A nation of beggars

The author seems to lag behind in capitalizing this buzz word - colonialism. The academic left, (or rather the extreme leftovers) have made this one bread and butter of their analyses long ago. The catch is that the colonialists of today are the refugees/beggars of the (not so very far) past while the beggars/refugees of this day and age are the colonialists of the (somewhat farther) past and so on. Spice it up with the skiing habits of this colonialist collective and you get a crystal clear picture of the post modern Hebrews (compared with Joshua's gang).

so this site became a forum for neo nazis and rabid antisemites galore. Disgusting stuff, supporting Irving who knows well what happened but makes a living from freaks and nazis, Shame on you , we survivors who lost everybody and everything are hurt by you all over again

You should read also Imre Kertesz fatelessness , new translation . Still your fuhrers propaganda that Jews have soooo much clout anywhere is an old canard that is hard for you to forget,

It can't be a colony without a mother country. In that sense, the Arabs of Arabia-Ummah are more nearly colonialists in Palestine than are Zionists.

Andrew, I am impressed--you certainly seem to have your wits about you. I thought your idea was very clever. Please keep writing and sharing your ideas and supporting Amira and the Palestinians. This injustice has gone on too long. I am not taking it anymore and neither should the Palestinian people. Free Palestine Now! Cheers, Dutch

Right Dutch, if they only give our freedom and land back, we will not need anybody's donation then. we palestinians are smart and hard workers and we can make it by our own. I gaurantee you. By the way, we don't want to destroy Israel. I believe the whole world knows that, but this is ann excuse they keep repeating to justify thier occupation of our land.Cheers Salem

"the best way to defend the Israelis from terrorists seems to be doing that with a gun in the hand inside Israel." This is why I support the IDF and the Israelis in general. It is a matter of common sense. The only thing is that some people here are for terrorism and so they support those who murder Israelis and want the destruction of Israel.

The people the Yishuv bought off were prominent Arab families - which they would be by default as large land owners. The main reason that only 5% was bought was because the British made it ILLEGAL for Jews to buy land and because the Mufti's mafia were carrying out a campaign of terror and intimidation against "collaborators" - the majority of Arabs killed in the Revolt in 1936-39 was at the hand of other arabs.

Nur Masalha's "research" is no more based on "declassified Israeli archives" than your post is. What it is a cut and paste of Benny Morris's work, spliced together to the writer's prejudices - ie to show that Israeli is a racist, expansionist state. It is full of items that are - at best - ambigious, at worse, deliberately misleading. An example is Weitz's very short-lived "transfer commitees", which contrary to Masalha's portrayal were about transfer of property not people. Sit and think about a moment - the number of Palestinians leaving Israel was in direct inverse proportion to Israel's military might. Cut out the middle man and read Morris possibly counterbalanced with Yoav Gelber's book - both I believe are in English.

Haven't they told you in debate class that you don't have to mistake causes for consequences? You say that Israel bulldoze homes. This is the consequence of using homes to stockpile arms, fire at Israel from them, using them as factories to build explosives, etc. Haven't they told you in debate class that you have to tell the truth? Israel doesn't target kids. The fact is that the "Pals" use kids for terrorist purposes. And it is also true that when a 20 or so year-old terrorist is killed they say Israel killed a child. Twisting facts gets you nowhere. You say that when you support the "Pal" terrorists despite the evidence that they are murdering Israelis you are called an anti-Semite. What other explanation can there be to support the murder of Jews? Being in the Islamofascists' payroll?

"In this life we are judged according to how we treat others. " This is how it should be. However, you are not judging the "Pals" according to their terrorist deeds.

You all can't even read what Amira is trying to tell you.

"Hamas, Jihad, Al-Aqsa Brigades, etc. have always been attacking Israel. they have in their charters and proclaim that they want to destroy Israel through terror. The EU and the UN have been giving the "Pals" money. Israel has always been searching for accords. Some were signed and were broken by the "Pals". What else do you have to say?" I have to say that you and I should be careful with polarizing between Israel and the Palestinians. I can understand your efforts though, because I also feel somewhat impotent here, for the best way to defend the Israelis from terrorists seems to be doing that with a gun in the hand inside Israel.

Eugene, this Fritz from Berlin sat in his living room and read a book from Norman G. Finkelstein, a Jewish author in the US whose parents and relatives were killed in the holocaust. Very good writer - I recommend him - but you won't get his books in Israel. Other than that Fritz from Berlin is not a Jew-hater but a person extremely worried about Israel's future.

Hamas has been in Iran's arms for a long time. Iran supported them in the electoral campaign, and the Iranian government said to Hamas that they would be very glad and would support them if Hamas won. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Europe shouldn't finance them.

Do you call arrogance to denfending oneself? Does it mean the Israelis should let the terrorists kill them? Israel is no thief because it has stolen nothing, unlike the "Pals", who steal the international aid and want to rob the Jews of their country.

Amira Hass calls Israel defense against terrorism violation of human rights. Lack of humanity? So Israel should allow the terrorists to run freely so they can murder Israelis more easily?

Hello, Cipora. You are right. But the EU money meant to help the poor "Pals" went to personal accounts of Arafat and his followers. Does Amira Hass support the thieves or the poor?

Don't they say they want freedom? Then why do they accept money from a colonialist power? I don't know what happened to my computer last night. I couldn't open any page. Fortunately, it works again.

Dutch, Irving could have used the publicity of the Vienna Heresy Trial to bring to the world's attention that Holocaust? revisionism has nothing to do with antisemitism, but with historic research and debate. Revisionists like Butz and Rudolf have raised many valid points that put into question the veracity of many allegations that were made against Germany after WWII. Irving could have explained to the world press the reasoning behind Holocaust? revisionism and - hopefully - triggered a more objective approach to historic research, without fear of legal persecution. Instead he chose to do a Galileo. Andrew Winkler TheRebel.Org

Shalom, Part of the mythology is that Jews are omnipotent. The other part of the mythology is that all the trash is hugely important. That is how they justify everything.

Well you broke my batting average on azzam pasha but his ideas failed at theLondon conference because of pressurebrought by the Palestinians, that is clear.I will respond in greater detail tomorrow, you also misunderstood Jabotinsky completely whos platform included full civil and national rights for Arabs.More tomorrow.But you will understand if the Jews did not want to trust their fates to avowed Nazi the Mufti.More tommorrow.But thanks for the response.

Dear Andrew: I am delighted to see you are a Amira Fan. She needs all the help she can get here with all the apologists clenching their teeth at her on this board. Revisit us again, it is bedtime where I am. Gotta go, Dutch P. S. What do you think David Irving should have done differently?

your trife important...they don`t go after wee wee playin pishers....with no influence..do they? ahh you got it?...good...

The same inability to see any issue that the collective does not deem appropriate. Now there is group think.

Gemma, In this life we are judged according to how we treat others. Listing the various achievements of the Jews in the last month though impressive doesn't let you or them off the hook. Please no side stepping the issue here. Dutch

This problem is a real big problem of world economies today. But I think it is also an important step to become a third world country if you accept the radical parties receive power and if crime is almost legal. For me Palestine is joining a club of terrorists together with Iran,Syria,Lebanon,Chechnya and..North Korea

Well, Peter when I talk about a culture I believe I am talking about various groups (peace & justice) I am affiliated with in the region where I live which is knee deep in activism, troops of writers and academics; and colleagues and friends of various assortment and people ('fans") who have followed my writing on and off over time. Thus I can't begin to put a number on it as it runs in the hundreds if not thousands. And it you count their family and friends I have no idea where it might all end. However, the important point I feel I have been trying to convey is that there's a great regional shift away from Israel on the Palestinian issue. Thus, when I say to you and Israel change or we will change you this its not an empty threat. However, there's no hate there just moral outrage over the dehumanizing conditions the Israelis have imposed of the Palestinians. Dutch P.S. Contrary to post #186 people are not necessarily Catholic or Protestant or Jewish or Moslems or Hill Billies but they all share a strong commitment to human rights.

How do you become a third world country. Easy. You open your markets for foreign products without protection for your local economy, while being prevented to export your own products to the countries where your imports are coming from. Free trade? Yeah right, it's a one way street for the countries with the biggest guns. Andrew Winkler TheRebel.Org

Try reading the posts here. "All Zionists ague the same way".? Generalisation is a fault in logic. Anybody teach you that? Please go to Iran they need logic like yours. Talk about delusional.Mossad might kidnapp you.?? Now there are nice doctors who can help there.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Palestine would ( if independent) be for sure a third world country with no economy. Why ? Not because of cruel israeli politics but because of a (Hamas)Regime. How much money is dissappearing in third world countries or how much is really spent on useful projects ? How much corruption has already settled down there? A nation of beggars ? For sure. Could you imagine what could be done with the money already given to Palestinians ? It is not Israel`s problem nor Israel`s fault that their situation is so bad. Who attacked Israel several times ? Who sent suicide terrorists? Who is to blame that Israeli tourism went down because of terrorists ? Who declared war on who ? ( Jihad ).In my opinion U.S.and Europe should stop paying anything to this third world and mid-age place. If Gulf States want to finance them OK. But why to waste any more money for them which will dissappear or to be invested in firearms

Sorry, mate. Last time you came up with that suggestion, my reply didn't make it past a particularly zealous censor. So here you go. No, I have no trips planned to Vienna. Only a trip to Tehran, to prepare for a War Crimes Tribunal to punish Zionists for their crimes committed crimes against the Palestinian people. Maybe you should get Mossad to do an Eichmann and abduct me for the purpose of a Soviet-style show trial. How about that? I promise you to put up a really good fight, not just a Galileo-confession like the one Irving tried in Vienna in the hope of leniency. Andrew Winkler TheRebel.Org

Very funny, but what's your point? Haven't they told you in debate class that if you attack the person instead of his/her argument it only strengthens his/her position? Ahh, you didn't have debate classes, only lessons in how to shoot kids and bulldoze homes? Well, let me explain why: because it shows that you have trouble beating the other person's reasoning. But that's how Zionists argue, isn't it?! Simply accusing the other person of being an antisemite or terrorist, so you are automatically right? Fortunately that kind of logic only works for those who are already totally blinded by groupthink. Andrew Winkler Editor/Publisher TheRebel.Org

If Israel is destroyed...Israeli inventions from the past several months: -Israeli-American team closes in on cause of colon cancer. -International Arid Lands Consortium, Israeli experts in the Jewish ational Fund are helping other desertd arounto the world bloom as well. -Israeli dates grow with salty water. -Israeli researchers generate cancer-killing molecules. -The firts wearable tracking alarm device that can keep track of any person or object 24 h. a day. -Israeli device eases de burden of sleep apnea. -Israeli researchers develop vaccine that enables recovery of AIDS patient's immune system. -Israeli innovative bandages saving amarican lives in Iraq war. -Novel israeli treatment zaps tumors using light pigment for prostate cancer. -Israel winner of The Wall Street Journal's 2004 Technology Innovation Awards. -Silver award went to Given Imaging Ltd. for the "PillCam". And this is in the last months. What Pals did ??????

Imagine the publicity to such a nebish this trip would generate....

Not all but many ( as Russian orthodox) even the not very religious have instinct of hate for Jews/israel as result of a initial rejection of their "love" and their wishes to "save" Us to improve their lives. For example if in their joung age tryied to contact help or made friends with some Israeli/Jew subject and it did not work out.

This teenager has a web site with his mum and cousin over "Justice" The following is a recent post of his view of justice and compassion to an holocaust surviver "As far as the disappearance of almost your entire family is concerned, thanks to the internet it is getting easier and easier for lost persons to be found again. There are numerous organisations specialising in the search for lost relatives displaced during World War II they have been very successful. You should contact them. I can email you a couple of contacts if you like. Last but not least, your father's imprisonment in Dachau. To my knowledge, Dachau was the first Nazi concentration pre-dominantly used for political prisoners. Did your father experience anything there, that is different from prison camps in other countries? If he did, I'd be interested to find out. Andrew Winkler Editor/publisher/manager captain and president rebeliousmorons.." Andrew's watch

Have you read "The Birth of Israel" (1987) by Simha Flapan? Flapan's book provides some very interesting answers to the questions you are asking. So does Nur Masalha's "Expulsion of the Palestinians. The Concept of "Transfer" in Zionist Political Thought, 1882-1948". His sources are mostly based on declassified Israeli archival material.

very influential and Rich friends..ha ha ha ha Also at your seniors knitting class try get them all to boycott their Medicare meds as most of them are made by Israeli companies and ALL their doctors are probably Jews.... ha ha ha ha...

--was the leader of the Arabs in Palestine.No body can deny what he did,it did not help bring on peace. Why would any rational person beleive in a secular democratic society after what he did? If you buy a house and the tennant refuses to leave what happens.? To the best of my knowledge the Ashrawis sold land to the Jews.

The $142 million aid from Brussels is a desperate attempt to prevent Israel from pushing Hamas in the arms of Iran to create an excuse for destroying the one and only legitimate government of Palestine. Israel is trying to repeat what America did with Cuba, Nicaragua and many other 'recalcitrant' countries, discrediting them by leaving them with no other choice than accepting help of the 'dark force'. Sorry guys, you will have to concoct another excuse. Andrew Winkler TheRebel.Org

Just be honest enough to say what you really represent.

That is where your logic is faulty. There are no two peoples on the Land. There are jews and Arabs who migrated from Syria and Egypt. They migrated for economic reasons without proper paperwork (if current immigration laws apply). There is no reason to share when we can have them leave for economic reasons. PAY THEM and they will leave.The Armenians can return after their dispersion without solitting theu=ir country with the Angushetians.Why is Israel any different? Did the Jews return so that they can be part of an Arab Calipate?

Peter SM., However, I may be helping Haaretz or not -- my views here represent a whole culture that has moved away from Israel's hard line and won't have any more of it...... Dutch

Most of the land that the Jewish Agency managed to buy was from absentee landowners. The Palestinian peasants working on this land were removed by force and were replaced by zionist colonists. The objectives of the zionist movement - the establishment of a Jewish state through colonization and land acquisition - became well known in Palestine. Palestinian Arabs were not stupid and many could read. Jabotinsky for instance, accusing Labor Zionism of hypocrisy, stated: "Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population - an iron wall which the native population cannot break through. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy."

As a famous lady (doris Cadigan once say Israel should be destroyed for the benefit of the mankind this is the only just solution so the poor palestinian will be able to take back their land that once was theirs since the profet (peace upon him) spoke. a little excited Dutch

Amira Hass has the courage to tell it as it is. She commands respect for revealing the human rights violations of Israel, and her talkback critics exemplify the lack of humanity of this colonial apartheid state that so resembles that of So. Africa.

They had overwhelming numbers,kibbutzim held out for days with light weapons against Arab armored columns. When ovewhelmed the defenders were shot, despite Arab promises to the contrary,prior to surrender King Hussein instructed his troops to take no prisoners. Try to admitt the Yahuds fought well and your side lost its war of annihilation. I know "honour"is everything and reality cannot be allowed to intrude.

Kjj. It's going to take alot of moral capital to bring down a powerful multinational like Caterpillar. Thus, it would be unrealistic to see their stock coming down for a long time. It may take even more than what our groups are doing to bring it down. It's like David and Goliath but it isn't impossible. Dutch

Bob, before you call somebody misinformed and misguided, how about showing you possess some facts, not only questions? 1. You compare Gaza City to some provincial town (without indicating what the situation in Egypt is). Gaza City is the Capital city of the Gaza strip. It is not some negligible town. I wouldn't compare it to Sderot but to Ashkelon (not that big a town) which I visited many times. Of course MAIN SQUARE was paved. (Sderot's too, probably, but I haven't seen it to make an assertion.) 2.Indeed the Palestinians in Israel were employed in low paying manual jobs. I didn't state what they were doing. So? 3. Israel had industry before hi tech boomed inthe 90's. Textiles and clothing was very big. (not any more.) Machinery too. And small industry like flushing toilets. Diamond processing is also very big. 4. One doesn't know for sure what would have been the state of industry in Palestine without the Occupation. But I know they would have had a power station (eletricity)!

Ben Olofs, You say the Europeans ought to get together and send a strong message to their leaders that their support for the Israeli occupation is unacceptable. But I think the Palestinians need to take the lead and force this situation on Israel themselves. They shouln't wait any longer for others to act--they should take the lead! Dutch

--attacking groups of innocent Christians etc etc. Like your civilised buddies that you apologise for. If you do not like the way people speak here,does not match the personal high standards YOU display,why not go post in a civilised Arab paper. Feel free to agree with everything they say and save yourself the trouble.

Ben Gurion however was not interested in this concept of "Arab-Zionist alliance" against the West. He had just committed himself to the Biltmore Program, which envisioned a Jewish commonwealth in the whole of Palestine. He hoped that an alliance of sorts with King Abdullah would facilitate the transfer of the Palestinian Arab population to Transjordan. Abdullah was dreaming of creating a Greater Syria (with Syria, Jordan and parts of Arab Palestine). The proposals of the Egyptians, including Azzam Pasha, were doomed from the start. As regards the official Arab position, I quote from the statement made by Albert Hourani, in 1946 director of research of the Arab Office in Jerusalem, to the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry, 1946: "..the only just and practicable solution for the problem of Palestine lies in the constitution of Palestine, with the least possible delay, into a self-governing state, with its Arab majority, but with full rights for the Jewish citizens of Palestine.."

TODAY...Caterpiller stock went up today.. .YES TODAY!!!!! Wa wa wa ...its soooo frustrating for Doris.

Hello Danite, as you may know there were deep splits in the Arab world in 1948. Egypt, Syria and Saudi Arabia were consistently at loggerheads with Iraq and Transjordan. These differences were, in fact, the major component in the humiliating defeat of the Arab armies. The Zionist leaders and the policymakers of the Yishuv were very much aware of the deep splits in the Arab world and the general reluctance to make war. Eliyahu Sasson, the Jewish agency representative, held extensive talks with Azzam Pasha, general secretary of the Arab League, and the Egyptian prime minister, Ismail Sidqi Pasha. He concluded that Egypt had a vital interest in cooperating with the Jewish people toward a peaceful settlement of the Palestinian conflict. Azzam Pasha was prepared to discuss various proposals for a peaceful settlement, including a unitary state with full religious and civil rights for the Jews and partition. He hoped that the Jews would make common cause with the Arabs against the Brits.

What information do you have to support your claims? Did you compare Gaza city to some provincial town in Egypt in 1994? Bet its square was not paved either?How about Sderot, was its square paved in 1994? What Israeli industries are you talking about? Arabs were mostly employed in agriculture and building. Israel does not have significant ?industries? except the military and hi-tech. Does unoccupied Syria have industry? Before blaming the occupation for every Palestinian woe, double check your facts and cut the BS. Israel or no Israel, the Palestinian would have been in a deep shit by now anyways.

1)Inflicting economic pain on your adversaries is less harsh than killing them.2)There have been Arab boycotts and Arab attacks on of Israeli air and sea shipping, for the past 50 years. They don't hesitiate to undermine Israel economically, when they have the opportunity. War, it's called.

The palestinian are a very lucky people. We are told that they are victims of genocide, but looking at population growth would give a new meaning to the word. Note also that when the arab legion invaded jerusalem in 1949, jews living there were expelled, their houses and centuries old synagogues were destroyed. When the Israeli liberated the city in 1967, no arab was expelled and no mosque was destroyed. I understand that the Hurva synagogue was not rebuilt not to hurt the sensitivity of muslims as its dome would be higher that that of Omar mosque.

'Is this how civilised people discuss issues? ' No. The implication is obvious.

RE:Sorry bud, I have no interest in living under Hashimite rule as a Jordanian. Look at the map of palestine pre-1921. Why aren't the palestinians fighting against Hachemite occupation of this part of palestine. Why didn't they fight it when it occupied the westbank and Jerusalem?

You can call them whatever name you dont want pace the fact is that for some 1200 years their has been an Arab majority in the Land of Israel.They are not transients, most have their roots deep in the country.True there was important immigration of Arabs into the Mandate of Palestine in the 20s-40s but the large majority were born there.They have the same right as Jews to live in the land of their birth.They have the right to a state and thr right to equality in Israel.Two peoples were born in the Land and both will have to share the inheritance.We are the sons of the first marriage its true and they are the sons of the second marriage but we share the same Mother.Two states was the only logical solution in 48 and it is the only logical solution now.You must not be so inhuman towards them Pace.I know the evil thay have caused and the evil many are trying to cause,but they need to have a state and we need to let them go , so we too can be fully free.Two States for Two Peoples!!

Everybody in this world complains for the poor palestinians that suffer so much from the bad israelis. Of course nobody cares (except for lip service) when israelis are blown to pieces, as long as palestinians can have their comfortable lives. If the palestinians would stop their terror, then Israel will not need to take these measures to protect its citizens. yes the palestinians are victims, but they are victims of their own leadership.

Deja-vu crap over and over: you read one article, you read them all. One sided predictible s..t. What is also predictible is the substantial number of postings! I will personally stop reading her articles: will you?

Well said Peter. Blind, unmovable hatred to something completely blocks any rational to that particular subject. They can not even begin to apprehend how easily they are exposed on everything here. Combine that with mostly lies and deception they can stand on, and they can not make a step to the right or left from their demagogue. That is why their posts sound to me like the same, unchanged recordings.

"Fat Ugly Doris"...... EVER find a "NICE LIBERAL ARAB NEWSPAPER" Be kind to the doddering old coot she has a BIG enough CROSS(my heart) to "BARE." PUN fully intended.

How many time have I argued with those who think the Palestinians dont exist? Of course the Palestinians exist to say otherwise issimply stupid, dishonest or deluded.Please Ibrahim only the far right wingers living in their fanatsy world think like that almost all Jews understand and accept the fact of a Palestinian people.Dont let it get to you, their are many who think the Jews are not a people here as well, and who compare the creatio of the state of Israelto what happened in South africa and the american west.Ibrahim because I believe the Arabs were genocidal towards Israel in the past does not in anyway interfere with my belief inthe need for a two state solution as soon as possible.Dont let that stuffunder your skin!Regards

If that's all it took to qualify for being JEWISH ie racist & IGNORANT then your IGNORANT (proven) & RACIST (Jew & ISRAELI HATER) friend would be 100% KOSHER. But you see it takes a lot more than that, one has to be a MENSCH to start with so that rules the cretinous PATHETIC failure out in the first qualifying round.

YOU ARE HELPING THE HAARETZ CIRCULATION AND ADVERTISING REVENUE,HELPING THE ZIONISTS. FIND A NICE LIBERAL ARAB NEWSPAPER.

How do you know he's not jewish? Does one have to be ignorant and racist to be a Jew?

Salem, Have no fear many know who the real terrorists are thieves are today and their big fat lie will soon come to an end. Of course, the arrogance of the Israeli thieves is that they always blaming the victims and dictating the terms. Now many of their lines are stand up comedy acts and fairy tales. Cheers! Dutch

It can only get worse with Hamas commited to the destruction and ethnic cleansing of Israel. Unfortunately firing Qassems from Gaza sends the wrong message,it works against disengagement which the overwhelming majority of Israelis want. The Hamas charter unchanged is the worst possible message.

Of course Israel interferes with and destroys palestinian industry. But they are not destroying shirt factories. They are destroying bomb factories. That unforunately is the industry of choice in the territory. Israel would NOT destroy peaceful PAL industry. Hey you palestinians, why not give Israel a chance to prove this by discontinuing your insane war? What have you got to lose? Give peace a chance.

Is it a Dervish whirling around as if supported by clarinets sound ? No, it is barefooted Amira in a tranlucent tunic Shimmying ardently to sounds of clarinets music Her aging body held fragrant enticingly young By the poison stream from her forked tongue She dances alone for all her studied charms No man will ever fall into her begging arms

Kjj, I can appreciate why someone like yourself dismisses the boycott and divestment groups. But in Israel's case the multinationals targeted are specifically connected with the occupation and settlements . The heavy equipment manufacturer Caterpillar, the communication giant Motorola and ITT manufactures and the conglomerate Citigroup. Many individuals and groups are continuing their own boycotts and it is difficult to isolate and know their effect. But people are very committed to their end. The divestment groups are geared towards a long term gains rather than short term gains thus their effects won't show up right away. Nevertheless, more people and groups are added to the list weekly. When Israel talks about withholding funds and targeting the Palestinians people reach into their own 401K plans to help out too! There's one thing they all have in common is their deep resolve to see this human injustice end... Cheers! Dutch

Is "genocidal war" what you dd to the people living in the 23+ countries Islam took over? From Chad to Pakistan, is now Islamic - can you explain? Did all the billion+ inhabitants one day magically decide to become Muslim or was it that you did a DAFUR on them all? Maybe you kicked them out like the arabs did to the Jews. Tell me about the synogauges in the UAE or Saudi Arabia - go ahead please do! As for your 3 million ... Are Mexicans that illegally enter the US considered citizens cause they "say so"? Yes your there, but as always - it comes time to pay the piper and NOW is that time. After 5 wars which YOU started - its ENOUGH. Palestine was the ROMAN name given to Israel after it was conquered - are you Roman? You speak Italian? If 3 million Jews moved in France - does it make France ours? certainly NOT. We were there first, we were displaced and we learned after ww2 that the best place for us is HOME - Israel. (not withstanding the Pal muftis visit to Hitler in 43 right?)

...Needless to say it is this moral outrage that has spurred the divestment & boycott movement against Israel... Read my lips once more. INTEL Oh, I am glad to repeat this word over and over, knowing how sweet it sounds to your divestment ears. Seriously, nothing against you personally, I just do not like lies.

You state "how quickly small minded people forget history - it was Sharon`s provocative visit to Haram a Sharif/ Dome of the Rock that sparked the current intifada - it is more sharon`s war than arafat`s." Really?? That has been long discredited as just blain BS. The Palestinians made a conscious decision to go to war and too many have suffered from both sides. Don't you think it is about time the Palestinians started to accept some blame for their current state?

Twisted, corrupted thought and logic. You do put words on paper in high grade English manner. Just wanted to something nice. If your PA, Arab, and Hamas buddies would not have been hell bent on waging war they would have better lives. However, you may not be capable of logical thought. Remember the Nazis also killed the Kapos in the end. So would your Arab buddies!

So much effort in writing and discussions has been dedicated to a simple concept, taken for granted by every country in the world because it is so basic and unquestioned, as her security of existence, her borders, and her citizens. Yet this concept somehow is not applicable to Israel for the only reason of Muslim and anti-Semite hatred of Jews and therefore their state. The vary same Israel, who?s only few blemishes throughout history had arisen from being constantly forced to be extra vigilant and apply all sorts of extra security measures unknown to any other country. The security right, the #1 of them all , has been high jacked from Israel, armed with those blemishes and skillfully manipulated against her by the very same people that have made Israel the ?practice target? from the day she was born. I can understand their reasons and agendas, I can not understand Jews, albeit liberal ?progressive? minds, being blind as to not distinguishing the realities from the manipulations.

We are subject to a genocidal war by the likes of pace306 who insist we don't exist...we are ghosts in the wind...It's all a big lie... But what are we to do with these strange people, some 3 million of them in Gaza and the West Bank, who call themselves Palestinians...

Hello, Kim, How can she answer you about stolen goods? Her paradigm dates to decades ago. It is the paradigm of colonialism. How can the colonised steal from the colonalists? Besides, if there is international brotherhood, how can one brother steal from another? She isn't affraid of Hamas who talks about Salahuddin, a first rate coloniser, but she fears a tiny little poem. Go figure. Shalom, Cipora

Another sobering analysis by Ms Hass. American mainstream media needs to here her voice. Eds. let's see Cipora's poem to Amira. How bad can it be?

Hamas, Jihad, Al-Aqsa Brigades, etc. have always been attacking Israel. they have in their charters and proclaim that they want to destroy Israel through terror. The EU and the UN have been giving the "Pals" money. Israel has always been searching for accords. Some were signed and were broken by the "Pals". What else do you have to say?

If the Palestinians agreed to a Jewish state, they would have had their own state 70-90 years ago. However, compromise and the recognition of Jewish rights is not in their collective psyche-of course, Ms.Numnuts knows all this, but she never lets facts get in the way of her diatribes.

Something about him being a liar and being sent to the corner? I know hes in the US but it seems he was out that day in social studies - or his history book is the david duke edition. Hes got his panties in a bunch about the recognition of the transient arabs in Palestine - surely he knows who the original inhabitants were? Who was there before Mohamed and his mob? who was there before Jesus was even born? "Palestine" never refered to arabs, it was the name given to Israel after it was capturedd by the romans. There was never a "palestinian country" it was always under rule by others after the Jews were displaced. There werent postage stamps, currency nothing. Ibrahim can wewrite history all he wants, it wont help. Present mistakes? That would be arabs denying Jews as the original inhabitants and the arabs refusal to leave.As well as thier systematic destruction of jewish holy sites, cemetaries, books and culture.

Take your time by all means.Keep in mind what the Mufti was doing in WW2.As I mentioned Abba Eban tried to work something out with AzzamPasha was noted for his more moderate and rational views.I am not engaging in evasions Ibrahim.I ma not Israel is or was perfect.Anway I look foward to continuing the discussion, at least you have the nerve to get into it.I was not exagerating when I said I have NEVER EVER recieved a response about that stuff, nor the 5% issue.Thats what I like about Palestinians you have courage.Regards

Thank you Amira. If we Palestinians dare to say the truth like you did, we will probably be arrested if not killed. Of course for being terrorists. What a free country..?

When will Amira Hass write an article about where the money of the internationa aid went for so many years? The EU and the UN has given the "Pals" lots of money. Why is the PA bankrupt? Would Amira Hass writting an article enlightening us on this question?

You are not the spokeman for non-Jews. I am a non-Jews and support Israel fighting the terrorists. The terrorists who attack Israel are of the same kind as those who attack us non-Jews and who murdered van Gogh.

The 142 million to the Palestinian terror leaders will be used to blow up Israel buses and shoot Israeli's in the head.

Amira Haas, really!!! Before the Jews started with their settlements in this country it was a flourishing green land, excellent agriculture with huge exports and with wonderful large cities. Only when the Jews came they ruined everything in order to make the Palestinian population destitute. Who beleives you this tale? The fact is that the Palestinians are runing themselves and always did.

Why did you censor me this time? It was just a little poem to Amira, and not a very good one at that. Does she get so many poems?

Bud, I can't do this instantaneously....as far as evasion, you are pretty good at it yourself.

Kim, In don't know in what way it is valid for Israel that the state's authorities have different interests than the population, but when I sat in a Youth Hostal in Grenoble some years ago and I listened to the story of an Algerian Berber, he sad: the government pays the terrorists to make the people ask for aid at the government.

I see my bating average on Azzam Pasha will remain perfect.Its as I expected, you have no answer.Israel was not interested in war with the Arabs, all prevailing military opnion at the time was that Israel would last a few weeks at most and Ben gurion was told that directly.I didnt really expect an answer because the answer is clear.The intetnions of the Arabs in 1948 was to destroy Israel and its population and expell the rest.Your evasions prove my point once again.Thanks Azzam Pasha gets the Arabs everytime.As does my question on the 5%.

The article protest that Israel is freezing the terrorists' money and call it robbery. If we compare this to the Israelis robbed of their lives by those terrorists, what is worse? Has the author ever protested the "Pals" robbery?

The cause for the restriction of movement is terrorism. Didn?t the ?Pals? commit terrorist attacks, they wouldn?t have restriction of movements. It is clear that they don?t mind about their own economy. Otherwise, they would have stop the attacks on Israel.

The ?Pals? themselves destroy the agriculture which was given to them as a gift. Remember they have destroyed the greenhouses twice. When the greenhouses were owned by Jews, they gave jobs to 10,000 ?Pals?. And Amira Hass doesn?t protest the destruction of the greenhouses. I think she doesn?t care about ?Pal? agriculture. What she protest is the fence which will protect the Israelis from ?Pal? terrorists.

returned to Damascus or Cairo with a peace agreement with the Zionists he would be a dead man within hours" "Nonthe less the Arab States unlike the Palestinians agreed to the establishment of Palestine as an arab democratic state, all Jews actually residing inPalestine would be recognised as citizens and recieve munority guarantees.Musa al Alami the Palestine Arabs chief representaitve at the London Conference was distraught at the the Arab sates more flexible postions,..he finally succeeded to convince most of them to accept the Palestine Arabs stand.Only Egypt and Azzam pasha remained adamant about giving the Jews minority and democratic rights"pg86 "The Birth of Israel, Ben Gurion and his critics"JOseph Heller.So tell me Ibrahim what were the Muftis intentions???Once the Arab states had adopted the palestinians postionswhat was to be the fate of the Jews under an arab victory.I look foward to your answers.Please do look up Azzam Pasha you will be the first in history to give an answer.Good for you!

Why should Israel give money to those who want to kill Israeli citizens?

You are forcing me into a corner, Danite. Do I really have to forward you a referenced thesis on how the early Zionists disregarded the existence of Arabs in Palestine? How Israel's early leaders did everything they could to avoid making peace? Straight from horse's mouth, including the mouth of Ben Gurion himself? So Jews have a monopoply on genocidal victimization? What am I suppose to make of the persistent refrain from your buddies: Palestinians don't exist? I happen to take it mean: Ethnic Cleansing, Mass Transfer... Sorry bud, I have no interest in living under Hashimite rule as a Jordanian. Frankly, I think we should focus on the present than on mistakes of the past...But if it is the past you are interested in, you will surely find Israel was as guilty as Arabs for the mess that became the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

has probably formed his views on the World politics reading the pile of old "Der Sturmer" newspapers carefully preserved by his parents in the cellar of the family home.

Israel is robbing nothing but freezing the terrorists? assets, which is done by more countries, even the US. And the EU should give nothing to the murderous gang.

Should be let through on your Humanitarian grounds, plastique, detonators, TNT, nails, nuts & bolts, perhaps a few more AK47's Or better still a couple of SAM's. Surface to Air Missiles to you, LAMEBRAIN

Now that you have posted to me I hope Haaretz will now post the response I ahve tryign to get through for the third in response.First of all,who are you to wave the flag at american Jews.Your patriotism is politicaly motivated to induce Americans to anti jewish feelings in order to turn them against Israel and a more "neutral" stance towards the Arabs.The Jews have served in all of Americas wars since the revolution so get off your hypocratic high horse with your phony patriotism.Please do look into Azzam Pasha and then you tell me if my characterisation of arab war aims in 48 as genocidal are farfetched.Please tell me Ibrahim what were they? What was to be the fate of the Jews in Palestine under the rule of the Mufti??Pleasedont waste my time though with nonsense and evasions okay?On oct 14 1947 Abba Eban met with Azzam Pasha and offered "cast iron"guarantess agaisnt any Jewsih expansion and arrangements for regional development.Azzam replied"that if he or any other leader returned..

The lady does not understand that Israel's enemy democratically voted for war. It is exactly the thinking of a man walking out in the rain and exclaiming that someone is urinating on him.

Except the Arabs of course..officially anyway ,but Israel still manages to import oil..guffow...ha ha ha. Israel`s economy is chugging along quite nicely sans Palestinian labor. Denmark at the moment has been hit harder by boycotts than Israel ever was... DUTCH ,HOW FRUSTRATING IT MUST BE FOR YOU !!!!!

"Officially, the Palestinian land in the West Bank and Gaza is occupied land. Israel is legally responsible for the well being and security of the palestinians under the Geneva Convention. Israle is getting away with a lot of things , one of them is the financial and economical responsibility.Israel is the ultimate perpetrator of misery on the palestinian people and the world must confront her with this reality and compel her to rectify the damage that it has inflicted on the Palestinians". Abu Ali, Well said! I agree with you Israel is the ultimate perpetrator of human misery and we must all demand that our countries' aid to them be withheld until they end their cruel and inhumane occupation and illegal settlements. The Palestinian people should be free to determine their own future like everyone else. Free Palestine now! Dutch

Amira, You are right is wasn`t a natural disaster that transformed the Palestinian`s into suicide bombers,and Israel`s cruel and inhumane travel restrictions just inconveniances them further and frustrates their murderous intents. In order to murder and rape, all terrorists must be allowed to roam at will to gather their bombs and explosives. Thus, what Israel is doing to the Palestinian suicide bombers is cruel and inhumane as they are taking away their ability to murder and spill Jewish blood as they have sworn to. Needless to say it is this moral outrage that has spurred the divestment & boycott movement against Israel .Yet everday there`s more and more mega investments in Israel. Nobody but NOBODY is heeding my calls to disinvest.The Israeli economy continues to grow,as Tel Aviv`s Stock Exchange rises. Its SO Frustrating.You have NO idea Amira, Your bestest friend, Dutch. PS: Weight Watchers hasn`t been such a success story for me,but thanks for asking.

I could not get microprocesser evaluation boards sent to Bir Zeit 10 years ago...they were a donation from the company I was working with, and somehow they never made it past the airport...they were intended as educational tools.... With Israel's high tech industry and her lack of engineering manpower, the Palestinians would be perfect candidates to help fill the voids... One day, perhaps.

Danite, I will look into Azzam Pasha and his Plan and it's subsequent rejection by Arabs. While I do this, I will gladdly forward you a few questions regarding Israel's posture post-1948 and their general disdain for all attempts to forge peace...Once I referred to a 1950 UN reconcilliation conference where Aziz Shihadeh, A Christian Palestinian from Ramallah, was shunned by the Israelis after he told them the Palestinians were ready to make peace...The Israeli answer was: We only deal with the King of Jordan... Anyway, I am glad you were humored by my references to "genocide"....now you know how silly you look when you keep insisting on genocide against the Jews by Arabs... It's a laughable and highly unproductive rhetoric.

"There`s no one to blame for the Palestinian economy other than the Palestinians" David Teich, Amira is right. You are just blaming the victims of Israelis polices. After alll, who wants to buy fruit & vegetables and flowers that rot and wilt behind check- points and what business can operate under such conditions let alone grow and thrive? Dutch

The EU can spend its gelt how it wants, but to say its for the Palestinians' economic decline that is a product of the Israeli occupation is nonsense. Gaza's Palestinians got a turn key operation with the hothouses left behind. How can they expect to be able to ship it on one hand, and use the other hand to lob bombs at Sderot, Ashkelon, and even the Erez crossing point. Gimme a break!

Israel has been forced to open up the Karni crossing to humanitarian AID, to be brought in tomorrow, see pressure works. Let's hope that no obstacles to humanitarian AID is raised and that the food and medicine goes through without a lot of the ordinary nonsense from the occupiers reluctancy to have all those children get the neccesseties. Free Palestine!

Bravo Amira, very right you are in your analysis. Being a European, I am ashamed about the lack of political pressure of my government towards Israel. Continue with your articles!

Beggars are harmless. Maybe they disturb the eye because they remind us of what our life could be or maybe in the future if our personal search for appreciation or our ruthless egoism are insufficient. In the city centre, in average, I give them 50 cents or a euro.

Abu Ali, I agree with Amira, but when you claim Israel is the mother of all the trouble... If you guys didn't try to wipe us off the map in 1948...etc... there would be no 1967 occupation and you would enjoy much better life. Israel is wrong on many accounts but we didn't start a single war - it was all imposed on us, from literaly the second day of our existence (leaving aside pogroms in Jerusalem and Hebron even before the state was created), and even if our responce was sometimes exagerrated and stupid, we are not the only ones to blame. Most of all, there is a very respected and articulate group of Israelis arguing for human rights of Plaestinians - out of the pure humanistic reasons. Show me one Palestinian besides Nusseibeh telling that killing Jews is immoral and should be stopped on the moral, not pragmatic grounds. It's not a big deal promoting peace when your aggression has failed for 50 years and your face is smashed every day. Even Hamas is asking for "truce" ...

I don't think palestinians want easier restrictions, but truth is that they are not going to get even those with their current way of action. If they wanted, they would have got their independent state already, but it seems that they pursuit fairy tales and endless conflict rather than start thinking rationally. For now the situation is not about what someone else would be satisfied with. It's about how the hell can this crisis be solved, so that both parties suffer something (because frankly, there is no way the other could ever get everything they want). That's where rational thinking is needed. So far I have seen nothing else than idiotic war mongering and kocky attitudes from palestinians. No rational dialogue, no rational offerings to negotiations, and no willingness to compromise on anything or do anything concrete to get anything in favor of reasonable negotiations. That's why I say that they seem to like conflict and war more than getting something good.

Amira, You are right is wasn't a natural disaster that transformed the Palestinian people and their economy from a sustainable economy to one that is forced to relies on handouts but Israel's cruel and inhumane travel restrictions. In order to grow and thrive all animals must be allowed to roam at will to gather their food. Man is no different he needs to roam at will to gather his food and trade his goods. goods. Thus, what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people is cruel and inhumane as they are taking away the Palestinian peoples' ability to grow and thrive to promote the colonization of Israeli settlements/settlers. Needless to say it is this moral outrage that has spurred the divestment & boycott movement against Israel and it will continue until Israel ends the occupation and settlements. Still, I agree you are right -- it is Israelis that stands to benefit form the EU's donation of 142 million dollars they as there would have been the object of moral outrage. But at the same time it does demonstrate the EU's unwilling to use economic pressure to force Israel's out of the territories and that's something the Palestinians should be worried about. Dutch

I guess this policy is more than stems from just the security concerns, and it promotes terror in at least two ways. First, they feel helpless and hopeless; this pushes youngsters to all forms of resistance and makes older people sympathetise with this - they don't see any other way to get life back to the normal track. Second, as any people not working hard and regularly, they become spoiled, upset, irritable and more prone to all kinds of violence in general. Pay attention, the first intifadah broke 20 yrs after occupation. You would think, grown men would revolt in 1967 - but no, they were busy providing for their families and didn't give a damn about "national identity" and all this crap. Then the new generation came - spoiled and irritated by alternating ski-high one-day income when they were permitted to work and forced to laziness if we would close the territories. These youngsters felt they have nothing to lose, and had all the time to talk themselves into national idea.

Over the many years of occupation, Israeli policy was to prevent industrialization of the Territories. This way, the Pals would become consumers of Israeli goods, while at the same time "exporting" cheap labor to Israel. (All this is recorded government policy.) The Intifada made things worse for the Palestinians. They can no longer work in Israel, and have a harder time even exporting their agricultural products. I remember how appalled I was when I saw on TV Arafat's return to Gaza City (1994), under the Oslo Accords. The road and central square were unpaved! I realized right there what damage the Occupation was causing. It is good that Europe is providing some money for basic PA needs. As far as the Israeli witholding PA tax money, I am not too worried. About half the sum is used to pay Israeli companies for electricity, water, and such basics. These payments will no doubt be deducted from the witheld funds. The rest will be covered by Iran and friends. Why do it, Israel?

As for the statement that Israel deprives the Palestinians of their rightful tax money, what about infrastructure such as water, electricity, sewage, etc.??? Who should pay for that??? Israel?? Why doesn't the Jordanian government pay for the West Bank (they owned it but didn't want it back in exchange for peace, I wonder why? could it dilute the control of the monarchy??) Why doesn't the Egyptian government pay for Gaza (they owned it and made peace 26 years ago, but didn't want it back either, wonder why??) Answers from the "peanut gallery" would greatly be appreciated.

You wrote "the palestinian land in the West Bank and Gaza is occupied land". I wonder in which planet you have spent the last 6 months that you seem not to have read or heard that Israel transferred all the 8,000 Jews last summer that had lived in Gaza, and that Gaza is now judenfrei, under the government of the enlightened Hamas. Perhaps you don't know but in 2000 the then Prime Minister of Israel offered to Arafat practically everything that this gentleman wanted. Arafat refused, to the amazement and disappointment of Clinton, came back to Gaza and was received as a hero. By now the Palestinians would be celebrating in a few months the 6th anniversary of their state. The day that the Palestinians stop blaming others for their own deficiencies, will be the start of a new messianic era.

Palestinian leaders are notorious for ripping off other Palestinians. Witness the millions of dollars Arafat appropriated and Suha now possesses. If I were a Palestinian, I would take Suha to court in Europe! But Hass is right. Israel isn't making the situation any better. It seems from a distance that Israel is hoping the Palestinians are just going to pack it up and move somewhere else but that isn't realistic. Some may leave but the rest just become more radicalized. If you want my opinion. Begin adopting some Palestinians as Arab citizens of Israel but make military service mandatory. That's the only way Israel and the Palestinians will bond! Jews and Palestinians have to become one under Israel!

It is so funny how the entire world chooses to look away from the realities of life today. Al Qaeda blows up two gigantic buildings murdering innocents (which is against the Koran). Bush orders attacks on Afghanistan which the world supports because the Taliban harboured Al Qaeda. Arafat and his successors continue to grab money for an infrastructure of "security" which accomplishes nothing. It is just a money grab from donors. Israel returned Gaza and left valuable greenhouses intact that would have generated millions for the Palestinian economy, yet Abbas stood by and allowed them to be destroyed along with synagogues which could have been used for other purposes. There is a self destructive bent to these people that unfortunately doesn't seem to be changing.

I was owndering when you where answer my question of a few days ago about Azzam Pasha.I asked why was his plan to have a Unitary Arab PalestinianState on all the Mandate but with equal religious civic and human righst for Jews rejected.And what can we infer about Arab war aims in 48.Also I asked about the 5%, how can that figure be used to justify Arab claims in the 20-40s that 'THE JEWS ARE TAKING OVER THE COUNTRY AND EXPELLING THE PEOPLE" and then in 47 justify Arab oppostion to partition because the Jews didnt own enough of the country to justify the amount of land they got.To date I have NEVER recieved and answer from anybody I have ever asked those two questions to.Excuse my curiosity I just wanted to see if I would continue with a perfect bating average.

No ones holding them back Sully, if/when the arab occupation of Israel ends -they can then concentrate on joining the family of nations. As the map of the world shows muslims from chad to afganistan (africa/asia/europe) you can hardly claim theres some "zionist occupation" now can you?

Yes you would have that opinion. Arafat gave away nothing, he merely sought to insure that he continued to line his pockets at the expense of the Palestinian people. Arafat led by fear and could have controlled terrorism if that was his goal. Instead he chose to play the martyr pushing the buttons on his control panel. He knew full well that Israel would never do anything to him. They bombed out his building all around him to make him look like a martyr so he would garner more support with his people. It is all about credibility. He could have reigned in terror and showed the world he had his finger on the button. But he chose to insure the misery of his people by lining his and his cronies pockets to insure the misery so he could keep getting the money. Bad Israel!!

1. "Israel is occupying nothing" 2. "The ?Pals? ruled by Israel have seen their living conditions improved" The two statements are made by the same person, in the same post and even in the following order! A genuine pearl. Kim are you sure you need anyone to bother answering your postings?

"The occupied territories were Jordan in 1967, so if Jordan is now ranked at 90 in the Human Development Report of 2005 ou`ll agree that 102 represents slippage" You are warping the stats yourself. You must keep in mind that the major factors to the growth of Jordan (and it has been within the last 10 years, not the whole since 1967): 1) A moderate government that moved towards "democracy" 2) Direct involvement by the government to expand the economy of the country 3) Open trade policies with the US None of these factors ever entered into the growth of the Pal economy - no Pal governments were moderate, no Pal governments worked to build the economy (except their own pockets), and the Pal violence thwarted a proposed Free-trade Zone between Israel, PA, and Jordan - with the open US trade policies. So what do you expect? Furthermore, to compare the PA to a non-Muslim, openly democratic country with strong labor unions is absolutely impossible.

Cemeteries and their future should be decided by the religious community that uses them. Only. According to your argument, since Jewish graveyards were vandalised "everywhere" then Israel has the right to act as others acted toward them and desacrate cemeteries of other religious communities. Again, I pose the question to you. What do you think happened to all those Arab cemeteries in the Galilee where there are now kibbutzim and moshavim which were once Arab villages? The fact of the matter if this were a Jewish cemetery and the Muslims were building a mosque on it there would be much weeping and wailing and gnashing of Jewish teeth, and you know it so dont deflect the argument by attacking my person. That only undermines your own.

In my humble opinion, there still is a difference between likud's support for land conquest (name it grab if you like) or kadima's policy of keeping the main settlement blocks & Jerusalem, without denying the concept of a future Palestinian state, and hamas' policy, which does exclude Israel's recognition, hence aims at its destruction, and which supports suicide bombings. Admittedly, it's a pity that only few policy makers on both sides are really willing to come up for the only realistic solution (2 states). Hopefully we shall not wait for a Palestinian Saddat and a new Begin as long as for the Messiah !

You might as well try inverse the reason and consequence talking about the voluntary crisis. Your "...when [Palestinians] allowed Israel to ease restrictions" phrase is quite a tell-tale one. You must be misinterpreting the Palestinian aspirations and crisis if you think that all they want is "easier restrictions". If anything, start to "rationally thinking" not by checking how much Palestinians could get from you, but by examining if the Israelis ever were satisfied with living for good under someone's "easy restrictions". If not, replace "rational" by "private" and the "thinking" by "behavious". As for the second part of your post, again, I guess Saudis would make a far better "oasis from the desert" in Israel's territory if only Israelis were ready to tolerate some "easy restrictions" of SA.

Amira Hass is the human face of the decent Israelis and I hope the the Israeli public listens to her. She is honest and does not beat around the bush. Officially , the palestinian land in the West Bank and Gaza is occupied land. Israel is legally responsible for the well being and security of the palestinians under the Geneva Convention. Israle is getting away with a lot of things , one of them is the financial and economical responsibility.Israel is the ultimate pepetrator of misery on the palestinian people and the world must confront her with this reality and compel her to rectify the damage that it has inflicted on the palestinians.

Amira: I am truly appalled by your attitude. It is very difficult for me to say this but you are a a self-hating traitor. Sure Israel has made mistakes and you have every right to criticize. What is distrubing that 1000's of YOUR people have been killed by acts of terrorism and that is why the innocent people on the Palestinian side are where they are today. Yet all you do is blame Israel and the victims. There is no other nation in the world that tolerate this type terrorism and you know that. If g-d forbid such acts would happen in my home country you would I know that our government will do all it can to ensure our safety. I am appalled that Haaretz allows you to write your digusting articles.

As the Israelis are in control and the occupation continues. if you dont want the palestinians to blame "the Jews" for everything (assuming that your statment is true)then get out of their faces and let them develope their own economy free of occupation. You will not do that and yet you will continue to promote the view that the occupation and its expansion has nothing whatsoever to do with the atate of the palestinian economy.

Kim Hi Oh yes,surely if they do it is tantamount of accepting colonialism is it not Ha?So,acceptance of financial help is out of the quasion! Well said... Haaretz please print!

They should put pressure on the PA for them to give the stolen money back.

Sully' I'll take BM anytime instead of you Yaaki'ugh! The dead have as much right as the living.True but I couldn't possibly comment on this subject.I'll tell you why,for starters,Jewish cemeteries,plus graves have been vandalized everywhere.In Israel by your loved arabs.Then at other places in Europe.So, don't come here with your platitudes about the Museum being built by removing graves of arabs.Here in the U.K they are doing the same irrespective who is burried where.In view of the fact that the cemeteries are so full there is no more room for burials.Please keep your sympathy for others of the loved ones you may still have living where you are.Don't waste your breath and words here to us.We know what is necessary and it will be done with outmost respect.The Jews are very respectful about this sort of thing,surely you know this. Haaretz Print!

Arafat and his faithful became rich by stealing what was left of the handouts after paying the terrorists.

Amira wants to throw the whole problem onto Israel but the Palestinians in a free vote picked Hamas because of their hand outs and how ironic it is that they need hand outs now and Israel is being blamed. Take back the vote or change the charter calling for the end of Israel and then expect help from Israel.

You are wrong : building settlements all over the occupied territories can hardly be called taking "drastic measures for protection of citiziens". Before all this "change", as you said, Palestinians were indeed "working all over Israel, building big homes for themselves and earning money, also moving all around the country" -- but so did the pre-state sionists. So why did we send the British home ?

So 500 million Euros a year since before the Oslo accords is handouts?

The occupied territories were Jordan in 1967, so if Jordan is now ranked at 90 in the Human Development Report of 2005, you'll agree that 102 represents slippage. You gave comparative statistics for neighbouring Egypt and Syria too, but none for Israel. Why would you compare the occupied territories with Yemen, Sudan or Morocco? And if you insist on doing so, why didn't you also compare them with Greece or Italy for instance?

You dont understand why people take offense to the lies she prints? Take ANY one of her "articles". Its a 24/7 nonstop Israeli Bashing Enterprise. Never mind she supports terror and the people that commit it thru her articles - as an Israel, the self hate is overwhelming! She went on and on about trees - th epolice themselves said they had no evidence - yet its always "the jews". Its not my fault she has no sence of shame and that she prefers the enemy over her own people. The people she supports launch Kassams, blow up cafes and buses, steal Jewish landmarks and Jewish heritage. What should we say to her? "gee ur a real nice gal"? The arabs occupy 23 countries including 1/2 of Israel - when is enough, enough?

You have explained eloquently that the EU is in fact indirectly supporting the continued occupation. What is needed is relentless political, economical and cultural pressure until Israel withdraws from ALL the territories occupied in 1967. It is everyone's duty in Europe to send a clear signal to our governments that enough is enough. Even those who are sympathetic to Israel should realize that the Israeli state is en route to self destruction and needs to be protected against itself. Freedom for Palestinians to live their life in dignity!!

With all due respect, it is not possible to evaluate the content of a story without examining the facts contributing to the author's bias. If she lived in Israel instead of somewhere in the Palestinian territory her bias be different. If she socialized with Israelis instead of Palestinians her bias would be different. If her neighbors were angry not at Israelis but at Palestinians her bias would be different. In other words, by living with the Palestinians she has been co-opted by them and their views. She is their friend. She is a protected person.

?It is Israel that ought to be pleased that the Western states will continue compensating the Palestinians for the economic decline that is a product of the Israeli occupation.? Here I don?t agree with Amira Hass. Israel cannot be pleased since the aid given by the EU goes to finance the terrorists who attack Israel. Israel is occupying nothing. The ?Pals? ruled by Israel have seen their living conditions improved. When Arafat took power, the ?Pal? domestic product decreased quickly in spite of the fact that the PA was receiving zillions in international aid. The problem is that the PA's interest has always been war instead of improving the living conditions of the people. Israel has always been under attack, and you can see the results of the Israelis? effort.

Lets see, the Palestinian economy didn't grow under Egyptian and Jordanian occupation and annexation. From 1967 until 1993, it grew at a rate that put the Palestinians near the top of Arab standards of living. Then the Palestinians took over. Arafat and his cronies embezzled a billion dollars. They then continued the war of destruction against Israel. The cynicism of Arabists such as Hass and poster 63, that ignores Palestinian violence and corruption is obvious. There's no one to blame for the Palestinian economy other than the Palestinians. When you quit blaming everything on Jews, you might learn to solve your own problems. Make peace, end corruption, and the standard of living will again rise.

So, now that she cant write a fake tree article, has expended her list of left wing groups that claim fake checkpoint attrocities, a terrorist's best friend Ms hass now advocates giving money to the enemy. Was she asleep during the past 2 weeks when Marshal declared - no recognistion no peace? How about when he said he wouldnt honor ANY previous agreement? How about when he said he wants to do a dracula on all jews? Weakening the PA in any of its forms (its a hydra - chop off one terrorist head and another one grows) and then Israel can set the tone. Continuing to feed the monster is a mistake - one that should have been learned from Germany in 1939. The money she claims belongs to the Pals is 1) used to compinsate Israelis for kassams 2) pay for the IDF expenditures for defense needs 3) Israeli electricity and water. Hass's goal is to feed the like of Hamas,the IRA, to Hamas, Black Spetember, Basque seperatists, Brittany seperatists, to the Sandanistas ....

No, the ?Pals? should not welcome the European aid. If they accept it, they will be accepting colonism.

Karni is closed because of a terror threat and you know damn well that the Palestinians have so often attacked Karni that it is stupid for Israel to keep it open. The PA has to guarantee 100% security for Israel that Karni will not be abused for terror infiltration nor be attacked. They could not and do not want to. Now with Hamas taking over the security and policing services Israel cannot count at the PA guaranteeing security arrangements anymore. Of course because Palestinians cannot go to universities like Bir Zeit where one had exhibitions of Jewish salami pizza's really is the reason for the poverty in the territories. There are millions of educated Palestinians outside the territories who do not want to return to the territories because of the gangster economy and muslim fundamentalism. Christian Palestinians are pushed out of the territories by Muslims. So keep to the facts the poverty is the fault of the Palestinians themselves. Amira knows this but does not want to admit it

"Only American pressure on Israel will work, but instaed the Americans have chosen to support and bankroll the occupation". So you really believe American administration or Congress have the option of pressuring Israel to do anything Israel doesn't want to do and/or that the US are really at liberty to choose how to configure their own ME policy? Give me one example when that happened. Show me one US politician who dares to speak up against the lobby that finances 40% of all American campaign money. While the Israeli tail waggles with the US dog American politicians have no choice but to obediently continue with taking and executing orders received from Jerusalem via Wall Street or else to face the consequences: end of career.

The point is that they cannot take issue with her arguments. They are verifiable, so they must resort, as they always do to perseonal attack- on her ability as a journalist, that she is an Arab lover, that she is a self hating Jew, that she is a fifth columnists, that she has her facts wrong and on and on ad nauseum. They have been reduced to this because they no longer have justifications for their position and that has and is becoming clearer and clearer, thanks to the efforts of journalists like Amira Hass.

Limited Economic Prosperity means nothing when you are prohibited from expressing your national identity. The Infamous Iron Fist policies in the West Bankd/Gaza were ratcheted up immediately after the Camp David Accords between Egypt and Israel. Then they were ratcheted up again when Israel invaded Lebanon and laid seige to Beurut. I myself witnessed in the summer of 1987 Israeli soldiers dragging an old man out of his house to clean graffiti on a wall...The graffitti was simply a Palestinian Flag. The biggest problem in solving this conflict is the self righteous ingornance on the part of the Israeli people...

Hey Amira, you are so boring, if you were not so biased against Jews and Israel, and also serving as the mouthpiece of Palestinian and Arab Propaganda, you and your "brothers, Farnzen and Dutch" make avery good team. G-d creates them, and the Devil brings them together, in this case you guesed right, the Devil is Haaretz

Yes, of course, it is Israel's fault. It always is. It has nothing to do with the corruption or incompetence of the Palestinian Authority or their inability to stop suicide bombings. It has nothing to do with the fact that they rejected a solution and responded with waves of suicide bombings. Israelis just have a perverse desire to colonize Palestinians for no reason.

As El-Birawi pointed out, the oslo accords indeed were de facto not more than a security arrangement. During the Oslo years the Palestinian economy remained subject to israeli policy in all important fields. Israeli policy was to prevent the emergence of a viable economic base in the Palestinian territories, a prerequisite for a viable Palestinian state. The result of this policy was in fact dedevelopment. This term was first used by Harvard's Sara Roy to denote the continued weakening of an already underdeveloped Palestinian economy as the result of deliberate Israeli policy.

"But frankly, how would you feel after Israel`s forthcoming elections if it appears that e.g. Avigdor Lieberman`s party gets an overwhelming majority ???" First, Avigdor Lieberman`s party is more on par with the Jihad movement when compared on the basis of extremism. Hamas is more on par with Likud. Which as you know, has been elected time and time again into power with a mandate to pillage and destroy my country. Israeli's have been voting into power certified terrorists - vis a vis Likud - long before Hamas came to power. Take a good look at Kadima's political platform (Retaining settlements in the West Bank, retaining the ENTIRE Jordan Valley and NO discussions over Jerusalem) and you would understand that Israeli's plan to bring into power a party that will take all the steps necessary to undermine the possibility of a viable two state solution. Soon enough Israel will find itself in a sitation where over 3 million arabs (at least) will be demanding citizenship.

You are missing this: economy of palestinian territories can never be developed, if their main objective is continuing of the crisis by all means and cost. It is true that their economy was boosting when relatively quiet times allowed Israel to ease restrictions. Was it because or in spite of occupation (or "occupation", depending on view...) does not matter in that at all. Also, they were offered just about everything they can EVER get (rationally thinking) but insted of seeking end for crisis, they chose to ruin it all. It is ironic that Israel has really buildt most of development in palestinian territories. In my opinion it shows very clearly the priorities of palestinians: conflict and arms come first, everything else can be forgotten... now they get the consequenses. Well, you got to learn cause effects some day... even if you are palestinian.

Whether or not you or your il take me seriously is hardly the point. To get such an inane repsonse from you is a compliment, not a discredit to me or my views. Who do you care for bm? It is clear that you care nothing for Palestinians either living under your occupation or resting in a cemetery which you have no qualms about desacrating to build some so called museuam of tolerance. Even disturbing the dead does not disturb your conscience. Hopefully, posters on this site will take that seriously. Land can be stolen not just from the livbing but now the dead.

I agree with you that there has been tremendous corruption under Fateh, although I disagree that minor looting of the greenhouses caused much economic loss. The closure of Karni - punishing all Palestinians by preventing them from exporting their goods - caused far more damage. The longer term economic problems for the Palestinians, I would argue, are because students cannot travel from Gaza to univesities in the West Bank, because average Palestinian workers cannot routinely access their agricultural lands, and not because Ms Hass chooses to live in the West Bank. Israel has an obligation to provide security for its citizens, but should not cause severe economic stress to the Palestinian people to achieve this. My initial point was that it only undermines ones own credibility when people attack Ms Hass personally, rather than taking issue with her arguments.

I agree with you that there has been tremendous corruption under Fateh, although I disagree that minor looting of the greenhouses caused much economic loss. The closure of Karni - punishing all Palestinians by preventing them from exporting their goods - caused far more damage. The longer term economic problems for the Palestinians, I would argue, are because students cannot travel from Gaza to univesities in the West Bank, because average Palestinian workers cannot routinely access their agricultural lands, and not because Ms Hass chooses to live in the West Bank. Israel has an obligation to provide security for its citizens, but should not cause severe economic stress to the Palestinian people to achieve this. My initial point was that it only undermines ones own credibility when people attack Ms Hass personally, rather than taking issue with her arguments.

There is a war,isnt? You know,you answer.No answer you wrong. pd:what do you spect,shelling palestine people?

A new Palestinian poll published to gauge Palestinian opinion following last month's election triumph of the Islamist terrorist group, Hamas, has found that only 50% of Palestinians want a Hamas-led Palestinian Authority (PA) to recognize Israel while an overwhelming 83.3% of Palestinians insist on the so-called 'right of return,' by which tens of thousands of Palestinian Arabs who fled Israel during the 1948-9 war and millions of their descendants would flood Israel and destroy it from within. The poll was carried out by the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion during February 16 - 20 from a random sample of 1003 Palestinian adults over the age of 18(Independent Media Review Analysis, February 28).

Well Jonathan I pity you. The back ground of the one who writes an article often shows how one should see the 'facts' in the publication. Amira decided to live among the Palestinians and together with them she decided to twist the truth in favor of what is clear to an economist like me. The mess is due to Palestinian mismanagement and lack of Arab support. Amira recently started to attack Israel in an unreasonable manner even portraying Hamas as a sweet and innocent charity. As soon as she gets to her senses we will stop correcting her. The Palestinians have destroyed the greenhouses in Gaza, which could have offered them income. They attack industrial parks and kill Jews there. This is at the root of their economic problems.

"Gee, what am I missing here?" you miss the key factor - that nobody takes you seriously - some shnook sitting in NY pretending to be Jewish and pretending to care for the Palestinians - oops sunshine who cares? BM

very selective is her memory. Haaretz, this is not honest journalism. She deserves to be fired.

In an editorial in today's NYTimes, Saeb Erekat writes that according to a recent poll 70% of of Palestinians still support Abbas and his peace program while 84% still want a negotiated settlement with Israel. Hestates the reasons for the election of Hamas as related to the ongoing occupation and Israel having done nothing to relieve its effects on the lives of palestinians and the levelof internal corruption rampant in the PA. Amira Hass substantiates this argument and shows how this ongoing occupation is, not without planning and intent, working to not only weaken but destroy the palestinian economy. While Bush and his cronies, ever worried about loosing the backing of Jewish organisations, closes his eyes and bobs his head and wonders why the Mideast is exploding with hatred for the US.

Of cause Oslo was a security deal for Israel. Israelis and US were looking for the Pal state (I will be honest, not exclusively for Pal benefit) without Israel committing suicide at the same time, and Oslo was the best option allowing for that. Arab League opposed the deal for the same reason. The Pal state would have meant for the terror to be no longer warranted and unacceptable, and Israel would have to be dealt with as is (what Israel wanted). They thought they could have this deal anytime. That is why they instructed Arafat to walk away and try the terror first, with the hopes of getting something better whereas weakening Israel as much as possible so to have an upper hand in any future demands or in dictating the terms of any agreements. Maybe to the point if the opportunity presented itself to get rid of Israel altogether (I doubt it would have ever happened), it could have been achieved.

You're absolutely right Tareq, Hamas' landslide victory will unfortunately enhance the programs of the extremists on both sides.Some would say, as Groucho Marx put it in one of his movies : "This means war" (hopefully it's not). But frankly, how would you feel after Israel's forthcoming elections if it appears that e.g. Avigdor Lieberman's party gets an overwhelming majority ??? Probably as agressed and disatisfied as the Israelis when they learned of Hamas' election score.And it remains to be seen whether Hamas will one day moderate its stance (I doubt it, but who knows ...).

Is based on the premise that the suffering of the Palestinians in the occupied territories is all the fault of the Palestinians, who as Arabs, are simply not capable of any significant growth except subcontracting textiles, as in South America where the Arabs make it and the Jews sell it. As for movement of goods and produce, well, hell, let them take the 14hr trip through the rafa crossing and they should be glad they have that! He implies that thanks to the Israelis, the palestinian economy before 2000 was booming with the Israelis cheering them on and supporting them in every which way, helping to build that airport in Gaza and develop the port and really giving a boost to agriculture by these detestable colonies that would take land for their own agricultural development. But heh, the Israeli occupation is a blessing and if only the indolent would learn from the ways of the productive! Gee, what am I missing here?

instead of responding to her points (i.e. whether Israel should or should not impose a collective punishment against the entire Palestinian community that has long term economic consequences, and whether this is proportionate to Israel's legitimate security interests), many people have posted remarks that attack Ms Hass herself. If you don't agree with Ms Hass, fine, but real debate is not name calling and accusations against the person; it's about the content of her remarks.

Did you have in mind the two Israeli reservists who were lynched in Ramallah when you wrote "israeli customers don`t go to buy cheap goods from palestinian towns in the west bank not cause they are killed there but because the racist israeli government has legislated against that movement. It brings to my memory the murder of two dear friends, who had a restaurant in Shenkin Street, Tel Aviv, and went to Kalkilia to buy some ceramics for their place. Then they went to a restaurant, and while they were eating masked men came, took them away, and killed them. I will give a copy of your e-mail to the widows. I am sure that they will find it a great consolation to learn from you that Jews can safely visit Palestinian towns.

...that Palestinian economy was quite well BEFORE this so-called Al-Aksa-Intifada? Palestinians had a quite good life before 2000. Why did they ruin it by starting such a silly fight? Free Gotland - Gotland back to Denmark!

Peter More of the same with Amira.Of course we all know the truth which she obfuscates in order to garner some kudos.But unlike the outstanding Caroline Glick who has won accolades and is a genuine Jew,with the concern for her people,is something Amira will never achieve.She has chosen her metier,and is committed only to demonization of her countryman/women.She never once decried the atrocities committed by the ones she cherishes.That says it all. She doesn't realize that irrespective of the Hamas in these passing days are no proof that things will imrove an iota.Well,let her spew the usual,we are inured to it and do not expect anything worthy to come out of her lips.More's the pity,more's the shame.What a specimen of the deluded woman called Amira...

The comments about Amira Hass are not vitriol. She is entitled to her opinions. And the people who despise her, for her one sided reporting and for her untiring and obsessive efforts to blacken the name of Israel (she was once sued for libel, and lost), which, she willingly, nay, enthusiastically, uses to provide, and if necessary invent, munition for our enemies, are also entitled to their opinion.

What is the sound of a tree falling in a forest, if no one is there to hear it? What is the sound of a Jew being shot near Nablus if no one except Amira would be there to report it?

Bill You are saying what has already been discussed ad-nauseam here.We know the whole situation by heart.You are wasting precious breath. These people will not achieve their goal unless and until they begin to work and put their energies to good use in-lieu of just terror and mayham.I do not envisage any concrete change now,or in the near future.Pouring more money into their coffers are not the answer to the problem.They have a large begging bowl with a leaky bottom.The bottomless begging bowl!And I'm telling Amira this surely BEGGARS BELIEF...

dov It seems to me you are not dov,BUT A DOVE! Who are you to critise The right? The left are a bane to Israel's security.Worry not,I have read many of Madam Amira's articles and the conclusions never vary.Blame is always Israels.If she only contributes once,once I say,in thinking of her people it would give us some satisfaction.Does she ever think about the very poor in Israel who are living on the "Bread Line",and never any compassion shown by her.The many butchered for the past five years,and since the inception of Our State,and even prior to it.Does she ever?Not on your life.As far as I am concerned she has become an irrelevant Jewess. Have you noticed the usual repetitions of the check points,the oh so poor PAL farmeres,the depredations and suffering etc. Please give us a break from the Amiras of this world.We have enough with the bleating from the detractors of our country without her's as well...

in addition, 4) israeli customers don't go to buy cheap goods from palestinian towns in the west bank not cause they are killed there but because the racist israeli government has legislated against that movement - making it a crime for an israeli citizen to be in palesitnian populatin centers. still many find a way around these restrictions to continue to buy and trade in palestinian areas. 5) How quickly small minded people forget history - it was Sharon's provocative visit to Haram a Sharif/ Dome of the Rock that sparked the current intifada - it is more sharon's war than arafat's. 6) i'm sure your economic analysis of middle eastern economies is based on vast knowledge of the topic, no? in any case, amira's analysis is not based on the socio-economic, political and historic constraints to productive economic growth in the reason but rather the ways in which the israeli occupation has consciously "de-developed" the palestinian economy.

Bill - let me tell you what is boring already - your arm chair zionism. why not actually come contribute something to the cause of peace, justice and equality for all in our corner of the world rather than make misguided and uninformed statements from chicago? 1) allowing a bus to leave Gaza and go to west bank does NOT destroy the territorial integrity of Israel. not any more than you destroy the territorial integrity of the US when you take a plane to NY. In any case, Israel signed a deal (you may have heard of it - the Oslo Accords) in which they promised to respect the territorial integrity of West Bank and Gaza. 2) If you bothered to read the signed agreement on the Rafah crossing you would know that it is for passengers only. No goods can be transported through this crossing but rather through the often-closed Karni crossing. 3) In order to safeguard against PA corruption all EU funds that go directly to the PA (vs. to non-governmental orgs) go through a World Bank trust fund

So much for freedom of speech. Ms Hass raises interesting points to explain how restriction of movement has had severe economic consequences for the Palestinian people, and instead of engaging in debate, too many people have ranted and called her names. Is this how civilised people discuss issues? It is possible to argue that collective punishment for the Palestinians is not a good thing, and that poverty may breed further terrorism. I am glad Ms Hass continues to publish and promote an alternative perspective.

Hamas and their charter offer you nothing more or less than an opportunity to continue your land grabs and subjugation of a whole population. I fully understand the charter and find it distastefull, anti-semetic and erroneous to say the least. Nonetheless, what does that have anything to do with my corrective response to Bill Pearlman?

By now, it is clear to all, except the Fatah guys in Ramallah, that Oslo was security treaty between Arafat and Israel whereby Arafat and his PA are hired as security contractors for Israel. That is why the continued support from US, Europe and Israel for Fatah/PA militias. In reallity no one gives a damn about Palestinians, the only thing the world and Fatah/PA gives a damn about the 60,000 gun holding militias that form the backbone of Fatah and Mahmoud Abbas. These 60,000 in addition to the IDF are the source of insecurity for the Palestinian people. One would think the Europeans and the US support 60,000 teachers and hospital workers and not militias. But then Arafat and the PA tried and continue to try and sell Oslo as a Peace Agreement with Israel. Perhaps Saeb and Yaser Abed Rabou can take a second look and read the text of Oslo to discover it is nothing but a business deal, where Arafat/PA/PLO became security subcontractors for Israel.

In January, the World Bank held up transfers to the PA because it did not meet benchmarks. The World Bank has become a go-between for donor countries, also supplying accurate reporting info. It is accepted by all sides to the conflict.Note what the World Bank wrote in its report of November 2005: http://tinyurl.com/h9tyo

Israel doesn't care about the 4th Geneva Convention and they don't care what the world thinks about their occupation and the devastating impact on the occupied people, but one thing they do care about is US Aid. Israel is also a country of beggers, with Military AID; Econimical AID; Diaspora AID and "Loan"(nod nod wink wink) guarantees AID. Without it Israel wouldn't work, it's 17.000.000 US Dollars/day, without it Israel could hardly afford their ruthlessness. Charity keeps it evil. As for the Palestinians and their devastated economy, its all part of the occupiers plan, if they wanted the Palestinian economy to flourish, the Palestinian economy would flourish and so if they want undernourished children, there you have them. The AID to the Palestinians from the EU and others isn't enough to keep the children healthy, but just alive. Only American pressure on Israel will work, but instead the Americans have choosen to support and bankroll the occupation. Free Palestine!

The EU has played a double standard game for far too long and left everyone confused. Israelis tend to see the EU as the symbol of a traditional anti-Semitic and thence anti-Israel body, ready to condemn Israel and praise the Palestinians. The Palestinians see the EU as a last resort of aid. But in the midst of this, EU countries and companies within them trade with and fund industries in the West Bank, lending legitimacy to those settler based entities. This despite the 'deal' with Olmert 18 months ago restricting settler produce to a named list and causing the Israeli government to subsidise trade penalites when the settlers didn't comply. Who says its all fair in love and war.

Amira Teeth each and every time,JUST STOP THIS CHARADE!Abbas is one of the same coin of his predecessor,THE RAT ARAFAT!THEY ARE ROLLING IN MONEY!Don't you get it yet? They keep begging and demanding,it is the only thing they like and do.Thistime the begging BOWL has become a BOTTOMLESS ONE!NOT FOR LONG THOUGH!JUST GIVE IT A LITTLE TIME.PEOPLE ARE GETTING THE MESSAGE. I will remind you of one major factor.Their Billioner Arab brothers do not contribute,and when they do it is a pittance.And you know why of course.They are still holding them as PAWNS AND HAVE DONE since time immemorial.You remain mute on this part of the story,deaf too I fear. Things hopefully will not last long and we can see the back of them IN JORDAN!ONLY SOLUTION. Then more killing,but this time they will kill each other,and good riddance! Don't you dare demonize Israel any further woman!Keep your thoughts to yourself.You do more damage,rather than good...

"We`ve often heard the lie put forth that occupation is what brought the Palestinian economy to its knees". "A basic fact in an economy...you must work to earn" See again the facts above in the article describing consequences of pragmatic Israeli control. There are many "basic facts in an economy" and one of them is that to 24/24h work in one's orchard is not sufficient for economy if there's systematic impediment of water,electr., transport infrastructure, market for realization of goods etc etc. Meanwhile even the orchards are destroyed. If you justify strikes the Israeli or American employees stage for adding few $ to salaries or improving conditions you will certainly understand the numerous "parades" of those "Pals" whose not only property and means of production are destroyed, but lives too. Literary and regularly.

And as we said before she should be relocating together with HAARAETZ TO GAZA or Saudia --this way both of them will have sure objective opinions on PLO , homosexuality , human right , arabs trying to destroy all and pure thought that we are sure will take "deep route " among nomads and savages.

True Amira, they are beggars. More importantly miserable, angry beggars. Exactly who every post 73 war Arab ruler envisioned and wanted. What a double whammy, stick the miserable Pals like the thorn into Israel and easily sell the blame of misery on hated enemy thus uniting their own uneducated, religious masses against the ?perpetrator? and which also distracts them from the internal revolts. Thirty some years later many rulers are gone and forgotten, so are the original, true reasons for the blame. The ?evil Israel? was so convenient for so many agendas, by so many people and nations, they were carried so vigorously and proudly over the years and became an axiom. Which of cause conveniently accommodates every Israeli basher today, even educated ones like Amira. But beware of what you wish for Amira. The misery, with Al-Qaida, Hamas and Iran, also extended beyond your and Arab rules? comfort.

I keep wondering if Ms. Hass is vile, inept, or plain stupid. Let us look at some data provided by the UN (not exactly the best friend of Israel): According to the Human Development Report 2005, the quality of life in the "Occupied Palestinian Territories" is ranked 102 out of 177, which is worse than Jordan (90), but better than neighboring Syria (106) or Egypt (119). It is slightly worse than in oil rich and rising nuclear power Iran (99), but much better than in pro-western and stable Morocco (124), to say nothing of Sudan (141) or Yemen (151). The infant mortality is almost 50% lower than in Iran and about 1/3 below the infant mortality on the other side of the border, in Egypt. The life expectancy is twice as high as in the most African countries and higher than in Egypt, Iran, or even Russia. I guess you can credit all this on "Israeli occupation".

#4 should understand that in an occupation, only the occupiers have the poser to end the "war" he talks about. The occupied can only harrass. The continued hostilities are therefore Israel's choice - it's that simple. #15 reads like something from the former soviet bloc, in which everything worthwhile was invented by Russians, but now apparently, Israelis. Yes Israel has done well, but they have also borrowed heavily from the brains of other nations, as well as drawing off more than their fair share of the available water in the area. There is nothing commendable about this sort of slanted opinion. It is good that Amira Hass has the courage to express her shame at the apalling treatment meted out to anopther race by her own people.

Let us not pretend it is all quiet and peaceful. There are almost daily Qassems including the day of disengagement from Gaza. The message was loud and clear,nothing complicated,an evacuated area is a launching site. That is war. Which part of the charter do you have trouble understanding.?

I'm genuinely curious as to the number of actual Israelis(Sorry frazen) who were not cognizant of the woes caused by the security measures, and weren't at least under the belief-to any degree- that these policies were the fruits beared out of the current conflict, and thus to some degree 'deserved.' As I said, perhaps my callousness is a luxery of distance, but I thought that the likely mean response on a domestic level would be between, "Your point being?" and "And I should care about this more than my family's safety because..."

Amira Hass writes: "...restriction of movement have existed since 1991". Could this have any relation to the fact that this was the period when the Palestinians, who since 1967 had a more prosper period than ever before, decided that violence was the best policy? Or is it just a coincidence?

No, not really. While I do empathize with her in discribing how Palestinians feel attacked and sabotaged in their economic pursuits, I was just curious as to why this was considered a sly, or subversive attack, when it's more or less pretty obvert. Perhaps I'm being the orientalist, but from my interpretation, there exists a state of conflict, and these measure are designed to be preventative in nature for the benefit of ISRAELI citizens - not implimented with the objective of minimizing the day-to-day lives of palestinians. Essentially, it is a latent punitive militarist counter-insurgency approach - not some liberal-reformist attempt. I honestly do not have enough information to really say what most Israelis and not talkbackers desire, but as far as I was aware, successive support for governments who were engaging in this doctrine seemed to evidence such support.

Amira Hass conveniently does not mention that the Palestinians, per capita, have received more money from Europa and the United States, than any other nation. This money could have been used to create industries, hospitals, schools, roads. Instead, it somehow found its way to secret accounts in Switzerland and the financing of Mrs. Arafats good life in Paris. Ms Hass also doesnt mention that the Palestinian Authority has not paid Israel for the electricity that it receives. In other words Israel is subsiding the Palestinians. But her worst distortion is to ignore Hamas frank objective of destroying Israel, an objective which does cost money. As you know, Kassams and bomb belts dont grow in trees. They must be paid for. It would be too much to ask Israel to turn the other cheek and contribute to its destruction.

I think, that Israel indeed should praise, may be not aloud, the Europeans. Since no peace is possible, it's an Israeli interest to get rid of responsibility for the Palestinians, to build the fence between them and us and to limit the interaction with them to minimum, may be only to fighting terror, emanating from this society. So, if somebody else is ready to pay the bills of this violent, aggressive, inefficient, failed, fanatic society -- why not; it's just interest of Israel to rid itself from this swamp.

The local economies of many ME countries are oil-based. It was fine 40 years ago when everyone received from the profits. Today, most citizens are uneducated and the money is drying up. Israel had no oil, just brains and braun. After 1948, the world turned its back and only Jews brought money through donations, with a turn of events in 1967 to offset the Soviet influence. Yet... extremely valuable technologies emerged from Israel - Internet, satellite/cellular communications, water purification, agriculatural technologies (Gazan hothouses, for example), medical research....in less than 60 years. It can be done! And there is no way occupation can (or has) stopped the potential of this growth. In 1999 and earlier, the standard of living in the Pal areas was very high. But we Israelis should probably realize that it is our fault for existing, and if we can only cease to exist, the Pals will be more interested in science, math, art, and State-building....of course, Amira.

With such a large number of Palestinians living beneath the poverty line, I remain amazed that journalists are still required to explain that a parent without employment who cannot feed his family will become desperate and will blame those who prevented his freedom of movement to work, or for his produce to be exported. Palestinians are amongst the most educated in the Arab world, and while the PA must accept much responsbility for its unbridled corruption and failure to invest its aid, the Israeli Government's continued policy of forced destitution onto the Territories will ensure this crisis continues for generations to come.

If its too complicated for you, why dont you just give it a rest. Maybe you would save yourself some embarrasement... "One, free movement between Gaza and the West Bank, territorial integrity if you will, desstroys Israels territorial continuity." Israel must accept "transportational" contiguity just like Palestinians are being forced to accept it. "Second, the Rafah crossing point is not in Israali hands. Produce can go that way." False. Rafah terminal is a transit point for people only. The goods pass through a transit point on Isaaeli soil, controlled by the Israeli ports authority. "Third, there is no accounting transparency in the PA and no legal authority." False. Since the finance ministry was run by Salam Fayyad, the US, ISrael, World bank, IBRD and IMF all agree that accountability and transparency are in par with international standards. "Fourth, it`s difficult to attract Israeli customers" Open access to Israeli Arabs is sufficient to prove you wrong

We've often heard the lie put forth that occupation is what brought the Palestinian economy to its knees. I beg to differ...strongly! A basic fact in an economy...you must work to earn (unless you're a politician). How these "workers" have time to parade around every other day is beyond me. Since businesses are forced to close by militants, it's no wonder no one can do any business. Second, most Pals worked in Israel. Once they started the Intifada, is it any wonder why the borders would be closed? After many incidents of Pal workers attacking their bosses (especially those who sneaked them into Israel to help their families) is it any wonder why a boss wouldn't allow them to keep their job? Finally, Gaza has been in the hands of the Palestinians for many months now. Besides the hot houses (many destroyed already) used by the farmers, what other institutions were set up to create jobs and work? Why not follow the US work programs of the 1930's that built infrastructure?

Ms. Hass puts the finger on the sour spot for Europeans: while always criticising America, they are (not openly) paying service to American policy everywhere. In Israel, Palestine, Irak and now Afghanistan, where the dum Dutch slaves (to America) are going to without any clou why. Its hard to be a cowardly and hypocrite European, believe me! Maybe we're lost forever because we are the ones responsible for the Holocaust. Ooh, if we could just built an army like the American one and kick some (American) ass, would'nt that be nice.

The years between 68' and 89' were years of unprecedented growth in the Palestinian economy. Then the violence which began in December 89' and in essence has continued to this day undermined the Palestinian economy. Ms. Hess is apparently unaware that Arafat was a student of Ho Chi Minh. And he followed the party line which says that one must make every sacrifice, even of the well- being of one's own people , to destroy the enemy. Perhaps Ms. Hess' forgets that post- 2000 Palestinian glee at the decline of Israel's economy. Their thought was they can take more destruction than we can. But to their disappointment the Israeli economy did not die because of their violence. Instead the Palestinians once again injured themselves.

Amira, why don't you even once try to think, WHY Israel puts restrictions to palestinians. It's utter bullshit to even suggest that Israel should just smile, open doors and give up everything in the face of continuing terrorism, rejection to be recognized and everrything else that makes palestinians no more than it's worst enemy. If palestinians want to continue violence and conflict, that's what they get - including economic impact of it.

In 2000, when the Philistines started their self-destructive war of attrition, 98% of the Philistine population was living under Philistine rule- NOT Israeli rule. Not only that, but they had a budget SURPLUS. Not only that, but they were on the verge of establishing a state in almost ALL of the land being NEGOTIATED- WITH Jerusalem as their capital. Not only that, but that state would have been Jew-free. The ethnic cleansing of ALL Jews in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza in 1929 and 1948 would have been de facto accepted. But the Philistines started a war instead. Oh well. That was their choice. They chose bullets over bread and butter. They're like they guy who murders his parents and then cries for mercy on account of his being an orphan. Tough luck. Life doesn't work that way.

The world should realize that Israel, by waging war on the Palestinians, is waging war with all of us non-Jews.

Nothing is too complicated to deal with in a Talkback, and if Ha'aretz did not print an article like this, we average Israelis would never get to read it. Reading opinions not necessarily identical to your own is not sacrilege, it is broadening and adds perspective, even if you don't end up agreeing with their author. Relying on the skewed vision of those who "remember...when Arabs were working all over Israel building big homes for themselves..." will bring us to ruin.

Clearly Amira does not get to see Haaretz photos of well fed refugees in trendy jeans and sand shoes. WAs Amira protesting the Arab terror that led to all this?

I am an economist and I know damn well that the Palestinians did very well for years under Israeli occupation. The living standard was much higher than in countries like Jordan for instance. The current decline is purely the result of the violent line of action and unreliability of the Palestinian leadership. Amira used to be of relevance for my information on the territories but now is of no importance at all like the 4th evil son in the hagada called gideon levy. Amira get to your senses and start writing material Israeli's are interested in as these past articles were rubbish. There cannot be trade flows from Gaza when the Palestinians abuse it for terrorist attacks. The PA should have made 100% sure that no terror attacks could occur at border crossings or industrial parks. They did not. Sorry Amira the Palestinians wasted their chance for peace and an own state but wanted war and they getting it. Start writing about the suicide bombers youth camps and Hamas websites of hate.

Under full-fledged Israeli occupation - that is before 1993 - the Palestinian economy was booming (not only in comparison with other Arab entities). It was her bossom friend Yassir and his Tunis team who managed to bring this economy to its today's state. But as I said it is in Mrs. Hate's terms but a small mistake.

Maybe the Palestinians are beggars because instead of building a peaceful country they are more interested in murdering women and children and their leaders are more interested in lining their own pockets. Why don't you write about that? Maybe because you are not an honest person.

That was also Israel's fault. You are sick.

I find it harder and harder to understand why Ms Hass and a handful of other 'progressive' journalists continue to provide Haaretz, which has taken a turn to the 'liberal right', with unmerited 'progressive' credibility among the millions who only know of it by seeing her articles reprinted on 'progressive' blogs.

Come on, if the Allies during the WWII could prevent the Nazis from getting money, wouldn't they do so? And didn't the Germans sink HMS "Edinburgh" laden with gold for the Brits? It is absolutely normal at the time of war, and it IS war. "Hamas" does not deny it.

Amira is not doing anybody any good by blaming all on Israel. She should know that the intifadas and loss of Israeli lives forced the government to drastic measures for protection of citiziens. I remember a time before all this change when Arabs were working all over Israel, building big homes for themselves and earning money, also moving all around the country. Maybe she is too young to remember

This is way too complicated to deal with in a talkback. But let me hit a few points. One, free movement between Gaza and the West Bank, territorial integrity if you will, desstroys Israels territorial continuity. Second, the Rafah crossing point is not in Israali hands. Produce can go that way. Third, there is no accounting transparency in the PA and no legal authority. These are more like competing Mafia famalies. Look at the gaza hothouses. Fourth, it's difficult to attract Israeli customers to your towns when the threat of being killed is very real. There was tremendous Palestinian growth before Arafat launched his war in 2000. Last but not least. When you look at the non oil based economics in the Arab countries its pretty pathetic. They really can't make anything of value beyond subcontracting of textiles. Last but not least internal corruption, monopolies in the hands of the PA has been tremendous. So, Amira give the evil zionist angle a rest, its boring already

It obvious many of you will imediatly like to dismiss this article and blame amira for not discussing the terrorists... it would be nice if you realize that amira explains why there are terrorists in the first place. but because some jew needs to say something bold... what we are doing is about ten times worse. I dont really like to compare suffering and justify horrors of any kind... but we continuously destroy any kind of hope they may have. im just hopin that for every such article atleast one of you learns something new. but i know most of you would love to just make fun of the leftists... the favorite pastime of so called proud jews who dont have the balls to maybe question that maybe atleast part of the blame and teh reason they hate us has to do with what those evil leftists are sayin... enjoy the game... just hope the us never falls for being equally arrogant...