A license to kill

How many alive palestinians with blood in their hands are we suppose to give for Gilad Shalit? That is the value palestinians have put to their lifes- 1000 for 1? So do the same math here, Michael N

"I watched Israel take heavy casualties to avoid civilian casualties in Jenin." "That was the world's most moral army in action." First, no army is required under the laws of war to take heavy casualties to save enemy civilians. Second, you seem to forget the hysterical claims at the time made by the likes of Goldstone that the IDF had committed a massacre in Jenin. Your claim that of Goldstone's "most clinical and legal manner" is absurd. He admits himself that the report was not based on appropriate legal standards. The report is simply a political document and it has nothing to do with the exercise of the law.

the report has no legal force whatever. it is simply a report. the urc has no judicial role at all under the un charter. the urc is made up of some of the worst violators of human rights in the world. no country, be it israel or any other, can accept the conclusions of a report which emanates from this body. your claim that the report violates the principle of equality before the law would be a defence only in a court of law. in the muddied waters of international relations, as practiced by the un, such principle is only a political one. since the repoort has no legal standing, israel has no reason, as a sovereign, to pay attention to it legally. israel's fight will be a political one. should the security council adopt the report as its own, to great peril to many member states, then israel will have to decide on the next course of action.

The Road to Hell. The Palestinians having been living in a much bigger and longer Hell than Israelis ever have... What a distorted and inflammatory piece of writing this is... How long were the Jews suffering in the camps during WWII? How long since the Nakba began? Looks like 5 years vs 41... But then the figures/statistics seldom seem to be in the Palestinians' favour do they?

"The initial Arab world's intransigence toward a peaceful settlement gave Israel a cart blanche to continue the occupation and reenforce it with settlements." (Eli) I beg to differ, sir. In fact, I can't disagree more. Nothing should have given our leadership 'carte blanche' to pursue a disastrous, suicidal policy of settling (mostly fanatical religious) Israeli nationals amidst a foreign stateless occupied hostile population. We erred in believing they will consent to stay forever our silent and obedient subjects. We are now prisoners of our occupation and settlements, challenged by an Islamist enclave we cannot live with nor defeat, and still trying, desperately, to impose our will on a people we took control of 42 years ago. And I don't feel, every time I say that, any need to also mention the mistakes of the other side. The Palestinian leadership is not answerable to us. Our leaders are. And no leadership can change its course as long as it refuses to first admit it has erred. This is what makes me (and my friends) run. Join me/us. Ps: This world has much changed, since Abba Eban's speech to the UN. And remember, he also used to say, "Nations always find the right solution to their problems. After having, of course, tried every other one." We are still at it.

A prosecuter who smells blood (and often a career boost) will stop at two things: 1. he/she wins the case he/she is longing for. 2. he/she looses face and the case or the prosecution ends in a sisser balloon and his/her country is shamed and laughed at. In the first outcome he/she will continue even bolder, in the latter he/she will become cautious (if still in office). I just think very strongly that playing deff, blind and dumb is not a convincing strategy that will help Israel.

The fundament of genuine Law everywhere is that all men/citizens/people are bound by it and since nobody is above it, similar cases should be treated similar and different cases different. That is jurisdiction filling up the principle of equality for the Law. A criminal who is being prosecuted for a crime and sees that others who have committed the same crime are not, can fight the prosecuters susceptibility to prosecute him on the basis of violating this fundament and therefore undermining the integrity of and the common believe in the Law. A tactic Jacques Verger used in the Klaus Barbie trial. A judge or court can dismiss the prosecuters claim on susceptibility on this basis and only allow the trial to continue after the others are also prosecuted. One can have the opinion this is morally not just of course but this is judicial reality pretty much around the world.

Thanks Cipora for showing how the Goldstone report is biased and therefore falsely. It is moraly disgusting the the judge Goldstone gave took up the writing the report by confided himself only to Israly response and by preserving its title of his investigation "Crimes commited by Israel" . Is there any intenational tribunate to judge Goldstone ?

This assymetric warfare, we Israelis earned most honestly, when our leaders opened the gate of Gaza wide before Hamas, while publicly insulting ("a featherless chick, a non-relevant partner") the man his people had elected for Chairman by a clear majority, six months earlier. Yes, the one Pres. GW Bush (a notorious far-leftist Jew-hater?) later called "a man of peace", while also mentioning, " ... the vision that so many Palestinians long for, and that is a society in which they can raise their children in peace and hope." in "President Bush meets with President Abbas", September 20, 2006. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/bush092006.html

They do not have any legal right to fire rockets from built up areas. Nor does Israel have any legal rights to use massive force against the same built up areas even if in response to rocket fire. In particular they do not have the right to use white phosphorous in such areas nor do they have the right to hit hospitals or ambulance depots or water sanitation plants or cement factories or to the use of defensive human shields. Indeed all the aforementioned are War Crimes along with Hamas rocket firing. To answer your last question. The No. 1 principle in international laws of war is the principle of distinction. Failing to distinguish between combatants and civilians is another war crime.

It's not the case of hating Israel or Jews for that matter... This is about the ugliness of extreme Zionism, the pernicious effect that it has on world politics and events and now finally the nervous reactions that it is eliciting in the increasing numbers of people in the world who have come to realise that Israel is totally out of control and has no-one's interests in heart except for her own... Push push...shove shove... cut here...crimp here... if it don't fit... make it fit... if the folks won't wear it... make 'em wear it!!! It's simple... If FORCE WORKS then OVERWHELMING FORCE will SHOCK them in to a more submissive posture and then some... Now the spirit of this Palestinian pony sure is one that is hard to break!!

They do not have any legal right to fire rockets from built up areas. Nor does Israel have any legal rights to use massive force against the same built up areas even if in response to rocket fire. In particular they do not have the right to use white phosphorous in such areas nor do they have the right to hit hospitals or ambulance depots or water sanitation plants or cement factories or to the use of defensive human shields. Indeed all the aforementioned are War Crimes along with Hamas rocket firing. To answer your last question. The No. 1 principle in international laws of war is the principle of distinction. Failing to distinguish between combatants and civilians is another war crime.

where terrorists routinely endanger civillians. Hamas behaviour has been consistent with this all along.None of the human rights brigade found it necessary to condemn it,till they needed a fig leaf of respectability while the investigated Israel. Goldstone chose to ignore or sleep through evidence that showed Hamas placing their civillians in danger and using civillian facilities. That will achieve nothing other than encourage Hamas or the likes of the Talban.

And the best way to do that is to have the Report tabled as soon as possible... Six months later, especially if another 'big event' occurs in the M.E. or elsewhere, there will be huge energies expended by forces loyal to Israel, to have the report committed to the 'Waste-bin of History'. The report must be both addressed both now and then its import acted upon without delay. Mr Goldstone says that is best for PEACE in the M.E. In other words, Israel cannot remain with free reign and no accountability. A truly great man.

range.Including hitting Ashkelon. Israel had returned fire many many times without stopping the missiles.Repeated warnings to desist did not have any effect. Have to beg to differ,if Mexico was bombing Florida would you regard US action to stop it offensive or defensive?

No accountability...

was the stealing by many means of Palestinian land... The Palestinians are merely reacting to that 'causus belli'... the ultimate in a national humiliation ... OCCUPATION. when the Romans occupied 'Jewish lands', the Jews were 'provoked' in to resistance also... . Due to the might and organisation of the Roman legions, any 'demonstrative protests' would have been always symbolic. There was no way to throw off the Roman shackles so they lived with it. Why do Zionists expect the Palestinians to knuckle-under when they have such huge numbers and the world is watching as closely as possible? ... to give up without a fight? Even in the ever-increasingly imbalanced conflict, the Right-wing Jews continue to go for projecting the image of the Jews being the 'eternal victims' ... Anyone with any sense and all the information in hand, must clearly and unrestrainedly sympathise with the Palestinians... The only hope for Israel to increase support for its transgressions is in further warping/corrupting information sources and the sense of morality as it applies to Human Rights.

Thank you Goldstone. You have shown to the civilized world that even a judge can be an idiot and ......Kill! You are the 1st jew who will succeed in shedding jewish blood without firing a single shot.HRC will provide the ammo, as always.

"This is not only because the Hamas terrorists in Gaza are in effect getting off scot-free in the report - they, in any case, did not have to be concerned about being brought before the International Court of Justice" VIII. OBLIGATION ON PALESTINIAN ARMED GROUPS IN GAZA TO TAKE FEASIBLE PRECAUTIONS TO PROTECT THE CIVILIAN POPULATION and XXIV. THE IMPACT ON CIVILIANS OF ROCKET AND MORTAR ATTACKS BY PALESTINIAN ARMED GROUPS ON SOUTHERN ISRAEL would have given him some clue as to where to look to see how wrong his statement is. (but neither Hamas or the IDF were being threatened with prosecution at the ICJ. It is the ICC that would be hearing the cases)

Or are there any?......PEACE EVER?

The Goldstone report sheds a light on Israels license to kill! All this insane propaganda spouted by propagandists like Moshe is rather infantile to say the least. Don't worry Moshe the US traffic light is stuck on green and they won't suspend any IDF licenses for dangerous driving or going through a red light because they don't exist.......PEACE EVER?

The Goldstone report is already about terrorists who seem to have a license to kill without question and who think they are above the law,only these terrorists wear uniforms. Why they are called "defense" forces is beyond my comprehension.

Repeating anti-Israel propaganda does not make it fact. Unfortunately you seem unaware of that.

"While the Goldstone report is being eagerly read in Israel . . . " - Moshe Arens But the readers of Haaretz Forums are not allowed to post, or read, the report. A number of paragraphs in the report refute Mr. Arens's arguments, indeed evidence he either never read the report or has chosen to prevaricate. Yet attempts to post those paragraphs are inevitably censored. Such is the nature of debate in a nation which once reveled in discussion of every point of national policy and politics. Where once the truth was sought, now the 'party line' of the government is imposed. Every time I have posted from the report, I cited page and paragraph. Documented. Not lies, not innuendo, not palter about what was in the report but actual citations. [CENSORED]. And that it is deemed absolutely necessary to censor the contents of the report while printing lies about it says everything that must be said. But then this too will probably be [CENSORED].

Michael, I would ask you some questions. 1.Hamas was probably aware about the ferocity of possible Israeli response for the rockets as they probably watched what happened with Lebanon in 2006 and how many Leabanese were killed because of Hezbollah's unprovoked attack. Why the hell they fired those rockets if they knew the response? When Israel left Gaza why they kept on attacking if they knew that they couldn't destroy Israel? 2. Israel used ground troops for specific reason to minimize civilian casualties. Otherwise they would do same as President Putin of Russia had done in Chechnya. Have you seen pictures of Grozny lately? Piles and piles of rubble,the city is totally leveled. Why Russia is not investigated? 3. The issue of number of victims doesn't present any argument. It's the same if one fool tries to poke a tiger with a stick cries wolf when a tiger mauls him. What would be a proportional response? The tiger should beat this fool with a stick as well?

They do not have any legal right to fire rockets from built up areas. Nor does Israel have any legal rights to use massive force against the same built up areas even if in response to rocket fire. In particular they do not have the right to use white phosphorous in such areas nor do they have the right to hit hospitals or ambulance depots or water sanitation plants or cement factories or to the use of defensive human shields. Indeed all the aforementioned are War Crimes along with Hamas rocket firing. To answer your last question. The No. 1 principle in international laws of war is the principle of distinction. Failing to distinguish between combatants and civilians is another war crime.

Good to see that Arens has a hot line to the "terrorists". People who are colonised will fight back at times with terror - From ancient Caanan to modern Palestine. The ggreater terror is that of the coloniser who can hide behind the unjust laws and continue to build settlements and conduct sieges.

years labbo! so nothing is new !! the surprise will be when israel gets 1% of news space nd 100% of fairplay ! the irish times supported the ira so thats no suprise that its anti semitic !

and pictures of Hamas gunmen in residential areas. This is public knowledge now. I don't believe that what is patently false accusations should cause a sovereign country to have to defend itself. Certainly they should not have to defend themselves against accusations that the IDS systematically targeted civilians. If that was the case, more than 600 or so odd civilians would have died. Aside from pride, defending oneself against such patently false accusation will set a precedent for UN racist watchdogs to repeat this travesty over and over again.

If the things written in the Goldstone report are true (they should be investigated further) we are talking about war crimes and crimes against humanity. Things with no military purpose whatsoever. (Killing chickens, destroying a cement factory, shooting multiple phosphor grenades in the UN compound, using human shields, flattening houses while retreating). There is absolutely no reason why those things should have happened. If Moshe Arens thinks those things are normal (I see no denial), than there is a serious moral problem.

I watched Israel take heavy casualties to avoid civilian deaths at Jenin. That was the world's most moral army in action. And it was paying the price. Something has changed and it is obvious to any perspicacious observer. It was obvious to Judge Goldstone and he detailed in a most clinical and legal manner. I have seen lots of accusations but I have seen no one make a credible refutation of Judge Goldstone's work. I first deemed this the knee-jerks of lazy people. It is clear there is something deeper, darker and more disgusting at work. There is much about the contents of the Goldstone Report which brings erie comparison to the Stroop Report, except written for justice instead of evil. If Israel wishes to be what it did in Cast Lead it may. No one can stop it. But it is hard to respect what Israel has been becoming over the last decade. Israel has unquestioned right to self-defense. But if it wants to keep claiming the mantel of morality it will have to resume practicing it.

Something else you missed Mr. Arens is: "In relation to the firing of rockets and mortars into Southern Israel by Palestinian armed groups operating in the Gaza Strip, the Mission finds that the Palestinian armed groups fail to distinguish between military targets and the civilian population and civilian objects in Southern Israel. The launching of rockets and mortars which cannot be aimed with sufficient precisions at military targets breaches the fundamental principle of distinction. Where there is no intended military target and the rockets and mortars are launched into civilian areas, they constitute a deliberate attack against the civilian population. These actions would constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity." - Goldstone Report page 541, paragraph 1747 Only a montebank would praise the morality of Hamas. Only a montebank would attack the report as you have done. Israel claims the moral high ground, yet peddles humbug about the report it can't refute.

" Israel should face the accusations and come up with NATO attrocities committed in Afghanistan from air raids, burning children, women and in fact everybody alive who were so unlucky to be in that place at that time. That would be a powerfull defense." No, it would not. A criminal cannot defend his crimes by accusing others of similar crimes. That's nonsense!

" Israel should face the accusations and come up with NATO attrocities committed in Afghanistan from air raids, burning children, women and in fact everybody alive who were so unlucky to be in that place at that time. That would be a powerfull defense." No, it would not. A criminal cannot defend his crimes by accusing others of similar crimes. That's nonsense!

"This is not only because the Hamas terrorists in Gaza are in effect getting off scot-free in the report" - Moshe Arens "Palestinian armed groups have launched thousands of rockets and mortars into Israel since April 2001. These have succeeded in causing terror within Israel?s civilian population, as evidenced by the high rates of psychological trauma within the affected communities. The attacks have also led to erosion of the social, cultural and economic lives of the communities in southern Israel, and have affected the rights to education of the tens of thousands of children and young adults who attend classes in the affected areas. Within the mandated period of the Mission, these attacks have left 4 people dead and hundreds injured. . . " - Goldstone Report pg 527, para 1697-98 You might have read it Mr. Arens before pronouncing upon it's contents. You would appear less foolish if you had.

We do not need biased investigations that support terrorism against innocent civilians and nor do we buy what Goldstone is selling.

"So send us away" meaning: we do not need you, we can go to higher places of influence and authority and have own and better means to get to you. We are smart and cunning, na na na na na... But then the Irish and the Israeli's have a common historical experience: fighting the British occupier to get an independent state of their own. And the Irish also can share the experience of occupation with the Pals since 1967. So I think it is very natural you are like a ship lost on course on an emotional ocean full of heavy waves, slingering you from one side to the other, sounding sometimes as an Israeli right-winger and the other time as a Islamic Jihad Pal terrorist crying out where there is justice in this world. My advice: some mildness never harmed anyone, espescially not the one showing it. Stay healthy and be cool, thou Irish Wall Fighter for the never ending cause.

I believe you have it all wrong, sir. The "license to kill" is and always has been awarded to Israel through the veto power of the US. You can always count on the US to protect her allies like Israel. Up until now, Israel has "breathed a sigh of relief" knowing that its greatest ally would always play the role of defense lawyer whenever a large scale massacre was committed by Israel in Gaza or Lebanon for that matter. I think the fact that this Israeli government finally has to face the music is telling and in the long run will do more good for Israel than anything else, because leaders will finally realize that there are consequences to committing crimes.

"goldstone [...] disregarded the numerous and varied warnings to gaza civilians to leave a given area of combat ... " (CJK) These wretched Gaza civilians who chose not to heed the warnings, and to be killed, just to offer a self-hating Jew a chance to stain our sovereign

They do not have any legal right to fire rockets from built up areas. Nor does Israel have any legal rights to use massive force against the same built up areas even if in response to rocket fire. In particular they do not have the right to use white phosphorous in such areas nor do they have the right to hit hospitals or ambulance depots or water sanitation plants or cement factories or to the use of defensive human shields. Indeed all the aforementioned are War Crimes along with Hamas rocket firing. To answer your last question.The No. 1 principle in international laws of war is the principle of distinction. Failing to distinguish between combatants and civilians is another war crime.

complicated than the way you present them. Essentially, both sides are to blame. The initial Arab world's intransigece toward a peaceful settlement gave Israel a cart blanche to continue the occupation and reenforce it with settlements. Events took a life of their own and unfolded in a very undesirable manner. There is enough blame to go around on both sides. I still remember as a young soldier after the 1967 war Abba Eban's speech to the UN whereby he painted a picture of peace and prosperity in the region if the Arab world only accepted Israel, offering all the occupied territories back. I remember chills going through my body in expectation that I could finally visit Bagdad, Cairo and Damascus and being of Iraqi extraction, I would be able to converse with our neighbors in their own language. I was certain peace will prevail...Eban's propsals were so logical....clearly I was very naive. How sad and tragic that 42 years later we are further away from peace than we were 42 years ago.

In that cast the Goldstone Report merely confirms what many of us had already known

can only be proven by standing trial or coming up with a counter report supported by evidence to international standards. Israel cannot win the battle for deligitimizing Goldstone, the UN, it's HRC or the ICC. It simply will not work, totally independent from the fact whether the report is true or false. The accused can not win a case in a judicial, moral, political field whatsoever, by neglecting the accusation and charge on the accusers. Not if the accusers represent the International Community and derives their jurisdiction from international instituted bodies for that. Israel should face the accusations and come up with NATO attrocities committed in Afghanistan from air raids, burning children, women and in fact everybody alive who were so unlucky to be in that place at that time. That would be a powerfull defense. The Israeli High Court could even adopt universal jurisdiction a la Spain to go for British and German and Dutch commanders and decision makers in Afghanistan.

dissenters. No problem. We can go on sites where you will have to work much harder to counter our critisims of Israeli agression and war crimes. You will have to troll the internet to catch up with us. Al Jazeera/Boston Globe/Washing post/Chronicle/Times of london/Irish times/Dallas star and so on and so on. So send us away.

Interesting how a well-known and universally respected and esteemed Jewish man has suddenly become the devil incarnate - all because he didn't see the halo that ipso facto crowns the heads of the members of the IDF. Well, he must have worn a mask all along - and it suddenly fell off ! Amazed

The report says that there was no evidence that Gazan combatants operated within schools or hospitals. And it describes several cases of deliberate targeting of civilians by Israel. It also describes several cases where civilians weren't necessarily targeted, but a reasonable degree of effort to avoid civillian deaths wasn't exercised. For G-d's sake, people with white flags were killed. the ratio of deaths was 10-1 and a third of them children!

This disreputable "report" sponsored by the reviled UN HRC buttresses terrorism will gain no adherents in views nor forums of the reasoned and fair minded. The more Goldstone bleats the greater he flaunts his obstinate mendacious faults and those of his report.

Have we not, ourselves, been warned, a long time ago? "Not only will the effort to annex the territories not provide security; it will weaken the capacity to protect ourselves from our neighbors' hostility and THE OPPOSITION OF THE NATIONS." From an Open Letter to then-PM Begin, 1980, by Professor Jacob Talmon (1916-1980), Prof of Modern History at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. www.fmep.org/analysis/analysis/a-prophetic-message-from-the-past Begin didn't bother to respond to Talmon's Letter. In 1980, he and his Defense minister Sharon were apparently too busy planning the first invasion of Lebanon, two years later. You know, the one that cost the life of so many of our soldiers, and whose only "success" was Arafat's departure for Tunis and the rise of Hezbollah on our northern border. In 1980, our leaders didn't heed Talmon warnng, and kept denying the existence of a Palestinian people. Hamas was still an obscure little welfare organisation, whose name no one had heard yet. Not until the first Palestinian uprising, seven years later. "Persistence in error is the problem. Practitioners of government continue down the wrong road as if in thrall to some Merlin with magic power to direct their steps. There is always freedom of choice to change or desist from a counter-productive course if the policy-maker has the moral courage to exercise it. Yet to recognize error, to cut losses, to alter course, is the most repugnant option in government." Historian Barbara Tuchman, twice winner of the Pulitzer Price, in her "March of Folly - From Troy to Vietnam", 1984.

And, if action will be nevertheless taken on the Goldstone report, that will certainly lead to the bitter end of "peace". Because biased reports, biased elections, biased everything, promote only collusion, never concilliation.

Please explain since israel didn't create covered area for Hamas fighters and because Hamas fighters would be killed easily on the open they have the right to fight I civilian areas? That makes no sense and doesn't consider the third option don't fire rockets into israel don't smuggle weapons and break the cease fire don't throw so much as a rock withmalintent over the fence and change the charter that you live by that say it's your holy mission to kill Israelis and destroy the state of israel lastly please explain and site wording of law that say that it us incumbent on idf to offer a higher standar of care and expose it's soldiers to risk for the safety of gazan civilians when Hamas, these civilians govt is not willing to take this risk the idf has a right to say that it's citizens are more valuable than gazans that's why it serves israel not Hamas

as in palacing bombs on buses and train. Throwing bombs into open markets and placing booby traps on the bodies of british soldiers they had hanged ---with out trial or due course of justice. Israel honours these terrorist by awarding the Lehi Medal to it,s so called heroes. Give us a break light unto nations---you are a nation built on terrorism. Spare us the indignation.

If you guys were conducted a "clean" war, why did you block access to the Medias ?. I don't believe you propaganda department screw up. To the contrary, you thought naively that the atrocities will remain secret. Even the Holocaust so dear to your propaganda cannot justify the horror committed in Gaza. The whole knows, it is too late.

Talking of the lack of bomb shelters in Gaza is stretching the limits of credibility. Israel has a somewhat higher income than Gaza[probably a hundred times higher per capita] and Gaza is not only unable to pay for bomb shelters but would not be able to build them in some of the densest populated cities on Earth in any case, even if they had the funds. You also seem ignorant of the fact that Gazans could not get concrete into Gaza, to rebuild their broken sewers for the last 5 years, yet you suggest they build bomb shelters! What you also ignore is that when Israel wants to they simply use penetrating explosive to detonate deep underground as in the case of the tunnels. Your idea that Gaza should provide tempting underground targets for F-16's is a touch nauseating. As for attacking from civilian areas in the most dense spot in the Middle East?! Well when Hamas did take to the fields the IDF responded by destroying 90% of the agriculture in Cast Lead so as to deny Hamas cover away from civilian centers, simultaneously denying Gazans the possibility of feeding themselves.

Oh I see, the IDF has the utmost respect for Palestinian civilian lives. And nobody could have foreseen that the majority of the people killed in Cast Lead would be civilians. Come on now, who's being naive and gullible? Yes Hamas is to blame for fighting from positions surrounded by civilians. And this lead to the deaths of the civilian Palestinians. But (and this is important, most people here seem to want to forget about this) the IDF did the killing. Here's an example for you: A bank robber takes 50 people hostage and starts shooting at passers-bys with a handgun. The police can A: storm the place and B: call in an air-strike that demolishes the bank (not normal police procedure, but I need something a bit of the ordinary here). In my opinion it would be rather odd to say that the bank robber is responsible for the death of all of the hostages when they died because of the police-ordered air-strike.

From the report: "The Mission repeatedly sought to obtain the cooperation of the Government of Israel. After numerous attempts had failed, the Mission sought and obtained the assistance of the Government of Egypt to enable it to enter the Gaza Strip through the Rafah crossing. 9. The Mission has enjoyed the support and cooperation of the Palestinian Authority and of the Permanent Observer Mission of Palestine to the United Nations. Due to the lack of cooperation from the Israeli Government, the Mission was unable to meet members of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank..."

eh. Care to tell us why the GOI refused to take part in the investigations. They were invited. They were sent reams of documents outlining the accusations aginst both them and Hamas. What did they do---ignored that stupid man. And you use words such as santimonious. I think we now know who is silly and self rightious and sanctiminous. Include all supporters of the barnarism of cast lead if you wish. I am surprised at you. You have joined the ben jabbers and victor Hardmans of this TB.

Keep spouting Israeli propaganda if you want, but it's a bit futile now that Goldstone has made it clear that there is no evidence of any illegitimate use of civilians by Hamas. There is, however, plenty of evidence that the IDF used Gazans as human shields. Why don't you read the report? Afraid that it might upset your Zionist certainties?

From the report "361. The Mission notes that the statistics from non-governmental sources are generally consistent. Statistics alleging that fewer than one out of five persons killed in an armed conflict was a combatant, such as those provided by PCHR and Al Mezan as a result of months of field research,224 raise very serious concerns about the way Israel conducted the military operations in Gaza. The counterclaims published by the Government of Israel fall far short of international law standards. Read the report David---get out of that cocoon you are curled up in.

The "complete disregard for the lives of innocent civilians" comes not from Israel, but from Hamas (and Hezbollah), which PURPOSELY fights from behind civilians and FORCES THEM to remain in place or actually PUTS THEM THERE. It is not just a disregard for civilians, but a cynical manipulation of them -- and of easily gullible people like (look in the mirror).

The chickens are coming home to roost, Cipora. No matter how you slice it, Israel now and officially stands accused of war crimes and even crimes against humanity. It is about time the world wakes up to the inhuman behavior of Israel's IDF. Maybe, just maybe, Israelis will take stock of who they are becoming and try to become a civilized country, which they have the potential to do. Unfortunately, Israeli society is guided by the likes of Bibi, Barak, Lieberman, Olmert...men of no integrity and honesty. How can you expect a society to act and behave responsibly if all you get from Israeli politicians is daily non-sense. If Israel is to join the civilized world, it had better start acting like a civilized society. Some people think that it is too damn late!

Spouting Israeli propaganda and apologetics just does not cut it. The number of casualties on the Palestinian side id disproportionately large because the population density in Gaza is one of the highest in the world, Israel has used accurate and highly powerful weapons and ,as Dan Halutz once famously said, bombing the Gazans means nothing to him. If Israel had only bombed the supply tunnels and in the process it also killed civilian bystanders it would have been a totally diferent story. But Israel has bombed Gaza city, refugee camps etc. and the Godstone report cites specific such instances which were also corroborated by Israeli soldiers themselves. Numbers tell the story. When the kill ratio is in the order of 1:100 you know something is profoundly wrong. That you choose to ignore it or even condone it is telling as well.

I believe he is a self righteous sanctimonious and VERY stupid man. He will wear that mantle forever.

Israel acted with impunity and killed innocent civilians. Now they are being called to task by Mr Goldstone in his report. Mr Goldstone is clearly a man of integrity, a distinguished judge, a Jew, a Zionist and a friend of Israel. He has experience as a prosecutor with the International Criminal Court. He said in a 2000 speech in Jerusalem, that "bringing war criminals to justice stems from the lessons of the Holocaust" How is it that so many Israelis cannot see that this man is acting from the good ?

The report doesn't directly embolden terrorists in any great way. It does reflect poorly on Israeli government for not particiapting and providing their data, information and opinion. The world sees, AGAIN, how Israel reacts, which is poorly. Here's my Christian American view: Why after 7,000 incoming rockets, launch a response--why not after 100 rockets or wait until 10,000 rockets; experts didn't see it as a national security threat! Israel violated American agreements to use laser-guide bombs and Apache helicopters for defensive purposes only. Israel use self-reflection--Goldstone and a large segment of the world (including me)saw the Gaza Operation as walking that fuzzy line between self-defense and terroist offensive actions. Israel has acted this way many times before. You should thank Obama and Hillary for down playing the report.

In campaigns like this, the anti-terror forces lose, because they don't win, and the rebels win by not losing.

"They can also interpret the report as international approbation for carrying out military operations from civilian population centers - schools, hospitals, refugee camps, etc. - as they did in the years when they were launching rockets into Israeli towns and villages in the south of Israel, and as they continued to do during the Israeli military operation in the Gaza Strip." vs. "The Mission did not find any evidence to support the allegations that hospital facilities were used by the Gaza authorities or by Palestinian armed groups to shield military activities and that ambulances were used to transport combatants or for other military purposes. On the basis of its own investigations and the statements by UN officials, the Mission excludes that Palestinian armed groups engaged in combat activities from UN facilities that were used as shelters during the military operations." Strike two for the article. (Everyone but the IDF looked at the claims and found them baseless)

"This is not only because the Hamas terrorists in Gaza are in effect getting off scot-free in the report - they, in any case, did not have to be concerned about being brought before the International Court of Justice." vs. "The Mission recommends that upon receipt of the committee?s report the Security Council consider the situation and, in the absence of good faith investigations that are independent and in conformity with international standards having been undertaken or being under way within six months of the date of its resolution under Article 40 by the appropriate authorities in Gaza, acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, refer the situation in Gaza to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court pursuant to Article 13 (b) of the Statute of the International Criminal Court." So, strike one for the article. (Actually, neither party was told it woud face the ICJ, but instead the ICC)

Israel was invited and declined. The Comission fowarded several documents outlining the charges being levied agaisnt her. Again Israel refused to offer a defense and sent the docs back unopened. In a normal court proceedings refusal to show is taken as an admission of guilt. You dim wits think that after refusing admission to the comission they should spend their time searching out iformation that strengthens Israel,s case. Get real---You had the opportunity to be part of the process but you played hookie like a scared kid who stays out at night rather than face the music. As for the idiot claims that Israel sent warnings to the Gazans to get out. "GET OUT TO WHERE" THE PLACE WAS SURROUNDED AND BRAVE IDF THUGS SHOT WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO WERE CARRYING WHITE FLAGS. WARNINGS---MY -SS. yOU APOLOGISTS ARE NOTHING SHORT OF DISGUSTING.

Have we not, ourselves, been warned, a long time ago? "Not only will the effort to annex the territories not provide security; it will weaken the capacity to protect ourselves from our neighbors' hostility and THE OPPOSITION OF THE NATIONS." From an Open Letter to then-PM Begin, 1980, by Professor Jacob Talmon (1916-1980), Prof of Modern History at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. www.fmep.org/analysis/analysis/a-prophetic-message-from-the-past Begin didn't bother to respond to Talmon's Letter. In 1980, he and his Defense minister Sharon were apparently too busy planning the first invasion of Lebanon, two years later. You know, the one that cost the life of so many of our soldiers, and whose only "success" was Arafat's departure for Tunis and the rise of Hezbollah on our northern border. In 1980, our leaders didn't heed Talmon warnng, and kept denying the existence of a Palestinian people. Hamas was still an obscure little welfare organisation, whose name no one had heard yet. Not until the first Palestinian uprising, seven years later. "Persistence in error is the problem. Practitioners of government continue down the wrong road as if in thrall to some Merlin with magic power to direct their steps. There is always freedom of choice to change or desist from a counter-productive course if the policy-maker has the moral courage to exercise it. Yet to recognize error, to cut losses, to alter course, is the most repugnant option in government." Historian Barbara Tuchman, twice winner of the Pulitzer Price, in her "March of Folly - From Troy to Vietnam", 1984.

"goldstone [...] disregarded the numerous and varied warnings to gaza civilians to leave a given area of combat ... " (CJK) These wretched Gazaan civilians who chose not to heed the warnings, and be killed, just to offer a self-heating Jew another chance to stain our sovereign democratic state.

Enough! I've about had enough of certain people in Israel's DRAMA, EXCUSES, OVER Exaggerations...and in some cases OUTRIGHT LIES! The Goldstone Report-- Holds BOTH Hamas AND Israel accountable for their actions! [Hamas is mentioned...remember that?] BUT, Even More-- It addresses the concerns of the CIVILIAN population...who need/DESERVE their injuries, deaths & specific UNJUST murders...ADDRESSED!!! Crimes/War Crimes-- DO NOT BECOME valid/legitimate...just because the people you are fighting against...do not have an official state/army! CRIMINALS In OUR Nations-- Acting in OUR names...potentially contributing to OUR deaths/continued war...the lowering of the status of OUR countries...and the instability of OUR countries...DO NOT DESERVE coddling/impunity FROM US! Enough! Of shielding INTENTIONAL Crimes/WAR CRIMINALS...in Israel..AND elsewhere! Cowards/Criminals/A Danger To Us All-- These people are NOT heroes! ...In fact, in they are the ABOVE.

His next job should be reporting on the situation in Helmand,it would be based on testimony by the Taliban. Then he should report on Sri-Lanka with the testimony of the Tamil-Tigers. Then in Swatt-Valley with the testimony of Al-Qaida.And then we all should meet in the Hague except Hamas,Taliban,Tamil-Tigers,and Al-Qaida they are the innocent!

.....and Israel...??? Unlike Israel they don't claim to be a "shining example" of humanity. Which brings us back to the core problem of Israel and the Jewish religion....

There are no civilians or soldiers in Hamas. Everybody there is fighting Israel, men, women, children. It is their culture. To fight a war with them is to fight all of them at once.

Even when they bomb UN installations,and kill UN personal nothing happen.There fear of terror and their submission to that fear,made them to accept the killing of their own personal,if it is done by a Muslim.And then they write report of the one who dare fight those terrorist, because of their fear of retaliation by the terrorist.The UN is an umbrella of terror organizations,and dictatoreship.

The only effect of the report is to show to trigger-happy leaders that they can't go ahead and kill a bunch of civilians to get a terrorist, at least not without repercussions. This shouldn't be news to anyone, it is basic humanity. "During Operation Defensive Shield the IDF showed that the commonly held wisdom that terrorism could not be defeated by military means was dead wrong." You got that one right, at least about the dead part... Such complete disregard for the lives of innocent civilians in appalling. I suppose nuking a country from where a terrorist group operates would be OK as well?

There were visceral condemnations of Sri Lankan actions against the Tamils. The vast majority of the planet recognise Spains right to all of its lands including most Catalans and a third of Basques! Colombia ditto, but the reason why the nation with one of the highest number of human rights abuses {Colombia} and unlawful killings outside of Africa has gone unnoticed in much of the world is because the US funds those killings willingly or not. The cry of anti semite does not cut it. Goldstone is never going to be made to wear that particular mantle no matter how hard you try to make it fit.

Military action targeted on a civilian area or military action launched from a civilian area

oh well... those who "put ends" pay for their "putting" with blood. Don't confuse lackeys singing off an owner's leash with fighters. The terrible thing their investment is our blood flowing in the streets. Jewish and Arab... the more flowing, the more they earn.

The term terror or terrorism appears 17 times in Prof. Arens? article. To be true, terror is abhorrent. But surely, there is no consensus on what is defined as ?terror?. Here is a section from Wikipedia's entry on ?IRGUN?: ?? Leaders within the mainstream Jewish Agency, Haganah, Histadrut, as well as British authorities, routinely condemned Irgun operations as terrorist and branded it an illegal organization as a result of the group's attacks on civilian targets. However, privately at least the Haganah kept a dialogue with the dissident groups. In 1948, The New York Times published a letter signed by a number of prominent Jewish figures including Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, Sidney Hook, and Rabbi Jessurun Cardozo, which described Irgun as a "a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine". The letter went on to state that Irgun and the Stern gang "inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and widespread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute. Soon after World War II, Winston Churchill said "we should never have stopped immigration before the war", but that the Irgun were "the vilest gangsters" and that he would "never forgive the Irgun terrorists?. ?"

More power to you! Best S

This Moshe guy has as other current and former israeli leaders mastered the art of twisting facts to prove their lopsided arguments. Let's face it Israel has as a matter of policy, targeted civilians throughout all its wars be it in Lebanon or Palestine. The real terrorists, as documented by Goldstone( a jew) are the Israelis and their ruthless, cowardly military. They would not dare face the brave Hamas militants on the battelfield! instead they they unleach their fury on civilians and on milk factories..

Moshe Arens' impassioned article misses the point again. As long as biased people like Arens believe that God favors his clan, and dispises others, those people will have no problem killing those others. We did it in the United States when we believed that God wanted the European culture to rule the land, and we killed the Native Americans (Indians) with the fervor of the righteous. Mr. Arens would like to continue that brutal practice in Israel and Palestine. Mr. Arens, you are using brutality that is a century and a half out of date. There is a huge population of ethical and intelligent people in Israel. Unfortunately, none of them helped write Mr. Arens' article.

hiding out and fighting without uniforms amongst civillians.Needless to say Goldstone cried "war crime" for his employers,when the predictable and inevitable casualties occured. Civillians lose their protected status under the circumstances.

Very simple really. Israel is a terrorist State and needs to be brought to heel just like all other terrorist states or at least the leaders who oversee this form of terorism. George Bush and his lapdog Tony Blair come to mind. Livni/Olmert/Barak and now netanyahu to a lesser degree as his crimes of collective punishment have not reahed the barbarism of his predecessors. I have no doubts he is capable of parity and if allowed will do so in the pursuit of the Greater Israel. It is time to stop these criminals--dead in their tracks. No pun intended.

It goes with the land theft license, the child murder license, the war crimes license, etc. Zionists get a an exclusive license to commit any war crimes they wish for, see holocaust.

There were visceral condemnations of Sri Lankan actions against the Tamils. The vast majority of the planet recognise Spains right to all of its lands including most Catalans and a third of Basques! Colombia ditto, but the reason why the nation with one of the highest number of human rights abuses {Colombia} and unlawful killings outside of Africa has gone unnoticed in much of the world is because the US funds those killings willingly or not. The cry of anti semite does not cut it. Goldstone is never going to be made to wear that particular mantle no matter how hard you try to make it fit.

They evolve all the time and armies have to adapt to new threats and ways of fighting. Asymmetric warfare - the clash between a uniformed conventional army and insurgents wearing mufti fighting in non-conventional ways - was already old when the Spanish guerilla fought Napolean's troops in the Peninsular War. Western armies have had to fight these from Cyprus, Kenya and Vietnam through to N Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan. Much has been learned, though only now is the US changing its tactics in Afghanistan to counter-insurgency (CI) ones. The CI emphasis is on protecting and aiding the civilian while hunting the insurgents down, so separating the insurgency from its base. The means are principally infantry warfare, backed by sophisticated C3, recce and intel. Air strikes are a last resort, indirect fire (artillery, naval, mortar) is never used on civilian areas and full restraint is required where there are human shields. Israel hasn't begun to understand CI warfare.

By your logic, the only thing that matters is the number of casualties. Do you think that if Israelis didn't have bomb shelters in their towns and cities that the numbers would remain the same? The difference here is that Israel cares whether or not its civilian population is harmed, and thus it has setup an infrastructure to protect them. To Hamas, it is precisely your type of response that makes having civilian casualties in their ranks a huge benefit to their cause, and thus they choose to attack from their civilian areas and make no effort to protect the population. The "numbers and figures" you speak of, DON'T "TELL IT ALL" and YES, further words ARE NECESSARY. You forget that numbers are often manipulated to produce desired outcomes. The numbers don't tell you really who were and weren't militants. Those "figures" compiled used age to determine militant or civilian status. Age, has little relevance in regards to Hamas and other terrorists, they recruit in grammar school.

The Israelites are God's chosen people, they have the right to do what they want to inferior non-chosen people. The first time they colonised the holy land they killed off the indigenous population(man,woman,child' beast). They only spared those (mostly females)that they wanted for slaves. People will better understand the present Israelite settlement if they study the first.

"tally every Israeli that was killed by the Palestinians and every Palestinian that was killed by the Israelis. The numbers will tell it all. No further words will be necessary. The figures will speak for themselves." Try the same with American and Japanese casualties in WW2 and it will be easy to make the figures say that the US was the cruel genocidal agressor while Japan was the passive, innocent victim. Instead of comparing just the total figures, what would the results be, say, if one would compare the number of real non-combatants killed on both sides? Compare, for instance, the number of Palestinian and Israeli women and children (under 14, not under 18) killed in the conflict, and the figures will speak for themselves, yes, but something entirely different. And please, don't forget to compare also the number of Palestinians killed by Palestinians with that of Israelis killed by Israelis. Then one will have some idea of what's different about both societies.

Oh, my God, what a nonsense. If to put an end to the easily way to kill and justify everything you do because there are terrorism... If things go in that way, world will be imposible to live. Israel has a license to kill, Hamas has a license to kill, wars againts terrorism has a license to kill. Goldstone report try to put an end to that kind of thing, the theory invented by Bush and Israel (of course)

If Israel stops retaliate to terror, there will be no Israel.

goldstone accepted his mandate from the notorious hrc, an organ of the un whose members are known for some of the worst human rights violations in the international community. by accepting a mandate from such a group, goldstone's credibility was already tarnished. given the unprecedented breath of the report and given its sweeping accusation that israel systtematically attacked gaza civilians, the entire report is tainted. just as importantly, the report is an open invitation to terrorists to pursue further acts of terror against israel and against its own civilians. as this is written, hamas terrorists are relocating gaza civilians on israel's borders to serve as human shields in the future. while hamas is free to continue in impunity planning its mext terror attacks from within the civilian population, israeli generals face arrest in various countries. the goldstone report will also harm the peace process and peace itself, as the most recent riots have shown.

Israeli's should do as they've always done.. "Never mind what the world thinks, just do what needs to be done to survive.." She was attacked, they hit back 3 times as hard. She was attacked again, & again she hit back & made those guilty of the "unprovoked" attack pay. Now the world wants her to give back what they won through the blood of her people.. I say that Israel should say to hell with the world & it's opinion. Since the day I was able to understand what I was seeing in the news, I've watched her be attacked. And I've watched her retaliate, only to be condemned by the "world's opinion". And yet NO ONE's opinion of the attackers has ever been negative. Israel has been under assault on all fronts since the day she was born. Is she perfect or without her faults ? No. But she's a beautiful thing to behold none the less. And so, she stands alone in the world, only wanting the rest of the world to say, "yes, we accept her". To hell with the world. Carry on as you see fit.

Fortuna Benmayor, you are absolutely correct in comparing israel's killer policy to those terrorist organizations you mentioned. Jews always use the antisemitic accusation against everyone who dare to criticize the war crimes and genocide what is taking place there.

the goldstone report made many unwarranted judgment which were not fact based. goldstone's claim that gaza police was a civilian agency is belied by the facts that its members came from the al-qassam brigade and from the executive force, both part of hamas terror network and both integrated into the interior ministry. the head of the interior ministry was himself a well know qassam brigade member. by claiming that the police was a civilian agency, goldstone was able to inflate civilian casualties by 17% at least. goldstone hugely enlarged his mandate beyond investigating the gaza operation to include israel's internal affairs. he criticises israel's judiciary, for no reason, and goes so far as to criticise israel's immigration policies. none of this has anything to do with his mandate. by so doing, goldstone clearly abused his authority.

the goldstone report has caused incalculable harm to israel. it has put a sovereign democratic state on the same level as an outlawed terror entity. by so doing, it a priori blurs the line between a legitimate state and a terror organisation. goldstone has libeled the jewish state by his astonishing claim that israel had systematically attacked gaza civilians. goldstone, in arriving at that conclusion disregarded the numerous and varied warnings to gaza civilians to leave a given area of combat, just as he ignored the saily three hour humanitarian cease fire to allow the passage of goods from israel into gaza. goldstone accepted without question all testimony by hamas. yet abu obeida, head of police, clearly lied when he claimed that hamas had killed 80 idf members. yet goldstone refused to accept that the bombing of a house was a mistake, as the idf clearly stated, making the highly unjudicial claim that it could not have been so.

When you are a small weak force living in a ghetto you really have no other choice but to fight where you stand. Hamas were not very impressive and only killed three IDF during the attack on Gaza, while Hezbollah are a different force altogether. They are an effective military force and they expelled Israeli form Lebanon. The brutality of the IDF and IAF in Gaza was quite shocking. Anyone who commits war crimes, Jew, Christian, or Muslim should expect international retribution.

when the figures speak for themselves please explain to me what it means -according to your calculation- that germany had much more dead persons during world war 2 than e. g. great britain or the usa!

Moshe Arens better sit down with a pencil and paper and tally every Israeli that was killed by the Palestinians and every Palestinian that was killed by the Israelis. The numbers will tell it all. No further words will be necessary. The figures will speak for themselves.

Moshe, I don't think your ridiculous assertions about terrorists studying the Goldstone report deserve rebuttal. But there is one point that must be made: Both Israeli and Hamas war criminals ought to be sent to the ICC. Immediately. Anything less is, definitionally, a travesty of justice.

If Pakistan launches an offensive into Waziristan, if Sri Lanka launches a new offensive against Tamil Tigers terrorists, if Colombia launches any campaign against the FARC or Spain against ETA or you name it, you can be sure, the Goldstone precedent won't be aprecedent. It is antisemitically correct, and it only applies against Israel and is designed to favor terrorists againt her.