEN LINE, THE SIDE THAT DOES NOT BELONG TO ISRAEL. Checkpoints in the heart of the Palestinian population are not protecting Israelis inside their legally recognized borders: they are protecting about 70 thousand settlers in the midst of this population, with the consequent humiliation of this population. Is this good for the Jewish People? Now, Alan: Thanks for praising my countymen. Yes, every country has the right to defend its citizens and its border, but if Mexico settled 200 thousand people in Texas or in Guatemala, and if these settlers controlled the lives of the locals ... then Mexico would face a lot of rage from Texans or Guatemalans. I know some posters may say that Mexico is already invading the USA with migrants, but the comparison is ludicrous: Mexican migrants are not in the USA protected by the Mexican army and do not take 30% of the water in Texas. So, let's keep the arguments to Israel/Palestine. Answering your question: Yes, I've been in the area. I lived 4 years in Israel and traveled frequently. Yes, I have Israeli close relatives who serve and have served in the IDF. If Israel would be serious about a negociated withdrawal to 1967 borders, plus minus some corrections and land swaps, Israel proper could be defended much more efficiently than now, since with all isolated settlements, the border is a very complicated fractal. Unfortunately, the Israeli government is not serious about such a settlement. They will learn it the hard way. More and more Israelis are understanding that a permanant border is more secure and is needed. More and more are understanding that such a border cannot be unilateral, but negociated with the Palestinians. Be prepared for a "traumatic" evacuation of more settlements after Gaza. Meanwhile, the vast majority of checkpoints are just recruitment centers for future terrorists. They are not necessary to protect Israel proper. Don't expect that one million people humiliated there every day to love us.

I think that first of all Israel and the Palestinians should start as a matter of urgency negotiating the Final Status rather than the so called Road Map which is really a road to nowhere. Once an agreement is reached the real battle will begin which is its implementation.It will take years to move populations around and build the infrastructure required but the politics of incitement,violence and atrocity propaganda on both sides must stop at once.They are simply a form of warfare and no matter what grievences Jews and Arabs have against each other we have to draw the line and start afresh.Moderate Jews and Arabs in Israel/Palestine and elsewhere should get together and replace the "Hasbara" s and current Arab propaganda with an incitement to peace and reconciliation.It's a long and tortuous way ahead but it should start with an agreement as soon as possible and not end with one...Do You agree?

-"Do you the the problem?? - Can`;y you compare between how the Palestinians VIOLATED the declation of Arafat??"- I'm sure it sounded great in Hebrew, but could you explain what it means?

'Admit it Joe. There`s nothing Palestinians can ever say that will make you happy.' As per what the Palestinians say, you are absolutely right. Seeing is believing with the Palestinians. As they refuse to respect their own signature on a document (re. the letter Johanes was so kind to share with us #89), their words are empty. Only deeds count. 'Palestine is for Palestinians. Israel is for Israelis.' I'll drink to that !! 'Israel will never have the peace it claims it wants so long as it continues stealing Palestinian land and subjugating (polite euphemism) Palestinian people.' You need a crash course on the reasons for the 1967 war, a war that was imposed on Israel.

'...Hmmmm, odd how the Israeli Police recently uncovered a plot by Jews to take down the Al Aksa Mosque...' You see, Ibrahim, you have nailed the difference between Israel and the Palestinians, and you didn't even notice. When Jews plot terror atacks, and the police knows about it, they arrest the guys, indict him, and if found guilty, they are sent to jail. When the Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel, no less, the PA refuses to disarm this organization even though it is committed to do so, and help those terrorists find shelter, get arms, etc. 'Peaceful coexistance based on a fair territorial comprimise...the 1967 borders with only minor modifications, a shared Jerusalem, and a fair deal on the refugees which doesn`t harm Israel`s delicate demographic balance.' Without a constant threat to the lives of innocents, a meaning negotiations can take place. Having negotiation in the morning and restaurant explosions in the evening will lead us nowhere, just as it did until now. Dismantle terrorism, and peace will be easily achieved.

'No.1 definition of territory is achieved through negtiations with Palestinians' I agree. It means that no side should take dictations. This includes pretend to have the right to impose on Israel return to the 1967 borders. We should negotiate a solution. 'No.2 Israels maintenance of Jewish character is achieved and maintianed thought DEMOCRATIC means' I agree. 'Many Jews will resort to violence if they realize, or suspect, Israel will transform to a secular democratic state through democratic means.' Israel IS a secular democratic state, so I am afraid I do not understand your question.

'Of course Palestinians have LONG ACCEPTED and agreed to respect the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state in peace and security...'. How long, if you may? 'Give us a break, Joe. Why would Palestinians accept Israel`s right to exist as a state for Jews ALL OVER PALESTINE?' My actual meaning, as I believe Khalid understood me well, was for him to define the borders of Israel he accepts.

'Palestinians are willing to negotiate with the State of Israel...' In parralel to terrorising its population. That double talk days are over. It's either peace talks, or terrorism. It's up for the Palestinians to decide. 'The PA is not Hamas...' So why does it allow it to operate freely, even though it operates contrary to the many commitments the nPA had given, contrary to the letter that Johanes Franzen was so kind to remind us of (#89), while this organization claims it rejects the basic right of Israel to exist? 'Abass is trying to co-opt them into the political process.' Abbas apeases Hamas, just like its predesessor did. Unles proven otherwise, Hamas was, and still is, the unofficial subcontractor for the dirty job. 'Israel will not discuss the refugee question.' Both refugee problems should be discussed - The Jews whe were expeled from the Arab countries, and the Palestinians, who were mostly instructed by the Arab countries to leave their homes. 'As for the rest, Palestinians agree to a 23% of the historic land.' Now this you really have to explain me 'historic land'? - What on earth is that? - It sounds as if priuor to the establishment of Israel there used to be a state called 'Palestine', and that when Israel was created, 78% of it was taken by her. Nonesense! - Some Roman pagan decides on 135AD to insult the Jewish rebels, changes the name of Jerusalem to Ilia Capitolina, changes the name of the land from Judea (the land of the Jews) to Palestine, and 1,900 years later people talk about 'historic Palestine, as if it has anything to do with the people who today call themselves Palestine. 'It insists on keeping the settlement blocs and working around them.' True. This is the price of aggression. The same reason for which Germany lost territories to Poland and Russia.

'The vast bulk of the Palestinian people, including myself, are willing and ready to recognize Israel as a democratic state that treats all its present citizens on equal footing regardless of religion and race, within the 1967 borders.' Thank you for answering, Khalid. As a follow up discussion, if I may, could please advice us on the following: Why didn't the Palestinians and indeed the rest of the Arab world, made ecognized Israel prior to the 1967 war? Put it another way - Why prior to the occupation wasn't Palestine established in the WB&G, with East Jerusalem as its capitel?

'The PLO COMMITS itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a PEACEFUL RESOLUTION of the conflict between the two sides and DECLARES that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be RESOLVED THROUGH NEGOTIATIONS. The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, FREE FROM VIOLENCE and all other acts which endanger peace and stability.' Do you the the problem?? - Can';y you compare between how the Palestinians VIOLATED the declation of Arafat??

Hey Danite, that was angry stuff. First (spoken in a deep rumbling bass voice) "I AM THE JUDGE OF SOULS". Well its a job, keeps me off the streets, not full time though, just part time, helps me get to the end of the month. I was actually given the job by the minister of soul himself James Brown...I feel good, like I knew that i would now...Owwww! So good....so good...I got you! and you got me. i believe that if you asked Yaakov about me being an arrogant settler type, he may differ. I am actually like you, a warm, loving, human being. "Now get off my land!" Owwww, I feel good, da da da da da da, like I knew that I would now.....

Has it ever occurred to anyone that NO NATION has been pampered as much as the so-called "Palestinians"? absolutely no nation has received so much international aid per capita, so many bona fide investments, so much bottomless NGO sympathy, and so much international attention in the form of money, as those "Palestinians". Why do we keep rewarding terror? Why should they stop terrorizing mankind if terror keeps getting them what they want -- i.e., attention and monetary rewards? Stop helping the "Palestinians" and start punishing them for turning our lives into hell. They don't deserve our help anymore. They probably never did.

Hate is the word to define the relation between the Israelis and Palestinians. Palestinians hate Israelis, we see this from horrible terrorist atrocities that they create and Israelis hate the Palestinians, this is also obvious, Shimon, would you make a population live in a concentration-camp-like setting if you do not hate them ? Put yourself in the place of a Gazan, unable to study, unable to walk freely on the streets, unable to have medical attention. You hate each other. Israel was doing meteorological analyses to release hazardous nuclear dust material in such a way that they were releasing it only during the days of strong wind towards Jordan, this is the same mentality as nuking them, just in the same way you are killing every day 3-5 Palestinians like sport shooting, nobody can deny this. Palestinians themselves are also majority islamists, also irrational and violent, so I really wonder what will be the scene in 20 years time. Ya'alon already says that he predicts war, this means he WANTS war, so you will kill them more, that is what this whole thing is about.

Let's say hypothetically speaking that the occupation ends unilaterally...then the Palestinians will request full return to '67 borders. ...once they get that then they'll bomb the shit out of Israel and talk about the refugees that were "thrown off their land by the Jews" before the War of Independence until Europe pressures Israel to return to '48 borders. ...once that happens, they'll keep making up refugee numbers until Israel dissolves as a nation. I agree wholly with Jingles. The Palestinians deserve nothing. If a 2-State solution is at all possible, then they need to get over the fac that Israel will never retreat to the '67 borders, ever. To use logic from anti-Israel activists: the Palestinians must accept that Israel isn't going anywhere, and therefore neither are the Jews. Shayna

when will this wetern hatred, of muslim for jew of christian for the rest end,,, your so called religions make me feel sick. religion as a tool, a reason to hate? which prophet tought you that??? wake up,,,,,

with all due respect---have you ever been to these areas? Although i am no expert, i have been to the west bank several times. The arabs are very good at what they do.....Israelis must be one step ahead or many may be killed....(i hope you dont need an example) Although they will deny it.....they will hide their weapons in ambulances, u.n. vehicles. Furthermore, they are well organized. They are not stupid people,,,to be honest with you, my cousins in the army tell me that they are very intellegent people who need someone to love them more than they hate Israel. They try to move from town to town, village to village. They are not doing it to play cards--this does not mean to say that many are good people and are just visiting or working. This is why roadblocks are necessary....for every action there is a reaction....its quite simple,,,,they try to send in suicide bombers, and Israel erects checkpoints and 'walls'. When bombings stop---im sure checkpoints will ease up and then stop....although this war is horrible for both peoples....i do think the answer is quite simple,,,and that peace will come shortly (another discussion) Im sure if Mexico had similar problems---they would do the same,,,any country would----Israel MUST protect her citizens .... if it takes checkpoints and a wall-then so be it....would Mexico negotiate with the lives of the Mexican people---i dont think so. Please dont set different standards for Israel. They made peace with Egypt and Jordan----and they will with the palestinians too. I just came back from Mexico city,,,had a great time,,,very warm people !!!

but hes irrelevant to this debate...better off debating with the Jews and Palestinians...you know the people who have a stake in this ...not wannabees...

Becuase terrorists attack on both sides of the green line and just having checkpoints at the gree line would not save gush and other israeli cities from bloodthirsty terrorists

interesting post....you are actually starting to gain some respect from me. Although you see fit to criticize Israel at every opportunity-i think the problem lies with the fact that people like Khalid and others dont need more ammunition -especially since you are a jew). They are very good at talking half truths or outright lies and they like to use the rights and freedoms that others enjoy to spew their anti-ISrael views. You are falling right into their hands and I (as others do) have a big problem with that. You are an intellegent guy---surely you can see that !!

Alan: Terrorists trying to enter Israel proper could always be caught in roadlocks or checkposts around the green line, or don't you trust the effectiveness of the IDF? or isn't this the justification for the wall? So why does Israel need a checkpost for Palestinians travelling from Ramalah to Nablus, or from Betlehem to Hebron? You don't need a PhD to answer who are they protecting. Mind you, these checkpoints are the number ONE point for recruiting future terrorists.

1. You did not answer a single question that I asked - obviously, you can't because I caught you in a lie. 2. "... people like you try to draw a distorted image of Palestinians, that they are monsters and hungry for blood". Your actions speak better than any words. 3. "...once peace will come, people will come back and ask you to clarify ...". Is this your vision of peace - show trials, summary executions? Or people just simply come and shoot you in your bedroom like it happened this week to Rantisi? How does it reconsile with statements of your buddy Khalid, who claims that you enjoy freedom of speech? 4. You ask why I list "West Bank" as a city. Actually, I live in a settlement in the West Bank. West Bank is a west bank of a river - it can be in Israel, Russia, United States, France, Zimbabwe, etc. Just like "Palestine", the term "West Bank" was invented to rob Jewish people of their land and history. I just like to point this out once in a while.

I didnt say that Danite, although that certainly is a well grounded view in Scripture.

Over 800 words so the last paragraph had to go. Hope to add it on Mon or Sun. I am taking off soon for Shabbat.

I will contact the Palestinian Mission to the UN here in NYC and ask them. To me it seems and I think to any objective observer, that the Palestinians are willing to negotiate with the State of Israel and that they recognise it. The PA is not Hamas anymore than the Hagana was the Irgun. Abass is trying to co-opt them into the political process. Israel will not discuss the refugee question. It must be confronted and Israel can no longer go on refusing to discuss it. The Palestinian position is clear. How will Israel respond with a counter offer. As for the rest, Palestinians agree to a 23% of the historic land. Israel refuses. It insists on keeping the settlement blocs and working around them.

Danite, I never heard or read anything from the PA saying they insist on a Jew Free Palestine. Please forward...I've heard wise cracks about how the settlers are welcome to stay if they become citizens of Palestine...Of course, I doubt many would accept that offer. I do, however, appreciate your ingrained attitude about needing a Jewish majority within the Green Line...that's fine...that's why we are looking for a two state solution. Can you work on some of the radicals on your side and I'll be on the lookout for some on my side. Ibrahim

Mr Franzen, Thanks for the moral support. You are a righteous man. I agree we have some close minded souls floating around here. From my perspective, if there is a God, He loves us all, and if there is such a thing as a soul, they are all the same size. I am just trying to advocate a peaceful solution but it won't work with Shimon. He thinks we Palestinians are inherently violent. And "Jews ONLY target terrorists" ... Hmmmm, odd how the Israeli Police recently uncovered a plot by Jews to take down the Al Aksa Mosque...Odd how Mr Sharon's security detail has been beefed up because of death threats from Israeli Jews.... I know I live in a glass house...the Palestinians aren't perfect....I've said it many times in these forums. But there IS a perfect solution to this mess: Peaceful coexistance based on a fair territorial comprimise...the 1967 borders with only minor modifications, a shared Jerusalem, and a fair deal on the refugees which doesn't harm Israel's delicate demographic balance. Thanks for listening. Peace, Ibrahim

First, let me know if you got my posting in response to the Jewish/Arab school in Kfar Kama. I related more info on Neve Shalom, the school and the community. They are a secular community so don't have these religious/secular tensions. The late Fr. Bruno Hussar insisted on it being a secular community. First, my comments about this Portland Initiative simply referred to the need for co-operation. It will not work if it is a kind of: now the Jews will come in and fix your problem and we will tell you what is best. It must be done co-operatively, that is what I meant. I admit readily that I am no businessman. Second, I admit I have not been as harsh in my criticism of Palestinians as I have been with Israelis. Perhaps that's because I spent 12 years of my life in Israel and I think I know something about that society. I certainly have been clear in my condemnation of suicide bombing. It may be an understandable explosion of rage but it is neither morally or tactically acceptable. It produces nothing but hatred and pain in your opponent, and it brings nothing but pain and sorrow to the families and society of the perpetrator. This depresses the national will to build an independent state. It is a tool of those who feel themselves powerless, Sri Lanka with the Tamil Tigers the prime example. Perhaps that incident outside that Jerusalem kolnoah transformed me although I was always politically very left while in Israel. I felt what that momentary hatred as I saw that woman ablaze could do to me. Thank God I did not give in to that feeling. When I served in the army and I had to march on maneuvers through an Arab village outside the colony of Beit El, as I heard the laughter and scorn from the other soldiers in my unit of olim hadashim, many of them Russians or Central Asians toward those people and the smiles from the officers in response to these comments, I knew something was deeply wrong. Soulfully wrong. I sensed a sense of entitlement, an unreflective midset that justifeid every action. I was active in Arab-Jewish groups working for co-operation, understanding and peace and I simply did not sense any distrust or suspicion toward my palestinian friend and I came to understand their position and the injustice that had been done to them. I remembered the metaphor used by that Egyptian female journalist who in the face of tremendous criticism, visited and toured Israel, and this before the famous visit of Sadat (that Motze Shabbat, as I say his motorcade go past my street in Kiryat Yovel and watched on TV as he stepped off that plane was one of the greatest moments of my 12 yrs in Israel)who compared the situation to a man in a burning house. The house was burning and he couldnot possible go back into his room. He had to jump, but in jumping he had to fall upon a passerby who had nothing to do with the fire. I believe with all my heart that if Israel were to embrace the palestinians in a spirit of reconciliation, historical animosity and distruct that breathes in the lungs of both peoples that we would be embraced. We would return to the borders of 67 or make land adjustments accordingly and we would show the world, perhaps for the first time in history, that a capital can be shared-open and shared. I have a natural sympathy for those who are powerless. Perhaps this comes from my Irish background. I feel the palestinians were shafted, not out of malice, but because zionism simply avoided them and did not take their presence into the equation. of course they did not accept us with open arms as we poured in to what they considered to be their country and and saw what was theirs being swept unable to do anything about it. Like the man in the burning house, the Jews said "we can do nothing about it either". I hope this answers some of your questions. Shabbat Shalom

yes, you are right-only that nobody sees it`s own wall. You know I have friend in the American military and well, he was sent to Iraq by Bush and 'I hated Bush MORE THAN EVER. I wrote some kind of poem, but it disappeared. Now when there is hatred you are not really able to do anything reasonably and I felt that(yes, really)some kind of wall was putting itself around my HEART. No joke. However I know and felt that with a wall of hatred(a wall is wall) around your heart you are not really available and not really able to having dialogue/discuss anymore and so I made my wall break/fall before being too late.

How convenient it must be for propagandists and anti-Zionists to batter Israel at any given opportunity. While freely citing Israel's position as a "mighty power" oppressing the "weak and unfortunate" Palestinian people, these provocatuers of discord fail to or refuse to realize the following: * Palestinians were active and violent members of a losing army of aggressive Arab forces in 1947/8 and for decades before then. Though beseeched to live peacefully with their Jewish neighbors, they chose violence and hatred over coooperation and brotherhood. * Palestinians lived in Gaza under Egyptian control and in the West Bank under Jordanian control for 19 years after Israel's rebirth in 1948. Why were they kept in squalor by their own brethren? Why did their wealthy Arab brethren not improve their conditions? Where was the international outcry then? * Arab nations launched aggression again in 1956, 1967, 1973 and 1982. What more destruction and death does Israel need to experience to conclude that they must be cautious and strong with their unpredictable enemies? * Strength is respected, weakness is taken advantage of. Noe that the most significant strides toward peace in teh last 3 decades were made by Begin, Netanyahu and Sharon - 3 staunch nationalists. When will Arab leaders show similar courage? Golda Meir once commented: "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us." She also told Anwar Sadat: "We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours." How about it, my brothers and sisters?

This is not meant as an attempt to argue, i am just seriously very curious what your standpoint is on a couple of issues and why. Please take the time to clarify these for me...these are not meant to be ofensive in the least: 1)What is your stance on illegal Arab housing in East Jerusalem. If Israel has to remove its so called illegal housing, then why shouldnt the Arabs be forced to remove thiers?? Doesnt seem that fair to me 2)Why must the Jews leave the Gush and Hebron of all places. Jews were there way before 1948 and never even left the gush. Hebron we were forcibly removed after arabs were violent for no reason whatsoever (still waiting on an explination for that too if you could please give it to me). Of all places, Jews have a claim on those so why not let them live there? Gush was never the arabs land so why should they get it?? thank you for answering my qusestions (if you can that is)

there you go again. Trying to show the world how horrible Israelis are. You will take one event and make it into something more. It was unfortunate and very sad (if true). It is not practice-whether you want to believe it or not !! Hope you are living comfortably in Sweden. I hope war never comes to your doorstep becuase you will see that sometimes innocent people die !! Very sad for both our peoples !!! Please dont insult the intellegence of other people on an Israeli website. Im sure there are lots of anti-Israel sites you can find !!!!!

First of all...its give me LIBERTY or give me death. Secondly, i never heard a story of george washington murdering little children with a bomb around his belt on a public bus. do u??? once again reading lying textbooks i see??

You are forgetting one thing. People in the Jewish wold do not have this view. For us, its a MINORTIY OPINION!!! for arabs, who have martyrs painted on all their walls and shrines to those who blew up children, they are HEROS!!! There is a huge difference

I said this on the other forum. The first mistake was made on Feb. 6, 2005. "Woe to the obstinate children", declares the Lord, "to those who carry out plans that are not mine, forming an alliance, but not by my Spirit, heaping sin upon sin; who go down to Egypt without consulting me; who look for help to Pharaoh's protection, to Egypt's shade for refuge. (Isaiah 30:1-2) There is no REAL peace with Abbas. Woe to us in the U.S. for making our own plans to divide up the land of Israel. For rewarding terrorism and helping to bring about false peace. Jesus have mercy on us. For the Lord God is a convenant keeping God and since He has begun restoring Israel (1948), He will avenge her. Psalm 83 is being fullfilled before our very eyes!! Oh God do not remain quiet! As we pray for all of you please pray that our government will not move forward with their own motives, but consult with the Lord, before they bring forth destruction on us.

im afraid you are wrong. Not every country fails to recognize soverienty over Jerusalem....guess youll have to search that one out Moslems are not the only ones that can be fanatics,,,,I am a proud zionist,,,,does that make me a fanatic as well?

ok, with this one one can start talking Nicole, becuse I am sorry in the other posts you seemed to be quite impossible to be available. May I ask you a question: do you know Palestinians personally? Waiting for an answer before continuing to write Kay

"No other country on earth, including the US, Israel`s guardian-ally, recognizes Israeli soverienty over Jerusalem." Not quite correct. US congress passed a law (by very wide margin) mandating that US moves its embassy to Jerusalem. So far, Bush has delayed implementation (he needed Arab support in Iraq...). My guess is that Bush and Sharon already agreed in private that the move will take place after the Gaza withdrawal. We'll seen in a few month!

Hola Roberto I have some earth breaking news.....the checkpoints are there to stop the bombers from entering Israel,,,,this week alone Israel has caught 5,,,several children !! Sorry, but to say they are there to protect the settlers is a gross distortion....(although i would like to believe the army would protect them as well as good palestians as well)

Although I am off for the weekend I do look foward to hearing your response if you dare to my post on Yaakov and the third temple on Monday. Have a shabat shalom.

As the recent elections in Gaza show, PLO does not represent the entire Palestinian people, perhaps not even a majority. Many Palestinians view PLO as currupt. It is Hamas that garners respect of the people. And PLO/Fateh openly admit they have no power to confront or disarm Hamas. Here is a message from Hamas to Israel (http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm) "Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors." The Imam and Martyr Hassan al-Banna(5) May Allah Pity his Soul "Allah has decreed: Lo! I very shall conquer, I and my messengers, lo! Allah is strong, almighty." Sura 58 (Al-Mujadilah), verse 21(10).

after a careful review of the BS in these forums, I've come to the conclusion that none of you are worth fighting for. Have a nice weekend!

Though it is certainly true that SOME Palestians have accepted the existence of Israel for some time, Some have made it quite clear that they never will. Unless and until a truly representive Palestinian govt. is willing (and able) to enforce a cohesive policy of recognition in all areas under it's "control", they will fail to achieve a viable state. The Israelis are facing off against the militants in their ranks. Soldiers will be evicting Jews from their homes because of govt. policy. Jews who call for a 'greater Israel' or who call for the expulsion of Arabs are being confronted and isolated for the extremist that they are. Will a Palestinian entity assert control over well armed and disoplined militas in their terrirtory that still call for the destruction of Israel? Until they do, I believe Israel must continue with the stages of withdrawl and with the building of the seperation fence. Peace

Despite your allegation that Arafat countered Barak's "generous" offer of 90-95% with intifada - it's not so. Arafat asked for, and stuck to his guns. He wanted no less than what UN Resolution 242 demanded. Isreal's withdrawl to the 1967 line. "Barak extended a hand of peace" he offered to exchange land with Arafat on a 6 to 1 ratio (six dunams of settled Westbank land for one dunam outside the 1967 line). Please be more honest with yourself.

Hi Ibrahim Never mind Joe he's a "Israel right or wrong" guy. They seem to be a baker's dussin here.

While the leftie editors of Haaretz are always predicting doom and gloom, the tenacious Isreali citizens continue to live, work, raise children, and continue to build the country. Let's not worry too much about the boogie man. Iran, Hamas, Al Qaeda,... there will always be wicked people around. Have faith in the Jewish people, thier intellect, and will power.

If Israel doesn't withdraw to the 1967 borders, Tel Aviv will one day become predominantly Palestinian, willy nilly, and Zionism will be a thing of the past. KA

your guardians in America say "give me freedom or give me death." and you wnat us to trade off your hamburgers for our freedom. YOu must be dreaming. Khalid

Yan, the PA and all of the West Bank are under Israeli military occupation. East Jerusalem is part of the West Bank. No other country on earth, including the US, Israel's guardian-ally, recognizes Israeli soverienty over Jerusalem. Besides, are you a Zionist fanatic, a friend of the settlers to ask such a provocative questions. Khalid

On Sept. 13, 1993, Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin publicly shook hands on the White House lawn. That gesture ushered in the Oslo "peace process," so called after the Norwegian capital where its groundwork had been laid. The deal that led to the White House handshake had been sealed with an exchange of correspondence four days earlier. On Sept. 9, Arafat had signed a letter declaring that the PLO "recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security" and "renounces the use of terrorism and acts of violence." He promised to "assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations, and discipline violators." Rabin replied that Israel would recognize the PLO as the Palestinians' representative and accept it as a negotiating partner for peace. But the White House ceremony did not inaugurate an era of peace. It inaugurated instead the worst decade of terrorism in Israel's history. Just 11 days after the handshake, 22-year-old Yigal Vaknin was stabbed to death in a citrus grove by a Hamas death squad, which left a note boasting of the murder. Vaknin was the first of 1,126 men, women, children, and babies who would lose their lives to Palestinian terror in the 10 years following Arafat's renunciation of violence. Some, like Vaknin, were knifed to death. Others were shot or stoned or bombed. The terrorists have killed their victims at a discotheque and a bat mitzvah party, at a Passover seder and in a pizzeria, on rural roads and in private homes, on a university campus and in a farmer's market, and in dozens of buses and bus stops. And for every terror victim who has died, six or seven others have been wounded -- often maimed or traumatized for life. Oslo quickly became a cult, worshipped with a fervor that brooked no doubts and disdained all skeptics. There was never peace but there was a "peace process," and the more the evidence of its failure mounted, the more fervently it was venerated. Within a few months it should have been clear to all that Arafat and the PLO leadership had not abandoned terrorism. Empowering them with land and money and authority had inflamed, not quenched, their thirst to "liberate" Israel from the Jews. Buses exploded and funerals proliferated, but Israelis told themselves that they were fashioning a "peace of the brave" and that there was no alternative but to return to the negotiating table and offer new concessions. Yet each concession only further convinced the Palestinians that the Jews were weakening, and that upping the violence would make them even more desperate for peace. Looking back now, Prove that Palestinians and folks like those who support their violence can be trusted in 2005

Ok, Joseph, next time be sure of your information. Remember you are dealing with intelligent people. Besides, if you knew that the 99% story was a lie, why did you allow yourself to repeat it on this forum? Khalid

You accuse me that i was dancing when one of my own people blew herelf and killed Israeli's. This is a good example of how people like you try to draw a distorted image of Palestinians, that they are monsters and hungry for blood People. It is just how long you will be able to keep up with distributing this distorted image. Wake up soon, because once peace will come, people will come back and ask you to clarify what you have said, you will be very lonely very soon with your accusations. In my response i call for peace, but obviously you are not interested in that. By the way, west bank is not a city, maybe you would like to say exactly where you write from. "hence, a settlement in the West bank??" and if you don't want, just write nothing. save yourself my responce.

Lefties are always complaining prison sentences are too harsh...Life in canada for a murderer is 25yrs (lefties run canada) Put some murderer away for 30yrs and the lefties go crazy saying such a ``harsh`` sentence...but for a Libbie Lefty like Yaakov when it comes to a patriotic Jew... `` I said he deserves to remain where he is "in prison" for the rest of his life.`` Yaakov what about Marwan Bargouti? How long should he stay in prison (and hes got lots of blood on his hands,Pollard never killed anyone)

Joe, I don't have to answer questions from you, because your questions are usually tendentious and motivated by ill will. But I will answre the question. The vast bulk of the Palestinian people, including myself, are willing and ready to recognize Israel as a democratic state that treats all its present citizens on equal footing regardless of religion and race, within the 1967 borders. So, the answer is YES. Khalid

Johannes, declarations and words in general are cheap in the Arab world (especially those spoken in English). I suggest you read some speeches of Arafish and other prominentos translated from Arabic. Far from all parts of the Palestinian Covenant Arafat refers to in his declaration have been abolished. But this is not the point. The declaration is from 1993 - but what happended afterwards? Is your memory failing you? Don't you realize that it is still the so-called "Right of Return" to the WHOLE Palestine all the Palestinian "prominentos" incl Abbas are calling for? As to the issue of the article - I think the West has paid more than enough to the corrupt PA and for the most part it was money down the drain (including your and my tax money too). Now it is the turn of Arab Brothers to part with some of their petrodollars - don't you think? You have been suspiciously silent on that issue...

Poster # 75 makes a very sorry apology for humilating checkposts: [quote] If Israel removes its checkpoints, it exposes its citizens to the real danger of being killed doing some routine daily activity. On the other hand, the checkpoints impose on the Palestinians a "3 hour wait" and "being treated like a terrorist". This is an issue of Israeli life vs. Palestinian pride. [/end quote] Why would a Palestinian travelling from Ramalah to Nablus ot to Hebron, staying all the journey inside the WB, put Israeli Jews inside the green line on danger? He wouldn't. Even if carrying a dozen belt bombs. So, why this Palestinian has to suffer contless humiliations? It would be understandable that Palestinians be searched trying to enter the green line, but oh ! oh! horror ! this would mena recognizing the green line as a de facto border, so the settler lobby would be angered and the whole Israeli political establishment show its pitiful lack of beitzim, or perhaps its silent complicitly with the settler gods. Come on! be honest ! face facts ! The reason why thousands of Palestinians are daily humiliated in their everyday trips between WB cities is to protect about 50-70 thousand Israeli Jews living in isolated settlements, or in cities like Ariel, geographicaly cut from Israel proper. The checpoints don't even protect "settlement blocks" near the green line. Now, we continue reading this hard headed "realism": [quote] The argument that a certain peoples not suffering "humiliation" (which, by the way the Israelis do too - at malls, bus stations, etc) takes priority over another peoples lives is ridiculous - on anyones standard - not just for Israelis and Palestinians. [/end quote] Please, just trade your every average day, your evry average "humiliation" with the average Palestinian day in his every average "humiliation". Let's see if you remain so "cool" and so "realistic". Let's see if you can resist the boiling of your blood.

Luis, nice spin !!!! Please help me clear up some confusion. All we hear is that Israel does NOT want peace. You say its (Israel) THEIR PLAN, THEIR VIEW, THEIR NEW HOUSES, THEIR WALL, THEIR STRATEGY...... which way do you want it? either Israel wants peace or they dont. Seems like Israel is in a no win situation----hence --disengagement and the wall !!!! When the arabs and their supporters figure out what they want, they will have a peace partner. Until that happens--i say build it higher and faster !!!!!

firstly, there is no palestine. but thats besdies the point. If you have ever done the slightest bit of reseach, you would see that palestinina maps have never shown israel....all palestine all the way to tel aviv. There is also no mention of Israel anywhere!! only palestine!! Israel does not have a palestinina state on their maps simply because ONE NEVER EXISTED!!! If you even knew what happened only 40 years ago, you would know that the land belonged to ordan, and even they took their claim away from it. By the way, if it was "occupied" by Jordan, why didnt the palestinias fight them before 67???? ...oh, i forgot, fighting Jews is practically an arab pasttime!! see 1948,1929,1956,1973,1967, ect ect ect ect.

The religious left has "no soul"? Who made you judge of souls fox? Yaakov has very adequatly described arrogant settler types such as your self, I dont need to add to his comments except to say about you and yours he is right.

Thats a great idea!! Lets give a people who havent proven themselves to be nonviolent once in their entimre 30 year history a state before they do anything at all in return!!! Becuase only THEN, after we have stopped looking for terrorists and given them land, will they even TRY and be peaceful. SURE! BRILLIANT!! While we are at it, maybe we should just give all the arabs bombs and say, "Look!! attacking israel gives you freedom!! go blow things up until you have tel aviv!!" Ibrahim, YOU have a side to do also. Dont say that it can only be done once israel does everything, because its total BS. While israel fulfills its side, you better start doing yours, or you continue to be an uproven bloodthirsdty people just trying to get everything without giving anything in return!!! ITS A TWO WAY STREET!!

So Ari Shavit thinks General Giladi is a genious, able to pull off a half baked non reality based project with the right amounts of money 3 Jewish Peers can muster. What is going on? Why is 'his' plan or vision better than Peres'? What on earth compels him to convince us that spending good monry after bad will create a 'Palestine' when the occupation is in full force. His rosy predictions are as pertinent as the morose predictions of Ya'alon and company. All of them are predicated on a non starting model of continued occupation and brutal supression of the population. I have yet to hear a reality based proposal for terminating the impasse.

Tell me Yaakov are the palestinians somehow an agent of redemption for Israel the "hard way" in your escatalogical view of the world? Is a peace settlement that "hurts" ie remove Ramot and Gilo and cleanse the PA of all the zionist filth needed to bring those Zionist idolators to their knees and rape them of their nationalist land cult in order to purge The House of Israel from the wicked? So that a redeemed remnant true to the convenat and the Nuetura Karta understanding of it will come into being and all will like us again? Do the Jews suffer for their sins via devine punishment Yaakov? Are the nations and in this case the Palestinians the 'rod of instruction".

"Haven`t you ever imagined that i also dream of being i such a bus. Every palestinian knows that he or she does not have to fear buses blowing your brains up. But would you be fair enough to look at the same pictures or shreded children whose only guilt was being a by stander in a targeted killing." An interesting article from the BBC, perhaps of interest. Revenge killings performed by the Isreali Army, with orders originating from the very top of the Isreali leadership. More than double the original deaths and quite enjoyed by the Isreali soldiers. It is sad and disgusting that they can sit in a court and openly say they actually enjoyed performing these killings and did not want to stop. Acutally chased them down. With this type of article and trial it's not hard to see who the terrorist occupiers are. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4605899.stm

Here is the statement again. Please answer - True, or False: Palestinians refuse to accept and respect the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state in peace and security, regardless of the territory defined for such a state.... Of course Palestinians have long accepted and agreed to respect the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state in peace and security... BUT "Regardless of the territory defined for such a state" !!!!! Give us a break, Joe. Why would Palestinians accept Israel's right to exist as a state for Jews ALL OVER PALESTINE? Admit it Joe. There's nothing Palestinians can ever say that will make you happy. You just keep changing the rules as you go. Palestine is for Palestinians. Israel is for Israelis. Why don't you get it? Israel will never have the peace it claims it wants so long as it continues stealing Palestinian land and subjugating (polite euphemism) Palestinian people.

While Khalid might have his own point of view, maybe I'll give it a go... THE QUESTION: "Palestinians refuse to accept and respect the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state in peace and security, regardless of the territory defined for such a state." THE ANSWER: FALSE THE PRECONDITION: No.1 definition of territory is achieved through negtiations with Palestinians No.2 Israels maintenance of Jewish character is achieved and maintianed thought DEMOCRATIC means whereby not so small minorities like the Israeli arabas (approx. quarter of total population) would have a say in such a decision, or at least their greivances from such a system are internalized and understood (i.e. sole biggest land owner of land in israel lifts their ban on selling land to non-jews) COUNTER QUESTION: (True or False) Many Jews will resort to violence if they realize, or suspect, Israel will transform to a secular democratic state through democratic means.

Couple of comments: - All those attacked by Israeli soldiers were PA police in uniform. Not all armed, but all members of the Palestinian Police. - Palestinian Police should not expect that their collaboration with terror organization will go unanswered. israel armed that police force, and they collaborate with those committed to the destruction of Israel. - At no ytime diod Israeli soldiers attacked people not wearing Palestinian Police uniform. No citizens were targetted. - At time of conflict with the Palestinians Police is a legitinate target. - I expect the comanders of the Israeli army to act profetionally. Revenge attacks are signs of weakness. - I never said we were angels. - This is a consequential event to the main thing: Palestinian terror aggression against Israeli, aimed at its destruction.

Barak withdrew from Taba because HAMAS WAS SUICIDE BOMBING IN THE MIDDLE OF NEGOTIATIONS THATS WHY.Barak had his proposals like arafat had his was camp david with clinton a dictate session? Oh I forgot Clinton is also a stooge of the zionists working with Barak to "fool everybody" Right?

The rest of the population knows this is wrong and we do not condone it. on the other hand, you put pictures of terrorists on your walls in cities and mourn them as heros. See the difference???...its pretty blatant

I am not expecting any thanks for anything I am just saying that the Palestinians for their own good should take every opportunity to improve their situation irregardless of what else is happening. Also Ibrahim dont the Palestinians insist on a Jew free PA? Both need to keep their majorities it is understandable!

'Palestinian point of view sees the conflict as beginning in 1967 with the occupation of the West bank and Gaza with peace understood to be a complete withdrawla from these areas.' Because the Palestinians are responssible for getting themselves occupied, of course they start from 1967. Think Yaakov. If before 1967 all was fine, why now Arab had recognized the right of Israel to exist? - Why was the PLO established in 1964? - Why Palestine wasn't established PRIOR to the Israeli occupation? The 1967 occupation serves, first and foremost, as an easy-to-sell excuse for the continuation of aggresion against Israel aimed at its destruction. They hide behind their military wickness to gain political strength over Israel. But you see, Yaakov, you can't fool everybody all the time. That's the main weekness of this strategy. 'The Camp David accords, followed by the Oslo accords, tried to persuade the Palestinian leadrship....' Let me remind you Yaakov, that only in 1993 the PLO had recognized UN resolution 242. Until 1993, the Palestinians rejected, out of their own free will, the basis for peace negotiations. So why are they blaming anyone for the first 26 years of occupation. Once the PLO accepted resolution 242, Israel IMMEDIATELY was prepared to open a new page, and engaged in a process comitting itself to return territories. 'Further, the Palestinians were told that they could not discuss the issue of the refugees, one of the main reasons for the Palestinian struggle to begin with.' - When UN resolution was adopted, in Nov. 29th, 1947, there were no refugees, Yaakov. Had the Palestinians accepted resolution 181, and decided to establish Palestine when the British left, there would be no refugees, no war, no occupation, settlements. Instead, they committed themselves to destroy Israel. Can't do the time - Don't do the crime. - Besides, Most refugees left because this is what their own leaders asked them to do. 'Then this humiliation was followed by the little strut of Sharon on the Temple Mount, surrounded by hundreds of police and secret service personell.' That's another excuse. I can bring you evidence upon evidence that the escalation was a premeditated strike, and the visit was only the excuse. Besides, the 'spontanious' objection to Sharon's visit started more than a hour after 'Elvis has left the building'.

Yaakov it is good to see that you find some optimism in this project. It could do some good. But then you go on with that tired, but"what will be the Palestinian input?" Come on buddy, you know this is a useless rhetorical statement. You are not interested in the day to day workings of the plan. You are not going to show up and make the deal makers accountable. You will not research the actions of the major families (hamoulot), who play the most important part in the dicision making process on the ground. Much of the monies will pass through alot of hands making its way into alot of pockets. that is how business is done, even you know that. Don't play innocent and gullable. Now for my question. You once posted a mailing to me describing the act of terror that you experienced. You said that it affected your relationship to the situation here. I have not perceived you to be one of the religous Left, you are no Leon, you have a soul and I believe you would really like to see peace. what I have a problem with is your level of acceptance. Your level of acceptance of Israeli actions is extreeeeeeeemely low, we are held by you in the lowest esteem. To put it simple you do not trust the Israeli government, nor do you accept it's ethos. That is fine. But what confuses me is your blind acceptance of all transgressions by the Palestinian side and its myths. when the issue of Palestinian terror or brutality arises, all that you find moral is displaced by the never ending recording of "Occupation!" As you have previously stated in other postings, if the occupied is happy to be occupied than occupation is not so bad. You were commenting on why the amercian and Canadian occupation of the North american native peoples is okay with you and them. For me this signified that occupation in itself is not the ultimate evil. yet you continue to imply that every evil in the middle east stems from the zionist occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. I see some holes in your reasoning. Share with me the logic behind your unebbing flow of trust with regards to the Palestinians. Convince me somehow that from their past actions I should blindly put my trust in them to. Please speak from the heart, bereft of cliches and that same old hat pseudo_Marxist crap. It is tired and doesn't affect my soul in any shape or form.

Khalid, why should you have a free and unhindered entry in Jerusalem? All Israeli citizens (Jews, Arabs and everything in between) have a free and unhindred movement everywhere in Israel, including Jerusalem. As you are a person living under Palestinian Authority de juro control and is such without Israeli citizenship, why should be allowed to move freely within a sovereign state not your own? After all, all sovereign states leave it up to them to decide who can enter, and who cant. It seems to me that you desperatelly want to become Israeli, rather then to remain Palestinian. Do you, Khalid?

Richard: to the one who mocks the one he mocks as a mocker. Go back and read my posting to this yardena woman. Hardly bullying. False attribution. No evidence. My posting to her was merely a request to stay on track. Same advice to you. I love Psalms. I just don't like to hear them misquoted, or misapplied. Pollard is a traitor to the US. He should remain in prison. I did not say or use the term "rot". I said he deserves to remain where he is "in prison" for the rest of his life. As for forgiveness, it is he that must seek it from his fellow Americans, not I.

'The fact that Palestinians entered into negotiations with the Israelis attests to the fact that they recognise Israel as an independent state, a reality.' I am not sure if you had read the PLO Ten Point Plan, also known as 'The Phased Plan for the Destruction of Israel'. Item 10 asserts that the PLO will define the tactics to implement the strategy of the 'Ten Point Plan' - The Destruction of Israel. The Oslo accords are the tactics. I didn't say it - Arafat did, in many interviews. For him, Oslo is Phase 1 in the 3 Phases plan to destroy Israel. I never heard anyone else in the PA deny it. Arafat also made many refernces of the 'peace of the brave' to the Khudaibiya agreement, which was a deceit (just like Oslo). No one in the PA had denied that as well. If you wish to have references for both - just let me know. 'Joe, Please provide a current statement from the palestinian Authority that denies the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish State.' Yaakov, have you heard of an organization called 'Hamas'? - Have you read its Covenant? - It calls for Israel's destruction, and the PA harbors it. The PA also never amended the Palestinian National Charter that still calls for the destruction of Israel. PS didn't renounce the 'Ten Point Plan'. Do you need more evidence, Yaakov? 'Barak`s offer was a no go from the start.' So, Yaakov, if you do not like the hand offered for peace, do you give a counter offer, or do you try to cut that hand? - What do you expect the response would be if you try and cut that hand? 'There was nothing to negotiate. It was a dictate-take it or leave it, all encased in the three "red lines" which were not open to discussion- Jerusalem, refugees, and `67 borders'. Who says it is not negotiable?? '...but they are realistic enough to realise that they must compromise with the reality of Israel.' Compromise goes both side. The moment the Palestinians would be ready to compromise rather than try and dictate an agreement, solution will come very fast. 'The want more than anything for Israel to end its occupation'. Fataly wrong. If establishing Palestine was their wish, they would have celebrated last month, in parallel to Israel 57 years of independence.

LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO PRIME MINISTER RABIN: September 9, 1993 Yitzhak Rabin Prime Minister of Israel Mr. Prime Minister, The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments: The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security. The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions | 242 | and | 338 |. The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations. The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and Personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators In view of the pormise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of |the Palestinian Covenant| which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant. Sincerely, Yasser Arafat Chairman, The Palestine Liberation Organization http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/DECLARATION_OF_PRINCIPLES_1993/Arafat_letter_to_Rabin/arafat_letter_to_rabin.asp

Your allegatios are horrible. Jews DO NOT KILL ARABS FOR SPROT OR A HOPE OF VIRGINS!!!! THAT WOULD BE YOUR OWN PEOPLE!!!! Jews ONLY target terrorists. Arabs goal is not to kill terrorist but to kill as many people, man, women, and children as possible. Who wants to massacre who now???

you state "A similar series of events is what set off the massacre of Jews in Hebron in 1929." that is so incorerect its almost scary. Do u know what life was like in Hebron then? It was perfect and peacefull with Jewish hospitals serving arabs and jews equally. There was no hatred and everyone was living in peace. Then, out of nowhere the arabs attacked. END OF STORY! The jews did nothing to provoke it in any way!!! but i would like to hear your fictional account of this event for humorous puposes so pleasae tell me how is all went down

Daniel, The final peace deal looks alot like what you describe. Now....how do we get there? I think we already have Palestinian buy-in...go ask Mahmoud Abbas if he would accept....The Palestinians have some house cleaning, but it can't be done while this Occupation Monkey on their backs. Peace- Ibrahim

You do not have to answer that question, Khalid. But if you don't, people might wonder why don't you? Here is the statement again. Please answer - True, or False: Palestinians refuse to accept and respect the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state in peace and security, regardless of the territory defined for such a state. Thank you.

With ALL these Swedes here obsessing about Israel (FRANZEN ALMOST 24hrs/day)You have the chutzpah to say Jakes obsessing about Sweden....

Well, I guess jingles has got the answers down pat. He'll tell the palestinians what they can and cannot do and what they can and cannot have and they had better, by God, tow the line or they will pay. Right, jingles, and what will be the result of your little prediction of you good guys living on this side of the wqall and the big bad guys on the other, caged in like animals? Well, they will huff and puff and blow your house down.

Joe, Israeli troops admit 'eye for eye' killing spree. You aren't aware of the harsh and brutal reality of occupation. It was harsh and brutal BEFORE there was a single suicide bomber and it still is. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050603/ts_nm/mideast_revenge_dc_6;_ylt=Ai5uksswfWGTQOHO8vM.vkoUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Khalid in the last few days I have experienced your head spinning out of control. It must take all your strength to just keep it on your neck. Your posting #2 was way out there buddy. Your seperation from reality is higher than that wall. Here someone is offering you financial aid and all you can say is "What, military occupation, we only want freedom!" What a load. Is this your real side? You would rather see your children starve and beg on Israeli streets, than see healthy mothers and babies and hospitals? Well this is what I always suspected. Oh by the way, it is not occupation that breeds poverty, facts show that it is the opposite. Actually it is violence that brings about most economic stagnation. Unemployment in the PA has gone from under 10% in 1999 to todays 24%. Figures which you can find at the Palestinian Bureau of Satistics website or from the UN and World Bank documents and studies. Previous to the Intishmada, Palestina was doing quite well economically, but with the violence came the roadblocks and inevitable decline in employment. Historically, after the second world war, the americans, french and english troops occupied Germany for over fifty years. The country was split into three regions for each of the powers, surprisingly even under the yoke of occupation Germany rose to super power economic status. hmmmmmmmmmm. I am not for occupation but I am not foolish enough to blame everything on it. Face reality and get that broken stick out of your...............! Peace.

I looked at the pictures you mentioned in msg %60 and almost started to cry - you poor people are treated like cattle and have to go through so much security. But then I recalled how one of your women pretended to be an invalid, was begging for help, and when Israeli soldiers - kids - came to help her, she blew herself up with them. You were probably dancing that day in celebration. So, you and your people deserve this kind of a treatment. In msg #39 you write "When there will be a Palestinian state and there will be a sertain percentage of jews living there like me and have the same passport I will pesonally fight for their rights and make sure the get chances to vote and to speack and to be free. " So, why did your ansestors kicked them out from your area in 1948? And why are you insisting on them leaving today? Of course, now you are so enlightened and pro-peace and human rights. You know words are cheap. Since you are quoting Hanan Ashrawi a lot, let me remind you that she once said that Arabs are "all or nothing" people. Guess what you are getting...

Fact of the matter is that the Israelis want to get rid of the Palestinians, expelling them is one option, exterminating them is another, yet both of these options have amazing technical problems so they do not resort to these branches (at least not for now). They can not kill all Palestinians, even America would not allow this to happen-for technical reasons, again. So the Israeli strategy is to kill Palestinians in "reasonable quantities" as time rolls on and make the life unbearable for them so that one day they all will commit suicide or something. But this will probably not happen either, so the way forward is to keep them as dormant as possible, give them the money that Giladi is talking about will keep them just alive, dull from hunger and depression but alive, menawhile they can kill some of them every now and then like flies. If someone from Sharon's entourage has an idea to "assist" the Palestinians economically, the probability of this being an evil inention is hundred percent, havens know what they have in mind. Sharon has horrible ideas even for the Israeli economics and social services, put aside the Palestinians. It is in Sharon's turn that the income gap in Israel has reached the horrible proportions, putting the very proud past of Israel as an egalitarian society into a rubbish bin. Is this lot intentioned to shape the Palestinian economics with positive feelings ? Even the crows would laugh !!! If Israel wants peace, it is easy, it should withdraw to pre 67 borders and If Palestinians want peace they should put an end to this horrible kamikaze phenomenon and kick out the Islamists from any decision making position. But for a muslim society the irrationality and laziness are two musts, so I have doubts...

It is time for Israelis to abandon their grandiose views on how they're going to save the peace process, and Palestine and the Palestinians. It is always THEIR plan, THEIR view, THEIR new houses in the settlements, THEIR wall, THEIR strategy - and it has not worked. Sincerity and good faith negotations will.

Right, right, all the Jewish folk from all over the world have the God-given right to evict every Palestinian from his farmland to build luxury housing, the better to fulfill God's plan... blah blah blah. Tell it to the American Indians. I'm sure their God made them promises too. While you're at it, can African-Americans please get on with "taking back" subsaharan Africa? And you know, there were Jews in Egypt and "Iraq" too, perhaps you should start drawing up a lease for yourself...

Jake, this isn't about Sweden so stop trying to divert the issue. Franzen posted a link to an article about Israeli atrocities against Palestinians. The good news is that Israeli soldiers of conscience reported to "Breaking the Silence" that they were given orders to murder innocent Palestinians. The bad news is that Palestinians have been victimized by Israeli state terrorism for decades. The world knows who is the victim, and it isn't Israel.

One of the symptoms of war is reduced freedoms for everyone. Do Israelis not get searched every time they enter a mall, bus station, or any other crowded place? It's not only Palestinians that pass through checkpoints. This can be made into a chicken or the egg type circular argument - the occupation/loss of freedom causes terror or terror causes occupation/loss of freedom. Lets look at the current fact - checkpoints stop terror attacks (someone gets caught nearly every day attempting to smuggle a bomb/weapon into Israel). There are two approaches here - dismantaling the checkpoints will lead to the cessation of terrorist attacks and the cessation of terrorist attacks will lead to the dismataling of checkpoints. Logically, it makes more sense to arrive at a period of calm - say 2 months (arbitrary) where there are no terror ATTEMPTS (successfull or thwarted). Not the other way around - to remove checkpoints first. If Israel removes its checkpoints, it exposes its citizens to the real danger of being killed doing some routine daily activity. On the other hand, the checkpoints impose on the Palestinians a "3 hour wait" and "being treated like a terrorist". This is an issue of Israeli life vs. Palestinian pride. The argument that a certain peoples not suffering "humiliation" (which, by the way the Israelis do too - at malls, bus stations, etc) takes priority over another peoples lives is ridiculous - on anyones standard - not just for Israelis and Palestinians.

well written but eival giladi should not have left the military where he was invaluable. i note the mocker is back and now bullying the ladies.mr osullivan you do not like to hear psalms so how about yeats to make you feel more at home. "mock mockers after that......for we traffic in mockery".a mocker indeed. you have nothing constructive to say.you sneer and scorn and you are spiteful. your contributions seem to insist on your righteousness but i only have to remember your words on pollard:"i hope he rots there for 50 years and dies in prison" not much righteousness there or indeed forgiveness.not much human decency either.

well written but eival giladi should not have left the military where he was invaluable. i note the mocker is back and now bullying the ladies.mr osullivan you do not like to hear psalms so how about yeats to make you feel more at home. "mock mockers after that......for we traffic in mockery".a mocker indeed. you have nothing constructive to say.you sneer and scorn and you are spiteful. your contributions seem to insist on your righteousness but i only have to remember your words on pollard:"i hope he rots there for 50 years and dies in prison" not much righteousness there or indeed forgiveness.not much human decency either.

``I am confident the Palestinian People will not fall for this cheap trick`` Yep because Jews like you are helping them understand our devious ways....

Look, let's get something straight her right now with this "they've attaacked us" again theerory as if it comes out of nowhere except a brutish heart. Palestinian point of view sees the conflict as beginning in 1967 with the occupation of the West bank and Gaza with peace understood to be a complete withdrawla from these areas. The Camp David accords, followed by the Oslo accords, tried to persuade the Palestinian leadrship that the best they could hope for would be limited sovereignty in the West Bank and Gaza, without territorial contiguity or a capital in Jerusalem. Further, the Palestinians were told that they could not discuss the issue of the refugees, one of the main reasons for the Palestinian struggle to begin with. This Right of Return had been recognised by the UN since 1948. But there was to be not even any discussion of what was central to the Palestinian position. Arafat, as leader of the Palestinian people arefused to sanction this deal as a final settlement when asdked to do so at Camp David in the summer of 2000. Then this humiliation was followed by the little strut of Sharon on the Temple Mount, surrounded by hundreds of police and secret service personell. Hardly just a walk by a single Jew wishes to recite Tehillim at his holy site! Of course Sharomn and his cronies knew this little toddle would be incendiary. A similar series of events is what set off the massacre of Jews in Hebron in 1929. Then in October of 2000, as a heated expansionism was going on full steam all over the West Bank, as people saw more and more of their land being confiscated with little redress, as they saw evern the 23% they had agreed to slipping away, they rose up with a fury and you are paying the price to this day. That is what the context is and it is those same issues that are preventing a peaceful solution to this day.

``Good idea, but the occupation of Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem must end first`` You s till aint got it..``East`` Jerusalem.... Jerusalems not up for negotiation east/west/north/south...its ALL Jerusalem...Jewish city..

It is easy to abuse each other verbally and otherwise over who is to blame and who is at the origin of the conflict.It is a lot more difficult to find a viable solution especially when people must sacrifice a bit from their extremist ideology and fanatical religious beliefs.Yet this is the chalenge.This is what a forum like this should do.Discuss the final status and how to achieve a viable and stable solution to this conflict. Building a strong and vibrant Palestinian economy and getting the Palestinians out of the refugee camps and into decent housing with decent jobs and social services absolutely necessary but totally insuficient. Basically the solution is quite clear for who wants to see it:ISRAEL WITHDRAWS FROM ALL OF THE WEST BANK,EAST JERUSALEM AND GAZA BEHIND THE 1967 CEASE FIRE LINE WHICH BECOMES THE INTERNATIONAL BORDER BETWEEN THE TWO STATES.THE HOLLY PLACES ARE INTERNATIONALISED.THE REFUGEES RECEIVE MASSIVE COMPENSATION AND/OR ARE HELPED TO GET OUT OF THE CAMPS AND LIVE A DECENT AND PROPEROUS LIFE WHERE THEY ARE.BOTH STATES ABOLISH DISCRIMINATORY AND INTOLERANT POLICIES TOWARDS MINORITIES WITHIN THEIR BORDERS. In this context raising funds to build homes for Palestinians especially the refugees is part of a fair solution of their problem and should be applauded.Alternatively the indiscriminate right of return "to ALL of Palestine" and the "eviction of the occupiers" as sugested by our dubious "friend" Leon "rose" something or another is actually a recipe for disaster and permanent war.Is there some consensus here among moderate smart and compassionate people on both sides of the argument?Or are we captive to fanatic bigots like this Leon guy and so many others?

'But would you be fair enough to look at the same pictures or shreded children whose only guilt was being a BY STANDER in a TARGETED KILLING.' You see, VoP, You have nailed the point without noticing it. The Hamas and Islamic Jihad officially call for the destruction of Israel. They consider Tel-Aviv to be occupied territory. I believe you have read the Hamas Covenant, so that you know what I am talking about. The Hamas target innocent israelis, regardless of whom they are. For those Palestinian organizations, the more Israeli children dead - the better. Consequesntly, those Palestinian terrorists considet the 7 million Israelis legitimate targets for murder, and they try to kill as many as possible. The Israelis, on the contrary, have no interest in targetting innocent Palestinian. Their only business is to go after those Hams members, Islamic Jihad terrorists, etc., who try to murder as many Israelis as possible, indicriminantely. For Israeli it is very unfortunate that innocent Palestinian get hurt. It is not our wish, or our aim. We benefit nothing from that. If there were no Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyrs, Tanzim, PFLP, Democratic Front, Popular Commities......there would be no Israeli firing on any Palestinian, because there would be no terrorists to take out. Then we could have sit down together, eat Humus, drink coffee, and solve our problems. 'What campaign are you talking about?' Haven't you read the Hamas Covenant? - Since 1994 they run as many bombings as they can to 'achieve' the murder of as many Israelis as possible. They do it on your behalf, VoP. And you suffer. 'I would like to show you my life now: it might not be as socking as your foto`s, but they are always there to see.' The difference is that a check pint can be removed. A demolished home can be rebuilt. As you know, a number of those in Raffah are used to illegally smuggle weaponse for the same operation that tries to murder as many innocent Israelis. If you want to hear my advice, I would say this: Go to Ramalla, to the Mukata. Knock on your president's office door, and demand to end the murder campaign aginst Israeli innocents. Ask him to fulfill his part of the bargain and dismantle terror organizations. I tell you strait away: If Palestinian terror infrastructure in demolished, and my family is not a target anymore, I will be the first to knock on the door of my PM, to dismantle all check-point, dismantle the security fence, get out of your cities, and sit down to discuss the final settlement agreement. Do we have a deal?

Joe, Please provide a current statement from the palestinian Authority that denies the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish State. Palestinians have recognised the State of Israel within certain borders since the mid '90's. You may not believe that acceptance, you not trust it, but that is your problem, not the Palestinians. The fact that Palestinians entered into negotiations with the Israelis attests to the fact that they recognise Israel as an independent state, a reality. Barak's offer was a no go from the start. There was nothing to negotiate. It was a dictate-take it or leave it, all encased in the three "red lines" which were not open to discussion- Jerusalem, refugees, and '67 borders. Taba came a bit closer to a more equitable discussion but Israel withdrew from that and Barak later felt he was not obligated to remain committed to any of the propositions that were put forward at Taba. Barak certainly saw the settlement blocs as a permanent areality on the ground and that would have cut deeply into the heart of Palestine. Palestinians, and Arabs in general may not like having to deal with Israel, but they are realistic enough to realise that they must compromise with the reality of Israel. To go on denying this is pointless and simply flies in the face of the facts. The majority of Palestinians realise Israel is a reality that has to be dealt with, for better or worse. The want more than anything for Israel to end its occupation, to get out and leave them to form their own state in dignity and pride. Israel refuses to allow them this right and hence the conflict and surge in violence.

Tity you should read Oriana Fallaci's latest book "The Power Of Reason". The perfect eye opener for brainwashed people like you

If we are digging dirt on Sweden here is my contribution: 1.The father of the present Queen of Sweden was an SS-man during WWII who fled to Brasil. This fact has been denied by the Swedish Court and the kingdom for decades and only some 5-6 years ago one of the Swedish morning papers confessed that it was true. 2.It was Sweden (together with Switzerland) who asked the Nazi Germany to print the letter J in the passports of German Jews trying to escape Germany in order to speped their deportation back to Germany as soon as they managed to arrive in Sweden. Yes, Danish Jews were smuggled into Sweden. But when? In 1944 when Sweden understood that their beloved Hitler won't win and reluctantly made a political U-turn. 3.Some of prime Palestinian terrorist were granted and will be granted asylum in Sweden incl those from the Chuch of the Nativity attack 4.When Irak invaded Kuwait the then Swedish Prime Minister Ingvar Karlsson said that "in view of the Palestinian problems I feel some sympathy for his motives".

If you hold onto the belief that the Israelis will withdraw to the 1967 borders then I'm afraid you will always live under occupation. You'd better make a deal now while you can as soon enough there will be no Jews for you to attack in Gaza and the palestinian areas of Judea and Samaria will be fenced off. You are in effect helping the Israelis imprison you. The question is, what will you do when you can't attack Israelis? What will you do once the security fence is completed and all offers of palestinian statehood have been rejected by yourselves?

Danite: No effort to push giveret yardena off the website. None at all. Asking her to relate her responses to the topic at hand. She is surely entitled to her opinions, God Knows, they are widely shared, but she needs to at least connect her response to the question being asked.

'let me ask you another question. Let`s take a state that would oppress and occupy the land of Israelis, expropriate their land for "reason of security", murder your people, poison your sheep, murder children, babies, parents and do collective punishement, imprison you, etcetc and deny everything...' What an excellent description, kay. Everythionbg you said - all of it, was eithet done or attempted against the Jews in their motherland, both prior to the establishment and after. '...would you accept this state?!!!...' - We always had accepted it. We accepted the two-state principal already in 1937, when the Peel plan was presented (even though we rejecte dthe borders offered). Palestinians rejected the very principal of two-state solution. We then accepted it in 1947, when the UN adopted resolution 242, but the Palestinians rejected. When the British left, on May 14th, 1948, Israel didn't prevent from the Palestinians to establish Palestine. The Palestinikans, out of their own fre will, chose not to establish it. We then proposed to turn the armistice talks in 1951 to peace talks, but the Palestinians rejected. Between 1947-1967, we never blocked the establishment of Palestine in the WB&G, with East Jerusalem as its capital. On May 17th, 1965, Israel's PM offered to end the conflict based on the then existing borders. Palestinians didn't respond. Between 1967-1977, it was the explicit policy of Israel NOT to settle in the midst of Arab populated areas in the WB. Yet, this was answered by 'The Phased Plan for the Destruction of Israel'. In 1980, when Sa'adat invited the PLO to join peace talks with Israel, we didn't prevent the PLO from coming. They didn't. Until 1993, for 26 full years, the PLO rejected UN resolution 242. We didn't make them reject that resolution for so long.

You have to look at a history book not written by palestinain hate breeders and can see that jews has a claim to israel WAY before palestinains even exitsted or arabs or muslims ni general (becuase palestinains never existed...it was either Jordan or theottoman empire....NEVER palstinians)

Haven't you ever imagined that i also dream of being i such a bus. Every palestinian knows that he or she does not have to fear buses blowing your brains up. But would you be fair enough to look at the same pictures or shreded children whose only guilt was being a by stander in a targeted killing. What campaign are you talking about? Do you think that we live our lives to think about the ways we can produce more pictures like what you sent. I have little nices and nephews, do you realise the impact that waking up at night on the sounds of bombing would produce in the minds of these children. I would like to show you my life now: it might not be as socking as your foto's, but they are always there to see. The could make the sane insane. http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=7583&CategoryId=23 http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=1715&CategoryId=23 By the way, the check point next to our house has been there even before i was born. checkpoints are not only a there for the last five years. We can keep showing each other pictures forever, if you were standing in my shoes, would you be the same as you are now, or would you be like me??????????????

Another moronic Haaretz article - typical leftist nonesence that hides the truth and as always blames Israel. (To the editors) (if you even read these replies) "The Palestinian Economy" excuse is a lie - there are plenty of rich arab countries that PRODUCE terrorists (Saudi Arabia, Yemen ect) Stop blaming Israel for taking back her own land - get a history book and move on. Khalid - your lies (Jews are a religion not a race) are pathetic and a sham - get some FACTS please. You keep talking about how you know what Judism is - apparently you never read the bible (you quote the 10 commandments) MAYBE read the Old Testament and you can see that Judism is intertwined with being in Israel - its in EVERY one of the 5 books. Every holiday is about Jerusalem.

Just one to quote Golda Meir's answer to the question put to her by a little girl in the US. The girl asked whether there will ever be peace in the Middle East. And Golda answered: "There will be peace in the Middle East when the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate us". I do not need to remind you of dozens of Palestinian minors (some as young as 12) who acted as homicide bombers (I prefer this definition to "suicide bomber"). Some attacks have been thwarted by IDF, some not. Mothers to these homicide bombers declared they were happy and proud of their sons and daughters going to heaven to enjoy 72 (or more?) virgins (by the way are female homicide bombers rewarded in heaven with guys who have never copulated?). So, that's the crux. Start learning to love your children more than you hate ours.

Just to correct your assumption, the Bush family and good ol' Georgie himself laid out elaborate receptions and gladly hosted representatives from the Taliban prior to his "election". Neoconservatives have no problems with this lack of judgement and character since Mr. Bush was pursuing lucrative oil pipeline rights through Afganistan. The Taliban ultimately said "No" but 30 days after the fall of the Taliban, Mr. Bush's newly installed Afgan government promptly contracted the rights to one of the Bush family's oil associates.

Regarding the aparthied analogy...I personally only use it to describe Israel's policy in the Gaza and West Bank...The Occupation is Israel's Aparthied System. Perhaps we need a new name for it? What happens inside the green line is A...democracy for all citizens and (as long as Arabs remain a comfortable minority) and B...large inequalities between Jews and Arabs in all spheres of life. In fairness, though, Israel is not the only country who practises institutionalized inequality. Saddly, it happens all over the world. Anyway, Wall or No Wall, the Palestinians should take Cohen's money and loans and run with it!

What you're saying is: Israel has a new Beilin! And that British Leftist financier Cohen is pouring money into strengthening Israel's genocidal enemies... Good luck Israel! Those that don't learn from history are destined to relive it...

Hey Franzen, good of you to keep the spotlight on Israel while ignoring the real victims of massacres and genocides around the world, who you deliberately ignore. This has also been the tactic of your own country, Sweden, in order to avoid addressing head on its own nefarious history: (1) Sweden, specifically Uppsala university, was the birthplace of race science which was later used by the Nazis to claim the superiority of the 'Aryan race' (2) After WWII, Sweden was a haven of refuge for Nazi fugitives, and the Swedish parliament passed a law forbidding any investigation of their crimes (3) During WWII, Sweden was a pro-Nazi 'neutral' country that supplied Germany with resources and allowed it to invade Norway via its territory. It also turned away tens of 1000's of Jewish refugees during the war. (4) During the WWII, hundreds of Swedes served in the Waffen SS, and were never investigated or punished afterward. (5) During the Cold War, Sweden was a pro-Communist, pro-Arab 'neutral' country. (6) Saab has plants in almost every Arab country in the Middle East but not in Israel. I'm sure I can dig up more dirt on Sweden, but until now I haven't considered it an important enough country to investigate. As for 'censorship', it is the Israelis themselves who investigate abuses in the army and make the army accountable, not your trashy, lying media.

Too bad the Palestinians aren't interested in a second state next to Israel, but instead of Israel. If they ever change that philosophy and think about what they can do with a state it might work. Its also too bad the arab countries, at least their governments aren't interested in having a second Palestinian state also. They could easily fund its start. I believe I read that a billionaire from Dubai wanted to help in Gaza. With plenty of Arab oil money it should be a breeze to create a second Palestinian state, unlike the difficulty Israel had when it was re-created and unlike the difficulty Iraq is having since its creation.

'The brainwashed children will never listen to those who send them to kill those children of their ages on the other side, if they were able to cross the check point and play together in the the zoo for example.' In case you didn't know why there are check points, here it is: http://600000men.com/book/wtc2_files/bus.jpg 'I can`t have the same view of a person of my age on the other side of the border because we totaly live different lives.' This is what I see from my side of the border, Voice of Palestine: http://www.likud.nl/Jerusalem%20May%2018,%202003.jpg 'Don`t you agree that bringing the Palestinian youth the quality of life that their rivals on the other side of the border live...' I AGREE 100% !!! - Why won't you make it a priority, and put an end to your mass murder campaign of innocents?? - Don't you see that this is the reason for check point, security fence, curfews, etc.?? - And anyway, why do you regard the 'children on the other side' as 'rivals'? - Why not relate them as just children?

What do you think would happen if any US presidential candidate met with Osama bin Laden or folks from Taliban ? Dr. Asmi Bushara met with Nasrallah from Hizbullah, with Asad & others who are sworn enemies of Israel & preach its destruction. Thankfully, the fact that Labor party membership is now 22% Arab fills me with hope. Israeli Arabs realize that spending time kissing Nasrallah in Beirut or hugging with Asad in Damascus would not help to get funding for programs in their communities. Some Israeli Arab Knesset members are alot more radical than their constituents.

My uncle will lose lots of money because he won't be able to get goods from his Palestinian partner in time to sell in his supermarket. Nevertheless, he'd rather have his family walk safely on the street rather than constantly fear to lose his children to suicide bombers. As you may well know, the Wall was originally proposed by the leftists (Labor Party which by the way has 22% Arab Israeli members)People on the right were totally against it. Nevertheless, as bad, as expensive and as intrusive as it is, the Wall saved many Israeli lives. Had Palestinian leadership worked on stopping Palestinian terrorists from murdering Israeli civilians, the wall would never be built. With the current window of opportunity, hopefully once the steps are taken in the right direction (peace efforts & disarming terrorist groups), there would be no need for this wall. Just out of curiocity - what do you think of some like Khalid & others who claim that there had never been Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount ? Or the claim that Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Khazars ?

Hope can spring from the most unlikely of sources. One hopes that Brigadier Gedineral Eival Giladi is truly an optimist. This Portland vision might be something that could work to begin to reduce the misery in Gaza. But where in this plan is the co-ordination with Palestinian leaders? Is Sir Ronald Cohen meeting with them. He apparently being Egyptian is an Arabic speaker. What will be the Palestinian participation in this vision. Do those involved in it see a link with economic development in the West Bank? How do they envision Palestinian economic development there as long as the occupation continues and Israel continues to support the colonial endeavor.