Want your adopted son to become Jewish? Act Orthodox

uh well some where down the line if you want a "jewish state" for all jews we need an explicit written explanation of who is and is not a jew so either its a buricrat in tel aviv or the sanhedrin. it has to be one of them, but then again discusing politics when creating a state out of nothing seems kind of point less just cheer for democracy!

uh well some where down the line if you want a "jewish state" for all jews we need an explicit written explanation of who is and is not a jew so either its a buricrat in tel aviv or the sanhedrin. it has to be one of them, but then again discusing politics when creating a state out of nothing seems kind of point less just cheer for democracy!

Perhaps they could have adopted babies in Israel? I am sure there are teenage moms-to-be who are willing to give up their baby at a young age. I know an Israeli couple who adopted a baby girl from Brasil, paid a lot of money, got false certificates and the girl lives a happy - Jewish - life. With boys it is more difficult as they need the proof on their body, a circumsized pivate part. Seperate church and state. Raise the boys according to your own Jewish values and pray that the future of Israel will be less religious in matters as marriage, where you need to proof that you are a Jew. Why should a marriage under the chupa only be recognized in Israel, a registered marriage should be introduced. So children of foreign workers could marry too. This article shows that honesty is not rewarded, lying would be the best. Now that is a (Jewish) value one cannot be proud of.

enough said. Let Druckman and his minyan think what they will. these are the same guys who arrest women who wear talitot at the kotel.

It's hard to understand how a secular bright and inteligent society, in Israel as in Germany, could let themselves in the hands of such leaders that are able to pervert everything that is more dear to jewish history, which is not the same as the halacha, and is: very essense of the right to think and to follow ones ideas, without having, for that, to lieve the mainstream of jewish community. Ultra-Orthodoxy want you to be like them, and don't care about your believes. They are the Romans putting their gods in our temple, violating our women and daughters, our conscious, dissacrating OUR religion, in the name of theirs. But as in Hannuka, they could only do that while WE allowed to do it. And that will be the same with the ultra-orthodox. They are not jews as the rest of the jewish people. They themselves don't think they are. Why should we? Too much power for the wrong people. Let's officialize other more respectful streams of judaism. Someother kind of orthodoxy - of meinsch.

Consider this--the Immigration and Naturalization Services, or whatever the US Federal government calls it these days requires all prospective citizens of United States of America to know the history of the country, the presidents, the laws, stuff that most native born Americans learn in school, though, for some reason, if they were tested on the material they would do dismally. The tests are standardized, not Reform or Conservative, or even Secular. It's basic information that is regarded as vital to becoming an naturalized American citizen. It's obvious that Halacha is not as common among most Jews around the world, but it is the "standard" form of observance of Judaism. The natural born Jews who don't observe Halacha strictly, all are not required to "pass a test", but the rules determining Halachic observance have to be taught to these "new Jews", in the same way that people become Americans. Newly knowledgable, they can be what they want.

I'm Jewish, and I'm thankful that I live in the U.S. where I can observe my religion as I wish. The Haredi stranglehold on religious interpretation and observance is destroying Jewish life in Israel, except for fanatics. Move to America and be free.

OY Vey! How does this relate to all of the Non Abrahamic Ashkenazi leaders of Israel? They are not semites.

I find it disheartening that Israelis blindly allow the Government dictate that only Orthodox conversions, only Orthodox marriages are considered legitimate for being recognized as being Jewish. This is totally undemocratic and an unfair system that denies the other sects/branches of Judaism _Reformed, Secular even conservative are legitimate. That's unacceptable and frankly no different than the Islam taught by the Mullahs in Iran. You may have your extremism, but that doesn't change my heart and sole as being Jewish. Until you learn that lesson, you folks are no better than S'hia Muslims in Iran.

You can feel Jewish, but being Jewish is more than identity. It includes "Jewish status" or natinoality which can only happen when you convert. So, yes the rabbi has the authority,but other nonorthodox rabbis should too.When Israelis finnally wake up and restructure the tie of rabbiniate and state so people can convert through any rabbinical court we will have a Jewish state that reflects the feelings of the entire Jewish people.

Following the Jewish customs does not make anyone Jewish but you would not know it. Ignorance is bliss.

Israel may be a "Jewish" state according to its charter - but that does not mean that it has to be religious. Whether the rightist extremists like it or not, there are such people as non-religious Jews. For those people to have less rights than "observant" Jews is outrageous. In time, the non-religious Jews will get their act together and vote for a party that will terminate the stranglehold monopolies presently enjoyed by the extremists. The extremists will probably howl and scream "unfair" even though they will be treated equally with everyone else. Until then, people who face outrageous discrimination have a right to complain. More power to them.

Hanna, Since when is attendance in a Government Religious school in Israel, or a Hinuch Aztma'i aka Haredi, or any school with a Halachically Observant curriculum a guarantee that the child will adopt "that way of life". Some parents in Israel, and in the States who are not Halachically Observant send their children to schools that are pro forma Orthodox, or the curriculum is openly religious because of the academics, or the the discpline, or other reasons. Heck, some Jews send their children to posh private schools in the States that are church affiliated, at which students who are not Christian are excused from attending "Chapel", but otherwise are expected to take part in the rest of the life of the place. As well, Israeli Goverment schools are hardly what you imagine--even the best of them have lost the international rankings they had in earlier years. As well, there are discipline and violence issues that have popped up that you don't want to know.

This deeply offends me. My brother is a secular Jew. My adopted nephew had a bar mitzvah in a reform temple. He loves being Jewish (liberal variety, of course). How outrageous that he could not share his parents' religion if he lived in Israel! How outrageous that he would be made to feel inferior to his reform Jewish biological sister -- an outsider in his own family! I am more convinced than ever that the future of Judaism is in the United States. What educated, talented person would want to put up with the morally offensive culture that Israel has developed?

I adopted two, one boy and a girl,the rabbis did not object,now the boy is 5 years old and the princess 3 years old.infact no body knows about my babies.I have three sons of mine, but no body knows about it.

Rabbis can be as out of step (ignorant) as Catholic priests. Completely out of touch with daily life, and obstinate in pushing an agenda.

Ruth Wrote: "Everyone is getting their emotions,politics and religion mixed up. There has to be Jewish law implemented in becoming a Jew. The other streams of Judaism as practiced in America (where I come from) are watered down less comprehensive practices." Ruth - to you from me - I'm reform and there is NOTHING watered down about my faith or practise! I don't shave my head to get married or court men donning 15th Century Polish fashion. I don't teach my sons that all non-orthodox women are prostitutes. I don't stick my nose up at someone whose prepared a Kosher meal because they didn't use meat from the butcher who paid the rabbis more. I don't burn tires to protest everyone else's business. And I am a Jew. Proud. Strong. Hopeful and filled with faith.

This isn't a bunch of rabbis saying you must be orthodox to save your souls but they wouldn't be doing their job properly if they didn't ENCOURAGE jews to be more observant Israel is a jewish state and 1948 - present day if you want to convert to come live here then it must be a halachic conversion. Seculars might not like that but its a LAW & applies to everybody Different countries have different laws which sometimes seem unfair. If you want to emigrate to Saudi Arabia you can't say I am not a muslim so I should be allowed alcahol & woman can't complain she isn't allowed to wear a short skirt & bra top in the street Its all very nice that the woman decided she wanted to take in a child from Belarus but they would have also been informed in advance that in Israel this child will have to go through the conversion process and she was ok accepted that Now she has him she doesn't like this halachic conversion process because it doesnt suit her secular lifestyle so she says its not fair

These so called rabbis are offensive to the meaning and heart of the Jewish people. Converting adopted children is about identity - not orthodoxy. The Jewish identity is specific, unique and special. We carry the memories of millenia, the traditions of our forefathers, the belief in our state, our holidays, our way of life. Living a non-orthodox life is not the same as becoming a pagan. The Rabbis need to wake up and take their heads out of their back-ends.

Michael -- It seems you are thinking about this in a Christian context, which is very different than the Jewish one. Christians, as I understand it, see acceptance of Jesus as a gift they can and must confer on others, and traditionally assume non-Christians will go to Hell. Jews, on the other hand, view their religion as a responsibility as well as a gift. Just saying someone is Jewish does not grant them salvation because to Jews, observance of commandments is inseparable from faith. At the same time, Jews generally don't have as rigid an understanding of heaven and hell as do Christians.

My adopted son is now 50. He was circumcised at 3 weeks of age. He went to religious school and learned all the rituals. Like most American Jews he does not keep kosher nor is he observant. He considers himself to be Jewish as does everyone else including his boyhood rabbi who, thankfully, was not orthodox. If Israel's orthodox rabbis don't consider my son to be Jewish I really don't give a damn what they think. They should not be in the position of running anyone's life or telling anyone how they should live. Who nominated them? Only they did.

It has nothing at all to do with race but rather is pragmatic. If you have open conversion laws, it becomes very easy for people to convert in name only. Since Judaism is a religion prefaced on observance, it would amount to cultural suicide to completely relax these standards. Also keep in mind that these laws were developed before there was such a concept as "Orthodox" or "Reform," let alone secular Jews. If you were Jewish centuries ago, born or converted, you would be subject to strict Halachic authorities, so there would not have been the hypocrisy we see today with there being such a higher standard for those who choose to be Jewish. Finally, I have to say I wish other religions "loved" converts a little less. That sort of "love" led to crusades, inquisitions, and conquests of native peoples.

"OK, but what about non-Jews? Does the rabbis` God not care what they do, or how they act? What do the rabbis think happens to Christians and Muslims after they die?" Is your question why are the Rabbis only worried about the souls of would-be Jewish converts but not non-Jews? In any event, it's extremely dangerous to worry about the souls of those that aren't in your religious movement or are interested in joining your religious movement lest it lead to deplorable actions. The Rabbis would tell you it's a lot easier to get into heaven as a non-Jew then as a Jew and this is why it's hard to have an Orthodox Conversion. But all three are judged based on their actions.

According to a item posted by Or Kashti, Bible study in Israel Government grammar schools has lost its priorty in the eyes of the school administration and the students alike. Can Jewish, or, the history of the Land of Israel be far behind. Is this the school where the young person who is expected to become a Jew in the Land of Israel? Generally speaking the Government Religious schools and Hinuch Atzmai tend to promote Jewish values as a basic element in their curriculum. That doesn't mean that the child will leave the school more religious, but at least the kid will be more knowledgable about his heritage, as a Jew in this land. Other than that, considering the level of violence and drugs in Government schools,not to mention the "academic level" they encounter, well, . . . there are parents who often defer to Government religious schools because they are less "imperfect" than the Government school around the corner.

Michael, come on. So what if many born Jews do not keep the commandments. We should still deny converts who don't want to keep Jewish law. It's the same as naturalizing citizens. The fact that a country has lawbreakers among its born citizens does not obligate them to accept criminals and robbers as new immigrants! Keeping the mitzvahs is the easiest way to live a happy life. Just ask Tiger Woods how easy his way is turning out...

...a child is automaticly a jew,too? What is the freedom of religion of this child ( a basic principle of the human rights)? He/she might be very secular and still a jew?

you have been attending the site but you have not been listening.there is no jewish race.we are european jews arab jews african jews indian jews and chinese jews.no race here.but a belief in the jewish faith.

Why do they want his son to be religously converted if they dont want for themselves or their children to live a religous life? There are plenty of options for those who prefer a secular life: Conservative, Progressive, Liberal and Reform conversion for instance. Or no conversion at all. When the kid grows up hopefully they will choose a religios life and convert himself.

were referring to Saudi Wahabi Sheiks, Observant is that the last thing you would think about!

When you convert to Judaism it is quite different than applying for US citizenship. Citizenship is secular while Judaism is religious. Each has its own rules and asking that children attend religious schools to have the required education to confirm their conversion when they come of age is perfectly reasonable. No child wants to change school because people fear change. Usually after a week or two children do adjust. I have been teaching for 39 years and have seen many children make all sorts of educational transitions.

If I didn't have first hand evidece I might be fooled by the Left. I have in my home an Israeli young man educated in Israeli secular schools. He goes to work on Yom Kippur and eats every form of pork. His grandparents were Satmar Chasidim in pre-war Europe. If he is what Israeli secular schools produce, I fully support the rabbis in demanding child converts attend mainstream religious schools.

The rabbi is right, the parents are right too. They just mean something entirely different. In normal states this would be a non problem, but cannot the state make a civil office with a modern (read secular) rabbi where parents can register there children as "secular jew"?

"I`d say the Rabbis are afraid of accepting a convert to Judaism and then watching that person not do the appropriate commandments. If so, they may feel that they`re responsible for a person suffering divine punishment after they pass away" OK,but what about non-Jews? Does the rabbis' God not care what they do, or how they act? What do the rabbis think happens to Christians and Muslims after they die?

"What`s Judaism afraid of?" I'd say the Rabbis are afraid of accepting a convert to Judaism and then watching that person not do the appropriate commandments. If so, they may feel that they're responsible for a person suffering divine punishment after they pass away. They may be uncomfortable with this concept.

And you hit the nail on the head. It is a country sized synagogue. If you are not willing to live by the law of the land, you shouldn't apply to be a member.

Converting to Judaism without following the laws of Judaism is invalid. If the parents who are not religious themselves send a child to secular school how he would learn to observe Torah u'Mitzvot?

The fact that you are not orthodox does not make the heredim backward because they believe something different to you. All conversion in Israel the law says must be in a halachic conversion ( based on Torah rules not the more modern attitudes to religion like reform ) Seperate religion and state then there is no reason for Israels continued existence. May as well close the doors hand the country over to the arabs then there will be real peace because there will be no more jewish state for the arabs to object to. Its the idea of a jewish state which has been the crux of the problem since before 1948 - present day. The arabs believe there is no place for a jewish state in the Middle East especially not the Holy Land so they have been fighting for its destuction. So do we end the idea of a jewish state and the need for Israel to exist or accept it as a jewish state & as a result there will always be times when religion & secular lifestyle will clash? Sometimes life doesn't seem fair

How déja vu! I adopted 2 children, in my country there is no Mikva for converted so had a choice to try to convert my kids in Israel or France. it actually took me 5 years to do it. And Rav Avior had the same reactions as written in this article. I come from a a religious/traditional background, jewish school, Kosher home etc...and the kids go to a secular jewish school: his reactions were: 1. The school is not religious 2. You're not religious 3. They will not be religious 4. We will not give you the conversion The I went to Paris, and the Rabbis there asked me to convert too!!!! It made me laugh! Then friends told me , if you pay this amount or that amount , in Israel, Marocco etc..you will get conversion but, I always refused to go that road, I kept on going back to Avior for 4 years after till out of the blues got a call and was told I could have the kids converted. It took 3 minutes to do it but since then am a complete cynical on the subject.It's just disgusting but very real.

Only love gives meaning to life. Religion may provide a deluded sense of comfort but it brings you no closer to self knowledge.

the overwhelming population of jews in israel and abroad are not Orthodox or Secular!! they do not live a superstitious, backward lifestyle that cultish Haredim maintain! This couple is 100% Jewish and their first adopted son is now 100% jewish- why can't they convert their newly adopted child?! The rabbinical courts here should be disenfranchised and separation of religion and state needs to happen NOW! before these cultists become even more influential!! And why can't a Jew go to a public school in ISRAEL and maintain even superstitious Orthodox observance? I knew Ortho Jews in NY public schools surrounded by non-Jews who were just fine!!

Giving the Orthodox a say in matters religious made them happy and kept them from getting in the way of the problems of waging the War of Independence and building a nation. The problem no one could foresee over half a century ago was that while religious extremism was fading then, it is prospering now.

Religion is not a terrible thing, so the kid will go to an orthodox school and at home they might be treated more secular. Maybe it will even be good for the child who will allow him to see both sides of life and be in a better position to decide for themselves what path they want to take. The fact the parents are secular or the mother has friends who don't believe in God doesnt mattert its the law & you dont have to like it or think its fair just obay In some countries there are catholic schools where non catholics will be taught about all the things the catholic faith believes & church law applies & parents & chidren accept that. After school they can choose how they want to live their lives. Stop treating religion like something to hide because its shameful. Israel is a jewish state & when it comes to things like this jewish law applies its not personal Whats the point of having a national religion if we are going to ban all religious laws?

Everyone is getting their emotions,politics and religion mixed up. There has to be Jewish law implemented in becoming a Jew. The other streams of Judaism as practiced in America (where I come from) are watered down less comprehensive practices. Although my parents raised me in a kosher, shomer shabat Jewish home,went to Hebrew school, had a Bat Mitzva, when I became of age I chose to go for an orthodox conversion so there would be no questions Halachically, as my parents raised me primarily conservative. Nothing about it hurt me, no Rabbis coerced me. I learned more about our great traditions and it only enhanced my life. I wear pants and look like a regular Israeli/American- No one says you have to be Haredi, but there are some things that must be kept. This is true for any religion. Here in Israel, it's such raw subject-I wish that were different.

"the pursuit of material gain in exclusion to all else is sheer futility." Yes, the way these rabbis and other religious people act is despicable.

...what has been written in the Declaration of the Independence of Israel and even less, what the Declaration of the Human Rights (article 2) says ..." will quarantee the freedom of conscience,worship,education and culture and willdedict itself to the principles of the charter of UN.

How on earth are you meant to keep all the commandments (as someone has stated) when there is no altar and therefore the house of Yisrael has no atonment for sins, since innocent blood cannot be shed? there is one Rabbi and he is Adonai, no man has authority over anyone. Read Tanakh not the Talmud.

All the couple had to go was offer more money to the Rabbi and the Rabbi would do the conversion as this is how the religious authorities work in Israel and abroad. You want kashrut, Pay, you want a get, pay, and you will pay and pay more as long as they can milk you. They find all kind of reasons and excuses as to make obstacles so they can line their pockets. These are Rabbis? and to make it like all secular Jews eat pork at home and pray to idles is not only ignorant but belittling. Why dress like your a Pole from the 17th century and what does that have to do with the torah or Judaism? Please this Rabbi has no right to convert anyone and only Hashem can truly say or who is a Jew or not.

"You are Jewish if your mother is Jewish, whether or not you are atheist. You can also convert according to Jewish law, which means accepting all the commandments, something unlikely to happen if you are in public school. He can even convert when he is older. This couple can lovingly and generously adopt a non-Jewish kid and raise him as a non-Jew." Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you Judith? If you're born a Jew, it doesn't matter what you believe or do, you're still a Jew. But if you want to convert you have to be like a super-religious Jew in observing every available commandment. Why make it so difficult to become a Jew? What's so special about it? Most religions love converts. What's Judaism afraid of? Diluting the Jewish bloodline? Is it all about race really?

was an atheist in his youth.he went into a church and thereafter never stopped again.he said "it felt right" he also said that religious belief is not necessarily an intellectual issue.we humans have deeper spiritual dimensions.

does not mean deciding who is jewish - ie obliged to lead a committed jewish life - or who may receive rabbinic approval for the kashrut of his shop. Coercion means forcing people to do things they are not obliged to do. If you want to join my football club, you'd jolly well better learn to play football. I don't care how good you are at basketball. If the state wants to invent some sort of 'israeli-ness' to pander to those who serve in the army and pay taxes, go ahead and do it. In fact they already have: it's called an israeli.

From the article: "The rabbis told me, 'at home you can pray to a statue and eat pork; the child has to go to a religious school," Nira said. The headline: Want your adopted son to become Jewish? Act Orthodox

when it comes to Jewish issues, it is not the knesset or a non-religious minister who deems what a Jew is and is not. the religious rabbis who follow halacha do. There is a simple chain that requires certain commitments which if a family cannot make, then they cannot bring new entries into the system. It has far reaching affects on our future, but some parents only experience the 'today'. Perhaps these parents wanting to adopt should read the writing on the wall and in the scroll- and try something more beneficial that tv, designer clothes,& materialism. to all those who criticize halacha, pretending to be dumb and letting anything happen for momentary happiness is shortchanging Jewry's mission in this world from Sinai to today. Your standards may have slipped over the last 50-100 years, but Jewry will be maintained by those who are traditional (orthodox) and who will safeguard the ORIGINAL BRIS AT SINAI.

we lead empty lives without our beliefs.the pursuit of material gain in exclusion to all else is sheer futility.

In the days when Mapam and the Kibbutz Artzi were absorping immigrants, some of them who came without their parents, some of them before their parents, young people who came from Traditional families from North Africa there was a "plan" to turn them them into Secularists, to make sure they "adopted" the ways of this New Land. They trained counselors to tell the young people that . . . in order that they would shed the Traditions. If, God Forbid, they refused to work on a "Gius" on Shabbat to save the crops it was regarded as some kind of infraction of Israeliness, as it were. Keeping kosher, well, that had to go as well. A Jew ought to know "something", even if he or she opts not to observe as much as the Halachic Jews would prefer. What's wrong with learning to say "Shma Yisrael . . .". Even Bialik used it in his attempt to offer a national anthem. I guess, more people imagine that being Jewish in this nations is "L'hiyot Am Khofshi . . ." is enough.

for many and this is reason that those of Jewish ancestry do not even go there. If you want to live in a traditional manner, but not orthodox, conversion it is an ordeal and you have to lie or forget it, many choose to forget it, be true to themselves and are lost to the "Jewish" fold even though they live and act as Jews and have Jewish ancestors, fathers, grandparents. The demands of the orthodox are unfair to those- I understand conversion for a non Jew should be about religious belief and commitment but for those who are part of Israel yet not, it is a sad thing. I have heard and seen enough stories to be frustrated and saddened for them.

We all close our eyes to the fact that we are living in a theocracy, and in fact controlled by the Hahedim!

Unfortunately, sometimes, being a Jew is very, very important. It's not just a social club, that if it turns someone away it's really very unfair. No. Being a Jew brings with it obligations and responsibilities that define what a Jew is. Loads of people do it. And it makes their lives more meaningful than they could ever be out of any mountain of television sets and new cars and great novels...

They want to have a Jewish life. This doesn't mean orthodox life. The orthodox rabbis in Israel have a shameful monopoly on conversion. It's easy in Montreal or N.Y. to go to a conservative rabbi and convert, but in Israel that's not possible. The big problem is not that the orthodox maintain a high profile for conversion, but that with political coercion they don't permit legal development of other types of jewishness.

I think the parents should ask themselves "why bother" do you really want your child brainwashed by a bunch of primative fanatical mullahs ? Stand up to religious coercion. They know their child is a gift from God , do they really need a kosher stamp from an outdated primiative institution.

These orthodox rabbis want budget money for their school system. This is corruption plain and simple. Why not just pay the rabbi directly for a conversion? Disgusting.

If you decide to go to the rabbi to accept him as a jew than accept what he said. Or make your own rules and do as you wish. What the rabbi is saying i think is simple. You want him to be jewish by the rabbi's word than send him to a jewish education and than if the child wants to become secular....it's his choice. I have to agree with the rabbi.

You are Jewish if your mother is Jewish, whether or not you are atheist. You can also convert according to Jewish law, which means accepting all the commandments, something unlikely to happen if you are in public school. He can even convert when he is older. This couple can lovingly and generously adopt a non-Jewish kid and raise him as a non-Jew. What's the fuss?

the day the religious hierarchy stops being funded by the state, and that the state stops transfering his responsibility to that hierarchy, thing will begin to be more just for the current and future citizens of israel, and even for jews in diaspora. this probably was ben gurion worst mistake to let those guys become a political force within the jewish state.

He has no authority