A black flag

Mr Levy, I agree with every single word you write. This carnage is a shame that sooner or later may fall on Israeli heads. I am proud of having half jewish blood but I feel ashamed of this ruthless indiscriminate slaughter. Still I must admit there are free voices in the Israeli press.

WHAT RIGHT DO YOU THINK YOU GOT JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU GOT A 1200 POUND BULL ON YOUR SIDE IT SAD TO SEE WHAT THE JEWISH PEOPLE OF ISRAL AN THAT,S ONLY SOME OF THEM JUIST TO THINK OF WHAT THEY FLED FROM TO BECOME WHAT THEY HATE THE MOST

its inhumane but the gaza did vote in a ideology that revolted against jewish return and rejected the 1947 partition plan

Thank You, Mr Levy, For Telling the truth.You are a true descendant of Abraham.

Leave us alone until your yahoo(Christ analogy) comes and then Jesus will kill him till that stop killing innocent people.

At least we "archaic arabs" can spell the word claim ("They of course clame to having...") If it weren't for Arabic advances in so many areas (math, science, etc) the world wouldn't be where it is today! You call Arabs "primitive" but it is not Arab STATES such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc that are resorting to violence against thousands of innocent civilians; rather it is Isreal!

Good to see Democracy alive and well in Israel, if only the US could take this kind of open debate on it's policies instead of cowering behind the (un-) "patriot" act!

It is very sad to see so little real debate here. I think the author of the op-ed piece is very courageous in his attempt to look at how the other side might see things. By not looking at the other side, we can never get out of the mess we are in.

my respond to this is very simple i just request everyone to forget about who they are. and to THink for once. Are we really fighthing this battle because some of us happen to be jews and the others muslims and so forth? everytime a human being gets killed regarldess of who he is and which religion he follows DOES IT NOT EFFECT EACH ONE OF US why rae we hating eadch other on basis of what the Media says or does? there is no biger truth then the truth that WHATEVER IS HAPPENING IN isreal lebanon and gaza needs to stop. no motgher wants to lose another child in this pointless "war" WE ARE weakening a livelihood for our coming generations. all of this NEEDS TO STOP NO RELIGON ecnourages one to KILLL another and woww i thought this was the ERA the gneration of LOGIC BUT .wOW. forget about logic we fire missles on each other bcazuse WE DONT HAVE MOUTHS TO SPEAK FROM i am sure this centuryt would be remembered for hundredsd of years n laughed at. AS human beings i beg all of you to reachou

Mr. Levy, After reading this article, for the first time in my life I feel that there is hope for a media that is determined to speak up even if it is the unpopular perspective. You have now given me a sliver of hope that media someday will be an aide in delivering justice, and not in muffling it away. Thank you

Dear Sisters/Brothers in Humanity: When your anger, hatred, and desire for revenge reaches a breaking point. Ponder, try taking off the invisible garment of nationality (an Israeli or a Palestininian), underneath, there is a garment of ethnicity(a Jew or an Arab),take that garment off, and another one of religion lies beneath,(that of Judiasm or Islam), remove that garment, therein lies a creature made of skin, bones, and flesh, destroy this reality and what you have done is destroyed a HUMAN. Yes, beneath it all, we all belong to the human family. We suffer pain, bleed, and cry the same. When our children, our elders, our young die, we Grieve the same. Ponder, Cogitate, and Weep for a dying friend or an enemy, they are all part of us: The Human Family. As Shakespeare would have said; Sans Nation, Sans Faith, Sans Ideology, Sans Race...The Wisest of the Creation, sometimes acts like a fool; when will we ever learn? Shalom, Salaam, Peace,and Love to All, Khalid

Just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your contributions to Haaretz.It takes courage to tell the truth. If only there were more people like you inside Israel speaking out publicly the way you do. I wish you all the best and please keep up the good work !

I SALUTE YOU FOR YOUR TRUTHFULNESS AND REASON IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT THE PAPERS IN U.S AND EVEN IN CANADA ARE SO HESITANT TO TELL THE TRUTH ,THE VOICE OF REASON IS IN ISRAEL TOO ! I AM A MUSLIM AND I REALLY THINK THAT YOU ARE DOING A GOOD JOB YOU SHOULD HAVE AN INTERNATIONAL PAPER THAT GOES ALL OVER THE WORLD ,THANKs TO THE INTERNET IT DOES BUT MOST PEOPLE RELY ON EASILY ACCESIBLE CNN NEWS ,THANK YOU AGAIN FOR BEING TRUTHFUL AND REASONABLE! I WOULD GIVE YOU A BIG MEDAL IF I COULD!

Like so many ignorant Americans, I have known only what is printed in our newspapers or told on our TV news when it comes to Israel and Palestine. It has seemed to me that Israel was behaving in the fashion of a rogue state, much as I believe the US does in Iraq. I have believed, for lack of information, that the behavior of the government and army was approved of by the populace. Now I read Mr. Levy's story, and see words that agree 100% with my feeling about Israel and Palestine. Thank you for educating me, and please continue to speak truth to power as long as possible. Sally T. Baughn Somerville, OH 45064 USA SallyBaughn@aol.com

Unfortunately none of this would have happened if the US was not dominated by the American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee whereby the US has vetoed 38 motions put before the UN to control the behaviour of Israel Jane from Canada

If there remains hope for that latter-day Sparta that is the state of Israel (the difference being that Sparta was not nearly so corrupted by its relations with the Great King of Persia as Israel is by its relations with the Great King of the USA), it lies in the fact that it still has room for people who, like Gideon Levy, persist in telling their fellow citizens (and us others) uncomfortable truths. When that is no longer the case...

Dutch, really now, why would you think that a body of Criminals could produce a legitimate resolution? I mean come on man, your talking about a group of people that rape, murder, steal, extort etc. etc. with impunity. That inept collection of rabble called the UN is about as representative of Civility as a heard of swine is for a fine perfume. Israel is playing the only option left open to them. Israel will prevail against the entire World. That is if they repent of the decadence infused in their society by those seeking their demise through moral decay.

it is extremely enlighting for a "Shameful westerner" to see that not all citizens of Israel agree with the current Israeli government policies, well said!

Gideon Levy gives me hope that decent human being still exist in this world.

I wonder if Gideon Levy has a mother, son or daughter ? And if he does have one, I will ask Mossad and Shin Bet to visit him and look into his computer at home. It's a shame for Haaretz to print such bulshit ! Where is the Haaretz CEO ? Is he sleeping with the Hamas' boys ?

truer words could not have been spoken. an intelligent thought process well documented. isreal cannot be both a victim and an conquerer of palestinians at the same time. isreal has not been a victim for over 30 years now. time to get over victim complex and take a real look at their role in this conflict.

It is extremely saddening to see how irrational and ignorant Israelis are. Almost 500 responses have been posted and most of them carry very illogical statements to refut Levy's article. I thank Gideon Levy for posting an article that is unbiased, rationale and objective. Now, for the rest of you, learn to use your mind, not your ignorance and stupidity.

I agree with Mr. Levy and Boyd. I see nothing noble in an organized army with the latest deadly weapons pounding a people who not only don't have anything equal, but who have been occupied by this military for the past 60 years. I feel the same about the U. S. occupation of Iraq. Americans, like Israelis, have been brainwashed to believe that violence is justified. Neither the U. S. A. nor Israel will ever have peace (or "security") until they stop nuclear proliferation and stop the indiscriminate killing. Violence only begets violence. According to DNA experts, we all come from about 7 female ancestors and 14 male ancestors. We may look a little different; we may have a different religion or philosophy, but we all bleed red and die when we are mortally wounded.

Yes, Gideon Levy lives in Israel. He is one of the few Israeli journalists who regularly goes to the Occupied Territories. Gideon writes from experience, from what he witnesses first hand unlike so many other Israeli and international journalists. This is why his peices are so powerful and truthful!

I find it a bit ironic,that most of the supporters of Gideon Levy(Khalid) are Muslim,when he's writing for an Israeli paper. maybe I got on the wrong website..this is not Al-Jazeera is it?

There are no gray areas with this conflict...it's black or white. It's survival or no survival. And Israel chooses to send harsh consequences to the muslims of gaza. It's funny how we do not hear any voices in gaza to return Shalit. That's why the palestinians are not intelligent people. They choose to get a pounding. If Shalit is returned and quassams stop, the palestinians can go back to life as usual. The pal's picked hamas and now they have to live with their inferior minds.

Go Palestine! We are with you in your fight for freedom!

So, Gina, when does Israel start arresting and jailing its own terrorists? But I guess it would pose logistical problems imprisoning the whole government, no?

What's all this bashing against Gideon for. Just because he is not a war-mongerer !!

"A state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organization." Wow, this is some pretty wild anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian rhetoric. So, my understanding is that the far left, as represented by the Ha-aretz has gone way out there and is trying the old "If we are on their side, maybe they will spare us" strategy. It didn't work in WWII but perhaps it will work in 2006. Look luck and enjoy Ha-aretz.

I must admit that as a British Muslim, your newspaper does print good and fair articles...keep up the good work Haaretz !!

Its Israel that has been acting as the terrorist for years against the Palestinian people. Since you forgot what this word terrorist means let me remind you: adj : characteristic of someone who employs terrorism (especially as a political weapon); "terrorist activity"; "terrorist state" n : a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities. Unfortunately Israel fits the bill

The state of Israel is in a continued paralysis, until Jews (I am not talking about the fundamentalists here or the Zionists) start taking control back and re-establishing the true values of Judaism which so many Jews gave there life?s for in the cities and towns of Europe.

Its foolish to compare the IDF against the Palestinian forces as a war ? this action by Israel is brutal State sponsored terrorism and reflecting damage to the people of Israel as a whole. This issues is about freedom - the Palestinians want to be free from the years of occupation from a apartheid racist Israeli government. The only way to peace is for Israel to leave and return the land to the Palestinians

Thank you Gideon for writing this courageous piece. It's no surprise that most of your critics do not bother to respond to the arguments you make but rather reduce themselves to rants and ad-homynym attacks charging you with being a "traitor," "enemy" or "Israel-hater." When, in fact, it is not Israel you hate but its policies. Your fierce attack is not against the nation or its people but its actions. You rightfully condemn this hugely disproportionate and in many ways hypocritical action not only because it's wrong but because it tarnishes the name of israel and scars the reputation of its people. I was thrilled to come across your piece and I encourage you to continue criticizing unjust policies. I also hope for the safe return of Cpl. Shalit to his family, but as you rightly point out this operation has nothing to do with securing his release. If anything, it puts his life further at risk. This is just a pathetic effort by Olmert and Peretz to prove they're not weak.

Messaoud - the terrorist attacks of the IDF on Palestinian infrastructure, schools and civilians are truly, truly, evil... ahum, sure, I might even agree with that - but then, what are the Palestinian attacks on schools, restaurants, busses, etc? Somewhere the logic went missing in your comment...

It also helps to put things in their correct context. The 2 Sgts were killed immediately after the British hung several members of the Irgun (including a relative of mine) in Akko Prison. All the pleas for the lives of these Irgun Freedom Fighters were for naught so members of the Irgun exacted revenge from the British with the deaths of the 2 Sgts. It must also be remembered that the British were far from even handed. They confiscated weapons from the Jews leaving them defenseless and supported the Arabs most of the time. Irgun and Stern were small extremist groups and not main stream. On the other hand they understood Arab terrorists and knew what had to be done to defeat them. One can not fight a "clean" war against an enemy who absolutely no morals. They pioneered airline hijackings, Munich massacre, brought terror everywhere they visited and were thrown out of (Jordan,Lebanon). They stab,driveby shoot,suicide bomb innocent people with thinking twice. Now they are on the receiving end but we are still far far too kind. We used stun grenades to try to capture a terrorist hiding in a hospital and not hurt the doctors&nurses. Their terrorists would have murdered our doctor&nurses just as they murdered the 18 year old Eliyahu and countless others. We try to apprehend or assasinate terrorists. We do not target civilians but terrorist hide behind civilians resulting in collateral damage. Now that money and support from most of the world is cut off. After 9/11, Madrid attacks, Amman, Moscow theatre, Bali, and countless others the world is tired of Arab/Moslem Fundamentalist Radical Terror. Israel is leading the world and showing them that we do not back down or capitulate to terrorists. Time is on our side. We must wait and let the lack of electricity & water take its toll. When the terrorists are the weakest, Our army which poised and ready to strike will receive the orders and attack the terrorists until they decimate, crush, destroy, and humiliate them into total defeat. We should not stop until totally and uncompromisingly surrender and accept all our conditions. This opportunity must not be missed. All the world should learn how terrorism must be crushed permanently.

Who is Gideon Levy? Does he live in Israel? I can't grasp the possibility that somebody who stands to lose everything to an overwhelming and demonstrably vicious foe could write about the problems there as he does. If he feels this way, why doesn't he offer himself up in the place of the kidnapped boy, and tell Israel that he would want nothing done to cause him to be returned. I think that would take care of the situation to the satisfaction and relief of all parties.

Thank you, Gideon Levy, for speaking truth in dark times! Israel looks more and more like its big brother, the arrogant, ignorant and aggressive US of A . All that money must be rubbing off. The transgressions and violations outside are soon mirrored as societal decay inside the country. It already shows in the degree of delusion on the part of many of the juvenile minds writing in this space. Just like the states. If it weren't for the suffering of so many people, the agressive smart asses should be allowed to see their thinking in action to the bitter end. But alas, it's mostly innocents who get it in the neck. More power to the peace makers! More power to the truth speakers! Remember, y'all: " Peace is the presence of justice!" Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

As you may know, Frost was not a very nice guy. Once during a talk he was giving at Brandeis an English major tried to pin him down on "miles to go before I sleep", giving six or seven of her thoughts. He looked at her, paused for a moment, and said that he had had to go to the store for a loaf of bread, and it was a long way home. There are some people you shouldn't push.

Compliments on the courage it took to write the editorial; "A Black Flag". I think the only important part missing is that acts like this by the Israeli Government can incite anti-semitism. I have a heavy heart reading the news, not only for the people of Palestine, but for the good people of Israel who have to live with a government that acts savagely on their behalf. Thank you for reminding everyone that there are many decent people in Israel and that their government actions should not reflect on them, Boris

After having read your impassioned article, I want to laud you for your tremendous courage. I have shared it with people in my central Illinois peace and social justice community. It is amazingly refreshing to read a piece with such candor: we don't see this much in our mainstream press. Thank you for educating us.

Jo..(yawn).you sound like a bit of a b...h.(yawn). So go live your boring life(yawn).

(FOR GIDEON LEVY) My Ninth Grade English teacher referred to Helen of Troy with the poetic, if sardonic, "A face that launched a thousand ships." Both the phrasing and insight sound modern, rather than ancient. Where is it from? Do you know? For some reason, the quip just doesn't seem to work with Gilad Shalit. Is it because Gilad Shalit is a young man, to judge from his photograph, not terribly handsome? Or perhaps ships capture the imagination in a way tanks cannot. But sacking a city, supposedly for the sake one man or woman, is as wrong in our own day as it was in the age Homer celebrates. There are some problems violence simply cannot solve. Respectfully, BRUCE TYLER WICK 19443 Lorain Road P.O. Box 26165 Fairview Park, Ohio USA 44126 440-331-9425 440-331-9427 (fax)

It's not nice to cut power, buzz Syria, run people from their homes, arrest half the govt and a fourth of parliament. On the other hand: Realistic negotiating is NOT demanding 1000 "Palestinians" be released form Israel's jails. Persistent conscious delay of a resolution is not negotiating in good faith. Maybe "Palestinians" should think of consequences before they commit criminal acts, too. There are consequences, Israel hasn't been shy about their intentions here, they asked nice a few times, then got nasty. Too bad for the "Palestinians". Ask for troubles, you get troubles. Hamas just wanted to save face, there are obvious consequences. It's also totally unacceptable NOT to return the Israeli soldier. Just do it, and all the troubles go away. Don't you think after over 50 years of literally being under armed seige from their neighbors the Israeli's would have had about enough? Perhaps this harder line is evidence of having had enough?

the word "terrorist" did not exist at that time....it evolves during the hiroshima/nagasaki atomic bombing.News media of all the world called it TERROR...so who is the fist terrorist!

Alan, are you talking about your govenment or the Hamas? Because it seems to me that the Israeli people collectively democratically elected a TERRORIST government as well, and I fear that you all must LEGITAMATELY suffer the consequences as well!

I second your opinion! Jewish people were victims of oppressive regimes for more than 2000 years. In this conflict they occupy the opposite role. They do not understand that there is a big price to pay for being the oppressor.

How many Israelis died because of the rockets that were launched by some criminals? The exact number is ZERO! And how does this justify a invasion of the Gaza strip? Do you know how many British, French or Polish people were kidnapped last year. Did the British French or Polish government declare war on each contry whose citizens were part of the kidnapping? And how many Palestinians were kidnapped by the Israelian army? Hmmmm, they call it not "kidnapping" of course, it called "arrested"! I'm wondering how long the world will continue to watch the criminal conduct of the Israeli government. This is a shame for all of us!

I'm glad you don't think that what the British/UN did was right. If something has been done that is wrong, do you not try and rectify it? Or do you refuse to, thus compounding the wrong? BBL, if someone conned you out of your life-savings when you were 20, would you not try to get them back? And would you not still be trying even when you were 80? And what would you think if the perpetrator said, "hey, other people have done it and gotten away with it. Stop picking on me!" "What I was wondering about, is your own level of animosity towards the borders [in Kashmir]. Does the process that created India and Pakistan also rankle you?" - bbl Oh yes, the anti-semitism card (yawn). So, people can only criticize Israel if they have already criticized every other conflict? If not, they are no better than Nazis? Pathetic. I'll let you have the last word, as I've got a life to lead...

We don't control these things Joe. you wrote: ""Except that actually was up to the British and the UN. You can wish it wasn`t so, but that`s the way it went down." - bbl And you think that was right? Only someone totally bereft of morals would think that such exploitation was right." I don't think it was right. I think it was real. When discussing things that happened 60 years ago, the truth is more important than whether or not we would have done it differently were we in charge. That latter of those two is irrelevant. We weren't there. Nobody asked us to make those descisions. As for Kashmir. Yes, of course I am aware of it's history. Fighting over Kashmir has lead to a death toll that is 10's if not 100's of times higher than the fighting over Israel. What I was wondering about, is your own level of animosity towards the borders there. Does the process that created India and Pakistan also rankle you?

If Israel has citizens like Gideon Levy, who needs enemies?

The authour is pathetic. Firing rockets daily on 20,000 Jews of Sderot is not collective punishment? How can Israel defend itself without incuring collective punishment. Every war has collective punishment. 50 million people lost their lives fighting the Nazis. Any better solution?

"Except that actually was up to the British and the UN. You can wish it wasn`t so, but that`s the way it went down." - bbl And you think that was right? Only someone totally bereft of morals would think that such exploitation was right. "England, unlike other forces in colonial history, returned a great deal of lands (1917-1952) under their extended control back to the native populations. This includes India and Pakistan (Do you have a problem with their borders?)" err... ever heard of Kashmir?? Sheesh. "You live in the stolen land of NY, right? Unless you`re Native American your idea that Jews in Israel are illegitimate are both hypocritical and laughable." As I said in a previous comment on this page, I'M IRISH. I'm in NY on BUSINESS! But what difference does it make anyway? If something is wrong, IT IS WRONG, no matter who else has done it. You're defending the indefensible.

on your point no.3 The refugees may or may be not citizens of other countries. This too is irrelevant, which is why I never mentionned them in any of my posts addressed to you. Which is also what gives me this feeling that you are just not ready to confront the question [see #93] I expected you to honestly answer : Please tell me what the Jewish state should do with the population of the occupied territory? Should we expel them [all 3.5 million of them, according to Sharon] - or offer them Israeli citizenship? Which one of these two options seems to you the more feasible one? I don't think I am too far from the mark by guessing you are strongly in favour of the first one. If I am guessing right, all that remains for you to do - for me to accept your position - is simply to offer a realistic way of convincing the Palestinians they should give up their territory and go build a National Home somewhere else - so that we, Israelis, could live in peace, at last.

About your no.1 To say that it was to escape prosecution as a war criminal that Sharon resolved himself to speak about the occupation as a fact [see #84] is not at all serious, to say the least and no more than that. The same Ariel Sharon who, until this day, had been called the "father of the settlements" by the settlers themselves. Mind you, this is not the best way to inspire anyone not to be "fooled", as you kindly advised me. And anyway, what you obviously failed to, is to ask yourself why the US - who seems so keen to fight islamist terrorism everywhere - felt it was so necessary to pressure Ariel Sharon not to do the same in the territories and, instead, admit that their occupation was bad for both of the conflicting sides. "Controlling 3.5 million Palestinians cannot go on forever", said the former PM Sharon. On no.2 Please fell free to see the treatment of Native Americans by the U.S. as criminal. Be my guest. It has nothing to do with our disputing to the Palestinian people the land on which it yearns to establish its own National Home.

"Huh? The British? The UN? It wasn`t their country to do with what they liked. It was the people of that land." Except that actually was up to the British and the UN. You can wish it wasn't so, but that's the way it went down. The Allies worked their asses off in WWII. At the end, they were holding lands that the they had wrestled and/or protected from the Germans and the Italians. The UN was the representitive body of the world community that was setting the borders all over the globe. England, unlike other forces in colonial history, returned a great deal of lands (1917-1952) under their extended control back to the native populations. This includes India and Pakistan (Do you have a problem with their borders? -- very similar process), Egypt ,Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and from France: Syria and Lebanon. You live in the stolen land of NY, right? Unless you're Native American your idea that Jews in Israel are illegitimate are both hypocritical and laughable.

Truely. I appreciate you revisiting your own comments and revising them when the situation calls for it. As for outlawing war, I think it already is. As for "Now if they could just negotiate a swap and get out and end this tension for everyone--people would feel better." -- I couldn't agree with you more. As for: "It`s really an unnatural state of human affairs to be in. Don`t you think?" -- Sadly, I disagree with you. Seems that's the way we are. I don't think we need to stay that way, but humanity has clearly failed to take the step out of perpetual war. We don't understand how to pursue peace over a sustained period. I think you've seen this and it disturbs you, as it should all of us. But this thing you've got for holding Israel to a higher standard seems to lead to anguish for you. You seem to want to judge the State of Israel as if it was a person. It's no wonder you see fault. Israel is primarily guilty of acting like a country.

The state terrorism exhibited by the zionist icons is unprecedented in the history of human kind.... truly unprecedented. How on earth can any person of a sound mind explain the bombing of bridges, power plants, schools, highways, and civilian buildings? ONLY A TERRORIST IRRESPONSIBLE entity would do that. What kind of state allows itself to kidnapp elected ministers and parlamentarians? ONLY AN IRRESPONSIBLE TERRORIST entity would do that. The terrorsit mentality is what drives the zionists, politicians and military. They are people completely out of their mind. With no regard whatsoever to international law, ethics, let alone any morality! As I said before: Israel has now clearly crossed the line (not the 1st time though). It has deliberately tragetted civilians compounds (bridgres and powerplants). It has kidnapped civilians and elected representatives. It cannot expect a lesser treatment from the Palestinians in the future. The bottle of the jinni has been open.

"The British had promised there would be a Jewish homeland, but they didn`t actually leave the Palestine Mandate until after the UN voted in favor of a Jewish homeland and an extra Arab state between the river and the sea." - Chana Huh? The British? The UN? It wasn't their country to do with what they liked. It was the people of that land. In my opinion, Britain and France went too far when they divided up the middle-east into 'countries'. It was the same thoughtless carving-up that occurred in Africa, with the same result: endless exploitation and conflict. Hey Chana, i have some friends who don't have a place to live. I've said it will be alright if they move in with you. I don't imagine you'll have any problem with that?

Thank you so much for this compelling article - we would be grateful for a voice like this in Austria. As the children and grand-children of the Nazi generation we would really love to embrace Jewish people and Isreal, show them our solidarity, if it were not for the atrocious way they treat their fellow-Palestinians. Please believe us: war and the taking over of land which was not ours led our societies into deep dispear which until now we have not completely overcome. Live and let live! It is the bold voice of Gideon Levy and others which makes the real difference. Tank you. Regina Berger

They LEGITAMATLEY collectivley democraticaly elected a TERRORIST government and they must LEGITAMATLEY suffer the consequences...............

You have got your chronology wrong. The Emirate of Transjordan has been created in April 1921 as an administrative entity, before the British Mandate came into effect. Britain granted Transjordan its full independence in 1946. It was in November 29, 1947 that the UN approved the Partition plan. And it was on May 14, 1948 that the British forces of occupation evacuated what had been, until then, the Mandate territory. Up to this day, and as long as Land of Israel/Palestine was occupied by a foreign army, Ben Gurion had been unable to stand up to his own fanatical extremists. It is on May 22, 1948, that the Altalena episode took place.

Yes, "someone is in charge of Jordan", I too have noticed that. But what I expected was not a re-statement with different words, of what I said in #421. I have this feeling you kind of carefully avoided to answer my question to Cipora - which I repeat here: King Abdullah doesn't put up with terrorists. Yes. But why can he, and Mahmoud Abbas cannot? Could it be the reason is the Hashemite Kingdom is an independent country whose territory is disputed by no one, and totally free of an occupation by a foreign army protecting foreign settlements?

Dutch, please your reaction about the Qassam, which have been daily fired at Israel after Israel has disengaged from Gaza. Do you think Israel has to ignore it? Would Holland ignore if rockets were fired at it on a daily basis? Look what Holland did after one person - van Gogh - was killed. There is so much hate, even turkish schools were put in fire. By your peaceful dutch population.Now you need to integrate, learn dutch in the country u come from to be able to live with your family, and.. perhaps even speak ONLY dutch while walking on the streets! wonderful! even though israel suffers a way more from arab terrorists, israeli arabs still can enjoy from normal family re-union and speak arabic whereever they want to. It always easy to make judgements. Wanna make a difference? Start with your own country.

"If the kidnappers had any love for the people of Gaza, they would....". All too often, aparatchiki couldn't care less about the people of wherever. If anything, they welcome harsh measures taken against the lumpenprole because that fires up their revolutionary fervor.

Danny, Yes, I was terribly worried about the consequences of hitting the power plant. The situation in Gaza is so fragile, especially with the children, I dreaded the worst. Thus I am so glad that no one suffered. Still, it must be terrible for Gazans to have their electricity knocked out and I wish the army hadn't targeted it. Nevertheless, I must apology for my fears and I am very glad they didn't happen. Now if they could just negotiate a swap and get out and end this tension for everyone--people would feel better. I am convinced more than ever we need to outlaw war. It's really an unnatural state of human affairs to be in. Don't you think? Dutch

It is odd that you find fault with trying to decide a question without showing emotion. It is precisely by NOT showing emotion and by thinking things through that one is most likely to get the best results. It was about a war that was on the basis of emotion that it was said that they are now ringing their bells, but soon they will be wringing their hands.

I agree fully with the commentary made by Gideon Levy. It's not only a sad day for Israel but I think the international community do not condone such State terrorism. The policy of "eye for an eye" should stop if we are to live harmoniously in this world. We must not practise the policy of Hitler.

The Blag Flag refers to October 20, 1956 when Israeli soldiers killed 47 Palestinian farmers from the village of Kafr Qasem who were returning to their homes from their fields. The villagers were unawre that Kafr Aqsem had been placed under curfew by the Israeli military. In the subsecuqent investigation into the massacre, the Israeli judge ruled that some orders should not be obeyed, saying "the black flag of illegality" flies over them and this flages "rescinds the soldier's duty to obey and charges him with criminal accountability for his actions". The notion of the blag flag of illegality is the political basis of the Israeli refusenik movement. Levy is right, the black flies over the current assault and it flies over many actions of the Israeli occupation forces in the OPTs for the past 39 years. See http://ww.yeshgvul.org www.seruv.org.il www.shministim.org www.newprofile.org

The PA voted, as part of Oslo, to remove, from the PLO charter, the call for the destruction of Israel. They voted in the mid 1990's. Please share with us the date that the clause was actually removed from the PLO charter. Then explain when Hamas, the current elected government of the Palestinians, officially recognized Israel's existance and its inalienable rights due to its existance. I love a good brain puzzler. I eagerly await you answers.

"It doesn`t matter, the Palestinians will simply outsurvive the Israelis like all other occupiers prior." LOL. You've got to be kidding! Outsurvive the Israelis? The Palestinians are amateurs compared to Jews when it comes to survival. But I do understand your wishful thinking. After all, the likes of you have been trying to eradicate Jews for over 2000 years. Now you are hoping that your Palestinians will finish your job for you.

Not really. Not anyone can be a critic, the proof being the fact that G.Levy and Amira Hass are the only of their kind in Israel. Once again, and in spite of your insistence on the subject, I still don't see why, in order to make their reports more credible, these two brave journalists have to offer any alternate course of action. As I said, to everyone his job. Since you seem so keen "to examine the details of any proposed alternate course of action", have you already examined what is the course of action proposed by the Geneva Accord of December 1st, 2003 ? If not, you can still get an pretty good idea about it with www.geneva-accord.org/FAQ.aspx?FolderID=30&lang=en and www.mepc.org/journal_vol12/0512_rubner.asp

recent israeli action in gaza, as mr. levy points out, are not intended to free the kidnapped soldier -- and will be ineffective in curtailing palestinian violence towards israel. the idf and shin bet should have learned these lessons long ago. if you live by "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" you'll end up blind and toothless (mlk).

Thank you Gideon! Another poignant peice which speaks the truth. Keep up the wondeful thing you do - your a much needed voice for the voiceless. To paraphase Che Guevara - "one, two ... many Gideon Levys (and Amira Hass's)".

Interpretation. If the British arrested a bunch of (pre-state) Isreali's, then it could be called "the British mass arrests" or it could be called "the Israeli mass arrests". Either way, the context of the quote clearly identifies the British as the arrestors and the Israelis as the arrestees (and/or arrested). I don't think Hamas has anything to do with the wording of the quote; as it really couldn't be read, in it's full context, to mean anything other than the British arresting a bunch of Jews.

What is your opinion? B"H

Daily shelling, cutting off electricity, driving thousands of humans away from their homes, all shameful actions a civilized nation should shun.

But I have seen no evidence that contradicts the Wikipedia entry listed earlier. Based upon that and other accumulated knowledge, I'm all set to state, with meaning, "the Arabs started the Wailing Wall riots too". Isn't that what the facts indicate? I'll ask again, from whence your info come, man (or woman, I suppose shouldn't presume to know)?

from the Wikipedia entry, for what that's worth: "In the summer of 1929, a long-running dispute between Muslims and Jews over access to the Western Wall in Jerusalem became steadily more violent, erupting in a week of riots in late August. During the week of riots, 133 Jews were killed and 339 wounded (mostly by Arabs); 116 Arabs were killed and 232 wounded (mostly by British-commanded police and soldiers).... In September 1928, Jews at their Yom Kippur prayers at the Western Wall placed chairs as customary screens between the men and women present. This was described as violating the Ottoman status quo that forbade Jews from making any 'construction' in the Western Wall area. Haj Amin al Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, used this incident as propaganda material, distributing leaflets to Arabs in Palestine and throughout the Arab world, claiming that the Jews are planning to take over Al Aksa, and that action must be taken to stop them" Sound like the lies of Sept 2000. no?

What the Palestinian people have asked for was that the Israelis stop their expansion into the West Bank and East-Jerusalem and start returning confiscated lands and removing the hot-headed Jewish fanatics to are bent on recreating the Biblical Kingdom of Israel. But what the Palestinians got in return for recognizing the State of Israel as part of the Oslo accord was more annexation by Israel of Palestinian lands. So it's time the Israelis stopped lying to themselves.

I really want to know. Because here is what documented history has to say about the riots you speak of: "A commission of enquiry lead by Sir Walter Shaw took public evidence for several weeks. The main conclusions of the Commission were as follows. [Material not in brackets is verbatim.] * The outbreak in Jerusalem on the 23rd of August was from the beginning an attack by Arabs on Jews for which no excuse in the form of earlier murders by Jews has been established. * The outbreak was not premeditated. * The fundamental cause ... is the Arab feeling of animosity and hostility towards the Jews consequent upon the disappointment of their political and national aspirations and fear for their economic future." I will continue in the next post with something that sounds rather familiar...

How ironic that you would write this: "I feel it is a terribly wrong to set anyone up as the enemy and thus I refuse to accept many of your criticism about the Palestinian people. Life is full of gray areas and we must often work hard to get the other perspective. " You consistently set up Israel to be "the enemy" all of your criticism, bar none, stems from that perspective. You have no sense of the grayness when it comes to Israeli actions. For example, look at what 411 wrote. Did you really claim thousands will die? Yet no one has. Doesn't that set off alarms bells in your head? Need a better example, look no further than the post of yours #413 that I'm responding to. "What I wish to see happen in this conflict are two things:(1) the Israelis acknowledge the full and lawful rights of thePalestinians: (2)withdraw from their land at least to the internationally recognized Green Line." Did you notice? You stated no desire to see anything from the Palestinians. That's rich.

"In particular, the attack was made in retaliation for the British mass arrests" your quote/ "In particular, the kidnapping was made in retaliation for the Israeli mass arrests" Hamas quote. And the difference is????????????

HUMMAN RIGHTS FOR MUSLIM WOMEN

You ask why Jordanian Palestinians don't attack Israel? King Abdullah doesn't put up with terrorists. Neither did his father. King Hussein killed THOUSANDS of the PLO terrorists over 30 years ago. The Palestinian Zarqawi attacked Jordan with suicide bombers to kill dozens of Palestinians last year. King Abdullah won't allow Zarqawi's body to poison Jordan's soil, so Zarqawi is buried somewhere else.

According to the right of free people everywhere to forcefully resist the tyranny of fundamentalist Islam as personified by Hamas, and numerous others. The right of free citizens to resist by any means necessary acts of war by criminals who claim to speak for G_od when they say Israel must be driven into the sea. By any means necessary. And please none of the "we'd be as bad as them" crap. Every TOTAL war the West has won against tyrants has increased freedom not limited it.

Krin & Marlene, As always I appreciate your concern and support. Keep it coming, please ! I need every bit! God Bless Gideon Levy and others at Haaretz for bringing us the truth. It is fundamantal to a democracy and to justice and peace in general! It's too bad people in Israel and apologists bark at great writers like Gideon, Amira and Akiva, Meron and others when they are held in the highest esteem on this side of the Atlantic. What a shame! They are like Israel's light to the nations. (We know the core is still good.) Thanks anyway, Dutch

If yours is a realistic description of what the Jewish state has come to, 40 years after its astounding victory of '67, it is nothing but a damning indictment of the inept policy our leaders have so obtusely pursued in the territories during all those long years. And you still have to explain why no islamist organization is terrorising innocent Israeli civilians with rockets, from the Jordanian territory, in spite of the fact that 70% of its population is made of Palestinians? And why not one of them has ever crossed the river to enter Israel sovereign territory and kill its soldiers? Could it be that the reason is the Hashemite Kingdom being a country whose territory is disputed by no one, and totally free of an occupation by a foreign army protecting foreign settlements?

Human Rights Watch is calling it a "war crime" for the Palestinian groups to be holding a soldier hostage. A whole bunch of other human rights groups are asking the Palestinians to treat Cpl Shalit according to the rules of the Geneva Convention! (Look - up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! No, it's an airborne split-hooved animal that doesn't chew its cud!)

I see that we aren't the only ones with cowardly liberals who think appeasement is the only answer. Gird up your loins!! The Phillistine can not be reasoned with.

it is so true--everyone is screaming that israel is doing all this for the return of one soldier but the truth is we should not forget the two other young soldiers that were murdered at the same time--israel is doing this so that we wont have to continue to worry that more soldiers would be kidnapped or murdered if we just stood idle--

On that day in August in 1929, the extremist right wing Zionists headed by Jabotonsky the pre-cursor to Likud weren't satisfied with the Wall and wanted to take Palestinian holy sites. The Jews started that conflict, got their rears handed to them by the Arabs, and then the Brits were called on to exterminate the "Arab Savages". The myth that Israelis are so innocent is definitely becoming harder to swallow for more people everyday when they realize Israel's power compared to Palestinian's. It doesn't matter, the Palestinians will simply outsurvive the Israelis like all other occupiers prior.

Such a shame what Israel is doing in Gaza- Even my grandfather- who hates Hamas and Fatah and any political group, had his property struck by a missile- the picture was on the front page of the haaretz website earlier. Barabarians those IAF.

Yep, Communism is making a comeback in Rosh (Russia) The cheif prince of Rosh will gather his army along with the Kings of the East in the battle of Hamagog.

GET WHAT WE ARE UP AGAINST? ANY EUROPEAN HERE GOING TO SAY ANYTHING? DON'T THINK SO. WAIT...ISRAEL'S FAULT, YES, YES. ARABS? A ZIONIST LIE. CHOOSE YOUR LINE. THE TRUTH WON'T EVER GO AWAY. B"H

Yonatan, I feel there is quite a difference between what you want out of this conflict and what I want. You often talk about collective punishment towards the Palestinian people: Sometimes it is "just hit them harder" other times it is "flatten" them out or their property out. While I understand you come from a long tradition of the former approach (which I would never endorse), your latter approach disturbs me greatly. I feel it is a terribly wrong to set anyone up as the enemy and thus I refuse to accept many of your criticism about the Pale- stinian people. Life is full of gray areas and we must often work hard to get the other perspective. What I wish to see happen in this conflict are two things: (1) the Israelis acknowledge the full and lawful rights of the Palestinians: (2) withdraw from their land at least to the inter- nationally recognized Green Line. Now, if these two things don't occur in a peaceful manner; then they will have to be done through the international alliances and with the help of the Security Council. The law must be enforced at some level if necessary to ensure the rights of the Palestinian people. I don't wish to harm anyone in Israel but I can't stand this human injustice and deprivation anymore. The Palestinian people must have their rights & land back. Thanks, Dutch

It isn't a matter of if the Jews deserve it, It is a promise of YHVH. YHVH said that Mt. Zion is His most beloved place in the universe. It is His. It belongs to Him and He promised it to Judah and Benjamin and the other 10 children of Israel. All of them. Write Judah on one stick and Israel on the other and hold them in your hand. They will be joined together, but that hasn't happened yet. Right now we are living in the prophecy of Jeremiah, two baskets of figs at the altar of YHVH. (Jarusalem)

On friday you were claiming that thousands of children would die because of Israel hitting the power station. Not one has died, not even a adult has died as a result. So you were lying, maybe you could apologise?

Also we have ALWAYS provided the Palestinians with electricity - where exactly did you think the other "60%" came from?

Beginning of "transfer" of Gazan arabs - firstly where to? secondly why would we pull out if we are going to transfer 1.3 million arabs to some mythical other place? Finally, do you actually engage your brain before you post?

So you think that it is a pity that the British left. I thought that you were in favour of self-determination and against colonialism. Of course, I know that people like you have no trouble holding two contradictory views at one time.

I am old enough to remember the Sinai Campaign, the Six-Day War, the Yom Kippur War, the Peace for Galilee, and, of course, today when Israel is attempting to rescue Gilad Shalit. Never once in my lifetime has Israel EVER asked for or requested ONE American soldier to fight for Israel. I am well aware of the Anti-Semetic claim throughout the two thousand history of Jews in the Golos (Galut) that Jews are cowards and are talented at manipulating Gentiles to do the fighting for the Jews. Mary Quinnan: you can take that claim and shove it.

Yeshua is coming soon! And for you muslim terrorists, who have erected that dome (where the Holy of Holies once stood) that blasphemes, "God has no Son"; you Muslims who put a cemetery in front of the Eastern Gate since you knew the prophecies of the coming Messiah; you Muslims who walled up the eastern gate to prevent the Messiah from entering...your day is coming!!! You've done nothing throughout history but cause trouble; you hate the Jews, calling them decendants of Monkeys and Pigs. Why?! Your day, you murderers of the innocent, is coming. The Lion of the Tribe of Judah is going to devour you with His sword of Truth! Your Mahdi will be sent to Hell along with the false prophet! Repent and make Jesus your Lord and Savior before it's too late! God knows we're ALL sinners and could never be good enough to enter Heaven on our own merit; that's why HE SENT HIS SON TO PAY OUR RANSOM IN HIS HOLY BLOOD! If you're so blood thirsty, get aquainted with the BLOOD OF THE LAMB!

Gideon Levy wants the Islamists to win. He evidently loves Islamofascist rule and Radical Hamas/PRC Islamism rulers in Gaza: All Women in Burkahs and Veils, PA Kids educatd to crave death by Homidcide/Suicide; all Homosexuals killed, all Girls who look at men to have their throats cut. All Infedels to have their throats cut.

Mike (from Columbia, Mo.) you ask what "Do-gooders" would do to solve this interminable Hell we call the Middle East Crisis. We could start by putting aside pejoratively intended stereotypes like "do gooders" or "pacifists". My model for a start to reconciliation of two apparently intent and immovable forces, Israel and the Palestinians, is the school room fight, where the teacher gets between the combattants. The first step is for a neutral force to physically intervene. This either by acceptance on both sides or otherwise. The whole world continues to suffer over this Hell in the "Holy land". Militarily separate the two sides exactly along the lines the U.N. has suggested, establishing in this buffer zone a peace even if necessary by "police" force and international punishment of violators. Provisionally Hong Kongize Jerusalem and in the long-term interest of both combattants put their reps in a room with door-locks that don't open until a permanent settlement is reached.

Gideon Levy chooses to defend Radical Islamist Fundamentalists- he just loves them. He LOVES Islamofascism and wants to see them defeat Israel and the West so that women can all wear Burkahs and all Infedels can be converted by force to Islam

Gideon Levy: Fascist Socialist loves and protects terrorist murderers from those who wish to defend freedom.

BEFORE WRITING ABOUT HISTORY OUT OF CONTEXT JANICE I SUGGEST YOU READ THE TERMS OF BRITAINS MANDATE .THE FAILURE TO IMPLEMENT ITS TERMS . THE TREACHERY THROUGHOUT THE YEARS FROM 1920 UNTIL BRITAINS LEFT SHOULD BE DILIGNTLY READ. ALSO THE BRITISH ARMY AND POLICE DID NOT DEAL KINDLY WITH ARAB TERRORISTS AS YOU SUPPOSE .

Not a "Gideon", certainly not a "levy", rather, LEFTIST COMMUNIST MORONIC DANGER TO JEWS and CIVILIZED DEMOCRACIES WHO HAVE A RIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AGAINST THE TERRORISTS YOU LOVE.

I never would have expected to see the truth reported by Der Spiegel: Hamas?s Strategy: ?No Matter What, the Violence Will Never Stop?. http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,424505,00.html Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook is second in command of the political Hamas leadership in Syrian exile. In an interview, he tells SPIEGEL ONLINE that the agreement with Fatah on the foundation of a Palestinian state does not mean that his organization will recognize Israel. Hamas, he say, will remain committed to violence against its occupier. SPIEGEL ONLINE: Israel has accused the political office of Hamas of organizing the abduction of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Was this kidnapping ordered by Damascus? Abu Marzook: No, that is not true. Israel has often falsely accused us in similar instances. It is not our task to make such decisions: They are made by the military wing. The military and political wings work independently of each other. SPIEGEL ONLINE: That means that the political leaders are not consulted prior to an action? Abu Marzook: We are no experts here on military issues. We never know in advance about military actions, when or how they take place. SPIEGEL ONLINE: That would indicate that there is no coordination between the wings of Hamas. Abu Marzook: But of course there is, because our actions relate to the same strategy, under which everything is organized. And that strategy is to resist the occupation of Palestine. A part of Hamas pursues this goal politically, and another pursues it militarily. SPIEGEL ONLINE: Now, Hamas has approved the so-called ?Prisoners? Paper,? which recommends a two-state solution. Does that mean that Hamas is now prepared to recognize the state of Israel? Abu Marzook: With this agreement, we have primarily agreed to strengthen the resistance in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.Aside from that, we have agreed on the goal of establishing a Palestinian state in these areas. SPIEGEL ONLINE: Doesn?t that mean that Hamas inevitably accepts the Israeli state in the rest of that area? Abu Marzook: The paper does not say that at all.It is purely about the future of our people and about how a government uniting all Palestinian factions can work on building their independent state. SPIEGEL ONLINE: And does Hamas also believe that an Israeli state can exist alongside a Palestinian state? Abu Marzook: Hamas has always said clearly: We will never accept the occupation, because it is not legal, not correct and not just. And by "occupation", Hamas, of course means the existence of Israel.

your comment was completely uneducated and i hope nobody bothered to read it. instead if instantly labelling both sides as terrosits, why dont you try actually learning about both sides..education is power buddy.

Kadima means...go forward. Now, where? Olmert? Where are you taking the nation? Lets not forget that the author of this article is a friend of Shimon Peres. I really want to know what Peres and Barak are thinking of all this mess. Probably we have crazy Hamas palestinians thinking that Israel dont exist. But, Olmert seems to think that normal Palestinians dont also exist because they voted Hamas... I think that the article seems to be very pointing against this military structure. But, is this the Voice of the laborists again like Peres? Why these guys are so silent?

Israel did not start this agression even though she must finish it! If the PA gets away with this brutal kidnapping and murder of these 18 and 19 year old kids more violence just like it will continue What is not legitimate?? I tell you one thing that is not - the death of those two boys at the hands of Palestinian thugs and terrorists Tell thhose two boys parents what Israel is doing in response is not legitimate!

can listen to the voice of reason in Mr. Levy's words, most probably Israelis will be enjoying a greater measure of security. The operation in Gaza is not only 'illegitimate', but could only be described as the worst kind of state terrorism perpetrated against hundreds of thousands of innocent people. These are the same people who can make or break the peace and security of Israelis.

The British had promised there would be a Jewish homeland, but they didn't actually leave the Palestine Mandate until after the UN voted in favor of a Jewish homeland and an extra Arab state between the river and the sea. In the years before the British left, they gave away most of the Palestine Mandate to Jordan (with pieces of it also going to Syria and Lebanon.) The Brits didn't have the courage to fulfill their promise. They couldn't stand up to Hitler's WWII allies in the Arab world.

The Jews in Israel deserve Israel. The Jews are the real refugees. The goal of Islam is to make the world submit to its authority. Islam means "submission". In Arab/Communist countries, which are in no way peaceful to other religions except for money, Jews have been persecuted, and they wanted to find a home where they could escape persecution. So, they took back the land in which the great king David and the great king Solomon ruled under G-d all the lands that were inhabited by Jewish Israelites. If you consider god to be Allah or believe that Hashem (YHVH) is Allah, why didn't Allah stop the Jews from getting back in Israel? Allah could have done many thing, or sent his power messengers, but he sent no one that has yet been successful or is succeeding. Yet Hashem will always look after his Jewish people, the only people in the world 3500 or so years ago that accepted his law and his worship. Although there are those secular in Israel, there are many righteous there.

From its ashes, the Communist Phoenix shall rise, and it shall spread forth its massive wings to cover the entire Middle East.

Anyone can be a critic. It's easy to point out the risks in any plan of action, especially during wartime, but this becomes absolutely useless if Levy does not offer any credible alternative. And we must be able to examine the details of any proposed alternate course of action, because the devil is in the details. -B-

I wonder if those Israelis praying for the return of the soldier held by Hamas have ever heard of Sgt. Martin or Sgt. Paine ? Probably not as they were kidnapped and murdered in 1947 by Jewish terrorists. The terrorists demanded the release of two of their number who were sentenced to death for murder. The British Govt. refused to negotiate and,after the executions the bodies of Martin and Paice were found, hanged from trees. As a nice touch the terrorists booby trapped the bodies and a British Officer was seriously injured while taking them down.But I doubt that this is in any history books in any Israeli school. Great Pity that Britain finally gave in to Jewish terrorism and left Palestine. M.

The Israelis in 1948!!

It is a shame that these leftists that dont know anything about security in Israel are able to write on your webpage. There is no peace, just security for our land of Israel.

Of course there is all kinds of garbage on talkback...but there are ideas and feelings from the guts..expressed in all kinds of ways..and a shared noise among people such that no one can participate without being changed, even in the most minut of ways...even if it is just the smallest refinement of one's own thoughts. A kind of Hisenberg Principle applicable to raised voices. I find among the most admirable traits of the Jewish people is the ability to pour everything into an exchange of ideas and feelings..screaming and yelling..cold invective..tears and pain...all the gaul and honey one can muster...and come out with some new fusion of the two...even if often unintended. So thanks to Haaretz and all the gang for letting me participate...and learn. Learn that I have more kindred souls in Isreal than I ever dreamed...and among the abrabic voices as well . Don't you dare stop Talkback!!

It is not legitimate to fire Qassam rockets into peaceful Kibbutzes. It is not legitimate to tunnel 700 metres into pre-1967 borders to kidnap an Israeli soldier. It is not legitimate for political heads of state(?)to have no control over their military. And it is not legitimate to take your orders from inside another country (Syria).

two words: HATRED . IGNORANCE .

I always wonder if Harretz talkback pages is a collection of random opinions or a result of a sustained campaign to destroy reasonable debate about the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts. None of anyone's comments here really gets to the heart of Mr. Levy's article: why is it that what the Palestinians do is "terror" and what the Israeli's do is "legitimate self defense"? Or please, keep killing each other- we need our daily bad news from the Middle East here in North America.

What country do you reside in?

...then the Hamas people are IDIOTS to refrain from releasing the soldier immediately. They're watching as everything they own is destroyed. They're saying that Israel is doing this as an opportunity to hurt them while they have an Israeli soldier. So why don't they give the soldier up safe and sound to Israel? The attacks on southern Gaza would have to stop immediately. Why does Hamas let itself be destroyed for the sake of holding onto ONE SOLDIER? It's really, really STUPID if what you're saying is true (that Israel is taking advantage of the opportunity of this abduction to hurt the Palestinsians' chances of having a homeland.)

Harshness must be put in perspective. How many Palestinian lives have been lost. How many have died during the past week's military maneuvers. Indeed, there is threat, there is risk, and there is the potential loss of life hanging around due to the depletion of fuel and water. But so far, the casualty count is less than 10 a figure that the single car bomb in Baghdad equaled a multiple number of times over. Indeed, what the hell for? Perhaps Mr. Levy should go and ask the residents of Sderot and Ashkalon that question before brazenly dismissing the actions of the IDF. Likewise, if he so uninterested in the well being of Corporal Shalit, he should stand up and offer his own exchange, his body for that of the soldier's.

Other such indignities include the use of IDF soldier's heads, as football's in Gaza. Such actions come amidst kidnappings and beheadings in Iraq, of both soldier and civilian. Where diplomats, both from the UN and Arab nations, have been targeted for death, and a number of them brutally murdered. Meanwhile, Muslim clerics support such actions with fatwas and their refusal to condemn these individuals or their actions. At the same time, Muslim and Arab government leaders are either calling for, or supporting the total elimination of Israel. Within this miellieu, one must legitimatelly ask what is right and wrong, to save the life of a soldier, and protect the lives of Israeli citizens. Gideon Levy's, like other critics complain of every action taken by Israel to achieve the above goals. Violent actions, such as the IDF's military moves, are equated with the elimination of power.

BOYCOTT ALL ISRAELI GOODS AND SERVICES! The lying cheating Zionists will not win the war of Truth and Justice. They hiden their crimes from the world for to long, but now they want to limit the internet because the Truth is coming out about their racists ways and Hate for all things not Jewish. Why don't they allow freedom in Israel? END THE APARTHEID NOW OR SNIVEL LIKE SOUTH WHITE AFRICANS WITH NO ONE WANTING THEM.

This morning, on its front page, the New York Times reported that a car bomb, killed 60 people in a market in Baghdad. This attack comes just days after a suicide bomber plowed into a mosque, where a funeral was being held (of all things) for an Iraqi soldier killed in the line of duty. Gideon Levy's comments come after a five year campaign of sucide bombs, which have targeted every conceivable civilian place, including hospitals, schools, restaurants, busses, shopping malls, and armed Palestinians have invaded such military compounds as children's bedrooms killing mothers and children in their beds. This comes after Palestinian mobs lynched Israeli soldiers, speaking to the fiance of one soldier and telling her that as they spoke, he and his comrades were beating her beloved to death. This comes after Israeli children like Kobe Mandel were beaten so badly by Palestiniains that the mother was not able to recognize her own child.

I am responding concerning Gideon Levy's article. I am a Jew who emigrated from Russia in 1975 with my family. Having read the article, I must admit, this whole thing about Gilad Shalit has been blown out of proportion. Why the hell could not Israel release some of the parliamentarians for information? Then, after the soldier was located, the rest could be released. Also, though I sympathize with Israel, the violence is getting way out of hand. For what? One soldier? Hey, didn't World War One start with the assassination of one man? Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria-Hungary on June 28, 1914? I must admit, Gideon Levy put it pretty correctly. Too many people are getting killed. Too many lived disrupted. And Israel's reputation is being tarnished. What, could not commandos do the job? And one more thing. Atlantis was a country, a nation. It did exist, between 200,000 - 9560 B.C.

http://palestinechronicle.com/story-062906234217.htm

Also, HALF of the Jews in Israel come from families who had been living under Islamic rule in the Arab world for many hundreds of years. Israel is a Jewish nation. MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of Jews were born there in the past 100 years. The vast majority of so-called Palestinians were born elsewhere. Only a very small percentage of Pals who fled in 1948 are still alive. All the other Pals were born in places other than the part of Israel that's inside the green line. Israel is a done deal. Get over it.

1) IDF had very bad records throughout the antisemites of the world. 2) Saying that the Jews "are controlling most of the media in the western countries" shows the true color of your antisemitic madness. 3) Al-Aqsa is just a pile of stones of no importance. Jerusalem is nothing for the muslims, as it is NEVER mentionned in the Kuran. 4) The Muslims have never protected the Jews; on the contrary, they have during more than 1300 years killed, murdered, tortured, mutilated, pogromized, esclavagized, the Jews. In France, we know the Muslims of your kind: Muslims have burned and attacked more than 30 synagogues during the last 5 years, and 85% of the antisemitic crimes are commited by Muslims.

The Pal terror organizations can't be allowed to exist in the Holy Land. I'm very glad to see that Israel is taking the time to destroy them now. The Pal terror groups are Hamites (slaves of slaves) and they will always do what is not in the best interests of their people or anyone's people. Israel has to keep bringing them down until there's nothing left of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade, etc.

I see one bad thing and one good thing in Gideon Levy's article: The bad thing: this article is completly stupid. The good thing: nobody cares about what Gideon Levy thinks.

Negotiations have proven ineffective and this is the next logical step. I give 100% support and believe that the given land needs taken back given back if earned.

57 islamic countries 22 arab countries but the desire to wipe ISrael out never ends for these failed societies....despite the palestinian country of Jordan "Palestine" has as much chance as becomeing a country as Atlantis does.

If Israel truly wants peace it has to chose. A) Be a true democracy, end the apparthide give everyone within the border you control citizenship, or B) End the occupation, withdraw from the occupied territory

everyone is so quick to judge israel--#230 is right lets see how gideon levy would feel if it were his child laying and waiting or better yet fearing his fate--israels retaliation is a matter of survival--we did not throw the first punch--its ironic to hear the pa call foul--let the other arab nations put pressure on them that if they cont. to behave barbaric that is how they will be treated--if we cont. to allow them to get away with such behavior they will never cease--

what jews dont understand is that the palestinians have a legitimate right to defend themselves, palestine inlcuding the whole of israel belonged to the palestinians, 90% of israelis or shall we say jews are foreighners to that land. It wasnt the palestinians who came looking for a war it was the jews. Jewish lives arent worth more then palestinians and vice versa, however when jews think everything was given to them by God thats when u say "get a life". Long live PALESTINE!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Gideon Levy for your wise and measured words. Would that there was a newspaper in the US with the courage to say what you say or with the courage to reprint this compassionate and courageous article.

Step 1: Haaretz prints controversial article Step 2: Good people battle rabidanti-semiteshate commentson Talk-back Step 3: Smart ISraelis @ Haaretz get more $$$ for increased website visits and raise advertising rates. Repeat daily. Hve a great day suckers!

I could not give two figs about your outrage and please do not lecture me about Jewish values and the Jewish religion. Please share your values with people more deserving of them. I am sick and tired of your Humanism and so called evenhandedness. You my dear have no clue about Jewish values and or the Jewish religion. DO NOT PRESUME TO FOIST YOUR TWISTED LOGIC AND VALUES ON ME.

If nobody knows, how would you know? "Don't be right, be smart." When driving, that might be true. Here we are talking about a conflict that has defeated some of the smartest minds. In such a situation a clear understanding of what is legally permissible can be very important. The law is a necessary condition for the functioning of all societies even if not sufficient. I understand that political decisions cannot be totally dependent on legal theory, but then you would be the first to complain about legal violations. Indeed, your clinging to the idea of hudna is legalistic. Since Hamas is the elected government, they are responsible for what happens under their noses. This is not legalistic, simply practical: someone has to be in charge, and regarded as such. If the kidnappers had any love for the people of Gaza, they would accept the suggestion of freeing him, with the knowledge that in the near future, as a goodwill gesture, Israel would release some of the youngest in its custody

It is not G.Levy's business to offer "a credible program that can bring about a peaceful settlement." This what elected politicians are payed to do. And which they don't. G.Levy's business is to report what he knows and what he sees. In other words, what the vast majority of the Israelis prefer not to know and not to see.

July 2, 2006 Israel cares nothing for this captured Israeli soldier who put his life on the line (well not really, Israeli troops don't really take risks that could hurt them) for his country. If Israel cared about him they would stop whining about him having been 'kidnapped' (he was not) and instead negotiate his release. By waging an insane war of aggression against innocent civilians to demonstrate its temper (and its US-financed weapons) it is endangering Gilad's life, and confirming to the world what most already know -- that Israel is an out of control spoiled little pipsqueak of a state that is anything but a democracy and places no value on any life that isn't Jewish. No crime was committed during the daring commando raid when Gilad was captured, as any soldier knows is a possibility when he takes up arms against another people. Israel is just having a hissy fit because for once it was one of theirs who got captured. At least his captors didn't assassinate him on the spot, as Israelis always do with their ‘captives’ even though it usually decides they were militants only after they are dead. Free Palestine!

Jordan Palestine has a law banning Jews from citizenship. Israel has equal rights for all. Dont tell me Arabs are second class citizens. Thats BS. There are problems with Ashkenazi vs Sephardi, Secular vs Religious, Arab vs Druze, Christian vs Muslin, etc. You know what, all Democracies have problems. Israel is better than many, worse than others, but the fact that Jordan Palestine is 80% of historic Palestine, ethnically cleanses the land of its native Jews and has had a law banning Jews from citizenship for almost 100% years shows 100% than Zionism is NOT racism, and Arab Palestine is 100% racist.

"Ben Gurion..has an agenda to spread. No matter what you say and how you say it, he must go on. He gets paid." - Shin Beit Epsilon (semi-moron) The forums are dark, full of dread, But I have an agenda to spread, And miles to go before I'm dead, And miles to go before I'm dead.

I have some sympathy, Aussie, but the fact is that Hamas wouldn't exist without Zionism. Jews can (and do) exist peacefully in many countries. Before you start saying that "they can't because of the threat of anti-semitism", just remember that what's going on in Israel is likely to CAUSE a resurgence of anti-semitism. Living HUMBLY amongst others is not.

never have peace............. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/733742.html

"What gives a Russian the right to emigrate to Israel and make it his new home, while a Palestinian who was born there cannot return to the home he grew up in? What right? - the fact that he is a Jew and not an Arab." It's not about rights. Can a Jew return to his home in Gaza, the West Bank, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, or Lybia? Jews were in these places for centuries prior to the establishment of Israel. After WWII one hundred million people were displaced. In India 7 million Muslims got up and moved to Pakistan. In Pakistan 7 million Hindus got up and moved to India. All over the globe folks moved to "their side of the line". The Jews in the Palestinian mandate did and in the process the young state of Israel absorbed an astounding number of refugees. The fact that the Palestinians choose a different path does not make Zionism racist. The creation of a Zionist state was done with the explicit guarentee of rights for all citizens regardless of their ethnicitiy.

Cipora, we have a saying in Israel, "Don't be right, be smart". (Used for behavior in traffic.) This applies to real life, although they don't teach it in law school. I don't want to go thru your "legal" arguments, just think if actions taken by Israel have improved its situation or worsened it. (I don't imply anything about your arguments, just not worth the effort.) Let me only deal with your "factual" statements: 1. The hudna was observed by all of Hamas, not just part of it. 2. If Qassams were developed with Hizballah, how do you know who gave Islamic Jihad the knowledge about longer range Qassams? The only reason Israel SUSPECTED Hamas might have given Qassams to IJ, was that they used longer range than in the past. But they also used Katyushas, obviously obtained from Hizballah. Nobody knows, and you will be the last to know in any case.

History lesson - Jews were living in Israel way before 1948 and took the offer of the lesser portion by the League of Nations, whereas the Arabs (apart from the Jordanians) refused. If the people now known as the Palestinians now had the "right to return" - that would equal the right to obliterate the Jews. Its not a case of racism its a case of survival. If the Palestinians were willing to share, there would be no problems. But read the Hamas Charter, they do not want some of Israel, they want all of it. They are the real racists. Their Islamic goals are to "return Israel to Allah". Their numbers would not ensure equality, it would ensure annihilation. So to change your equation: Zionism = Survival Islam/Hamas = Racism/Death to Jews

"Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, and Saudi Arabia were not colonized. The people were helped to develop nations, along European lines." Most of these nations were set up by the Europeans to be ruled by a minority section of their native population. For example, the house of Saud in Saudia Arabia. Or making a Heshemite Kingdom out of Jordan which was populated by Syrians, Iraqis and yet to be defined Palestinians. In Israel, the attempt was made for a two state solution in which the ruling class in each country would actually be representitive of the majority population. As much as I detest current the Iraq war, it does distinuish itself from the traditional pattern of colonialism in that the government that is being set up by the occupational forces is proprotionally representitive. In the past, the colonizer struck up bargins with minority populations to create puppet governments; The survival of which would then be dependant on the support of the previous occupying power.

READ ALAN DERSHOWITZ BOOK THE CASE FOR ISREAL.CHAPTER 21 it tells you why.

I couldn't read the article to the end, so indignated! If what it is doing is wrong, maybe if we pray they release Shalit! Wake up Mr Levy.

I looked back at title of my posting "Mike -- clouded history" It does look as though I'm attributing the cloudiness to you. That was not my intention. All this does go to show, however, that misunderstandings are easily clarified when the medium for communication is civil. I respect your willingness to revisit my posting and to take me at my word regarding the meaning of what I wrote; which was, as I'm now agreeing, not entirely clear. Everybody see how much easier it is when people are not only forgiving of the mistakes of others but also are willing to admit the mistakes that they themselveds have made? Anybody know how to translate those qualities to the behaivor of nations?

I am the least racist person you could imagine. Arabs who follow my posts know this since I treat with respect even those I know to be members of Hamas. Israel's action in Gaza was precipitated not only because of the kidnapping from Israel of a member of the IDF, but also because Israeli border towns had been subjected to hundreds of rockets fired from Gaza for many months. I find the situation in Gaza to be tragic, but no one can save Gaza from leaders who care more about power than the children. Just to conclude, I am very familiar with both Nazism and Communism. They both are ideologies for the corrupt and the heartless.

actually it may be more accurate to guess the Israeli gov't learned their present foreign/military policies from the excesses of its sponsor, the US gov't. Talked to any native Americans lately?

Bravo Gideon Levy speak your heart and your mind until they listen. signed, an American dissatisfied with my own country - and working to clean up the mess.

Zionism = Racism. What gives a Russian the right to emigrate to Israel and make it his new home, while a Palestinian who was born there cannot return to the home he grew up in? What right? - the fact that he is a Jew and not an Arab. Zionism = Racism. Israel is a 21st century day abomination.

Nobody is insulting your intelligence - just stop pretending that the world is as dumb as you would like. You think that the seizing of one member of an organization that had just killed people who were not a threat, including - as seems to be the Israeli creed - children "justifies" your selfish, racist, spoilt-brat attitude ? We all know that Gaza is and was meant to be a Ghetto - and all Jews know what we call the people who keep the people inside the Ghetto and persecute them. (Interesting to remember that it was the Nazi WOMEN who howled the loudest against the Jews even persecuting the children - strange how history repeats itself). As Brecht said: "suppose they gave a war and nobody came - why then the war would come to them." And nobody will care when it does. You deserve it.

" if the Arab states had been successful in the campaign, I suspect that Palestinian Jews would have been driven out of the Holy Land. They would have their leaders to blame, because of their devious conduct."- Jo They wouldn't have given it back????

"Had the combined arab armies been successful when they attacked in `48 what would have happened to 'occupied Israel'? What do you think should have happened to her?" If Zionists hadn't formulated a plan to snatch the land from the Arabs in order to establish a 'Jewish State' (against the desire of the majority of the people there at the time) there wouldn't have been a war. As it is, if the Arab states had been successful in the campaign, I suspect that Palestinian Jews would have been driven out of the Holy Land. They would have their leaders to blame, because of their devious conduct. If they had been good neighbours from the outset, the war-zone we know as Israel could be a peaceful country known as Palestine. A country which favoured no-one. But the Zionists decided to greedily bite off more than they could chew, and so they will be forever choking.

At least not everyone has gone completely mad in Israel. Thank you Mr. Levy.

You and BG are the worst propagandists one could possibly imagine. What crop desrtuction, what depopulation are you talking about? Neither you, nor your friend BG, know the least bit about international law. If you think that you can threaten the sitting Prime Minister of Israel via the internet, then wake up, and think before you write your nonsense. Now BG has come up with his idea of "ghandi effect." I am sure that poor Ghandi, who was a truly great man, would be horrified to learn that his name is being used to justify the acts of a terror entity. I know you and BG better than you think I do. You both lose your nerve when the going gets rough.

Howdy Patrick; The IVth Geneva Convention is a mandatory international treaty like the Law of the Sea. It applies to all parties in an armed conflict regardless of whether or not they are signatories to it. One can always opt-in, but one cannot opt-out. Of course, arresting and prosecuting violators can be difficult like the Janjaweed in the Sudan.

Please, do not insult my intelligence. Your boys had been planning their terror attack within Israel for months. It takes time to plan an assault on an Israeli military target, especially within Israel itself. In particular, it takes time to dig a tunnel of many hundreds of meters into Israel proper. That operation was a terror operation, pure and simple.

This is war. Grow up. The terrorists in Gaza rocket us; Hamas suicide bomb us; the people voted into power a terrorist organization; and they knew what they were voting for. Only, they tought that the Jews would once again roll over and give in to "world opinion" (read: anti-semitism). We enter a new age and a new paradigm. We've spent 3500 years trying to make peace with "this or that." Now, Israel will use its power, and ultimately we have the Bomb. Don't forget it.

Hamas has threatoned to start attacking Israeli schools, hundreds of rockets have been fired from Gaza, Palestine is ruled by a government that calls for the destruction of Israel,and Palestinian TV has started to again show the clips glorifying child suicide bombers. So Mr. Levy, and all the do-gooders out there who hold Israel accountable on a higher level than the Palestinians, please do tell us how we solve this riddle? What are we to do? You say the fence is wrong, you say we should go through diplomatic channels, and offer up every possible solution except DEMANDING that the Palestinian government get its act together and enforce the rule of law within its own area. It is easy to criticize those in charge when you have no responsiblity. All you peaceniks out there who want to help please volunteer to go to the Negav and act as human shields from the rockets being fired from Gaza. Or, volunteer to go chat with your comrades and ask them nicely, pretty please, to stop.

Gideon Levy deserves nothing but respect. If the Israelis elect someone like Gideon Levy, then one meeting between Mr Levy and Mr Abass will put an end to the conflict forever. The only ones who will not be satisfied in that case is Pat Robertson and G.W. Bush!

"It should be clear to all that had the Palestinians adopted Gandhi`s way of nonviolent resistance, they would have had a state long ago." - Ben Gurion A peace offensive is something Israel could not stand up to. "Israel better bring this to a quick end if it does not want the Palestinians to be the `indians`. - Ben Gurion There was a tendency in the world, even some of the Arab press, to view Hamas as the obstructionists since the election (by not recognizing Israel). This has reversed in a big way. What is very worrying to me is that Olmert is even making statements that indicate it is his intention to collectively punish the Palestinians for the actions of a few. In the past Israeli leaders have been prudent enough to maintain plausible deniability on this point. You blow up Gaza's power plant, burn their crops, threaten to depopulate cities, and loudly announce that your intent is collective punishment - It sounds like you want to stand in the dock at the Hague.

whew, I've heard plenty of revisionism in my time but you take it further than I've ever seen it before. "if the Zionists hadn`t declared the formation of a `Jewish State`, Palestine could have had a chance to develop into a state where no-one was favoured."-Jo Of course the Jewish State of Israel was created, exactly as the organizing bodies of the time envisioned it. You on the other hand envision a middle-east without the jewish state of Israel in it, an opinion shared by the arabs and other arabists. Had the combined arab armies been successful when they attacked in '48 what would have happened to "occupied Israel"? What do you think should have happened to her?

I know that he has an agenda. I know that he will not stop. That is all the more reason to make sure that he has an opposition.

-"1, It is not possible to have a hudna when only one part of one party decides upon it."- Even a blind hen will find a corn from time to time. Well done Cipora Julianna Kohn, you found one. The Hamas hudna was kept even when Israel massacre the family on that sad Gaza beach, it was kept even after the IAF fired at children and medic killing them but then they started to shoot pregnant women in thier homes, then not even the Iz-al Qassam boys could just stand by and do nothing to protect their women and children daily targeted by the "most moral army in the world". So they went on a daring pre-dawn guerilla attack against the IDF and captured a soldier, lost three of their own and inflicting two casualties on the other side. Since then not a single Palestinian women or child has been killed by the IDF.

Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, and Saudi Arabia were not colonized. The people were helped to develop nations, along European lines. The people of Palestine were led to believe that the Husayn-McMahon Correspondence applied to them too, but at the same time, the Balfour Declaration was being drawn up in order to create a 'Jewish national home'. The Arabs of Palestine *were* naive when it came to European style politics. I'm not in any way saying they were less intelligent than anyone else (though Israeli Jews often infer that they are). What, are you saying that they knew what England/USA/Zionists had in mind and let it happen? Of course not. They were tricked, and that's why they are now angry. Wouldn't *you* be? re: 1948 war, if the Zionists hadn't declared the formation of a 'Jewish State', Palestine could have had a chance to develop into a state where no-one was favoured. But the Palestinian Jews had already pissed off everyone else by this point. History repeating itself...

How can Haaretz and Gideon Levy not get it? For almost a year Arabs in Gaza have chosen bombing civilian sites in Israel, a clear war crime. Only recently Israel has been responding to the War started by the Arabs.

Using Gideon Levy's logic was it right for the Allied forcrs to bomb Germany or Japan?

Israel should not bother rescuing them.

It should be clear to all that had the Palestinians adopted Gandhi's way of nonviolent resistance, they would have had a state long ago. The West's morality, and Israeli morality, would have been disturbed by the sight of Pals being beaten by police, and public pressure to "disengage" would have been enormous. Islamic culture, however, does not lend itself to this type of resistance and the conflict continues. But where are we today? Israel is using OVERWHELMING force. It fires missiles, destroys the only power plant in Gaza, destroys infrastructure. The Palestinians just submit to the pain (and keep holding the soldier, a minor type of agression). The visible effect of this relation between the stron and the weak is similar to that in the Gandhi campaign. The ratio is the "same", even though the amount of weaponry applied is different. You get a similar effect on public opinion. Israel better bring this to a quick end if it does not want the Palestinians to be the 'indians'.

What has happened is that Olmert has locked up many of the heads of the political wing of Hamas without harming - and leaving unrestrained - the militant wing. Having shot himself in the left foot (Gaza) he is threatening to shoot himself in the right foot (West Bank). Maschal must be grinning from ear to ear. Expect militant wing Head(s) to bite soon.

as long as u never have good neighbors, u will never ever have peace. I think not even a single day.

Sorry bbl, I took your original comment too far. Of course my own point is that we watch ourselves when we call the kettle black. Or resort to anything to maintain a position that turns out questionable. I don't know if you are aware that they found in Iraq some 20 year old degraded chemical weapons and now the diehards are making a bit issue of it even in Congress. Anyway, sorry for misunderstanding and misrepresenting your position.

Lebanon,Iraq,Jordan,Syria, Saudi Arabia and Israel were created on or about the same time by the same organizations. Considering the regimes that exist in each of the arab countries is it fair to say that had the people there been militarily and politically strong that different countries would have emerged in them? There was one Jewish state created that appears to bother you, a state that appears to bother her surrounding neighbours as well. BTW after the '48 war when the combined arab armies attacked Israel, why did gaza go to Egypt and the west bank go to Jordan? Had the combined arab armies won, what would have happened to "occupied Israel"? Arabs are not fools, nor are they politically naive, you are rather condescending to assume they didn't know what was going on, or what their goals were when they attacked Israel.

Dear Cipora Julianna Kohn, Well said. But, "Ben Gurion" (who in reality is Salah from the town of Lod)has an agenda to spread. No matter what you say and how you say it, he must go on. He gets paid.

Hamas did not sign the Geneva Convention nor, based on their historic behavior, be likly ever to sign and adhere to the rules.

Mendel wonders if Israeli avocado is Kosher. Mendel is not a bad Jew - not perfect, but .... somehow Mendel wonders about this food. Mendel should ask Rabbi - if avocado grown on stolen land by people who murder real farmers, is Kosher to eat this bitter fruit ? These people pretend G_d told them to do this, said was permitted. Does affect the fruit ? Mendel wonders ..... so will ask Rabbi.

Nice job Dutch. You agreed with me (against your previous post) and tried to make it look like it was you who was correct. It's called short term memory loss.

For those who do not want Israel to exist I say, move to Gaza or Egypt, or Iran, or Iraq, or, I think my message is understood. Jews who do not want to live in a Jewish State should move, change their religion and accept Islam. Blood was shed to force the world to acknowledge Israel and we must do everything to ensure it is not once again swept from the world atlas. Let us not give into temptation as we walk through the valley of death. No Arab county wants the people living in Gaza. Moreover, is there a reason for that? Could the Arabs know something about those people that the weak-kneed do not want to be known? Why is it that Jordan will not accept those people? How about Egypt or Syria; why is it that the Arab world is not more willing to support their “fellow ‘Arab’”s? Palestine is a word the British invented after WWI when they were re-writing the world atlas.

Hmmmm....Palestinians invade Israel and kidnap a soldier and Israel should just cave in? If this was any other country anywhere else in the world a massive force to regain this soldier would be tolerated but ofcourse this is more world propaganda against Israel ........@#!$ HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To say "Israel's actions in Gaza no different to those of a terror group" is wrong. We know you know; but hey, take the $$$ anyway, will you?

I don't agree with you JL. Quite the opposite, Levy strikes me as an idealist, who demands that Jews must be "a light unto the nations". My chief point of contention with Levy is that he does not offer any solutions himself, instead smugly pointing the finger at the government and military, wrapping himself all the while in self-righteous indignation. We have yet to hear Levy's "moral" solution to the present dilemma, and I am not talking general principles here, but a credible program that can bring about a peaceful settlement. -B-

Larry, you forget or ignore the fact that the kidnapping (or capture) of the Israeli soldier followed a series of Israeli attacks resulting in the lives of at least 24 Palestinian civilians including a number of children; this as Israeli typical over-reaction to some Quassam rockets that killed nobody and virtually did little physical harm. True, violence begets violence, but as the overall disproportion of dead Palestinians to Israelis shows, we don't have here a Biblical "eye for AN eye" but an intentional Israeli effort to show its superior muscle. And that policy -- for decades -- hasn't worked to bring about peace, quite the contrary. And, despite that show of force, because of it, the tunnel killing and capture of Israeli soldiers demonstrated to IDF's chagrin that no wall, no force will make Israel safe from future attacks. There, in my view, is the crux of it. Levy is right, the Israeli reaction is a sign of recognized Israeli weakness and failed policies.

Same here. I must say it seems that my "best" posts (obviously in my opinion) are either winding up on the cutting floor or lost in cyberspace quite often this week.

Was there an opportunity to stop the bomb? Or did the Jewish underground unwisely expect their warning to be sufficient and not have a way to undo what was done? Waht additional information do you have about this incident?

This is a great forum for the World to see whats really going on in the Middle East. Seems Israel likes to hide behind the walls of silence. They spread lies trying to make the Palesitinians to move off the land if they don't move they make life miserable for them. Locking people and children up without charges or contact with the outside. They now do as was done to the Jews of Europe, but its the Arabs that pay, as the Jews of Europe did. The Abused has turned into the Abuser. End the Occupation Now Boycott Israel as we Boycotted South Africa Just say NO to Apartheid

1, It is not possible to have a hudna when only one part of one party decides upon it. 2, Qassams were developed by Hamas with the aid of hizbollah. They are manufactured in Gaza. Hamas lends a few hundred rockets to Islamic Jihad. The division of labour is perfect. 3, If rockets are being fired from an enemy territory, it is irrelevant what the name of the group doing the firing is. The duly elected government is responsible for security within the territory. 4, If a duly elected government decides to name a wanted terrorist as its security chief, that government takes the risk of being seen as obstinately provacative and illegitimate. 5, Terrorising innocent civilians with rockets is an intolerable situation. 6, Entering a sovereign state's territory, killing that state's soldiers, and kidnapping a third, is a grave violation of international law.

I say "Give Peace A Chance.." The Palestinains fought a battel and won the capture of an Israeli tank gunner. The Israeli soldier was not on a picnic. He was there in his tank shooting indiscriminately at populated Palestinain areas. The Israeli government negotiated with Hizballah before, why can not do the same with the Palestinians? The plight of Palestinans is only aggrevated because there is no just peace!

.. an ANGRY Doris, the Bush hater! Same lingo!

I didn't claim you didn't know your history. You indicated that you understand that the King David Hotel/British base bombing was not a clear cut case of terrorism against civilians. I was agreeeing that the history is clouded. Additionally, I included information that is often left out. I did this so others could also evaluate, for themselves, the nature of the act. If I remind you of someone who thinks that there were ever WMD's in Iraq, you need to read more carefully. I believe facts are relevant. THere are no facts to support the WMD claim. I have never supported anything that the current American Administration has done. The war on Iraq was a disaster and a crime before it even started. However, I wouldn't make comparisons between that war and the (past and) current difficulties that Israel endures.

Gideon Levy, Ben Gurion and Co. are very narrow minded people. As someone said before, they love to see their name on the internet. They wake up in the morning make a cup of coffee and start typing. They keep typing garbage all day long in a hope that it will be posted. It's a form of masturbation of their persona. They get up to visit the WC (which in there mind is their good friend Mr. Winston Churchill). Most likely by now they forgot what their wife looks like and how many children they used to have. If we say "YES" to this people, perhaps they will go away. But, what if they won't

By the way- I agree wholeheartedly with M. Lincoln's analyses. Several months ago , during the Israeli pre election campaign period and during the process of cobbling together a coalition I wrote that Peretz and labor were better off remaining in the opposition rather than joining a quasi Likud party and its leader. Ben Gurion's attempt to separate Peretz and Olmert just won't wash. Olmert led Kadima is no different than Sharon led Likud, perhaps worse, and Peretz who did not want to be a defense minister to begin with has demonstrated why. Going along with Olmert and the IDF crowd does not exonarate him one bit and he bears as much resposibility as the PM for the senseless adventure in Gaza. In the next elections, the Israeli electorate will have to choose between 2 stark options- between a party which unambiguously espouses a withdrawal to the 1967 bordes and a lunatic right wing party which condones self destruction.

I like this idea Exchange Gideon Levy (an enemy of the jewish people) for Gilad Shalit (our soldier)

Nice job Dutch. You agreed with me (against your previous post) and tried to make it look like it was you who was correct. UN 242 does not say "the territories" as you first wrote (and about which I responded). UN 242 calls for "from territories occupied in the recent conflict" No "the". The rest of my post was about why there is no "the" there and about how everybody understood why it wasn't there. Additionally, I vindicated nothing regarding the King David Hotel. Murder is bad, regardless of the ethnicity of the victim. It would be nice to hear that from you someday. What I wrote about is that the building was not a hotel at the time, it was a base of an occupying army (the British). Folks on these talkbacks often have such a poor grasp of history, that I thought it was worth mentioning. Most of what I posted came from Wikipedia. I find it strange that you consider a repetition of estabished facts to be "attempts to vindicate..." It is what it is.

If you use logic, you at least know where you want to go and even how to get there. Don't worry about the "Arab" charge. It is now adopted by S, the simpleton who would accept anything you tell him, regardless of who is saying it. Today he adopts both Gabe1 and FOX "deductions". Too bad these two cannot deduce anything without the capacitiy to reason. "You can get an asS to drink, but you can't make it think" - Charlie the Tuna

Dear Editor, Good job! Keep loosing the stuff submited by that moron. He runs a gaming show on your site. Please ask him for his real ID. Our Search Showes: MORON 123 BASIC

Sedona, Arizona is a national treasure that under any normal circumstances should have been a National Park, but was bought up by filthy rich millionaires with money to burn and, in your case, nothing better to do with her time than make evil and wicked lies about Israel. Israel is the only country I know of that specifically would not allow the concept of American soldiers dying for Israel's sake, while offering its soldiers for America's wars. Example: Ben Gurion offered 100,000 Israeli soldiers to fight for the Americans in Korea despite the fact that at the time Israel did not view Communism as an exitential enemy to fight against.

Politicians and the military are interwoven in Israel in a way unlike any other nation on Earth. That is because of necessity rather than ideaology. A country that as a matter of survival fosters a military ideology, such is Israel. Who perpetrated this mentality?? The very "opressed people" that whose leaders are bent on its destruction. Arresting terrorists for interrogation and to prevent further attacks is a far cry from kidnapping a soldier to be used to free known murderers. Anyone who can't see that point shouldn't be commenting in a political forum. Violence begets violence and principles can diminish out of frustration and lack of solutions.

You said murder. I was pointing out there have been no deaths so far in this military operation. As for Palestinians deaths being 3 times as great as the Israelis in the whole of the conflict since Sept. 2000. : It is only because the Israelis are better at protecting themselves. It it estimated that for every Palestinian attack that has succeeded, ten have been stopped. The Israelis made it clear a long time ago that, if pushed, they will not choose to die quietly so that the world community will say nice things about them. Perhaps firing 900 rockets from Gaza into Israel (since January alone) is a poor strategy for the Palestinians. It's lunacy for the Palestinians to rely on Israeli good will towards them. They should assume that their adversaries are powerful ruthless, and make their plans accordingly. Unfortunately, the Palestinian leadership appears to not care about what happens to the Palestinian civilians. Collective punishment serves their own purposes.

Why bother posting in here when it's being selectively censored? I've lost innocent posts as well, but have seen plenty with filthy language make it through. You know what that's all about, right? "The first casualty in any war is TRUTH." Do you honestly feel there's room for truth amongst all the hate floating around in here that Haaretz seems to relish?

3. "Many Palestinian civilians get killed in intensive IAF/IDF fire in reply to Qassams" - BG "Are you making up your own "news"? What are "many" on your page?" - GS As you may have been told by your teachers, 'many' is a relative term, depending on the situation. If 20% of your graduating class had a hard time with logic, this might be 'many'. If 1%, it might be 'few'. In the recent civilian death, compare the no. of civilian killed to no. of militants killed. Get a sense of 'many'. 4. (aka 5. by GS) "Get the snake by the head!" - GS This you write in response to my factualy citing of recent Hamas politicians' arrest. No logical problem for me, but one for you. As we all know, the legislators did not commit new crimes, and their arrest appears to be "hostage" taking. The snake's head image is simply irrelevant here. There is no danger in the arrest. I hope once is enough, Giora. The time spent on you is "expensive" compared to WHAT? Also a relative term. Compared to reading

Hamas has formally stated they don't want peace alongside Israel. The only result can ultimately be military conflict, as Israel is not going to willingly obliterate itself. Well, Hamas wanted war... they have what they asked for.

Its hard to face reality. Its hard to own up to mistakes especially when you are the leaders of a country. Perhaps it is that as the "Chosen people" Israel is held to very very high standards. Unfortunately in battle ones tactics cannot always be civil or lawful. We strive to be above the criminality and unlawfulness of the other side, but circumstances don't allow that to be the case. From its first roots the Palestinians Liberation Organization has been dedicated to the destruction of Israel. While Arafat "renounced" terror with one hand, he fully supported it with the other. Israel is held accountable for its kidnapping of suspects, and the tit for tat of the entire conflict puts it in a very bad light in world opinion. Part 2

... I'm Irish. I'm in NY on business (not that it's any of your business) You're right, Europeans *have* exploited the naivety of many people around the world. Does the fact that they have mean that it's okay for people to still do it? A one state solution, with equal rights for all, is the only thing that would be fair in Palestine. If you are concerned that the Muslim majority might harass the Jews (due to decades of abuse), well, maybe they're not like Jewish Israelis.

Note that I did not say British Mandate Palestine, but what was left of it, referred to as Palestine, since Trans-Jordan was already a state as of May 25,1946.In other words, the part that was at issue at the time of Israel's creation. I never said Israel started the 67 war, only that they invaded and occupied what was remaining of Palestine. My post was ironic, I have debated this issue many times. My point was that this occupation, regardless of the original reasons for it,has brought nothing but trouble for Israel, and after all these years, Israel may only end up with 10% of the 10%,at most. In that sense, it has been an immense failure for Israel in lives lost, money down the drain, and its status and reputation in the world.(like our Iraq) The Military has too much influence in the power structure of Israel.Exerting military force in this way may be ego-boosting for the generals,but it's been a disaster for Israel all along.

750,000 people for electricit.IF the 750,000 arabs would be the same foe GILAD SHALIT'T freedom than the so called black flag woud go down.

That person is Mr, Verbage who's therapist told to do something about changing his attitude in order to get some respect. He looked up the internet and found the name BEN GURION from Sde Boker adapted it and now, his old self is between him and respect. He needs some PROZAK and he may get back to reality which may be GOLDA...

You are correct, an infiltrator is in our midst. Too bad. Obviously this new BenGurion is against those in favor and in favor of those against. Hope he is nothing more than a nuisance and not becomes a true security threat.

My big concern at this time is that this whole scenario is playing very badly across the world. People who tended to blame Hamas for the failure to progress, are beginning to see Israel - once again - as the fault. By announcing that the Palestinian people are suffering for Hamas Olmert has made a very foolish statement. We both know that there is a fine line and I think he has crossed it. So far I have seen no benefit for Israel in anything which has happened and much benefit for Hamas. Any strategy or tactic which hurts oneself and helps one's enemy is a foolish thing to use.

The Zionist takeover of Palestine is another example of the wealthy colonizing the land of poor. People *did* live in the area known as Palestine, and if they had been militarily and politically strong, they would have resisted the colonization. But their naivety in European-style politics meant they were easy to fool. If someone is naive, you don't take advantage of them, you help them, and in return, you will probably be appreciated. (don't you?) The majority of the people in the world will continue to detest Israel because its actions are the actions of a pompous bully. You would have to have a heart of stone not to pity the Palestinians. BTW, the Palestinians Arabs were promised independence in the Husayn-McMahon Correspondence of 1916, for their part in the Arab revolt, which was instrumental in the defeat of the Hitler-aligned Turks.

"With a better treatment of Abbas, showing the Pals he was relevant, Abbas could have won." - Ben Gurion This was a mutual concern at the time. "Mantra: no partner." - Ben Gurion Mantra, or self-fulfilling excuse?

Exchange Gideon Levy for Gilad Shavit What a wonderful idea Lets do it NOW

Why don't you just pick up a gun and start shooting at Israeli Gideon? It seems you hate us as much as Hamas.

Not to use the over abused metaphor, but sometimes war is forced upon you and you have no choice to fight. Much like most of Europe in WWII. The Hamas (the official Palestinian government), and other military palestinian groups declared goal is the destruction of Israel. They used to bomb us in our cities, when they could. The lob missles into Israel, they attacked the outpost, killing two soldiers and kidnapping a third. And this is after Israel left Gaza and didn't want to return. Whether there are winners in war or not, you can decide. I believe there are, but there's a horrific price. But unfortunately, Israel doesn't have a choice, much like we haven't since we were founded. We fight because we have to, regardless of what you think. Nobody here wants to send their children to war, yet everybody has to. We have no choice. They don't want us here, and we're not going anywhere.

I am not a bigot,speaking against Jewish crimes doesn't mean you are a bigot,but if that sastifies your narrow minded brain,please call me a bigot. I agree to defending yourself,but if standing up means collective punishment,wiping out a family on beach,emptying you weapon on 13 year old and getting rewarded for it,if means cutting power supply from hunderd of thousands of people,firing missiles in a crowded street and killing several innocent people. If standing up means creating a large prison,building big fences and caging people in like animals,killing people without a court prededing,the separation of familes,terrorizing innocent people.

Howdy Ladies and Gentlemen; Does Gideon Levy's reference to "a black flag" have something to do with the "Black Flag Decision" of the Israeli High Court? Does anyone remember what that case was about? I seem to recollect that it had something to do about Israeli soldiers committing atrocities. Black flags are generally associated with anarchists. One other thing: how can a black flag get darker unless it was only gray to begin with?

white bread faces should go back to where they came from. to russia. the have never lived in palastine and occupied land with british support.

I know several NATIVE AMERICANS - displaced by AMERICAN IMPERIALISM Why not give them your home

Once again we have a situation that doesn't leave us with the possibility for a painless solution. We can harp on whether the Israeli move was an over-reaction or not, my personal opinion is that sayeret should have been sent to do the job and keep the fire-works down. That's neither here nor there actually, but the arab reaction to it is very important in that it's more of the same and Israel doesn't get it. A sensible response by the arabs is to just return the lad. The arabs have proven over time that they won't take the sensible course, they have a total disregard for the population and have no problem watching the suffering if there is any possibility at all of making political hay out of it. It's the age-old policy of entanglement standing front and centre as usual. Israel has choices in every interaction with the arabs, and the one she is afraid to make is the one she needs to make. We need separation from these people.

So far today, I have lost two posts replying to G. Sedman (part II of #232, attempted twice), and two separate posts to Mark Lincoln. In addition, I have lost two posts on the next forum (PM hints). Why have they been censored? No clue. I don't feel like posting when there is a 50-50 chance the posts will end up on the cutting floor.

What an absolute load of crap you just wrote!

You may be a kibbutznik after all, one with a lot of bravado and no real substence, who knows better than the Generals, Doctors and Lawyers all over the world. And you may ask: how do I now it? Well, you just posted the message telling everybody that you've all these special talents. The only thing that worry me about you is that you are the type that may subscribe medication to yourself. If that is the case, you may want to lower the dose. Don't waste your "expensive" time to answer this.